From Tom at solar-biz.com Wed Jan 1 11:54:36 2020 From: Tom at solar-biz.com (Tom Duffy) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:54:36 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems In-Reply-To: References: <2458818d-68ea-34df-9e71-5f72b7b23286@solarray.com> Message-ID: Agree! use a Victron DC to DC Converter Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer If you don’t have the Time or Money to do it right in the first place, how will you get the Time and Money to fix it? [TSBLOGODPIx500x200] tom at solar-biz.com MAIN TOLL FREE: 888-826-0939 DIRECT: 888-503-6772 International: 001-575-539-2111 PANAMA: 507-836-5588 X 122 FAX: 520-844-8442 www.thesolarbiz.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2019 6:51 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems Agreed: no 12v tap. I’ll add (with modest experience, as this doesn’t come up as an upgrade very often any more) that Mean Well, despite the odd name, proved itself pretty reliable in some early Wattsun tracker drives and some other DC-DC applications. Available online; see https://www.meanwell-web.com/en-gb/dcdc-converters/ Allan On Dec 31, 2019, at 10:46 AM, Dan Fink > wrote: I second everyone. Center-tapping a 24 or 48v battery bank for 12v SEEMS like it should work just fine, especially for low load infrequent use like a 12v water pressure pump for a greenhouse, a weather station, etc.. Nope, I've been a loser every time, with that battery or pair always the first to go bad. Samlex and Victron both make DC-DC converters I have had good luck with; they are thermally protected and you can stack multiple units for more amperage. Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP PV Associate NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers danbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 10:57 AM Ray > wrote: Even with battery balancers, battery tapping is still a really bad idea. I know, I did it on my own system in the 90s. The DC/DC converters are the way to go, but be sure and over size it by a fair amount to handle the fridge starting surge. Unfortunately my favorites are no longer available: made by Solar Converters in Canada. I've seen them last decades. Iota should be good stuff, their chargers have long term reliability. Samlex inverters have been around for quite a while too, but I don't have long term experience with their converters. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 12/31/19 10:05 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Tapping a battery bank is not a good practice. it will unbalance the bank. Much better to add a 24V electronic converter for the 12V loads. Then replace the 12V loads when time permits. They will need a spare converter so buy 2. Amazon has tons of these converters. Your quote is great BTW. H N Y ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:52:20 -0500, Chris Schaefer wrote: G'day and Happy New Year to All, Recently came across this offgrid OB FX system. The first part is a 12v battery system w/ 2 PV modules, 2 Trojan L16 batteries used to power a frig and freezer about 6 years old. The second is a 24v with 3kw of PV, 4 Trojan L16's, twin OB FX inverters installed by an HVAC contractor back in 2016. This was their first offgrid project. Oh boy, lol. The client would like to add more battery capacity to both. My thought here is since we are powering only a 12v frig and freezer why not simplify the system by creating a single battery bank and then tapping off of the 24v bank using proper fusing and creating a 12v buss? Admittedly I live in a 48v world so I'm asking our esteemed colleges as to options on how to address this. Oh yeah, the installer is unresponsive (no surprise there) and they are also having firmware issues with an old Mate 3 and would like me to install a new Mate 3s but that's another issue I'll tackle when I head out to site. Thanks All, Christopher- Chris Schaefer's [Image removed by sender.] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [Image removed by sender.] Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6229 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 560 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 645 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Thu Jan 2 15:37:24 2020 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 12:37:24 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems In-Reply-To: References: <2458818d-68ea-34df-9e71-5f72b7b23286@solarray.com> Message-ID: <077a01d5c1ac$717e5ca0$547b15e0$@solarwindworks.com> I would like to add that you don’t need to get rid of the 12 v battery bank, but use it for the high amp draw buffer, like a large capacitor. Then use the DC to DC converter between the two battery banks. Done this for years on multiple off grid systems. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP PV Installation Professional Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tom Duffy Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2020 8:55 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems Agree! use a Victron DC to DC Converter Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer If you don’t have the Time or Money to do it right in the first place, how will you get the Time and Money to fix it? TSBLOGODPIx500x200 tom at solar-biz.com MAIN TOLL FREE: 888-826-0939 DIRECT: 888-503-6772 International: 001-575-539-2111 PANAMA: 507-836-5588 X 122 FAX: 520-844-8442 www.thesolarbiz.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2019 6:51 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems Agreed: no 12v tap. I’ll add (with modest experience, as this doesn’t come up as an upgrade very often any more) that Mean Well, despite the odd name, proved itself pretty reliable in some early Wattsun tracker drives and some other DC-DC applications. Available online; see https://www.meanwell-web.com/en-gb/dcdc-converters/ Allan On Dec 31, 2019, at 10:46 AM, Dan Fink wrote: I second everyone. Center-tapping a 24 or 48v battery bank for 12v SEEMS like it should work just fine, especially for low load infrequent use like a 12v water pressure pump for a greenhouse, a weather station, etc.. Nope, I've been a loser every time, with that battery or pair always the first to go bad. Samlex and Victron both make DC-DC converters I have had good luck with; they are thermally protected and you can stack multiple units for more amperage. Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP PV Associate NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 10:57 AM Ray wrote: Even with battery balancers, battery tapping is still a really bad idea. I know, I did it on my own system in the 90s. The DC/DC converters are the way to go, but be sure and over size it by a fair amount to handle the fridge starting surge. Unfortunately my favorites are no longer available: made by Solar Converters in Canada. I've seen them last decades. Iota should be good stuff, their chargers have long term reliability. Samlex inverters have been around for quite a while too, but I don't have long term experience with their converters. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 12/31/19 10:05 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Tapping a battery bank is not a good practice. it will unbalance the bank. Much better to add a 24V electronic converter for the 12V loads. Then replace the 12V loads when time permits. They will need a spare converter so buy 2. Amazon has tons of these converters. Your quote is great BTW. H N Y ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:52:20 -0500, Chris Schaefer wrote: G'day and Happy New Year to All, Recently came across this offgrid OB FX system. The first part is a 12v battery system w/ 2 PV modules, 2 Trojan L16 batteries used to power a frig and freezer about 6 years old. The second is a 24v with 3kw of PV, 4 Trojan L16's, twin OB FX inverters installed by an HVAC contractor back in 2016. This was their first offgrid project. Oh boy, lol. The client would like to add more battery capacity to both. My thought here is since we are powering only a 12v frig and freezer why not simplify the system by creating a single battery bank and then tapping off of the 24v bank using proper fusing and creating a 12v buss? Admittedly I live in a 48v world so I'm asking our esteemed colleges as to options on how to address this. Oh yeah, the installer is unresponsive (no surprise there) and they are also having firmware issues with an old Mate 3 and would like me to install a new Mate 3s but that's another issue I'll tackle when I head out to site. Thanks All, Christopher- Chris Schaefer's Image removed by sender. Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Image removed by sender. Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3779 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 425 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image008.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 463 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jan 2 18:23:33 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 16:23:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems In-Reply-To: <077a01d5c1ac$717e5ca0$547b15e0$@solarwindworks.com> References: <2458818d-68ea-34df-9e71-5f72b7b23286@solarray.com> <077a01d5c1ac$717e5ca0$547b15e0$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: How do you insure proper charge voltage to the 12 v set?  Never tried that one. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/2/20 1:37 PM, Chris Worcester wrote: > > I would like to add that you don’t need to get rid of the 12 v battery > bank, but use it for the high amp draw buffer, like a large capacitor. > Then use the DC to DC converter between the two battery banks. Done > this for years on multiple off grid systems. > > Chris Worcester > > Solar Wind Works > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > > Office 530-582-4503 > > Cell 530-448-9692 > > www.solarwindworks.com > > chris at solarwindworks.com > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Tom Duffy > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 01, 2020 8:55 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems > > Agree!  use a Victron DC to DC Converter > > Kind regards > > ** > > *Tom Duffy* > > */Senior Solar Design Engineer/* > > ** > > *If you don’t have the Time or Money to do it right in the first > place, how will you get the Time and Money to fix it?* > > TSBLOGODPIx500x200 > > *tom at solar-biz.com * > > *MAIN TOLL FREE:**888-826-0939* > > *DIRECT:**888-503-6772* > > *International:**001-575-539-2111* > > *PANAMA:**507-836-5588 X 122* > > *FAX: 520-844-8442* > > */www.thesolarbiz.com/* > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Allan Sindelar > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 31, 2019 6:51 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems > > Agreed: no 12v tap. I’ll add (with modest experience, as this doesn’t > come up as an upgrade very often any more) that Mean Well, despite the > odd name, proved itself pretty reliable in some early Wattsun tracker > drives and some other DC-DC applications. Available online; see > https://www.meanwell-web.com/en-gb/dcdc-converters/ > > Allan > > > On Dec 31, 2019, at 10:46 AM, Dan Fink > wrote: > > I second everyone. Center-tapping a 24 or 48v battery bank for 12v > SEEMS like it should work just fine, especially for low load > infrequent use like a 12v water pressure pump for a greenhouse, a > weather station, etc.. Nope, I've been a loser every time, with > that battery or pair always the first to go bad. > > Samlex and Victron both make DC-DC converters I have had good luck > with; they are thermally protected and you can stack multiple > units for more amperage. > > > Dan Fink > > Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting > > NABCEP PV Associate > > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > > ~ PV Installation Professional > > ~ Small Wind Installer > > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers > > d anbob88 at gmail.com > > > 970-672-4342 > > > On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 10:57 AM Ray > wrote: > > Even with battery balancers, battery tapping is still a really > bad idea.  I know, I did it on my own system in the 90s.  The > DC/DC converters are the way to go, but be sure and over size > it by a fair amount to handle the fridge starting surge.  > Unfortunately my favorites are no longer available: made by > Solar Converters in Canada. I've seen them last decades. Iota > should be good stuff, their chargers have long term > reliability.  Samlex inverters have been around for quite a > while too, but I don't have long term experience with their > converters. > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > 303 505-8760 > > On 12/31/19 10:05 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Tapping a battery bank is not a good practice. it will > unbalance the bank. Much better to add a 24V electronic > converter for the 12V loads. Then replace the 12V loads > when time permits. They will need a spare converter so buy > 2. Amazon has tons of these converters. Your quote is > great BTW. H N Y ! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't"* > > *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/* > > *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * > > *text 209 813 0060* > > On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:52:20 -0500, Chris Schaefer > > wrote: > > G'day and Happy New Year to All, > > Recently came across this offgrid OB FX system. The > first part is a 12v battery system w/ 2 PV modules, 2 > Trojan L16  batteries used to power a frig and freezer > about 6 years old. The second is a 24v with 3kw of PV, > 4 Trojan L16's, twin OB FX inverters installed by an > HVAC contractor back in 2016. This was their first > offgrid project. Oh boy, lol. The client would like to > add more battery capacity to both. My thought here is > since we are powering only a 12v frig and freezer why > not simplify the system by creating a single battery > bank and then tapping off of the 24v bank using proper > fusing and creating a 12v buss? Admittedly I live in a > 48v world so I'm asking our esteemed colleges as to > options on how to address this. > > Oh yeah, the installer is unresponsive (no surprise > there) and they are also having firmware issues with > an old Mate 3 and would like me to install a new Mate > 3s but that's another issue I'll tackle when I head > out to site. > > Thanks All, > > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer's > Image removed by sender. > /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 // > //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424// > //www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: > chris at solarandwindfx.com > / > > /Image removed by sender./ > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great > Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to > exist when you take away from those who are willing to > work and give to those who would not." > > -- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3779 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 425 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image008.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 463 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Thu Jan 2 18:45:01 2020 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 15:45:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems In-Reply-To: References: <2458818d-68ea-34df-9e71-5f72b7b23286@solarray.com> <077a01d5c1ac$717e5ca0$547b15e0$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: <07d601d5c1c6$a71c41f0$f554c5d0$@solarwindworks.com> Check the output voltage limits on the converter, typically they’ve been well within an FLA battery’s absorb voltage window. It’s basically a trickle charger between the two banks. Used this from 48 v to 12 v also, Solar Converters were the ones. Is BZ Products still around? The part of this that I haven’t done was to add a solar array to the smaller battery bank also. Don’t see anything wrong with that as each controller will maintain the battery bank voltage just fine. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP PV Installation Professional Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2020 3:24 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems How do you insure proper charge voltage to the 12 v set? Never tried that one. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/2/20 1:37 PM, Chris Worcester wrote: I would like to add that you don’t need to get rid of the 12 v battery bank, but use it for the high amp draw buffer, like a large capacitor. Then use the DC to DC converter between the two battery banks. Done this for years on multiple off grid systems. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP PV Installation Professional Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tom Duffy Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2020 8:55 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems Agree! use a Victron DC to DC Converter Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer If you don’t have the Time or Money to do it right in the first place, how will you get the Time and Money to fix it? TSBLOGODPIx500x200 tom at solar-biz.com MAIN TOLL FREE: 888-826-0939 DIRECT: 888-503-6772 International: 001-575-539-2111 PANAMA: 507-836-5588 X 122 FAX: 520-844-8442 www.thesolarbiz.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2019 6:51 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems Agreed: no 12v tap. I’ll add (with modest experience, as this doesn’t come up as an upgrade very often any more) that Mean Well, despite the odd name, proved itself pretty reliable in some early Wattsun tracker drives and some other DC-DC applications. Available online; see https://www.meanwell-web.com/en-gb/dcdc-converters/ Allan On Dec 31, 2019, at 10:46 AM, Dan Fink wrote: I second everyone. Center-tapping a 24 or 48v battery bank for 12v SEEMS like it should work just fine, especially for low load infrequent use like a 12v water pressure pump for a greenhouse, a weather station, etc.. Nope, I've been a loser every time, with that battery or pair always the first to go bad. Samlex and Victron both make DC-DC converters I have had good luck with; they are thermally protected and you can stack multiple units for more amperage. Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP PV Associate NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 10:57 AM Ray wrote: Even with battery balancers, battery tapping is still a really bad idea. I know, I did it on my own system in the 90s. The DC/DC converters are the way to go, but be sure and over size it by a fair amount to handle the fridge starting surge. Unfortunately my favorites are no longer available: made by Solar Converters in Canada. I've seen them last decades. Iota should be good stuff, their chargers have long term reliability. Samlex inverters have been around for quite a while too, but I don't have long term experience with their converters. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 12/31/19 10:05 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Tapping a battery bank is not a good practice. it will unbalance the bank. Much better to add a 24V electronic converter for the 12V loads. Then replace the 12V loads when time permits. They will need a spare converter so buy 2. Amazon has tons of these converters. Your quote is great BTW. H N Y ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:52:20 -0500, Chris Schaefer wrote: G'day and Happy New Year to All, Recently came across this offgrid OB FX system. The first part is a 12v battery system w/ 2 PV modules, 2 Trojan L16 batteries used to power a frig and freezer about 6 years old. The second is a 24v with 3kw of PV, 4 Trojan L16's, twin OB FX inverters installed by an HVAC contractor back in 2016. This was their first offgrid project. Oh boy, lol. The client would like to add more battery capacity to both. My thought here is since we are powering only a 12v frig and freezer why not simplify the system by creating a single battery bank and then tapping off of the 24v bank using proper fusing and creating a 12v buss? Admittedly I live in a 48v world so I'm asking our esteemed colleges as to options on how to address this. Oh yeah, the installer is unresponsive (no surprise there) and they are also having firmware issues with an old Mate 3 and would like me to install a new Mate 3s but that's another issue I'll tackle when I head out to site. Thanks All, Christopher- Chris Schaefer's Image removed bysender. Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Image removed bysender. Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3779 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 425 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 463 bytes Desc: not available URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 22:55:57 2020 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 22:55:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris, I have a 12vdc sunfrost fridge and a few 12v receptacles left over from the 12v days and I did the same as your customer with 2L16’s and a few panels and backed it up with an Iota charger plugged into an AC outlet powered by my 48v Outback inverter. Then I discontinued the dedicated Pv panels when remodeling the house and eventually got rid of the batteries. Just the Iota to the DC circuit works great! Happy New Year John Blittersdorf On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 11:52 AM Chris Schaefer wrote: > G'day and Happy New Year to All, > > Recently came across this offgrid OB FX system. The first part is a 12v > battery system w/ 2 PV modules, 2 Trojan L16 batteries used to power a > frig and freezer about 6 years old. The second is a 24v with 3kw of PV, 4 > Trojan L16's, twin OB FX inverters installed by an HVAC contractor back in > 2016. This was their first offgrid project. Oh boy, lol. The client would > like to add more battery capacity to both. My thought here is since we are > powering only a 12v frig and freezer why not simplify the system by > creating a single battery bank and then tapping off of the 24v bank using > proper fusing and creating a 12v buss? Admittedly I live in a 48v world so > I'm asking our esteemed colleges as to options on how to address this. > > Oh yeah, the installer is unresponsive (no surprise there) and they are > also having firmware issues with an old Mate 3 and would like me to install > a new Mate 3s but that's another issue I'll tackle when I head out to site. > > Thanks All, > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road > > ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jan 2 22:07:24 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 19:07:24 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting. Could you use a charge controller, like a C40 for this purpose? Having asked that, I really try to avoid multiple systems on one property. One battery bank is trouble enough... Wm > On Jan 2, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Ray wrote: > >  > How do you insure proper charge voltage to the 12 v set? Never tried that one. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 1/2/20 1:37 PM, Chris Worcester wrote: >> I would like to add that you don’t need to get rid of the 12 v battery bank, but use it for the high amp draw buffer, like a large capacitor. Then use the DC to DC converter between the two battery banks. Done this for years on multiple off grid systems. >> >> Chris Worcester >> Solar Wind Works >> NABCEP PV Installation Professional >> Office 530-582-4503 >> Cell 530-448-9692 >> www.solarwindworks.com >> chris at solarwindworks.com >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tom Duffy >> Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2020 8:55 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems >> >> Agree! use a Victron DC to DC Converter >> >> Kind regards >> >> Tom Duffy >> Senior Solar Design Engineer >> >> If you don’t have the Time or Money to do it right in the first place, how will you get the Time and Money to fix it? >> >> tom at solar-biz.com >> MAIN TOLL FREE: 888-826-0939 >> DIRECT: 888-503-6772 >> International: 001-575-539-2111 >> PANAMA: 507-836-5588 X 122 >> FAX: 520-844-8442 >> www.thesolarbiz.com >> >> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar >> Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2019 6:51 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems >> >> Agreed: no 12v tap. I’ll add (with modest experience, as this doesn’t come up as an upgrade very often any more) that Mean Well, despite the odd name, proved itself pretty reliable in some early Wattsun tracker drives and some other DC-DC applications. Available online; see https://www.meanwell-web.com/en-gb/dcdc-converters/ >> Allan >> >> On Dec 31, 2019, at 10:46 AM, Dan Fink wrote: >> >> I second everyone. Center-tapping a 24 or 48v battery bank for 12v SEEMS like it should work just fine, especially for low load infrequent use like a 12v water pressure pump for a greenhouse, a weather station, etc.. Nope, I've been a loser every time, with that battery or pair always the first to go bad. >> >> Samlex and Victron both make DC-DC converters I have had good luck with; they are thermally protected and you can stack multiple units for more amperage. >> >> Dan Fink >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting >> NABCEP PV Associate >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers >> danbob88 at gmail.com >> 970-672-4342 >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 10:57 AM Ray wrote: >> Even with battery balancers, battery tapping is still a really bad idea. I know, I did it on my own system in the 90s. The DC/DC converters are the way to go, but be sure and over size it by a fair amount to handle the fridge starting surge. Unfortunately my favorites are no longer available: made by Solar Converters in Canada. I've seen them last decades. Iota should be good stuff, their chargers have long term reliability. Samlex inverters have been around for quite a while too, but I don't have long term experience with their converters. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 12/31/19 10:05 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> Tapping a battery bank is not a good practice. it will unbalance the bank. Much better to add a 24V electronic converter for the 12V loads. Then replace the 12V loads when time permits. They will need a spare converter so buy 2. Amazon has tons of these converters. Your quote is great BTW. H N Y ! >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:52:20 -0500, Chris Schaefer wrote: >> >> G'day and Happy New Year to All, >> >> Recently came across this offgrid OB FX system. The first part is a 12v battery system w/ 2 PV modules, 2 Trojan L16 batteries used to power a frig and freezer about 6 years old. The second is a 24v with 3kw of PV, 4 Trojan L16's, twin OB FX inverters installed by an HVAC contractor back in 2016. This was their first offgrid project. Oh boy, lol. The client would like to add more battery capacity to both. My thought here is since we are powering only a 12v frig and freezer why not simplify the system by creating a single battery bank and then tapping off of the 24v bank using proper fusing and creating a 12v buss? Admittedly I live in a 48v world so I'm asking our esteemed colleges as to options on how to address this. >> >> Oh yeah, the installer is unresponsive (no surprise there) and they are also having firmware issues with an old Mate 3 and would like me to install a new Mate 3s but that's another issue I'll tackle when I head out to site. >> >> Thanks All, >> Christopher- >> Chris Schaefer's >> >> >> Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >> 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> -- >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Fri Jan 3 08:20:35 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 08:20:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Chris, I recently found myself in a similar situation with an existing 24V system with a 24v fridge and 12v freezer. The client wanted to upgrade to LiFePO4 so I decided that it would be easier and cheaper to go 48v. I used the Samlex IDC 360-C24 and IDC 360-C12 DC to DC converters to take the newly bussed 48v from the LiFePO4 battery to the existing 24v and 12v loads in their respective loads centers. Admittedly more moving parts, but I was happy with the outcome. Hope this helps, Chris On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 10:56 PM John Blittersdorf < john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > Chris, > I have a 12vdc sunfrost fridge and a few 12v receptacles left over > from the 12v days and I did the same as your customer with 2L16’s and a few > panels and backed it up with an Iota charger plugged into an AC outlet > powered by my 48v Outback inverter. Then I discontinued the dedicated Pv > panels when remodeling the house and eventually got rid of the batteries. > Just the Iota to the DC circuit works great! > > Happy New Year > John Blittersdorf > > > > On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 11:52 AM Chris Schaefer > wrote: > >> G'day and Happy New Year to All, >> >> Recently came across this offgrid OB FX system. The first part is a 12v >> battery system w/ 2 PV modules, 2 Trojan L16 batteries used to power a >> frig and freezer about 6 years old. The second is a 24v with 3kw of PV, 4 >> Trojan L16's, twin OB FX inverters installed by an HVAC contractor back in >> 2016. This was their first offgrid project. Oh boy, lol. The client would >> like to add more battery capacity to both. My thought here is since we are >> powering only a 12v frig and freezer why not simplify the system by >> creating a single battery bank and then tapping off of the 24v bank using >> proper fusing and creating a 12v buss? Admittedly I live in a 48v world so >> I'm asking our esteemed colleges as to options on how to address this. >> >> Oh yeah, the installer is unresponsive (no surprise there) and they are >> also having firmware issues with an old Mate 3 and would like me to install >> a new Mate 3s but that's another issue I'll tackle when I head out to site. >> >> Thanks All, >> Christopher- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road >> >> ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Jan 4 11:06:32 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2020 11:06:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Question Message-ID: <42e5ade5e2cfef98bc1a27c8b46f6e788ce8b697@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Hello Wrenches, Are the power modules in a Radian the same?  Are the left and right ones interchangeable?  What designates the master as such? Is it the ribbon cable connection to the control stack? Thank you, Drake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jan 4 11:31:01 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 08:31:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Question In-Reply-To: <42e5ade5e2cfef98bc1a27c8b46f6e788ce8b697@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <42e5ade5e2cfef98bc1a27c8b46f6e788ce8b697@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <8F4EB98E-FF71-411F-B928-081E59D71396@gmail.com> Hi Drake, Yes on all accounts. It can run on 1 as well. Jay Peltz power. > On Jan 4, 2020, at 8:17 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > >  > Hello Wrenches, > > Are the power modules in a Radian the same? Are the left and right ones interchangeable? What designates the master as such? Is it the ribbon cable connection to the control stack? > > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Jan 4 14:30:47 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2020 14:30:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Question In-Reply-To: <8F4EB98E-FF71-411F-B928-081E59D71396@gmail.com> Message-ID: <26323a7970df29b4bb3bdaa7488631416a51e817@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Hi Jay, I replaced the control stack, the power supply and the module on my right. The inverter still doesn't come on at all. I want to take the removed module and put it in the number one slot. From what you are saying, it sounds like this should work fine. Chris, at Outback, said the module on the left (facing the box I assume) controls the one on the right. Tech support disappeared for the weekend before I could get any answers. Thank you, Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To:"RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent:Sat, 4 Jan 2020 08:31:01 -0800 Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Radian Question Hi Drake, Yes on all accounts. It can run on 1 as well. Jay Peltz power. > On Jan 4, 2020, at 8:17 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > >  > Hello Wrenches, > > Are the power modules in a Radian the same? Are the left and right ones interchangeable? What designates the master as such? Is it the ribbon cable connection to the control stack? > > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Sat Jan 4 15:15:23 2020 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 12:15:23 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Question In-Reply-To: <26323a7970df29b4bb3bdaa7488631416a51e817@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <8F4EB98E-FF71-411F-B928-081E59D71396@gmail.com> <26323a7970df29b4bb3bdaa7488631416a51e817@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Hey guys, it's been a while, but 7 years ago they were, the same, and the ribbon cable/location of the module denoted which one was the master... If I remember correctly, the one closest to the mainboard is supposed to be the "master". If you swap out the outside one, and it's still not powering up, then swap them, you can also test it with just one module to eliminate any other issues. If you still don't get power-up, there is either a control card issue (I see you've done the power supply and control card as well) or a cable isn't seated correctly. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ *Become a Certified PV Professional. Register for* *NABCEP CEC 2020* *using promo code* *20RBE* ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 11:48 AM wrote: > Hi Jay, > > I replaced the control stack, the power supply and the module on my right. > The inverter still doesn't come on at all. I want to take the removed > module and put it in the number one slot. From what you are saying, it > sounds like this should work fine. > > Chris, at Outback, said the module on the left (facing the box I assume) > controls the one on the right. Tech support disappeared for the weekend > before I could get any answers. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > "RE-wrenches" > > To: > "RE-wrenches" > Cc: > > Sent: > Sat, 4 Jan 2020 08:31:01 -0800 > Subject: > Re: [RE-wrenches] Radian Question > > > Hi Drake, > > Yes on all accounts. > > It can run on 1 as well. > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > > > On Jan 4, 2020, at 8:17 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > > >  > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > Are the power modules in a Radian the same? Are the left and right ones > interchangeable? What designates the master as such? Is it the ribbon cable > connection to the control stack? > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > Drake > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jan 4 14:58:36 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 11:58:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Question In-Reply-To: <26323a7970df29b4bb3bdaa7488631416a51e817@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <26323a7970df29b4bb3bdaa7488631416a51e817@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <1BE2EFAE-D449-4937-A738-3DC99B9F1AE8@gmail.com> Hi Drake. give That a shot. The left power module is the master. It’s my understanding that the control of the PM’s is done from the control boards. Jay On Jan 4, 2020, at 11:48 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > >  > Hi Jay, > > I replaced the control stack, the power supply and the module on my right. The inverter still doesn't come on at all. I want to take the removed module and put it in the number one slot. From what you are saying, it sounds like this should work fine. > > Chris, at Outback, said the module on the left (facing the box I assume) controls the one on the right. Tech support disappeared for the weekend before I could get any answers. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "RE-wrenches" > To:"RE-wrenches" > Cc: > Sent:Sat, 4 Jan 2020 08:31:01 -0800 > Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Radian Question > > > Hi Drake, > > Yes on all accounts. > > It can run on 1 as well. > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > > > On Jan 4, 2020, at 8:17 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > > >  > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > Are the power modules in a Radian the same? Are the left and right ones interchangeable? What designates the master as such? Is it the ribbon cable connection to the control stack? > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > Drake > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roland at renewablenergy.com Sun Jan 5 14:48:45 2020 From: roland at renewablenergy.com (Roland - RES) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 09:48:45 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Question In-Reply-To: <42e5ade5e2cfef98bc1a27c8b46f6e788ce8b697@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <42e5ade5e2cfef98bc1a27c8b46f6e788ce8b697@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: You can select which power module is used with the Mate under the inverter settings. Left, right or auto. This way you won’t have to physically swap the modules to determine if one has failed. > Sent from a IPhone, with touch screen keys on the fly. Please excuse shortcuts and typos. > Roland Shackelford NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER President Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc. Mobile: 808-938-9239 www.renewablenergy.com > On Jan 4, 2020, at 6:17 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > >  > Hello Wrenches, > > Are the power modules in a Radian the same? Are the left and right ones interchangeable? What designates the master as such? Is it the ribbon cable connection to the control stack? > > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 14:08:47 2020 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 14:08:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SI 5048 and replacement Lithium Ion battery bank Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I have a SI 5048 system installed in 2012 with Concorde PVX-4050HT AGM battery bank. The system has shut down a couple of times with low battery voltage and it seems the batteries may be on their way out. There are some signs of seepage on a couple of these sealed batteries. A few pictures attached. System owner would like to consider a Lithium Ion replacement. SMA provided the attached list of compatible batteries. Can any of you provide your experience with these batteries or others which could work for this application? With Kind Regards Carl Adams SunRock Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Dual SI5048 installation with NottaGutter_SM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 171665 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: corrosion 3.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 235076 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: corrosion 4.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 211975 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SI_LiIon-TI-en-41.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 278139 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Tue Jan 7 15:34:02 2020 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 15:34:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SI 5048 and replacement Lithium Ion battery bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001701d5c599$cc8a9500$659fbf00$@mindspring.com> Carl Oh the joy of Fla’s. I looked at the battery list. Several are only available in Europe and some are no longer in business. Take a look at Fortress Batteries. Great LI tech, warrantee, price point, several models and a long service life ( 6000 full cycles ) in the meantime you might want to clean off the battery corrosion then wipe a light glaze of Vaseline around the entire terminal area, will keep the corrosion away. Great looking install by the way. peter From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Carl Adams Sent: Tuesday, January 7, 2020 2:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] SI 5048 and replacement Lithium Ion battery bank Hello Wrenches, I have a SI 5048 system installed in 2012 with Concorde PVX-4050HT AGM battery bank. The system has shut down a couple of times with low battery voltage and it seems the batteries may be on their way out. There are some signs of seepage on a couple of these sealed batteries. A few pictures attached. System owner would like to consider a Lithium Ion replacement. SMA provided the attached list of compatible batteries. Can any of you provide your experience with these batteries or others which could work for this application? With Kind Regards Carl Adams SunRock Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 16:05:18 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 11:05:18 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SI 5048 and replacement Lithium Ion battery bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Carl Blue planet Energy has a LFP solution that works well, the SI5048 is one of the units that Blue Planet has tested there batteries on and has the set points needed, if you are interested I can put in touch with the powers that be Jerry On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 9:09 AM Carl Adams wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > I have a SI 5048 system installed in 2012 with Concorde PVX-4050HT AGM > battery bank. The system has shut down a couple of times with low battery > voltage and it seems the batteries may be on their way out. There are some > signs of seepage on a couple of these sealed batteries. A few pictures > attached. > > System owner would like to consider a Lithium Ion replacement. SMA > provided the attached list of compatible batteries. Can any of you provide > your experience with these batteries or others which could work for this > application? > > With Kind Regards > Carl Adams > SunRock Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Jan 7 16:11:42 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 14:11:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SI 5048 and replacement Lithium Ion battery bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I recently contacted SMA about their requirement that if the LI+ battery isn't on their list, that we must use Lead acid.  I consider that to be a really poor answer;  just because they haven't tested it, we should not be forced to use a much worse alternative.  Yes, they would prefer to have all their tech communicate with the battery tech, but telling us to use lead acid, that has no communications available at all is the answer? Lead and Sulfuric acid that off gases deadly H2S, with no internal BMS at all, inefficient overall performance, and short life is preferred ??! On top of that, SMA has no one that can even answer questions on the Sunny Island systems at all.  Tech support can't or won't answer any of our questions.  Repeated emails to Heiko Stieber (apparently the only one there that knows) have gone unanswered. We are in the middle of a large 4 system project, that would have used 15 Sunny Island inverters, but we had to switch to Schneider, because of the utter lack of technical support for battery based systems from SMA.  We were also considering the Tripower Storage 60, but it is only available in Europe, and once again, we can't get any support or info on that product either. My decision process works like this: if you can't answer tech questions in the design phase, where are we going to be when we're trouble shooting this equipment in some remote location later? Answer: SMA is not a viable option at this time. Too bad, I've been installing their equipment for almost 20 years, they were our first choice too.... And back to Carl's question: most of the batteries on SMA's approved list aren't even available in the US......so no, we don't have experience with them. Rant off, Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/7/20 12:08 PM, Carl Adams wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > I have a SI 5048 system installed in 2012 with Concorde PVX-4050HT AGM > battery bank.  The system has shut down a couple of times with low > battery voltage and it seems the batteries may be on their way out.  > There are some signs of seepage on a couple of these sealed > batteries.  A few pictures attached. > > System owner would like to consider a Lithium Ion replacement.  SMA > provided the attached list of compatible batteries.  Can any of you > provide your experience with these batteries or others which could > work for this application? > > With Kind Regards > Carl Adams > SunRock Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 17:01:37 2020 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 17:01:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SI 5048 and replacement Lithium Ion battery bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Jerry, Please forward any contact info you have on this product. On Tue, Jan 7, 2020, 4:05 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Carl > Blue planet Energy has a LFP solution that works well, the SI5048 is one > of the units that Blue Planet has tested there batteries on and has the set > points needed, if you are interested I can put in touch with the powers > that be > Jerry > > On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 9:09 AM Carl Adams wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> I have a SI 5048 system installed in 2012 with Concorde PVX-4050HT AGM >> battery bank. The system has shut down a couple of times with low battery >> voltage and it seems the batteries may be on their way out. There are some >> signs of seepage on a couple of these sealed batteries. A few pictures >> attached. >> >> System owner would like to consider a Lithium Ion replacement. SMA >> provided the attached list of compatible batteries. Can any of you provide >> your experience with these batteries or others which could work for this >> application? >> >> With Kind Regards >> Carl Adams >> SunRock Solar >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 17:10:57 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 14:10:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SI 5048 and replacement Lithium Ion battery bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <262E4CEF-9D62-491E-96E6-218970C5F87D@gmail.com> Hi Carl, As you are using Schneider products, I’d recommend Discover lithium. They communicate with Schneider products using the standard xanbus protocol. https://discoverbattery.com/EN/products/lifepo4-batteries-aes-1/ Jay > On Jan 7, 2020, at 2:01 PM, Carl Adams wrote: > >  > Thanks Jerry, > Please forward any contact info you have on this product. > > >> On Tue, Jan 7, 2020, 4:05 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: >> Carl >> Blue planet Energy has a LFP solution that works well, the SI5048 is one of the units that Blue Planet has tested there batteries on and has the set points needed, if you are interested I can put in touch with the powers that be >> Jerry >> >>> On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 9:09 AM Carl Adams wrote: >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> I have a SI 5048 system installed in 2012 with Concorde PVX-4050HT AGM battery bank. The system has shut down a couple of times with low battery voltage and it seems the batteries may be on their way out. There are some signs of seepage on a couple of these sealed batteries. A few pictures attached. >>> >>> System owner would like to consider a Lithium Ion replacement. SMA provided the attached list of compatible batteries. Can any of you provide your experience with these batteries or others which could work for this application? >>> >>> With Kind Regards >>> Carl Adams >>> SunRock Solar >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 18:32:30 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 16:32:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SI 5048 and replacement Lithium Ion battery bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Carl, We replaced an older set of HUPs on a quad stack of SI5048 system with the 3 cabinets of Blue Ion product about a year ago. Its working fine. The Sunny Islands SOC algorithm becomes worthless with the Blue Ion but SOC can be viewed through the eGauge interface. If you are auto starting a generator, you will want to make sure to have a voltage triggered start (not available in the Sunny Island). We have found that triggering a start based on voltage and then just holding the relay closed for a programmable amount of time is the best way to manage the generator. There is no reason to "fill" the batteries and so you can really manage the generator hours. Overall, very happy with much improved efficiency, just don't believe the Sunny Island's SOC. Blue Ion has a good tech sheet for setting up the Sunny Island to charge them properly. Good Luck On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 3:01 PM Carl Adams wrote: > Thanks Jerry, > Please forward any contact info you have on this product. > > > On Tue, Jan 7, 2020, 4:05 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Carl >> Blue planet Energy has a LFP solution that works well, the SI5048 is one >> of the units that Blue Planet has tested there batteries on and has the set >> points needed, if you are interested I can put in touch with the powers >> that be >> Jerry >> >> On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 9:09 AM Carl Adams wrote: >> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> I have a SI 5048 system installed in 2012 with Concorde PVX-4050HT AGM >>> battery bank. The system has shut down a couple of times with low battery >>> voltage and it seems the batteries may be on their way out. There are some >>> signs of seepage on a couple of these sealed batteries. A few pictures >>> attached. >>> >>> System owner would like to consider a Lithium Ion replacement. SMA >>> provided the attached list of compatible batteries. Can any of you provide >>> your experience with these batteries or others which could work for this >>> application? >>> >>> With Kind Regards >>> Carl Adams >>> SunRock Solar >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Jan 8 09:55:57 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 09:55:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SI 5048 and replacement Lithium Ion battery bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B8D6A23-E180-4958-9697-24F5181EC603@swnl.net> Have you tried Hassan Taylor at SMA? Perhaps the default begin charging settings of 70% SOC may not be acceptable to the newer battery tech. Victron has inverters quite similar to the SMA line and their LiFe battery line along w/ their BMS, performs quite well. I have used LiFe but Im still NOT sold on them. We, as an industry, have repeatably been offered the latest & greatest, "were here for the long run” manufacturers, only to be left holding the unanswered phone. Aquion anyone? That being said, I really have not found FLA/ AGM battery performance, venting or installations to be too tough. > On Jan 7, 2020, at 4:11 PM, Ray wrote: > > I recently contacted SMA about their requirement that if the LI+ battery isn't on their list, that we must use Lead acid. I consider that to be a really poor answer; just because they haven't tested it, we should not be forced to use a much worse alternative. Yes, they would prefer to have all their tech communicate with the battery tech, but telling us to use lead acid, that has no communications available at all is the answer? Lead and Sulfuric acid that off gases deadly H2S, with no internal BMS at all, inefficient overall performance, and short life is preferred ??! > On top of that, SMA has no one that can even answer questions on the Sunny Island systems at all. Tech support can't or won't answer any of our questions. Repeated emails to Heiko Stieber (apparently the only one there that knows) have gone unanswered. We are in the middle of a large 4 system project, that would have used 15 Sunny Island inverters, but we had to switch to Schneider, because of the utter lack of technical support for battery based systems from SMA. We were also considering the Tripower Storage 60, but it is only available in Europe, and once again, we can't get any support or info on that product either. > My decision process works like this: if you can't answer tech questions in the design phase, where are we going to be when we're trouble shooting this equipment in some remote location later? > > Answer: SMA is not a viable option at this time. > > Too bad, I've been installing their equipment for almost 20 years, they were our first choice too.... > > And back to Carl's question: most of the batteries on SMA's approved list aren't even available in the US......so no, we don't have experience with them. > > Rant off, > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 1/7/20 12:08 PM, Carl Adams wrote: >> Hello Wrenches, >> I have a SI 5048 system installed in 2012 with Concorde PVX-4050HT AGM battery bank. The system has shut down a couple of times with low battery voltage and it seems the batteries may be on their way out. There are some signs of seepage on a couple of these sealed batteries. A few pictures attached. >> >> System owner would like to consider a Lithium Ion replacement. SMA provided the attached list of compatible batteries. Can any of you provide your experience with these batteries or others which could work for this application? >> >> With Kind Regards >> Carl Adams >> SunRock Solar >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Jan 8 15:35:37 2020 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:35:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 not available as a portable PDF? In-Reply-To: <3B8D6A23-E180-4958-9697-24F5181EC603@swnl.net> References: <3B8D6A23-E180-4958-9697-24F5181EC603@swnl.net> Message-ID: <8931c3ce-733e-8df3-b836-8b800739a0f1@entech-engineering.com> Wrenches, I was told that the NEC 2020 will not be available as a file. You can only access on line, or via the book.  Has anyone confirmed this?  It seems pretty certain.   How many times is one out in the field and needs to reference the NEC?  Now to do so, you will need the book or a connection to the Internet.  I am having a hard time believing that NFPA would be this short-sighted.  Chris From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Wed Jan 8 15:38:33 2020 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 12:38:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 not available as a portable PDF? In-Reply-To: <8931c3ce-733e-8df3-b836-8b800739a0f1@entech-engineering.com> References: <3B8D6A23-E180-4958-9697-24F5181EC603@swnl.net> <8931c3ce-733e-8df3-b836-8b800739a0f1@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: https://catalog.nfpa.org/NFPA-70-National-Electrical-Code-NEC-Softbound-P1194.aspx?order_src=G010&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI-fSc1e305gIVgtdkCh3Z0gXeEAAYASAAEgJ0nvD_BwE On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 12:35 PM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > Wrenches, > > I was told that the NEC 2020 will not be available as a file. You can > only access on line, or via the book. Has anyone confirmed this? It > seems pretty certain. How many times is one out in the field and needs > to reference the NEC? Now to do so, you will need the book or a > connection to the Internet. I am having a hard time believing that NFPA > would be this short-sighted. Chris > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Loren Ortiz Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* -- *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Jan 8 15:48:20 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 12:48:20 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 not available as a portable PDF? In-Reply-To: <8931c3ce-733e-8df3-b836-8b800739a0f1@entech-engineering.com> References: <3B8D6A23-E180-4958-9697-24F5181EC603@swnl.net> <8931c3ce-733e-8df3-b836-8b800739a0f1@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: I've heard from multiple sources and confirmed myself that you can't get the portable pdf of the NEC starting with the 2020 edition. The link that Lorenzo shared seems to indicate that older versions including 2017 edition are available in a digital format. [image: image.png] August Luminalt On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 12:35 PM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > Wrenches, > > I was told that the NEC 2020 will not be available as a file. You can > only access on line, or via the book. Has anyone confirmed this? It > seems pretty certain. How many times is one out in the field and needs > to reference the NEC? Now to do so, you will need the book or a > connection to the Internet. I am having a hard time believing that NFPA > would be this short-sighted. Chris > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 74126 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Wed Jan 8 16:35:53 2020 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 14:35:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 not available as a portable PDF? In-Reply-To: References: <3B8D6A23-E180-4958-9697-24F5181EC603@swnl.net> <8931c3ce-733e-8df3-b836-8b800739a0f1@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Although the 2020 version is advertised as being available in a pdf format there is an asterisk at the end of the page stating, "*One-year online access to *NEC 2020 Digital* is non-refundable. An Internet connection is required. (Digital, 2020)". In other words there does not appear to be an electronic, downloadable version. NEC 2020 Digital Access 1-Year When you select a digital product (pdf or digital access), you are purchasing a license to access NFPA *Information* electronically. To protect the authenticity of your product, certain restrictions apply. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jan 8 16:54:53 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 11:54:53 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 not available as a portable PDF? In-Reply-To: <8931c3ce-733e-8df3-b836-8b800739a0f1@entech-engineering.com> References: <3B8D6A23-E180-4958-9697-24F5181EC603@swnl.net> <8931c3ce-733e-8df3-b836-8b800739a0f1@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Maybe its just me but a NEC book still seams to be best in a paperback version then on a PDF or on line looking a a 5" screen, sometime tech is not the best solution but thats just me Jerry On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 10:35 AM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > Wrenches, > > I was told that the NEC 2020 will not be available as a file. You can > only access on line, or via the book. Has anyone confirmed this? It > seems pretty certain. How many times is one out in the field and needs > to reference the NEC? Now to do so, you will need the book or a > connection to the Internet. I am having a hard time believing that NFPA > would be this short-sighted. Chris > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Jan 8 17:20:44 2020 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2020 17:20:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 not available as a portable PDF? Message-ID: It is true, I have both 2017 and 2014 in PDF format.They must be concerned about piracy.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: August GoersDate: Wed, Jan 8, 2020 3:48 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 not available as a portable PDF?I've heard from multiple sources and confirmed myself that you can't get the portable pdf of the NEC starting with the 2020 edition. The link that Lorenzo shared seems to indicate that older versions including 2017 edition are available in a digital format.AugustLuminaltOn Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 12:35 PM Christopher Warfel wrote:Wrenches, I was told that the NEC 2020 will not be available as a file. You can only access on line, or via the book.  Has anyone confirmed this?  It seems pretty certain.   How many times is one out in the field and needs to reference the NEC?  Now to do so, you will need the book or a connection to the Internet.  I am having a hard time believing that NFPA would be this short-sighted.  Chris _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 74126 bytes Desc: image.png URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Jan 8 17:24:58 2020 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2020 17:24:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 not available as a portable PDF? Message-ID: I have used PDF versions of the previous 3 releases of the NEC extensively.On my laptops, telephone and tablet, when responding to questions in the field, from installers, and other inspectors. It takes up no more space when I travel, and I can do it discretely in a class to confirm or question a statement. I find it to be much more valuable than a hardcopy in any format.Again, just one guys opinion.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Jerry ShaferDate: Wed, Jan 8, 2020 4:55 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 not available as a portable PDF?WrenchesMaybe its just me but a NEC book still seams to be best in a paperback version then on a PDF or on line looking a a 5" screen, sometime tech is not the best solution but thats just meJerryOn Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 10:35 AM Christopher Warfel wrote:Wrenches, I was told that the NEC 2020 will not be available as a file. You can only access on line, or via the book.  Has anyone confirmed this?  It seems pretty certain.   How many times is one out in the field and needs to reference the NEC?  Now to do so, you will need the book or a connection to the Internet.  I am having a hard time believing that NFPA would be this short-sighted.  Chris _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gary at arp-solar.com Wed Jan 8 17:25:55 2020 From: gary at arp-solar.com (gary easton) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 17:25:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 not available as a portable PDF? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It’s a subscription. The digital you pay for access each year. On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 5:20 PM Glenn Burt wrote: > It is true, I have both 2017 and 2014 in PDF format. > > They must be concerned about piracy. > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *August Goers > *Date: *Wed, Jan 8, 2020 3:48 PM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 not available as a portable PDF? > > I've heard from multiple sources and confirmed myself that you can't get > the portable pdf of the NEC starting with the 2020 edition. The link that > Lorenzo shared seems to indicate that older versions including 2017 edition > are available in a digital format. > > [image: image.png] > > August > Luminalt > > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 12:35 PM Christopher Warfel < > cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> I was told that the NEC 2020 will not be available as a file. You can >> only access on line, or via the book. Has anyone confirmed this? It >> seems pretty certain. How many times is one out in the field and needs >> to reference the NEC? Now to do so, you will need the book or a >> connection to the Internet. I am having a hard time believing that NFPA >> would be this short-sighted. Chris >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 74126 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jan 8 17:50:11 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 14:50:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Switch Energy Storage Systems Message-ID: Greetings, Colleagues: Anyone have any experience with the Switch Energy Storage Systems? ( http://switchstorage.com/product/) Thanks in advance. William Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jan 8 18:26:08 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 18:26:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 not available as a portable PDF? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We are going backwards in this world. Thanks for making us less productive, NFPA. #Greedy. On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 5:26 PM gary easton wrote: > It’s a subscription. The digital you pay for access each year. > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 5:20 PM Glenn Burt wrote: > >> It is true, I have both 2017 and 2014 in PDF format. >> >> They must be concerned about piracy. >> >> -Glenn >> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >> >> ------ Original message------ >> *From: *August Goers >> *Date: *Wed, Jan 8, 2020 3:48 PM >> *To: *RE-wrenches; >> *Cc: * >> *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 not available as a portable PDF? >> >> I've heard from multiple sources and confirmed myself that you can't get >> the portable pdf of the NEC starting with the 2020 edition. The link that >> Lorenzo shared seems to indicate that older versions including 2017 edition >> are available in a digital format. >> >> [image: image.png] >> >> August >> Luminalt >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 12:35 PM Christopher Warfel < >> cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: >> >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> I was told that the NEC 2020 will not be available as a file. You can >>> only access on line, or via the book. Has anyone confirmed this? It >>> seems pretty certain. How many times is one out in the field and needs >>> to reference the NEC? Now to do so, you will need the book or a >>> connection to the Internet. I am having a hard time believing that NFPA >>> would be this short-sighted. Chris >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > Sent from Gmail Mobile > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 74126 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jan 8 18:36:27 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:36:27 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC in PDF format not availaible for 2020 Message-ID: Friends: I find the PDF version best for my uses. A portable, searchable, bookmark-able and cut and paste-able resource is essential for my work flow. I don’t think the NFPA is considering the needs of the field engineer when eliminating the PDF version. Maybe there are some members of this forum that have the ear of the NFPA and can put in a word to restore the portable version. As an aside, I find it troubling that one has to pay to read any law of the land. If a society makes rules, they should be freely available for all to review, free of charge. That is just my altruistic bias. William Miller Miller Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Wed Jan 8 19:34:00 2020 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 16:34:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 not available as a portable PDF? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The best price I've found for the handbook is at Barnes & Noble. If you go into the store you have to ask for the internet price. Also at least at my store they had it behind the counter in case you go looking for it. Brad On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 3:26 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > We are going backwards in this world. Thanks for making us less > productive, NFPA. #Greedy. > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 5:26 PM gary easton wrote: > >> It’s a subscription. The digital you pay for access each year. >> >> On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 5:20 PM Glenn Burt wrote: >> >>> It is true, I have both 2017 and 2014 in PDF format. >>> >>> They must be concerned about piracy. >>> >>> -Glenn >>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >>> >>> ------ Original message------ >>> *From: *August Goers >>> *Date: *Wed, Jan 8, 2020 3:48 PM >>> *To: *RE-wrenches; >>> *Cc: * >>> *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 not available as a portable PDF? >>> >>> I've heard from multiple sources and confirmed myself that you can't get >>> the portable pdf of the NEC starting with the 2020 edition. The link that >>> Lorenzo shared seems to indicate that older versions including 2017 edition >>> are available in a digital format. >>> >>> [image: image.png] >>> >>> August >>> Luminalt >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 12:35 PM Christopher Warfel < >>> cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Wrenches, >>>> >>>> I was told that the NEC 2020 will not be available as a file. You can >>>> only access on line, or via the book. Has anyone confirmed this? It >>>> seems pretty certain. How many times is one out in the field and >>>> needs >>>> to reference the NEC? Now to do so, you will need the book or a >>>> connection to the Internet. I am having a hard time believing that >>>> NFPA >>>> would be this short-sighted. Chris >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -- >> Sent from Gmail Mobile >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 74126 bytes Desc: not available URL: From findsolar at herzfeld.org Thu Jan 9 11:38:13 2020 From: findsolar at herzfeld.org (Martin Herzfeld) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 08:38:13 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 not available as a portable PDF? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: FYI - 1. As a member of the IAEI, "after three consecutive renewals you are eligible to receive a free National Electrical Code (NEC) book" as found here: https://www.iaei.org/Online/Benefits.aspx 2. I've been a member of IAEI for years and I've have received free NEC Code books. I've enjoyed the portable NFPA NEC portable "phone app" which did not required an internet connection found here: https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Standards/All-Codes-and-Standards/NFPA-digital-products - also now not available. 3. In other words, since I'm forced to use only the portable "paper copy," I'd rather receive it for free with other IAEI member benefits. All the best, Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037 https://www.youracclaim.com/badges/a54a49a9-31cb-4f52-b35f-9d7c90630bb9/public_url Adjunct Professor, Energy, American River College Contract Training Provider (CTP) California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, D56, D31, C-7 Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG https://www.youracclaim.com/badges/f23ae19b-0370-4ca1-99d1-418403a8faea/linked_in_profile Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors (IAEI) * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Provider On Wed, Jan 8, 2020, 4:34 PM Bradley Bassett wrote: > The best price I've found for the handbook is at Barnes & Noble. If you go > into the store you have to ask for the internet price. Also at least at my > store they had it behind the counter in case you go looking for it. > > Brad > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 3:26 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> We are going backwards in this world. Thanks for making us less >> productive, NFPA. #Greedy. >> >> On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 5:26 PM gary easton wrote: >> >>> It’s a subscription. The digital you pay for access each year. >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 5:20 PM Glenn Burt wrote: >>> >>>> It is true, I have both 2017 and 2014 in PDF format. >>>> >>>> They must be concerned about piracy. >>>> >>>> -Glenn >>>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >>>> >>>> ------ Original message------ >>>> *From: *August Goers >>>> *Date: *Wed, Jan 8, 2020 3:48 PM >>>> *To: *RE-wrenches; >>>> *Cc: * >>>> *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 not available as a portable PDF? >>>> >>>> I've heard from multiple sources and confirmed myself that you can't >>>> get the portable pdf of the NEC starting with the 2020 edition. The link >>>> that Lorenzo shared seems to indicate that older versions including 2017 >>>> edition are available in a digital format. >>>> >>>> [image: image.png] >>>> >>>> August >>>> Luminalt >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 12:35 PM Christopher Warfel < >>>> cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> I was told that the NEC 2020 will not be available as a file. You can >>>>> only access on line, or via the book. Has anyone confirmed this? It >>>>> seems pretty certain. How many times is one out in the field and >>>>> needs >>>>> to reference the NEC? Now to do so, you will need the book or a >>>>> connection to the Internet. I am having a hard time believing that >>>>> NFPA >>>>> would be this short-sighted. Chris >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> -- >>> Sent from Gmail Mobile >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 74126 bytes Desc: not available URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Fri Jan 10 09:46:19 2020 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 06:46:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Watch Out For Third party Tesla Modules - no warranty Message-ID: <84b45366-c739-1ad9-d529-e39acd33e2db@berkeleysolar.com> I received a sales email for some of these recently. https://www.pv-tech.org/news/panasonic-warns-us-solar-installers-of-tesla-designated-panels-on-the-marke From markf at berkeleysolar.com Fri Jan 10 10:47:54 2020 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 07:47:54 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Watch Out For Third party Tesla Modules - no warranty In-Reply-To: <84b45366-c739-1ad9-d529-e39acd33e2db@berkeleysolar.com> References: <84b45366-c739-1ad9-d529-e39acd33e2db@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: I spoke with the vendor who sent me the email and she confirmed that the modules are not warranted by Panasonic, but rather by Tesla with slightly different terms, so all is well, buyer beware. On 1/10/2020 6:46 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > I received a sales email for some of these recently. > > > > https://www.pv-tech.org/news/panasonic-warns-us-solar-installers-of-tesla-designated-panels-on-the-marke > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sun Jan 12 09:11:47 2020 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 09:11:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC in PDF format not availaible for 2020 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <897492e2-261d-e8b7-ed44-c88d596dce33@entech-engineering.com> I think that once a building code is adopted it must be made available at no charge. You bring up a good point.  The NEC is incorporated into many state's and the International Code.  Why can they charge for all access?   Chris On 1/8/2020 6:36 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > I find the PDF version best for my uses.  A portable, searchable, > bookmark-able and cut and paste-able resource is essential for my work > flow. > > I don’t think the NFPA is considering the needs of the field engineer > when eliminating the PDF version. Maybe there are some members of this > forum that have the ear of the NFPA and can put in a word to restore > the portable version. > > As an aside, I find it troubling that one has to pay to read any law > of the land.  If a society makes rules, they should be freely > available for all to review, free of charge.  That is just my > altruistic bias. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From findsolar at herzfeld.org Sun Jan 12 11:48:05 2020 From: findsolar at herzfeld.org (Martin Herzfeld) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 08:48:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC in PDF format not availaible for 2020 In-Reply-To: <897492e2-261d-e8b7-ed44-c88d596dce33@entech-engineering.com> References: <897492e2-261d-e8b7-ed44-c88d596dce33@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: FYI Only - In California, the Codes are found here: https://www.dgs.ca.gov/BSC/Codes#@ViewBag.JumpTo All the best, Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037 Adjunct Professor, Energy, American River College Contract Training Provider (CTP) California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, D56, D31, C-7 Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Provider On Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 6:11 AM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > I think that once a building code is adopted it must be made available at > no charge. You bring up a good point. The NEC is incorporated into many > state's and the International Code. Why can they charge for all access? > Chris > On 1/8/2020 6:36 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > > > I find the PDF version best for my uses. A portable, searchable, > bookmark-able and cut and paste-able resource is essential for my work flow. > > > > I don’t think the NFPA is considering the needs of the field engineer when > eliminating the PDF version. Maybe there are some members of this forum > that have the ear of the NFPA and can put in a word to restore the portable > version. > > > > As an aside, I find it troubling that one has to pay to read any law of > the land. If a society makes rules, they should be freely available for > all to review, free of charge. That is just my altruistic bias. > > > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sun Jan 12 13:00:44 2020 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 13:00:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 not available as a portable PDF? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <91a0e5b9-59fb-363e-3357-e9658084e77b@entech-engineering.com> No one should be forced to join a organization in order to receive access to a code document for free. On 1/9/2020 11:38 AM, Martin Herzfeld wrote: > FYI - ** > * > * > 1.  As a member of the IAEI, "after three consecutive renewals you are > eligible to receive a free National Electrical Code (NEC) book" as > found here: https://www.iaei.org/Online/Benefits.aspx > > 2.  I've been a member of IAEI for years and I've have received free > NEC Code books.  I've enjoyed the portable NFPA NEC portable "phone > app" which did not required an internet connection found here: > https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Standards/All-Codes-and-Standards/NFPA-digital-products > - also now not available. > > 3.  In other words, since I'm forced to use only the portable "paper > copy," I'd rather receive it for free with other IAEI member benefits. > > All the best, > > Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified > Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional > #IREC 10037 > https://www.youracclaim.com/badges/a54a49a9-31cb-4f52-b35f-9d7c90630bb9/public_url > Adjunct Professor, Energy, American River College > Contract Training Provider (CTP) > > California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782  C46, C10, > D56, D31, C-7 > Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, > Instrumentation > Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 > OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer > > CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG > https://www.youracclaim.com/badges/f23ae19b-0370-4ca1-99d1-418403a8faea/linked_in_profile > Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections > > * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical > Inspectors (IAEI) > * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy > Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Provider > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2020, 4:34 PM Bradley Bassett > wrote: > > The best price I've found for the handbook is at Barnes & Noble. > If you go into the store you have to ask for the internet price. > Also at least at my store they had it behind the counter in case > you go looking for it. > > Brad > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 3:26 PM Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > We are going backwards in this world. Thanks for making us > less productive, NFPA. #Greedy. > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 5:26 PM gary easton > wrote: > > It’s a subscription.  The digital you pay for access each > year. > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 5:20 PM Glenn Burt > > wrote: > > It is true, I have both 2017 and 2014 in PDF format. > > They must be concerned about piracy. > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and > spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *August Goers > *Date: *Wed, Jan 8, 2020 3:48 PM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 not available as > a portable PDF? > > I've heard from multiple sources and confirmed myself > that you can't get the portable pdf of the NEC > starting with the 2020 edition. The link that Lorenzo > shared seems to indicate that older versions including > 2017 edition are available in a digital format. > > image.png > > August > Luminalt > > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 12:35 PM Christopher Warfel > > wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I was told that the NEC 2020 will not be available > as a file. You can > only access on line, or via the book.  Has anyone > confirmed this? It > seems pretty certain.   How many times is one out > in the field and needs > to reference the NEC?  Now to do so, you will need > the book or a > connection to the Internet.  I am having a hard > time believing that NFPA > would be this short-sighted.  Chris > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > Sent from Gmail Mobile > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 74126 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Sun Jan 12 13:48:34 2020 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 10:48:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC in PDF format not availaible for 2020 In-Reply-To: References: <897492e2-261d-e8b7-ed44-c88d596dce33@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: NFPA does make its Codes and Standards available for free online: https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Standards/All-Codes-and-Standards/Free-access?order_src=C900&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqfz4itz-5gIVFarsCh3elQ5UEAAYASAAEgKQ5_D_BwE As does the ICC: https://codes.iccsafe.org/category/I-Codes However, I too am irritated that the 2020 NEC is not available as a downloadable PDF, and I will do whatever I can to pass on that message. Best, Rebekah Tel: 336.266.8800 On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 9:28 AM Martin Herzfeld wrote: > FYI Only - In California, the Codes are found here: > https://www.dgs.ca.gov/BSC/Codes#@ViewBag.JumpTo > > All the best, > > Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified > Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC > 10037 > Adjunct Professor, Energy, American River College > Contract Training Provider (CTP) > > California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, > D56, D31, C-7 > Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, > Instrumentation > > Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections > Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 > OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer > CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG > > * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors > * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy > Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Provider > > > On Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 6:11 AM Christopher Warfel < > cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > >> I think that once a building code is adopted it must be made available at >> no charge. You bring up a good point. The NEC is incorporated into many >> state's and the International Code. Why can they charge for all access? >> Chris >> On 1/8/2020 6:36 PM, William Miller wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I find the PDF version best for my uses. A portable, searchable, >> bookmark-able and cut and paste-able resource is essential for my work flow. >> >> >> >> I don’t think the NFPA is considering the needs of the field engineer >> when eliminating the PDF version. Maybe there are some members of this >> forum that have the ear of the NFPA and can put in a word to restore the >> portable version. >> >> >> >> As an aside, I find it troubling that one has to pay to read any law of >> the land. If a society makes rules, they should be freely available for >> all to review, free of charge. That is just my altruistic bias. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> Miller Solar >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Jan 13 15:19:58 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 12:19:58 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snap-n-rack edge guard screen Message-ID: <0b28843f2515e08f3db375e34602188a@mail.gmail.com> Friends: We are tasked with installing a Snap-n-rack edge screen for the first time. Are there words of wisdom anyone can offer on this project? We will be needing the add-a-lip and have those on order. Roof is S barrel tile. Thanks in advance… William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Mon Jan 13 15:58:00 2020 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 15:58:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snap-n-rack edge guard screen In-Reply-To: <0b28843f2515e08f3db375e34602188a@mail.gmail.com> References: <0b28843f2515e08f3db375e34602188a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <02d82fa41de7630a59b1da37a6d72ff8@solar-energy-solutions.com> We routinely use more clips than ship with the product in order to keep it securely fastened. I think 40 ship with it and we typically use 50. Thanks, Matt -- Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions, LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at sesre.com On 2020-01-13 15:19, William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > We are tasked with installing a Snap-n-rack edge screen for the first time. Are there words of wisdom anyone can offer on this project? We will be needing the add-a-lip and have those on order. Roof is S barrel tile. > > Thanks in advance... > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com [1] > > CA Lic. 773985 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [3] Links: ------ [1] http://www.millersolar.com/ [2] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [3] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From findsolar at herzfeld.org Tue Jan 14 12:11:57 2020 From: findsolar at herzfeld.org (Martin Herzfeld) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 09:11:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs In-Reply-To: References: <009c01d41894$76eac1f0$64c045d0$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: Simply, an emphasis is now also on the location of ESSs in non-habitable and habitable spaces and the size in kWh. BTW, I attended a day of of a two day free IAFF Conference in California announced through the IAEI, with UL found here: https://connect.ul.com/meeting-challenges-of-built-environment-sacramento.html#meetingagenda All the best, Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037 https://www.youracclaim.com/badges/a54a49a9-31cb-4f52-b35f-9d7c90630bb9/public_url Adjunct Professor, Energy, American River College Contract Training Provider (CTP) California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, D56, D31, C-7 Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Provider On Tue, Jul 10, 2018, 2:38 PM Wayne Irwin wrote: > Calfire code seems to be the standard being somewhat enforced as the > standard nationwide. > > Wayne Irwin, > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > http://PureEnergySolar.com > http://SolarChargingStation.net > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Daniel Young > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 10, 2018 5:25:01 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs > > > Hey Gary, > > > > Ohio Fire Code does cover this. It’s a matter of if the Fire marshal in > you project area wants to waive or alter the requirements. > > > > http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/1301:7-7-06v1 > > > > Specifically 605.11.1.2 is for residential buildings. There is some > conflict in terms of Hip roofs in the code there. 605.11.1.2.2 states a > single 3ft path on one edge or another for a hip roof, but 605.11.1.2.4 > states that an 18 space is allowed when modules are mounted on two adjacent > roof planes with a hip roof. > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *gary easton > *Sent:* Monday, July 09, 2018 3:39 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > What are you all seeing required as setbacks post 2017? I am having > inspectors vary between wanting a 3' lane at the bottom and sides to > allowing the array down to the gutter, and from requiring between 18" and > 3' at the ridge. > > > > -- > > Gary Easton > Appalachian Renewable Power > > Stewart, Ohio 45778 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > > T: 740-277-8498 > > www.arp-solar.com > > > “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then > you win.” > > ~Ghandi > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 14 21:03:59 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 19:03:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tripping gfi Message-ID: Hi wrenches, I've got an off grid customer that has an external PV GFI breaker in his charge controller that trips when the dryer is on. He snuck in an electric dryer uggh However, I am curious what the mechanism might be to cause the trip. Will a ground fault on the AC side of an inverter trip a PV GFI on a charge controller? I haven't dug too deep into this yet but maybe someone else has seen this. Thanks in advance for your help. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Jan 14 21:51:18 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 19:51:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tripping gfi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If there is any current flow between DC negative and ground anywhere in the system, it will trip.  I would check the dryer for a ground fault, and I would check the system to make sure Neutral is not bonded to ground in more than one place (very common). Most importantly, I would make sure that negative is not bonded anywhere except at the DC GFI in the controller. My guess is that DC is bonded at the negative shunt as is normal with many DC load centers, and that the dryer is a big enough load that pulls enough DC amps, so that some of DC negative is flowing back through the ground.  Probably doesn't trip normally, because at lower loads, less than an amp is flowing on the ground. Just guessing, Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/14/20 7:03 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi wrenches, > > I've got an off grid customer that has an external PV GFI breaker in > his charge controller that trips when the dryer is on. He snuck in an > electric dryer uggh > > However, I am curious what the mechanism might be to cause the trip. > Will a ground fault on the AC side of an inverter trip a PV GFI on a > charge controller? > > I haven't dug too deep into this yet but maybe someone else has seen this. > > > Thanks in advance for your help. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jan 14 22:19:48 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 17:19:48 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tripping gfi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ray Yes you can have a GFI trip as a result of something on the AC side, I had a hard line data line cause a trip of a GFI even though you would not see anything on a meter, had to use a optical bridge to connect, granted this was Sunpower 327's on a Outback 7200 off grid but it can happen. This is not to say that there is not a problem with the dryer however, just that there are other possibilities. Jerry On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 4:51 PM Ray wrote: > If there is any current flow between DC negative and ground anywhere in > the system, it will trip. I would check the dryer for a ground fault, and > I would check the system to make sure Neutral is not bonded to ground in > more than one place (very common). Most importantly, I would make sure that > negative is not bonded anywhere except at the DC GFI in the controller. > > My guess is that DC is bonded at the negative shunt as is normal with many > DC load centers, and that the dryer is a big enough load that pulls enough > DC amps, so that some of DC negative is flowing back through the ground. > Probably doesn't trip normally, because at lower loads, less than an amp is > flowing on the ground. > > Just guessing, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 1/14/20 7:03 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi wrenches, > > I've got an off grid customer that has an external PV GFI breaker in his > charge controller that trips when the dryer is on. He snuck in an electric > dryer uggh > > However, I am curious what the mechanism might be to cause the trip. Will > a ground fault on the AC side of an inverter trip a PV GFI on a charge > controller? > > I haven't dug too deep into this yet but maybe someone else has seen this. > > > Thanks in advance for your help. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jan 14 23:01:08 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 20:01:08 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tripping gfi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Would be interesting to see if it happens if they are using the generator. Jay Peltz power. > On Jan 14, 2020, at 6:04 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > >  > Hi wrenches, > > I've got an off grid customer that has an external PV GFI breaker in his charge controller that trips when the dryer is on. He snuck in an electric dryer uggh > > However, I am curious what the mechanism might be to cause the trip. Will a ground fault on the AC side of an inverter trip a PV GFI on a charge controller? > > I haven't dug too deep into this yet but maybe someone else has seen this. > > > Thanks in advance for your help. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Jan 15 02:07:14 2020 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 02:07:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs In-Reply-To: References: <009c01d41894$76eac1f0$64c045d0$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: <97282c47-a83c-ed26-dd1b-5b120dbbe39f@entech-engineering.com> The setbacks you noted are similar to those in NY.  There are exceptions to the setbacks based upon alternative access to the roof.  These are amendments to the NY Building Code, which amended the IBC/IFC regarding this aspect of solar installations.  Email me off list if you would like slides from a PPT presentation we created on this topic.  Chris On 1/14/2020 12:11 PM, Martin Herzfeld wrote: > Simply, an emphasis is now also on the location of ESSs in > non-habitable and habitable spaces and the size in kWh. > > BTW, I attended a day of of a two day free IAFF Conference in > California announced through the IAEI, with UL found here: > https://connect.ul.com/meeting-challenges-of-built-environment-sacramento.html#meetingagenda > > > All the best, > > Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified > Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional > #IREC 10037 > https://www.youracclaim.com/badges/a54a49a9-31cb-4f52-b35f-9d7c90630bb9/public_url > Adjunct Professor, Energy, American River College > Contract Training Provider (CTP) > > California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782  C46, C10, > D56, D31, C-7 > Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, > Instrumentation > > Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections > Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 > OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 > CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG > > * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors > * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy > Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Provider > On Tue, Jul 10, 2018, 2:38 PM Wayne Irwin > wrote: > > Calfire code seems to be the standard being somewhat enforced as > the standard nationwide. > > Wayne Irwin, > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > http://PureEnergySolar.com > http://SolarChargingStation.net > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If > you are not the intended recipient and have received this message > in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me > immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your > computer system. Thank you. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches > on behalf of > Daniel Young > > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 10, 2018 5:25:01 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs > > Hey Gary, > > Ohio Fire Code does cover this. It’s a matter of if the Fire > marshal in you project area wants to waive or alter the requirements. > > http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/1301:7-7-06v1 > > Specifically 605.11.1.2 is for residential buildings. There is > some conflict in terms of Hip roofs in the code there. > 605.11.1.2.2 states a single 3ft path on one edge or another for a > hip roof, but 605.11.1.2.4 states that an 18 space is allowed when > modules are mounted on two adjacent roof planes with a hip roof. > > With Regards, > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional^TM : Cert #031508-90 > > *From:* RE-wrenches > *On Behalf Of > *gary easton > *Sent:* Monday, July 09, 2018 3:39 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs > > Hello Wrenches, > > What are you all seeing required as setbacks post 2017?  I am > having inspectors vary between wanting a 3' lane at the bottom and > sides to allowing the array down to the gutter, and from requiring > between 18" and 3' at the ridge. > > -- > > Gary Easton > Appalachian Renewable Power > > Stewart, Ohio 45778 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > T: 740-277-8498 > > www.arp-solar.com > > > “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight > you. Then you win.” > > ~Ghandi > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Jan 15 08:11:13 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 06:11:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tripping gfi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had him check to see if it trips once the generator is latched and he said it does not trip. I thought I had verified all of the DC and AC bonding occurred only once in the system but its been a few years and it was a construction project so someone might have decided to bond the main service after we had left. I'll report back on what I find out. Thanks On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 12:49 AM Jay wrote: > Would be interesting to see if it happens if they are using the generator. > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > > On Jan 14, 2020, at 6:04 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > > >  > > Hi wrenches, > > > > I've got an off grid customer that has an external PV GFI breaker in his > charge controller that trips when the dryer is on. He snuck in an electric > dryer uggh > > > > However, I am curious what the mechanism might be to cause the trip. > Will a ground fault on the AC side of an inverter trip a PV GFI on a charge > controller? > > > > I haven't dug too deep into this yet but maybe someone else has seen > this. > > > > > > Thanks in advance for your help. > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Wed Jan 15 08:43:02 2020 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 07:43:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tripping gfi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2F2AB846-13E5-4709-B6F8-8521FA41B838@mavericksolar.com> Make sure the electric dryer is using a four prong outlet and pigtail. It could be that the smarts of the dryer is using 120v for its computer and with only three wires, current would flow on the ground. Thank you, Maverick > On Jan 14, 2020, at 8:04 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > >  > Hi wrenches, > > I've got an off grid customer that has an external PV GFI breaker in his charge controller that trips when the dryer is on. He snuck in an electric dryer uggh > > However, I am curious what the mechanism might be to cause the trip. Will a ground fault on the AC side of an inverter trip a PV GFI on a charge controller? > > I haven't dug too deep into this yet but maybe someone else has seen this. > > > Thanks in advance for your help. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jan 15 12:05:51 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 09:05:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tripping gfi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What brand of CC please? Sorry if I missed it...--Dave Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 19:51:18 -0700, Ray wrote: If there is any current flow between DC negative and ground anywhere in the system, it will trip. I would check the dryer for a ground fault, and I would check the system to make sure Neutral is not bonded to ground in more than one place (very common). Most importantly, I would make sure that negative is not bonded anywhere except at the DC GFI in the controller. My guess is that DC is bonded at the negative shunt as is normal with many DC load centers, and that the dryer is a big enough load that pulls enough DC amps, so that some of DC negative is flowing back through the ground. Probably doesn't trip normally, because at lower loads, less than an amp is flowing on the ground. Just guessing, Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/14/20 7:03 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: Hi wrenches, I've got an off grid customer that has an external PV GFI breaker in his charge controller that trips when the dryer is on. He snuck in an electric dryer uggh However, I am curious what the mechanism might be to cause the trip. Will a ground fault on the AC side of an inverter trip a PV GFI on a charge controller? I haven't dug too deep into this yet but maybe someone else has seen this. Thanks in advance for your help. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [3] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [4] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [5] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [7] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Wed Jan 15 12:23:19 2020 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 10:23:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tripping gfi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9B1459A9-59EE-410E-A627-A615F7D6B000@skyfireenergy.com> This may, or may not provide some helpful info.... https://www.electricianinformationresource.com/dc-circuit-breakers.html?fbclid=IwAR0iQzT58cgAbBEcbtg2N_ETDV5qkC31Qz7_py83pgaoLm_l0ZPGNAmN2KQ Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 > On Jan 14, 2020, at 7:03 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi wrenches, > > I've got an off grid customer that has an external PV GFI breaker in his charge controller that trips when the dryer is on. He snuck in an electric dryer uggh > > However, I am curious what the mechanism might be to cause the trip. Will a ground fault on the AC side of an inverter trip a PV GFI on a charge controller? > > I haven't dug too deep into this yet but maybe someone else has seen this. > > > Thanks in advance for your help. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Jan 16 07:27:25 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 05:27:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tripping gfi In-Reply-To: <9B1459A9-59EE-410E-A627-A615F7D6B000@skyfireenergy.com> References: <9B1459A9-59EE-410E-A627-A615F7D6B000@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: As a follow up, we went up there to assess. Sure enough, there were two AC neutral to ground bonds. We will see if this fixes the problem. Thanks! On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 10:23 AM Benn Kilburn wrote: > This may, or may not provide some helpful info.... > > > https://www.electricianinformationresource.com/dc-circuit-breakers.html?fbclid=IwAR0iQzT58cgAbBEcbtg2N_ETDV5qkC31Qz7_py83pgaoLm_l0ZPGNAmN2KQ > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy > 780-906-7807 > > On Jan 14, 2020, at 7:03 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi wrenches, > > I've got an off grid customer that has an external PV GFI breaker in his > charge controller that trips when the dryer is on. He snuck in an electric > dryer uggh > > However, I am curious what the mechanism might be to cause the trip. Will > a ground fault on the AC side of an inverter trip a PV GFI on a charge > controller? > > I haven't dug too deep into this yet but maybe someone else has seen this. > > > Thanks in advance for your help. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Jan 21 01:16:10 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 22:16:10 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More GFI tripping problems Message-ID: <56679a9ab5b408e8b116bdc664df43da@mail.gmail.com> Colleagues: Not too long ago we finished a large off-grid residential power system installation. It has a three-stack Radian 8048A with three FM80s and about 3,000 AH of battery. The home has all the bells and whistles including VFD drive pool pumps and home automation. We have been experiencing some GFI tripping on various AC branch circuits. I checked the bonding scenario and it appears to be correct: One bond only at the AC Combiner output of the inverters. We have checked N-G voltages and they seem minimal. We did find some high THD when the generator is charging the batteries, as high as 19%. I am not sure if this is voltage or current waveform distortion but I ordered a Fluke power quality meter and will be testing again as soon as it arrives. An Outback engineer told me distortion of a generator AC waveform under charging loads is normal. Unlike the recent case reviewed on this forum--where a specific appliance seemed to be causing problems in the PV GFI circuit, I have no indication that one appliance is the culprit and the problem is on the AC side. As an aside, I have always been interested in the design of PV GFI technology. It seems counterintuitive to me to deliberately un-bond any ground-referenced system and run that bond through a breaker pole. Nonetheless, the PV GFI circuit has not opened in this scenario. This does not mean there is no ground fault current, it means there is not a ground fault current in excess of 1 amps. I have reviewed all of the recent and historic posts about GFI tripping and I don’t see anything that might help. I suspect we have plumbed the depths of Wrenches current knowledge on this subject, but I am laying out the scenario in case any part of this description elicits a recollection. When we get this figured out, I will report back. Sincerely, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jan 21 10:19:02 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 07:19:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More GFI tripping problems In-Reply-To: <56679a9ab5b408e8b116bdc664df43da@mail.gmail.com> References: <56679a9ab5b408e8b116bdc664df43da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William Just so it is clear, the outback on the DC side GFI is .5 amp not a 1. amp Jerry On Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 6:41 AM William Miller wrote: > Colleagues: > > > > Not too long ago we finished a large off-grid residential power system > installation. It has a three-stack Radian 8048A with three FM80s and about > 3,000 AH of battery. The home has all the bells and whistles including VFD > drive pool pumps and home automation. > > > > We have been experiencing some GFI tripping on various AC branch > circuits. I checked the bonding scenario and it appears to be correct: > One bond only at the AC Combiner output of the inverters. > > > > We have checked N-G voltages and they seem minimal. We did find some high > THD when the generator is charging the batteries, as high as 19%. I am not > sure if this is voltage or current waveform distortion but I ordered a > Fluke power quality meter and will be testing again as soon as it arrives. > An Outback engineer told me distortion of a generator AC waveform under > charging loads is normal. > > > > Unlike the recent case reviewed on this forum--where a specific appliance > seemed to be causing problems in the PV GFI circuit, I have no indication > that one appliance is the culprit and the problem is on the AC side. > > > > As an aside, I have always been interested in the design of PV GFI > technology. It seems counterintuitive to me to deliberately un-bond any > ground-referenced system and run that bond through a breaker pole. > Nonetheless, the PV GFI circuit has not opened in this scenario. This does > not mean there is no ground fault current, it means there is not a ground > fault current in excess of 1 amps. > > > > I have reviewed all of the recent and historic posts about GFI tripping > and I don’t see anything that might help. I suspect we have plumbed the > depths of Wrenches current knowledge on this subject, but I am laying out > the scenario in case any part of this description elicits a recollection. > When we get this figured out, I will report back. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jan 21 12:10:16 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 12:10:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter Output Circuit OCPD Meltdown Message-ID: (System installed by another contractor...) I have been tasked with assisting in the investigation of damage in a subpanel used to combine inverter output circuits (5 strings of microinverters). There appears to be no damage to conductors or other system components. It looks like the damage started at the stabs of the bus bar where the breakers connect. Picture attached. Here are a few clues: - Monitoring indicates that damage occurred overnight a few weeks ago. That night we had rain as a winter front came through Florida, possibly lightning. The prior day everything was fine. - The next morning, only 2 of 5 strings started producing power, but 4 of 5 strings were reporting data to the Envoy. The two strings that were reporting but not producing power reported 0Vac and Voc on the DC side of the microinverters. - A couple of weeks later, 1 of the 2 strings that was producing power quit doing so, but continued reporting data. - Customer discovered damage yesterday. - About a week before the initial damage apparently manifested itself, another contractor installed a whole house generator transfer switch on the line side of the PV interconnection. The generator has never been run (there is not even a LP fuel source on site yet). I pointed out that the solar interconnection, which was previously on the supply side, would need to be moved to the supply side of the generator transfer switch's main breaker before operation. During the transfer switch installation, the contractor also switched line 1 and line 2, but that shouldn't really matter, except for Enphase consumption monitoring, which was messed up by the swapping of the lines. So I'm looking for ideas. I'm wondering if the OCPD would be a likely place for lightning damage to manifest itself. I can't visually detect any other damage anywhere else. I can't imagine that the transfer switch installation would have anything to do with it, but the timing is interesting. Other than replacing the subpanel and OCPD and firing it back up (no pun intended), I'm not sure how to approach further investigation. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CB Box 3.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 499387 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Jan 21 12:39:59 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 09:39:59 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter Output Circuit OCPD Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason - It certainly appears that there was some sort of surge or short. We've had a few cases where microinverter branch circuit end termination caps were left off or fell off and shorted out during rain storms. You might want to double check that those are all in place. We've also had cases were microinvers themselves developed internal shorts. This third comment is only anecdotal - I've been in touch with a couple of other installers that have had back-fed breaker issues specifically with Eaton brand breakers burning up the bus stabs. Our company has had one unexplained issue where the inverter output breaker bus stabs were burned up with Eaton breakers. I have no idea whether the breakers were faulty or what, but thought I'd just mention it in case there is a pattern. Best, August Luminalt On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 9:10 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > (System installed by another contractor...) > > I have been tasked with assisting in the investigation of damage in a > subpanel used to combine inverter output circuits (5 strings of > microinverters). There appears to be no damage to conductors or other > system components. It looks like the damage started at the stabs of the bus > bar where the breakers connect. Picture attached. Here are a few clues: > > - Monitoring indicates that damage occurred overnight a few weeks ago. > That night we had rain as a winter front came through Florida, possibly > lightning. The prior day everything was fine. > - The next morning, only 2 of 5 strings started producing power, but 4 > of 5 strings were reporting data to the Envoy. The two strings that were > reporting but not producing power reported 0Vac and Voc on the DC side of > the microinverters. > - A couple of weeks later, 1 of the 2 strings that was producing power > quit doing so, but continued reporting data. > - Customer discovered damage yesterday. > - About a week before the initial damage apparently manifested itself, > another contractor installed a whole house generator transfer switch on the > line side of the PV interconnection. The generator has never been run > (there is not even a LP fuel source on site yet). I pointed out that the > solar interconnection, which was previously on the supply side, would need > to be moved to the supply side of the generator transfer switch's main > breaker before operation. During the transfer switch installation, the > contractor also switched line 1 and line 2, but that shouldn't > really matter, except for Enphase consumption monitoring, which was messed > up by the swapping of the lines. > > So I'm looking for ideas. I'm wondering if the OCPD would be a likely > place for lightning damage to manifest itself. I can't visually detect any > other damage anywhere else. I can't imagine that the transfer switch > installation would have anything to do with it, but the timing is > interesting. Other than replacing the subpanel and OCPD and firing it back > up (no pun intended), I'm not sure how to approach further investigation. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Tue Jan 21 12:45:43 2020 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 12:45:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter Output Circuit OCPD Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, I have had an experience servicing other's arrays where they used PVC on the roof. The LB cover does not hold up over time and then water and snow were getting into the conduit, which came straight down into the top of that same kind of Eaton panel. Corrosion caused at least one breaker in there to fail. Another thing I've seen burn marks on a breaker like that just due to loose connection (is what it appeared to be, anyway) arcing over time. Good luck, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 12:40 PM August Goers wrote: > Hi Jason - > > It certainly appears that there was some sort of surge or short. We've had > a few cases where microinverter branch circuit end termination caps were > left off or fell off and shorted out during rain storms. You might want to > double check that those are all in place. We've also had cases were > microinvers themselves developed internal shorts. This third comment is > only anecdotal - I've been in touch with a couple of other installers that > have had back-fed breaker issues specifically with Eaton brand breakers > burning up the bus stabs. Our company has had one unexplained issue where > the inverter output breaker bus stabs were burned up with Eaton breakers. I > have no idea whether the breakers were faulty or what, but thought I'd just > mention it in case there is a pattern. > > Best, August > Luminalt > > > On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 9:10 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> (System installed by another contractor...) >> >> I have been tasked with assisting in the investigation of damage in a >> subpanel used to combine inverter output circuits (5 strings of >> microinverters). There appears to be no damage to conductors or other >> system components. It looks like the damage started at the stabs of the bus >> bar where the breakers connect. Picture attached. Here are a few clues: >> >> - Monitoring indicates that damage occurred overnight a few weeks >> ago. That night we had rain as a winter front came through Florida, >> possibly lightning. The prior day everything was fine. >> - The next morning, only 2 of 5 strings started producing power, but >> 4 of 5 strings were reporting data to the Envoy. The two strings that were >> reporting but not producing power reported 0Vac and Voc on the DC side of >> the microinverters. >> - A couple of weeks later, 1 of the 2 strings that was producing >> power quit doing so, but continued reporting data. >> - Customer discovered damage yesterday. >> - About a week before the initial damage apparently manifested >> itself, another contractor installed a whole house generator transfer >> switch on the line side of the PV interconnection. The generator has never >> been run (there is not even a LP fuel source on site yet). I pointed out >> that the solar interconnection, which was previously on the supply side, >> would need to be moved to the supply side of the generator transfer >> switch's main breaker before operation. During the transfer switch >> installation, the contractor also switched line 1 and line 2, but that >> shouldn't really matter, except for Enphase consumption monitoring, which >> was messed up by the swapping of the lines. >> >> So I'm looking for ideas. I'm wondering if the OCPD would be a likely >> place for lightning damage to manifest itself. I can't visually detect any >> other damage anywhere else. I can't imagine that the transfer switch >> installation would have anything to do with it, but the timing is >> interesting. Other than replacing the subpanel and OCPD and firing it back >> up (no pun intended), I'm not sure how to approach further investigation. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Tue Jan 21 12:58:02 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 12:58:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter Output Circuit OCPD Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, Have you calculated your back-fed amapacity allowance to confirm it complies with the 120% busbar rule as per 705.12? Best, Chris On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 12:40 PM August Goers wrote: > Hi Jason - > > It certainly appears that there was some sort of surge or short. We've had > a few cases where microinverter branch circuit end termination caps were > left off or fell off and shorted out during rain storms. You might want to > double check that those are all in place. We've also had cases were > microinvers themselves developed internal shorts. This third comment is > only anecdotal - I've been in touch with a couple of other installers that > have had back-fed breaker issues specifically with Eaton brand breakers > burning up the bus stabs. Our company has had one unexplained issue where > the inverter output breaker bus stabs were burned up with Eaton breakers. I > have no idea whether the breakers were faulty or what, but thought I'd just > mention it in case there is a pattern. > > Best, August > Luminalt > > > On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 9:10 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> (System installed by another contractor...) >> >> I have been tasked with assisting in the investigation of damage in a >> subpanel used to combine inverter output circuits (5 strings of >> microinverters). There appears to be no damage to conductors or other >> system components. It looks like the damage started at the stabs of the bus >> bar where the breakers connect. Picture attached. Here are a few clues: >> >> - Monitoring indicates that damage occurred overnight a few weeks >> ago. That night we had rain as a winter front came through Florida, >> possibly lightning. The prior day everything was fine. >> - The next morning, only 2 of 5 strings started producing power, but >> 4 of 5 strings were reporting data to the Envoy. The two strings that were >> reporting but not producing power reported 0Vac and Voc on the DC side of >> the microinverters. >> - A couple of weeks later, 1 of the 2 strings that was producing >> power quit doing so, but continued reporting data. >> - Customer discovered damage yesterday. >> - About a week before the initial damage apparently manifested >> itself, another contractor installed a whole house generator transfer >> switch on the line side of the PV interconnection. The generator has never >> been run (there is not even a LP fuel source on site yet). I pointed out >> that the solar interconnection, which was previously on the supply side, >> would need to be moved to the supply side of the generator transfer >> switch's main breaker before operation. During the transfer switch >> installation, the contractor also switched line 1 and line 2, but that >> shouldn't really matter, except for Enphase consumption monitoring, which >> was messed up by the swapping of the lines. >> >> So I'm looking for ideas. I'm wondering if the OCPD would be a likely >> place for lightning damage to manifest itself. I can't visually detect any >> other damage anywhere else. I can't imagine that the transfer switch >> installation would have anything to do with it, but the timing is >> interesting. Other than replacing the subpanel and OCPD and firing it back >> up (no pun intended), I'm not sure how to approach further investigation. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jan 21 13:16:07 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 13:16:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter Output Circuit OCPD Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes - It's only 56A total inverter output rating on a 125A bus. Max string is 13A inverter output rating on 20A OCPD. On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 12:58 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote: > Jason, > > Have you calculated your back-fed amapacity allowance to confirm it > complies with the 120% busbar rule as per 705.12? > > Best, > Chris > > On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 12:40 PM August Goers wrote: > >> Hi Jason - >> >> It certainly appears that there was some sort of surge or short. We've >> had a few cases where microinverter branch circuit end termination caps >> were left off or fell off and shorted out during rain storms. You might >> want to double check that those are all in place. We've also had cases were >> microinvers themselves developed internal shorts. This third comment is >> only anecdotal - I've been in touch with a couple of other installers that >> have had back-fed breaker issues specifically with Eaton brand breakers >> burning up the bus stabs. Our company has had one unexplained issue where >> the inverter output breaker bus stabs were burned up with Eaton breakers. I >> have no idea whether the breakers were faulty or what, but thought I'd just >> mention it in case there is a pattern. >> >> Best, August >> Luminalt >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 9:10 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> (System installed by another contractor...) >>> >>> I have been tasked with assisting in the investigation of damage in a >>> subpanel used to combine inverter output circuits (5 strings of >>> microinverters). There appears to be no damage to conductors or other >>> system components. It looks like the damage started at the stabs of the bus >>> bar where the breakers connect. Picture attached. Here are a few clues: >>> >>> - Monitoring indicates that damage occurred overnight a few weeks >>> ago. That night we had rain as a winter front came through Florida, >>> possibly lightning. The prior day everything was fine. >>> - The next morning, only 2 of 5 strings started producing power, but >>> 4 of 5 strings were reporting data to the Envoy. The two strings that were >>> reporting but not producing power reported 0Vac and Voc on the DC side of >>> the microinverters. >>> - A couple of weeks later, 1 of the 2 strings that was producing >>> power quit doing so, but continued reporting data. >>> - Customer discovered damage yesterday. >>> - About a week before the initial damage apparently manifested >>> itself, another contractor installed a whole house generator transfer >>> switch on the line side of the PV interconnection. The generator has never >>> been run (there is not even a LP fuel source on site yet). I pointed out >>> that the solar interconnection, which was previously on the supply side, >>> would need to be moved to the supply side of the generator transfer >>> switch's main breaker before operation. During the transfer switch >>> installation, the contractor also switched line 1 and line 2, but that >>> shouldn't really matter, except for Enphase consumption monitoring, which >>> was messed up by the swapping of the lines. >>> >>> So I'm looking for ideas. I'm wondering if the OCPD would be a likely >>> place for lightning damage to manifest itself. I can't visually detect any >>> other damage anywhere else. I can't imagine that the transfer switch >>> installation would have anything to do with it, but the timing is >>> interesting. Other than replacing the subpanel and OCPD and firing it back >>> up (no pun intended), I'm not sure how to approach further investigation. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jan 21 13:23:40 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 13:23:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter Output Circuit OCPD Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just remembered this... There was a tripping breaker here almost immediately after installation. We investigated the string and found no issues, including checking the termination cap (on all strings). We reset the breaker a few times and it would run for days without issue, then trip. Then we went back once to reset the breaker and heard a huge pop and smoke was billowing out of a microinverter. It was replaced under warranty. The system ran for months without issue after that. Now I'm suspecting that that incident compromised the breaker and it has been arcing for a while and just manifested itself much later down the line. The last thing I want to do is have this subpanel and breakers changed out and then have the incident reoccur. We will double check for water, loose connections, termination caps, etc, but if there is an internal fault in cabling or a microinverter, it's kinda hard to nail down these issues without replacing a whole lot of components. Jason On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 12:40 PM August Goers wrote: > Hi Jason - > > It certainly appears that there was some sort of surge or short. We've had > a few cases where microinverter branch circuit end termination caps were > left off or fell off and shorted out during rain storms. You might want to > double check that those are all in place. We've also had cases were > microinvers themselves developed internal shorts. This third comment is > only anecdotal - I've been in touch with a couple of other installers that > have had back-fed breaker issues specifically with Eaton brand breakers > burning up the bus stabs. Our company has had one unexplained issue where > the inverter output breaker bus stabs were burned up with Eaton breakers. I > have no idea whether the breakers were faulty or what, but thought I'd just > mention it in case there is a pattern. > > Best, August > Luminalt > > > On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 9:10 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> (System installed by another contractor...) >> >> I have been tasked with assisting in the investigation of damage in a >> subpanel used to combine inverter output circuits (5 strings of >> microinverters). There appears to be no damage to conductors or other >> system components. It looks like the damage started at the stabs of the bus >> bar where the breakers connect. Picture attached. Here are a few clues: >> >> - Monitoring indicates that damage occurred overnight a few weeks >> ago. That night we had rain as a winter front came through Florida, >> possibly lightning. The prior day everything was fine. >> - The next morning, only 2 of 5 strings started producing power, but >> 4 of 5 strings were reporting data to the Envoy. The two strings that were >> reporting but not producing power reported 0Vac and Voc on the DC side of >> the microinverters. >> - A couple of weeks later, 1 of the 2 strings that was producing >> power quit doing so, but continued reporting data. >> - Customer discovered damage yesterday. >> - About a week before the initial damage apparently manifested >> itself, another contractor installed a whole house generator transfer >> switch on the line side of the PV interconnection. The generator has never >> been run (there is not even a LP fuel source on site yet). I pointed out >> that the solar interconnection, which was previously on the supply side, >> would need to be moved to the supply side of the generator transfer >> switch's main breaker before operation. During the transfer switch >> installation, the contractor also switched line 1 and line 2, but that >> shouldn't really matter, except for Enphase consumption monitoring, which >> was messed up by the swapping of the lines. >> >> So I'm looking for ideas. I'm wondering if the OCPD would be a likely >> place for lightning damage to manifest itself. I can't visually detect any >> other damage anywhere else. I can't imagine that the transfer switch >> installation would have anything to do with it, but the timing is >> interesting. Other than replacing the subpanel and OCPD and firing it back >> up (no pun intended), I'm not sure how to approach further investigation. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jan 21 14:51:57 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 11:51:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter Output Circuit OCPD Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Cant tell anymore but l had a buss failure due to water getting on buss and pealing the tin off the buss and the aluminum base will light up real quick. Jerry On Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 9:10 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > (System installed by another contractor...) > > I have been tasked with assisting in the investigation of damage in a > subpanel used to combine inverter output circuits (5 strings of > microinverters). There appears to be no damage to conductors or other > system components. It looks like the damage started at the stabs of the bus > bar where the breakers connect. Picture attached. Here are a few clues: > > - Monitoring indicates that damage occurred overnight a few weeks ago. > That night we had rain as a winter front came through Florida, possibly > lightning. The prior day everything was fine. > - The next morning, only 2 of 5 strings started producing power, but 4 > of 5 strings were reporting data to the Envoy. The two strings that were > reporting but not producing power reported 0Vac and Voc on the DC side of > the microinverters. > - A couple of weeks later, 1 of the 2 strings that was producing power > quit doing so, but continued reporting data. > - Customer discovered damage yesterday. > - About a week before the initial damage apparently manifested itself, > another contractor installed a whole house generator transfer switch on the > line side of the PV interconnection. The generator has never been run > (there is not even a LP fuel source on site yet). I pointed out that the > solar interconnection, which was previously on the supply side, would need > to be moved to the supply side of the generator transfer switch's main > breaker before operation. During the transfer switch installation, the > contractor also switched line 1 and line 2, but that shouldn't > really matter, except for Enphase consumption monitoring, which was messed > up by the swapping of the lines. > > So I'm looking for ideas. I'm wondering if the OCPD would be a likely > place for lightning damage to manifest itself. I can't visually detect any > other damage anywhere else. I can't imagine that the transfer switch > installation would have anything to do with it, but the timing is > interesting. Other than replacing the subpanel and OCPD and firing it back > up (no pun intended), I'm not sure how to approach further investigation. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Jan 21 18:53:11 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 16:53:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter Output Circuit OCPD Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9f63eca2-d083-6715-268d-e387ad7848fc@solarray.com> Almost every meltdown I've looked at was not due to lightning, but heat from a high resistance connection.  A lug not torqued can cause surrounding plastic to melt.  If the wrong breakers are used with the buss bar, they might snap on and work, but not be able to take the current over time.  Coupled with high humidity, you can start getting corrosion going which further increases the resistance.  Eventually, if its gets bad enough, the resistance can cause glowing red hot metal, and attached insulator plastic starts melting. Its also possible that someone knocked a wire or breaker loose? Or possibly shorted the buss doing something wrong, corrected the error, but didn't realize the buss had been damaged.    Lots of guessing, but that's how you figure it out. If it was lightning, there would be lots of related damage: Enphase inverters and other electronics cooked. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/21/20 12:51 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > Cant tell anymore but l had a buss failure due to water getting on > buss and pealing the tin off the buss and the aluminum base will light > up real quick. > Jerry > > On Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 9:10 AM Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > (System installed by another contractor...) > > I have been tasked with assisting in the investigation of damage > in a subpanel used to combine inverter output circuits (5 strings > of microinverters). There appears to be no damage to conductors or > other system components. It looks like the damage started at the > stabs of the bus bar where the breakers connect. Picture attached. > Here are a few clues: > > * Monitoring indicates that damage occurred overnight a few > weeks ago. That night we had rain as a winter front came > through Florida, possibly lightning. The prior day everything > was fine. > * The next morning, only 2 of 5 strings started producing power, > but 4 of 5 strings were reporting data to the Envoy. The two > strings that were reporting but not producing power reported > 0Vac and Voc on the DC side of the microinverters. > * A couple of weeks later, 1 of the 2 strings that was producing > power quit doing so, but continued reporting data. > * Customer discovered damage yesterday. > * About a week before the initial damage apparently manifested > itself, another contractor installed a whole house generator > transfer switch on the line side of the PV interconnection. > The generator has never been run (there is not even a LP fuel > source on site yet). I pointed out that the solar > interconnection, which was previously on the supply side, > would need to be moved to the supply side of the generator > transfer switch's main breaker before operation. During the > transfer switch installation, the contractor also switched > line 1 and line 2, but that shouldn't really matter, except > for Enphase consumption monitoring, which was messed up by the > swapping of the lines. > > So I'm looking for ideas. I'm wondering if the OCPD would be a > likely place for lightning damage to manifest itself. I can't > visually detect any other damage anywhere else. I can't imagine > that the transfer switch installation would have anything to do > with it, but the timing is interesting. Other than replacing the > subpanel and OCPD and firing it back up (no pun intended), I'm not > sure how to approach further investigation. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > * > > * > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Wed Jan 22 10:47:02 2020 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 07:47:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy - original version Message-ID: Hi Wrenches. We have a customer whose Envoy stopped working. We are looking for a used or new original envoy. Please contact me off list if you have one that you would like to part ways with. Thanks! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich at solartechvt.com Wed Jan 22 10:49:22 2020 From: rich at solartechvt.com (rich at solartechvt.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 10:49:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy - original version In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03b301d5d13b$846eb0a0$8d4c11e0$@solartechvt.com> Enphase has a store online now to be legacy products you may want to check out. Full retail price is painful - but so be it. Replacement M215, M250 , Envoys etc From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirpal Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 10:47 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy - original version Hi Wrenches. We have a customer whose Envoy stopped working. We are looking for a used or new original envoy. Please contact me off list if you have one that you would like to part ways with. Thanks! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jan 22 17:50:04 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 17:50:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy - original version In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Envoy-R I believe is what you are looking for. The problem is that if there is one still on the shelf it probably did not get a security update that was required to let it talk to Enlighten, and it is not remotely upgradeable anymore since the security update was missed. There is a way to sometimes upgrade it remotely manually, but that is a nightmare process. In other words, don't buy one on eBay. Learn from my mistake. You could upgrade them to an ENV-S-AB-120-A. I just bought one for a client from Renvu. This one can be cord connected. Or, you could upgrade them to a hardwired version, but that is quite a bit more cost and work. Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 10:47 AM Kirpal wrote: > Hi Wrenches. We have a customer whose Envoy stopped working. We are > looking for a used or new original envoy. Please contact me off list if > you have one that you would like to part ways with. > Thanks! > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jan 22 17:58:24 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 17:58:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter Output Circuit OCPD Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I discovered the issue I believe, so I thought I'd update all of you who gave me ideas on what to look for (thank you). And this is something that I stress the importance of all the time... The branch circuit pairs were not properly paired up! All of the L1 conductors went to L1 on the bus and all of the L2 to L2. However, for example, circuit 1 L1 and circuit 2 L2 were on a single 2-pole breaker. And circuit 2 L1 and circuit 1 L2 were on another breaker. Everything worked because it was electrically connected to the right bus bar. However, when there was a previous fault one of the breakers probably didn't trip when it should have as a result of the improper pairings. It was reset a few times and just kept heating up and heating up. This isn't conclusive, but it sure makes sense. It wasn't fun tracking this down with 5 strings and 5 junction boxes on the roof, but once we started continuity testing and finding strange results, it became clear. Jason Szumlanski On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 12:10 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > (System installed by another contractor...) > > I have been tasked with assisting in the investigation of damage in a > subpanel used to combine inverter output circuits (5 strings of > microinverters). There appears to be no damage to conductors or other > system components. It looks like the damage started at the stabs of the bus > bar where the breakers connect. Picture attached. Here are a few clues: > > - Monitoring indicates that damage occurred overnight a few weeks ago. > That night we had rain as a winter front came through Florida, possibly > lightning. The prior day everything was fine. > - The next morning, only 2 of 5 strings started producing power, but 4 > of 5 strings were reporting data to the Envoy. The two strings that were > reporting but not producing power reported 0Vac and Voc on the DC side of > the microinverters. > - A couple of weeks later, 1 of the 2 strings that was producing power > quit doing so, but continued reporting data. > - Customer discovered damage yesterday. > - About a week before the initial damage apparently manifested itself, > another contractor installed a whole house generator transfer switch on the > line side of the PV interconnection. The generator has never been run > (there is not even a LP fuel source on site yet). I pointed out that the > solar interconnection, which was previously on the supply side, would need > to be moved to the supply side of the generator transfer switch's main > breaker before operation. During the transfer switch installation, the > contractor also switched line 1 and line 2, but that shouldn't > really matter, except for Enphase consumption monitoring, which was messed > up by the swapping of the lines. > > So I'm looking for ideas. I'm wondering if the OCPD would be a likely > place for lightning damage to manifest itself. I can't visually detect any > other damage anywhere else. I can't imagine that the transfer switch > installation would have anything to do with it, but the timing is > interesting. Other than replacing the subpanel and OCPD and firing it back > up (no pun intended), I'm not sure how to approach further investigation. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Wed Jan 22 18:15:04 2020 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 15:15:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter Output Circuit OCPD Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for sharing, Jason. That's an excellent cautionary tale... On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 2:58 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I discovered the issue I believe, so I thought I'd update all of you who > gave me ideas on what to look for (thank you). > > And this is something that I stress the importance of all the time... > > The branch circuit pairs were not properly paired up! All of the L1 > conductors went to L1 on the bus and all of the L2 to L2. However, for > example, circuit 1 L1 and circuit 2 L2 were on a single 2-pole breaker. And > circuit 2 L1 and circuit 1 L2 were on another breaker. Everything worked > because it was electrically connected to the right bus bar. However, when > there was a previous fault one of the breakers probably didn't trip when it > should have as a result of the improper pairings. It was reset a few times > and just kept heating up and heating up. > > This isn't conclusive, but it sure makes sense. It wasn't fun tracking > this down with 5 strings and 5 junction boxes on the roof, but once we > started continuity testing and finding strange results, it became clear. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 12:10 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> (System installed by another contractor...) >> >> I have been tasked with assisting in the investigation of damage in a >> subpanel used to combine inverter output circuits (5 strings of >> microinverters). There appears to be no damage to conductors or other >> system components. It looks like the damage started at the stabs of the bus >> bar where the breakers connect. Picture attached. Here are a few clues: >> >> - Monitoring indicates that damage occurred overnight a few weeks >> ago. That night we had rain as a winter front came through Florida, >> possibly lightning. The prior day everything was fine. >> - The next morning, only 2 of 5 strings started producing power, but >> 4 of 5 strings were reporting data to the Envoy. The two strings that were >> reporting but not producing power reported 0Vac and Voc on the DC side of >> the microinverters. >> - A couple of weeks later, 1 of the 2 strings that was producing >> power quit doing so, but continued reporting data. >> - Customer discovered damage yesterday. >> - About a week before the initial damage apparently manifested >> itself, another contractor installed a whole house generator transfer >> switch on the line side of the PV interconnection. The generator has never >> been run (there is not even a LP fuel source on site yet). I pointed out >> that the solar interconnection, which was previously on the supply side, >> would need to be moved to the supply side of the generator transfer >> switch's main breaker before operation. During the transfer switch >> installation, the contractor also switched line 1 and line 2, but that >> shouldn't really matter, except for Enphase consumption monitoring, which >> was messed up by the swapping of the lines. >> >> So I'm looking for ideas. I'm wondering if the OCPD would be a likely >> place for lightning damage to manifest itself. I can't visually detect any >> other damage anywhere else. I can't imagine that the transfer switch >> installation would have anything to do with it, but the timing is >> interesting. Other than replacing the subpanel and OCPD and firing it back >> up (no pun intended), I'm not sure how to approach further investigation. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence O: 510-845-2997 x128 C: 510-867-5878 1035 Folger Ave. Berkeley, CA 94710 www.sunlightandpower.com License #326203 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Jan 23 12:44:46 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 10:44:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Refrigerator modified sine wave Message-ID: Hello wrenches, Does anyone have a recommendation for an efficient refrigerator that is built to tolerate an older Trace SW (2512 I believe) waveform? This lady has been using ConServ for many years but is getting more nervous and would like one ready to go. Thanks for any recommendations -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Jan 23 14:41:28 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 11:41:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter Output Circuit OCPD Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason - Thanks for sharing - this is a good lesson for all Wrenches. Years ago we had a dual string inverter installation where the DC positives and negatives were mixed between the two interters. String 1 positive went to inverter 1, string 1 negative went to inverter 2 and vice versa. The inverters tested out and ran for about two weeks and then one of them literally caught on fire. Since then, we implemented a policy of checking wiring coming from the roof down individually. In the case of microinverter branch circuits, this means checking each branch circuit voltage on the roof with the other breakers off one branch at a time. Not to get too far off on a tangent, but as we're installing more and more energy storage with lots of onsite wiring work, it is clear that fully testing wiring is of utmost importance. We have a procedure for checking voltage at each piece of equipment (such as a backup loads panel, etc) prior to turning on branch breakers. We've run into a couple of scenarios where hots and neutrals were mixed up causing 240 v to go to a 120 v circuit. Not good. August On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 2:58 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I discovered the issue I believe, so I thought I'd update all of you who > gave me ideas on what to look for (thank you). > > And this is something that I stress the importance of all the time... > > The branch circuit pairs were not properly paired up! All of the L1 > conductors went to L1 on the bus and all of the L2 to L2. However, for > example, circuit 1 L1 and circuit 2 L2 were on a single 2-pole breaker. And > circuit 2 L1 and circuit 1 L2 were on another breaker. Everything worked > because it was electrically connected to the right bus bar. However, when > there was a previous fault one of the breakers probably didn't trip when it > should have as a result of the improper pairings. It was reset a few times > and just kept heating up and heating up. > > This isn't conclusive, but it sure makes sense. It wasn't fun tracking > this down with 5 strings and 5 junction boxes on the roof, but once we > started continuity testing and finding strange results, it became clear. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 12:10 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> (System installed by another contractor...) >> >> I have been tasked with assisting in the investigation of damage in a >> subpanel used to combine inverter output circuits (5 strings of >> microinverters). There appears to be no damage to conductors or other >> system components. It looks like the damage started at the stabs of the bus >> bar where the breakers connect. Picture attached. Here are a few clues: >> >> - Monitoring indicates that damage occurred overnight a few weeks >> ago. That night we had rain as a winter front came through Florida, >> possibly lightning. The prior day everything was fine. >> - The next morning, only 2 of 5 strings started producing power, but >> 4 of 5 strings were reporting data to the Envoy. The two strings that were >> reporting but not producing power reported 0Vac and Voc on the DC side of >> the microinverters. >> - A couple of weeks later, 1 of the 2 strings that was producing >> power quit doing so, but continued reporting data. >> - Customer discovered damage yesterday. >> - About a week before the initial damage apparently manifested >> itself, another contractor installed a whole house generator transfer >> switch on the line side of the PV interconnection. The generator has never >> been run (there is not even a LP fuel source on site yet). I pointed out >> that the solar interconnection, which was previously on the supply side, >> would need to be moved to the supply side of the generator transfer >> switch's main breaker before operation. During the transfer switch >> installation, the contractor also switched line 1 and line 2, but that >> shouldn't really matter, except for Enphase consumption monitoring, which >> was messed up by the swapping of the lines. >> >> So I'm looking for ideas. I'm wondering if the OCPD would be a likely >> place for lightning damage to manifest itself. I can't visually detect any >> other damage anywhere else. I can't imagine that the transfer switch >> installation would have anything to do with it, but the timing is >> interesting. Other than replacing the subpanel and OCPD and firing it back >> up (no pun intended), I'm not sure how to approach further investigation. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jan 23 15:16:56 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:16:56 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] THD Message-ID: <0b2711928d4d76d0872637f525014a9c@mail.gmail.com> Colleagues: In a recent post about some AC GFI tripping problems, I mentioned I am measuring some high THD readings in certain scenarios—the highest being when the generator is charging at high percentages: Inverter only: 2.5% THD Gen Max: 19% THD Gen 5 Amps: 8% THD I measured the THD using a Fluke VR1710 . This is a handy little gizmo and pretty expensive considering its size. The device has limitations: 1. It is cord connected. 2. Results cannot be viewed in real-time. 3. It measures voltage parameters only. Here are my questions: 1. Has anyone here had to consider problems with high THD in any off-grid scenarios? 2. What readings are normal? 3. What is the significance of voltage harmonics versus current harmonics? 4. What instruments are you using to measure THD? 5. Has anyone seen high THD causing AC GFI tripping? 6. What other symptoms might occur with high THD? Tip: The reason we first started suspecting high THD is that cheap voltmeters registered abnormally high (including the onboard Radian metering) during periods of high THD, while true RMS meters (Fluke 87) continued to measure normal AC voltages. If you experience this situation, high THD is suspect. Answers are always gratefully appreciated. William Miller PS: If you are receiving a BCC of this email, it is because you are part of the team working on this problem. The message is directed to an industry forum in hopes of gleaning additional knowledge. I will share any results I receive. Wm Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jan 23 16:06:08 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 14:06:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] THD In-Reply-To: <0b2711928d4d76d0872637f525014a9c@mail.gmail.com> References: <0b2711928d4d76d0872637f525014a9c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5ddb9fe3-09ab-10cf-4cf6-1dcc0082254d@solarray.com> My understanding is anything over 5% THD is getting to be a problem.  I've measured that high on grid here before.  Do you have any idea what harmonics this distortion is at?  Have you looked at it on an O scope?  What generator is this?  I've seen portable generators with terrible wave forms under load.  They have a front end spike on the waveform, and then they flatten out under load.  Anything that isn't a pure sine wave is distortion. Have you checked the peak of the wave form?  I've seen generators under load, flatten to 135 v peak, which is really not even a sine wave anymore.  Very poor performance, most AC electronics do not like a DCish wave form. Also, I have a Seaward meter that does THD, its a little clunky to navigate, but it gives real time readings, is battery powered, and can break out the separate harmonics too.  The harmonics just give you an idea at what frequency the distortion is at, which "might" let you figure out what is causing problems.  I don't know enough about AC GFI electronics to know what effect THD would have, but 19% THD is total trash, and all bets are off; it could damage all sorts of other equipment too. I think you've already done all that needs to be done: They need a better generator. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/23/20 1:16 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Colleagues: > > In a recent post about some AC GFI tripping problems, I mentioned I am > measuring some high THD readings in certain scenarios—the highest > being when the generator is charging at high percentages: > > Inverter only: 2.5% THD > > Gen Max: 19% THD > > Gen 5 Amps: 8% THD > > I measured the THD using a Fluke VR1710 .  This is a > handy little gizmo and pretty expensive considering its size.  The > device has limitations: > > 1.It is cord connected. > > 2.Results cannot be viewed in real-time. > > 3.It measures voltage parameters only. > > Here are my questions: > > 1.Has anyone here had to consider problems with high THD in any > off-grid scenarios? > > 2.What readings are normal? > > 3.What is the significance of voltage harmonics versus current harmonics? > > 4.What instruments are you using to measure THD? > > 5.Has anyone seen high THD causing AC GFI tripping? > > 6.What other symptoms might occur with high THD? > > Tip: The reason we first started suspecting high THD is that cheap > voltmeters registered abnormally high (including the onboard Radian > metering) during periods of high THD, while true RMS meters (Fluke 87) > continued to measure normal AC voltages.  If you experience this > situation, high THD is suspect. > > Answers are always gratefully appreciated. > > William Miller > > PS: If you are receiving a BCC of this email, it is because you are > part of the team working on this problem.  The message is directed to > an industry forum in hopes of gleaning additional knowledge.  I will > share any results I receive. > > Wm > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Jan 23 16:15:40 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:15:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Load & Generation Meter Message-ID: Hi All, I am looking for a good choice for a meter that I can use for the following circumstances: - Legacy Off-grid and Battery Backup systems that don't have very useful on board metering in order to get an accurate reading of loads, generation (solar, wind, generator, etc.), power in from and out to the grid - Potential new battery based installs where the above info is not easily ascertainable - Troubleshooting systems where there are apparent discrepancies between client expectations/understanding and actual circumstances - Metering of both AC and DC loads and generation - Metering capable of Internet connection for remote monitoring and data collection - Potential for leaving in/selling to client if they are interested in the info long term My goto meter in the past has been the Trimetric, but that doesn't give me enough data for real troubleshooting and data collection. I have for years run into circumstances where this information gathered over a period of time would be incredibly useful. Being able to see info remotely and looking at history would be even more useful. Having started using Blue Ion batteries that have incorporated an eGauge in their system, I have become familiar with some of the eGauge capabilities. I can see how having one on my service truck with multiple AC and DC CTs that I can leave on site for a period time would often be very useful, although a bit complicated to set up for short term analysis. I also don't know that it has a local display for those not computer savvy. And it is a bit pricey for simple systems that I'd could potentially sell to the client once they get an idea of how helpful it could be. What have folks used with what degree of success? I'm open to all suggestions and ideas/critiques. Thanks, Howie *Howie Michaelson **Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ * *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jan 23 16:28:32 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:28:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter Output Circuit OCPD Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What made this installation (again, by others) a bit more complicated was that all branch circuit line conductors were black. I make it a point on my installations to require black for L1 and red for L2 up to #6 wire size. It's not a failsafe by any means but does reduce risk. On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 2:41 PM August Goers wrote: > Jason - > > Thanks for sharing - this is a good lesson for all Wrenches. Years ago we > had a dual string inverter installation where the DC positives and > negatives were mixed between the two interters. String 1 positive went to > inverter 1, string 1 negative went to inverter 2 and vice versa. The > inverters tested out and ran for about two weeks and then one of them > literally caught on fire. Since then, we implemented a policy of checking > wiring coming from the roof down individually. In the case of microinverter > branch circuits, this means checking each branch circuit voltage on the > roof with the other breakers off one branch at a time. > > Not to get too far off on a tangent, but as we're installing more and more > energy storage with lots of onsite wiring work, it is clear that fully > testing wiring is of utmost importance. We have a procedure for checking > voltage at each piece of equipment (such as a backup loads panel, etc) > prior to turning on branch breakers. We've run into a couple of > scenarios where hots and neutrals were mixed up causing 240 v to go to a > 120 v circuit. Not good. > > August > > On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 2:58 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I discovered the issue I believe, so I thought I'd update all of you who >> gave me ideas on what to look for (thank you). >> >> And this is something that I stress the importance of all the time... >> >> The branch circuit pairs were not properly paired up! All of the L1 >> conductors went to L1 on the bus and all of the L2 to L2. However, for >> example, circuit 1 L1 and circuit 2 L2 were on a single 2-pole breaker. And >> circuit 2 L1 and circuit 1 L2 were on another breaker. Everything worked >> because it was electrically connected to the right bus bar. However, when >> there was a previous fault one of the breakers probably didn't trip when it >> should have as a result of the improper pairings. It was reset a few times >> and just kept heating up and heating up. >> >> This isn't conclusive, but it sure makes sense. It wasn't fun tracking >> this down with 5 strings and 5 junction boxes on the roof, but once we >> started continuity testing and finding strange results, it became clear. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 12:10 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> (System installed by another contractor...) >>> >>> I have been tasked with assisting in the investigation of damage in a >>> subpanel used to combine inverter output circuits (5 strings of >>> microinverters). There appears to be no damage to conductors or other >>> system components. It looks like the damage started at the stabs of the bus >>> bar where the breakers connect. Picture attached. Here are a few clues: >>> >>> - Monitoring indicates that damage occurred overnight a few weeks >>> ago. That night we had rain as a winter front came through Florida, >>> possibly lightning. The prior day everything was fine. >>> - The next morning, only 2 of 5 strings started producing power, but >>> 4 of 5 strings were reporting data to the Envoy. The two strings that were >>> reporting but not producing power reported 0Vac and Voc on the DC side of >>> the microinverters. >>> - A couple of weeks later, 1 of the 2 strings that was producing >>> power quit doing so, but continued reporting data. >>> - Customer discovered damage yesterday. >>> - About a week before the initial damage apparently manifested >>> itself, another contractor installed a whole house generator transfer >>> switch on the line side of the PV interconnection. The generator has never >>> been run (there is not even a LP fuel source on site yet). I pointed out >>> that the solar interconnection, which was previously on the supply side, >>> would need to be moved to the supply side of the generator transfer >>> switch's main breaker before operation. During the transfer switch >>> installation, the contractor also switched line 1 and line 2, but that >>> shouldn't really matter, except for Enphase consumption monitoring, which >>> was messed up by the swapping of the lines. >>> >>> So I'm looking for ideas. I'm wondering if the OCPD would be a likely >>> place for lightning damage to manifest itself. I can't visually detect any >>> other damage anywhere else. I can't imagine that the transfer switch >>> installation would have anything to do with it, but the timing is >>> interesting. Other than replacing the subpanel and OCPD and firing it back >>> up (no pun intended), I'm not sure how to approach further investigation. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jan 23 16:53:29 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 14:53:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter Output Circuit OCPD Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03f6783a-0f94-8345-743c-2ce7b62b4f14@solarray.com> We use this 3M wire numbering dispenser.  They don't stick as well as I'd like, but it can solve some very weird problems later. 3M STD Wire Marker Dispenser with #0-9 H-5223 - Uline I'm also a fiend for color coding, and have had numerous discussion here on the list about the need to color code wire. Crossed wiring as Jason has illustrated to us, can be very dangerous and lead to issues none of us could have predicted. Once again,  this situation would have easily been prevented by good old labeling and color coding by the original installer  Every time I open a box and see unmarked black wires running every where, or inconsistent colors,  I know the entire installation is suspect. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/23/20 2:28 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > What made this installation (again, by others) a bit more complicated > was that all branch circuit line conductors were black. I make it a > point on my installations to require black for L1 and red for L2 up to > #6 wire size. It's not a failsafe by any means but does reduce risk. > > * > > * > > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 2:41 PM August Goers > wrote: > > Jason - > > Thanks for sharing - this is a good lesson for all Wrenches. Years > ago we had a dual string inverter installation where the DC > positives and negatives were mixed between the two interters. > String 1 positive went to inverter 1, string 1 negative went to > inverter 2 and vice versa. The inverters tested out and ran for > about two weeks and then one of them literally caught on fire. > Since then, we implemented a policy of checking wiring coming from > the roof down individually. In the case of microinverter branch > circuits, this means checking each branch circuit voltage on the > roof with the other breakers off one branch at a time. > > Not to get too far off on a tangent, but as we're installing more > and more energy storage with lots of onsite wiring work, it is > clear that fully testing wiring is of utmost importance. We have a > procedure for checking voltage at each piece of equipment (such as > a backup loads panel, etc) prior to turning on branch breakers. > We've run into a couple of scenarios where hots and neutrals were > mixed up causing 240 v to go to a 120 v circuit. Not good. > > August > > On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 2:58 PM Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > I discovered the issue I believe, so I thought I'd update all > of you who gave me ideas on what to look for (thank you). > > And this is something that I stress the importance of all the > time... > > The branch circuit pairs were not properly paired up! All of > the L1 conductors went to L1 on the bus and all of the L2 to > L2. However, for example, circuit 1 L1 and circuit 2 L2 were > on a single 2-pole breaker. And circuit 2 L1 and circuit 1 L2 > were on another breaker. Everything worked because it was > electrically connected to the right bus bar. However, when > there was a previous fault one of the breakers probably didn't > trip when it should have as a result of the improper pairings. > It was reset a few times and just kept heating up and heating up. > > This isn't conclusive, but it sure makes sense. It wasn't fun > tracking this down with 5 strings and 5 junction boxes on the > roof, but once we started continuity testing and finding > strange results, it became clear. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 12:10 PM Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > (System installed by another contractor...) > > I have been tasked with assisting in the investigation of > damage in a subpanel used to combine inverter output > circuits (5 strings of microinverters). There appears to > be no damage to conductors or other system components. It > looks like the damage started at the stabs of the bus bar > where the breakers connect. Picture attached. Here are a > few clues: > > * Monitoring indicates that damage occurred overnight a > few weeks ago. That night we had rain as a winter > front came through Florida, possibly lightning. The > prior day everything was fine. > * The next morning, only 2 of 5 strings started > producing power, but 4 of 5 strings were reporting > data to the Envoy. The two strings that were reporting > but not producing power reported 0Vac and Voc on the > DC side of the microinverters. > * A couple of weeks later, 1 of the 2 strings that was > producing power quit doing so, but continued reporting > data. > * Customer discovered damage yesterday. > * About a week before the initial damage apparently > manifested itself, another contractor installed a > whole house generator transfer switch on the line side > of the PV interconnection. The generator has never > been run (there is not even a LP fuel source on site > yet). I pointed out that the solar interconnection, > which was previously on the supply side, would need to > be moved to the supply side of the generator transfer > switch's main breaker before operation. During the > transfer switch installation, the contractor also > switched line 1 and line 2, but that shouldn't > really matter, except for Enphase consumption > monitoring, which was messed up by the swapping of the > lines. > > So I'm looking for ideas. I'm wondering if the OCPD would > be a likely place for lightning damage to manifest itself. > I can't visually detect any other damage anywhere else. I > can't imagine that the transfer switch installation would > have anything to do with it, but the timing is > interesting. Other than replacing the subpanel and OCPD > and firing it back up (no pun intended), I'm not sure how > to approach further investigation. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > * > > * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jan 23 23:27:09 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 18:27:09 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Load & Generation Meter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Howie Egauge is a great product with both AC and DC CT's from very small to over 2500 amps, you can order what ever you need that fits your application, I have used several DC CT's for the purpose of testing extended use of new products, the website is included and field programmable and can be re-set from application to application or as demands change. Jerry NABCEP PV Inspector On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 11:16 AM Howie Michaelson < Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: > Hi All, > I am looking for a good choice for a meter that I can use for the > following circumstances: > > - Legacy Off-grid and Battery Backup systems that don't have very > useful on board metering in order to get an accurate reading of loads, > generation (solar, wind, generator, etc.), power in from and out to the grid > - Potential new battery based installs where the above info is not > easily ascertainable > - Troubleshooting systems where there are apparent discrepancies > between client expectations/understanding and actual circumstances > - Metering of both AC and DC loads and generation > - Metering capable of Internet connection for remote monitoring and > data collection > - Potential for leaving in/selling to client if they are interested in > the info long term > > My goto meter in the past has been the Trimetric, but that doesn't give me > enough data for real troubleshooting and data collection. I have for years > run into circumstances where this information gathered over a period of > time would be incredibly useful. Being able to see info remotely and > looking at history would be even more useful. Having started using Blue > Ion batteries that have incorporated an eGauge in their system, I have > become familiar with some of the eGauge capabilities. I can see how having > one on my service truck with multiple AC and DC CTs that I can leave on > site for a period time would often be very useful, although a bit > complicated to set up for short term analysis. I also don't know that it > has a local display for those not computer savvy. And it is a bit pricey > for simple systems that I'd could potentially sell to the client once they > get an idea of how helpful it could be. > > What have folks used with what degree of success? I'm open to all > suggestions and ideas/critiques. > Thanks, > Howie > > *Howie Michaelson **Sun Catcher* > > *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ * > > *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Fri Jan 24 08:03:03 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 08:03:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Load & Generation Meter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Howie, Neurio makes a $200-ish product very comparable to the egauge. This also happens to be the meter used on the Powerwall 2. https://www.neur.io/energy-monitor/ My understanding is that it has a limited amount of CT inputs, but for monitoring a handful of circuits/sources this should work fine. I hear your complaint about the egauge not having a great user interface on the device. What I have done to combate this in the past has been to buy a cheap tablet (the Amazon fire goes for around $50) and install it co-located with the egauge so that info is readily available and the homeowner can get meaningful data at the device without having to be tech savvy. Best, Chris On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 11:27 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches, Howie > Egauge is a great product with both AC and DC CT's from very small to over > 2500 amps, you can order what ever you need that fits your application, I > have used several DC CT's for the purpose of testing extended use of new > products, the website is included and field programmable and can be re-set > from application to application or as demands change. > Jerry > NABCEP PV Inspector > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 11:16 AM Howie Michaelson < > Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> I am looking for a good choice for a meter that I can use for the >> following circumstances: >> >> - Legacy Off-grid and Battery Backup systems that don't have very >> useful on board metering in order to get an accurate reading of loads, >> generation (solar, wind, generator, etc.), power in from and out to the grid >> - Potential new battery based installs where the above info is not >> easily ascertainable >> - Troubleshooting systems where there are apparent discrepancies >> between client expectations/understanding and actual circumstances >> - Metering of both AC and DC loads and generation >> - Metering capable of Internet connection for remote monitoring and >> data collection >> - Potential for leaving in/selling to client if they are interested >> in the info long term >> >> My goto meter in the past has been the Trimetric, but that doesn't give >> me enough data for real troubleshooting and data collection. I have for >> years run into circumstances where this information gathered over a period >> of time would be incredibly useful. Being able to see info remotely and >> looking at history would be even more useful. Having started using Blue >> Ion batteries that have incorporated an eGauge in their system, I have >> become familiar with some of the eGauge capabilities. I can see how having >> one on my service truck with multiple AC and DC CTs that I can leave on >> site for a period time would often be very useful, although a bit >> complicated to set up for short term analysis. I also don't know that it >> has a local display for those not computer savvy. And it is a bit pricey >> for simple systems that I'd could potentially sell to the client once they >> get an idea of how helpful it could be. >> >> What have folks used with what degree of success? I'm open to all >> suggestions and ideas/critiques. >> Thanks, >> Howie >> >> *Howie Michaelson **Sun Catcher* >> >> *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ * >> >> *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Jan 24 08:50:39 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 08:50:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tool rental for THD In-Reply-To: <0b2711928d4d76d0872637f525014a9c@mail.gmail.com> References: <0b2711928d4d76d0872637f525014a9c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1224ABCF-A8F9-490A-B88B-BF45589A7DCC@swnl.net> A bit off topic, BUT testing equipment from these folks is a really great way to go;www.trsrentelco.com . GREAT, PROMPT, cost effective tool rental and service. I rent the Fluke 1735 or the 1738 power logger for a month its under $300.00 > On Jan 23, 2020, at 3:16 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Colleagues: > > In a recent post about some AC GFI tripping problems, I mentioned I am measuring some high THD readings in certain scenarios—the highest being when the generator is charging at high percentages: > > Inverter only: 2.5% THD > Gen Max: 19% THD > Gen 5 Amps: 8% THD > > I measured the THD using a Fluke VR1710 . This is a handy little gizmo and pretty expensive considering its size. The device has limitations: > 1. It is cord connected. > 2. Results cannot be viewed in real-time. > 3. It measures voltage parameters only. > > Here are my questions: > > 1. Has anyone here had to consider problems with high THD in any off-grid scenarios? > 2. What readings are normal? > 3. What is the significance of voltage harmonics versus current harmonics? > 4. What instruments are you using to measure THD? > 5. Has anyone seen high THD causing AC GFI tripping? > 6. What other symptoms might occur with high THD? > > Tip: The reason we first started suspecting high THD is that cheap voltmeters registered abnormally high (including the onboard Radian metering) during periods of high THD, while true RMS meters (Fluke 87) continued to measure normal AC voltages. If you experience this situation, high THD is suspect. > > Answers are always gratefully appreciated. > > William Miller > > PS: If you are receiving a BCC of this email, it is because you are part of the team working on this problem. The message is directed to an industry forum in hopes of gleaning additional knowledge. I will share any results I receive. > > Wm > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri Jan 24 13:22:42 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:22:42 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Load & Generation Meter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Chris, Thanks for the info and ideas. So far the eGauge makes more sense because it can monitor DC loads as well as AC. When you set up a tablet for a client, are you able to set up a standard layout for basic info to be displayed? The eGauge has a lot of info and flexibility, which is great, but it is not the most intuitive interface. Often there can be too much info and complexity for the end user to sort through easily. Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 8:03 AM Chris Sparadeo wrote: > Hi Howie, > > Neurio makes a $200-ish product very comparable to the egauge. This also > happens to be the meter used on the Powerwall 2. > > https://www.neur.io/energy-monitor/ > > My understanding is that it has a limited amount of CT inputs, but for > monitoring a handful of circuits/sources this should work fine. > > I hear your complaint about the egauge not having a great user interface > on the device. What I have done to combate this in the past has been to buy > a cheap tablet (the Amazon fire goes for around $50) and install it > co-located with the egauge so that info is readily available and the > homeowner can get meaningful data at the device without having to be tech > savvy. > > Best, > > Chris > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 11:27 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Wrenches, Howie >> Egauge is a great product with both AC and DC CT's from very small to >> over 2500 amps, you can order what ever you need that fits your >> application, I have used several DC CT's for the purpose of testing >> extended use of new products, the website is included and field >> programmable and can be re-set from application to application or as >> demands change. >> Jerry >> NABCEP PV Inspector >> >> On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 11:16 AM Howie Michaelson < >> Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> I am looking for a good choice for a meter that I can use for the >>> following circumstances: >>> >>> - Legacy Off-grid and Battery Backup systems that don't have very >>> useful on board metering in order to get an accurate reading of loads, >>> generation (solar, wind, generator, etc.), power in from and out to the grid >>> - Potential new battery based installs where the above info is not >>> easily ascertainable >>> - Troubleshooting systems where there are apparent discrepancies >>> between client expectations/understanding and actual circumstances >>> - Metering of both AC and DC loads and generation >>> - Metering capable of Internet connection for remote monitoring and >>> data collection >>> - Potential for leaving in/selling to client if they are interested >>> in the info long term >>> >>> My goto meter in the past has been the Trimetric, but that doesn't give >>> me enough data for real troubleshooting and data collection. I have for >>> years run into circumstances where this information gathered over a period >>> of time would be incredibly useful. Being able to see info remotely and >>> looking at history would be even more useful. Having started using Blue >>> Ion batteries that have incorporated an eGauge in their system, I have >>> become familiar with some of the eGauge capabilities. I can see how having >>> one on my service truck with multiple AC and DC CTs that I can leave on >>> site for a period time would often be very useful, although a bit >>> complicated to set up for short term analysis. I also don't know that it >>> has a local display for those not computer savvy. And it is a bit pricey >>> for simple systems that I'd could potentially sell to the client once they >>> get an idea of how helpful it could be. >>> >>> What have folks used with what degree of success? I'm open to all >>> suggestions and ideas/critiques. >>> Thanks, >>> Howie >>> >>> *Howie Michaelson **Sun Catcher* >>> >>> *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ * >>> >>> *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004* >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jan 24 15:57:55 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 12:57:55 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Load & Generation Meter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches With Eguage you can set up any screen you want from speed to fixed max levels. Be aware that the DC CT's are directional and may report reversed but the values are incorrect. Jerry On Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 10:23 AM Howie Michaelson wrote: > Hi Chris, > Thanks for the info and ideas. So far the eGauge makes more sense because > it can monitor DC loads as well as AC. When you set up a tablet for a > client, are you able to set up a standard layout for basic info to be > displayed? The eGauge has a lot of info and flexibility, which is great, > but it is not the most intuitive interface. Often there can be too much > info and complexity for the end user to sort through easily. > Howie > > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > > > > On Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 8:03 AM Chris Sparadeo > wrote: > >> Hi Howie, >> >> Neurio makes a $200-ish product very comparable to the egauge. This also >> happens to be the meter used on the Powerwall 2. >> >> https://www.neur.io/energy-monitor/ >> >> My understanding is that it has a limited amount of CT inputs, but for >> monitoring a handful of circuits/sources this should work fine. >> >> I hear your complaint about the egauge not having a great user interface >> on the device. What I have done to combate this in the past has been to buy >> a cheap tablet (the Amazon fire goes for around $50) and install it >> co-located with the egauge so that info is readily available and the >> homeowner can get meaningful data at the device without having to be tech >> savvy. >> >> Best, >> >> Chris >> >> On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 11:27 PM Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >>> Wrenches, Howie >>> Egauge is a great product with both AC and DC CT's from very small to >>> over 2500 amps, you can order what ever you need that fits your >>> application, I have used several DC CT's for the purpose of testing >>> extended use of new products, the website is included and field >>> programmable and can be re-set from application to application or as >>> demands change. >>> Jerry >>> NABCEP PV Inspector >>> >>> On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 11:16 AM Howie Michaelson < >>> Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> I am looking for a good choice for a meter that I can use for the >>>> following circumstances: >>>> >>>> - Legacy Off-grid and Battery Backup systems that don't have very >>>> useful on board metering in order to get an accurate reading of loads, >>>> generation (solar, wind, generator, etc.), power in from and out to the grid >>>> - Potential new battery based installs where the above info is not >>>> easily ascertainable >>>> - Troubleshooting systems where there are apparent discrepancies >>>> between client expectations/understanding and actual circumstances >>>> - Metering of both AC and DC loads and generation >>>> - Metering capable of Internet connection for remote monitoring and >>>> data collection >>>> - Potential for leaving in/selling to client if they are interested >>>> in the info long term >>>> >>>> My goto meter in the past has been the Trimetric, but that doesn't give >>>> me enough data for real troubleshooting and data collection. I have for >>>> years run into circumstances where this information gathered over a period >>>> of time would be incredibly useful. Being able to see info remotely and >>>> looking at history would be even more useful. Having started using Blue >>>> Ion batteries that have incorporated an eGauge in their system, I have >>>> become familiar with some of the eGauge capabilities. I can see how having >>>> one on my service truck with multiple AC and DC CTs that I can leave on >>>> site for a period time would often be very useful, although a bit >>>> complicated to set up for short term analysis. I also don't know that it >>>> has a local display for those not computer savvy. And it is a bit pricey >>>> for simple systems that I'd could potentially sell to the client once they >>>> get an idea of how helpful it could be. >>>> >>>> What have folks used with what degree of success? I'm open to all >>>> suggestions and ideas/critiques. >>>> Thanks, >>>> Howie >>>> >>>> *Howie Michaelson **Sun Catcher* >>>> >>>> *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ * >>>> >>>> *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004* >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -- >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> >> C_802-369-4458 >> H_802-728-3059 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Jan 27 18:02:19 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 18:02:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Load & Generation Meter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jerry, Is there a tutorial somewhere on how to set up different eGauge screens? I can't seem to find any real info, and for me the interface is not very intuitive. Thanks, Howie On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 3:58 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > With Eguage you can set up any screen you want from speed to fixed max > levels. Be aware that the DC CT's are directional and may report reversed > but the values are incorrect. > Jerry > > On Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 10:23 AM Howie Michaelson < > Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Chris, >> Thanks for the info and ideas. So far the eGauge makes more sense because >> it can monitor DC loads as well as AC. When you set up a tablet for a >> client, are you able to set up a standard layout for basic info to be >> displayed? The eGauge has a lot of info and flexibility, which is great, >> but it is not the most intuitive interface. Often there can be too much >> info and complexity for the end user to sort through easily. >> Howie >> >> Howie Michaelson >> Sun Catcher >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service >> 802-272-0004 >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 8:03 AM Chris Sparadeo >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Howie, >>> >>> Neurio makes a $200-ish product very comparable to the egauge. This also >>> happens to be the meter used on the Powerwall 2. >>> >>> https://www.neur.io/energy-monitor/ >>> >>> My understanding is that it has a limited amount of CT inputs, but for >>> monitoring a handful of circuits/sources this should work fine. >>> >>> I hear your complaint about the egauge not having a great user interface >>> on the device. What I have done to combate this in the past has been to buy >>> a cheap tablet (the Amazon fire goes for around $50) and install it >>> co-located with the egauge so that info is readily available and the >>> homeowner can get meaningful data at the device without having to be tech >>> savvy. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 11:27 PM Jerry Shafer >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Wrenches, Howie >>>> Egauge is a great product with both AC and DC CT's from very small to >>>> over 2500 amps, you can order what ever you need that fits your >>>> application, I have used several DC CT's for the purpose of testing >>>> extended use of new products, the website is included and field >>>> programmable and can be re-set from application to application or as >>>> demands change. >>>> Jerry >>>> NABCEP PV Inspector >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 11:16 AM Howie Michaelson < >>>> Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> I am looking for a good choice for a meter that I can use for the >>>>> following circumstances: >>>>> >>>>> - Legacy Off-grid and Battery Backup systems that don't have very >>>>> useful on board metering in order to get an accurate reading of loads, >>>>> generation (solar, wind, generator, etc.), power in from and out to the grid >>>>> - Potential new battery based installs where the above info is not >>>>> easily ascertainable >>>>> - Troubleshooting systems where there are apparent discrepancies >>>>> between client expectations/understanding and actual circumstances >>>>> - Metering of both AC and DC loads and generation >>>>> - Metering capable of Internet connection for remote monitoring >>>>> and data collection >>>>> - Potential for leaving in/selling to client if they are >>>>> interested in the info long term >>>>> >>>>> My goto meter in the past has been the Trimetric, but that doesn't >>>>> give me enough data for real troubleshooting and data collection. I have >>>>> for years run into circumstances where this information gathered over a >>>>> period of time would be incredibly useful. Being able to see info remotely >>>>> and looking at history would be even more useful. Having started using >>>>> Blue Ion batteries that have incorporated an eGauge in their system, I have >>>>> become familiar with some of the eGauge capabilities. I can see how having >>>>> one on my service truck with multiple AC and DC CTs that I can leave on >>>>> site for a period time would often be very useful, although a bit >>>>> complicated to set up for short term analysis. I also don't know that it >>>>> has a local display for those not computer savvy. And it is a bit pricey >>>>> for simple systems that I'd could potentially sell to the client once they >>>>> get an idea of how helpful it could be. >>>>> >>>>> What have folks used with what degree of success? I'm open to all >>>>> suggestions and ideas/critiques. >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Howie >>>>> >>>>> *Howie Michaelson **Sun Catcher* >>>>> >>>>> *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ * >>>>> >>>>> *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004* >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> -- >>> Chris Sparadeo >>> >>> >>> C_802-369-4458 >>> H_802-728-3059 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kanestephenj at gmail.com Mon Jan 27 18:17:22 2020 From: kanestephenj at gmail.com (Stephen K) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 16:17:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Load & Generation Meter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jerry, They have doco on their website and some videos in their knowledge base page: https://www.egauge.net/support/#docs https://www.egauge.net/media/support/docs/config-guide.pdf https://support.egauge.net/support/home Also, their Tech Support has always been helpful for us. Stephen Kane Namaste Solar On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 4:02 PM Howie Michaelson wrote: > Jerry, > Is there a tutorial somewhere on how to set up different eGauge screens? > I can't seem to find any real info, and for me the interface is not very > intuitive. > Thanks, > Howie > > On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 3:58 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Wrenches >> With Eguage you can set up any screen you want from speed to fixed max >> levels. Be aware that the DC CT's are directional and may report reversed >> but the values are incorrect. >> Jerry >> >> On Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 10:23 AM Howie Michaelson < >> Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Chris, >>> Thanks for the info and ideas. So far the eGauge makes more sense >>> because it can monitor DC loads as well as AC. When you set up a tablet for >>> a client, are you able to set up a standard layout for basic info to be >>> displayed? The eGauge has a lot of info and flexibility, which is great, >>> but it is not the most intuitive interface. Often there can be too much >>> info and complexity for the end user to sort through easily. >>> Howie >>> >>> Howie Michaelson >>> Sun Catcher >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >>> Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service >>> 802-272-0004 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 8:03 AM Chris Sparadeo >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Howie, >>>> >>>> Neurio makes a $200-ish product very comparable to the egauge. This >>>> also happens to be the meter used on the Powerwall 2. >>>> >>>> https://www.neur.io/energy-monitor/ >>>> >>>> My understanding is that it has a limited amount of CT inputs, but for >>>> monitoring a handful of circuits/sources this should work fine. >>>> >>>> I hear your complaint about the egauge not having a great user >>>> interface on the device. What I have done to combate this in the past has >>>> been to buy a cheap tablet (the Amazon fire goes for around $50) and >>>> install it co-located with the egauge so that info is readily available and >>>> the homeowner can get meaningful data at the device without having to be >>>> tech savvy. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 11:27 PM Jerry Shafer >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Wrenches, Howie >>>>> Egauge is a great product with both AC and DC CT's from very small to >>>>> over 2500 amps, you can order what ever you need that fits your >>>>> application, I have used several DC CT's for the purpose of testing >>>>> extended use of new products, the website is included and field >>>>> programmable and can be re-set from application to application or as >>>>> demands change. >>>>> Jerry >>>>> NABCEP PV Inspector >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 11:16 AM Howie Michaelson < >>>>> Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>> I am looking for a good choice for a meter that I can use for the >>>>>> following circumstances: >>>>>> >>>>>> - Legacy Off-grid and Battery Backup systems that don't have very >>>>>> useful on board metering in order to get an accurate reading of loads, >>>>>> generation (solar, wind, generator, etc.), power in from and out to the grid >>>>>> - Potential new battery based installs where the above info is >>>>>> not easily ascertainable >>>>>> - Troubleshooting systems where there are apparent discrepancies >>>>>> between client expectations/understanding and actual circumstances >>>>>> - Metering of both AC and DC loads and generation >>>>>> - Metering capable of Internet connection for remote monitoring >>>>>> and data collection >>>>>> - Potential for leaving in/selling to client if they are >>>>>> interested in the info long term >>>>>> >>>>>> My goto meter in the past has been the Trimetric, but that doesn't >>>>>> give me enough data for real troubleshooting and data collection. I have >>>>>> for years run into circumstances where this information gathered over a >>>>>> period of time would be incredibly useful. Being able to see info remotely >>>>>> and looking at history would be even more useful. Having started using >>>>>> Blue Ion batteries that have incorporated an eGauge in their system, I have >>>>>> become familiar with some of the eGauge capabilities. I can see how having >>>>>> one on my service truck with multiple AC and DC CTs that I can leave on >>>>>> site for a period time would often be very useful, although a bit >>>>>> complicated to set up for short term analysis. I also don't know that it >>>>>> has a local display for those not computer savvy. And it is a bit pricey >>>>>> for simple systems that I'd could potentially sell to the client once they >>>>>> get an idea of how helpful it could be. >>>>>> >>>>>> What have folks used with what degree of success? I'm open to all >>>>>> suggestions and ideas/critiques. >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Howie >>>>>> >>>>>> *Howie Michaelson **Sun Catcher* >>>>>> >>>>>> *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ * >>>>>> >>>>>> *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004* >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> Chris Sparadeo >>>> >>>> >>>> C_802-369-4458 >>>> H_802-728-3059 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Mon Jan 27 20:06:27 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 20:06:27 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Load & Generation Meter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howie, Under the “view” tab on egauge’s portal, you can select a few different options. “Bunny Kiosk” for example, will display rudimentary consumption and generation stats. “ Sleek Kiosk” is is another option that isn’t as granular and in the weeds as the myriad parameter choices on the normal display. -Chris On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 6:17 PM Stephen K wrote: > Jerry, > > They have doco on their website and some videos in their knowledge base > page: > > https://www.egauge.net/support/#docs > https://www.egauge.net/media/support/docs/config-guide.pdf > https://support.egauge.net/support/home > > > Also, their Tech Support has always been helpful for us. > > Stephen Kane > Namaste Solar > > > > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 4:02 PM Howie Michaelson < > Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Jerry, >> Is there a tutorial somewhere on how to set up different eGauge screens? >> I can't seem to find any real info, and for me the interface is not very >> intuitive. >> Thanks, >> Howie >> >> On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 3:58 PM Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >>> Wrenches >>> With Eguage you can set up any screen you want from speed to fixed max >>> levels. Be aware that the DC CT's are directional and may report reversed >>> but the values are incorrect. >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 10:23 AM Howie Michaelson < >>> Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Chris, >>>> Thanks for the info and ideas. So far the eGauge makes more sense >>>> because it can monitor DC loads as well as AC. When you set up a tablet for >>>> a client, are you able to set up a standard layout for basic info to be >>>> displayed? The eGauge has a lot of info and flexibility, which is great, >>>> but it is not the most intuitive interface. Often there can be too much >>>> info and complexity for the end user to sort through easily. >>>> Howie >>>> >>>> Howie Michaelson >>>> Sun Catcher >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >>>> Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service >>>> 802-272-0004 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 8:03 AM Chris Sparadeo >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Howie, >>>>> >>>>> Neurio makes a $200-ish product very comparable to the egauge. This >>>>> also happens to be the meter used on the Powerwall 2. >>>>> >>>>> https://www.neur.io/energy-monitor/ >>>>> >>>>> My understanding is that it has a limited amount of CT inputs, but for >>>>> monitoring a handful of circuits/sources this should work fine. >>>>> >>>>> I hear your complaint about the egauge not having a great user >>>>> interface on the device. What I have done to combate this in the past has >>>>> been to buy a cheap tablet (the Amazon fire goes for around $50) and >>>>> install it co-located with the egauge so that info is readily available and >>>>> the homeowner can get meaningful data at the device without having to be >>>>> tech savvy. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 11:27 PM Jerry Shafer < >>>>> jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Wrenches, Howie >>>>>> Egauge is a great product with both AC and DC CT's from very small to >>>>>> over 2500 amps, you can order what ever you need that fits your >>>>>> application, I have used several DC CT's for the purpose of testing >>>>>> extended use of new products, the website is included and field >>>>>> programmable and can be re-set from application to application or as >>>>>> demands change. >>>>>> Jerry >>>>>> NABCEP PV Inspector >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 11:16 AM Howie Michaelson < >>>>>> Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>> I am looking for a good choice for a meter that I can use for the >>>>>>> following circumstances: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - Legacy Off-grid and Battery Backup systems that don't have >>>>>>> very useful on board metering in order to get an accurate reading of loads, >>>>>>> generation (solar, wind, generator, etc.), power in from and out to the grid >>>>>>> - Potential new battery based installs where the above info is >>>>>>> not easily ascertainable >>>>>>> - Troubleshooting systems where there are apparent discrepancies >>>>>>> between client expectations/understanding and actual circumstances >>>>>>> - Metering of both AC and DC loads and generation >>>>>>> - Metering capable of Internet connection for remote monitoring >>>>>>> and data collection >>>>>>> - Potential for leaving in/selling to client if they are >>>>>>> interested in the info long term >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My goto meter in the past has been the Trimetric, but that doesn't >>>>>>> give me enough data for real troubleshooting and data collection. I have >>>>>>> for years run into circumstances where this information gathered over a >>>>>>> period of time would be incredibly useful. Being able to see info remotely >>>>>>> and looking at history would be even more useful. Having started using >>>>>>> Blue Ion batteries that have incorporated an eGauge in their system, I have >>>>>>> become familiar with some of the eGauge capabilities. I can see how having >>>>>>> one on my service truck with multiple AC and DC CTs that I can leave on >>>>>>> site for a period time would often be very useful, although a bit >>>>>>> complicated to set up for short term analysis. I also don't know that it >>>>>>> has a local display for those not computer savvy. And it is a bit pricey >>>>>>> for simple systems that I'd could potentially sell to the client once they >>>>>>> get an idea of how helpful it could be. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What have folks used with what degree of success? I'm open to all >>>>>>> suggestions and ideas/critiques. >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Howie >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Howie Michaelson **Sun Catcher* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ * >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004* >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List-Archive: >>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> Chris Sparadeo >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> C_802-369-4458 >>>>> H_802-728-3059 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jan 27 23:14:44 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 20:14:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Load & Generation Meter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You can even call the support line and they will help you out with it. Once you get the hang of it you can pull up the time to watch in very high detail every bump of the power. Jerry On Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 3:02 PM Howie Michaelson wrote: > Jerry, > Is there a tutorial somewhere on how to set up different eGauge screens? > I can't seem to find any real info, and for me the interface is not very > intuitive. > Thanks, > Howie > > On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 3:58 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Wrenches >> With Eguage you can set up any screen you want from speed to fixed max >> levels. Be aware that the DC CT's are directional and may report reversed >> but the values are incorrect. >> Jerry >> >> On Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 10:23 AM Howie Michaelson < >> Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Chris, >>> Thanks for the info and ideas. So far the eGauge makes more sense >>> because it can monitor DC loads as well as AC. When you set up a tablet for >>> a client, are you able to set up a standard layout for basic info to be >>> displayed? The eGauge has a lot of info and flexibility, which is great, >>> but it is not the most intuitive interface. Often there can be too much >>> info and complexity for the end user to sort through easily. >>> Howie >>> >>> Howie Michaelson >>> Sun Catcher >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >>> Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service >>> 802-272-0004 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 8:03 AM Chris Sparadeo >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Howie, >>>> >>>> Neurio makes a $200-ish product very comparable to the egauge. This >>>> also happens to be the meter used on the Powerwall 2. >>>> >>>> https://www.neur.io/energy-monitor/ >>>> >>>> My understanding is that it has a limited amount of CT inputs, but for >>>> monitoring a handful of circuits/sources this should work fine. >>>> >>>> I hear your complaint about the egauge not having a great user >>>> interface on the device. What I have done to combate this in the past has >>>> been to buy a cheap tablet (the Amazon fire goes for around $50) and >>>> install it co-located with the egauge so that info is readily available and >>>> the homeowner can get meaningful data at the device without having to be >>>> tech savvy. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 11:27 PM Jerry Shafer >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Wrenches, Howie >>>>> Egauge is a great product with both AC and DC CT's from very small to >>>>> over 2500 amps, you can order what ever you need that fits your >>>>> application, I have used several DC CT's for the purpose of testing >>>>> extended use of new products, the website is included and field >>>>> programmable and can be re-set from application to application or as >>>>> demands change. >>>>> Jerry >>>>> NABCEP PV Inspector >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 11:16 AM Howie Michaelson < >>>>> Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>> I am looking for a good choice for a meter that I can use for the >>>>>> following circumstances: >>>>>> >>>>>> - Legacy Off-grid and Battery Backup systems that don't have very >>>>>> useful on board metering in order to get an accurate reading of loads, >>>>>> generation (solar, wind, generator, etc.), power in from and out to the grid >>>>>> - Potential new battery based installs where the above info is >>>>>> not easily ascertainable >>>>>> - Troubleshooting systems where there are apparent discrepancies >>>>>> between client expectations/understanding and actual circumstances >>>>>> - Metering of both AC and DC loads and generation >>>>>> - Metering capable of Internet connection for remote monitoring >>>>>> and data collection >>>>>> - Potential for leaving in/selling to client if they are >>>>>> interested in the info long term >>>>>> >>>>>> My goto meter in the past has been the Trimetric, but that doesn't >>>>>> give me enough data for real troubleshooting and data collection. I have >>>>>> for years run into circumstances where this information gathered over a >>>>>> period of time would be incredibly useful. Being able to see info remotely >>>>>> and looking at history would be even more useful. Having started using >>>>>> Blue Ion batteries that have incorporated an eGauge in their system, I have >>>>>> become familiar with some of the eGauge capabilities. I can see how having >>>>>> one on my service truck with multiple AC and DC CTs that I can leave on >>>>>> site for a period time would often be very useful, although a bit >>>>>> complicated to set up for short term analysis. I also don't know that it >>>>>> has a local display for those not computer savvy. And it is a bit pricey >>>>>> for simple systems that I'd could potentially sell to the client once they >>>>>> get an idea of how helpful it could be. >>>>>> >>>>>> What have folks used with what degree of success? I'm open to all >>>>>> suggestions and ideas/critiques. >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Howie >>>>>> >>>>>> *Howie Michaelson **Sun Catcher* >>>>>> >>>>>> *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ * >>>>>> >>>>>> *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004* >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> Chris Sparadeo >>>> >>>> >>>> C_802-369-4458 >>>> H_802-728-3059 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Jan 28 21:03:03 2020 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 20:03:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TELSA S Battery Charging Message-ID: Wrenches on high… I am knee deep in an Off-Grid project design and need to confirm a few settings on different inverters. I want to set the Bulk and Absorb to rather low numbers versus typical Lead Acid battery charging. I confirmed Outback Radian allows setting Absorb and Float to 50.5V and ReBulk and ReFloat can likewise be even lower. I also confirmed that LBCO can be set to below 40V. I also confirmed that XW6048 using the Custom setting will accept Absorb and Float at 50.5 but will NOT accept Bulk that low (only down to 54.2V, which does not align with the manual.) The question: Can anyone check to see if the XW+ or the XW Pro can actually accept those values for the inverter charger, especially for Bulk? Maybe someone can also check SOL-ARK 8k or 12k for the same charger setting limits?? Basically, I want to make the inverter’s charger a Constant Voltage Charger or at least set a bit lower settings. Maverick 512-460-9825 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Wed Jan 29 10:42:41 2020 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 15:42:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Source for Out of Production Panels References: <1899082309.764092.1580312561686.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1899082309.764092.1580312561686@mail.yahoo.com> Does anyone have a extra Solar World 230 mono black panel on hand or know of a good source for panels long out of production? If you have the panel contact me off line... But, by all means, of you have a good source for the aforementioned panels, please share with the group. Thanks a Ton!  Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Jan 31 09:10:29 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 07:10:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Gateway Control Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I am working with Schneider on this but I haven't heard back in a few days so I thought I'd put it out to the list to see if anyone else has worked through this. We recently installed our first Conext Gateway in hopes of getting better monitoring and control through Insight 2 portal. We installed it on an XW 5548, AGS, Batt Mon, HV-MPPT charge controller ~ 4 years old. For some reason, we cannot make changes to the system via the portal. The monitoring is much better but the control isn't functional. When I make a parameter change, it asks for the username and password but then gives this error every time: [image: image.png] I verified that I am entering the Gateway admin username and the new password that I assigned. I can log into it locally, directly through the Access Pt functionality. Any suggestions? Schneider isn't responding and its a snow cat ride to get into the site. Thanks -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 13904 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Jan 31 09:18:41 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 07:18:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Xanbus Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, Does anyone have a good way to locate intermittent Xanbus issues with Schneider equipment? We have a site that has been giving us a lot of issues. It seems like the AGS might be dropping in and out and defaulting to "Off". It works flawlessly when we are there of course. Cables are testing fine. No other device seems to have these issues. All of these cables are factory made. Maybe there is another explanation for the AGS defaulting to "Off". Thanks in advance for your help -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Jan 31 09:26:00 2020 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 09:26:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Gateway Control Message-ID: I continue to have unending troubles with my Schneider saga too. Weeks go by before they respond. Weeks go by before they ship replacement parts. Their products are pretty good, but the support I have been faced with from them continues to be abysmal.I and my customers are very disappointed with this, and I have run out of apologies and excuses for my customers.It doesnt seem like the gateway was ready for prime time, yet they were shipping them anyway. All mine came with firmware that would not let them connect to the internet and had to be flashed immediately. Of course I had to struggle to find this out in front of my customer.Backend trouble with their web servers put me back another 2 weeks. My first gateway was finally diagnosed as being bad, 3 weeks ago ani I still don't have the promised replacement in hand.The conversations I have had with their support staff have been from knowledgeable to bang my head against the wall.To date I have been unable to get 3 gateways successfully connected to their portal and interactive in 4 weeks of trying. My sites are also only accessible via snowmobile this time of year, so their support policy of leave a message and we will get nack to you doesn't work for me.Good luck.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Mac LewisDate: Fri, Jan 31, 2020 9:10 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Conext Gateway ControlHi Wrenches,I am working with Schneider on this but I haven't heard back in a few days so I thought I'd put it out to the list to see if anyone else has worked through this.We recently installed our first Conext Gateway in hopes of getting better monitoring and control through Insight 2 portal.  We installed it on an XW 5548, AGS, Batt Mon, HV-MPPT charge controller ~ 4 years old.For some reason, we cannot make changes to the system via the portal.  The monitoring is much better but the control isn't functional.  When I make a parameter change, it asks for the username and password but then gives this error every time:I verified that I am entering the Gateway admin username and the new password that I assigned.  I can log into it locally, directly through the Access Pt functionality.Any suggestions?  Schneider isn't responding and its a snow cat ride to get into the site.Thanks-- Mac Lewis"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 13904 bytes Desc: image.png URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Jan 31 09:27:26 2020 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 09:27:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Xanbus Message-ID: <2k358ansjskj4a5e2q5suh4c.1580480810515@email.lge.com> Are all your Xanbus cables at least 6' long?-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Mac LewisDate: Fri, Jan 31, 2020 9:19 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting XanbusHi Wrenches,Does anyone have a good way to locate intermittent Xanbus issues with Schneider equipment?  We have a site that has been giving us a lot of issues.  It seems like the AGS might be dropping in and out and defaulting to "Off".  It works flawlessly when we are there of course.  Cables are testing fine.  No other device seems to have these issues.  All of these cables are factory made.Maybe there is another explanation for the AGS defaulting to "Off".Thanks in advance for your help-- Mac Lewis"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sandra.Herrera at se.com Fri Jan 31 09:33:39 2020 From: Sandra.Herrera at se.com (Sandra Herrera) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 14:33:39 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Gateway Control In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac, Please verify you have the latest firmware on the Gateway. Also send me a screenshot of the about page, of the Gateway. Contact me directly, thanks Sandra Herrera Sandra.herrera at se.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 6:10 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Gateway Control [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ Hi Wrenches, I am working with Schneider on this but I haven't heard back in a few days so I thought I'd put it out to the list to see if anyone else has worked through this. We recently installed our first Conext Gateway in hopes of getting better monitoring and control through Insight 2 portal. We installed it on an XW 5548, AGS, Batt Mon, HV-MPPT charge controller ~ 4 years old. For some reason, we cannot make changes to the system via the portal. The monitoring is much better but the control isn't functional. When I make a parameter change, it asks for the username and password but then gives this error every time: [image.png] I verified that I am entering the Gateway admin username and the new password that I assigned. I can log into it locally, directly through the Access Pt functionality. Any suggestions? Schneider isn't responding and its a snow cat ride to get into the site. Thanks -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 18698 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From Sandra.Herrera at se.com Fri Jan 31 09:36:47 2020 From: Sandra.Herrera at se.com (Sandra Herrera) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 14:36:47 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Xanbus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac, This sounds more like an AGS issue that Xanbus, if it the only component affected. Please contact me directly and I can send you instructions. Thanks From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 6:19 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Xanbus [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ Hi Wrenches, Does anyone have a good way to locate intermittent Xanbus issues with Schneider equipment? We have a site that has been giving us a lot of issues. It seems like the AGS might be dropping in and out and defaulting to "Off". It works flawlessly when we are there of course. Cables are testing fine. No other device seems to have these issues. All of these cables are factory made. Maybe there is another explanation for the AGS defaulting to "Off". Thanks in advance for your help -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Fri Jan 31 09:44:15 2020 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 07:44:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Gateway Control In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <473744DF-088A-491C-943A-08DD716DEFD4@gmail.com> Hi Mac, I have a very similar issue to yours with a customer’s remote cabin and the need to be able to monitor and change settings remotely. I installed my first Gateway with a brand new Conext 4048 and an MPPT-150 controller and I’m having the exact same trouble and am getting the same error message. Before installation, I actually thought I had verified that I could make settings changes through the internet on a bench test using the admin password, etc, however, once the system was installed I haven’t been able to get it to work despite verifying my passwords and making a long trip for a return visit to the site. Perhaps someone else has some insight? I’m glad to know that this may be a larger issue. -Luke Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > On Jan 31, 2020, at 07:10, Mac Lewis wrote: > >  > Hi Wrenches, > > I am working with Schneider on this but I haven't heard back in a few days so I thought I'd put it out to the list to see if anyone else has worked through this. > > We recently installed our first Conext Gateway in hopes of getting better monitoring and control through Insight 2 portal. We installed it on an XW 5548, AGS, Batt Mon, HV-MPPT charge controller ~ 4 years old. > > For some reason, we cannot make changes to the system via the portal. The monitoring is much better but the control isn't functional. When I make a parameter change, it asks for the username and password but then gives this error every time: > > > > I verified that I am entering the Gateway admin username and the new password that I assigned. I can log into it locally, directly through the Access Pt functionality. > > Any suggestions? Schneider isn't responding and its a snow cat ride to get into the site. > > Thanks > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gary at arp-solar.com Fri Jan 31 10:25:20 2020 From: gary at arp-solar.com (gary easton) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 10:25:20 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New member Message-ID: I am sorry for this off topic question but how do I suggest a new member? -- Sunny Regards, Gary Easton *Appalachian Renewable Power **Celebrating over 10 years of bringing power to the people!* 10131 Haga Ridge Stewart, Ohio 45778 NABCEP Certified Solar PV #031508-29 T: 740-277-8498 www.arp-solar.com “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.” ~Gandhi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Jan 31 10:35:57 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 10:35:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schnieders LACK OF SUPPORT! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Im sorry, BUT Sandra you should NOT be the ONLY resort to Schnieders LACK OF SUPPORT! This has been an issue for a long time. WTFO Schneider, Tristen, Jack, lets get corporate in on these frustrations! We as installers are providing you folks jobs, because we purchase components with the belief that said products are ready TO INSTALL remotely OR connected to the grid. You folks get your paychecks despite how poor/ non existent the “support” is, while we loose clients. > On Jan 31, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Sandra Herrera wrote: > > Mac, > > Please verify you have the latest firmware on the Gateway. > Also send me a screenshot of the about page, of the Gateway. > Contact me directly, thanks > > Sandra Herrera > Sandra.herrera at se.com > > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Mac Lewis > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 6:10 AM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Gateway Control > > [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] > > > > Hi Wrenches, > > I am working with Schneider on this but I haven't heard back in a few days so I thought I'd put it out to the list to see if anyone else has worked through this. > > We recently installed our first Conext Gateway in hopes of getting better monitoring and control through Insight 2 portal. We installed it on an XW 5548, AGS, Batt Mon, HV-MPPT charge controller ~ 4 years old. > > For some reason, we cannot make changes to the system via the portal. The monitoring is much better but the control isn't functional. When I make a parameter change, it asks for the username and password but then gives this error every time: > > > I verified that I am entering the Gateway admin username and the new password that I assigned. I can log into it locally, directly through the Access Pt functionality. > > Any suggestions? Schneider isn't responding and its a snow cat ride to get into the site. > > Thanks > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jan 31 11:08:26 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 08:08:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schnieders LACK OF SUPPORT! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1d1cfe44283b1a9fd4fd73630b8cdd1a@127.0.0.1> Sorry but I disagree. I have had excellent support from Schneider. The phone works every time I call mon-fri. The case numbers are responded to. The ones I make mistakes on and forget get closed with an e-mail to remind me. My opinion only, Schneider is not there to answer basic information found in manuals and online in videos. It is their decision to do this and if you need more you have other choices. For me, they are a no brainer with excellent electronics that just keep running. DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 10:35:57 -0500, Tump wrote: Im sorry, BUT Sandra you should NOT be the ONLY resort to Schnieders LACK OF SUPPORT! This has been an issue for a long time. WTFO Schneider, Tristen, Jack, lets get corporate in on these frustrations! We as installers are providing you folks jobs, because we purchase components with the belief that said products are ready TO INSTALL remotely OR connected to the grid. You folks get your paychecks despite how poor/ non existent the "support" is, while we loose clients. On Jan 31, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Sandra Herrera wrote: Mac, Please verify you have the latest firmware on the Gateway. Also send me a screenshot of the about page, of the Gateway. Contact me directly, thanks Sandra Herrera Sandra.herrera at se.com [4] FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Mac Lewis SENT: Friday, January 31, 2020 6:10 AM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Conext Gateway Control [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ------------------------- Hi Wrenches, I am working with Schneider on this but I haven't heard back in a few days so I thought I'd put it out to the list to see if anyone else has worked through this. We recently installed our first Conext Gateway in hopes of getting better monitoring and control through Insight 2 portal. We installed it on an XW 5548, AGS, Batt Mon, HV-MPPT charge controller ~ 4 years old. For some reason, we cannot make changes to the system via the portal. The monitoring is much better but the control isn't functional. When I make a parameter change, it asks for the username and password but then gives this error every time: I verified that I am entering the Gateway admin username and the new password that I assigned. I can log into it locally, directly through the Access Pt functionality. Any suggestions? Schneider isn't responding and its a snow cat ride to get into the site. Thanks -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -SÓCRATES ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [9] List rules font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] WWW.SWNL.NET [12] Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ _ SERVING MID COAST MAINE "> _ 207-832-7574 CL. 610-517-8401 _ _ __BLAIR "TUMP" MAY_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ __ NABCEP "CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER"_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ TRACE XANTREX "CERTIFIED" DEALER / INSTALLER"_ Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:Sandra.Herrera at se.com [4] mailto:Sandra.herrera at se.com [5] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ [12] http://webmail.sti.net/blocked::http://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jan 31 11:13:25 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 08:13:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Gateway Control In-Reply-To: <473744DF-088A-491C-943A-08DD716DEFD4@gmail.com> References: <473744DF-088A-491C-943A-08DD716DEFD4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48400d202240d7cf2040ae9e8e957b40@127.0.0.1> Luke, To make changes from Insight2 to the gateway it can be easy to forget that the gateway that you are making the change on, from Insight2, has to use that gateways credentials on Insight2 to make the change. The system is fast and a change for me is less than 3 seconds. Pretty amazing system. I like it alot and can help more with an e-mail. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 07:44:15 -0700, Luke Christy wrote: Hi Mac, I have a very similar issue to yours with a customer's remote cabin and the need to be able to monitor and change settings remotely. I installed my first Gateway with a brand new Conext 4048 and an MPPT-150 controller and I'm having the exact same trouble and am getting the same error message. Before installation, I actually thought I had verified that I could make settings changes through the internet on a bench test using the admin password, etc, however, once the system was installed I haven't been able to get it to work despite verifying my passwords and making a long trip for a return visit to the site. Perhaps someone else has some insight? I'm glad to know that this may be a larger issue. -Luke Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional On Jan 31, 2020, at 07:10, Mac Lewis wrote: Hi Wrenches, I am working with Schneider on this but I haven't heard back in a few days so I thought I'd put it out to the list to see if anyone else has worked through this. We recently installed our first Conext Gateway in hopes of getting better monitoring and control through Insight 2 portal. We installed it on an XW 5548, AGS, Batt Mon, HV-MPPT charge controller ~ 4 years old. For some reason, we cannot make changes to the system via the portal. The monitoring is much better but the control isn't functional. When I make a parameter change, it asks for the username and password but then gives this error every time: I verified that I am entering the Gateway admin username and the new password that I assigned. I can log into it locally, directly through the Access Pt functionality. Any suggestions? Schneider isn't responding and its a snow cat ride to get into the site. Thanks -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jan 31 11:24:30 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 08:24:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Gateway Control In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9f4a780e1e0712efc0ba6764cae066f7@127.0.0.1> YOU MUST USE THE GATEWAY CREDENTIALS TO MAKE THE CHANGE ON INSIGHT2. It should prompt this. It should be added to the configuration in the quick start manual. That was suggested during beta but has not been done yet. HINT HINT Schneider! https://41j5tc3akbrn3uezx5av0jj1bgm-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ml201912_conext-insight-2-quick-start-guide-975-0953-01-02.pdf [1] Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [3] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 07:10:29 -0700, Mac Lewis wrote: Hi Wrenches, I am working with Schneider on this but I haven't heard back in a few days so I thought I'd put it out to the list to see if anyone else has worked through this. We recently installed our first Conext Gateway in hopes of getting better monitoring and control through Insight 2 portal. We installed it on an XW 5548, AGS, Batt Mon, HV-MPPT charge controller ~ 4 years old. For some reason, we cannot make changes to the system via the portal. The monitoring is much better but the control isn't functional. When I make a parameter change, it asks for the username and password but then gives this error every time: Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates Links: ------ [1] https://41j5tc3akbrn3uezx5av0jj1bgm-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ml201912_conext-insight-2-quick-start-guide-975-0953-01-02.pdf [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 13904 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Jan 31 11:41:07 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 09:41:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Gateway Control In-Reply-To: <9f4a780e1e0712efc0ba6764cae066f7@127.0.0.1> References: <9f4a780e1e0712efc0ba6764cae066f7@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Yes, I am logging in with Gateway credentials (Admin only), not Insight 2 credentials. It still will not allow changes. I am working through this with Sandra and will report back once I get it figured out. Firmware has been updated to the v1.05 Build 403. Thanks On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 9:24 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > *You must use the gateway credentials to make the change on Insight2. * > > It should prompt this. It should be added to the configuration in the > quick start manual. That was suggested during beta but has not been done > yet. HINT HINT Schneider! > > > > > https://41j5tc3akbrn3uezx5av0jj1bgm-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ml201912_conext-insight-2-quick-start-guide-975-0953-01-02.pdf > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 07:10:29 -0700, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > I am working with Schneider on this but I haven't heard back in a few days > so I thought I'd put it out to the list to see if anyone else has worked > through this. > > We recently installed our first Conext Gateway in hopes of getting better > monitoring and control through Insight 2 portal. We installed it on an XW > 5548, AGS, Batt Mon, HV-MPPT charge controller ~ 4 years old. > > For some reason, we cannot make changes to the system via the portal. The > monitoring is much better but the control isn't functional. When I make a > parameter change, it asks for the username and password but then gives this > error every time: > [image: image.png] > > I verified that I am entering the Gateway admin username and the new > password that I assigned. I can log into it locally, directly through the > Access Pt functionality. > > Any suggestions? Schneider isn't responding and its a snow cat ride to > get into the site. > > Thanks > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 13904 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri Jan 31 11:48:37 2020 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 08:48:37 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with another Out of Production Panel In-Reply-To: <1899082309.764092.1580312561686@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1899082309.764092.1580312561686.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1899082309.764092.1580312561686@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <36872e14-3cac-5e8d-202b-0b8be35041cf@psln.com> There was a period of time when we were installing Mitsubishi PVs.  Now we are seeing issues with installs where we were using Mitsubishi MF170EB3 panels, bubbling backsheets, occasional bad solder joints, many with half the label's VOC voltage.  We actually just discovered one panel that was putting out 2X the rated SC amps, seriously, we tested it several times, dumbfounded.             We have gone through the warranty process (major headache) with Mitsu before and they have told us they have never seen any of these problem before.  Anybody else seeing these things happening?... to help support our claim. Thanks for any input, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Fri Jan 31 12:18:28 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 09:18:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Gateway Control In-Reply-To: <473744DF-088A-491C-943A-08DD716DEFD4@gmail.com> References: <473744DF-088A-491C-943A-08DD716DEFD4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Mac and Luke and Wrenches, I'm having the exact same issue.  It hasn't been a pressing problem right away as I've been having access to the site but I was hoping my last visit where I added Users and Admins and Installers would fix it due to permissions levels.  But in Admins and Installers I still get the same thing: "DEVICE NOT READY OR INVALID CREDENTIALS, PLEASE TRY AGAIN" And like Mac I can log in and make changes when I'm on site using the direct interface but not through InSight2.0. I've also checked numerous times that I'm using the correct Gateway credentials. Sandra? Thanks, Jeff Luke Christy wrote on 1/31/20 6:44 AM: > Hi Mac, > I have a very similar issue to yours with a customer’s remote cabin > and the need to be able to monitor and change settings remotely. I > installed my first Gateway with a brand new Conext 4048 and an > MPPT-150 controller and I’m having the exact same trouble and am > getting the same error message. Before installation, I actually > thought I had verified that I could make settings changes through the > internet on a bench test using the admin password, etc, however, once > the system was installed I haven’t been able to get it to work despite > verifying my passwords and making a long trip for a return visit to > the site. > > Perhaps someone else has some insight? > I’m glad to know that this may be a larger issue. > > -Luke > > > Luke Christy > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > >> On Jan 31, 2020, at 07:10, Mac Lewis wrote: >> >>  >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> I am working with Schneider on this but I haven't heard back in a few >> days so I thought I'd put it out to the list to see if anyone else >> has worked through this. >> >> We recently installed our first Conext Gateway in hopes of getting >> better monitoring and control through Insight 2 portal.  We installed >> it on an XW 5548, AGS, Batt Mon, HV-MPPT charge controller ~ 4 years old. >> >> For some reason, we cannot make changes to the system via the >> portal.  The monitoring is much better but the control isn't >> functional.  When I make a parameter change, it asks for the username >> and password but then gives this error every time: >> >> >> >> I verified that I am entering the Gateway admin username and the new >> password that I assigned.  I can log into it locally, >> directly through the Access Pt functionality. >> >> Any suggestions? Schneider isn't responding and its a snow cat ride >> to get into the site. >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> * >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> * >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Fri Jan 31 12:33:44 2020 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 07:33:44 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience Message-ID: Aloha Wrenches, I am starting to explore Sol-Ark's product line. The last mention of them on the list was April of 2019 with nobody having actual tested or installed one. Anybody have experience with them ? Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Jan 31 11:15:06 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 08:15:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Xanbus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac: 1. We have had this issue for years. Specifically this affects AGS units. We were told that bus cables had to be a minimum of 6’ to avoid “ringing.” Later (after we purchased and replaced cables) we were told there was no foundation for this claim. 2. Some Fluke advanced testers we have looked at have a “bus health” test function. I think this is in the 125B Scope Meter and I see reference to the function with a BHT190 break out adapter. The literature indicates applications on the following bus architectures: Profibus, Foundation, Modbus, CAN-bus, AS-i bus and RS-485. I will leave it to you to research if this function would be helpful. BTW, the Scopemeter is about $3K and hard to get in a hurry. You could probably rent one. I wish you good luck in resolving your issue. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Mac Lewis *Sent:* Friday, January 31, 2020 6:19 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Xanbus Hi Wrenches, Does anyone have a good way to locate intermittent Xanbus issues with Schneider equipment? We have a site that has been giving us a lot of issues. It seems like the AGS might be dropping in and out and defaulting to "Off". It works flawlessly when we are there of course. Cables are testing fine. No other device seems to have these issues. All of these cables are factory made. Maybe there is another explanation for the AGS defaulting to "Off". Thanks in advance for your help -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From doug at solarpluskauai.com Fri Jan 31 13:15:06 2020 From: doug at solarpluskauai.com (Doug Phillips) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 08:15:06 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007c01d5d862$5e432130$1ac96390$@solarpluskauai.com> Hey Wrenches, I have installed ~15 Sol-Ark 8k’s over the last year and have a few 12k’s lined up for the coming month. I have basically fallen head over heels for the product and the company. The machine itself works beautifully and is quick and easy to install (no external cc’s !). I also believe that the thoughtful clean sheet design of the machine has allowed it to surpass the functionality/efficiency of most of its competitors. In addition, Sol-Ark is constantly improving their firmware, and increasing their feature list via over the air updates. Safe to say I haven’t installed a Radian since my first Sol-Ark. I’d be happy to answer any specific questions you may have. Aloha, Doug Phillips, President Solar Plus, Inc www.solarpluskauai.com PO Box 771 Hanalei, HI 96714 808-639-7646 cell 808-826-6361 office From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Lou Russo Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 7:34 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience Aloha Wrenches, I am starting to explore Sol-Ark's product line. The last mention of them on the list was April of 2019 with nobody having actual tested or installed one. Anybody have experience with them ? Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Fri Jan 31 13:18:46 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 10:18:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Xanbus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mac and William, This is interesting because I was having an issue of the Xanbus network not seeing the Battery Monitor until I replaced an ethernet cable.  My present theory is that the white ethernet cables being supplied by Schnieder are marginal. Given that many of our systems locate the monitoring components close to the main battery DC Inverter cables and that the EMF noisy PV charge controls with their medium voltage DC are also nearby -  especially going through the tight quarters of a MidNite E-panel or equivalent - it strikes me that inductive currents or EMF noise could be the culprit. I'm wondering if for future installs I should just make up my own cables from shielded CAT6 as a standard practice for all ethernet-based comm systems?  That said I've never had a problem with SMA - only Schnieder. Thoughts? Best, Jeff William Miller wrote on 1/31/20 8:15 AM: > > Mac: > > 1.We have had this issue for years.  Specifically this affects AGS > units. We were told that bus cables had to be a minimum of 6’ to avoid > “ringing.”  Later (after we purchased and replaced cables) we were > told there was no foundation for this claim. > > 2.Some Fluke advanced testers we have looked at have a “bus health” > test function.  I think this is in the 125B Scope Meter and I see > reference to the function with a BHT190 break out adapter.  The > literature indicates applications on the following bus architectures:  > Profibus, Foundation, Modbus, CAN-bus, AS-i bus and RS-485.  I will > leave it to you to research if this function would be helpful.   BTW, > the Scopemeter is about $3K and hard to get in a hurry.  You could > probably rent one. > > I wish you good luck in resolving your issue. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Mac > Lewis > *Sent:* Friday, January 31, 2020 6:19 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Xanbus > > Hi Wrenches, > > Does anyone have a good way to locate intermittent Xanbus issues with > Schneider equipment?  We have a site that has been giving us a lot of > issues.  It seems like the AGS might be dropping in and out and > defaulting to "Off".  It works flawlessly when we are there of > course.  Cables are testing fine.  No other device seems to have these > issues.  All of these cables are factory made. > > Maybe there is another explanation for the AGS defaulting to "Off". > > Thanks in advance for your help > > -- > > Mac Lewis** > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates*** > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russo.lou at gmail.com Fri Jan 31 13:55:04 2020 From: russo.lou at gmail.com (Lou Russo) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 08:55:04 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience In-Reply-To: <007c01d5d862$5e432130$1ac96390$@solarpluskauai.com> References: <007c01d5d862$5e432130$1ac96390$@solarpluskauai.com> Message-ID: Doug, 1. Any failures once installed? 2. What are you doing to meet 690.12 ? 3. Do you know if is field repairable at all? Aloha, Lou Russo (808) 345 6762 On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 8:15 AM Doug Phillips wrote: > Hey Wrenches, > > > > I have installed ~15 Sol-Ark 8k’s over the last year and have a few 12k’s > lined up for the coming month. I have basically fallen head over heels for > the product and the company. The machine itself works beautifully and is > quick and easy to install (no external cc’s !). I also believe that the > thoughtful clean sheet design of the machine has allowed it to surpass the > functionality/efficiency of most of its competitors. In addition, Sol-Ark > is constantly improving their firmware, and increasing their feature list > via over the air updates. Safe to say I haven’t installed a Radian since > my first Sol-Ark. > > > > I’d be happy to answer any specific questions you may have. > > > > Aloha, > > > > Doug Phillips, President > > Solar Plus, Inc www.solarpluskauai.com > > PO Box 771 > > Hanalei, HI 96714 > > 808-639-7646 <(808)%20639-7646> cell > > 808-826-6361 <(808)%20826-6361> office > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Lou Russo > *Sent:* Friday, January 31, 2020 7:34 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience > > > > Aloha Wrenches, > > > > I am starting to explore Sol-Ark's product line. The last mention of them > on the > > list was April of 2019 with nobody having actual tested or installed one. > > > > Anybody have experience with them ? > > > Aloha, > > > > Lou Russo > > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > > 808 345 6762 > > Spree Solar Systems LLC > > CT-34322 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Jan 31 14:16:09 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 12:16:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Gateway Control In-Reply-To: References: <473744DF-088A-491C-943A-08DD716DEFD4@gmail.com> Message-ID: We inherited a Schneider system recently and have been attempting to add remote monitoring etc.  I have an electrical engineer on my team with significant com experience.  Our opinion to date: 1) The Schneider system is the most complicated, kludgy solution I've ever encountered with separate boxes and cables running amok everywhere: certainly an inelegant solution. 2) The Manuals do not fully cover all of the setup, so Wrench comments chastising others for contacting Schneider with basic questions covered in the manual are way off base. 3) Schneider tech support is some of the worst right now: we need field support when we are on site, instead, we get a call back a week later.  Only SMA's lack of support for the Sunny Islands is worse. (they don't call back at all....) 4) When we do finally get a call back a week later, they can't answer any of our questions, and can't seem to forward us to anyone who can. My conclusion: The entire Schneider SCADA package is way over priced, thrown together, not fully integrated, over promised, released before it was ready, and comes with virtually no SCADA support for installation or trouble shooting after.  At least I feel better knowing its not just us. Compare this to something like the Bluetooth enabled SOC monitoring that comes FREE with LiFe blue batteries, and it tells me Schneider needs to just hit /Delete /and start over. In the 21st century, we have smart phones with apps that connect automatically, equipment that is actually plug and play, and software that is so intuitive you don't need the manual, much less call anyone. As I've said going back to the Outback Mate days, offgrid solar SCADA is at least a decade behind the rest of the world. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/31/20 10:18 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > Hi Mac and Luke and Wrenches, > > I'm having the exact same issue.  It hasn't been a pressing problem > right away as I've been having access to the site but I was hoping my > last visit where I added Users and Admins and Installers would fix it > due to permissions levels.  But in Admins and Installers I still get > the same thing: > > "DEVICE NOT READY OR INVALID CREDENTIALS, PLEASE TRY AGAIN" > > And like Mac I can log in and make changes when I'm on site using the > direct interface but not through InSight2.0. > > I've also checked numerous times that I'm using the correct Gateway > credentials. > > Sandra? > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > Luke Christy wrote on 1/31/20 6:44 AM: >> Hi Mac, >> I have a very similar issue to yours with a customer’s remote cabin >> and the need to be able to monitor and change settings remotely. I >> installed my first Gateway with a brand new Conext 4048 and an >> MPPT-150 controller and I’m having the exact same trouble and am >> getting the same error message. Before installation, I actually >> thought I had verified that I could make settings changes through the >> internet on a bench test using the admin password, etc, however, once >> the system was installed I haven’t been able to get it to work >> despite verifying my passwords and making a long trip for a return >> visit to the site. >> >> Perhaps someone else has some insight? >> I’m glad to know that this may be a larger issue. >> >> -Luke >> >> >> Luke Christy >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> >>> On Jan 31, 2020, at 07:10, Mac Lewis wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Hi Wrenches, >>> >>> I am working with Schneider on this but I haven't heard back in a >>> few days so I thought I'd put it out to the list to see if anyone >>> else has worked through this. >>> >>> We recently installed our first Conext Gateway in hopes of getting >>> better monitoring and control through Insight 2 portal.  We >>> installed it on an XW 5548, AGS, Batt Mon, HV-MPPT charge controller >>> ~ 4 years old. >>> >>> For some reason, we cannot make changes to the system via the >>> portal.  The monitoring is much better but the control isn't >>> functional.  When I make a parameter change, it asks for the >>> username and password but then gives this error every time: >>> >>> >>> >>> I verified that I am entering the Gateway admin username and the new >>> password that I assigned.  I can log into it locally, >>> directly through the Access Pt functionality. >>> >>> Any suggestions?  Schneider isn't responding and its a snow cat ride >>> to get into the site. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> * >>> >>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>> >>> * >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Fri Jan 31 14:29:04 2020 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 13:29:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience In-Reply-To: <007c01d5d862$5e432130$1ac96390$@solarpluskauai.com> References: <007c01d5d862$5e432130$1ac96390$@solarpluskauai.com> Message-ID: <92A89F81-523A-4DE4-9C95-FA2A8AD92199@mavericksolar.com> Doug Well, can I edit bulk, absorb and float to 50.5 and LBCO <=40V? Asking for a friend... Thank you, Maverick > On Jan 31, 2020, at 12:15 PM, Doug Phillips wrote: > >  > Hey Wrenches, > > I have installed ~15 Sol-Ark 8k’s over the last year and have a few 12k’s lined up for the coming month. I have basically fallen head over heels for the product and the company. The machine itself works beautifully and is quick and easy to install (no external cc’s !). I also believe that the thoughtful clean sheet design of the machine has allowed it to surpass the functionality/efficiency of most of its competitors. In addition, Sol-Ark is constantly improving their firmware, and increasing their feature list via over the air updates. Safe to say I haven’t installed a Radian since my first Sol-Ark. > > I’d be happy to answer any specific questions you may have. > > Aloha, > > Doug Phillips, President > Solar Plus, Inc www.solarpluskauai.com > PO Box 771 > Hanalei, HI 96714 > 808-639-7646 cell > 808-826-6361 office > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Lou Russo > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 7:34 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience > > Aloha Wrenches, > > I am starting to explore Sol-Ark's product line. The last mention of them on the > list was April of 2019 with nobody having actual tested or installed one. > > Anybody have experience with them ? > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Fri Jan 31 14:50:26 2020 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 11:50:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Problems with Conext SW inverter Message-ID: I recently discovered a critical problem with a client's SW inverter and I want to know if others have encountered this. It's an SW4024 with Flooded Lead Acid batteries. The system is configured using the Custom Battery setting: Bulk and Absorption are set to 29.2 V. Equalize is set to 32 V. The problem is when Equalize is enabled, the system goes through Bulk and Absorption just fine. However, when it switches to Equalize it doesn't actually equalize. What I observed was the voltage actually decreased to 0.5 V below the Absorption Voltage setting. Eric Smiley, P.Eng. Project Manager, North Island E: eric at vecoop.ca T: 1-888-386-0116 ext 702 (toll free) C: 250-703-6004 W: viridianenergy.ca RENEWABLE POWER NOW -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Jan 31 14:54:06 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 12:54:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Problems with Conext SW inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2a0c6d86-0d29-a75b-5fc8-517aecb6c026@solarray.com> That was an issue back in the 90s with the original Trace SW 4024 inverters as well.  The solution was just to temporarily set the normal bulk setting to the required EQ voltage.  Never did figure that one out, but they were otherwise great inverters that are still in service today. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/31/20 12:50 PM, Eric Smiley wrote: > I recently discovered a critical problem with a client's SW inverter > and I want to know if others have encountered this. > It's an SW4024 with Flooded Lead Acid batteries. The system is > configured using the Custom Battery setting: Bulk and Absorption are > set to 29.2 V. Equalize is set to 32 V. > The problem is when Equalize is enabled, the system goes through Bulk > and Absorption just fine. However, when it switches to Equalize it > doesn't actually equalize. What I observed was the voltage actually > decreased to 0.5 V below the Absorption Voltage setting. > > Eric Smiley, P.Eng. > > Project Manager, North Island > > > E: eric at vecoop.ca > > T:  1-888-386-0116 ext 702 (toll free) > > C:  250-703-6004 > > W: viridianenergy.ca > > > > > RENEWABLE POWERNOW > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Fri Jan 31 14:56:38 2020 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 13:56:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Problems with Conext SW inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is this an off grid system? If so, the generator needs to be running to execute EQ on the inverter. Thank you, Maverick > On Jan 31, 2020, at 1:50 PM, Eric Smiley wrote: > >  > I recently discovered a critical problem with a client's SW inverter and I want to know if others have encountered this. > It's an SW4024 with Flooded Lead Acid batteries. The system is configured using the Custom Battery setting: Bulk and Absorption are set to 29.2 V. Equalize is set to 32 V. > The problem is when Equalize is enabled, the system goes through Bulk and Absorption just fine. However, when it switches to Equalize it doesn't actually equalize. What I observed was the voltage actually decreased to 0.5 V below the Absorption Voltage setting. > > Eric Smiley, P.Eng. > Project Manager, North Island > > E: eric at vecoop.ca > T: 1-888-386-0116 ext 702 (toll free) > C: 250-703-6004 > W: viridianenergy.ca > > > RENEWABLE POWER NOW > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From doug at solarpluskauai.com Fri Jan 31 15:15:13 2020 From: doug at solarpluskauai.com (Doug Phillips) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 10:15:13 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience In-Reply-To: <92A89F81-523A-4DE4-9C95-FA2A8AD92199@mavericksolar.com> References: <92A89F81-523A-4DE4-9C95-FA2A8AD92199@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: I’ve never tried that low, what battery? Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 31, 2020, at 9:29 AM, Maverick Brown wrote: > > Doug > > Well, can I edit bulk, absorb and float to 50.5 and LBCO <=40V? > > Asking for a friend... > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > >>> On Jan 31, 2020, at 12:15 PM, Doug Phillips wrote: >>> >>  >> Hey Wrenches, >> >> I have installed ~15 Sol-Ark 8k’s over the last year and have a few 12k’s lined up for the coming month. I have basically fallen head over heels for the product and the company. The machine itself works beautifully and is quick and easy to install (no external cc’s !). I also believe that the thoughtful clean sheet design of the machine has allowed it to surpass the functionality/efficiency of most of its competitors. In addition, Sol-Ark is constantly improving their firmware, and increasing their feature list via over the air updates. Safe to say I haven’t installed a Radian since my first Sol-Ark. >> >> I’d be happy to answer any specific questions you may have. >> >> Aloha, >> >> Doug Phillips, President >> Solar Plus, Inc www.solarpluskauai.com >> PO Box 771 >> Hanalei, HI 96714 >> 808-639-7646 cell >> 808-826-6361 office >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Lou Russo >> Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 7:34 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience >> >> Aloha Wrenches, >> >> I am starting to explore Sol-Ark's product line. The last mention of them on the >> list was April of 2019 with nobody having actual tested or installed one. >> >> Anybody have experience with them ? >> >> Aloha, >> >> Lou Russo >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> 808 345 6762 >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> CT-34322 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Fri Jan 31 15:26:47 2020 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 14:26:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <430F1B82-B74A-42EB-90B3-559FCE3DAC44@mavericksolar.com> Doug Thanks for the quick reply! The battery is actually a Tesla Model S sedan car battery. Each brick is 21.6V nominal. I tried to get support from Sol-Ark. The current plan is to use two radians. I have XW and Radians in my own my system. I just wanted know about the Sol-Ark. I love that inverter on paper and was looking to get one. Thank you, Maverick > On Jan 31, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Doug Phillips wrote: > > I’ve never tried that low, what battery? > > Sent from my iPhone > >>> On Jan 31, 2020, at 9:29 AM, Maverick Brown wrote: >>> >> Doug >> >> Well, can I edit bulk, absorb and float to 50.5 and LBCO <=40V? >> >> Asking for a friend... >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> >>>> On Jan 31, 2020, at 12:15 PM, Doug Phillips wrote: >>>> >>>  >>> Hey Wrenches, >>> >>> I have installed ~15 Sol-Ark 8k’s over the last year and have a few 12k’s lined up for the coming month. I have basically fallen head over heels for the product and the company. The machine itself works beautifully and is quick and easy to install (no external cc’s !). I also believe that the thoughtful clean sheet design of the machine has allowed it to surpass the functionality/efficiency of most of its competitors. In addition, Sol-Ark is constantly improving their firmware, and increasing their feature list via over the air updates. Safe to say I haven’t installed a Radian since my first Sol-Ark. >>> >>> I’d be happy to answer any specific questions you may have. >>> >>> Aloha, >>> >>> Doug Phillips, President >>> Solar Plus, Inc www.solarpluskauai.com >>> PO Box 771 >>> Hanalei, HI 96714 >>> 808-639-7646 cell >>> 808-826-6361 office >>> >>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Lou Russo >>> Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 7:34 AM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience >>> >>> Aloha Wrenches, >>> >>> I am starting to explore Sol-Ark's product line. The last mention of them on the >>> list was April of 2019 with nobody having actual tested or installed one. >>> >>> Anybody have experience with them ? >>> >>> Aloha, >>> >>> Lou Russo >>> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >>> 808 345 6762 >>> Spree Solar Systems LLC >>> CT-34322 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Fri Jan 31 14:46:11 2020 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 13:46:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Xanbus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just to be clear the 8-pin RJ 45 cables are not Ethernet. They are Xanbus which is a version of Canbus, a type of serial communication. I’ve had some trouble shooting of Xanbus where the AGS was intermittent. I happen to have just finished a Radian job and had a bunch of green cables with me. I used those to replace the white cables and never had a problem afterwards. In other cases, I have also made custom cables some very short and I made sure to terminate the last Xanbus connection and I usually use a long wound up cable at the termination point. I also started putting silicone jelly on all connections and that seems to help with longevity. A Canbus protocol analyzer or maybe an active Ethernet tester could help investigate extra difficulty. Good luck! Maverick > On Jan 31, 2020, at 12:19 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > >  Hi Mac and William, > > This is interesting because I was having an issue of the Xanbus network not seeing the Battery Monitor until I replaced an ethernet cable. My present theory is that the white ethernet cables being supplied by Schnieder are marginal. > > Given that many of our systems locate the monitoring components close to the main battery DC Inverter cables and that the EMF noisy PV charge controls with their medium voltage DC are also nearby - especially going through the tight quarters of a MidNite E-panel or equivalent - it strikes me that inductive currents or EMF noise could be the culprit. > > I'm wondering if for future installs I should just make up my own cables from shielded CAT6 as a standard practice for all ethernet-based comm systems? That said I've never had a problem with SMA - only Schnieder. > > Thoughts? > > Best, > > Jeff > > William Miller wrote on 1/31/20 8:15 AM: >> Mac: >> >> 1. We have had this issue for years. Specifically this affects AGS units. We were told that bus cables had to be a minimum of 6’ to avoid “ringing.” Later (after we purchased and replaced cables) we were told there was no foundation for this claim. >> 2. Some Fluke advanced testers we have looked at have a “bus health” test function. I think this is in the 125B Scope Meter and I see reference to the function with a BHT190 break out adapter. The literature indicates applications on the following bus architectures: Profibus, Foundation, Modbus, CAN-bus, AS-i bus and RS-485. I will leave it to you to research if this function would be helpful. BTW, the Scopemeter is about $3K and hard to get in a hurry. You could probably rent one. >> >> I wish you good luck in resolving your issue. >> >> William >> >> Miller Solar >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis >> Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 6:19 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Xanbus >> >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> Does anyone have a good way to locate intermittent Xanbus issues with Schneider equipment? We have a site that has been giving us a lot of issues. It seems like the AGS might be dropping in and out and defaulting to "Off". It works flawlessly when we are there of course. Cables are testing fine. No other device seems to have these issues. All of these cables are factory made. >> >> Maybe there is another explanation for the AGS defaulting to "Off". >> >> Thanks in advance for your help >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jan 31 16:45:59 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 13:45:59 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Gateway Control In-Reply-To: References: <473744DF-088A-491C-943A-08DD716DEFD4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b07c560aae6dcda881d248f0279ccb5@127.0.0.1> I really have not had any problems with support (monday thru friday they answer the phone) or the equipment. Sorry to not be very helpful. You can email me and I can attempt to help. FYI I just changed the SCP button beep in the country of Ghana from Mariposa. Client wondered how that got turned on The gateway system and Insight2 work as advertised. I have heard similar problems over the years with Optics and I know you guys have also. Some folks should not have the need for this monitoring and if they do, they need to devote the time before they get clients involved. My humble opinion. FRIDAY ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 12:16:09 -0700, Ray wrote: We inherited a Schneider system recently and have been attempting to add remote monitoring etc. I have an electrical engineer on my team with significant com experience. Our opinion to date: 1) The Schneider system is the most complicated, kludgy solution I've ever encountered with separate boxes and cables running amok everywhere: certainly an inelegant solution. 2) The Manuals do not fully cover all of the setup, so Wrench comments chastising others for contacting Schneider with basic questions covered in the manual are way off base. 3) Schneider tech support is some of the worst right now: we need field support when we are on site, instead, we get a call back a week later. Only SMA's lack of support for the Sunny Islands is worse. (they don't call back at all....) 4) When we do finally get a call back a week later, they can't answer any of our questions, and can't seem to forward us to anyone who can. My conclusion: The entire Schneider SCADA package is way over priced, thrown together, not fully integrated, over promised, released before it was ready, and comes with virtually no SCADA support for installation or trouble shooting after. At least I feel better knowing its not just us. Compare this to something like the Bluetooth enabled SOC monitoring that comes FREE with LiFe blue batteries, and it tells me Schneider needs to just hit _Delete _and start over. In the 21st century, we have smart phones with apps that connect automatically, equipment that is actually plug and play, and software that is so intuitive you don't need the manual, much less call anyone. As I've said going back to the Outback Mate days, offgrid solar SCADA is at least a decade behind the rest of the world. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/31/20 10:18 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hi Mac and Luke and Wrenches, I'm having the exact same issue. It hasn't been a pressing problem right away as I've been having access to the site but I was hoping my last visit where I added Users and Admins and Installers would fix it due to permissions levels. But in Admins and Installers I still get the same thing: "DEVICE NOT READY OR INVALID CREDENTIALS, PLEASE TRY AGAIN" And like Mac I can log in and make changes when I'm on site using the direct interface but not through InSight2.0. I've also checked numerous times that I'm using the correct Gateway credentials. Sandra? Thanks, Jeff Luke Christy wrote on 1/31/20 6:44 AM: Hi Mac, I have a very similar issue to yours with a customer's remote cabin and the need to be able to monitor and change settings remotely. I installed my first Gateway with a brand new Conext 4048 and an MPPT-150 controller and I'm having the exact same trouble and am getting the same error message. Before installation, I actually thought I had verified that I could make settings changes through the internet on a bench test using the admin password, etc, however, once the system was installed I haven't been able to get it to work despite verifying my passwords and making a long trip for a return visit to the site. Perhaps someone else has some insight? I'm glad to know that this may be a larger issue. -Luke Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional On Jan 31, 2020, at 07:10, Mac Lewis [3] wrote: Hi Wrenches, I am working with Schneider on this but I haven't heard back in a few days so I thought I'd put it out to the list to see if anyone else has worked through this. We recently installed our first Conext Gateway in hopes of getting better monitoring and control through Insight 2 portal. We installed it on an XW 5548, AGS, Batt Mon, HV-MPPT charge controller ~ 4 years old. For some reason, we cannot make changes to the system via the portal. The monitoring is much better but the control isn't functional. When I make a parameter change, it asks for the username and password but then gives this error every time: I verified that I am entering the Gateway admin username and the new password that I assigned. I can log into it locally, directly through the Access Pt functionality. Any suggestions? Schneider isn't responding and its a snow cat ride to get into the site. Thanks -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [8] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [11] List rules font-size: inherit; padding: 0px; color: #505050;">413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [18] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [19] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [20] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:maclewis1 at gmail.com [4] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [9] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [12] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [14] https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/ [15] http://www.villagepowerdesign.com [16] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [19] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [20] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Jan 31 17:09:08 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:09:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote monitoring & BT connectivity In-Reply-To: References: <473744DF-088A-491C-943A-08DD716DEFD4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1496B2C5-DDC2-43A5-AD98-F1B7BF0C2D6B@swnl.net> Looking forward to additional UL listed Victron products. This LUDITE can easily set up and interface remotely using their BT and their VRM portal. Check it out www.victron.com . Its IS frightening that this is so installer friendly using …..well trying to use my smart phone. T > On Jan 31, 2020, at 2:16 PM, Ray wrote: > > We inherited a Schneider system recently and have been attempting to add remote monitoring etc. I have an electrical engineer on my team with significant com experience. Our opinion to date: > > 1) The Schneider system is the most complicated, kludgy solution I've ever encountered with separate boxes and cables running amok everywhere: certainly an inelegant solution. > > 2) The Manuals do not fully cover all of the setup, so Wrench comments chastising others for contacting Schneider with basic questions covered in the manual are way off base. > 3) Schneider tech support is some of the worst right now: we need field support when we are on site, instead, we get a call back a week later. Only SMA's lack of support for the Sunny Islands is worse. (they don't call back at all....) > 4) When we do finally get a call back a week later, they can't answer any of our questions, and can't seem to forward us to anyone who can. > > My conclusion: > The entire Schneider SCADA package is way over priced, thrown together, not fully integrated, over promised, released before it was ready, and comes with virtually no SCADA support for installation or trouble shooting after. At least I feel better knowing its not just us. > Compare this to something like the Bluetooth enabled SOC monitoring that comes FREE with LiFe blue batteries, and it tells me Schneider needs to just hit Delete and start over. > In the 21st century, we have smart phones with apps that connect automatically, equipment that is actually plug and play, and software that is so intuitive you don't need the manual, much less call anyone. As I've said going back to the Outback Mate days, offgrid solar SCADA is at least a decade behind the rest of the world. > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 1/31/20 10:18 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >> Hi Mac and Luke and Wrenches, >> >> I'm having the exact same issue. It hasn't been a pressing problem right away as I've been having access to the site but I was hoping my last visit where I added Users and Admins and Installers would fix it due to permissions levels. But in Admins and Installers I still get the same thing: >> >> "DEVICE NOT READY OR INVALID CREDENTIALS, PLEASE TRY AGAIN" >> >> And like Mac I can log in and make changes when I'm on site using the direct interface but not through InSight2.0. >> >> I've also checked numerous times that I'm using the correct Gateway credentials. >> >> Sandra? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jeff >> >> Luke Christy wrote on 1/31/20 6:44 AM: >>> Hi Mac, >>> I have a very similar issue to yours with a customer’s remote cabin and the need to be able to monitor and change settings remotely. I installed my first Gateway with a brand new Conext 4048 and an MPPT-150 controller and I’m having the exact same trouble and am getting the same error message. Before installation, I actually thought I had verified that I could make settings changes through the internet on a bench test using the admin password, etc, however, once the system was installed I haven’t been able to get it to work despite verifying my passwords and making a long trip for a return visit to the site. >>> >>> Perhaps someone else has some insight? >>> I’m glad to know that this may be a larger issue. >>> >>> -Luke >>> >>> >>> Luke Christy >>> >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> >>>> On Jan 31, 2020, at 07:10, Mac Lewis wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> Hi Wrenches, >>>> >>>> I am working with Schneider on this but I haven't heard back in a few days so I thought I'd put it out to the list to see if anyone else has worked through this. >>>> >>>> We recently installed our first Conext Gateway in hopes of getting better monitoring and control through Insight 2 portal. We installed it on an XW 5548, AGS, Batt Mon, HV-MPPT charge controller ~ 4 years old. >>>> >>>> For some reason, we cannot make changes to the system via the portal. The monitoring is much better but the control isn't functional. When I make a parameter change, it asks for the username and password but then gives this error every time: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I verified that I am entering the Gateway admin username and the new password that I assigned. I can log into it locally, directly through the Access Pt functionality. >>>> >>>> Any suggestions? Schneider isn't responding and its a snow cat ride to get into the site. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Mac Lewis >>>> >>>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> -- >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> linkedin >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> cell - 413-559-9763 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Fri Jan 31 17:14:38 2020 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:14:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience In-Reply-To: <430F1B82-B74A-42EB-90B3-559FCE3DAC44@mavericksolar.com> References: <430F1B82-B74A-42EB-90B3-559FCE3DAC44@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <005f01d5d883$d423f7a0$7c6be6e0$@mindspring.com> Maverick We have a customer with a Sol-Ark and Tesla car batteries. The system, once the fine tuning was finished has performed great. Sol -Ark was very helpful even though this was not a traditional out of the box application. They were great with us as well as the customer ( who kept playing with the programing ). The system resides in a trailer with 3.5 KW of solar on top, 1 Sol-Ark 8 KW inverter and 80 KW of Tesla’s car batteries inside. It is a unique setup and as I said, Sol-Ark was great with guidance and support. Peter Giroux American Solar From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Maverick Brown Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 3:27 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience Doug Thanks for the quick reply! The battery is actually a Tesla Model S sedan car battery. Each brick is 21.6V nominal. I tried to get support from Sol-Ark. The current plan is to use two radians. I have XW and Radians in my own my system. I just wanted know about the Sol-Ark. I love that inverter on paper and was looking to get one. Thank you, Maverick On Jan 31, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Doug Phillips > wrote: I’ve never tried that low, what battery? Sent from my iPhone On Jan 31, 2020, at 9:29 AM, Maverick Brown > wrote: Doug Well, can I edit bulk, absorb and float to 50.5 and LBCO <=40V? Asking for a friend... Thank you, Maverick On Jan 31, 2020, at 12:15 PM, Doug Phillips > wrote:  Hey Wrenches, I have installed ~15 Sol-Ark 8k’s over the last year and have a few 12k’s lined up for the coming month. I have basically fallen head over heels for the product and the company. The machine itself works beautifully and is quick and easy to install (no external cc’s !). I also believe that the thoughtful clean sheet design of the machine has allowed it to surpass the functionality/efficiency of most of its competitors. In addition, Sol-Ark is constantly improving their firmware, and increasing their feature list via over the air updates. Safe to say I haven’t installed a Radian since my first Sol-Ark. I’d be happy to answer any specific questions you may have. Aloha, Doug Phillips, President Solar Plus, Inc www.solarpluskauai.com PO Box 771 Hanalei, HI 96714 808-639-7646 cell 808-826-6361 office From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Lou Russo Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 7:34 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience Aloha Wrenches, I am starting to explore Sol-Ark's product line. The last mention of them on the list was April of 2019 with nobody having actual tested or installed one. Anybody have experience with them ? Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Fri Jan 31 17:54:35 2020 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 16:54:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience In-Reply-To: <005f01d5d883$d423f7a0$7c6be6e0$@mindspring.com> References: <430F1B82-B74A-42EB-90B3-559FCE3DAC44@mavericksolar.com> <005f01d5d883$d423f7a0$7c6be6e0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Peter, I would be interested in knowing about your experience and any relevant settings. I contacted Sol-Ark and they said No-way. Maybe they were not aware or just don’t want the support hassle. It would be good to know for the next customer. For the current customer, I already order two Radians and 32 6P74S batteries. Maverick > On Jan 31, 2020, at 4:14 PM, wrote: > > Maverick > > We have a customer with a Sol-Ark and Tesla car batteries. The system, once the fine tuning was finished has performed great. Sol -Ark was very helpful even though this was not a traditional out of the box application. They were great with us as well as the customer ( who kept playing with the programing ). The system resides in a trailer with 3.5 KW of solar on top, 1 Sol-Ark 8 KW inverter and 80 KW of Tesla’s car batteries inside. It is a unique setup and as I said, Sol-Ark was great with guidance and support. > > Peter Giroux > American Solar > > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Maverick Brown > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 3:27 PM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience > > Doug > > Thanks for the quick reply! The battery is actually a Tesla Model S sedan car battery. Each brick is 21.6V nominal. > > I tried to get support from Sol-Ark. > > The current plan is to use two radians. I have XW and Radians in my own my system. I just wanted know about the Sol-Ark. I love that inverter on paper and was looking to get one. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > > >> On Jan 31, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Doug Phillips > wrote: >> >> I’ve never tried that low, what battery? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >>> On Jan 31, 2020, at 9:29 AM, Maverick Brown > wrote: >>> >>> Doug >>> >>> Well, can I edit bulk, absorb and float to 50.5 and LBCO <=40V? >>> >>> Asking for a friend... >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Maverick >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Jan 31, 2020, at 12:15 PM, Doug Phillips > wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> Hey Wrenches, >>>> >>>> I have installed ~15 Sol-Ark 8k’s over the last year and have a few 12k’s lined up for the coming month. I have basically fallen head over heels for the product and the company. The machine itself works beautifully and is quick and easy to install (no external cc’s !). I also believe that the thoughtful clean sheet design of the machine has allowed it to surpass the functionality/efficiency of most of its competitors. In addition, Sol-Ark is constantly improving their firmware, and increasing their feature list via over the air updates. Safe to say I haven’t installed a Radian since my first Sol-Ark. >>>> >>>> I’d be happy to answer any specific questions you may have. >>>> >>>> Aloha, >>>> >>>> Doug Phillips, President >>>> Solar Plus, Inc www.solarpluskauai.com >>>> PO Box 771 >>>> Hanalei, HI 96714 >>>> 808-639-7646 cell >>>> 808-826-6361 office >>>> >>>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Lou Russo >>>> Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 7:34 AM >>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience >>>> >>>> Aloha Wrenches, >>>> >>>> I am starting to explore Sol-Ark's product line. The last mention of them on the >>>> list was April of 2019 with nobody having actual tested or installed one. >>>> >>>> Anybody have experience with them ? >>>> >>>> Aloha, >>>> >>>> Lou Russo >>>> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >>>> 808 345 6762 >>>> Spree Solar Systems LLC >>>> CT-34322 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Sat Feb 1 07:11:24 2020 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2020 07:11:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience In-Reply-To: References: <430F1B82-B74A-42EB-90B3-559FCE3DAC44@mavericksolar.com> <005f01d5d883$d423f7a0$7c6be6e0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <000001d5d8f8$b93d50b0$2bb7f210$@mindspring.com> Maverick Good morning, you are welcome to call me. 678 525 0468. peter From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Maverick Brown Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 5:55 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience Peter, I would be interested in knowing about your experience and any relevant settings. I contacted Sol-Ark and they said No-way. Maybe they were not aware or just don’t want the support hassle. It would be good to know for the next customer. For the current customer, I already order two Radians and 32 6P74S batteries. Maverick On Jan 31, 2020, at 4:14 PM, > > wrote: Maverick We have a customer with a Sol-Ark and Tesla car batteries. The system, once the fine tuning was finished has performed great. Sol -Ark was very helpful even though this was not a traditional out of the box application. They were great with us as well as the customer ( who kept playing with the programing ). The system resides in a trailer with 3.5 KW of solar on top, 1 Sol-Ark 8 KW inverter and 80 KW of Tesla’s car batteries inside. It is a unique setup and as I said, Sol-Ark was great with guidance and support. Peter Giroux American Solar From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Maverick Brown Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 3:27 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience Doug Thanks for the quick reply! The battery is actually a Tesla Model S sedan car battery. Each brick is 21.6V nominal. I tried to get support from Sol-Ark. The current plan is to use two radians. I have XW and Radians in my own my system. I just wanted know about the Sol-Ark. I love that inverter on paper and was looking to get one. Thank you, Maverick On Jan 31, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Doug Phillips < doug at solarpluskauai.com> wrote: I’ve never tried that low, what battery? Sent from my iPhone On Jan 31, 2020, at 9:29 AM, Maverick Brown < maverick at mavericksolar.com> wrote: Doug Well, can I edit bulk, absorb and float to 50.5 and LBCO <=40V? Asking for a friend... Thank you, Maverick On Jan 31, 2020, at 12:15 PM, Doug Phillips < doug at solarpluskauai.com> wrote:  Hey Wrenches, I have installed ~15 Sol-Ark 8k’s over the last year and have a few 12k’s lined up for the coming month. I have basically fallen head over heels for the product and the company. The machine itself works beautifully and is quick and easy to install (no external cc’s !). I also believe that the thoughtful clean sheet design of the machine has allowed it to surpass the functionality/efficiency of most of its competitors. In addition, Sol-Ark is constantly improving their firmware, and increasing their feature list via over the air updates. Safe to say I haven’t installed a Radian since my first Sol-Ark. I’d be happy to answer any specific questions you may have. Aloha, Doug Phillips, President Solar Plus, Inc www.solarpluskauai.com PO Box 771 Hanalei, HI 96714 808-639-7646 cell 808-826-6361 office From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Lou Russo Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 7:34 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience Aloha Wrenches, I am starting to explore Sol-Ark's product line. The last mention of them on the list was April of 2019 with nobody having actual tested or installed one. Anybody have experience with them ? Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Feb 1 16:43:26 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 13:43:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Gateway Control In-Reply-To: <6b07c560aae6dcda881d248f0279ccb5@127.0.0.1> References: <473744DF-088A-491C-943A-08DD716DEFD4@gmail.com> <6b07c560aae6dcda881d248f0279ccb5@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <94d9e17c542c102aff13cc5d2afda582@127.0.0.1> Wrenches, I was told by Schneider that they would like engineering to take a peak at a system where Insight2 is giving the password error for the Gateway. " If you have any customers facing this issue who are willing to share their gateway password with us, we can troubleshoot what is going on. When we last looked at this, it looked like their password was incorrect. (it is hard to tell because the gateway stores a hash of the password and not the password itself, so it is not possible to find out the password that the gateway has). Once connectivity is established to the cloud, we have not seen an instance in the lab where we cannot communicate with the gateway through the cloud." So drop me an email and I can try and hook you up. Thx. --Dave DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 13:45:59 -0800, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: I really have not had any problems with support (monday thru friday they answer the phone) or the equipment. Sorry to not be very helpful. You can email me and I can attempt to help. FYI I just changed the SCP button beep in the country of Ghana from Mariposa. Client wondered how that got turned on The gateway system and Insight2 work as advertised. I have heard similar problems over the years with Optics and I know you guys have also. Some folks should not have the need for this monitoring and if they do, they need to devote the time before they get clients involved. My humble opinion. FRIDAY ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [4] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 12:16:09 -0700, Ray wrote: We inherited a Schneider system recently and have been attempting to add remote monitoring etc. I have an electrical engineer on my team with significant com experience. Our opinion to date: 1) The Schneider system is the most complicated, kludgy solution I've ever encountered with separate boxes and cables running amok everywhere: certainly an inelegant solution. 2) The Manuals do not fully cover all of the setup, so Wrench comments chastising others for contacting Schneider with basic questions covered in the manual are way off base. 3) Schneider tech support is some of the worst right now: we need field support when we are on site, instead, we get a call back a week later. Only SMA's lack of support for the Sunny Islands is worse. (they don't call back at all....) 4) When we do finally get a call back a week later, they can't answer any of our questions, and can't seem to forward us to anyone who can. My conclusion: The entire Schneider SCADA package is way over priced, thrown together, not fully integrated, over promised, released before it was ready, and comes with virtually no SCADA support for installation or trouble shooting after. At least I feel better knowing its not just us. Compare this to something like the Bluetooth enabled SOC monitoring that comes FREE with LiFe blue batteries, and it tells me Schneider needs to just hit _Delete _and start over. In the 21st century, we have smart phones with apps that connect automatically, equipment that is actually plug and play, and software that is so intuitive you don't need the manual, much less call anyone. As I've said going back to the Outback Mate days, offgrid solar SCADA is at least a decade behind the rest of the world. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/31/20 10:18 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hi Mac and Luke and Wrenches, I'm having the exact same issue. It hasn't been a pressing problem right away as I've been having access to the site but I was hoping my last visit where I added Users and Admins and Installers would fix it due to permissions levels. But in Admins and Installers I still get the same thing: "DEVICE NOT READY OR INVALID CREDENTIALS, PLEASE TRY AGAIN" And like Mac I can log in and make changes when I'm on site using the direct interface but not through InSight2.0. I've also checked numerous times that I'm using the correct Gateway credentials. Sandra? Thanks, Jeff Luke Christy wrote on 1/31/20 6:44 AM: Hi Mac, I have a very similar issue to yours with a customer's remote cabin and the need to be able to monitor and change settings remotely. I installed my first Gateway with a brand new Conext 4048 and an MPPT-150 controller and I'm having the exact same trouble and am getting the same error message. Before installation, I actually thought I had verified that I could make settings changes through the internet on a bench test using the admin password, etc, however, once the system was installed I haven't been able to get it to work despite verifying my passwords and making a long trip for a return visit to the site. Perhaps someone else has some insight? I'm glad to know that this may be a larger issue. -Luke Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional On Jan 31, 2020, at 07:10, Mac Lewis [5] wrote: Hi Wrenches, I am working with Schneider on this but I haven't heard back in a few days so I thought I'd put it out to the list to see if anyone else has worked through this. We recently installed our first Conext Gateway in hopes of getting better monitoring and control through Insight 2 portal. We installed it on an XW 5548, AGS, Batt Mon, HV-MPPT charge controller ~ 4 years old. For some reason, we cannot make changes to the system via the portal. The monitoring is much better but the control isn't functional. When I make a parameter change, it asks for the username and password but then gives this error every time: I verified that I am entering the Gateway admin username and the new password that I assigned. I can log into it locally, directly through the Access Pt functionality. Any suggestions? Schneider isn't responding and its a snow cat ride to get into the site. Thanks -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [13] List rules font-size: inherit; padding: 0px; color: #505050;">413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [18] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [20] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [21] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [22] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [5] mailto:maclewis1 at gmail.com [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [9] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [14] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [16] https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/ [17] http://www.villagepowerdesign.com [18] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [19] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [21] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [22] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gary at arp-solar.com Sat Feb 1 16:45:09 2020 From: gary at arp-solar.com (gary easton) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2020 16:45:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New member In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No one knows? On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 10:25 AM gary easton wrote: > I am sorry for this off topic question but how do I suggest a new member? > > -- > Sunny Regards, > > Gary Easton > *Appalachian Renewable Power **Celebrating over 10 years of bringing > power to the people!* > 10131 Haga Ridge Stewart, Ohio 45778 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV #031508-29 > > T: 740-277-8498 > www.arp-solar.com > > > “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then > you win.” > ~Gandhi > > > > -- Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Feb 1 16:47:06 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 13:47:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New member In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3fee8cadce6acf82104c75f611ff5e79@127.0.0.1> Just tell them to apply with Michael. Email the forum master. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 1 Feb 2020 16:45:09 -0500, gary easton wrote: No one knows? On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 10:25 AM gary easton wrote: I am sorry for this off topic question but how do I suggest a new member? -- Sunny Regards, Gary Easton APPALACHIAN RENEWABLE POWER _Celebrating over 10 years of bringing power to the people!_ 10131 Haga Ridge Stewart, Ohio 45778 NABCEP Certified Solar PV #031508-29 T: 740-277-8498 www.arp-solar.com [4] "First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win." ~Gandhi -- Sent from Gmail Mobile Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:gary at arp-solar.com [4] http://www.arp-solar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Sat Feb 1 17:27:50 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2020 17:27:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New member In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <86B3F013-16D3-4D85-8804-89D76ACF34F9@swnl.net> Contact Mother Michale Welch, RE Wrench list moderator, info bottom to the page. > On Feb 1, 2020, at 4:45 PM, gary easton wrote: > > No one knows? > > On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 10:25 AM gary easton > wrote: > I am sorry for this off topic question but how do I suggest a new member? > > -- > Sunny Regards, > > Gary Easton > Appalachian Renewable Power Celebrating over 10 years of bringing power to the people! > 10131 Haga Ridge Stewart, Ohio 45778 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV #031508-29 > T: 740-277-8498 <> > www.arp-solar.com > > > “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.” > ~Gandhi > > > > -- > Sent from Gmail Mobile > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Sat Feb 1 17:31:53 2020 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 14:31:53 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off topic items (was Re: New member) In-Reply-To: <3fee8cadce6acf82104c75f611ff5e79@127.0.0.1> References: <3fee8cadce6acf82104c75f611ff5e79@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <1580596595308.2f0cb479183c74b7@re-wrenches.org> Hi gang. Just a reminder that admin-related posts are considered off-topic on this listserver, as are responses to off-topic posts. That said, if anyone knows of experienced, pro installers who would like to join the list, please have the prospective members email me directly (not the wrench listserver address), and I will take it from there. Note that since Home Power stopped publishing, I don't spend as much time in front of the computer as I used to, but I'm usually able to deal with list needs multiple times a day. See below for more info on the kinds of things that are considered off-topic for this list. - - - - - Hi there. Just a reminder to not post off topic items. 1. Don't post jokes, thanks, apologies, agreements, news items, chit-chat, events, politics, marketing, virus info, leads, items for sale, or anything else that is off-topic. 2. Don't respond on-list to others' off topic posts. 3. Don't post items that are available for sale, either from you or from others. 3a. From time to time people post items that they need but are having problems locating (like an older model PV module to replace a broken one), but these requests should be responded to off-list. And these requests should state within them, something like "if you have one, please contact me off list." 4. If you have a message that is intended for individuals who are on the list, like "thanks" or "yes, I have one of those things you are looking for," don't send it to the whole list -- just send it to the individuals. 5. Do not post administrative inquiries, but rather send them to me off-list. 6. And finally, a reminder to never post job leads of any kind on the list. Thank-you. [The RE-Wrenches listserver and other associated lists are managed by Michael Welch, through Redwood Alliance, a nonprofit energy-related environmental organization.] From gary at arp-solar.com Sat Feb 1 17:52:55 2020 From: gary at arp-solar.com (gary easton) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2020 17:52:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New member In-Reply-To: <3fee8cadce6acf82104c75f611ff5e79@127.0.0.1> References: <3fee8cadce6acf82104c75f611ff5e79@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Thank you all. On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 4:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Just tell them to apply with Michael. Email the forum master. > > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sat, 1 Feb 2020 16:45:09 -0500, gary easton wrote: > > No one knows? > > On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 10:25 AM gary easton wrote: > >> I am sorry for this off topic question but how do I suggest a new member? >> >> -- >> Sunny Regards, >> >> Gary Easton >> *Appalachian Renewable Power **Celebrating over 10 years of bringing >> power to the people!* >> 10131 Haga Ridge >> >> Stewart, Ohio 45778 >> >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV #031508-29 >> >> T: 740-277-8498 >> www.arp-solar.com >> >> >> "First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. >> Then you win." >> ~Gandhi >> >> >> >> -- > Sent from Gmail Mobile > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Sat Feb 1 20:42:15 2020 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (MiJo Nels) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 01:42:15 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience In-Reply-To: <000001d5d8f8$b93d50b0$2bb7f210$@mindspring.com> References: <430F1B82-B74A-42EB-90B3-559FCE3DAC44@mavericksolar.com> <005f01d5d883$d423f7a0$7c6be6e0$@mindspring.com> , <000001d5d8f8$b93d50b0$2bb7f210$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: I'm up to almost half a dozen SolArk's now. . I am falling deeper and deeper in love with each one. . The resilience they have (both with surge capacity and the topology they treat the batteries with) I am quite impressed with.. ALWAYS stellar support, ALWAYS friendly and helpful for solutions.. you are making a good choice with their gear. I intend to ONLY use SolArk on Off-Grid/coupled systems and honestly if I get my way we will march more and more of them into a GridTied/Battery BackUp scenario (8kW model now Rule21 complaint in CA with 12kW to come shortly).. I stand behind this product!! Joe Nelson Project Manager C-46/C-10 Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation CSL# 868816 www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com 530-273-4422 (Office) 530-217-8385 (Cell)      ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of pgiroux at mindspring.com Sent: Saturday, February 1, 2020 4:11:24 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience Maverick Good morning, you are welcome to call me. 678 525 0468. peter From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Maverick Brown Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 5:55 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience Peter, I would be interested in knowing about your experience and any relevant settings. I contacted Sol-Ark and they said No-way. Maybe they were not aware or just don’t want the support hassle. It would be good to know for the next customer. For the current customer, I already order two Radians and 32 6P74S batteries. Maverick On Jan 31, 2020, at 4:14 PM, > > wrote: Maverick We have a customer with a Sol-Ark and Tesla car batteries. The system, once the fine tuning was finished has performed great. Sol -Ark was very helpful even though this was not a traditional out of the box application. They were great with us as well as the customer ( who kept playing with the programing ). The system resides in a trailer with 3.5 KW of solar on top, 1 Sol-Ark 8 KW inverter and 80 KW of Tesla’s car batteries inside. It is a unique setup and as I said, Sol-Ark was great with guidance and support. Peter Giroux American Solar From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Maverick Brown Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 3:27 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience Doug Thanks for the quick reply! The battery is actually a Tesla Model S sedan car battery. Each brick is 21.6V nominal. I tried to get support from Sol-Ark. The current plan is to use two radians. I have XW and Radians in my own my system. I just wanted know about the Sol-Ark. I love that inverter on paper and was looking to get one. Thank you, Maverick On Jan 31, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Doug Phillips > wrote: I’ve never tried that low, what battery? Sent from my iPhone On Jan 31, 2020, at 9:29 AM, Maverick Brown > wrote: Doug Well, can I edit bulk, absorb and float to 50.5 and LBCO <=40V? Asking for a friend... Thank you, Maverick On Jan 31, 2020, at 12:15 PM, Doug Phillips > wrote:  Hey Wrenches, I have installed ~15 Sol-Ark 8k’s over the last year and have a few 12k’s lined up for the coming month. I have basically fallen head over heels for the product and the company. The machine itself works beautifully and is quick and easy to install (no external cc’s !). I also believe that the thoughtful clean sheet design of the machine has allowed it to surpass the functionality/efficiency of most of its competitors. In addition, Sol-Ark is constantly improving their firmware, and increasing their feature list via over the air updates. Safe to say I haven’t installed a Radian since my first Sol-Ark. I’d be happy to answer any specific questions you may have. Aloha, Doug Phillips, President Solar Plus, Inc www.solarpluskauai.com PO Box 771 Hanalei, HI 96714 808-639-7646 cell 808-826-6361 office From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Lou Russo Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 7:34 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience Aloha Wrenches, I am starting to explore Sol-Ark's product line. The last mention of them on the list was April of 2019 with nobody having actual tested or installed one. Anybody have experience with them ? Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Sun Feb 2 13:45:49 2020 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 13:45:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience In-Reply-To: References: <430F1B82-B74A-42EB-90B3-559FCE3DAC44@mavericksolar.com> <005f01d5d883$d423f7a0$7c6be6e0$@mindspring.com> , <000001d5d8f8$b93d50b0$2bb7f210$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <46bfa5da6b46d8b6ba0a9bbdab92b67f.squirrel@mail.otelco.net> I'm with you Joe, We have a half dozen installed in the Bahamas, off grid and multiple hybrid uses, and they are my go-to from now on. The 12 kW I particularly like and they are coming out with a more "universal" communications dongle for the slightly confusing current online monitoring choices. A great inverter from a great company! Daryl > I'm up to almost half a dozen SolArk's now. . I am falling deeper and > deeper in love with each one. . The resilience they have (both with surge > capacity and the topology they treat the batteries with) I am quite > impressed with.. ALWAYS stellar support, ALWAYS friendly and helpful for > solutions.. you are making a good choice with their gear. I intend to ONLY > use SolArk on Off-Grid/coupled systems and honestly if I get my way we > will march more and more of them into a GridTied/Battery BackUp scenario > (8kW model now Rule21 complaint in CA with 12kW to come shortly).. I > stand behind this product!! > > Joe Nelson > > Project Manager C-46/C-10 > Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation > > CSL# 868816 > www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com > 530-273-4422 (Office) > > 530-217-8385 (Cell) > >  > >     > > ________________________________ > From: RE-wrenches on behalf of > pgiroux at mindspring.com > Sent: Saturday, February 1, 2020 4:11:24 AM > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience > > Maverick > > Good morning, you are welcome to call me. 678 525 0468. > > peter > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of > Maverick Brown > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 5:55 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience > > Peter, > > I would be interested in knowing about your experience and any relevant > settings. I contacted Sol-Ark and they said No-way. Maybe they were not > aware or just don’t want the support hassle. It would be good to know > for the next customer. For the current customer, I already order two > Radians and 32 6P74S batteries. > > Maverick > > > On Jan 31, 2020, at 4:14 PM, > > > > wrote: > > Maverick > > We have a customer with a Sol-Ark and Tesla car batteries. The system, > once the fine tuning was finished has performed great. Sol -Ark was very > helpful even though this was not a traditional out of the box > application. They were great with us as well as the customer ( who kept > playing with the programing ). The system resides in a trailer with 3.5 > KW of solar on top, 1 Sol-Ark 8 KW inverter and 80 KW of Tesla’s car > batteries inside. It is a unique setup and as I said, Sol-Ark was great > with guidance and support. > > Peter Giroux > American Solar > > From: RE-wrenches > > > On Behalf Of Maverick Brown > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 3:27 PM > To: RE-wrenches > > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience > > Doug > > Thanks for the quick reply! The battery is actually a Tesla Model S sedan > car battery. Each brick is 21.6V nominal. > > I tried to get support from Sol-Ark. > > The current plan is to use two radians. I have XW and Radians in my own my > system. I just wanted know about the Sol-Ark. I love that inverter on > paper and was looking to get one. > Thank you, > > Maverick > > > > > On Jan 31, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Doug Phillips > > wrote: > I’ve never tried that low, what battery? > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Jan 31, 2020, at 9:29 AM, Maverick Brown > > wrote: > Doug > > Well, can I edit bulk, absorb and float to 50.5 and LBCO <=40V? > > Asking for a friend... > Thank you, > > Maverick > > > > > On Jan 31, 2020, at 12:15 PM, Doug Phillips > > wrote: >  > Hey Wrenches, > > I have installed ~15 Sol-Ark 8k’s over the last year and have a few > 12k’s lined up for the coming month. I have basically fallen head over > heels for the product and the company. The machine itself works > beautifully and is quick and easy to install (no external cc’s !). I > also believe that the thoughtful clean sheet design of the machine has > allowed it to surpass the functionality/efficiency of most of its > competitors. In addition, Sol-Ark is constantly improving their firmware, > and increasing their feature list via over the air updates. Safe to say I > haven’t installed a Radian since my first Sol-Ark. > > I’d be happy to answer any specific questions you may have. > > Aloha, > > Doug Phillips, President > Solar Plus, Inc www.solarpluskauai.com > PO Box 771 > Hanalei, HI 96714 > 808-639-7646 cell > 808-826-6361 office > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Lou Russo > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 7:34 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience > > Aloha Wrenches, > > I am starting to explore Sol-Ark's product line. The last mention of them > on the > list was April of 2019 with nobody having actual tested or installed one. > > Anybody have experience with them ? > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Sun Feb 2 13:54:03 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 13:54:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience In-Reply-To: <46bfa5da6b46d8b6ba0a9bbdab92b67f.squirrel@mail.otelco.net> References: <430F1B82-B74A-42EB-90B3-559FCE3DAC44@mavericksolar.com> <005f01d5d883$d423f7a0$7c6be6e0$@mindspring.com> <000001d5d8f8$b93d50b0$2bb7f210$@mindspring.com> <46bfa5da6b46d8b6ba0a9bbdab92b67f.squirrel@mail.otelco.net> Message-ID: How is rapid shutdown achieved with Sol-Ark? On Sun, Feb 2, 2020 at 1:45 PM wrote: > I'm with you Joe, > We have a half dozen installed in the Bahamas, off grid and multiple > hybrid uses, and they are my go-to from now on. The 12 kW I > particularly like and they are coming out with a more "universal" > communications dongle for the slightly confusing current online > monitoring choices. A great inverter from a great company! > > Daryl > > > > I'm up to almost half a dozen SolArk's now. . I am falling deeper and > > deeper in love with each one. . The resilience they have (both with surge > > capacity and the topology they treat the batteries with) I am quite > > impressed with.. ALWAYS stellar support, ALWAYS friendly and helpful for > > solutions.. you are making a good choice with their gear. I intend to > ONLY > > use SolArk on Off-Grid/coupled systems and honestly if I get my way we > > will march more and more of them into a GridTied/Battery BackUp scenario > > (8kW model now Rule21 complaint in CA with 12kW to come shortly).. I > > stand behind this product!! > > > > Joe Nelson > > > > Project Manager C-46/C-10 > > Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation > > > > CSL# 868816 > > www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com > > 530-273-4422 (Office) > > > > 530-217-8385 (Cell) > > > >  > > > >     > > > > ________________________________ > > From: RE-wrenches on behalf > of > > pgiroux at mindspring.com > > Sent: Saturday, February 1, 2020 4:11:24 AM > > To: 'RE-wrenches' > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience > > > > Maverick > > > > Good morning, you are welcome to call me. 678 525 0468. > > > > peter > > > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of > > Maverick Brown > > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 5:55 PM > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience > > > > Peter, > > > > I would be interested in knowing about your experience and any relevant > > settings. I contacted Sol-Ark and they said No-way. Maybe they were not > > aware or just don’t want the support hassle. It would be good to know > > for the next customer. For the current customer, I already order two > > Radians and 32 6P74S batteries. > > > > Maverick > > > > > > On Jan 31, 2020, at 4:14 PM, > > > > > > wrote: > > > > Maverick > > > > We have a customer with a Sol-Ark and Tesla car batteries. The system, > > once the fine tuning was finished has performed great. Sol -Ark was very > > helpful even though this was not a traditional out of the box > > application. They were great with us as well as the customer ( who kept > > playing with the programing ). The system resides in a trailer with 3.5 > > KW of solar on top, 1 Sol-Ark 8 KW inverter and 80 KW of Tesla’s car > > batteries inside. It is a unique setup and as I said, Sol-Ark was great > > with guidance and support. > > > > Peter Giroux > > American Solar > > > > From: RE-wrenches > > re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>> > > On Behalf Of Maverick Brown > > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 3:27 PM > > To: RE-wrenches > > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>> > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience > > > > Doug > > > > Thanks for the quick reply! The battery is actually a Tesla Model S sedan > > car battery. Each brick is 21.6V nominal. > > > > I tried to get support from Sol-Ark. > > > > The current plan is to use two radians. I have XW and Radians in my own > my > > system. I just wanted know about the Sol-Ark. I love that inverter on > > paper and was looking to get one. > > Thank you, > > > > Maverick > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 31, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Doug Phillips > > > wrote: > > I’ve never tried that low, what battery? > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > > On Jan 31, 2020, at 9:29 AM, Maverick Brown > > > wrote: > > Doug > > > > Well, can I edit bulk, absorb and float to 50.5 and LBCO <=40V? > > > > Asking for a friend... > > Thank you, > > > > Maverick > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 31, 2020, at 12:15 PM, Doug Phillips > > > wrote: > >  > > Hey Wrenches, > > > > I have installed ~15 Sol-Ark 8k’s over the last year and have a few > > 12k’s lined up for the coming month. I have basically fallen head over > > heels for the product and the company. The machine itself works > > beautifully and is quick and easy to install (no external cc’s !). I > > also believe that the thoughtful clean sheet design of the machine has > > allowed it to surpass the functionality/efficiency of most of its > > competitors. In addition, Sol-Ark is constantly improving their > firmware, > > and increasing their feature list via over the air updates. Safe to say > I > > haven’t installed a Radian since my first Sol-Ark. > > > > I’d be happy to answer any specific questions you may have. > > > > Aloha, > > > > Doug Phillips, President > > Solar Plus, Inc www.solarpluskauai.com > > PO Box 771 > > Hanalei, HI 96714 > > 808-639-7646 cell > > 808-826-6361 office > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > > Behalf Of Lou Russo > > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 7:34 AM > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience > > > > Aloha Wrenches, > > > > I am starting to explore Sol-Ark's product line. The last mention of them > > on the > > list was April of 2019 with nobody having actual tested or installed one. > > > > Anybody have experience with them ? > > > > Aloha, > > > > Lou Russo > > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > > 808 345 6762 > > Spree Solar Systems LLC > > CT-34322 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: > > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm< > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: > > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm< > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: > > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm< > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: > > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm< > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Sun Feb 2 14:02:21 2020 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 14:02:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience In-Reply-To: References: <430F1B82-B74A-42EB-90B3-559FCE3DAC44@mavericksolar.com> <005f01d5d883$d423f7a0$7c6be6e0$@mindspring.com> <000001d5d8f8$b93d50b0$2bb7f210$@mindspring.com> <46bfa5da6b46d8b6ba0a9bbdab92b67f.squirrel@mail.otelco.net> Message-ID: The easiest way is using TS4-A-F (TIGO) optimizers. > How is rapid shutdown achieved with Sol-Ark? > > On Sun, Feb 2, 2020 at 1:45 PM wrote: > >> I'm with you Joe, >> We have a half dozen installed in the Bahamas, off grid and multiple >> hybrid uses, and they are my go-to from now on. The 12 kW I >> particularly like and they are coming out with a more "universal" >> communications dongle for the slightly confusing current online >> monitoring choices. A great inverter from a great company! >> >> Daryl >> >> >> > I'm up to almost half a dozen SolArk's now. . I am falling deeper and >> > deeper in love with each one. . The resilience they have (both with >> surge >> > capacity and the topology they treat the batteries with) I am quite >> > impressed with.. ALWAYS stellar support, ALWAYS friendly and helpful >> for >> > solutions.. you are making a good choice with their gear. I intend to >> ONLY >> > use SolArk on Off-Grid/coupled systems and honestly if I get my way we >> > will march more and more of them into a GridTied/Battery BackUp >> scenario >> > (8kW model now Rule21 complaint in CA with 12kW to come shortly).. I >> > stand behind this product!! >> > >> > Joe Nelson >> > >> > Project Manager C-46/C-10 >> > Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation >> > >> > CSL# 868816 >> > www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com >> > 530-273-4422 (Office) >> > >> > 530-217-8385 (Cell) >> > >> >  >> > >> >     >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > From: RE-wrenches on >> behalf >> of >> > pgiroux at mindspring.com >> > Sent: Saturday, February 1, 2020 4:11:24 AM >> > To: 'RE-wrenches' >> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience >> > >> > Maverick >> > >> > Good morning, you are welcome to call me. 678 525 0468. >> > >> > peter >> > >> > From: RE-wrenches On >> Behalf >> Of >> > Maverick Brown >> > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 5:55 PM >> > To: RE-wrenches >> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience >> > >> > Peter, >> > >> > I would be interested in knowing about your experience and any >> relevant >> > settings. I contacted Sol-Ark and they said No-way. Maybe they were >> not >> > aware or just don’t want the support hassle. It would be good >> to know >> > for the next customer. For the current customer, I already order two >> > Radians and 32 6P74S batteries. >> > >> > Maverick >> > >> > >> > On Jan 31, 2020, at 4:14 PM, >> > > >> > > wrote: >> > >> > Maverick >> > >> > We have a customer with a Sol-Ark and Tesla car batteries. The >> system, >> > once the fine tuning was finished has performed great. Sol -Ark was >> very >> > helpful even though this was not a traditional out of the box >> > application. They were great with us as well as the customer ( who >> kept >> > playing with the programing ). The system resides in a trailer with >> 3.5 >> > KW of solar on top, 1 Sol-Ark 8 KW inverter and 80 KW of >> Tesla’s car >> > batteries inside. It is a unique setup and as I said, Sol-Ark was >> great >> > with guidance and support. >> > >> > Peter Giroux >> > American Solar >> > >> > From: RE-wrenches >> > > re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>> >> > On Behalf Of Maverick Brown >> > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 3:27 PM >> > To: RE-wrenches >> > > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>> >> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience >> > >> > Doug >> > >> > Thanks for the quick reply! The battery is actually a Tesla Model S >> sedan >> > car battery. Each brick is 21.6V nominal. >> > >> > I tried to get support from Sol-Ark. >> > >> > The current plan is to use two radians. I have XW and Radians in my >> own >> my >> > system. I just wanted know about the Sol-Ark. I love that inverter on >> > paper and was looking to get one. >> > Thank you, >> > >> > Maverick >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Jan 31, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Doug Phillips >> > > wrote: >> > I’ve never tried that low, what battery? >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> > >> > >> > On Jan 31, 2020, at 9:29 AM, Maverick Brown >> > > wrote: >> > Doug >> > >> > Well, can I edit bulk, absorb and float to 50.5 and LBCO <=40V? >> > >> > Asking for a friend... >> > Thank you, >> > >> > Maverick >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Jan 31, 2020, at 12:15 PM, Doug Phillips >> > > wrote: >> >  >> > Hey Wrenches, >> > >> > I have installed ~15 Sol-Ark 8k’s over the last year and have a >> few >> > 12k’s lined up for the coming month. I have basically fallen >> head over >> > heels for the product and the company. The machine itself works >> > beautifully and is quick and easy to install (no external cc’s >> !). I >> > also believe that the thoughtful clean sheet design of the machine has >> > allowed it to surpass the functionality/efficiency of most of its >> > competitors. In addition, Sol-Ark is constantly improving their >> firmware, >> > and increasing their feature list via over the air updates. Safe to >> say >> I >> > haven’t installed a Radian since my first Sol-Ark. >> > >> > I’d be happy to answer any specific questions you may have. >> > >> > Aloha, >> > >> > Doug Phillips, President >> > Solar Plus, Inc >> www.solarpluskauai.com >> > PO Box 771 >> > Hanalei, HI 96714 >> > 808-639-7646 cell >> > 808-826-6361 office >> > >> > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >> On >> > Behalf Of Lou Russo >> > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020 7:34 AM >> > To: RE-wrenches >> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real World Sol-Ark experience >> > >> > Aloha Wrenches, >> > >> > I am starting to explore Sol-Ark's product line. The last mention of >> them >> > on the >> > list was April of 2019 with nobody having actual tested or installed >> one. >> > >> > Anybody have experience with them ? >> > >> > Aloha, >> > >> > Lou Russo >> > lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> > 808 345 6762 >> > Spree Solar Systems LLC >> > CT-34322 >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: >> > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm< >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: >> > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm< >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: >> > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm< >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: >> > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm< >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Feb 3 12:36:58 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2020 09:36:58 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Gateway Control In-Reply-To: <719f3e58a8ff1ed8bb434442a4f4e3cf@127.0.0.1> References: <473744DF-088A-491C-943A-08DD716DEFD4@gmail.com> <6b07c560aae6dcda881d248f0279ccb5@127.0.0.1> <94d9e17c542c102aff13cc5d2afda582@127.0.0.1> <667C4886-620B-44AF-A2CF-BDCEB4E5D6A5@villagepowerdesign.com> <57c78617-ec1f-a1fb-1c46-0addd877f448@villagepowerdesign.com> <719f3e58a8ff1ed8bb434442a4f4e3cf@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <724037b3-426b-4f63-f95a-8d0a27af760a@villagepowerdesign.com> Hi Dave and Wrenches, So bringing this back to the thread after Dave and I brought it off-list (see below). My InSight2.0 access to remote changes now works (through the configurations page) though I'm not 100% sure what the fix was.  I had tried over a dozen times with the same credentials information prior to that and it did not work over the course of a month - giving me the 'DEVICE NOT READY, OR INVALID CREDENTIALS, PLEASE TRY AGAIN screen when I would try to change a parameter for any given device. The fix is either (only things I can think it could possibly be): 1.  Last week - when I was on-site and connected to the Gateway directly through the local network -  I added a USER and INSTALLER level access.  For simplicity I gave them the same password. Prior to that I had not gone into that screen and just had accepted the ADMIN level as the only level. OR 2.  I came home from that day to the thread that others were having the same problem (Mac Lewis) and Dave (per below) said he had talked to Schnieder and they couldn't reproduce the problem.  So he asked me to take screen shots and provide the credentials so they could test.  I was in the process of making up those screen shots when it started to work.  So my only thought here is that through some other ticket or tech than Dave is aware of - someone at Schneider changed something since they were hearing of the problem. If it's not the latter my theory is that particular Access password screen is set up to be for INSTALLER OR USER level and not ADMIN and my adding of those two - though it didn't work right away when I returned to remote testing as perhaps the InSight database took some time to register my change - adding those now let me in. Same is true for the iPhone App - it now let's us in and that one specifically asks for the USER Password and has no option for INSTALLER OR ADMIN. So Mac - try that and tell us if it works. To better test - unlike me - give those levels different passwords and see if  you can get in with one and not the others. Or Sandra - perhaps  you can shed some light - or liaison with your tech folks to prove or disprove my theory? Onward, Jeff Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 2/3/20 8:25 AM: > No Sir I did not send them anything yet as I was waiting for your reply. > > I will forward what you did and thanks. I am thinking somehow the > Admin level and your changes to user and installer might have done > something? Thx!  I would appreciate it if you would post out to the > list that it is working for you! > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 20:12:38 -0800, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > >> Hey Dave, >> >> So I went to those screens to take screen shots to show you what's >> been happening for over a month now (tried like a dozen or more >> times) and voila now it works! >> >> So I'm thinking that someone else beat me to it since you talked to >> them and they fixed it over the weekend?  I'm 100% positive I entered >> the same info I have been entering all along. >> >> My only other possible change is that last week during a site visit I >> enabled a USER level and INSTALLER level access in addition to the >> ADMIN.  I set them all to the same password so in case that password >> screen was looking for a different permission level it would work.  >> It didn't right when I returned to remote testing but perhaps it took >> some time for the database to catch up? >> >> So not sure which one of those two is responsible for the fix but in >> my mind it has to be one of the two - I hope that helps :) >> >> Let me know if you find out. >> >> Best, >> >> Jeff >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 2/2/20 8:44 AM: >> >>> Hi Jeff, >>> >>> You are getting a screen like I attached right? >>> >>> So your problem is you can't make changes on Insight2. When you >>> attempt a change, like to turn on/off the SCP button beep you get >>> the error wrong password. The password asked for is the Gateway PW. >>> The gateway PW works on gateway? >>> >>> If all of this is true I will need the PW of the gateway and the URN. >>> >>> Sorry to be overthinking this but this is not easy and there is no >>> room from creativity. >>> >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> On Sat, 1 Feb 2020 17:24:49 -0800, Jeff Clearwater >>> wrote: >>> >>> It's happening to me.  Would love to solve it. >>> Thanks >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Feb 1, 2020, at 1:43 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> I was told by Schneider that they would like engineering to >>> take a peak at a system where Insight2 is giving the >>> password error for the Gateway. >>> >>> " If you have any customers facing this issue who are >>> willing to share their gateway password with us, we can >>> troubleshoot what is going on.  When we last looked at this, >>> it looked like their password was incorrect.  (it is hard to >>> tell because the gateway stores a hash of the password and >>> not the password itself, so it is not possible to find out >>> the password that the gateway has).  Once connectivity is >>> established to the cloud, we have not seen an instance in >>> the lab where we cannot communicate with the gateway through >>> the cloud." >>> >>>  So drop me an email and I can try and hook you up.  Thx.  >>> --Dave >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >>> >>> *"we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail >>> offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 >>> 813 0060* >>> >>> On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 13:45:59 -0800, Dave Angelini Offgrid >>> Solar > >>> wrote: >>> >>> I really have not had any problems with support (monday >>> thru friday they answer the phone) or the equipment. >>> Sorry to not be very helpful. You can email me and I can >>> attempt to help. >>> >>> FYI  I just changed the SCP button beep in the country >>> of Ghana from Mariposa. Client wondered how that got >>> turned on Wink The gateway system and Insight2 work as >>> advertised. I have heard similar problems over the years >>> with Optics and I know you guys have also. >>> >>> Some folks should not have the need for this monitoring >>> and if they do, they need to devote the time before they >>> get clients involved. My humble opinion.  FRIDAY ! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines >>> don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail >>> offgridsolar at sti.net text >>> 209 813 0060* >>> >>> On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 12:16:09 -0700, Ray >>> > wrote: >>> >>> We inherited a Schneider system recently and have >>> been attempting to add remote monitoring etc.  I >>> have an electrical engineer on my team with >>> significant com experience.  Our opinion to date: >>> >>> 1) The Schneider system is the most complicated, >>> kludgy solution I've ever encountered with separate >>> boxes and cables running amok everywhere: certainly >>> an inelegant solution. >>> >>> 2) The Manuals do not fully cover all of the setup, >>> so Wrench comments chastising others for contacting >>> Schneider with basic questions covered in the manual >>> are way off base. >>> >>> 3) Schneider tech support is some of the worst right >>> now: we need field support when we are on site, >>> instead, we get a call back a week later.  Only >>> SMA's lack of support for the Sunny Islands is >>> worse. (they don't call back at all....) >>> >>> 4) When we do finally get a call back a week later, >>> they can't answer any of our questions, and can't >>> seem to forward us to anyone who can. >>> >>> My conclusion: >>> >>> The entire Schneider SCADA package is way over >>> priced, thrown together, not fully integrated, over >>> promised, released before it was ready, and comes >>> with virtually no SCADA support for installation or >>> trouble shooting after.  At least I feel better >>> knowing its not just us. >>> >>> Compare this to something like the Bluetooth enabled >>> SOC monitoring that comes FREE with LiFe blue >>> batteries, and it tells me Schneider needs to just >>> hit /Delete /and start over. >>> >>> In the 21st century, we have smart phones with apps >>> that connect automatically, equipment that is >>> actually plug and play, and software that is so >>> intuitive you don't need the manual, much less call >>> anyone. As I've said going back to the Outback Mate >>> days,  offgrid solar SCADA is at least a decade >>> behind the rest of the world. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> On 1/31/20 10:18 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >>> >>> Hi Mac and Luke and Wrenches, >>> >>> I'm having the exact same issue.  It hasn't been >>> a pressing problem right away as I've been >>> having access to the site but I was hoping my >>> last visit where I added Users and Admins and >>> Installers would fix it due to permissions >>> levels.  But in Admins and Installers I still >>> get the same thing: >>> >>> "DEVICE NOT READY OR INVALID CREDENTIALS, PLEASE >>> TRY AGAIN" >>> >>> And like Mac I can log in and make changes when >>> I'm on site using the direct interface but not >>> through InSight2.0. >>> >>> I've also checked numerous times that I'm using >>> the correct Gateway credentials. >>> >>> Sandra? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> Luke Christy wrote on 1/31/20 6:44 AM: >>> >>> Hi Mac, >>> I have a very similar issue to yours with a >>> customer's remote cabin and the need to be >>> able to monitor and change settings >>> remotely. I installed my first Gateway with >>> a brand new Conext 4048 and an MPPT-150 >>> controller and I'm having the exact same >>> trouble and am getting the same error >>> message. Before installation, I actually >>> thought I had verified that I could make >>> settings changes through the internet on a >>> bench test using the admin password, etc, >>> however, once the system was installed I >>> haven't been able to get it to work despite >>> verifying my passwords and making a long >>> trip for a return visit to the site. >>> Perhaps someone else has some insight? >>> I'm glad to know that this may be a larger >>> issue. >>> -Luke >>> Luke Christy >>> >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> >>> On Jan 31, 2020, at 07:10, Mac Lewis >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Wrenches, >>> I am working with Schneider on this but >>> I haven't heard back in a few days so I >>> thought I'd put it out to the list to >>> see if anyone else has worked through this. >>> We recently installed our first Conext >>> Gateway in hopes of getting better >>> monitoring and control through Insight 2 >>> portal.  We installed it on an XW 5548, >>> AGS, Batt Mon, HV-MPPT charge controller >>> ~ 4 years old. >>> For some reason, we cannot make changes >>> to the system via the portal.  The >>> monitoring is much better but the >>> control isn't functional.  When I make a >>> parameter change, it asks for the >>> username and password but then gives >>> this error every time: >>> I verified that I am entering the >>> Gateway admin username and the new >>> password that I assigned.  I can log >>> into it locally, directly through the >>> Access Pt functionality. >>> Any suggestions?  Schneider isn't >>> responding and its a snow cat ride to >>> get into the site. >>> Thanks >>> -- >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: >>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> Jeff Clearwater >>> Village Power Design >>> linkedin >>> >>> >>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>> >>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> linkedin >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> cell - 413-559-9763 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Feb 3 14:17:07 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2020 12:17:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Gateway Control In-Reply-To: <724037b3-426b-4f63-f95a-8d0a27af760a@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <473744DF-088A-491C-943A-08DD716DEFD4@gmail.com> <6b07c560aae6dcda881d248f0279ccb5@127.0.0.1> <94d9e17c542c102aff13cc5d2afda582@127.0.0.1> <667C4886-620B-44AF-A2CF-BDCEB4E5D6A5@villagepowerdesign.com> <57c78617-ec1f-a1fb-1c46-0addd877f448@villagepowerdesign.com> <719f3e58a8ff1ed8bb434442a4f4e3cf@127.0.0.1> <724037b3-426b-4f63-f95a-8d0a27af760a@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Hi Jeff, Thanks for the input. Quick question, when you are making the changes to site parameters via Insight2 and you are prompted for the Gateway password, which credentials are you using (User, Installer, or Admin)? I am trying to use the Admin credentials of the Gateway which I thought was correct. Thanks On Mon, Feb 3, 2020 at 10:37 AM Jeff Clearwater < jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: > Hi Dave and Wrenches, > > So bringing this back to the thread after Dave and I brought it off-list > (see below). > > My InSight2.0 access to remote changes now works (through the > configurations page) though I'm not 100% sure what the fix was. I had > tried over a dozen times with the same credentials information prior to > that and it did not work over the course of a month - giving me the 'DEVICE > NOT READY, OR INVALID CREDENTIALS, PLEASE TRY AGAIN screen when I would try > to change a parameter for any given device. > > The fix is either (only things I can think it could possibly be): > > 1. Last week - when I was on-site and connected to the Gateway directly > through the local network - I added a USER and INSTALLER level access. > For simplicity I gave them the same password. Prior to that I had not gone > into that screen and just had accepted the ADMIN level as the only level. > > OR > > 2. I came home from that day to the thread that others were having the > same problem (Mac Lewis) and Dave (per below) said he had talked to > Schnieder and they couldn't reproduce the problem. So he asked me to take > screen shots and provide the credentials so they could test. I was in the > process of making up those screen shots when it started to work. So my > only thought here is that through some other ticket or tech than Dave is > aware of - someone at Schneider changed something since they were hearing > of the problem. > > If it's not the latter my theory is that particular Access password screen > is set up to be for INSTALLER OR USER level and not ADMIN and my adding of > those two - though it didn't work right away when I returned to remote > testing as perhaps the InSight database took some time to register my > change - adding those now let me in. > > Same is true for the iPhone App - it now let's us in and that one > specifically asks for the USER Password and has no option for INSTALLER OR > ADMIN. > > So Mac - try that and tell us if it works. To better test - unlike me - > give those levels different passwords and see if you can get in with one > and not the others. > > Or Sandra - perhaps you can shed some light - or liaison with your tech > folks to prove or disprove my theory? > > Onward, > > Jeff > > > > > > > > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 2/3/20 8:25 AM: > > No Sir I did not send them anything yet as I was waiting for your reply. > > I will forward what you did and thanks. I am thinking somehow the Admin > level and your changes to user and installer might have done something? > Thx! I would appreciate it if you would post out to the list that it is > working for you! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 20:12:38 -0800, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > > Hey Dave, > > So I went to those screens to take screen shots to show you what's been > happening for over a month now (tried like a dozen or more times) and voila > now it works! > > So I'm thinking that someone else beat me to it since you talked to them > and they fixed it over the weekend? I'm 100% positive I entered the same > info I have been entering all along. > > My only other possible change is that last week during a site visit I > enabled a USER level and INSTALLER level access in addition to the ADMIN. > I set them all to the same password so in case that password screen was > looking for a different permission level it would work. It didn't right > when I returned to remote testing but perhaps it took some time for the > database to catch up? > > So not sure which one of those two is responsible for the fix but in my > mind it has to be one of the two - I hope that helps :) > > Let me know if you find out. > > Best, > > Jeff > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 2/2/20 8:44 AM: > > Hi Jeff, > > You are getting a screen like I attached right? > > So your problem is you can't make changes on Insight2. When you attempt a > change, like to turn on/off the SCP button beep you get the error wrong > password. The password asked for is the Gateway PW. The gateway PW works on > gateway? > > If all of this is true I will need the PW of the gateway and the URN. > > Sorry to be overthinking this but this is not easy and there is no room > from creativity. > > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sat, 1 Feb 2020 17:24:49 -0800, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > > It's happening to me. Would love to solve it. > > Thanks > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 1, 2020, at 1:43 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I was told by Schneider that they would like engineering to take a peak at > a system where Insight2 is giving the password error for the Gateway. > > " If you have any customers facing this issue who are willing to share > their gateway password with us, we can troubleshoot what is going on. When > we last looked at this, it looked like their password was incorrect. (it > is hard to tell because the gateway stores a hash of the password and not > the password itself, so it is not possible to find out the password that > the gateway has). Once connectivity is established to the cloud, we have > not seen an instance in the lab where we cannot communicate with the > gateway through the cloud." > > So drop me an email and I can try and hook you up. Thx. --Dave > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 13:45:59 -0800, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > > I really have not had any problems with support (monday thru friday they > answer the phone) or the equipment. Sorry to not be very helpful. You can > email me and I can attempt to help. > > FYI I just changed the SCP button beep in the country of Ghana from > Mariposa. Client wondered how that got turned on [image: Wink] The > gateway system and Insight2 work as advertised. I have heard similar > problems over the years with Optics and I know you guys have also. > > Some folks should not have the need for this monitoring and if they do, > they need to devote the time before they get clients involved. My humble > opinion. FRIDAY ! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 12:16:09 -0700, Ray wrote: > > We inherited a Schneider system recently and have been attempting to add > remote monitoring etc. I have an electrical engineer on my team with > significant com experience. Our opinion to date: > > 1) The Schneider system is the most complicated, kludgy solution I've ever > encountered with separate boxes and cables running amok everywhere: > certainly an inelegant solution. > > 2) The Manuals do not fully cover all of the setup, so Wrench comments > chastising others for contacting Schneider with basic questions covered in > the manual are way off base. > > 3) Schneider tech support is some of the worst right now: we need field > support when we are on site, instead, we get a call back a week later. > Only SMA's lack of support for the Sunny Islands is worse. (they don't call > back at all....) > > 4) When we do finally get a call back a week later, they can't answer any > of our questions, and can't seem to forward us to anyone who can. > > My conclusion: > > The entire Schneider SCADA package is way over priced, thrown together, > not fully integrated, over promised, released before it was ready, and > comes with virtually no SCADA support for installation or trouble shooting > after. At least I feel better knowing its not just us. > > Compare this to something like the Bluetooth enabled SOC monitoring that > comes FREE with LiFe blue batteries, and it tells me Schneider needs to > just hit *Delete *and start over. > > In the 21st century, we have smart phones with apps that connect > automatically, equipment that is actually plug and play, and software that > is so intuitive you don't need the manual, much less call anyone. As I've > said going back to the Outback Mate days, offgrid solar SCADA is at least > a decade behind the rest of the world. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 1/31/20 10:18 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > > Hi Mac and Luke and Wrenches, > > I'm having the exact same issue. It hasn't been a pressing problem right > away as I've been having access to the site but I was hoping my last visit > where I added Users and Admins and Installers would fix it due to > permissions levels. But in Admins and Installers I still get the same > thing: > > "DEVICE NOT READY OR INVALID CREDENTIALS, PLEASE TRY AGAIN" > > And like Mac I can log in and make changes when I'm on site using the > direct interface but not through InSight2.0. > > I've also checked numerous times that I'm using the correct Gateway > credentials. > > Sandra? > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > Luke Christy wrote on 1/31/20 6:44 AM: > > Hi Mac, > I have a very similar issue to yours with a customer's remote cabin and > the need to be able to monitor and change settings remotely. I installed my > first Gateway with a brand new Conext 4048 and an MPPT-150 controller and > I'm having the exact same trouble and am getting the same error message. > Before installation, I actually thought I had verified that I could make > settings changes through the internet on a bench test using the admin > password, etc, however, once the system was installed I haven't been able > to get it to work despite verifying my passwords and making a long trip for > a return visit to the site. > > Perhaps someone else has some insight? > I'm glad to know that this may be a larger issue. > > -Luke > > > Luke Christy > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > On Jan 31, 2020, at 07:10, Mac Lewis > wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > I am working with Schneider on this but I haven't heard back in a few days > so I thought I'd put it out to the list to see if anyone else has worked > through this. > > We recently installed our first Conext Gateway in hopes of getting better > monitoring and control through Insight 2 portal. We installed it on an XW > 5548, AGS, Batt Mon, HV-MPPT charge controller ~ 4 years old. > > For some reason, we cannot make changes to the system via the portal. The > monitoring is much better but the control isn't functional. When I make a > parameter change, it asks for the username and password but then gives this > error every time: > > > I verified that I am entering the Gateway admin username and the new > password that I assigned. I can log into it locally, directly through the > Access Pt functionality. > > Any suggestions? Schneider isn't responding and its a snow cat ride to > get into the site. > > Thanks > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Feb 3 15:43:09 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2020 12:43:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Gateway Control In-Reply-To: References: <473744DF-088A-491C-943A-08DD716DEFD4@gmail.com> <6b07c560aae6dcda881d248f0279ccb5@127.0.0.1> <94d9e17c542c102aff13cc5d2afda582@127.0.0.1> <667C4886-620B-44AF-A2CF-BDCEB4E5D6A5@villagepowerdesign.com> <57c78617-ec1f-a1fb-1c46-0addd877f448@villagepowerdesign.com> <719f3e58a8ff1ed8bb434442a4f4e3cf@127.0.0.1> <724037b3-426b-4f63-f95a-8d0a27af760a@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <7915b1da-12f8-224c-40a5-fa16c6cdf68c@villagepowerdesign.com> Hi Mac, I was using the ADMIN credentials but that didn't work.  I then set up the USER and INSTALLER credentials but unfortunately for diagnosing this I used the same password for all three. Try different passwords for the 3 and then you can see which one works and if my theory is even right.  The mobile app seems to need the USER credentials. And it's possible that Schneider made some other change in the meantime to the site and my theory isn't even correct. And it took a few days from the time I made those changes till I had access - so easily could have been something on Schneider's end.  Dave and Sandra are checking on that. Good luck! Jeff C. Mac Lewis wrote on 2/3/20 11:17 AM: > Hi Jeff, > > Thanks for the input. > > Quick question, when you are making the changes to site parameters via > Insight2 and you are prompted for the Gateway password, which > credentials are you using (User, Installer, or Admin)?  I am trying to > use the Admin credentials of the Gateway which I thought was correct. > > Thanks > > > On Mon, Feb 3, 2020 at 10:37 AM Jeff Clearwater > > > wrote: > > Hi Dave and Wrenches, > > So bringing this back to the thread after Dave and I brought it > off-list (see below). > > My InSight2.0 access to remote changes now works (through the > configurations page) though I'm not 100% sure what the fix was.  I > had tried over a dozen times with the same credentials information > prior to that and it did not work over the course of a month - > giving me the 'DEVICE NOT READY, OR INVALID CREDENTIALS, PLEASE > TRY AGAIN screen when I would try to change a parameter for any > given device. > > The fix is either (only things I can think it could possibly be): > > 1.  Last week - when I was on-site and connected to the Gateway > directly through the local network -  I added a USER and INSTALLER > level access.  For simplicity I gave them the same password. Prior > to that I had not gone into that screen and just had accepted the > ADMIN level as the only level. > > OR > > 2.  I came home from that day to the thread that others were > having the same problem (Mac Lewis) and Dave (per below) said he > had talked to Schnieder and they couldn't reproduce the problem.  > So he asked me to take screen shots and provide the credentials so > they could test.  I was in the process of making up those screen > shots when it started to work.  So my only thought here is that > through some other ticket or tech than Dave is aware of - someone > at Schneider changed something since they were hearing of the problem. > > If it's not the latter my theory is that particular Access > password screen is set up to be for INSTALLER OR USER level and > not ADMIN and my adding of those two - though it didn't work right > away when I returned to remote testing as perhaps the InSight > database took some time to register my change - adding those now > let me in. > > Same is true for the iPhone App - it now let's us in and that one > specifically asks for the USER Password and has no option for > INSTALLER OR ADMIN. > > So Mac - try that and tell us if it works. To better test - unlike > me - give those levels different passwords and see if  you can get > in with one and not the others. > > Or Sandra - perhaps  you can shed some light - or liaison with > your tech folks to prove or disprove my theory? > > Onward, > > Jeff > > > > > > > > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 2/3/20 8:25 AM: > >> No Sir I did not send them anything yet as I was waiting for your >> reply. >> >> I will forward what you did and thanks. I am thinking somehow the >> Admin level and your changes to user and installer might have >> done something? Thx!  I would appreciate it if you would post out >> to the list that it is working for you! >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 20:12:38 -0800, Jeff Clearwater >> >> wrote: >> >>> Hey Dave, >>> >>> So I went to those screens to take screen shots to show you >>> what's been happening for over a month now (tried like a dozen >>> or more times) and voila now it works! >>> >>> So I'm thinking that someone else beat me to it since you talked >>> to them and they fixed it over the weekend?  I'm 100% positive I >>> entered the same info I have been entering all along. >>> >>> My only other possible change is that last week during a site >>> visit I enabled a USER level and INSTALLER level access in >>> addition to the ADMIN.  I set them all to the same password so >>> in case that password screen was looking for a different >>> permission level it would work.  It didn't right when I returned >>> to remote testing but perhaps it took some time for the database >>> to catch up? >>> >>> So not sure which one of those two is responsible for the fix >>> but in my mind it has to be one of the two - I hope that helps :) >>> >>> Let me know if you find out. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 2/2/20 8:44 AM: >>> >>>> Hi Jeff, >>>> >>>> You are getting a screen like I attached right? >>>> >>>> So your problem is you can't make changes on Insight2. When you >>>> attempt a change, like to turn on/off the SCP button beep you >>>> get the error wrong password. The password asked for is the >>>> Gateway PW. The gateway PW works on gateway? >>>> >>>> If all of this is true I will need the PW of the gateway and >>>> the URN. >>>> >>>> Sorry to be overthinking this but this is not easy and there is >>>> no room from creativity. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail >>>> offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 >>>> 0060* >>>> >>>> On Sat, 1 Feb 2020 17:24:49 -0800, Jeff Clearwater >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> It's happening to me.  Would love to solve it. >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Feb 1, 2020, at 1:43 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Wrenches, >>>> >>>> I was told by Schneider that they would like >>>> engineering to take a peak at a system where Insight2 >>>> is giving the password error for the Gateway. >>>> >>>> " If you have any customers facing this issue who are >>>> willing to share their gateway password with us, we can >>>> troubleshoot what is going on.  When we last looked at >>>> this, it looked like their password was incorrect.  (it >>>> is hard to tell because the gateway stores a hash of >>>> the password and not the password itself, so it is not >>>> possible to find out the password that the gateway >>>> has).  Once connectivity is established to the cloud, >>>> we have not seen an instance in the lab where we cannot >>>> communicate with the gateway through the cloud." >>>> >>>>  So drop me an email and I can try and hook you up.  >>>> Thx.  --Dave >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >>>> >>>> *"we go where powerlines don't" >>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail >>>> offgridsolar at sti.net text >>>> 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 13:45:59 -0800, Dave Angelini >>>> Offgrid Solar >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> I really have not had any problems with support >>>> (monday thru friday they answer the phone) or the >>>> equipment. Sorry to not be very helpful. You can >>>> email me and I can attempt to help. >>>> >>>> FYI  I just changed the SCP button beep in the >>>> country of Ghana from Mariposa. Client wondered how >>>> that got turned on Wink The gateway system and >>>> Insight2 work as advertised. I have heard similar >>>> problems over the years with Optics and I know you >>>> guys have also. >>>> >>>> Some folks should not have the need for this >>>> monitoring and if they do, they need to devote the >>>> time before they get clients involved. My humble >>>> opinion.  FRIDAY ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines >>>> don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail >>>> offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 12:16:09 -0700, Ray >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> We inherited a Schneider system recently and >>>> have been attempting to add remote monitoring >>>> etc.  I have an electrical engineer on my team >>>> with significant com experience.  Our opinion >>>> to date: >>>> >>>> 1) The Schneider system is the most >>>> complicated, kludgy solution I've ever >>>> encountered with separate boxes and cables >>>> running amok everywhere: certainly an inelegant >>>> solution. >>>> >>>> 2) The Manuals do not fully cover all of the >>>> setup, so Wrench comments chastising others for >>>> contacting Schneider with basic questions >>>> covered in the manual are way off base. >>>> >>>> 3) Schneider tech support is some of the worst >>>> right now: we need field support when we are on >>>> site, instead, we get a call back a week >>>> later.  Only SMA's lack of support for the >>>> Sunny Islands is worse. (they don't call back >>>> at all....) >>>> >>>> 4) When we do finally get a call back a week >>>> later, they can't answer any of our questions, >>>> and can't seem to forward us to anyone who can. >>>> >>>> My conclusion: >>>> >>>> The entire Schneider SCADA package is way over >>>> priced, thrown together, not fully integrated, >>>> over promised, released before it was ready, >>>> and comes with virtually no SCADA support for >>>> installation or trouble shooting after.  At >>>> least I feel better knowing its not just us. >>>> >>>> Compare this to something like the Bluetooth >>>> enabled SOC monitoring that comes FREE with >>>> LiFe blue batteries, and it tells me Schneider >>>> needs to just hit /Delete /and start over. >>>> >>>> In the 21st century, we have smart phones with >>>> apps that connect automatically, equipment that >>>> is actually plug and play, and software that is >>>> so intuitive you don't need the manual, much >>>> less call anyone. As I've said going back to >>>> the Outback Mate days,  offgrid solar SCADA is >>>> at least a decade behind the rest of the world. >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>> >>>> On 1/31/20 10:18 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Mac and Luke and Wrenches, >>>> >>>> I'm having the exact same issue.  It hasn't >>>> been a pressing problem right away as I've >>>> been having access to the site but I was >>>> hoping my last visit where I added Users >>>> and Admins and Installers would fix it due >>>> to permissions levels.  But in Admins and >>>> Installers I still get the same thing: >>>> >>>> "DEVICE NOT READY OR INVALID CREDENTIALS, >>>> PLEASE TRY AGAIN" >>>> >>>> And like Mac I can log in and make changes >>>> when I'm on site using the direct interface >>>> but not through InSight2.0. >>>> >>>> I've also checked numerous times that I'm >>>> using the correct Gateway credentials. >>>> >>>> Sandra? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> Luke Christy wrote on 1/31/20 6:44 AM: >>>> >>>> Hi Mac, >>>> I have a very similar issue to yours >>>> with a customer's remote cabin and the >>>> need to be able to monitor and change >>>> settings remotely. I installed my first >>>> Gateway with a brand new Conext 4048 >>>> and an MPPT-150 controller and I'm >>>> having the exact same trouble and am >>>> getting the same error message. Before >>>> installation, I actually thought I had >>>> verified that I could make settings >>>> changes through the internet on a bench >>>> test using the admin password, etc, >>>> however, once the system was installed >>>> I haven't been able to get it to work >>>> despite verifying my passwords and >>>> making a long trip for a return visit >>>> to the site. >>>> Perhaps someone else has some insight? >>>> I'm glad to know that this may be a >>>> larger issue. >>>> -Luke >>>> Luke Christy >>>> >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation >>>> Professional >>>> >>>> On Jan 31, 2020, at 07:10, Mac >>>> Lewis >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Wrenches, >>>> I am working with Schneider on this >>>> but I haven't heard back in a few >>>> days so I thought I'd put it out to >>>> the list to see if anyone else has >>>> worked through this. >>>> We recently installed our first >>>> Conext Gateway in hopes of getting >>>> better monitoring and control >>>> through Insight 2 portal.  We >>>> installed it on an XW 5548, AGS, >>>> Batt Mon, HV-MPPT charge controller >>>> ~ 4 years old. >>>> For some reason, we cannot make >>>> changes to the system via the >>>> portal.  The monitoring is much >>>> better but the control isn't >>>> functional.  When I make a >>>> parameter change, it asks for the >>>> username and password but then >>>> gives this error every time: >>>> I verified that I am entering the >>>> Gateway admin username and the new >>>> password that I assigned.  I can >>>> log into it locally, >>>> directly through the Access Pt >>>> functionality. >>>> Any suggestions?  Schneider isn't >>>> responding and its a snow cat ride >>>> to get into the site. >>>> Thanks >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Mac Lewis >>>> >>>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: >>>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & >>>> settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>> Jeff Clearwater >>>> Village Power Design >>>> linkedin >>>> >>>> >>>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>>> >>>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> Jeff Clearwater >>> Village Power Design >>> linkedin >>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Tue Feb 4 16:52:40 2020 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2020 13:52:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Problems with Conext SW inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is of grid and, yes, the generator was running when I attempted to equalize. Schneider has no solution and it is just outside the 2 year warranty. I am going to try a couple of things when I go back: - setting the battery type to the default for FLA battery - it is set to Custom battery right now; - installing an older firmware version, to see if it is just a bug in the last update. However, based on the condition of the battery, I suspect the client has never been able to properly equalize; despite thinking they were doing everything properly. A real shame they even released this inverter to the market. This will likely be the third and last CSW that we end up replacing with a Magnum. If anyone else has had issues with the CSW, I'd like to know. We know other installers that believe this was a defective product from the beginning and would like to press Schneider to compensate clients and installers who have wasted far too much time and money trying to make it work as promised. Eric Smiley, P.Eng. Project Manager, North Island E: eric at vecoop.ca T: 1-888-386-0116 ext 702 (toll free) C: 250-703-6004 W: viridianenergy.ca RENEWABLE POWER NOW On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 at 11:56, Maverick Brown wrote: > Is this an off grid system? If so, the generator needs to be running to > execute EQ on the inverter. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > > On Jan 31, 2020, at 1:50 PM, Eric Smiley wrote: > >  > I recently discovered a critical problem with a client's SW inverter and I > want to know if others have encountered this. > It's an SW4024 with Flooded Lead Acid batteries. The system is configured > using the Custom Battery setting: Bulk and Absorption are set to 29.2 V. > Equalize is set to 32 V. > The problem is when Equalize is enabled, the system goes through Bulk and > Absorption just fine. However, when it switches to Equalize it doesn't > actually equalize. What I observed was the voltage actually decreased to > 0.5 V below the Absorption Voltage setting. > > Eric Smiley, P.Eng. > > Project Manager, North Island > > E: eric at vecoop.ca > > T: 1-888-386-0116 ext 702 (toll free) > > C: 250-703-6004 > > W: viridianenergy.ca > > > > RENEWABLE POWER NOW > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Feb 4 17:33:09 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2020 14:33:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Problems with Conext SW inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6d3e3bd26c158073cfcd3604f686008d@127.0.0.1> No problems that I know of and about 15 that work fine. I only use the XW for my clients but many out there. You said the voltage decreased below absorb when you tried, EQ will not start unless it has gone thru absorb to float. The work around to start EQ without going thru the cycle is to program a bulk, absorb, and float for the EQ voltage. Other ways also like shortening absorb time to one minute. You also know that you should never EQ a battery that is not charged without monitoring bat temp and being on site. EQ does have to be enabled in set-up BTW. It is not the firmware either unless it was a botched update. Do not forget to reprogram any changes you make! Good Luck! DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 4 Feb 2020 13:52:40 -0800, Eric Smiley wrote: It is of grid and, yes, the generator was running when I attempted to equalize. Schneider has no solution and it is just outside the 2 year warranty. I am going to try a couple of things when I go back: * setting the battery type to the default for FLA battery - it is set to Custom battery right now; * installing an older firmware version, to see if it is just a bug in the last update. However, based on the condition of the battery, I suspect the client has never been able to properly equalize; despite thinking they were doing everything properly. A real shame they even released this inverter to the market. This will likely be the third and last CSW that we end up replacing with a Magnum. If anyone else has had issues with the CSW, I'd like to know. We know other installers that believe this was a defective product from the beginning and would like to press Schneider to compensate clients and installers who have wasted far too much time and money trying to make it work as promised. Eric Smiley, P.Eng. Project Manager, North Island E: eric at vecoop.ca [3] T: 1-888-386-0116 ext 702 (toll free) C: 250-703-6004 W: viridianenergy.ca [4] RENEWABLE POWER NOW On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 at 11:56, Maverick Brown wrote: Is this an off grid system? If so, the generator needs to be running to execute EQ on the inverter. Thank you, Maverick On Jan 31, 2020, at 1:50 PM, Eric Smiley wrote: I recently discovered a critical problem with a client's SW inverter and I want to know if others have encountered this. It's an SW4024 with Flooded Lead Acid batteries. The system is configured using the Custom Battery setting: Bulk and Absorption are set to 29.2 V. Equalize is set to 32 V. The problem is when Equalize is enabled, the system goes through Bulk and Absorption just fine. However, when it switches to Equalize it doesn't actually equalize. What I observed was the voltage actually decreased to 0.5 V below the Absorption Voltage setting. Eric Smiley, P.Eng. Project Manager, North Island E: eric at vecoop.ca [8] T: 1-888-386-0116 ext 702 (toll free) C: 250-703-6004 W: viridianenergy.ca [9] RENEWABLE POWER NOW _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [13] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [15] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [18] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [19] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [20] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:eric at vecoop.ca [4] http://www.viridianenergy.ca [5] http://www.viridianenergy.ca/ [6] mailto:maverick at mavericksolar.com [7] mailto:eric at vecoop.ca [8] mailto:eric at vecoop.ca [9] http://www.viridianenergy.ca [10] http://www.viridianenergy.ca/ [11] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [14] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [16] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [19] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [20] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Wed Feb 5 12:35:12 2020 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 09:35:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] weird request Message-ID: <1580924112.456426699@webmail.finestplanet.com> i have a weird request... i have customer with a sealed GFX-2024 who has long complained about the internal fan's short (1.5 year) service life. i am thinking about changing this to a vented unit but would need to buy a different top half of the fx case... one with a hole for the fan's air intake and the exhaust air slots on the top and bottom between the case's fins. outback does not sell just the top half of the FX/FXR case. do any wrenches have old junk inverters they would consider parting out the top half of the case? if so, please contact me off list. thanks, todd Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Feb 5 12:41:31 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 09:41:31 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Contract permit packets Message-ID: Friends: I am barraged by offers for permit packet preparation services. I used to enjoy the process-- but to do it right takes me about 8 hours, even with templates. This has got me to considering hiring out for this. Can anyone share their experience with any of these services, good, bad or in between? Which service have you used? What do you typically pay? Have you used them for grid-tie, off-grid or GTBB? Thanks in advance. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bryan at pv-cables.com Wed Feb 5 13:37:47 2020 From: Bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 10:37:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Contract permit packets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <041b01d5dc53$5d8b3c60$18a1b520$@pv-cables.com> Jeff Spies recently started a business; https://www.planetplansets.com/ Bryan Norkunas bryan at pv-cables.com Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140 PV-Cables Inc. 1155 Redway Drive PO Box 2562 Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2020 9:42 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Contract permit packets Friends: I am barraged by offers for permit packet preparation services. I used to enjoy the process-- but to do it right takes me about 8 hours, even with templates. This has got me to considering hiring out for this. Can anyone share their experience with any of these services, good, bad or in between? Which service have you used? What do you typically pay? Have you used them for grid-tie, off-grid or GTBB? Thanks in advance. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 27561 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Feb 5 13:40:01 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 10:40:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Contract permit packets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0F50D767-4000-45F1-9F8D-86AF97DC5B84@gmail.com> Hi William, I’m not sure if this is what you are looking for or not. jay https://www.planetplansets.com > On Feb 5, 2020, at 9:41 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > I am barraged by offers for permit packet preparation services. I used to enjoy the process-- but to do it right takes me about 8 hours, even with templates. This has got me to considering hiring out for this. > > Can anyone share their experience with any of these services, good, bad or in between? > > Which service have you used? > > What do you typically pay? > > Have you used them for grid-tie, off-grid or GTBB? > > Thanks in advance. > > William > > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Feb 5 13:27:50 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 10:27:50 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] cheap MPPT controller In-Reply-To: <1580924112.456426699@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1580924112.456426699@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: HI All, I’m wondering if anyone has found a good inexpensive MPPT controller 40-80 amp 100-150v input I keep getting asked about them, and given that many are $100-200 vs $600-900 for the usual models, its a big difference. thanks jay peltz power From rich at solartechvt.com Wed Feb 5 17:20:23 2020 From: rich at solartechvt.com (rich at solartechvt.com) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 17:20:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kaco Inverters: Tech Support Contact? Message-ID: <00d101d5dc72$767fb100$637f1300$@solartechvt.com> Hello Wrenches Kaco New Energy seems to be the latest inverter manufacturer with tech support that is playing hard to get. I’m not sure they are still doing business in US. I did learn that they were sold to Siemens. All I can find is a contact with a German phone number. We completed an online support request but of course haven’t heard back. Does anybody have a contact number for KACO NEW ENERGY? Thanks Rich -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce4power at gmail.com Wed Feb 5 19:37:30 2020 From: bruce4power at gmail.com (Bruce Geddes) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 13:37:30 +1300 Subject: [RE-wrenches] weird request In-Reply-To: <1580924112.456426699@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1580924112.456426699@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <001401d5dc85$9f673580$de35a080$@gmail.com> Hi Todd, From my recollection changing the case might help but the logic will still hold it to 2kVA unless you change the control board as well. The only reason I can think of for short fan life would be high temperatures requiring long and frequent fan run times. Maybe someone has a display case unit you could get the vented top from? Bruce Geddes PowerOn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of toddcory at finestplanet.com Sent: Thursday, 6 February 2020 6:35 a.m. To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] weird request i have a weird request... i have customer with a sealed GFX-2024 who has long complained about the internal fan's short (1.5 year) service life. i am thinking about changing this to a vented unit but would need to buy a different top half of the fx case... one with a hole for the fan's air intake and the exhaust air slots on the top and bottom between the case's fins. outback does not sell just the top half of the FX/FXR case. do any wrenches have old junk inverters they would consider parting out the top half of the case? if so, please contact me off list. thanks, todd Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From garrison.rie at gmail.com Wed Feb 5 23:34:47 2020 From: garrison.rie at gmail.com (Garrison) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 22:34:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Contract permit packets In-Reply-To: <0F50D767-4000-45F1-9F8D-86AF97DC5B84@gmail.com> References: <0F50D767-4000-45F1-9F8D-86AF97DC5B84@gmail.com> Message-ID: <83B0D96C-209D-4493-BC6D-01D8C68ABCE1@gmail.com> I will also vouch for Jeff and team at Planet Plan Sets. I started using them for overflow but they are becoming a primary resource for grid tie, battery, and commercial plan sets. Highly recommend. Garrison Riegel Rethink Electric > On Feb 5, 2020, at 1:44 PM, jay wrote: > > Hi William, > > I’m not sure if this is what you are looking for or not. > > jay > > https://www.planetplansets.com > >> On Feb 5, 2020, at 9:41 AM, William Miller wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> I am barraged by offers for permit packet preparation services. I used to enjoy the process-- but to do it right takes me about 8 hours, even with templates. This has got me to considering hiring out for this. >> >> Can anyone share their experience with any of these services, good, bad or in between? >> >> Which service have you used? >> >> What do you typically pay? >> >> Have you used them for grid-tie, off-grid or GTBB? >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> William >> >> >> Miller Solar >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Feb 5 23:42:39 2020 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 21:42:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Contract permit packets In-Reply-To: <83B0D96C-209D-4493-BC6D-01D8C68ABCE1@gmail.com> References: <0F50D767-4000-45F1-9F8D-86AF97DC5B84@gmail.com> <83B0D96C-209D-4493-BC6D-01D8C68ABCE1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <495d2ba1-0b9b-ce32-f250-303ffae60ce4@sindelarsolar.com> Jeff at Planet Plansets served me well too, with honesty and integrity and a willingness to work with my situation rather than fit me into a box. My only job needing a plan set was a $50K+ off grid system, which is far less common than GT, and I was well served. Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* On 2/5/2020 9:34 PM, Garrison wrote: > I will also vouch for Jeff and team at Planet Plan Sets. I started > using them for overflow but they are becoming a primary resource for > grid tie, battery, and commercial plan sets. Highly recommend. > > Garrison Riegel > Rethink Electric > >> On Feb 5, 2020, at 1:44 PM, jay wrote: >> >> Hi William, >> >> I’m not sure if this is what you are looking for or not. >> >> jay >> >> https://www.planetplansets.com >> >>> On Feb 5, 2020, at 9:41 AM, William Miller >>> wrote: >>> >>> Friends: >>> >>> I am barraged by offers for permit packet preparation services.  I >>> used to enjoy the process-- but to do it right takes me about 8 >>> hours, even with templates. This has got me to considering hiring >>> out for this. >>> >>> Can anyone share their experience with any of these services, good, >>> bad or in between? >>> >>> Which service have you used? >>> >>> What do you typically pay? >>> >>> Have you used them for grid-tie, off-grid or GTBB? >>> >>> Thanks in advance. >>> >>> William >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> 805-438-5600 >>> www.millersolar.com >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Feb 5 23:42:49 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 18:42:49 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] cheap MPPT controller In-Reply-To: References: <1580924112.456426699@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Have you looked at the Midnite products Jery On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 9:44 AM jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’m wondering if anyone has found a good inexpensive MPPT controller > > 40-80 amp > 100-150v input > > > I keep getting asked about them, and given that many are $100-200 vs > $600-900 for the usual models, its a big difference. > > thanks > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Feb 5 23:51:18 2020 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 21:51:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] cheap MPPT controller In-Reply-To: References: <1580924112.456426699@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Jerry's right - check out the Midnite Kid. 150V, 30A but can be paralleled. Allan On 2/5/2020 9:42 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Have you looked at the Midnite products > Jery > > On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 9:44 AM jay > wrote: > > HI All, > > I’m wondering if anyone has found a good inexpensive MPPT controller > > 40-80 amp > 100-150v input > > > I keep getting asked about them, and given that many are $100-200 > vs $600-900 for the usual models, its a big difference. > > thanks > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Wed Feb 5 23:58:51 2020 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 21:58:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] cheap MPPT controller In-Reply-To: References: <1580924112.456426699@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay; I get that question all the time also. Using 2 Midnite Kids puts you in the same price range as a Classic. If you need UL listed, both Victron and Bluesky have one at the bottom of your capacity range and somewhat in your price range, 50A 100Voc. Non UL, Renogy has one that looks solid. Steca, Phocos and Samlex are all too small on the amp side for you, but are good inexpensive products with support. Once you need 150Voc and more than 50A, everyone jumps up into that $600+ range. Of course there's Amazon and Ebay for non-listed, don't expect accurate ratings, reliability, warranty you can actually use, or any tech support. Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP PV Associate NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 4:04 PM jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’m wondering if anyone has found a good inexpensive MPPT controller > > 40-80 amp > 100-150v input > > > I keep getting asked about them, and given that many are $100-200 vs > $600-900 for the usual models, its a big difference. > > thanks > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Thu Feb 6 02:30:37 2020 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 23:30:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] weird request In-Reply-To: <001401d5dc85$9f673580$de35a080$@gmail.com> References: <1580924112.456426699@webmail.finestplanet.com> <001401d5dc85$9f673580$de35a080$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1580974237.3612363@webmail.finestplanet.com> hi bruce, william miller has one he is going to send me. the most this unit ever sells is 1300 watts so the 2 kW limit isn't a problem, but because it is sealed the heat seems to kill off the internal fan in about 18 months... and it is a pain to replace. i thought outback would sell me one but the old days when they would accommodate a strange request are long gone. thanks for the email and reminder about the control card's limits. todd On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 4:37pm, "Bruce Geddes" said: Hi Todd, From my recollection changing the case might help but the logic will still hold it to 2kVA unless you change the control board as well. The only reason I can think of for short fan life would be high temperatures requiring long and frequent fan run times. Maybe someone has a display case unit you could get the vented top from? Bruce Geddes PowerOn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of toddcory at finestplanet.com Sent: Thursday, 6 February 2020 6:35 a.m. To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] weird request i have a weird request... i have customer with a sealed GFX-2024 who has long complained about the internal fan's short (1.5 year) service life. i am thinking about changing this to a vented unit but would need to buy a different top half of the fx case... one with a hole for the fan's air intake and the exhaust air slots on the top and bottom between the case's fins. outback does not sell just the top half of the FX/FXR case. do any wrenches have old junk inverters they would consider parting out the top half of the case? if so, please contact me off list. thanks, todd Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Feb 8 20:02:57 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 17:02:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] largest 240v GT inverter Message-ID: HI All, I’m wondering what the largest GT battery less inverter (and what people recommend) for 240v 60hz is out there. I don’t need MLPE, as project would be ground mount, its large residential, potentially 60KW. SE has their 11.4KW, but I’ve heard lots of bad things about them recently. Fronius has a 10KW? Thanks in advance jay Peltz power From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Sat Feb 8 22:30:30 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 22:30:30 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] largest 240v GT inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jay, CPS has a 60 kW -1000v string inverter that might be a good fit for your project. https://www.chintpowersystems.com/commercial-60kw.shtml Best, Chris On Sat, Feb 8, 2020 at 8:54 PM jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’m wondering what the largest GT battery less inverter (and what people > recommend) for 240v 60hz is out there. > > I don’t need MLPE, as project would be ground mount, its large > residential, potentially 60KW. > > SE has their 11.4KW, but I’ve heard lots of bad things about them > recently. > Fronius has a 10KW? > > Thanks in advance > > > jay > > Peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Sat Feb 8 22:42:43 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 22:42:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] largest 240v GT inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay, Sorry, I missed the 120/240v part. That CPS product is 3 phase. Fronius has the Primo 15kW in split phase. Have had good luck with them. On Sat, Feb 8, 2020 at 10:30 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote: > Hi Jay, > > CPS has a 60 kW -1000v string inverter that might be a good fit for your > project. > > https://www.chintpowersystems.com/commercial-60kw.shtml > > > Best, > > Chris > > On Sat, Feb 8, 2020 at 8:54 PM jay wrote: > >> HI All, >> >> I’m wondering what the largest GT battery less inverter (and what people >> recommend) for 240v 60hz is out there. >> >> I don’t need MLPE, as project would be ground mount, its large >> residential, potentially 60KW. >> >> SE has their 11.4KW, but I’ve heard lots of bad things about them >> recently. >> Fronius has a 10KW? >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> >> jay >> >> Peltz power >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Feb 10 02:22:09 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 23:22:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] largest 240v GT inverter In-Reply-To: <37461aa8-97f8-5e36-667e-ae92769bba84@villagelab.net> References: <37461aa8-97f8-5e36-667e-ae92769bba84@villagelab.net> Message-ID: Hey Jay, Why not just use 8 SMA SB 7.7's = 61.6 KW rated, 32 Amps 240 each. Then use a dedicated 320 Amp Rated (Typical nominal bus of a 400 A panel) Supply Side fed Breaker panel as you'll have 256 x 1.25 Amps of Solar bus = 320 - right at the limit but you are good to go! Jeff Chris Sparadeo wrote on 2/8/20 7:42 PM: > Jay, > > Sorry, I missed the 120/240v part. That CPS product is 3 phase. > Fronius has the Primo 15kW in split phase. Have had good luck with them. > > On Sat, Feb 8, 2020 at 10:30 PM Chris Sparadeo > > wrote: > > Hi Jay, > > CPS has a 60 kW -1000v string inverter that might be a good fit > for your project. > > https://www.chintpowersystems.com/commercial-60kw.shtml > > > Best, > > Chris > > On Sat, Feb 8, 2020 at 8:54 PM jay > wrote: > > HI All, > > I’m wondering what the largest GT battery less inverter  (and > what people recommend) for 240v 60hz is out there. > > I don’t need MLPE, as project would be ground mount, its large > residential, potentially 60KW. > > SE has their 11.4KW, but I’ve heard lots of bad things about > them recently. > Fronius has a 10KW? > > Thanks in advance > > > jay > > Peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chadwaits at netzerosolar.net Mon Feb 10 08:38:50 2020 From: chadwaits at netzerosolar.net (Chad Waits) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 06:38:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] largest 240v GT inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Biggest I found was Fronius 15kW. Chad Waits President 520-270-4873 On Sat, Feb 8, 2020 at 6:48 PM jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’m wondering what the largest GT battery less inverter (and what people > recommend) for 240v 60hz is out there. > > I don’t need MLPE, as project would be ground mount, its large > residential, potentially 60KW. > > SE has their 11.4KW, but I’ve heard lots of bad things about them > recently. > Fronius has a 10KW? > > Thanks in advance > > > jay > > Peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Mon Feb 10 08:53:47 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 08:53:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] largest 240v GT inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If this site requires a new service, another option would be to have the utility install 3-phase transformers and use higher capacity inverters. Now we're back to the CPS 60 kW... On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 8:39 AM Chad Waits wrote: > Biggest I found was Fronius 15kW. > > Chad Waits > President > 520-270-4873 > > > > On Sat, Feb 8, 2020 at 6:48 PM jay wrote: > >> HI All, >> >> I’m wondering what the largest GT battery less inverter (and what people >> recommend) for 240v 60hz is out there. >> >> I don’t need MLPE, as project would be ground mount, its large >> residential, potentially 60KW. >> >> SE has their 11.4KW, but I’ve heard lots of bad things about them >> recently. >> Fronius has a 10KW? >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> >> jay >> >> Peltz power >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Feb 10 10:19:55 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:19:55 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] largest 240v GT inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7888DD70-2E2C-430F-A39C-4D91D0264630@gmail.com> Here are a few answers to ( thanks) the comments. 1. its already has a 400 amp 240v service, I don’t see that changing, loads are not going up, they just want to add solar. 2. I would rather do 4 Primo 15’s at 1000v than, 8 SMA 7.7 at 600v, unless someone can convince me otherwise. This project is still just in the talking stages, and is months out before anything even would begin to go forward with design. I’m just trying to get ahead of the curve so I can have as many design options as possible. Jay > On Feb 10, 2020, at 5:53 AM, Chris Sparadeo wrote: > > If this site requires a new service, another option would be to have the utility install 3-phase transformers and use higher capacity inverters. Now we're back to the CPS 60 kW... > > On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 8:39 AM Chad Waits > wrote: > Biggest I found was Fronius 15kW. > > Chad Waits > President > 520-270-4873 > > > > On Sat, Feb 8, 2020 at 6:48 PM jay > wrote: > HI All, > > I’m wondering what the largest GT battery less inverter (and what people recommend) for 240v 60hz is out there. > > I don’t need MLPE, as project would be ground mount, its large residential, potentially 60KW. > > SE has their 11.4KW, but I’ve heard lots of bad things about them recently. > Fronius has a 10KW? > > Thanks in advance > > > jay > > Peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Feb 10 11:43:04 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 08:43:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] largest 240v GT inverter In-Reply-To: <7888DD70-2E2C-430F-A39C-4D91D0264630@gmail.com> References: <7888DD70-2E2C-430F-A39C-4D91D0264630@gmail.com> Message-ID: Definitely far easier with less strings and BOS for 1000 vdc. I have been begging for a 1000 vdc charge controller for offgrid! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:19:55 -0800, jay wrote: Here are a few answers to ( thanks) the comments. 1. its already has a 400 amp 240v service, I don't see that changing, loads are not going up, they just want to add solar. 2. I would rather do 4 Primo 15's at 1000v than, 8 SMA 7.7 at 600v, unless someone can convince me otherwise. This project is still just in the talking stages, and is months out before anything even would begin to go forward with design. I'm just trying to get ahead of the curve so I can have as many design options as possible. Jay On Feb 10, 2020, at 5:53 AM, Chris Sparadeo wrote: If this site requires a new service, another option would be to have the utility install 3-phase transformers and use higher capacity inverters. Now we're back to the CPS 60 kW... On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 8:39 AM Chad Waits wrote: Biggest I found was Fronius 15kW. Chad Waits President 520-270-4873 HI All, I'm wondering what the largest GT battery less inverter (and what people recommend) for 240v 60hz is out there. I don't need MLPE, as project would be ground mount, its large residential, potentially 60KW. SE has their 11.4KW, but I've heard lots of bad things about them recently. Fronius has a 10KW? Thanks in advance jay Peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [13] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [15] -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:sparadeo.chris at gmail.com [4] mailto:chadwaits at netzerosolar.net [5] mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [9] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ [11] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [14] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ [16] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Feb 10 13:23:06 2020 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 10:23:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 240 commercial single phase In-Reply-To: <7888DD70-2E2C-430F-A39C-4D91D0264630@gmail.com> References: <7888DD70-2E2C-430F-A39C-4D91D0264630@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Folks,             I'm coming into a least a couple small load 200 Amp/240 Vac single phase commercial jobs that need a Meter/main panel change-out that I can backfeed ~96 amps of solar onto.  Been using a Sq. D 'Solar Ready' panel for residential jobs but can't find equivalent for this type of /commercial/ power.  I'm in PG&E territory. Suggestions appreciated. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gary at arp-solar.com Mon Feb 10 15:51:02 2020 From: gary at arp-solar.com (gary easton) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 15:51:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Direct solar options for stock tank de icing Message-ID: Hello Wrenches. I have a friend in need of a way to keep stock tanks free of ice during winter months. Has any one had any experience with direct solar options for this? -- Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Feb 10 17:25:00 2020 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 15:25:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Direct solar options for stock tank de icing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0b7003d5-8c82-9ffa-31c1-89a09944bd69@sindelarsolar.com> Gary, This application comes up on this list from time to time over the years. You may be able to review previous discussions by searching the Wrenches archives as well as responses you may receive. I know that Keeton Fisheries has been mentioned as a resource in the past. List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html Allan On 2/10/2020 1:51 PM, gary easton wrote: > Hello Wrenches. > I have a friend in need of a way to keep stock tanks free of ice > during winter months.  Has any one had any experience with direct > solar options for this? -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Mon Feb 10 17:31:58 2020 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 16:31:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Direct solar options for stock tank de icing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: about 30 years ago I fought this problem, Insulated the outside of the tank, 2" floating blue styrofoam, cattle learn to pushdown to drink. I used a solar thermal collector with I don't remember the rest, but today I would use a PV Panel. On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 3:30 PM gary easton wrote: > Hello Wrenches. > I have a friend in need of a way to keep stock tanks free of ice during > winter months. Has any one had any experience with direct solar options > for this? > -- > Sent from Gmail Mobile > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Feb 10 17:42:52 2020 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 15:42:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Passive geothermal stock watering Message-ID: <005d01d5e063$6e8a9e20$4b9fda60$@solarwork.com> I have looked into this with solar thermal/electric & did not get any takers after clients looking at the overall cost most folks opted for a LPG fired unit or hauling water & or moving the stock closer to the grid. There is a pretty cool unit that uses a geo thermal loop to 10’[?not sure & you need a back hoe to install this unit] to a pedestal with a ball & the stock learn to push the ball down to get to free water. Not sure of brand or cost but I had clients that installed in an open barn at 10,000’EL in CO, that swore by it. Pretty nifty, it does need to be braced well. I witnessed it in action for almost 20 years & did not hear of issues with it. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of gary easton Sent: Monday, February 10, 2020 1:51 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Direct solar options for stock tank de icing Hello Wrenches. I have a friend in need of a way to keep stock tanks free of ice during winter months. Has any one had any experience with direct solar options for this? -- Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Feb 10 18:55:16 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 15:55:16 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Direct solar options for stock tank de icing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Using an air bubbler works well. It will make a hole in the ice formed overnight Jay > On Feb 10, 2020, at 1:30 PM, gary easton wrote: > >  > Hello Wrenches. > I have a friend in need of a way to keep stock tanks free of ice during winter months. Has any one had any experience with direct solar options for this? > -- > Sent from Gmail Mobile > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From roy at four-winds-energy.com Mon Feb 10 19:50:46 2020 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 19:50:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Direct solar options for stock tank de icing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14562210-50ba-0099-b6cc-3484fef2e506@four-winds-energy.com> Gary, Try these folks. They're based in Wisconsin and make almost everything in house.....I'm sure they have something that can work for you. They know a lot about aeration and de-icing. US Solar Mounts https://www.ussolarmounts.us/ Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 2/10/2020 6:55 PM, Jay wrote: > Using an air bubbler works well. > It will make a hole in the ice formed overnight > > Jay > >> On Feb 10, 2020, at 1:30 PM, gary easton wrote: >> >>  >> Hello Wrenches. >> I have a friend in need of a way to keep stock tanks free of ice during winter months. Has any one had any experience with direct solar options for this? >> -- >> Sent from Gmail Mobile >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From benn at skyfireenergy.com Tue Feb 11 07:49:35 2020 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 05:49:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Direct solar options for stock tank de icing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9C44FAF8-A037-4FEE-8E32-BC5AA58CA433@skyfireenergy.com> Gary, Is there already power to the tanks or are you looking for off-grid solutions? If there is power then a simple tank de-icer has been working fine for me. I built an insulated box with a hole in the top for filling/drinking for a 30gal water trough, in hopes that it would use a bit less energy. I often come across this idea... typically after a cold snap and I see my electric bill (we have a few electric water heaters for animals)... I’m just not set up to put my water tank in a sunny spot right now. https://www.motherearthnews.com/diy/tools/solar-stock-tank-zmaz10onzraw Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 > On Feb 10, 2020, at 1:51 PM, gary easton wrote: > > Hello Wrenches. > I have a friend in need of a way to keep stock tanks free of ice during winter months. Has any one had any experience with direct solar options for this? > -- > Sent from Gmail Mobile > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 08:54:10 2020 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 08:54:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Direct solar options for stock tank de icing Message-ID: Daryl Thayer has the key to this: surface insulation. About 90% of heat loss from an open body of water is from evaporation. There are black plastic balls (about 5” dia) you can get to float on top in a layer. Blue foam works but deteriorates in the sun. I know we are all about electrical and mechanical solutions on this list, but whatever you do, don’t waste your money trying to heat an open surface water tank. Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC From Ken at commonwealthsolar.com Tue Feb 11 08:59:25 2020 From: Ken at commonwealthsolar.com (Ken Schaal) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 08:59:25 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Direct solar options for stock tank de icing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And remember that ' the heat from the earth below ' is your friend. On Tue, Feb 11, 2020, 8:54 AM Hilton Dier wrote: > Daryl Thayer has the key to this: surface insulation. About 90% of heat > loss from an open body of water is from evaporation. There are black > plastic balls (about 5” dia) you can get to float on top in a layer. Blue > foam works but deteriorates in the sun. I know we are all about electrical > and mechanical solutions on this list, but whatever you do, don’t waste > your money trying to heat an open surface water tank. > > Hilton Dier III > Renewable Energy Design > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wstahle at pacific.net Tue Feb 11 18:00:20 2020 From: wstahle at pacific.net (Wallace Stahle) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 15:00:20 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius IG4, State 417 error In-Reply-To: <7888DD70-2E2C-430F-A39C-4D91D0264630@gmail.com> References: <7888DD70-2E2C-430F-A39C-4D91D0264630@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7E969A03-2494-4C83-A6C4-14EC7C6874B8@pacific.net> Hi Folks, Is anyone familiar with the Fronius IG4, State 417 failure code and its’ likely repair cost before I start a case with Fronius, take it off the wall and ship it to them for analysis and a repair quote? It is not a warranty claim at all. The manual states that 417 means: "Two power supplies have the same print number”. and to contact Fronius tech for assistance. They tell me send it in. It is a hardware problem. I would guess that removal and repair cost applied to to a new SMA with SPS would be a better investment for the customer. Any experience on repair costs for that type of failure on that generation of Fronius? I appreciate any feedback on the problem. Many thanks Wallace Stahle Future Electric Energy Co PO Box 236 Willits, CA 95490 707-459-0474 Lic.#C10-762093 future at pacific.net From august at luminalt.com Tue Feb 11 18:10:13 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 15:10:13 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius IG4, State 417 error In-Reply-To: <7E969A03-2494-4C83-A6C4-14EC7C6874B8@pacific.net> References: <7888DD70-2E2C-430F-A39C-4D91D0264630@gmail.com> <7E969A03-2494-4C83-A6C4-14EC7C6874B8@pacific.net> Message-ID: Wallace, I can't attest to that particular error code. I can attest that many or most of the original Fronius IG inverters we installed ended up failing and have since been replaced. As a general rule, we advise on installing a new model inverter when old out-of-warranty units fail since the technology has really made vast improvements since the IG days 10+ years ago. Spending time troubleshooting old inverters, sending them out for repair, installing them again, and dealing with other potential problems just isn't worth it in our labor market. It's sort of akin to repairing VCR and DVD players. Best, August Luminalt On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 3:00 PM Wallace Stahle wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Is anyone familiar with the Fronius IG4, State 417 failure code and its’ > likely repair cost before I start a case with Fronius, take it off the wall > and ship it to them for analysis and a repair quote? It is not a warranty > claim at all. > The manual states that 417 means: "Two power supplies have the same print > number”. and to contact Fronius tech for assistance. They tell me send it > in. It is a hardware problem. > > I would guess that removal and repair cost applied to to a new SMA with > SPS would be a better investment for the customer. > > Any experience on repair costs for that type of failure on that generation > of Fronius? > > I appreciate any feedback on the problem. > Many thanks > > Wallace Stahle > Future Electric Energy Co > PO Box 236 > Willits, CA 95490 > 707-459-0474 > Lic.#C10-762093 > future at pacific.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Tue Feb 11 18:30:27 2020 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 18:30:27 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius IG4, State 417 error In-Reply-To: <7E969A03-2494-4C83-A6C4-14EC7C6874B8@pacific.net> References: <7888DD70-2E2C-430F-A39C-4D91D0264630@gmail.com> <7E969A03-2494-4C83-A6C4-14EC7C6874B8@pacific.net> Message-ID: <000001d5e133$3dfd2680$b9f77380$@mindspring.com> Wallace I had an IG10's power supply get wonky two years ago. It would never get past the first stage. Couple trips to the customers house and Fronius tech support on the phone ( they were great by the way ) and they shipped me a new one. The tough part was swapping it out, a bit heavy. They have always been great when it comes to customer support. FYI, a new Primo is far more efficient and will have greater production #'s than the older IG's. Work horses both. Peter Giroux ASAE -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Wallace Stahle Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2020 6:00 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius IG4, State 417 error Hi Folks, Is anyone familiar with the Fronius IG4, State 417 failure code and its’ likely repair cost before I start a case with Fronius, take it off the wall and ship it to them for analysis and a repair quote? It is not a warranty claim at all. The manual states that 417 means: "Two power supplies have the same print number”. and to contact Fronius tech for assistance. They tell me send it in. It is a hardware problem. I would guess that removal and repair cost applied to to a new SMA with SPS would be a better investment for the customer. Any experience on repair costs for that type of failure on that generation of Fronius? I appreciate any feedback on the problem. Many thanks Wallace Stahle Future Electric Energy Co PO Box 236 Willits, CA 95490 707-459-0474 Lic.#C10-762093 future at pacific.net _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From benn at skyfireenergy.com Tue Feb 11 23:07:17 2020 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 22:07:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Direct solar options for stock tank de icing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8B45EA55-68A9-4009-8117-91E589979107@skyfireenergy.com> I built this one (first photo) for our horses....sitting in the corner on the styrofoam is the plug in heater that floats in the tank. The cover (same thickness styrofoam) has a hole about the size of a basketball for the horses to drink. And the second photo was a suggestion I came across on social media... cutting the bottom out of a bucket and attaching it to the cover to minimize air contact on the surface of the water.... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 797804 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image2.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 179186 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 > On Feb 11, 2020, at 7:54 AM, Hilton Dier wrote: > > Daryl Thayer has the key to this: surface insulation. About 90% of heat loss from an open body of water is from evaporation. There are black plastic balls (about 5” dia) you can get to float on top in a layer. Blue foam works but deteriorates in the sun. I know we are all about electrical and mechanical solutions on this list, but whatever you do, don’t waste your money trying to heat an open surface water tank. > > Hilton Dier III > Renewable Energy Design > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From chris at solarwindworks.com Mon Feb 10 20:41:06 2020 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 17:41:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Direct solar options for stock tank de icing In-Reply-To: <14562210-50ba-0099-b6cc-3484fef2e506@four-winds-energy.com> References: <14562210-50ba-0099-b6cc-3484fef2e506@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: <01cd01d5e07c$54a9ac30$fdfd0490$@solarwindworks.com> One way to cure the freeze is with bringing the ground's heat to the tank. I saw this done by digging a hole under where you want to place the stock tank. Dig it deep enough to get well below the frozen ground's frost heave depth. Use a smaller diameter piece of culvert, 18" to 24" dia. would work good. Stand it upright in the hole so the top of it is level with finish grade. Put the stock tank on top of this vertical chimney of warm air rising from below, you're good to go! Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP PV Installation Professional Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Roy Butler Sent: Monday, February 10, 2020 4:51 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Direct solar options for stock tank de icing Gary, Try these folks. They're based in Wisconsin and make almost everything in house.....I'm sure they have something that can work for you. They know a lot about aeration and de-icing. US Solar Mounts https://www.ussolarmounts.us/ Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 2/10/2020 6:55 PM, Jay wrote: > Using an air bubbler works well. > It will make a hole in the ice formed overnight > > Jay > >> On Feb 10, 2020, at 1:30 PM, gary easton wrote: >> >>  >> Hello Wrenches. >> I have a friend in need of a way to keep stock tanks free of ice during winter months. Has any one had any experience with direct solar options for this? >> -- >> Sent from Gmail Mobile >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From william at millersolar.com Thu Feb 13 02:51:32 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 23:51:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] THD problem solved Message-ID: Friends: I was whining on this forum recently about an off-grid system that was tripping GFI and AFCI breakers and devices. The problem seemed to be related to high THD on the voltage waveform experienced when the generator was charging the batteries. We first discovered this THD problem when inexpensive AC voltmeters disagreed with True-RMS AC voltmeters. Subsequent testing with Power Quality Monitors indicated 28% THD of the voltage waveform. Well it turns out that when these three-stack Radian inverters were set for Generator AC input mode, the charger circuits generated a lot of THD (28%f in our case). However, when we selected Backup, Support or UPS mode the THD went down to 3.5%f. For those of you that have had various appliances that perform poorly with a given inverter, you might check to see if the failures coincide with generator run. It could be that it is the charging circuit that is the culprit and not the inverting circuit. Knowing this could be helpful. I hope this information may prevent one or more of you from tearing out hair. For a full report of our travails, see this link . William PS: It has only been a few days since we adjusted the settings, but so far no more tripping. WM Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Feb 13 02:59:40 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 23:59:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for Solar World SW285 or similar Message-ID: Friends: I am looking for 12 Solar World SW285, 60 cell or similar panels to expand this system. We are looking for these panels in white back sheet in silver frames to match the existing. We would be willing to pay any reasonable price for 12 of these. On an editorial note: The speed at which any given PV panel becomes obsolete and out-of-production is dizzying. We can hardly specify a model in a permit application and find them still available in three weeks when the permit gets approved. I wonder about the wisdom of the PV industry retooling so often. Lord help you if your client breaks a panel two weeks after the install-- they are not likely to find a replacement. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarmax at highspeedlink.net Thu Feb 13 12:26:25 2020 From: solarmax at highspeedlink.net (Watt Bradshaw) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 12:26:25 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Direct solar options for stock tank de icing In-Reply-To: <01cd01d5e07c$54a9ac30$fdfd0490$@solarwindworks.com> References: <14562210-50ba-0099-b6cc-3484fef2e506@four-winds-energy.com> <01cd01d5e07c$54a9ac30$fdfd0490$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: <003e01d5e292$b7bf5550$273dfff0$@highspeedlink.net> Ritchie makes a passive heated waterer that we have used here in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia with good results. It consists of a super insulated water vessel, with floating balls that block the water opening, the cows learn to push down the balls to let some water up. You can even let a little water into the balls to make them easier to push down at the beginning. The water supply comes up through the middle via an insulated heat sink that insulates to about 2' below grade. The "heat" contained in the water that is used is plenty enough to keep everything from freezing as long as the waterer is being used. ,If you stop then need to drain the vessel and shut off the water supply. Watt Bradshaw Blue Ridge Energy Company 540-830-1289 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Worcester Sent: Monday, February 10, 2020 8:41 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Direct solar options for stock tank de icing One way to cure the freeze is with bringing the ground's heat to the tank. I saw this done by digging a hole under where you want to place the stock tank. Dig it deep enough to get well below the frozen ground's frost heave depth. Use a smaller diameter piece of culvert, 18" to 24" dia. would work good. Stand it upright in the hole so the top of it is level with finish grade. Put the stock tank on top of this vertical chimney of warm air rising from below, you're good to go! Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP PV Installation Professional Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Roy Butler Sent: Monday, February 10, 2020 4:51 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Direct solar options for stock tank de icing Gary, Try these folks. They're based in Wisconsin and make almost everything in house.....I'm sure they have something that can work for you. They know a lot about aeration and de-icing. US Solar Mounts https://www.ussolarmounts.us/ Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 2/10/2020 6:55 PM, Jay wrote: > Using an air bubbler works well. > It will make a hole in the ice formed overnight > > Jay > >> On Feb 10, 2020, at 1:30 PM, gary easton wrote: >> >>  >> Hello Wrenches. >> I have a friend in need of a way to keep stock tanks free of ice during winter months. Has any one had any experience with direct solar options for this? >> -- >> Sent from Gmail Mobile >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Feb 13 13:07:53 2020 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 13:07:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Ground Mounted Multimode (Battery) Inverters Message-ID: I got involved in a long discussion on Rapid Shutdown compliance for battery multimode, grid interconnect inverters that have a ground mounted array.  At one point, ground mounted array was not supposed to be subject to Rapid Shutdown unless there were dc conductors on the building.  NEC 2017 seems to say it is if conductors are 3' in or on buildings.  The intent of Rapid Shutdown was supposed to protect fire fighters from exposure to high dc voltage when the array was on a roof. Every code cycle it morphs into something a little different.  Has anyone had to confront this situation, and was this type of project subject to Rapid Shutdown?  Thanks in advance for any clarity on this.  Chris From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Feb 13 14:55:22 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 11:55:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Ground Mounted Multimode (Battery) Inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Chris, A few times and my back-up with a schneider system is their rapid shutdown. In the end the inspector comes around and realizes there is little gain for an offgrid ground mounted array for fireman. You do have to educate them and if they are insistent on being a bonehead, install the RS for the inspection and then use the box for the next one or sell it. After almost 30 years offgrid the last thing I want is something that can fault out the solar or worse when I am away. Networks can be the enemy at times. Less is more offgrid in my opinion. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 13:07:53 -0500, Christopher Warfel wrote: > I got involved in a long discussion on Rapid Shutdown compliance for > battery multimode, grid interconnect inverters that have a ground > mounted array.  At one point, ground mounted array was not supposed to > be subject to Rapid Shutdown unless there were dc conductors on the > building.  NEC 2017 seems to say it is if conductors are 3' in or on > buildings.  The intent of Rapid Shutdown was supposed to protect fire > fighters from exposure to high dc voltage when the array was on a roof. > Every code cycle it morphs into something a little different.  Has > anyone had to confront this situation, and was this type of project > subject to Rapid Shutdown?  Thanks in advance for any clarity on this.  > Chris > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org From ray at solarray.com Thu Feb 13 15:16:23 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 13:16:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Ground Mounted Multimode (Battery) Inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9d3305f0-5a60-28ee-696b-e292126d8ba4@solarray.com> This has been discussed to death in previous Wrench strings. Just to cut to the chase: please review NEC 2017, Figure 690.1(b) Note:(2). /The PV system disconnect in these diagrams separates the PV system from all other systems.// / The inverter, charge controller, batteries etc are no longer part of article 690, and are not subject to its requirements.  Look at articles 705, 706, and 480 for guidance for those _/other systems/_. // /Ray Walters/ Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 2/13/20 12:55 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > Hi Chris, > > A few times and my back-up with a schneider system is their rapid > shutdown. In the end the inspector comes around and realizes there is > little gain for an offgrid ground mounted array for fireman. You do have to > educate them and if they are insistent on being a bonehead, install the RS > for the inspection and then use the box for the next one or sell it. > > After almost 30 years offgrid the last thing I want is something that can > fault out the solar or worse when I am away. Networks can be the enemy at > times. Less is more offgrid in my opinion. > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 13:07:53 -0500, Christopher Warfel > wrote: >> I got involved in a long discussion on Rapid Shutdown compliance for >> battery multimode, grid interconnect inverters that have a ground >> mounted array.  At one point, ground mounted array was not supposed to >> be subject to Rapid Shutdown unless there were dc conductors on the >> building.  NEC 2017 seems to say it is if conductors are 3' in or on >> buildings.  The intent of Rapid Shutdown was supposed to protect fire >> fighters from exposure to high dc voltage when the array was on a roof. >> Every code cycle it morphs into something a little different.  Has >> anyone had to confront this situation, and was this type of project >> subject to Rapid Shutdown?  Thanks in advance for any clarity on this. >> Chris >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Feb 13 15:56:38 2020 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:56:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Ground Mounted Multimode (Battery) Inverters In-Reply-To: <9d3305f0-5a60-28ee-696b-e292126d8ba4@solarray.com> References: <9d3305f0-5a60-28ee-696b-e292126d8ba4@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray, I spent a bit of time today with a person who inspects for several state renewable energy programs and to summarize, this person said the opposite of what you said, and finish saying "seems pretty clear cut".  We did review three sections of 690, and one from 705.  I pointed out that these are not controlled conductors as I interpret them but they should have been defined.   I did not see any earlier posts regarding this, so I apologize for the redundancy. On 2/13/2020 3:16 PM, Ray wrote: > > This has been discussed to death in previous Wrench strings. Just to > cut to the chase: > > please review NEC 2017, Figure 690.1(b) Note:(2). /The PV system > disconnect in these diagrams separates the PV system from all other > systems.// > / > > The inverter, charge controller, batteries etc are no longer part of > article 690, and are not subject to its requirements. Look at articles > 705, 706, and 480 for guidance for those _/other systems/_. > > /Ray Walters/ > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 2/13/20 12:55 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> Hi Chris, >> >> A few times and my back-up with a schneider system is their rapid >> shutdown. In the end the inspector comes around and realizes there is >> little gain for an offgrid ground mounted array for fireman. You do have to >> educate them and if they are insistent on being a bonehead, install the RS >> for the inspection and then use the box for the next one or sell it. >> >> After almost 30 years offgrid the last thing I want is something that can >> fault out the solar or worse when I am away. Networks can be the enemy at >> times. Less is more offgrid in my opinion. >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mailoffgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 13:07:53 -0500, Christopher Warfel >> wrote: >>> I got involved in a long discussion on Rapid Shutdown compliance for >>> battery multimode, grid interconnect inverters that have a ground >>> mounted array.  At one point, ground mounted array was not supposed to >>> be subject to Rapid Shutdown unless there were dc conductors on the >>> building.  NEC 2017 seems to say it is if conductors are 3' in or on >>> buildings.  The intent of Rapid Shutdown was supposed to protect fire >>> fighters from exposure to high dc voltage when the array was on a roof. >>> Every code cycle it morphs into something a little different.  Has >>> anyone had to confront this situation, and was this type of project >>> subject to Rapid Shutdown?  Thanks in advance for any clarity on this. >>> Chris >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Feb 13 16:42:34 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 14:42:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Ground Mounted Multimode (Battery) Inverters In-Reply-To: References: <9d3305f0-5a60-28ee-696b-e292126d8ba4@solarray.com> Message-ID: It all comes down to where you install the PV disconnect.  We put it on the wall before the conductors enter the building or at the array, therefore 690 doesn't apply.  Proper signage is required indicating multiple power sources and listing the locations of their disconnects. Also, this isn't just my opinion, many others on the list have said this, including folks involved in the code writing process, and the code says this.  The fact that your inspector didn't catch the note on the figure is to be expected, as it is not out in flashing neon lights.  It is however a clear statement of where 690 stops: at the PV disconnect. Unfortunately, this is not further clarified in 2020 from what I can tell, so we will all continue to suffer inspectors incorrectly expecting 690.12 on ground mounted systems.  I would politely ask your inspector to review that ruling with his higher ups.  We can't start setting precedents that are unreasonable and incorrect.  The array wiring is already required to be protected by either height, protective panels or fencing. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 2/13/20 1:56 PM, Christopher Warfel wrote: > > Ray, I spent a bit of time today with a person who inspects for > several state renewable energy programs and to summarize, this person > said the opposite of what you said, and finish saying "seems pretty > clear cut".  We did review three sections of 690, and one from 705.  I > pointed out that these are not controlled conductors as I interpret > them but they should have been defined.   I did not see any earlier > posts regarding this, so I apologize for the redundancy. > > On 2/13/2020 3:16 PM, Ray wrote: >> >> This has been discussed to death in previous Wrench strings. Just to >> cut to the chase: >> >> please review NEC 2017, Figure 690.1(b) Note:(2). /The PV system >> disconnect in these diagrams separates the PV system from all other >> systems.// >> / >> >> The inverter, charge controller, batteries etc are no longer part of >> article 690, and are not subject to its requirements. Look at >> articles 705, 706, and 480 for guidance for those _/other systems/_. >> >> /Ray Walters/ >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 2/13/20 12:55 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>> Hi Chris, >>> >>> A few times and my back-up with a schneider system is their rapid >>> shutdown. In the end the inspector comes around and realizes there is >>> little gain for an offgrid ground mounted array for fireman. You do have to >>> educate them and if they are insistent on being a bonehead, install the RS >>> for the inspection and then use the box for the next one or sell it. >>> >>> After almost 30 years offgrid the last thing I want is something that can >>> fault out the solar or worse when I am away. Networks can be the enemy at >>> times. Less is more offgrid in my opinion. >>> >>> >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mailoffgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060 >>> >>> On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 13:07:53 -0500, Christopher Warfel >>> wrote: >>>> I got involved in a long discussion on Rapid Shutdown compliance for >>>> battery multimode, grid interconnect inverters that have a ground >>>> mounted array.  At one point, ground mounted array was not supposed to >>>> be subject to Rapid Shutdown unless there were dc conductors on the >>>> building.  NEC 2017 seems to say it is if conductors are 3' in or on >>>> buildings.  The intent of Rapid Shutdown was supposed to protect fire >>>> fighters from exposure to high dc voltage when the array was on a roof. >>>> Every code cycle it morphs into something a little different.  Has >>>> anyone had to confront this situation, and was this type of project >>>> subject to Rapid Shutdown?  Thanks in advance for any clarity on this. >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Feb 13 16:57:32 2020 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 16:57:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Ground Mounted Multimode (Battery) Inverters In-Reply-To: References: <9d3305f0-5a60-28ee-696b-e292126d8ba4@solarray.com> Message-ID: This points out the problem of inconsistent interpretation due in part to conflicting or unclear language. I always like to ask how many basements have protection around the NM conductors running through and along the rafters. I know several people on CMPs are on this listserv.  I am hoping that they can add some clear language, and not leave it to a footnote for implementing this aspect of the NEC. On 2/13/2020 4:42 PM, Ray wrote: > > It all comes down to where you install the PV disconnect.  We put it > on the wall before the conductors enter the building or at the array, > therefore 690 doesn't apply.  Proper signage is required indicating > multiple power sources and listing the locations of their disconnects. > > Also, this isn't just my opinion, many others on the list have said > this, including folks involved in the code writing process, and the > code says this.  The fact that your inspector didn't catch the note on > the figure is to be expected, as it is not out in flashing neon > lights.  It is however a clear statement of where 690 stops: at the PV > disconnect. > > Unfortunately, this is not further clarified in 2020 from what I can > tell, so we will all continue to suffer inspectors incorrectly > expecting 690.12 on ground mounted systems.  I would politely ask your > inspector to review that ruling with his higher ups.  We can't start > setting precedents that are unreasonable and incorrect.  The array > wiring is already required to be protected by either height, > protective panels or fencing. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 2/13/20 1:56 PM, Christopher Warfel wrote: >> >> Ray, I spent a bit of time today with a person who inspects for >> several state renewable energy programs and to summarize, this person >> said the opposite of what you said, and finish saying "seems pretty >> clear cut".  We did review three sections of 690, and one from 705.  >> I pointed out that these are not controlled conductors as I interpret >> them but they should have been defined.   I did not see any earlier >> posts regarding this, so I apologize for the redundancy. >> >> On 2/13/2020 3:16 PM, Ray wrote: >>> >>> This has been discussed to death in previous Wrench strings.  Just >>> to cut to the chase: >>> >>> please review NEC 2017, Figure 690.1(b) Note:(2). /The PV system >>> disconnect in these diagrams separates the PV system from all other >>> systems.// >>> / >>> >>> The inverter, charge controller, batteries etc are no longer part of >>> article 690, and are not subject to its requirements.  Look at >>> articles 705, 706, and 480 for guidance for those _/other systems/_. >>> >>> /Ray Walters/ >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> On 2/13/20 12:55 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>>> Hi Chris, >>>> >>>> A few times and my back-up with a schneider system is their rapid >>>> shutdown. In the end the inspector comes around and realizes there is >>>> little gain for an offgrid ground mounted array for fireman. You do have to >>>> educate them and if they are insistent on being a bonehead, install the RS >>>> for the inspection and then use the box for the next one or sell it. >>>> >>>> After almost 30 years offgrid the last thing I want is something that can >>>> fault out the solar or worse when I am away. Networks can be the enemy at >>>> times. Less is more offgrid in my opinion. >>>> >>>> >>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>>> e-mailoffgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060 >>>> >>>> On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 13:07:53 -0500, Christopher Warfel >>>> wrote: >>>>> I got involved in a long discussion on Rapid Shutdown compliance for >>>>> battery multimode, grid interconnect inverters that have a ground >>>>> mounted array.  At one point, ground mounted array was not supposed to >>>>> be subject to Rapid Shutdown unless there were dc conductors on the >>>>> building.  NEC 2017 seems to say it is if conductors are 3' in or on >>>>> buildings.  The intent of Rapid Shutdown was supposed to protect fire >>>>> fighters from exposure to high dc voltage when the array was on a roof. >>>>> Every code cycle it morphs into something a little different.  Has >>>>> anyone had to confront this situation, and was this type of project >>>>> subject to Rapid Shutdown?  Thanks in advance for any clarity on this. >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Feb 13 17:07:52 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:07:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Ground Mounted Multimode (Battery) Inverters In-Reply-To: References: <9d3305f0-5a60-28ee-696b-e292126d8ba4@solarray.com> Message-ID: <7fb8d3b3-c9c7-c729-fcd4-fe1098b87f66@solarray.com> Here's a page I put in my plan sets to make its clear for the AHJ.  I have not had this challenged, and we have never implemented Rapid Shutdown on a ground mounted array. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 2/13/20 2:57 PM, Christopher Warfel wrote: > > This points out the problem of inconsistent interpretation due in part > to conflicting or unclear language. I always like to ask how many > basements have protection around the NM conductors running through and > along the rafters. I know several people on CMPs are on this > listserv.  I am hoping that they can add some clear language, and not > leave it to a footnote for implementing this aspect of the NEC. > > On 2/13/2020 4:42 PM, Ray wrote: >> >> It all comes down to where you install the PV disconnect.  We put it >> on the wall before the conductors enter the building or at the array, >> therefore 690 doesn't apply.  Proper signage is required indicating >> multiple power sources and listing the locations of their disconnects. >> >> Also, this isn't just my opinion, many others on the list have said >> this, including folks involved in the code writing process, and the >> code says this.  The fact that your inspector didn't catch the note >> on the figure is to be expected, as it is not out in flashing neon >> lights.  It is however a clear statement of where 690 stops: at the >> PV disconnect. >> >> Unfortunately, this is not further clarified in 2020 from what I can >> tell, so we will all continue to suffer inspectors incorrectly >> expecting 690.12 on ground mounted systems.  I would politely ask >> your inspector to review that ruling with his higher ups.  We can't >> start setting precedents that are unreasonable and incorrect.  The >> array wiring is already required to be protected by either height, >> protective panels or fencing. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 2/13/20 1:56 PM, Christopher Warfel wrote: >>> >>> Ray, I spent a bit of time today with a person who inspects for >>> several state renewable energy programs and to summarize, this >>> person said the opposite of what you said, and finish saying "seems >>> pretty clear cut".  We did review three sections of 690, and one >>> from 705.  I pointed out that these are not controlled conductors as >>> I interpret them but they should have been defined.   I did not see >>> any earlier posts regarding this, so I apologize for the redundancy. >>> >>> On 2/13/2020 3:16 PM, Ray wrote: >>>> >>>> This has been discussed to death in previous Wrench strings.  Just >>>> to cut to the chase: >>>> >>>> please review NEC 2017, Figure 690.1(b) Note:(2). /The PV system >>>> disconnect in these diagrams separates the PV system from all other >>>> systems.// >>>> / >>>> >>>> The inverter, charge controller, batteries etc are no longer part >>>> of article 690, and are not subject to its requirements.  Look at >>>> articles 705, 706, and 480 for guidance for those _/other systems/_. >>>> >>>> /Ray Walters/ >>>> Remote Solar >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>> On 2/13/20 12:55 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>>>> Hi Chris, >>>>> >>>>> A few times and my back-up with a schneider system is their rapid >>>>> shutdown. In the end the inspector comes around and realizes there is >>>>> little gain for an offgrid ground mounted array for fireman. You do have to >>>>> educate them and if they are insistent on being a bonehead, install the RS >>>>> for the inspection and then use the box for the next one or sell it. >>>>> >>>>> After almost 30 years offgrid the last thing I want is something that can >>>>> fault out the solar or worse when I am away. Networks can be the enemy at >>>>> times. Less is more offgrid in my opinion. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>>>> e-mailoffgridsolar at sti.net >>>>> text 209 813 0060 >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 13:07:53 -0500, Christopher Warfel >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> I got involved in a long discussion on Rapid Shutdown compliance for >>>>>> battery multimode, grid interconnect inverters that have a ground >>>>>> mounted array.  At one point, ground mounted array was not supposed to >>>>>> be subject to Rapid Shutdown unless there were dc conductors on the >>>>>> building.  NEC 2017 seems to say it is if conductors are 3' in or on >>>>>> buildings.  The intent of Rapid Shutdown was supposed to protect fire >>>>>> fighters from exposure to high dc voltage when the array was on a roof. >>>>>> Every code cycle it morphs into something a little different.  Has >>>>>> anyone had to confront this situation, and was this type of project >>>>>> subject to Rapid Shutdown?  Thanks in advance for any clarity on this. >>>>>> Chris >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: >>>>>> >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: oehgchkkpmkdlkfa.png Type: image/png Size: 91060 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Feb 13 19:26:58 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 16:26:58 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Ground Mounted Multimode (Battery) Inverters In-Reply-To: <7fb8d3b3-c9c7-c729-fcd4-fe1098b87f66@solarray.com> References: <9d3305f0-5a60-28ee-696b-e292126d8ba4@solarray.com> <7fb8d3b3-c9c7-c729-fcd4-fe1098b87f66@solarray.com> Message-ID: <5f92a550ce6c35aca3adce97660766c2@127.0.0.1> Unfortunately Ray I have had 2 cases where the Local building inspector thought that it was a wildfire risk to not have RS, and yes on a ground mount. Too long to go into here but in the rurals where my clients are, it can be easier to comply. After about 4 phone calls it was easier to just do what he wanted and then make the change after inspection. Hope others do not have this issue. DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:07:52 -0700, Ray wrote: Here's a page I put in my plan sets to make its clear for the AHJ. I have not had this challenged, and we have never implemented Rapid Shutdown on a ground mounted array. This points out the problem of inconsistent interpretation due in part to conflicting or unclear language. I always like to ask how many basements have protection around the NM conductors running through and along the rafters. I know several people on CMPs are on this listserv. I am hoping that they can add some clear language, and not leave it to a footnote for implementing this aspect of the NEC. On 2/13/2020 4:42 PM, Ray wrote: It all comes down to where you install the PV disconnect. We put it on the wall before the conductors enter the building or at the array, therefore 690 doesn't apply. Proper signage is required indicating multiple power sources and listing the locations of their disconnects. Also, this isn't just my opinion, many others on the list have said this, including folks involved in the code writing process, and the code says this. The fact that your inspector didn't catch the note on the figure is to be expected, as it is not out in flashing neon lights. It is however a clear statement of where 690 stops: at the PV disconnect. Unfortunately, this is not further clarified in 2020 from what I can tell, so we will all continue to suffer inspectors incorrectly expecting 690.12 on ground mounted systems. I would politely ask your inspector to review that ruling with his higher ups. We can't start setting precedents that are unreasonable and incorrect. The array wiring is already required to be protected by either height, protective panels or fencing. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 2/13/20 1:56 PM, Christopher Warfel wrote: Ray, I spent a bit of time today with a person who inspects for several state renewable energy programs and to summarize, this person said the opposite of what you said, and finish saying "seems pretty clear cut". We did review three sections of 690, and one from 705. I pointed out that these are not controlled conductors as I interpret them but they should have been defined. I did not see any earlier posts regarding this, so I apologize for the redundancy. On 2/13/2020 3:16 PM, Ray wrote: This has been discussed to death in previous Wrench strings. Just to cut to the chase: please review NEC 2017, Figure 690.1(b) Note:(2). _The PV system disconnect in these diagrams separates the PV system from all other systems._ The inverter, charge controller, batteries etc are no longer part of article 690, and are not subject to its requirements. Look at articles 705, 706, and 480 for guidance for those _other systems_. _Ray Walters_ Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 2/13/20 12:55 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Hi Chris, A few times and my back-up with a schneider system is their rapid shutdown. In the end the inspector comes around and realizes there is little gain for an offgrid ground mounted array for fireman. You do have to educate them and if they are insistent on being a bonehead, install the RS for the inspection and then use the box for the next one or sell it. After almost 30 years offgrid the last thing I want is something that can fault out the solar or worse when I am away. Networks can be the enemy at times. Less is more offgrid in my opinion. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [4] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 13:07:53 -0500, Christopher Warfel [5] wrote: I got involved in a long discussion on Rapid Shutdown compliance for battery multimode, grid interconnect inverters that have a ground mounted array. At one point, ground mounted array was not supposed to be subject to Rapid Shutdown unless there were dc conductors on the building. NEC 2017 seems to say it is if conductors are 3' in or on buildings. The intent of Rapid Shutdown was supposed to protect fire fighters from exposure to high dc voltage when the array was on a roof. Every code cycle it morphs into something a little different. Has anyone had to confront this situation, and was this type of project subject to Rapid Shutdown? Thanks in advance for any clarity on this. Chris _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] Change listserver email address border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"> List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [13] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [15] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [18] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [19] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [20] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [21] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [22] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [23] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [24] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [25] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [26] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [27] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [28] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [29] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [30] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [31] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [32] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [33] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [34] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [35] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [5] mailto:cwarfel at entech-engineering.com [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [9] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [14] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [16] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [19] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [20] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [21] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [22] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [23] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [24] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [25] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [26] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [27] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [28] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [29] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [30] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [31] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [32] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [33] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [34] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [35] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: oehgchkkpmkdlkfa.png Type: image/png Size: 91060 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bruce4power at gmail.com Sun Feb 16 14:43:15 2020 From: bruce4power at gmail.com (Bruce Geddes) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 08:43:15 +1300 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Ground Mounted Multimode (Battery) Inverters In-Reply-To: <5f92a550ce6c35aca3adce97660766c2@127.0.0.1> References: <9d3305f0-5a60-28ee-696b-e292126d8ba4@solarray.com> <7fb8d3b3-c9c7-c729-fcd4-fe1098b87f66@solarray.com> <5f92a550ce6c35aca3adce97660766c2@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Hi, I am the wife of Bruce and I have to tell you that my beloved husband had a fatal accident. Sylvia On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 at 13:27, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Unfortunately Ray I have had 2 cases where the Local building inspector > thought that it was a wildfire risk to not have RS, and yes on a ground > mount. Too long to go into here but in the rurals where my clients are, it > can be easier to comply. > > After about 4 phone calls it was easier to just do what he wanted and then > make the change after inspection. Hope others do not have this issue. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:07:52 -0700, Ray wrote: > > Here's a page I put in my plan sets to make its clear for the AHJ. I have > not had this challenged, and we have never implemented Rapid Shutdown on a > ground mounted array. > > > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 2/13/20 2:57 PM, Christopher Warfel wrote: > > This points out the problem of inconsistent interpretation due in part to > conflicting or unclear language. I always like to ask how many basements > have protection around the NM conductors running through and along the > rafters. I know several people on CMPs are on this listserv. I am hoping > that they can add some clear language, and not leave it to a footnote for > implementing this aspect of the NEC. > On 2/13/2020 4:42 PM, Ray wrote: > > It all comes down to where you install the PV disconnect. We put it on > the wall before the conductors enter the building or at the array, > therefore 690 doesn't apply. Proper signage is required indicating > multiple power sources and listing the locations of their disconnects. > > Also, this isn't just my opinion, many others on the list have said this, > including folks involved in the code writing process, and the code says > this. The fact that your inspector didn't catch the note on the figure is > to be expected, as it is not out in flashing neon lights. It is however a > clear statement of where 690 stops: at the PV disconnect. > > Unfortunately, this is not further clarified in 2020 from what I can tell, > so we will all continue to suffer inspectors incorrectly expecting 690.12 > on ground mounted systems. I would politely ask your inspector to review > that ruling with his higher ups. We can't start setting precedents that > are unreasonable and incorrect. The array wiring is already required to be > protected by either height, protective panels or fencing. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 2/13/20 1:56 PM, Christopher Warfel wrote: > > Ray, I spent a bit of time today with a person who inspects for several > state renewable energy programs and to summarize, this person said the > opposite of what you said, and finish saying "seems pretty clear cut". We > did review three sections of 690, and one from 705. I pointed out that > these are not controlled conductors as I interpret them but they should > have been defined. I did not see any earlier posts regarding this, so I > apologize for the redundancy. > On 2/13/2020 3:16 PM, Ray wrote: > > This has been discussed to death in previous Wrench strings. Just to cut > to the chase: > > please review NEC 2017, Figure 690.1(b) Note:(2). *The PV system > disconnect in these diagrams separates the PV system from all other > systems.* > > The inverter, charge controller, batteries etc are no longer part of > article 690, and are not subject to its requirements. Look at articles > 705, 706, and 480 for guidance for those *other systems*. > > *Ray Walters* > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 2/13/20 12:55 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > A few times and my back-up with a schneider system is their rapid > shutdown. In the end the inspector comes around and realizes there is > little gain for an offgrid ground mounted array for fireman. You do have to > educate them and if they are insistent on being a bonehead, install the RS > for the inspection and then use the box for the next one or sell it. > > After almost 30 years offgrid the last thing I want is something that can > fault out the solar or worse when I am away. Networks can be the enemy at > times. Less is more offgrid in my opinion. > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't"http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 13:07:53 -0500, Christopher Warfel wrote: > > I got involved in a long discussion on Rapid Shutdown compliance for > battery multimode, grid interconnect inverters that have a ground > mounted array. At one point, ground mounted array was not supposed to > be subject to Rapid Shutdown unless there were dc conductors on the > building. NEC 2017 seems to say it is if conductors are 3' in or on > buildings. The intent of Rapid Shutdown was supposed to protect fire > fighters from exposure to high dc voltage when the array was on a roof. > Every code cycle it morphs into something a little different. Has > anyone had to confront this situation, and was this type of project > subject to Rapid Shutdown? Thanks in advance for any clarity on this. > Chris > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: oehgchkkpmkdlkfa.png Type: image/png Size: 91060 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jon.siegenthaler at gmail.com Tue Feb 18 23:36:45 2020 From: jon.siegenthaler at gmail.com (Jon Siegenthaler) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 22:36:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Reliant L16 AMG Message-ID: Hey Wrenches, I just did a site visit for a client who's had a few iterations of PV installed. The main reason for the call was that the battery bank would never charge to 100%SOC but rather appear to charge to 100%SOC and actually hover around 70%SOC. At the end of the day the client would top it off with the generator for 30-60min. This has been happening since October, I just got the call the other day. The site is less than code compliant to say the least and the programming of the 3 charge controllers were not equal. Array 1 South Facing 4-Canadian 250w (one string) Flexmax 80 Absorb 29.3V 6hrs Float 27.3 End Amps 10A Rebulk 25V Array 2 South Facing 6-205w 2-195w (one string) Flexmax 60 Absorb 29.3V 6hrs Float 27.3 End Amps 10A Rebulk 25.6V Array 3 North Facing 8-295w Renosola (4 strings) Flexmax 80 Absorb 29.4 1hr Float 27.3 End Amps 0 Rebulk 24 20-Trojan Reliant L16 12V (5 parallel to a bus) purchased the end of 2017 Apart from the not so great design to say it lightly, the bank is consistently showing a stepping voltage of about 70%SOC up to 100%SOC from negative to positive. I changed the charge controllers to an equal absorption voltage and time (28.8V and 4hrs) to try and slowly bring up the lagging side of the bank. I was cautious not to raise them all to 29.4 at 4+hrs because I don't know their history and didn't want to cook them further if they are indeed headed that way. At the time of inspection the batteries were about 84F and the thermal camera showed no variations or hot spots. I asked the owner to report back if it gets better, worse, or the same. He reported back and said that the total kWh production daily is gradually going down over these past few days. Any suggestions on how to bring this bank back to 100%SOC would be appreciated. Jon Siegenthaler -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Wed Feb 19 00:21:50 2020 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 21:21:50 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Reliant L16 AMG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Jon, I know this is coming from a Trojan competitor... but in the interest in attempting to help... The battery bank sounds severely sulfated to me... The settings that he had originally programmed are going to contribute to this. Unfortunately by setting the Bulk/Absorb to 28.8, not only is going to contribute to this but it's going to accelerate the sulfation issues. I would suggest getting the voltages up to 29.6 or maybe 29.8 until recovery. Are you aware that most battery manufactures including trojan have raised their recommendations on Bulk/Absorb Voltage over the past 5-6 years? Not sure about the Model number that he's using but the L16's tend to be around 29.6 Volts Temp compensated at 25C or 77F... I'm also assuming 2000 ah of capacity... This means that if you are using the Battery Temp Sensors you set the Bulk/Absorb Voltage at 29.6, and the Temps compensation to 5mv and let the charger do the temp compensation. Here is how I would program the controllers. Array 1 South Facing 4-Canadian 250w (one string) This array is only 1000 Watts... At the peak in perfect conditions, you are only going to see a max output of between 40 and 45 amps of current. Flexmax 80 Absorb 29.3V 6hrs *29.6 (29.8) 8 Hours.* Float 27.3 *27.3* End Amps 10A * 0 (Typically I'd set for 4-6, but End Amps can trigger to easily on a sulfated bank so it should be defeated or 0)* Rebulk 25V *Solar Array is too Small Re-Bulk Voltage will never trigger because the controller really should never be in float. * Array 2 South Facing 6-205w 2-195w (one string) This array is only 1620 Watts... At the peak in perfect conditions, you are only going to see a max output of between 60-70 amps of current, but with the module mismatch, this will be closer to 50-55 amps of current. Flexmax 60 Absorb 29.3V 6hrs * 29.6 (29.8)* *8 Hours. * Float 27.3 * 27.3* End Amps 10A * 0 (Typically I'd set for 4-6 Hours, but End Amps can trigger to easily on a sulfated bank so it should be defeated or 0) * Rebulk 25.6V * Same As Above.. * For Flooded Lead-acid batteries when you finish the Bulk Stage of charging (Voltage gets to 29.6 Volts) the battery bank is only about 80% SOC. In Bulk, you are about 90-100 of peak current going into the battery. When Absorb starts current starts to drop off typically up to 60% during the entire absorb stage... It's tough to calculate this, at rolls we have the formula to do this which is: .42 X C/20 Rate / Nominal Current. Since these two arrays are pointing the same general direction I would have added the currents of these together and derated them 60-70%... The best thing to do is to take a couple of meter readings when the battery bank is new and adjust absorb time-based on actual SG readings. So in this case peak currents together are going to be around: Array 1 40 amps Array 2 60 amps (limited by the controller) 100 amp total current... So: .42 X 2000 ah / 60a (70) = 12 to 14 Hours! We are all aware that this array alone it'll take two full days of the summer sun to get to 100%... Array 3 North Facing 8-295w Renosola (4 strings) Flexmax 80 Absorb 29.4 1hr *29.6 (29.8) - 8 Hr. * Float 27.3 *27.3* End Amps 0 *Same Advice as above..*. Rebulk 24 *Same As Above. * Using the same principles on this array, that I did the last... .42 X 2000 / 70 amps = 12 Hours.. These arrays are sized way too small! There isn't much reason to set the Absrob Time much past 8 hours. Lastly, I'm assuming you're getting your SOC information from the Flexnet DC... Those Settings should be as follows.. End Amps or Return Amps = 30-40 Parameters Met Voltage 29.4 (Typically .2vdc under Target Voltage for 24 Volt Systems) Parameters Met Time = 1 Hour. BCF% = 80% (For Flooded, regardless of who makes them this should be 80% to start, after three years you should lower by 1% per year because as batteries age, they become less efficient. In any case, due to the undersized nature of the arrays, I would advise that you have the customer start the generator about 4-5 days a week before the sun hits the panels... when the sun hits the panels, you shut the generator off, and let the solar do the absorb charge. As the battery bank starts to get closer to 1.265+ in Specific Gravity's then you can start to back off the number of times you need to start but the fact is this battery bank is way to large for this array to handle. They should be starting the genny at least one day a week to get any FLA battery to full at least once a week. Good luck, and if you have any further questions I'll do what I can to help... Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ *Become a Certified PV Professional. Register for* *NABCEP CEC 2020* *using promo code* *20RBE* ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 8:37 PM Jon Siegenthaler wrote: > Hey Wrenches, > > I just did a site visit for a client who's had a few iterations of PV > installed. The main reason for the call was that the battery bank would > never charge to 100%SOC but rather appear to charge to 100%SOC and actually > hover around 70%SOC. At the end of the day the client would top it off > with the generator for 30-60min. This has been happening since October, I > just got the call the other day. > > The site is less than code compliant to say the least and the programming > of the 3 charge controllers were not equal. > > Array 1 South Facing 4-Canadian 250w (one string) > Flexmax 80 > Absorb 29.3V 6hrs > Float 27.3 > End Amps 10A > Rebulk 25V > > Array 2 South Facing 6-205w 2-195w (one string) > Flexmax 60 > Absorb 29.3V 6hrs > Float 27.3 > End Amps 10A > Rebulk 25.6V > > Array 3 North Facing 8-295w Renosola (4 strings) > Flexmax 80 > Absorb 29.4 1hr > Float 27.3 > End Amps 0 > Rebulk 24 > > 20-Trojan Reliant L16 12V (5 parallel to a bus) purchased the end of 2017 > > Apart from the not so great design to say it lightly, the bank is > consistently showing a stepping voltage of about 70%SOC up to 100%SOC from > negative to positive. I changed the charge controllers to an equal > absorption voltage and time (28.8V and 4hrs) to try and slowly bring up the > lagging side of the bank. I was cautious not to raise them all to 29.4 at > 4+hrs because I don't know their history and didn't want to cook them > further if they are indeed headed that way. At the time of inspection the > batteries were about 84F and the thermal camera showed no variations or hot > spots. > > I asked the owner to report back if it gets better, worse, or the same. He > reported back and said that the total kWh production daily is gradually > going down over these past few days. Any suggestions on how to bring this > bank back to 100%SOC would be appreciated. > > Jon Siegenthaler > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Wed Feb 19 00:31:18 2020 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 21:31:18 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Reliant L16 AMG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jon, *I just realized that you might have meant L16-Agm? If so Ignore most of that previous email... * *Here's another swing using AGM settings and suggestions. * Are you aware that most battery manufactures including trojan have raised their recommendations on Bulk/Absorb Voltage over the past 5-6 years? Not sure about the Model number that he's using but the L16's tend to be around 29.6 Volts Temp compensated at 25C or 77F... I'm also assuming 2000 ah of capacity... This means that if you are using the Battery Temp Sensors you set the Bulk/Absorb Voltage at 28.8, and the Temps compensation to 4mv and let the charger do the temp compensation. Here is how I would program the controllers. Array 1 South Facing 4-Canadian 250w (one string) This array is only 1000 Watts... At the peak in perfect conditions, you are only going to see a max output of between 40 and 45 amps of current. Flexmax 80 Absorb 29.3V 6hrs 28.8* 8 Hours.* Float 27.3 *27.3* End Amps 10A * 0 (Typically I'd set for 4-6, but End Amps can trigger to easily on a sulfated bank so it should be defeated or 0)* Rebulk 25V *Solar Array is too Small Re-Bulk Voltage will never trigger because the controller really should never be in float. * Array 2 South Facing 6-205w 2-195w (one string) This array is only 1620 Watts... At the peak in perfect conditions, you are only going to see a max output of between 60-70 amps of current, but with the module mismatch, this will be closer to 50-55 amps of current. Flexmax 60 Absorb 29.3V 6hrs * 28.8 (29.8)* *8 Hours. * Float 27.3 * 27.3* End Amps 10A * 0 (Typically I'd set for 4-6 Hours, but End Amps can trigger to easily on a sulfated bank so it should be defeated or 0)* Rebulk 25.6V * Same As Above.. * For AGM batteries when you finish the Bulk Stage of charging (Voltage gets to 29.6 Volts) the battery bank is only about 82-85% SOC. In Bulk, you are about 90-100 of peak current going into the battery. When Absorb starts current starts to drop off typically up to 60% during the entire absorb stage... It's tough to calculate this, at rolls we have the formula to do this which is: .38 X C/20 Rate / Nominal Current. Since these two arrays are pointing the same general direction I would have added the currents of these together and derated them 60-70%... The best thing to do is to take a couple of meter readings when the battery bank is new and adjust absorb time-based on actual SG readings. So in this case peak currents together are going to be around: Array 1 40 amps Array 2 60 amps (limited by the controller) 100 amp total current... So: .38 X 1850 ah / 60a (70) = 10 to 11.7 Hours! We are all aware that this array alone it'll take two full days of the summer sun to get to 100%... Array 3 North Facing 8-295w Renosola (4 strings) Flexmax 80 Absorb 29.4 1hr *28.8 - 8 Hr. * Float 27.3 *27.3* End Amps 0 *Same Advice as above..*. Rebulk 24 *Same As Above. * Using the same principles on this array, that I did the last... .38 X 1850 / 70 amps = 10 Hours.. These arrays are sized way too small! There isn't much reason to set the Absrob Time much past 8 hours. With some AGMs you can EQ, but If these settings don't work then you can try to go higher 29.2 to 29.4... Lastly, I'm assuming you're getting your SOC information from the Flexnet DC... Those Settings should be as follows.. End Amps or Return Amps = 30-40 Parameters Met Voltage 28.6 (Typically .2vdc under Target Voltage for 24 Volt Systems) Parameters Met Time = 1 Hour. BCF% = 80% (For Lead Acid, including AGM's, regardless of who makes them this should be 80% to start, after three years you should lower by 1% per year because as batteries age, they become less efficient.) In any case, due to the undersized nature of the arrays, I would advise that you have the customer start the generator about 4-5 days a week before the sun hits the panels... when the sun hits the panels, you shut the generator off, and let the solar do the absorb charge. They should be starting the genny at least one day a week to get any FLA battery to full at least once a week. Good luck, and if you have any further questions I'll do what I can to help... Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ *Become a Certified PV Professional. Register for* *NABCEP CEC 2020* *using promo code* *20RBE* ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 9:21 PM Steve Higgins wrote: > Hey Jon, > > I know this is coming from a Trojan competitor... but in the interest in > attempting to help... > > The battery bank sounds severely sulfated to me... The settings that he > had originally programmed are going to contribute to this. Unfortunately > by setting the Bulk/Absorb to 28.8, not only is going to contribute to this > but it's going to accelerate the sulfation issues. I would suggest > getting the voltages up to 29.6 or maybe 29.8 until recovery. > > Are you aware that most battery manufactures including trojan have raised > their recommendations on Bulk/Absorb Voltage over the past 5-6 years? > > Not sure about the Model number that he's using but the L16's tend to be > around 29.6 Volts Temp compensated at 25C or 77F... I'm also assuming > 2000 ah of capacity... > > This means that if you are using the Battery Temp Sensors you set the > Bulk/Absorb Voltage at 29.6, and the Temps compensation to 5mv and let the > charger do the temp compensation. > > Here is how I would program the controllers. > > Array 1 South Facing 4-Canadian 250w (one string) > > This array is only 1000 Watts... At the peak in perfect conditions, you > are only going to see a max output of between 40 and 45 amps of current. > > Flexmax 80 > Absorb 29.3V 6hrs *29.6 (29.8) 8 Hours.* > Float 27.3 *27.3* > End Amps 10A * 0 (Typically I'd set for 4-6, but > End Amps can trigger to easily on a sulfated bank so it should be defeated > or 0)* > Rebulk 25V *Solar Array is too Small Re-Bulk > Voltage will never trigger because the controller really should never be in > float. * > > Array 2 South Facing 6-205w 2-195w (one string) > > This array is only 1620 Watts... At the peak in perfect conditions, you > are only going to see a max output of between 60-70 amps of current, but > with the module mismatch, this will be closer to 50-55 amps of current. > > Flexmax 60 > Absorb 29.3V 6hrs * 29.6 (29.8)* *8 Hours. * > Float 27.3 * 27.3* > End Amps 10A * 0 (Typically I'd set for 4-6 > Hours, but End Amps can trigger to easily on a sulfated bank so it should > be defeated or 0) * > Rebulk 25.6V * Same As Above.. * > > For Flooded Lead-acid batteries when you finish the Bulk Stage of charging > (Voltage gets to 29.6 Volts) the battery bank is only about 80% SOC. In > Bulk, you are about 90-100 of peak current going into the battery. When > Absorb starts current starts to drop off typically up to 60% during the > entire absorb stage... It's tough to calculate this, at rolls we have the > formula to do this which is: > > .42 X C/20 Rate / Nominal Current. > > Since these two arrays are pointing the same general direction I would > have added the currents of these together and derated them 60-70%... The > best thing to do is to take a couple of meter readings when the battery > bank is new and adjust absorb time-based on actual SG readings. > > So in this case peak currents together are going to be around: > > Array 1 40 amps > Array 2 60 amps (limited by the controller) > > 100 amp total current... > > So: .42 X 2000 ah / 60a (70) = 12 to 14 Hours! We are all aware > that this array alone it'll take two full days of the summer sun to get to > 100%... > Array 3 North Facing 8-295w Renosola (4 strings) > > Flexmax 80 > > Absorb 29.4 1hr *29.6 (29.8) - 8 Hr. * > Float 27.3 *27.3* > End Amps 0 *Same Advice as above..*. > Rebulk 24 *Same As Above. * > > Using the same principles on this array, that I did the last... > > .42 X 2000 / 70 amps = 12 Hours.. > > These arrays are sized way too small! There isn't much reason to set the > Absrob Time much past 8 hours. > > > Lastly, I'm assuming you're getting your SOC information from the Flexnet > DC... > > Those Settings should be as follows.. > > End Amps or Return Amps = 30-40 > Parameters Met Voltage 29.4 (Typically .2vdc under Target Voltage for 24 > Volt Systems) > Parameters Met Time = 1 Hour. > BCF% = 80% (For Flooded, regardless of who makes them this should be 80% > to start, after three years you should lower by 1% per year because as > batteries age, they become less efficient. > > > In any case, due to the undersized nature of the arrays, I would advise > that you have the customer start the generator about 4-5 days a week before > the sun hits the panels... when the sun hits the panels, you shut the > generator off, and let the solar do the absorb charge. As the battery > bank starts to get closer to 1.265+ in Specific Gravity's then you can > start to back off the number of times you need to start but the fact is > this battery bank is way to large for this array to handle. They should > be starting the genny at least one day a week to get any FLA battery to > full at least once a week. > > Good luck, and if you have any further questions I'll do what I can to > help... > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > <#m_3835868110911509679_SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *Become a Certified PV Professional. Register for* *NABCEP CEC 2020* > *using promo code* *20RBE* > > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 8:37 PM Jon Siegenthaler < > jon.siegenthaler at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hey Wrenches, >> >> I just did a site visit for a client who's had a few iterations of PV >> installed. The main reason for the call was that the battery bank would >> never charge to 100%SOC but rather appear to charge to 100%SOC and actually >> hover around 70%SOC. At the end of the day the client would top it off >> with the generator for 30-60min. This has been happening since October, I >> just got the call the other day. >> >> The site is less than code compliant to say the least and the programming >> of the 3 charge controllers were not equal. >> >> Array 1 South Facing 4-Canadian 250w (one string) >> Flexmax 80 >> Absorb 29.3V 6hrs >> Float 27.3 >> End Amps 10A >> Rebulk 25V >> >> Array 2 South Facing 6-205w 2-195w (one string) >> Flexmax 60 >> Absorb 29.3V 6hrs >> Float 27.3 >> End Amps 10A >> Rebulk 25.6V >> >> Array 3 North Facing 8-295w Renosola (4 strings) >> Flexmax 80 >> Absorb 29.4 1hr >> Float 27.3 >> End Amps 0 >> Rebulk 24 >> >> 20-Trojan Reliant L16 12V (5 parallel to a bus) purchased the end of 2017 >> >> Apart from the not so great design to say it lightly, the bank is >> consistently showing a stepping voltage of about 70%SOC up to 100%SOC from >> negative to positive. I changed the charge controllers to an equal >> absorption voltage and time (28.8V and 4hrs) to try and slowly bring up the >> lagging side of the bank. I was cautious not to raise them all to 29.4 at >> 4+hrs because I don't know their history and didn't want to cook them >> further if they are indeed headed that way. At the time of inspection the >> batteries were about 84F and the thermal camera showed no variations or hot >> spots. >> >> I asked the owner to report back if it gets better, worse, or the same. >> He reported back and said that the total kWh production daily is gradually >> going down over these past few days. Any suggestions on how to bring this >> bank back to 100%SOC would be appreciated. >> >> Jon Siegenthaler >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Feb 19 09:45:26 2020 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 08:45:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Reliant L16 AMG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jon, my take is the absorb is way too short, the array is way too small, The solar period is over before the batteries are charged. I would set absorb at 28.8 Volts, 6 hrs, because the winter days are short. I do not know how to set charge max amps with paralleled controllers. Then set back to normal for after equinox. On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 10:37 PM Jon Siegenthaler < jon.siegenthaler at gmail.com> wrote: > Hey Wrenches, > > I just did a site visit for a client who's had a few iterations of PV > installed. The main reason for the call was that the battery bank would > never charge to 100%SOC but rather appear to charge to 100%SOC and actually > hover around 70%SOC. At the end of the day the client would top it off > with the generator for 30-60min. This has been happening since October, I > just got the call the other day. > > The site is less than code compliant to say the least and the programming > of the 3 charge controllers were not equal. > > Array 1 South Facing 4-Canadian 250w (one string) > Flexmax 80 > Absorb 29.3V 6hrs > Float 27.3 > End Amps 10A > Rebulk 25V > > Array 2 South Facing 6-205w 2-195w (one string) > Flexmax 60 > Absorb 29.3V 6hrs > Float 27.3 > End Amps 10A > Rebulk 25.6V > > Array 3 North Facing 8-295w Renosola (4 strings) > Flexmax 80 > Absorb 29.4 1hr > Float 27.3 > End Amps 0 > Rebulk 24 > > 20-Trojan Reliant L16 12V (5 parallel to a bus) purchased the end of 2017 > > Apart from the not so great design to say it lightly, the bank is > consistently showing a stepping voltage of about 70%SOC up to 100%SOC from > negative to positive. I changed the charge controllers to an equal > absorption voltage and time (28.8V and 4hrs) to try and slowly bring up the > lagging side of the bank. I was cautious not to raise them all to 29.4 at > 4+hrs because I don't know their history and didn't want to cook them > further if they are indeed headed that way. At the time of inspection the > batteries were about 84F and the thermal camera showed no variations or hot > spots. > > I asked the owner to report back if it gets better, worse, or the same. He > reported back and said that the total kWh production daily is gradually > going down over these past few days. Any suggestions on how to bring this > bank back to 100%SOC would be appreciated. > > Jon Siegenthaler > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Feb 19 09:59:47 2020 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 08:59:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Reliant L16 AMG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI again, I forgot to mention put an EGauge on this and watch the battery voltage and current, you will see the deficit charging on many days. Egauge has new sensors and is coming out with more new sensors, I would use L3 for voltage or the new 9-60 volt terminal. there are many terminals and options. On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 8:45 AM Darryl Thayer wrote: > Hi Jon, my take is the absorb is way too short, the array is way too > small, The solar period is over before the batteries are charged. I would > set absorb at 28.8 Volts, 6 hrs, because the winter days are short. I do > not know how to set charge max amps with paralleled controllers. Then set > back to normal for after equinox. > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 10:37 PM Jon Siegenthaler < > jon.siegenthaler at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hey Wrenches, >> >> I just did a site visit for a client who's had a few iterations of PV >> installed. The main reason for the call was that the battery bank would >> never charge to 100%SOC but rather appear to charge to 100%SOC and actually >> hover around 70%SOC. At the end of the day the client would top it off >> with the generator for 30-60min. This has been happening since October, I >> just got the call the other day. >> >> The site is less than code compliant to say the least and the programming >> of the 3 charge controllers were not equal. >> >> Array 1 South Facing 4-Canadian 250w (one string) >> Flexmax 80 >> Absorb 29.3V 6hrs >> Float 27.3 >> End Amps 10A >> Rebulk 25V >> >> Array 2 South Facing 6-205w 2-195w (one string) >> Flexmax 60 >> Absorb 29.3V 6hrs >> Float 27.3 >> End Amps 10A >> Rebulk 25.6V >> >> Array 3 North Facing 8-295w Renosola (4 strings) >> Flexmax 80 >> Absorb 29.4 1hr >> Float 27.3 >> End Amps 0 >> Rebulk 24 >> >> 20-Trojan Reliant L16 12V (5 parallel to a bus) purchased the end of 2017 >> >> Apart from the not so great design to say it lightly, the bank is >> consistently showing a stepping voltage of about 70%SOC up to 100%SOC from >> negative to positive. I changed the charge controllers to an equal >> absorption voltage and time (28.8V and 4hrs) to try and slowly bring up the >> lagging side of the bank. I was cautious not to raise them all to 29.4 at >> 4+hrs because I don't know their history and didn't want to cook them >> further if they are indeed headed that way. At the time of inspection the >> batteries were about 84F and the thermal camera showed no variations or hot >> spots. >> >> I asked the owner to report back if it gets better, worse, or the same. >> He reported back and said that the total kWh production daily is gradually >> going down over these past few days. Any suggestions on how to bring this >> bank back to 100%SOC would be appreciated. >> >> Jon Siegenthaler >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Feb 19 08:32:20 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:32:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Reliant L16 AMG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <511ED99F-B859-4C76-85C6-9E6A4D0F3EED@gmail.com> Hi Jon I would check to see if the Global charger control is ON. ( default) This turns off the CC when the FNDC says they have reached 100%. But in my experience it doesn’t work well and often leads to a sulfated battery’s. I always turn this feature off. jay Peltz power > On Feb 18, 2020, at 9:37 PM, Jon Siegenthaler wrote: > >  > Hey Wrenches, > > I just did a site visit for a client who's had a few iterations of PV installed. The main reason for the call was that the battery bank would never charge to 100%SOC but rather appear to charge to 100%SOC and actually hover around 70%SOC. At the end of the day the client would top it off with the generator for 30-60min. This has been happening since October, I just got the call the other day. > > The site is less than code compliant to say the least and the programming of the 3 charge controllers were not equal. > > Array 1 South Facing 4-Canadian 250w (one string) > Flexmax 80 > Absorb 29.3V 6hrs > Float 27.3 > End Amps 10A > Rebulk 25V > > Array 2 South Facing 6-205w 2-195w (one string) > Flexmax 60 > Absorb 29.3V 6hrs > Float 27.3 > End Amps 10A > Rebulk 25.6V > > Array 3 North Facing 8-295w Renosola (4 strings) > Flexmax 80 > Absorb 29.4 1hr > Float 27.3 > End Amps 0 > Rebulk 24 > > 20-Trojan Reliant L16 12V (5 parallel to a bus) purchased the end of 2017 > > Apart from the not so great design to say it lightly, the bank is consistently showing a stepping voltage of about 70%SOC up to 100%SOC from negative to positive. I changed the charge controllers to an equal absorption voltage and time (28.8V and 4hrs) to try and slowly bring up the lagging side of the bank. I was cautious not to raise them all to 29.4 at 4+hrs because I don't know their history and didn't want to cook them further if they are indeed headed that way. At the time of inspection the batteries were about 84F and the thermal camera showed no variations or hot spots. > > I asked the owner to report back if it gets better, worse, or the same. He reported back and said that the total kWh production daily is gradually going down over these past few days. Any suggestions on how to bring this bank back to 100%SOC would be appreciated. > > Jon Siegenthaler > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From kent at coveoregon.com Thu Feb 20 13:32:57 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 10:32:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark audible noise Message-ID: <94930a9a-f6d7-a47b-61dc-5245b4d2eefe@coveoregon.com> Would any of you that have installed the Sol-Ark inverters care to compare the audible noise level to other inverters such as the XW+ or the Radian? Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Thu Feb 20 13:39:58 2020 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 13:39:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark audible noise In-Reply-To: <94930a9a-f6d7-a47b-61dc-5245b4d2eefe@coveoregon.com> References: <94930a9a-f6d7-a47b-61dc-5245b4d2eefe@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: Hi Kent, We have two 8 kW and four 12 kW installed in the Bahamas. We installed one in a bedroom closet about two months ago and the client is still happy. There are some relays and occasional hum but to my ears, they are less noisy than the XW+ and certainly no more than the Radian. The initial startup is the only real noise, with the startup fan being the loudest. We are really happy with these inverters so far. Their monitoring platform is still a work in progress IMHO and they are working on being able to control settings remotely like Optics RE. My next job is on Abaco with a 12 kW. They are eay to install, self contained and are an excellent match with LiFePo batteries. Be aware the 8 kW does not have a battery disconnect. The 12 kW does. Daryl > Would any of you that have installed the Sol-Ark inverters care to > compare the audible noise level to other inverters such as the XW+ or > the Radian? > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 20 15:03:39 2020 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (MiJo Nels) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 20:03:39 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark audible noise In-Reply-To: References: <94930a9a-f6d7-a47b-61dc-5245b4d2eefe@coveoregon.com>, Message-ID: I concur with Daryl, noise is at most comparable and doesn't exceed any other inverter. I just take care to keep it off the bedroom wall (like any inverter).. Joe Nelson Project Manager C-46/C-10 Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation CSL# 868816 www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com 530-273-4422 (Office) 530-217-8385 (Cell)      ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 10:39:58 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark audible noise Hi Kent, We have two 8 kW and four 12 kW installed in the Bahamas. We installed one in a bedroom closet about two months ago and the client is still happy. There are some relays and occasional hum but to my ears, they are less noisy than the XW+ and certainly no more than the Radian. The initial startup is the only real noise, with the startup fan being the loudest. We are really happy with these inverters so far. Their monitoring platform is still a work in progress IMHO and they are working on being able to control settings remotely like Optics RE. My next job is on Abaco with a 12 kW. They are eay to install, self contained and are an excellent match with LiFePo batteries. Be aware the 8 kW does not have a battery disconnect. The 12 kW does. Daryl > Would any of you that have installed the Sol-Ark inverters care to > compare the audible noise level to other inverters such as the XW+ or > the Radian? > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hathasolar at yahoo.com Fri Feb 21 12:41:17 2020 From: hathasolar at yahoo.com (wes kennedy) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 17:41:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Power Split phase inverter/chargers References: <532147486.4584070.1582306877848.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <532147486.4584070.1582306877848@mail.yahoo.com> Hi friends, I keep running across opportunities with 50KW-300KW peak load requirements, on split phase services. Big homes, agriculture etc.  Outback, Schneider, SMA can all gang/stack into the 30-50KW range, but north of there, I am not finding many (any?) options?  Just found Aims Power 50 KW split phase unit with claims of higher power offerings by special order. Even the 50KW unit is $20K, so quite spendy. Any experience with these guys? 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO 220/230/240 Vac | | | | | | | | | | | 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO ... 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc Split Phase 220/230/240 | | | Thanks for any input!  -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073on this list since the 90's -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Fri Feb 21 14:47:34 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 11:47:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Power Split phase inverter/chargers In-Reply-To: <532147486.4584070.1582306877848@mail.yahoo.com> References: <532147486.4584070.1582306877848.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <532147486.4584070.1582306877848@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6afcfd20-dcdc-faef-e43f-0cf4df4c1468@villagepowerdesign.com> All of my SMA Sunny Island Sunny Boy AC coupled systems greater than 12 KW have worked flawlessly and delivered reliable power and good monitoring for years.  Less excited about my Schneider and Outback systems due to callbacks and hassles.  a bit more expensive but worth it IMHO. Hope that helps! Jeff wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 9:41 AM: > Hi friends, > > I keep running across opportunities with 50KW-300KW peak load > requirements, on split phase services. Big homes, agriculture etc. > > Outback, Schneider, SMA can all gang/stack into the 30-50KW range, but > north of there, I am not finding many (any?) options? > > Just found Aims Power 50 KW split phase unit with claims of higher > power offerings by special order. Even the 50KW unit is $20K, so quite > spendy. Any experience with these guys? > 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc > TO 220/230/240 Vac > > > > > > > > > > 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 > Vdc TO ... > > 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc > Split Phase 220/230/240 > > > > > Thanks for any input! > > -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 > on this list since the 90's > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hathasolar at yahoo.com Fri Feb 21 16:37:35 2020 From: hathasolar at yahoo.com (wes kennedy) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 21:37:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Power Split phase inverter/chargers In-Reply-To: <6afcfd20-dcdc-faef-e43f-0cf4df4c1468@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <532147486.4584070.1582306877848.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <532147486.4584070.1582306877848@mail.yahoo.com> <6afcfd20-dcdc-faef-e43f-0cf4df4c1468@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <813305129.4699128.1582321055999@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Jeff, I think the biggest split phase sunny island system is 4 units, so that's 24KW.  What do you do for larger systems? Segment the loads? Not always very practical.  This latest opportunity is for an agricultural building that peaks at 75KW.  -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 On Friday, February 21, 2020, 12:47:39 PM MST, Jeff Clearwater wrote: All of my SMA Sunny Island Sunny Boy AC coupled systems greater than 12 KW have worked flawlessly and delivered reliable power and good monitoring for years.  Less excited about my Schneider and Outback systems due to callbacks and hassles.  a bit more expensive but worth it IMHO. Hope that helps! Jeff wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 9:41 AM: Hi friends, I keep running across opportunities with 50KW-300KW peak load requirements, on split phase services. Big homes, agriculture etc.  Outback, Schneider, SMA can all gang/stack into the 30-50KW range, but north of there, I am not finding many (any?) options?  Just found Aims Power 50 KW split phase unit with claims of higher power offerings by special order. Even the 50KW unit is $20K, so quite spendy. Any experience with these guys? 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO 220/230/240 Vac | | | | | | | | | | | 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO ... 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc Split Phase 220/230/240 | | | Thanks for any input!  -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073on this list since the 90's _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Fri Feb 21 16:47:53 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 13:47:53 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Power Split phase inverter/chargers In-Reply-To: <813305129.4699128.1582321055999@mail.yahoo.com> References: <532147486.4584070.1582306877848.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <532147486.4584070.1582306877848@mail.yahoo.com> <6afcfd20-dcdc-faef-e43f-0cf4df4c1468@villagepowerdesign.com> <813305129.4699128.1582321055999@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3a376a8d-7427-1b48-b0c7-d2f3a5b9a211@coveoregon.com> What I've noticed is that most of the AIMS inverters are not UL, ETL, or otherwise third-party tested. And none seam to be designed for utility interactive operation. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 2/21/2020 1:37 PM, wes kennedy wrote: > Hi Jeff, > > I think the biggest split phase sunny island system is 4 units, so > that's 24KW. > > What do you do for larger systems? Segment the loads? Not always very > practical. > > This latest opportunity is for an agricultural building that peaks at > 75KW. > > > > -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 > > > On Friday, February 21, 2020, 12:47:39 PM MST, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > > > All of my SMA Sunny Island Sunny Boy AC coupled systems greater than > 12 KW have worked flawlessly and delivered reliable power and good > monitoring for years. Less excited about my Schneider and Outback > systems due to callbacks and hassles.  a bit more expensive but worth > it IMHO. > > Hope that helps! > > Jeff > > wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 9:41 AM: > Hi friends, > > I keep running across opportunities with 50KW-300KW peak load > requirements, on split phase services. Big homes, agriculture etc. > > Outback, Schneider, SMA can all gang/stack into the 30-50KW range, but > north of there, I am not finding many (any?) options? > > Just found Aims Power 50 KW split phase unit with claims of higher > power offerings by special order. Even the 50KW unit is $20K, so quite > spendy. Any experience with these guys? > 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc > TO 220/230/240 Vac > > > > > > > > > > > 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 > Vdc TO ... > > 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc > Split Phase 220/230/240 > > > > > Thanks for any input! > > -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 > on this list since the 90's > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Fri Feb 21 16:52:11 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 13:52:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Power Split phase inverter/chargers In-Reply-To: <813305129.4699128.1582321055999@mail.yahoo.com> References: <532147486.4584070.1582306877848.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <532147486.4584070.1582306877848@mail.yahoo.com> <6afcfd20-dcdc-faef-e43f-0cf4df4c1468@villagepowerdesign.com> <813305129.4699128.1582321055999@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Need to edit this post: The micro inverters are UL listed for grid connected operation. What I've noticed is that most of the AIMS inverters are not UL, ETL, or otherwise third-party tested. And none seam to be designed for utility interactive operation. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 2/21/2020 1:37 PM, wes kennedy wrote: > Hi Jeff, > > I think the biggest split phase sunny island system is 4 units, so > that's 24KW. > > What do you do for larger systems? Segment the loads? Not always very > practical. > > This latest opportunity is for an agricultural building that peaks at > 75KW. > > > > -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 > > > On Friday, February 21, 2020, 12:47:39 PM MST, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > > > All of my SMA Sunny Island Sunny Boy AC coupled systems greater than > 12 KW have worked flawlessly and delivered reliable power and good > monitoring for years. Less excited about my Schneider and Outback > systems due to callbacks and hassles.  a bit more expensive but worth > it IMHO. > > Hope that helps! > > Jeff > > wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 9:41 AM: > Hi friends, > > I keep running across opportunities with 50KW-300KW peak load > requirements, on split phase services. Big homes, agriculture etc. > > Outback, Schneider, SMA can all gang/stack into the 30-50KW range, but > north of there, I am not finding many (any?) options? > > Just found Aims Power 50 KW split phase unit with claims of higher > power offerings by special order. Even the 50KW unit is $20K, so quite > spendy. Any experience with these guys? > 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc > TO 220/230/240 Vac > > > > > > > > > > > 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 > Vdc TO ... > > 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc > Split Phase 220/230/240 > > > > > Thanks for any input! > > -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 > on this list since the 90's > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Feb 21 16:52:38 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 13:52:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Power Split phase inverter/chargers In-Reply-To: <6afcfd20-dcdc-faef-e43f-0cf4df4c1468@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <532147486.4584070.1582306877848.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <532147486.4584070.1582306877848@mail.yahoo.com> <6afcfd20-dcdc-faef-e43f-0cf4df4c1468@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: The Tesla Powerwall system has worked well for us, and be configured up in the 50 kW + range. We've installed several 4-Powerwall systems totalling 20 kW / 54 kWh. In order to get to 50 kW battery inverter capacity, you'd need 10 Powerwalls. Now you can do multiple Gateways on site, so could conceivably do 20 + Powerwalls on a single site. August Luminalt On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 11:47 AM Jeff Clearwater < jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: > All of my SMA Sunny Island Sunny Boy AC coupled systems greater than 12 KW > have worked flawlessly and delivered reliable power and good monitoring for > years. Less excited about my Schneider and Outback systems due to > callbacks and hassles. a bit more expensive but worth it IMHO. > > Hope that helps! > > Jeff > > wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 9:41 AM: > > Hi friends, > > I keep running across opportunities with 50KW-300KW peak load > requirements, on split phase services. Big homes, agriculture etc. > > Outback, Schneider, SMA can all gang/stack into the 30-50KW range, but > north of there, I am not finding many (any?) options? > > Just found Aims Power 50 KW split phase unit with claims of higher power > offerings by special order. Even the 50KW unit is $20K, so quite spendy. > Any experience with these guys? > 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO > 220/230/240 Vac > > > > > > 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO ... > > 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc Split > Phase 220/230/240 > > > > > Thanks for any input! > > -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 > on this list since the 90's > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Fri Feb 21 16:53:09 2020 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 21:53:09 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Power Split phase inverter/chargers In-Reply-To: <813305129.4699128.1582321055999@mail.yahoo.com> References: <532147486.4584070.1582306877848.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <532147486.4584070.1582306877848@mail.yahoo.com> <6afcfd20-dcdc-faef-e43f-0cf4df4c1468@villagepowerdesign.com> <813305129.4699128.1582321055999@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Wes – Indeed, max Sunny Island 240VAC cluster is 4 units, so 23kW max BATTERY power. Limit of roughly 27kW of PV (4x 120V x 56A relay limit = 26,880W) with that cluster if grid-tied with backfeed, so around 50kW max daytime load offset per cluster. That may help if peak loads are always daytime? Are you trying to take these systems off-grid, or just reduce peak load? Best regards – Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en.html SMA America Solar Academy webinars: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en/courses.html Choose "United States" [cid:image001.jpg at 01D5E8C5.9D7E9E60][cid:image002.jpg at 01D5E8C5.9D7E9E60] [cid:image003.jpg at 01D5E8C5.9D7E9E60] [Linkedin Logo] [cid:image005.jpg at 01D5E8C5.9D7E9E60] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] [cid:image007.jpg at 01D5E8C5.9D7E9E60] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of wes kennedy Sent: Friday, February 21, 2020 2:38 PM To: RE-wrenches ; Jeff Clearwater Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High Power Split phase inverter/chargers Hi Jeff, I think the biggest split phase sunny island system is 4 units, so that's 24KW. What do you do for larger systems? Segment the loads? Not always very practical. This latest opportunity is for an agricultural building that peaks at 75KW. -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 On Friday, February 21, 2020, 12:47:39 PM MST, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: All of my SMA Sunny Island Sunny Boy AC coupled systems greater than 12 KW have worked flawlessly and delivered reliable power and good monitoring for years. Less excited about my Schneider and Outback systems due to callbacks and hassles. a bit more expensive but worth it IMHO. Hope that helps! Jeff wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 9:41 AM: Hi friends, I keep running across opportunities with 50KW-300KW peak load requirements, on split phase services. Big homes, agriculture etc. Outback, Schneider, SMA can all gang/stack into the 30-50KW range, but north of there, I am not finding many (any?) options? Just found Aims Power 50 KW split phase unit with claims of higher power offerings by special order. Even the 50KW unit is $20K, so quite spendy. Any experience with these guys? 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO 220/230/240 Vac 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO ... 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc Split Phase 220/230/240 Thanks for any input! -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 on this list since the 90's _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 808 bytes Desc: image006.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16634 bytes Desc: image007.jpg URL: From hathasolar at yahoo.com Fri Feb 21 17:06:29 2020 From: hathasolar at yahoo.com (wes kennedy) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 22:06:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Power Split phase inverter/chargers In-Reply-To: References: <532147486.4584070.1582306877848.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <532147486.4584070.1582306877848@mail.yahoo.com> <6afcfd20-dcdc-faef-e43f-0cf4df4c1468@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <1958447343.4681744.1582322789826@mail.yahoo.com> Hi August, Ganging multiple units gets pretty unworkable at a certain point. I actually have a friend here in Colorado who had Tesla engineered in on a 9 power wall system. They backed out and said they wouldn't support it, due to potential instability.  (Also, I'm working primarily with Blue Planet Energy these days, so really looking for the missing inverter piece). Thanks!  -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 On Friday, February 21, 2020, 02:52:49 PM MST, August Goers wrote: The Tesla Powerwall system has worked well for us, and be configured up in the 50 kW + range. We've installed several 4-Powerwall systems totalling 20 kW / 54 kWh. In order to get to 50 kW battery inverter capacity, you'd need 10 Powerwalls. Now you can do multiple Gateways on site, so could conceivably do 20 + Powerwalls on a single site. AugustLuminalt On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 11:47 AM Jeff Clearwater wrote: All of my SMA Sunny Island Sunny Boy AC coupled systems greater than 12 KW have worked flawlessly and delivered reliable power and good monitoring for years.  Less excited about my Schneider and Outback systems due to callbacks and hassles.  a bit more expensive but worth it IMHO. Hope that helps! Jeff wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 9:41 AM: Hi friends, I keep running across opportunities with 50KW-300KW peak load requirements, on split phase services. Big homes, agriculture etc.  Outback, Schneider, SMA can all gang/stack into the 30-50KW range, but north of there, I am not finding many (any?) options?  Just found Aims Power 50 KW split phase unit with claims of higher power offerings by special order. Even the 50KW unit is $20K, so quite spendy. Any experience with these guys? 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO 220/230/240 Vac | | | | | | | | | | | 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO ... 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc Split Phase 220/230/240 | | | Thanks for any input!  -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073on this list since the 90's _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hathasolar at yahoo.com Fri Feb 21 17:02:19 2020 From: hathasolar at yahoo.com (wes kennedy) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 22:02:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Power Split phase inverter/chargers In-Reply-To: References: <532147486.4584070.1582306877848.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <532147486.4584070.1582306877848@mail.yahoo.com> <6afcfd20-dcdc-faef-e43f-0cf4df4c1468@villagepowerdesign.com> <813305129.4699128.1582321055999@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <387499599.4706753.1582322539971@mail.yahoo.com> In general, both. This ag opportunity is to load shift out of TOU zone, but wants resiliency too.  -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 On Friday, February 21, 2020, 02:56:23 PM MST, Harry Mahon wrote: Wes – Indeed, max Sunny Island 240VAC cluster is 4 units, so 23kW max BATTERY power.   Limit of roughly 27kW of PV (4x 120V x 56A relay limit = 26,880W) with that cluster if grid-tied with backfeed, so around 50kW max daytime load offset per cluster.  That may help if peak loads are always daytime?   Are you trying to take these systems off-grid, or just reduce peak load?   Best regards – Mike   SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile:   +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com   Solar Academy: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en.html   SMA America Solar Academy webinars: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en/courses.html Choose "United States"          This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you.   From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of wes kennedy Sent: Friday, February 21, 2020 2:38 PM To: RE-wrenches ; Jeff Clearwater Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High Power Split phase inverter/chargers   Hi Jeff,   I think the biggest split phase sunny island system is 4 units, so that's 24KW.    What do you do for larger systems? Segment the loads? Not always very practical.    This latest opportunity is for an agricultural building that peaks at 75KW.        -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073     On Friday, February 21, 2020, 12:47:39 PM MST, Jeff Clearwater wrote:     All of my SMA Sunny Island Sunny Boy AC coupled systems greater than 12 KW have worked flawlessly and delivered reliable power and good monitoring for years.  Less excited about my Schneider and Outback systems due to callbacks and hassles.  a bit more expensive but worth it IMHO. Hope that helps! Jeff wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 9:41 AM: Hi friends,   I keep running across opportunities with 50KW-300KW peak load requirements, on split phase services. Big homes, agriculture etc.    Outback, Schneider, SMA can all gang/stack into the 30-50KW range, but north of there, I am not finding many (any?) options?    Just found Aims Power 50 KW split phase unit with claims of higher power offerings by special order. Even the 50KW unit is $20K, so quite spendy. Any experience with these guys?  50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO 220/230/240 Vac   | | | | | | | | | | | 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO ... 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc Split Phase 220/230/240 | | |     Thanks for any input!    -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 on this list since the 90's _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance   List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org   Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org   List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html   List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm   Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org     -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 808 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16634 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Fri Feb 21 17:09:29 2020 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 22:09:29 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Power Split phase inverter/chargers In-Reply-To: <813305129.4699128.1582321055999@mail.yahoo.com> References: <532147486.4584070.1582306877848.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <532147486.4584070.1582306877848@mail.yahoo.com> <6afcfd20-dcdc-faef-e43f-0cf4df4c1468@villagepowerdesign.com> <813305129.4699128.1582321055999@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Wes & all – I want to clarify my prior post If off-grid, the rule of thumb is no more than 2W PV per W of Sunny Island. So that would be up to 46kW PV for 23kW SI capacity – there is no concern of backfeeding the SI relay when off grid, even with generator. But if grid tied, the relay limit comes into play, and the 26.9kW PV size limit is correct. But to clarify, when grid-tied the SI does not discharge battery to meet load, it lets the grid do that along with PV. Not built for peak shaving! When this setup is in backup mode, then it will provide battery power along with PV to offset load. So it does really depend if this would be an offgrid setup or if the goal is peak shaving for a grid-tied system. Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en.html SMA America Solar Academy webinars: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en/courses.html Choose "United States" [cid:image001.jpg at 01D5E8C8.E6E8FE30][cid:image002.jpg at 01D5E8C8.E6E8FE30] [cid:image003.jpg at 01D5E8C8.E6E8FE30] [Linkedin Logo] [cid:image005.jpg at 01D5E8C8.E6E8FE30] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] [cid:image007.jpg at 01D5E8C8.E6E8FE30] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of wes kennedy Sent: Friday, February 21, 2020 2:38 PM To: RE-wrenches ; Jeff Clearwater Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High Power Split phase inverter/chargers Hi Jeff, I think the biggest split phase sunny island system is 4 units, so that's 24KW. What do you do for larger systems? Segment the loads? Not always very practical. This latest opportunity is for an agricultural building that peaks at 75KW. -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 On Friday, February 21, 2020, 12:47:39 PM MST, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: All of my SMA Sunny Island Sunny Boy AC coupled systems greater than 12 KW have worked flawlessly and delivered reliable power and good monitoring for years. Less excited about my Schneider and Outback systems due to callbacks and hassles. a bit more expensive but worth it IMHO. Hope that helps! Jeff wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 9:41 AM: Hi friends, I keep running across opportunities with 50KW-300KW peak load requirements, on split phase services. Big homes, agriculture etc. Outback, Schneider, SMA can all gang/stack into the 30-50KW range, but north of there, I am not finding many (any?) options? Just found Aims Power 50 KW split phase unit with claims of higher power offerings by special order. Even the 50KW unit is $20K, so quite spendy. Any experience with these guys? 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO 220/230/240 Vac 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO ... 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc Split Phase 220/230/240 Thanks for any input! -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 on this list since the 90's _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 428 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 428 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 717 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 731 bytes Desc: image004.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 480 bytes Desc: image005.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 808 bytes Desc: image006.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16634 bytes Desc: image007.jpg URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Sat Feb 22 21:05:04 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2020 18:05:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Power Split phase inverter/chargers In-Reply-To: <813305129.4699128.1582321055999@mail.yahoo.com> References: <532147486.4584070.1582306877848.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <532147486.4584070.1582306877848@mail.yahoo.com> <6afcfd20-dcdc-faef-e43f-0cf4df4c1468@villagepowerdesign.com> <813305129.4699128.1582321055999@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <965e61ce-54fa-babb-758a-c9677da03f8d@villagepowerdesign.com> Ahh you're right all our 120/240 volt systems are less than 24 KW.  I was thinking of 230 V 50hz systems with multi-cluster boxes. How large can the Sol-Ark be stacked to?  Anyone with large Sol-Ark system experience? I hear Mornignstar and MidNite are working on surge capable off-grid inverters.  Anyone have a insight as to their KW goals? Best, Jeff wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 1:37 PM: > Hi Jeff, > > I think the biggest split phase sunny island system is 4 units, so > that's 24KW. > > What do you do for larger systems? Segment the loads? Not always very > practical. > > This latest opportunity is for an agricultural building that peaks at > 75KW. > > > > -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 > > > On Friday, February 21, 2020, 12:47:39 PM MST, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > > > All of my SMA Sunny Island Sunny Boy AC coupled systems greater than > 12 KW have worked flawlessly and delivered reliable power and good > monitoring for years.  Less excited about my Schneider and Outback > systems due to callbacks and hassles.  a bit more expensive but worth > it IMHO. > > Hope that helps! > > Jeff > > wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 9:41 AM: > Hi friends, > > I keep running across opportunities with 50KW-300KW peak load > requirements, on split phase services. Big homes, agriculture etc. > > Outback, Schneider, SMA can all gang/stack into the 30-50KW range, but > north of there, I am not finding many (any?) options? > > Just found Aims Power 50 KW split phase unit with claims of higher > power offerings by special order. Even the 50KW unit is $20K, so quite > spendy. Any experience with these guys? > 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc > TO 220/230/240 Vac > > > > > > > > > > 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 > Vdc TO ... > > 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc > Split Phase 220/230/240 > > > > > Thanks for any input! > > -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 > on this list since the 90's > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat Feb 22 21:56:26 2020 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2020 20:56:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Power Split phase inverter/chargers Message-ID:  Jeff, according to Midnite’s website, their B-17 inverter can be up to 40 kW in 2 kW increments. Allan >> On Feb 22, 2020, at 8:05 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >  Ahh you're right all our 120/240 volt systems are less than 24 KW. I was thinking of 230 V 50hz systems with multi-cluster boxes. > > How large can the Sol-Ark be stacked to? Anyone with large Sol-Ark system experience? > > I hear Mornignstar and MidNite are working on surge capable off-grid inverters. Anyone have a insight as to their KW goals? > > Best, > > Jeff > > wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 1:37 PM: > >> Hi Jeff, >> >> I think the biggest split phase sunny island system is 4 units, so that's 24KW. >> >> What do you do for larger systems? Segment the loads? Not always very practical. >> >> This latest opportunity is for an agricultural building that peaks at 75KW. >> >> >> >> -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 >> >> >> On Friday, February 21, 2020, 12:47:39 PM MST, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >> >> >> All of my SMA Sunny Island Sunny Boy AC coupled systems greater than 12 KW have worked flawlessly and delivered reliable power and good monitoring for years. Less excited about my Schneider and Outback systems due to callbacks and hassles. a bit more expensive but worth it IMHO. >> >> Hope that helps! >> >> Jeff >> >> wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 9:41 AM: >> >> Hi friends, >> >> I keep running across opportunities with 50KW-300KW peak load requirements, on split phase services. Big homes, agriculture etc. >> >> Outback, Schneider, SMA can all gang/stack into the 30-50KW range, but north of there, I am not finding many (any?) options? >> >> Just found Aims Power 50 KW split phase unit with claims of higher power offerings by special order. Even the 50KW unit is $20K, so quite spendy. Any experience with these guys? >> 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO 220/230/240 Vac >> >> >> >> >> 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO ... >> 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc Split Phase 220/230/240 >> >> >> Thanks for any input! >> >> -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 >> on this list since the 90's >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -- >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> linkedin >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> cell - 413-559-9763 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat Feb 22 21:55:50 2020 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2020 20:55:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Power Split phase inverter/chargers In-Reply-To: <965e61ce-54fa-babb-758a-c9677da03f8d@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <965e61ce-54fa-babb-758a-c9677da03f8d@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Jeff, according to Midnite’s website, their B-17 inverter can be up to 40 kW in 2 kW increments. Allan > On Feb 22, 2020, at 8:05 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > >  Ahh you're right all our 120/240 volt systems are less than 24 KW. I was thinking of 230 V 50hz systems with multi-cluster boxes. > > How large can the Sol-Ark be stacked to? Anyone with large Sol-Ark system experience? > > I hear Mornignstar and MidNite are working on surge capable off-grid inverters. Anyone have a insight as to their KW goals? > > Best, > > Jeff > > wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 1:37 PM: > >> Hi Jeff, >> >> I think the biggest split phase sunny island system is 4 units, so that's 24KW. >> >> What do you do for larger systems? Segment the loads? Not always very practical. >> >> This latest opportunity is for an agricultural building that peaks at 75KW. >> >> >> >> -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 >> >> >>> On Friday, February 21, 2020, 12:47:39 PM MST, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >>> >>> >>> All of my SMA Sunny Island Sunny Boy AC coupled systems greater than 12 KW have worked flawlessly and delivered reliable power and good monitoring for years. Less excited about my Schneider and Outback systems due to callbacks and hassles. a bit more expensive but worth it IMHO. >>> >>> Hope that helps! >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 9:41 AM: >> >> Hi friends, >> >> I keep running across opportunities with 50KW-300KW peak load requirements, on split phase services. Big homes, agriculture etc. >> >> Outback, Schneider, SMA can all gang/stack into the 30-50KW range, but north of there, I am not finding many (any?) options? >> >> Just found Aims Power 50 KW split phase unit with claims of higher power offerings by special order. Even the 50KW unit is $20K, so quite spendy. Any experience with these guys? >> 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO 220/230/240 Vac >> >> >> >> >> 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO ... >> 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc Split Phase 220/230/240 >> >> >> Thanks for any input! >> >> -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 >> on this list since the 90's >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -- >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> linkedin >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> cell - 413-559-9763 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sat Feb 22 22:22:21 2020 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2020 19:22:21 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Power Split phase inverter/chargers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62a7a4ba-64f4-f6d0-e3dd-0700c0fc05a6@psln.com> ...and we were told at Intersolar 2.5 years ago that the B17 was coming....still waiting. Bill On 2/22/2020 6:56 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >  > Jeff, according to Midnite’s website, their B-17 inverter can be up to > 40 kW in 2 kW increments. >  Allan > >> On Feb 22, 2020, at 8:05 PM, Jeff Clearwater >> wrote: >> >>  Ahh you're right all our 120/240 volt systems are less than 24 KW.  >> I was thinking of 230 V 50hz systems with multi-cluster boxes. >> >> How large can the Sol-Ark be stacked to?  Anyone with large Sol-Ark >> system experience? >> >> I hear Mornignstar and MidNite are working on surge capable off-grid >> inverters.  Anyone have a insight as to their KW goals? >> >> Best, >> >> Jeff >> >> wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 1:37 PM: >> >>> Hi Jeff, >>> >>> I think the biggest split phase sunny island system is 4 units, so >>> that's 24KW. >>> >>> What do you do for larger systems? Segment the loads? Not always >>> very practical. >>> >>> This latest opportunity is for an agricultural building that peaks >>> at 75KW. >>> >>> >>> >>> -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 >>> >>> >>> On Friday, February 21, 2020, 12:47:39 PM MST, Jeff Clearwater >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> All of my SMA Sunny Island Sunny Boy AC coupled systems greater than >>> 12 KW have worked flawlessly and delivered reliable power and good >>> monitoring for years.  Less excited about my Schneider and Outback >>> systems due to callbacks and hassles.  a bit more expensive but >>> worth it IMHO. >>> >>> Hope that helps! >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 9:41 AM: >>> Hi friends, >>> >>> I keep running across opportunities with 50KW-300KW peak load >>> requirements, on split phase services. Big homes, agriculture etc. >>> >>> Outback, Schneider, SMA can all gang/stack into the 30-50KW range, >>> but north of there, I am not finding many (any?) options? >>> >>> Just found Aims Power 50 KW split phase unit with claims of higher >>> power offerings by special order. Even the 50KW unit is $20K, so >>> quite spendy. Any experience with these guys? >>> 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc >>> TO 220/230/240 Vac >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 >>> Vdc TO ... >>> >>> 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc >>> Split Phase 220/230/240 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for any input! >>> >>> -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 >>> on this list since the 90's >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> Jeff Clearwater >>> Village Power Design >>> linkedin >>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> >> -- >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> linkedin >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> cell - 413-559-9763 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Sun Feb 23 05:23:19 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2020 02:23:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Power Split phase inverter/chargers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1d0022e8-72dc-023f-e243-04f8433edf8f@villagepowerdesign.com> The Sol-Ark manual indicates 240 Volt stacking to 8 units (9 units for 208V).  They list the "12KW" off-grid output as 8 KWs each.  So 64 KWs. anybody stacked a signficant number of them yet? Looking forward to hearing feedback from experienced installers. Best, Jeff Allan Sindelar wrote on 2/22/20 6:56 PM: >  > Jeff, according to Midnite’s website, their B-17 inverter can be up to > 40 kW in 2 kW increments. >  Allan > >> On Feb 22, 2020, at 8:05 PM, Jeff Clearwater >> wrote: >> >>  Ahh you're right all our 120/240 volt systems are less than 24 KW.  >> I was thinking of 230 V 50hz systems with multi-cluster boxes. >> >> How large can the Sol-Ark be stacked to?  Anyone with large Sol-Ark >> system experience? >> >> I hear Mornignstar and MidNite are working on surge capable off-grid >> inverters.  Anyone have a insight as to their KW goals? >> >> Best, >> >> Jeff >> >> wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 1:37 PM: >> >>> Hi Jeff, >>> >>> I think the biggest split phase sunny island system is 4 units, so >>> that's 24KW. >>> >>> What do you do for larger systems? Segment the loads? Not always >>> very practical. >>> >>> This latest opportunity is for an agricultural building that peaks >>> at 75KW. >>> >>> >>> >>> -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 >>> >>> >>> On Friday, February 21, 2020, 12:47:39 PM MST, Jeff Clearwater >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> All of my SMA Sunny Island Sunny Boy AC coupled systems greater than >>> 12 KW have worked flawlessly and delivered reliable power and good >>> monitoring for years.  Less excited about my Schneider and Outback >>> systems due to callbacks and hassles.  a bit more expensive but >>> worth it IMHO. >>> >>> Hope that helps! >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 9:41 AM: >>> Hi friends, >>> >>> I keep running across opportunities with 50KW-300KW peak load >>> requirements, on split phase services. Big homes, agriculture etc. >>> >>> Outback, Schneider, SMA can all gang/stack into the 30-50KW range, >>> but north of there, I am not finding many (any?) options? >>> >>> Just found Aims Power 50 KW split phase unit with claims of higher >>> power offerings by special order. Even the 50KW unit is $20K, so >>> quite spendy. Any experience with these guys? >>> 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc >>> TO 220/230/240 Vac >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 >>> Vdc TO ... >>> >>> 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc >>> Split Phase 220/230/240 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for any input! >>> >>> -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 >>> on this list since the 90's >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> Jeff Clearwater >>> Village Power Design >>> linkedin >>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> >> -- >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> linkedin >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> cell - 413-559-9763 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Feb 23 09:42:33 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2020 07:42:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Power Split phase inverter/chargers In-Reply-To: <1d0022e8-72dc-023f-e243-04f8433edf8f@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <1d0022e8-72dc-023f-e243-04f8433edf8f@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <96065DDF-B983-4FD2-8A3F-D79219489429@gmail.com> People might also look at Victron inverters. Jay Peltz Power. > On Feb 23, 2020, at 3:23 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > >  The Sol-Ark manual indicates 240 Volt stacking to 8 units (9 units for 208V). They list the "12KW" off-grid output as 8 KWs each. So 64 KWs. > > anybody stacked a signficant number of them yet? > > Looking forward to hearing feedback from experienced installers. > > Best, > > Jeff > > > Allan Sindelar wrote on 2/22/20 6:56 PM: > >>  >> Jeff, according to Midnite’s website, their B-17 inverter can be up to 40 kW in 2 kW increments. >> Allan >> >>> On Feb 22, 2020, at 8:05 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >>> >>>  Ahh you're right all our 120/240 volt systems are less than 24 KW. I was thinking of 230 V 50hz systems with multi-cluster boxes. >>> >>> How large can the Sol-Ark be stacked to? Anyone with large Sol-Ark system experience? >>> >>> I hear Mornignstar and MidNite are working on surge capable off-grid inverters. Anyone have a insight as to their KW goals? >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 1:37 PM: >>> >>>> Hi Jeff, >>>> >>>> I think the biggest split phase sunny island system is 4 units, so that's 24KW. >>>> >>>> What do you do for larger systems? Segment the loads? Not always very practical. >>>> >>>> This latest opportunity is for an agricultural building that peaks at 75KW. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Friday, February 21, 2020, 12:47:39 PM MST, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> All of my SMA Sunny Island Sunny Boy AC coupled systems greater than 12 KW have worked flawlessly and delivered reliable power and good monitoring for years. Less excited about my Schneider and Outback systems due to callbacks and hassles. a bit more expensive but worth it IMHO. >>>> >>>> Hope that helps! >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 9:41 AM: >>>> Hi friends, >>>> >>>> I keep running across opportunities with 50KW-300KW peak load requirements, on split phase services. Big homes, agriculture etc. >>>> >>>> Outback, Schneider, SMA can all gang/stack into the 30-50KW range, but north of there, I am not finding many (any?) options? >>>> >>>> Just found Aims Power 50 KW split phase unit with claims of higher power offerings by special order. Even the 50KW unit is $20K, so quite spendy. Any experience with these guys? >>>> 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO 220/230/240 Vac >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO ... >>>> 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc Split Phase 220/230/240 >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for any input! >>>> >>>> -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 >>>> on this list since the 90's >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>> Jeff Clearwater >>>> Village Power Design >>>> linkedin >>>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> Jeff Clearwater >>> Village Power Design >>> linkedin >>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Sun Feb 23 12:02:51 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2020 09:02:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Power Split phase inverter/chargers In-Reply-To: <96065DDF-B983-4FD2-8A3F-D79219489429@gmail.com> References: <1d0022e8-72dc-023f-e243-04f8433edf8f@villagepowerdesign.com> <96065DDF-B983-4FD2-8A3F-D79219489429@gmail.com> Message-ID: <212A7610-C597-4307-B906-D91B0E9FE4FE@villagepowerdesign.com> The Victron Quattro (120/240) is stackable to 6 units for 30 KW of split phase or 48 KW of 240V and 144KW of 3 phase if I’m reading the spec sheets correctly. Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 23, 2020, at 6:42 AM, Jay wrote: > > People might also look at Victron inverters. > > Jay > Peltz Power. > >> On Feb 23, 2020, at 3:23 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >> >>  The Sol-Ark manual indicates 240 Volt stacking to 8 units (9 units for 208V). They list the "12KW" off-grid output as 8 KWs each. So 64 KWs. >> >> anybody stacked a signficant number of them yet? >> >> Looking forward to hearing feedback from experienced installers. >> >> Best, >> >> Jeff >> >> >> Allan Sindelar wrote on 2/22/20 6:56 PM: >> >>>  >>> Jeff, according to Midnite’s website, their B-17 inverter can be up to 40 kW in 2 kW increments. >>> Allan >>> >>>> On Feb 22, 2020, at 8:05 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >>>> >>>>  Ahh you're right all our 120/240 volt systems are less than 24 KW. I was thinking of 230 V 50hz systems with multi-cluster boxes. >>>> >>>> How large can the Sol-Ark be stacked to? Anyone with large Sol-Ark system experience? >>>> >>>> I hear Mornignstar and MidNite are working on surge capable off-grid inverters. Anyone have a insight as to their KW goals? >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 1:37 PM: >>>> >>>>> Hi Jeff, >>>>> >>>>> I think the biggest split phase sunny island system is 4 units, so that's 24KW. >>>>> >>>>> What do you do for larger systems? Segment the loads? Not always very practical. >>>>> >>>>> This latest opportunity is for an agricultural building that peaks at 75KW. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Friday, February 21, 2020, 12:47:39 PM MST, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> All of my SMA Sunny Island Sunny Boy AC coupled systems greater than 12 KW have worked flawlessly and delivered reliable power and good monitoring for years. Less excited about my Schneider and Outback systems due to callbacks and hassles. a bit more expensive but worth it IMHO. >>>>> >>>>> Hope that helps! >>>>> >>>>> Jeff >>>>> >>>>> wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 9:41 AM: >>>>> Hi friends, >>>>> >>>>> I keep running across opportunities with 50KW-300KW peak load requirements, on split phase services. Big homes, agriculture etc. >>>>> >>>>> Outback, Schneider, SMA can all gang/stack into the 30-50KW range, but north of there, I am not finding many (any?) options? >>>>> >>>>> Just found Aims Power 50 KW split phase unit with claims of higher power offerings by special order. Even the 50KW unit is $20K, so quite spendy. Any experience with these guys? >>>>> 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO 220/230/240 Vac >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO ... >>>>> 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc Split Phase 220/230/240 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for any input! >>>>> >>>>> -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 >>>>> on this list since the 90's >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>>> Jeff Clearwater >>>>> Village Power Design >>>>> linkedin >>>>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>>>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>> Jeff Clearwater >>>> Village Power Design >>>> linkedin >>>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >> >> -- >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> linkedin >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> cell - 413-559-9763 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Feb 23 14:54:21 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2020 14:54:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Power Split phase inverter/chargers In-Reply-To: <212A7610-C597-4307-B906-D91B0E9FE4FE@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <1d0022e8-72dc-023f-e243-04f8433edf8f@villagepowerdesign.com> <96065DDF-B983-4FD2-8A3F-D79219489429@gmail.com> <212A7610-C597-4307-B906-D91B0E9FE4FE@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: You should be able to go to 32kW with four Outback Radians. I agree, there are not enough 32-100kW split phase inverter system options. With LiPO batteries becoming popular, a high integrated charging capacity is desirable in larger battery capacity scenarios, especially if trying to maximize generator efficiency through reduced run time. On Sun, Feb 23, 2020 at 12:03 PM Jeff Clearwater < jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: > The Victron Quattro (120/240) is stackable to 6 units for 30 KW of split > phase or 48 KW of 240V and 144KW of 3 phase if I’m reading the spec sheets > correctly. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 23, 2020, at 6:42 AM, Jay wrote: > > People might also look at Victron inverters. > > Jay > Peltz Power. > > On Feb 23, 2020, at 3:23 AM, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > >  The Sol-Ark manual indicates 240 Volt stacking to 8 units (9 units for > 208V). They list the "12KW" off-grid output as 8 KWs each. So 64 KWs. > > anybody stacked a signficant number of them yet? > > Looking forward to hearing feedback from experienced installers. > > Best, > > Jeff > > > Allan Sindelar wrote on 2/22/20 6:56 PM: > >  > Jeff, according to Midnite’s website, their B-17 inverter can be up to 40 > kW in 2 kW increments. > Allan > > On Feb 22, 2020, at 8:05 PM, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > >  Ahh you're right all our 120/240 volt systems are less than 24 KW. I > was thinking of 230 V 50hz systems with multi-cluster boxes. > > How large can the Sol-Ark be stacked to? Anyone with large Sol-Ark system > experience? > > I hear Mornignstar and MidNite are working on surge capable off-grid > inverters. Anyone have a insight as to their KW goals? > > Best, > > Jeff > > wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 1:37 PM: > > Hi Jeff, > > I think the biggest split phase sunny island system is 4 units, so that's > 24KW. > > What do you do for larger systems? Segment the loads? Not always very > practical. > > This latest opportunity is for an agricultural building that peaks at > 75KW. > > > > -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 > > > On Friday, February 21, 2020, 12:47:39 PM MST, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > > > All of my SMA Sunny Island Sunny Boy AC coupled systems greater than 12 KW > have worked flawlessly and delivered reliable power and good monitoring for > years. Less excited about my Schneider and Outback systems due to > callbacks and hassles. a bit more expensive but worth it IMHO. > > Hope that helps! > > Jeff > > wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 9:41 AM: > Hi friends, > > I keep running across opportunities with 50KW-300KW peak load > requirements, on split phase services. Big homes, agriculture etc. > > Outback, Schneider, SMA can all gang/stack into the 30-50KW range, but > north of there, I am not finding many (any?) options? > > Just found Aims Power 50 KW split phase unit with claims of higher power > offerings by special order. Even the 50KW unit is $20K, so quite spendy. > Any experience with these guys? > 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO > 220/230/240 Vac > > > > > > 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO ... > > 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc Split > Phase 220/230/240 > > > > > Thanks for any input! > > -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 > on this list since the 90's > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > > www.villagepowerdesign.com > > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > > www.villagepowerdesign.com > > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > > www.villagepowerdesign.com > > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sun Feb 23 21:40:31 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2020 19:40:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Lithium 100 kWh-200kWh Message-ID: Hey wrenches, What are you using for Lithium in the 100 kWh-200 kWh range? At what bank voltage? With what inverters? We are getting more and more inquiries in that range. Thanks! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Mon Feb 24 09:09:08 2020 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 09:09:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Lithium 100 kWh-200kWh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <240f7910e6f001d87500f2395d7cd85f.squirrel@mail.otelco.net> We have been using Fortress 18.5 kWh, 48 volt battery banks with SolArk inverters. Six and six work well for a 100 kW system. With SolArk (and really, all batteries) it is highly recommended to use busbars to parallel all battery connections. This also makes it easy to double the battery size. Daryl > Hey wrenches, > > What are you using for Lithium in the 100 kWh-200 kWh range? At what bank > voltage? With what inverters? > > We are getting more and more inquiries in that range. > > Thanks! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Feb 24 11:35:16 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 08:35:16 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Lithium 100 kWh-200kWh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac Talk to blue planet energy, they have a 64 Kwh stackable to well over a meg using Lithium ion phosphate, very stable, they include a control system, inverter and help in design. Contact me off list if you need contact information. Jerry On Sun, Feb 23, 2020, 6:40 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hey wrenches, > > What are you using for Lithium in the 100 kWh-200 kWh range? At what bank > voltage? With what inverters? > > We are getting more and more inquiries in that range. > > Thanks! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Feb 24 17:45:10 2020 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:45:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Lithium 100 kWh-200kWh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18227E4F-A293-4E5A-AA5F-B2575F5F38AC@starlightsolar.com> Hello Mac, We offer up to 400 kWh energy storage, you choose the DC voltage up to 600Vdc, with Elite GBS packages. Our batteries are certified with UL1642 and UL1973 standards. The BMS system is certified for UL 2580, Recognized component for electric vehicles but I’m not sure that will transfer to use in off grid power systems. Please reply off list if you need more info. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 sales at starlightsolar.com On Feb 23, 2020, at 7:40 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: Hey wrenches, What are you using for Lithium in the 100 kWh-200 kWh range? At what bank voltage? With what inverters? We are getting more and more inquiries in that range. Thanks! -- Mac Lewis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 1380 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Feb 25 11:21:37 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 08:21:37 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Web portal Insight2 not making remote changes for some. Message-ID: <70d09588b9e000ecc48495ca2b5e8f37@127.0.0.1> Hi Wrenches, Some who have been experiencing the inability to remotely control with Insight2 should know that a fix is on it's way. I got this yesterday. There was also a Gateway and mobile App update on the Schneider site. You may want to try it again soon and let me know please. Thx! " Hi Dave, We are working on a new firmware which will help to troubleshoot this issue. We have already identified a cloud side issue which is being implemented as we speak and it should address a bunch of failures. If you want, you can post a note on Wrenches and tell them that your "inside contact" has confirmed a fix is being worked on 😊 We should have something ready in a week or 2. Trevor. TREVOR MONK Technical Manager - Embedded Software Solar Business -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Tue Feb 25 13:31:24 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 10:31:24 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AIMS inverter Message-ID: <7414914b-f9a7-6222-1149-262a8a02d99d@coveoregon.com> Last week I was called to examine a solar power system installed by an Idaho electrical contractor. According to the owner of this system, this contractor has built several similar systems in the area. The owner's complaint was that the AGM batteries kept failing. The work was done without permits. A non-UL listed AIMS inverter was installed. The inverter was setup to operate as a whole house backup system in battery priority mode. That was the only way for the solar system to do any work considering that the inverter can't be used for net metering. Trouble is the battery priority mode on the AIMS inverter discharges the batteries down to 42 volts before switching back to utility power to recharge. With an undersized solar system the batteries were being deeply cycled nearly every day, so of course the batteries weren't lasting worth a darn. Please don't set these inverters up in battery priority mode; it'll do nothing except ruin batteries. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Feb 25 13:58:14 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 13:58:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Web portal Insight2 not making remote changes for some. In-Reply-To: <70d09588b9e000ecc48495ca2b5e8f37@127.0.0.1> References: <70d09588b9e000ecc48495ca2b5e8f37@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Dave, Do these problems encompass having sites that previously were configured and operating on Insight2, but for at least the last month or 2 have shown up on the home page, but either show no connectivity or no devices? This has been my experience and it is a major issue since I sold my clients on the remote monitoring and configuration capability of the XW. I have spoken with tech support several times with no resolution... Howie On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 11:21 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > Some who have been experiencing the inability to remotely control with > Insight2 should know that a fix is on it's way. I got this yesterday. There > was also a Gateway and mobile App update on the Schneider site. You may > want to try it again soon and let me know please. Thx! > > " > > Hi Dave, > > We are working on a new firmware which will help to troubleshoot this > issue. We have already identified a cloud side issue which is being > implemented as we speak and it should address a bunch of failures. > > If you want, you can post a note on Wrenches and tell them that your > "inside contact" has confirmed a fix is being worked on 😊 > > We should have something ready in a week or 2. > > > > Trevor. > > *Trevor Monk* > > Technical Manager - Embedded Software > Solar Business > > > -- > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sandra.Herrera at se.com Tue Feb 25 14:24:37 2020 From: Sandra.Herrera at se.com (Sandra Herrera) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 19:24:37 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Web portal Insight2 not making remote changes for some. In-Reply-To: References: <70d09588b9e000ecc48495ca2b5e8f37@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Howie, The “no communication” issues on Insight2 was solved when we update to Gateway firmware 1.05, and in parallel, we updated the Insight2 platform. The issue Dave is mentioning is on making programming changes. If you still have a site (with the latest firmware on the Gateway) but still no communication. Please contact me off-list. Sandra Herrera Sandra.herrera at se.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 10:58 AM To: Dave Angelini ; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Web portal Insight2 not making remote changes for some. [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ Dave, Do these problems encompass having sites that previously were configured and operating on Insight2, but for at least the last month or 2 have shown up on the home page, but either show no connectivity or no devices? This has been my experience and it is a major issue since I sold my clients on the remote monitoring and configuration capability of the XW. I have spoken with tech support several times with no resolution... Howie On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 11:21 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > wrote: Hi Wrenches, Some who have been experiencing the inability to remotely control with Insight2 should know that a fix is on it's way. I got this yesterday. There was also a Gateway and mobile App update on the Schneider site. You may want to try it again soon and let me know please. Thx! " Hi Dave, We are working on a new firmware which will help to troubleshoot this issue. We have already identified a cloud side issue which is being implemented as we speak and it should address a bunch of failures. If you want, you can post a note on Wrenches and tell them that your "inside contact" has confirmed a fix is being worked on 😊 We should have something ready in a week or 2. Trevor. Trevor Monk Technical Manager - Embedded Software Solar Business -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Tue Feb 25 14:19:24 2020 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 12:19:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solectria TL woes Message-ID: Wrenches, I have a couple of Solectria 36TLs at a small community solar site in CO that shut themselves down occasionally for what appears to be no reason. [image: image.png] Voltages and frequency are normal, firmware is updated, IR scan shows nothing irregular, and the other 2 inverters at the site (50TLs) are fine. It can happen under sunny or cloudy conditions. Solectria will RMA the inverters but before I go out and replace I'm curious if anyone has seen this behavior? Regards, Andrew Truitt www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in this message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 71945 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Feb 25 15:16:15 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 12:16:15 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solectria TL woes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Andrew What is the AC Voltage when this occurs, to much VAC will shut down the inverter. It also looks like you are clipping all the inverters during the mid day, is due to low temps or does this always happen. What is the DC MPPT voltage, is it at the upper limit. Jerry NABCEP PV inspector On Tue, Feb 25, 2020, 12:02 PM Andrew Truitt wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I have a couple of Solectria 36TLs at a small community solar site in CO > that shut themselves down occasionally for what appears to be no reason. > > [image: image.png] > > Voltages and frequency are normal, firmware is updated, IR scan shows > nothing irregular, and the other 2 inverters at the site (50TLs) are fine. > It can happen under sunny or cloudy conditions. Solectria will RMA the > inverters but before I go out and replace I'm curious if anyone has seen > this behavior? > > > Regards, > > Andrew Truitt > > www.dr.ventures > d: 202.486.7507 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 > Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 > > > > [image: Logo] > > The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient > specified in this message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part > of this message with any third party, without written consent of the > sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this > message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake > does not occur in the future. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 71945 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeff.irish at suncommon.com Tue Feb 25 15:55:53 2020 From: jeff.irish at suncommon.com (Jeff Irish, PE) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 15:55:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solectria TL woes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Andrew, I've seen this in multiple inverter systems when the AC voltage gets pushed outside the upper limit by the inverter output currents. One or two inverters will cycle on-off, those with the lowest setting or tolerance. Cause can be (1) high AC voltage from the utility to start with, and/or (2) high impedance looking into the grid from the inverters, usually from an undersized or loose service conductor. Jeff On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 3:16 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Andrew > What is the AC Voltage when this occurs, to much VAC will shut down the > inverter. It also looks like you are clipping all the inverters during the > mid day, is due to low temps or does this always happen. What is the DC > MPPT voltage, is it at the upper limit. > Jerry > NABCEP PV inspector > > On Tue, Feb 25, 2020, 12:02 PM Andrew Truitt wrote: > >> >> Wrenches, >> >> I have a couple of Solectria 36TLs at a small community solar site in CO >> that shut themselves down occasionally for what appears to be no reason. >> >> [image: image.png] >> >> Voltages and frequency are normal, firmware is updated, IR scan shows >> nothing irregular, and the other 2 inverters at the site (50TLs) are fine. >> It can happen under sunny or cloudy conditions. Solectria will RMA the >> inverters but before I go out and replace I'm curious if anyone has seen >> this behavior? >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Andrew Truitt >> >> www.dr.ventures >> d: 202.486.7507 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 >> Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 >> >> >> >> [image: Logo] >> >> The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient >> specified in this message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part >> of this message with any third party, without written consent of the >> sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this >> message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake >> does not occur in the future. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Jeff Irish, PE | Vice President SunCommon.com | Main: 845-876-3767 13 Hook Road, Rhinebeck, NY 12572 SunCommon believes that everyone has the right to a healthy environment and brighter future—and renewable energy is where it starts. Energy from the sun can power our lives and build vibrant communities. Our mission is to tear down barriers to clean energy and use our business as a force for good. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 71945 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Feb 25 16:02:10 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 16:02:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solectria TL woes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It sure looks like it could be an AC voltage issue. Around here the utility voltage is often high in the morning and then gets dragged down when loads in the neighborhood spike from air conditioning (yes, even in winter here in Florida). We see drop-outs (with other brand inverters) in the mid-morning as a result. Usually the utilities here will resolve it if you demonstrate the voltage is high, even if it's not out of their acceptable range. Jason Szumlanski On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 3:16 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Andrew > What is the AC Voltage when this occurs, to much VAC will shut down the > inverter. It also looks like you are clipping all the inverters during the > mid day, is due to low temps or does this always happen. What is the DC > MPPT voltage, is it at the upper limit. > Jerry > NABCEP PV inspector > > On Tue, Feb 25, 2020, 12:02 PM Andrew Truitt wrote: > >> >> Wrenches, >> >> I have a couple of Solectria 36TLs at a small community solar site in CO >> that shut themselves down occasionally for what appears to be no reason. >> >> [image: image.png] >> >> Voltages and frequency are normal, firmware is updated, IR scan shows >> nothing irregular, and the other 2 inverters at the site (50TLs) are fine. >> It can happen under sunny or cloudy conditions. Solectria will RMA the >> inverters but before I go out and replace I'm curious if anyone has seen >> this behavior? >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Andrew Truitt >> >> www.dr.ventures >> d: 202.486.7507 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 >> Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 >> >> >> >> >> [image: Logo] >> >> The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient >> specified in this message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part >> of this message with any third party, without written consent of the >> sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this >> message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake >> does not occur in the future. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 71945 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Feb 25 16:16:08 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 13:16:08 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Web portal Insight2 not making remote changes for some. In-Reply-To: References: <70d09588b9e000ecc48495ca2b5e8f37@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Concur with Sandra completely. All of my clients are having no problems with Insight2 as far as what Howie wrote. It has been very reliable for about a year now. The remote programming with Insight2 has had a few issues but it is on the sched to be fixed. Many are working fine but a few are not and that is what Trevor addressed in a troubleshooting tool. The Gateway can be remote programmed also and has had very few problems since beta testing. Even then it was solid. DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 19:24:37 +0000, Sandra Herrera wrote: Howie, The "no communication" issues on Insight2 was solved when we update to Gateway firmware 1.05, and in parallel, we updated the Insight2 platform. The issue Dave is mentioning is on making programming changes. If you still have a site (with the latest firmware on the Gateway) but still no communication. Please contact me off-list. Sandra Herrera Sandra.herrera at se.com FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Howie Michaelson SENT: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 10:58 AM TO: Dave Angelini ; RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Web portal Insight2 not making remote changes for some. [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ------------------------- Dave, Do these problems encompass having sites that previously were configured and operating on Insight2, but for at least the last month or 2 have shown up on the home page, but either show no connectivity or no devices? This has been my experience and it is a major issue since I sold my clients on the remote monitoring and configuration capability of the XW. I have spoken with tech support several times with no resolution... Howie On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 11:21 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Hi Wrenches, Some who have been experiencing the inability to remotely control with Insight2 should know that a fix is on it's way. I got this yesterday. There was also a Gateway and mobile App update on the Schneider site. You may want to try it again soon and let me know please. Thx! " Hi Dave, We are working on a new firmware which will help to troubleshoot this issue. We have already identified a cloud side issue which is being implemented as we speak and it should address a bunch of failures. If you want, you can post a note on Wrenches and tell them that your "inside contact" has confirmed a fix is being worked on 😊 We should have something ready in a week or 2. Trevor. TREVOR MONK Technical Manager - Embedded Software Solar Business -- DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "WE GO WHERE POWERLINES DON'T" E-MAIL TEXT 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [8] ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [4] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&data=02%7C01%7Csandra.herrera%40se.com%7Cbd2f96fef8ca4066a6ee08d7ba24b734%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C637182539162864360&sdata=uUg3ZHI6TJmQ%2BsMW1d96Etu%2B3qG2ZX6HRemg8unbHkY%3D&reserved=0 [6] https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&data=02%7C01%7Csandra.herrera%40se.com%7Cbd2f96fef8ca4066a6ee08d7ba24b734%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C637182539162864360&sdata=bZMpkbk%2BW4Ly3zuLhDlP%2F1%2BTmFzAJxonAqEppalweFQ%3D&reserved=0 [7] https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&data=02%7C01%7Csandra.herrera%40se.com%7Cbd2f96fef8ca4066a6ee08d7ba24b734%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C637182539162874360&sdata=BtKtGeiGRxSEVEZNYz4ZoBQghNFLfjWyFqba28%2FJ1o4%3D&reserved=0 [8] https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csandra.herrera%40se.com%7Cbd2f96fef8ca4066a6ee08d7ba24b734%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C637182539162884357&sdata=dKW3eug1fz%2B6P9z6Hj12xZU3U5hJpzSH%2BUj8OHUDpf4%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Tue Feb 25 16:49:47 2020 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 14:49:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solectria TL woes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm with you guys and we actually had a bad transformer bushing at this site initially which was causing exactly that issue. The site still runs high (498-508Vac nominal) but is well below the 528V default upper limit of the TLs, and the shut-offs are not correlated with higher AC voltages. Also the 50TLs, which have the same voltage input window and are connected at the same panel, never have an issue. The fact that Solectria is willing to RMA the units without much more information than what I've given here tells me that it may be a systemic issue with this run of inverters, right? Jerry, the inverters are loaded at a 1.18 ratio so minor clipping happens somewhat regularly. DC voltage never exceeds the 850V upper MPPT limit. Regards, Andrew Truitt www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in this message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 2:02 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > It sure looks like it could be an AC voltage issue. Around here the > utility voltage is often high in the morning and then gets dragged down > when loads in the neighborhood spike from air conditioning (yes, even in > winter here in Florida). We see drop-outs (with other brand inverters) in > the mid-morning as a result. Usually the utilities here will resolve it if > you demonstrate the voltage is high, even if it's not out of their > acceptable range. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 3:16 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Andrew >> What is the AC Voltage when this occurs, to much VAC will shut down the >> inverter. It also looks like you are clipping all the inverters during the >> mid day, is due to low temps or does this always happen. What is the DC >> MPPT voltage, is it at the upper limit. >> Jerry >> NABCEP PV inspector >> >> On Tue, Feb 25, 2020, 12:02 PM Andrew Truitt wrote: >> >>> >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> I have a couple of Solectria 36TLs at a small community solar site in CO >>> that shut themselves down occasionally for what appears to be no reason. >>> >>> [image: image.png] >>> >>> Voltages and frequency are normal, firmware is updated, IR scan shows >>> nothing irregular, and the other 2 inverters at the site (50TLs) are fine. >>> It can happen under sunny or cloudy conditions. Solectria will RMA the >>> inverters but before I go out and replace I'm curious if anyone has seen >>> this behavior? >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Andrew Truitt >>> >>> www.dr.ventures >>> d: 202.486.7507 >>> >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 >>> Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> [image: Logo] >>> >>> The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient >>> specified in this message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part >>> of this message with any third party, without written consent of the >>> sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this >>> message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake >>> does not occur in the future. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 71945 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Feb 27 17:25:41 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 15:25:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? Message-ID: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be disappointed with the Generac Ecogen.  Very high failure rate, and support is poor.  Service requires expensive on site service. Also the no load AC draw and programming setup is just not off grid ready at all.  I'm still not seeing any other great choices, though.  Here's some other possibilities: 1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with Honda motor.  Not the best choice especially for autostart, no propane, but at least they can take it in to the shop if it goes down. 2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather start issues? 3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model.  Overkill, expensive, but probably will last a really long time. 4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand.  Kohler used to be great, but now a days I'm not so sure. I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been giving other customers trouble.  Any new ideas on this age old problem? -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu Feb 27 17:53:09 2020 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:53:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? In-Reply-To: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> References: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> Message-ID: <8C10E776-83C9-4864-9ED7-3E3A743F7FF1@gmail.com> For small propane generators: Honda eu7000i w/propane conversion from GenConnex and 2 wire start kit from GenLine. I’ve installed a couple dozen. 4-8k hours life expectancy. Correct jet is a must for altitudes over 5.5k. Alternators are a bit weak so I install a NOKO that’s plugged into the generators own receptacle for extra on board charging. Small Diesel 7.5kw and up, that’s easy. Wrico International. I’ve got over a hundred out there. No standby power draw. Super simple. Bulletproof. The only issues I’ve seen are fuel supply related. 20k hours no problem. Open Frame, so some protection is needed. They are building 7.5kw and up propane generators now. I haven’t used one yet, but will when the right project comes around. Their product support is the best. Call them and you will speak to one of the principals. They can walk a layperson customer through just about anything I would be called on to service. The larger low RPM, water cooled propane generators aren’t without their problems. Kohler and Cummins/Onan have had problems within 2-3k hours. They just aren’t the same as 10 years ago. Many dozens of Multi Quips out there. They are good choice. Tech support response is generally slow. Michael > On Feb 27, 2020, at 2:25 PM, Ray wrote: > > I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be disappointed with the Generac Ecogen. Very high failure rate, and support is poor. Service requires expensive on site service. Also the no load AC draw and programming setup is just not off grid ready at all. I'm still not seeing any other great choices, though. Here's some other possibilities: > > 1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with Honda motor. Not the best choice especially for autostart, no propane, but at least they can take it in to the shop if it goes down. > > 2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather start issues? > > 3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model. Overkill, expensive, but probably will last a really long time. > > 4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand. Kohler used to be great, but now a days I'm not so sure. > > I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been giving other customers trouble. Any new ideas on this age old problem? > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From gpgridtie at gmail.com Thu Feb 27 18:02:18 2020 From: gpgridtie at gmail.com (Bob Maynard) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 15:02:18 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? In-Reply-To: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> References: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> Message-ID: Avoid Onan as well. Now a Cummins company with un-affordable field service only policy. On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 2:25 PM Ray wrote: > I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be > disappointed with the Generac Ecogen. Very high failure rate, and > support is poor. Service requires expensive on site service. Also the > no load AC draw and programming setup is just not off grid ready at > all. I'm still not seeing any other great choices, though. Here's some > other possibilities: > > 1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with Honda > motor. Not the best choice especially for autostart, no propane, but at > least they can take it in to the shop if it goes down. > > 2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather start > issues? > > 3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model. Overkill, expensive, > but probably will last a really long time. > > 4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand. Kohler used to be > great, but now a days I'm not so sure. > > I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been giving other > customers trouble. Any new ideas on this age old problem? > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Feb 27 18:06:02 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 15:06:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Offgrid_Generators=3F?= In-Reply-To: <8C10E776-83C9-4864-9ED7-3E3A743F7FF1@gmail.com> References: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> <8C10E776-83C9-4864-9ED7-3E3A743F7FF1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7091f7e50168a9616e55a58e40cc4a4c@127.0.0.1> The Honda EU7000i also has it's own remote start kit that plugs into a socket on the genset. I think it has a 140 foot cable. About as easy to install as there is. Incredible life and reliability. We do not need a genset here but many of my clients use these. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:53:09 -0800, Michael Morningstar wrote: > For small propane generators: Honda eu7000i w/propane conversion from > GenConnex and 2 wire start kit from GenLine. I’ve installed a couple dozen. > 4-8k hours life expectancy. Correct jet is a must for altitudes over 5.5k. > Alternators are a bit weak so I install a NOKO that’s plugged into the > generators own receptacle for extra on board charging. > > Small Diesel 7.5kw and up, that’s easy. Wrico International. I’ve got over > a hundred out there. No standby power draw. Super simple. Bulletproof. The > only issues I’ve seen are fuel supply related. 20k hours no problem. Open > Frame, so some protection is needed. They are building 7.5kw and up propane > generators now. I haven’t used one yet, but will when the right project > comes around. Their product support is the best. Call them and you will > speak to one of the principals. They can walk a layperson customer through > just about anything I would be called on to service. > > The larger low RPM, water cooled propane generators aren’t without their > problems. Kohler and Cummins/Onan have had problems within 2-3k hours. They > just aren’t the same as 10 years ago. > > Many dozens of Multi Quips out there. They are good choice. Tech support > response is generally slow. > > Michael > >> On Feb 27, 2020, at 2:25 PM, Ray wrote: >> >> I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be >> disappointed with the Generac Ecogen. Very high failure rate, and >> support is poor. Service requires expensive on site service. Also the no >> load AC draw and programming setup is just not off grid ready at all. >> I'm still not seeing any other great choices, though. Here's some other >> possibilities: >> >> 1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with Honda >> motor. Not the best choice especially for autostart, no propane, but at >> least they can take it in to the shop if it goes down. >> >> 2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather start >> issues? >> >> 3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model. Overkill, expensive, >> but probably will last a really long time. >> >> 4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand. Kohler used to be >> great, but now a days I'm not so sure. >> >> I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been giving other >> customers trouble. Any new ideas on this age old problem? >> >> -- >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 27 18:22:17 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 16:22:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? In-Reply-To: <7091f7e50168a9616e55a58e40cc4a4c@127.0.0.1> References: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> <8C10E776-83C9-4864-9ED7-3E3A743F7FF1@gmail.com> <7091f7e50168a9616e55a58e40cc4a4c@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: We have had pretty good luck with the 14 kW Kohler which has an off-grid warranty. Its not perfect but it seems solid. We have had a few people with near 5000 hours on them. The controller is a bit of an energy hog but its the best we've found that weighs all of these issues. On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 4:06 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > The Honda EU7000i also has it's own remote start kit that plugs into a > socket on the genset. I think it has a 140 foot cable. About as easy to > install as there is. Incredible life and reliability. We do not need a > genset here but many of my clients use these. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:53:09 -0800, Michael Morningstar > wrote: > > For small propane generators: Honda eu7000i w/propane conversion from > > GenConnex and 2 wire start kit from GenLine. I’ve installed a couple > dozen. > > 4-8k hours life expectancy. Correct jet is a must for altitudes over > 5.5k. > > Alternators are a bit weak so I install a NOKO that’s plugged into the > > generators own receptacle for extra on board charging. > > > > Small Diesel 7.5kw and up, that’s easy. Wrico International. I’ve got > over > > a hundred out there. No standby power draw. Super simple. Bulletproof. > The > > only issues I’ve seen are fuel supply related. 20k hours no problem. > Open > > Frame, so some protection is needed. They are building 7.5kw and up > propane > > generators now. I haven’t used one yet, but will when the right project > > comes around. Their product support is the best. Call them and you will > > speak to one of the principals. They can walk a layperson customer > through > > just about anything I would be called on to service. > > > > The larger low RPM, water cooled propane generators aren’t without their > > problems. Kohler and Cummins/Onan have had problems within 2-3k hours. > They > > just aren’t the same as 10 years ago. > > > > Many dozens of Multi Quips out there. They are good choice. Tech support > > response is generally slow. > > > > Michael > > > >> On Feb 27, 2020, at 2:25 PM, Ray wrote: > >> > >> I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be > >> disappointed with the Generac Ecogen. Very high failure rate, and > >> support is poor. Service requires expensive on site service. Also the > no > >> load AC draw and programming setup is just not off grid ready at all. > >> I'm still not seeing any other great choices, though. Here's some > other > >> possibilities: > >> > >> 1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with Honda > >> motor. Not the best choice especially for autostart, no propane, but > at > >> least they can take it in to the shop if it goes down. > >> > >> 2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather start > >> issues? > >> > >> 3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model. Overkill, expensive, > >> but probably will last a really long time. > >> > >> 4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand. Kohler used to be > >> great, but now a days I'm not so sure. > >> > >> I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been giving other > >> customers trouble. Any new ideas on this age old problem? > >> > >> -- > >> Ray Walters > >> Remote Solar > >> 303 505-8760 > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Feb 27 18:43:45 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 15:43:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? In-Reply-To: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> References: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray Look at Cummins, easy programming, it will require a battery charger for the starter, two wire auto start and great service Jerry On Thu, Feb 27, 2020, 2:25 PM Ray wrote: > I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be > disappointed with the Generac Ecogen. Very high failure rate, and > support is poor. Service requires expensive on site service. Also the > no load AC draw and programming setup is just not off grid ready at > all. I'm still not seeing any other great choices, though. Here's some > other possibilities: > > 1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with Honda > motor. Not the best choice especially for autostart, no propane, but at > least they can take it in to the shop if it goes down. > > 2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather start > issues? > > 3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model. Overkill, expensive, > but probably will last a really long time. > > 4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand. Kohler used to be > great, but now a days I'm not so sure. > > I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been giving other > customers trouble. Any new ideas on this age old problem? > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adirondackbattery at gmail.com Thu Feb 27 19:45:13 2020 From: adirondackbattery at gmail.com (Amanda Potter) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 19:45:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96D2E0E0-B376-4185-8C0E-5B5EA75836C4@gmail.com> We Installed a Kohler 14RES, L.P. & the crank-case breather froze ( the generator was on auto & was in a shelter), and the dip-stick blew out & the generator had just started & set the engine on fire. Oil everywhere. Luckily a worker saw the flames, (this was new Off-Grid construction), and was able to put the fire out. The construction workers did not trust the off-grid system anymore (Conext XW6848, which worked exactly as it was designed), and the owner tried and tried to get Kohler to honor the warranty (500 hours), but to no avail. He had to buy another generator. Amanda Potter Energy Storage Specialist NABCEP PV Installation Professional NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC Potsdam, NY (315) 212-2114 > On Feb 27, 2020, at 6:22 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > >  > We have had pretty good luck with the 14 kW Kohler which has an off-grid warranty. Its not perfect but it seems solid. We have had a few people with near 5000 hours on them. The controller is a bit of an energy hog but its the best we've found that weighs all of these issues. > >> On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 4:06 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> The Honda EU7000i also has it's own remote start kit that plugs into a >> socket on the genset. I think it has a 140 foot cable. About as easy to >> install as there is. Incredible life and reliability. We do not need a >> genset here but many of my clients use these. >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:53:09 -0800, Michael Morningstar >> wrote: >> > For small propane generators: Honda eu7000i w/propane conversion from >> > GenConnex and 2 wire start kit from GenLine. I’ve installed a couple >> dozen. >> > 4-8k hours life expectancy. Correct jet is a must for altitudes over >> 5.5k. >> > Alternators are a bit weak so I install a NOKO that’s plugged into the >> > generators own receptacle for extra on board charging. >> > >> > Small Diesel 7.5kw and up, that’s easy. Wrico International. I’ve got >> over >> > a hundred out there. No standby power draw. Super simple. Bulletproof. >> The >> > only issues I’ve seen are fuel supply related. 20k hours no problem. >> Open >> > Frame, so some protection is needed. They are building 7.5kw and up >> propane >> > generators now. I haven’t used one yet, but will when the right project >> > comes around. Their product support is the best. Call them and you will >> > speak to one of the principals. They can walk a layperson customer >> through >> > just about anything I would be called on to service. >> > >> > The larger low RPM, water cooled propane generators aren’t without their >> > problems. Kohler and Cummins/Onan have had problems within 2-3k hours. >> They >> > just aren’t the same as 10 years ago. >> > >> > Many dozens of Multi Quips out there. They are good choice. Tech support >> > response is generally slow. >> > >> > Michael >> > >> >> On Feb 27, 2020, at 2:25 PM, Ray wrote: >> >> >> >> I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be >> >> disappointed with the Generac Ecogen. Very high failure rate, and >> >> support is poor. Service requires expensive on site service. Also the >> no >> >> load AC draw and programming setup is just not off grid ready at all. >> >> I'm still not seeing any other great choices, though. Here's some >> other >> >> possibilities: >> >> >> >> 1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with Honda >> >> motor. Not the best choice especially for autostart, no propane, but >> at >> >> least they can take it in to the shop if it goes down. >> >> >> >> 2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather start >> >> issues? >> >> >> >> 3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model. Overkill, expensive, >> >> but probably will last a really long time. >> >> >> >> 4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand. Kohler used to be >> >> great, but now a days I'm not so sure. >> >> >> >> I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been giving other >> >> customers trouble. Any new ideas on this age old problem? >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Ray Walters >> >> Remote Solar >> >> 303 505-8760 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: >> >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russo.lou at gmail.com Thu Feb 27 20:17:04 2020 From: russo.lou at gmail.com (Lou Russo) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 15:17:04 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? In-Reply-To: <96D2E0E0-B376-4185-8C0E-5B5EA75836C4@gmail.com> References: <96D2E0E0-B376-4185-8C0E-5B5EA75836C4@gmail.com> Message-ID: We recommend two setups: 1. Any correctly sized Honda with no auto-start. I have tried unsuccessfully to get the auto-start (not remote start) to be 90% reliable. Client can haul it to town if they need. Honda seems to make a pretty reliable gasoline generator. This is how I run my off-grid home and I've had the same one for 8 years now. 2. Any correctly sized Northern-Lights generator with a DynaGen GSC300 auto-start. Rock solid 2-wire start with a even better engine and generator end. Have some well maintained ones out there that are over 15 years old with 10,000 plus hours. Pricey but over the top reliability. Aloha, Lou Russo (808) 345 6762 On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 2:54 PM Amanda Potter wrote: > We Installed a Kohler 14RES, L.P. & the crank-case breather froze ( the > generator was on auto & was in a shelter), and the dip-stick blew out & the > generator had just started & set the engine on fire. Oil everywhere. > Luckily a worker saw the flames, (this was new Off-Grid construction), and > was able to put the fire out. > The construction workers did not trust the off-grid system anymore (Conext > XW6848, which worked exactly as it was designed), and the owner tried and > tried to get Kohler to honor the warranty (500 hours), but to no avail. > He had to buy another generator. > > Amanda Potter > Energy Storage Specialist > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer > Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC > Potsdam, NY > (315) 212-2114 > > On Feb 27, 2020, at 6:22 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > >  > We have had pretty good luck with the 14 kW Kohler which has an off-grid > warranty. Its not perfect but it seems solid. We have had a few people > with near 5000 hours on them. The controller is a bit of an energy hog but > its the best we've found that weighs all of these issues. > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 4:06 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > >> The Honda EU7000i also has it's own remote start kit that plugs into a >> socket on the genset. I think it has a 140 foot cable. About as easy to >> install as there is. Incredible life and reliability. We do not need a >> genset here but many of my clients use these. >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:53:09 -0800, Michael Morningstar >> wrote: >> > For small propane generators: Honda eu7000i w/propane conversion from >> > GenConnex and 2 wire start kit from GenLine. I’ve installed a couple >> dozen. >> > 4-8k hours life expectancy. Correct jet is a must for altitudes over >> 5.5k. >> > Alternators are a bit weak so I install a NOKO that’s plugged into the >> > generators own receptacle for extra on board charging. >> > >> > Small Diesel 7.5kw and up, that’s easy. Wrico International. I’ve got >> over >> > a hundred out there. No standby power draw. Super simple. Bulletproof. >> The >> > only issues I’ve seen are fuel supply related. 20k hours no problem. >> Open >> > Frame, so some protection is needed. They are building 7.5kw and up >> propane >> > generators now. I haven’t used one yet, but will when the right project >> > comes around. Their product support is the best. Call them and you will >> > speak to one of the principals. They can walk a layperson customer >> through >> > just about anything I would be called on to service. >> > >> > The larger low RPM, water cooled propane generators aren’t without their >> > problems. Kohler and Cummins/Onan have had problems within 2-3k hours. >> They >> > just aren’t the same as 10 years ago. >> > >> > Many dozens of Multi Quips out there. They are good choice. Tech support >> > response is generally slow. >> > >> > Michael >> > >> >> On Feb 27, 2020, at 2:25 PM, Ray wrote: >> >> >> >> I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be >> >> disappointed with the Generac Ecogen. Very high failure rate, and >> >> support is poor. Service requires expensive on site service. Also the >> no >> >> load AC draw and programming setup is just not off grid ready at all. >> >> I'm still not seeing any other great choices, though. Here's some >> other >> >> possibilities: >> >> >> >> 1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with Honda >> >> motor. Not the best choice especially for autostart, no propane, but >> at >> >> least they can take it in to the shop if it goes down. >> >> >> >> 2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather start >> >> issues? >> >> >> >> 3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model. Overkill, expensive, >> >> but probably will last a really long time. >> >> >> >> 4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand. Kohler used to be >> >> great, but now a days I'm not so sure. >> >> >> >> I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been giving other >> >> customers trouble. Any new ideas on this age old problem? >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Ray Walters >> >> Remote Solar >> >> 303 505-8760 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: >> >> >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Feb 27 20:24:02 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 18:24:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? In-Reply-To: <96D2E0E0-B376-4185-8C0E-5B5EA75836C4@gmail.com> References: <96D2E0E0-B376-4185-8C0E-5B5EA75836C4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <219072f9-9e5e-3ff1-9fc1-096eb8091201@solarray.com> Well, that's certainly a glowing (hot) review for Kohler. Amazing that with as much progress as we've made with solar, MPPT controllers, and Li+ batteries, the industry has gone backwards significantly in the generator department.  Kohler used to make a wonderful little water cooled 1800 rpm model, some of which are still in service. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 2/27/20 5:45 PM, Amanda Potter wrote: > We Installed a Kohler 14RES, L.P. & the crank-case breather froze ( > the generator was on auto & was in a shelter), and the dip-stick blew > out & the generator had just started & set the engine on fire. Oil > everywhere. > Luckily a worker saw the flames, (this was new Off-Grid construction), > and was able to put the fire out. > The construction workers did not trust the off-grid system anymore > (Conext XW6848, which worked exactly as it was designed), and the > owner tried and tried to get Kohler to honor the warranty (500 hours), > but to no avail. > He had to buy another generator. > > Amanda Potter > Energy Storage Specialist > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer > Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC > Potsdam, NY > (315) 212-2114 > >> On Feb 27, 2020, at 6:22 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: >> >>  >> We have had pretty good luck with the 14 kW Kohler which has an >> off-grid warranty.  Its not perfect but it seems solid.  We have had >> a few people with near 5000 hours on them.  The controller is a bit >> of an energy hog but its the best we've found that weighs all of >> these issues. >> >> On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 4:06 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> > wrote: >> >> The Honda EU7000i also has it's own remote start kit that plugs >> into a >> socket on the genset. I think it has a 140 foot cable. About as >> easy to >> install as there is. Incredible life and reliability. We do not >> need a >> genset here but many of my clients use these. >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:53:09 -0800, Michael Morningstar >> > wrote: >> > For small propane generators: Honda eu7000i w/propane >> conversion from >> > GenConnex and 2 wire start kit from GenLine. I’ve installed a >> couple >> dozen. >> > 4-8k hours life expectancy. Correct jet is a must for altitudes >> over >> 5.5k. >> > Alternators are a bit weak so I install a NOKO that’s plugged >> into the >> > generators own receptacle for extra on board charging. >> > >> > Small Diesel 7.5kw and up, that’s easy. Wrico International. >> I’ve got >> over >> > a hundred out there. No standby power draw. Super simple. >> Bulletproof. >> The >> > only issues I’ve seen are fuel supply related. 20k hours no >> problem. >> Open >> > Frame, so some protection is needed. They are building 7.5kw and up >> propane >> > generators now. I haven’t used one yet, but will when the right >> project >> > comes around. Their product support is the best. Call them and >> you will >> > speak to one of the principals. They can walk a layperson customer >> through >> > just about anything I would be called on to service. >> > >> > The larger low RPM, water cooled propane generators aren’t >> without their >> > problems. Kohler and Cummins/Onan have had problems within 2-3k >> hours. >> They >> > just aren’t the same as 10 years ago. >> > >> > Many dozens of Multi Quips out there. They are good choice. >> Tech support >> > response is generally slow. >> > >> > Michael >> > >> >> On Feb 27, 2020, at 2:25 PM, Ray > > wrote: >> >> >> >> I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be >> >> disappointed with the Generac Ecogen.  Very high failure rate, and >> >> support is poor.  Service requires expensive on site service. >> Also the >> no >> >> load AC draw and programming setup is just not off grid ready >> at all. >> >> I'm still not seeing any other great choices, though.  Here's some >> other >> >> possibilities: >> >> >> >> 1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with >> Honda >> >> motor.  Not the best choice especially for autostart, no >> propane, but >> at >> >> least they can take it in to the shop if it goes down. >> >> >> >> 2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather >> start >> >> issues? >> >> >> >> 3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model.  Overkill, >> expensive, >> >> but probably will last a really long time. >> >> >> >> 4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand.  Kohler used to be >> >> great, but now a days I'm not so sure. >> >> >> >> I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been >> giving other >> >> customers trouble.  Any new ideas on this age old problem? >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Ray Walters >> >> Remote Solar >> >> 303 505-8760 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: >> >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> * >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> * >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu Feb 27 21:07:18 2020 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 18:07:18 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? In-Reply-To: <219072f9-9e5e-3ff1-9fc1-096eb8091201@solarray.com> References: <219072f9-9e5e-3ff1-9fc1-096eb8091201@solarray.com> Message-ID: <688593A3-E0AD-4BF9-A66C-14A89F6FED55@gmail.com> It’s a race to the bottom! At least in the manufacture’s residential offerings. Lawn mower engines. Kohler, Cummins/Onan, and Generac still produce high quality industrial machines. John Deere, Cummins, Volvo, and Rolls Royce engines. 125kva to megawatts. DynaGen controllers are good. I have seen hiccups before. Today for example. One failed to stop a generator after the control circuit opened. After 400 hours! They also draw a small load, either a battery charger needs to be connected to the starting battery, or a minimum weekly exercise to charge. It’s a vulnerability. I don’t use generators that use them for unattended of -grid or when there isn’t another backup generator. Generators with simple engine controllers like Wrico W120, are best. Many generators can be retrofitted with such a controller. >> On Feb 27, 2020, at 5:24 PM, Ray wrote: >  > Well, that's certainly a glowing (hot) review for Kohler. Amazing that with as much progress as we've made with solar, MPPT controllers, and Li+ batteries, the industry has gone backwards significantly in the generator department. Kohler used to make a wonderful little water cooled 1800 rpm model, some of which are still in service. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 2/27/20 5:45 PM, Amanda Potter wrote: >> We Installed a Kohler 14RES, L.P. & the crank-case breather froze ( the generator was on auto & was in a shelter), and the dip-stick blew out & the generator had just started & set the engine on fire. Oil everywhere. >> Luckily a worker saw the flames, (this was new Off-Grid construction), and was able to put the fire out. >> The construction workers did not trust the off-grid system anymore (Conext XW6848, which worked exactly as it was designed), and the owner tried and tried to get Kohler to honor the warranty (500 hours), but to no avail. >> He had to buy another generator. >> >> Amanda Potter >> Energy Storage Specialist >> NABCEP PV Installation Professional >> NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer >> Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC >> Potsdam, NY >> (315) 212-2114 >> >>> On Feb 27, 2020, at 6:22 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: >>>  >>> We have had pretty good luck with the 14 kW Kohler which has an off-grid warranty. Its not perfect but it seems solid. We have had a few people with near 5000 hours on them. The controller is a bit of an energy hog but its the best we've found that weighs all of these issues. >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 4:06 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>>> The Honda EU7000i also has it's own remote start kit that plugs into a >>>> socket on the genset. I think it has a 140 foot cable. About as easy to >>>> install as there is. Incredible life and reliability. We do not need a >>>> genset here but many of my clients use these. >>>> >>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060 >>>> >>>> On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:53:09 -0800, Michael Morningstar >>>> wrote: >>>> > For small propane generators: Honda eu7000i w/propane conversion from >>>> > GenConnex and 2 wire start kit from GenLine. I’ve installed a couple >>>> dozen. >>>> > 4-8k hours life expectancy. Correct jet is a must for altitudes over >>>> 5.5k. >>>> > Alternators are a bit weak so I install a NOKO that’s plugged into the >>>> > generators own receptacle for extra on board charging. >>>> > >>>> > Small Diesel 7.5kw and up, that’s easy. Wrico International. I’ve got >>>> over >>>> > a hundred out there. No standby power draw. Super simple. Bulletproof. >>>> The >>>> > only issues I’ve seen are fuel supply related. 20k hours no problem. >>>> Open >>>> > Frame, so some protection is needed. They are building 7.5kw and up >>>> propane >>>> > generators now. I haven’t used one yet, but will when the right project >>>> > comes around. Their product support is the best. Call them and you will >>>> > speak to one of the principals. They can walk a layperson customer >>>> through >>>> > just about anything I would be called on to service. >>>> > >>>> > The larger low RPM, water cooled propane generators aren’t without their >>>> > problems. Kohler and Cummins/Onan have had problems within 2-3k hours. >>>> They >>>> > just aren’t the same as 10 years ago. >>>> > >>>> > Many dozens of Multi Quips out there. They are good choice. Tech support >>>> > response is generally slow. >>>> > >>>> > Michael >>>> > >>>> >> On Feb 27, 2020, at 2:25 PM, Ray wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be >>>> >> disappointed with the Generac Ecogen. Very high failure rate, and >>>> >> support is poor. Service requires expensive on site service. Also the >>>> no >>>> >> load AC draw and programming setup is just not off grid ready at all. >>>> >> I'm still not seeing any other great choices, though. Here's some >>>> other >>>> >> possibilities: >>>> >> >>>> >> 1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with Honda >>>> >> motor. Not the best choice especially for autostart, no propane, but >>>> at >>>> >> least they can take it in to the shop if it goes down. >>>> >> >>>> >> 2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather start >>>> >> issues? >>>> >> >>>> >> 3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model. Overkill, expensive, >>>> >> but probably will last a really long time. >>>> >> >>>> >> 4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand. Kohler used to be >>>> >> great, but now a days I'm not so sure. >>>> >> >>>> >> I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been giving other >>>> >> customers trouble. Any new ideas on this age old problem? >>>> >> >>>> >> -- >>>> >> Ray Walters >>>> >> Remote Solar >>>> >> 303 505-8760 >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >> >>>> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >>>> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >>>> >> List-Archive: >>>> >> >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >> >>>> >> List rules & etiquette: >>>> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >> >>>> >> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> > >>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > List-Archive: >>>> > >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> > >>>> > List rules & etiquette: >>>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> > >>>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Feb 27 18:01:03 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 15:01:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? In-Reply-To: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> References: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> Message-ID: <47ce1dc862b587382828b1730b87c54d@mail.gmail.com> Ray, Wrenches: My experience with Generac is similar to yours. Coincidentally, I just received an invite from our local Greentech to attend a Generac training. Apparently Greentech thinks they should sell generators. This sounds like a bad fit for a supply house. When I politely declined the invitation, I mentioned that with any big ticket item, especially one with moving parts, I like to create a relationship with whoever will be servicing that item. This starts with buying the unit from a reputable local shop. If you subscribe to this theory, the brand of generator you choose should have someone to service it within reasonable range. This may narrow your choices. William PS: The smallest generator I have purchased lately is a 12kw vertical crankshaft Kohler. It gets minimum hours but seems to run OK. W Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 2:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be disappointed with the Generac Ecogen. Very high failure rate, and support is poor. Service requires expensive on site service. Also the no load AC draw and programming setup is just not off grid ready at all. I'm still not seeing any other great choices, though. Here's some other possibilities: 1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with Honda motor. Not the best choice especially for autostart, no propane, but at least they can take it in to the shop if it goes down. 2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather start issues? 3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model. Overkill, expensive, but probably will last a really long time. 4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand. Kohler used to be great, but now a days I'm not so sure. I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been giving other customers trouble. Any new ideas on this age old problem? -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Feb 27 21:38:34 2020 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 21:38:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? Message-ID: <3i9kqogcr5dli75ovcq4n1f2.1582857461085@email.lge.com> The reason Greentech is handling Generac is because they purchased Pika and have rebranded their line.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: William MillerDate: Thu, Feb 27, 2020 9:20 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators?Ray, Wrenches: My experience with Generac is similar to yours. Coincidentally, I just received an invite from our local Greentech to attend a Generac training. Apparently Greentech thinks they should sell generators. This sounds like a bad fit for a supply house. When I politely declined the invitation, I mentioned that with any big ticket item, especially one with moving parts, I like to create a relationship with whoever will be servicing that item. This starts with buying the unit from a reputable local shop. If you subscribe to this theory, the brand of generator you choose should have someone to service it within reasonable range. This may narrow your choices. William PS: The smallest generator I have purchased lately is a 12kw vertical crankshaft Kohler. It gets minimum hours but seems to run OK. W Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 2:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be disappointed with the Generac Ecogen. Very high failure rate, and support is poor. Service requires expensive on site service. Also the no load AC draw and programming setup is just not off grid ready at all. I'm still not seeing any other great choices, though. Here's some other possibilities: 1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with Honda motor. Not the best choice especially for autostart, no propane, but at least they can take it in to the shop if it goes down. 2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather start issues? 3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model. Overkill, expensive, but probably will last a really long time. 4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand. Kohler used to be great, but now a days I'm not so sure. I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been giving other customers trouble. Any new ideas on this age old problem? -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Thu Feb 27 22:24:28 2020 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 21:24:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? In-Reply-To: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> References: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> Message-ID: <3E57147D-F307-4E23-B2BD-386F1DAE70BE@mavericksolar.com> Ray Your list mirrors mine. Never. Ever. Ever. Buy or believe you’ll get support of any kind from Generac. I fell for the lure of the ECO GEN and it ate itself one night while helping our off grid home get through a hot cloudy summer day. For my off grid experience since 2005, I would vote for: 1. For Big Systems, I’d vote for a Cummins 1800 water cooled unit. 20kw is great genny for a double stack or more of Radians. They work. Period. After a few tries, a couple customers agreed to water cooled and life is grand. Kohler RES-14 and RES-20 air-cooled units have also been great. For those customers there are big battery banks and the generator is less needed. 2. Kubota GL11000 or GL7000. I have a few in my customer group. I have the GL6000 at my shop. It can be made auto start. Diesel is man-potable. They always start and run and they are water cooled even though they are 3600 rpms, they are quiet. 3. Honda inverter generators. I have several customers with different wattages. I love these. Won’t do much good to put a EU2000i on a 2400Ah bank, but the EU7000i can be auto started in some climates with a 3-wire controller like a XW-AGS. Keep the oil changed. Also. The key here is use vs capacity for use. If you design a system that needs the generator to run every. single. day., you might want to spec a generator that costs more than the solar array. Or have enough battery for a 8x load and solar for 2x or more. The old adage you get what you pay for is still valid in the off grid world. Thank you, Maverick > On Feb 27, 2020, at 4:25 PM, Ray wrote: > > I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be disappointed with the Generac Ecogen. Very high failure rate, and support is poor. Service requires expensive on site service. Also the no load AC draw and programming setup is just not off grid ready at all. I'm still not seeing any other great choices, though. Here's some other possibilities: > > 1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with Honda motor. Not the best choice especially for autostart, no propane, but at least they can take it in to the shop if it goes down. > > 2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather start issues? > > 3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model. Overkill, expensive, but probably will last a really long time. > > 4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand. Kohler used to be great, but now a days I'm not so sure. > > I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been giving other customers trouble. Any new ideas on this age old problem? > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Fri Feb 28 00:33:03 2020 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 05:33:03 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? In-Reply-To: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> References: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> Message-ID: <6ff8fc9071e84264a83de63965f49e69@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> We have had good success with industrial diesels from a local generator shop (westquip diesel). Built to order with name brand components. Put a couple 7.5 kW and few 14 kW units in last year, and they worked well through this past winter so far. Isuzu 3CH1 or 3CE1 engines, mated to a Stamford generator end, with Dynagen or Deep Sea controllers. For our cold winters in northern Canada, generators fitted with glow plugs, intake heater as well as auxillary block heater. We got down to -31F for a week this winter and they all started fine unattended. Put a few units in the year before with Kubota engines and they were all unreliable cold starters. Much happier with Isuzu. We have a few tweaks we do to the controller programming to help it in the cold weather. Have had far better success with this approach than any of the options discussed in this thread. Having a responsive generator manufacturer Of late we have had many quality issues with Honda generators - both the cheaper EM series, as well as the EU. Frustrating to diagnose as we provide the repair shop with a detailed power quality analysis showing them the issues, but they just don't have the expertise to understand that. Their testing is "it runs a skill saw, so it's good, right?". So am having to caution clients who go down the Honda route, if they get a good unit it's likely to last for a while, but if it's a dud out of the box good luck getting it resolved. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: February-27-20 2:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be disappointed with the Generac Ecogen.  Very high failure rate, and support is poor.  Service requires expensive on site service. Also the no load AC draw and programming setup is just not off grid ready at all.  I'm still not seeing any other great choices, though.  Here's some other possibilities: 1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with Honda motor.  Not the best choice especially for autostart, no propane, but at least they can take it in to the shop if it goes down. 2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather start issues? 3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model.  Overkill, expensive, but probably will last a really long time. 4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand.  Kohler used to be great, but now a days I'm not so sure. I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been giving other customers trouble.  Any new ideas on this age old problem? -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Fri Feb 28 01:19:15 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 22:19:15 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? In-Reply-To: <6ff8fc9071e84264a83de63965f49e69@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> <6ff8fc9071e84264a83de63965f49e69@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: We've had good experience with the KOHLER 30REOZK 30 KW Diesel units. Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design Kevin Pegg wrote on 2/27/20 9:33 PM: > We have had good success with industrial diesels from a local generator shop (westquip diesel). Built to order with name brand components. Put a couple 7.5 kW and few 14 kW units in last year, and they worked well through this past winter so far. > > Isuzu 3CH1 or 3CE1 engines, mated to a Stamford generator end, with Dynagen or Deep Sea controllers. > > For our cold winters in northern Canada, generators fitted with glow plugs, intake heater as well as auxillary block heater. We got down to -31F for a week this winter and they all started fine unattended. Put a few units in the year before with Kubota engines and they were all unreliable cold starters. Much happier with Isuzu. > > We have a few tweaks we do to the controller programming to help it in the cold weather. Have had far better success with this approach than any of the options discussed in this thread. Having a responsive generator manufacturer > > Of late we have had many quality issues with Honda generators - both the cheaper EM series, as well as the EU. Frustrating to diagnose as we provide the repair shop with a detailed power quality analysis showing them the issues, but they just don't have the expertise to understand that. Their testing is "it runs a skill saw, so it's good, right?". So am having to caution clients who go down the Honda route, if they get a good unit it's likely to last for a while, but if it's a dud out of the box good luck getting it resolved. > > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray > Sent: February-27-20 2:26 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? > > I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be disappointed with the Generac Ecogen.  Very high failure rate, and support is poor.  Service requires expensive on site service. Also the no load AC draw and programming setup is just not off grid ready at all.  I'm still not seeing any other great choices, though.  Here's some other possibilities: > > 1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with Honda motor.  Not the best choice especially for autostart, no propane, but at least they can take it in to the shop if it goes down. > > 2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather start issues? > > 3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model.  Overkill, expensive, but probably will last a really long time. > > 4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand.  Kohler used to be great, but now a days I'm not so sure. > > I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been giving other customers trouble.  Any new ideas on this age old problem? > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Feb 28 07:14:44 2020 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:14:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? In-Reply-To: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> References: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray, I'm a Generac dealer. Why are you having support problems? Generac has a large dealer network, if the unit is under warranty you should have no problem getting it fixed. Did you buy through a dealer and have them install it? Why are the services expensive? What failures are you seeing? There is a hole in the market for products in this application. Virtually no-one makes an affordable ~10KW diesel enclosed 2 wire start 1,800 rpm reliable diesel generator. I once ordered, on spec, a 9KW Perkins engine liquid cooled enclosed diesel from a factory in China I deal with. I sold it to a customer that ran it 18 hours a day on 100% load, to power his restaurant refrigeration outside service hours. It lasted him years, it must have thousands of hours on it. I think the big problem in the US is getting permits for diesel generators. On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 6:25 PM Ray wrote: > I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be > disappointed with the Generac Ecogen. Very high failure rate, and > support is poor. Service requires expensive on site service. Also the > no load AC draw and programming setup is just not off grid ready at > all. I'm still not seeing any other great choices, though. Here's some > other possibilities: > > 1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with Honda > motor. Not the best choice especially for autostart, no propane, but at > least they can take it in to the shop if it goes down. > > 2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather start > issues? > > 3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model. Overkill, expensive, > but probably will last a really long time. > > 4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand. Kohler used to be > great, but now a days I'm not so sure. > > I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been giving other > customers trouble. Any new ideas on this age old problem? > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Feb 28 07:18:10 2020 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:18:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? In-Reply-To: <47ce1dc862b587382828b1730b87c54d@mail.gmail.com> References: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> <47ce1dc862b587382828b1730b87c54d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, Generac has a structure where box stores like HD and Lowes sell the residential generators and arrange local certified dealers to perform the installation, warranty and service work. The dealers are not real fond of it but Generac can't get to be the largest brand relying on dealers for sales. Generac is pretty good on compensating dealers for warranty work so there are a number of dealers that make their living on installation, servicing and warranty work. On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 10:20 PM William Miller wrote: > Ray, Wrenches: > > My experience with Generac is similar to yours. Coincidentally, I just > received an invite from our local Greentech to attend a Generac training. > Apparently Greentech thinks they should sell generators. This sounds like > a > bad fit for a supply house. > > When I politely declined the invitation, I mentioned that with any big > ticket item, especially one with moving parts, I like to create a > relationship with whoever will be servicing that item. This starts with > buying the unit from a reputable local shop. If you subscribe to this > theory, the brand of generator you choose should have someone to service > it > within reasonable range. This may narrow your choices. > > William > > PS: The smallest generator I have purchased lately is a 12kw vertical > crankshaft Kohler. It gets minimum hours but seems to run OK. > > W > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 2:26 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? > > I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be > disappointed with the Generac Ecogen. Very high failure rate, and > support is poor. Service requires expensive on site service. Also the > no load AC draw and programming setup is just not off grid ready at > all. I'm still not seeing any other great choices, though. Here's some > other possibilities: > > 1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with Honda > motor. Not the best choice especially for autostart, no propane, but at > least they can take it in to the shop if it goes down. > > 2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather start > issues? > > 3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model. Overkill, expensive, > but probably will last a really long time. > > 4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand. Kohler used to be > great, but now a days I'm not so sure. > > I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been giving other > customers trouble. Any new ideas on this age old problem? > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Feb 28 09:05:39 2020 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 10:05:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? In-Reply-To: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> References: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> Message-ID: Generac also has a nice 15KW Diesel Protector unit, that'll keep the lights on very nicely, is relatively inexpensive and I haven't heard any complaints about them failing. We had one Protector Diesel with a failed fuel pump solenoid but I changed it out under warranty and there hasn't been any other issues. Of course they are not $4,000, you are not going to get a liquid cooled generator for under $10,000. On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 6:25 PM Ray wrote: > I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be > disappointed with the Generac Ecogen. Very high failure rate, and > support is poor. Service requires expensive on site service. Also the > no load AC draw and programming setup is just not off grid ready at > all. I'm still not seeing any other great choices, though. Here's some > other possibilities: > > 1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with Honda > motor. Not the best choice especially for autostart, no propane, but at > least they can take it in to the shop if it goes down. > > 2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather start > issues? > > 3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model. Overkill, expensive, > but probably will last a really long time. > > 4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand. Kohler used to be > great, but now a days I'm not so sure. > > I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been giving other > customers trouble. Any new ideas on this age old problem? > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Feb 28 10:11:59 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:11:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <88487AE4-F0C6-46A3-AAF7-12ACB2EE6B11@gmail.com> 2 other small options are, marine generators and RV/truck APU generators. Jay Peltz power. > On Feb 28, 2020, at 7:05 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > >  > Generac also has a nice 15KW Diesel Protector unit, that'll keep the lights on very nicely, is relatively inexpensive and I haven't heard any complaints about them failing. We had one Protector Diesel with a failed fuel pump solenoid but I changed it out under warranty and there hasn't been any other issues. > Of course they are not $4,000, you are not going to get a liquid cooled generator for under $10,000. > >> On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 6:25 PM Ray wrote: >> I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be >> disappointed with the Generac Ecogen. Very high failure rate, and >> support is poor. Service requires expensive on site service. Also the >> no load AC draw and programming setup is just not off grid ready at >> all. I'm still not seeing any other great choices, though. Here's some >> other possibilities: >> >> 1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with Honda >> motor. Not the best choice especially for autostart, no propane, but at >> least they can take it in to the shop if it goes down. >> >> 2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather start issues? >> >> 3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model. Overkill, expensive, >> but probably will last a really long time. >> >> 4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand. Kohler used to be >> great, but now a days I'm not so sure. >> >> I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been giving other >> customers trouble. Any new ideas on this age old problem? >> >> -- >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > -- > Chris Mason > Solar systems designer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar > Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 > WhatsApp 264.235.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > www.cometsolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Feb 28 14:35:17 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:35:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 VDC Control fusing Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, It seems that inline fuse holders and glass fuses are becoming hard to find. What is a good way to protect 48 V DC control and instrumentation wires? Thank you, Drake -- From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Feb 28 15:35:58 2020 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 15:35:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 VDC Control fusing Message-ID: <2at0e7b59ej5bs3blvl95o21.1582922085955@email.lge.com> I continue to find inline, terminal strips and glass fuses at my local automotive store. -GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.orgDate: Fri, Feb 28, 2020 2:58 PMTo: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] 48 VDC Control fusingHello Wrenches, It seems that inline fuse holders and glass fuses are becoming hard to find. What is a good way to protect 48 V DC control and instrumentation wires? Thank you, Drake -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Feb 28 15:41:29 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 13:41:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? In-Reply-To: References: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> Message-ID: Some of the issues have been Generac not providing a simple wiring schematic, nor simply labeling the 2 start wires.  2nd is requiring either internet connection or a call in to get the start code.  Both have been very problematic in remote locations with no phone service.  Totally unnecessary.  We don't need a Generac tech just to connect wires, I'm the licensed electrician.  Last time I called Generac, (control error not listed in the manual) they insisted I needed to call in a service tech, and offered zero trouble shooting.  I fixed the problem by pulling the fuse and resetting the controller.  3rd, service requires a long expensive trip by the service tech, who then diagnoses the problem, has to order the parts and return weeks later. This means every issue takes 2 round trips to resolve.  If its a bigger issue, it requires a truck lift to haul the 500 lb unit in to the shop. We're hearing $500 just to get the generator to the shop, then another $500 to reinstall it after. Failures have included several catastrophic engine failures, blowing oil every where, some of these have been in the first few hundred hours. Lots of control issues, one recently had voltage that varied from 90 to 130, 45 to 70 Hz, and the inverter wouldn't even connect to it. I quit selling generators a long time ago, because I didn't want the service liability.  I'm not a mechanic, and I don't want to be.  I do however, need a generator I can recommend in good faith.  The Ecogen has made us look pretty bad.  Glad I didn't sell them, but then I've seen some large water cooled unit that worked well. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 2/28/20 5:14 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > Ray, > I'm a Generac dealer. Why are you having support problems? Generac has > a large dealer network, if the unit is under warranty you should have > no problem getting it fixed. Did you buy through a dealer and have > them install it? Why are the services expensive? > > What failures are you seeing? > > There is a hole in the market for products in this application. > Virtually no-one makes an affordable ~10KW diesel enclosed 2 wire > start 1,800 rpm reliable diesel generator. I once ordered, on spec, a > 9KW Perkins engine liquid cooled enclosed diesel from a factory in > China I deal with. I sold it to a customer that ran it 18 hours a day > on 100% load, to power his restaurant refrigeration outside service > hours. It lasted him years, it must have thousands of hours on it. > I think the big problem in the US is getting permits for diesel > generators. > > > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 6:25 PM Ray > wrote: > > I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be > disappointed with the Generac Ecogen.  Very high failure rate, and > support is poor.  Service requires expensive on site service. Also > the > no load AC draw and programming setup is just not off grid ready at > all.  I'm still not seeing any other great choices, though. Here's > some > other possibilities: > > 1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with Honda > motor.  Not the best choice especially for autostart, no propane, > but at > least they can take it in to the shop if it goes down. > > 2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather > start issues? > > 3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model.  Overkill, expensive, > but probably will last a really long time. > > 4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand.  Kohler used to be > great, but now a days I'm not so sure. > > I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been giving > other > customers trouble.  Any new ideas on this age old problem? > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Chris Mason > Solar systems designer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar > Anguilla Cell  264.235.5670 > WhatsApp 264.235.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > www.cometsolar.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Feb 28 15:46:28 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 13:46:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 VDC Control fusing In-Reply-To: <2at0e7b59ej5bs3blvl95o21.1582922085955@email.lge.com> References: <2at0e7b59ej5bs3blvl95o21.1582922085955@email.lge.com> Message-ID: <4e52a926-0b0d-cdd7-2d7a-1b90f7ddbe86@solarray.com> We still use inline fuses ordered online, but Midnite Solar carries a whole line of DC rated breakers that go down to 1 amp. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 2/28/20 1:35 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > I continue to find inline, terminal strips and glass fuses at my local > automotive store. > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > > *Date: *Fri, Feb 28, 2020 2:58 PM > *To: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > ; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] 48 VDC Control fusing > > Hello > Wrenches, > > It seems that inline fuse holders and glass fuses are becoming hard to > find. What is a good way to protect 48 V DC control and instrumentation > wires? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org /maillist.ht ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Feb 28 19:37:20 2020 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:37:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 VDC Control fusing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Drake, Perhaps this fuse holder will work if you want to stay with glass envelope: https://www.waytekwire.com/item/46069/Littelfuse-3031-0-In-Line-Fuse-Holder/ We mostly use panel mount breakers for small loads: https://www.alliedelec.com/circuit-protection/circuit-breakers/?category=2%7C2510416%2F2301910&a7=In%20Stock%20Only&n8744=1%20Pole&n11096=50%20VDC%2C48%20VDC 3A example: https://www.alliedelec.com/product/te-connectivity/w58-xb1a4a-3/70199433/ Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Feb 28, 2020, at 12:35 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: Hello Wrenches, It seems that inline fuse holders and glass fuses are becoming hard to find. What is a good way to protect 48 V DC control and instrumentation wires? Thank you, Drake -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 1380 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Fri Feb 28 23:23:23 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 20:23:23 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 VDC Control fusing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42a051ed-89ce-5193-2864-6dce7d665e5d@villagepowerdesign.com> Hi Drake, Some in-line glass fuses and holders are not rated for 48 VDC.  The midnite 1 Amp breaker is an good option like Ray said but sometimes I prefer to use a fuse so it doesn't get accidentally shut off or so I can bury it behind a panel so the customer doesn't have too easy access. So If I have easy access to a place to mount DIN Rail such as in a Midnite E-Panel - then I use a midnite touch-fuse holder and a 1 amp fuse.  Or you can get them at any supply house like this. And of course it's easy enough to add a piece of DIN Rail to the back of any panel. I like using this approach for fusing 24 V power supplies running the monitoring equipment too - again so they don't get easily shut off. Hope that helps. Best, Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater VillageLab Village Power Design linkedin www.villagelab.net www.visionarycommons.org www.villagepowerdesign.com skype - jclearwater zoom by request cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote on 2/28/20 11:35 AM: > Hello Wrenches, > > It seems that inline fuse holders and glass fuses are becoming hard to > find. What is a good way to protect 48 V DC control and > instrumentation wires? > > Thank you, > > Drake > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sat Feb 29 18:27:32 2020 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 15:27:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... Message-ID: <93731c38-40b5-7c63-1d74-a879fbdd9d74@berkeleysolar.com> I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. Suppose I: - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid - I open the PV breaker - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 to one of the phases of the service (120 VAC) - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short period of time before the batteries get low -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I measure the battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls a 2kw immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a scan time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the SCR as voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. OK so far nothing has really changed from above. - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, sync and connect after five minutes. Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV with the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. Right? Mark Frye From frenergy at psln.com Sun Mar 1 09:26:27 2020 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 06:26:27 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... In-Reply-To: <93731c38-40b5-7c63-1d74-a879fbdd9d74@berkeleysolar.com> References: <93731c38-40b5-7c63-1d74-a879fbdd9d74@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Mark,             OR, you change-out your inverter to an SMA with Secure Power Supply and during grid power outage, while there is some sun on the panels, you would have up to 2KW of 120VAC power on the SPS circuit by just flipping a switch. We usually install a 4X outdoor box with a 120 VAC outlet ganged with a switch right under the inverter and let the customer run the power to the : frig, lights, battery charger, TV or whatever during an outage, though some romex could be run to close to the frig. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 2/29/2020 3:27 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. > > Suppose I: > > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid > > - I open the PV breaker > > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 to > one of the phases of the service (120 VAC) > > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter > > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short period > of time before the batteries get low > > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I measure > the battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls a > 2kw immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a > scan time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the > SCR as voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. > > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. > > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, > sync and connect after five minutes. > > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV with > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. > > Right? > > Mark Frye > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From kent at coveoregon.com Sun Mar 1 11:58:45 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 08:58:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... In-Reply-To: <93731c38-40b5-7c63-1d74-a879fbdd9d74@berkeleysolar.com> References: <93731c38-40b5-7c63-1d74-a879fbdd9d74@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <9e32901e-c5d4-ff70-9c44-406cc6d48d50@coveoregon.com> Mark, I believe that your plan would fail because you are forcing power to flow through the XP inverter backwards to charge the batteries. I don't believe the XP inverter can do that. The grid tied inverter would probably connect then immediately shut down, or connect and immediately ruin the XP inverter. It would work if you had a inverter with a bidirectional architecture like a Magnum, Outback, or Schneider inverter. But even then you'd have a hazardous situation because the cooling water is going to evaporate. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 2/29/2020 3:27 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. > > Suppose I: > > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid > > - I open the PV breaker > > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 to > one of the phases of the service (120 VAC) > > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter > > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short period > of time before the batteries get low > > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I measure > the battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls a > 2kw immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a > scan time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the > SCR as voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. > > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. > > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, > sync and connect after five minutes. > > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV with > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. > > Right? > > Mark Frye > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 12:31:36 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 07:31:36 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... In-Reply-To: <93731c38-40b5-7c63-1d74-a879fbdd9d74@berkeleysolar.com> References: <93731c38-40b5-7c63-1d74-a879fbdd9d74@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Mark What you are saying is to AC couple but most likely this would fail as your battery fills not enough loads HBCO or to much loads and your battery does a LBCO, either way you would be better off spending the money in a maybe a Outback Skybox easy install and is high voltage PV input and even a small 48 volt bank but think about storage Jerry On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 1:27 PM Mark Frye wrote: > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. > > Suppose I: > > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid > > - I open the PV breaker > > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 to one > of the phases of the service (120 VAC) > > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter > > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short period of > time before the batteries get low > > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I measure the > battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls a 2kw > immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a scan > time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the SCR as > voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. > > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. > > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, > sync and connect after five minutes. > > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV with > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. > > Right? > > Mark Frye > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Tue Mar 3 12:57:36 2020 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don at energysolarnow.com) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2020 10:57:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... Message-ID: <20200303105736.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.084abebff9.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 16:21:28 2020 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 17:21:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? In-Reply-To: References: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray, Let me try to address some of those issues for you. 1) You can get the activation code before you take it to site, you just need the serial number. Generac has a good warranty policy but they need to know where the generator is and when it is installed to be able to provide that. 2) An electrician can connect the wires but you would not believe the installations we have seen, done by licensed electricians. We have a dealer forum where installers post pictures of installations they find, and the mistakes are criminal and dangerous. I once found a propane 20KW generator running side a shipping container, doors closed. 3) Generac does not do direct support for generators, they require customers call a dealer. The dealer can then call Generac, and often does. I can't even call them if my certification expires. 4) If the generator is under warranty, you may not pay anything, depending on the coverage. Generac is offering up to ten year warranties. But once it is out of warranty, you will have to pay. Dealers don't work for free. The average electrician won't be able to diagnose problems reliably on these generators. The residential air cooled generators are very reliable and rarely have problems if well maintained. Techs should be traveling with common parts, I bring a controller and a few other parts so I can solve the problem in one go. Blown engines are rare, but they do happen. Generally in the first few hours, so under full warranty and replacement is generally done at Generac's expense. If you do have issues, contact me and I will try to help you. On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 4:41 PM Ray wrote: > Some of the issues have been Generac not providing a simple wiring > schematic, nor simply labeling the 2 start wires. 2nd is requiring either > internet connection or a call in to get the start code. Both have been > very problematic in remote locations with no phone service. Totally > unnecessary. We don't need a Generac tech just to connect wires, I'm the > licensed electrician. Last time I called Generac, (control error not > listed in the manual) they insisted I needed to call in a service tech, and > offered zero trouble shooting. I fixed the problem by pulling the fuse and > resetting the controller. 3rd, service requires a long expensive trip by > the service tech, who then diagnoses the problem, has to order the parts > and return weeks later. This means every issue takes 2 round trips to > resolve. If its a bigger issue, it requires a truck lift to haul the 500 > lb unit in to the shop. We're hearing $500 just to get the generator to > the shop, then another $500 to reinstall it after. > > Failures have included several catastrophic engine failures, blowing oil > every where, some of these have been in the first few hundred hours. Lots > of control issues, one recently had voltage that varied from 90 to 130, 45 > to 70 Hz, and the inverter wouldn't even connect to it. > > I quit selling generators a long time ago, because I didn't want the > service liability. I'm not a mechanic, and I don't want to be. I do > however, need a generator I can recommend in good faith. The Ecogen has > made us look pretty bad. Glad I didn't sell them, but then I've seen some > large water cooled unit that worked well. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 2/28/20 5:14 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > > Ray, > I'm a Generac dealer. Why are you having support problems? Generac has a > large dealer network, if the unit is under warranty you should have no > problem getting it fixed. Did you buy through a dealer and have them > install it? Why are the services expensive? > > What failures are you seeing? > > There is a hole in the market for products in this application. Virtually > no-one makes an affordable ~10KW diesel enclosed 2 wire start 1,800 rpm > reliable diesel generator. I once ordered, on spec, a 9KW Perkins engine > liquid cooled enclosed diesel from a factory in China I deal with. I sold > it to a customer that ran it 18 hours a day on 100% load, to power his > restaurant refrigeration outside service hours. It lasted him years, it > must have thousands of hours on it. > I think the big problem in the US is getting permits for diesel generators. > > > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 6:25 PM Ray wrote: > >> I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be >> disappointed with the Generac Ecogen. Very high failure rate, and >> support is poor. Service requires expensive on site service. Also the >> no load AC draw and programming setup is just not off grid ready at >> all. I'm still not seeing any other great choices, though. Here's some >> other possibilities: >> >> 1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with Honda >> motor. Not the best choice especially for autostart, no propane, but at >> least they can take it in to the shop if it goes down. >> >> 2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather start >> issues? >> >> 3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model. Overkill, expensive, >> but probably will last a really long time. >> >> 4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand. Kohler used to be >> great, but now a days I'm not so sure. >> >> I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been giving other >> customers trouble. Any new ideas on this age old problem? >> >> -- >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Chris Mason > Solar systems designer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar > Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 > WhatsApp 264.235.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > www.cometsolar.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 22:39:00 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 20:39:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW FET over-temp errors Message-ID: Hi wrenches, Does anyone know how to obtain a replacement cooling fan for a 5 yr old XW 6048 inverter? I suspect that the fan isn't functioning and the FET boards are heating up, we keep seeing a shutdown when selling near peak. I believe the Schneider part is 100-0639-01-01, but Im not seeing anything on a quick search. Thanks -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Mar 3 23:02:42 2020 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 22:02:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW FET over-temp errors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I’ve replaced the fan a few times. Mouser.com or digikey will have a good replacement. You’ll need to splice the white fan connector on to the new fan. I’ll look in the mouser history for the brand and model I used last. Thank you, Maverick > On Mar 3, 2020, at 9:39 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > >  > Hi wrenches, > > Does anyone know how to obtain a replacement cooling fan for a 5 yr old XW 6048 inverter? I suspect that the fan isn't functioning and the FET boards are heating up, we keep seeing a shutdown when selling near peak. > > I believe the Schneider part is 100-0639-01-01, but Im not seeing anything on a quick search. > > Thanks > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 4 01:46:54 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 01:46:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunPower Invisimount Span Tables Message-ID: Are there any SunPower dealers on the list that can help me out with the SunPower design tool? I'm only able to find span tables online in PDF for up to 140 mph design wind speed. I need to figure out if these rails have been evaluated for use up to 160 mph, Exp D, 15' roof height, flush mount, 5 degree roof tilt (ASCE 7-10). Please contact me off-list if you able to help. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 22:53:31 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 19:53:31 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... In-Reply-To: <20200303105736.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.084abebff9.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> References: <20200303105736.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.084abebff9.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Or a charger such as Iota, or power max. Jay Peltz power. > On Mar 3, 2020, at 7:24 PM, don at energysolarnow.com wrote: > >  > You wrote that you would connect the Exeltech to just one of the service phases. > But most GT inverters are 240 and require both phases. Is yours different? You did not mention which model it is. > Also, as Kent Osterberg mentioned, the Exeltech will not charge its batteries from the AC output. > Your scheme with the PLC controlling an SCR leaves unaddressed how any charge current gets directed into the batteries to allegedly raise their voltage. Is there a charger somewhere in this scheme? > You still need some way to charge batteries from solar. How about connecting a charge controller to some of the solar panels? > > Don Barch > Energy Solar > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 59 > From: re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > Date: Sun, March 01, 2020 2:19 pm > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." > > > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (Mark Frye) > 2. Re: OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (frenergy) > 3. Re: OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (Kent Osterberg) > 4. Re: OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (Jerry Shafer) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 15:27:32 -0800 > From: Mark Frye > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... > Message-ID: <93731c38-40b5-7c63-1d74-a879fbdd9d74 at berkeleysolar.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. > > Suppose I: > > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid > > - I open the PV breaker > > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 to one > of the phases of the service (120 VAC) > > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter > > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short period of > time before the batteries get low > > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I measure the > battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls a 2kw > immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a scan > time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the SCR as > voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. > > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. > > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, > sync and connect after five minutes. > > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV with > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. > > Right? > > Mark Frye > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 06:26:27 -0800 > From: frenergy > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > Mark, > > ??? ??? ??? OR, you change-out your inverter to an SMA with Secure > Power Supply and during grid power outage, while there is some sun on > the panels, you would have up to 2KW of 120VAC power on the SPS circuit > by just flipping a switch. We usually install a 4X outdoor box with a > 120 VAC outlet ganged with a switch right under the inverter and let the > customer run the power to the : frig, lights, battery charger, TV or > whatever during an outage, though some romex could be run to close to > the frig. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > On 2/29/2020 3:27 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. > > > > Suppose I: > > > > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid > > > > - I open the PV breaker > > > > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 to > > one of the phases of the service (120 VAC) > > > > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter > > > > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short period > > of time before the batteries get low > > > > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I measure > > the battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls a > > 2kw immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a > > scan time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the > > SCR as voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. > > > > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. > > > > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, > > sync and connect after five minutes. > > > > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV with > > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. > > > > Right? > > > > Mark Frye > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 08:58:45 -0800 > From: Kent Osterberg > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... > Message-ID: <9e32901e-c5d4-ff70-9c44-406cc6d48d50 at coveoregon.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > Mark, > > I believe that your plan would fail because you are forcing power to > flow through the XP inverter backwards to charge the batteries. I don't > believe the XP inverter can do that. The grid tied inverter would > probably connect then immediately shut down, or connect and immediately > ruin the XP inverter. It would work if you had a inverter with a > bidirectional architecture like a Magnum, Outback, or Schneider > inverter. But even then you'd have a hazardous situation because the > cooling water is going to evaporate. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 2/29/2020 3:27 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. > > > > Suppose I: > > > > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid > > > > - I open the PV breaker > > > > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 to > > one of the phases of the service (120 VAC) > > > > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter > > > > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short period > > of time before the batteries get low > > > > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I measure > > the battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls a > > 2kw immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a > > scan time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the > > SCR as voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. > > > > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. > > > > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, > > sync and connect after five minutes. > > > > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV with > > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. > > > > Right? > > > > Mark Frye > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 07:31:36 -1000 > From: Jerry Shafer > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Mark > What you are saying is to AC couple but most likely this would fail as your > battery fills not enough loads HBCO or to much loads and your battery does > a LBCO, either way you would be better off spending the money in a maybe a > Outback Skybox easy install and is high voltage PV input and even a small > 48 volt bank but think about storage > Jerry > > On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 1:27 PM Mark Frye wrote: > > > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. > > > > Suppose I: > > > > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid > > > > - I open the PV breaker > > > > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 to one > > of the phases of the service (120 VAC) > > > > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter > > > > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short period of > > time before the batteries get low > > > > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I measure the > > battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls a 2kw > > immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a scan > > time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the SCR as > > voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. > > > > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. > > > > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, > > sync and connect after five minutes. > > > > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV with > > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. > > > > Right? > > > > Mark Frye > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------ > > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 59 > ******************************************* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Wed Mar 4 11:59:57 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 08:59:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what would happen if I do this... In-Reply-To: References: <20200303105736.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.084abebff9.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <5ed4adcf-9ab2-69b6-2381-be57e9a3ae51@coveoregon.com> If using an ac battery charger to get power around the inverter to the batteries it would have to be rated for the full power of the PV array. Otherwise, you couldn't divert the full power of the array on the dc side. For a 24-volt battery, it would require a battery charger rated for over 80 amps. That alone seems risky with a 100Ah battery. To add to the difficulty of this approach the battery charger would add a delay time in the control loop that would almost certainly result in an unstable system. Kent Osterberg On 3/3/2020 7:53 PM, Jay wrote: > Or a charger such as Iota, or power max. > > Jay > Peltz power. > >> On Mar 3, 2020, at 7:24 PM, don at energysolarnow.com wrote: >> >>  >> You wrote that you would connect the Exeltech to just one of the >> service phases. >> But most GT inverters are 240 and require both phases. Is yours >> different? You did not mention which model it is. >> Also, as Kent Osterberg mentioned, the Exeltech will not charge its >> batteries from the AC output. >> Your scheme with the PLC controlling an SCR leaves unaddressed how >> any charge current gets directed into the batteries to allegedly >> raise their voltage. Is there a charger somewhere in this scheme? >> You still need some way to charge batteries from solar. How about >> connecting a charge controller to some of the solar panels? >> >> Don Barch >> Energy Solar >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 59 >> From: re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Date: Sun, March 01, 2020 2:19 pm >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." >> >> >> When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore >> the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any >> extraneous lines from the quoted message. >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (Mark Frye) >> 2. Re: OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (frenergy) >> 3. Re: OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (Kent Osterberg) >> 4. Re: OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (Jerry Shafer) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 15:27:32 -0800 >> From: Mark Frye > > >> To: RE-wrenches > > >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... >> Message-ID: >> <93731c38-40b5-7c63-1d74-a879fbdd9d74 at berkeleysolar.com >> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed >> >> I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. >> >> Suppose I: >> >> - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid >> >> - I open the PV breaker >> >> - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 >> to one >> of the phases of the service (120 VAC) >> >> - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter >> >> OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short >> period of >> time before the batteries get low >> >> -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I >> measure the >> battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls >> a 2kw >> immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a >> scan >> time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the >> SCR as >> voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. >> >> OK so far nothing has really changed from above. >> >> - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, >> sync and connect after five minutes. >> >> Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV >> with >> the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. >> >> Right? >> >> Mark Frye >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 06:26:27 -0800 >> From: frenergy > >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... >> Message-ID: > > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed >> >> Mark, >> >> ??? ??? ??? OR, you change-out your inverter to an SMA with Secure >> Power Supply and during grid power outage, while there is some >> sun on >> the panels, you would have up to 2KW of 120VAC power on the SPS >> circuit >> by just flipping a switch. We usually install a 4X outdoor box >> with a >> 120 VAC outlet ganged with a switch right under the inverter and >> let the >> customer run the power to the : frig, lights, battery charger, TV or >> whatever during an outage, though some romex could be run to >> close to >> the frig. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> On 2/29/2020 3:27 PM, Mark Frye wrote: >> > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. >> > >> > Suppose I: >> > >> > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid >> > >> > - I open the PV breaker >> > >> > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP >> 500 to >> > one of the phases of the service (120 VAC) >> > >> > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter >> > >> > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short >> period >> > of time before the batteries get low >> > >> > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I >> measure >> > the battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR >> controls a >> > 2kw immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC >> has a >> > scan time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle >> of the >> > SCR as voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. >> > >> > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. >> > >> > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery >> inverter, >> > sync and connect after five minutes. >> > >> > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT >> PV with >> > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. >> > >> > Right? >> > >> > Mark Frye >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> -- >> >> >> -- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 08:58:45 -0800 >> From: Kent Osterberg > > >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... >> Message-ID: <9e32901e-c5d4-ff70-9c44-406cc6d48d50 at coveoregon.com >> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed >> >> Mark, >> >> I believe that your plan would fail because you are forcing power to >> flow through the XP inverter backwards to charge the batteries. I >> don't >> believe the XP inverter can do that. The grid tied inverter would >> probably connect then immediately shut down, or connect and >> immediately >> ruin the XP inverter. It would work if you had a inverter with a >> bidirectional architecture like a Magnum, Outback, or Schneider >> inverter. But even then you'd have a hazardous situation because the >> cooling water is going to evaporate. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> >> On 2/29/2020 3:27 PM, Mark Frye wrote: >> > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. >> > >> > Suppose I: >> > >> > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid >> > >> > - I open the PV breaker >> > >> > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP >> 500 to >> > one of the phases of the service (120 VAC) >> > >> > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter >> > >> > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short >> period >> > of time before the batteries get low >> > >> > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I >> measure >> > the battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR >> controls a >> > 2kw immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC >> has a >> > scan time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle >> of the >> > SCR as voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. >> > >> > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. >> > >> > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery >> inverter, >> > sync and connect after five minutes. >> > >> > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT >> PV with >> > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. >> > >> > Right? >> > >> > Mark Frye >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 07:31:36 -1000 >> From: Jerry Shafer > > >> To: RE-wrenches > > >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... >> Message-ID: >> > > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Mark >> What you are saying is to AC couple but most likely this would >> fail as your >> battery fills not enough loads HBCO or to much loads and your >> battery does >> a LBCO, either way you would be better off spending the money in >> a maybe a >> Outback Skybox easy install and is high voltage PV input and even >> a small >> 48 volt bank but think about storage >> Jerry >> >> On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 1:27 PM Mark Frye >> > wrote: >> >> > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. >> > >> > Suppose I: >> > >> > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid >> > >> > - I open the PV breaker >> > >> > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP >> 500 to one >> > of the phases of the service (120 VAC) >> > >> > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter >> > >> > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short >> period of >> > time before the batteries get low >> > >> > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I >> measure the >> > battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR >> controls a 2kw >> > immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has >> a scan >> > time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the >> SCR as >> > voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. >> > >> > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. >> > >> > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery >> inverter, >> > sync and connect after five minutes. >> > >> > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT >> PV with >> > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. >> > >> > Right? >> > >> > Mark Frye >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 59 >> ******************************************* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 12:25:12 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 09:25:12 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what would happen if I do this... In-Reply-To: <5ed4adcf-9ab2-69b6-2381-be57e9a3ae51@coveoregon.com> References: <5ed4adcf-9ab2-69b6-2381-be57e9a3ae51@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: Hi Kent, Johns diversion load/controller would take have to take care of watts and ac voltage parameters. Jay > On Mar 4, 2020, at 9:00 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote: > >  If using an ac battery charger to get power around the inverter to the batteries it would have to be rated for the full power of the PV array. Otherwise, you couldn't divert the full power of the array on the dc side. For a 24-volt battery, it would require a battery charger rated for over 80 amps. That alone seems risky with a 100Ah battery. To add to the difficulty of this approach the battery charger would add a delay time in the control loop that would almost certainly result in an unstable system. > > Kent Osterberg > > >> On 3/3/2020 7:53 PM, Jay wrote: >> Or a charger such as Iota, or power max. >> >> Jay >> Peltz power. >> >>> On Mar 3, 2020, at 7:24 PM, don at energysolarnow.com wrote: >>> >>>  >>> You wrote that you would connect the Exeltech to just one of the service phases. >>> But most GT inverters are 240 and require both phases. Is yours different? You did not mention which model it is. >>> Also, as Kent Osterberg mentioned, the Exeltech will not charge its batteries from the AC output. >>> Your scheme with the PLC controlling an SCR leaves unaddressed how any charge current gets directed into the batteries to allegedly raise their voltage. Is there a charger somewhere in this scheme? >>> You still need some way to charge batteries from solar. How about connecting a charge controller to some of the solar panels? >>> >>> Don Barch >>> Energy Solar >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 59 >>> From: re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Date: Sun, March 01, 2020 2:19 pm >>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>> re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>> than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." >>> >>> >>> When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. >>> >>> >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (Mark Frye) >>> 2. Re: OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (frenergy) >>> 3. Re: OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (Kent Osterberg) >>> 4. Re: OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (Jerry Shafer) >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 15:27:32 -0800 >>> From: Mark Frye >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... >>> Message-ID: <93731c38-40b5-7c63-1d74-a879fbdd9d74 at berkeleysolar.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed >>> >>> I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. >>> >>> Suppose I: >>> >>> - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid >>> >>> - I open the PV breaker >>> >>> - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 to one >>> of the phases of the service (120 VAC) >>> >>> - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter >>> >>> OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short period of >>> time before the batteries get low >>> >>> -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I measure the >>> battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls a 2kw >>> immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a scan >>> time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the SCR as >>> voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. >>> >>> OK so far nothing has really changed from above. >>> >>> - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, >>> sync and connect after five minutes. >>> >>> Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV with >>> the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. >>> >>> Right? >>> >>> Mark Frye >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 2 >>> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 06:26:27 -0800 >>> From: frenergy >>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... >>> Message-ID: >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed >>> >>> Mark, >>> >>> ??? ??? ??? OR, you change-out your inverter to an SMA with Secure >>> Power Supply and during grid power outage, while there is some sun on >>> the panels, you would have up to 2KW of 120VAC power on the SPS circuit >>> by just flipping a switch. We usually install a 4X outdoor box with a >>> 120 VAC outlet ganged with a switch right under the inverter and let the >>> customer run the power to the : frig, lights, battery charger, TV or >>> whatever during an outage, though some romex could be run to close to >>> the frig. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> www.frenergy.net >>> >>> On 2/29/2020 3:27 PM, Mark Frye wrote: >>> > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. >>> > >>> > Suppose I: >>> > >>> > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid >>> > >>> > - I open the PV breaker >>> > >>> > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 to >>> > one of the phases of the service (120 VAC) >>> > >>> > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter >>> > >>> > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short period >>> > of time before the batteries get low >>> > >>> > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I measure >>> > the battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls a >>> > 2kw immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a >>> > scan time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the >>> > SCR as voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. >>> > >>> > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. >>> > >>> > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, >>> > sync and connect after five minutes. >>> > >>> > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV with >>> > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. >>> > >>> > Right? >>> > >>> > Mark Frye >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List-Archive: >>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > >>> -- >>> >>> >>> -- >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 3 >>> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 08:58:45 -0800 >>> From: Kent Osterberg >>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... >>> Message-ID: <9e32901e-c5d4-ff70-9c44-406cc6d48d50 at coveoregon.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed >>> >>> Mark, >>> >>> I believe that your plan would fail because you are forcing power to >>> flow through the XP inverter backwards to charge the batteries. I don't >>> believe the XP inverter can do that. The grid tied inverter would >>> probably connect then immediately shut down, or connect and immediately >>> ruin the XP inverter. It would work if you had a inverter with a >>> bidirectional architecture like a Magnum, Outback, or Schneider >>> inverter. But even then you'd have a hazardous situation because the >>> cooling water is going to evaporate. >>> >>> Kent Osterberg >>> Blue Mountain Solar >>> >>> >>> On 2/29/2020 3:27 PM, Mark Frye wrote: >>> > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. >>> > >>> > Suppose I: >>> > >>> > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid >>> > >>> > - I open the PV breaker >>> > >>> > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 to >>> > one of the phases of the service (120 VAC) >>> > >>> > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter >>> > >>> > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short period >>> > of time before the batteries get low >>> > >>> > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I measure >>> > the battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls a >>> > 2kw immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a >>> > scan time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the >>> > SCR as voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. >>> > >>> > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. >>> > >>> > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, >>> > sync and connect after five minutes. >>> > >>> > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV with >>> > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. >>> > >>> > Right? >>> > >>> > Mark Frye >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List-Archive: >>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 4 >>> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 07:31:36 -1000 >>> From: Jerry Shafer >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... >>> Message-ID: >>> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> Mark >>> What you are saying is to AC couple but most likely this would fail as your >>> battery fills not enough loads HBCO or to much loads and your battery does >>> a LBCO, either way you would be better off spending the money in a maybe a >>> Outback Skybox easy install and is high voltage PV input and even a small >>> 48 volt bank but think about storage >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 1:27 PM Mark Frye wrote: >>> >>> > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. >>> > >>> > Suppose I: >>> > >>> > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid >>> > >>> > - I open the PV breaker >>> > >>> > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 to one >>> > of the phases of the service (120 VAC) >>> > >>> > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter >>> > >>> > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short period of >>> > time before the batteries get low >>> > >>> > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I measure the >>> > battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls a 2kw >>> > immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a scan >>> > time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the SCR as >>> > voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. >>> > >>> > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. >>> > >>> > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, >>> > sync and connect after five minutes. >>> > >>> > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV with >>> > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. >>> > >>> > Right? >>> > >>> > Mark Frye >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List-Archive: >>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Subject: Digest Footer >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 59 >>> ******************************************* >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Wed Mar 4 13:21:35 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 10:21:35 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what would happen if I do this... In-Reply-To: References: <5ed4adcf-9ab2-69b6-2381-be57e9a3ae51@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: <712c5843-29c8-17a3-8982-4b6c4c91e98c@coveoregon.com> Jay, My point is that even if the diversion load can handle all of the watts and the PLC is fast enough to react to changes in the ac voltage, the system will probably still be unstable because the battery charger is in the control loop. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 3/4/2020 9:25 AM, Jay wrote: > Hi Kent, > > Johns diversion load/controller would take have to take care of watts > and ac voltage parameters. > > > > Jay > > > >> On Mar 4, 2020, at 9:00 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote: >> >>  If using an ac battery charger to get power around the inverter to >> the batteries it would have to be rated for the full power of the PV >> array. Otherwise, you couldn't divert the full power of the array on >> the dc side. For a 24-volt battery, it would require a battery >> charger rated for over 80 amps. That alone seems risky with a 100Ah >> battery. To add to the difficulty of this approach the battery >> charger would add a delay time in the control loop that would almost >> certainly result in an unstable system. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> >> >> On 3/3/2020 7:53 PM, Jay wrote: >>> Or a charger such as Iota, or power max. >>> >>> Jay >>> Peltz power. >>> >>>> On Mar 3, 2020, at 7:24 PM, don at energysolarnow.com wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> You wrote that you would connect the Exeltech to just one of the >>>> service phases. >>>> But most GT inverters are 240 and require both phases. Is yours >>>> different? You did not mention which model it is. >>>> Also, as Kent Osterberg mentioned, the Exeltech will not charge its >>>> batteries from the AC output. >>>> Your scheme with the PLC controlling an SCR leaves unaddressed how >>>> any charge current gets directed into the batteries to allegedly >>>> raise their voltage. Is there a charger somewhere in this scheme? >>>> You still need some way to charge batteries from solar. How about >>>> connecting a charge controller to some of the solar panels? >>>> >>>> Don Barch >>>> Energy Solar >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 59 >>>> From: re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Date: Sun, March 01, 2020 2:19 pm >>>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>> re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>>> re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>> than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." >>>> >>>> >>>> When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore >>>> the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any >>>> extraneous lines from the quoted message. >>>> >>>> >>>> Today's Topics: >>>> >>>> 1. OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (Mark Frye) >>>> 2. Re: OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (frenergy) >>>> 3. Re: OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (Kent Osterberg) >>>> 4. Re: OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (Jerry Shafer) >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 15:27:32 -0800 >>>> From: Mark Frye >>> > >>>> To: RE-wrenches >>> > >>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... >>>> Message-ID: >>>> <93731c38-40b5-7c63-1d74-a879fbdd9d74 at berkeleysolar.com >>>> > >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed >>>> >>>> I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. >>>> >>>> Suppose I: >>>> >>>> - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid >>>> >>>> - I open the PV breaker >>>> >>>> - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP >>>> 500 to one >>>> of the phases of the service (120 VAC) >>>> >>>> - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter >>>> >>>> OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short >>>> period of >>>> time before the batteries get low >>>> >>>> -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I >>>> measure the >>>> battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR >>>> controls a 2kw >>>> immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has >>>> a scan >>>> time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the >>>> SCR as >>>> voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. >>>> >>>> OK so far nothing has really changed from above. >>>> >>>> - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery >>>> inverter, >>>> sync and connect after five minutes. >>>> >>>> Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT >>>> PV with >>>> the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. >>>> >>>> Right? >>>> >>>> Mark Frye >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 2 >>>> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 06:26:27 -0800 >>>> From: frenergy > >>>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do >>>> this... >>>> Message-ID: >>> > >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed >>>> >>>> Mark, >>>> >>>> ??? ??? ??? OR, you change-out your inverter to an SMA with Secure >>>> Power Supply and during grid power outage, while there is some >>>> sun on >>>> the panels, you would have up to 2KW of 120VAC power on the SPS >>>> circuit >>>> by just flipping a switch. We usually install a 4X outdoor box >>>> with a >>>> 120 VAC outlet ganged with a switch right under the inverter >>>> and let the >>>> customer run the power to the : frig, lights, battery charger, >>>> TV or >>>> whatever during an outage, though some romex could be run to >>>> close to >>>> the frig. >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> Feather River Solar Electric >>>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>>> 4291 Nelson St. >>>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>>> 530.284.7849 >>>> CA Lic 874049 >>>> www.frenergy.net >>>> >>>> On 2/29/2020 3:27 PM, Mark Frye wrote: >>>> > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. >>>> > >>>> > Suppose I: >>>> > >>>> > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid >>>> > >>>> > - I open the PV breaker >>>> > >>>> > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP >>>> 500 to >>>> > one of the phases of the service (120 VAC) >>>> > >>>> > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter >>>> > >>>> > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively >>>> short period >>>> > of time before the batteries get low >>>> > >>>> > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I >>>> measure >>>> > the battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR >>>> controls a >>>> > 2kw immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The >>>> PLC has a >>>> > scan time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle >>>> of the >>>> > SCR as voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. >>>> > >>>> > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. >>>> > >>>> > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery >>>> inverter, >>>> > sync and connect after five minutes. >>>> > >>>> > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing >>>> GT PV with >>>> > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. >>>> > >>>> > Right? >>>> > >>>> > Mark Frye >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> > >>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> > >>>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> > >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > List-Archive: >>>> > >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> > >>>> > List rules & etiquette: >>>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> > >>>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus >>>> software. >>>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 3 >>>> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 08:58:45 -0800 >>>> From: Kent Osterberg >>> > >>>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do >>>> this... >>>> Message-ID: >>>> <9e32901e-c5d4-ff70-9c44-406cc6d48d50 at coveoregon.com >>>> > >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed >>>> >>>> Mark, >>>> >>>> I believe that your plan would fail because you are forcing >>>> power to >>>> flow through the XP inverter backwards to charge the batteries. >>>> I don't >>>> believe the XP inverter can do that. The grid tied inverter would >>>> probably connect then immediately shut down, or connect and >>>> immediately >>>> ruin the XP inverter. It would work if you had a inverter with a >>>> bidirectional architecture like a Magnum, Outback, or Schneider >>>> inverter. But even then you'd have a hazardous situation >>>> because the >>>> cooling water is going to evaporate. >>>> >>>> Kent Osterberg >>>> Blue Mountain Solar >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2/29/2020 3:27 PM, Mark Frye wrote: >>>> > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. >>>> > >>>> > Suppose I: >>>> > >>>> > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid >>>> > >>>> > - I open the PV breaker >>>> > >>>> > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP >>>> 500 to >>>> > one of the phases of the service (120 VAC) >>>> > >>>> > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter >>>> > >>>> > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively >>>> short period >>>> > of time before the batteries get low >>>> > >>>> > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I >>>> measure >>>> > the battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR >>>> controls a >>>> > 2kw immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The >>>> PLC has a >>>> > scan time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle >>>> of the >>>> > SCR as voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. >>>> > >>>> > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. >>>> > >>>> > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery >>>> inverter, >>>> > sync and connect after five minutes. >>>> > >>>> > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing >>>> GT PV with >>>> > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. >>>> > >>>> > Right? >>>> > >>>> > Mark Frye >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> > >>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> > >>>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> > >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > List-Archive: >>>> > >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> > >>>> > List rules & etiquette: >>>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> > >>>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 4 >>>> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 07:31:36 -1000 >>>> From: Jerry Shafer >>> > >>>> To: RE-wrenches >>> > >>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do >>>> this... >>>> Message-ID: >>>> >>> > >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> What you are saying is to AC couple but most likely this would >>>> fail as your >>>> battery fills not enough loads HBCO or to much loads and your >>>> battery does >>>> a LBCO, either way you would be better off spending the money >>>> in a maybe a >>>> Outback Skybox easy install and is high voltage PV input and >>>> even a small >>>> 48 volt bank but think about storage >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>> On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 1:27 PM Mark Frye >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. >>>> > >>>> > Suppose I: >>>> > >>>> > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid >>>> > >>>> > - I open the PV breaker >>>> > >>>> > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP >>>> 500 to one >>>> > of the phases of the service (120 VAC) >>>> > >>>> > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter >>>> > >>>> > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively >>>> short period of >>>> > time before the batteries get low >>>> > >>>> > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I >>>> measure the >>>> > battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR >>>> controls a 2kw >>>> > immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC >>>> has a scan >>>> > time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of >>>> the SCR as >>>> > voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. >>>> > >>>> > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. >>>> > >>>> > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery >>>> inverter, >>>> > sync and connect after five minutes. >>>> > >>>> > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing >>>> GT PV with >>>> > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. >>>> > >>>> > Right? >>>> > >>>> > Mark Frye >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> > >>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> > >>>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> > >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > List-Archive: >>>> > >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> > >>>> > List rules & etiquette: >>>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> > >>>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>> URL: >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Subject: Digest Footer >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 59 >>>> ******************************************* >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarguy2004 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 14:58:28 2020 From: solarguy2004 at gmail.com (Jim Duncan) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 13:58:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? In-Reply-To: <3E57147D-F307-4E23-B2BD-386F1DAE70BE@mavericksolar.com> References: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> <3E57147D-F307-4E23-B2BD-386F1DAE70BE@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: One other suggestion is, whatever internal combustion device you have, switch at first oil change to 100% full synthetic engine lube and never go back. Guaranteed 50% longer between changes and far better performance. My 2 ¢... *Jim Duncan Solar Acres Farm 817.917.0527 solarguy2004 at gmail.com* On 2/27/2020 9:24 PM, Maverick Brown wrote: > Ray > > Your list mirrors mine. > > Never. Ever. Ever. Buy or believe you’ll get support of any kind from Generac. I fell for the lure of the ECO GEN and it ate itself one night while helping our off grid home get through a hot cloudy summer day. > > For my off grid experience since 2005, I would vote for: > > 1. For Big Systems, I’d vote for a Cummins 1800 water cooled unit. 20kw is great genny for a double stack or more of Radians. They work. Period. After a few tries, a couple customers agreed to water cooled and life is grand. > > Kohler RES-14 and RES-20 air-cooled units have also been great. For those customers there are big battery banks and the generator is less needed. > > 2. Kubota GL11000 or GL7000. I have a few in my customer group. I have the GL6000 at my shop. It can be made auto start. Diesel is man-potable. They always start and run and they are water cooled even though they are 3600 rpms, they are quiet. > > 3. Honda inverter generators. I have several customers with different wattages. I love these. Won’t do much good to put a EU2000i on a 2400Ah bank, but the EU7000i can be auto started in some climates with a 3-wire controller like a XW-AGS. Keep the oil changed. > > Also. The key here is use vs capacity for use. If you design a system that needs the generator to run every. single. day., you might want to spec a generator that costs more than the solar array. Or have enough battery for a 8x load and solar for 2x or more. > > The old adage you get what you pay for is still valid in the off grid world. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > >> On Feb 27, 2020, at 4:25 PM, Ray wrote: >> >> I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be disappointed with the Generac Ecogen. Very high failure rate, and support is poor. Service requires expensive on site service. Also the no load AC draw and programming setup is just not off grid ready at all. I'm still not seeing any other great choices, though. Here's some other possibilities: >> >> 1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with Honda motor. Not the best choice especially for autostart, no propane, but at least they can take it in to the shop if it goes down. >> >> 2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather start issues? >> >> 3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model. Overkill, expensive, but probably will last a really long time. >> >> 4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand. Kohler used to be great, but now a days I'm not so sure. >> >> I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been giving other customers trouble. Any new ideas on this age old problem? >> >> -- >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 13:59:25 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 10:59:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what would happen if I do this... In-Reply-To: <712c5843-29c8-17a3-8982-4b6c4c91e98c@coveoregon.com> References: <712c5843-29c8-17a3-8982-4b6c4c91e98c@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: <79061754-139C-4EE5-A328-F185C662FE95@gmail.com> I’m not sure I agree. The battery charger is just another load to his other loads. They will cycle on and off. The whole design is sort of cobbled. I’m guessing that John is looking for a fun project. Jay > On Mar 4, 2020, at 10:21 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote: > >  Jay, > > My point is that even if the diversion load can handle all of the watts and the PLC is fast enough to react to changes in the ac voltage, the system will probably still be unstable because the battery charger is in the control loop. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > >> On 3/4/2020 9:25 AM, Jay wrote: >> Hi Kent, >> >> Johns diversion load/controller would take have to take care of watts and ac voltage parameters. >> >> >> >> Jay >> >> >> >>> On Mar 4, 2020, at 9:00 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote: >>> >>>  If using an ac battery charger to get power around the inverter to the batteries it would have to be rated for the full power of the PV array. Otherwise, you couldn't divert the full power of the array on the dc side. For a 24-volt battery, it would require a battery charger rated for over 80 amps. That alone seems risky with a 100Ah battery. To add to the difficulty of this approach the battery charger would add a delay time in the control loop that would almost certainly result in an unstable system. >>> >>> Kent Osterberg >>> >>> >>>> On 3/3/2020 7:53 PM, Jay wrote: >>>> Or a charger such as Iota, or power max. >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> Peltz power. >>>> >>>>> On Mar 3, 2020, at 7:24 PM, don at energysolarnow.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> You wrote that you would connect the Exeltech to just one of the service phases. >>>>> But most GT inverters are 240 and require both phases. Is yours different? You did not mention which model it is. >>>>> Also, as Kent Osterberg mentioned, the Exeltech will not charge its batteries from the AC output. >>>>> Your scheme with the PLC controlling an SCR leaves unaddressed how any charge current gets directed into the batteries to allegedly raise their voltage. Is there a charger somewhere in this scheme? >>>>> You still need some way to charge batteries from solar. How about connecting a charge controller to some of the solar panels? >>>>> >>>>> Don Barch >>>>> Energy Solar >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 59 >>>>> From: re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> Date: Sun, March 01, 2020 2:19 pm >>>>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>>> re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>>>> re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>>> than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Today's Topics: >>>>> >>>>> 1. OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (Mark Frye) >>>>> 2. Re: OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (frenergy) >>>>> 3. Re: OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (Kent Osterberg) >>>>> 4. Re: OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (Jerry Shafer) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> Message: 1 >>>>> Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 15:27:32 -0800 >>>>> From: Mark Frye >>>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... >>>>> Message-ID: <93731c38-40b5-7c63-1d74-a879fbdd9d74 at berkeleysolar.com> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed >>>>> >>>>> I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. >>>>> >>>>> Suppose I: >>>>> >>>>> - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid >>>>> >>>>> - I open the PV breaker >>>>> >>>>> - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 to one >>>>> of the phases of the service (120 VAC) >>>>> >>>>> - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter >>>>> >>>>> OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short period of >>>>> time before the batteries get low >>>>> >>>>> -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I measure the >>>>> battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls a 2kw >>>>> immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a scan >>>>> time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the SCR as >>>>> voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. >>>>> >>>>> OK so far nothing has really changed from above. >>>>> >>>>> - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, >>>>> sync and connect after five minutes. >>>>> >>>>> Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV with >>>>> the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. >>>>> >>>>> Right? >>>>> >>>>> Mark Frye >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> Message: 2 >>>>> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 06:26:27 -0800 >>>>> From: frenergy >>>>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... >>>>> Message-ID: >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed >>>>> >>>>> Mark, >>>>> >>>>> ??? ??? ??? OR, you change-out your inverter to an SMA with Secure >>>>> Power Supply and during grid power outage, while there is some sun on >>>>> the panels, you would have up to 2KW of 120VAC power on the SPS circuit >>>>> by just flipping a switch. We usually install a 4X outdoor box with a >>>>> 120 VAC outlet ganged with a switch right under the inverter and let the >>>>> customer run the power to the : frig, lights, battery charger, TV or >>>>> whatever during an outage, though some romex could be run to close to >>>>> the frig. >>>>> >>>>> Bill >>>>> >>>>> Feather River Solar Electric >>>>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>>>> 4291 Nelson St. >>>>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>>>> 530.284.7849 >>>>> CA Lic 874049 >>>>> www.frenergy.net >>>>> >>>>> On 2/29/2020 3:27 PM, Mark Frye wrote: >>>>> > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. >>>>> > >>>>> > Suppose I: >>>>> > >>>>> > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid >>>>> > >>>>> > - I open the PV breaker >>>>> > >>>>> > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 to >>>>> > one of the phases of the service (120 VAC) >>>>> > >>>>> > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter >>>>> > >>>>> > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short period >>>>> > of time before the batteries get low >>>>> > >>>>> > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I measure >>>>> > the battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls a >>>>> > 2kw immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a >>>>> > scan time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the >>>>> > SCR as voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. >>>>> > >>>>> > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. >>>>> > >>>>> > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, >>>>> > sync and connect after five minutes. >>>>> > >>>>> > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV with >>>>> > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. >>>>> > >>>>> > Right? >>>>> > >>>>> > Mark Frye >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> > >>>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > List-Archive: >>>>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> > >>>>> > List rules & etiquette: >>>>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> > >>>>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>>>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> Message: 3 >>>>> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 08:58:45 -0800 >>>>> From: Kent Osterberg >>>>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... >>>>> Message-ID: <9e32901e-c5d4-ff70-9c44-406cc6d48d50 at coveoregon.com> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed >>>>> >>>>> Mark, >>>>> >>>>> I believe that your plan would fail because you are forcing power to >>>>> flow through the XP inverter backwards to charge the batteries. I don't >>>>> believe the XP inverter can do that. The grid tied inverter would >>>>> probably connect then immediately shut down, or connect and immediately >>>>> ruin the XP inverter. It would work if you had a inverter with a >>>>> bidirectional architecture like a Magnum, Outback, or Schneider >>>>> inverter. But even then you'd have a hazardous situation because the >>>>> cooling water is going to evaporate. >>>>> >>>>> Kent Osterberg >>>>> Blue Mountain Solar >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 2/29/2020 3:27 PM, Mark Frye wrote: >>>>> > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. >>>>> > >>>>> > Suppose I: >>>>> > >>>>> > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid >>>>> > >>>>> > - I open the PV breaker >>>>> > >>>>> > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 to >>>>> > one of the phases of the service (120 VAC) >>>>> > >>>>> > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter >>>>> > >>>>> > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short period >>>>> > of time before the batteries get low >>>>> > >>>>> > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I measure >>>>> > the battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls a >>>>> > 2kw immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a >>>>> > scan time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the >>>>> > SCR as voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. >>>>> > >>>>> > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. >>>>> > >>>>> > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, >>>>> > sync and connect after five minutes. >>>>> > >>>>> > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV with >>>>> > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. >>>>> > >>>>> > Right? >>>>> > >>>>> > Mark Frye >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> > >>>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > List-Archive: >>>>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> > >>>>> > List rules & etiquette: >>>>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> > >>>>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> Message: 4 >>>>> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 07:31:36 -1000 >>>>> From: Jerry Shafer >>>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... >>>>> Message-ID: >>>>> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>>> >>>>> Mark >>>>> What you are saying is to AC couple but most likely this would fail as your >>>>> battery fills not enough loads HBCO or to much loads and your battery does >>>>> a LBCO, either way you would be better off spending the money in a maybe a >>>>> Outback Skybox easy install and is high voltage PV input and even a small >>>>> 48 volt bank but think about storage >>>>> Jerry >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 1:27 PM Mark Frye wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. >>>>> > >>>>> > Suppose I: >>>>> > >>>>> > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid >>>>> > >>>>> > - I open the PV breaker >>>>> > >>>>> > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 to one >>>>> > of the phases of the service (120 VAC) >>>>> > >>>>> > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter >>>>> > >>>>> > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short period of >>>>> > time before the batteries get low >>>>> > >>>>> > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I measure the >>>>> > battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls a 2kw >>>>> > immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a scan >>>>> > time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the SCR as >>>>> > voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. >>>>> > >>>>> > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. >>>>> > >>>>> > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, >>>>> > sync and connect after five minutes. >>>>> > >>>>> > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV with >>>>> > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. >>>>> > >>>>> > Right? >>>>> > >>>>> > Mark Frye >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> > >>>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > List-Archive: >>>>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> > >>>>> > List rules & etiquette: >>>>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> > >>>>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>>> URL: >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Digest Footer >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 59 >>>>> ******************************************* >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at getpimby.com Wed Mar 4 19:07:33 2020 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matthew Sherald) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 19:07:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? In-Reply-To: References: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> Message-ID: I’ve enjoyed following this thread. Just today a customer with a Generac wrote to update me on a long anticipated control board replacement that ended with the discovery of a shot bearing and the need for more work/downtime. I have another customer (whom I inherited) who has had a stationary Winco brand generator for ten years or more. His experience with the Winco has been a good one and I see that the company has some 8 and 12k units offered for prime power. I’d welcome any opinions on the reliability/suitability of the Winco brand for off-grid homeowners. My initial impression has been positive, but my experience with them is limited. -Matt Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 3, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > > Ray, > Let me try to address some of those issues for you. > 1) You can get the activation code before you take it to site, you just need the serial number. Generac has a good warranty policy but they need to know where the generator is and when it is installed to be able to provide that. > 2) An electrician can connect the wires but you would not believe the installations we have seen, done by licensed electricians. We have a dealer forum where installers post pictures of installations they find, and the mistakes are criminal and dangerous. I once found a propane 20KW generator running side a shipping container, doors closed. > 3) Generac does not do direct support for generators, they require customers call a dealer. The dealer can then call Generac, and often does. I can't even call them if my certification expires. > 4) If the generator is under warranty, you may not pay anything, depending on the coverage. Generac is offering up to ten year warranties. But once it is out of warranty, you will have to pay. Dealers don't work for free. The average electrician won't be able to diagnose problems reliably on these generators. > The residential air cooled generators are very reliable and rarely have problems if well maintained. Techs should be traveling with common parts, I bring a controller and a few other parts so I can solve the problem in one go. > Blown engines are rare, but they do happen. Generally in the first few hours, so under full warranty and replacement is generally done at Generac's expense. > If you do have issues, contact me and I will try to help you. > > > > > > > > > > >> On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 4:41 PM Ray wrote: >> Some of the issues have been Generac not providing a simple wiring schematic, nor simply labeling the 2 start wires. 2nd is requiring either internet connection or a call in to get the start code. Both have been very problematic in remote locations with no phone service. Totally unnecessary. We don't need a Generac tech just to connect wires, I'm the licensed electrician. Last time I called Generac, (control error not listed in the manual) they insisted I needed to call in a service tech, and offered zero trouble shooting. I fixed the problem by pulling the fuse and resetting the controller. 3rd, service requires a long expensive trip by the service tech, who then diagnoses the problem, has to order the parts and return weeks later. This means every issue takes 2 round trips to resolve. If its a bigger issue, it requires a truck lift to haul the 500 lb unit in to the shop. We're hearing $500 just to get the generator to the shop, then another $500 to reinstall it after. >> >> Failures have included several catastrophic engine failures, blowing oil every where, some of these have been in the first few hundred hours. Lots of control issues, one recently had voltage that varied from 90 to 130, 45 to 70 Hz, and the inverter wouldn't even connect to it. >> >> I quit selling generators a long time ago, because I didn't want the service liability. I'm not a mechanic, and I don't want to be. I do however, need a generator I can recommend in good faith. The Ecogen has made us look pretty bad. Glad I didn't sell them, but then I've seen some large water cooled unit that worked well. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >>> On 2/28/20 5:14 AM, Chris Mason wrote: >>> Ray, >>> I'm a Generac dealer. Why are you having support problems? Generac has a large dealer network, if the unit is under warranty you should have no problem getting it fixed. Did you buy through a dealer and have them install it? Why are the services expensive? >>> >>> What failures are you seeing? >>> >>> There is a hole in the market for products in this application. Virtually no-one makes an affordable ~10KW diesel enclosed 2 wire start 1,800 rpm reliable diesel generator. I once ordered, on spec, a 9KW Perkins engine liquid cooled enclosed diesel from a factory in China I deal with. I sold it to a customer that ran it 18 hours a day on 100% load, to power his restaurant refrigeration outside service hours. It lasted him years, it must have thousands of hours on it. >>> I think the big problem in the US is getting permits for diesel generators. >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 6:25 PM Ray wrote: >>>> I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be >>>> disappointed with the Generac Ecogen. Very high failure rate, and >>>> support is poor. Service requires expensive on site service. Also the >>>> no load AC draw and programming setup is just not off grid ready at >>>> all. I'm still not seeing any other great choices, though. Here's some >>>> other possibilities: >>>> >>>> 1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with Honda >>>> motor. Not the best choice especially for autostart, no propane, but at >>>> least they can take it in to the shop if it goes down. >>>> >>>> 2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather start issues? >>>> >>>> 3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model. Overkill, expensive, >>>> but probably will last a really long time. >>>> >>>> 4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand. Kohler used to be >>>> great, but now a days I'm not so sure. >>>> >>>> I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been giving other >>>> customers trouble. Any new ideas on this age old problem? >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Chris Mason >>> Solar systems designer >>> Generac Generators Industrial technician >>> >>> Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar >>> Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 >>> WhatsApp 264.235.5670 >>> Skype: netconcepts >>> www.cometsolar.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > -- > Chris Mason > Solar systems designer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar > Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 > WhatsApp 264.235.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > www.cometsolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Wed Mar 4 19:08:05 2020 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 00:08:05 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what would happen if I do this... In-Reply-To: <79061754-139C-4EE5-A328-F185C662FE95@gmail.com> References: <712c5843-29c8-17a3-8982-4b6c4c91e98c@coveoregon.com>, <79061754-139C-4EE5-A328-F185C662FE95@gmail.com> Message-ID: Mark, Sorry, I just barely joined the conversation... This is an interesting idea/project. You have a couple of obstacles... The first and biggest one is what Don said... unless you have a relatively rare 120V PV inverter, you're going to need 240 to the PV inverter. Now, this could be accomplished with a balancing transformer or a 2:1 transformer. Now any battery-based inverter can be AC coupled, but if (as in this case) it's not rated for AC coupling, then it doesn't have the controls to protect itself or the battery. The PLC that monitors the battery voltage and runs the diversion load should work fine for protecting the batteries (so long as the water in the electric heater doesn't boil away, and there's no thermostat to turn off the diversion load). The only missing link is protecting the battery inverter. This inverter is only rated to pass 500W through, but if the battery is really low, and then the sun comes out, the PV inverter may try to push 2kW through the inverter into the battery. Since the battery is really low, your PLC won't activate the diversion controller in time. This could potentially fry the inverter. Now, perhaps, in addition to monitoring the battery voltage, if your PLC was also monitoring the current going into the inverter on the AC outputs, then your PLC could activate the diversion load in order to prevent more than perhaps 300W from back-feeding into the inverter (to give you a safety margin). Assuming that the PLC works correctly and never has any bugs, then this should work out just fine. Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jay Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 11:59 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what would happen if I do this... I’m not sure I agree. The battery charger is just another load to his other loads. They will cycle on and off. The whole design is sort of cobbled. I’m guessing that John is looking for a fun project. Jay On Mar 4, 2020, at 10:21 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote:  Jay, My point is that even if the diversion load can handle all of the watts and the PLC is fast enough to react to changes in the ac voltage, the system will probably still be unstable because the battery charger is in the control loop. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 3/4/2020 9:25 AM, Jay wrote: Hi Kent, Johns diversion load/controller would take have to take care of watts and ac voltage parameters. Jay On Mar 4, 2020, at 9:00 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote:  If using an ac battery charger to get power around the inverter to the batteries it would have to be rated for the full power of the PV array. Otherwise, you couldn't divert the full power of the array on the dc side. For a 24-volt battery, it would require a battery charger rated for over 80 amps. That alone seems risky with a 100Ah battery. To add to the difficulty of this approach the battery charger would add a delay time in the control loop that would almost certainly result in an unstable system. Kent Osterberg On 3/3/2020 7:53 PM, Jay wrote: Or a charger such as Iota, or power max. Jay Peltz power. On Mar 3, 2020, at 7:24 PM, don at energysolarnow.com wrote:  You wrote that you would connect the Exeltech to just one of the service phases. But most GT inverters are 240 and require both phases. Is yours different? You did not mention which model it is. Also, as Kent Osterberg mentioned, the Exeltech will not charge its batteries from the AC output. Your scheme with the PLC controlling an SCR leaves unaddressed how any charge current gets directed into the batteries to allegedly raise their voltage. Is there a charger somewhere in this scheme? You still need some way to charge batteries from solar. How about connecting a charge controller to some of the solar panels? Don Barch Energy Solar -------- Original Message -------- Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 59 From: re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Sun, March 01, 2020 2:19 pm To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org You can reach the person managing the list at re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. Today's Topics: 1. OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (Mark Frye) 2. Re: OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (frenergy) 3. Re: OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (Kent Osterberg) 4. Re: OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (Jerry Shafer) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 15:27:32 -0800 From: Mark Frye > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... Message-ID: <93731c38-40b5-7c63-1d74-a879fbdd9d74 at berkeleysolar.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. Suppose I: - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid - I open the PV breaker - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 to one of the phases of the service (120 VAC) - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short period of time before the batteries get low -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I measure the battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls a 2kw immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a scan time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the SCR as voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. OK so far nothing has really changed from above. - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, sync and connect after five minutes. Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV with the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. Right? Mark Frye ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 06:26:27 -0800 From: frenergy > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Mark, ??? ??? ??? OR, you change-out your inverter to an SMA with Secure Power Supply and during grid power outage, while there is some sun on the panels, you would have up to 2KW of 120VAC power on the SPS circuit by just flipping a switch. We usually install a 4X outdoor box with a 120 VAC outlet ganged with a switch right under the inverter and let the customer run the power to the : frig, lights, battery charger, TV or whatever during an outage, though some romex could be run to close to the frig. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 2/29/2020 3:27 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. > > Suppose I: > > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid > > - I open the PV breaker > > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 to > one of the phases of the service (120 VAC) > > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter > > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short period > of time before the batteries get low > > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I measure > the battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls a > 2kw immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a > scan time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the > SCR as voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. > > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. > > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, > sync and connect after five minutes. > > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV with > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. > > Right? > > Mark Frye > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 08:58:45 -0800 From: Kent Osterberg > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... Message-ID: <9e32901e-c5d4-ff70-9c44-406cc6d48d50 at coveoregon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Mark, I believe that your plan would fail because you are forcing power to flow through the XP inverter backwards to charge the batteries. I don't believe the XP inverter can do that. The grid tied inverter would probably connect then immediately shut down, or connect and immediately ruin the XP inverter. It would work if you had a inverter with a bidirectional architecture like a Magnum, Outback, or Schneider inverter. But even then you'd have a hazardous situation because the cooling water is going to evaporate. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 2/29/2020 3:27 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. > > Suppose I: > > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid > > - I open the PV breaker > > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 to > one of the phases of the service (120 VAC) > > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter > > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short period > of time before the batteries get low > > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I measure > the battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls a > 2kw immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a > scan time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the > SCR as voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. > > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. > > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, > sync and connect after five minutes. > > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV with > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. > > Right? > > Mark Frye > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 07:31:36 -1000 From: Jerry Shafer > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mark What you are saying is to AC couple but most likely this would fail as your battery fills not enough loads HBCO or to much loads and your battery does a LBCO, either way you would be better off spending the money in a maybe a Outback Skybox easy install and is high voltage PV input and even a small 48 volt bank but think about storage Jerry On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 1:27 PM Mark Frye > wrote: > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. > > Suppose I: > > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid > > - I open the PV breaker > > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 to one > of the phases of the service (120 VAC) > > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter > > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short period of > time before the batteries get low > > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I measure the > battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls a 2kw > immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a scan > time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the SCR as > voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. > > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. > > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, > sync and connect after five minutes. > > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV with > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. > > Right? > > Mark Frye > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------ End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 59 ******************************************* _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 19:20:57 2020 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 16:20:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what would happen if I do this... In-Reply-To: References: <712c5843-29c8-17a3-8982-4b6c4c91e98c@coveoregon.com> <79061754-139C-4EE5-A328-F185C662FE95@gmail.com> Message-ID: My hunch is that the anti-islanding in the grid tie inverter is going to push the little battery inverter out of spec, even with a diversion load, and they will never connect. But I'd be very interested to see if that is so if someone tries it. Brad AEE Solar On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 4:08 PM Kienan Maxfield wrote: > Mark, > > Sorry, I just barely joined the conversation... This is an interesting > idea/project. You have a couple of obstacles... The first and biggest one > is what Don said... unless you have a relatively rare 120V PV inverter, > you're going to need 240 to the PV inverter. Now, this could be > accomplished with a balancing transformer or a 2:1 transformer. > > Now any battery-based inverter *can* be AC coupled, but if (as in this > case) it's not rated for AC coupling, then it doesn't have the controls to > protect itself or the battery. The PLC that monitors the battery voltage > and runs the diversion load should work fine for protecting the batteries > (so long as the water in the electric heater doesn't boil away, and there's > no thermostat to turn off the diversion load). The only missing link is > protecting the battery inverter. This inverter is only rated to pass 500W > through, but if the battery is really low, and then the sun comes out, the > PV inverter may try to push 2kW through the inverter into the battery. > Since the battery is really low, your PLC won't activate the diversion > controller in time. This could potentially fry the inverter. > > Now, perhaps, in addition to monitoring the battery voltage, if your PLC > was also monitoring the current going into the inverter on the AC outputs, > then your PLC could activate the diversion load in order to prevent more > than perhaps 300W from back-feeding into the inverter (to give you a safety > margin). Assuming that the PLC works correctly and never has any bugs, then > this should work out just fine. > > Thanks, > Kienan > > *Maxfield Solar* > *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* > * (801) 631-5584 (Cell) * > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Jay > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 4, 2020 11:59 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what would happen if I do this... > > I’m not sure I agree. The battery charger is just another load to his > other loads. > They will cycle on and off. > > The whole design is sort of cobbled. I’m guessing that John is looking for > a fun project. > > Jay > > On Mar 4, 2020, at 10:21 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote: > >  Jay, > > My point is that even if the diversion load can handle all of the watts > and the PLC is fast enough to react to changes in the ac voltage, the > system will probably still be unstable because the battery charger is in > the control loop. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > > On 3/4/2020 9:25 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi Kent, > > Johns diversion load/controller would take have to take care of watts and > ac voltage parameters. > > > > Jay > > > > On Mar 4, 2020, at 9:00 AM, Kent Osterberg > wrote: > >  If using an ac battery charger to get power around the inverter to the > batteries it would have to be rated for the full power of the PV array. > Otherwise, you couldn't divert the full power of the array on the dc side. > For a 24-volt battery, it would require a battery charger rated for over 80 > amps. That alone seems risky with a 100Ah battery. To add to the difficulty > of this approach the battery charger would add a delay time in the control > loop that would almost certainly result in an unstable system. > > Kent Osterberg > > > On 3/3/2020 7:53 PM, Jay wrote: > > Or a charger such as Iota, or power max. > > Jay > Peltz power. > > On Mar 3, 2020, at 7:24 PM, don at energysolarnow.com wrote: > >  > You wrote that you would connect the Exeltech to just one of the service > phases. > But most GT inverters are 240 and require both phases. Is yours different? > You did not mention which model it is. > Also, as Kent Osterberg mentioned, the Exeltech will not charge its > batteries from the AC output. > Your scheme with the PLC controlling an SCR leaves unaddressed how any > charge current gets directed into the batteries to allegedly raise their > voltage. Is there a charger somewhere in this scheme? > You still need some way to charge batteries from solar. How about > connecting a charge controller to some of the solar panels? > > Don Barch > Energy Solar > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 59 > From: re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > Date: Sun, March 01, 2020 2:19 pm > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." > > > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the > Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines > from the quoted message. > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (Mark Frye) > 2. Re: OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (frenergy) > 3. Re: OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (Kent Osterberg) > 4. Re: OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... (Jerry Shafer) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 15:27:32 -0800 > From: Mark Frye > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... > Message-ID: <93731c38-40b5-7c63-1d74-a879fbdd9d74 at berkeleysolar.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. > > Suppose I: > > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid > > - I open the PV breaker > > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 to one > of the phases of the service (120 VAC) > > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter > > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short period of > time before the batteries get low > > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I measure the > battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls a 2kw > immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a scan > time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the SCR as > voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. > > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. > > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, > sync and connect after five minutes. > > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV with > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. > > Right? > > Mark Frye > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 06:26:27 -0800 > From: frenergy > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > Mark, > > ??? ??? ??? OR, you change-out your inverter to an SMA with Secure > Power Supply and during grid power outage, while there is some sun on > the panels, you would have up to 2KW of 120VAC power on the SPS circuit > by just flipping a switch. We usually install a 4X outdoor box with a > 120 VAC outlet ganged with a switch right under the inverter and let the > customer run the power to the : frig, lights, battery charger, TV or > whatever during an outage, though some romex could be run to close to > the frig. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > On 2/29/2020 3:27 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. > > > > Suppose I: > > > > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid > > > > - I open the PV breaker > > > > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 to > > one of the phases of the service (120 VAC) > > > > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter > > > > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short period > > of time before the batteries get low > > > > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I measure > > the battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls a > > 2kw immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a > > scan time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the > > SCR as voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. > > > > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. > > > > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, > > sync and connect after five minutes. > > > > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV with > > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. > > > > Right? > > > > Mark Frye > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 08:58:45 -0800 > From: Kent Osterberg > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... > Message-ID: <9e32901e-c5d4-ff70-9c44-406cc6d48d50 at coveoregon.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > Mark, > > I believe that your plan would fail because you are forcing power to > flow through the XP inverter backwards to charge the batteries. I don't > believe the XP inverter can do that. The grid tied inverter would > probably connect then immediately shut down, or connect and immediately > ruin the XP inverter. It would work if you had a inverter with a > bidirectional architecture like a Magnum, Outback, or Schneider > inverter. But even then you'd have a hazardous situation because the > cooling water is going to evaporate. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 2/29/2020 3:27 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. > > > > Suppose I: > > > > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid > > > > - I open the PV breaker > > > > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 to > > one of the phases of the service (120 VAC) > > > > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter > > > > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short period > > of time before the batteries get low > > > > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I measure > > the battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls a > > 2kw immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a > > scan time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the > > SCR as voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. > > > > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. > > > > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, > > sync and connect after five minutes. > > > > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV with > > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. > > > > Right? > > > > Mark Frye > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 07:31:36 -1000 > From: Jerry Shafer > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this... > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Mark > What you are saying is to AC couple but most likely this would fail as your > battery fills not enough loads HBCO or to much loads and your battery does > a LBCO, either way you would be better off spending the money in a maybe a > Outback Skybox easy install and is high voltage PV input and even a small > 48 volt bank but think about storage > Jerry > > On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 1:27 PM Mark Frye wrote: > > > I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house. > > > > Suppose I: > > > > - Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid > > > > - I open the PV breaker > > > > - I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 to one > > of the phases of the service (120 VAC) > > > > - I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter > > > > OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short period of > > time before the batteries get low > > > > -I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I measure the > > battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls a 2kw > > immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a scan > > time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the SCR as > > voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC. > > > > OK so far nothing has really changed from above. > > > > - I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, > > sync and connect after five minutes. > > > > Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV with > > the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater. > > > > Right? > > > > Mark Frye > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20200301/a993182d/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------ > > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 59 > ******************************************* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 19:47:56 2020 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 16:47:56 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <582DF708-C5C2-4881-B094-2DB705E3457F@gmail.com> That Isuzu-Stamford-Deap Sea mating has been time tested and proven by other manufactures. Growers run them nearly continuously for years and years. Perfect for off-grid. > On Mar 4, 2020, at 4:07 PM, Matthew Sherald wrote: > > I’ve enjoyed following this thread. Just today a customer with a Generac wrote to update me on a long anticipated control board replacement that ended with the discovery of a shot bearing and the need for more work/downtime. > > I have another customer (whom I inherited) who has had a stationary Winco brand generator for ten years or more. His experience with the Winco has been a good one and I see that the company has some 8 and 12k units offered for prime power. > I’d welcome any opinions on the reliability/suitability of the Winco brand for off-grid homeowners. My initial impression has been positive, but my experience with them is limited. > > -Matt > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 3, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Chris Mason wrote: >> >> Ray, >> Let me try to address some of those issues for you. >> 1) You can get the activation code before you take it to site, you just need the serial number. Generac has a good warranty policy but they need to know where the generator is and when it is installed to be able to provide that. >> 2) An electrician can connect the wires but you would not believe the installations we have seen, done by licensed electricians. We have a dealer forum where installers post pictures of installations they find, and the mistakes are criminal and dangerous. I once found a propane 20KW generator running side a shipping container, doors closed. >> 3) Generac does not do direct support for generators, they require customers call a dealer. The dealer can then call Generac, and often does. I can't even call them if my certification expires. >> 4) If the generator is under warranty, you may not pay anything, depending on the coverage. Generac is offering up to ten year warranties. But once it is out of warranty, you will have to pay. Dealers don't work for free. The average electrician won't be able to diagnose problems reliably on these generators. >> The residential air cooled generators are very reliable and rarely have problems if well maintained. Techs should be traveling with common parts, I bring a controller and a few other parts so I can solve the problem in one go. >> Blown engines are rare, but they do happen. Generally in the first few hours, so under full warranty and replacement is generally done at Generac's expense. >> If you do have issues, contact me and I will try to help you. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 4:41 PM Ray wrote: >>> Some of the issues have been Generac not providing a simple wiring schematic, nor simply labeling the 2 start wires. 2nd is requiring either internet connection or a call in to get the start code. Both have been very problematic in remote locations with no phone service. Totally unnecessary. We don't need a Generac tech just to connect wires, I'm the licensed electrician. Last time I called Generac, (control error not listed in the manual) they insisted I needed to call in a service tech, and offered zero trouble shooting. I fixed the problem by pulling the fuse and resetting the controller. 3rd, service requires a long expensive trip by the service tech, who then diagnoses the problem, has to order the parts and return weeks later. This means every issue takes 2 round trips to resolve. If its a bigger issue, it requires a truck lift to haul the 500 lb unit in to the shop. We're hearing $500 just to get the generator to the shop, then another $500 to reinstall it after. >>> >>> Failures have included several catastrophic engine failures, blowing oil every where, some of these have been in the first few hundred hours. Lots of control issues, one recently had voltage that varied from 90 to 130, 45 to 70 Hz, and the inverter wouldn't even connect to it. >>> >>> I quit selling generators a long time ago, because I didn't want the service liability. I'm not a mechanic, and I don't want to be. I do however, need a generator I can recommend in good faith. The Ecogen has made us look pretty bad. Glad I didn't sell them, but then I've seen some large water cooled unit that worked well. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>>> On 2/28/20 5:14 AM, Chris Mason wrote: >>>> Ray, >>>> I'm a Generac dealer. Why are you having support problems? Generac has a large dealer network, if the unit is under warranty you should have no problem getting it fixed. Did you buy through a dealer and have them install it? Why are the services expensive? >>>> >>>> What failures are you seeing? >>>> >>>> There is a hole in the market for products in this application. Virtually no-one makes an affordable ~10KW diesel enclosed 2 wire start 1,800 rpm reliable diesel generator. I once ordered, on spec, a 9KW Perkins engine liquid cooled enclosed diesel from a factory in China I deal with. I sold it to a customer that ran it 18 hours a day on 100% load, to power his restaurant refrigeration outside service hours. It lasted him years, it must have thousands of hours on it. >>>> I think the big problem in the US is getting permits for diesel generators. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 6:25 PM Ray wrote: >>>>> I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be >>>>> disappointed with the Generac Ecogen. Very high failure rate, and >>>>> support is poor. Service requires expensive on site service. Also the >>>>> no load AC draw and programming setup is just not off grid ready at >>>>> all. I'm still not seeing any other great choices, though. Here's some >>>>> other possibilities: >>>>> >>>>> 1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with Honda >>>>> motor. Not the best choice especially for autostart, no propane, but at >>>>> least they can take it in to the shop if it goes down. >>>>> >>>>> 2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather start issues? >>>>> >>>>> 3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model. Overkill, expensive, >>>>> but probably will last a really long time. >>>>> >>>>> 4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand. Kohler used to be >>>>> great, but now a days I'm not so sure. >>>>> >>>>> I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been giving other >>>>> customers trouble. Any new ideas on this age old problem? >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Ray Walters >>>>> Remote Solar >>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Chris Mason >>>> Solar systems designer >>>> Generac Generators Industrial technician >>>> >>>> Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar >>>> Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 >>>> WhatsApp 264.235.5670 >>>> Skype: netconcepts >>>> www.cometsolar.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> Chris Mason >> Solar systems designer >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar >> Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 >> WhatsApp 264.235.5670 >> Skype: netconcepts >> www.cometsolar.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 01:05:53 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 22:05:53 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators? In-Reply-To: References: <5d5964d4-afe4-d7a0-005a-a0fbb6ce6cc8@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray look at the Cummins gen-sets have had no issues and non have blown up, no voltage issues. Jerry On Fri, Feb 28, 2020, 12:41 PM Ray wrote: > Some of the issues have been Generac not providing a simple wiring > schematic, nor simply labeling the 2 start wires. 2nd is requiring either > internet connection or a call in to get the start code. Both have been > very problematic in remote locations with no phone service. Totally > unnecessary. We don't need a Generac tech just to connect wires, I'm the > licensed electrician. Last time I called Generac, (control error not > listed in the manual) they insisted I needed to call in a service tech, and > offered zero trouble shooting. I fixed the problem by pulling the fuse and > resetting the controller. 3rd, service requires a long expensive trip by > the service tech, who then diagnoses the problem, has to order the parts > and return weeks later. This means every issue takes 2 round trips to > resolve. If its a bigger issue, it requires a truck lift to haul the 500 > lb unit in to the shop. We're hearing $500 just to get the generator to > the shop, then another $500 to reinstall it after. > > Failures have included several catastrophic engine failures, blowing oil > every where, some of these have been in the first few hundred hours. Lots > of control issues, one recently had voltage that varied from 90 to 130, 45 > to 70 Hz, and the inverter wouldn't even connect to it. > > I quit selling generators a long time ago, because I didn't want the > service liability. I'm not a mechanic, and I don't want to be. I do > however, need a generator I can recommend in good faith. The Ecogen has > made us look pretty bad. Glad I didn't sell them, but then I've seen some > large water cooled unit that worked well. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 2/28/20 5:14 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > > Ray, > I'm a Generac dealer. Why are you having support problems? Generac has a > large dealer network, if the unit is under warranty you should have no > problem getting it fixed. Did you buy through a dealer and have them > install it? Why are the services expensive? > > What failures are you seeing? > > There is a hole in the market for products in this application. Virtually > no-one makes an affordable ~10KW diesel enclosed 2 wire start 1,800 rpm > reliable diesel generator. I once ordered, on spec, a 9KW Perkins engine > liquid cooled enclosed diesel from a factory in China I deal with. I sold > it to a customer that ran it 18 hours a day on 100% load, to power his > restaurant refrigeration outside service hours. It lasted him years, it > must have thousands of hours on it. > I think the big problem in the US is getting permits for diesel generators. > > > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 6:25 PM Ray wrote: > >> I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be >> disappointed with the Generac Ecogen. Very high failure rate, and >> support is poor. Service requires expensive on site service. Also the >> no load AC draw and programming setup is just not off grid ready at >> all. I'm still not seeing any other great choices, though. Here's some >> other possibilities: >> >> 1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with Honda >> motor. Not the best choice especially for autostart, no propane, but at >> least they can take it in to the shop if it goes down. >> >> 2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather start >> issues? >> >> 3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model. Overkill, expensive, >> but probably will last a really long time. >> >> 4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand. Kohler used to be >> great, but now a days I'm not so sure. >> >> I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been giving other >> customers trouble. Any new ideas on this age old problem? >> >> -- >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Chris Mason > Solar systems designer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar > Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 > WhatsApp 264.235.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > www.cometsolar.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat Mar 7 20:20:30 2020 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 18:20:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX upgrade question Message-ID: <176bc849-5135-3ace-81c1-891eaf8d4fda@sindelarsolar.com> Wrenches, I have a client who is looking at upgrading an older off grid system that has an Outback VFX3524 inverter to 48V_nom in order to use a Blue Ion LiFePo battery. I installed the VFX about ten years ago and it has worked without any issues. The client has never had a generator and has enough array to equalize his FLA batteries with array only, so has never had or needed a Mate. If I upgrade to 48V with a new inverter, it will most likely be an FXR3048. First question: Can I use an original Mate (rather than a Mate3) to set up basic programming with a R series inverter, such as charger and LBCO settings? Second: anyone have an older FX3048 or VFX3648 for sale, if the answer to the first question is no? Thank you, Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 20:38:01 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 17:38:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX upgrade question In-Reply-To: <176bc849-5135-3ace-81c1-891eaf8d4fda@sindelarsolar.com> References: <176bc849-5135-3ace-81c1-891eaf8d4fda@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Have you price compared the 3648 FX to the 4048 Radian Jerry On Sat, Mar 7, 2020, 5:20 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: > Wrenches, > > I have a client who is looking at upgrading an older off grid system that > has an Outback VFX3524 inverter to 48Vnom in order to use a Blue Ion > LiFePo battery. I installed the VFX about ten years ago and it has worked > without any issues. The client has never had a generator and has enough > array to equalize his FLA batteries with array only, so has never had or > needed a Mate. If I upgrade to 48V with a new inverter, it will most likely > be an FXR3048. First question: Can I use an original Mate (rather than a > Mate3) to set up basic programming with a R series inverter, such as > charger and LBCO settings? Second: anyone have an older FX3048 or VFX3648 > for sale, if the answer to the first question is no? > > Thank you, > > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 20:45:41 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 17:45:41 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX upgrade question In-Reply-To: <176bc849-5135-3ace-81c1-891eaf8d4fda@sindelarsolar.com> References: <176bc849-5135-3ace-81c1-891eaf8d4fda@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <9B0DE92B-D357-4FB9-8715-AA0B77926F4A@gmail.com> Hi Allan, FXR requires mate3S Jay > On Mar 7, 2020, at 5:20 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > >  > Wrenches, > > I have a client who is looking at upgrading an older off grid system that has an Outback VFX3524 inverter to 48Vnom in order to use a Blue Ion LiFePo battery. I installed the VFX about ten years ago and it has worked without any issues. The client has never had a generator and has enough array to equalize his FLA batteries with array only, so has never had or needed a Mate. If I upgrade to 48V with a new inverter, it will most likely be an FXR3048. First question: Can I use an original Mate (rather than a Mate3) to set up basic programming with a R series inverter, such as charger and LBCO settings? Second: anyone have an older FX3048 or VFX3648 for sale, if the answer to the first question is no? > > Thank you, > > Allan > > -- > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Sun Mar 8 19:18:34 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 19:18:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX upgrade question In-Reply-To: <176bc849-5135-3ace-81c1-891eaf8d4fda@sindelarsolar.com> References: <176bc849-5135-3ace-81c1-891eaf8d4fda@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <3EA6D935-AA59-4948-8BFC-8C8A0A4957FD@icloud.com> Hi Alan, I have just done exactly what you plan to do, that is install blue ion batteries in an existing off grid 48 vdc System. In my opinion you really do need a mate 3S the Mate3 will work but there is potential for self-destruction. You definitely cannot use an older hub. it Has to be a 10.3 with the FXR series of inverters. Please contact me off list for more info. I replaced the 10-year-old FX ‘s at this site with FXR’s and they are available. they are 3648’s. Kirk Herander > On Mar 7, 2020, at 8:20 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > >  > Wrenches, > > I have a client who is looking at upgrading an older off grid system that has an Outback VFX3524 inverter to 48Vnom in order to use a Blue Ion LiFePo battery. I installed the VFX about ten years ago and it has worked without any issues. The client has never had a generator and has enough array to equalize his FLA batteries with array only, so has never had or needed a Mate. If I upgrade to 48V with a new inverter, it will most likely be an FXR3048. First question: Can I use an original Mate (rather than a Mate3) to set up basic programming with a R series inverter, such as charger and LBCO settings? Second: anyone have an older FX3048 or VFX3648 for sale, if the answer to the first question is no? > > Thank you, > > Allan > > -- > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 19:02:21 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 16:02:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Semi flexible modules Message-ID: <302A03C0-B2DF-45BB-A5BC-8542D18B0FC3@gmail.com> Hi all, Especially those that do RV, Any recommendations as to semi flexible modules? I find sun power brand, but many others saying “sun power cells”. Prices are of course all over the map. I am asking because a usual offgrid client bought a camper wants solar installed and the semi flexible modules seem like a better solution than framed. Lighter weight, non glass, less to break, etc If anyone has anything to share I’d like to hear about Thanks Jay Peltz power. From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 20:10:43 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 17:10:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX upgrade question In-Reply-To: <3EA6D935-AA59-4948-8BFC-8C8A0A4957FD@icloud.com> References: <3EA6D935-AA59-4948-8BFC-8C8A0A4957FD@icloud.com> Message-ID: <124C86D8-BC17-4743-8B23-052176E1F32A@gmail.com> If the issue is high quality lithium batteries, I’d recommend Rolls/discover https://rollsbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/S24-2800LFP.pdf They make a 24v version that will work just fine with a fx inverter. Jay Peltz Power. > On Mar 8, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > >  > Hi Alan, > I have just done exactly what you plan to do, that is install blue ion batteries in an existing off grid 48 vdc System. In my opinion you really do need a mate 3S the Mate3 will work but there is potential for self-destruction. You definitely cannot use an older hub. it Has to be a 10.3 with the FXR series of inverters. > Please contact me off list for more info. I replaced the 10-year-old FX ‘s at this site with FXR’s and they are available. they are 3648’s. > > Kirk Herander > > >>> On Mar 7, 2020, at 8:20 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: >>> >>  >> Wrenches, >> >> I have a client who is looking at upgrading an older off grid system that has an Outback VFX3524 inverter to 48Vnom in order to use a Blue Ion LiFePo battery. I installed the VFX about ten years ago and it has worked without any issues. The client has never had a generator and has enough array to equalize his FLA batteries with array only, so has never had or needed a Mate. If I upgrade to 48V with a new inverter, it will most likely be an FXR3048. First question: Can I use an original Mate (rather than a Mate3) to set up basic programming with a R series inverter, such as charger and LBCO settings? Second: anyone have an older FX3048 or VFX3648 for sale, if the answer to the first question is no? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Allan >> >> -- >> Allan Sindelar >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> 505 780-2738 cell >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 07:23:29 2020 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 07:23:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX upgrade question In-Reply-To: <176bc849-5135-3ace-81c1-891eaf8d4fda@sindelarsolar.com> References: <176bc849-5135-3ace-81c1-891eaf8d4fda@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Alan, It appears to me that everyone miss read your question. If your customer does not need a generator, then his solar charge controller needs to be able to be set up for the lithium battery voltage settings. So the inverter simply needs to be 48 volts and has nothing to do with charging battery. You could use any 48 volt inverter and use the MATE. The inverter would only provide LBCO to protect the battery. As far as a used VFX 3648 contact me off list. John Blittersdorf On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 8:20 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: > Wrenches, > > I have a client who is looking at upgrading an older off grid system that > has an Outback VFX3524 inverter to 48Vnom in order to use a Blue Ion > LiFePo battery. I installed the VFX about ten years ago and it has worked > without any issues. The client has never had a generator and has enough > array to equalize his FLA batteries with array only, so has never had or > needed a Mate. If I upgrade to 48V with a new inverter, it will most likely > be an FXR3048. First question: Can I use an original Mate (rather than a > Mate3) to set up basic programming with a R series inverter, such as > charger and LBCO settings? Second: anyone have an older FX3048 or VFX3648 > for sale, if the answer to the first question is no? > > Thank you, > > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Mon Mar 9 11:27:56 2020 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 08:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX upgrade question In-Reply-To: References: <176bc849-5135-3ace-81c1-891eaf8d4fda@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <1583767676.23331121@webmail.finestplanet.com> I wrote to Allan off list, but will mention my suggestion here for others too. Outback still makes and sells the 3 circuit boards for the FX series of inverters (i just bought a spare set for our GVFX3648 for ~$800.00). Changing 2 of the 3 cards would make this into a 48 volt inverter. The same mate would work with this and as well as the mounts and wiring. only the batteries would need changing to 48 volts. The cost would be around $500.00. Todd On Monday, March 9, 2020 4:23am, "John Blittersdorf" said: Alan, It appears to me that everyone miss read your question. If your customer does not need a generator, then his solar charge controller needs to be able to be set up for the lithium battery voltage settings. So the inverter simply needs to be 48 volts and has nothing to do with charging battery. You could use any 48 volt inverter and use the MATE. The inverter would only provide LBCO to protect the battery. As far as a used VFX 3648 contact me off list. John Blittersdorf On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 8:20 PM Sindelar Solar <[ Allan at sindelarsolar.com ]( mailto:Allan at sindelarsolar.com )> wrote: Wrenches, I have a client who is looking at upgrading an older off grid system that has an Outback VFX3524 inverter to 48Vnom in order to use a Blue Ion LiFePo battery. I installed the VFX about ten years ago and it has worked without any issues. The client has never had a generator and has enough array to equalize his FLA batteries with array only, so has never had or needed a Mate. If I upgrade to 48V with a new inverter, it will most likely be an FXR3048. First question: Can I use an original Mate (rather than a Mate3) to set up basic programming with a R series inverter, such as charger and LBCO settings? Second: anyone have an older FX3048 or VFX3648 for sale, if the answer to the first question is no? Thank you, Allan -- Allan Sindelar [ allan at sindelarsolar.com ]( mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com ) NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) List-Archive: [ http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ]( http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ) List rules & etiquette: [ www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ) Check out or update participant bios: [ www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 12:09:42 2020 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 12:09:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX upgrade question In-Reply-To: <1583767676.23331121@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <176bc849-5135-3ace-81c1-891eaf8d4fda@sindelarsolar.com> <1583767676.23331121@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Todd, So is it that the control board and FET board are voltage specific, control board also grid tie or off grid specific, AC board common to all and Transformer common to all? I was unsure about the transformer as I have found most that I see with some indication of voltage written on the transformer. Probably notes to the reassembler? It makes sense that all 120vac inverters would have the same transformer. This is a good thread to clear up how simple it is to mix And match at your pleasure to make what you need from the retired FX Series inverters. I’ve been buying new boards Fron Zonna. Are there other sources? On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 11:28 AM wrote: > I wrote to Allan off list, but will mention my suggestion here for others > too. Outback still makes and sells the 3 circuit boards for the FX series > of inverters (i just bought a spare set for our GVFX3648 for ~$800.00). > > Changing 2 of the 3 cards would make this into a 48 volt inverter. The > same mate would work with this and as well as the mounts and wiring. only > the batteries would need changing to 48 volts. The cost would be around > $500.00. > > > > Todd > > > > > > > > On Monday, March 9, 2020 4:23am, "John Blittersdorf" < > john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> said: > > Alan, > It appears to me that everyone miss read your question. If your > customer does not need a generator, then his solar charge controller needs > to be able to be set up for the lithium battery voltage settings. So the > inverter simply needs to be 48 volts and has nothing to do with charging > battery. You could use any 48 volt inverter and use the MATE. The inverter > would only provide LBCO to protect the battery. As far as a used VFX 3648 > contact me off list. > John Blittersdorf > > On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 8:20 PM Sindelar Solar > wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> I have a client who is looking at upgrading an older off grid system that >> has an Outback VFX3524 inverter to 48Vnom in order to use a Blue Ion >> LiFePo battery. I installed the VFX about ten years ago and it has worked >> without any issues. The client has never had a generator and has enough >> array to equalize his FLA batteries with array only, so has never had or >> needed a Mate. If I upgrade to 48V with a new inverter, it will most likely >> be an FXR3048. First question: Can I use an original Mate (rather than a >> Mate3) to set up basic programming with a R series inverter, such as >> charger and LBCO settings? Second: anyone have an older FX3048 or VFX3648 >> for sale, if the answer to the first question is no? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Allan >> -- >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 cell* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh at scoraigwind.co.uk Mon Mar 9 12:25:43 2020 From: hugh at scoraigwind.co.uk (Hugh Piggott) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 16:25:43 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFX produces no output with no error In-Reply-To: References: <176bc849-5135-3ace-81c1-891eaf8d4fda@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I wonder if anyone can tell me what is happening here? I have an Outback VFX that I used for my own home from 2006-2018. It’s a 50Hz 240V unit, but similar otherwise to any other 48V VFX. It was working well when disconnected. I needed to replace the inverter system for other reasons. I installed this for a neighbour recently on his 48V system, and it apparently worked when I left the building. Now it’s not working. When “off” it shows a warning for temperatures sensor - fair enough I did not install one. Maybe when it gets connected to a generator it will be found a sensor. This is the only error or fault with a yes. When “on” it makes a reassuring buzz and both lights come up green and there is no error or warning in the Mate. Just one problem - no output. Another weird thing. I go to the status menu and check meters STATUS/FX/METER output voltage and it says “4V”. So it knows that it is not working but it appears to have no qualms or misgivings about this state of affairs. NO error, no warning, two green lights. I tried rebooting with the battery fuse. I tried resetting to factory defaults. No joy. I suppose I will take it to pieces and try to figure out a hardware failure but I wonder if anyone has seen this and can give me a clue? cheers Hugh Hugh Piggott Scoraig Wind Electric Dundonnell Ross shire IV23 2RE, UK +44 77 1315 7600 hugh at scoraigwind.co.uk www.scoraigwind.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 12:29:08 2020 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Jesse Dahl) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 11:29:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Semi flexible modules In-Reply-To: <302A03C0-B2DF-45BB-A5BC-8542D18B0FC3@gmail.com> References: <302A03C0-B2DF-45BB-A5BC-8542D18B0FC3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <10736C45-51CB-4EB9-A0AE-70EBC30B717B@gmail.com> I bought some from Iron Edison a few years ago. They were going to be mounted on the front radius of a fish house but the people sold the fish house due to a job move so I never installed them. Can’t tell ya much else about them. Here is the link. https://ironedison.com/100-watt-flexible-solar-panel Jesse Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 8, 2020, at 7:09 PM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all, > Especially those that do RV, > > Any recommendations as to semi flexible modules? I find sun power brand, but many others saying “sun power cells”. > Prices are of course all over the map. > > I am asking because a usual offgrid client bought a camper wants solar installed and the semi flexible modules seem like a better solution than framed. Lighter weight, non glass, less to break, etc > > If anyone has anything to share I’d like to hear about > > Thanks > > Jay > Peltz power. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Mon Mar 9 13:00:15 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 10:00:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFX produces no output with no error In-Reply-To: References: <176bc849-5135-3ace-81c1-891eaf8d4fda@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <45b5da91-6e59-ff46-615a-b8484d982fd1@coveoregon.com> Hugh, I've seen these symptoms before. The problem was a failed output relay on the ac board. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 3/9/2020 9:25 AM, Hugh Piggott wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I wonder if anyone can tell me what is happening here? > > I have an Outback VFX that I used for my own home from 2006-2018. >  It’s a 50Hz 240V unit, but similar otherwise to any other 48V VFX. >  It was working well when disconnected.  I needed to replace the > inverter system for other reasons. > > I installed this for a neighbour recently on his 48V system, and it > apparently worked when I left the building. > > Now it’s not working.  When “off” it shows a warning for temperatures > sensor - fair enough I did not install one.  Maybe when it gets > connected to a generator it will be found a sensor.  This is the only > error or fault with a yes. > > When “on” it makes a reassuring buzz and both lights come up green and > there is no error or warning in the Mate.  Just one problem - no output. > > Another weird thing.  I go to the status menu and check meters >  STATUS/FX/METER output voltage and it says “4V”.  So it _knows_ that > it is not working but it appears to have no qualms or misgivings about > this state of affairs.  NO error, no warning, two green lights. > > I tried rebooting with the battery fuse.  I tried resetting to factory > defaults.  No joy. > > I suppose I will take it to pieces and try to figure out a hardware > failure but I wonder if anyone has seen this and can give me a clue? > > cheers > Hugh > > > Hugh Piggott > Scoraig Wind Electric > Dundonnell > Ross shire > IV23 2RE,  UK > +44 77 1315 7600 > hugh at scoraigwind.co.uk > www.scoraigwind.co.uk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 13:07:12 2020 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 10:07:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFX produces no output with no error In-Reply-To: <45b5da91-6e59-ff46-615a-b8484d982fd1@coveoregon.com> References: <176bc849-5135-3ace-81c1-891eaf8d4fda@sindelarsolar.com> <45b5da91-6e59-ff46-615a-b8484d982fd1@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: Hugh....Typically the temp Sense warning is not related to an external temp sensor, rather an internal temperature sensor. The Outback inverters typically will run normally even with this temp sensor not working. I believe it is related to temperature of one of the boards and relates to turning the cooling fan on if present - normally it is not related to a battery temp sensor which is what I got the impression you understood it to be. However, typically this will show up as a red blinking error light which signifies a warning instead of a solid red error light during which the inverter may stop working. Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 10:00 AM Kent Osterberg wrote: > Hugh, > > I've seen these symptoms before. The problem was a failed output relay on > the ac board. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 3/9/2020 9:25 AM, Hugh Piggott wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > I wonder if anyone can tell me what is happening here? > > I have an Outback VFX that I used for my own home from 2006-2018. It’s a > 50Hz 240V unit, but similar otherwise to any other 48V VFX. It was working > well when disconnected. I needed to replace the inverter system for other > reasons. > > I installed this for a neighbour recently on his 48V system, and it > apparently worked when I left the building. > > Now it’s not working. When “off” it shows a warning for temperatures > sensor - fair enough I did not install one. Maybe when it gets connected > to a generator it will be found a sensor. This is the only error or fault > with a yes. > > When “on” it makes a reassuring buzz and both lights come up green and > there is no error or warning in the Mate. Just one problem - no output. > > Another weird thing. I go to the status menu and check meters > STATUS/FX/METER output voltage and it says “4V”. So it *knows* that it > is not working but it appears to have no qualms or misgivings about this > state of affairs. NO error, no warning, two green lights. > > I tried rebooting with the battery fuse. I tried resetting to factory > defaults. No joy. > > I suppose I will take it to pieces and try to figure out a hardware > failure but I wonder if anyone has seen this and can give me a clue? > > cheers > Hugh > > > Hugh Piggott > Scoraig Wind Electric > Dundonnell > Ross shire > IV23 2RE, UK > +44 77 1315 7600 > hugh at scoraigwind.co.uk > www.scoraigwind.co.uk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Mon Mar 9 13:08:55 2020 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 17:08:55 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX upgrade question In-Reply-To: References: <176bc849-5135-3ace-81c1-891eaf8d4fda@sindelarsolar.com> <1583767676.23331121@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Hello All I will try to answer the original question then address the added concerns. Question Can I use an original Mate (rather than a Mate3) to set up basic programming with a R series inverter, such as charger and LBCO settings? No the FXRs require a Mate3(s) for programming. Question Can A hub 4 be used with an FXR inverter? It depends, you can use a single FXR or paralleled inverters (120) with a HUB 4 but you cannot Series Stack (120/240) or 3phase stack (120/208) with a Hub 4 Question my suggestion here for others too. Outback still makes and sells the 3 circuit boards for the FX series of inverters (i just bought a spare set for our GVFX3648 for ~$800.00). Yes all three PCBs are available for the FX inverters. But the transformers are dedicated to the dc voltage and are not interchangeable between the 12, 24, and 48 volt inverters. The turn ratios are different. Below is a link to several whitepapers located on the OutBack Website concerning various battery chemistries . http://www.outbackpower.com/resources/documents/app-notes I hope this helps From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of John Blittersdorf Sent: Monday, March 9, 2020 9:10 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX upgrade question Todd, So is it that the control board and FET board are voltage specific, control board also grid tie or off grid specific, AC board common to all and Transformer common to all? I was unsure about the transformer as I have found most that I see with some indication of voltage written on the transformer. Probably notes to the reassembler? It makes sense that all 120vac inverters would have the same transformer. This is a good thread to clear up how simple it is to mix And match at your pleasure to make what you need from the retired FX Series inverters. I’ve been buying new boards Fron Zonna. Are there other sources? On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 11:28 AM > wrote: I wrote to Allan off list, but will mention my suggestion here for others too. Outback still makes and sells the 3 circuit boards for the FX series of inverters (i just bought a spare set for our GVFX3648 for ~$800.00). Changing 2 of the 3 cards would make this into a 48 volt inverter. The same mate would work with this and as well as the mounts and wiring. only the batteries would need changing to 48 volts. The cost would be around $500.00. Todd On Monday, March 9, 2020 4:23am, "John Blittersdorf" > said: Alan, It appears to me that everyone miss read your question. If your customer does not need a generator, then his solar charge controller needs to be able to be set up for the lithium battery voltage settings. So the inverter simply needs to be 48 volts and has nothing to do with charging battery. You could use any 48 volt inverter and use the MATE. The inverter would only provide LBCO to protect the battery. As far as a used VFX 3648 contact me off list. John Blittersdorf On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 8:20 PM Sindelar Solar > wrote: Wrenches, I have a client who is looking at upgrading an older off grid system that has an Outback VFX3524 inverter to 48Vnom in order to use a Blue Ion LiFePo battery. I installed the VFX about ten years ago and it has worked without any issues. The client has never had a generator and has enough array to equalize his FLA batteries with array only, so has never had or needed a Mate. If I upgrade to 48V with a new inverter, it will most likely be an FXR3048. First question: Can I use an original Mate (rather than a Mate3) to set up basic programming with a R series inverter, such as charger and LBCO settings? Second: anyone have an older FX3048 or VFX3648 for sale, if the answer to the first question is no? Thank you, Allan -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Mar 9 13:14:26 2020 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 10:14:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Semi flexible modules In-Reply-To: <302A03C0-B2DF-45BB-A5BC-8542D18B0FC3@gmail.com> References: <302A03C0-B2DF-45BB-A5BC-8542D18B0FC3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6013BC18-9343-4111-9F94-E0556151D4BC@starlightsolar.com> Hi Jay, We sold/installed flexible modules from various manufacturers for about 5 years. When permanently installed, most have a fast degradation of the PET encapsulate leading to blotching, peeling, cracking and pitting. The weight savings is significant and may be worth using for some as long as you don’t expect the longevity of a framed, glass module. Customers using them occasionally as a portable module are experiencing long life. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Mar 8, 2020, at 4:02 PM, Jay wrote: Hi all, Especially those that do RV, Any recommendations as to semi flexible modules? I find sun power brand, but many others saying “sun power cells”. Prices are of course all over the map. I am asking because a usual offgrid client bought a camper wants solar installed and the semi flexible modules seem like a better solution than framed. Lighter weight, non glass, less to break, etc If anyone has anything to share I’d like to hear about Thanks Jay Peltz power. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 1380 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Mar 9 14:07:54 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 14:07:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Semi flexible modules In-Reply-To: <6013BC18-9343-4111-9F94-E0556151D4BC@starlightsolar.com> References: <302A03C0-B2DF-45BB-A5BC-8542D18B0FC3@gmail.com> <6013BC18-9343-4111-9F94-E0556151D4BC@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: I 2nd Larry's experience.  I've never seen any flex modules that have held up for more than a few years.  Complete degradation in our high altitude UV environment.  Glass with monocrystalline cells on the other hand: we still see some bronzed out Arco (before Siemens) modules that are over 30 years old with decent output. Another possible way to follow the curve is with smaller glass modules. We're having good luck with little modules down to 10 watts. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/9/20 11:14 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > Hi Jay, > > We sold/installed flexible modules from various manufacturers for about 5 years. When permanently installed, most have a fast degradation of the PET encapsulate leading to blotching, peeling, cracking and pitting. The weight savings is significant and may be worth using for some as long as you don’t expect the longevity of a framed, glass module. Customers using them occasionally as a portable module are experiencing long life. > > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > > On Mar 8, 2020, at 4:02 PM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all, > Especially those that do RV, > > Any recommendations as to semi flexible modules? I find sun power brand, but many others saying “sun power cells”. > Prices are of course all over the map. > > I am asking because a usual offgrid client bought a camper wants solar installed and the semi flexible modules seem like a better solution than framed. Lighter weight, non glass, less to break, etc > > If anyone has anything to share I’d like to hear about > > Thanks > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 14:09:24 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 11:09:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Semi flexible modules In-Reply-To: <302A03C0-B2DF-45BB-A5BC-8542D18B0FC3@gmail.com> References: <302A03C0-B2DF-45BB-A5BC-8542D18B0FC3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Contact sunpointenergy, 7074333946 They have a laminate product that may be what you are looking for has more power then the old unipolar laminate did Jerry On Mon, Mar 9, 2020, 6:39 AM Jay wrote: > Hi all, > Especially those that do RV, > > Any recommendations as to semi flexible modules? I find sun power brand, > but many others saying “sun power cells”. > Prices are of course all over the map. > > I am asking because a usual offgrid client bought a camper wants solar > installed and the semi flexible modules seem like a better solution than > framed. Lighter weight, non glass, less to break, etc > > If anyone has anything to share I’d like to hear about > > Thanks > > Jay > Peltz power. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 14:13:11 2020 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 14:13:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFX produces no output with no error In-Reply-To: <45b5da91-6e59-ff46-615a-b8484d982fd1@coveoregon.com> References: <176bc849-5135-3ace-81c1-891eaf8d4fda@sindelarsolar.com> <45b5da91-6e59-ff46-615a-b8484d982fd1@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: Hugh, I have one at my guest cabin doing the same thing except that the meter on the mate says I have 119 vac but nothing at the AC Out terminal. I think Kent might be right that it may be the AC output relay. It is odd though that there is no error message in your case. This inverter had been tortured by the last tenants of the cabin with bad generators. I was actually going to go up there and check it out some more as it is warm today. No heat in the cabin. John Blittersdorf On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 1:00 PM Kent Osterberg wrote: > Hugh, > > I've seen these symptoms before. The problem was a failed output relay on > the ac board. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 3/9/2020 9:25 AM, Hugh Piggott wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > I wonder if anyone can tell me what is happening here? > > I have an Outback VFX that I used for my own home from 2006-2018. It’s a > 50Hz 240V unit, but similar otherwise to any other 48V VFX. It was working > well when disconnected. I needed to replace the inverter system for other > reasons. > > I installed this for a neighbour recently on his 48V system, and it > apparently worked when I left the building. > > Now it’s not working. When “off” it shows a warning for temperatures > sensor - fair enough I did not install one. Maybe when it gets connected > to a generator it will be found a sensor. This is the only error or fault > with a yes. > > When “on” it makes a reassuring buzz and both lights come up green and > there is no error or warning in the Mate. Just one problem - no output. > > Another weird thing. I go to the status menu and check meters > STATUS/FX/METER output voltage and it says “4V”. So it *knows* that it > is not working but it appears to have no qualms or misgivings about this > state of affairs. NO error, no warning, two green lights. > > I tried rebooting with the battery fuse. I tried resetting to factory > defaults. No joy. > > I suppose I will take it to pieces and try to figure out a hardware > failure but I wonder if anyone has seen this and can give me a clue? > > cheers > Hugh > > > Hugh Piggott > Scoraig Wind Electric > Dundonnell > Ross shire > IV23 2RE, UK > +44 77 1315 7600 > hugh at scoraigwind.co.uk > www.scoraigwind.co.uk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Mar 9 14:20:30 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 14:20:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFX produces no output with no error In-Reply-To: References: <176bc849-5135-3ace-81c1-891eaf8d4fda@sindelarsolar.com> <45b5da91-6e59-ff46-615a-b8484d982fd1@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: <3bcc107d-7355-e31c-c26f-f691942f8521@solarray.com> We had one last year with a bad relay, the customer had been charging a Tesla EV through it (pass through from the grid) and smoked the relay.  It was pretty obvious, the clear relay cover was all covered on the inside with burnt relay bits and smoke coating. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/9/20 12:13 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote: > > Hugh, >    I have one at my guest cabin doing the same thing except that the > meter on the mate says I have 119 vac but nothing at the AC Out > terminal.  I think Kent might be right that it may be the AC output > relay.  It is odd though that there is no error message in your case.  > This inverter had been tortured by the last tenants of the cabin with > bad generators.  I was actually going to go up there and check it out > some more as it is warm today. No heat in the cabin. > > John Blittersdorf > > On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 1:00 PM Kent Osterberg > wrote: > > Hugh, > > I've seen these symptoms before. The problem was a failed output > relay on the ac board. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 3/9/2020 9:25 AM, Hugh Piggott wrote: >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> I wonder if anyone can tell me what is happening here? >> >> I have an Outback VFX that I used for my own home from >> 2006-2018.  It’s a 50Hz 240V unit, but similar otherwise to any >> other 48V VFX.  It was working well when disconnected.  I needed >> to replace the inverter system for other reasons. >> >> I installed this for a neighbour recently on his 48V system, and >> it apparently worked when I left the building. >> >> Now it’s not working.  When “off” it shows a warning for >> temperatures sensor - fair enough I did not install one.  Maybe >> when it gets connected to a generator it will be found a sensor.  >> This is the only error or fault with a yes. >> >> When “on” it makes a reassuring buzz and both lights come up >> green and there is no error or warning in the Mate.  Just one >> problem - no output. >> >> Another weird thing.  I go to the status menu and check meters >>  STATUS/FX/METER output voltage and it says “4V”.  So it _knows_ >> that it is not working but it appears to have no qualms or >> misgivings about this state of affairs.  NO error, no warning, >> two green lights. >> >> I tried rebooting with the battery fuse.  I tried resetting to >> factory defaults.  No joy. >> >> I suppose I will take it to pieces and try to figure out a >> hardware failure but I wonder if anyone has seen this and can >> give me a clue? >> >> cheers >> Hugh >> >> >> Hugh Piggott >> Scoraig Wind Electric >> Dundonnell >> Ross shire >> IV23 2RE,  UK >> +44 77 1315 7600 >> hugh at scoraigwind.co.uk >> www.scoraigwind.co.uk >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Mon Mar 9 14:23:31 2020 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 11:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX upgrade question In-Reply-To: References: <176bc849-5135-3ace-81c1-891eaf8d4fda@sindelarsolar.com> <1583767676.23331121@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <1583778211.172810909@webmail.finestplanet.com> "But the transformers are dedicated to the dc voltage and are not interchangeable between the 12, 24, and 48 volt inverters. The turn ratios are different." This is valuable information Lones... thank you for stepping in and clarifying this. Todd On Monday, March 9, 2020 10:08am, "Lones Tuss" said: Hello All I will try to answer the original question then address the added concerns. Question Can I use an original Mate (rather than a Mate3) to set up basic programming with a R series inverter, such as charger and LBCO settings? No the FXRs require a Mate3(s) for programming. Question Can A hub 4 be used with an FXR inverter? It depends, you can use a single FXR or paralleled inverters (120) with a HUB 4 but you cannot Series Stack (120/240) or 3phase stack (120/208) with a Hub 4 Question my suggestion here for others too. Outback still makes and sells the 3 circuit boards for the FX series of inverters (i just bought a spare set for our GVFX3648 for ~$800.00). Yes all three PCBs are available for the FX inverters. But the transformers are dedicated to the dc voltage and are not interchangeable between the 12, 24, and 48 volt inverters. The turn ratios are different. Below is a link to several whitepapers located on the OutBack Website concerning various battery chemistries . [ http://www.outbackpower.com/resources/documents/app-notes ]( http://www.outbackpower.com/resources/documents/app-notes ) I hope this helps From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of John Blittersdorf Sent: Monday, March 9, 2020 9:10 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX upgrade question Todd, So is it that the control board and FET board are voltage specific, control board also grid tie or off grid specific, AC board common to all and Transformer common to all? I was unsure about the transformer as I have found most that I see with some indication of voltage written on the transformer. Probably notes to the reassembler? It makes sense that all 120vac inverters would have the same transformer. This is a good thread to clear up how simple it is to mix And match at your pleasure to make what you need from the retired FX Series inverters. I’ve been buying new boards Fron Zonna. Are there other sources? On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 11:28 AM <[ toddcory at finestplanet.com ]( mailto:toddcory at finestplanet.com )> wrote: I wrote to Allan off list, but will mention my suggestion here for others too. Outback still makes and sells the 3 circuit boards for the FX series of inverters (i just bought a spare set for our GVFX3648 for ~$800.00). Changing 2 of the 3 cards would make this into a 48 volt inverter. The same mate would work with this and as well as the mounts and wiring. only the batteries would need changing to 48 volts. The cost would be around $500.00. Todd On Monday, March 9, 2020 4:23am, "John Blittersdorf" <[ john.blittersdorf at gmail.com ]( mailto:john.blittersdorf at gmail.com )> said: Alan, It appears to me that everyone miss read your question. If your customer does not need a generator, then his solar charge controller needs to be able to be set up for the lithium battery voltage settings. So the inverter simply needs to be 48 volts and has nothing to do with charging battery. You could use any 48 volt inverter and use the MATE. The inverter would only provide LBCO to protect the battery. As far as a used VFX 3648 contact me off list. John Blittersdorf On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 8:20 PM Sindelar Solar <[ Allan at sindelarsolar.com ]( mailto:Allan at sindelarsolar.com )> wrote: Wrenches, I have a client who is looking at upgrading an older off grid system that has an Outback VFX3524 inverter to 48Vnom in order to use a Blue Ion LiFePo battery. I installed the VFX about ten years ago and it has worked without any issues. The client has never had a generator and has enough array to equalize his FLA batteries with array only, so has never had or needed a Mate. If I upgrade to 48V with a new inverter, it will most likely be an FXR3048. First question: Can I use an original Mate (rather than a Mate3) to set up basic programming with a R series inverter, such as charger and LBCO settings? Second: anyone have an older FX3048 or VFX3648 for sale, if the answer to the first question is no? Thank you, Allan -- Allan Sindelar [ allan at sindelarsolar.com ]( mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com ) NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=28aa8619-7503bc7d-28a98f92-ac1f6b0132de-ce78b059afde57e2&q=1&e=5b2af0d2-99cf-411d-aaab-5322f205b112&u=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) List-Archive: [ http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ]( https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=fb652d18-a6cc177c-fb662493-ac1f6b0132de-3c6f0396eb35b0ad&q=1&e=5b2af0d2-99cf-411d-aaab-5322f205b112&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html ) List rules & etiquette: [ www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=35fd38d1-685402b5-35fe315a-ac1f6b0132de-62a66f5e42856858&q=1&e=5b2af0d2-99cf-411d-aaab-5322f205b112&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm ) Check out or update participant bios: [ www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3a89feab-6720c4cf-3a8af720-ac1f6b0132de-95285dc1cb59b7cc&q=1&e=5b2af0d2-99cf-411d-aaab-5322f205b112&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org%2F ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=ccd159e3-91786387-ccd25068-ac1f6b0132de-9bdac7c9d1fe2557&q=1&e=5b2af0d2-99cf-411d-aaab-5322f205b112&u=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) List-Archive: [ http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ]( https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=b919023c-e4b03858-b91a0bb7-ac1f6b0132de-ada0791aa12faaa4&q=1&e=5b2af0d2-99cf-411d-aaab-5322f205b112&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html ) List rules & etiquette: [ www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=77e92a32-2a401056-77ea23b9-ac1f6b0132de-98b64728ac4828fb&q=1&e=5b2af0d2-99cf-411d-aaab-5322f205b112&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm ) Check out or update participant bios: [ www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=932a3224-ce830840-93293baf-ac1f6b0132de-1c27e6de2621e145&q=1&e=5b2af0d2-99cf-411d-aaab-5322f205b112&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org%2F ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Mar 9 14:59:57 2020 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 11:59:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Semi flexible modules In-Reply-To: References: <302A03C0-B2DF-45BB-A5BC-8542D18B0FC3@gmail.com> <6013BC18-9343-4111-9F94-E0556151D4BC@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Ray, Thinking of light weight PV modules reminds me that Uni-Solar is gone. Still the highest performance module I have ever tested. Being light weight and unbreakable was the icing on the cake if you had the real estate needed due to efficiency. My hat is still off to the brilliant inventor Stan Ovshinsky. Jay, There are Uni-Solar PVL’s floating around. A coupe years ago I found enough to build a 4.4kW off grid system. If you have the length necessary, I would highly recommend using them instead of the Flexible modules you are considering. https://www.amazon.com/Uni-Solar-PVL-68-PowerBond-112-Inch-15-5-Inch/dp/B002MWDI44 Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Mar 9, 2020, at 11:07 AM, Ray wrote: I 2nd Larry's experience. I've never seen any flex modules that have held up for more than a few years. Complete degradation in our high altitude UV environment. Glass with monocrystalline cells on the other hand: we still see some bronzed out Arco (before Siemens) modules that are over 30 years old with decent output. Another possible way to follow the curve is with smaller glass modules. We're having good luck with little modules down to 10 watts. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/9/20 11:14 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > Hi Jay, > > We sold/installed flexible modules from various manufacturers for about 5 years. When permanently installed, most have a fast degradation of the PET encapsulate leading to blotching, peeling, cracking and pitting. The weight savings is significant and may be worth using for some as long as you don’t expect the longevity of a framed, glass module. Customers using them occasionally as a portable module are experiencing long life. > > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > > On Mar 8, 2020, at 4:02 PM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all, > Especially those that do RV, > > Any recommendations as to semi flexible modules? I find sun power brand, but many others saying “sun power cells”. > Prices are of course all over the map. > > I am asking because a usual offgrid client bought a camper wants solar installed and the semi flexible modules seem like a better solution than framed. Lighter weight, non glass, less to break, etc > > If anyone has anything to share I’d like to hear about > > Thanks > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 1380 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Mon Mar 9 15:16:40 2020 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2020 15:16:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Semi flexible modules In-Reply-To: References: <302A03C0-B2DF-45BB-A5BC-8542D18B0FC3@gmail.com> <6013BC18-9343-4111-9F94-E0556151D4BC@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <86d3590d86b47b2770e80239c89f7ba8@solar-energy-solutions.com> I have about 250 kW of 10 year old, recently removed Unisolar 144s and 68s and think Larry is correct. We're testing it for re-sale and most seem fine after a decade of weathering. The only failures were ones placed in areas of the roof prone to ponding. Removing the panels and hearing complaints below, I do wonder if some complaints may be based on misuse. It sure would be easy to stick flex modules anywhere, even places they don't belong. Flat modules stuck on a flat roof can be an example, and I doubt it just pertains to flex modules. I suspect Powerguard may have had the same issue with their crystalline flat installs that dried up in favor of 10 degree ballast. Matt Matt Partymiller General Manager Solar Energy Solutions, LLC 877-312-7456 matt at sesre.com On 2020-03-09 14:59, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > Ray, > > Thinking of light weight PV modules reminds me that Uni-Solar is gone. Still the highest performance module I have ever tested. Being light weight and unbreakable was the icing on the cake if you had the real estate needed due to efficiency. My hat is still off to the brilliant inventor Stan Ovshinsky. > > Jay, > There are Uni-Solar PVL's floating around. A coupe years ago I found enough to build a 4.4kW off grid system. If you have the length necessary, I would highly recommend using them instead of the Flexible modules you are considering. https://www.amazon.com/Uni-Solar-PVL-68-PowerBond-112-Inch-15-5-Inch/dp/B002MWDI44 > > Larry Crutcher > > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > On Mar 9, 2020, at 11:07 AM, Ray wrote: > > I 2nd Larry's experience. I've never seen any flex modules that have held up for more than a few years. Complete degradation in our high altitude UV environment. Glass with monocrystalline cells on the other hand: we still see some bronzed out Arco (before Siemens) modules that are over 30 years old with decent output. > > Another possible way to follow the curve is with smaller glass modules. We're having good luck with little modules down to 10 watts. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 3/9/20 11:14 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > >> Hi Jay, >> >> We sold/installed flexible modules from various manufacturers for about 5 years. When permanently installed, most have a fast degradation of the PET encapsulate leading to blotching, peeling, cracking and pitting. The weight savings is significant and may be worth using for some as long as you don't expect the longevity of a framed, glass module. Customers using them occasionally as a portable module are experiencing long life. >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> On Mar 8, 2020, at 4:02 PM, Jay wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> Especially those that do RV, >> >> Any recommendations as to semi flexible modules? I find sun power brand, but many others saying "sun power cells". >> Prices are of course all over the map. >> >> I am asking because a usual offgrid client bought a camper wants solar installed and the semi flexible modules seem like a better solution than framed. Lighter weight, non glass, less to break, etc >> >> If anyone has anything to share I'd like to hear about >> >> Thanks >> >> Jay >> Peltz power. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [3] Links: ------ [1] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ [3] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 15:16:46 2020 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 12:16:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Semi flexible modules In-Reply-To: References: <302A03C0-B2DF-45BB-A5BC-8542D18B0FC3@gmail.com> <6013BC18-9343-4111-9F94-E0556151D4BC@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: I was impressed by Sunflare as a flexible option when I met them at the last SPI, spec sheet attached. They are based in CA, a start-up, steel backsheet, and that's all I know! Best, Rebekah Tel: 336.266.8800 On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 12:00 PM Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > Ray, > > Thinking of light weight PV modules reminds me that Uni-Solar is gone. > Still the highest performance module I have ever tested. Being light weight > and unbreakable was the icing on the cake if you had the real estate needed > due to efficiency. My hat is still off to the brilliant inventor Stan > Ovshinsky. > > Jay, > There are Uni-Solar PVL’s floating around. A coupe years ago I found > enough to build a 4.4kW off grid system. If you have the length necessary, > I would highly recommend using them instead of the Flexible modules you are > considering. > https://www.amazon.com/Uni-Solar-PVL-68-PowerBond-112-Inch-15-5-Inch/dp/B002MWDI44 > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > > On Mar 9, 2020, at 11:07 AM, Ray wrote: > > I 2nd Larry's experience. I've never seen any flex modules that have held > up for more than a few years. Complete degradation in our high altitude UV > environment. Glass with monocrystalline cells on the other hand: we still > see some bronzed out Arco (before Siemens) modules that are over 30 years > old with decent output. > > Another possible way to follow the curve is with smaller glass modules. > We're having good luck with little modules down to 10 watts. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 3/9/20 11:14 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > > Hi Jay, > > We sold/installed flexible modules from various manufacturers for about 5 years. When permanently installed, most have a fast degradation of the PET encapsulate leading to blotching, peeling, cracking and pitting. The weight savings is significant and may be worth using for some as long as you don’t expect the longevity of a framed, glass module. Customers using them occasionally as a portable module are experiencing long life. > > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > > On Mar 8, 2020, at 4:02 PM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all, > Especially those that do RV, > > Any recommendations as to semi flexible modules? I find sun power brand, but many others saying “sun power cells”. > Prices are of course all over the map. > > I am asking because a usual offgrid client bought a camper wants solar installed and the semi flexible modules seem like a better solution than framed. Lighter weight, non glass, less to break, etc > > If anyone has anything to share I’d like to hear about > > Thanks > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sunflare.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 197712 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Mar 9 16:41:55 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 13:41:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Semi flexible modules In-Reply-To: <302A03C0-B2DF-45BB-A5BC-8542D18B0FC3@gmail.com> References: <302A03C0-B2DF-45BB-A5BC-8542D18B0FC3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, I would questions the assumption that a flexible module is called for for an RV. I've had 600 Watts of traditional framed modules on my Sprinter Van for 10 yrs now.  These are the 1.5" frames (Panasonic HIP195BA3).  I installed 4 rails (prosolar rail) to support the 3 modules the length of the van.  The rails are mounted on top of a beefy stainless steel Sprinter rack that attaches to the drip edge all around very securely - that rack can hold hundreds of pounds - and the  6 uprights that support it extend sllightly above the modules. I find the strong frame edges - coupled with the uprights - clear away any branches I might drive into - and they hold up super well.  No need for flexible modules.  It does present 1.5" of wind resistance to my van's gas mileage - which probably costs more total energy than the solar produces if I drive alot but for having full power as a camper - nothing beats it. Just a thought - it's those assumptions that get us every time! Best! Jeff Jay wrote on 3/8/20 4:02 PM: > Hi all, > Especially those that do RV, > > Any recommendations as to semi flexible modules? I find sun power brand, but many others saying “sun power cells”. > Prices are of course all over the map. > > I am asking because a usual offgrid client bought a camper wants solar installed and the semi flexible modules seem like a better solution than framed. Lighter weight, non glass, less to break, etc > > If anyone has anything to share I’d like to hear about > > Thanks > > Jay > Peltz power. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Mar 9 17:06:23 2020 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 16:06:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Semi flexible modules In-Reply-To: <302A03C0-B2DF-45BB-A5BC-8542D18B0FC3@gmail.com> References: <302A03C0-B2DF-45BB-A5BC-8542D18B0FC3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <30D9C0FD-D35E-4208-B12F-349B57007603@mavericksolar.com> Jay, Are they going to be doing a lot of boondocking? Run-in A/C off grid?? What size battery bank will they use? If you need to have the most watts possible, I suggest using the LG Neons or some other power dense module. As Jeff suggests, a ladder rack frame that mounts to the drip edge is a great method for attaching rails and therefore panels. Good Luck Maverick > On Mar 8, 2020, at 6:02 PM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all, > Especially those that do RV, > > Any recommendations as to semi flexible modules? I find sun power brand, but many others saying “sun power cells”. > Prices are of course all over the map. > > I am asking because a usual offgrid client bought a camper wants solar installed and the semi flexible modules seem like a better solution than framed. Lighter weight, non glass, less to break, etc > > If anyone has anything to share I’d like to hear about > > Thanks > > Jay > Peltz power. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Tue Mar 10 12:14:26 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 12:14:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old & new Enphase communication issues Message-ID: <40434B19-4A42-427D-A85D-964DC58D11C5@swnl.net> Anyone have experience as to wether the Enphase Envoy w/ M215 & the new Enphase products are compatible? I have a client that is interest in adding additional modules & inverters and I don’t want issues regarding mapping & online info. Thanks in advance. T > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com Tue Mar 10 12:16:58 2020 From: PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 16:16:58 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old & new Enphase communication issues In-Reply-To: <40434B19-4A42-427D-A85D-964DC58D11C5@swnl.net> References: <40434B19-4A42-427D-A85D-964DC58D11C5@swnl.net> Message-ID: The IQ series is not compatible with non IQ versions and would need to treated as two separate systems with two Envoys. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax 352 316-1637 Cell The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Tump Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:14 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old & new Enphase communication issues Anyone have experience as to wether the Enphase Envoy w/ M215 & the new Enphase products are compatible? I have a client that is interest in adding additional modules & inverters and I don’t want issues regarding mapping & online info. Thanks in advance. T Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Tue Mar 10 12:19:48 2020 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 12:19:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old & new Enphase communication issues In-Reply-To: References: <40434B19-4A42-427D-A85D-964DC58D11C5@swnl.net> Message-ID: Since Enphase stopped making the old M215's, they have been sending out M215's that look like IQ microinverters, with an adapter. These supposedly work with the old Envoy. I am not sure if they are only available as warranty replacents, or if you can purchase them new though. Cheers, Dave On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 12:17 PM Wayne Irwin wrote: > The IQ series is not compatible with non IQ versions and would need to > treated as two separate systems with two Envoys. > > Wayne Irwin > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > PureEnergySolar.com > SolarChargingStation.com > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > 352 316-1637 Cell > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Tump > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:14 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Old & new Enphase communication issues > > Anyone have experience as to wether the Enphase Envoy w/ M215 & the new > Enphase products are compatible? I have a client that is interest in adding > additional modules & inverters and I don’t want issues regarding mapping & > online info. Thanks in advance. T > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Tue Mar 10 12:37:56 2020 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 16:37:56 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old & new Enphase communication issues In-Reply-To: References: <40434B19-4A42-427D-A85D-964DC58D11C5@swnl.net> , Message-ID: As Dave mentioned, We manufacture M215 and M250 microinverters that are based upon the IQ 7 design and include an adapter cable that allows the microinverter to plug into the legacy Engage cables and talk to the legacy Envoy-S. We sell 40 drop lengths of the portrait Engage cable (ET10-240) as well as Engage Terminators, Engage Seals, Engage wire clips, and Engage Accessory Kits (which include the Disconnect Tools) These are legacy components are available at an online store here: https://store.enphase.com/storefront/ Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Dave Tedeyan Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 9:19 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Old & new Enphase communication issues EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or downloading attachments. Since Enphase stopped making the old M215's, they have been sending out M215's that look like IQ microinverters, with an adapter. These supposedly work with the old Envoy. I am not sure if they are only available as warranty replacents, or if you can purchase them new though. Cheers, Dave On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 12:17 PM Wayne Irwin > wrote: The IQ series is not compatible with non IQ versions and would need to treated as two separate systems with two Envoys. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax 352 316-1637 Cell The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Tump > Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:14 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old & new Enphase communication issues Anyone have experience as to wether the Enphase Envoy w/ M215 & the new Enphase products are compatible? I have a client that is interest in adding additional modules & inverters and I don’t want issues regarding mapping & online info. Thanks in advance. T Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Mar 10 13:32:23 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 10:32:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old & new Enphase communication issues In-Reply-To: References: <40434B19-4A42-427D-A85D-964DC58D11C5@swnl.net> Message-ID: Nick - Slightly different question related to the same topic - can we buy IQ based MIs for legacy positively grounded SunPower systems? Thanks, August Luminalt On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 10:23 AM Nick Soleil wrote: > As Dave mentioned, > > We manufacture M215 and M250 microinverters that are based upon the IQ 7 > design and include an adapter cable that allows the microinverter to plug > into the legacy Engage cables and talk to the legacy Envoy-S. We sell 40 > drop lengths of the portrait Engage cable (ET10-240) as well as Engage > Terminators, Engage Seals, Engage wire clips, and Engage Accessory Kits > (which include the Disconnect Tools) > > These are legacy components are available at an online store here: > https://store.enphase.com/storefront/ > > Cordially, > > Nick Soleil > > Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager > > (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office > > (707) 321-2937 // cell > > *Powering What’s Next*™* | *The Enphase Energy Management System > > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 > > California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Dave Tedeyan > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 10, 2020 9:19 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Old & new Enphase communication issues > > *EXTERNAL EMAIL* - *Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or > downloading attachments.* > > > > > Since Enphase stopped making the old M215's, they have been sending out > M215's that look like IQ microinverters, with an adapter. These supposedly > work with the old Envoy. I am not sure if they are only available as > warranty replacents, or if you can purchase them new though. > Cheers, > Dave > > On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 12:17 PM Wayne Irwin > wrote: > > The IQ series is not compatible with non IQ versions and would need to > treated as two separate systems with two Envoys. > > Wayne Irwin > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > PureEnergySolar.com > SolarChargingStation.com > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > 352 316-1637 Cell > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Tump > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:14 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Old & new Enphase communication issues > > Anyone have experience as to wether the Enphase Envoy w/ M215 & the new > Enphase products are compatible? I have a client that is interest in adding > additional modules & inverters and I don’t want issues regarding mapping & > online info. Thanks in advance. T > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Mar 10 18:21:27 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 18:21:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old & new Enphase communication issues In-Reply-To: References: <40434B19-4A42-427D-A85D-964DC58D11C5@swnl.net> Message-ID: You can have both M series and IQ series in a "system" if you have an old Envoy and a new IQ Envoy. An Enlighten monitoring site can have multiple Envoys of different generations. As always, Envoys should be as electrically close as possible to the MIs. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 12:20 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Since Enphase stopped making the old M215's, they have been sending out > M215's that look like IQ microinverters, with an adapter. These supposedly > work with the old Envoy. I am not sure if they are only available as > warranty replacents, or if you can purchase them new though. > Cheers, > Dave > > On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 12:17 PM Wayne Irwin > wrote: > >> The IQ series is not compatible with non IQ versions and would need to >> treated as two separate systems with two Envoys. >> >> Wayne Irwin >> President >> License #CVC56695 >> State Licensed Solar Contractor >> Pure Energy Solar International Inc. >> Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com >> PureEnergySolar.com >> >> SolarChargingStation.com >> >> 352 377-6527 Office >> 352 336-3299 Fax >> 352 316-1637 Cell >> >> The Sun Is Always Shining! >> >> The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are >> not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use >> or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail >> and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Tump >> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:14 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Old & new Enphase communication issues >> >> Anyone have experience as to wether the Enphase Envoy w/ M215 & the new >> Enphase products are compatible? I have a client that is interest in adding >> additional modules & inverters and I don’t want issues regarding mapping & >> online info. Thanks in advance. T >> >> *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* >> * 207-832-7574 Cl. >> 610-517-8401 * >> *Blair "TUMP" May* >> >> >> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* >> >> >> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 20:14:45 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 17:14:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old & new Enphase communication issues In-Reply-To: <40434B19-4A42-427D-A85D-964DC58D11C5@swnl.net> References: <40434B19-4A42-427D-A85D-964DC58D11C5@swnl.net> Message-ID: Tump The new inverters communicate at a different frequency then the older units, you will need a new EMU to connect to the new inverters, as so many of the older units have failed it might be best to upgrade all the inverters at the same time if they are compatible with your older modules Jerry On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:14 AM Tump wrote: > Anyone have experience as to wether the Enphase Envoy w/ M215 & the new > Enphase products are compatible? I have a client that is interest in adding > additional modules & inverters and I don’t want issues regarding mapping & > online info. Thanks in advance. T > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Tue Mar 10 13:59:52 2020 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 17:59:52 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old & new Enphase communication issues In-Reply-To: References: <40434B19-4A42-427D-A85D-964DC58D11C5@swnl.net> , Message-ID: Hi August, These IQ based micros will not work with the legacy, positively grounded Sunpower modules, but these will work for expanding to those systems. Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of August Goers Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 10:32 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Old & new Enphase communication issues EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or downloading attachments. Nick - Slightly different question related to the same topic - can we buy IQ based MIs for legacy positively grounded SunPower systems? Thanks, August Luminalt On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 10:23 AM Nick Soleil > wrote: As Dave mentioned, We manufacture M215 and M250 microinverters that are based upon the IQ 7 design and include an adapter cable that allows the microinverter to plug into the legacy Engage cables and talk to the legacy Envoy-S. We sell 40 drop lengths of the portrait Engage cable (ET10-240) as well as Engage Terminators, Engage Seals, Engage wire clips, and Engage Accessory Kits (which include the Disconnect Tools) These are legacy components are available at an online store here: https://store.enphase.com/storefront/ Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Dave Tedeyan > Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 9:19 AM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Old & new Enphase communication issues EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or downloading attachments. Since Enphase stopped making the old M215's, they have been sending out M215's that look like IQ microinverters, with an adapter. These supposedly work with the old Envoy. I am not sure if they are only available as warranty replacents, or if you can purchase them new though. Cheers, Dave On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 12:17 PM Wayne Irwin > wrote: The IQ series is not compatible with non IQ versions and would need to treated as two separate systems with two Envoys. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax 352 316-1637 Cell The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Tump > Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:14 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old & new Enphase communication issues Anyone have experience as to wether the Enphase Envoy w/ M215 & the new Enphase products are compatible? I have a client that is interest in adding additional modules & inverters and I don’t want issues regarding mapping & online info. Thanks in advance. T Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 11 12:18:29 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 12:18:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disconnect spacing Message-ID: I have an inspector telling me that this pictured fusible disconnect is too close to the adjacent enclosure. Is anyone aware of a code supported spacing requirement or manufacturer specification on such a thing? I have 3-1/2 inches from the handle to the enclosure which I believe is ample space for safe and effective operation of the handle. Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CameraZOOM-20200311121356077.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1500320 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Wed Mar 11 13:34:31 2020 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 17:34:31 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old & new Enphase communication issues In-Reply-To: References: <40434B19-4A42-427D-A85D-964DC58D11C5@swnl.net>, Message-ID: Hi Wayne, Jerry, and Wrenches, The statements made about IQ not being compatible with legacy Envoy-S systems is mostly true, but that does not apply to the microinverters listed on the Enphase store. The M215 and M250 micro kits that are listed on the Enphase store include a communications adapter cable that changes the PLC signals from L-L to L-N. There are also modifications to the inverter to allow it to talk at the same frequency (144kHz) as the Envoy-S. The adapter cable also allows the microinverter to plug into the legacy Engage cables and talk to the legacy Envoy-S. We sell 40 drop lengths of the portrait Engage cable (ET10-240) as well as Engage Terminators, Engage Seals, Engage wire clips, and Engage Accessory Kits (which include the Disconnect Tools) These are legacy components are available at an online store here: https://store.enphase.com/storefront/ Note: the M215 and M250 microinverters do not have the ability to perform advanced grid functions (AGF) functions. These micros can be used for small expansion systems, but for larger expansions it makes sense to just install an IQ Envoy (second Envoy) at the site. You can have two Envoys and put them on a single Enlighten "System". Be thoughtful about how you configure the consumption CTs when you have two Envoys. If you have two Envoys, the production from the two Production CTs (and Consumption CTs) will be added in the cloud and will display correctly. You need to be careful though if the production from one system is on the load side of the other systems consumption CTs. That production will throw off the consumption readings. You can fix that by installing a second set of parallel connected consumption CTs backwards on the production circuit to subtract that production from the consumption CT readings Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jerry Shafer Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 5:14 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Old & new Enphase communication issues EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or downloading attachments. Tump The new inverters communicate at a different frequency then the older units, you will need a new EMU to connect to the new inverters, as so many of the older units have failed it might be best to upgrade all the inverters at the same time if they are compatible with your older modules Jerry On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:14 AM Tump > wrote: Anyone have experience as to wether the Enphase Envoy w/ M215 & the new Enphase products are compatible? I have a client that is interest in adding additional modules & inverters and I don’t want issues regarding mapping & online info. Thanks in advance. T Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Wed Mar 11 13:53:35 2020 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 11:53:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disconnect spacing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looks fine to me, Jason. Did you ask him to cite a particular code rule? Only other issue would be is if either of those pieces requires more space in their install instructions/Mfgr specs. Good luck Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 > On Mar 11, 2020, at 10:18 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I have an inspector telling me that this pictured fusible disconnect is too close to the adjacent enclosure. Is anyone aware of a code supported spacing requirement or manufacturer specification on such a thing? I have 3-1/2 inches from the handle to the enclosure which I believe is ample space for safe and effective operation of the handle. > > Jason Szumlanski > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From august at luminalt.com Wed Mar 11 14:10:11 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 11:10:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disconnect spacing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason - I'm not understanding what your inspector is pushing back on. The enclosure lid needs to be able to open, the handle needs to be accessible for operation, and NEC 110.26 working clearances need to be maintained. I suppose there may be manufacturer clearance requirements, but I haven't seen them for standard knife blade disconnects. August Luminalt On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 10:23 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I have an inspector telling me that this pictured fusible disconnect is > too close to the adjacent enclosure. Is anyone aware of a code supported > spacing requirement or manufacturer specification on such a thing? I have > 3-1/2 inches from the handle to the enclosure which I believe is ample > space for safe and effective operation of the handle. > > Jason Szumlanski > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Wed Mar 11 15:52:05 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 12:52:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disconnect spacing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6e6ae2e4-09ef-73df-b53e-fd95b5512c23@villagepowerdesign.com> Yes, what others said - my understanding is that as long as the door can open 90º then it's considered not in the way of working space. Jeff Clearwater August Goers wrote on 3/11/20 11:10 AM: > Jason - I'm not understanding what your inspector is pushing back on. > The enclosure lid needs to be able to open, the handle needs to be > accessible for operation, and NEC 110.26 working clearances need to be > maintained. I suppose there may be manufacturer clearance > requirements, but I haven't seen them for standard knife blade > disconnects. > > August > Luminalt > > > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 10:23 AM Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > I have an inspector telling me that this pictured fusible > disconnect is too close to the adjacent enclosure. Is anyone aware > of a code supported spacing requirement or manufacturer > specification on such a thing? I have 3-1/2 inches from the handle > to the enclosure which I believe is ample space for safe and > effective operation of the handle. > > Jason Szumlanski > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 17:25:36 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 17:25:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disconnect spacing In-Reply-To: <6e6ae2e4-09ef-73df-b53e-fd95b5512c23@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <6e6ae2e4-09ef-73df-b53e-fd95b5512c23@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: I've looked through Article 110 and even UL listings for GE disconnects and there is no specific code of reference to minimum space about the component (other than typical working space requirements). Ask your AHJ to point to a code reference... On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 4:42 PM Jeff Clearwater < jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: > Yes, what others said - my understanding is that as long as the door can > open 90º then it's considered not in the way of working space. > > Jeff Clearwater > > > August Goers wrote on 3/11/20 11:10 AM: > > Jason - I'm not understanding what your inspector is pushing back on. The > enclosure lid needs to be able to open, the handle needs to be accessible > for operation, and NEC 110.26 working clearances need to be maintained. I > suppose there may be manufacturer clearance requirements, but I haven't > seen them for standard knife blade disconnects. > > August > Luminalt > > > > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 10:23 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I have an inspector telling me that this pictured fusible disconnect is >> too close to the adjacent enclosure. Is anyone aware of a code supported >> spacing requirement or manufacturer specification on such a thing? I have >> 3-1/2 inches from the handle to the enclosure which I believe is ample >> space for safe and effective operation of the handle. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 11 18:03:17 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 18:03:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disconnect spacing In-Reply-To: References: <6e6ae2e4-09ef-73df-b53e-fd95b5512c23@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: I'm meeting him tomorrow. He tells me it's too close but I can't get him to tell me what an acceptable distance would be. It's totally insane. I was pretty sure there was nothing in the NEC about this specifically, but I wanted to make sure before I asked him to cite a code reference in his rejection letter so I could appeal it to the chief. On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 5:52 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote: > I've looked through Article 110 and even UL listings for GE disconnects > and there is no specific code of reference to minimum space about the > component (other than typical working space requirements). Ask your AHJ to > point to a code reference... > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 4:42 PM Jeff Clearwater < > jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: > >> Yes, what others said - my understanding is that as long as the door can >> open 90º then it's considered not in the way of working space. >> >> Jeff Clearwater >> >> >> August Goers wrote on 3/11/20 11:10 AM: >> >> Jason - I'm not understanding what your inspector is pushing back on. The >> enclosure lid needs to be able to open, the handle needs to be accessible >> for operation, and NEC 110.26 working clearances need to be maintained. I >> suppose there may be manufacturer clearance requirements, but I haven't >> seen them for standard knife blade disconnects. >> >> August >> Luminalt >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 10:23 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> I have an inspector telling me that this pictured fusible disconnect is >>> too close to the adjacent enclosure. Is anyone aware of a code supported >>> spacing requirement or manufacturer specification on such a thing? I have >>> 3-1/2 inches from the handle to the enclosure which I believe is ample >>> space for safe and effective operation of the handle. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -- >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> linkedin >> >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> >> cell - 413-559-9763 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Mar 11 20:30:48 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 20:30:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disconnect spacing In-Reply-To: References: <6e6ae2e4-09ef-73df-b53e-fd95b5512c23@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: I've heard this before as well, but as you found, I too have never found specific info on clearance distance.  Obviously there needs to be enough space to get your hand in there to operate the disconnect, but as others pointed out, it looks fine.   Please share if you get an actual inches clearance.  We will all then file it with the rest of the arcane, but occasionally important info rattling about in our solar electric brains. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/11/20 4:03 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > I'm meeting him tomorrow. He tells me it's too close but I can't get > him to tell me what an acceptable distance would be. It's totally > insane. I was pretty sure there was nothing in the NEC about this > specifically, but I wanted to make sure before I asked him to cite a > code reference in his rejection letter so I could appeal it to the chief. > > * > > * > > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 5:52 PM Chris Sparadeo > > wrote: > > I've looked through Article 110 and even UL listings for GE > disconnects and there is no specific code of reference to minimum > space about the component (other than typical working space > requirements). Ask your AHJ to point to a code reference... > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 4:42 PM Jeff Clearwater > > wrote: > > Yes, what others said - my understanding is that as long as > the door can open 90º then it's considered not in the way of > working space. > > Jeff Clearwater > > > August Goers wrote on 3/11/20 11:10 AM: >> Jason - I'm not understanding what your inspector is pushing >> back on. The enclosure lid needs to be able to open, the >> handle needs to be accessible for operation, and NEC 110.26 >> working clearances need to be maintained. I suppose there may >> be manufacturer clearance requirements, but I haven't seen >> them for standard knife blade disconnects. >> >> August >> Luminalt >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 10:23 AM Jason Szumlanski >> > > wrote: >> >> I have an inspector telling me that this pictured fusible >> disconnect is too close to the adjacent enclosure. Is >> anyone aware of a code supported spacing requirement or >> manufacturer specification on such a thing? I have 3-1/2 >> inches from the handle to the enclosure which I believe >> is ample space for safe and effective operation of the >> handle. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > > > www.villagepowerdesign.com > > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Mar 12 10:27:30 2020 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 07:27:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disconnect spacing In-Reply-To: References: <6e6ae2e4-09ef-73df-b53e-fd95b5512c23@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <272834ee-dcbf-8818-ba54-0c8bfdedd9e9@psln.com> Of course then there is the "bottom line", final say approval determined by the AHJ which might be hard for this inspector to refuse your clearances when he/she is asked to operate that switch and see that there is zero issue with its safe and easy operation.  AHJ's are allowed to use common sense. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 3/11/2020 3:03 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > I'm meeting him tomorrow. He tells me it's too close but I can't get > him to tell me what an acceptable distance would be. It's totally > insane. I was pretty sure there was nothing in the NEC about this > specifically, but I wanted to make sure before I asked him to cite a > code reference in his rejection letter so I could appeal it to the chief. > > * > > * > > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 5:52 PM Chris Sparadeo > > wrote: > > I've looked through Article 110 and even UL listings for GE > disconnects and there is no specific code of reference to minimum > space about the component (other than typical working space > requirements). Ask your AHJ to point to a code reference... > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 4:42 PM Jeff Clearwater > > wrote: > > Yes, what others said - my understanding is that as long as > the door can open 90º then it's considered not in the way of > working space. > > Jeff Clearwater > > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Mar 12 14:15:00 2020 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 12:15:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Advice on my first 100 KW 3 phase. Message-ID: <004501d5f89a$25fd0a90$71f71fb0$@solarwork.com> 32 years in the biz & I am quoting my first 100 KW - 3 phase roof mounted standing seam roof mounted Gov't installation. Is there anyone who would be willing to discuss in a phone call: the potential man hours &/or $/watt on a roof mounted standing seam roof installation. Please let me know off line. Thank you. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 15:46:05 2020 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (David Palumbo) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 15:46:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surrette/Rolls contact info? In-Reply-To: References: <40434B19-4A42-427D-A85D-964DC58D11C5@swnl.net>, Message-ID: <5e6a917d.1c69fb81.62bb1.0527@mx.google.com> I’m looking for contact info for Steve Higgins of Surrette / Rolls Battery. Thank you, Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, VT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Thu Mar 12 16:17:44 2020 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 13:17:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surrette/Rolls contact info? In-Reply-To: <5e6a917d.1c69fb81.62bb1.0527@mx.google.com> References: <40434B19-4A42-427D-A85D-964DC58D11C5@swnl.net> <5e6a917d.1c69fb81.62bb1.0527@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Replied off List... Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ *Become a Certified PV Professional. Register for* *NABCEP CEC 2020* *using promo code* *20RBE* ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 12:46 PM David Palumbo wrote: > I’m looking for contact info for Steve Higgins of Surrette / Rolls Battery. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Dave Palumbo > > Hyde Park, VT > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Mar 12 20:01:16 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 20:01:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disconnect spacing In-Reply-To: <272834ee-dcbf-8818-ba54-0c8bfdedd9e9@psln.com> References: <6e6ae2e4-09ef-73df-b53e-fd95b5512c23@villagepowerdesign.com> <272834ee-dcbf-8818-ba54-0c8bfdedd9e9@psln.com> Message-ID: Well, after meeting at the site, demonstrating that it worked just fine, he relented. He made some excuse about something completely unrelated. I think he just wanted to "meet the contractor" and see that I actually know what I'm doing. I'm seeing a lot of that. Reputation means a lot. On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 1:20 PM frenergy wrote: > Of course then there is the "bottom line", final say approval determined > by the AHJ which might be hard for this inspector to refuse your clearances > when he/she is asked to operate that switch and see that there is zero > issue with its safe and easy operation. AHJ's are allowed to use common > sense. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > On 3/11/2020 3:03 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I'm meeting him tomorrow. He tells me it's too close but I can't get him > to tell me what an acceptable distance would be. It's totally insane. I was > pretty sure there was nothing in the NEC about this specifically, but I > wanted to make sure before I asked him to cite a code reference in his > rejection letter so I could appeal it to the chief. > > > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 5:52 PM Chris Sparadeo > wrote: > >> I've looked through Article 110 and even UL listings for GE disconnects >> and there is no specific code of reference to minimum space about the >> component (other than typical working space requirements). Ask your AHJ to >> point to a code reference... >> >> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 4:42 PM Jeff Clearwater < >> jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: >> >>> Yes, what others said - my understanding is that as long as the door can >>> open 90º then it's considered not in the way of working space. >>> >>> Jeff Clearwater >>> >>> >>> > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_740147750430808066_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 22:42:13 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 22:42:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surrette/Rolls contact info? In-Reply-To: <5e6a917d.1c69fb81.62bb1.0527@mx.google.com> References: <40434B19-4A42-427D-A85D-964DC58D11C5@swnl.net> <5e6a917d.1c69fb81.62bb1.0527@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hey Dave! I don't have a phone number, but his email is: steve at surrette.com Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 3:54 PM David Palumbo wrote: > I’m looking for contact info for Steve Higgins of Surrette / Rolls Battery. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Dave Palumbo > > Hyde Park, VT > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 23:29:20 2020 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (David Palumbo) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 23:29:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surrette/Rolls contact info? In-Reply-To: References: <40434B19-4A42-427D-A85D-964DC58D11C5@swnl.net> <5e6a917d.1c69fb81.62bb1.0527@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5e6afe10.1c69fb81.5273e.a4e4@mx.google.com> All set everyone on Steve Higgins contact info. Thanks for the quick reply’s, much appreciated! Dave Palumbo Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Howie Michaelson Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 10:42 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette/Rolls contact info? Hey Dave!  I don't have a phone number, but his email is: steve at surrette.com Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 3:54 PM David Palumbo wrote: I’m looking for contact info for Steve Higgins of Surrette / Rolls Battery.   Thank you,   Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, VT     _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Fri Mar 13 00:01:07 2020 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 21:01:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surrette/Rolls contact info? In-Reply-To: <5e6a917d.1c69fb81.62bb1.0527@mx.google.com> References: <40434B19-4A42-427D-A85D-964DC58D11C5@swnl.net> <5e6a917d.1c69fb81.62bb1.0527@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1584072731702.6ae29f3a48a064b1@re-wrenches.org> Hi gang. This is a good time to remind Wrenches that each of you has a biography page, as do the manufacturer reps on the list. So asking the list is not needed, and considered off-topic. The link to the bios is at the bottom of every Wrench List message, including this one. This also would be a good time to remind Wrenches to check their own bios to make sure they are current. Someone wrote at 12:46 PM 3/12/2020: >I'm looking for contact info for Steve Higgins of Surrette / Rolls Battery. > >Thank you, From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Fri Mar 13 15:02:53 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 12:02:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Brown-Out Prone Opportunity Charging Message-ID: <335b9d21-fe60-463a-34b8-255f4fd79530@villagepowerdesign.com> Good Day Esteemed Wrenchers, So we are doing more work in developing countries where the grid is super unreliable but on for some hours almost daily. So let's say we have a grid that's on 9 AM - 11 AM and 4 PM - 7 PM each day but often browns-out during those hours and comes on and off during those hours. 230 VAC voltage can drop to 160-180 periodically or go above 260 in spikes. The present practice in many of these situations is for battery based system designers/installers is to set up an off-grid system in parallel to the mains but not relying on them - so the grid AC IN is not connected.  They just install a transfer switch and manually switch or they wire a critical loads panel to the solar. This avoids constant switching and nuisance shut-downs from the battery inverter and protects it from burning out trying to handle the grid. MY QUESTION: I'm wondering what we can do to use the grid when it is up for opportunity charging of the batteries while at the same time not subjecting our nice new battery inverters to constant brown-out tripping and possibly long term damage. So question #1 - Is anyone using existing battery inverters but succesfully navigating such a grid variablity settings such that you are able to take advantage of the grid even if browning out often? or question #2 - Can we add some sort of high Voltage and Frequency tolerant battery charger to the system - keep the battery inverter/charger off grid - but charge the batteries from something able to handle the wonky grid without constantly nuisance charging or burning itself up? Your thoughts and wisdom I await!!! Best, Jeff -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 15:41:57 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 15:41:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Brown-Out Prone Opportunity Charging In-Reply-To: <335b9d21-fe60-463a-34b8-255f4fd79530@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <335b9d21-fe60-463a-34b8-255f4fd79530@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Hi Jeff, Kind of an odd suggestion, but what if you try the following: Install a 240v to 120v auto transformer (like the Outback PSX 240) and have the grid feed your 240v input and then either split your 120v output into 2 conductors for 240v or transform from 120 back to 240v. This may help take some of the wonky voltage right down to a constant output voltage. I’ve never tried this, but sounds crazy enough to work. On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 3:02 PM Jeff Clearwater < jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: > Good Day Esteemed Wrenchers, > > So we are doing more work in developing countries where the grid is super > unreliable but on for some hours almost daily. > > So let's say we have a grid that's on 9 AM - 11 AM and 4 PM - 7 PM each > day but often browns-out during those hours and comes on and off during > those hours. 230 VAC voltage can drop to 160-180 periodically or go above > 260 in spikes. > > The present practice in many of these situations is for battery based > system designers/installers is to set up an off-grid system in parallel to > the mains but not relying on them - so the grid AC IN is not connected. > They just install a transfer switch and manually switch or they wire a > critical loads panel to the solar. > > This avoids constant switching and nuisance shut-downs from the battery > inverter and protects it from burning out trying to handle the grid. > > MY QUESTION: > > I'm wondering what we can do to use the grid when it is up for opportunity > charging of the batteries while at the same time not subjecting our nice > new battery inverters to constant brown-out tripping and possibly long term > damage. > > So question #1 - Is anyone using existing battery inverters but > succesfully navigating such a grid variablity settings such that you are > able to take advantage of the grid even if browning out often? > > or question #2 - Can we add some sort of high Voltage and Frequency > tolerant battery charger to the system - keep the battery inverter/charger > off grid - but charge the batteries from something able to handle the wonky > grid without constantly nuisance charging or burning itself up? > > Your thoughts and wisdom I await!!! > > Best, > > Jeff > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 17:11:08 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 14:11:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Brown-Out Prone Opportunity Charging In-Reply-To: <335b9d21-fe60-463a-34b8-255f4fd79530@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <335b9d21-fe60-463a-34b8-255f4fd79530@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Jeff I have been there too in most cases we have programmed in the VAC max/mins with tighter setting so as the grid starts to go we just disconnect. I did just do a charger instead of the inverter because the grid was generally low on frequency but the charger just charged and l see it on optics when that happens Jerry On Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 12:03 PM Jeff Clearwater wrote: > Good Day Esteemed Wrenchers, > > So we are doing more work in developing countries where the grid is super > unreliable but on for some hours almost daily. > > So let's say we have a grid that's on 9 AM - 11 AM and 4 PM - 7 PM each > day but often browns-out during those hours and comes on and off during > those hours. 230 VAC voltage can drop to 160-180 periodically or go above > 260 in spikes. > > The present practice in many of these situations is for battery based > system designers/installers is to set up an off-grid system in parallel to > the mains but not relying on them - so the grid AC IN is not connected. > They just install a transfer switch and manually switch or they wire a > critical loads panel to the solar. > > This avoids constant switching and nuisance shut-downs from the battery > inverter and protects it from burning out trying to handle the grid. > > MY QUESTION: > > I'm wondering what we can do to use the grid when it is up for opportunity > charging of the batteries while at the same time not subjecting our nice > new battery inverters to constant brown-out tripping and possibly long term > damage. > > So question #1 - Is anyone using existing battery inverters but > succesfully navigating such a grid variablity settings such that you are > able to take advantage of the grid even if browning out often? > > or question #2 - Can we add some sort of high Voltage and Frequency > tolerant battery charger to the system - keep the battery inverter/charger > off grid - but charge the batteries from something able to handle the wonky > grid without constantly nuisance charging or burning itself up? > > Your thoughts and wisdom I await!!! > > Best, > > Jeff > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Mar 13 17:31:00 2020 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 14:31:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Brown-Out Prone Opportunity Charging In-Reply-To: <335b9d21-fe60-463a-34b8-255f4fd79530@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <335b9d21-fe60-463a-34b8-255f4fd79530@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <19E2B185-2E06-4771-B14F-5F6FD1FA4336@starlightsolar.com> Hello Jeff, Why mess with the grids unreliable and potentially harmful power. Go with your question 2…. using the power inverters full time with no AC input, no transfer switch. You will need a power supply/battery charger large enough to power the loads through the inverter and maintain the battery at 100%. Protect the PS with the appropriate AC surge or LV protection. With this setup your AC power is always on with no brownouts or loss of power. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Mar 13, 2020, at 12:02 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Good Day Esteemed Wrenchers, So we are doing more work in developing countries where the grid is super unreliable but on for some hours almost daily. So let's say we have a grid that's on 9 AM - 11 AM and 4 PM - 7 PM each day but often browns-out during those hours and comes on and off during those hours. 230 VAC voltage can drop to 160-180 periodically or go above 260 in spikes. The present practice in many of these situations is for battery based system designers/installers is to set up an off-grid system in parallel to the mains but not relying on them - so the grid AC IN is not connected. They just install a transfer switch and manually switch or they wire a critical loads panel to the solar. This avoids constant switching and nuisance shut-downs from the battery inverter and protects it from burning out trying to handle the grid. MY QUESTION: I'm wondering what we can do to use the grid when it is up for opportunity charging of the batteries while at the same time not subjecting our nice new battery inverters to constant brown-out tripping and possibly long term damage. So question #1 - Is anyone using existing battery inverters but succesfully navigating such a grid variablity settings such that you are able to take advantage of the grid even if browning out often? or question #2 - Can we add some sort of high Voltage and Frequency tolerant battery charger to the system - keep the battery inverter/charger off grid - but charge the batteries from something able to handle the wonky grid without constantly nuisance charging or burning itself up? Your thoughts and wisdom I await!!! Best, Jeff -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 1380 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Fri Mar 13 17:43:54 2020 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 15:43:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Brown-Out Prone Opportunity Charging Message-ID: Hello, Jeff & All~ In the world of high end yachts, the crew needs to be able to plug in and charge in various regions of the world. Some marine oriented battery chargers are "universal input" & designed to run from 90v to 265 volts, 50/60 hz according to one spec sheet for the Victron Phoenix. The actual frequency tolerance may be more wide than what the specs say; check the manual to be sure. Jeff's suggested strategy puts the charger/battery/inverter in between the messy grid power and the loads. It's sort of a power quality buffer. The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Mar 13 17:47:24 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 17:47:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Brown-Out Prone Opportunity Charging In-Reply-To: References: <335b9d21-fe60-463a-34b8-255f4fd79530@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <7AD19D08-D0DC-4BAE-AAEC-38202CA63F49@swnl.net> Check out the Victron line of Chargers as well as the inverter charger units. AC in 187-265 45-65 Hz. for the inverters 230V/50Hz, inverter. Please feel free to e mail me 4 additional info. Great BT support / internet access. well thought out product. > On Mar 13, 2020, at 5:11 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Jeff > I have been there too in most cases we have programmed in the VAC max/mins with tighter setting so as the grid starts to go we just disconnect. I did just do a charger instead of the inverter because the grid was generally low on frequency but the charger just charged and l see it on optics when that happens > Jerry > > On Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 12:03 PM Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > Good Day Esteemed Wrenchers, > > So we are doing more work in developing countries where the grid is super unreliable but on for some hours almost daily. > > So let's say we have a grid that's on 9 AM - 11 AM and 4 PM - 7 PM each day but often browns-out during those hours and comes on and off during those hours. 230 VAC voltage can drop to 160-180 periodically or go above 260 in spikes. > > The present practice in many of these situations is for battery based system designers/installers is to set up an off-grid system in parallel to the mains but not relying on them - so the grid AC IN is not connected. They just install a transfer switch and manually switch or they wire a critical loads panel to the solar. > > This avoids constant switching and nuisance shut-downs from the battery inverter and protects it from burning out trying to handle the grid. > > MY QUESTION: > > I'm wondering what we can do to use the grid when it is up for opportunity charging of the batteries while at the same time not subjecting our nice new battery inverters to constant brown-out tripping and possibly long term damage. > > So question #1 - Is anyone using existing battery inverters but succesfully navigating such a grid variablity settings such that you are able to take advantage of the grid even if browning out often? > > or question #2 - Can we add some sort of high Voltage and Frequency tolerant battery charger to the system - keep the battery inverter/charger off grid - but charge the batteries from something able to handle the wonky grid without constantly nuisance charging or burning itself up? > > Your thoughts and wisdom I await!!! > > Best, > > Jeff > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Fri Mar 13 21:09:58 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 18:09:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Brown-Out Prone Opportunity Charging In-Reply-To: <7AD19D08-D0DC-4BAE-AAEC-38202CA63F49@swnl.net> References: <335b9d21-fe60-463a-34b8-255f4fd79530@villagepowerdesign.com> <7AD19D08-D0DC-4BAE-AAEC-38202CA63F49@swnl.net> Message-ID: Thanks All, Mick and Tump - I'll look into the Victron - good suggestion - Thanks! Chris - I'm not sure a transformer will buffer the spikes and frequency but just pass them on - others? Larry and Jerry - If I were to go with the separate battery charger/PS approach - what specific  48 V  LFeP battery Charger/PS might you recommend and how to protect it with what sort of surge and LV equipment?  If either the inverter or PS/Charger is protected within too narrow a range then it might defeat the purpose - wanting to maximize pulling in as much opportunity charging as we can get. Seems to me like there might be a market for a highly tolerant battery charger between 160-260 VAC and frequency tolerant as well - something bulletproof we could put on these systems - perhaps that is the Victron - but I'd rather have it in a separate beefy battery charger then risk the inverters - especially if we are going to buffer the customer from the grid with the battery/inverter system. For instance we have a hospital that can only use the available grid for the office but they can't risk it for their hospital equipment.  But If I could pull the grid into batteries safely and always power their loads with the high reliability battery/inverter system - now we are talking. So specific 48V battery chargers that can take it? Any equipment out there anyone is aware of? Thanks! Jeff Tump wrote on 3/13/20 2:47 PM: > Check out the Victron line of Chargers as well as the inverter charger > units. AC in 187-265 45-65 Hz. for the inverters 230V/50Hz, inverter. > Please feel free to e mail me 4 additional info. Great BT support / > internet access. well thought out product. >> On Mar 13, 2020, at 5:11 PM, Jerry Shafer > > wrote: >> >> Jeff >> I have been there too in most cases we have programmed in the VAC >> max/mins with tighter setting so as the grid starts to go we just >> disconnect. I did just do a charger instead of the inverter because >> the grid was generally low on frequency but the charger just charged >> and l see it on optics when that happens >> Jerry >> >> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 12:03 PM Jeff Clearwater >> > >> wrote: >> >> Good Day Esteemed Wrenchers, >> >> So we are doing more work in developing countries where the grid >> is super unreliable but on for some hours almost daily. >> >> So let's say we have a grid that's on 9 AM - 11 AM and 4 PM - 7 >> PM each day but often browns-out during those hours and comes on >> and off during those hours. 230 VAC voltage can drop to 160-180 >> periodically or go above 260 in spikes. >> >> The present practice in many of these situations is for battery >> based system designers/installers is to set up an off-grid system >> in parallel to the mains but not relying on them - so the grid AC >> IN is not connected.  They just install a transfer switch and >> manually switch or they wire a critical loads panel to the solar. >> >> This avoids constant switching and nuisance shut-downs from the >> battery inverter and protects it from burning out trying to >> handle the grid. >> >> MY QUESTION: >> >> I'm wondering what we can do to use the grid when it is up for >> opportunity charging of the batteries while at the same time not >> subjecting our nice new battery inverters to constant brown-out >> tripping and possibly long term damage. >> >> So question #1 - Is anyone using existing battery inverters but >> succesfully navigating such a grid variablity settings such that >> you are able to take advantage of the grid even if browning out >> often? >> >> or question #2 - Can we add some sort of high Voltage and >> Frequency tolerant battery charger to the system - keep the >> battery inverter/charger off grid - but charge the batteries from >> something able to handle the wonky grid without constantly >> nuisance charging or burning itself up? >> >> Your thoughts and wisdom I await!!! >> >> Best, >> >> Jeff >> >> >> -- >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> linkedin >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> cell - 413-559-9763 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> *Tump at swnl.net >> **www.SWNL.net* >> >> Solarwinds Northernlights *//* >> */       Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California/**/ >> /**/ 207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401 /* >> *//**/Blair "TUMP" May/* >> >> */     ********  MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> /**//**/NABCEP    "Certified PV Installer"/**/ >> /**/ >>   ********  MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> /**/Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"/* >> >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Fri Mar 13 21:13:55 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 18:13:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Brown-Out Prone Opportunity Charging In-Reply-To: References: <335b9d21-fe60-463a-34b8-255f4fd79530@villagepowerdesign.com> <7AD19D08-D0DC-4BAE-AAEC-38202CA63F49@swnl.net> Message-ID: Ahh I see now the Victron does have a line of Chargers that are not also Inverters. Thanks! Anyone else with experience with specific equipment? Thanks again, Jeff Jeff Clearwater wrote on 3/13/20 6:09 PM: > Thanks All, > > Mick and Tump - I'll look into the Victron - good suggestion - Thanks! > > Chris - I'm not sure a transformer will buffer the spikes and > frequency but just pass them on - others? > > Larry and Jerry - If I were to go with the separate battery charger/PS > approach - what specific  48 V  LFeP battery Charger/PS might you > recommend and how to protect it with what sort of surge and LV > equipment?  If either the inverter or PS/Charger is protected within > too narrow a range then it might defeat the purpose - wanting to > maximize pulling in as much opportunity charging as we can get. > > Seems to me like there might be a market for a highly tolerant battery > charger between 160-260 VAC and frequency tolerant as well - something > bulletproof we could put on these systems - perhaps that is the > Victron - but I'd rather have it in a separate beefy battery charger > then risk the inverters - especially if we are going to buffer the > customer from the grid with the battery/inverter system. > > For instance we have a hospital that can only use the available grid > for the office but they can't risk it for their hospital equipment.  > But If I could pull the grid into batteries safely and always power > their loads with the high reliability battery/inverter system - now we > are talking. > > So specific 48V battery chargers that can take it? Any equipment out > there anyone is aware of? > > Thanks! > > Jeff > > Tump wrote on 3/13/20 2:47 PM: >> Check out the Victron line of Chargers as well as the inverter >> charger units. AC in 187-265 45-65 Hz. for the inverters 230V/50Hz, >> inverter. >> Please feel free to e mail me 4 additional info. Great BT support / >> internet access. well thought out product. >>> On Mar 13, 2020, at 5:11 PM, Jerry Shafer >> > wrote: >>> >>> Jeff >>> I have been there too in most cases we have programmed in the VAC >>> max/mins with tighter setting so as the grid starts to go we just >>> disconnect. I did just do a charger instead of the inverter because >>> the grid was generally low on frequency but the charger just charged >>> and l see it on optics when that happens >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 12:03 PM Jeff Clearwater >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> Good Day Esteemed Wrenchers, >>> >>> So we are doing more work in developing countries where the grid >>> is super unreliable but on for some hours almost daily. >>> >>> So let's say we have a grid that's on 9 AM - 11 AM and 4 PM - 7 >>> PM each day but often browns-out during those hours and comes on >>> and off during those hours. 230 VAC voltage can drop to 160-180 >>> periodically or go above 260 in spikes. >>> >>> The present practice in many of these situations is for battery >>> based system designers/installers is to set up an off-grid >>> system in parallel to the mains but not relying on them - so the >>> grid AC IN is not connected.  They just install a transfer >>> switch and manually switch or they wire a critical loads panel >>> to the solar. >>> >>> This avoids constant switching and nuisance shut-downs from the >>> battery inverter and protects it from burning out trying to >>> handle the grid. >>> >>> MY QUESTION: >>> >>> I'm wondering what we can do to use the grid when it is up for >>> opportunity charging of the batteries while at the same time not >>> subjecting our nice new battery inverters to constant brown-out >>> tripping and possibly long term damage. >>> >>> So question #1 - Is anyone using existing battery inverters but >>> succesfully navigating such a grid variablity settings such that >>> you are able to take advantage of the grid even if browning out >>> often? >>> >>> or question #2 - Can we add some sort of high Voltage and >>> Frequency tolerant battery charger to the system - keep the >>> battery inverter/charger off grid - but charge the batteries >>> from something able to handle the wonky grid without constantly >>> nuisance charging or burning itself up? >>> >>> Your thoughts and wisdom I await!!! >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> Jeff Clearwater >>> Village Power Design >>> linkedin >>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> *Tump at swnl.net >>> **www.SWNL.net* >>> >>> Solarwinds Northernlights *//* >>> */       Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California/**/ >>> /**/ 207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401 /* >>> *//**/Blair "TUMP" May/* >>> >>> */     ********  MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> /**//**/NABCEP    "Certified PV Installer"/**/ >>> /**/ >>>   ********  MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> /**/Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"/* >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scoraigwind at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 05:03:08 2020 From: scoraigwind at gmail.com (Hugh Piggott) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 09:03:08 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFX produces no output with no error In-Reply-To: <3bcc107d-7355-e31c-c26f-f691942f8521@solarray.com> References: <176bc849-5135-3ace-81c1-891eaf8d4fda@sindelarsolar.com> <45b5da91-6e59-ff46-615a-b8484d982fd1@coveoregon.com> <3bcc107d-7355-e31c-c26f-f691942f8521@solarray.com> Message-ID: hi Everyone, and thanks for the support. I took it apart and it is producing good sine wave up to the AC board but there is a black relay that is failing to close and it turns out that there is a light on the control board showing it is not even trying to close this relay, so that is why we are not seeing output at the terminals. I propose to fit a new control board and hope that works. This will be the second time I have been inside this inverter (since 2006) and maybe the fourth or fifth time I have replaced a board in a FX. They are easy to work on, but my experience has been they do seem to need it. cheers Hugh Scoraig Scotland > On 9 Mar 2020, at 18:20, Ray wrote: > > We had one last year with a bad relay, the customer had been charging a Tesla EV through it (pass through from the grid) and smoked the relay. It was pretty obvious, the clear relay cover was all covered on the inside with burnt relay bits and smoke coating. > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 3/9/20 12:13 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote: >> >> Hugh, >> I have one at my guest cabin doing the same thing except that the meter on the mate says I have 119 vac but nothing at the AC Out terminal. I think Kent might be right that it may be the AC output relay. It is odd though that there is no error message in your case. This inverter had been tortured by the last tenants of the cabin with bad generators. I was actually going to go up there and check it out some more as it is warm today. No heat in the cabin. >> >> John Blittersdorf >> >> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 1:00 PM Kent Osterberg > wrote: >> Hugh, >> >> I've seen these symptoms before. The problem was a failed output relay on the ac board. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> >> On 3/9/2020 9:25 AM, Hugh Piggott wrote: >>> Hi Wrenches, >>> >>> I wonder if anyone can tell me what is happening here? >>> >>> I have an Outback VFX that I used for my own home from 2006-2018. It’s a 50Hz 240V unit, but similar otherwise to any other 48V VFX. It was working well when disconnected. I needed to replace the inverter system for other reasons. >>> >>> I installed this for a neighbour recently on his 48V system, and it apparently worked when I left the building. >>> >>> Now it’s not working. When “off” it shows a warning for temperatures sensor - fair enough I did not install one. Maybe when it gets connected to a generator it will be found a sensor. This is the only error or fault with a yes. >>> >>> When “on” it makes a reassuring buzz and both lights come up green and there is no error or warning in the Mate. Just one problem - no output. >>> >>> Another weird thing. I go to the status menu and check meters STATUS/FX/METER output voltage and it says “4V”. So it knows that it is not working but it appears to have no qualms or misgivings about this state of affairs. NO error, no warning, two green lights. >>> >>> I tried rebooting with the battery fuse. I tried resetting to factory defaults. No joy. >>> >>> I suppose I will take it to pieces and try to figure out a hardware failure but I wonder if anyone has seen this and can give me a clue? >>> >>> cheers >>> Hugh >>> >>> >>> Hugh Piggott >>> Scoraig Wind Electric >>> Dundonnell >>> Ross shire >>> IV23 2RE, UK >>> +44 77 1315 7600 >>> hugh at scoraigwind.co.uk >>> www.scoraigwind.co.uk >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at gosolar.co.nz Mon Mar 16 04:27:10 2020 From: john at gosolar.co.nz (John) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 21:27:10 +1300 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surrette/Rolls contact info? In-Reply-To: <1584072731702.6ae29f3a48a064b1@re-wrenches.org> References: <40434B19-4A42-427D-A85D-964DC58D11C5@swnl.net> <5e6a917d.1c69fb81.62bb1.0527@mx.google.com> <1584072731702.6ae29f3a48a064b1@re-wrenches.org> Message-ID: <001b01d5fb6c$b3351d60$199f5820$@gosolar.co.nz> Hi Michael, O.K. - I give up. I've tried three different passwords to log in, and none of them work. I did keep track of them starting in 2004, but the current one escapes me. Because I would like to change my bio, can I please have a new one - and all the old ones will be done away with. Sorry, but thanks - John Veix ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++ -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Michael Welch Sent: Friday, 13 March 2020 5:01 pm To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette/Rolls contact info? Hi gang. This is a good time to remind Wrenches that each of you has a biography page, as do the manufacturer reps on the list. So asking the list is not needed, and considered off-topic. The link to the bios is at the bottom of every Wrench List message, including this one. This also would be a good time to remind Wrenches to check their own bios to make sure they are current. Someone wrote at 12:46 PM 3/12/2020: >I'm looking for contact info for Steve Higgins of Surrette / Rolls Battery. > >Thank you, _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Mar 16 13:05:45 2020 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 10:05:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Brown-Out Prone Opportunity Charging In-Reply-To: References: <335b9d21-fe60-463a-34b8-255f4fd79530@villagepowerdesign.com> <7AD19D08-D0DC-4BAE-AAEC-38202CA63F49@swnl.net> Message-ID: Did you mean to say LFP? It depends on who made the battery. LFP batteries can be charged using CC/CV. Some, like the Elite PS/GBS battery packages can accept a simple CV power supply of 3.65 Vpc. The inverter is always on and isolated from the grid so it’s not affected by poor power quality unless you allow ripple or spikes to the battery system. That should be protected at the AC input of your charger/PS and PS filtering. What is the daily power consumption? If the battery and PS are sized to meet your loads, then it won’t matter when the grid is available. Grid Outages longer than you design for can be backed up with a generator. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Mar 13, 2020, at 6:09 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Thanks All, Mick and Tump - I'll look into the Victron - good suggestion - Thanks! Chris - I'm not sure a transformer will buffer the spikes and frequency but just pass them on - others? Larry and Jerry - If I were to go with the separate battery charger/PS approach - what specific 48 V LFeP battery Charger/PS might you recommend and how to protect it with what sort of surge and LV equipment? If either the inverter or PS/Charger is protected within too narrow a range then it might defeat the purpose - wanting to maximize pulling in as much opportunity charging as we can get. Seems to me like there might be a market for a highly tolerant battery charger between 160-260 VAC and frequency tolerant as well - something bulletproof we could put on these systems - perhaps that is the Victron - but I'd rather have it in a separate beefy battery charger then risk the inverters - especially if we are going to buffer the customer from the grid with the battery/inverter system. For instance we have a hospital that can only use the available grid for the office but they can't risk it for their hospital equipment. But If I could pull the grid into batteries safely and always power their loads with the high reliability battery/inverter system - now we are talking. So specific 48V battery chargers that can take it? Any equipment out there anyone is aware of? Thanks! Jeff Tump wrote on 3/13/20 2:47 PM: > Check out the Victron line of Chargers as well as the inverter charger units. AC in 187-265 45-65 Hz. for the inverters 230V/50Hz, inverter. > Please feel free to e mail me 4 additional info. Great BT support / internet access. well thought out product. >> On Mar 13, 2020, at 5:11 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: >> >> Jeff >> I have been there too in most cases we have programmed in the VAC max/mins with tighter setting so as the grid starts to go we just disconnect. I did just do a charger instead of the inverter because the grid was generally low on frequency but the charger just charged and l see it on optics when that happens >> Jerry >> >> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 12:03 PM Jeff Clearwater > wrote: >> Good Day Esteemed Wrenchers, >> >> So we are doing more work in developing countries where the grid is super unreliable but on for some hours almost daily. >> >> So let's say we have a grid that's on 9 AM - 11 AM and 4 PM - 7 PM each day but often browns-out during those hours and comes on and off during those hours. 230 VAC voltage can drop to 160-180 periodically or go above 260 in spikes. >> >> The present practice in many of these situations is for battery based system designers/installers is to set up an off-grid system in parallel to the mains but not relying on them - so the grid AC IN is not connected. They just install a transfer switch and manually switch or they wire a critical loads panel to the solar. >> >> This avoids constant switching and nuisance shut-downs from the battery inverter and protects it from burning out trying to handle the grid. >> >> MY QUESTION: >> >> I'm wondering what we can do to use the grid when it is up for opportunity charging of the batteries while at the same time not subjecting our nice new battery inverters to constant brown-out tripping and possibly long term damage. >> >> So question #1 - Is anyone using existing battery inverters but succesfully navigating such a grid variablity settings such that you are able to take advantage of the grid even if browning out often? >> >> or question #2 - Can we add some sort of high Voltage and Frequency tolerant battery charger to the system - keep the battery inverter/charger off grid - but charge the batteries from something able to handle the wonky grid without constantly nuisance charging or burning itself up? >> >> Your thoughts and wisdom I await!!! >> >> Best, >> >> Jeff >> >> >> -- >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> linkedin >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> cell - 413-559-9763 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 1380 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Mar 16 13:46:26 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 13:46:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunPower Monitoring Setup Message-ID: Is there any way for a consumer (non-SunPower Dealer) with a PV Supervisor 6 to set up a monitoring account? I have a client with SunPower AC modules (Enphase IQ7X version) purchased "elsewhere" that just needs monitoring set up. If I can't get access to the dealer portal or have one of you esteemed Wrenches with SunPower credentials help me out, it seems like my only option would be to install an IQ Envoy and do monitoring through Enlighten. That's an expensive option since the client already has paid for a PV Supervisor from SunPower. I guess the other question is whether Enphase has the IQ7X serial numbers on lockdown or if the Envoy will detect the microinverters and work as expected. I would rather go the SunPower monitoring route. I have all of the details ready to go and the system has been tested on the local interface with everything working perfectly. Any advice or direct help (contact me off-list) would be greatly appreciated. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Mar 16 13:50:20 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 10:50:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Brown-Out Prone Opportunity Charging In-Reply-To: References: <335b9d21-fe60-463a-34b8-255f4fd79530@villagepowerdesign.com> <7AD19D08-D0DC-4BAE-AAEC-38202CA63F49@swnl.net> Message-ID: <98b3981d-2ebe-08d4-9a45-d0fd393f0750@villagepowerdesign.com> Yes LFP - the grid is only on a few hours in the morning and a few hours in the evening and even that is not reliable.  Diesel is to be avoided as much as possible as diesel prices are volatile now that Venezuela is closing the tap and local maintenance is iffy.    So I'm looking at buffering with as many batteries as financing will allow.  So PS and battery need to be sized above power consumption.  It's a small hospital so consumption varies quite a bit daily - the more they have the more they use and can serve. Solar roof space is limited to about 16 KW - so grid opportunity charging could make all the difference for them. We are in the 24 KW (5 sec) peak, 8 KW typical, 60-100 KWHrs/day range.  Doing more data logging to pin that down more.  Thanks for your input! Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote on 3/16/20 10:05 AM: > Did you mean to say LFP? It depends on who made the battery. LFP > batteries can be charged using CC/CV. Some, like the Elite PS/GBS > battery packages can accept a simple CV power supply of 3.65 Vpc. > > The inverter is always on and isolated from the grid so it’s not > affected by poor power quality unless you allow ripple or spikes to > the battery system. That should be protected at the AC input of your > charger/PS and PS filtering. > > What is the daily power consumption? If the battery and PS are sized > to meet your loads, then it won’t matter when the grid is available. > Grid Outages longer than you design for can be backed up with a > generator. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > On Mar 13, 2020, at 6:09 PM, Jeff Clearwater > > > wrote: > > Thanks All, > > Mick and Tump - I'll look into the Victron - good suggestion - Thanks! > > Chris - I'm not sure a transformer will buffer the spikes and > frequency but just pass them on - others? > > Larry and Jerry - If I were to go with the separate battery charger/PS > approach - what specific  48 V  LFeP battery Charger/PS might you > recommend and how to protect it with what sort of surge and LV > equipment?  If either the inverter or PS/Charger is protected within > too narrow a range then it might defeat the purpose - wanting to > maximize pulling in as much opportunity charging as we can get. > > Seems to me like there might be a market for a highly tolerant battery > charger between 160-260 VAC and frequency tolerant as well - something > bulletproof we could put on these systems - perhaps that is the > Victron - but I'd rather have it in a separate beefy battery charger > then risk the inverters - especially if we are going to buffer the > customer from the grid with the battery/inverter system. > > For instance we have a hospital that can only use the available grid > for the office but they can't risk it for their hospital equipment.  > But If I could pull the grid into batteries safely and always power > their loads with the high reliability battery/inverter system - now we > are talking. > > So specific 48V battery chargers that can take it? Any equipment out > there anyone is aware of? > > Thanks! > > Jeff > > Tump wrote on 3/13/20 2:47 PM: >> Check out the Victron line of Chargers as well as the inverter >> charger units. AC in 187-265 45-65 Hz. for the inverters 230V/50Hz, >> inverter. >> Please feel free to e mail me 4 additional info. Great BT support / >> internet access. well thought out product. >>> On Mar 13, 2020, at 5:11 PM, Jerry Shafer >> > wrote: >>> >>> Jeff >>> I have been there too in most cases we have programmed in the VAC >>> max/mins with tighter setting so as the grid starts to go we just >>> disconnect. I did just do a charger instead of the inverter because >>> the grid was generally low on frequency but the charger just charged >>> and l see it on optics when that happens >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 12:03 PM Jeff Clearwater >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> Good Day Esteemed Wrenchers, >>> >>> So we are doing more work in developing countries where the grid >>> is super unreliable but on for some hours almost daily. >>> >>> So let's say we have a grid that's on 9 AM - 11 AM and 4 PM - 7 >>> PM each day but often browns-out during those hours and comes on >>> and off during those hours. 230 VAC voltage can drop to 160-180 >>> periodically or go above 260 in spikes. >>> >>> The present practice in many of these situations is for battery >>> based system designers/installers is to set up an off-grid >>> system in parallel to the mains but not relying on them - so the >>> grid AC IN is not connected.  They just install a transfer >>> switch and manually switch or they wire a critical loads panel >>> to the solar. >>> >>> This avoids constant switching and nuisance shut-downs from the >>> battery inverter and protects it from burning out trying to >>> handle the grid. >>> >>> MY QUESTION: >>> >>> I'm wondering what we can do to use the grid when it is up for >>> opportunity charging of the batteries while at the same time not >>> subjecting our nice new battery inverters to constant brown-out >>> tripping and possibly long term damage. >>> >>> So question #1 - Is anyone using existing battery inverters but >>> succesfully navigating such a grid variablity settings such that >>> you are able to take advantage of the grid even if browning out >>> often? >>> >>> or question #2 - Can we add some sort of high Voltage and >>> Frequency tolerant battery charger to the system - keep the >>> battery inverter/charger off grid - but charge the batteries >>> from something able to handle the wonky grid without constantly >>> nuisance charging or burning itself up? >>> >>> Your thoughts and wisdom I await!!! >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> Jeff Clearwater >>> Village Power Design >>> linkedin >>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From David.Opalinsky at sunpower.com Mon Mar 16 14:22:46 2020 From: David.Opalinsky at sunpower.com (Isaac Opalinsky) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 18:22:46 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [EXT] SunPower Monitoring Setup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, Please contact me offline, and we can help you out. Best Regards, Isaac Opalinsky | Senior Manager, Training & Field Enablement office 443-569-3476 | mobile 443-277-6286 | isaac.opalinsky at sunpower.com [sp_2014_logo_black_orange_CMYK-01] From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Monday, March 16, 2020 1:46 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [EXT] [RE-wrenches] SunPower Monitoring Setup External Email - Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or downloading attachments. ________________________________ Is there any way for a consumer (non-SunPower Dealer) with a PV Supervisor 6 to set up a monitoring account? I have a client with SunPower AC modules (Enphase IQ7X version) purchased "elsewhere" that just needs monitoring set up. If I can't get access to the dealer portal or have one of you esteemed Wrenches with SunPower credentials help me out, it seems like my only option would be to install an IQ Envoy and do monitoring through Enlighten. That's an expensive option since the client already has paid for a PV Supervisor from SunPower. I guess the other question is whether Enphase has the IQ7X serial numbers on lockdown or if the Envoy will detect the microinverters and work as expected. I would rather go the SunPower monitoring route. I have all of the details ready to go and the system has been tested on the local interface with everything working perfectly. Any advice or direct help (contact me off-list) would be greatly appreciated. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group [https://mailtrack.io/trace/mail/555f357b57ac733356f43aa17e84b9d0f510c6db.png?u=1613865] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 5843 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Mar 16 15:08:59 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 12:08:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics systems ghost reprogramming Message-ID: <8689713d4d0d8e7db9653f18409b520b@mail.gmail.com> Colleagues: Over time we have seen our Outback Optics systems reprogramming themselves. The latest manifestation is seeing the AGS change from Auto to Off. I would suggest if you have Optics systems you might log in and check this. Damage can be done to batteries and your credibility if a generator auto-start is expected and does not occur. I would be interested in hearing if any of you have experienced any “ghost” reprogramming of any Outback systems. Thanks, William Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 16:07:49 2020 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 13:07:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics systems ghost reprogramming In-Reply-To: <8689713d4d0d8e7db9653f18409b520b@mail.gmail.com> References: <8689713d4d0d8e7db9653f18409b520b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <28401C85-81E8-4718-AC7B-68EE46E05B85@gmail.com> Yes, Yesterday. Changed out a new control board in a Radian and updated Mate3S firmware for a client last week. Left with AGS set to Auto. I always take a picture of the display after forgetting once or twice. Client calls me yesterday morning, he’s looking at his system remotely, “hey, generator did not come on for Sunday morning exercise!” Sure enough, Optics shows AGS set to Off. > On Mar 16, 2020, at 12:08 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Colleagues: > > Over time we have seen our Outback Optics systems reprogramming themselves. The latest manifestation is seeing the AGS change from Auto to Off. I would suggest if you have Optics systems you might log in and check this. Damage can be done to batteries and your credibility if a generator auto-start is expected and does not occur. > > I would be interested in hearing if any of you have experienced any “ghost” reprogramming of any Outback systems. > > Thanks, > > William Miller > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SmallGif.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 18:37:37 2020 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 16:37:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics systems ghost reprogramming In-Reply-To: <8689713d4d0d8e7db9653f18409b520b@mail.gmail.com> References: <8689713d4d0d8e7db9653f18409b520b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, Michael; I have never seen spontaneous reprogramming of the AGS, but it sure does give me something to watch out for on the Optics systems I've installed, thanks for that! What I did see (last month) was an Optics system (no AGS) shut down the web gateway, saying the firmware in the charge controllers (old MX60s) and the Flexnet DC need to be updated, but all are too old, the firmware can't be updated as far as I know. It also lost the Port #s for the 2 MX60s and FlexNet DC and needs them re-entered. Oddly, the battery SOC is the only data showing in the Optics Portal, but it's saying 67% SOC, which (I hope!) is incorrect, as the site has had full sun, hardly a cloud in the sky, for over 3 days now, and the system is designed to charge from 50% SOC to full on one sunny day. The Mate 3S firmware isn't flagged for an update, but there is a newer version out. I plan to update the Mate 3S, re-enter the Port assignments and hope that fixes the problem. Because the system is 200 miles away and I have no way now of knowing if it's even charging right now. Will be watching this thread closely!. Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP PV Associate NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 1:48 PM William Miller wrote: > Colleagues: > > > > Over time we have seen our Outback Optics systems reprogramming > themselves. The latest manifestation is seeing the AGS change from Auto to > Off. I would suggest if you have Optics systems you might log in and check > this. Damage can be done to batteries and your credibility if a generator > auto-start is expected and does not occur. > > > > I would be interested in hearing if any of you have experienced any > “ghost” reprogramming of any Outback systems. > > > > Thanks, > > > > William Miller > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Tue Mar 17 09:51:57 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 09:51:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics systems ghost reprogramming In-Reply-To: References: <8689713d4d0d8e7db9653f18409b520b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <134D935A-5466-476D-8277-1CEBD28D7572@swnl.net> Please be aware that the files that are stored in the Mates are not able to be overwritten, and this leads to corrupted data among other mystery issues. Contact Kris Stone, a former OB employee, he has the ability to erase the old files. I no longer travel w/o updated M3s and the firmware to up date. IF I have an issue, I will copy settings in the older Mate and leave my new one in place until I get it addressed by Kris. FYI OB just closed down 1 their offices and moved (those who still had jobs) to I believe Bellingham. Lonus? Kris Stone, 425-233-0731 stkrizzi at yahoo.com > On Mar 16, 2020, at 6:37 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > William, Michael; I have never seen spontaneous reprogramming of the AGS, but it sure does give me something to watch out for on the Optics systems I've installed, thanks for that! > > What I did see (last month) was an Optics system (no AGS) shut down the web gateway, saying the firmware in the charge controllers (old MX60s) and the Flexnet DC need to be updated, but all are too old, the firmware can't be updated as far as I know. It also lost the Port #s for the 2 MX60s and FlexNet DC and needs them re-entered. > > Oddly, the battery SOC is the only data showing in the Optics Portal, but it's saying 67% SOC, which (I hope!) is incorrect, as the site has had full sun, hardly a cloud in the sky, for over 3 days now, and the system is designed to charge from 50% SOC to full on one sunny day. > > The Mate 3S firmware isn't flagged for an update, but there is a newer version out. I plan to update the Mate 3S, re-enter the Port assignments and hope that fixes the problem. Because the system is 200 miles away and I have no way now of knowing if it's even charging right now. > > Will be watching this thread closely!. > > Dan Fink > Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting > NABCEP PV Associate > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 1:48 PM William Miller > wrote: > Colleagues: > > > Over time we have seen our Outback Optics systems reprogramming themselves. The latest manifestation is seeing the AGS change from Auto to Off. I would suggest if you have Optics systems you might log in and check this. Damage can be done to batteries and your credibility if a generator auto-start is expected and does not occur. > > > I would be interested in hearing if any of you have experienced any “ghost” reprogramming of any Outback systems. > > > Thanks, > > > William Miller > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Mar 17 14:45:13 2020 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 11:45:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics systems ghost reprogramming In-Reply-To: References: <8689713d4d0d8e7db9653f18409b520b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <497a3c9f-fa66-1eee-be68-0944be4f09d4@psln.com> Dan,             I've occasionally had a similar issue with a partial display failure of some of the info normally found on the home page on a Mate3.  So far I've been able to "solve" this problem by doing a complete system (this one was 4, OBVFXR's) shutdown and re-fire-up in the proper sequence. Bill Feather River Solar Electric On 3/16/2020 3:37 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > William, Michael; I have never seen spontaneous reprogramming of the > AGS, but it sure does give me something to watch out for on the Optics > systems I've installed, thanks for that! > > What I did see (last month) was an Optics system (no AGS) shut down > the web gateway, saying the firmware in the charge controllers (old > MX60s) and the Flexnet DC need to be updated, but all are too old, the > firmware can't be updated as far as I know. It also lost the Port #s > for the 2 MX60s and FlexNet DC and needs them re-entered. > > Oddly, the battery SOC is the only data showing in the Optics Portal, > but it's saying 67% SOC, which (I hope!) is incorrect, as the site has > had full sun, hardly a cloud in the sky, for over 3 days now, and the > system is designed to charge from 50% SOC to full on one sunny day. > > The Mate 3S firmware isn't flagged for an update, but there is a newer > version out. I plan to update the Mate 3S, re-enter the Port > assignments and hope that fixes the problem. Because the system is 200 > miles away and I have no way now of knowing if it's even charging > right now. > > Will be watching this thread closely!. > > Dan Fink > Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting > NABCEP PV Associate > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers > d anbob88 at gmail.com > > 970-672-4342 > > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 1:48 PM William Miller > > wrote: > > Colleagues: > > Over time we have seen our Outback Optics systems reprogramming > themselves.  The latest manifestation is seeing the AGS change > from Auto to Off.  I would suggest if you have Optics systems you > might log in and check this.  Damage can be done to batteries and > your credibility if a generator auto-start is expected and does > not occur. > > I would be interested in hearing if any of you have experienced > any “ghost” reprogramming of any Outback systems. > > Thanks, > > William Miller > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Tue Mar 17 15:18:03 2020 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 19:18:03 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics systems ghost reprogramming In-Reply-To: <134D935A-5466-476D-8277-1CEBD28D7572@swnl.net> References: <8689713d4d0d8e7db9653f18409b520b@mail.gmail.com> <134D935A-5466-476D-8277-1CEBD28D7572@swnl.net> Message-ID: There are 2 concerns voiced below I will address each. 1 As to the location of OutBack We are pleased to inform you that OutBack Power is moving our headquarters from Arlington, WA to Phoenix, AZ. This move, to be completed by July 1, 2020, will bring us physically closer to the majority of our domestic customers. Additionally, Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport also allows us easier access to our customers around the globe. Our new Phoenix location will also help us recruit top talent to our already impressive team and in designing and testing new renewable energy products such as our lithium-ion battery which we displayed at Intersolar North America in February and expect to be available in Fall 2020. In addition to our headquarters, already located in our Phoenix office are our customer training center, technical support personnel, and our warranty service center. 2 Concerning corrupted files on the Mate 3(s) To clear the internal data logs on the Mate3 or the Mate3S Press Lock enter the password of 141 Setting Enter System Enter Under System Configuration Scroll down to Clear Internal Data Log Enter (Press Center Button) Press Yes This will clear the internal data logs. This does not effect the CSV files or any information being sent to the SD card. It will clear out the Graph files as displayed on the Mate by the charge controllers, the FNDC and the inverters. I hope this helps. Take Care All From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Tump Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2020 6:52 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics systems ghost reprogramming Please be aware that the files that are stored in the Mates are not able to be overwritten, and this leads to corrupted data among other mystery issues. Contact Kris Stone, a former OB employee, he has the ability to erase the old files. I no longer travel w/o updated M3s and the firmware to up date. IF I have an issue, I will copy settings in the older Mate and leave my new one in place until I get it addressed by Kris. FYI OB just closed down 1 their offices and moved (those who still had jobs) to I believe Bellingham. Lonus? Kris Stone, 425-233-0731 stkrizzi at yahoo.com On Mar 16, 2020, at 6:37 PM, Dan Fink > wrote: William, Michael; I have never seen spontaneous reprogramming of the AGS, but it sure does give me something to watch out for on the Optics systems I've installed, thanks for that! What I did see (last month) was an Optics system (no AGS) shut down the web gateway, saying the firmware in the charge controllers (old MX60s) and the Flexnet DC need to be updated, but all are too old, the firmware can't be updated as far as I know. It also lost the Port #s for the 2 MX60s and FlexNet DC and needs them re-entered. Oddly, the battery SOC is the only data showing in the Optics Portal, but it's saying 67% SOC, which (I hope!) is incorrect, as the site has had full sun, hardly a cloud in the sky, for over 3 days now, and the system is designed to charge from 50% SOC to full on one sunny day. The Mate 3S firmware isn't flagged for an update, but there is a newer version out. I plan to update the Mate 3S, re-enter the Port assignments and hope that fixes the problem. Because the system is 200 miles away and I have no way now of knowing if it's even charging right now. Will be watching this thread closely!. Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP PV Associate NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers danbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 1:48 PM William Miller > wrote: Colleagues: Over time we have seen our Outback Optics systems reprogramming themselves. The latest manifestation is seeing the AGS change from Auto to Off. I would suggest if you have Optics systems you might log in and check this. Damage can be done to batteries and your credibility if a generator auto-start is expected and does not occur. I would be interested in hearing if any of you have experienced any “ghost” reprogramming of any Outback systems. Thanks, William Miller _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Tue Mar 17 18:41:40 2020 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 18:41:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics systems ghost reprogramming In-Reply-To: <134D935A-5466-476D-8277-1CEBD28D7572@swnl.net> References: <8689713d4d0d8e7db9653f18409b520b@mail.gmail.com> <134D935A-5466-476D-8277-1CEBD28D7572@swnl.net> Message-ID: To all, Lately it seems that I'm taking over more and more off grid projects that have become orphaned by the many possers in our off grid world. Believe me when I say I'm happy to do it. In regards to Optics I've created my own account so that I can view all my clients. The problem I'm running into is that when I try to create a new profile by entering the clients Mate3 MAC address I find that the address is already registered. The clients don't know anything and the installers have disappeared. In some cases the clients do have a login and password. So my question to you is what is the work around here? Is there a way to locally clear the info at the Mate3 or is this something that has to be done at OB HQ? If so, what kind of documentation would be required from the client to provide to OB to allow someone else to "take over" administrative rights of the system? I did reach out to OB on the issue but have received no response as of yet. I will say, when it works it is awesome. Christopher On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 9:50 AM Tump wrote: > Please be aware that the files that are stored in the Mates are not able > to be overwritten, and this leads to corrupted data among other mystery > issues. Contact Kris Stone, a former OB employee, he has the ability to > erase the old files. I no longer travel w/o updated M3s and the firmware to > up date. IF I have an issue, I will copy settings in the older Mate and > leave my new one in place until I get it addressed by Kris. > FYI OB just closed down 1 their offices and moved (those who still had > jobs) to I believe Bellingham. Lonus? > Kris Stone, 425-233-0731 stkrizzi at yahoo.com > > On Mar 16, 2020, at 6:37 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > William, Michael; I have never seen spontaneous reprogramming of the AGS, > but it sure does give me something to watch out for on the Optics systems > I've installed, thanks for that! > > What I did see (last month) was an Optics system (no AGS) shut down the > web gateway, saying the firmware in the charge controllers (old MX60s) and > the Flexnet DC need to be updated, but all are too old, the firmware can't > be updated as far as I know. It also lost the Port #s for the 2 MX60s and > FlexNet DC and needs them re-entered. > > Oddly, the battery SOC is the only data showing in the Optics Portal, but > it's saying 67% SOC, which (I hope!) is incorrect, as the site has had full > sun, hardly a cloud in the sky, for over 3 days now, and the system is > designed to charge from 50% SOC to full on one sunny day. > > The Mate 3S firmware isn't flagged for an update, but there is a newer > version out. I plan to update the Mate 3S, re-enter the Port assignments > and hope that fixes the problem. Because the system is 200 miles away and I > have no way now of knowing if it's even charging right now. > > Will be watching this thread closely!. > > Dan Fink > Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting > NABCEP PV Associate > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 1:48 PM William Miller > wrote: > >> Colleagues: >> >> >> Over time we have seen our Outback Optics systems reprogramming >> themselves. The latest manifestation is seeing the AGS change from Auto to >> Off. I would suggest if you have Optics systems you might log in and check >> this. Damage can be done to batteries and your credibility if a generator >> auto-start is expected and does not occur. >> >> >> I would be interested in hearing if any of you have experienced any >> “ghost” reprogramming of any Outback systems. >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> William Miller >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Mar 18 11:11:09 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 08:11:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics systems ghost reprogramming In-Reply-To: References: <8689713d4d0d8e7db9653f18409b520b@mail.gmail.com> <134D935A-5466-476D-8277-1CEBD28D7572@swnl.net> Message-ID: This is a good question and I have a few outback systems that I need to get on optics that were installed by someone else. My experience in the last 10 years shifted me to Schneider. I would say for Outback to help you with this, you would need a serial number and mac ID. Is there anything similar to how Schneider does it in my screen? It is nice as it saves the previous data but resets the insight2 similar to optics. DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 17 Mar 2020 18:41:40 -0400, Chris Schaefer wrote: To all, Lately it seems that I'm taking over more and more off grid projects that have become orphaned by the many possers in our off grid world. Believe me when I say I'm happy to do it. In regards to Optics I've created my own account so that I can view all my clients. The problem I'm running into is that when I try to create a new profile by entering the clients Mate3 MAC address I find that the address is already registered. The clients don't know anything and the installers have disappeared. In some cases the clients do have a login and password. So my question to you is what is the work around here? Is there a way to locally clear the info at the Mate3 or is this something that has to be done at OB HQ? If so, what kind of documentation would be required from the client to provide to OB to allow someone else to "take over" administrative rights of the system? I did reach out to OB on the issue but have received no response as of yet. I will say, when it works it is awesome. Christopher On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 9:50 AM Tump wrote: Please be aware that the files that are stored in the Mates are not able to be overwritten, and this leads to corrupted data among other mystery issues. Contact Kris Stone, a former OB employee, he has the ability to erase the old files. I no longer travel w/o updated M3s and the firmware to up date. IF I have an issue, I will copy settings in the older Mate and leave my new one in place until I get it addressed by Kris. FYI OB just closed down 1 their offices and moved (those who still had jobs) to I believe Bellingham. Lonus? Kris Stone, 425-233-0731 stkrizzi at yahoo.com [4] On Mar 16, 2020, at 6:37 PM, Dan Fink wrote: William, Michael; I have never seen spontaneous reprogramming of the AGS, but it sure does give me something to watch out for on the Optics systems I've installed, thanks for that! What I did see (last month) was an Optics system (no AGS) shut down the web gateway, saying the firmware in the charge controllers (old MX60s) and the Flexnet DC need to be updated, but all are too old, the firmware can't be updated as far as I know. It also lost the Port #s for the 2 MX60s and FlexNet DC and needs them re-entered. Oddly, the battery SOC is the only data showing in the Optics Portal, but it's saying 67% SOC, which (I hope!) is incorrect, as the site has had full sun, hardly a cloud in the sky, for over 3 days now, and the system is designed to charge from 50% SOC to full on one sunny day. The Mate 3S firmware isn't flagged for an update, but there is a newer version out. I plan to update the Mate 3S, re-enter the Port assignments and hope that fixes the problem. Because the system is 200 miles away and I have no way now of knowing if it's even charging right now. Will be watching this thread closely!. Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP PV Associate NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor(tm) for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d [6]anbob88 at gmail.com [7] 970-672-4342 On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 1:48 PM William Miller wrote: Colleagues: Over time we have seen our Outback Optics systems reprogramming themselves. The latest manifestation is seeing the AGS change from Auto to Off. I would suggest if you have Optics systems you might log in and check this. Damage can be done to batteries and your credibility if a generator auto-start is expected and does not occur. I would be interested in hearing if any of you have experienced any "ghost" reprogramming of any Outback systems. Thanks, William Miller _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [11] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [16] List rules border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"> TUMP at SWNL.NET WWW.SWNL.NET Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ _ SERVING MID COAST MAINE "> _ 207-832-7574 CL. 610-517-8401 _ _ __BLAIR "TUMP" MAY_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ __ NABCEP "CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER"_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ TRACE XANTREX "CERTIFIED" DEALER / INSTALLER"_ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [19] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [21] List rules color: #1f497d;">Chris Schaefer's [24] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 _www.solarandwindfx.com [25] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [26]_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:tump at swnl.net [4] mailto:stkrizzi at yahoo.com [5] mailto:danbob88 at gmail.com [6] mailto:dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com [7] mailto:anbob88 at gmail.com [8] mailto:william at millersolar.com [9] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [12] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ [14] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [17] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [18] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [19] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [20] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [21] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [22] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [23] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [24] http://webmail.sti.net/http:www.solarandwindfx.com [25] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [26] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: reset.PNG Type: image/png Size: 93577 bytes Desc: not available URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 12:01:34 2020 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 12:01:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics systems ghost reprogramming In-Reply-To: References: <8689713d4d0d8e7db9653f18409b520b@mail.gmail.com> <134D935A-5466-476D-8277-1CEBD28D7572@swnl.net> Message-ID: Chris, If the customer has the username and password, they can log in and add your email address as a new user. I find that on all the profiles I’m monitoring, there are inconsistencies in finding the screen to add authorized users. It may be because some profiles were initiated by me (preferred method) and I added the customer with full control or limited control or the others were initiated by the customer with me added with full control and as administrator or not. Tech support should be able to fix it if you are prepared to do other desk work while waiting for a half hour or more in the Queue. John Blittersdorf On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 6:41 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: > To all, > > Lately it seems that I'm taking over more and more off grid projects that > have become orphaned by the many possers in our off grid world. Believe me > when I say I'm happy to do it. In regards to Optics I've created my own > account so that I can view all my clients. The problem I'm running into is > that when I try to create a new profile by entering the clients Mate3 MAC > address I find that the address is already registered. The clients don't > know anything and the installers have disappeared. In some cases the > clients do have a login and password. So my question to you is what is the > work around here? Is there a way to locally clear the info at the Mate3 or > is this something that has to be done at OB HQ? If so, what kind of > documentation would be required from the client to provide to OB to allow > someone else to "take over" administrative rights of the system? I did > reach out to OB on the issue but have received no response as of yet. I > will say, when it works it is awesome. > > Christopher > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 9:50 AM Tump wrote: > >> Please be aware that the files that are stored in the Mates are not able >> to be overwritten, and this leads to corrupted data among other mystery >> issues. Contact Kris Stone, a former OB employee, he has the ability to >> erase the old files. I no longer travel w/o updated M3s and the firmware to >> up date. IF I have an issue, I will copy settings in the older Mate and >> leave my new one in place until I get it addressed by Kris. >> FYI OB just closed down 1 their offices and moved (those who still had >> jobs) to I believe Bellingham. Lonus? >> Kris Stone, 425-233-0731 stkrizzi at yahoo.com >> >> On Mar 16, 2020, at 6:37 PM, Dan Fink wrote: >> >> William, Michael; I have never seen spontaneous reprogramming of the AGS, >> but it sure does give me something to watch out for on the Optics systems >> I've installed, thanks for that! >> >> What I did see (last month) was an Optics system (no AGS) shut down the >> web gateway, saying the firmware in the charge controllers (old MX60s) and >> the Flexnet DC need to be updated, but all are too old, the firmware can't >> be updated as far as I know. It also lost the Port #s for the 2 MX60s and >> FlexNet DC and needs them re-entered. >> >> Oddly, the battery SOC is the only data showing in the Optics Portal, but >> it's saying 67% SOC, which (I hope!) is incorrect, as the site has had full >> sun, hardly a cloud in the sky, for over 3 days now, and the system is >> designed to charge from 50% SOC to full on one sunny day. >> >> The Mate 3S firmware isn't flagged for an update, but there is a newer >> version out. I plan to update the Mate 3S, re-enter the Port assignments >> and hope that fixes the problem. Because the system is 200 miles away and I >> have no way now of knowing if it's even charging right now. >> >> Will be watching this thread closely!. >> >> Dan Fink >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting >> NABCEP PV Associate >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers >> d anbob88 at gmail.com >> 970-672-4342 >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 1:48 PM William Miller >> wrote: >> >>> Colleagues: >>> >>> >>> Over time we have seen our Outback Optics systems reprogramming >>> themselves. The latest manifestation is seeing the AGS change from Auto to >>> Off. I would suggest if you have Optics systems you might log in and check >>> this. Damage can be done to batteries and your credibility if a generator >>> auto-start is expected and does not occur. >>> >>> >>> I would be interested in hearing if any of you have experienced any >>> “ghost” reprogramming of any Outback systems. >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* >> * 207-832-7574 Cl. >> 610-517-8401 * >> *Blair "TUMP" May* >> >> >> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* >> >> >> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road > > ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 12:53:27 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 09:53:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics systems ghost reprogramming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17D0DE96-5F2B-46D3-B330-713CED63FA71@gmail.com> Hi john, To Chris’s question. What if (all to common) the customer doesn’t have any of that data? How do you reset it? Jay > On Mar 18, 2020, at 9:01 AM, John Blittersdorf wrote: > >  > > Chris, > If the customer has the username and password, they can log in and add your email address as a new user. I find that on all the profiles I’m monitoring, there are inconsistencies in finding the screen to add authorized users. It may be because some profiles were initiated by me (preferred method) and I added the customer with full control or limited control or the others were initiated by the customer with me added with full control and as administrator or not. Tech support should be able to fix it if you are prepared to do other desk work while waiting for a half hour or more in the Queue. > > John Blittersdorf > >> On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 6:41 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: >> To all, >> >> Lately it seems that I'm taking over more and more off grid projects that have become orphaned by the many possers in our off grid world. Believe me when I say I'm happy to do it. In regards to Optics I've created my own account so that I can view all my clients. The problem I'm running into is that when I try to create a new profile by entering the clients Mate3 MAC address I find that the address is already registered. The clients don't know anything and the installers have disappeared. In some cases the clients do have a login and password. So my question to you is what is the work around here? Is there a way to locally clear the info at the Mate3 or is this something that has to be done at OB HQ? If so, what kind of documentation would be required from the client to provide to OB to allow someone else to "take over" administrative rights of the system? I did reach out to OB on the issue but have received no response as of yet. I will say, when it works it is awesome. >> >> Christopher >> >>> On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 9:50 AM Tump wrote: >>> Please be aware that the files that are stored in the Mates are not able to be overwritten, and this leads to corrupted data among other mystery issues. Contact Kris Stone, a former OB employee, he has the ability to erase the old files. I no longer travel w/o updated M3s and the firmware to up date. IF I have an issue, I will copy settings in the older Mate and leave my new one in place until I get it addressed by Kris. >>> FYI OB just closed down 1 their offices and moved (those who still had jobs) to I believe Bellingham. Lonus? >>> Kris Stone, 425-233-0731 stkrizzi at yahoo.com >>>>> On Mar 16, 2020, at 6:37 PM, Dan Fink wrote: >>>>> >>>>> William, Michael; I have never seen spontaneous reprogramming of the AGS, but it sure does give me something to watch out for on the Optics systems I've installed, thanks for that! >>>>> >>>>> What I did see (last month) was an Optics system (no AGS) shut down the web gateway, saying the firmware in the charge controllers (old MX60s) and the Flexnet DC need to be updated, but all are too old, the firmware can't be updated as far as I know. It also lost the Port #s for the 2 MX60s and FlexNet DC and needs them re-entered. >>>>> >>>>> Oddly, the battery SOC is the only data showing in the Optics Portal, but it's saying 67% SOC, which (I hope!) is incorrect, as the site has had full sun, hardly a cloud in the sky, for over 3 days now, and the system is designed to charge from 50% SOC to full on one sunny day. >>>>> >>>>> The Mate 3S firmware isn't flagged for an update, but there is a newer version out. I plan to update the Mate 3S, re-enter the Port assignments and hope that fixes the problem. Because the system is 200 miles away and I have no way now of knowing if it's even charging right now. >>>>> >>>>> Will be watching this thread closely!. >>>>> >>>>> Dan Fink >>>>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting >>>>> NABCEP PV Associate >>>>> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >>>>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >>>>> ~ PV Installation Professional >>>>> ~ Small Wind Installer >>>>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers >>>>> danbob88 at gmail.com >>>>> 970-672-4342 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 1:48 PM William Miller wrote: >>>>>> Colleagues: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Over time we have seen our Outback Optics systems reprogramming themselves. The latest manifestation is seeing the AGS change from Auto to Off. I would suggest if you have Optics systems you might log in and check this. Damage can be done to batteries and your credibility if a generator auto-start is expected and does not occur. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I would be interested in hearing if any of you have experienced any “ghost” reprogramming of any Outback systems. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> William Miller >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net >>>> Solarwinds Northernlights >>>> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >>>> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >>>> Blair "TUMP" May >>>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >>>> >>>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >> 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Wed Mar 18 14:39:26 2020 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:39:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Repair. Message-ID: Hey All, I hope this is okay, but I have a client who has a multicluster stack of 12 Sunny Island Inverters. The system is around 4.5 years old, and unfortunately, the maintenance of this system hasn't really been performed and the client has two Sunny Islands down at the moment. They are down due to loose connections on the AC Terminal Block. The terminal damage on these units is so severe, that the entire board needs to be replaced. I just got off the phone with SMA and I was informed that they won't repair these inverters... or even ship replacement boards... Has anyone ever dealt with this before? Does anyone know of anybody who can repair these inverters or are these clients stuck buying new inverters for such a minor repair? Stay Healthy Steve Higgins. ------------------------------ *Become a Certified PV Professional. Register for* *NABCEP CEC 2020* *using promo code* *20RBE* ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarguy2004 at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 15:24:10 2020 From: solarguy2004 at gmail.com (Jim Duncan) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 14:24:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Repair. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <482b5b07-8996-8c12-8e16-c5f1678ba42a@gmail.com> Several years ago I had to replace a 8 year old SI due to a simple shorted main DC disconnect. SMA sent a refurbished unit which lasted another 5 years or so. Just within the last year I replaced both with new units. The other original one circa 2007 SI was not compatible with the new ones so both were replaced. As for repairs I don't do 3rd party repairs, customers typically see the value in a new or refurbished inverter. Jim Duncan North Texas Renewable Energy [retired] On 3/18/2020 1:39 PM, Steve Higgins wrote: > Hey All, > > I hope this is okay,  but I have a client who has a multicluster stack > of 12 Sunny Island Inverters. > > The system is around 4.5 years old, and unfortunately, the maintenance > of this system hasn't really been performed and the client has two > Sunny Islands down at the moment.  They are down due to loose > connections on the AC Terminal Block. > > The terminal damage on these units is so severe, that the entire board > needs to be replaced. > > I just got off the phone with SMA and I was informed that they won't > repair these inverters... or even ship replacement boards... > > Has anyone ever dealt with this before? > > Does anyone know of anybody who can repair these inverters or are > these clients stuck buying new inverters for such a minor repair? > > > Stay Healthy > > Steve Higgins. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Become a Certified PV Professional. Register for****NABCEP CEC 2020* > *using promo code* *20RBE* > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only > for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or > privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other > use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information > is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the > sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Jim Duncan-Program Director North Texas Renewable Energy Group 817.917.0527 solarguy2004 at gmail.com Solar Acres Farm 817.917.0527 solarguy2004 at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Mar 18 16:42:35 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 13:42:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator surging Message-ID: <623dea242a08abe001d207d8b0ecdffd@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I have a 24kW Radian system that is acting up. The problem is when the generator is running, it surges. Voltage and power go up and down. We connected the generator to a load bank and there was no surging. This makes me think the problem is in the Radian system. Has anyone else experienced this? Thanks in advance for any input. William Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 20:55:47 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 17:55:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator surging In-Reply-To: <623dea242a08abe001d207d8b0ecdffd@mail.gmail.com> References: <623dea242a08abe001d207d8b0ecdffd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Adjust the generator max output in the outback down and see what happens Jerry On Wed, Mar 18, 2020, 4:04 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > I have a 24kW Radian system that is acting up. The problem is when the > generator is running, it surges. Voltage and power go up and down. We > connected the generator to a load bank and there was no surging. This > makes me think the problem is in the Radian system. > > > > Has anyone else experienced this? > > > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > > > William Miller > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 21:35:14 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 19:35:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator surging In-Reply-To: References: <623dea242a08abe001d207d8b0ecdffd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi William, Do you know what your AC input mode is? I'd try playing with this mode. If you have a generator, I'd try switching between "generator", "support". You may quickly see a difference. There is a small diode symbol that shows up on the Mate3s screen during generator charging. I don't fully understand what that means but I know that it can affect how a generator works with the Radian. Also, you may try lowering the charging current and see how the generator responds. What type of generator? Whats your AC input limits? On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 6:56 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Adjust the generator max output in the outback down and see what happens > Jerry > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2020, 4:04 PM William Miller > wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I have a 24kW Radian system that is acting up. The problem is when the >> generator is running, it surges. Voltage and power go up and down. We >> connected the generator to a load bank and there was no surging. This >> makes me think the problem is in the Radian system. >> >> >> >> Has anyone else experienced this? >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance for any input. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Mar 19 02:24:39 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 23:24:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator surging In-Reply-To: References: <623dea242a08abe001d207d8b0ecdffd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Mac: I know well what the AC input mode is. This is the project that had the excessive THD on the voltage waveform (>26%f). Here is a link to the case study. As you can see, we resolved the problem by changing the AC input mode to Backup. After recent rains started and generator run became necessary, the client started noticing flickering of lights and refrigerator operation was unreliable. We examined the E-Gauge data and could see rapid fluctuations in the generator output. At one point we saw generator power range from 19kW to 12Kw and back in about 2 seconds. We isolated the generator into a load bank and it was rock solid. We tried lots of things but when we reconnected the generator to the Radians and switched to the Radians to Generator input mode the surging stopped. Unfortunately, the Generator mode causes tons of THD, as noted in the case study. So we can’t use Generator because of THD, and we can’t use Backup (or Support or UPS) because in all these modes the generator surges. By the way, this is a newish Kohler 30RCL. This should be a rock-solid match to a 24 kW Radian system. Like I said, we tried lots of things. What stopped the surging was to open the AC input breaker to Inverter 1. It did not help to open the input to Inverters 2 or 3. I don’t have a clue as to why this is so… We tried taking Inverter 1 out of the system--moving inverter 2 up to Master and Inverter 3 to Slave 1. The generator still surged. So if anyone started to think Inverter 1 was the problem, this was not confirmed. We are certain the neutral bonding is exactly as it should be. We tripled checked this when chasing the THD problems. We also adjusted input AC from 30 to 50 (per port), no improvement. I must say Outback has been very available to us as we try to figure these problems out. I am fortunate that I am working with a senior engineer. We are both currently stumped, but we are going to consult again tomorrow and see if any other ideas come to us. Thanks everyone for the input. More soon. William Miller *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Mac Lewis *Sent:* Wednesday, March 18, 2020 6:35 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator surging Hi William, Do you know what your AC input mode is? I'd try playing with this mode. If you have a generator, I'd try switching between "generator", "support". You may quickly see a difference. There is a small diode symbol that shows up on the Mate3s screen during generator charging. I don't fully understand what that means but I know that it can affect how a generator works with the Radian. Also, you may try lowering the charging current and see how the generator responds. What type of generator? Whats your AC input limits? On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 6:56 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: Adjust the generator max output in the outback down and see what happens Jerry On Wed, Mar 18, 2020, 4:04 PM William Miller wrote: Friends: I have a 24kW Radian system that is acting up. The problem is when the generator is running, it surges. Voltage and power go up and down. We connected the generator to a load bank and there was no surging. This makes me think the problem is in the Radian system. Has anyone else experienced this? Thanks in advance for any input. William Miller _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Thu Mar 19 09:55:41 2020 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 07:55:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Seeking Magnum MP-ODE outdoor enclosure Message-ID: Hello, Mechanix~ I've just learned Magnum's rainproof box to protect a single inverter, cc & mini panel is factory discontinued. My usual wholesalers don't have any leftovers. I spotted one in Ohio but the eBay seller doesn't want to ship it. If anyone knows where I might find one of these in the rusty & dusty bin, please contact me off list. Thanks in advance, Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 10:01:00 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 08:01:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator surging In-Reply-To: References: <623dea242a08abe001d207d8b0ecdffd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Do you hear audible changes in generator rpm? I believe that generator has the RDC2 controller that you can log into with Sitetech. There is a parameter that adjusts the sensitivity of the governor (I can dig up the exact parameter later). A Kohler tech can adjust this and I'm betting it will help, or at least rule out the generator control loop. What's your altitude? On Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 1:20 AM William Miller wrote: > Mac: > > > > I know well what the AC input mode is. This is the project that had the > excessive THD on the voltage waveform (>26%f). Here is a link > > to the case study. > > > > As you can see, we resolved the problem by changing the AC input mode to > Backup. After recent rains started and generator run became necessary, the > client started noticing flickering of lights and refrigerator operation was > unreliable. We examined the E-Gauge data and could see rapid fluctuations > in the generator output. At one point we saw generator power range from > 19kW to 12Kw and back in about 2 seconds. > > > > We isolated the generator into a load bank and it was rock solid. We > tried lots of things but when we reconnected the generator to the Radians > and switched to the Radians to Generator input mode the surging stopped. > Unfortunately, the Generator mode causes tons of THD, as noted in the case > study. > > > > So we can’t use Generator because of THD, and we can’t use Backup (or > Support or UPS) because in all these modes the generator surges. > > > > By the way, this is a newish Kohler 30RCL. This should be a rock-solid > match to a 24 kW Radian system. > > > > Like I said, we tried lots of things. What stopped the surging was to > open the AC input breaker to Inverter 1. It did not help to open the input > to Inverters 2 or 3. I don’t have a clue as to why this is so… > > > > We tried taking Inverter 1 out of the system--moving inverter 2 up to > Master and Inverter 3 to Slave 1. The generator still surged. So if anyone > started to think Inverter 1 was the problem, this was not confirmed. > > > > We are certain the neutral bonding is exactly as it should be. We tripled > checked this when chasing the THD problems. We also adjusted input AC from > 30 to 50 (per port), no improvement. > > > > I must say Outback has been very available to us as we try to figure these > problems out. I am fortunate that I am working with a senior engineer. We > are both currently stumped, but we are going to consult again tomorrow and > see if any other ideas come to us. > > > > Thanks everyone for the input. More soon. > > > > William Miller > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Mac Lewis > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 18, 2020 6:35 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator surging > > > > Hi William, > > > > Do you know what your AC input mode is? > > I'd try playing with this mode. > > If you have a generator, I'd try switching between "generator", > "support". You may quickly see a difference. There is a small diode > symbol that shows up on the Mate3s screen during generator charging. I > don't fully understand what that means but I know that it can affect how a > generator works with the Radian. > > > > Also, you may try lowering the charging current and see how the generator > responds. > > > > What type of generator? Whats your AC input limits? > > > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 6:56 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > Adjust the generator max output in the outback down and see what happens > > Jerry > > > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2020, 4:04 PM William Miller > wrote: > > Friends: > > > > I have a 24kW Radian system that is acting up. The problem is when the > generator is running, it surges. Voltage and power go up and down. We > connected the generator to a load bank and there was no surging. This > makes me think the problem is in the Radian system. > > > > Has anyone else experienced this? > > > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > > > William Miller > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 11:17:27 2020 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:17:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics systems ghost reprogramming In-Reply-To: <17D0DE96-5F2B-46D3-B330-713CED63FA71@gmail.com> References: <17D0DE96-5F2B-46D3-B330-713CED63FA71@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, My guess would be that the profile and site previously set up would have to be deleted and set up again. Without your customers info, you would not be able to delete it yourself. Outback tech support has access to all the profiles and sites and would be able to find the site with some info. Typically when I have worked with them about an Optics issue, they ask for profile or site name. Without that, I’m not sure if MAC address would work for them to locate it. Maybe the customer’s email address they might have used. Possibly address of installation. I have had tech support move a site from one profile to another when I swapped out a potentially defective Mate3s only to find out that the Mate3s was not the problem. I had set it up for monitoring so I left it there and took his old one (which was almost new) and put it in another customers site to get them back on line after a severe lightning strike. The data of course was showing up under the first customers profile. Tech support was able to move it as a new system under the correct customers file. Optics still shows the old site as off line with all data intact. John Blittersdorf On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 10:34 PM Jay wrote: > Hi john, > > To Chris’s question. What if (all to common) the customer doesn’t have any > of that data? How do you reset it? > > Jay > > On Mar 18, 2020, at 9:01 AM, John Blittersdorf < > john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > >  > > > Chris, > If the customer has the username and password, they can log in and add > your email address as a new user. I find that on all the profiles I’m > monitoring, there are inconsistencies in finding the screen to add > authorized users. It may be because some profiles were initiated by me > (preferred method) and I added the customer with full control or limited > control or the others were initiated by the customer with me added with > full control and as administrator or not. Tech support should be able to > fix it if you are prepared to do other desk work while waiting for a half > hour or more in the Queue. > > John Blittersdorf > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 6:41 PM Chris Schaefer > wrote: > >> To all, >> >> Lately it seems that I'm taking over more and more off grid projects that >> have become orphaned by the many possers in our off grid world. Believe me >> when I say I'm happy to do it. In regards to Optics I've created my own >> account so that I can view all my clients. The problem I'm running into is >> that when I try to create a new profile by entering the clients Mate3 MAC >> address I find that the address is already registered. The clients don't >> know anything and the installers have disappeared. In some cases the >> clients do have a login and password. So my question to you is what is the >> work around here? Is there a way to locally clear the info at the Mate3 or >> is this something that has to be done at OB HQ? If so, what kind of >> documentation would be required from the client to provide to OB to allow >> someone else to "take over" administrative rights of the system? I did >> reach out to OB on the issue but have received no response as of yet. I >> will say, when it works it is awesome. >> >> Christopher >> >> On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 9:50 AM Tump wrote: >> >>> Please be aware that the files that are stored in the Mates are not able >>> to be overwritten, and this leads to corrupted data among other mystery >>> issues. Contact Kris Stone, a former OB employee, he has the ability to >>> erase the old files. I no longer travel w/o updated M3s and the firmware to >>> up date. IF I have an issue, I will copy settings in the older Mate and >>> leave my new one in place until I get it addressed by Kris. >>> FYI OB just closed down 1 their offices and moved (those who still had >>> jobs) to I believe Bellingham. Lonus? >>> Kris Stone, 425-233-0731 stkrizzi at yahoo.com >>> >>> On Mar 16, 2020, at 6:37 PM, Dan Fink wrote: >>> >>> William, Michael; I have never seen spontaneous reprogramming of the >>> AGS, but it sure does give me something to watch out for on the Optics >>> systems I've installed, thanks for that! >>> >>> What I did see (last month) was an Optics system (no AGS) shut down the >>> web gateway, saying the firmware in the charge controllers (old MX60s) and >>> the Flexnet DC need to be updated, but all are too old, the firmware can't >>> be updated as far as I know. It also lost the Port #s for the 2 MX60s and >>> FlexNet DC and needs them re-entered. >>> >>> Oddly, the battery SOC is the only data showing in the Optics Portal, >>> but it's saying 67% SOC, which (I hope!) is incorrect, as the site has had >>> full sun, hardly a cloud in the sky, for over 3 days now, and the system is >>> designed to charge from 50% SOC to full on one sunny day. >>> >>> The Mate 3S firmware isn't flagged for an update, but there is a newer >>> version out. I plan to update the Mate 3S, re-enter the Port assignments >>> and hope that fixes the problem. Because the system is 200 miles away and I >>> have no way now of knowing if it's even charging right now. >>> >>> Will be watching this thread closely!. >>> >>> Dan Fink >>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting >>> NABCEP PV Associate >>> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >>> ~ PV Installation Professional >>> ~ Small Wind Installer >>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers >>> d anbob88 at gmail.com >>> 970-672-4342 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 1:48 PM William Miller >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Colleagues: >>>> >>>> >>>> Over time we have seen our Outback Optics systems reprogramming >>>> themselves. The latest manifestation is seeing the AGS change from Auto to >>>> Off. I would suggest if you have Optics systems you might log in and check >>>> this. Damage can be done to batteries and your credibility if a generator >>>> auto-start is expected and does not occur. >>>> >>>> >>>> I would be interested in hearing if any of you have experienced any >>>> “ghost” reprogramming of any Outback systems. >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> >>>> William Miller >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* >>> Solarwinds Northernlights >>> * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* >>> * 207-832-7574 Cl. >>> 610-517-8401 * >>> *Blair "TUMP" May* >>> >>> >>> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * >>> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* >>> >>> >>> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** >>> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road >> >> ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Thu Mar 19 15:16:19 2020 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 19:16:19 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics systems ghost reprogramming In-Reply-To: References: <17D0DE96-5F2B-46D3-B330-713CED63FA71@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello All In regards to this situation. As an installer if you wish to have access to an new customer or an existing Optics account. The quickest and easiest method is to have the account owner invite you to view their system. They can also grant you full access. This can be accomplished by clicking on the Cog at the top right of an Optics Page if you hover over the cog System Tool will appear [cid:image001.png at 01D5FDE8.3005E3B0] Select System Tool then under the System Tool banner select Profiles [cid:image002.png at 01D5FDE8.3005E3B0] Towards the bottom of the Profiles page Select +Add a Person This is where you enter an email address and allow the desired access level. Hit send An email will be sent informing the invitee. That person will need to have an optics account to see the new system. So … in the case where optics information is not available. Perhaps the customer forgot the Optics name or for a myriad of other situations the optics site name is unknown. Then email tech support support at outbackpower.com We will need proof that you own the system. Have the Mate Mac address available and have a copy of a receipt or a driver license showing the same address as the site address. Something that proves ownership of the system. We can then delete the account and a new profile can be created. I hope this helps. Take Care From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of John Blittersdorf Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2020 8:17 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics systems ghost reprogramming Jay, My guess would be that the profile and site previously set up would have to be deleted and set up again. Without your customers info, you would not be able to delete it yourself. Outback tech support has access to all the profiles and sites and would be able to find the site with some info. Typically when I have worked with them about an Optics issue, they ask for profile or site name. Without that, I’m not sure if MAC address would work for them to locate it. Maybe the customer’s email address they might have used. Possibly address of installation. I have had tech support move a site from one profile to another when I swapped out a potentially defective Mate3s only to find out that the Mate3s was not the problem. I had set it up for monitoring so I left it there and took his old one (which was almost new) and put it in another customers site to get them back on line after a severe lightning strike. The data of course was showing up under the first customers profile. Tech support was able to move it as a new system under the correct customers file. Optics still shows the old site as off line with all data intact. John Blittersdorf On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 10:34 PM Jay > wrote: Hi john, To Chris’s question. What if (all to common) the customer doesn’t have any of that data? How do you reset it? Jay On Mar 18, 2020, at 9:01 AM, John Blittersdorf > wrote:  Chris, If the customer has the username and password, they can log in and add your email address as a new user. I find that on all the profiles I’m monitoring, there are inconsistencies in finding the screen to add authorized users. It may be because some profiles were initiated by me (preferred method) and I added the customer with full control or limited control or the others were initiated by the customer with me added with full control and as administrator or not. Tech support should be able to fix it if you are prepared to do other desk work while waiting for a half hour or more in the Queue. John Blittersdorf On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 6:41 PM Chris Schaefer > wrote: To all, Lately it seems that I'm taking over more and more off grid projects that have become orphaned by the many possers in our off grid world. Believe me when I say I'm happy to do it. In regards to Optics I've created my own account so that I can view all my clients. The problem I'm running into is that when I try to create a new profile by entering the clients Mate3 MAC address I find that the address is already registered. The clients don't know anything and the installers have disappeared. In some cases the clients do have a login and password. So my question to you is what is the work around here? Is there a way to locally clear the info at the Mate3 or is this something that has to be done at OB HQ? If so, what kind of documentation would be required from the client to provide to OB to allow someone else to "take over" administrative rights of the system? I did reach out to OB on the issue but have received no response as of yet. I will say, when it works it is awesome. Christopher On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 9:50 AM Tump > wrote: Please be aware that the files that are stored in the Mates are not able to be overwritten, and this leads to corrupted data among other mystery issues. Contact Kris Stone, a former OB employee, he has the ability to erase the old files. I no longer travel w/o updated M3s and the firmware to up date. IF I have an issue, I will copy settings in the older Mate and leave my new one in place until I get it addressed by Kris. FYI OB just closed down 1 their offices and moved (those who still had jobs) to I believe Bellingham. Lonus? Kris Stone, 425-233-0731 stkrizzi at yahoo.com On Mar 16, 2020, at 6:37 PM, Dan Fink > wrote: William, Michael; I have never seen spontaneous reprogramming of the AGS, but it sure does give me something to watch out for on the Optics systems I've installed, thanks for that! What I did see (last month) was an Optics system (no AGS) shut down the web gateway, saying the firmware in the charge controllers (old MX60s) and the Flexnet DC need to be updated, but all are too old, the firmware can't be updated as far as I know. It also lost the Port #s for the 2 MX60s and FlexNet DC and needs them re-entered. Oddly, the battery SOC is the only data showing in the Optics Portal, but it's saying 67% SOC, which (I hope!) is incorrect, as the site has had full sun, hardly a cloud in the sky, for over 3 days now, and the system is designed to charge from 50% SOC to full on one sunny day. The Mate 3S firmware isn't flagged for an update, but there is a newer version out. I plan to update the Mate 3S, re-enter the Port assignments and hope that fixes the problem. Because the system is 200 miles away and I have no way now of knowing if it's even charging right now. Will be watching this thread closely!. Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP PV Associate NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers danbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 1:48 PM William Miller > wrote: Colleagues: Over time we have seen our Outback Optics systems reprogramming themselves. The latest manifestation is seeing the AGS change from Auto to Off. I would suggest if you have Optics systems you might log in and check this. Damage can be done to batteries and your credibility if a generator auto-start is expected and does not occur. I would be interested in hearing if any of you have experienced any “ghost” reprogramming of any Outback systems. Thanks, William Miller _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s [http://www.solarandwindfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Solar-Wind-FX-Logo.png] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [http://solarandwindfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/certs.jpg] Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 36757 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 11187 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 10:53:55 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 07:53:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator surging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7EE34586-F160-44C1-9C8B-F601E4DAC31A@gmail.com> Hi William 3 questions Did this system used to work? The surging is happening even with no loads, just battery charging? Lastly, did you find a charging/ ac amp size that stopped the surging? With 30 amps it’s still charging full rate, if you set it down further does it stop? Jay Peltz Power. > On Mar 19, 2020, at 12:20 AM, William Miller wrote: > >  > Mac: > > I know well what the AC input mode is. This is the project that had the excessive THD on the voltage waveform (>26%f). Here is a link to the case study. > > As you can see, we resolved the problem by changing the AC input mode to Backup. After recent rains started and generator run became necessary, the client started noticing flickering of lights and refrigerator operation was unreliable. We examined the E-Gauge data and could see rapid fluctuations in the generator output. At one point we saw generator power range from 19kW to 12Kw and back in about 2 seconds. > > We isolated the generator into a load bank and it was rock solid. We tried lots of things but when we reconnected the generator to the Radians and switched to the Radians to Generator input mode the surging stopped. Unfortunately, the Generator mode causes tons of THD, as noted in the case study. > > So we can’t use Generator because of THD, and we can’t use Backup (or Support or UPS) because in all these modes the generator surges. > > By the way, this is a newish Kohler 30RCL. This should be a rock-solid match to a 24 kW Radian system. > > Like I said, we tried lots of things. What stopped the surging was to open the AC input breaker to Inverter 1. It did not help to open the input to Inverters 2 or 3. I don’t have a clue as to why this is so… > > We tried taking Inverter 1 out of the system--moving inverter 2 up to Master and Inverter 3 to Slave 1. The generator still surged. So if anyone started to think Inverter 1 was the problem, this was not confirmed. > > We are certain the neutral bonding is exactly as it should be. We tripled checked this when chasing the THD problems. We also adjusted input AC from 30 to 50 (per port), no improvement. > > I must say Outback has been very available to us as we try to figure these problems out. I am fortunate that I am working with a senior engineer. We are both currently stumped, but we are going to consult again tomorrow and see if any other ideas come to us. > > Thanks everyone for the input. More soon. > > William Miller > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis > Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2020 6:35 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator surging > > Hi William, > > Do you know what your AC input mode is? > I'd try playing with this mode. > If you have a generator, I'd try switching between "generator", "support". You may quickly see a difference. There is a small diode symbol that shows up on the Mate3s screen during generator charging. I don't fully understand what that means but I know that it can affect how a generator works with the Radian. > > Also, you may try lowering the charging current and see how the generator responds. > > What type of generator? Whats your AC input limits? > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 6:56 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Adjust the generator max output in the outback down and see what happens > Jerry > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2020, 4:04 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > I have a 24kW Radian system that is acting up. The problem is when the generator is running, it surges. Voltage and power go up and down. We connected the generator to a load bank and there was no surging. This makes me think the problem is in the Radian system. > > Has anyone else experienced this? > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > William Miller > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Mar 19 17:14:00 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 17:14:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator surging In-Reply-To: <7EE34586-F160-44C1-9C8B-F601E4DAC31A@gmail.com> References: <7EE34586-F160-44C1-9C8B-F601E4DAC31A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Rains came…. is the Gen shed away from the inverter/batteries/home? Water in conduit? You made sure that the generator natural was not bonded as the tend to be? To jays question; surging changes as the charge rate goes down? Have you removed the air cleaner from the gen set and run it that way, under a load? I have seen water vapor freezing in the air filter causing surging I have also seen the rubber hose from AC to engine collapse under a load then when the load goes away no more surge and under the load up surges again and so on. > On Mar 19, 2020, at 10:53 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi William > > 3 questions > > Did this system used to work? > > > The surging is happening even with no loads, just battery charging? > > Lastly, did you find a charging/ ac amp size that stopped the surging? With 30 amps it’s still charging full rate, if you set it down further does it stop? > > Jay > > Peltz Power. > > > >> On Mar 19, 2020, at 12:20 AM, William Miller > wrote: >> >>  >> Mac: >> >> I know well what the AC input mode is. This is the project that had the excessive THD on the voltage waveform (>26%f). Here is a link to the case study. >> >> As you can see, we resolved the problem by changing the AC input mode to Backup. After recent rains started and generator run became necessary, the client started noticing flickering of lights and refrigerator operation was unreliable. We examined the E-Gauge data and could see rapid fluctuations in the generator output. At one point we saw generator power range from 19kW to 12Kw and back in about 2 seconds. >> >> We isolated the generator into a load bank and it was rock solid. We tried lots of things but when we reconnected the generator to the Radians and switched to the Radians to Generator input mode the surging stopped. Unfortunately, the Generator mode causes tons of THD, as noted in the case study. >> >> So we can’t use Generator because of THD, and we can’t use Backup (or Support or UPS) because in all these modes the generator surges. >> >> By the way, this is a newish Kohler 30RCL. This should be a rock-solid match to a 24 kW Radian system. >> >> Like I said, we tried lots of things. What stopped the surging was to open the AC input breaker to Inverter 1. It did not help to open the input to Inverters 2 or 3. I don’t have a clue as to why this is so… >> >> We tried taking Inverter 1 out of the system--moving inverter 2 up to Master and Inverter 3 to Slave 1. The generator still surged. So if anyone started to think Inverter 1 was the problem, this was not confirmed. >> >> We are certain the neutral bonding is exactly as it should be. We tripled checked this when chasing the THD problems. We also adjusted input AC from 30 to 50 (per port), no improvement. >> >> I must say Outback has been very available to us as we try to figure these problems out. I am fortunate that I am working with a senior engineer. We are both currently stumped, but we are going to consult again tomorrow and see if any other ideas come to us. >> >> Thanks everyone for the input. More soon. >> >> William Miller >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis >> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2020 6:35 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator surging >> >> Hi William, >> >> Do you know what your AC input mode is? >> I'd try playing with this mode. >> If you have a generator, I'd try switching between "generator", "support". You may quickly see a difference. There is a small diode symbol that shows up on the Mate3s screen during generator charging. I don't fully understand what that means but I know that it can affect how a generator works with the Radian. >> >> Also, you may try lowering the charging current and see how the generator responds. >> >> What type of generator? Whats your AC input limits? >> >> On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 6:56 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: >> Adjust the generator max output in the outback down and see what happens >> Jerry >> >> On Wed, Mar 18, 2020, 4:04 PM William Miller > wrote: >> Friends: >> >> I have a 24kW Radian system that is acting up. The problem is when the generator is running, it surges. Voltage and power go up and down. We connected the generator to a load bank and there was no surging. This makes me think the problem is in the Radian system. >> >> Has anyone else experienced this? >> >> Thanks in advance for any input. >> >> William Miller >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Mar 19 18:01:30 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 15:01:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator surging In-Reply-To: <7EE34586-F160-44C1-9C8B-F601E4DAC31A@gmail.com> References: <7EE34586-F160-44C1-9C8B-F601E4DAC31A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0839fad3659494f4e3561c0d5c3ce4ba@mail.gmail.com> Jay: Thanks for thinking about this. Answers below. *From:* Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] *Sent:* Thursday, March 19, 2020 7:54 AM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator surging Hi William 3 questions Did this system used to work? Define work. There was no surging but the THD was so high GFIs were popping like popcorn. The surging is happening even with no loads, just battery charging? I am pretty sure it is charger loads causing the problem. Lastly, did you find a charging/ ac amp size that stopped the surging? With 30 amps it’s still charging full rate, if you set it down further does it stop? When the batteries become more fully charged, the charging current tapers but the generator still surges. Jay Peltz Power. On Mar 19, 2020, at 12:20 AM, William Miller wrote:  Mac: I know well what the AC input mode is. This is the project that had the excessive THD on the voltage waveform (>26%f). Here is a link to the case study. As you can see, we resolved the problem by changing the AC input mode to Backup. After recent rains started and generator run became necessary, the client started noticing flickering of lights and refrigerator operation was unreliable. We examined the E-Gauge data and could see rapid fluctuations in the generator output. At one point we saw generator power range from 19kW to 12Kw and back in about 2 seconds. We isolated the generator into a load bank and it was rock solid. We tried lots of things but when we reconnected the generator to the Radians and switched to the Radians to Generator input mode the surging stopped. Unfortunately, the Generator mode causes tons of THD, as noted in the case study. So we can’t use Generator because of THD, and we can’t use Backup (or Support or UPS) because in all these modes the generator surges. By the way, this is a newish Kohler 30RCL. This should be a rock-solid match to a 24 kW Radian system. Like I said, we tried lots of things. What stopped the surging was to open the AC input breaker to Inverter 1. It did not help to open the input to Inverters 2 or 3. I don’t have a clue as to why this is so… We tried taking Inverter 1 out of the system--moving inverter 2 up to Master and Inverter 3 to Slave 1. The generator still surged. So if anyone started to think Inverter 1 was the problem, this was not confirmed. We are certain the neutral bonding is exactly as it should be. We tripled checked this when chasing the THD problems. We also adjusted input AC from 30 to 50 (per port), no improvement. I must say Outback has been very available to us as we try to figure these problems out. I am fortunate that I am working with a senior engineer. We are both currently stumped, but we are going to consult again tomorrow and see if any other ideas come to us. Thanks everyone for the input. More soon. William Miller *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Mac Lewis *Sent:* Wednesday, March 18, 2020 6:35 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator surging Hi William, Do you know what your AC input mode is? I'd try playing with this mode. If you have a generator, I'd try switching between "generator", "support". You may quickly see a difference. There is a small diode symbol that shows up on the Mate3s screen during generator charging. I don't fully understand what that means but I know that it can affect how a generator works with the Radian. Also, you may try lowering the charging current and see how the generator responds. What type of generator? Whats your AC input limits? On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 6:56 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: Adjust the generator max output in the outback down and see what happens Jerry On Wed, Mar 18, 2020, 4:04 PM William Miller wrote: Friends: I have a 24kW Radian system that is acting up. The problem is when the generator is running, it surges. Voltage and power go up and down. We connected the generator to a load bank and there was no surging. This makes me think the problem is in the Radian system. Has anyone else experienced this? Thanks in advance for any input. William Miller _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 21:53:16 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 19:53:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator surging In-Reply-To: References: <7EE34586-F160-44C1-9C8B-F601E4DAC31A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi William, You and/or a Kohler tech can log into the RDC2 controller with site tech and update the controller firmware to the latest version. Then, I'd try adjusting the Engine Speed Gain Adjustment downward in increments of 5 while the Radians are fully connected and charging. This can help smooth out overcompensation. It will also make it slower to respond to load. Hopefully this helps On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 3:12 PM Tump wrote: > Rains came…. is the Gen shed away from the inverter/batteries/home? Water > in conduit? You made sure that the generator natural was not bonded as the > tend to be? To jays question; surging changes as the charge rate goes > down? Have you removed the air cleaner from the gen set and run it that > way, under a load? I have seen water vapor freezing in the air filter > causing surging I have also seen the rubber hose from AC to engine collapse > under a load then when the load goes away no more surge and under the load > up surges again and so on. > > On Mar 19, 2020, at 10:53 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi William > > 3 questions > > Did this system used to work? > > > The surging is happening even with no loads, just battery charging? > > Lastly, did you find a charging/ ac amp size that stopped the surging? > With 30 amps it’s still charging full rate, if you set it down further > does it stop? > > Jay > > Peltz Power. > > > > On Mar 19, 2020, at 12:20 AM, William Miller > wrote: > >  > Mac: > > > I know well what the AC input mode is. This is the project that had the > excessive THD on the voltage waveform (>26%f). Here is a link > > to the case study. > > > As you can see, we resolved the problem by changing the AC input mode to > Backup. After recent rains started and generator run became necessary, the > client started noticing flickering of lights and refrigerator operation was > unreliable. We examined the E-Gauge data and could see rapid fluctuations > in the generator output. At one point we saw generator power range from > 19kW to 12Kw and back in about 2 seconds. > > > We isolated the generator into a load bank and it was rock solid. We > tried lots of things but when we reconnected the generator to the Radians > and switched to the Radians to Generator input mode the surging stopped. > Unfortunately, the Generator mode causes tons of THD, as noted in the case > study. > > > So we can’t use Generator because of THD, and we can’t use Backup (or > Support or UPS) because in all these modes the generator surges. > > > By the way, this is a newish Kohler 30RCL. This should be a rock-solid > match to a 24 kW Radian system. > > > Like I said, we tried lots of things. What stopped the surging was to > open the AC input breaker to Inverter 1. It did not help to open the input > to Inverters 2 or 3. I don’t have a clue as to why this is so… > > > We tried taking Inverter 1 out of the system--moving inverter 2 up to > Master and Inverter 3 to Slave 1. The generator still surged. So if anyone > started to think Inverter 1 was the problem, this was not confirmed. > > > We are certain the neutral bonding is exactly as it should be. We tripled > checked this when chasing the THD problems. We also adjusted input AC from > 30 to 50 (per port), no improvement. > > > I must say Outback has been very available to us as we try to figure these > problems out. I am fortunate that I am working with a senior engineer. We > are both currently stumped, but we are going to consult again tomorrow and > see if any other ideas come to us. > > > Thanks everyone for the input. More soon. > > > William Miller > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Mac Lewis > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 18, 2020 6:35 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator surging > > > Hi William, > > > Do you know what your AC input mode is? > I'd try playing with this mode. > If you have a generator, I'd try switching between "generator", > "support". You may quickly see a difference. There is a small diode > symbol that shows up on the Mate3s screen during generator charging. I > don't fully understand what that means but I know that it can affect how a > generator works with the Radian. > > > Also, you may try lowering the charging current and see how the generator > responds. > > > What type of generator? Whats your AC input limits? > > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 6:56 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > Adjust the generator max output in the outback down and see what happens > Jerry > > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2020, 4:04 PM William Miller > wrote: > > Friends: > > > I have a 24kW Radian system that is acting up. The problem is when the > generator is running, it surges. Voltage and power go up and down. We > connected the generator to a load bank and there was no surging. This > makes me think the problem is in the Radian system. > > > Has anyone else experienced this? > > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > > William Miller > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkatz at backwoodssolar.com Fri Mar 20 15:59:51 2020 From: dkatz at backwoodssolar.com (David Katz) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:59:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge controllers. They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with the Outback system. Thanks, David Katz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 16:18:49 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 16:18:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I’ve used Blue Ion and Fortress eVault 18.5 with the Radian and both have worked well. Blue Ion’s BMU and egauge are very sophisticated and has 5 years on Fortress’s 10 year warranty. Fortress is a great value but its batteries are integrated into the cabinet and not modular like the Blue Ion and weighs nearly 500 lbs per. Makes moving them tricky, especially if you are up against stairs. On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 4:00 PM David Katz wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour > 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge > controllers. > They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi > batteries. > Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with > the Outback system. > Thanks, > David Katz > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Fri Mar 20 18:53:54 2020 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 18:53:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8ba221a5c17906b4389b63bbd6a24440.squirrel@mail.otelco.net> Hi Dave, We've been using Fortress Power EVaults (18.5 kw per) with good results with Radian 8048's Daryl > Hello Wrenches, > I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour > 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge > controllers. > They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi > batteries. > Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with > the Outback system. > Thanks, > David Katz > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 19:06:01 2020 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 17:06:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount fire code clarifications Message-ID: Hello esteemed Wrenches; I am trying to clear this up for a client and his AHJ, which is also puzzled at how to interpret IFC 2018, Section 1204.4, which states: Setback requirements shall not apply to ground-mounted, free-standing > photovoltaic arrays. A clear, brush-free area of 10 feet (3048 mm) shall be > required for ground-mounted photovoltaic arrays. I found one lone informational note in a white paper stating this was to prevent a burning PV array from igniting surrounding vegetation and the fire spreading. So, has anyone dealt with an AHJ on this before? Our questions are: - What exactly is a "free-standing photovoltaic array" that is exempt? A pole mount? Couldn't burning debris from that ignite vegetation underneath? - What exactly does "A clear, brush-free area of 10 feet (3048 mm)" mean? "10 feet" is a linear measurement, not an area, that would be in square feet. - What is "brush"? Does grass count as brush? I would interpret this on the safe side as meaning that all vegetation under the PV array and out to a 10 foot perimeter should be cleared, except for pole-mount arrays (that exception makes no sense to me). I always recommend to clients that the area *under* the ground mount array should be pea gravel bordered by railroad ties, but out to 10 feet from the array edge seems excessive. Any input greatly appreciated! Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP PV Associate NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Mar 20 16:23:33 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 13:23:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi David, They all work but none of them can get Soc and a few other things out to Optics unless you add an external Outback Battery monitor. Outback has said they plan to have their own Lithium battery out in the Fall. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:59:51 -0700, David Katz wrote: Hello Wrenches, I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge controllers. They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with the Outback system. Thanks, David Katz Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Mar 20 20:32:23 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 17:32:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount fire code clarifications In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In our area of California, when the green grass dies and turns brown, the area under any type of array needs to be free of grass. An array could ignite a wildfire if the array were emit sparks. This is a very rare condition but it can happen to even the best design and module type. There would not be any brush anywhere near an array. 10 feet from any point of the array makes sense but if there were a wildfire I would want alot more. 100 feet is typical for the zone around a home. That is what our AHJ wants to see in an inspection. We are in a very dangerous area for wildfires in the southern Sierra. Brush does not count as grass. An array should survive a grass fire. Brush would be much more dangerous and must be kept clear as it is a much larger heat source than grass. I hope this is helpful. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 17:06:01 -0600, Dan Fink wrote: Hello esteemed Wrenches; I am trying to clear this up for a client and his AHJ, which is also puzzled at how to interpret IFC 2018, Section 1204.4, which states: Setback requirements shall not apply to ground-mounted, free-standing photovoltaic arrays. A clear, brush-free area of 10 feet (3048 mm) shall be required for ground-mounted photovoltaic arrays. I found one lone informational note in a white paper stating this was to prevent a burning PV array from igniting surrounding vegetation and the fire spreading. So, has anyone dealt with an AHJ on this before? Our questions are: * What exactly is a "free-standing photovoltaic array" that is exempt? A pole mount? Couldn't burning debris from that ignite vegetation underneath? * What exactly does "A clear, brush-free area of 10 feet (3048 mm)" mean? "10 feet" is a linear measurement, not an area, that would be in square feet. * What is "brush"? Does grass count as brush? I would interpret this on the safe side as meaning that all vegetation under the PV array and out to a 10 foot perimeter should be cleared, except for pole-mount arrays (that exception makes no sense to me). I always recommend to clients that the area _under_ the ground mount array should be pea gravel bordered by railroad ties, but out to 10 feet from the array edge seems excessive. Any input greatly appreciated! Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP PV Associate NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor(tm) for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d [3]anbob88 at gmail.com [4] 970-672-4342 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com [4] mailto:anbob88 at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From findsolar at herzfeld.org Fri Mar 20 21:11:48 2020 From: findsolar at herzfeld.org (Martin Herzfeld) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 18:11:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount fire code clarifications In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dan, I think there should more discussions on ground-mounted arrays as an option in addition to rooftop systems - to get out ahead of any issues. In addition, any renderings for ground-mounted arrays and ground-mounted stuff as ESSs. 1. By definition, a brush could mean a "slight and fleeting touch" - which we do not want to do at these times :) or "undergrowth, small trees and shrubs." 2. The challenge also in one and and two family dwellings when there is a setback of only (3) three feet as an accessory structure and the (10) foot rule. 3. I think mounts can be categorized in general as SPMs (Side of Pole Mounts), TPMs (Top of Pole Mounts), MPM's (Multiple Pole Mounts) or an Open Structure with the ability to walk underneath or a Closed structure where you can not walk underneath. 4. BTW, you may wish to look at versions of ISEP and the IRC too? "A. RS402.4 (R324.6) Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems. Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems shall be designed and installed in accordance with Section (R301). B. RS402.4.1 (R324.6.1) Fire separation distances. Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems shall be subject to the fire separation distance requirements determined by the local jurisdiction." 5. Gravel and the various types is also my goto soil amendment. In California, I'd also suggest working with a C27 Landscaping Contractor on what type of blue flowers would be okay. What do you think? All the best, Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037 Contract Training Provider (CTP) Adjunct Professor, Energy California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, D56, D31, C-7 Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors #7035507 * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Provider Telephone & Text: 510.243.0190 On Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 4:06 PM Dan Fink wrote: > Hello esteemed Wrenches; I am trying to clear this up for a client and his > AHJ, which is also puzzled at how to interpret IFC 2018, Section 1204.4, > which states: > > Setback requirements shall not apply to ground-mounted, free-standing >> photovoltaic arrays. A clear, brush-free area of 10 feet (3048 mm) shall be >> required for ground-mounted photovoltaic arrays. > > > I found one lone informational note in a white paper stating this was to > prevent a burning PV array from igniting surrounding vegetation and the > fire spreading. > > So, has anyone dealt with an AHJ on this before? Our questions are: > > - What exactly is a "free-standing photovoltaic array" that is exempt? > A pole mount? Couldn't burning debris from that ignite vegetation > underneath? > - What exactly does "A clear, brush-free area of 10 feet (3048 mm)" > mean? "10 feet" is a linear measurement, not an area, that would be in > square feet. > - What is "brush"? Does grass count as brush? > > I would interpret this on the safe side as meaning that all vegetation > under the PV array and out to a 10 foot perimeter should be cleared, except > for pole-mount arrays (that exception makes no sense to me). > > I always recommend to clients that the area *under* the ground mount > array should be pea gravel bordered by railroad ties, but out to 10 feet > from the array edge seems excessive. > > Any input greatly appreciated! > > Dan Fink > Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting > NABCEP PV Associate > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Mar 21 11:46:21 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0d46eb73-83f9-7d26-8994-d7ce239e565c@solarray.com> We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently gotten much more competitive.  As it's names states, its simple.  Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles.  We use an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0 cable.  No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer (including Outback). Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries. Their tech support has been abysmal as well.   We're looking forward to them as one of the larger companies in the business, to put additional resources into their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to correct this problem. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 > kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback > FM charge controllers. > They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or > SimpliPhi batteries. > Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best > with the Outback system. > Thanks, > David Katz > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 11:03:15 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 08:03:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount fire code clarifications In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DA94412-9CFD-42C9-A059-60F02B9A0967@gmail.com> There is another aspect to the 10’ rule which is, its protection for the array from wildfires. 10’ might not be enough for that though depending on where you live. In regards to what’s being discussed, I have many ground mounts (not talking pole mounts)out there, I try to have them as high off the ground as practical, and to allow easy grass cutting. Yes brush would have been removed before install. I don’t agree with bringing gravel in, or any sort of barrier, we don t need a sterile environment under the array. And anyone who’s ever seen such a weed cloth/gravel area will see it grass in over time, so it really doesn’t work. Where I live, no fire danger in the winter after the rains, and during the green grass of spring. Cut the grass as it drys, and as we get no summer rain no more grass grows, until the following winter rains,spring time. Many people live in green all year areas, Hawaii for example, or what about if you have enough water to keep it all green? In the end it’s the AHJ’s world Jay Peltz power. > On Mar 20, 2020, at 7:28 PM, Martin Herzfeld wrote: > >  > Dan, > > I think there should more discussions on ground-mounted arrays as an option in addition to rooftop systems - to get out ahead of any issues. In addition, any renderings for ground-mounted arrays and ground-mounted stuff as ESSs. > > 1. By definition, a brush could mean a "slight and fleeting touch" - which we do not want to do at these times :) or "undergrowth, small trees and shrubs." > > 2. The challenge also in one and and two family dwellings when there is a setback of only (3) three feet as an accessory structure and the (10) foot rule. > > 3. I think mounts can be categorized in general as SPMs (Side of Pole Mounts), TPMs (Top of Pole Mounts), MPM's (Multiple Pole Mounts) or an Open Structure with the ability to walk underneath or a Closed structure where you can not walk underneath. > > 4. BTW, you may wish to look at versions of ISEP and the IRC too? > > "A. RS402.4 (R324.6) Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems. > Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems shall be designed and installed in accordance with Section (R301). > B. RS402.4.1 (R324.6.1) Fire separation distances. > Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems shall be subject to the fire separation distance requirements determined by the local jurisdiction." > > 5. Gravel and the various types is also my goto soil amendment. In California, I'd also suggest working with a C27 Landscaping Contractor on what type of blue flowers would be okay. > > What do you think? > > All the best, > > Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037 > Contract Training Provider (CTP) > Adjunct Professor, Energy > > California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, D56, D31, C-7 > Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation > > Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections > Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 > OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 > CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG > > * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors #7035507 > * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Provider > > Telephone & Text: 510.243.0190 > > >> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 4:06 PM Dan Fink wrote: >> Hello esteemed Wrenches; I am trying to clear this up for a client and his AHJ, which is also puzzled at how to interpret IFC 2018, Section 1204.4, which states: >> >>> Setback requirements shall not apply to ground-mounted, free-standing photovoltaic arrays. A clear, brush-free area of 10 feet (3048 mm) shall be required for ground-mounted photovoltaic arrays. >> >> I found one lone informational note in a white paper stating this was to prevent a burning PV array from igniting surrounding vegetation and the fire spreading. >> >> So, has anyone dealt with an AHJ on this before? Our questions are: >> What exactly is a "free-standing photovoltaic array" that is exempt? A pole mount? Couldn't burning debris from that ignite vegetation underneath? >> What exactly does "A clear, brush-free area of 10 feet (3048 mm)" mean? "10 feet" is a linear measurement, not an area, that would be in square feet. >> What is "brush"? Does grass count as brush? >> I would interpret this on the safe side as meaning that all vegetation under the PV array and out to a 10 foot perimeter should be cleared, except for pole-mount arrays (that exception makes no sense to me). >> >> I always recommend to clients that the area under the ground mount array should be pea gravel bordered by railroad ties, but out to 10 feet from the array edge seems excessive. >> >> Any input greatly appreciated! >> >> Dan Fink >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting >> NABCEP PV Associate >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers >> danbob88 at gmail.com >> 970-672-4342 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Sat Mar 21 13:02:53 2020 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 13:02:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <682ff8870f924fc6eaa6b8b2e6804af1.squirrel@mail.otelco.net> Fortress EVaults have their own lcd screen with Soc, but Dave is right, it's not as accurate on RE Optics. We do get a battery reading without any add-ons, they are just usually off up to 10% from each other. > > > Hi David, > > They all work but none of them can get Soc and a few other > things out to Optics unless you add an external Outback Battery monitor. > Outback has said they plan to have their own Lithium battery out in the > Fall. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines > don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > [2] > text 209 813 0060 > > On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:59:51 -0700, David Katz > wrote: Hello Wrenches, I am working with some people that want to use a > 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback > Radian > and Outback FM charge controllers. They are considering using Discover, > Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. Does any one have any > recommendations of which battery functions best with the Outback system. > Thanks, David Katz > > Links: > ------ > [1] > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From ray at solarray.com Sat Mar 21 13:11:35 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 13:11:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount fire code clarifications In-Reply-To: <3DA94412-9CFD-42C9-A059-60F02B9A0967@gmail.com> References: <3DA94412-9CFD-42C9-A059-60F02B9A0967@gmail.com> Message-ID: <92996609-91cd-7f75-a2fd-b26dd2df519e@solarray.com> I, second Jay's /no gravel/ sentiment.  I saw a huge 160 acre solar farm that they covered with hundreds of thousands of dollars of gravel. Punch Line?  Only the weeds came back.  And only the nice 3 ft tall ones that some might call brush..... Just use a weed eater or manually pull the taller stuff as needed a few times a year.  Smaller cordless weed eaters don't throw rocks as bad as the big motorized ones, and I would recommend clearing the rocks, not adding more. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/21/20 11:03 AM, Jay wrote: > There is another aspect to the 10’ rule which is, its protection for > the array from wildfires. 10’ might not be enough for that though > depending on where you live. > > In regards to what’s being discussed, I have many ground mounts (not > talking pole mounts)out there, I try to have them as high off the > ground as practical, and to allow easy grass cutting. Yes brush would > have been removed before install. > I don’t agree with bringing  gravel in, or any sort of barrier, we don > t need a sterile environment under the array.  And anyone who’s ever > seen such a weed cloth/gravel area will see it grass in over time, so > it really doesn’t work. > Where I live, no fire danger in the winter after the rains, and during > the green grass of spring. Cut the grass as it drys, and as we get no > summer rain no more grass grows, until the following winter > rains,spring time. > > Many people live in green all year areas, Hawaii for example, or what > about if you have enough water to keep it all green? > > In the end it’s the AHJ’s world > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > > > > > > >> On Mar 20, 2020, at 7:28 PM, Martin Herzfeld >> wrote: >> >>  >> Dan, >> >> I think there should more discussions on ground-mounted arrays as an >> option in addition to rooftop systems - to get out ahead of any >> issues.  In addition, any renderings for ground-mounted arrays and >> ground-mounted stuff as ESSs. >> >> 1.  By definition, a brush could mean a "slight and fleeting touch" - >> which we do not want to do at these times :) or "undergrowth, small >> trees and shrubs." >> >> 2.  The challenge also in one and and two family dwellings when there >> is a setback of only (3) three feet as an accessory structure and the >> (10) foot rule. >> >> 3.  I think mounts can be categorized in general as SPMs (Side of >> Pole Mounts), TPMs (Top of Pole Mounts), MPM's (Multiple Pole Mounts) >> or an Open Structure with the ability to walk underneath or a Closed >> structure where you can not walk underneath. >> >> 4. BTW, you may wish to look at versions of ISEP and the IRC too? >> >> "A.   RS402.4 (R324.6) Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems. >> >> Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems shall be designed and installed >> in accordance with Section (R301). >> >> B.  RS402.4.1 (R324.6.1) Fire separation distances. >> >> Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems shall be subject to the fire >> separation distance requirements determined by the local jurisdiction." >> >> >> 5.  Gravel and the various types is also my goto soil amendment. In >> California, I'd also suggest working with a C27 Landscaping >> Contractor on what type of blue flowers would be okay. >> >> >> What do you think? >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified >> Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional >> #IREC 10037 >> Contract Training Provider (CTP) >> Adjunct Professor, Energy >> >> California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782  C46, C10, >> D56, D31, C-7 >> Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, >> Instrumentation >> >> Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections >> Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 >> OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 >> CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG >> >> * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical >> Inspectors  #7035507 >> * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy >> Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Provider >> >> Telephone & Text: 510.243.0190 >> >> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 4:06 PM Dan Fink > > wrote: >> >> Hello esteemed Wrenches; I am trying to clear this up for a >> client and his AHJ, which is also puzzled at how to interpret IFC >> 2018, Section 1204.4, which states: >> >> Setback requirements shall not apply to ground-mounted, >> free-standing photovoltaic arrays. A clear, brush-free area >> of 10 feet (3048 mm) shall be required for ground-mounted >> photovoltaic arrays. >> >> I found one lone informational note in a white paper stating this >> was to prevent a burning PV array from igniting surrounding >> vegetation and the fire spreading. >> >> So, has anyone dealt with an AHJ on this before? Our questions are: >> >> * What exactly is a "free-standing photovoltaic array" that is >> exempt? A pole mount? Couldn't burning debris from that >> ignite vegetation underneath? >> * What exactly does "A clear, brush-free area of 10 feet (3048 >> mm)" mean? "10 feet" is a linear measurement, not an area, >> that would be in square feet. >> * What is "brush"? Does grass count as brush? >> >> I would interpret this on the safe side as meaning that all >> vegetation under the PV array and out to a 10 foot perimeter >> should be cleared, except for pole-mount arrays (that exception >> makes no sense to me). >> >> I always recommend to clients that the area /under/ the ground >> mount array should be pea gravel bordered by railroad ties, but >> out to 10 feet from the array edge seems excessive. >> >> Any input greatly appreciated! >> >> Dan Fink >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting >> NABCEP PV Associate >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers >> d anbob88 at gmail.com >> >> 970-672-4342 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 13:08:32 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 10:08:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: <682ff8870f924fc6eaa6b8b2e6804af1.squirrel@mail.otelco.net> References: <682ff8870f924fc6eaa6b8b2e6804af1.squirrel@mail.otelco.net> Message-ID: <7A548C1C-DEB0-4E78-A5FF-C5DBB674A053@gmail.com> Hi Dave, How do you know that the OB FNDC is correct vs the internal BMS? Jay Peltz Power. > On Mar 21, 2020, at 10:02 AM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote: > > Fortress EVaults have their own lcd screen with Soc, but Dave is right, > it's not as accurate on RE Optics. We do get a battery reading without any > add-ons, they are just usually off up to 10% from each other. >> >> >> Hi David, >> >> They all work but none of them can get Soc and a few other >> things out to Optics unless you add an external Outback Battery monitor. >> Outback has said they plan to have their own Lithium battery out in the >> Fall. >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines >> don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> [2] >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:59:51 -0700, David Katz >> wrote: Hello Wrenches, I am working with some people that want to use a >> 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback >> Radian >> and Outback FM charge controllers. They are considering using Discover, >> Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. Does any one have any >> recommendations of which battery functions best with the Outback system. >> Thanks, David Katz >> >> Links: >> ------ >> [1] >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Mar 21 14:18:21 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: <0d46eb73-83f9-7d26-8994-d7ce239e565c@solarray.com> References: <0d46eb73-83f9-7d26-8994-d7ce239e565c@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi Ray, Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day that got older units updated. Schneider still has the firmware under discontinued products. XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc. XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they are in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also. I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray wrote: We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently gotten much more competitive. As it's names states, its simple. Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles. We use an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0 cable. No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer (including Outback). Note to all: Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries. Their tech support has been abysmal as well. We're looking forward to them as one of the larger companies in the business, to put additional resources into their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to correct this problem. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote: Hello Wrenches, I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge controllers. They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with the Outback system. Thanks, David Katz _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [3] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [4] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [5] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [7] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Mar 21 14:31:45 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:31:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: <7A548C1C-DEB0-4E78-A5FF-C5DBB674A053@gmail.com> References: <682ff8870f924fc6eaa6b8b2e6804af1.squirrel@mail.otelco.net> <7A548C1C-DEB0-4E78-A5FF-C5DBB674A053@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8153a6f295e256f9ea3f0f973aaf3899@127.0.0.1> Hi Jay, Been awhile. Pretty weird times. Really nice to be off the grid, I think you would agree! The answer to your question is you don't know if it is accurate. I would call the tweaking of the numbers programmed into Flexnet or the Schneider bat mon :"for indication only" You can observe it and just tweek/compare to the battery internal Soc. The external monitor will have to have the shunt and all the other stuff that makes it a PITA. It does get basic Soc data and battery temp out to Optics and Insight2. Simply Phi had a nice paper on how to tweek/set Schneider and Outback bat mons. I have used that. The good news is that LFP is pretty stable (over time) and would not have the error stacking up like LA does in Soc. What happened to your friend with needing Insight2 advice? He probably figured it out as it is not that hard Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 10:08:32 -0700, Jay wrote: > Hi Dave, > > How do you know that the OB FNDC is correct vs the internal BMS? > > Jay > > Peltz Power. > > >> On Mar 21, 2020, at 10:02 AM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote: >> >> Fortress EVaults have their own lcd screen with Soc, but Dave is right, >> it's not as accurate on RE Optics. We do get a battery reading without >> any >> add-ons, they are just usually off up to 10% from each other. >>> >>> >>> Hi David, >>> >>> They all work but none of them can get Soc and a few other >>> things out to Optics unless you add an external Outback Battery monitor. >>> Outback has said they plan to have their own Lithium battery out in the >>> Fall. >>> >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines >>> don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> [2] >>> text 209 813 0060 >>> >>> On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:59:51 -0700, David Katz >>> wrote: Hello Wrenches, I am working with some people that want to use >>> a >>> 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback >>> Radian >>> and Outback FM charge controllers. They are considering using Discover, >>> Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. Does any one have any >>> recommendations of which battery functions best with the Outback system. >>> Thanks, David Katz >>> >>> Links: >>> ------ >>> [1] >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-cool.gif Type: image/gif Size: 354 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 14:58:32 2020 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 12:58:32 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount fire code clarifications In-Reply-To: <3DA94412-9CFD-42C9-A059-60F02B9A0967@gmail.com> References: <3DA94412-9CFD-42C9-A059-60F02B9A0967@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks for all the input on this, All. Here's an example of what Jay is pointing out regarding defensible space around the array. Note that the array was still live at ~140vdc when these photos were taken. The house was saved by helicopter water drops. Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP PV Associate NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 12:49 PM Jay wrote: > There is another aspect to the 10’ rule which is, its protection for the > array from wildfires. 10’ might not be enough for that though depending on > where you live. > > In regards to what’s being discussed, I have many ground mounts (not > talking pole mounts)out there, I try to have them as high off the ground as > practical, and to allow easy grass cutting. Yes brush would have been > removed before install. > I don’t agree with bringing gravel in, or any sort of barrier, we don t > need a sterile environment under the array. And anyone who’s ever seen > such a weed cloth/gravel area will see it grass in over time, so it really > doesn’t work. > Where I live, no fire danger in the winter after the rains, and during the > green grass of spring. Cut the grass as it drys, and as we get no summer > rain no more grass grows, until the following winter rains,spring time. > > Many people live in green all year areas, Hawaii for example, or what > about if you have enough water to keep it all green? > > In the end it’s the AHJ’s world > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > > > > > > > On Mar 20, 2020, at 7:28 PM, Martin Herzfeld > wrote: > >  > Dan, > > I think there should more discussions on ground-mounted arrays as an > option in addition to rooftop systems - to get out ahead of any issues. In > addition, any renderings for ground-mounted arrays and ground-mounted stuff > as ESSs. > > 1. By definition, a brush could mean a "slight and fleeting touch" - > which we do not want to do at these times :) or "undergrowth, small trees > and shrubs." > > 2. The challenge also in one and and two family dwellings when there is a > setback of only (3) three feet as an accessory structure and the (10) foot > rule. > > 3. I think mounts can be categorized in general as SPMs (Side of Pole > Mounts), TPMs (Top of Pole Mounts), MPM's (Multiple Pole Mounts) or an Open > Structure with the ability to walk underneath or a Closed structure where > you can not walk underneath. > > 4. BTW, you may wish to look at versions of ISEP and the IRC too? > > "A. RS402.4 (R324.6) Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems. > > Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems shall be designed and installed in > accordance with Section (R301). > > B. RS402.4.1 (R324.6.1) Fire separation distances. > > Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems shall be subject to the fire > separation distance requirements determined by the local jurisdiction." > > > 5. Gravel and the various types is also my goto soil amendment. In > California, I'd also suggest working with a C27 Landscaping Contractor on > what type of blue flowers would be okay. > > > What do you think? > > All the best, > > Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified > Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC > 10037 > Contract Training Provider (CTP) > Adjunct Professor, Energy > > California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, > D56, D31, C-7 > Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, > Instrumentation > > Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections > Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 > OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 > CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG > > * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors > #7035507 > * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy > Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Provider > > Telephone & Text: 510.243.0190 > > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 4:06 PM Dan Fink wrote: > >> Hello esteemed Wrenches; I am trying to clear this up for a client and >> his AHJ, which is also puzzled at how to interpret IFC 2018, Section >> 1204.4, which states: >> >> Setback requirements shall not apply to ground-mounted, free-standing >>> photovoltaic arrays. A clear, brush-free area of 10 feet (3048 mm) shall be >>> required for ground-mounted photovoltaic arrays. >> >> >> I found one lone informational note in a white paper stating this was to >> prevent a burning PV array from igniting surrounding vegetation and the >> fire spreading. >> >> So, has anyone dealt with an AHJ on this before? Our questions are: >> >> - What exactly is a "free-standing photovoltaic array" that is >> exempt? A pole mount? Couldn't burning debris from that ignite vegetation >> underneath? >> - What exactly does "A clear, brush-free area of 10 feet (3048 mm)" >> mean? "10 feet" is a linear measurement, not an area, that would be in >> square feet. >> - What is "brush"? Does grass count as brush? >> >> I would interpret this on the safe side as meaning that all vegetation >> under the PV array and out to a 10 foot perimeter should be cleared, except >> for pole-mount arrays (that exception makes no sense to me). >> >> I always recommend to clients that the area *under* the ground mount >> array should be pea gravel bordered by railroad ties, but out to 10 feet >> from the array edge seems excessive. >> >> Any input greatly appreciated! >> >> Dan Fink >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting >> NABCEP PV Associate >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers >> d anbob88 at gmail.com >> 970-672-4342 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 7612-8Tims.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 327061 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 7612-10Tims.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 310915 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 7612-11Tims.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 310931 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Mar 21 14:48:11 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:48:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <0d46eb73-83f9-7d26-8994-d7ce239e565c@solarray.com> Message-ID: <2037e72ac8f94e660cca6556579315f5@127.0.0.1> I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not too many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones are you talking about please? DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Hi Ray, Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day that got older units updated. Schneider still has the firmware under discontinued products. XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc. XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they are in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also. I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [4] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray wrote: We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently gotten much more competitive. As it's names states, its simple. Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles. We use an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0 cable. No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer (including Outback). Note to all: Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries. Their tech support has been abysmal as well. We're looking forward to them as one of the larger companies in the business, to put additional resources into their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to correct this problem. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote: Hello Wrenches, I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge controllers. They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with the Outback system. Thanks, David Katz _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [9] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 15:15:11 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 12:15:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: <8153a6f295e256f9ea3f0f973aaf3899@127.0.0.1> References: <8153a6f295e256f9ea3f0f973aaf3899@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Yea weird times. Ha I guess Zeke figured it out, oh well I’ve got 4 meters, and they agree if and only if they get to full every few days. If it goes longer they get further off. And I’m talking multiple trimetrics all set exactly the same. Given the flat curve of LipO, I don’t know if I trust external monitoring. But you might have better data which I’d like to hear. Jay > On Mar 21, 2020, at 11:44 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > >  > > > Hi Jay, > > Been awhile. Pretty weird times. Really nice to be off the grid, I think you would agree! > > The answer to your question is you don't know if it is accurate. I would call the tweaking of the numbers programmed into Flexnet or the Schneider bat mon :"for indication only" You can observe it and just tweek/compare to the battery internal Soc. > > The external monitor will have to have the shunt and all the other stuff that makes it a PITA. > > It does get basic Soc data and battery temp out to Optics and Insight2. Simply Phi had a nice paper on how to tweek/set Schneider and Outback bat mons. I have used that. The good news is that LFP is pretty stable (over time) and would not have the error stacking up like LA does in Soc. > > What happened to your friend with needing Insight2 advice? He probably figured it out as it is not that hard > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 10:08:32 -0700, Jay wrote: > > Hi Dave, > > > > How do you know that the OB FNDC is correct vs the internal BMS? > > > > Jay > > > > Peltz Power. > > > > > >> On Mar 21, 2020, at 10:02 AM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote: > >> > >> Fortress EVaults have their own lcd screen with Soc, but Dave is right, > >> it's not as accurate on RE Optics. We do get a battery reading without > >> any > >> add-ons, they are just usually off up to 10% from each other. > >>> > >>> > >>> Hi David, > >>> > >>> They all work but none of them can get Soc and a few other > >>> things out to Optics unless you add an external Outback Battery monitor. > >>> Outback has said they plan to have their own Lithium battery out in the > >>> Fall. > >>> > >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > >>> "we go where powerlines > >>> don't" > >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] > >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > >>> [2] > >>> text 209 813 0060 > >>> > >>> On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:59:51 -0700, David Katz > >>> wrote: Hello Wrenches, I am working with some people that want to use > >>> a > >>> 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback > >>> Radian > >>> and Outback FM charge controllers. They are considering using Discover, > >>> Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. Does any one have any > >>> recommendations of which battery functions best with the Outback system. > >>> Thanks, David Katz > >>> > >>> Links: > >>> ------ > >>> [1] > >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > >>> [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>> > >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> List-Archive: > >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >>> > >>> List rules & etiquette: > >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>> > >>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Sun Mar 22 03:37:32 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 00:37:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount fire code clarifications In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes Sonoma county requires 30' minimum from ground arrays for fire setbacks.  and by extension 30' from property lines (as an array owner can't control a neighbors brush removal) More is surely advised!  I imagine other CA counties have similar requirements. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 3/20/20 5:32 PM: > > In our area of California, when the green grass dies and turns brown, > the area under any type of array needs to be free of grass. An array > could ignite a wildfire if the array were emit sparks. This is a very > rare condition but it can happen to even the best design and module type. > > There would not be any brush anywhere near an array. 10 feet from any > point of the array makes sense but if there were a wildfire I would > want alot more. 100 feet is typical for the zone around a home. That > is what our AHJ wants to see in an inspection. We are in a very > dangerous area for wildfires in the southern Sierra. > > Brush does not count as grass. An array should survive a grass fire. > Brush would be much more dangerous and must be kept clear as it is a > much larger heat source than grass. I hope this is helpful. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 17:06:01 -0600, Dan Fink wrote: > >> Hello esteemed Wrenches; I am trying to clear this up for a client >> and his AHJ, which is also puzzled at how to interpret IFC 2018, >> Section 1204.4, which states: >> >> Setback requirements shall not apply to ground-mounted, >> free-standing photovoltaic arrays. A clear, brush-free area of 10 >> feet (3048 mm) shall be required for ground-mounted photovoltaic >> arrays. >> >> I found one lone informational note in a white paper stating this was >> to prevent a burning PV array from igniting surrounding vegetation >> and the fire spreading. >> So, has anyone dealt with an AHJ on this before? Our questions are: >> >> * What exactly is a "free-standing photovoltaic array" that is >> exempt? A pole mount? Couldn't burning debris from that ignite >> vegetation underneath? >> * What exactly does "A clear, brush-free area of 10 feet (3048 mm)" >> mean? "10 feet" is a linear measurement, not an area, that would >> be in square feet. >> * What is "brush"? Does grass count as brush? >> >> I would interpret this on the safe side as meaning that all >> vegetation under the PV array and out to a 10 foot perimeter should >> be cleared, except for pole-mount arrays (that exception makes no >> sense to me). >> I always recommend to clients that the area /under/ the ground mount >> array should be pea gravel bordered by railroad ties, but out to 10 >> feet from the array edge seems excessive. >> Any input greatly appreciated! >> Dan Fink >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting >> NABCEP PV Associate >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers >> d anbob88 at gmail.com >> >> 970-672-4342 >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From findsolar at herzfeld.org Sun Mar 22 13:56:42 2020 From: findsolar at herzfeld.org (Martin Herzfeld) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 10:56:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount fire code clarifications In-Reply-To: References: <3DA94412-9CFD-42C9-A059-60F02B9A0967@gmail.com> Message-ID: If a ground-mounted or rooftop array is not maintained, then it would be abandoned. 1. For instance, what about this debris on the rooftops under array? (Photo Attached) In other words, it's an ongoing practice to remove debris above the covering in a rooftop-array or under a ground-mounted array - after the install? :) 2. Is the conclusion with more than ~22 types and sizes of ground covering - gravel and pathway rock does not help for one and two family dwellings? For large arrays there's an issue of sealing the soil. BTW, were there any amendments used around the area of the array, a fence or screen on the back of the array? I agree about elevating the array as height as possible (NEC 110.27). On the other hand, depending on the manfacture, do not allow you to elevate the array more than ~7 feet in the rear for closed structures. However, if you lower the leading edge of the array, this improves aesthetics. Does this make sense? Martin On Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 11:58 AM Dan Fink wrote: > Thanks for all the input on this, All. Here's an example of what Jay is > pointing out regarding defensible space around the array. Note that the > array was still live at ~140vdc when these photos were taken. The house was > saved by helicopter water drops. > > Dan Fink > Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting > NABCEP PV Associate > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 12:49 PM Jay wrote: > >> There is another aspect to the 10’ rule which is, its protection for the >> array from wildfires. 10’ might not be enough for that though depending on >> where you live. >> >> In regards to what’s being discussed, I have many ground mounts (not >> talking pole mounts)out there, I try to have them as high off the ground as >> practical, and to allow easy grass cutting. Yes brush would have been >> removed before install. >> I don’t agree with bringing gravel in, or any sort of barrier, we don t >> need a sterile environment under the array. And anyone who’s ever seen >> such a weed cloth/gravel area will see it grass in over time, so it really >> doesn’t work. >> Where I live, no fire danger in the winter after the rains, and during >> the green grass of spring. Cut the grass as it drys, and as we get no >> summer rain no more grass grows, until the following winter rains,spring >> time. >> >> Many people live in green all year areas, Hawaii for example, or what >> about if you have enough water to keep it all green? >> >> In the end it’s the AHJ’s world >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mar 20, 2020, at 7:28 PM, Martin Herzfeld >> wrote: >> >>  >> Dan, >> >> I think there should more discussions on ground-mounted arrays as an >> option in addition to rooftop systems - to get out ahead of any issues. In >> addition, any renderings for ground-mounted arrays and ground-mounted stuff >> as ESSs. >> >> 1. By definition, a brush could mean a "slight and fleeting touch" - >> which we do not want to do at these times :) or "undergrowth, small trees >> and shrubs." >> >> 2. The challenge also in one and and two family dwellings when there is >> a setback of only (3) three feet as an accessory structure and the (10) >> foot rule. >> >> 3. I think mounts can be categorized in general as SPMs (Side of Pole >> Mounts), TPMs (Top of Pole Mounts), MPM's (Multiple Pole Mounts) or an Open >> Structure with the ability to walk underneath or a Closed structure where >> you can not walk underneath. >> >> 4. BTW, you may wish to look at versions of ISEP and the IRC too? >> >> "A. RS402.4 (R324.6) Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems. >> >> Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems shall be designed and installed in >> accordance with Section (R301). >> >> B. RS402.4.1 (R324.6.1) Fire separation distances. >> >> Ground-mounted photovoltaic systems shall be subject to the fire >> separation distance requirements determined by the local jurisdiction." >> >> >> 5. Gravel and the various types is also my goto soil amendment. In >> California, I'd also suggest working with a C27 Landscaping Contractor on >> what type of blue flowers would be okay. >> >> >> What do you think? >> >> All the best, >> >> Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified >> Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC >> 10037 >> Contract Training Provider (CTP) >> Adjunct Professor, Energy >> >> California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, >> D56, D31, C-7 >> Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, >> Instrumentation >> >> Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections >> Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 >> OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 >> CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG >> >> * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical >> Inspectors #7035507 >> * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy >> Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Provider >> >> Telephone & Text: 510.243.0190 >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 4:06 PM Dan Fink wrote: >> >>> Hello esteemed Wrenches; I am trying to clear this up for a client and >>> his AHJ, which is also puzzled at how to interpret IFC 2018, Section >>> 1204.4, which states: >>> >>> Setback requirements shall not apply to ground-mounted, free-standing >>>> photovoltaic arrays. A clear, brush-free area of 10 feet (3048 mm) shall be >>>> required for ground-mounted photovoltaic arrays. >>> >>> >>> I found one lone informational note in a white paper stating this was to >>> prevent a burning PV array from igniting surrounding vegetation and the >>> fire spreading. >>> >>> So, has anyone dealt with an AHJ on this before? Our questions are: >>> >>> - What exactly is a "free-standing photovoltaic array" that is >>> exempt? A pole mount? Couldn't burning debris from that ignite vegetation >>> underneath? >>> - What exactly does "A clear, brush-free area of 10 feet (3048 mm)" >>> mean? "10 feet" is a linear measurement, not an area, that would be in >>> square feet. >>> - What is "brush"? Does grass count as brush? >>> >>> I would interpret this on the safe side as meaning that all vegetation >>> under the PV array and out to a 10 foot perimeter should be cleared, except >>> for pole-mount arrays (that exception makes no sense to me). >>> >>> I always recommend to clients that the area *under* the ground mount >>> array should be pea gravel bordered by railroad ties, but out to 10 feet >>> from the array edge seems excessive. >>> >>> Any input greatly appreciated! >>> >>> Dan Fink >>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting >>> NABCEP PV Associate >>> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >>> ~ PV Installation Professional >>> ~ Small Wind Installer >>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers >>> d anbob88 at gmail.com >>> 970-672-4342 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20170213_114402.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2296137 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Mar 22 14:44:03 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 14:44:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: <2037e72ac8f94e660cca6556579315f5@127.0.0.1> References: <0d46eb73-83f9-7d26-8994-d7ce239e565c@solarray.com> <2037e72ac8f94e660cca6556579315f5@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not too > many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones are you > talking about please? > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 > 0060* > > On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > wrote: > >> Hi Ray, >> >> Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO >> and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day >> that got older units updated. Schneider still has the firmware under >> discontinued products. >> >> XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc. >> >> XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my >> guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they >> are in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also. >> >> I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and >> Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps. >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray wrote: >> >> We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has >> recently gotten much more competitive.  As it's names states, its >> simple.  Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the >> top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but >> with carry handles.  We use an insulated 2 pole combiner block to >> run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0 cable.  No >> monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with >> recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer (including >> Outback). >> >> Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, >> which basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries.  >> Their tech support has been abysmal as well. We're looking >> forward to them as one of the larger companies in the business, >> to put additional resources into their engineering, and come out >> with at least a firmware update to correct this problem. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour >> to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback >> Radian and Outback FM charge controllers. >> They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or >> SimpliPhi batteries. >> Does any one have any recommendations of which battery >> functions best with the Outback system. >> Thanks, >> David Katz >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Mar 22 14:47:42 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 11:47:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <0d46eb73-83f9-7d26-8994-d7ce239e565c@solarray.com> <2037e72ac8f94e660cca6556579315f5@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Wrenches Blue ion is a better solution, no extra parts cables or racking, all part of the "system" and works very well Jerry On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 11:44 AM Ray wrote: > Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not too many > batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones are you talking > about please? > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO and the > range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day that got older > units updated. Schneider still has the firmware under discontinued products. > > XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc. > > XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my guess > that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they are in > Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also. > > I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and > Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray > wrote: > > We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently > gotten much more competitive. As it's names states, its simple. Each 3.8 > kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and > are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles. We use an insulated > 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0 > cable. No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with > recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer (including Outback). > > Note to all: Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which > basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries. Their tech > support has been abysmal as well. We're looking forward to them as one of > the larger companies in the business, to put additional resources into > their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to correct > this problem. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour > 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge > controllers. > They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi > batteries. > Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with > the Outback system. > Thanks, > David Katz > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Sun Mar 22 15:14:57 2020 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 13:14:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <0d46eb73-83f9-7d26-8994-d7ce239e565c@solarray.com> <2037e72ac8f94e660cca6556579315f5@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <7c7f3ded-2dbd-1411-ca3e-80970fb52800@sindelarsolar.com> Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends 48V as LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit higher: "Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10% State of Charge) BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1% State of Charge) Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage correlations will vary. We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD setting and adjust as necessary. To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little reserve “fuel in the tank”." I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut down at 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot. Allan On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote: > > Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> >> I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not too >> many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones are you >> talking about please? >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >> >> *"we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 >> 813 0060* >> >> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Ray, >>> >>> Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO >>> and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day >>> that got older units updated. Schneider still has the firmware under >>> discontinued products. >>> >>> XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc. >>> >>> XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my >>> guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they >>> are in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also. >>> >>> I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and >>> Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps. >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray wrote: >>> >>> We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has >>> recently gotten much more competitive.  As it's names states, >>> its simple.  Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into >>> the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 >>> but with carry handles.  We use an insulated 2 pole combiner >>> block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0 cable.  >>> No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with >>> recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer (including >>> Outback). >>> >>> Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, >>> which basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries.  >>> Their tech support has been abysmal as well.   We're looking >>> forward to them as one of the larger companies in the business, >>> to put additional resources into their engineering, and come out >>> with at least a firmware update to correct this problem. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote: >>> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour >>> to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback >>> Radian and Outback FM charge controllers. >>> They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born >>> or SimpliPhi batteries. >>> Does any one have any recommendations of which battery >>> functions best with the Outback system. >>> Thanks, >>> David Katz >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Mar 22 15:20:04 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 15:20:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: <7c7f3ded-2dbd-1411-ca3e-80970fb52800@sindelarsolar.com> References: <0d46eb73-83f9-7d26-8994-d7ce239e565c@solarray.com> <2037e72ac8f94e660cca6556579315f5@127.0.0.1> <7c7f3ded-2dbd-1411-ca3e-80970fb52800@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <3158e9de-e68b-84e3-95bd-7513daaa766e@solarray.com> The possibility of dark start and 30% higher cost are 2 reasons we have preferred Simpliphi lately. Simpliphi just requires resetting its breaker on top of the battery.  Also the Simpliphi allows more layouts, so it doesn't stick out into the room.  We have one customer that has a system with each, and so far they prefer the Simpliphi over the Blue Ion.  Both are high quality solutions, but being able to afford more kWh of storage solves many issues. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/22/20 3:14 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > > Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends 48V as > LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit higher: > > "Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10% State of > Charge) > BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1% State of > Charge) > Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage correlations will > vary. > We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD setting > and adjust as necessary. > To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little reserve > “fuel in the tank”." > > I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut down at > 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot. > > Allan > > On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote: >> >> Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>> >>> I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not >>> too many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones >>> are you talking about please? >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >>> >>> *"we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 >>> 813 0060* >>> >>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Ray, >>>> >>>> Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO >>>> and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day >>>> that got older units updated. Schneider still has the firmware >>>> under discontinued products. >>>> >>>> XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc. >>>> >>>> XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my >>>> guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they >>>> are in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also. >>>> >>>> I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and >>>> Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps. >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray wrote: >>>> >>>> We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has >>>> recently gotten much more competitive.  As it's names states, >>>> its simple.  Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into >>>> the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 >>>> but with carry handles. We use an insulated 2 pole combiner >>>> block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0 >>>> cable.  No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide >>>> with recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer >>>> (including Outback). >>>> >>>> Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, >>>> which basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries.  >>>> Their tech support has been abysmal as well.   We're looking >>>> forward to them as one of the larger companies in the business, >>>> to put additional resources into their engineering, and come >>>> out with at least a firmware update to correct this problem. >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>> >>>> On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>> I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour >>>> to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback >>>> Radian and Outback FM charge controllers. >>>> They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born >>>> or SimpliPhi batteries. >>>> Does any one have any recommendations of which battery >>>> functions best with the Outback system. >>>> Thanks, >>>> David Katz >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Mar 22 16:15:56 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 13:15:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: <7c7f3ded-2dbd-1411-ca3e-80970fb52800@sindelarsolar.com> References: <0d46eb73-83f9-7d26-8994-d7ce239e565c@solarray.com> <2037e72ac8f94e660cca6556579315f5@127.0.0.1> <7c7f3ded-2dbd-1411-ca3e-80970fb52800@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC line that when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. In addition set the flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%. On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: > Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends 48V as > LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit higher: > > "Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10% State of > Charge) > BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1% State of > Charge) > Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage correlations will vary. > We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD setting and > adjust as necessary. > To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little reserve “fuel > in the tank”." > > I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut down at > 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot. > > Allan > On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote: > > Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not too many > batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones are you talking > about please? > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO and the > range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day that got older > units updated. Schneider still has the firmware under discontinued products. > > XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc. > > XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my guess > that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they are in > Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also. > > I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and > Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray > wrote: > > We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently > gotten much more competitive. As it's names states, its simple. Each 3.8 > kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and > are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles. We use an insulated > 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0 > cable. No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with > recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer (including Outback). > > Note to all: Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which > basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries. Their tech > support has been abysmal as well. We're looking forward to them as one of > the larger companies in the business, to put additional resources into > their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to correct > this problem. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour > 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge > controllers. > They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi > batteries. > Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with > the Outback system. > Thanks, > David Katz > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Mar 22 18:13:47 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 18:13:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <0d46eb73-83f9-7d26-8994-d7ce239e565c@solarray.com> <2037e72ac8f94e660cca6556579315f5@127.0.0.1> <7c7f3ded-2dbd-1411-ca3e-80970fb52800@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <5bd37b9e-7690-36a3-8c9d-a363942f7ecf@solarray.com> That's the whole point: we need the LBCO to be higher than 48v to catch the beginning of that steep drop off, so that there is still enough reserve left to keep the monitoring and solar charge controllers in operation, and avoid the dreaded dark start.  With Simpliphi, we don't have the dark start, but it still requires manual reset.   This isn't theoretical, we have been having serious trouble with a system because of Schneider's inability to set the LVD above 48 v.  Also setting the voltage higher (lower DOD) extends the cycle life of these batteries.  Otherwise, I love the stable 51 volts of Li+, even under load. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/22/20 4:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC line > that when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. In addition > set the flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%. > > On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar > wrote: > > Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends 48V > as LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit higher: > > "Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10% State > of Charge) > BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1% State > of Charge) > Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage correlations > will vary. > We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD > setting and adjust as necessary. > To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little > reserve “fuel in the tank”." > > I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut > down at 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot. > > Allan > > On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote: >> >> Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>> >>> I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are >>> not too many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which >>> ones are you talking about please? >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >>> >>> *"we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Ray, >>>> >>>> Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V >>>> LBCO and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back >>>> in its day that got older units updated. Schneider still has >>>> the firmware under discontinued products. >>>> >>>> XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc. >>>> >>>> XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would >>>> be my guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be >>>> sure they are in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also. >>>> >>>> I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback >>>> and Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps. >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail >>>> offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 >>>> 0060* >>>> >>>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has >>>> recently gotten much more competitive.  As it's names >>>> states, its simple. Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker >>>> built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit >>>> smaller than an L16 but with carry handles.  We use an >>>> insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel >>>> conductors to the main 2/0 cable.  No monitoring, but they >>>> do have an handy setup guide with recommended settings, >>>> specific for each manufacturer (including Outback). >>>> >>>> Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above >>>> 48, which basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ >>>> batteries.  Their tech support has been abysmal as well.   >>>> We're looking forward to them as one of the larger >>>> companies in the business, to put additional resources into >>>> their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware >>>> update to correct this problem. >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>> >>>> On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>> I am working with some people that want to use a 20 >>>> kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with >>>> an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge controllers. >>>> They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle >>>> Born or SimpliPhi batteries. >>>> Does any one have any recommendations of which battery >>>> functions best with the Outback system. >>>> Thanks, >>>> David Katz >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Mar 22 19:04:09 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 16:04:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: <5bd37b9e-7690-36a3-8c9d-a363942f7ecf@solarray.com> References: <5bd37b9e-7690-36a3-8c9d-a363942f7ecf@solarray.com> Message-ID: <425C4E8F-4B92-4C2B-9B38-DC8D58CFAEC2@gmail.com> Ray, Have you heard bought about using the Aux relay to control the AC output at what ever voltage you want? Jay > On Mar 22, 2020, at 3:13 PM, Ray wrote: > >  > That's the whole point: we need the LBCO to be higher than 48v to catch the beginning of that steep drop off, so that there is still enough reserve left to keep the monitoring and solar charge controllers in operation, and avoid the dreaded dark start. With Simpliphi, we don't have the dark start, but it still requires manual reset. This isn't theoretical, we have been having serious trouble with a system because of Schneider's inability to set the LVD above 48 v. Also setting the voltage higher (lower DOD) extends the cycle life of these batteries. Otherwise, I love the stable 51 volts of Li+, even under load. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 >> On 3/22/20 4:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >> Wrenches >> Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC line that when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. In addition set the flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%. >> >> On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: >>> Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends 48V as LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit higher: >>> >>> "Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10% State of Charge) >>> BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1% State of Charge) >>> Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage correlations will vary. >>> We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD setting and adjust as necessary. >>> To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little reserve “fuel in the tank”." >>> >>> I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut down at 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot. >>> >>> Allan >>> >>>> On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote: >>>> Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of. >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>> On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>>>> I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not too many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones are you talking about please? >>>>> >>>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>> >>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>> text 209 813 0060 >>>>>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Ray, >>>>>> >>>>>> Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day that got older units updated. Schneider still has the firmware under discontinued products. >>>>>> >>>>>> XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc. >>>>>> >>>>>> XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they are in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps. >>>>>> >>>>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>>> text 209 813 0060 >>>>>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently gotten much more competitive. As it's names states, its simple. Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles. We use an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0 cable. No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer (including Outback). >>>>>> >>>>>> Note to all: Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries. Their tech support has been abysmal as well. We're looking forward to them as one of the larger companies in the business, to put additional resources into their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to correct this problem. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>> On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote: >>>>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>>>> I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge controllers. >>>>>> They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. >>>>>> Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with the Outback system. >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> David Katz >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> -- >>> Allan Sindelar >>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>> 505 780-2738 cell >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Mar 22 19:43:17 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 16:43:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: <425C4E8F-4B92-4C2B-9B38-DC8D58CFAEC2@gmail.com> References: <425C4E8F-4B92-4C2B-9B38-DC8D58CFAEC2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry about spell check It should have read. Have you thought about... > On Mar 22, 2020, at 4:04 PM, Jay wrote: > >  > Ray, > Have you heard bought about using the Aux relay to control the AC output at what ever voltage you want? > > Jay > > > > >>> On Mar 22, 2020, at 3:13 PM, Ray wrote: >>> >>  >> That's the whole point: we need the LBCO to be higher than 48v to catch the beginning of that steep drop off, so that there is still enough reserve left to keep the monitoring and solar charge controllers in operation, and avoid the dreaded dark start. With Simpliphi, we don't have the dark start, but it still requires manual reset. This isn't theoretical, we have been having serious trouble with a system because of Schneider's inability to set the LVD above 48 v. Also setting the voltage higher (lower DOD) extends the cycle life of these batteries. Otherwise, I love the stable 51 volts of Li+, even under load. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >>> On 3/22/20 4:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>> Wrenches >>> Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC line that when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. In addition set the flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%. >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: >>>> Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends 48V as LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit higher: >>>> >>>> "Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10% State of Charge) >>>> BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1% State of Charge) >>>> Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage correlations will vary. >>>> We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD setting and adjust as necessary. >>>> To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little reserve “fuel in the tank”." >>>> >>>> I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut down at 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot. >>>> >>>> Allan >>>> >>>>> On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote: >>>>> Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of. >>>>> >>>>> Ray Walters >>>>> Remote Solar >>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>> On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>>>>> I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not too many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones are you talking about please? >>>>>> >>>>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>>> >>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>>> text 209 813 0060 >>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Ray, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day that got older units updated. Schneider still has the firmware under discontinued products. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they are in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>>>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>>>> text 209 813 0060 >>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently gotten much more competitive. As it's names states, its simple. Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles. We use an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0 cable. No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer (including Outback). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Note to all: Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries. Their tech support has been abysmal as well. We're looking forward to them as one of the larger companies in the business, to put additional resources into their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to correct this problem. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>>> On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote: >>>>>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>>>>> I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge controllers. >>>>>>> They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. >>>>>>> Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with the Outback system. >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> David Katz >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Allan Sindelar >>>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>>> 505 780-2738 cell >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Sun Mar 22 20:37:15 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 17:37:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: <425C4E8F-4B92-4C2B-9B38-DC8D58CFAEC2@gmail.com> References: <5bd37b9e-7690-36a3-8c9d-a363942f7ecf@solarray.com> <425C4E8F-4B92-4C2B-9B38-DC8D58CFAEC2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0850f315-4136-db4b-8601-435f9b88eb34@coveoregon.com> Jay, Do you mean: use the Aux relay to activate the Remote Power Off? What is the low battery setting range for the Aux relay? I don't see it in the manual. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 3/22/2020 4:04 PM, Jay wrote: > Ray, > Have you heard bought about using the Aux relay to control the AC > output at what ever voltage you want? > > Jay > > > > >> On Mar 22, 2020, at 3:13 PM, Ray wrote: >> >>  >> >> That's the whole point: we need the LBCO to be higher than 48v to >> catch the beginning of that steep drop off, so that there is still >> enough reserve left to keep the monitoring and solar charge >> controllers in operation, and avoid the dreaded dark start.  With >> Simpliphi, we don't have the dark start, but it still requires manual >> reset.   This isn't theoretical, we have been having serious trouble >> with a system because of Schneider's inability to set the LVD above >> 48 v.  Also setting the voltage higher (lower DOD) extends the cycle >> life of these batteries.  Otherwise, I love the stable 51 volts of >> Li+, even under load. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 3/22/20 4:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>> Wrenches >>> Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC >>> line that when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. In >>> addition set the flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%. >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends >>> 48V as LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit higher: >>> >>> "Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10% >>> State of Charge) >>> BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1% >>> State of Charge) >>> Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage correlations >>> will vary. >>> We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD >>> setting and adjust as necessary. >>> To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little >>> reserve “fuel in the tank”." >>> >>> I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut >>> down at 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot. >>> >>> Allan >>> >>> On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote: >>>> >>>> Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of. >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>> On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are >>>>> not too many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. >>>>> Which ones are you talking about please? >>>>> >>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >>>>> >>>>> *"we go where powerlines don't" >>>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail >>>>> offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 >>>>> 813 0060* >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid >>>>> Solar wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Ray, >>>>>> >>>>>> Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V >>>>>> LBCO and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back >>>>>> in its day that got older units updated. Schneider still has >>>>>> the firmware under discontinued products. >>>>>> >>>>>> XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc. >>>>>> >>>>>> XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would >>>>>> be my guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to >>>>>> be sure they are in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both >>>>>> Outback and Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps. >>>>>> >>>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail >>>>>> offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 >>>>>> 813 0060* >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing >>>>>> has recently gotten much more competitive.  As it's names >>>>>> states, its simple.  Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp >>>>>> breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a >>>>>> bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles.  We use >>>>>> an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the >>>>>> parallel conductors to the main 2/0 cable.  No >>>>>> monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with >>>>>> recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer >>>>>> (including Outback). >>>>>> >>>>>> Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD >>>>>> above 48, which basically makes it incompatible with most >>>>>> Li+ batteries. Their tech support has been abysmal as >>>>>> well.   We're looking forward to them as one of the >>>>>> larger companies in the business, to put additional >>>>>> resources into their engineering, and come out with at >>>>>> least a firmware update to correct this problem. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>>>> I am working with some people that want to use a 20 >>>>>> kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery >>>>>> with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge controllers. >>>>>> They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle >>>>>> Born or SimpliPhi batteries. >>>>>> Does any one have any recommendations of which >>>>>> battery functions best with the Outback system. >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> David Katz >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Allan Sindelar* >>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>> *505 780-2738 cell* >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Sun Mar 22 22:45:04 2020 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (greg egan) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 18:45:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real world production data for bifacials? Message-ID: Wrenches, good health to you and your loved ones.  I have a client that thinks he wants bifacial modules since his site is in the Alaskan arctic and they have snow a significant amount of the year.  I've been installing standard modules on racks that can be set at 90 deg in the fall and set back to ~lat -15deg in the spring.  They are snow free in the spring when it's clear and cold and they definitely make more power than the ones I see siting with snow on them all year.  A 6.2 kW array will put out 5.8kW AC under perfect conditions (90 deg tilt, solar noon, clear sky, cold etc.) Anyway, I browsed the archives and in general looks like they require special racking , clamps and raise the price significantly.  Have any of you installed some and seen increased power production in snow country and if so has it made up for the extra cost, extra labor etc.?  Have the modules been reliable? I'm looking for data on installed systems and maybe recommendations on where I can get price and availability on some so I can help my customer make an informed decision. All the best, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Mar 22 21:18:34 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 18:18:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: <0850f315-4136-db4b-8601-435f9b88eb34@coveoregon.com> References: <0850f315-4136-db4b-8601-435f9b88eb34@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: <5C0B58E2-B138-43B3-8170-08B157787F0E@gmail.com> Hi Kent, Yes that’s what I mean. According to the manual I’ve got, up to 52v for the low, 64 for the high. Which is high enough to do what the simpliphi needs. Jay > On Mar 22, 2020, at 5:37 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote: > >  Jay, > > Do you mean: use the Aux relay to activate the Remote Power Off? What is the low battery setting range for the Aux relay? I don't see it in the manual. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > >> On 3/22/2020 4:04 PM, Jay wrote: >> Ray, >> Have you heard bought about using the Aux relay to control the AC output at what ever voltage you want? >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> >>> On Mar 22, 2020, at 3:13 PM, Ray wrote: >>> >>>  >>> That's the whole point: we need the LBCO to be higher than 48v to catch the beginning of that steep drop off, so that there is still enough reserve left to keep the monitoring and solar charge controllers in operation, and avoid the dreaded dark start. With Simpliphi, we don't have the dark start, but it still requires manual reset. This isn't theoretical, we have been having serious trouble with a system because of Schneider's inability to set the LVD above 48 v. Also setting the voltage higher (lower DOD) extends the cycle life of these batteries. Otherwise, I love the stable 51 volts of Li+, even under load. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> On 3/22/20 4:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>>> Wrenches >>>> Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC line that when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. In addition set the flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%. >>>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: >>>>> Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends 48V as LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit higher: >>>>> >>>>> "Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10% State of Charge) >>>>> BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1% State of Charge) >>>>> Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage correlations will vary. >>>>> We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD setting and adjust as necessary. >>>>> To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little reserve “fuel in the tank”." >>>>> >>>>> I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut down at 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot. >>>>> >>>>> Allan >>>>> >>>>>> On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote: >>>>>> Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>> On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>>>>>> I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not too many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones are you talking about please? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>>>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>>>> text 209 813 0060 >>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Ray, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day that got older units updated. Schneider still has the firmware under discontinued products. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they are in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>>>>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>>>>> text 209 813 0060 >>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently gotten much more competitive. As it's names states, its simple. Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles. We use an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0 cable. No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer (including Outback). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Note to all: Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries. Their tech support has been abysmal as well. We're looking forward to them as one of the larger companies in the business, to put additional resources into their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to correct this problem. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>>>> On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote: >>>>>>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>>>>>> I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge controllers. >>>>>>>> They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. >>>>>>>> Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with the Outback system. >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> David Katz >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Allan Sindelar >>>>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>>>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>>>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>>>> 505 780-2738 cell >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Mon Mar 23 10:23:24 2020 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (greg at remotepowerinc.com) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 06:23:24 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real world production data for bifacials? - Correction References: Message-ID: <8F328D37-48E9-4F45-8F4B-DA167940B8C8@remotepowerinc.com> Wrenches, We don’t have snow all year in Fairbanks. Meant to say “all winter”. Anyway, onward. > Wrenches, good health to you and your loved ones. I have a client that thinks he wants bifacial modules since his site is in the Alaskan arctic and they have snow a significant amount of the year. I've been installing standard modules on racks that can be set at 90 deg in the fall and set back to ~lat -15deg in the spring. They are snow free in the spring when it's clear and cold and they definitely make more power than the ones I see siting with snow on them all WINTER. A 6.2 kW array will put out 5.8kW AC under perfect conditions (90 deg tilt, solar noon, clear sky, cold etc.) > > Anyway, I browsed the archives and in general looks like they require special racking , clamps and raise the price significantly. Have any of you installed some and seen increased power production in snow country and if so has it made up for the extra cost, extra labor etc.? Have the modules been reliable? I'm looking for data on installed systems and maybe recommendations on where I can get price and availability on some so I can help my customer make an informed decision. > > All the best, > > Greg Egan > > Remote Power Inc. > > From kent at coveoregon.com Mon Mar 23 10:30:38 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 07:30:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: <5C0B58E2-B138-43B3-8170-08B157787F0E@gmail.com> References: <0850f315-4136-db4b-8601-435f9b88eb34@coveoregon.com> <5C0B58E2-B138-43B3-8170-08B157787F0E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6ecef69f-9877-7784-b61c-f2606f75a575@coveoregon.com> I like that approach, Jay. Great idea. It gets the job done and is self contained - using only the features of the inverter. The remote power off could still be used with another remote switch. If there aren't enough aux output ports in the system, one could add a Morningstar relay driver. None-the-less, considering that Scneider Electric has made a lot of firmware changes to make the inverter compatible with lithium batteries, it is baffling that the low battery cutout hasn't been addressed. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 3/22/2020 6:18 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi Kent, > > Yes that’s what I mean. > > According to the manual I’ve got, up to 52v for the low, 64 for the high. > Which is high enough to do what the simpliphi needs. > > Jay > > > >> On Mar 22, 2020, at 5:37 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote: >> >>  Jay, >> >> Do you mean: use the Aux relay to activate the Remote Power Off? What >> is the low battery setting range for the Aux relay? I don't see it in >> the manual. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> >> On 3/22/2020 4:04 PM, Jay wrote: >>> Ray, >>> Have you heard bought about using the Aux relay to control the AC >>> output at what ever voltage you want? >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Mar 22, 2020, at 3:13 PM, Ray wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> >>>> That's the whole point: we need the LBCO to be higher than 48v to >>>> catch the beginning of that steep drop off, so that there is still >>>> enough reserve left to keep the monitoring and solar charge >>>> controllers in operation, and avoid the dreaded dark start.  With >>>> Simpliphi, we don't have the dark start, but it still requires >>>> manual reset.   This isn't theoretical, we have been having serious >>>> trouble with a system because of Schneider's inability to set the >>>> LVD above 48 v. Also setting the voltage higher (lower DOD) extends >>>> the cycle life of these batteries.  Otherwise, I love the stable 51 >>>> volts of Li+, even under load. >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>> On 3/22/20 4:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>>>> Wrenches >>>>> Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC >>>>> line that when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. In >>>>> addition set the flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%. >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends >>>>> 48V as LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit higher: >>>>> >>>>> "Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10% >>>>> State of Charge) >>>>> BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1% >>>>> State of Charge) >>>>> Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage >>>>> correlations will vary. >>>>> We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD >>>>> setting and adjust as necessary. >>>>> To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little >>>>> reserve “fuel in the tank”." >>>>> >>>>> I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut >>>>> down at 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot. >>>>> >>>>> Allan >>>>> >>>>> On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>> On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There >>>>>>> are not too many batteries out there that need LBCO above >>>>>>> 48V. Which ones are you talking about please? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *"we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail >>>>>>> offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 >>>>>>> 813 0060* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid >>>>>>> Solar >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Ray, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at >>>>>>>> 44V LBCO and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was >>>>>>>> firmware back in its day that got older units updated. >>>>>>>> Schneider still has the firmware under discontinued products. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It >>>>>>>> would be my guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one >>>>>>>> needs to be sure they are in Advanced settings to tweak >>>>>>>> LBCO also. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both >>>>>>>> Outback and Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail >>>>>>>> offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 >>>>>>>> 813 0060* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing >>>>>>>> has recently gotten much more competitive.  As it's >>>>>>>> names states, its simple.  Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 >>>>>>>> amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and >>>>>>>> are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles.  >>>>>>>> We use an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all >>>>>>>> the parallel conductors to the main 2/0 cable.  No >>>>>>>> monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with >>>>>>>> recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer >>>>>>>> (including Outback). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD >>>>>>>> above 48, which basically makes it incompatible with >>>>>>>> most Li+ batteries.  Their tech support has been >>>>>>>> abysmal as well. We're looking forward to them as one >>>>>>>> of the larger companies in the business, to put >>>>>>>> additional resources into their engineering, and come >>>>>>>> out with at least a firmware update to correct this >>>>>>>> problem. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>>>>>> I am working with some people that want to use a 20 >>>>>>>> kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery >>>>>>>> with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge >>>>>>>> controllers. >>>>>>>> They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, >>>>>>>> Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. >>>>>>>> Does any one have any recommendations of which >>>>>>>> battery functions best with the Outback system. >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> David Katz >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> *Allan Sindelar* >>>>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>>>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>>>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>>>> *505 780-2738 cell* >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > 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URL: From Sandra.Herrera at se.com Mon Mar 23 11:06:10 2020 From: Sandra.Herrera at se.com (Sandra Herrera) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 15:06:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: <0d46eb73-83f9-7d26-8994-d7ce239e565c@solarray.com> References: <0d46eb73-83f9-7d26-8994-d7ce239e565c@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi Ray, We have been working with most of the leading lithium manufacturers for several years now. Some have already implemented closed-loop integration such as Discover, other we are working with open-loop integration with Simpliphi, Fortress, Blue Ion, others. For the manufactures that are open loop, we have done extensive work with them, which included lab testing as well as support with the documentation. I have personally supported most of the manufacturers listed above; this includes Simpliphi and support of their documentation, related to the Schneider Electric setting. With the Conext XW Pro we are moving to SOC for many of these settings, that will integrate better than using voltage. Additional work of integrating these manufactures using Gateway through Modbus communication. I know that at times it seems very simple to make a programming change, but we as the manufacturers must look at the full picture of all the applications of the product and not create a conflict. An alternative would be a Simpliphi specifically firmware, this sounds very simple, but it is cost-prohibitive, as the product would have to be UL tested again. Each time we have to run a product through UL it will add to the cost of the product. It is a balance between the feature and staying competitive. I hope this help to cl;arify, let me know if you have any question Sandra Herrera Sandra.herrera at se.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2020 8:46 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently gotten much more competitive. As it's names states, its simple. Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles. We use an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0 cable. No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer (including Outback). Note to all: Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries. Their tech support has been abysmal as well. We're looking forward to them as one of the larger companies in the business, to put additional resources into their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to correct this problem. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote: Hello Wrenches, I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge controllers. They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with the Outback system. Thanks, David Katz _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Mar 23 11:36:45 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:36:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <0d46eb73-83f9-7d26-8994-d7ce239e565c@solarray.com> Message-ID: <197c96dc973d3487a4bcdae80290535e@127.0.0.1> Another way to buy more time with simplyphi would be to minimize LBCO hysteresis voltage and LBCO delay time. This would shut down the inverter sooner. They appear to be set at the defaults and could go lower. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 15:06:10 +0000, Sandra Herrera wrote: Hi Ray, We have been working with most of the leading lithium manufacturers for several years now. Some have already implemented closed-loop integration such as Discover, other we are working with open-loop integration with Simpliphi, Fortress, Blue Ion, others. For the manufactures that are open loop, we have done extensive work with them, which included lab testing as well as support with the documentation. I have personally supported most of the manufacturers listed above; this includes Simpliphi and support of their documentation, related to the Schneider Electric setting. With the Conext XW Pro we are moving to SOC for many of these settings, that will integrate better than using voltage. Additional work of integrating these manufactures using Gateway through Modbus communication. I know that at times it seems very simple to make a programming change, but we as the manufacturers must look at the full picture of all the applications of the product and not create a conflict. An alternative would be a Simpliphi specifically firmware, this sounds very simple, but it is cost-prohibitive, as the product would have to be UL tested again. Each time we have to run a product through UL it will add to the cost of the product. It is a balance between the feature and staying competitive. I hope this help to cl;arify, let me know if you have any question Sandra Herrera Sandra.herrera at se.com FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Ray SENT: Saturday, March 21, 2020 8:46 AM TO: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ------------------------- We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently gotten much more competitive. As it's names states, its simple. Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles. We use an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0 cable. No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer (including Outback). Note to all: Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries. Their tech support has been abysmal as well. We're looking forward to them as one of the larger companies in the business, to put additional resources into their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to correct this problem. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote: Hello Wrenches, I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge controllers. They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with the Outback system. Thanks, David Katz _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [3] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [4] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [5] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [7] ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&data=02%7C01%7Csandra.herrera%40se.com%7C407f988227f34589ec2108d7cdaf0650%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C637204023926837446&sdata=mVLv8GIMSCiqeHDJtA8m%2FJg%2FwMERGJwbjx7lP7lhGOE%3D&reserved=0 [5] https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&data=02%7C01%7Csandra.herrera%40se.com%7C407f988227f34589ec2108d7cdaf0650%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C637204023926837446&sdata=t5SwVj95dd%2FXO1GtUfhzABAHwdEX8pSWjczoKyJ%2FmQY%3D&reserved=0 [6] https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&data=02%7C01%7Csandra.herrera%40se.com%7C407f988227f34589ec2108d7cdaf0650%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C637204023926847400&sdata=4Zt7UImDoQUWI5bkd19tkzt8YMEqxqSqlRvF5kSabBY%3D&reserved=0 [7] https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csandra.herrera%40se.com%7C407f988227f34589ec2108d7cdaf0650%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C637204023926847400&sdata=DF%2F6xHm6WSaXde36TVsfCsqU2h8Yu8wot2MNz49D93k%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ryan.harkins at energycraft.com Mon Mar 23 11:03:12 2020 From: ryan.harkins at energycraft.com (Ryan Harkins) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 10:03:12 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Real world production data for bifacials? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2C5C1B05-BB9B-4F72-931F-46EC888728AB@energycraft.com> Hey Greg, We have a local distributor in Wisconsin that offers primarily bifacial modules now. They have a few case studies underway now, with a couple months of data showing perhaps 18% or so increased production compared to the same nameplate wattage modules. The sample size is short at this point, but the gains are encouraging especially considering they used standard 2 rail racking. I think going with standard racking, or perhaps a shared rail, is good enough to get some added output from the backside. They are somewhere in the $0.45-0.50/watt range. See attached case study, data, and spec sheet. Best, Ryan Harkins NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ / Project Manager Synergy Renewable Systems, LLC PO Box 58 Stoughton, WI 53589 PH: (608) 712-7862 ryan.harkins at energycraft.com www.energycraft.com > On Mar 22, 2020, at 9:45 PM, greg egan wrote: > > Wrenches, good health to you and your loved ones. I have a client that thinks he wants bifacial modules since his site is in the Alaskan arctic and they have snow a significant amount of the year. I've been installing standard modules on racks that can be set at 90 deg in the fall and set back to ~lat -15deg in the spring. They are snow free in the spring when it's clear and cold and they definitely make more power than the ones I see siting with snow on them all year. A 6.2 kW array will put out 5.8kW AC under perfect conditions (90 deg tilt, solar noon, clear sky, cold etc.) > > Anyway, I browsed the archives and in general looks like they require special racking , clamps and raise the price significantly. Have any of you installed some and seen increased power production in snow country and if so has it made up for the extra cost, extra labor etc.? Have the modules been reliable? I'm looking for data on installed systems and maybe recommendations on where I can get price and availability on some so I can help my customer make an informed decision. > > All the best, > > Greg Egan > > Remote Power Inc. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Speed Solar Bi-Facial PS-M72 datasheet 3-2-20.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 733824 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Mar 23 12:13:34 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 12:13:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: <6ecef69f-9877-7784-b61c-f2606f75a575@coveoregon.com> References: <0850f315-4136-db4b-8601-435f9b88eb34@coveoregon.com> <5C0B58E2-B138-43B3-8170-08B157787F0E@gmail.com> <6ecef69f-9877-7784-b61c-f2606f75a575@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: <708269a5-5576-fe72-6c4d-7d113725c2b9@solarray.com> That was our kludgey plan, if Schneider can't do a firmware update.  The issue I have with that, is the no load draw of the inverter is still 25 watts, so eventually it could still pull the batteries into full shutdown. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/23/20 10:30 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote: > I like that approach, Jay. Great idea. It gets the job done and is > self contained - using only the features of the inverter. The remote > power off could still be used with another remote switch. If there > aren't enough aux output ports in the system, one could add a > Morningstar relay driver. > > None-the-less, considering that Scneider Electric has made a lot of > firmware changes to make the inverter compatible with lithium > batteries, it is baffling that the low battery cutout hasn't been > addressed. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 3/22/2020 6:18 PM, Jay wrote: >> Hi Kent, >> >> Yes that’s what I mean. >> >> According to the manual I’ve got, up to 52v for the low, 64 for the >> high. >> Which is high enough to do what the simpliphi needs. >> >> Jay >> >> >> >>> On Mar 22, 2020, at 5:37 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote: >>> >>>  Jay, >>> >>> Do you mean: use the Aux relay to activate the Remote Power Off? >>> What is the low battery setting range for the Aux relay? I don't see >>> it in the manual. >>> >>> Kent Osterberg >>> Blue Mountain Solar >>> >>> >>> On 3/22/2020 4:04 PM, Jay wrote: >>>> Ray, >>>> Have you heard bought about using the Aux relay to control the AC >>>> output at what ever voltage you want? >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mar 22, 2020, at 3:13 PM, Ray wrote: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> >>>>> That's the whole point: we need the LBCO to be higher than 48v to >>>>> catch the beginning of that steep drop off, so that there is still >>>>> enough reserve left to keep the monitoring and solar charge >>>>> controllers in operation, and avoid the dreaded dark start. With >>>>> Simpliphi, we don't have the dark start, but it still requires >>>>> manual reset.   This isn't theoretical, we have been having >>>>> serious trouble with a system because of Schneider's inability to >>>>> set the LVD above 48 v.  Also setting the voltage higher (lower >>>>> DOD) extends the cycle life of these batteries.  Otherwise, I love >>>>> the stable 51 volts of Li+, even under load. >>>>> >>>>> Ray Walters >>>>> Remote Solar >>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>> On 3/22/20 4:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>>>>> Wrenches >>>>>> Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC >>>>>> line that when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. >>>>>> In addition set the flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual >>>>>> recommends 48V as LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit >>>>>> higher: >>>>>> >>>>>> "Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10% >>>>>> State of Charge) >>>>>> BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1% >>>>>> State of Charge) >>>>>> Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage >>>>>> correlations will vary. >>>>>> We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD >>>>>> setting and adjust as necessary. >>>>>> To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little >>>>>> reserve “fuel in the tank”." >>>>>> >>>>>> I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed >>>>>> shut down at 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot. >>>>>> >>>>>> Allan >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>>> On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There >>>>>>>> are not too many batteries out there that need LBCO above >>>>>>>> 48V. Which ones are you talking about please? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *"we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail >>>>>>>> offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 >>>>>>>> 813 0060* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid >>>>>>>> Solar >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Ray, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at >>>>>>>>> 44V LBCO and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was >>>>>>>>> firmware back in its day that got older units updated. >>>>>>>>> Schneider still has the firmware under discontinued products. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It >>>>>>>>> would be my guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one >>>>>>>>> needs to be sure they are in Advanced settings to tweak >>>>>>>>> LBCO also. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both >>>>>>>>> Outback and Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines >>>>>>>>> don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail >>>>>>>>> offgridsolar at sti.net text >>>>>>>>> 209 813 0060* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the >>>>>>>>> pricing has recently gotten much more competitive.  As >>>>>>>>> it's names states, its simple.  Each 3.8 kWh unit has >>>>>>>>> an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 >>>>>>>>> lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry >>>>>>>>> handles.  We use an insulated 2 pole combiner block to >>>>>>>>> run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0 >>>>>>>>> cable.  No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup >>>>>>>>> guide with recommended settings, specific for each >>>>>>>>> manufacturer (including Outback). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD >>>>>>>>> above 48, which basically makes it incompatible with >>>>>>>>> most Li+ batteries.  Their tech support has been >>>>>>>>> abysmal as well.   We're looking forward to them as >>>>>>>>> one of the larger companies in the business, to put >>>>>>>>> additional resources into their engineering, and come >>>>>>>>> out with at least a firmware update to correct this >>>>>>>>> problem. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>>>>>>> I am working with some people that want to use a >>>>>>>>> 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion >>>>>>>>> battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM >>>>>>>>> charge controllers. >>>>>>>>> They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, >>>>>>>>> Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. >>>>>>>>> Does any one have any recommendations of which >>>>>>>>> battery functions best with the Outback system. >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> David Katz >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> *Allan Sindelar* >>>>>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>>>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>>>>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>>>>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>>>>> *505 780-2738 cell* >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > 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URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 12:45:01 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 09:45:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <0d46eb73-83f9-7d26-8994-d7ce239e565c@solarray.com> Message-ID: What ever battery you may decide on make sure it's both Fire rated and UL listed. I have had customers require this from their insurance companies Jerry NABCEP solar inspector Jerry On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 8:06 AM Sandra Herrera wrote: > Hi Ray, > > We have been working with most of the leading lithium manufacturers for > several years now. Some have already implemented closed-loop integration > such as Discover, other we are working with open-loop integration with > Simpliphi, Fortress, Blue Ion, others. > > For the manufactures that are open loop, we have done extensive work with > them, which included lab testing as well as support with the documentation. > > > > I have personally supported most of the manufacturers listed above; this > includes Simpliphi and support of their documentation, related to the > Schneider Electric setting. > > > > With the Conext XW Pro we are moving to SOC for many of these settings, > that will integrate better than using voltage. Additional work of > integrating these manufactures using Gateway through Modbus communication. > > I know that at times it seems very simple to make a programming change, > but we as the manufacturers must look at the full picture of all the > applications of the product and not create a conflict. An alternative would > be a Simpliphi specifically firmware, this sounds very simple, but it is > cost-prohibitive, as the product would have to be UL tested again. Each > time we have to run a product through UL it will add to the cost of the > product. It is a balance between the feature and staying competitive. > > > > I hope this help to cl;arify, let me know if you have any question > > > > Sandra Herrera > > Sandra.herrera at se.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Ray > *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 8:46 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries > > > > [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] > ------------------------------ > > > > We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently > gotten much more competitive. As it's names states, its simple. Each 3.8 > kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and > are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles. We use an insulated > 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0 > cable. No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with > recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer (including Outback). > > Note to all: Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which > basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries. Their tech > support has been abysmal as well. We're looking forward to them as one of > the larger companies in the business, to put additional resources into > their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to correct > this problem. > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > 303 505-8760 > > On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour > 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge > controllers. > > They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi > batteries. > > Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with > the Outback system. > > Thanks, > > David Katz > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Mon Mar 23 15:39:19 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 12:39:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: <708269a5-5576-fe72-6c4d-7d113725c2b9@solarray.com> References: <0850f315-4136-db4b-8601-435f9b88eb34@coveoregon.com> <5C0B58E2-B138-43B3-8170-08B157787F0E@gmail.com> <6ecef69f-9877-7784-b61c-f2606f75a575@coveoregon.com> <708269a5-5576-fe72-6c4d-7d113725c2b9@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray, I agree it is a kludgey way to accomplish a low battery cut off. But, it doesn't change the no load draw issue. No load draw is still a problem even if the normal low battery cut off adjustment has enough range. At least with most lithium batteries there is a secondary shutoff. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 3/23/2020 9:13 AM, Ray wrote: > > That was our kludgey plan, if Schneider can't do a firmware update.  > The issue I have with that, is the no load draw of the inverter is > still 25 watts, so eventually it could still pull the batteries into > full shutdown. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 3/23/20 10:30 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote: >> I like that approach, Jay. Great idea. It gets the job done and is >> self contained - using only the features of the inverter. The remote >> power off could still be used with another remote switch. If there >> aren't enough aux output ports in the system, one could add a >> Morningstar relay driver. >> >> None-the-less, considering that Scneider Electric has made a lot of >> firmware changes to make the inverter compatible with lithium >> batteries, it is baffling that the low battery cutout hasn't been >> addressed. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> >> On 3/22/2020 6:18 PM, Jay wrote: >>> Hi Kent, >>> >>> Yes that’s what I mean. >>> >>> According to the manual I’ve got, up to 52v for the low, 64 for the >>> high. >>> Which is high enough to do what the simpliphi needs. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Mar 22, 2020, at 5:37 PM, Kent Osterberg >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>  Jay, >>>> >>>> Do you mean: use the Aux relay to activate the Remote Power Off? >>>> What is the low battery setting range for the Aux relay? I don't >>>> see it in the manual. >>>> >>>> Kent Osterberg >>>> Blue Mountain Solar >>>> >>>> >>>> On 3/22/2020 4:04 PM, Jay wrote: >>>>> Ray, >>>>> Have you heard bought about using the Aux relay to control the AC >>>>> output at what ever voltage you want? >>>>> >>>>> Jay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 22, 2020, at 3:13 PM, Ray wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>  >>>>>> >>>>>> That's the whole point: we need the LBCO to be higher than 48v to >>>>>> catch the beginning of that steep drop off, so that there is >>>>>> still enough reserve left to keep the monitoring and solar charge >>>>>> controllers in operation, and avoid the dreaded dark start.  With >>>>>> Simpliphi, we don't have the dark start, but it still requires >>>>>> manual reset.   This isn't theoretical, we have been having >>>>>> serious trouble with a system because of Schneider's inability to >>>>>> set the LVD above 48 v. Also setting the voltage higher (lower >>>>>> DOD) extends the cycle life of these batteries. Otherwise, I love >>>>>> the stable 51 volts of Li+, even under load. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>> On 3/22/20 4:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>>>>>> Wrenches >>>>>>> Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC >>>>>>> line that when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. >>>>>>> In addition set the flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual >>>>>>> recommends 48V as LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit >>>>>>> higher: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10% >>>>>>> State of Charge) >>>>>>> BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1% >>>>>>> State of Charge) >>>>>>> Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage >>>>>>> correlations will vary. >>>>>>> We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher >>>>>>> LVD setting and adjust as necessary. >>>>>>> To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little >>>>>>> reserve “fuel in the tank”." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed >>>>>>> shut down at 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>>>> On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There >>>>>>>>> are not too many batteries out there that need LBCO above >>>>>>>>> 48V. Which ones are you talking about please? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *"we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>>>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail >>>>>>>>> offgridsolar at sti.net text >>>>>>>>> 209 813 0060* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid >>>>>>>>> Solar >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Ray, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at >>>>>>>>>> 44V LBCO and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was >>>>>>>>>> firmware back in its day that got older units updated. >>>>>>>>>> Schneider still has the firmware under discontinued products. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It >>>>>>>>>> would be my guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one >>>>>>>>>> needs to be sure they are in Advanced settings to tweak >>>>>>>>>> LBCO also. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both >>>>>>>>>> Outback and Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this >>>>>>>>>> helps. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines >>>>>>>>>> don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail >>>>>>>>>> offgridsolar at sti.net text >>>>>>>>>> 209 813 0060* >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the >>>>>>>>>> pricing has recently gotten much more competitive.  >>>>>>>>>> As it's names states, its simple.  Each 3.8 kWh unit >>>>>>>>>> has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about >>>>>>>>>> 75 lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but with >>>>>>>>>> carry handles.  We use an insulated 2 pole combiner >>>>>>>>>> block to run all the parallel conductors to the main >>>>>>>>>> 2/0 cable.  No monitoring, but they do have an handy >>>>>>>>>> setup guide with recommended settings, specific for >>>>>>>>>> each manufacturer (including Outback). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD >>>>>>>>>> above 48, which basically makes it incompatible with >>>>>>>>>> most Li+ batteries.  Their tech support has been >>>>>>>>>> abysmal as well.   We're looking forward to them as >>>>>>>>>> one of the larger companies in the business, to put >>>>>>>>>> additional resources into their engineering, and come >>>>>>>>>> out with at least a firmware update to correct this >>>>>>>>>> problem. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>>>>>>>> I am working with some people that want to use a >>>>>>>>>> 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion >>>>>>>>>> battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM >>>>>>>>>> charge controllers. >>>>>>>>>> They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, >>>>>>>>>> Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. >>>>>>>>>> Does any one have any recommendations of which >>>>>>>>>> battery functions best with the Outback system. >>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>> David Katz >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Allan Sindelar* >>>>>>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>>>>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>>>>>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>>>>>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>>>>>> *505 780-2738 cell* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List-Archive: >>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Mar 23 17:06:08 2020 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 14:06:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <0850f315-4136-db4b-8601-435f9b88eb34@coveoregon.com> <5C0B58E2-B138-43B3-8170-08B157787F0E@gmail.com> <6ecef69f-9877-7784-b61c-f2606f75a575@coveoregon.com> <708269a5-5576-fe72-6c4d-7d113725c2b9@solarray.com> Message-ID: Wrenchers,             I seem to continue to have my foot stuck in the past regarding off-grid.  Off -grid seems to have more of an element of a need for reliability, redundancy, klugability.  Believe me L-ion batteries and especially the "total units" like the: https://simpliphipower.com/product/access-sol-ark/ are beautiful answers to "buy it connect up the cables and forget it", no maintenance to boot.  I want one. But Yikes, many of these companies are new, which will survive well into their warranty period?  Its a double-edge sword....if we don't transition into the L-ion world, how will they survive?             Also, if the charge controller, battery cell (in 2 volt cell battery pack), fan or inverter fails in a more conventional system, there's probably a go-around spare whatever in stock (or the failed 2 volt cell can be cabled around waiting for a new cell).  Maybe all I'm asking is how field serviceable is a failed L-ion battery or its BMS? or the total units like above? Are there failures? maybe too soon to know.             Go ahead, beat me with a stick, maybe I'll learn something. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Mar 23 17:53:17 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 14:53:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <0850f315-4136-db4b-8601-435f9b88eb34@coveoregon.com> <5C0B58E2-B138-43B3-8170-08B157787F0E@gmail.com> <6ecef69f-9877-7784-b61c-f2606f75a575@coveoregon.com> <708269a5-5576-fe72-6c4d-7d113725c2b9@solarray.com> Message-ID: <49f821b5b6d88d16679f973cab6796a9@127.0.0.1> Bill, I too have the same issues and the only reliable (long term) way offgrid is to have both chemistries. You get the best of the new battery types (partial Soc tolerant) and the reliability of a a LA battery without any electronics adding new ways to lose power. By having both hooked up to their own inverter you get redundancy and more days of autonomy. It costs more and people need training but peace of mind is very good thing. Good for the user and good for the practitioner. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 14:06:08 -0700, frenergy wrote: > Wrenchers, > >             I seem to continue to have my foot stuck in the past > regarding off-grid.  Off -grid seems to have more of an element of a > need for reliability, redundancy, klugability.  Believe me L-ion > batteries and especially the "total units" like the: > > https://simpliphipower.com/product/access-sol-ark/ > > are beautiful answers to "buy it connect up the cables and forget it", > no maintenance to boot.  I want one. But Yikes, many of these companies > are new, which will survive well into their warranty period?  Its a > double-edge sword....if we don't transition into the L-ion world, how > will they survive? > >             Also, if the charge controller, battery cell (in 2 volt > cell battery pack), fan or inverter fails in a more conventional system, > there's probably a go-around spare whatever in stock (or the failed 2 > volt cell can be cabled around waiting for a new cell).  Maybe all I'm > asking is how field serviceable is a failed L-ion battery or its BMS? or > the total units like above? Are there failures? maybe too soon to know. > >             Go ahead, beat me with a stick, maybe I'll learn something. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 18:21:45 2020 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 17:21:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi David, I have used "Iron Edison" they will custom build a LiFe PO battery to your specifications There may be a way to combine LiFe and Pb acid, using the LiFe PO for cycling and the Pb for high energy. If cycling is a smaller portion of the load. On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 3:00 PM David Katz wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour > 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge > controllers. > They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi > batteries. > Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with > the Outback system. > Thanks, > David Katz > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 18:52:54 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 15:52:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <0850f315-4136-db4b-8601-435f9b88eb34@coveoregon.com> <5C0B58E2-B138-43B3-8170-08B157787F0E@gmail.com> <6ecef69f-9877-7784-b61c-f2606f75a575@coveoregon.com> <708269a5-5576-fe72-6c4d-7d113725c2b9@solarray.com> Message-ID: Blue planet has money behind them and already years of manufacturing, many more years then some of the other manufacturers out there Jerry On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 2:06 PM frenergy wrote: > Wrenchers, > > I seem to continue to have my foot stuck in the past > regarding off-grid. Off -grid seems to have more of an element of a > need for reliability, redundancy, klugability. Believe me L-ion > batteries and especially the "total units" like the: > > https://simpliphipower.com/product/access-sol-ark/ > > are beautiful answers to "buy it connect up the cables and forget it", > no maintenance to boot. I want one. But Yikes, many of these companies > are new, which will survive well into their warranty period? Its a > double-edge sword....if we don't transition into the L-ion world, how > will they survive? > > Also, if the charge controller, battery cell (in 2 volt > cell battery pack), fan or inverter fails in a more conventional system, > there's probably a go-around spare whatever in stock (or the failed 2 > volt cell can be cabled around waiting for a new cell). Maybe all I'm > asking is how field serviceable is a failed L-ion battery or its BMS? or > the total units like above? Are there failures? maybe too soon to know. > > Go ahead, beat me with a stick, maybe I'll learn something. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 19:36:51 2020 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 16:36:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <0850f315-4136-db4b-8601-435f9b88eb34@coveoregon.com> <5C0B58E2-B138-43B3-8170-08B157787F0E@gmail.com> <6ecef69f-9877-7784-b61c-f2606f75a575@coveoregon.com> <708269a5-5576-fe72-6c4d-7d113725c2b9@solarray.com> Message-ID: Discover Battery has been around since just after WWII. I think that since each Li battery is native to the system voltage, the way to get some redundancy is to simply have more than one battery, most systems will anyway. Then if one fails you can use the other ones until the failed one is replaced or fixed. A lead battery would be less prone to catastrophic failure, alkaline batteries even more so if you can handle the cost and other issues, so there is something to be said for that. I have multiple inverters and battery banks and it has come in handy when there are failures (inverters). Brad On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 3:53 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Blue planet has money behind them and already years of manufacturing, many > more years then some of the other manufacturers out there > Jerry > > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 2:06 PM frenergy wrote: > >> Wrenchers, >> >> I seem to continue to have my foot stuck in the past >> regarding off-grid. Off -grid seems to have more of an element of a >> need for reliability, redundancy, klugability. Believe me L-ion >> batteries and especially the "total units" like the: >> >> https://simpliphipower.com/product/access-sol-ark/ >> >> are beautiful answers to "buy it connect up the cables and forget it", >> no maintenance to boot. I want one. But Yikes, many of these companies >> are new, which will survive well into their warranty period? Its a >> double-edge sword....if we don't transition into the L-ion world, how >> will they survive? >> >> Also, if the charge controller, battery cell (in 2 volt >> cell battery pack), fan or inverter fails in a more conventional system, >> there's probably a go-around spare whatever in stock (or the failed 2 >> volt cell can be cabled around waiting for a new cell). Maybe all I'm >> asking is how field serviceable is a failed L-ion battery or its BMS? or >> the total units like above? Are there failures? maybe too soon to know. >> >> Go ahead, beat me with a stick, maybe I'll learn something. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> >> -- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Mar 23 20:50:57 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 17:50:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insight2 Phone App service down? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22350a61-318d-c74a-65db-8530d5485db5@villagepowerdesign.com> Hi Wrenches, A client alerted me to the fact he can't connect via the Conext Solar app on his phone for the last few days.  I tried and got the same thing "Service Unavailable - try again later". The website works fine - but anyone else having the same result with the phone app? Sandra H? Thanks, Jeff -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Mar 23 21:30:06 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 18:30:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Insight2_Phone_App_service_down=3F?= In-Reply-To: <22350a61-318d-c74a-65db-8530d5485db5@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <22350a61-318d-c74a-65db-8530d5485db5@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <1323c76385cffe750be6c7fde70b295e@127.0.0.1> Yes ! CI2 has been down since friday for 3 of us. Probably some pretty big things going on when you can't go to work. I heard the server needs to be re-booted. My droid table app works at the house but both apple and droid phones are down. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 17:50:57 -0700, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hi Wrenches, A client alerted me to the fact he can't connect via the Conext Solar app on his phone for the last few days. I tried and got the same thing "Service Unavailable - try again later". The website works fine - but anyone else having the same result with the phone app? Sandra H? Thanks, Jeff -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin [3] www.villagepowerdesign.com [4] cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/ [4] http://www.villagepowerdesign.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Mar 23 22:46:28 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 22:46:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <0850f315-4136-db4b-8601-435f9b88eb34@coveoregon.com> <5C0B58E2-B138-43B3-8170-08B157787F0E@gmail.com> <6ecef69f-9877-7784-b61c-f2606f75a575@coveoregon.com> <708269a5-5576-fe72-6c4d-7d113725c2b9@solarray.com> Message-ID: <55a6b1fe-f3c3-53b9-4157-32dfc492792c@solarray.com> Simpliphi has been around since 2002, so they actually are older than their 10 year old warranty.  Most other companies can't make that claim.  As far as reliability, each 3.8 kWh is independent, so you can just shut down a bad unit and send it in for repair. I'm building systems with 4 to 6 units usually.   I too have long term questions, especially about corrosion in marine environments, and long term issues with electronics such as capacitors drying out. I think the BMS may go out befor the projected 8000 cycles to 100% DOD. I've been a part of the solar experiment since the 80s, and we've come a very long ways, which is amazing.  For all the questions we have, lead acid is definitely going to be come obsolete in our life times, so the sooner we all get savvy with newer technologies the better. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/23/20 7:36 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: > Discover Battery has been around since just after WWII. I think that > since each Li battery is native to the system voltage, the way to get > some redundancy is to simply have more than one battery, most systems > will anyway. Then if one fails you can use the other ones until the > failed one is replaced or fixed. A lead battery would be less prone to > catastrophic failure, alkaline batteries even more so if you can > handle the cost and other issues, so there is something to be said for > that. I have multiple inverters and battery banks and it has come in > handy when there are failures (inverters). > > Brad > > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 3:53 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > Blue planet has money behind them and already years of > manufacturing, many more years then some of the other > manufacturers out there > Jerry > > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 2:06 PM frenergy > wrote: > > Wrenchers, > >              I seem to continue to have my foot stuck in the past > regarding off-grid.  Off -grid seems to have more of an > element of a > need for reliability, redundancy, klugability.  Believe me L-ion > batteries and especially the "total units" like the: > > https://simpliphipower.com/product/access-sol-ark/ > > are beautiful answers to "buy it connect up the cables and > forget it", > no maintenance to boot.  I want one. But Yikes, many of these > companies > are new, which will survive well into their warranty period?  > Its a > double-edge sword....if we don't transition into the L-ion > world, how > will they survive? > >              Also, if the charge controller, battery cell (in > 2 volt > cell battery pack), fan or inverter fails in a more > conventional system, > there's probably a go-around spare whatever in stock (or the > failed 2 > volt cell can be cabled around waiting for a new cell). Maybe > all I'm > asking is how field serviceable is a failed L-ion battery or > its BMS? or > the total units like above? Are there failures? maybe too soon > to know. > >              Go ahead, beat me with a stick, maybe I'll learn > something. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus > software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sandra.Herrera at se.com Tue Mar 24 09:44:24 2020 From: Sandra.Herrera at se.com (Sandra Herrera) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 13:44:24 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insight2 Phone App service down? In-Reply-To: <22350a61-318d-c74a-65db-8530d5485db5@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <22350a61-318d-c74a-65db-8530d5485db5@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Hello Jeff, The issue is with “SSL certificate expiry “, we are updating for App store and Play store today. Sorry for the inconvenience. Sandra Herrera Sandra.herrera at se.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jeff Clearwater Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 5:51 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insight2 Phone App service down? [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ Hi Wrenches, A client alerted me to the fact he can't connect via the Conext Solar app on his phone for the last few days. I tried and got the same thing "Service Unavailable - try again later". The website works fine - but anyone else having the same result with the phone app? Sandra H? Thanks, Jeff -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Mar 25 11:27:32 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 08:27:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Insight2_Phone_App_service_down=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <22350a61-318d-c74a-65db-8530d5485db5@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <09a9d862813e6fd7139e8eef5589006f@127.0.0.1> The Gateway/insight2 mobile app is working for apple phones again. Have not tested androids yet. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 13:44:24 +0000, Sandra Herrera wrote: Hello Jeff, The issue is with "SSL certificate expiry ", we are updating for App store and Play store today. Sorry for the inconvenience. Sandra Herrera Sandra.herrera at se.com [3] FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Jeff Clearwater SENT: Monday, March 23, 2020 5:51 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Insight2 Phone App service down? [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ------------------------- Hi Wrenches, A CLIENT ALERTED ME TO THE FACT HE CAN'T CONNECT VIA THE CONEXT SOLAR APP ON HIS PHONE FOR THE LAST FEW DAYS. I tried and got the same thing "SERVICE UNAVAILABLE - TRY AGAIN LATER". The website works fine - but anyone else having the same result with the phone app? Sandra H? Thanks, Jeff -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin [4] www.villagepowerdesign.com [5] cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:Sandra.herrera at se.com [4] https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Fjeff-clearwater-0622a312%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csandra.herrera%40se.com%7C431e7617ee50426e491808d7cf8d701d%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C637206078701793222&sdata=LpEFSBf%2B96iyCqWBaH6FBoB3rFBjy9zm10SXe1cFBrc%3D&reserved=0 [5] https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.villagepowerdesign.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csandra.herrera%40se.com%7C431e7617ee50426e491808d7cf8d701d%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C637206078701803217&sdata=OHvfojcbD6MspBw%2Bc0Gpe7OofO%2BnAUDkN06KmedxfBs%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Maha grid home.png Type: image/png Size: 371109 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Thu Mar 26 20:24:18 2020 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 20:24:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3 not saving data Message-ID: Hi all, I've inherited a system where the Mate3 is not saving data to the SD card. Has anyone seen this before? In the Mate3 settings, it is set to download data to excel every minute and save the last maximum days. I've tried two different SD cards. I was able to successfully update firmware with the SD card. But there are never any logfiles on there. Any suggestions? Thanks! -Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Fri Mar 27 11:45:26 2020 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 15:45:26 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3 not saving data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dave On the Mate Hit Lock enter the Password (141) Setting is highlighted press enter (the center button) Scroll down to Mate3(s) enter Scroll down to Data Logging Using the wheel Sd Card Data Logging Mode instead of disabled select [Excell] The write interval is adjustable the default is 5 sec I hope this helps. Take Care Sir From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 5:24 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3 not saving data Hi all, I've inherited a system where the Mate3 is not saving data to the SD card. Has anyone seen this before? In the Mate3 settings, it is set to download data to excel every minute and save the last maximum days. I've tried two different SD cards. I was able to successfully update firmware with the SD card. But there are never any logfiles on there. Any suggestions? Thanks! -Dave Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC [https://www.taitem.com/signatures/logo.png] 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hugh at scoraigwind.co.uk Sat Mar 28 07:10:18 2020 From: hugh at scoraigwind.co.uk (Hugh Piggott) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 11:10:18 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFX produces no output with no error In-Reply-To: <3bcc107d-7355-e31c-c26f-f691942f8521@solarray.com> References: <176bc849-5135-3ace-81c1-891eaf8d4fda@sindelarsolar.com> <45b5da91-6e59-ff46-615a-b8484d982fd1@coveoregon.com> <3bcc107d-7355-e31c-c26f-f691942f8521@solarray.com> Message-ID: <96DC73B1-4BE3-46A5-A7F9-4310387F95BF@scoraigwind.co.uk> Hi All, Just to wrap this one up I can report that the problem was in the control board in this instance, and having replaced this board it is now working again. Thanks for all who helped with advice, especially Jay and Kris. cheers Hugh Hugh Piggott Scoraig Wind Electric Dundonnell Ross shire IV23 2RE, UK +44 77 1315 7600 hugh at scoraigwind.co.uk www.scoraigwind.co.uk > On 9 Mar 2020, at 18:20, Ray wrote: > > We had one last year with a bad relay, the customer had been charging a Tesla EV through it (pass through from the grid) and smoked the relay. It was pretty obvious, the clear relay cover was all covered on the inside with burnt relay bits and smoke coating. > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 3/9/20 12:13 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote: >> >> Hugh, >> I have one at my guest cabin doing the same thing except that the meter on the mate says I have 119 vac but nothing at the AC Out terminal. I think Kent might be right that it may be the AC output relay. It is odd though that there is no error message in your case. This inverter had been tortured by the last tenants of the cabin with bad generators. I was actually going to go up there and check it out some more as it is warm today. No heat in the cabin. >> >> John Blittersdorf >> >> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 1:00 PM Kent Osterberg > wrote: >> Hugh, >> >> I've seen these symptoms before. The problem was a failed output relay on the ac board. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> >> On 3/9/2020 9:25 AM, Hugh Piggott wrote: >>> Hi Wrenches, >>> >>> I wonder if anyone can tell me what is happening here? >>> >>> I have an Outback VFX that I used for my own home from 2006-2018. It’s a 50Hz 240V unit, but similar otherwise to any other 48V VFX. It was working well when disconnected. I needed to replace the inverter system for other reasons. >>> >>> I installed this for a neighbour recently on his 48V system, and it apparently worked when I left the building. >>> >>> Now it’s not working. When “off” it shows a warning for temperatures sensor - fair enough I did not install one. Maybe when it gets connected to a generator it will be found a sensor. This is the only error or fault with a yes. >>> >>> When “on” it makes a reassuring buzz and both lights come up green and there is no error or warning in the Mate. Just one problem - no output. >>> >>> Another weird thing. I go to the status menu and check meters STATUS/FX/METER output voltage and it says “4V”. So it knows that it is not working but it appears to have no qualms or misgivings about this state of affairs. NO error, no warning, two green lights. >>> >>> I tried rebooting with the battery fuse. I tried resetting to factory defaults. No joy. >>> >>> I suppose I will take it to pieces and try to figure out a hardware failure but I wonder if anyone has seen this and can give me a clue? >>> >>> cheers >>> Hugh >>> >>> >>> Hugh Piggott >>> Scoraig Wind Electric >>> Dundonnell >>> Ross shire >>> IV23 2RE, UK >>> +44 77 1315 7600 >>> hugh at scoraigwind.co.uk >>> www.scoraigwind.co.uk >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun Mar 29 10:54:21 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 10:54:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trimetric TM 2020 Message-ID: Does anyone have (or know of) a TM 2020 they would like to sell? I will be looking for the 48 V adapter (TM 48VA)as well. Thank you, Drake -- From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 12:27:02 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 12:27:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trimetric TM 2020 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Drake, Why a 2020 and not the newer version? Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 11:06 AM wrote: > > Does anyone have (or know of) a TM 2020 they would like to sell? I will > be looking for the 48 V adapter (TM 48VA)as well. > > Thank you, > > Drake > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun Mar 29 17:53:27 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 17:53:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trimetric TM 2020 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <82ca7cd2b5a9b85f677c3697dae1b3b7@redwoodalliance.org> The 2030 doesn't have the high and low voltage information, which I need. Any idea why they dropped that feature? --- On 2020-03-29 12:27, Howie Michaelson wrote: > Drake, > Why a 2020 and not the newer version? > Howie > > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(tm) > Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 11:06 AM wrote: > >> Does anyone have (or know of) a TM 2020 they would like to sell? I will >> be looking for the 48 V adapter (TM 48VA)as well. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] Links: ------ [1] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 21:34:44 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 21:34:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trimetric TM 2020 In-Reply-To: <82ca7cd2b5a9b85f677c3697dae1b3b7@redwoodalliance.org> References: <82ca7cd2b5a9b85f677c3697dae1b3b7@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Drake, I just went through the manual in detail, having installed many 2030s over the last few years, but had not realized you are at least in part correct. The 2030 retains high and low voltage for the previous 5 days, but it doesn't retain the absolute high/low voltages from the last reset the way the 2020 did. Not sure of the thinking around that, but I agree, it would be useful to have. Howie On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 7:19 PM wrote: > The 2030 doesn't have the high and low voltage information, which I need. > Any idea why they dropped that feature? > --- > > > > On 2020-03-29 12:27, Howie Michaelson wrote: > > Drake, > Why a 2020 and not the newer version? > Howie > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 11:06 AM > wrote: > > > Does anyone have (or know of) a TM 2020 they would like to sell? I will > be looking for the 48 V adapter (TM 48VA)as well. > > Thank you, > > Drake > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 19:39:27 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 16:39:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] magnum question Message-ID: <07334CFC-AA78-46A9-80A0-B9475CA2A3AF@gmail.com> Hi All, My question is can a single Magnum remote run 2 inverters each as master for 120v? I’ve got a client with a 3 phase generator, and I need two phases, but I don’t need 240v. 1. I can’t change the generator 2. Two phases because I can’t load one phase that heavily. I can do 2 Outback FXR’s each as a master, but I’d need to have 2 Mate3S’s. But I don’t know if magnum has that possiblity? Thanks jay Peltz Power From dana at solarwork.com Wed Apr 1 20:28:05 2020 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 18:28:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] magnum question In-Reply-To: <07334CFC-AA78-46A9-80A0-B9475CA2A3AF@gmail.com> References: <07334CFC-AA78-46A9-80A0-B9475CA2A3AF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003601d60885$94945530$bdbcff90$@solarwork.com> I have been informed [long ago] that not equally weighting a generators output can cause excessive & uneven wear on the windings of a generator. Way Back in the day, folks [old wrenches] used to place an additional load [hot water element, heat lamps...] on the unused leg to balance out a 240 vac gen that was only using one 120v leg for inverter /battery charging on a 240 only generator. Simple but effective though not very fuel thrifty. I am open to dispelling this anecdote/old wife's tale, if anyone can confirm or dispute this. It makes sense to me overall. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 5:39 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] magnum question Hi All, My question is can a single Magnum remote run 2 inverters each as master for 120v? I’ve got a client with a 3 phase generator, and I need two phases, but I don’t need 240v. 1. I can’t change the generator 2. Two phases because I can’t load one phase that heavily. I can do 2 Outback FXR’s each as a master, but I’d need to have 2 Mate3S’s. But I don’t know if magnum has that possiblity? Thanks jay Peltz Power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 21:27:23 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 18:27:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] magnum question In-Reply-To: <003601d60885$94945530$bdbcff90$@solarwork.com> References: <003601d60885$94945530$bdbcff90$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <818D7BEC-8CB1-4D77-9B89-7AA2BD79948D@gmail.com> Hi Dana, That depends on the unit. In my case its a large generator with large loads, the inverters being just one of the loads. I can’t load one phase with 8kw, that would overload one phase. Splitting the load to 2 phases, is within the capacity of the generator and within the total loads I know I can do the inverters the way I want, what I dont know is if you can have 2 x 120v magnum inverters both as master with a single controller. Jay > On Apr 1, 2020, at 5:28 PM, Dana Orzel wrote: > > I have been informed [long ago] that not equally weighting a generators output can cause excessive & uneven wear on the windings of a generator. > Way Back in the day, folks [old wrenches] used to place an additional load [hot water element, heat lamps...] on the unused leg to balance out a 240 vac gen that was only using one 120v leg for inverter /battery charging on a 240 only generator. Simple but effective though not very fuel thrifty. > > I am open to dispelling this anecdote/old wife's tale, if anyone can confirm or dispute this. It makes sense to me overall. > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay > Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 5:39 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] magnum question > > Hi All, > > My question is can a single Magnum remote run 2 inverters each as master for 120v? > > > I’ve got a client with a 3 phase generator, and I need two phases, but I don’t need 240v. > > > 1. I can’t change the generator > 2. Two phases because I can’t load one phase that heavily. > > I can do 2 Outback FXR’s each as a master, but I’d need to have 2 Mate3S’s. > > But I don’t know if magnum has that possiblity? > > Thanks > > jay > > Peltz Power > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From ltuss at outbackpower.com Thu Apr 2 11:46:24 2020 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 15:46:24 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] magnum question In-Reply-To: <07334CFC-AA78-46A9-80A0-B9475CA2A3AF@gmail.com> References: <07334CFC-AA78-46A9-80A0-B9475CA2A3AF@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay The FXR inverters do have the ability to run 2 legs of a 3phase system on a single Mate3(s)and a Hub10.3 Inside the Hub10.3 is a header containing 5 jumpers. These jumpers can be arranged so the inverters are set to a 3 phase configuration. Up to 9 inverters can be used per system, up to 3 inverters per ac phase. Up to 6 inverters can be used with up to 3 inverters per phase on 2 of the ac legs a 3phase system. For more information on the jumper locations see the Hub 10.3 quick start guide. http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/system_management/hub/hub103_quick_start.pdf In a 3 phase system the inverters are programmed as Master, B phase Master, C Phase Master or designated as a Slave inverter. Each Master can control 2 slave inverters. This is further explained in the FXR installation manual. http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/inverter_chargers/fxr_vfxr_a/fxr_install.pdf I hope this helps. Take Care All -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 4:39 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] magnum question Hi All, My question is can a single Magnum remote run 2 inverters each as master for 120v? I’ve got a client with a 3 phase generator, and I need two phases, but I don’t need 240v. 1. I can’t change the generator 2. Two phases because I can’t load one phase that heavily. I can do 2 Outback FXR’s each as a master, but I’d need to have 2 Mate3S’s. But I don’t know if magnum has that possiblity? Thanks jay Peltz Power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=d4abb431-890cfaf3-d4a8bdba-002590870bde-fe8439a98f146def&q=1&e=cc596888-1eac-4ff2-b73a-fe4a7f887cd6&u=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=6fb987e8-321ec92a-6fba8e63-002590870bde-aa16baf4f942a9e8&q=1&e=cc596888-1eac-4ff2-b73a-fe4a7f887cd6&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=744e5f95-29e91157-744d561e-002590870bde-8fb79a89726d0b65&q=1&e=cc596888-1eac-4ff2-b73a-fe4a7f887cd6&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org%2F From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 13:45:12 2020 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 11:45:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trimetric TM 2020 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Drake, I have a TM 2025 I'd sell you for cheap. No shunt or 48v kit. Contact me off list. Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP PV Associate NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:06 AM wrote: > > Does anyone have (or know of) a TM 2020 they would like to sell? I will > be looking for the 48 V adapter (TM 48VA)as well. > > Thank you, > > Drake > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Apr 2 14:31:18 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 11:31:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] magnum question In-Reply-To: <07334CFC-AA78-46A9-80A0-B9475CA2A3AF@gmail.com> References: <07334CFC-AA78-46A9-80A0-B9475CA2A3AF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <412f443b1c277556663f2db223279f5e@mail.gmail.com> Jay: This idea sounds wrong on many levels. Generators are designed to be loaded evenly, with some allowance for normal deviations. Having separate loads that can vary independently is asking for regulation problems. You did not state if the generator was wound Wye or Delta. This makes a difference. Delta wound generators that provide 120/240 have one winding center-tapped. That winding can provide only 1/3 of the rating of the generator (there is some research that says the de-rate is greater). If this is the case, your two inverters can each access only 1/6 of the generator capability. Sure you might be able to draw more than 1/6, for a while... Have you checked to see if the generator can be field re-tapped to provide 120 only? Then you could provide a generator-fed distribution and put all of your 120 loads on it, providing the full generator capability. It has come to my attention recently that two Outback FXR (or FX, I am not sure) inverters can be stacked on two legs of a three-phase input power source. I had thought this was not possible. I know it works because I accidently did this. I believe the supply was Wye configured. It was with a mobile set up built by someone else. The inverters should have been the Mobile version, and maybe this is what made this possible. You just can't use an X240 on this setup. Consider this option if you must unbalance the generator. Try to balance the loads and charging between the inverters and avoid power-save settings (you can't power-save without an X240 anyway). I have had many customers ask me to do something that my intuition told me was a bad idea. When I was younger I might comply, and learn to regret it. Good luck and stay strong. William Miller -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 4:39 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] magnum question Hi All, My question is can a single Magnum remote run 2 inverters each as master for 120v? I’ve got a client with a 3 phase generator, and I need two phases, but I don’t need 240v. 1. I can’t change the generator 2. Two phases because I can’t load one phase that heavily. I can do 2 Outback FXR’s each as a master, but I’d need to have 2 Mate3S’s. But I don’t know if magnum has that possiblity? Thanks jay Peltz Power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 14:05:02 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 11:05:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] magnum question In-Reply-To: <412f443b1c277556663f2db223279f5e@mail.gmail.com> References: <07334CFC-AA78-46A9-80A0-B9475CA2A3AF@gmail.com> <412f443b1c277556663f2db223279f5e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <58875BF3-7016-44E7-9877-38EF62C7AAF0@gmail.com> HI William, I appreciate your time and input as to your thinking about this project. However this system already exists and has been in operation for some time. Client has a offgrid farm with 45kva generator. The situation is that the main house also already runs off this generator, but the generator doesn’t run 24/7/365. The other times of the year they run a honda 6500 at 120/240vac to power the house. The existing infrastructure of the farm is already set up for 120/208 3 phase and it wouldn’t be necessary or wanted to change all that for 7kw of inverters. That all said, I’ll probably run the inverters at 120/240 setup, as the back up generator is 120/240. And when they use the 3 phase generator its on 24 hrs a day. Yes it will only use 1 inverter to battery charge, but given 24 hr charge time, it’ll keep up the batteries no problem. Thanks to all, Jay > On Apr 2, 2020, at 11:31 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Jay: > > This idea sounds wrong on many levels. Generators are designed to be loaded evenly, with some allowance for normal deviations. Having separate loads that can vary independently is asking for regulation problems. > > You did not state if the generator was wound Wye or Delta. This makes a difference. > > Delta wound generators that provide 120/240 have one winding center-tapped. That winding can provide only 1/3 of the rating of the generator (there is some research that says the de-rate is greater). If this is the case, your two inverters can each access only 1/6 of the generator capability. Sure you might be able to draw more than 1/6, for a while... > > Have you checked to see if the generator can be field re-tapped to provide 120 only? Then you could provide a generator-fed distribution and put all of your 120 loads on it, providing the full generator capability. > > It has come to my attention recently that two Outback FXR (or FX, I am not sure) inverters can be stacked on two legs of a three-phase input power source. I had thought this was not possible. I know it works because I accidently did this. I believe the supply was Wye configured. It was with a mobile set up built by someone else. The inverters should have been the Mobile version, and maybe this is what made this possible. You just can't use an X240 on this setup. Consider this option if you must unbalance the generator. Try to balance the loads and charging between the inverters and avoid power-save settings (you can't power-save without an X240 anyway). > > I have had many customers ask me to do something that my intuition told me was a bad idea. When I was younger I might comply, and learn to regret it. Good luck and stay strong. > > William Miller > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of jay > Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 4:39 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] magnum question > > Hi All, > > My question is can a single Magnum remote run 2 inverters each as master for 120v? > > > I’ve got a client with a 3 phase generator, and I need two phases, but I don’t need 240v. > > > 1. I can’t change the generator > 2. Two phases because I can’t load one phase that heavily. > > I can do 2 Outback FXR’s each as a master, but I’d need to have 2 Mate3S’s. > > But I don’t know if magnum has that possiblity? > > Thanks > > jay > > Peltz Power > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lars at cal-solar.com Wed Apr 8 14:32:14 2020 From: lars at cal-solar.com (Lars Ortegren) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 11:32:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover LFP and Sunny Island Integration Message-ID: Wrenches- wondering if there is anyone out there who has integrated the Discover 6.6 batteries with Sunny Islands? They have a card specifically for the SI that plugs into their LYNK communication gateway, but I'm having a nearly impossible time getting any support from the manufacturer, or SMA to answer specific functionality questions. Discover doesn't seem to offer their own tech support pitching support to distributio (seriously?) and SMA though in the German list,because it's not on the US list won't give any support. Specifically if this overwrites internal parameters when selecting "Lilon_ext-BMS". The main concern that I'm trying to figure out is the requirement from Discover for charging to 3.4v per cell, substantially higher than most default settings in the SI. Anyone played this game? -- *Lars Ö* *rtegren*General Manager/Founder/Co Owner lars at cal-solar.com www.californiasolarco.com *Main**:* 530-274-3671 *Fax:* 530-274-7518 -- *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Apr 8 14:51:25 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2020 11:51:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover LFP and Sunny Island Integration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have run the AES battery without any coms in a system that was hit by lightning. The battery survived but there was damage to most of the other equipment that was on. It will work and charge correctly if you can program the exact voltages required. So, no you can't use defaults. The controller or charger in the in inverter needs to be able to program a custom battery. Hope this helps. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 8 Apr 2020 11:32:14 -0700, Lars Ortegren wrote: Wrenches- wondering if there is anyone out there who has integrated the Discover 6.6 batteries with Sunny Islands? They have a card specifically for the SI that plugs into their LYNK communication gateway, but I'm having a nearly impossible time getting any support from the manufacturer, or SMA to answer specific functionality questions. Discover doesn't seem to offer their own tech support pitching support to distributio (seriously?) and SMA though in the German list,because it's not on the US list won't give any support. Specifically if this overwrites internal parameters when selecting "Lilon_ext-BMS". The main concern that I'm trying to figure out is the requirement from Discover for charging to 3.4v per cell, substantially higher than most default settings in the SI. Anyone played this game? -- _ LARS Örtegren General Manager/Founder/Co Owner lars at cal-solar.com [3] www.californiasolarco.com [4] MAIN: 530-274-3671 FAX: 530-274-7518 SHOWROOM LOCATED AT: 149 E MAIN ST. GRASS VALLEY, CA 95945 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:lars at cal-solar.com [4] https://www.californiasolarco.com [5] https://californiasolarco.com/referral_form/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Thu Apr 9 14:45:39 2020 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 11:45:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Single Axis trackers Message-ID: <032501d60e9f$114f31c0$33ed9540$@greenwired.com> Has anyone had any experience with single axis trackers? I am looking to do a job that's about 100kw and trying to see if it would be feasible to look into this as an option or not. What companies have you guys used and what has your experience been with them? Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com Description: signature -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kevin at ecohousesolar.com Thu Apr 9 14:58:00 2020 From: kevin at ecohousesolar.com (Kevin Eigel) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 14:58:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Single Axis trackers In-Reply-To: <032501d60e9f$114f31c0$33ed9540$@greenwired.com> References: <032501d60e9f$114f31c0$33ed9540$@greenwired.com> Message-ID: NexTracker. Kevin Eigel, Owner *ECOHOUSE SOLAR* 1809 O'Brien Rd. Columbus, OH 43228 www.ecohousesolar.com 614-805-5776 (cell) 614-456-7641 (Office) On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 2:51 PM Andrew wrote: > Has anyone had any experience with single axis trackers? I am looking to > do a job that’s about 100kw and trying to see if it would be feasible to > look into this as an option or not. What companies have you guys used and > what has your experience been with them? > > > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > > www.greenwired.com > > [image: Description: signature] > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 15:01:33 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 12:01:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Single Axis trackers In-Reply-To: <032501d60e9f$114f31c0$33ed9540$@greenwired.com> References: <032501d60e9f$114f31c0$33ed9540$@greenwired.com> Message-ID: Andrew I have had very good luck with zoom works, passive tracking no electrical components to fail Jerry NABCEP Solar inspector On Thu, Apr 9, 2020, 11:51 AM Andrew wrote: > Has anyone had any experience with single axis trackers? I am looking to > do a job that’s about 100kw and trying to see if it would be feasible to > look into this as an option or not. What companies have you guys used and > what has your experience been with them? > > > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > > www.greenwired.com > > [image: Description: signature] > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 9 15:20:29 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 12:20:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Single Axis trackers In-Reply-To: <032501d60e9f$114f31c0$33ed9540$@greenwired.com> References: <032501d60e9f$114f31c0$33ed9540$@greenwired.com> Message-ID: If I were to do a big job like that I would use Array Technology. https://arraytechinc.com/solar-trackers/ [1] I use the small brother, a horizontal axis tracker from Wattsun below for offgrid. Really easy to build and no ladders. https://www.wattsun.com/products/accutrak-hzla-tracker [2] Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [4] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 11:45:39 -0700, Andrew wrote: Has anyone had any experience with single axis trackers? I am looking to do a job that's about 100kw and trying to see if it would be feasible to look into this as an option or not. What companies have you guys used and what has your experience been with them? Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com Links: ------ [1] https://arraytechinc.com/solar-trackers/ [2] https://www.wattsun.com/products/accutrak-hzla-tracker [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 15:33:16 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 12:33:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Single Axis trackers In-Reply-To: References: <032501d60e9f$114f31c0$33ed9540$@greenwired.com> Message-ID: Array tech has a older product discontinued issue, when there parts fail they want to sell you a new tracker. I dont care for that much, zomeworks has no parts like that to fail so fewer points of failure is better. On Thu, Apr 9, 2020, 12:27 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > If I were to do a big job like that I would use Array Technology. > > https://arraytechinc.com/solar-trackers/ > > I use the small brother, a horizontal axis tracker from Wattsun below for > offgrid. Really easy to build and no ladders. > > https://www.wattsun.com/products/accutrak-hzla-tracker > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 11:45:39 -0700, Andrew wrote: > > Has anyone had any experience with single axis trackers? I am looking to > do a job that’s about 100kw and trying to see if it would be feasible to > look into this as an option or not. What companies have you guys used and > what has your experience been with them? > > > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > > www.greenwired.com > > [image: Description: signature] > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 18:54:19 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 15:54:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Single Axis trackers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jerry, Zome works is gone. RIP Jay > On Apr 9, 2020, at 12:01 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > >  > Andrew > I have had very good luck with zoom works, passive tracking no electrical components to fail > Jerry > NABCEP Solar inspector > >> On Thu, Apr 9, 2020, 11:51 AM Andrew wrote: >> Has anyone had any experience with single axis trackers? I am looking to do a job that’s about 100kw and trying to see if it would be feasible to look into this as an option or not. What companies have you guys used and what has your experience been with them? >> >> >> >> Andrew Perkins >> >> Greenwired >> >> P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 >> >> 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd >> >> Redway, CA 95560 >> >> www.greenwired.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjleininger at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 19:07:22 2020 From: bjleininger at gmail.com (Bruce Leininger) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 16:07:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Known residential/commercial fires from LI batteries Message-ID: Hi. I was wondering if there are any known instances of fires from residential or commercial storage systems. I'm specifically interested in lithium ion batteries, but would welcome knowledge about lead acid fires as well. Thanks! Bruce -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 19:21:54 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 16:21:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Known residential/commercial fires from LI batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bruce There are several different chemistries, like tires. There has been issues with materials like cobalt, manganese, magnesium and aluminum, used in some battery manufacturing. Phosphate is not an issue as it does not burn. I attached a graph colors are hard to see but this is it. Also if a battery has not a system UL or is fire rated it might be an issue down the road. NABCEP solar inspector Jerry On Thu, Apr 9, 2020, 4:08 PM Bruce Leininger wrote: > Hi. I was wondering if there are any known instances of fires from > residential or commercial storage systems. I'm specifically interested in > lithium ion batteries, but would welcome knowledge about lead acid fires as > well. > > Thanks! > > Bruce > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Characteristic-Comparison-between-Li-ion-family-chemistry-Lead-acid-and-Ultracapacitor.png Type: image/png Size: 110188 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 19:14:38 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 16:14:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Known residential/commercial fires from LI batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI Bruce, There is a lithium fire in the last 2 years in Arizona (APS I think) on a utility scale battery. jay peltz power > On Apr 9, 2020, at 4:07 PM, Bruce Leininger wrote: > > Hi. I was wondering if there are any known instances of fires from residential or commercial storage systems. I'm specifically interested in lithium ion batteries, but would welcome knowledge about lead acid fires as well. > > Thanks! > > Bruce > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 9 19:51:15 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 16:51:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Known residential/commercial fires from LI batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And another battery fire in Fairfield. I tried to find the type but they sound like type NMC lithium used in cars. Let me know if you find the type please. https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/06/08/fairfield-garage-fire-sends-5-first-responders-hospital/ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 16:14:38 -0700, jay wrote: > HI Bruce, > > There is a lithium fire in the last 2 years in Arizona (APS I think) on a > utility scale battery. > > jay > peltz power > > > >> On Apr 9, 2020, at 4:07 PM, Bruce Leininger >> wrote: >> >> Hi. I was wondering if there are any known instances of fires from >> residential or commercial storage systems. I'm specifically interested >> in lithium ion batteries, but would welcome knowledge about lead acid >> fires as well. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Bruce >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 9 19:54:42 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 16:54:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Single Axis trackers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01b54418ad02a6ff6be17dda91690ef1@127.0.0.1> Not surprising Zome is gone. They were a very expensive way, dollars per watt to fill up a 6 or 8 inch pole mount, I thought. Yes RIP Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 15:54:19 -0700, Jay wrote: Hi Jerry, Zome works is gone. RIP Jay On Apr 9, 2020, at 12:01 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Andrew I have had very good luck with zoom works, passive tracking no electrical components to fail Jerry NABCEP Solar inspector On Thu, Apr 9, 2020, 11:51 AM Andrew wrote: Has anyone had any experience with single axis trackers? I am looking to do a job that's about 100kw and trying to see if it would be feasible to look into this as an option or not. What companies have you guys used and what has your experience been with them? Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com [4] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [9] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:andrew at greenwired.com [4] http://www.greenwired.com [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 22:39:09 2020 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 20:39:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Known residential/commercial fires from LI batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, APS had lithium-ion storage battery fires in 2012 and 2019. South Korea had 20(!) such fires in the last 2 years, also fires in Australia and Europe. These were utility scale. I think SF CA had one also, residential scale. I'd be interested in knowing about any more residential incidents for my upcoming safety classes for firefighters and AHJs. The flourine gas generated is particularly nasty. Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP PV Associate NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 8:15 PM jay wrote: > HI Bruce, > > There is a lithium fire in the last 2 years in Arizona (APS I think) on a > utility scale battery. > > jay > peltz power > > > > > On Apr 9, 2020, at 4:07 PM, Bruce Leininger > wrote: > > > > Hi. I was wondering if there are any known instances of fires from > residential or commercial storage systems. I'm specifically interested in > lithium ion batteries, but would welcome knowledge about lead acid fires as > well. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Bruce > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjleininger at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:15:59 2020 From: bjleininger at gmail.com (Bruce Leininger) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 14:15:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Known residential/commercial fires from LI batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: According to this article , they were electric bike batteries. So far, I haven't discovered any reports from this country about fires associated with residential or commercial energy storage systems, only utility scale . Please feel free to share any additional information you might come across. Thanks. Bruce On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 7:32 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > And another battery fire in Fairfield. I tried to find the type but they > sound like type NMC lithium used in cars. Let me know if you find the type > please. > > > https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/06/08/fairfield-garage-fire-sends-5-first-responders-hospital/ > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 16:14:38 -0700, jay wrote: > > HI Bruce, > > > > There is a lithium fire in the last 2 years in Arizona (APS I think) on > a > > utility scale battery. > > > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > > > >> On Apr 9, 2020, at 4:07 PM, Bruce Leininger > >> wrote: > >> > >> Hi. I was wondering if there are any known instances of fires from > >> residential or commercial storage systems. I'm specifically interested > >> in lithium ion batteries, but would welcome knowledge about lead acid > >> fires as well. > >> > >> Thanks! > >> > >> Bruce > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:42:01 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:42:01 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Known residential/commercial fires from LI batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bruce Wrenches There was again a utility scale battery fire in Hawaii in around 2014 that was fire department said they would not attempt to extinguish because of the water run off would be very toxic and refused and instead only prevented the fire from spreading, I was told it was so hot and bright it could be seen from space. Jerry On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 11:16 AM Bruce Leininger wrote: > According to this article > , > they were electric bike batteries. So far, I haven't discovered any > reports from this country about fires associated with residential or > commercial energy storage systems, only utility scale > . > Please feel free to share any additional information you might come across. > > Thanks. > > Bruce > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 7:32 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > >> And another battery fire in Fairfield. I tried to find the type but they >> sound like type NMC lithium used in cars. Let me know if you find the type >> please. >> >> >> https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/06/08/fairfield-garage-fire-sends-5-first-responders-hospital/ >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 16:14:38 -0700, jay wrote: >> > HI Bruce, >> > >> > There is a lithium fire in the last 2 years in Arizona (APS I think) on >> a >> > utility scale battery. >> > >> > jay >> > peltz power >> > >> > >> > >> >> On Apr 9, 2020, at 4:07 PM, Bruce Leininger >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi. I was wondering if there are any known instances of fires from >> >> residential or commercial storage systems. I'm specifically interested >> >> in lithium ion batteries, but would welcome knowledge about lead acid >> >> fires as well. >> >> >> >> Thanks! >> >> >> >> Bruce >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: >> >> >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Sat Apr 11 12:47:36 2020 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 12:47:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] advice on cellular modem brands Message-ID: G'Day All, I'm in search of advice on the different brand/models of cellular modems ya'll have been having good luck with these days when it comes to monitoring something basic like an OutBack Mate3s via Optics RE. What I've found thus far is from a company called MoFi Networks. They offer a unit 4G, for around $320 that requires the end user/client to purchase a sim card w/ hotspot enabled from their local cell carrier whether it be AT&T, Verison or T-mobile. The one note on purchasing from a carrier is that they can throttle you down if you use too much data, which I can't imagine the Outback or any other monitoring apparatus would hit. Now if the client decided to stream movies that's a different story and falls on their shoulders. I was told that you can purchase a sim card from a third party that for reasons I don't begin to understand can't be throttled down by the national carriers. Anyway I'd love to hear back from my peers on brands that you've tried, trued and tested. Happy Easter and Passover to All, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Apr 11 13:07:46 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 10:07:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] advice on cellular modem brands In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8943dff8813305ffae42f6340ddb0cda@127.0.0.1> G'Day, I use Cradlepoint and have for too many years. I mainly use schneider combox with it for a few clients. The introduction of the gateway has made the data usage go way down as the software is better at minimizing the packets. Packets is probably the wrong word. I am not sure how much Optics uses from the mate3 but I would think the latest version of Optics would be better. It can be easier to just avoid the web (insight2) for me to monitor a power system and go into mate3 like I do with combox/gateway. It depends on what you need and the system owner. They can all be different. It is nice to see them all in one place on the web also. The distance to the site and owner savvy often drives all of this.. Hope this helps. Are you an Aussie in New York? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 12:47:36 -0400, Chris Schaefer wrote: G'Day All, I'm in search of advice on the different brand/models of cellular modems ya'll have been having good luck with these days when it comes to monitoring something basic like an OutBack Mate3s via Optics RE. What I've found thus far is from a company called MoFi Networks. They offer a unit 4G, for around $320 that requires the end user/client to purchase a sim card w/ hotspot enabled from their local cell carrier whether it be AT color: #1f497d;">Chris Schaefer's [3] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 _www.solarandwindfx.com [4] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [5]_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://webmail.sti.net/http:www.solarandwindfx.com [4] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [5] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Sat Apr 11 16:08:09 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 16:08:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] advice on cellular modem brands In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just did the exact same thing using a Verizion Jetpack. Works quite well transmitting both Mate3s and Blue Ion egauge data simultaneously. Trouble is it does not have a LAN port, wifi only, so I had to use a Netgear wall repeater with  a port, along with an ethernet switch to plug everything into. And I could use any pointers on how to create the LAN port with less hassle. I don't know of any Verizon-compatible modem with a built-in LAN port. Also why doesn't the Mate3s and other OEMs use wifi in their products? Very few do. It is 2020 after all. On 4/11/2020 12:47:49 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: G'Day All, I'm in search of advice on the different brand/models of cellular modems ya'll have been having good luck with these days when it comes to monitoring something basic like an OutBack Mate3s via Optics RE. What I've found thus far is from a company called MoFi Networks. They offer a unit 4G, for around $320 that requires the end user/client to purchase a sim card w/ hotspot enabled from their local cell carrier whether it be AT&T, Verison or T-mobile. The one note on purchasing from a carrier is that they can throttle you down if you use too much data, which I can't imagine the Outback or any other monitoring apparatus would hit. Now if the client decided to stream movies that's a different story and falls on their shoulders. I was told that you can purchase a sim card from a third party that for reasons I don't begin to understand can't be throttled down by the national carriers. Anyway I'd love to hear back from my peers on brands that you've tried, trued and tested. Happy Easter and Passover to All, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s [http:www.solarandwindfx.com] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com [http://www.solarandwindfx.com] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com] Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Sun Apr 12 07:42:07 2020 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jefferson Jarvis) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 06:42:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] advice on cellular modem brands In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <185e7eeb-525b-cba5-af7f-2b262c4a37b4@aprsworld.com> The non-consumer grade units will have wired ethernet ports. My favorite is the Sierra Wireless RV50X. It is rock solid stable and uses less than 1 watt of power. https://www.sierrawireless.com/products-and-solutions/routers-gateways/rv50/ The problem I have run into with the JetPacks and the like is that they are consumer orientated and expect to have somebody there to poke and prod them when required. I had a 450 mile service trip to an island so I could press "okay" on the screen to acknowledge that it had updated. Then it returned back to normal service. For another customer, a cell phone company at their cell tower, they suggested that we hard cycle the power every 24 hours to prevent crashes. Why don't OEMs include WiFi? It's a support nightmare. You either need another screen on the device just to setup WiFi or you need convoluted instructions and apps for both iPhone and Android. And then it works fine until somebody changes the wireless credentials and then its back to the convoluted setup again. -James Jarvis APRS World, LLC On 4/11/20 3:08 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > Just did the exact same thing using a Verizion Jetpack. Works quite well > transmitting both Mate3s and Blue Ion egauge data simultaneously. > Trouble is it does not have a LAN port, wifi only, so I had to use a > Netgear wall repeater with  a port, along with an ethernet switch to > plug everything into. > > And I could use any pointers on how to create the LAN port with less > hassle. I don't know of any Verizon-compatible modem with a built-in LAN > port. > Also why doesn't the Mate3s and other OEMs use wifi in their products? > Very few do. It is 2020 after all. From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Apr 12 11:20:53 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 08:20:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] advice on cellular modem brands In-Reply-To: <185e7eeb-525b-cba5-af7f-2b262c4a37b4@aprsworld.com> References: <185e7eeb-525b-cba5-af7f-2b262c4a37b4@aprsworld.com> Message-ID: <260487a06954d7a9498b87a49bb45eec@127.0.0.1> The Conext gateway is wifi and the whole conext power system is Wifi accessible. I guess the question really is to me, when will Outback do this? I use both and do like having both wired ethernet and wifi. Just more redundancy offgrid. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 06:42:07 -0500, James Jefferson Jarvis wrote: > The non-consumer grade units will have wired ethernet ports. My favorite > is the Sierra Wireless RV50X. It is rock solid stable and uses less than > 1 watt of power. > > https://www.sierrawireless.com/products-and-solutions/routers-gateways/rv50/ > > The problem I have run into with the JetPacks and the like is that they > are consumer orientated and expect to have somebody there to poke and > prod them when required. I had a 450 mile service trip to an island so I > could press "okay" on the screen to acknowledge that it had updated. > Then it returned back to normal service. For another customer, a cell > phone company at their cell tower, they suggested that we hard cycle the > power every 24 hours to prevent crashes. > > Why don't OEMs include WiFi? It's a support nightmare. You either need > another screen on the device just to setup WiFi or you need convoluted > instructions and apps for both iPhone and Android. And then it works > fine until somebody changes the wireless credentials and then its back > to the convoluted setup again. > > -James Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > > > On 4/11/20 3:08 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: >> Just did the exact same thing using a Verizion Jetpack. Works quite well >> transmitting both Mate3s and Blue Ion egauge data simultaneously. >> Trouble is it does not have a LAN port, wifi only, so I had to use a >> Netgear wall repeater with  a port, along with an ethernet switch to >> plug everything into. >> >> And I could use any pointers on how to create the LAN port with less >> hassle. I don't know of any Verizon-compatible modem with a built-in LAN >> port. >> Also why doesn't the Mate3s and other OEMs use wifi in their products? >> Very few do. It is 2020 after all. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 14:15:10 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 12:15:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] advice on cellular modem brands In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Solving the problem of having Wifi available and needing ethernet (LAN) ports is easy and cheap. You can get a device like this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00VVHONRM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 There are many examples. These extenders/access points/routers give typically give you LAN ports to use. I try to keep something like this on the truck. You can also use ethernet over power, to move signals fairly far through power lines. Sometimes the bigger hassle is to supply the power outlet near where you need the Ethernet port. Its definitely nice to have them built in, as is getting more common. On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 5:06 PM Kirk Herander wrote: > Just did the exact same thing using a Verizion Jetpack. Works quite well > transmitting both Mate3s and Blue Ion egauge data simultaneously. Trouble > is it does not have a LAN port, wifi only, so I had to use a Netgear wall > repeater with a port, along with an ethernet switch to plug everything > into. > > And I could use any pointers on how to create the LAN port with less > hassle. I don't know of any Verizon-compatible modem with a built-in LAN > port. > Also why doesn't the Mate3s and other OEMs use wifi in their products? > Very few do. It is 2020 after all. > > On 4/11/2020 12:47:49 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > G'Day All, > > I'm in search of advice on the different brand/models of cellular > modems ya'll have been having good luck with these days when it comes to > monitoring something basic like an OutBack Mate3s via Optics RE. > > What I've found thus far is from a company called MoFi Networks. They > offer a unit 4G, for around $320 that requires the end user/client to > purchase a sim card w/ hotspot enabled from their local cell carrier > whether it be AT&T, Verison or T-mobile. The one note on purchasing from a > carrier is that they can throttle you down if you use too much data, which > I can't imagine the Outback or any other monitoring apparatus would hit. > Now if the client decided to stream movies that's a different story and > falls on their shoulders. I was told that you can purchase a sim card from > a third party that for reasons I don't begin to understand can't be > throttled down by the national carriers. > > Anyway I'd love to hear back from my peers on brands that you've > tried, trued and tested. > > Happy Easter and Passover to All, > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood > Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change > listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or > update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Apr 13 16:18:02 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 13:18:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 250KW-500KW Off-grid Inverters? In-Reply-To: <7f0a8250-e941-0b0a-e0a7-ef7e5dd6c021@villagelab.net> References: <7f0a8250-e941-0b0a-e0a7-ef7e5dd6c021@villagelab.net> Message-ID: <963fb0d9-aaad-b526-d2dc-03cd5b8df111@villagepowerdesign.com> Hey There Esteemed Wrenches, Okay so hospitals all over the world are clambering for battery-inverter systems and now with potential international funding not available before.  Goal is to replace diesel and higher reliability - we'll add solar later as we go. But most medical clinics and small hospitals in the developing world are needing 100KW-500 KW systems. I'm aware of the Dynapower Inverters out of S. Burlington Vermont- they offer a 500KW, a 250 KW and a 125 KW at 800-1500 VDC and 480 and 600 VAC 3 ph. Anyone have direct experience with them? What other alternatives should we consider? Thanks! Jeff -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Mon Apr 13 16:37:12 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 16:37:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 250KW-500KW Off-grid Inverters? In-Reply-To: <963fb0d9-aaad-b526-d2dc-03cd5b8df111@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <7f0a8250-e941-0b0a-e0a7-ef7e5dd6c021@villagelab.net> <963fb0d9-aaad-b526-d2dc-03cd5b8df111@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Delta inverters with Blue ion and/or  Dellta's own battery pack. On 4/13/2020 4:18:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hey There Esteemed Wrenches, Okay so hospitals all over the world are clambering for battery-inverter systems and now with potential international funding not available before.  Goal is to replace diesel and higher reliability - we'll add solar later as we go. But most medical clinics and small hospitals in the developing world are needing 100KW-500 KW systems. I'm aware of the Dynapower Inverters out of S. Burlington Vermont- they offer a 500KW, a 250 KW and a 125 KW at 800-1500 VDC and 480 and 600 VAC 3 ph. Anyone have direct experience with them? What other alternatives should we consider? Thanks! Jeff -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/] www.villagepowerdesign.com [http://www.villagepowerdesign.com] cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Apr 13 18:16:59 2020 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 15:16:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Known residential/commercial fires from LI batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Bruce, I think my experience may be helpful to you. The only Lithium battery chemistry that we sell is LFP or LFMP, both use Li Iron Phosphate for the cathode. We have sold many hundreds of Li battery systems since 2013 and there have been no fires reported to us. Our customers include off grid, marine and RV use, industrial such as pipeline SCADA controls, law enforcement agencies and more. So we have a broad range of customers and applications. This chemistry is considered “safer” than others for a number of reasons. I recommend you study the report from "The Fire Protection Research Foundation" here: https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/News-and-Research/Fire-statistics-and-reports/Hazardous-materials/rflithiumionbatterieshazard.ashx I'm in no way saying that LFP is always safe but with a well designed management system, I believe they are safer than any flooded LA battery and the least likely to cause a fire. A few years ago, I was privy to see destructive tests performed on 2 of the 3 brands that we offer. In the tests, battery cells (with no BMS or EMS) were charged far over recommended voltage, stabbed with spikes at low speed and by high speed impact, crushed in a press, and in one case shot with 12 gauge shotgun. The results were always an exothermic release of heat and steam or smoke but no flames. The results are similar to this comparison video showing NMC cells (extreme thermal event) and LFP cells heating up. https://youtu.be/bnzxrnS0JkE ANY Li battery being sold without charge protection below freezing is potentially dangerous. There are batteries being sold with only a brief warning message or mention in the manual. Instead they should all have active charge protection. What if the user accidentally charged a frozen Li battery? Depending on current and temperature, Li plating leading to dendrite formation will occur. This is a dangerous condition that can continue growth and lead to thermal runaway at any time, even long after the damage occurred. Some of you are installing these batteries. Don’t ask me to name a brand, just study the product you use…for everyones good. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 9, 2020, at 4:07 PM, Bruce Leininger wrote: Hi. I was wondering if there are any known instances of fires from residential or commercial storage systems. I'm specifically interested in lithium ion batteries, but would welcome knowledge about lead acid fires as well. Thanks! Bruce -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 1380 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dkatz at backwoodssolar.com Mon Apr 13 19:04:23 2020 From: dkatz at backwoodssolar.com (David Katz) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 16:04:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 250KW-500KW Off-grid Inverters? In-Reply-To: References: <7f0a8250-e941-0b0a-e0a7-ef7e5dd6c021@villagelab.net> <963fb0d9-aaad-b526-d2dc-03cd5b8df111@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: If you are working in Africa, Asia, or Europe the AC output is 380-400 3-phase or 230 1-phase without the 120V center tap. If you are working on a country that used to be a puppet government of the USA it will be 120, 240 480 etc. David Katz On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 1:37 PM Kirk Herander wrote: > Delta inverters with Blue ion and/or Dellta's own battery pack. > > On 4/13/2020 4:18:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > Hey There Esteemed Wrenches, > > Okay so hospitals all over the world are clambering for battery-inverter > systems and now with potential international funding not available before. > Goal is to replace diesel and higher reliability - we'll add solar later as > we go. > > But most medical clinics and small hospitals in the developing world are > needing 100KW-500 KW systems. > > I'm aware of the Dynapower Inverters out of S. Burlington Vermont- they > offer a 500KW, a 250 KW and a 125 KW at 800-1500 VDC and 480 and 600 VAC 3 > ph. > > Anyone have direct experience with them? > > What other alternatives should we consider? > > Thanks! > > Jeff > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Mon Apr 13 23:32:28 2020 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 03:32:28 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] advice on cellular modem brands In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6858f105ddc046b6a770ad72e71a09d3@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Hi Christopher, After messing about with various, lower cost, consumer-type units that always seemed to need rebooting or otherwise fiddling with, we have standardized using the GE MDS Orbit modems. They are industrial grade with a steeper learning curve for setup and programming. Once up and running, they have been very solid. Lots of powerful software features. We buy through a local industrial radio company. https://www.gegridsolutions.com/Communications/CellularSolutions.htm Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer Sent: April-11-20 9:48 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] advice on cellular modem brands G'Day All, I'm in search of advice on the different brand/models of cellular modems ya'll have been having good luck with these days when it comes to monitoring something basic like an OutBack Mate3s via Optics RE. What I've found thus far is from a company called MoFi Networks. They offer a unit 4G, for around $320 that requires the end user/client to purchase a sim card w/ hotspot enabled from their local cell carrier whether it be AT&T, Verison or T-mobile. The one note on purchasing from a carrier is that they can throttle you down if you use too much data, which I can't imagine the Outback or any other monitoring apparatus would hit. Now if the client decided to stream movies that's a different story and falls on their shoulders. I was told that you can purchase a sim card from a third party that for reasons I don't begin to understand can't be throttled down by the national carriers. Anyway I'd love to hear back from my peers on brands that you've tried, trued and tested. Happy Easter and Passover to All, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s [http://www.solarandwindfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Solar-Wind-FX-Logo.png] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [http://solarandwindfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/certs.jpg] Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 23:29:14 2020 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 21:29:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 250KW-500KW Off-grid Inverters? In-Reply-To: References: <7f0a8250-e941-0b0a-e0a7-ef7e5dd6c021@villagelab.net> <963fb0d9-aaad-b526-d2dc-03cd5b8df111@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Jeff, This has a little info on many of the global players , including some that have products in the capacity range you refer to. I'm not sure how much the full report costs. Sunpower also has a product. For commercial-scale LFP battery systems you might want to look at Powin Energy out of Portland, OR. They're expanding from utility-only into the commercial realm and offer competitive pricing, and have experience with various mid-size hybrid inverters. Regards, Andrew Truitt www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in this message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 5:04 PM David Katz wrote: > If you are working in Africa, Asia, or Europe the AC output is 380-400 > 3-phase or 230 1-phase without the 120V center tap. > If you are working on a country that used to be a puppet government of the > USA it will be 120, 240 480 etc. > David Katz > > On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 1:37 PM Kirk Herander wrote: > >> Delta inverters with Blue ion and/or Dellta's own battery pack. >> >> On 4/13/2020 4:18:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater >> wrote: >> Hey There Esteemed Wrenches, >> >> Okay so hospitals all over the world are clambering for battery-inverter >> systems and now with potential international funding not available before. >> Goal is to replace diesel and higher reliability - we'll add solar later as >> we go. >> >> But most medical clinics and small hospitals in the developing world are >> needing 100KW-500 KW systems. >> >> I'm aware of the Dynapower Inverters out of S. Burlington Vermont- they >> offer a 500KW, a 250 KW and a 125 KW at 800-1500 VDC and 480 and 600 VAC 3 >> ph. >> >> Anyone have direct experience with them? >> >> What other alternatives should we consider? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Jeff >> >> -- >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> linkedin >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> cell - 413-559-9763 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Tue Apr 14 09:52:24 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 09:52:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] advice on cellular modem brands In-Reply-To: <6858f105ddc046b6a770ad72e71a09d3@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <6858f105ddc046b6a770ad72e71a09d3@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: Another option Is the Novatel T1114 4g modem with voice. Verizon used to sell them as their brand, just don't support them any more. You can find them both new and used online. They do have ethernet ports, which interests me the most. They will work by using the SIM card from other devices (jet pack, cell phone, etc.) at least for Verizon. Don't know about other carriers. On 4/13/2020 11:53:25 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: Hi Christopher,   After messing about with various, lower cost, consumer-type units that always seemed to need rebooting or otherwise fiddling with, we have standardized using the GE MDS Orbit modems. They are industrial grade with a steeper learning curve for setup and programming. Once up and running, they have been very solid. Lots of powerful software features. We buy through a local industrial radio company.   https://www.gegridsolutions.com/Communications/CellularSolutions.htm [https://www.gegridsolutions.com/Communications/CellularSolutions.htm]   Kevin   From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer Sent: April-11-20 9:48 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] advice on cellular modem brands   G'Day All,   I'm in search of advice on the different brand/models of cellular modems ya'll have been having good luck with these days when it comes to monitoring something basic like an OutBack Mate3s via Optics RE.   What I've found thus far is from a company called MoFi Networks. They offer a unit 4G, for around $320 that requires the end user/client to purchase a sim card w/ hotspot enabled from their local cell carrier whether it be AT&T, Verison or T-mobile. The one note on purchasing from a carrier is that they can throttle you down if you use too much data, which I can't imagine the Outback or any other monitoring apparatus would hit. Now if the client decided to stream movies that's a different story and falls on their shoulders. I was told that you can purchase a sim card from a third party that for reasons I don't begin to understand can't be throttled down by the national carriers.   Anyway I'd love to hear back from my peers on brands that you've tried, trued and tested.   Happy Easter and Passover to All, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s [http://www.solarandwindfx.com] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870  5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com [http://www.solarandwindfx.com] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com] Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Apr 14 10:45:44 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 07:45:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] advice on cellular modem brands In-Reply-To: References: <6858f105ddc046b6a770ad72e71a09d3@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: <23accb9c3c6dda7187d075e179e213ed@127.0.0.1> I just logged on to the Cradlepoint that I installed 4 years ago. I have not been to the site since then. In the picture it is sitting on an Iron Edison LFP driving an xw system. Full WiFi, ethernet out to the cell provider. Bullet proof reliable for 4 years. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 09:52:24 -0400, Kirk Herander wrote: Another option Is the Novatel T1114 4g modem with voice. Verizon used to sell them as their brand, just don't support them any more. You can find them both new and used online. They do have ethernet ports, which interests me the most. They will work by using the SIM card from other devices (jet pack, cell phone, etc.) at least for Verizon. Don't know about other carriers. On 4/13/2020 11:53:25 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: Hi Christopher, After messing about with various, lower cost, consumer-type units that always seemed to need rebooting or otherwise fiddling with, we have standardized using the GE MDS Orbit modems. They are industrial grade with a steeper learning curve for setup and programming. Once up and running, they have been very solid. Lots of powerful software features. We buy through a local industrial radio company. https://www.gegridsolutions.com/Communications/CellularSolutions.htm [3] Kevin FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] ON BEHALF OF Chris Schaefer SENT: April-11-20 9:48 AM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] advice on cellular modem brands G'Day All, I'm in search of advice on the different brand/models of cellular modems ya'll have been having good luck with these days when it comes to monitoring something basic like an OutBack Mate3s via Optics RE. What I've found thus far is from a company called MoFi Networks. They offer a unit 4G, for around $320 that requires the end user/client to purchase a sim card w/ hotspot enabled from their local cell carrier whether it be AT">Chris Schaefer's [4] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com [5] ~ E-mail: _chris at solarandwindfx.com [6]_ __ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://www.gegridsolutions.com/Communications/CellularSolutions.htm [4] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [5] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [6] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Cradle.PNG Type: image/png Size: 642499 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Apr 16 16:03:11 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 16:03:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex MPPT 80 600 Not Showing Up in SCP Message-ID: I am working with a client (not my install) with a XW6048 and MPPT 80 600 with a SCP. The SCP is not showing the MPPT in the setup menu. I am able to access the system settings and XW configuration, but not the MPPT settings. It is connected via Xanbus in this manner: SCP -> MPPT -> XW So the MPPT is in the middle and is passing through the XW signal just fine. The MPPT also has a red error light illuminated, but it is charging the battery (positive current measured via clamp meter). Any ideas? Thanks, Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 16:10:11 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 13:10:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex MPPT 80 600 Not Showing Up in SCP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8A79C4B0-93DC-4C2B-B033-9934D1B2C3EE@gmail.com> Hi Jason, Have you rebooted it? I’ve found that usually unplugging and replugging and possibly turning the CC on/off works. Jay Peltz Power > On Apr 16, 2020, at 1:03 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >  > I am working with a client (not my install) with a XW6048 and MPPT 80 600 with a SCP. The SCP is not showing the MPPT in the setup menu. I am able to access the system settings and XW configuration, but not the MPPT settings. It is connected via Xanbus in this manner: > > SCP -> MPPT -> XW > > So the MPPT is in the middle and is passing through the XW signal just fine. > > The MPPT also has a red error light illuminated, but it is charging the battery (positive current measured via clamp meter). > > Any ideas? > > Thanks, > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 16 16:15:40 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 13:15:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex MPPT 80 600 Not Showing Up in SCP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, I would start with the easiest thing first. Since there is not a device you cant see faults and warnings. disconnect xanbus at mppt. power down (and disco HV input) for 30 seconds. Repower and see if the warning light goes out? If mppt does not get found on SCP, I would reset mppt to factory defaults. go into advanced settings mode with just the SCP and mppt. Hopefully mppt is on the list. If you have different symptoms, post later. Will try and check before happy hour Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 16 Apr 2020 16:03:11 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: I am working with a client (not my install) with a XW6048 and MPPT 80 600 with a SCP. The SCP is not showing the MPPT in the setup menu. I am able to access the system settings and XW configuration, but not the MPPT settings. It is connected via Xanbus in this manner: SCP -> MPPT -> XW So the MPPT is in the middle and is passing through the XW signal just fine. The MPPT also has a red error light illuminated, but it is charging the battery (positive current measured via clamp meter). Any ideas? Thanks, Jason Szumlanski Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Apr 16 17:59:08 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 17:59:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex MPPT 80 600 Not Showing Up in SCP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I tried all that. Totally disconnected everything, let it rest, reconnected. Nothing. How would I reset to factory defaults if it's not found in the SCP? On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 4:36 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Hi Jason, > > I would start with the easiest thing first. Since there is not a device > you cant see faults and warnings. disconnect xanbus at mppt. power down > (and disco HV input) for 30 seconds. Repower and see if the warning light > goes out? If mppt does not get found on SCP, > > I would reset mppt to factory defaults. go into advanced settings mode > with just the SCP and mppt. Hopefully mppt is on the list. > > If you have different symptoms, post later. Will try and check before > happy hour > > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 16 Apr 2020 16:03:11 -0400, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > I am working with a client (not my install) with a XW6048 and MPPT 80 600 > with a SCP. The SCP is not showing the MPPT in the setup menu. I am able to > access the system settings and XW configuration, but not the MPPT settings. > It is connected via Xanbus in this manner: > > SCP -> MPPT -> XW > > So the MPPT is in the middle and is passing through the XW signal just > fine. > > The MPPT also has a red error light illuminated, but it is charging the > battery (positive current measured via clamp meter). > > Any ideas? > > Thanks, > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Apr 16 18:00:26 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 18:00:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex MPPT 80 600 Not Showing Up in SCP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I tried swapping the cables for the XW and MPPT. After reboot the XW continued to show up on the SCP but the MPPT did not. I didn't have another cable, but this suggests the cable is not the problem. I didn't think to change the order, however. On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 5:57 PM Jeff Clearwater wrote: > Hey Jason, > > I had a SCP xanbus system once that refused to show a component - The fix > was replacing the cheap ethernet wires that schneider provided with better > cables and/or changing the order of the components in the series comm > string. not sure which did it as I did both changes at once but I do > suspect those white cables. > > Best, > > Jeff > > Jason Szumlanski wrote on 4/16/20 1:03 PM: > > I am working with a client (not my install) with a XW6048 and MPPT 80 600 > with a SCP. The SCP is not showing the MPPT in the setup menu. I am able to > access the system settings and XW configuration, but not the MPPT settings. > It is connected via Xanbus in this manner: > > SCP -> MPPT -> XW > > So the MPPT is in the middle and is passing through the XW signal just > fine. > > The MPPT also has a red error light illuminated, but it is charging the > battery (positive current measured via clamp meter). > > Any ideas? > > Thanks, > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > VillageLab > Village Power Design > linkedin > > www.villagelab.net > > www.villagepowerdesign.com > > skype - jclearwater > zoom by request > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Thu Apr 16 21:01:43 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 18:01:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex MPPT 80 600 Not Showing Up in SCP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When I did my cable swap and reconfiguration that fixed it I also was more careful to route the xanbus cables away from the batter/inverter cables - thinking that perhaps induction was the culprit.  As I have an rj45 crimp tool and some shielded CAT5e in the truck I think I'll just make up my own cables in the future after spending way more time than that troubleshooting. Best of luck! jc Jason Szumlanski wrote on 4/16/20 3:00 PM: > I tried swapping the cables for the XW and MPPT. After reboot the XW > continued to show up on the SCP but the MPPT did not. I didn't have > another cable, but this suggests the cable is not the problem. I > didn't think to change the order, however. > > * > > * > > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 5:57 PM Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > > Hey Jason, > > I had a SCP xanbus system once that refused to show a component - > The fix was replacing the cheap ethernet wires that schneider > provided with better cables and/or changing the order of the > components in the series comm string.  not sure which did it as I > did both changes at once but I do suspect those white cables. > > Best, > > Jeff > > Jason Szumlanski wrote on 4/16/20 1:03 PM: >> I am working with a client (not my install) with a XW6048 and >> MPPT 80 600 with a SCP. The SCP is not showing the MPPT in the >> setup menu. I am able to access the system settings and XW >> configuration, but not the MPPT settings. It is connected via >> Xanbus in this manner: >> >> SCP -> MPPT -> XW >> >> So the MPPT is in the middle and is passing through the XW >> signal just fine. >> >> The MPPT also has a red error light illuminated, but it is >> charging the battery (positive current measured via clamp meter). >> >> Any ideas? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> * >> >> * >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > VillageLab > Village Power Design > linkedin > > > www.villagelab.net > > www.villagepowerdesign.com > > skype - jclearwater > zoom by request > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jfokbgnihnjknhfn.gif Type: image/gif Size: 42 bytes Desc: not available URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 00:28:33 2020 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 23:28:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Industry Publications Message-ID: Wrenches, Like myself, I imagine many folks on this list were avid readers of "Home Power" and "SolarPro" magazines. I know some of you were even active contributors to these two wonderful publications. Is anyone aware of any similar resources - geared toward system designers/installers/technicians (or just general enthusiasts)? Besides this list, where are Wrenches turning to nowadays for relevant discussion of current industry topics? -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Apr 17 06:06:13 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 06:06:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex MPPT 80 600 Not Showing Up in SCP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the tips. I'll do some more tinkering next time. It's a solid 90 minutes from my office so I'm not sure when I'll make it back. I need to tie it in with another service call in the area to make it work. On Thu, Apr 16, 2020, 9:01 PM Jeff Clearwater wrote: > When I did my cable swap and reconfiguration that fixed it I also was more > careful to route the xanbus cables away from the batter/inverter cables - > thinking that perhaps induction was the culprit. As I have an rj45 crimp > tool and some shielded CAT5e in the truck I think I'll just make up my own > cables in the future after spending way more time than that troubleshooting. > > Best of luck! > > jc > > Jason Szumlanski wrote on 4/16/20 3:00 PM: > > I tried swapping the cables for the XW and MPPT. After reboot the XW > continued to show up on the SCP but the MPPT did not. I didn't have another > cable, but this suggests the cable is not the problem. I didn't think to > change the order, however. > > > > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 5:57 PM Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > >> Hey Jason, >> >> I had a SCP xanbus system once that refused to show a component - The fix >> was replacing the cheap ethernet wires that schneider provided with better >> cables and/or changing the order of the components in the series comm >> string. not sure which did it as I did both changes at once but I do >> suspect those white cables. >> >> Best, >> >> Jeff >> >> Jason Szumlanski wrote on 4/16/20 1:03 PM: >> >> I am working with a client (not my install) with a XW6048 and MPPT 80 600 >> with a SCP. The SCP is not showing the MPPT in the setup menu. I am able to >> access the system settings and XW configuration, but not the MPPT settings. >> It is connected via Xanbus in this manner: >> >> SCP -> MPPT -> XW >> >> So the MPPT is in the middle and is passing through the XW signal just >> fine. >> >> The MPPT also has a red error light illuminated, but it is charging the >> battery (positive current measured via clamp meter). >> >> Any ideas? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -- >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Jeff Clearwater >> VillageLab >> Village Power Design >> linkedin >> >> www.villagelab.net >> >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> >> skype - jclearwater >> zoom by request >> cell - 413-559-9763 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jfokbgnihnjknhfn.gif Type: image/gif Size: 42 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jfokbgnihnjknhfn.gif Type: image/gif Size: 42 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 09:14:51 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 07:14:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rectifier Message-ID: Hi wrenches, I've got a architect client with a sub-optimal power situation on one of the projects he is working on. I'm running through a couple of scenarios that may work. Its a ADU (accessory dwelling unit) that is about 1100' from power. The farmer had taken it upon himself to bury some 4/0 a few years ago to run power out there. Voltage drop is the big issue and its not going to pass the AHJ inspection. We could just ditch the grid and go off-grid, but it seems like a shame to not tap into the grid resource. Instead of dealing with the voltage drop, I was thinking it may make sense to rectify that low AC voltage input and parallel a smallish battery bank (size is yet to be determined), then use an off-grid inverter to serve the loads at good voltage. I am looking for feedback on this concept. What do you think? Also, are there any recommendations for good quality rectifiers with wide input voltage window? Thanks in advance for your help -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Apr 17 09:26:56 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:26:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rectifier In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <913CD7D8-CB19-4C3C-9B1A-DDBDA412764E@swnl.net> Whats the voltage required/current? > On Apr 17, 2020, at 9:14 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi wrenches, > > I've got a architect client with a sub-optimal power situation on one of the projects he is working on. I'm running through a couple of scenarios that may work. Its a ADU (accessory dwelling unit) that is about 1100' from power. The farmer had taken it upon himself to bury some 4/0 a few years ago to run power out there. Voltage drop is the big issue and its not going to pass the AHJ inspection. We could just ditch the grid and go off-grid, but it seems like a shame to not tap into the grid resource. Instead of dealing with the voltage drop, I was thinking it may make sense to rectify that low AC voltage input and parallel a smallish battery bank (size is yet to be determined), then use an off-grid inverter to serve the loads at good voltage. > > I am looking for feedback on this concept. What do you think? > > Also, are there any recommendations for good quality rectifiers with wide input voltage window? > > Thanks in advance for your help > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Fri Apr 17 08:50:56 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:50:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex MPPT 80 600 Not Showing Up in SCP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So you terminate the shield somehow outside of the RJ45 connector? On 4/16/2020 9:01:53 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: When I did my cable swap and reconfiguration that fixed it I also was more careful to route the xanbus cables away from the batter/inverter cables - thinking that perhaps induction was the culprit.  As I have an rj45 crimp tool and some shielded CAT5e in the truck I think I'll just make up my own cables in the future after spending way more time than that troubleshooting. Best of luck! jc Jason Szumlanski wrote on 4/16/20 3:00 PM: I tried swapping the cables for the XW and MPPT. After reboot the XW continued to show up on the SCP but the MPPT did not. I didn't have another cable, but this suggests the cable is not the problem. I didn't think to change the order, however. On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 5:57 PM Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hey Jason, I had a SCP xanbus system once that refused to show a component - The fix was replacing the cheap ethernet wires that schneider provided with better cables and/or changing the order of the components in the series comm string.  not sure which did it as I did both changes at once but I do suspect those white cables. Best, Jeff Jason Szumlanski wrote on 4/16/20 1:03 PM: I am working with a client (not my install) with a XW6048 and MPPT 80 600 with a SCP. The SCP is not showing the MPPT in the setup menu. I am able to access the system settings and XW configuration, but not the MPPT settings. It is connected via Xanbus in this manner: SCP -> MPPT -> XW So the MPPT is in the middle and is passing through the XW signal just fine. The MPPT also has a red error light illuminated, but it is charging the battery (positive current measured via clamp meter). Any ideas? Thanks, Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/b90ca785a525b3990337afa8e4de7b8f58299dda?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=a218969f1c881b8f] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/782ab5370a2dc90df34131154f96595de5604ebc?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&userId=1613865&signature=6b59dfe40f1af8f5] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/f342e1145ed8bd312cd51c8d9538e7d40534372f?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=aaed0000f561c13d] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/b3aac2fd00cbe275bdd68323bbd3326fd7073c2c?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=b7fe990e7c6ebc5d] -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater VillageLab Village Power Design linkedin [https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/2b6554cfd6030cb29629ba73171aee87bce557b7?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Fjeff-clearwater-0622a312%2F&userId=1613865&signature=b502f02a345c328a] www.villagelab.net [https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/eaf54fba7350e494de8685771adb3c8b610c0ce2?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.villagelab.net&userId=1613865&signature=a7fed555763946d9] www.villagepowerdesign.com [https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/f35711ff79b27a2638bcbd392a1b2d9a09c7df5e?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.villagepowerdesign.com&userId=1613865&signature=aa4a4ddfbb35eb35] skype - jclearwater zoom by request cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/] www.villagepowerdesign.com [http://www.villagepowerdesign.com] cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: jfokbgnihnjknhfn.gif Type: image/gif Size: 42 bytes Desc: not available URL: From findsolar at herzfeld.org Fri Apr 17 06:37:29 2020 From: findsolar at herzfeld.org (Martin Herzfeld) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 03:37:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Industry Publications In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd suggest IAEI magazine found here: https://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/ All the best, Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037 Contract Training Provider (CTP) Adjunct Professor, Energy California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, D56, D31, C-7, Since 2004 Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG * Professional Member Since 2006, International Association of Electrical Inspectors * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training Provider On Thu, Apr 16, 2020, 9:28 PM Corey Shalanski wrote: > Wrenches, > > Like myself, I imagine many folks on this list were avid readers of "Home > Power" and "SolarPro" magazines. I know some of you were even active > contributors to these two wonderful publications. > > Is anyone aware of any similar resources - geared toward system > designers/installers/technicians (or just general enthusiasts)? Besides > this list, where are Wrenches turning to nowadays for relevant discussion > of current industry topics? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Apr 17 10:03:10 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:03:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex MPPT 80 600 Not Showing Up in SCP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A0CB991-DCF1-4650-8ED8-0B444FAE5955@swnl.net> One can use shielded ends but there is NO shielding in place for the connector inside the Schneider components. The most important thing is either enclosing the com cables inside the shielding tin inside the PDP or wire the cables outside of the devices. They (Schneider) had suggested 6’ cables there are folks that say that the supplied cables from Sch. are of poor quality. I have the config tool that in these situations really does help, having my own SCP, installing updated firmware, turning everything off & waiting few mins. + unplugging & replugging too has made a difference. I also have a plethora of green cat5 cables that I also will use. > On Apr 17, 2020, at 8:50 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > So you terminate the shield somehow outside of the RJ45 connector? >> On 4/16/2020 9:01:53 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >> >> When I did my cable swap and reconfiguration that fixed it I also was more careful to route the xanbus cables away from the batter/inverter cables - thinking that perhaps induction was the culprit. As I have an rj45 crimp tool and some shielded CAT5e in the truck I think I'll just make up my own cables in the future after spending way more time than that troubleshooting. >> >> Best of luck! >> >> jc >> >> Jason Szumlanski wrote on 4/16/20 3:00 PM: >>> I tried swapping the cables for the XW and MPPT. After reboot the XW continued to show up on the SCP but the MPPT did not. I didn't have another cable, but this suggests the cable is not the problem. I didn't think to change the order, however. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 5:57 PM Jeff Clearwater > wrote: >>> Hey Jason, >>> >>> I had a SCP xanbus system once that refused to show a component - The fix was replacing the cheap ethernet wires that schneider provided with better cables and/or changing the order of the components in the series comm string. not sure which did it as I did both changes at once but I do suspect those white cables. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski wrote on 4/16/20 1:03 PM: >>>> I am working with a client (not my install) with a XW6048 and MPPT 80 600 with a SCP. The SCP is not showing the MPPT in the setup menu. I am able to access the system settings and XW configuration, but not the MPPT settings. It is connected via Xanbus in this manner: >>>> >>>> SCP -> MPPT -> XW >>>> >>>> So the MPPT is in the middle and is passing through the XW signal just fine. >>>> >>>> The MPPT also has a red error light illuminated, but it is charging the battery (positive current measured via clamp meter). >>>> >>>> Any ideas? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> Jeff Clearwater >>> VillageLab >>> Village Power Design >>> linkedin >>> www.villagelab.net >>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>> skype - jclearwater >>> zoom by request >>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> -- >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> linkedin >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> cell - 413-559-9763 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Apr 17 10:08:29 2020 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:08:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rectifier Message-ID: <7c1l0c221vh8bqkgp3igor5j.1587132453843@email.lge.com> How about a transformer at each end?Step up the voltage.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Mac LewisDate: Fri, Apr 17, 2020 9:15 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] RectifierHi wrenches,I've got a architect client with a sub-optimal power situation on one of the projects he is working on.  I'm running through a couple of scenarios that may work.  Its a ADU (accessory dwelling unit) that is about 1100' from power.  The farmer had taken it upon himself to bury some 4/0 a few years ago to run power out there.  Voltage drop is the big issue and its not going to pass the AHJ inspection.  We could just ditch the grid and go off-grid, but it seems like a shame to not tap into the grid resource.  Instead of dealing with the voltage drop, I was thinking it may make sense to rectify that low AC voltage input and parallel a smallish battery bank (size is yet to be determined), then use an off-grid inverter to serve the loads at good voltage.I am looking for feedback on this concept.  What do you think?Also, are there any recommendations for good quality rectifiers with wide input voltage window?  Thanks in advance for your help-- Mac Lewis"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 10:51:00 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 07:51:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Industry Publications In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cory, Wrenches Mother Earth News https://www.motherearthnews.com is one that you may be interested in Jerry NABCEP PV Inspector On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 9:28 PM Corey Shalanski wrote: > Wrenches, > > Like myself, I imagine many folks on this list were avid readers of "Home > Power" and "SolarPro" magazines. I know some of you were even active > contributors to these two wonderful publications. > > Is anyone aware of any similar resources - geared toward system > designers/installers/technicians (or just general enthusiasts)? Besides > this list, where are Wrenches turning to nowadays for relevant discussion > of current industry topics? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 10:53:07 2020 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 07:53:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rectifier In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Mac.....If you were to install an Outback Radian with a max of 50A pass thru capability on a single inverter you could use your existing 4/0AWG wire size and only have a 2.4% voltage drop. You could run a PV system and inverter and only tap into the grid connection when PV alone wasn't sufficient. The voltage drop would be well with in tolerance and only pertinent when using the AC power source. Essentially an off grid system with the grid available as a supplemental charging source instead of a noisy smelly generator, which of course you could add if needed as well for times when grid fails. Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 6:15 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi wrenches, > > I've got a architect client with a sub-optimal power situation on one of > the projects he is working on. I'm running through a couple of scenarios > that may work. Its a ADU (accessory dwelling unit) that is about 1100' > from power. The farmer had taken it upon himself to bury some 4/0 a few > years ago to run power out there. Voltage drop is the big issue and its > not going to pass the AHJ inspection. We could just ditch the grid and go > off-grid, but it seems like a shame to not tap into the grid resource. > Instead of dealing with the voltage drop, I was thinking it may make sense > to rectify that low AC voltage input and parallel a smallish battery bank > (size is yet to be determined), then use an off-grid inverter to serve the > loads at good voltage. > > I am looking for feedback on this concept. What do you think? > > Also, are there any recommendations for good quality rectifiers with wide > input voltage window? > > Thanks in advance for your help > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 10:44:30 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 07:44:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rectifier In-Reply-To: <7c1l0c221vh8bqkgp3igor5j.1587132453843@email.lge.com> References: <7c1l0c221vh8bqkgp3igor5j.1587132453843@email.lge.com> Message-ID: <30FB2DF5-5289-4AA3-B138-D301B079E140@gmail.com> Hi Mac All depends on how much power do you want out there? Jay Peltz power > On Apr 17, 2020, at 7:08 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: > >  > How about a transformer at each end? > Step up the voltage. > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > From: Mac Lewis > Date: Fri, Apr 17, 2020 9:15 AM > To: RE-wrenches; > Cc: > Subject:[RE-wrenches] Rectifier > > Hi wrenches, > > I've got a architect client with a sub-optimal power situation on one of the projects he is working on. I'm running through a couple of scenarios that may work. Its a ADU (accessory dwelling unit) that is about 1100' from power. The farmer had taken it upon himself to bury some 4/0 a few years ago to run power out there. Voltage drop is the big issue and its not going to pass the AHJ inspection. We could just ditch the grid and go off-grid, but it seems like a shame to not tap into the grid resource. Instead of dealing with the voltage drop, I was thinking it may make sense to rectify that low AC voltage input and parallel a smallish battery bank (size is yet to be determined), then use an off-grid inverter to serve the loads at good voltage. > > I am looking for feedback on this concept. What do you think? > > Also, are there any recommendations for good quality rectifiers with wide input voltage window? > > Thanks in advance for your help > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 11:11:02 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:11:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rectifier In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cory, Wrenches I had this at a golf course, we used the existing wire as a lower amp feed to out Outback blue planet system, with proper programing and an ac to dc 48 volt 1000 watt charger. There was a small PV component and away it went, worked great. Jerry On Fri, Apr 17, 2020, 6:15 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi wrenches, > > I've got a architect client with a sub-optimal power situation on one of > the projects he is working on. I'm running through a couple of scenarios > that may work. Its a ADU (accessory dwelling unit) that is about 1100' > from power. The farmer had taken it upon himself to bury some 4/0 a few > years ago to run power out there. Voltage drop is the big issue and its > not going to pass the AHJ inspection. We could just ditch the grid and go > off-grid, but it seems like a shame to not tap into the grid resource. > Instead of dealing with the voltage drop, I was thinking it may make sense > to rectify that low AC voltage input and parallel a smallish battery bank > (size is yet to be determined), then use an off-grid inverter to serve the > loads at good voltage. > > I am looking for feedback on this concept. What do you think? > > Also, are there any recommendations for good quality rectifiers with wide > input voltage window? > > Thanks in advance for your help > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phil at insoltechsolar.com Fri Apr 17 11:16:01 2020 From: phil at insoltechsolar.com (Philip Lawes Insoltech) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:16:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Industry Publications In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008101d614cb$1b053110$510f9330$@insoltechsolar.com> I wish there were. Philip N Lawes 172 Wave St. Laguna Beach, Ca. 92651 Office: 949-497-6300 Cell: 949-510-0687 Email: Phil at Insoltechsolar.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Corey Shalanski Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2020 9:29 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Industry Publications Wrenches, Like myself, I imagine many folks on this list were avid readers of "Home Power" and "SolarPro" magazines. I know some of you were even active contributors to these two wonderful publications. Is anyone aware of any similar resources - geared toward system designers/installers/technicians (or just general enthusiasts)? Besides this list, where are Wrenches turning to nowadays for relevant discussion of current industry topics? -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 40316 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Apr 17 11:12:27 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:12:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex MPPT 80 600 Not Showing Up in SCP In-Reply-To: <6A0CB991-DCF1-4650-8ED8-0B444FAE5955@swnl.net> References: <6A0CB991-DCF1-4650-8ED8-0B444FAE5955@swnl.net> Message-ID: There is just as much shielding inside Schneider, Outback or most any electronics that are designed for networking. It is Engineered in. Canbus, modbus, ">DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:03:10 -0400, Tump wrote: One can use shielded ends but there is NO shielding in place for the connector inside the Schneider components. The most important thing is either enclosing the com cables inside the shielding tin inside the PDP or wire the cables outside of the devices. They (Schneider) had suggested 6' cables there are folks that say that the supplied cables from Sch. are of poor quality. I have the config tool that in these situations really does help, having my own SCP, installing updated firmware, turning everything off & waiting few mins. + unplugging border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"> On Apr 17, 2020, at 8:50 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: So you terminate the shield somehow outside of the RJ45 connector? On 4/16/2020 9:01:53 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: When I did my cable swap and reconfiguration that fixed it I also was more careful to route the xanbus cables away from the batter/inverter cables - thinking that perhaps induction was the culprit. As I have an rj45 crimp tool and some shielded CAT5e in the truck I think I'll just make up my own cables in the future after spending way more time than that troubleshooting. Best of luck! jc Jason Szumlanski wrote on 4/16/20 3:00 PM: I tried swapping the cables for the XW and MPPT. After reboot the XW continued to show up on the SCP but the MPPT did not. I didn't have another cable, but this suggests the cable is not the problem. I didn't think to change the order, however. On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 5:57 PM Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hey Jason, I had a SCP xanbus system once that refused to show a component - The fix was replacing the cheap ethernet wires that schneider provided with better cables and/or changing the order of the components in the series comm string. not sure which did it as I did both changes at once but I do suspect those white cables. Best, Jeff Jason Szumlanski wrote on 4/16/20 1:03 PM: I am working with a client (not my install) with a XW6048 and MPPT 80 600 with a SCP. The SCP is not showing the MPPT in the setup menu. I am able to access the system settings and XW configuration, but not the MPPT settings. It is connected via Xanbus in this manner: SCP -> MPPT -> XW So the MPPT is in the middle and is passing through the XW signal just fine. The MPPT also has a red error light illuminated, but it is charging the battery (positive current measured via clamp meter). Any ideas? Thanks, Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8] List rules font-size: inherit; padding: 0px; color: #505050;">413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [16] List rules font-size: inherit; padding: 0px; color: #505050;">413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [21] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [22] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"> WWW.SWNL.NET [23] Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ _ SERVING MID COAST MAINE "> _ 207-832-7574 CL. 610-517-8401 _ _ __BLAIR "TUMP" MAY_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ __ NABCEP "CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER"_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ TRACE XANTREX "CERTIFIED" DEALER / INSTALLER"_ Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:vtsolar at icloud.com [4] mailto:jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com [5] mailto:jeffc at villagelab.net [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/b90ca785a525b3990337afa8e4de7b8f58299dda?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=a218969f1c881b8f [8] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/782ab5370a2dc90df34131154f96595de5604ebc?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&userId=1613865&signature=6b59dfe40f1af8f5 [9] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/f342e1145ed8bd312cd51c8d9538e7d40534372f?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=aaed0000f561c13d [10] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/b3aac2fd00cbe275bdd68323bbd3326fd7073c2c?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=b7fe990e7c6ebc5d [11] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/2b6554cfd6030cb29629ba73171aee87bce557b7?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Fjeff-clearwater-0622a312%2F&userId=1613865&signature=b502f02a345c328a [12] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/eaf54fba7350e494de8685771adb3c8b610c0ce2?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.villagelab.net&userId=1613865&signature=a7fed555763946d9 [13] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/f35711ff79b27a2638bcbd392a1b2d9a09c7df5e?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.villagepowerdesign.com&userId=1613865&signature=aa4a4ddfbb35eb35 [14] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [17] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [18] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ [19] https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/ [20] http://www.villagepowerdesign.com/ [21] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [22] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [23] http://webmail.sti.net/blocked::http://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Apr 17 14:21:14 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:21:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stand alone battery charger Message-ID: I'm looking for a standalone 51V nominal battery charger suitable for a LiPO battery with 2-stage charging and adjustable setpoints for max current and battery voltage. It would require dual chargers with 100A capacity (I want dual chargers for redundancy so I have at least 50% capacity if one goes bad). Ideally they would sync up so they change stages simultaneously, but I'm not sure if that's really important. Who makes something like that? Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Apr 17 14:53:26 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:53:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stand alone battery charger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I guess I should mention... 240V input from a generator. If the charger could ramp up the charge rate slowly, that would be helpful. On Fri, Apr 17, 2020, 2:21 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I'm looking for a standalone 51V nominal battery charger suitable for a > LiPO battery with 2-stage charging and adjustable setpoints for max current > and battery voltage. It would require dual chargers with 100A capacity (I > want dual chargers for redundancy so I have at least 50% capacity if one > goes bad). Ideally they would sync up so they change stages simultaneously, > but I'm not sure if that's really important. > > Who makes something like that? > > Jason Szumlanski > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Fri Apr 17 15:00:59 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:00:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex MPPT 80 600 Not Showing Up in SCP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3b03c43c-f639-d61b-b18d-004fe1076776@villagepowerdesign.com> Hey Kirk, yes shielded cable does little good if you don't ground the little wire provided at least at one end.  I just run a ground wire and tape it to the CAT cable. Kirk Herander wrote on 4/17/20 5:50 AM: > So you terminate the shield somehow outside of the RJ45 connector? >> >> On 4/16/2020 9:01:53 PM, Jeff Clearwater >> wrote: >> >> When I did my cable swap and reconfiguration that fixed it I also was >> more careful to route the xanbus cables away from the batter/inverter >> cables - thinking that perhaps induction was the culprit.  As I have >> an rj45 crimp tool and some shielded CAT5e in the truck I think I'll >> just make up my own cables in the future after spending way more time >> than that troubleshooting. >> >> Best of luck! >> >> jc >> >> Jason Szumlanski wrote on 4/16/20 3:00 PM: >>> I tried swapping the cables for the XW and MPPT. After reboot the XW >>> continued to show up on the SCP but the MPPT did not. I didn't have >>> another cable, but this suggests the cable is not the problem. I >>> didn't think to change the order, however. >>> >>> * >>> >>> * >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 5:57 PM Jeff Clearwater >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Hey Jason, >>> >>> I had a SCP xanbus system once that refused to show a component >>> - The fix was replacing the cheap ethernet wires that schneider >>> provided with better cables and/or changing the order of the >>> components in the series comm string.  not sure which did it as >>> I did both changes at once but I do suspect those white cables. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski wrote on 4/16/20 1:03 PM: >>>> I am working with a client (not my install) with a XW6048 and >>>> MPPT 80 600 with a SCP. The SCP is not showing the MPPT in the >>>> setup menu. I am able to access the system settings and XW >>>> configuration, but not the MPPT settings. It is connected via >>>> Xanbus in this manner: >>>> >>>> SCP -> MPPT -> XW >>>> >>>> So the MPPT is in the middle and is passing through the XW >>>> signal just fine. >>>> >>>> The MPPT also has a red error light illuminated, but it is >>>> charging the battery (positive current measured via clamp meter). >>>> >>>> Any ideas? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> * >>>> >>>> * >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> Jeff Clearwater >>> VillageLab >>> Village Power Design >>> linkedin >>> >>> >>> www.villagelab.net >>> >>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>> >>> skype - jclearwater >>> zoom by request >>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> -- >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> linkedin >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> cell - 413-559-9763 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 15:14:41 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:14:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rectifier In-Reply-To: <30FB2DF5-5289-4AA3-B138-D301B079E140@gmail.com> References: <7c1l0c221vh8bqkgp3igor5j.1587132453843@email.lge.com> <30FB2DF5-5289-4AA3-B138-D301B079E140@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, >From a power perspective, I'm comfortable with a 5000W inverter, covering some peak intermittent loads. As far as kWh/day, its going to be in the 10-15 kWh range I believe. if the rectifier and/or battery charger would do ~700-1000W 24/7, it should be plenty from a power perspective. Kirpal, I think your idea is sound, and I may do it but I have to see how the typical voltage profile looks. Grid support mode might be very effective, but it may be better to rectify. Its a sprawling farm property with quite a few loads tapped into the feeder circuit, so the sag might be significant. I can see them using that feeder for livestock tank heaters and irrigation pumps etc. Thanks for all of the info! On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 9:30 AM Jay wrote: > Hi Mac > > All depends on how much power do you want out there? > > Jay > > Peltz power > > > > > On Apr 17, 2020, at 7:08 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: > >  > How about a transformer at each end? > Step up the voltage. > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Mac Lewis > *Date: *Fri, Apr 17, 2020 9:15 AM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Rectifier > > Hi wrenches, > > I've got a architect client with a sub-optimal power situation on one of > the projects he is working on. I'm running through a couple of scenarios > that may work. Its a ADU (accessory dwelling unit) that is about 1100' > from power. The farmer had taken it upon himself to bury some 4/0 a few > years ago to run power out there. Voltage drop is the big issue and its > not going to pass the AHJ inspection. We could just ditch the grid and go > off-grid, but it seems like a shame to not tap into the grid resource. > Instead of dealing with the voltage drop, I was thinking it may make sense > to rectify that low AC voltage input and parallel a smallish battery bank > (size is yet to be determined), then use an off-grid inverter to serve the > loads at good voltage. > > I am looking for feedback on this concept. What do you think? > > Also, are there any recommendations for good quality rectifiers with wide > input voltage window? > > Thanks in advance for your help > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Apr 17 16:00:51 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:00:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stand alone battery charger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I use the CSW 4048. It has a 50 amp charger. A good spare for clients. Get 2 of them. Repurpose an old Radian or XW well over 100A. XW+ is 140adc. DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: I'm looking for a standalone 51V nominal battery charger suitable for a LiPO battery with 2-stage charging and adjustable setpoints for max current and battery voltage. It would require dual chargers with 100A capacity (I want dual chargers for redundancy so I have at least 50% capacity if one goes bad). Ideally they would sync up so they change stages simultaneously, but I'm not sure if that's really important. Who makes something like that? Jason Szumlanski Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 18:57:12 2020 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:57:12 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Industry Publications In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Related question: I always considered the *Home Power* and *SolarPro *article search features to be really valuable parts of their websites, but neither of these appear to be still available. I believe the *HP* article archive DVD supports keyword searches (via Acrobat or other PDF viewer), but I am looking for more of an online-based option. Is anyone aware of any other efforts to catalog the articles and/or develop a searchable keyword database? -Corey On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 11:28 PM Corey Shalanski wrote: > > Wrenches, > > Like myself, I imagine many folks on this list were avid readers of "Home > Power" and "SolarPro" magazines. I know some of you were even active > contributors to these two wonderful publications. > > Is anyone aware of any similar resources - geared toward system > designers/installers/technicians (or just general enthusiasts)? Besides > this list, where are Wrenches turning to nowadays for relevant discussion > of current industry topics? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Fri Apr 17 19:42:04 2020 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:42:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Industry Publications In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1587167340781.61a229b6459e4a88@re-wrenches.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 15:41:08 2020 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:41:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rectifier In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mac, There are a few questions like is it Al or Cu wire, What makes it unusable? for Voltage drop, I use Vd=2KIL/CMA for your case the unknown is the current. The installation of an inverter with grid support. Many inverters have this, you want a multimode inverter such as a Schneider, Outback, SolArk and I could name at least 4 more. A normal house will run on 30 amps. So assume 30 amps, Vd=2x21.6x30x1100/211600 =6.7 volts So if the main house is at 240 Volts the remote house is at 233 Volts. The multimode inverter could be set at grid support beyond 30 Amps. For higher house loads the inverter can support up to 30 to 50 amps additional. (SolArk is 50 amp) I would add a balancing transformer at the end of the line to make the 120 loads balance. (an Autotransformer) such that 120 volts loads are balanced and the load is shared between 240-Volt conductors. Based on my customers' experiences I would use AGM LA batteries, as I expect low usage of the battery and quick recharge, but that is the customer's choice. I had one customer that had 10 years on the float-AGM battery set. On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 8:15 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi wrenches, > > I've got a architect client with a sub-optimal power situation on one of > the projects he is working on. I'm running through a couple of scenarios > that may work. Its a ADU (accessory dwelling unit) that is about 1100' > from power. The farmer had taken it upon himself to bury some 4/0 a few > years ago to run power out there. Voltage drop is the big issue and its > not going to pass the AHJ inspection. We could just ditch the grid and go > off-grid, but it seems like a shame to not tap into the grid resource. > Instead of dealing with the voltage drop, I was thinking it may make sense > to rectify that low AC voltage input and parallel a smallish battery bank > (size is yet to be determined), then use an off-grid inverter to serve the > loads at good voltage. > > I am looking for feedback on this concept. What do you think? > > Also, are there any recommendations for good quality rectifiers with wide > input voltage window? > > Thanks in advance for your help > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Apr 18 21:25:11 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 21:25:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rectifier In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When doing the volt drop calculation, be sure to correct for temperature, per the note after table 8, chapter 9 of the NEC. The table values default at 167 deg F (75 C).  An underground cable will be operating closer to earth temperature.   When I run volt drop for a 4/0 copper cable at 60 deg F, I'm seeing that you could go over 60 amps and maintain a volt drop of 3%. Not sure what the requirements for the building are, but that exceeds most of my off grid systems.  60+ amps at a final voltage of 232 v is almost 14kW. Is there air conditioning?  What are the calculated loads for this building?  Is the inspector actually calling this a problem? I would do a proof of concept: turn every light on in the place, along with some typical appliances (hair dryer, microwave) hit a circular saw to really make the point, with a DMM plugged in.  I found long ago that actual measured volt drop was not as bad as Chapter 9 first predicts. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/18/20 3:41 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > Hi Mac, There are a few questions like is it Al or Cu wire, What makes > it unusable? > for Voltage drop, I use Vd=2KIL/CMA for your case the unknown is the > current.  The installation of an inverter with grid support.  Many > inverters have this,  you want a multimode inverter such as a > Schneider, Outback, SolArk and I could name at least 4 more.  A normal > house will run on 30 amps.  So assume 30 amps, > Vd=2x21.6x30x1100/211600 =6.7 volts > So if the main house is at 240 Volts the remote house is at 233 > Volts.  The multimode inverter could be set at grid support beyond 30 > Amps.  For higher house loads the inverter can support up to 30 to 50 > amps additional.  (SolArk is 50 amp) I would add a balancing > transformer at the end of the line to make the 120 loads balance.  (an > Autotransformer) such that  120 volts loads are balanced and the load > is shared between 240-Volt conductors. Based on my customers' > experiences I would use AGM LA batteries, as I expect low usage of the > battery and quick recharge, but that is the customer's choice.  I had > one customer that had 10 years on the float-AGM battery set. > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 8:15 AM Mac Lewis > wrote: > > Hi wrenches, > > I've got a architect client with a sub-optimal power situation on > one of the projects he is working on.  I'm running through a > couple of scenarios that may work.  Its a ADU (accessory dwelling > unit) that is about 1100' from power.  The farmer had taken it > upon himself to bury some 4/0 a few years ago to run power out > there.  Voltage drop is the big issue and its not going to pass > the AHJ inspection.  We could just ditch the grid and go off-grid, > but it seems like a shame to not tap into the grid resource.  > Instead of dealing with the voltage drop, I was thinking it may > make sense to rectify that low AC voltage input and parallel a > smallish battery bank (size is yet to be determined), then use an > off-grid inverter to serve the loads at good voltage. > > I am looking for feedback on this concept.  What do you think? > > Also, are there any recommendations for good quality rectifiers > with wide input voltage window? > > Thanks in advance for your help > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun Apr 19 11:53:50 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 11:53:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rectifier In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8d995571938d38e34337f76c65c4c3a5@redwoodalliance.org> We had a similar situation, and are now feeding a battery bank with a pair of 48 V Iota chargers. Iota can run on very low voltages. We have one Iota on each leg of the the 120/240 split phase to balance the load. It works. --- On 2020-04-18 21:25, Ray wrote: > When doing the volt drop calculation, be sure to correct for temperature, per the note after table 8, chapter 9 of the NEC. The table values default at 167 deg F (75 C). An underground cable will be operating closer to earth temperature. When I run volt drop for a 4/0 copper cable at 60 deg F, I'm seeing that you could go over 60 amps and maintain a volt drop of 3%. > > Not sure what the requirements for the building are, but that exceeds most of my off grid systems. 60+ amps at a final voltage of 232 v is almost 14kW. Is there air conditioning? What are the calculated loads for this building? Is the inspector actually calling this a problem? > > I would do a proof of concept: turn every light on in the place, along with some typical appliances (hair dryer, microwave) hit a circular saw to really make the point, with a DMM plugged in. I found long ago that actual measured volt drop was not as bad as Chapter 9 first predicts. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 4/18/20 3:41 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > > Hi Mac, There are a few questions like is it Al or Cu wire, What makes it unusable? > for Voltage drop, I use Vd=2KIL/CMA for your case the unknown is the current. The installation of an inverter with grid support. Many inverters have this, you want a multimode inverter such as a Schneider, Outback, SolArk and I could name at least 4 more. A normal house will run on 30 amps. So assume 30 amps, Vd=2x21.6x30x1100/211600 =6.7 volts > So if the main house is at 240 Volts the remote house is at 233 Volts. The multimode inverter could be set at grid support beyond 30 Amps. For higher house loads the inverter can support up to 30 to 50 amps additional. (SolArk is 50 amp) I would add a balancing transformer at the end of the line to make the 120 loads balance. (an Autotransformer) such that 120 volts loads are balanced and the load is shared between 240-Volt conductors. Based on my customers' experiences I would use AGM LA batteries, as I expect low usage of the battery and quick recharge, but that is the customer's choice. I had one customer that had 10 years on the float-AGM battery set. > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 8:15 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi wrenches, > > I've got a architect client with a sub-optimal power situation on one of the projects he is working on. I'm running through a couple of scenarios that may work. Its a ADU (accessory dwelling unit) that is about 1100' from power. The farmer had taken it upon himself to bury some 4/0 a few years ago to run power out there. Voltage drop is the big issue and its not going to pass the AHJ inspection. We could just ditch the grid and go off-grid, but it seems like a shame to not tap into the grid resource. Instead of dealing with the voltage drop, I was thinking it may make sense to rectify that low AC voltage input and parallel a smallish battery bank (size is yet to be determined), then use an off-grid inverter to serve the loads at good voltage. > > I am looking for feedback on this concept. What do you think? > > Also, are there any recommendations for good quality rectifiers with wide input voltage window? > > Thanks in advance for your help > > -- > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] Links: ------ [1] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Sun Apr 19 18:37:08 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:37:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wind and pv ITC 2019 vs. 2020 Message-ID: Hello, I am trying to wrap my head around the wind tax credit 2019 vs. 2020 and as it relates to my customers situation in concert with PV. I am in the middle of designing an off-grid power system, battery/inverter etc. My customer has contracted separately for a 30kw wind generator. They told me they have taken a 30% tax credit for the wind generator in 2019, even though only the foundation is in at this point, and the 2019 wind credit rules allow this as long as it is operational in the next 5 years. I don't know if this accurate, since they are several degrees removed from their tax advisors. Enter 2020. The wind credit is now under the same rules as the PV credit, I do believe, and is 26% this year. I have suggested that PV be added to the battery/inverter system so it can be eligible for the 2020 26% credit along with the PV. This brings down the cost significantly. So questions remain: 1) are the power components already eligible under the 2019 wind energy tax credit? Nothing has been contracted for yet in 2020. 2) if the answer to 1) is yes, then PV is not required to have the additional components covered under the tax credits, unless the components are not considered related to the wind credit since they weren't claimed in 2019. 3) if the answer to 1) is no, then we need PV to claim the 26% credit for battery/inverters in 2020. I don't expect to find any tax experts on this list, but perhaps some light could be shed nevertheless. This is somewhat unique, and I can't find much guidance on it online. Thanks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 19:45:58 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 16:45:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wind and pv ITC 2019 vs. 2020 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Kirk As it was told to me, commercial under contract in 19 is good for 19, no contract then no good and resi well that is a slippery slope and I always tell my customer to talk to their accountant as they are the ones being paid and signing off on the taxes. Your customer needs to verify with his guy on what can be done and not you, that is unless you are a licensed tax service provider. On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 4:33 PM Kirk Herander wrote: > Hello, > I am trying to wrap my head around the wind tax credit 2019 vs. 2020 and > as it relates to my customers situation in concert with PV. > I am in the middle of designing an off-grid power system, battery/inverter > etc. My customer has contracted separately for a 30kw wind generator. They > told me they have taken a 30% tax credit for the wind generator in 2019, > even though only the foundation is in at this point, and the 2019 wind > credit rules allow this as long as it is operational in the next 5 years. I > don't know if this accurate, since they are several degrees removed from > their tax advisors. > Enter 2020. The wind credit is now under the same rules as the PV credit, > I do believe, and is 26% this year. I have suggested that PV be added to > the battery/inverter system so it can be eligible for the 2020 26% credit > along with the PV. This brings down the cost significantly. So questions > remain: > 1) are the power components already eligible under the 2019 wind energy > tax credit? Nothing has been contracted for yet in 2020. > 2) if the answer to 1) is yes, then PV is not required to have the > additional components covered under the tax credits, unless the components > are not considered related to the wind credit since they weren't claimed in > 2019. > 3) if the answer to 1) is no, then we need PV to claim the 26% credit for > battery/inverters in 2020. > > I don't expect to find any tax experts on this list, but perhaps some > light could be shed nevertheless. This is somewhat unique, and I can't find > much guidance on it online. Thanks. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Mon Apr 20 08:21:17 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 08:21:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex MPPT 80 600 Not Showing Up in SCP In-Reply-To: <3b03c43c-f639-d61b-b18d-004fe1076776@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <3b03c43c-f639-d61b-b18d-004fe1076776@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: > "if you don't ground the little wire provided at least at one end", One grounds the shield/drain conductor ONLY at 1 end. > On Apr 17, 2020, at 3:00 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > > Hey Kirk, > > yes shielded cable does little good if you don't ground the little wire provided at least at one end. I just run a ground wire and tape it to the CAT cable. > > Kirk Herander wrote on 4/17/20 5:50 AM: > >> So you terminate the shield somehow outside of the RJ45 connector? >>> On 4/16/2020 9:01:53 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >>> >>> When I did my cable swap and reconfiguration that fixed it I also was more careful to route the xanbus cables away from the batter/inverter cables - thinking that perhaps induction was the culprit. As I have an rj45 crimp tool and some shielded CAT5e in the truck I think I'll just make up my own cables in the future after spending way more time than that troubleshooting. >>> >>> Best of luck! >>> >>> jc >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski wrote on 4/16/20 3:00 PM: >>>> I tried swapping the cables for the XW and MPPT. After reboot the XW continued to show up on the SCP but the MPPT did not. I didn't have another cable, but this suggests the cable is not the problem. I didn't think to change the order, however. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 5:57 PM Jeff Clearwater > wrote: >>>> Hey Jason, >>>> >>>> I had a SCP xanbus system once that refused to show a component - The fix was replacing the cheap ethernet wires that schneider provided with better cables and/or changing the order of the components in the series comm string. not sure which did it as I did both changes at once but I do suspect those white cables. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski wrote on 4/16/20 1:03 PM: >>>>> I am working with a client (not my install) with a XW6048 and MPPT 80 600 with a SCP. The SCP is not showing the MPPT in the setup menu. I am able to access the system settings and XW configuration, but not the MPPT settings. It is connected via Xanbus in this manner: >>>>> >>>>> SCP -> MPPT -> XW >>>>> >>>>> So the MPPT is in the middle and is passing through the XW signal just fine. >>>>> >>>>> The MPPT also has a red error light illuminated, but it is charging the battery (positive current measured via clamp meter). >>>>> >>>>> Any ideas? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>> Jeff Clearwater >>>> VillageLab >>>> Village Power Design >>>> linkedin >>>> www.villagelab.net >>>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>>> skype - jclearwater >>>> zoom by request >>>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> Jeff Clearwater >>> Village Power Design >>> linkedin >>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jfokbgnihnjknhfn.gif Type: image/gif Size: 42 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 10:56:31 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 08:56:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rectifier In-Reply-To: <8d995571938d38e34337f76c65c4c3a5@redwoodalliance.org> References: <8d995571938d38e34337f76c65c4c3a5@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: This is an example of where some code requirements bump up against logic. I believe the AC voltage will be quite usable at the site, just not for code requirements of the AHJ, and it may get pretty low during high usage times. They make the electrician size it for 100A minimum for an ADU, even though the loads are pretty minimal, and then require <5% VD from the main service entrance. That is the requirement for the certificate of occupancy. Luckily, off-grid buildings don't have these requirements at all. I'm going to size it as an off-grid and probably tie it in at some point in the future. Thanks for the input. On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 10:20 AM wrote: > We had a similar situation, and are now feeding a battery bank with a pair > of 48 V Iota chargers. Iota can run on very low voltages. We have one Iota > on each leg of the the 120/240 split phase to balance the load. It works. > --- > > > > On 2020-04-18 21:25, Ray wrote: > > When doing the volt drop calculation, be sure to correct for temperature, > per the note after table 8, chapter 9 of the NEC. The table values default > at 167 deg F (75 C). An underground cable will be operating closer to > earth temperature. When I run volt drop for a 4/0 copper cable at 60 deg > F, I'm seeing that you could go over 60 amps and maintain a volt drop of > 3%. > > Not sure what the requirements for the building are, but that exceeds most > of my off grid systems. 60+ amps at a final voltage of 232 v is almost > 14kW. Is there air conditioning? What are the calculated loads for this > building? Is the inspector actually calling this a problem? > > I would do a proof of concept: turn every light on in the place, along > with some typical appliances (hair dryer, microwave) hit a circular saw to > really make the point, with a DMM plugged in. I found long ago that actual > measured volt drop was not as bad as Chapter 9 first predicts. > > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 4/18/20 3:41 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > > Hi Mac, There are a few questions like is it Al or Cu wire, What makes it > unusable? > for Voltage drop, I use Vd=2KIL/CMA for your case the unknown is the > current. The installation of an inverter with grid support. Many > inverters have this, you want a multimode inverter such as a Schneider, > Outback, SolArk and I could name at least 4 more. A normal house will run > on 30 amps. So assume 30 amps, Vd=2x21.6x30x1100/211600 =6.7 volts > So if the main house is at 240 Volts the remote house is at 233 Volts. > The multimode inverter could be set at grid support beyond 30 Amps. For > higher house loads the inverter can support up to 30 to 50 amps > additional. (SolArk is 50 amp) I would add a balancing transformer at the > end of the line to make the 120 loads balance. (an Autotransformer) such > that 120 volts loads are balanced and the load is shared between 240-Volt > conductors. Based on my customers' experiences I would use AGM LA > batteries, as I expect low usage of the battery and quick recharge, but > that is the customer's choice. I had one customer that had 10 years on the > float-AGM battery set. > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 8:15 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi wrenches, > > I've got a architect client with a sub-optimal power situation on one of > the projects he is working on. I'm running through a couple of scenarios > that may work. Its a ADU (accessory dwelling unit) that is about 1100' > from power. The farmer had taken it upon himself to bury some 4/0 a few > years ago to run power out there. Voltage drop is the big issue and its > not going to pass the AHJ inspection. We could just ditch the grid and go > off-grid, but it seems like a shame to not tap into the grid resource. > Instead of dealing with the voltage drop, I was thinking it may make sense > to rectify that low AC voltage input and parallel a smallish battery bank > (size is yet to be determined), then use an off-grid inverter to serve the > loads at good voltage. > > I am looking for feedback on this concept. What do you think? > > Also, are there any recommendations for good quality rectifiers with wide > input voltage window? > > Thanks in advance for your help > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Mon Apr 20 11:30:09 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 11:30:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rectifier In-Reply-To: References: <8d995571938d38e34337f76c65c4c3a5@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: IF OFF grid is how you are sizing it, you might look at the Victron Quattro 5kW inverter. 100 A pass thru + AC assist, 45-65 hZ 90-140 input range. > On Apr 20, 2020, at 10:56 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > This is an example of where some code requirements bump up against logic. I believe the AC voltage will be quite usable at the site, just not for code requirements of the AHJ, and it may get pretty low during high usage times. They make the electrician size it for 100A minimum for an ADU, even though the loads are pretty minimal, and then require <5% VD from the main service entrance. That is the requirement for the certificate of occupancy. > > Luckily, off-grid buildings don't have these requirements at all. I'm going to size it as an off-grid and probably tie it in at some point in the future. > > Thanks for the input. > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 10:20 AM > wrote: > We had a similar situation, and are now feeding a battery bank with a pair of 48 V Iota chargers. Iota can run on very low voltages. We have one Iota on each leg of the the 120/240 split phase to balance the load. It works. > > --- > > > > On 2020-04-18 21:25, Ray wrote: > >> When doing the volt drop calculation, be sure to correct for temperature, per the note after table 8, chapter 9 of the NEC. The table values default at 167 deg F (75 C). An underground cable will be operating closer to earth temperature. When I run volt drop for a 4/0 copper cable at 60 deg F, I'm seeing that you could go over 60 amps and maintain a volt drop of 3%. >> >> Not sure what the requirements for the building are, but that exceeds most of my off grid systems. 60+ amps at a final voltage of 232 v is almost 14kW. Is there air conditioning? What are the calculated loads for this building? Is the inspector actually calling this a problem? >> >> I would do a proof of concept: turn every light on in the place, along with some typical appliances (hair dryer, microwave) hit a circular saw to really make the point, with a DMM plugged in. I found long ago that actual measured volt drop was not as bad as Chapter 9 first predicts. >> >> >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 4/18/20 3:41 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: >>> Hi Mac, There are a few questions like is it Al or Cu wire, What makes it unusable? >>> for Voltage drop, I use Vd=2KIL/CMA for your case the unknown is the current. The installation of an inverter with grid support. Many inverters have this, you want a multimode inverter such as a Schneider, Outback, SolArk and I could name at least 4 more. A normal house will run on 30 amps. So assume 30 amps, Vd=2x21.6x30x1100/211600 =6.7 volts >>> So if the main house is at 240 Volts the remote house is at 233 Volts. The multimode inverter could be set at grid support beyond 30 Amps. For higher house loads the inverter can support up to 30 to 50 amps additional. (SolArk is 50 amp) I would add a balancing transformer at the end of the line to make the 120 loads balance. (an Autotransformer) such that 120 volts loads are balanced and the load is shared between 240-Volt conductors. Based on my customers' experiences I would use AGM LA batteries, as I expect low usage of the battery and quick recharge, but that is the customer's choice. I had one customer that had 10 years on the float-AGM battery set. >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 8:15 AM Mac Lewis > wrote: >>> Hi wrenches, >>> >>> I've got a architect client with a sub-optimal power situation on one of the projects he is working on. I'm running through a couple of scenarios that may work. Its a ADU (accessory dwelling unit) that is about 1100' from power. The farmer had taken it upon himself to bury some 4/0 a few years ago to run power out there. Voltage drop is the big issue and its not going to pass the AHJ inspection. We could just ditch the grid and go off-grid, but it seems like a shame to not tap into the grid resource. Instead of dealing with the voltage drop, I was thinking it may make sense to rectify that low AC voltage input and parallel a smallish battery bank (size is yet to be determined), then use an off-grid inverter to serve the loads at good voltage. >>> >>> I am looking for feedback on this concept. What do you think? >>> >>> Also, are there any recommendations for good quality rectifiers with wide input voltage window? >>> >>> Thanks in advance for your help >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Apr 20 11:55:40 2020 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 11:55:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rectifier Message-ID: Beware that Victron has a crappy service/ returns policy.Do direct manufacturer support in the US, it all goes through their distributors.And returns have to be qualified by their distributor, and then approved by the factory overseas. My experience in front of a customer with this has led me to disqualify their products from our offerings.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: TumpDate: Mon, Apr 20, 2020 11:30 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] RectifierIF OFF grid is how you are sizing it, you might look at the Victron Quattro 5kW inverter.  100 A pass thru + AC assist,  45-65 hZ90-140 input range.On Apr 20, 2020, at 10:56 AM, Mac Lewis wrote:This is an example of where  some code requirements bump up against logic.  I believe the AC voltage will be quite usable at the site, just not for code requirements of the AHJ, and it may get pretty low during high usage times.  They make the electrician size it for 100A minimum for an ADU, even though the loads are pretty minimal, and then require <5% VD from the main service entrance.  That is the requirement for the certificate of occupancy.    Luckily, off-grid buildings don't have these requirements at all.  I'm going to size it as an off-grid and probably tie it in at some point in the future.Thanks for the input.On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 10:20 AM wrote:We had a similar situation, and are now feeding a battery bank with a pair of 48 V Iota chargers. Iota can run on very low voltages. We have one Iota on each leg of the the 120/240 split phase to balance the load. It works. ---   On 2020-04-18 21:25, Ray wrote: When doing the volt drop calculation, be sure to correct for temperature, per the note after table 8, chapter 9 of the NEC.  The table values default at 167 deg F (75 C).  An underground cable will be operating closer to earth temperature.   When I run volt drop for a 4/0 copper cable at 60 deg F, I'm seeing that you could go over 60 amps and maintain a volt drop of 3%.  Not sure what the requirements for the building are, but that exceeds most of my off grid systems.  60+ amps at a final voltage of 232 v is almost 14kW. Is there air conditioning?  What are the calculated loads for this building?  Is the inspector actually calling this a problem?  I would do a proof of concept: turn every light on in the place, along with some typical appliances (hair dryer, microwave) hit a circular saw to really make the point, with a DMM plugged in.  I found long ago that actual measured volt drop was not as bad as Chapter 9 first predicts. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/18/20 3:41 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: Hi Mac, There are a few questions like is it Al or Cu wire, What makes it unusable?   for Voltage drop, I use Vd=2KIL/CMA for your case the unknown is the current.  The installation of an inverter with grid support.  Many inverters have this,  you want a multimode inverter such as a Schneider, Outback, SolArk and I could name at least 4 more.  A normal house will run on 30 amps.  So assume 30 amps, Vd=2x21.6x30x1100/211600 =6.7 volts So if the main house is at 240 Volts the remote house is at 233 Volts.  The multimode inverter could be set at grid support beyond 30 Amps.  For higher house loads the inverter can support up to 30 to 50 amps additional.  (SolArk is 50 amp) I would add a balancing transformer at the end of the line to make the 120 loads balance.  (an Autotransformer) such that  120 volts loads are balanced and the load is shared between 240-Volt conductors.  Based on my customers' experiences I would use AGM LA batteries, as I expect low usage of the battery and quick recharge, but that is the customer's choice.  I had one customer that had 10 years on the float-AGM battery set.      On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 8:15 AM Mac Lewis wrote: Hi wrenches,   I've got a architect client with a sub-optimal power situation on one of the projects he is working on.  I'm running through a couple of scenarios that may work.  Its a ADU (accessory dwelling unit) that is about 1100' from power.  The farmer had taken it upon himself to bury some 4/0 a few years ago to run power out there.  Voltage drop is the big issue and its not going to pass the AHJ inspection.  We could just ditch the grid and go off-grid, but it seems like a shame to not tap into the grid resource.  Instead of dealing with the voltage drop, I was thinking it may make sense to rectify that low AC voltage input and parallel a smallish battery bank (size is yet to be determined), then use an off-grid inverter to serve the loads at good voltage.   I am looking for feedback on this concept.  What do you think?   Also, are there any recommendations for good quality rectifiers with wide input voltage window?     Thanks in advance for your help   --       Mac Lewis"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htmlList rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htmlList rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htmlList rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net               www.SWNL.net                Solarwinds Northernlights              Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California                         207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401                                                            Blair "TUMP" May               ********  MAINE'S CHARTER ********                      NABCEP    "Certified PV Installer"                  ********  MAINE'S CHARTER ********                  Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Apr 21 08:27:53 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 08:27:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stand alone battery charger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I actually need 400Adc at 51V nominal of total charge rate. I was hoping to use 100Adc chargers for redundancy, or some combination of 2-8 chargers to reach the needed current, assuming they can be synced up. I don't think the charging algorithm needs to be complicated. We are basically bulk charging the LiPOs to 80% with the battery BMS controlling the generator. The concept is to get to 80% sometime in the night and solar kicks in during the day to reach 100% using 2-stage charging from the XW charge controllers. The problem I have is the quad XW6048s in the system run at a pretty good load typically... often over 50%. This is off-grid with generator backup. The transfer switches in the XW6048 are causing surges and brownouts when the switched loads are high, especially smart dimmers and televisions. I need seamless power for this client. My thought is to abandon the internal chargers in the XW6048s and just run loads off inverter power full-time. I would charge the batteries with external battery chargers. The tricky part is how to adjust the charge rate based on load, and also based on solar input. I need to limit the net charging current. Of course, I still need 400Adc of charging current, which I'm learning might be hard to find. I don't really want to buy four more XWs - that's a pretty expensive solution. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 4:26 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > I use the CSW 4048. It has a 50 amp charger. A good spare for clients. Get > 2 of them. Repurpose an old Radian or XW well over 100A. XW+ is 140adc. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > I'm looking for a standalone 51V nominal battery charger suitable for a > LiPO battery with 2-stage charging and adjustable setpoints for max current > and battery voltage. It would require dual chargers with 100A capacity (I > want dual chargers for redundancy so I have at least 50% capacity if one > goes bad). Ideally they would sync up so they change stages simultaneously, > but I'm not sure if that's really important. > > Who makes something like that? > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Tue Apr 21 09:35:32 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:35:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stand alone battery charger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <825A835D-17AA-489C-871E-E8D5793BBC06@swnl.net> Have you shortened the transfer time from gen to inv, voltage “cut out"acceptance of the gen in power instead of their 90Vac to say 110V/L ? Raising the output voltage on the 6848s & gen set for VD/voltage sag issues under heavy loading? Watch this as sometimes under heavy loading it will cut the AC input. I use the config tool to address this kind of issue, gives me a bit more control. I have a client that has a large external battery charger similar to a fork truck unit that he alleges causes "dirty power" while the genset is supplying power to the charger, w/o charging thru the inverters. Unfortunately w/ the virus I have yet to confirm. > On Apr 21, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I actually need 400Adc at 51V nominal of total charge rate. I was hoping to use 100Adc chargers for redundancy, or some combination of 2-8 chargers to reach the needed current, assuming they can be synced up. I don't think the charging algorithm needs to be complicated. We are basically bulk charging the LiPOs to 80% with the battery BMS controlling the generator. The concept is to get to 80% sometime in the night and solar kicks in during the day to reach 100% using 2-stage charging from the XW charge controllers. > > The problem I have is the quad XW6048s in the system run at a pretty good load typically... often over 50%. This is off-grid with generator backup. The transfer switches in the XW6048 are causing surges and brownouts when the switched loads are high, especially smart dimmers and televisions. I need seamless power for this client. My thought is to abandon the internal chargers in the XW6048s and just run loads off inverter power full-time. I would charge the batteries with external battery chargers. The tricky part is how to adjust the charge rate based on load, and also based on solar input. I need to limit the net charging current. Of course, I still need 400Adc of charging current, which I'm learning might be hard to find. I don't really want to buy four more XWs - that's a pretty expensive solution. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 4:26 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > wrote: > I use the CSW 4048. It has a 50 amp charger. A good spare for clients. Get 2 of them. Repurpose an old Radian or XW well over 100A. XW+ is 140adc. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > >> I'm looking for a standalone 51V nominal battery charger suitable for a LiPO battery with 2-stage charging and adjustable setpoints for max current and battery voltage. It would require dual chargers with 100A capacity (I want dual chargers for redundancy so I have at least 50% capacity if one goes bad). Ideally they would sync up so they change stages simultaneously, but I'm not sure if that's really important. >> >> Who makes something like that? >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Apr 21 10:05:28 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 10:05:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rectifier In-Reply-To: References: <8d995571938d38e34337f76c65c4c3a5@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <82eaf8d64c0100768364cb22282b438e@redwoodalliance.org> The voltage drop recommendations in the code are actually not requirements, but recommendations. Some locations make them requirements, but if the AHJ is following the NEC without amendment, the 2% and 3% recommended drops are only recommendations. --- On 2020-04-20 10:56, Mac Lewis wrote: > This is an example of where some code requirements bump up against logic. I believe the AC voltage will be quite usable at the site, just not for code requirements of the AHJ, and it may get pretty low during high usage times. They make the electrician size it for 100A minimum for an ADU, even though the loads are pretty minimal, and then require <5% VD from the main service entrance. That is the requirement for the certificate of occupancy. > > Luckily, off-grid buildings don't have these requirements at all. I'm going to size it as an off-grid and probably tie it in at some point in the future. > > Thanks for the input. > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 10:20 AM wrote: > > We had a similar situation, and are now feeding a battery bank with a pair of 48 V Iota chargers. Iota can run on very low voltages. We have one Iota on each leg of the the 120/240 split phase to balance the load. It works. > > --- > > On 2020-04-18 21:25, Ray wrote: > > When doing the volt drop calculation, be sure to correct for temperature, per the note after table 8, chapter 9 of the NEC. The table values default at 167 deg F (75 C). An underground cable will be operating closer to earth temperature. When I run volt drop for a 4/0 copper cable at 60 deg F, I'm seeing that you could go over 60 amps and maintain a volt drop of 3%. > > Not sure what the requirements for the building are, but that exceeds most of my off grid systems. 60+ amps at a final voltage of 232 v is almost 14kW. Is there air conditioning? What are the calculated loads for this building? Is the inspector actually calling this a problem? > > I would do a proof of concept: turn every light on in the place, along with some typical appliances (hair dryer, microwave) hit a circular saw to really make the point, with a DMM plugged in. I found long ago that actual measured volt drop was not as bad as Chapter 9 first predicts. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 4/18/20 3:41 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > > Hi Mac, There are a few questions like is it Al or Cu wire, What makes it unusable? > for Voltage drop, I use Vd=2KIL/CMA for your case the unknown is the current. The installation of an inverter with grid support. Many inverters have this, you want a multimode inverter such as a Schneider, Outback, SolArk and I could name at least 4 more. A normal house will run on 30 amps. So assume 30 amps, Vd=2x21.6x30x1100/211600 =6.7 volts > So if the main house is at 240 Volts the remote house is at 233 Volts. The multimode inverter could be set at grid support beyond 30 Amps. For higher house loads the inverter can support up to 30 to 50 amps additional. (SolArk is 50 amp) I would add a balancing transformer at the end of the line to make the 120 loads balance. (an Autotransformer) such that 120 volts loads are balanced and the load is shared between 240-Volt conductors. Based on my customers' experiences I would use AGM LA batteries, as I expect low usage of the battery and quick recharge, but that is the customer's choice. I had one customer that had 10 years on the float-AGM battery set. > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 8:15 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi wrenches, > > I've got a architect client with a sub-optimal power situation on one of the projects he is working on. I'm running through a couple of scenarios that may work. Its a ADU (accessory dwelling unit) that is about 1100' from power. The farmer had taken it upon himself to bury some 4/0 a few years ago to run power out there. Voltage drop is the big issue and its not going to pass the AHJ inspection. We could just ditch the grid and go off-grid, but it seems like a shame to not tap into the grid resource. Instead of dealing with the voltage drop, I was thinking it may make sense to rectify that low AC voltage input and parallel a smallish battery bank (size is yet to be determined), then use an off-grid inverter to serve the loads at good voltage. > > I am looking for feedback on this concept. What do you think? > > Also, are there any recommendations for good quality rectifiers with wide input voltage window? > > Thanks in advance for your help > > -- > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] Links: ------ [1] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Apr 21 10:57:42 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 10:57:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rectifier In-Reply-To: <82eaf8d64c0100768364cb22282b438e@redwoodalliance.org> References: <8d995571938d38e34337f76c65c4c3a5@redwoodalliance.org> <82eaf8d64c0100768364cb22282b438e@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: I also don't understand requiring 100 amps for an auxillary dwelling. 230.79 requires a minimum service of 100 amps for a single family dwelling, but that is a service requirement, not a requirement for a feeder to another building.  Even 230.79(D) says all other buildings only require a 60 amp service.    I think we'd all like to know where the AHJ is getting these requirements.  Is it local amendments that were added, or is it just a possible misinterpretation? I suggest possibly reviewing with the AHJ the article 100 definitions of Service (connection to the Utility) and Feeder. Article 230 covers Services and does Not apply to feeders.   The ADU would only need 100 amps if it had its own service meter. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/21/20 10:05 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > The voltage drop recommendations in the code are actually not > requirements, but recommendations. Some locations make them > requirements, but if the AHJ is following the NEC without amendment, > the 2% and 3% recommended drops are only recommendations. > > --- > > > On 2020-04-20 10:56, Mac Lewis wrote: > >> This is an example of where  some code requirements bump up against >> logic.  I believe the AC voltage will be quite usable at the >> site, just not for code requirements of the AHJ, and it may get >> pretty low during high usage times.  They make the electrician size >> it for 100A minimum for an ADU, even though the loads are pretty >> minimal, and then require <5% VD from the main service entrance.  >> That is the requirement for the certificate of occupancy. >>   Luckily, off-grid buildings don't have these requirements at all.  >> I'm going to size it as an off-grid and probably tie it in at some >> point in the future. >> Thanks for the input. >> >> On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 10:20 AM >> > > wrote: >> >> We had a similar situation, and are now feeding a battery bank >> with a pair of 48 V Iota chargers. Iota can run on very low >> voltages. We have one Iota on each leg of the the 120/240 split >> phase to balance the load. It works. >> >> --- >> >> >> On 2020-04-18 21:25, Ray wrote: >> >> When doing the volt drop calculation, be sure to correct for >> temperature, per the note after table 8, chapter 9 of the >> NEC.  The table values default at 167 deg F (75 C).  An >> underground cable will be operating closer to earth >> temperature.   When I run volt drop for a 4/0 copper cable at >> 60 deg F, I'm seeing that you could go over 60 amps and >> maintain a volt drop of 3%. >> >> Not sure what the requirements for the building are, but that >> exceeds most of my off grid systems.  60+ amps at a final >> voltage of 232 v is almost 14kW. Is there air conditioning?  >> What are the calculated loads for this building?  Is the >> inspector actually calling this a problem? >> >> I would do a proof of concept: turn every light on in the >> place, along with some typical appliances (hair dryer, >> microwave) hit a circular saw to really make the point, with >> a DMM plugged in.  I found long ago that actual measured volt >> drop was not as bad as Chapter 9 first predicts. >> >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 4/18/20 3:41 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: >> >> Hi Mac, There are a few questions like is it Al or Cu >> wire, What makes it unusable? >> for Voltage drop, I use Vd=2KIL/CMA for your case the >> unknown is the current.  The installation of an inverter >> with grid support.  Many inverters have this,  you want a >> multimode inverter such as a Schneider, Outback, SolArk >> and I could name at least 4 more.  A normal house will >> run on 30 amps.  So assume 30 amps, >> Vd=2x21.6x30x1100/211600 =6.7 volts >> So if the main house is at 240 Volts the remote house is >> at 233 Volts.  The multimode inverter could be set at >> grid support beyond 30 Amps.  For higher house loads the >> inverter can support up to 30 to 50 amps additional. >> (SolArk is 50 amp) I would add a balancing transformer at >> the end of the line to make the 120 loads balance.  (an >> Autotransformer) such that  120 volts loads are balanced >> and the load is shared between 240-Volt conductors.  >> Based on my customers' experiences I would use AGM LA >> batteries, as I expect low usage of the battery and quick >> recharge, but that is the customer's choice.  I had one >> customer that had 10 years on the float-AGM battery set. >> >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 8:15 AM Mac Lewis >> > wrote: >> >> Hi wrenches, >> I've got a architect client with a sub-optimal power >> situation on one of the projects he is working on.  >> I'm running through a couple of scenarios that may >> work.  Its a ADU (accessory dwelling unit) that is >> about 1100' from power.  The farmer had taken it upon >> himself to bury some 4/0 a few years ago to run power >> out there.  Voltage drop is the big issue and its not >> going to pass the AHJ inspection.  We could just >> ditch the grid and go off-grid, but it seems like a >> shame to not tap into the grid resource.  Instead of >> dealing with the voltage drop, I was thinking it may >> make sense to rectify that low AC voltage input and >> parallel a smallish battery bank (size is yet to be >> determined), then use an off-grid inverter to serve >> the loads at good voltage. >> I am looking for feedback on this concept.  What do >> you think? >> Also, are there any recommendations for good quality >> rectifiers with wide input voltage window? >> Thanks in advance for your help >> -- >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -- >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Apr 21 11:44:36 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 08:44:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stand alone battery charger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6255b9415a48be8cc2f65c9ecf16defb@127.0.0.1> 4 xw's need the external relay contactors not the internals, Right? You will destroy the internals relays. If there was warranty still left, and there is not on 6048, you would need to scrap them for parts. Xw logs welded relay warnings and faults for warranty on all xw's. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 08:27:53 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: I actually need 400Adc at 51V nominal of total charge rate. I was hoping to use 100Adc chargers for redundancy, or some combination of 2-8 chargers to reach the needed current, assuming they can be synced up. I don't think the charging algorithm needs to be complicated. We are basically bulk charging the LiPOs to 80% with the battery BMS controlling the generator. The concept is to get to 80% sometime in the night and solar kicks in during the day to reach 100% using 2-stage charging from the XW charge controllers. The problem I have is the quad XW6048s in the system run at a pretty good load typically... often over 50%. This is off-grid with generator backup. The transfer switches in the XW6048 are causing surges and brownouts when the switched loads are high, especially smart dimmers and televisions. I need seamless power for this client. My thought is to abandon the internal chargers in the XW6048s and just run loads off inverter power full-time. I would charge the batteries with external battery chargers. The tricky part is how to adjust the charge rate based on load, and also based on solar input. I need to limit the net charging current. Of course, I still need 400Adc of charging current, which I'm learning might be hard to find. I don't really want to buy four more XWs - that's a pretty expensive solution. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 4:26 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: I use the CSW 4048. It has a 50 amp charger. A good spare for clients. Get 2 of them. Repurpose an old Radian or XW well over 100A. XW+ is 140adc. DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [5] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: I'm looking for a standalone 51V nominal battery charger suitable for a LiPO battery with 2-stage charging and adjustable setpoints for max current and battery voltage. It would require dual chargers with 100A capacity (I want dual chargers for redundancy so I have at least 50% capacity if one goes bad). Ideally they would sync up so they change stages simultaneously, but I'm not sure if that's really important. Who makes something like that? Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [9] List rules " src="https://webmail.sti.net/tuxedo/program/blocked.gif" alt="" width="0" height="0" /> Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [4] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/818d0fc14d35240172dc7b5e76e9b358639d0699?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.sti.net%2Foffgridsolar%2F&userId=1613865&signature=a20ca8855bc640ef [5] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [6] mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/47d978507b9775cf89c2c4ac9665997e7f3c2d10?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=61d5cd552bcb7a04 [9] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/751a499f55945df4070b9d5521e2cdfbcea242a8?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&userId=1613865&signature=8afbf050d5afe9e0 [10] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/371ce356d356262bb1fe8e503601758f8bac958e?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=eb4588d3c5c730cd [11] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/e9ea24bb0cec5ce64b3012496a3a8b6390d7a863?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=b340c2774b3cc0f9 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Apr 21 12:26:05 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 12:26:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stand alone battery charger In-Reply-To: <825A835D-17AA-489C-871E-E8D5793BBC06@swnl.net> References: <825A835D-17AA-489C-871E-E8D5793BBC06@swnl.net> Message-ID: I have not looked into that, but the problem also exists transferring from inverter to generator. The owner wants "clean" power all the time, and just keeping him on inverter power all the time would be a solution. On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 9:35 AM Tump wrote: > Have you shortened the transfer time from gen to inv, voltage “cut > out"acceptance of the gen in power instead of their 90Vac to say 110V/L ? > Raising the output voltage on the 6848s & gen set for VD/voltage sag issues > under heavy loading? Watch this as sometimes under heavy loading it will > cut the AC input. I use the config tool to address this kind of issue, > gives me a bit more control. > I have a client that has a large external battery charger similar to a > fork truck unit that he alleges causes "dirty power" while the genset is > supplying power to the charger, w/o charging thru the inverters. > Unfortunately w/ the virus I have yet to confirm. > > On Apr 21, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > I actually need 400Adc at 51V nominal of total charge rate. I was hoping > to use 100Adc chargers for redundancy, or some combination of 2-8 chargers > to reach the needed current, assuming they can be synced up. I don't think > the charging algorithm needs to be complicated. We are basically bulk > charging the LiPOs to 80% with the battery BMS controlling the generator. > The concept is to get to 80% sometime in the night and solar kicks in > during the day to reach 100% using 2-stage charging from the XW charge > controllers. > > The problem I have is the quad XW6048s in the system run at a pretty good > load typically... often over 50%. This is off-grid with generator backup. > The transfer switches in the XW6048 are causing surges and brownouts when > the switched loads are high, especially smart dimmers and televisions. I > need seamless power for this client. My thought is to abandon the internal > chargers in the XW6048s and just run loads off inverter power full-time. I > would charge the batteries with external battery chargers. The tricky part > is how to adjust the charge rate based on load, and also based on solar > input. I need to limit the net charging current. Of course, I still need > 400Adc of charging current, which I'm learning might be hard to find. I > don't really want to buy four more XWs - that's a pretty expensive > solution. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 4:26 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > >> I use the CSW 4048. It has a 50 amp charger. A good spare for clients. >> Get 2 of them. Repurpose an old Radian or XW well over 100A. XW+ is 140adc. >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >> >> *"we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> I'm looking for a standalone 51V nominal battery charger suitable for a >> LiPO battery with 2-stage charging and adjustable setpoints for max current >> and battery voltage. It would require dual chargers with 100A capacity (I >> want dual chargers for redundancy so I have at least 50% capacity if one >> goes bad). Ideally they would sync up so they change stages simultaneously, >> but I'm not sure if that's really important. >> >> Who makes something like that? >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Apr 21 12:32:23 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 12:32:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stand alone battery charger In-Reply-To: <6255b9415a48be8cc2f65c9ecf16defb@127.0.0.1> References: <6255b9415a48be8cc2f65c9ecf16defb@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: I'm not sure I follow. I would disconnect the generator AC2 input from the existing quad XW system and move it to the external chargers. Or, I could just turn the charging off by software config in the XWs. If I were to buy four inverter/chargers to serve as "external" chargers for the battery (any brand, really) I would just connect the generator input to AC2 and the battery to the batt terminals of the four inverters. The AC1 input/output would have no connections. The inverter function would be turned off and the charger function turned on. Again, this would be an expensive solution. I'm sure there are some companies making high output DC chargers. I assume a 48V model will be able to go up to 60V charging output, which would be plenty for my 51V nominal system. On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 11:44 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > 4 xw's need the external relay contactors not the internals, Right? > > You will destroy the internals relays. If there was warranty still left, > and there is not on 6048, you would need to scrap them for parts. Xw logs > welded relay warnings and faults for warranty on all xw's. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 08:27:53 -0400, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > I actually need 400Adc at 51V nominal of total charge rate. I was hoping > to use 100Adc chargers for redundancy, or some combination of 2-8 chargers > to reach the needed current, assuming they can be synced up. I don't think > the charging algorithm needs to be complicated. We are basically bulk > charging the LiPOs to 80% with the battery BMS controlling the generator. > The concept is to get to 80% sometime in the night and solar kicks in > during the day to reach 100% using 2-stage charging from the XW charge > controllers. > > The problem I have is the quad XW6048s in the system run at a pretty good > load typically... often over 50%. This is off-grid with generator backup. > The transfer switches in the XW6048 are causing surges and brownouts when > the switched loads are high, especially smart dimmers and televisions. I > need seamless power for this client. My thought is to abandon the internal > chargers in the XW6048s and just run loads off inverter power full-time. I > would charge the batteries with external battery chargers. The tricky part > is how to adjust the charge rate based on load, and also based on solar > input. I need to limit the net charging current. Of course, I still need > 400Adc of charging current, which I'm learning might be hard to find. I > don't really want to buy four more XWs - that's a pretty expensive > solution. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 4:26 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > >> I use the CSW 4048. It has a 50 amp charger. A good spare for clients. >> Get 2 of them. Repurpose an old Radian or XW well over 100A. XW+ is 140adc. >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >> >> *"we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> I'm looking for a standalone 51V nominal battery charger suitable for a >> LiPO battery with 2-stage charging and adjustable setpoints for max current >> and battery voltage. It would require dual chargers with 100A capacity (I >> want dual chargers for redundancy so I have at least 50% capacity if one >> goes bad). Ideally they would sync up so they change stages simultaneously, >> but I'm not sure if that's really important. >> >> Who makes something like that? >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 12:39:19 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:39:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stand alone battery charger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Jason I have done this when l dont want tranfer switch operation but you are looking for 400 amps at 51vdc that around 20 kW of charger. l used golf cart chargers but you may want to consider a forklift charger, they are quick and basic, the BMS/U will manage the charge rates anyway. I would run everything through a shunt for monitoring either through the box or via an eguage and DC shunts. You should be able to let the inverter turn on genny but programmed as a DC charger not AC at least with Outback we can do that. Fun times Jerry NABCEP PV Inspector On Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 5:28 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I actually need 400Adc at 51V nominal of total charge rate. I was hoping > to use 100Adc chargers for redundancy, or some combination of 2-8 chargers > to reach the needed current, assuming they can be synced up. I don't think > the charging algorithm needs to be complicated. We are basically bulk > charging the LiPOs to 80% with the battery BMS controlling the generator. > The concept is to get to 80% sometime in the night and solar kicks in > during the day to reach 100% using 2-stage charging from the XW charge > controllers. > > The problem I have is the quad XW6048s in the system run at a pretty good > load typically... often over 50%. This is off-grid with generator backup. > The transfer switches in the XW6048 are causing surges and brownouts when > the switched loads are high, especially smart dimmers and televisions. I > need seamless power for this client. My thought is to abandon the internal > chargers in the XW6048s and just run loads off inverter power full-time. I > would charge the batteries with external battery chargers. The tricky part > is how to adjust the charge rate based on load, and also based on solar > input. I need to limit the net charging current. Of course, I still need > 400Adc of charging current, which I'm learning might be hard to find. I > don't really want to buy four more XWs - that's a pretty expensive > solution. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 4:26 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > >> I use the CSW 4048. It has a 50 amp charger. A good spare for clients. >> Get 2 of them. Repurpose an old Radian or XW well over 100A. XW+ is 140adc. >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >> >> *"we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> I'm looking for a standalone 51V nominal battery charger suitable for a >> LiPO battery with 2-stage charging and adjustable setpoints for max current >> and battery voltage. It would require dual chargers with 100A capacity (I >> want dual chargers for redundancy so I have at least 50% capacity if one >> goes bad). Ideally they would sync up so they change stages simultaneously, >> but I'm not sure if that's really important. >> >> Who makes something like that? >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 12:44:18 2020 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 12:44:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stand alone battery charger In-Reply-To: References: <6255b9415a48be8cc2f65c9ecf16defb@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Maybe somebody’s already got this thought in here I didn’t look that in-depth Used to be a good suggestion was to get a couple magnums or heart interface inverters and use them strictly as a charger not an inverter So the inverters you have can keep inverting the generator would feed the other inverters that are used strictly as chargers so the transfer switch does not function and you don’t get that instantaneous change when it crosses over with the transfer switch Another advantages is if you have a problem you have inverters on site that you could wire over to to keep things going Just a thought, Bob Ellison > On Apr 21, 2020, at 12:32 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I'm not sure I follow. I would disconnect the generator AC2 input from the existing quad XW system and move it to the external chargers. Or, I could just turn the charging off by software config in the XWs. > > If I were to buy four inverter/chargers to serve as "external" chargers for the battery (any brand, really) I would just connect the generator input to AC2 and the battery to the batt terminals of the four inverters. The AC1 input/output would have no connections. The inverter function would be turned off and the charger function turned on. > > Again, this would be an expensive solution. I'm sure there are some companies making high output DC chargers. I assume a 48V model will be able to go up to 60V charging output, which would be plenty for my 51V nominal system. > > > > > >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 11:44 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> 4 xw's need the external relay contactors not the internals, Right? >> >> You will destroy the internals relays. If there was warranty still left, and there is not on 6048, you would need to scrap them for parts. Xw logs welded relay warnings and faults for warranty on all xw's. >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >>> On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 08:27:53 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> >>> I actually need 400Adc at 51V nominal of total charge rate. I was hoping to use 100Adc chargers for redundancy, or some combination of 2-8 chargers to reach the needed current, assuming they can be synced up. I don't think the charging algorithm needs to be complicated. We are basically bulk charging the LiPOs to 80% with the battery BMS controlling the generator. The concept is to get to 80% sometime in the night and solar kicks in during the day to reach 100% using 2-stage charging from the XW charge controllers. >>> >>> The problem I have is the quad XW6048s in the system run at a pretty good load typically... often over 50%. This is off-grid with generator backup. The transfer switches in the XW6048 are causing surges and brownouts when the switched loads are high, especially smart dimmers and televisions. I need seamless power for this client. My thought is to abandon the internal chargers in the XW6048s and just run loads off inverter power full-time. I would charge the batteries with external battery chargers. The tricky part is how to adjust the charge rate based on load, and also based on solar input. I need to limit the net charging current. Of course, I still need 400Adc of charging current, which I'm learning might be hard to find. I don't really want to buy four more XWs - that's a pretty expensive solution. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 4:26 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>>> I use the CSW 4048. It has a 50 amp charger. A good spare for clients. Get 2 of them. Repurpose an old Radian or XW well over 100A. XW+ is 140adc. >>>> >>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>> >>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060 >>>> On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm looking for a standalone 51V nominal battery charger suitable for a LiPO battery with 2-stage charging and adjustable setpoints for max current and battery voltage. It would require dual chargers with 100A capacity (I want dual chargers for redundancy so I have at least 50% capacity if one goes bad). Ideally they would sync up so they change stages simultaneously, but I'm not sure if that's really important. >>>> >>>> Who makes something like that? >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 12:45:16 2020 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 12:45:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stand alone battery charger In-Reply-To: References: <6255b9415a48be8cc2f65c9ecf16defb@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: And also most battery chargers are not multi stage they’re big taper type chargers They don’t charge nearly as efficiently or as well as a three stage inverter charger Bob Ellison > On Apr 21, 2020, at 12:32 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I'm not sure I follow. I would disconnect the generator AC2 input from the existing quad XW system and move it to the external chargers. Or, I could just turn the charging off by software config in the XWs. > > If I were to buy four inverter/chargers to serve as "external" chargers for the battery (any brand, really) I would just connect the generator input to AC2 and the battery to the batt terminals of the four inverters. The AC1 input/output would have no connections. The inverter function would be turned off and the charger function turned on. > > Again, this would be an expensive solution. I'm sure there are some companies making high output DC chargers. I assume a 48V model will be able to go up to 60V charging output, which would be plenty for my 51V nominal system. > > > > > >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 11:44 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> 4 xw's need the external relay contactors not the internals, Right? >> >> You will destroy the internals relays. If there was warranty still left, and there is not on 6048, you would need to scrap them for parts. Xw logs welded relay warnings and faults for warranty on all xw's. >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >>> On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 08:27:53 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> >>> I actually need 400Adc at 51V nominal of total charge rate. I was hoping to use 100Adc chargers for redundancy, or some combination of 2-8 chargers to reach the needed current, assuming they can be synced up. I don't think the charging algorithm needs to be complicated. We are basically bulk charging the LiPOs to 80% with the battery BMS controlling the generator. The concept is to get to 80% sometime in the night and solar kicks in during the day to reach 100% using 2-stage charging from the XW charge controllers. >>> >>> The problem I have is the quad XW6048s in the system run at a pretty good load typically... often over 50%. This is off-grid with generator backup. The transfer switches in the XW6048 are causing surges and brownouts when the switched loads are high, especially smart dimmers and televisions. I need seamless power for this client. My thought is to abandon the internal chargers in the XW6048s and just run loads off inverter power full-time. I would charge the batteries with external battery chargers. The tricky part is how to adjust the charge rate based on load, and also based on solar input. I need to limit the net charging current. Of course, I still need 400Adc of charging current, which I'm learning might be hard to find. I don't really want to buy four more XWs - that's a pretty expensive solution. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 4:26 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>>> I use the CSW 4048. It has a 50 amp charger. A good spare for clients. Get 2 of them. Repurpose an old Radian or XW well over 100A. XW+ is 140adc. >>>> >>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>> >>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060 >>>> On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm looking for a standalone 51V nominal battery charger suitable for a LiPO battery with 2-stage charging and adjustable setpoints for max current and battery voltage. It would require dual chargers with 100A capacity (I want dual chargers for redundancy so I have at least 50% capacity if one goes bad). Ideally they would sync up so they change stages simultaneously, but I'm not sure if that's really important. >>>> >>>> Who makes something like that? >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Tue Apr 21 12:45:22 2020 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:45:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stand alone battery charger In-Reply-To: References: <6255b9415a48be8cc2f65c9ecf16defb@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Try these guys... Heard Good things. Not sure how they would work with 4 in parallel on the same battery bank. https://quickcharge.com/selct-a-charge-stationary-chargers.html Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ *Become a Certified PV Professional. Register for* *NABCEP CEC 2020* *using promo code* *20RBE* ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 9:44 AM RE Ellison wrote: > Maybe somebody’s already got this thought in here I didn’t look that > in-depth > > Used to be a good suggestion was to get a couple magnums or heart > interface inverters and use them strictly as a charger not an inverter > > So the inverters you have can keep inverting the generator would feed the > other inverters that are used strictly as chargers so the transfer switch > does not function and you don’t get that instantaneous change when it > crosses over with the transfer switch > > Another advantages is if you have a problem you have inverters on site > that you could wire over to to keep things going > > Just a thought, > Bob Ellison > > On Apr 21, 2020, at 12:32 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > I'm not sure I follow. I would disconnect the generator AC2 input from the > existing quad XW system and move it to the external chargers. Or, I could > just turn the charging off by software config in the XWs. > > If I were to buy four inverter/chargers to serve as "external" chargers > for the battery (any brand, really) I would just connect the generator > input to AC2 and the battery to the batt terminals of the four inverters. > The AC1 input/output would have no connections. The inverter function would > be turned off and the charger function turned on. > > Again, this would be an expensive solution. I'm sure there are some > companies making high output DC chargers. I assume a 48V model will be able > to go up to 60V charging output, which would be plenty for my 51V nominal > system. > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 11:44 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > >> 4 xw's need the external relay contactors not the internals, Right? >> >> You will destroy the internals relays. If there was warranty still left, >> and there is not on 6048, you would need to scrap them for parts. Xw logs >> welded relay warnings and faults for warranty on all xw's. >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 08:27:53 -0400, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> I actually need 400Adc at 51V nominal of total charge rate. I was hoping >> to use 100Adc chargers for redundancy, or some combination of 2-8 chargers >> to reach the needed current, assuming they can be synced up. I don't think >> the charging algorithm needs to be complicated. We are basically bulk >> charging the LiPOs to 80% with the battery BMS controlling the generator. >> The concept is to get to 80% sometime in the night and solar kicks in >> during the day to reach 100% using 2-stage charging from the XW charge >> controllers. >> >> The problem I have is the quad XW6048s in the system run at a pretty good >> load typically... often over 50%. This is off-grid with generator backup. >> The transfer switches in the XW6048 are causing surges and brownouts when >> the switched loads are high, especially smart dimmers and televisions. I >> need seamless power for this client. My thought is to abandon the internal >> chargers in the XW6048s and just run loads off inverter power full-time. I >> would charge the batteries with external battery chargers. The tricky part >> is how to adjust the charge rate based on load, and also based on solar >> input. I need to limit the net charging current. Of course, I still need >> 400Adc of charging current, which I'm learning might be hard to find. I >> don't really want to buy four more XWs - that's a pretty expensive >> solution. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 4:26 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < >> offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: >> >>> I use the CSW 4048. It has a 50 amp charger. A good spare for clients. >>> Get 2 of them. Repurpose an old Radian or XW well over 100A. XW+ is 140adc. >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >>> >>> *"we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>> I'm looking for a standalone 51V nominal battery charger suitable for a >>> LiPO battery with 2-stage charging and adjustable setpoints for max current >>> and battery voltage. It would require dual chargers with 100A capacity (I >>> want dual chargers for redundancy so I have at least 50% capacity if one >>> goes bad). Ideally they would sync up so they change stages simultaneously, >>> but I'm not sure if that's really important. >>> >>> Who makes something like that? >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Apr 21 12:41:53 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:41:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stand alone battery charger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <71b845b936720a8bfacceb5e7f6d0c7f@127.0.0.1> See screen shot. The external is sold by Schneider but you can also obtain them. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:39:19 -0700, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches, Jason I have done this when l dont want tranfer switch operation but you are looking for 400 amps at 51vdc that around 20 kW of charger. l used golf cart chargers but you may want to consider a forklift charger, they are quick and basic, the BMS/U will manage the charge rates anyway. I would run everything through a shunt for monitoring either through the box or via an eguage and DC shunts. You should be able to let the inverter turn on genny but programmed as a DC charger not AC at least with Outback we can do that. Fun times Jerry NABCEP PV Inspector On Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 5:28 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: I actually need 400Adc at 51V nominal of total charge rate. I was hoping to use 100Adc chargers for redundancy, or some combination of 2-8 chargers to reach the needed current, assuming they can be synced up. I don't think the charging algorithm needs to be complicated. We are basically bulk charging the LiPOs to 80% with the battery BMS controlling the generator. The concept is to get to 80% sometime in the night and solar kicks in during the day to reach 100% using 2-stage charging from the XW charge controllers. The problem I have is the quad XW6048s in the system run at a pretty good load typically... often over 50%. This is off-grid with generator backup. The transfer switches in the XW6048 are causing surges and brownouts when the switched loads are high, especially smart dimmers and televisions. I need seamless power for this client. My thought is to abandon the internal chargers in the XW6048s and just run loads off inverter power full-time. I would charge the batteries with external battery chargers. The tricky part is how to adjust the charge rate based on load, and also based on solar input. I need to limit the net charging current. Of course, I still need 400Adc of charging current, which I'm learning might be hard to find. I don't really want to buy four more XWs - that's a pretty expensive solution. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 4:26 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: I use the CSW 4048. It has a 50 amp charger. A good spare for clients. Get 2 of them. Repurpose an old Radian or XW well over 100A. XW+ is 140adc. DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [5] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [6] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: I'm looking for a standalone 51V nominal battery charger suitable for a LiPO battery with 2-stage charging and adjustable setpoints for max current and battery voltage. It would require dual chargers with 100A capacity (I want dual chargers for redundancy so I have at least 50% capacity if one goes bad). Ideally they would sync up so they change stages simultaneously, but I'm not sure if that's really important. Who makes something like that? Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] List rules " src="https://webmail.sti.net/tuxedo/program/blocked.gif" alt="" width="0" height="0" /> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [15] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [17] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com [4] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [5] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/818d0fc14d35240172dc7b5e76e9b358639d0699?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.sti.net%2Foffgridsolar%2F&userId=1613865&signature=a20ca8855bc640ef [6] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [7] mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com [8] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/47d978507b9775cf89c2c4ac9665997e7f3c2d10?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=61d5cd552bcb7a04 [10] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/751a499f55945df4070b9d5521e2cdfbcea242a8?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&userId=1613865&signature=8afbf050d5afe9e0 [11] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/371ce356d356262bb1fe8e503601758f8bac958e?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=eb4588d3c5c730cd [12] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/e9ea24bb0cec5ce64b3012496a3a8b6390d7a863?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=b340c2774b3cc0f9 [13] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [16] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [17] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: GoToWebinar 003.png Type: image/png Size: 413777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Apr 21 14:29:49 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 14:29:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stand alone battery charger In-Reply-To: References: <825A835D-17AA-489C-871E-E8D5793BBC06@swnl.net> Message-ID: <121978d0-8bca-2c5d-4db8-418f3bf135c8@solarray.com> Are you sure its just the transfer switching causing problems? I've seen quite a bit of lights dimming, flickering, and strangeness with XW inverters ( and many others) just in normal operation.  Certain LEDs are particularly sensitive, just another appliance coming on can cause noticeable flicker that bothers some clients.  Our solution was to try different brands of LEDs till we found ones that had less trouble.  I recall the Phillips ones being good, but you would have to test a few to see. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/21/20 12:26 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > I have not looked into that, but the problem also exists > transferring from inverter to generator. The owner wants "clean" power > all the time, and just keeping him on inverter power all the time > would be a solution. > > * > > * > > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 9:35 AM Tump > wrote: > > Have you shortened the transfer time from gen to inv, voltage “cut > out"acceptance of the gen in power instead of their 90Vac to say > 110V/L ? Raising the output voltage on the 6848s & gen set for > VD/voltage sag issues under heavy loading? Watch this as sometimes > under heavy loading it will cut the AC input. I use the config > tool to address this kind of issue, gives me a bit more control. >  I have a client that has a large external battery charger similar > to a fork truck unit that he alleges causes "dirty power" while > the genset is supplying power to the charger, w/o charging thru > the inverters. Unfortunately w/ the virus I have yet to confirm. >> On Apr 21, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jason Szumlanski >> > > wrote: >> >> I actually need 400Adc at 51V nominal of total charge rate. I was >> hoping to use 100Adc chargers for redundancy, or some combination >> of 2-8 chargers to reach the needed current, assuming they can be >> synced up. I don't think the charging algorithm needs to be >> complicated. We are basically bulk charging the LiPOs to 80% with >> the battery BMS controlling the generator. The concept is to get >> to 80% sometime in the night and solar kicks in during the day to >> reach 100% using 2-stage charging from the XW charge controllers. >> >> The problem I have is the quad XW6048s in the system run at a >> pretty good load typically... often over 50%. This is off-grid >> with generator backup. The transfer switches in the XW6048 are >> causing surges and brownouts when the switched loads are high, >> especially smart dimmers and televisions. I need seamless power >> for this client. My thought is to abandon the internal chargers >> in the XW6048s and just run loads off inverter power full-time. I >> would charge the batteries with external battery chargers. The >> tricky part is how to adjust the charge rate based on load, and >> also based on solar input. I need to limit the net charging >> current. Of course, I still need 400Adc of charging current, >> which I'm learning might be hard to find. I don't really want to >> buy four more XWs - that's a pretty expensive solution. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 4:26 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> > wrote: >> >> I use the CSW 4048. It has a 50 amp charger. A good spare for >> clients. Get 2 of them. Repurpose an old Radian or XW well >> over 100A. XW+ is 140adc. >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >> >> *"we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski >> > > wrote: >> >>> I'm looking for a standalone 51V nominal battery charger >>> suitable for a LiPO battery with 2-stage charging and >>> adjustable setpoints for max current and battery voltage. It >>> would require dual chargers with 100A capacity (I want dual >>> chargers for redundancy so I have at least 50% capacity if >>> one goes bad). Ideally they would sync up so they change >>> stages simultaneously, but I'm not sure if that's really >>> important. >>> Who makes something like that? >>> Jason Szumlanski >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > >> *Tump at swnl.net**www.SWNL.net* >> Solarwinds Northernlights *//* >> */   Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California/**/ >> /**/ 207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401 /* >> *//**/Blair "TUMP" May/* >> >> */               ********  MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> /**//**/NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"/**/ >> /**/ >> ********  MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> /**/        Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"/* >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Apr 21 16:27:04 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:27:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stand alone battery charger In-Reply-To: <121978d0-8bca-2c5d-4db8-418f3bf135c8@solarray.com> References: <825A835D-17AA-489C-871E-E8D5793BBC06@swnl.net> <121978d0-8bca-2c5d-4db8-418f3bf135c8@solarray.com> Message-ID: The issue is during switching only. During inverter operation everything is silky smooth. During generator operation things are mostly smooth, but large loads that come on or off during heavy charging can cause some surging, but that is more a function of a junky generator (which was just replaced with a better unit). So the natural conclusion by the client is let's just run on battery/inverter all the time. And it does make sense. And it's his money. *Jason Szumlanski* Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group (239) 491-8010 (239) 410-4985 www.FloridaSolarDesignGroup.com [image: Facebook] [image: Twitter] [image: Youtube] On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 2:29 PM Ray wrote: > Are you sure its just the transfer switching causing problems? I've seen > quite a bit of lights dimming, flickering, and strangeness with XW > inverters ( and many others) just in normal operation. Certain LEDs are > particularly sensitive, just another appliance coming on can cause > noticeable flicker that bothers some clients. Our solution was to try > different brands of LEDs till we found ones that had less trouble. I > recall the Phillips ones being good, but you would have to test a few to > see. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 4/21/20 12:26 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I have not looked into that, but the problem also exists transferring from > inverter to generator. The owner wants "clean" power all the time, and just > keeping him on inverter power all the time would be a solution. > > > > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 9:35 AM Tump wrote: > >> Have you shortened the transfer time from gen to inv, voltage “cut >> out"acceptance of the gen in power instead of their 90Vac to say 110V/L ? >> Raising the output voltage on the 6848s & gen set for VD/voltage sag issues >> under heavy loading? Watch this as sometimes under heavy loading it will >> cut the AC input. I use the config tool to address this kind of issue, >> gives me a bit more control. >> I have a client that has a large external battery charger similar to a >> fork truck unit that he alleges causes "dirty power" while the genset is >> supplying power to the charger, w/o charging thru the inverters. >> Unfortunately w/ the virus I have yet to confirm. >> >> On Apr 21, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> I actually need 400Adc at 51V nominal of total charge rate. I was hoping >> to use 100Adc chargers for redundancy, or some combination of 2-8 chargers >> to reach the needed current, assuming they can be synced up. I don't think >> the charging algorithm needs to be complicated. We are basically bulk >> charging the LiPOs to 80% with the battery BMS controlling the generator. >> The concept is to get to 80% sometime in the night and solar kicks in >> during the day to reach 100% using 2-stage charging from the XW charge >> controllers. >> >> The problem I have is the quad XW6048s in the system run at a pretty good >> load typically... often over 50%. This is off-grid with generator backup. >> The transfer switches in the XW6048 are causing surges and brownouts when >> the switched loads are high, especially smart dimmers and televisions. I >> need seamless power for this client. My thought is to abandon the internal >> chargers in the XW6048s and just run loads off inverter power full-time. I >> would charge the batteries with external battery chargers. The tricky part >> is how to adjust the charge rate based on load, and also based on solar >> input. I need to limit the net charging current. Of course, I still need >> 400Adc of charging current, which I'm learning might be hard to find. I >> don't really want to buy four more XWs - that's a pretty expensive >> solution. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 4:26 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < >> offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: >> >>> I use the CSW 4048. It has a 50 amp charger. A good spare for clients. >>> Get 2 of them. Repurpose an old Radian or XW well over 100A. XW+ is 140adc. >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >>> >>> *"we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>> I'm looking for a standalone 51V nominal battery charger suitable for a >>> LiPO battery with 2-stage charging and adjustable setpoints for max current >>> and battery voltage. It would require dual chargers with 100A capacity (I >>> want dual chargers for redundancy so I have at least 50% capacity if one >>> goes bad). Ideally they would sync up so they change stages simultaneously, >>> but I'm not sure if that's really important. >>> >>> Who makes something like that? >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* >> * 207-832-7574 Cl. >> 610-517-8401 * >> *Blair "TUMP" May* >> >> >> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* >> >> >> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Apr 21 16:33:32 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:33:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stand alone battery charger In-Reply-To: References: <6255b9415a48be8cc2f65c9ecf16defb@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Thanks, Steve. Parallel operation might be tricky, but I'm sure they have dealt with this before. I'll check it out. On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 12:45 PM Steve Higgins wrote: > Try these guys... Heard Good things. Not sure how they would work with 4 > in parallel on the same battery bank. > > https://quickcharge.com/selct-a-charge-stationary-chargers.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > <#m_3535228063810942375_SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *Become a Certified PV Professional. Register for* *NABCEP CEC 2020* > > *using promo code* *20RBE* > > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 9:44 AM RE Ellison wrote: > >> Maybe somebody’s already got this thought in here I didn’t look that >> in-depth >> >> Used to be a good suggestion was to get a couple magnums or heart >> interface inverters and use them strictly as a charger not an inverter >> >> So the inverters you have can keep inverting the generator would feed the >> other inverters that are used strictly as chargers so the transfer switch >> does not function and you don’t get that instantaneous change when it >> crosses over with the transfer switch >> >> Another advantages is if you have a problem you have inverters on site >> that you could wire over to to keep things going >> >> Just a thought, >> Bob Ellison >> >> On Apr 21, 2020, at 12:32 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> I'm not sure I follow. I would disconnect the generator AC2 input from >> the existing quad XW system and move it to the external chargers. Or, I >> could just turn the charging off by software config in the XWs. >> >> If I were to buy four inverter/chargers to serve as "external" chargers >> for the battery (any brand, really) I would just connect the generator >> input to AC2 and the battery to the batt terminals of the four inverters. >> The AC1 input/output would have no connections. The inverter function would >> be turned off and the charger function turned on. >> >> Again, this would be an expensive solution. I'm sure there are some >> companies making high output DC chargers. I assume a 48V model will be able >> to go up to 60V charging output, which would be plenty for my 51V nominal >> system. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 11:44 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < >> offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: >> >>> 4 xw's need the external relay contactors not the internals, Right? >>> >>> You will destroy the internals relays. If there was warranty still left, >>> and there is not on 6048, you would need to scrap them for parts. Xw logs >>> welded relay warnings and faults for warranty on all xw's. >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 08:27:53 -0400, Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>> I actually need 400Adc at 51V nominal of total charge rate. I was hoping >>> to use 100Adc chargers for redundancy, or some combination of 2-8 chargers >>> to reach the needed current, assuming they can be synced up. I don't think >>> the charging algorithm needs to be complicated. We are basically bulk >>> charging the LiPOs to 80% with the battery BMS controlling the generator. >>> The concept is to get to 80% sometime in the night and solar kicks in >>> during the day to reach 100% using 2-stage charging from the XW charge >>> controllers. >>> >>> The problem I have is the quad XW6048s in the system run at a pretty >>> good load typically... often over 50%. This is off-grid with generator >>> backup. The transfer switches in the XW6048 are causing surges and >>> brownouts when the switched loads are high, especially smart dimmers and >>> televisions. I need seamless power for this client. My thought is to >>> abandon the internal chargers in the XW6048s and just run loads off >>> inverter power full-time. I would charge the batteries with external >>> battery chargers. The tricky part is how to adjust the charge rate based on >>> load, and also based on solar input. I need to limit the net charging >>> current. Of course, I still need 400Adc of charging current, which I'm >>> learning might be hard to find. I don't really want to buy four more XWs - >>> that's a pretty expensive solution. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 4:26 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < >>> offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: >>> >>>> I use the CSW 4048. It has a 50 amp charger. A good spare for clients. >>>> Get 2 of them. Repurpose an old Radian or XW well over 100A. XW+ is 140adc. >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >>>> >>>> *"we go where powerlines don't" >>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski < >>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm looking for a standalone 51V nominal battery charger suitable for a >>>> LiPO battery with 2-stage charging and adjustable setpoints for max current >>>> and battery voltage. It would require dual chargers with 100A capacity (I >>>> want dual chargers for redundancy so I have at least 50% capacity if one >>>> goes bad). Ideally they would sync up so they change stages simultaneously, >>>> but I'm not sure if that's really important. >>>> >>>> Who makes something like that? >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Apr 21 16:39:33 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:39:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stand alone battery charger In-Reply-To: References: <6255b9415a48be8cc2f65c9ecf16defb@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: I'm not too concerned with multi-stage charging. I need to check with the battery manufacturer, but I'm pretty sure they are not, either. The BMS is set up to start the AGS at 20% SOC and charge to 80% SOC at which time the BMS turns off the generator. So we are just talking about bulk charging here. We rely on the XW MPPTs to get the battery up to 100% with solar during the day and maintain the loads. The battery capacity is currently such that one 20%-80% charge per night occurs on almost every night. The solar capacity is ample. The battery capacity is way too low. It's a long story, as these things often tend to be. There is a complex set of requirements for me to increase charge rate, reduce fuel usage, reduce generator run time (and wear/maintenance), and provide flicker-free luxurious power to a demanding client. Thanks, everyone for the input. Jason On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 12:45 PM RE Ellison wrote: > And also most battery chargers are not multi stage they’re big taper type > chargers > > They don’t charge nearly as efficiently or as well as a three stage > inverter charger > > Bob Ellison > > On Apr 21, 2020, at 12:32 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > I'm not sure I follow. I would disconnect the generator AC2 input from the > existing quad XW system and move it to the external chargers. Or, I could > just turn the charging off by software config in the XWs. > > If I were to buy four inverter/chargers to serve as "external" chargers > for the battery (any brand, really) I would just connect the generator > input to AC2 and the battery to the batt terminals of the four inverters. > The AC1 input/output would have no connections. The inverter function would > be turned off and the charger function turned on. > > Again, this would be an expensive solution. I'm sure there are some > companies making high output DC chargers. I assume a 48V model will be able > to go up to 60V charging output, which would be plenty for my 51V nominal > system. > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 11:44 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > >> 4 xw's need the external relay contactors not the internals, Right? >> >> You will destroy the internals relays. If there was warranty still left, >> and there is not on 6048, you would need to scrap them for parts. Xw logs >> welded relay warnings and faults for warranty on all xw's. >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 08:27:53 -0400, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> I actually need 400Adc at 51V nominal of total charge rate. I was hoping >> to use 100Adc chargers for redundancy, or some combination of 2-8 chargers >> to reach the needed current, assuming they can be synced up. I don't think >> the charging algorithm needs to be complicated. We are basically bulk >> charging the LiPOs to 80% with the battery BMS controlling the generator. >> The concept is to get to 80% sometime in the night and solar kicks in >> during the day to reach 100% using 2-stage charging from the XW charge >> controllers. >> >> The problem I have is the quad XW6048s in the system run at a pretty good >> load typically... often over 50%. This is off-grid with generator backup. >> The transfer switches in the XW6048 are causing surges and brownouts when >> the switched loads are high, especially smart dimmers and televisions. I >> need seamless power for this client. My thought is to abandon the internal >> chargers in the XW6048s and just run loads off inverter power full-time. I >> would charge the batteries with external battery chargers. The tricky part >> is how to adjust the charge rate based on load, and also based on solar >> input. I need to limit the net charging current. Of course, I still need >> 400Adc of charging current, which I'm learning might be hard to find. I >> don't really want to buy four more XWs - that's a pretty expensive >> solution. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 4:26 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < >> offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: >> >>> I use the CSW 4048. It has a 50 amp charger. A good spare for clients. >>> Get 2 of them. Repurpose an old Radian or XW well over 100A. XW+ is 140adc. >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >>> >>> *"we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>> I'm looking for a standalone 51V nominal battery charger suitable for a >>> LiPO battery with 2-stage charging and adjustable setpoints for max current >>> and battery voltage. It would require dual chargers with 100A capacity (I >>> want dual chargers for redundancy so I have at least 50% capacity if one >>> goes bad). Ideally they would sync up so they change stages simultaneously, >>> but I'm not sure if that's really important. >>> >>> Who makes something like that? >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at willpowerelect.com Tue Apr 21 17:21:51 2020 From: bruce at willpowerelect.com (bruce at willpowerelect.com) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 14:21:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stand alone battery charger Message-ID: <20200421142151.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.fd476b3a9b.wbe@email26.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/jpeg Size: 4536 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: icon_sm_facebook.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1686 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: icon_sm_twitter.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1016 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Apr 22 08:18:03 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 08:18:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stand alone battery charger In-Reply-To: References: <825A835D-17AA-489C-871E-E8D5793BBC06@swnl.net> <121978d0-8bca-2c5d-4db8-418f3bf135c8@solarray.com> Message-ID: <75845AA6-5F1D-4437-9B95-71365502B143@swnl.net> KISS…. have you checked the low voltage setting on AC2? Make sure that is is not set to the default settings. AC Transfer time? I set to the lowest time, I believe its 1. You also have 4 inverters what IS the charge setting of these units? "Gen assist" enabled? Info from Schneider engineer below; The AGS will cause XW+ to disconnect the generator when a stop signal is sent (Auto Stop) for the generator cool down period (user adjustable-AGS>Advanced Settings>Cfg Gen). If you are just manually stopping the generator, then it is possible for the XW+ to stay connected all the way down to 80V unless you increase that low AC value in XW+>Advanced Settings>AC Settings menu. AC2 transfer time may also be adjusted (default is 40s) using Combox, Gateway or Config Tool. This is the time it takes to switch from gen to inverting. Hope that helps, Eric > On Apr 21, 2020, at 4:27 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > The issue is during switching only. During inverter operation everything is silky smooth. During generator operation things are mostly smooth, but large loads that come on or off during heavy charging can cause some surging, but that is more a function of a junky generator (which was just replaced with a better unit). > > So the natural conclusion by the client is let's just run on battery/inverter all the time. And it does make sense. And it's his money. > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > (239) 491-8010 (239) 410-4985 <> > www.FloridaSolarDesignGroup.com > > > > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 2:29 PM Ray > wrote: > Are you sure its just the transfer switching causing problems? I've seen quite a bit of lights dimming, flickering, and strangeness with XW inverters ( and many others) just in normal operation. Certain LEDs are particularly sensitive, just another appliance coming on can cause noticeable flicker that bothers some clients. Our solution was to try different brands of LEDs till we found ones that had less trouble. I recall the Phillips ones being good, but you would have to test a few to see. > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 4/21/20 12:26 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> I have not looked into that, but the problem also exists transferring from inverter to generator. The owner wants "clean" power all the time, and just keeping him on inverter power all the time would be a solution. >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 9:35 AM Tump > wrote: >> Have you shortened the transfer time from gen to inv, voltage “cut out"acceptance of the gen in power instead of their 90Vac to say 110V/L ? Raising the output voltage on the 6848s & gen set for VD/voltage sag issues under heavy loading? Watch this as sometimes under heavy loading it will cut the AC input. I use the config tool to address this kind of issue, gives me a bit more control. >> I have a client that has a large external battery charger similar to a fork truck unit that he alleges causes "dirty power" while the genset is supplying power to the charger, w/o charging thru the inverters. Unfortunately w/ the virus I have yet to confirm. >>> On Apr 21, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: >>> >>> I actually need 400Adc at 51V nominal of total charge rate. I was hoping to use 100Adc chargers for redundancy, or some combination of 2-8 chargers to reach the needed current, assuming they can be synced up. I don't think the charging algorithm needs to be complicated. We are basically bulk charging the LiPOs to 80% with the battery BMS controlling the generator. The concept is to get to 80% sometime in the night and solar kicks in during the day to reach 100% using 2-stage charging from the XW charge controllers. >>> >>> The problem I have is the quad XW6048s in the system run at a pretty good load typically... often over 50%. This is off-grid with generator backup. The transfer switches in the XW6048 are causing surges and brownouts when the switched loads are high, especially smart dimmers and televisions. I need seamless power for this client. My thought is to abandon the internal chargers in the XW6048s and just run loads off inverter power full-time. I would charge the batteries with external battery chargers. The tricky part is how to adjust the charge rate based on load, and also based on solar input. I need to limit the net charging current. Of course, I still need 400Adc of charging current, which I'm learning might be hard to find. I don't really want to buy four more XWs - that's a pretty expensive solution. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 4:26 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > wrote: >>> I use the CSW 4048. It has a 50 amp charger. A good spare for clients. Get 2 of them. Repurpose an old Radian or XW well over 100A. XW+ is 140adc. >>> >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060 >>> On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: >>> >>>> I'm looking for a standalone 51V nominal battery charger suitable for a LiPO battery with 2-stage charging and adjustable setpoints for max current and battery voltage. It would require dual chargers with 100A capacity (I want dual chargers for redundancy so I have at least 50% capacity if one goes bad). Ideally they would sync up so they change stages simultaneously, but I'm not sure if that's really important. >>>> >>>> Who makes something like that? >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> Tump at swnl.net <> www.SWNL.net <> >>> Solarwinds Northernlights >>> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >>> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >>> Blair "TUMP" May >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >>> >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Apr 22 09:18:26 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 09:18:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stand alone battery charger In-Reply-To: <75845AA6-5F1D-4437-9B95-71365502B143@swnl.net> References: <825A835D-17AA-489C-871E-E8D5793BBC06@swnl.net> <121978d0-8bca-2c5d-4db8-418f3bf135c8@solarray.com> <75845AA6-5F1D-4437-9B95-71365502B143@swnl.net> Message-ID: Interesting. I am going to look into that. We are manually stopping the generator (the BMS kills the two-wire start signal). I don't think the AC2 transfer time matters much in terms of solving the clients complaints, but I will play with that also. Thanks! On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 8:18 AM Tump wrote: > KISS…. have you checked the low voltage setting on AC2? Make sure that is > is not set to the default settings. AC Transfer time? I set to > the lowest time, I believe its 1. > You also have 4 inverters what IS the charge setting of these units? "Gen > assist" enabled? > Info from Schneider engineer below; > The AGS will cause XW+ to disconnect the generator when a stop signal is > sent (Auto Stop) for the generator cool down period (user > adjustable-AGS>Advanced Settings>Cfg Gen). If you are just manually > stopping the generator, then it is possible for the XW+ to stay connected > all the way down to 80V unless you increase that low AC value in > XW+>Advanced Settings>AC Settings menu. *AC2 transfer time may also be > adjusted (default is 40s) using Combox, Gateway or Config Tool. This is > the time it takes to switch from gen to inverting. * > Hope that helps, > Eric > > On Apr 21, 2020, at 4:27 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > The issue is during switching only. During inverter operation everything > is silky smooth. During generator operation things are mostly smooth, but > large loads that come on or off during heavy charging can cause some > surging, but that is more a function of a junky generator (which was just > replaced with a better unit). > > So the natural conclusion by the client is let's just run on > battery/inverter all the time. And it does make sense. And it's his money. > > > > > > *Jason Szumlanski* > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > (239) 491-8010 (239) 410-4985 > www.FloridaSolarDesignGroup.com > > [image: Facebook] > [image: > Twitter] > [image: > Youtube] > > > > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 2:29 PM Ray wrote: > >> Are you sure its just the transfer switching causing problems? I've seen >> quite a bit of lights dimming, flickering, and strangeness with XW >> inverters ( and many others) just in normal operation. Certain LEDs are >> particularly sensitive, just another appliance coming on can cause >> noticeable flicker that bothers some clients. Our solution was to try >> different brands of LEDs till we found ones that had less trouble. I >> recall the Phillips ones being good, but you would have to test a few to >> see. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 4/21/20 12:26 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> >> I have not looked into that, but the problem also exists >> transferring from inverter to generator. The owner wants "clean" power all >> the time, and just keeping him on inverter power all the time would be a >> solution. >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 9:35 AM Tump wrote: >> >>> Have you shortened the transfer time from gen to inv, voltage “cut >>> out"acceptance of the gen in power instead of their 90Vac to say 110V/L ? >>> Raising the output voltage on the 6848s & gen set for VD/voltage sag issues >>> under heavy loading? Watch this as sometimes under heavy loading it will >>> cut the AC input. I use the config tool to address this kind of issue, >>> gives me a bit more control. >>> I have a client that has a large external battery charger similar to a >>> fork truck unit that he alleges causes "dirty power" while the genset is >>> supplying power to the charger, w/o charging thru the inverters. >>> Unfortunately w/ the virus I have yet to confirm. >>> >>> On Apr 21, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>> I actually need 400Adc at 51V nominal of total charge rate. I was hoping >>> to use 100Adc chargers for redundancy, or some combination of 2-8 chargers >>> to reach the needed current, assuming they can be synced up. I don't think >>> the charging algorithm needs to be complicated. We are basically bulk >>> charging the LiPOs to 80% with the battery BMS controlling the generator. >>> The concept is to get to 80% sometime in the night and solar kicks in >>> during the day to reach 100% using 2-stage charging from the XW charge >>> controllers. >>> >>> The problem I have is the quad XW6048s in the system run at a pretty >>> good load typically... often over 50%. This is off-grid with generator >>> backup. The transfer switches in the XW6048 are causing surges and >>> brownouts when the switched loads are high, especially smart dimmers and >>> televisions. I need seamless power for this client. My thought is to >>> abandon the internal chargers in the XW6048s and just run loads off >>> inverter power full-time. I would charge the batteries with external >>> battery chargers. The tricky part is how to adjust the charge rate based on >>> load, and also based on solar input. I need to limit the net charging >>> current. Of course, I still need 400Adc of charging current, which I'm >>> learning might be hard to find. I don't really want to buy four more XWs - >>> that's a pretty expensive solution. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 4:26 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < >>> offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: >>> >>>> I use the CSW 4048. It has a 50 amp charger. A good spare for clients. >>>> Get 2 of them. Repurpose an old Radian or XW well over 100A. XW+ is 140adc. >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >>>> >>>> *"we go where powerlines don't" >>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski < >>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm looking for a standalone 51V nominal battery charger suitable for a >>>> LiPO battery with 2-stage charging and adjustable setpoints for max current >>>> and battery voltage. It would require dual chargers with 100A capacity (I >>>> want dual chargers for redundancy so I have at least 50% capacity if one >>>> goes bad). Ideally they would sync up so they change stages simultaneously, >>>> but I'm not sure if that's really important. >>>> >>>> Who makes something like that? >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* >>> Solarwinds Northernlights >>> * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* >>> * 207-832-7574 Cl. >>> 610-517-8401 * >>> *Blair "TUMP" May* >>> >>> >>> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * >>> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* >>> >>> >>> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** >>> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Apr 22 11:06:48 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 08:06:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stand alone battery charger In-Reply-To: References: <825A835D-17AA-489C-871E-E8D5793BBC06@swnl.net> <121978d0-8bca-2c5d-4db8-418f3bf135c8@solarray.com> <75845AA6-5F1D-4437-9B95-71365502B143@swnl.net> Message-ID: Also consider that the engineer is calling out xw+6848 which does have firmware support that stopped on the old graybox xw6048. Make sure you at least have the latest firmware in your 6048s' and that it is all the same. It is on the schneider site under discontinued products. Good Luck with this! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 09:18:26 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Interesting. I am going to look into that. We are manually stopping the generator (the BMS kills the two-wire start signal). I don't think the AC2 transfer time matters much in terms of solving the clients complaints, but I will play with that also. Thanks! On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 8:18 AM Tump wrote: KISS.... have you checked the low voltage setting on AC2? Make sure that is is not set to the default settings. AC Transfer time? I set to the lowest time, I believe its 1. You also have 4 inverters what IS the charge setting of these units? "Gen assist" enabled? Info from Schneider engineer below; The AGS will cause XW+ to disconnect the generator when a stop signal is sent (Auto Stop) for the generator cool down period (user adjustable-AGS>Advanced Settings>Cfg Gen). If you are just manually stopping the generator, then it is possible for the XW+ to stay connected all the way down to 80V unless you increase that low AC value in XW+>Advanced Settings>AC Settings menu. _AC2 TRANSFER TIME MAY ALSO BE ADJUSTED (DEFAULT IS 40S) USING COMBOX, GATEWAY OR CONFIG TOOL. THIS IS THE TIME IT TAKES TO SWITCH FROM GEN TO INVERTING. _ Hope that helps, Eric On Apr 21, 2020, at 4:27 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: The issue is during switching only. During inverter operation everything is silky smooth. During generator operation things are mostly smooth, but large loads that come on or off during heavy charging can cause some surging, but that is more a function of a junky generator (which was just replaced with a better unit). So the natural conclusion by the client is let's just run on battery/inverter all the time. And it does make sense. And it's his money. (239) 410-4985 On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 2:29 PM Ray wrote: Are you sure its just the transfer switching causing problems? I've seen quite a bit of lights dimming, flickering, and strangeness with XW inverters ( and many others) just in normal operation. Certain LEDs are particularly sensitive, just another appliance coming on can cause noticeable flicker that bothers some clients. Our solution was to try different brands of LEDs till we found ones that had less trouble. I recall the Phillips ones being good, but you would have to test a few to see. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/21/20 12:26 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: I have not looked into that, but the problem also exists transferring from inverter to generator. The owner wants "clean" power all the time, and just keeping him on inverter power all the time would be a solution. On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 9:35 AM Tump wrote: Have you shortened the transfer time from gen to inv, voltage "cut out"acceptance of the gen in power instead of their 90Vac to say 110V/L ? Raising the output voltage on the 6848s border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"> On Apr 21, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: I actually need 400Adc at 51V nominal of total charge rate. I was hoping to use 100Adc chargers for redundancy, or some combination of 2-8 chargers to reach the needed current, assuming they can be synced up. I don't think the charging algorithm needs to be complicated. We are basically bulk charging the LiPOs to 80% with the battery BMS controlling the generator. The concept is to get to 80% sometime in the night and solar kicks in during the day to reach 100% using 2-stage charging from the XW charge controllers. The problem I have is the quad XW6048s in the system run at a pretty good load typically... often over 50%. This is off-grid with generator backup. The transfer switches in the XW6048 are causing surges and brownouts when the switched loads are high, especially smart dimmers and televisions. I need seamless power for this client. My thought is to abandon the internal chargers in the XW6048s and just run loads off inverter power full-time. I would charge the batteries with external battery chargers. The tricky part is how to adjust the charge rate based on load, and also based on solar input. I need to limit the net charging current. Of course, I still need 400Adc of charging current, which I'm learning might be hard to find. I don't really want to buy four more XWs - that's a pretty expensive solution. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 4:26 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: I use the CSW 4048. It has a 50 amp charger. A good spare for clients. Get 2 of them. Repurpose an old Radian or XW well over 100A. XW+ is 140adc. DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [15] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [16] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: I'm looking for a standalone 51V nominal battery charger suitable for a LiPO battery with 2-stage charging and adjustable setpoints for max current and battery voltage. It would require dual chargers with 100A capacity (I want dual chargers for redundancy so I have at least 50% capacity if one goes bad). Ideally they would sync up so they change stages simultaneously, but I'm not sure if that's really important. Who makes something like that? Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [18] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [20] List rules " alt="" width="0" height="0" /> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [23] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [24] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [25] List rules border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"> TUMP at SWNL.NET WWW.SWNL.NET Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ _ SERVING MID COAST MAINE "> _ 207-832-7574 CL. 610-517-8401 _ _ __BLAIR "TUMP" MAY_ ******** 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URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Apr 22 11:30:23 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:30:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stand alone battery charger In-Reply-To: <6255b9415a48be8cc2f65c9ecf16defb@127.0.0.1> References: <6255b9415a48be8cc2f65c9ecf16defb@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Marysville Marine can replace XW welded relays. PJ GONZALEZ --- On 2020-04-21 11:44, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > 4 xw's need the external relay contactors not the internals, Right? > > You will destroy the internals relays. If there was warranty still left, and there is not on 6048, you would need to scrap them for parts. Xw logs welded relay warnings and faults for warranty on all xw's. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 08:27:53 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I actually need 400Adc at 51V nominal of total charge rate. I was hoping to use 100Adc chargers for redundancy, or some combination of 2-8 chargers to reach the needed current, assuming they can be synced up. I don't think the charging algorithm needs to be complicated. We are basically bulk charging the LiPOs to 80% with the battery BMS controlling the generator. The concept is to get to 80% sometime in the night and solar kicks in during the day to reach 100% using 2-stage charging from the XW charge controllers. > > The problem I have is the quad XW6048s in the system run at a pretty good load typically... often over 50%. This is off-grid with generator backup. The transfer switches in the XW6048 are causing surges and brownouts when the switched loads are high, especially smart dimmers and televisions. I need seamless power for this client. My thought is to abandon the internal chargers in the XW6048s and just run loads off inverter power full-time. I would charge the batteries with external battery chargers. The tricky part is how to adjust the charge rate based on load, and also based on solar input. I need to limit the net charging current. Of course, I still need 400Adc of charging current, which I'm learning might be hard to find. I don't really want to buy four more XWs - that's a pretty expensive solution. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 4:26 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > I use the CSW 4048. It has a 50 amp charger. A good spare for clients. Get 2 of them. Repurpose an old Radian or XW well over 100A. XW+ is 140adc. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > I'm looking for a standalone 51V nominal battery charger suitable for a LiPO battery with 2-stage charging and adjustable setpoints for max current and battery voltage. It would require dual chargers with 100A capacity (I want dual chargers for redundancy so I have at least 50% capacity if one goes bad). Ideally they would sync up so they change stages simultaneously, but I'm not sure if that's really important. > > Who makes something like that? > > Jason Szumlanski > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [2] > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [3] > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [4] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [5] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [7] Links: ------ [1] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/818d0fc14d35240172dc7b5e76e9b358639d0699?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.sti.net%2Foffgridsolar%2F&userId=1613865&signature=a20ca8855bc640ef [2] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/47d978507b9775cf89c2c4ac9665997e7f3c2d10?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=61d5cd552bcb7a04 [3] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/751a499f55945df4070b9d5521e2cdfbcea242a8?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&userId=1613865&signature=8afbf050d5afe9e0 [4] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/371ce356d356262bb1fe8e503601758f8bac958e?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=eb4588d3c5c730cd [5] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/e9ea24bb0cec5ce64b3012496a3a8b6390d7a863?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=b340c2774b3cc0f9 [6] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 10:39:38 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 07:39:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Paralleling CC Message-ID: <962DE3C9-1F51-42D8-B014-8341340DF6B0@gmail.com> Hi All, Are there any CC out there that can parallel on the input side? Situation is a older 12v system, 300’ wire run using a MX 60. Client wants more PV, but CC is maxed out. Upgrading to say FM-100 is way expensive and needs new mate etc. Yes could totally redo the system to 24 or 48v and use iota for 12v loads. Buts that’s expensive. Installing new wire would be complicated and expensive. But wire is large enough to handle more power. Are there are any cc that can parallel on the input side, which would be the easy solution if it exists Thx Jay From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 12:01:51 2020 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 11:01:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Paralleling CC In-Reply-To: <962DE3C9-1F51-42D8-B014-8341340DF6B0@gmail.com> References: <962DE3C9-1F51-42D8-B014-8341340DF6B0@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, as I see it there are two problems with parallel. One is the burnout of the FET in one of the controllers, and the other is the "not knowing what the other is doing. The burn out is caused by the capacitors in one CC supplying a surge current to the other CC. I tried this and it seemed to have success. However, I do not know how to trick the two CC to be both in absorption at the same time. On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:02 AM Jay wrote: > Hi All, > > Are there any CC out there that can parallel on the input side? > > Situation is a older 12v system, 300’ wire run using a MX 60. > > Client wants more PV, but CC is maxed out. Upgrading to say FM-100 is way > expensive and needs new mate etc. > Yes could totally redo the system to 24 or 48v and use iota for 12v loads. > Buts that’s expensive. > > Installing new wire would be complicated and expensive. But wire is large > enough to handle more power. > > Are there are any cc that can parallel on the input side, which would be > the easy solution if it exists > > Thx > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Apr 24 13:16:44 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 13:16:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Paralleling CC In-Reply-To: <962DE3C9-1F51-42D8-B014-8341340DF6B0@gmail.com> References: <962DE3C9-1F51-42D8-B014-8341340DF6B0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <573c669a-bc7f-354d-4f1b-8a6fdd8474d8@solarray.com> This is a classic off grid conundrum we've dealt with for decades.  Generally it take more money than the client wants to spend.  12 v is a serious limitation, not just for the PV array, but the inverter and battery layout as well.  What inverter do they have?  How old is it?  What battery are they running?  How old is the battery?  What are their expansion needs?  How far is grid away? I look at all these things when working with the owner of one of these legacy 12 v systems.  Generally it costs serious money to rewire to higher voltage, but it usually solves multiple problems that they needed to solve anyway. On the other hand, if you want to stick with 12 v, you CAN use the FM 100, and just use the MATE 3 to program the controller, then pull it.  We have numerous FM 100s, and we have only one MATE 3 that lives in the shop.  It brings the cost to the customer down significantly and prevents unnecessary tampering with settings. $600 for the MATE 3 is just stupid.  You can buy a decent laptop for that. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/24/20 10:39 AM, Jay wrote: > Hi All, > > Are there any CC out there that can parallel on the input side? > > Situation is a older 12v system, 300’ wire run using a MX 60. > > Client wants more PV, but CC is maxed out. Upgrading to say FM-100 is way expensive and needs new mate etc. > Yes could totally redo the system to 24 or 48v and use iota for 12v loads. Buts that’s expensive. > > Installing new wire would be complicated and expensive. But wire is large enough to handle more power. > > Are there are any cc that can parallel on the input side, which would be the easy solution if it exists > > Thx > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 13:20:56 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 10:20:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Paralleling CC In-Reply-To: <573c669a-bc7f-354d-4f1b-8a6fdd8474d8@solarray.com> References: <962DE3C9-1F51-42D8-B014-8341340DF6B0@gmail.com> <573c669a-bc7f-354d-4f1b-8a6fdd8474d8@solarray.com> Message-ID: Wrenches, Ray How do you program a FM 100 to 12 volts, l do not see that's programmable to be set to do that Jerry On Fri, Apr 24, 2020, 10:16 AM Ray wrote: > This is a classic off grid conundrum we've dealt with for decades. > Generally it take more money than the client wants to spend. 12 v is a > serious limitation, not just for the PV array, but the inverter and > battery layout as well. What inverter do they have? How old is it? > What battery are they running? How old is the battery? What are their > expansion needs? How far is grid away? > > I look at all these things when working with the owner of one of these > legacy 12 v systems. Generally it costs serious money to rewire to > higher voltage, but it usually solves multiple problems that they needed > to solve anyway. > > On the other hand, if you want to stick with 12 v, you CAN use the FM > 100, and just use the MATE 3 to program the controller, then pull it. > We have numerous FM 100s, and we have only one MATE 3 that lives in the > shop. It brings the cost to the customer down significantly and > prevents unnecessary tampering with settings. $600 for the MATE 3 is > just stupid. You can buy a decent laptop for that. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 4/24/20 10:39 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > Are there any CC out there that can parallel on the input side? > > > > Situation is a older 12v system, 300’ wire run using a MX 60. > > > > Client wants more PV, but CC is maxed out. Upgrading to say FM-100 is > way expensive and needs new mate etc. > > Yes could totally redo the system to 24 or 48v and use iota for 12v > loads. Buts that’s expensive. > > > > Installing new wire would be complicated and expensive. But wire is > large enough to handle more power. > > > > Are there are any cc that can parallel on the input side, which would be > the easy solution if it exists > > > > Thx > > > > Jay > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Apr 24 13:28:49 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 13:28:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Paralleling CC In-Reply-To: References: <962DE3C9-1F51-42D8-B014-8341340DF6B0@gmail.com> <573c669a-bc7f-354d-4f1b-8a6fdd8474d8@solarray.com> Message-ID: <258e6e5a-8430-4dac-f6ee-78060583a902@solarray.com> Oh well maybe I'm completely full of Hot air on this fine Friday morning. Sorry, I just assumed it could be set to 12v. II just checked the specs, and it actually is only compatible with 24 v and up battery banks. Personally I run the PV numbers on a calculator and when I multiply 100 amps x 12 v  (1200 watts) and only get 4 of yesteryear's solar modules on a controller that cost more than the array, I always, always talk the client into going to 48v, or I don't touch it, cause its all archaic equipment I don't want to take responsibility for. Sorry again for making a bad assumption. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/24/20 1:20 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches, Ray > How do you program a FM 100 to 12 volts, l do not see that's > programmable to be set to do that > Jerry > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020, 10:16 AM Ray > wrote: > > This is a classic off grid conundrum we've dealt with for decades. > Generally it take more money than the client wants to spend. 12 v > is a > serious limitation, not just for the PV array, but the inverter and > battery layout as well.  What inverter do they have?  How old is it? > What battery are they running?  How old is the battery?  What are > their > expansion needs?  How far is grid away? > > I look at all these things when working with the owner of one of > these > legacy 12 v systems.  Generally it costs serious money to rewire to > higher voltage, but it usually solves multiple problems that they > needed > to solve anyway. > > On the other hand, if you want to stick with 12 v, you CAN use the FM > 100, and just use the MATE 3 to program the controller, then pull it. > We have numerous FM 100s, and we have only one MATE 3 that lives > in the > shop.  It brings the cost to the customer down significantly and > prevents unnecessary tampering with settings. $600 for the MATE 3 is > just stupid.  You can buy a decent laptop for that. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 4/24/20 10:39 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > Are there any CC out there that can parallel on the input side? > > > > Situation is a older 12v system, 300’ wire run using a MX 60. > > > > Client wants more PV, but CC is maxed out. Upgrading to say > FM-100 is way expensive and needs new mate etc. > > Yes could totally redo the system to 24 or 48v and use iota for > 12v loads. Buts that’s  expensive. > > > > Installing new wire would be complicated and expensive. But wire > is large enough to handle more power. > > > > Are there are any cc that can parallel on the input side, which > would be the easy solution if it exists > > > > Thx > > > > Jay > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 13:32:01 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 10:32:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Paralleling CC In-Reply-To: <258e6e5a-8430-4dac-f6ee-78060583a902@solarray.com> References: <962DE3C9-1F51-42D8-B014-8341340DF6B0@gmail.com> <573c669a-bc7f-354d-4f1b-8a6fdd8474d8@solarray.com> <258e6e5a-8430-4dac-f6ee-78060583a902@solarray.com> Message-ID: Wrenches, Ray I agree that 12 volts needs to be changed and best to go to 48 nominal and have been there myself making suggestions. We,re all good and friends here. Jerry On Fri, Apr 24, 2020, 10:28 AM Ray wrote: > Oh well maybe I'm completely full of Hot air on this fine Friday morning. > Sorry, I just assumed it could be set to 12v. II just checked the specs, > and it actually is only compatible with 24 v and up battery banks. > > Personally I run the PV numbers on a calculator and when I multiply 100 > amps x 12 v (1200 watts) and only get 4 of yesteryear's solar modules on a > controller that cost more than the array, I always, always talk the client > into going to 48v, or I don't touch it, cause its all archaic equipment I > don't want to take responsibility for. > > Sorry again for making a bad assumption. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 4/24/20 1:20 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches, Ray > How do you program a FM 100 to 12 volts, l do not see that's programmable > to be set to do that > Jerry > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020, 10:16 AM Ray wrote: > >> This is a classic off grid conundrum we've dealt with for decades. >> Generally it take more money than the client wants to spend. 12 v is a >> serious limitation, not just for the PV array, but the inverter and >> battery layout as well. What inverter do they have? How old is it? >> What battery are they running? How old is the battery? What are their >> expansion needs? How far is grid away? >> >> I look at all these things when working with the owner of one of these >> legacy 12 v systems. Generally it costs serious money to rewire to >> higher voltage, but it usually solves multiple problems that they needed >> to solve anyway. >> >> On the other hand, if you want to stick with 12 v, you CAN use the FM >> 100, and just use the MATE 3 to program the controller, then pull it. >> We have numerous FM 100s, and we have only one MATE 3 that lives in the >> shop. It brings the cost to the customer down significantly and >> prevents unnecessary tampering with settings. $600 for the MATE 3 is >> just stupid. You can buy a decent laptop for that. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 4/24/20 10:39 AM, Jay wrote: >> > Hi All, >> > >> > Are there any CC out there that can parallel on the input side? >> > >> > Situation is a older 12v system, 300’ wire run using a MX 60. >> > >> > Client wants more PV, but CC is maxed out. Upgrading to say FM-100 is >> way expensive and needs new mate etc. >> > Yes could totally redo the system to 24 or 48v and use iota for 12v >> loads. Buts that’s expensive. >> > >> > Installing new wire would be complicated and expensive. But wire is >> large enough to handle more power. >> > >> > Are there are any cc that can parallel on the input side, which would >> be the easy solution if it exists >> > >> > Thx >> > >> > Jay >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Fri Apr 24 13:29:05 2020 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 12:29:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Paralleling CC In-Reply-To: References: <962DE3C9-1F51-42D8-B014-8341340DF6B0@gmail.com> <573c669a-bc7f-354d-4f1b-8a6fdd8474d8@solarray.com> Message-ID: The Magnum PT-100 will do 100 amps at 12 volts. It can be run stand alone / not on the Magnum network. Settings are via DIP switch. LED front panel display that cycles through displaying various parameters. Well built and simple units. https://www.magnum-dimensions.com/pt-100-mppt-charge-controller -James Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:21 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches, Ray > How do you program a FM 100 to 12 volts, l do not see that's programmable > to be set to do that > Jerry > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020, 10:16 AM Ray wrote: > >> This is a classic off grid conundrum we've dealt with for decades. >> Generally it take more money than the client wants to spend. 12 v is a >> serious limitation, not just for the PV array, but the inverter and >> battery layout as well. What inverter do they have? How old is it? >> What battery are they running? How old is the battery? What are their >> expansion needs? How far is grid away? >> >> I look at all these things when working with the owner of one of these >> legacy 12 v systems. Generally it costs serious money to rewire to >> higher voltage, but it usually solves multiple problems that they needed >> to solve anyway. >> >> On the other hand, if you want to stick with 12 v, you CAN use the FM >> 100, and just use the MATE 3 to program the controller, then pull it. >> We have numerous FM 100s, and we have only one MATE 3 that lives in the >> shop. It brings the cost to the customer down significantly and >> prevents unnecessary tampering with settings. $600 for the MATE 3 is >> just stupid. You can buy a decent laptop for that. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 4/24/20 10:39 AM, Jay wrote: >> > Hi All, >> > >> > Are there any CC out there that can parallel on the input side? >> > >> > Situation is a older 12v system, 300’ wire run using a MX 60. >> > >> > Client wants more PV, but CC is maxed out. Upgrading to say FM-100 is >> way expensive and needs new mate etc. >> > Yes could totally redo the system to 24 or 48v and use iota for 12v >> loads. Buts that’s expensive. >> > >> > Installing new wire would be complicated and expensive. But wire is >> large enough to handle more power. >> > >> > Are there are any cc that can parallel on the input side, which would >> be the easy solution if it exists >> > >> > Thx >> > >> > Jay >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Tue Apr 28 09:50:15 2020 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 09:50:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage Message-ID: Hi All, I've got an outback system (Radian 8048A, 2 FM80, 16 Trojan L16RE-B) where when the customer equalizes, the batteries hover right around the EQ voltage, but will often dip to 0.1v less. Because of this, the EQ timer does not count down properly, and so left to its own devices the system would equalize for way longer than it should, potentially forever. This will happen when doing an EQ from the solar on a bright sunny day, or the generator, or both. The customer can manually keep track of the time and manually stop the EQ after 3 hours, but that is not ideal. Has anyone dealt with this before and have any suggestions on how they fixed it? This system is 3-4 years old, and the issue only started in the past year or so. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Tue Apr 28 09:59:00 2020 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 06:59:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What’s the capacity of the battery bank? And the size of the charging sources? What’s your EQ voltage? Have you tried a lower EQ voltage setting to see if it does the same thing? Brian > On Apr 28, 2020, at 6:50 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > >  > Hi All, > > I've got an outback system (Radian 8048A, 2 FM80, 16 Trojan L16RE-B) where when the customer equalizes, the batteries hover right around the EQ voltage, but will often dip to 0.1v less. Because of this, the EQ timer does not count down properly, and so left to its own devices the system would equalize for way longer than it should, potentially forever. This will happen when doing an EQ from the solar on a bright sunny day, or the generator, or both. The customer can manually keep track of the time and manually stop the EQ after 3 hours, but that is not ideal. Has anyone dealt with this before and have any suggestions on how they fixed it? > > This system is 3-4 years old, and the issue only started in the past year or so. > > Cheers, > Dave > > Dave Tedeyan, PE > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Tue Apr 28 10:00:21 2020 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 07:00:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52463633-F4A3-444E-9379-72CB2E57206B@solarenergy.org> Sorry you had already answered the first two questions :) What about the others? Brian > On Apr 28, 2020, at 6:50 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > >  > Hi All, > > I've got an outback system (Radian 8048A, 2 FM80, 16 Trojan L16RE-B) where when the customer equalizes, the batteries hover right around the EQ voltage, but will often dip to 0.1v less. Because of this, the EQ timer does not count down properly, and so left to its own devices the system would equalize for way longer than it should, potentially forever. This will happen when doing an EQ from the solar on a bright sunny day, or the generator, or both. The customer can manually keep track of the time and manually stop the EQ after 3 hours, but that is not ideal. Has anyone dealt with this before and have any suggestions on how they fixed it? > > This system is 3-4 years old, and the issue only started in the past year or so. > > Cheers, > Dave > > Dave Tedeyan, PE > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Apr 28 10:37:49 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 07:37:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage In-Reply-To: <52463633-F4A3-444E-9379-72CB2E57206B@solarenergy.org> References: <52463633-F4A3-444E-9379-72CB2E57206B@solarenergy.org> Message-ID: Does not sound right to me. Usually both Outback and Schneider protect against uncontrolled EQ time and end EQ. I think I would remove the network after the battery is full and test one controller at a time. Might have been damaged by lightning or gen glitching. Since you say it does this from the inverter charger on genset (only no fm80's) is even weirder. Eliminate the network. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 07:00:21 -0700, Brian Mehalic wrote: Sorry you had already answered the first two questions :) What about the others? Brian On Apr 28, 2020, at 6:50 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Hi All, I've got an outback system (Radian 8048A, 2 FM80, 16 Trojan L16RE-B) where when the customer equalizes, the batteries hover right around the EQ voltage, but will often dip to 0.1v less. Because of this, the EQ timer does not count down properly, and so left to its own devices the system would equalize for way longer than it should, potentially forever. This will happen when doing an EQ from the solar on a bright sunny day, or the generator, or both. The customer can manually keep track of the time and manually stop the EQ after 3 hours, but that is not ideal. Has anyone dealt with this before and have any suggestions on how they fixed it? This system is 3-4 years old, and the issue only started in the past year or so. Cheers, Dave DAVE TEDEYAN, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com [3] Solar * Sustainability * Energy * Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.taitem.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Tue Apr 28 11:11:14 2020 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 11:11:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] the history of three Mate's Message-ID: G'Day All, Recently ran into an issue on a system installed by others. It's an Outback FW1000 circa 2015 with a twin stack of VFX3648's. The system is offgrid and charged solely by a 15kw propane fired generator with plenty of hours on it. I'll be adding PV to it in the coming weeks. The system originally came with a Mate Oval using the AGS. In late 2018 a second installer replaced the oval with a Mate3, serial# M307410. The system has been working with the AGS feature flawlessly. A couple weeks back I received a call because the Mate3 had locked up. So I arrived last week with a new Mate3s in hand, serial# MA2007F0100150 not a Mate3. I removed the SD card from the Mate3 and installed it to the Mate3s. It appeared that someone had saved a profile so I loaded it into the newest Mate3s. After reviewing the settings I was satisfied with them and fired everything up and then manually started the genny. After an hour or so I shut down the genny again manually. The AC power went out and on the Mate3s I received an event, "AC Out shorted Error". This seemed odd as there were no other changes to the system other than to swap out of the Mate. Tried this several times with the same results. Next I decided to turn off the home's main breaker @ the SEP. Did not get any error's at the Mate3s. Next I turned on the 200A main @ the SEP. Still good. Then one by one all the breakers in the SEP. No error's and the power is back on. Fired up the genny, then turned it off and the same error reappears. Here's where it gets really interesting. The client still had the old oval Mate lying around so just for fun I reinstalled it and everything ran perfectly. Say what?!?! At this point I'm leaning to either an incompatibility issue with the new Mate3s and the older VFX inverters or just a bad Mate3s. What say you? Thanks, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Tue Apr 28 11:17:16 2020 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 11:17:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage In-Reply-To: References: <52463633-F4A3-444E-9379-72CB2E57206B@solarenergy.org> Message-ID: Brian, I had tried lowering the EQ voltage by 0.4V. The batteries still get up to the EQ voltage, but then fluctuate right at or 0.1V below. Dave, The EQ countdown timer does not count down when the battery voltage is below the EQ setpoint (even if by 0.1V). And since the timer never gets to 0, the system just stays in EQ. Also, we have found that the issue is somewhat intermittent. At one point Outback had me reset the CC and FNDC back to factory settings and reprogram them. It seemed that it helped, but then a month or two later it showed the same issue. So this does not happen with every EQ cycle, it just happens for most of them. I also received another suggestion that the battery bank has a couple bad cells which will lead to higher temps and so with the temperature compensation the bank is just not getting to a high enough voltage. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:08 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Does not sound right to me. Usually both Outback and Schneider protect > against uncontrolled EQ time and end EQ. > > I think I would remove the network after the battery is full and test one > controller at a time. Might have been damaged by lightning or gen > glitching. Since you say it does this from the inverter charger on genset > (only no fm80's) is even weirder. Eliminate the network. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 07:00:21 -0700, Brian Mehalic > wrote: > > Sorry you had already answered the first two questions :) What about the > others? > > Brian > > On Apr 28, 2020, at 6:50 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Hi All, > > I've got an outback system (Radian 8048A, 2 FM80, 16 Trojan L16RE-B) where > when the customer equalizes, the batteries hover right around the EQ > voltage, but will often dip to 0.1v less. Because of this, the EQ timer > does not count down properly, and so left to its own devices the system > would equalize for way longer than it should, potentially forever. This > will happen when doing an EQ from the solar on a bright sunny day, or the > generator, or both. The customer can manually keep track of the time and > manually stop the EQ after 3 hours, but that is not ideal. Has anyone dealt > with this before and have any suggestions on how they fixed it? > > This system is 3-4 years old, and the issue only started in the past year > or so. > > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steve at surrette.com Tue Apr 28 11:38:04 2020 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 08:38:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage In-Reply-To: References: <52463633-F4A3-444E-9379-72CB2E57206B@solarenergy.org> Message-ID: I know the old FX's didn't temp compensate in EQ mode but the charge controllers do... I know... that is what I said when I learned this years ago! I don't think the Radians observe temp compensation while in EQ either... That would be a better question for Lones Tuss... You out there Lones? Instead of using global EQ try to EQ only with the Solar or the Inverter... BTW how much solar is connected to the FM's and how much current going to the batteries while in the bulk stage? Also is this current balanced between the parallel strings? Also, you should do an eq after a full bulk/absorb stage can/have you finished a full buik absorb cycle before starting the EQ? The best way to do this is to start the generator and run it manually let it run until you are in the float or silent mode... then at that time start the EQ... I've never been a fan of EQ'ing batteries! There are just so many things that can and will go wrong when EQ'ing. What's going on within the battery is a chemical reaction attempting to force it by cooking the batteries often does not end well. I have found that if you charge to what is supposed to be a full charge then you discharge 10-20% then charge back to full 2-3 times a day and you repeat this for a week or two this often will recover unbalanced cells faster and keep the batteries cooler (Causing Less overall Damage) than EQ'ing the battery bank. Lastly, what Dave has said, yes a dead cell, either an open or short can cause the EQ to never be fully met. Check the Voltage of the batteries at rest and at load over a period of time usually 2-4 hours @ a C10 discharge current... If you notice that the voltages drift more than .4 to .6 vdc (6 Volt L16), EQ'ing probably isn't going to help. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ *Become a Certified PV Professional. Register for* *NABCEP CEC 2020* *using promo code* *20RBE* ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 8:17 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Brian, > I had tried lowering the EQ voltage by 0.4V. The batteries still get up to > the EQ voltage, but then fluctuate right at or 0.1V below. > > Dave, > The EQ countdown timer does not count down when the battery voltage is > below the EQ setpoint (even if by 0.1V). And since the timer never gets to > 0, the system just stays in EQ. > > Also, we have found that the issue is somewhat intermittent. At one point > Outback had me reset the CC and FNDC back to factory settings and reprogram > them. It seemed that it helped, but then a month or two later it showed the > same issue. So this does not happen with every EQ cycle, it just happens > for most of them. > > I also received another suggestion that the battery bank has a couple bad > cells which will lead to higher temps and so with the temperature > compensation the bank is just not getting to a high enough voltage. > > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > > On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:08 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > >> Does not sound right to me. Usually both Outback and Schneider protect >> against uncontrolled EQ time and end EQ. >> >> I think I would remove the network after the battery is full and test one >> controller at a time. Might have been damaged by lightning or gen >> glitching. Since you say it does this from the inverter charger on genset >> (only no fm80's) is even weirder. Eliminate the network. >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 07:00:21 -0700, Brian Mehalic >> wrote: >> >> Sorry you had already answered the first two questions :) What about the >> others? >> >> Brian >> >> On Apr 28, 2020, at 6:50 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> I've got an outback system (Radian 8048A, 2 FM80, 16 Trojan L16RE-B) >> where when the customer equalizes, the batteries hover right around the EQ >> voltage, but will often dip to 0.1v less. Because of this, the EQ timer >> does not count down properly, and so left to its own devices the system >> would equalize for way longer than it should, potentially forever. This >> will happen when doing an EQ from the solar on a bright sunny day, or the >> generator, or both. The customer can manually keep track of the time and >> manually stop the EQ after 3 hours, but that is not ideal. Has anyone dealt >> with this before and have any suggestions on how they fixed it? >> >> This system is 3-4 years old, and the issue only started in the past year >> or so. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com >> >> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design >> Certified B-Corporation since 2013 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 11:52:11 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 08:52:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sounds like a battery issue at first glance, as you EQ a battery it gets warm or even hot and this will effect ability to charge. If e en one of the L-16 is not exactly the same voltage you will not get to EQ untill another battery over voltages to show your overall volts. Need to look at each battery volts under this charge condition. Also if you have a battery acting up be very careful working around them. Jerry On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 6:50 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi All, > > I've got an outback system (Radian 8048A, 2 FM80, 16 Trojan L16RE-B) where > when the customer equalizes, the batteries hover right around the EQ > voltage, but will often dip to 0.1v less. Because of this, the EQ timer > does not count down properly, and so left to its own devices the system > would equalize for way longer than it should, potentially forever. This > will happen when doing an EQ from the solar on a bright sunny day, or the > generator, or both. The customer can manually keep track of the time and > manually stop the EQ after 3 hours, but that is not ideal. Has anyone dealt > with this before and have any suggestions on how they fixed it? > > This system is 3-4 years old, and the issue only started in the past year > or so. > > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 11:55:17 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 08:55:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] the history of three Mate's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You may have a stacking error, l would verify that first Jerry On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 8:11 AM Chris Schaefer wrote: > G'Day All, > > Recently ran into an issue on a system installed by others. It's an > Outback FW1000 circa 2015 with a twin stack of VFX3648's. The system is > offgrid and charged solely by a 15kw propane fired generator with plenty of > hours on it. I'll be adding PV to it in the coming weeks. The system > originally came with a Mate Oval using the AGS. In late 2018 a second > installer replaced the oval with a Mate3, serial# M307410. The system has > been working with the AGS feature flawlessly. > > A couple weeks back I received a call because the Mate3 had locked up. So > I arrived last week with a new Mate3s in hand, serial# MA2007F0100150 not a > Mate3. I removed the SD card from the Mate3 and installed it to the Mate3s. > It appeared that someone had saved a profile so I loaded it into the newest > Mate3s. After reviewing the settings I was satisfied with them and fired > everything up and then manually started the genny. After an hour or so I > shut down the genny again manually. The AC power went out and on the Mate3s > I received an event, "AC Out shorted Error". This seemed odd as there were > no other changes to the system other than to swap out of the Mate. Tried > this several times with the same results. Next I decided to turn off the > home's main breaker @ the SEP. Did not get any error's at the Mate3s. Next > I turned on the 200A main @ the SEP. Still good. Then one by one all the > breakers in the SEP. No error's and the power is back on. Fired up the > genny, then turned it off and the same error reappears. > > Here's where it gets really interesting. The client still had the old oval > Mate lying around so just for fun I reinstalled it and everything ran > perfectly. Say what?!?! At this point I'm leaning to either an > incompatibility issue with the new Mate3s and the older VFX inverters or > just a bad Mate3s. What say you? > > Thanks, > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 12:08:48 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 10:08:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] the history of three Mate's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What version Hub? On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 9:55 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: > You may have a stacking error, l would verify that first > Jerry > > On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 8:11 AM Chris Schaefer > wrote: > >> G'Day All, >> >> Recently ran into an issue on a system installed by others. It's an >> Outback FW1000 circa 2015 with a twin stack of VFX3648's. The system is >> offgrid and charged solely by a 15kw propane fired generator with plenty of >> hours on it. I'll be adding PV to it in the coming weeks. The system >> originally came with a Mate Oval using the AGS. In late 2018 a second >> installer replaced the oval with a Mate3, serial# M307410. The system has >> been working with the AGS feature flawlessly. >> >> A couple weeks back I received a call because the Mate3 had locked up. So >> I arrived last week with a new Mate3s in hand, serial# MA2007F0100150 not a >> Mate3. I removed the SD card from the Mate3 and installed it to the Mate3s. >> It appeared that someone had saved a profile so I loaded it into the newest >> Mate3s. After reviewing the settings I was satisfied with them and fired >> everything up and then manually started the genny. After an hour or so I >> shut down the genny again manually. The AC power went out and on the Mate3s >> I received an event, "AC Out shorted Error". This seemed odd as there were >> no other changes to the system other than to swap out of the Mate. Tried >> this several times with the same results. Next I decided to turn off the >> home's main breaker @ the SEP. Did not get any error's at the Mate3s. Next >> I turned on the 200A main @ the SEP. Still good. Then one by one all the >> breakers in the SEP. No error's and the power is back on. Fired up the >> genny, then turned it off and the same error reappears. >> >> Here's where it gets really interesting. The client still had the old >> oval Mate lying around so just for fun I reinstalled it and everything ran >> perfectly. Say what?!?! At this point I'm leaning to either an >> incompatibility issue with the new Mate3s and the older VFX inverters or >> just a bad Mate3s. What say you? >> >> Thanks, >> Christopher- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Tue Apr 28 12:20:26 2020 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 12:20:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Steve and Jerry, Thanks for the suggestions. I'll have to take a closer look at the battery bank next time I am out there. The solar setup is 4 strings of 3 kyocera 270's into each charge controller. So that is almost 65A @50V coming out of each charge controller for bulk. The parallel battery strings all have the same length of premade cable, so current should be balanced (unless there is a dead cell or two in there...). Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:52 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Sounds like a battery issue at first glance, as you EQ a battery it gets > warm or even hot and this will effect ability to charge. If e en one of the > L-16 is not exactly the same voltage you will not get to EQ untill another > battery over voltages to show your overall volts. Need to look at each > battery volts under this charge condition. Also if you have a battery > acting up be very careful working around them. > Jerry > > On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 6:50 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> I've got an outback system (Radian 8048A, 2 FM80, 16 Trojan L16RE-B) >> where when the customer equalizes, the batteries hover right around the EQ >> voltage, but will often dip to 0.1v less. Because of this, the EQ timer >> does not count down properly, and so left to its own devices the system >> would equalize for way longer than it should, potentially forever. This >> will happen when doing an EQ from the solar on a bright sunny day, or the >> generator, or both. The customer can manually keep track of the time and >> manually stop the EQ after 3 hours, but that is not ideal. Has anyone dealt >> with this before and have any suggestions on how they fixed it? >> >> This system is 3-4 years old, and the issue only started in the past year >> or so. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com >> >> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design >> Certified B-Corporation since 2013 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Apr 28 14:11:56 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 14:11:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would add to the chorus that it probably is a battery issue. Here are the symptoms that lead to that conclusion: A) it started occurring recently, B) it is somewhat intermittent, C) the system has aging L 16s  (failures at 4 to 5 years are pretty  common) D) they are the Trojan RE series  (dead cells at less than 2 years has been documented several times on this list) E) the customer is trying to equalize regularly. (which causes over heating, and accelerates cell failures) Besides checking battery voltages, an infared camera can quickly show over heating, bad cells.  Also, I would advise the customer to only equalize when the batteries are unequal, based on specific gravity readings. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/28/20 12:20 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Steve and Jerry, > Thanks for the suggestions. I'll have to take a closer look at the > battery bank next time I am out there. > The solar setup is 4 strings of 3 kyocera 270's into each charge > controller. So that is almost 65A @50V coming out of each charge > controller for bulk. The parallel battery strings all have the same > length of premade cable, so current should be balanced (unless there > is a dead cell or two in there...). > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. _607.277.1118 x121_  f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar •Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > > On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:52 AM Jerry Shafer > > wrote: > > Sounds like a battery issue at first glance, as you EQ a battery > it gets warm or even hot and this will effect ability to charge. > If e en one of the L-16 is not exactly the same voltage you will > not get to EQ untill another battery over voltages to show your > overall volts. Need to look at each battery volts under this > charge condition. Also if you have a battery acting up be very > careful working around them. > Jerry > > On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 6:50 AM Dave Tedeyan > wrote: > > Hi All, > > I've got an outback system (Radian 8048A, 2 FM80, 16 Trojan > L16RE-B) where when the customer equalizes, the batteries > hover right around the EQ voltage, but will often dip to 0.1v > less. Because of this, the EQ timer does not count down > properly, and so left to its own devices the system would > equalize for way longer than it should, potentially forever. > This will happen when doing an EQ from the solar on a bright > sunny day, or the generator, or both. The customer can > manually keep track of the time and manually stop the EQ after > 3 hours, but that is not ideal. Has anyone dealt with this > before and have any suggestions on how they fixed it? > > This system is 3-4 years old, and the issue only started in > the past year or so. > > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. _607.277.1118 x121_  f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar •Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 15:28:50 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 15:28:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would tend to agree with Ray's analysis, with one question: - Does the Eq timer reset to 0 when the voltage dips? It should basically hold the time the batteries were at Eq voltage when it drops below, sort of putting the EQ timer on hold until the voltage comes back up. So eventually given enough sun and long enough day, or long enough generator run time, the mate should still report that equalization was reached. - If it doesn't reach equalization do that even though the battery voltage is being attained for enough time, then it might suggest a Mate issue... Howie On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 2:12 PM Ray wrote: > I would add to the chorus that it probably is a battery issue. Here are > the symptoms that lead to that conclusion: > > A) it started occurring recently, > B) it is somewhat intermittent, > C) the system has aging L 16s (failures at 4 to 5 years are pretty > common) > D) they are the Trojan RE series (dead cells at less than 2 years has > been documented several times on this list) > E) the customer is trying to equalize regularly. (which causes over > heating, and accelerates cell failures) > > Besides checking battery voltages, an infared camera can quickly show over > heating, bad cells. Also, I would advise the customer to only equalize > when the batteries are unequal, based on specific gravity readings. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 4/28/20 12:20 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Steve and Jerry, > Thanks for the suggestions. I'll have to take a closer look at the battery > bank next time I am out there. > The solar setup is 4 strings of 3 kyocera 270's into each charge > controller. So that is almost 65A @50V coming out of each charge controller > for bulk. The parallel battery strings all have the same length of premade > cable, so current should be balanced (unless there is a dead cell or two in > there...). > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > > On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:52 AM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Sounds like a battery issue at first glance, as you EQ a battery it gets >> warm or even hot and this will effect ability to charge. If e en one of the >> L-16 is not exactly the same voltage you will not get to EQ untill another >> battery over voltages to show your overall volts. Need to look at each >> battery volts under this charge condition. Also if you have a battery >> acting up be very careful working around them. >> Jerry >> >> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 6:50 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I've got an outback system (Radian 8048A, 2 FM80, 16 Trojan L16RE-B) >>> where when the customer equalizes, the batteries hover right around the EQ >>> voltage, but will often dip to 0.1v less. Because of this, the EQ timer >>> does not count down properly, and so left to its own devices the system >>> would equalize for way longer than it should, potentially forever. This >>> will happen when doing an EQ from the solar on a bright sunny day, or the >>> generator, or both. The customer can manually keep track of the time and >>> manually stop the EQ after 3 hours, but that is not ideal. Has anyone dealt >>> with this before and have any suggestions on how they fixed it? >>> >>> This system is 3-4 years old, and the issue only started in the past >>> year or so. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >>> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >>> >>> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 >>> www.taitem.com >>> >>> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design >>> Certified B-Corporation since 2013 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Tue Apr 28 15:32:58 2020 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 19:32:58 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage In-Reply-To: References: <52463633-F4A3-444E-9379-72CB2E57206B@solarenergy.org> Message-ID: Hi All On OutBack inverters the EQ process is not temp comped. The eq timer will not count down until the voltage set point is achieved. You comment on the issue being somewhat intermittent is interesting. Could there be a loose cable, bad crimp or corroded connection somewhere in the system? Sorry but nothing jumps out at me. Someone mentioned specific gravity. Are the SG readings widely separated? From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 8:17 AM To: offgridsolar at sti.net; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage Brian, I had tried lowering the EQ voltage by 0.4V. The batteries still get up to the EQ voltage, but then fluctuate right at or 0.1V below. Dave, The EQ countdown timer does not count down when the battery voltage is below the EQ setpoint (even if by 0.1V). And since the timer never gets to 0, the system just stays in EQ. Also, we have found that the issue is somewhat intermittent. At one point Outback had me reset the CC and FNDC back to factory settings and reprogram them. It seemed that it helped, but then a month or two later it showed the same issue. So this does not happen with every EQ cycle, it just happens for most of them. I also received another suggestion that the battery bank has a couple bad cells which will lead to higher temps and so with the temperature compensation the bank is just not getting to a high enough voltage. Cheers, Dave Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC [https://www.taitem.com/signatures/logo.png] 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:08 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > wrote: Does not sound right to me. Usually both Outback and Schneider protect against uncontrolled EQ time and end EQ. I think I would remove the network after the battery is full and test one controller at a time. Might have been damaged by lightning or gen glitching. Since you say it does this from the inverter charger on genset (only no fm80's) is even weirder. Eliminate the network. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 07:00:21 -0700, Brian Mehalic > wrote: Sorry you had already answered the first two questions :) What about the others? Brian On Apr 28, 2020, at 6:50 AM, Dave Tedeyan > wrote: Hi All, I've got an outback system (Radian 8048A, 2 FM80, 16 Trojan L16RE-B) where when the customer equalizes, the batteries hover right around the EQ voltage, but will often dip to 0.1v less. Because of this, the EQ timer does not count down properly, and so left to its own devices the system would equalize for way longer than it should, potentially forever. This will happen when doing an EQ from the solar on a bright sunny day, or the generator, or both. The customer can manually keep track of the time and manually stop the EQ after 3 hours, but that is not ideal. Has anyone dealt with this before and have any suggestions on how they fixed it? This system is 3-4 years old, and the issue only started in the past year or so. Cheers, Dave Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC [cid:image001.gif at 01D61D59.20569B90] 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 13:57:33 2020 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 12:57:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance Message-ID: Now that 690.12 of the *NEC* 2017 has been in effect for several years, I am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS principle, and as best I can determine the *Tigo* TS4-F device is one of the simplest options currently available on the market. What are others finding? I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown. Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Tue Apr 28 17:37:40 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 17:37:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] the history of three Mate's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: YEP, you need a hub 10.3 to work properly with a Mate 3S. And the hub 10 jumpers may need to be reconfigered from the factory positions. On 4/28/2020 12:09:13 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: What version Hub? On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 9:55 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: You may have a stacking error, l would verify that first Jerry On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 8:11 AM Chris Schaefer wrote: G'Day All, Recently ran into an issue on a system installed by others. It's an Outback FW1000 circa 2015 with a twin stack of VFX3648's. The system is offgrid and charged solely by a 15kw propane fired generator with plenty of hours on it. I'll be adding PV to it in the coming weeks. The system originally came with a Mate Oval using the AGS. In late 2018 a second installer replaced the oval with a Mate3, serial# M307410. The system has been working with the AGS feature flawlessly. A couple weeks back I received a call because the Mate3 had locked up. So I arrived last week with a new Mate3s in hand, serial# MA2007F0100150 not a Mate3. I removed the SD card from the Mate3 and installed it to the Mate3s. It appeared that someone had saved a profile so I loaded it into the newest Mate3s. After reviewing the settings I was satisfied with them and fired everything up and then manually started the genny. After an hour or so I shut down the genny again manually. The AC power went out and on the Mate3s I received an event, "AC Out shorted Error". This seemed odd as there were no other changes to the system other than to swap out of the Mate. Tried this several times with the same results. Next I decided to turn off the home's main breaker @ the SEP. Did not get any error's at the Mate3s. Next I turned on the 200A main @ the SEP. Still good. Then one by one all the breakers in the SEP. No error's and the power is back on. Fired up the genny, then turned it off and the same error reappears. Here's where it gets really interesting. The client still had the old oval Mate lying around so just for fun I reinstalled it and everything ran perfectly. Say what?!?! At this point I'm leaning to either an incompatibility issue with the new Mate3s and the older VFX inverters or just a bad Mate3s. What say you? Thanks, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s [http:www.solarandwindfx.com] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com [http://www.solarandwindfx.com] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com] Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 18:25:23 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 15:25:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77BED4CF-4330-409B-8B89-CE476E878DDD@gmail.com> Hi Dave, Only thing I would check is to see if lowering the eq by 1 volt changes anything. IE the batteries are just struggling to keep up. But the CC should tell you what mode it’s in right? IE is it regulating or is it full power. Either in the menus or just looking at VMP/watts If it’s regulating then it’s on the OB side If it’s max power then it’s on the battery side Jay Peltz > On Apr 28, 2020, at 6:50 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Hi All, > > I've got an outback system (Radian 8048A, 2 FM80, 16 Trojan L16RE-B) where when the customer equalizes, the batteries hover right around the EQ voltage, but will often dip to 0.1v less. Because of this, the EQ timer does not count down properly, and so left to its own devices the system would equalize for way longer than it should, potentially forever. This will happen when doing an EQ from the solar on a bright sunny day, or the generator, or both. The customer can manually keep track of the time and manually stop the EQ after 3 hours, but that is not ideal. Has anyone dealt with this before and have any suggestions on how they fixed it? > > This system is 3-4 years old, and the issue only started in the past year or so. > > Cheers, > Dave > > Dave Tedeyan, PE > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at ecologicalsystems.biz Wed Apr 29 07:27:25 2020 From: sky at ecologicalsystems.biz (Sky Sims) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 07:27:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5ADE39AD-6C89-4B04-986F-BEBB0A8C57D3@ecologicalsystems.biz> So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It’s added a lot of cost for no measurable benefit. Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it impossible to test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door to tons of problems when commissioning systems. Also we’ve been trying out midnight Solar’s product and have had an absurd failure rate. Which means lots of truck rolls and troubleshooting and system downtime. They send replacement product but they aren’t paying for the lost weeks of productivity. We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding which project to try it on. But our big concern about using it is not only the inability to confirm open circuit voltage of the strings but also the way panels bypass if the device doesn’t allow the panel to connect properly. Both of these features are a recipe for problems and potential troubleshooting nightmares. The warranty from Tigo doesn’t cover our expense if the product fails. And that’s really what our reservations about the product boil down to right now. If we’re on a job with 50 units and one fails, the contractor or the homeowner will be the ones eating the expense of finding it and replacing it. There has to be a better option. Sky Sims Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > >  > Now that 690.12 of the NEC 2017 has been in effect for several years, I am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS principle, and as best I can determine the Tigo TS4-F device is one of the simplest options currently available on the market. What are others finding? > > I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown. Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Apr 29 10:53:03 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 07:53:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Corey - As we've grown, and as our fleet of installed systems has grown, I've become increasingly interested in choosing an inverter solution that shows per-module production data. I realize that you specifically asked not to consider optimizers or microinverters, but I wonder if that will be a losing battle. Module Level Power Electronics (MLPE) are getting more and more reliable, and allow us to see what is actually happening with the system for relatively easy troubleshooting down the road. Simply put, the benefits outweigh the drawbacks, and they are only getting better. That said, we're seeing some integrators going with the SMA / Tigo route where you can choose the TS4-F rapid-shutdown-only variant of the Tigo unit to reduce cost. You mentioned this. From the cost analysis that I've run, I'm finding the SolarEdge is actually a bit cheaper than the SMA / Tigo TS4-F route, especially when factoring in the long and flexible string designs possible with SolarEdge. It's certainly possible that the KISS route will pay off if one selects the Tigo route, but I think it's really anyone's guess about which MLPE device will last the longest. Then there are AC modules and Enphase type microinverters which are even simpler to design and install with. Anyway, it's a good question about whether there are any other viable solutions to meet NEC 2017 rapid shutdown requirements out there. But I'm afraid that the days of simple DC string based inverter systems are gone. August Luminalt On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 4:46 PM Corey Shalanski wrote: > Now that 690.12 of the *NEC* 2017 has been in effect for several years, I > am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated > requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering > microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS > principle, and as best I can determine the *Tigo* TS4-F device is one of > the simplest options currently available on the market. What are others > finding? > > I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown. > Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Apr 29 10:17:33 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 10:17:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: <5ADE39AD-6C89-4B04-986F-BEBB0A8C57D3@ecologicalsystems.biz> References: <5ADE39AD-6C89-4B04-986F-BEBB0A8C57D3@ecologicalsystems.biz> Message-ID: <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and reduces reliability. Given the excellent safety record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being required, it is unnecessary. The few anecdotal incidents of PV fires were not enough to justify the requirement, especially on smaller systems. According to a friend who worked for a local installation company that went under, a big part of the reason for their failure was the chronic replacement of microinverters and optimizers. What steps can be taken to create some balance in the rapid shutdown requirements that are in the NEC? --- On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: > So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It's added a lot of cost for no measurable benefit. > Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it impossible to test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door to tons of problems when commissioning systems. > Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's product and have had an absurd failure rate. Which means lots of truck rolls and troubleshooting and system downtime. They send replacement product but they aren't paying for the lost weeks of productivity. > We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding which project to try it on. But our big concern about using it is not only the inability to confirm open circuit voltage of the strings but also the way panels bypass if the device doesn't allow the panel to connect properly. Both of these features are a recipe for problems and potential troubleshooting nightmares. The warranty from Tigo doesn't cover our expense if the product fails. And that's really what our reservations about the product boil down to right now. If we're on a job with 50 units and one fails, the contractor or the homeowner will be the ones eating the expense of finding it and replacing it. There has to be a better option. > > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > >> On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > >> Now that 690.12 of the _NEC_ 2017 has been in effect for several years, I am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS principle, and as best I can determine the _Tigo_ TS4-F device is one of the simplest options currently available on the market. What are others finding? >> >> I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown. Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? >> >> -- >> Corey Shalanski >> Jah Light Solar >> Portland, Jamaica _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] Links: ------ [1] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 11:17:50 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 08:17:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> References: <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <32026157-40F8-4E77-A590-96624B18E9BA@gmail.com> Hi Drake I will disagree, there have been many roof top fires. But regardless we have to do these new regulations and I for one welcome the safety. The main issue is accessing the faulty/suspect component under the module possibly requiring removing multiple modules, a slow and expensive process. My technique is to install the MLPE at the edges of the array, using wire extensions. That way at most I have to remove a single module. And Im working on a drop bracket which would allow better cooling and easier access without module removal to the MLPE, greatly reducing time to swap. Jay Peltz Power. > On Apr 29, 2020, at 7:59 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > >  > Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and reduces reliability. Given the excellent safety record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being required, it is unnecessary. The few anecdotal incidents of PV fires were not enough to justify the requirement, especially on smaller systems. > > According to a friend who worked for a local installation company that went under, a big part of the reason for their failure was the chronic replacement of microinverters and optimizers. > > What steps can be taken to create some balance in the rapid shutdown requirements that are in the NEC? > > > > --- > > > >> On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: >> >> So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It's added a lot of cost for no measurable benefit. >> Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it impossible to test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door to tons of problems when commissioning systems. >> Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's product and have had an absurd failure rate. Which means lots of truck rolls and troubleshooting and system downtime. They send replacement product but they aren't paying for the lost weeks of productivity. >> We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding which project to try it on. But our big concern about using it is not only the inability to confirm open circuit voltage of the strings but also the way panels bypass if the device doesn't allow the panel to connect properly. Both of these features are a recipe for problems and potential troubleshooting nightmares. The warranty from Tigo doesn't cover our expense if the product fails. And that's really what our reservations about the product boil down to right now. If we're on a job with 50 units and one fails, the contractor or the homeowner will be the ones eating the expense of finding it and replacing it. There has to be a better option. >> >> Sky Sims >> Https://EcologicalSystems.biz >> >>> On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: >>> >>> Now that 690.12 of the NEC 2017 has been in effect for several years, I am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS principle, and as best I can determine the Tigo TS4-F device is one of the simplest options currently available on the market. What are others finding? >>> >>> I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown. Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? >>> >>> -- >>> Corey Shalanski >>> Jah Light Solar >>> Portland, Jamaica >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Apr 29 11:49:25 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 08:49:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> References: <5ADE39AD-6C89-4B04-986F-BEBB0A8C57D3@ecologicalsystems.biz> <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <3eb426a1b52eb504a78b418067f7b184@127.0.0.1> My 2 cents are related to the very few times I have had to do RS for offgrid. My advice is to install whatever the inspector wants, assuming he can't be convinced of the mindless requirement. Complete the installation. Do the right thing after by abandoning it. Have the client remove the RS signing so fire folks do not get misled. I am testing the Schneider RS here on one array, but XW is out of the loop. Just logging. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 10:17:33 -0400, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and reduces reliability. Given the excellent safety record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being required, it is unnecessary. The few anecdotal incidents of PV fires were not enough to justify the requirement, especially on smaller systems. According to a friend who worked for a local installation company that went under, a big part of the reason for their failure was the chronic replacement of microinverters and optimizers. What steps can be taken to create some balance in the rapid shutdown requirements that are in the NEC? --- On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It's added a lot of cost for no measurable benefit. Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it impossible to test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door to tons of problems when commissioning systems. Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's product and have had an absurd failure rate. Which means lots of truck rolls and troubleshooting and system downtime. They send replacement product but they aren't paying for the lost weeks of productivity. We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding which project to try it on. But our big concern about using it is not only the inability to confirm open circuit voltage of the strings but also the way panels bypass if the device doesn't allow the panel to connect properly. Both of these features are a recipe for problems and potential troubleshooting nightmares. The warranty from Tigo doesn't cover our expense if the product fails. And that's really what our reservations about the product boil down to right now. If we're on a job with 50 units and one fails, the contractor or the homeowner will be the ones eating the expense of finding it and replacing it. There has to be a better option. Sky Sims Https://EcologicalSystems.biz On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: Now that 690.12 of the _NEC_ 2017 has been in effect for several years, I am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS principle, and as best I can determine the _Tigo_ TS4-F device is one of the simplest options currently available on the market. What are others finding? I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown. Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules padding: 0; font-family: monospace;">_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [3] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [4] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [5] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [7] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Apr 29 10:03:44 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 10:03:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Used FM 80 Message-ID: <879f68caf1ca73482519c4170ccae523@redwoodalliance.org> How much would you pay for an FM 80 manufactured in 03/2012? It works. It came out of a system with 4 controllers, one failed? I want to use it for a temporary, while failed controllers are in the shop or having replacements shipped. -- From ray at solarray.com Wed Apr 29 15:07:29 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 15:07:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> References: <5ADE39AD-6C89-4B04-986F-BEBB0A8C57D3@ecologicalsystems.biz> <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <41feeee0-03ea-7e67-f9a9-a7f862948fbb@solarray.com> I agree, 690.12 should have exemptions for lower voltage, lower power systems, and shorter runs; especially off grid.  10 years ago, I was promoting some type of remote controlled disconnect at the array, but that was for voltages over 400v, with unprotected conduit runs over a 100 ft long, on systems over 10 kW. For off grid where reliability is the number one safety issue, we've gone back to pole mounts to avoid 690.12.  If the temperature goes below zero, and the customer is snow bound, having the Rapid disconnect trip off is NOT creating a safer situation.  They need heat, unfrozen water supply, and communications.    Rural VFDs are not going to usually even get up on the roof anyway.  That's a scenario for in town, when they can respond in less than 10 minutes. Actually for residential systems in rural areas, the only person that is going to get hurt on the roof is the customer trying to reset the Rapid Disconnect, not the Fire Department.  Maybe the NEC task groups will finally see that fire fighter safety needs to be balanced with the safety of the people they are trying to protect. I hope that the NEC could reach this conclusion before an untrained home owner breaks their neck. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/29/20 10:17 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and reduces reliability. Given > the excellent safety record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being > required, it is unnecessary. The few anecdotal incidents of PV fires > were not enough to justify the requirement, especially on smaller > systems. > > According to a friend who worked for a local installation company that > went under, a big part of the reason for their failure was the chronic > replacement of microinverters and optimizers. > > What steps can be taken to create some balance in the rapid shutdown > requirements that are in the NEC? > > > --- > > > On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: > >> So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It's added a lot of cost >> for no measurable benefit. >> Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it >> impossible to test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door to >> tons of problems when commissioning systems. >> Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's product and have had an >> absurd failure rate. Which means lots of truck rolls and >> troubleshooting and system downtime. They send replacement product >> but they aren't paying for the lost weeks of productivity. >> We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding which project to try it >> on. But our big concern about using it is not only the inability to >> confirm open circuit voltage of the strings but also the way panels >> bypass if the device doesn't allow the panel to connect properly. >> Both of these features are a recipe for problems and potential >> troubleshooting nightmares. The warranty from Tigo doesn't cover our >> expense if the product fails. And that's really what our reservations >> about the product boil down to right now. If we're on a job with 50 >> units and one fails, the contractor or the homeowner will be the ones >> eating the expense of finding it and replacing it. There has to be a >> better option. >> >> Sky Sims >> Https://EcologicalSystems.biz >> >>> On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey Shalanski >>> wrote: >>> >>> Now that 690.12 of the /NEC/ 2017 has been in effect for several >>> years, I am curious how designers and installers are meeting the >>> associated requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* >>> considering microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan >>> of the KISS principle, and as best I can determine the /Tigo/ TS4-F >>> device is one of the simplest options currently available on the >>> market. What are others finding? >>> I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid >>> shutdown. Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? >>> -- >>> Corey Shalanski >>> Jah Light Solar >>> Portland, Jamaica >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 15:25:22 2020 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 14:25:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: <3eb426a1b52eb504a78b418067f7b184@127.0.0.1> References: <5ADE39AD-6C89-4B04-986F-BEBB0A8C57D3@ecologicalsystems.biz> <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> <3eb426a1b52eb504a78b418067f7b184@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: my two cents worth, 690.11 says turn off from all arcs, that means serial and parallel that means module lwevel shutdown -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Apr 29 16:01:49 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 16:01:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> References: <5ADE39AD-6C89-4B04-986F-BEBB0A8C57D3@ecologicalsystems.biz> <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: I have been to several PV fires for string inverter systems, both commercial and residential, and have seen many DC systems at serious risk of fires or in various stages of melted insulation and connectors. Most of these systems have exhibited good to excellent workmanship. Things just went wrong. Some were traceable to animal damage, wind, or other unmitigated factors, and some were unexplained. I disagree that there isn't justification for rapid shutdown. In my opinion, what we need is some additional innovation and competition in the MLPE space. Reliability is clearly a key factor, but there is no denying that MLPE has added safety benefits among other benefits. And if you do enough volume and set up your business for efficiency (standardization of product offerings), MLPE isn't much more expensive. It becomes a negligible cost relative to the benefit. The value proposition is easy to convey. There are limits to this, but for the majority of residential and small commercial installations, MLPE has become the de facto standard around here. String inverters are dinos, and replacing 8-12 year old transformer based inverters is many times more annoying than some MLPE swaps. I will admit that the roofs around here are pretty easy to walk, so that is a factor that might not apply to you. If you go under due to manufacturer product failures, you are not writing your contracts right or not charging enough for service issues beyond your control. I believe that's a red herring. You might suffer some reputation damage, but for someone that has been installing MLPE for over a decade, that is totally manageable. Consumers find a service call to replace MLPE a LOT more palatable than a surprise inverter replacement that could cost thousands of dollars. People just don't plan for that. Regarding rapid shutdown devices, I have also come across a few that "someone" has bypassed around here. I don't know if they were never installed properly or disabled/bypassed due to failure. It seemed suspicious to me at the time. I remember that it made me wonder what good is a rapid shutdown device if it is easily defeated? That's another argument for MLPE. It has pretty failsafe MLPE functionality. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:59 AM wrote: > Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and reduces reliability. Given the > excellent safety record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being required, it > is unnecessary. The few anecdotal incidents of PV fires were not enough to > justify the requirement, especially on smaller systems. > > According to a friend who worked for a local installation company that > went under, a big part of the reason for their failure was the chronic > replacement of microinverters and optimizers. > > What steps can be taken to create some balance in the rapid shutdown > requirements that are in the NEC? > > > --- > > > > On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: > > So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It's added a lot of cost for > no measurable benefit. > Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it impossible > to test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door to tons of problems > when commissioning systems. > Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's product and have had an absurd > failure rate. Which means lots of truck rolls and troubleshooting and > system downtime. They send replacement product but they aren't paying for > the lost weeks of productivity. > We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding which project to try it on. > But our big concern about using it is not only the inability to confirm > open circuit voltage of the strings but also the way panels bypass if the > device doesn't allow the panel to connect properly. Both of these features > are a recipe for problems and potential troubleshooting nightmares. The > warranty from Tigo doesn't cover our expense if the product fails. And > that's really what our reservations about the product boil down to right > now. If we're on a job with 50 units and one fails, the contractor or the > homeowner will be the ones eating the expense of finding it and replacing > it. There has to be a better option. > > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > > On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > > Now that 690.12 of the *NEC* 2017 has been in effect for several years, I > am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated > requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering > microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS > principle, and as best I can determine the *Tigo* TS4-F device is one of > the simplest options currently available on the market. What are others > finding? > > I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown. > Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Apr 29 22:05:20 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 22:05:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: <397a4a81b7f6d6c7d49761945fe86e45@redwoodalliance.org> References: <5ADE39AD-6C89-4B04-986F-BEBB0A8C57D3@ecologicalsystems.biz> <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> <397a4a81b7f6d6c7d49761945fe86e45@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: "Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires." Not true. If the effect of RS is to steer the market to MLPE, I believe it has a significant impact on reducing fire risk. As one who has watched a DC conductor fire smolder out of control, I am sold on an AC module or microinverter architecture. While RS on a DC array doesn't necessarily reduce fire risk within the array, it still has the potential to reduce severity and spread. Nothing is going to prevent all fires. I get that. We're talking about risk mitigation when it comes to RS. As for "dependable string inverters," the one dependable feature is failure at least once in the module lifetime, accompanied by a shocking repair bill. I'm not a shiny object following kind of guy, but the writing is on the wall. MLPE is the future. Modular, serviceable, disposable if you will. Like it or not, Edison is going to lose this battle to Tesla (Tom vs Nikola). And I live less than 5 minutes away from Tommy E's winter home in Fort Myers, FL. And I "grew up" in the industry living off-grid in DC power. But AC distribution wins for safety at various scales. On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 9:42 PM wrote: > Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires; it was originally drafted to allow > firefighters to vent a roof without being hindered by energized PV arrays. > This rule was expanded to include other DC wiring from PV sources. > > As for PV safety, I’d like to see some significant, statistical evidence > that shows there is a major fire danger from PV relative to other sources. > A fire from a solar array gets a lot more press than one from a gas leak, > bad wiring or an ash tray emptied into a wastepaper basket. > > Large public buildings should have all the protection that is available. > Does one size fit all? > > Would it be reasonable to allow residential installations under 12 kW, > with 1/4 of the roof adjacent to the array available for venting, to be > excepted from 690.12? What about sparsely occupied commercial buildings > with ample roof area open for ventilation? > > Many of us have chosen to work with renewable energy technology to lessen > the harms caused by fossil fuel extraction and combustion. The need for > non-carbon based energy sources has become extremely clear. > > The old string inverters still chug along year after year, with little or > no maintenance. Someone must pay for the ongoing maintenance of module > level electronics. Dependable string inverter systems should be allowed > unless statically significant danger can be demonstrated. > > Drake > --- > > > > On 2020-04-29 16:01, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I have been to several PV fires for string inverter systems, both > commercial and residential, and have seen many DC systems at serious risk > of fires or in various stages of melted insulation and connectors. Most of > these systems have exhibited good to excellent workmanship. Things just > went wrong. Some were traceable to animal damage, wind, or other > unmitigated factors, and some were unexplained. I disagree that there isn't > justification for rapid shutdown. > > In my opinion, what we need is some additional innovation and competition > in the MLPE space. Reliability is clearly a key factor, but there is no > denying that MLPE has added safety benefits among other benefits. And if > you do enough volume and set up your business for efficiency > (standardization of product offerings), MLPE isn't much more expensive. It > becomes a negligible cost relative to the benefit. The value proposition is > easy to convey. There are limits to this, but for the majority of > residential and small commercial installations, MLPE has become the de > facto standard around here. String inverters are dinos, and replacing 8-12 > year old transformer based inverters is many times more annoying than some > MLPE swaps. I will admit that the roofs around here are pretty easy to > walk, so that is a factor that might not apply to you. > > If you go under due to manufacturer product failures, you are not writing > your contracts right or not charging enough for service issues beyond your > control. I believe that's a red herring. You might suffer some reputation > damage, but for someone that has been installing MLPE for over a decade, > that is totally manageable. Consumers find a service call to replace MLPE a > LOT more palatable than a surprise inverter replacement that could cost > thousands of dollars. People just don't plan for that. > > Regarding rapid shutdown devices, I have also come across a few that > "someone" has bypassed around here. I don't know if they were never > installed properly or disabled/bypassed due to failure. It seemed > suspicious to me at the time. I remember that it made me wonder what good > is a rapid shutdown device if it is easily defeated? That's another > argument for MLPE. It has pretty failsafe MLPE functionality. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:59 AM > wrote: > > Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and reduces reliability. Given the > excellent safety record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being required, it > is unnecessary. The few anecdotal incidents of PV fires were not enough to > justify the requirement, especially on smaller systems. > > According to a friend who worked for a local installation company that > went under, a big part of the reason for their failure was the chronic > replacement of microinverters and optimizers. > > What steps can be taken to create some balance in the rapid shutdown > requirements that are in the NEC? > > > --- > > > > On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: > > So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It's added a lot of cost for > no measurable benefit. > Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it impossible > to test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door to tons of problems > when commissioning systems. > Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's product and have had an absurd > failure rate. Which means lots of truck rolls and troubleshooting and > system downtime. They send replacement product but they aren't paying for > the lost weeks of productivity. > We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding which project to try it on. > But our big concern about using it is not only the inability to confirm > open circuit voltage of the strings but also the way panels bypass if the > device doesn't allow the panel to connect properly. Both of these features > are a recipe for problems and potential troubleshooting nightmares. The > warranty from Tigo doesn't cover our expense if the product fails. And > that's really what our reservations about the product boil down to right > now. If we're on a job with 50 units and one fails, the contractor or the > homeowner will be the ones eating the expense of finding it and replacing > it. There has to be a better option. > > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > > On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > > Now that 690.12 of the *NEC* 2017 has been in effect for several years, I > am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated > requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering > microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS > principle, and as best I can determine the *Tigo* TS4-F device is one of > the simplest options currently available on the market. What are others > finding? > > I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown. > Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Y > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Apr 29 21:42:40 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 21:42:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: References: <5ADE39AD-6C89-4B04-986F-BEBB0A8C57D3@ecologicalsystems.biz> <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <397a4a81b7f6d6c7d49761945fe86e45@redwoodalliance.org> Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires; it was originally drafted to allow firefighters to vent a roof without being hindered by energized PV arrays. This rule was expanded to include other DC wiring from PV sources. As for PV safety, I'd like to see some significant, statistical evidence that shows there is a major fire danger from PV relative to other sources. A fire from a solar array gets a lot more press than one from a gas leak, bad wiring or an ash tray emptied into a wastepaper basket. Large public buildings should have all the protection that is available. Does one size fit all? Would it be reasonable to allow residential installations under 12 kW, with 1/4 of the roof adjacent to the array available for venting, to be excepted from 690.12? What about sparsely occupied commercial buildings with ample roof area open for ventilation? Many of us have chosen to work with renewable energy technology to lessen the harms caused by fossil fuel extraction and combustion. The need for non-carbon based energy sources has become extremely clear. The old string inverters still chug along year after year, with little or no maintenance. Someone must pay for the ongoing maintenance of module level electronics. Dependable string inverter systems should be allowed unless statically significant danger can be demonstrated. Drake --- On 2020-04-29 16:01, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > I have been to several PV fires for string inverter systems, both commercial and residential, and have seen many DC systems at serious risk of fires or in various stages of melted insulation and connectors. Most of these systems have exhibited good to excellent workmanship. Things just went wrong. Some were traceable to animal damage, wind, or other unmitigated factors, and some were unexplained. I disagree that there isn't justification for rapid shutdown. > > In my opinion, what we need is some additional innovation and competition in the MLPE space. Reliability is clearly a key factor, but there is no denying that MLPE has added safety benefits among other benefits. And if you do enough volume and set up your business for efficiency (standardization of product offerings), MLPE isn't much more expensive. It becomes a negligible cost relative to the benefit. The value proposition is easy to convey. There are limits to this, but for the majority of residential and small commercial installations, MLPE has become the de facto standard around here. String inverters are dinos, and replacing 8-12 year old transformer based inverters is many times more annoying than some MLPE swaps. I will admit that the roofs around here are pretty easy to walk, so that is a factor that might not apply to you. > > If you go under due to manufacturer product failures, you are not writing your contracts right or not charging enough for service issues beyond your control. I believe that's a red herring. You might suffer some reputation damage, but for someone that has been installing MLPE for over a decade, that is totally manageable. Consumers find a service call to replace MLPE a LOT more palatable than a surprise inverter replacement that could cost thousands of dollars. People just don't plan for that. > > Regarding rapid shutdown devices, I have also come across a few that "someone" has bypassed around here. I don't know if they were never installed properly or disabled/bypassed due to failure. It seemed suspicious to me at the time. I remember that it made me wonder what good is a rapid shutdown device if it is easily defeated? That's another argument for MLPE. It has pretty failsafe MLPE functionality. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:59 AM wrote: > > Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and reduces reliability. Given the excellent safety record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being required, it is unnecessary. The few anecdotal incidents of PV fires were not enough to justify the requirement, especially on smaller systems. > > According to a friend who worked for a local installation company that went under, a big part of the reason for their failure was the chronic replacement of microinverters and optimizers. > > What steps can be taken to create some balance in the rapid shutdown requirements that are in the NEC? > > --- > > On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: > > So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It's added a lot of cost for no measurable benefit. > Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it impossible to test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door to tons of problems when commissioning systems. > Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's product and have had an absurd failure rate. Which means lots of truck rolls and troubleshooting and system downtime. They send replacement product but they aren't paying for the lost weeks of productivity. > We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding which project to try it on. But our big concern about using it is not only the inability to confirm open circuit voltage of the strings but also the way panels bypass if the device doesn't allow the panel to connect properly. Both of these features are a recipe for problems and potential troubleshooting nightmares. The warranty from Tigo doesn't cover our expense if the product fails. And that's really what our reservations about the product boil down to right now. If we're on a job with 50 units and one fails, the contractor or the homeowner will be the ones eating the expense of finding it and replacing it. There has to be a better option. > > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > > On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > > Now that 690.12 of the _NEC_ 2017 has been in effect for several years, I am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS principle, and as best I can determine the _Tigo_ TS4-F device is one of the simplest options currently available on the market. What are others finding? > > I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown. Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [1] > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [2] > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [3] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [4] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [8] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [14] Links: ------ [1] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/48741004c205351e1fd6a97d2252c71188d81e71?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=56977124ac95b63a [2] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/b02b5a7da549db8b06246de6ff83408a2d397f16?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&userId=1613865&signature=2505444a6c7e76e8 [3] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/14307b48a5cf21a014a9767754fb9e3faa3e7b78?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=c9675ece76eedbfe [4] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/917ce495ba8f7369e01489e6fbe01e0c529c5c1a?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=f07b8c2e5b7272c1 [5] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/53e92374f477c4523c84f04b60d9235e042fe484?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=05c2b8925c2cca9b [6] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/64b8ad23a59b7db17c7803f561209f2ec8fcd931?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&userId=1613865&signature=851e5d5b1ad7c5c6 [7] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/1b9d76c7044d5f000ec9d0dc76ffe05711e667c0?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=06c42b3c6357f539 [8] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/df315d52bf0b1d7387cef78766012f742e8a6642?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=c3967f238393d77c [9] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/293b35354380ac1970c6a01c39adb66144564dbf?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=733dc831fc029701 [10] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/4b39d310624bc3f043f6541c22bd38f7ae43620b?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&userId=1613865&signature=4568169f724351ec [11] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/1a3c4c9b301c7d3a44855867469231a53c1de036?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=8d57f550c03f31fc [12] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/55a1c3702348098b72ae7057204e6fe1c0ee44ad?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=81fe3e4f78a351f9 [13] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 02:33:53 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 23:33:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: <32026157-40F8-4E77-A590-96624B18E9BA@gmail.com> References: <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> <32026157-40F8-4E77-A590-96624B18E9BA@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches We are taking two very different issues and mixing them together. RSD and Arc-fault are different, arc fault will and does prevent fires, RSD was brought out of the need to vent a roof that even with the meter pulled have 500 volts and resulted shocks to fire fighters by cutting into roofs or nearby conduite. This is fact not conjecture. Arc fault is a fire preventer but requires nothing on the roof when using string level inverters. Now both RSD and arc-fault in off grid increase the complexity but the new charge controllers fit the arc and Tigo fixes the RSD issues. I know everyone of you learned to use a smart phone and can now adapt again to this new tech, we have to be leaders in this industry and not well you know. Jerry NABCEP PV Inspector. Been in this industry since 1978 On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 6:57 PM Jay wrote: > Hi Drake > > I will disagree, there have been many roof top fires. > > But regardless we have to do these new regulations and I for one welcome > the safety. > > The main issue is accessing the faulty/suspect component under the module > possibly requiring removing multiple modules, a slow and expensive process. > > My technique is to install the MLPE at the edges of the array, using wire > extensions. That way at most I have to remove a single module. And Im > working on a drop bracket which would allow better cooling and easier > access without module removal to the MLPE, greatly reducing time to swap. > > Jay > > Peltz Power. > > > > > > On Apr 29, 2020, at 7:59 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > >  > > Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and reduces reliability. Given the > excellent safety record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being required, it > is unnecessary. The few anecdotal incidents of PV fires were not enough to > justify the requirement, especially on smaller systems. > > According to a friend who worked for a local installation company that > went under, a big part of the reason for their failure was the chronic > replacement of microinverters and optimizers. > > What steps can be taken to create some balance in the rapid shutdown > requirements that are in the NEC? > > > --- > > > > On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: > > So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It's added a lot of cost for > no measurable benefit. > Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it impossible > to test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door to tons of problems > when commissioning systems. > Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's product and have had an absurd > failure rate. Which means lots of truck rolls and troubleshooting and > system downtime. They send replacement product but they aren't paying for > the lost weeks of productivity. > We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding which project to try it on. > But our big concern about using it is not only the inability to confirm > open circuit voltage of the strings but also the way panels bypass if the > device doesn't allow the panel to connect properly. Both of these features > are a recipe for problems and potential troubleshooting nightmares. The > warranty from Tigo doesn't cover our expense if the product fails. And > that's really what our reservations about the product boil down to right > now. If we're on a job with 50 units and one fails, the contractor or the > homeowner will be the ones eating the expense of finding it and replacing > it. There has to be a better option. > > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > > On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > > Now that 690.12 of the *NEC* 2017 has been in effect for several years, I > am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated > requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering > microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS > principle, and as best I can determine the *Tigo* TS4-F device is one of > the simplest options currently available on the market. What are others > finding? > > I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown. > Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Thu Apr 30 08:41:55 2020 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 08:41:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage In-Reply-To: <77BED4CF-4330-409B-8B89-CE476E878DDD@gmail.com> References: <77BED4CF-4330-409B-8B89-CE476E878DDD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Howie, The timer does not reset when voltage dips below EQ, it just stops counting. So sometimes after 3 hours of EQ, the timer may have only counted down 30 minutes. Jay, I did try lowering the EQ voltage. When it was set to 62V, the voltage would hover at 62.0 and 61.9, then when it was lowered to 61.6V it hovers around 61.6 and 61.5. Lots of good info and ideas here, thanks all. -Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 7:46 PM jay wrote: > Hi Dave, > > Only thing I would check is to see if lowering the eq by 1 volt changes > anything. IE the batteries are just struggling to keep up. > > But the CC should tell you what mode it’s in right? IE is it regulating or > is it full power. Either in the menus or just looking at VMP/watts > > If it’s regulating then it’s on the OB side > > If it’s max power then it’s on the battery side > > Jay Peltz > > On Apr 28, 2020, at 6:50 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Hi All, > > I've got an outback system (Radian 8048A, 2 FM80, 16 Trojan L16RE-B) where > when the customer equalizes, the batteries hover right around the EQ > voltage, but will often dip to 0.1v less. Because of this, the EQ timer > does not count down properly, and so left to its own devices the system > would equalize for way longer than it should, potentially forever. This > will happen when doing an EQ from the solar on a bright sunny day, or the > generator, or both. The customer can manually keep track of the time and > manually stop the EQ after 3 hours, but that is not ideal. Has anyone dealt > with this before and have any suggestions on how they fixed it? > > This system is 3-4 years old, and the issue only started in the past year > or so. > > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 30 10:12:23 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 10:12:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: References: <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> <32026157-40F8-4E77-A590-96624B18E9BA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <98326a24-8590-a2f2-df81-83c07c79660a@solarray.com> Hi Jerry; This isn't about us not being willing to learn the tech.  All of us are constantly learning about new code changes, new inverters, and solar modules that change specs every few months.  We are voluntarily adopting new technology (like Lithium Ion batteries) when that technology is cost effective and reliable. To continue your smart phone analogy, the current situation is like forcing people in the country to give up their hard lines, when their is only spotty 3G service available in their area.  Its not that we are Luddites; the equipment is still not quite ready for prime time.   Having some basic exemptions for small, lower voltage systems off grid is not unreasonable. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/30/20 2:33 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > We are taking two very different issues and mixing them together. RSD > and Arc-fault are different, arc fault will and does prevent fires, > RSD was brought out of the need to vent a roof that even with the > meter pulled have 500 volts and resulted shocks to fire fighters by > cutting into roofs or nearby conduite. This is fact not conjecture. > Arc fault is a fire preventer but requires nothing on the roof when > using string level inverters. Now both RSD and arc-fault in off grid > increase the complexity but the new charge controllers fit the arc and > Tigo fixes the RSD issues. > I know everyone of you learned to use a smart phone and can now adapt > again to this new tech, we have to be leaders in this industry and not > well you know. > Jerry > NABCEP PV Inspector. > Been in this industry since 1978 > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 6:57 PM Jay > wrote: > > Hi Drake > > I will disagree, there have been many roof top fires. > > But regardless we have to do these new regulations and I for one > welcome the safety. > > The main issue is accessing the faulty/suspect component under the > module possibly requiring removing multiple modules, a slow and > expensive process. > > My technique is to install the MLPE at the edges of the array, > using wire extensions. That way at most I have to remove a single > module.  And Im working on a drop bracket which would allow better > cooling and easier access without module removal to the MLPE, > greatly reducing time to swap. > > Jay > > Peltz Power. > > > > > >> On Apr 29, 2020, at 7:59 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and reduces reliability. >> Given the excellent safety record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown >> being required, it is unnecessary. The few anecdotal incidents of >> PV fires were not enough to justify the requirement, especially >> on smaller systems. >> >> According to a friend who worked for a local installation company >> that went under, a big part of the reason for their failure was >> the chronic replacement of microinverters and optimizers. >> >> What steps can be taken to create some balance in the rapid >> shutdown requirements that are in the NEC? >> >> >> --- >> >> >> On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: >> >>> So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It's added a lot of >>> cost for no measurable benefit. >>> Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it >>> impossible to test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door >>> to tons of problems when commissioning systems. >>> Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's product and have had >>> an absurd failure rate. Which means lots of truck rolls and >>> troubleshooting and system downtime. They send replacement >>> product but they aren't paying for the lost weeks of productivity. >>> We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding which project to >>> try it on. But our big concern about using it is not only the >>> inability to confirm open circuit voltage of the strings but >>> also the way panels bypass if the device doesn't allow the panel >>> to connect properly. Both of these features are a recipe for >>> problems and potential troubleshooting nightmares. The warranty >>> from Tigo doesn't cover our expense if the product fails. And >>> that's really what our reservations about the product boil down >>> to right now. If we're on a job with 50 units and one fails, the >>> contractor or the homeowner will be the ones eating the expense >>> of finding it and replacing it. There has to be a better option. >>> >>> Sky Sims >>> Https://EcologicalSystems.biz >>> >>>> On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey Shalanski >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Now that 690.12 of the /NEC/ 2017 has been in effect for >>>> several years, I am curious how designers and installers are >>>> meeting the associated requirements with string inverter-based >>>> systems (*not* considering microinverters or DC optimizers). I >>>> am generally a fan of the KISS principle, and as best I can >>>> determine the /Tigo/ TS4-F device is one of the simplest >>>> options currently available on the market. What are others >>>> finding? >>>> I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid >>>> shutdown. Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? >>>> -- >>>> Corey Shalanski >>>> Jah Light Solar >>>> Portland, Jamaica >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Thu Apr 30 10:36:35 2020 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 07:36:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: <98326a24-8590-a2f2-df81-83c07c79660a@solarray.com> References: <98326a24-8590-a2f2-df81-83c07c79660a@solarray.com> Message-ID: Deadline for 2023 NEC® public input is in September. Brian > On Apr 30, 2020, at 7:12 AM, Ray wrote: > >  > Hi Jerry; > > This isn't about us not being willing to learn the tech. All of us are constantly learning about new code changes, new inverters, and solar modules that change specs every few months. We are voluntarily adopting new technology (like Lithium Ion batteries) when that technology is cost effective and reliable. > > To continue your smart phone analogy, the current situation is like forcing people in the country to give up their hard lines, when their is only spotty 3G service available in their area. Its not that we are Luddites; the equipment is still not quite ready for prime time. Having some basic exemptions for small, lower voltage systems off grid is not unreasonable. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 >> On 4/30/20 2:33 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >> Wrenches >> We are taking two very different issues and mixing them together. RSD and Arc-fault are different, arc fault will and does prevent fires, RSD was brought out of the need to vent a roof that even with the meter pulled have 500 volts and resulted shocks to fire fighters by cutting into roofs or nearby conduite. This is fact not conjecture. >> Arc fault is a fire preventer but requires nothing on the roof when using string level inverters. Now both RSD and arc-fault in off grid increase the complexity but the new charge controllers fit the arc and Tigo fixes the RSD issues. >> I know everyone of you learned to use a smart phone and can now adapt again to this new tech, we have to be leaders in this industry and not well you know. >> Jerry >> NABCEP PV Inspector. >> Been in this industry since 1978 >> >> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 6:57 PM Jay wrote: >>> Hi Drake >>> >>> I will disagree, there have been many roof top fires. >>> >>> But regardless we have to do these new regulations and I for one welcome the safety. >>> >>> The main issue is accessing the faulty/suspect component under the module possibly requiring removing multiple modules, a slow and expensive process. >>> >>> My technique is to install the MLPE at the edges of the array, using wire extensions. That way at most I have to remove a single module. And Im working on a drop bracket which would allow better cooling and easier access without module removal to the MLPE, greatly reducing time to swap. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> Peltz Power. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Apr 29, 2020, at 7:59 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and reduces reliability. Given the excellent safety record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being required, it is unnecessary. The few anecdotal incidents of PV fires were not enough to justify the requirement, especially on smaller systems. >>>> >>>> According to a friend who worked for a local installation company that went under, a big part of the reason for their failure was the chronic replacement of microinverters and optimizers. >>>> >>>> What steps can be taken to create some balance in the rapid shutdown requirements that are in the NEC? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: >>>>> >>>>> So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It's added a lot of cost for no measurable benefit. >>>>> Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it impossible to test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door to tons of problems when commissioning systems. >>>>> Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's product and have had an absurd failure rate. Which means lots of truck rolls and troubleshooting and system downtime. They send replacement product but they aren't paying for the lost weeks of productivity. >>>>> We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding which project to try it on. But our big concern about using it is not only the inability to confirm open circuit voltage of the strings but also the way panels bypass if the device doesn't allow the panel to connect properly. Both of these features are a recipe for problems and potential troubleshooting nightmares. The warranty from Tigo doesn't cover our expense if the product fails. And that's really what our reservations about the product boil down to right now. If we're on a job with 50 units and one fails, the contractor or the homeowner will be the ones eating the expense of finding it and replacing it. There has to be a better option. >>>>> >>>>> Sky Sims >>>>> Https://EcologicalSystems.biz >>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Now that 690.12 of the NEC 2017 has been in effect for several years, I am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS principle, and as best I can determine the Tigo TS4-F device is one of the simplest options currently available on the market. What are others finding? >>>>>> >>>>>> I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown. Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Corey Shalanski >>>>>> Jah Light Solar >>>>>> Portland, Jamaica >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Apr 30 11:10:00 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 08:10:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: <98326a24-8590-a2f2-df81-83c07c79660a@solarray.com> References: <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> <32026157-40F8-4E77-A590-96624B18E9BA@gmail.com> <98326a24-8590-a2f2-df81-83c07c79660a@solarray.com> Message-ID: All - Ray has a good point, the discussion here is really about two different types of systems - mainstream ongrid PV, and small scale (and a relatively small market) offgrid PV. It's really tough to design a small offgrid system (especially DC coupled) with rapid shutdown. I think it's just a case that the market is so small that the manufactures aren't focusing their products on it. Our business doesn't do much offgrid, so I'm not familiar with the products but understand the difficulty. For ongrid PV with or without energy storage, I still argue that MPLE or microinverters are 100% the now and future, and fighting against that is a losing battle. I think we should see more and more offgrid ability coming from the big players SolarEdge, Tesla, (maybe Enphase) etc which will all be easy to pair with rapid shutdown enabled PV. August On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 7:12 AM Ray wrote: > Hi Jerry; > > This isn't about us not being willing to learn the tech. All of us are > constantly learning about new code changes, new inverters, and solar > modules that change specs every few months. We are voluntarily adopting > new technology (like Lithium Ion batteries) when that technology is cost > effective and reliable. > > To continue your smart phone analogy, the current situation is like > forcing people in the country to give up their hard lines, when their is > only spotty 3G service available in their area. Its not that we are > Luddites; the equipment is still not quite ready for prime time. Having > some basic exemptions for small, lower voltage systems off grid is not > unreasonable. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 4/30/20 2:33 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > We are taking two very different issues and mixing them together. RSD and > Arc-fault are different, arc fault will and does prevent fires, RSD was > brought out of the need to vent a roof that even with the meter pulled have > 500 volts and resulted shocks to fire fighters by cutting into roofs or > nearby conduite. This is fact not conjecture. > Arc fault is a fire preventer but requires nothing on the roof when using > string level inverters. Now both RSD and arc-fault in off grid increase the > complexity but the new charge controllers fit the arc and Tigo fixes the > RSD issues. > I know everyone of you learned to use a smart phone and can now adapt > again to this new tech, we have to be leaders in this industry and not well > you know. > Jerry > NABCEP PV Inspector. > Been in this industry since 1978 > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 6:57 PM Jay wrote: > >> Hi Drake >> >> I will disagree, there have been many roof top fires. >> >> But regardless we have to do these new regulations and I for one welcome >> the safety. >> >> The main issue is accessing the faulty/suspect component under the module >> possibly requiring removing multiple modules, a slow and expensive process. >> >> My technique is to install the MLPE at the edges of the array, using wire >> extensions. That way at most I have to remove a single module. And Im >> working on a drop bracket which would allow better cooling and easier >> access without module removal to the MLPE, greatly reducing time to swap. >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz Power. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Apr 29, 2020, at 7:59 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >> >>  >> >> Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and reduces reliability. Given the >> excellent safety record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being required, it >> is unnecessary. The few anecdotal incidents of PV fires were not enough to >> justify the requirement, especially on smaller systems. >> >> According to a friend who worked for a local installation company that >> went under, a big part of the reason for their failure was the chronic >> replacement of microinverters and optimizers. >> >> What steps can be taken to create some balance in the rapid shutdown >> requirements that are in the NEC? >> >> >> --- >> >> >> >> On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: >> >> So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It's added a lot of cost for >> no measurable benefit. >> Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it impossible >> to test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door to tons of problems >> when commissioning systems. >> Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's product and have had an >> absurd failure rate. Which means lots of truck rolls and troubleshooting >> and system downtime. They send replacement product but they aren't paying >> for the lost weeks of productivity. >> We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding which project to try it on. >> But our big concern about using it is not only the inability to confirm >> open circuit voltage of the strings but also the way panels bypass if the >> device doesn't allow the panel to connect properly. Both of these features >> are a recipe for problems and potential troubleshooting nightmares. The >> warranty from Tigo doesn't cover our expense if the product fails. And >> that's really what our reservations about the product boil down to right >> now. If we're on a job with 50 units and one fails, the contractor or the >> homeowner will be the ones eating the expense of finding it and replacing >> it. There has to be a better option. >> >> Sky Sims >> Https://EcologicalSystems.biz >> >> On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: >> >> Now that 690.12 of the *NEC* 2017 has been in effect for several years, >> I am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated >> requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering >> microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS >> principle, and as best I can determine the *Tigo* TS4-F device is one of >> the simplest options currently available on the market. What are others >> finding? >> >> I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown. >> Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? >> >> -- >> Corey Shalanski >> Jah Light Solar >> Portland, Jamaica >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Apr 30 11:18:10 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 11:18:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: References: <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> <32026157-40F8-4E77-A590-96624B18E9BA@gmail.com> <98326a24-8590-a2f2-df81-83c07c79660a@solarray.com> Message-ID: <5FF0C645-A9A3-4A30-8F89-48C1D9FCEB09@swnl.net> I agree w/ Ray as most of my work is Off grid. Incorporating addition failure points ( RSD modules. optimizers ect.) for a system that is usually quite a distance from service, be it my service or the fire departments, I find the justification very hard. Ive replaced your micro inverters at 0* due to failure. Still am not to comfortable w/ them. > On Apr 30, 2020, at 11:10 AM, August Goers wrote: > > All - Ray has a good point, the discussion here is really about two different types of systems - mainstream ongrid PV, and small scale (and a relatively small market) offgrid PV. It's really tough to design a small offgrid system (especially DC coupled) with rapid shutdown. I think it's just a case that the market is so small that the manufactures aren't focusing their products on it. Our business doesn't do much offgrid, so I'm not familiar with the products but understand the difficulty. For ongrid PV with or without energy storage, I still argue that MPLE or microinverters are 100% the now and future, and fighting against that is a losing battle. > > I think we should see more and more offgrid ability coming from the big players SolarEdge, Tesla, (maybe Enphase) etc which will all be easy to pair with rapid shutdown enabled PV. > > August > > > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 7:12 AM Ray > wrote: > Hi Jerry; > > This isn't about us not being willing to learn the tech. All of us are constantly learning about new code changes, new inverters, and solar modules that change specs every few months. We are voluntarily adopting new technology (like Lithium Ion batteries) when that technology is cost effective and reliable. > To continue your smart phone analogy, the current situation is like forcing people in the country to give up their hard lines, when their is only spotty 3G service available in their area. Its not that we are Luddites; the equipment is still not quite ready for prime time. Having some basic exemptions for small, lower voltage systems off grid is not unreasonable. > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 4/30/20 2:33 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >> Wrenches >> We are taking two very different issues and mixing them together. RSD and Arc-fault are different, arc fault will and does prevent fires, RSD was brought out of the need to vent a roof that even with the meter pulled have 500 volts and resulted shocks to fire fighters by cutting into roofs or nearby conduite. This is fact not conjecture. >> Arc fault is a fire preventer but requires nothing on the roof when using string level inverters. Now both RSD and arc-fault in off grid increase the complexity but the new charge controllers fit the arc and Tigo fixes the RSD issues. >> I know everyone of you learned to use a smart phone and can now adapt again to this new tech, we have to be leaders in this industry and not well you know. >> Jerry >> NABCEP PV Inspector. >> Been in this industry since 1978 >> >> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 6:57 PM Jay > wrote: >> Hi Drake >> >> I will disagree, there have been many roof top fires. >> >> But regardless we have to do these new regulations and I for one welcome the safety. >> >> The main issue is accessing the faulty/suspect component under the module possibly requiring removing multiple modules, a slow and expensive process. >> >> My technique is to install the MLPE at the edges of the array, using wire extensions. That way at most I have to remove a single module. And Im working on a drop bracket which would allow better cooling and easier access without module removal to the MLPE, greatly reducing time to swap. >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz Power. >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Apr 29, 2020, at 7:59 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and reduces reliability. Given the excellent safety record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being required, it is unnecessary. The few anecdotal incidents of PV fires were not enough to justify the requirement, especially on smaller systems. >>> >>> According to a friend who worked for a local installation company that went under, a big part of the reason for their failure was the chronic replacement of microinverters and optimizers. >>> >>> What steps can be taken to create some balance in the rapid shutdown requirements that are in the NEC? >>> >>> >>> --- >>> >>> >>> On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: >>> >>>> So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It's added a lot of cost for no measurable benefit. >>>> Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it impossible to test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door to tons of problems when commissioning systems. >>>> Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's product and have had an absurd failure rate. Which means lots of truck rolls and troubleshooting and system downtime. They send replacement product but they aren't paying for the lost weeks of productivity. >>>> We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding which project to try it on. But our big concern about using it is not only the inability to confirm open circuit voltage of the strings but also the way panels bypass if the device doesn't allow the panel to connect properly. Both of these features are a recipe for problems and potential troubleshooting nightmares. The warranty from Tigo doesn't cover our expense if the product fails. And that's really what our reservations about the product boil down to right now. If we're on a job with 50 units and one fails, the contractor or the homeowner will be the ones eating the expense of finding it and replacing it. There has to be a better option. >>>> >>>> Sky Sims >>>> Https://EcologicalSystems.biz >>>> >>>>> On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey Shalanski > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Now that 690.12 of the NEC 2017 has been in effect for several years, I am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS principle, and as best I can determine the Tigo TS4-F device is one of the simplest options currently available on the market. What are others finding? >>>>> >>>>> I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown. Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Corey Shalanski >>>>> Jah Light Solar >>>>> Portland, Jamaica >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Apr 30 11:29:31 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 11:29:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: References: <5ADE39AD-6C89-4B04-986F-BEBB0A8C57D3@ecologicalsystems.biz> <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> <397a4a81b7f6d6c7d49761945fe86e45@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <782ffb653cfa3127d25ade3ea7aba25f@redwoodalliance.org> I would like to see real data on the fire risk of string inverters. Anecdotal problems are not data. The industry is definitely heading toward MLPE due to the rapid shutdown requirements. In many cases MLPE makes sense, in other cases it doesn't. Systems that are more cost effective and reliable can often be built by using string inverters. --- On 2020-04-29 22:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > "Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires." > > Not true. If the effect of RS is to steer the market to MLPE, I believe it has a significant impact on reducing fire risk. As one who has watched a DC conductor fire smolder out of control, I am sold on an AC module or microinverter architecture. While RS on a DC array doesn't necessarily reduce fire risk within the array, it still has the potential to reduce severity and spread. Nothing is going to prevent all fires. I get that. We're talking about risk mitigation when it comes to RS. > > As for "dependable string inverters," the one dependable feature is failure at least once in the module lifetime, accompanied by a shocking repair bill. > > I'm not a shiny object following kind of guy, but the writing is on the wall. MLPE is the future. Modular, serviceable, disposable if you will. Like it or not, Edison is going to lose this battle to Tesla (Tom vs Nikola). And I live less than 5 minutes away from Tommy E's winter home in Fort Myers, FL. And I "grew up" in the industry living off-grid in DC power. But AC distribution wins for safety at various scales. > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 9:42 PM wrote: > > Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires; it was originally drafted to allow firefighters to vent a roof without being hindered by energized PV arrays. This rule was expanded to include other DC wiring from PV sources. > > As for PV safety, I'd like to see some significant, statistical evidence that shows there is a major fire danger from PV relative to other sources. A fire from a solar array gets a lot more press than one from a gas leak, bad wiring or an ash tray emptied into a wastepaper basket. > > Large public buildings should have all the protection that is available. Does one size fit all? > > Would it be reasonable to allow residential installations under 12 kW, with 1/4 of the roof adjacent to the array available for venting, to be excepted from 690.12? What about sparsely occupied commercial buildings with ample roof area open for ventilation? > > Many of us have chosen to work with renewable energy technology to lessen the harms caused by fossil fuel extraction and combustion. The need for non-carbon based energy sources has become extremely clear. > > The old string inverters still chug along year after year, with little or no maintenance. Someone must pay for the ongoing maintenance of module level electronics. Dependable string inverter systems should be allowed unless statically significant danger can be demonstrated. > > Drake > > --- > > On 2020-04-29 16:01, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I have been to several PV fires for string inverter systems, both commercial and residential, and have seen many DC systems at serious risk of fires or in various stages of melted insulation and connectors. Most of these systems have exhibited good to excellent workmanship. Things just went wrong. Some were traceable to animal damage, wind, or other unmitigated factors, and some were unexplained. I disagree that there isn't justification for rapid shutdown. > > In my opinion, what we need is some additional innovation and competition in the MLPE space. Reliability is clearly a key factor, but there is no denying that MLPE has added safety benefits among other benefits. And if you do enough volume and set up your business for efficiency (standardization of product offerings), MLPE isn't much more expensive. It becomes a negligible cost relative to the benefit. The value proposition is easy to convey. There are limits to this, but for the majority of residential and small commercial installations, MLPE has become the de facto standard around here. String inverters are dinos, and replacing 8-12 year old transformer based inverters is many times more annoying than some MLPE swaps. I will admit that the roofs around here are pretty easy to walk, so that is a factor that might not apply to you. > > If you go under due to manufacturer product failures, you are not writing your contracts right or not charging enough for service issues beyond your control. I believe that's a red herring. You might suffer some reputation damage, but for someone that has been installing MLPE for over a decade, that is totally manageable. Consumers find a service call to replace MLPE a LOT more palatable than a surprise inverter replacement that could cost thousands of dollars. People just don't plan for that. > > Regarding rapid shutdown devices, I have also come across a few that "someone" has bypassed around here. I don't know if they were never installed properly or disabled/bypassed due to failure. It seemed suspicious to me at the time. I remember that it made me wonder what good is a rapid shutdown device if it is easily defeated? That's another argument for MLPE. It has pretty failsafe MLPE functionality. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:59 AM wrote: > > Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and reduces reliability. Given the excellent safety record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being required, it is unnecessary. The few anecdotal incidents of PV fires were not enough to justify the requirement, especially on smaller systems. > > According to a friend who worked for a local installation company that went under, a big part of the reason for their failure was the chronic replacement of microinverters and optimizers. > > What steps can be taken to create some balance in the rapid shutdown requirements that are in the NEC? > > --- > > On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: > > So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It's added a lot of cost for no measurable benefit. > Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it impossible to test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door to tons of problems when commissioning systems. > Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's product and have had an absurd failure rate. Which means lots of truck rolls and troubleshooting and system downtime. They send replacement product but they aren't paying for the lost weeks of productivity. > We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding which project to try it on. But our big concern about using it is not only the inability to confirm open circuit voltage of the strings but also the way panels bypass if the device doesn't allow the panel to connect properly. Both of these features are a recipe for problems and potential troubleshooting nightmares. The warranty from Tigo doesn't cover our expense if the product fails. And that's really what our reservations about the product boil down to right now. If we're on a job with 50 units and one fails, the contractor or the homeowner will be the ones eating the expense of finding it and replacing it. There has to be a better option. > > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > > On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > > Now that 690.12 of the _NEC_ 2017 has been in effect for several years, I am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS principle, and as best I can determine the _Tigo_ TS4-F device is one of the simplest options currently available on the market. What are others finding? > > I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown. Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [1] > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [2] > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [3] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [4] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [8] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [14] Y Links: ------ [1] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/48741004c205351e1fd6a97d2252c71188d81e71?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=56977124ac95b63a [2] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/b02b5a7da549db8b06246de6ff83408a2d397f16?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&userId=1613865&signature=2505444a6c7e76e8 [3] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/14307b48a5cf21a014a9767754fb9e3faa3e7b78?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=c9675ece76eedbfe [4] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/917ce495ba8f7369e01489e6fbe01e0c529c5c1a?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=f07b8c2e5b7272c1 [5] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/53e92374f477c4523c84f04b60d9235e042fe484?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=05c2b8925c2cca9b [6] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/64b8ad23a59b7db17c7803f561209f2ec8fcd931?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&userId=1613865&signature=851e5d5b1ad7c5c6 [7] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/1b9d76c7044d5f000ec9d0dc76ffe05711e667c0?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=06c42b3c6357f539 [8] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/df315d52bf0b1d7387cef78766012f742e8a6642?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=c3967f238393d77c [9] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/293b35354380ac1970c6a01c39adb66144564dbf?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=733dc831fc029701 [10] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/4b39d310624bc3f043f6541c22bd38f7ae43620b?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&userId=1613865&signature=4568169f724351ec [11] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/1a3c4c9b301c7d3a44855867469231a53c1de036?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=8d57f550c03f31fc [12] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/55a1c3702348098b72ae7057204e6fe1c0ee44ad?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=81fe3e4f78a351f9 [13] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 11:53:53 2020 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 09:53:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: <5FF0C645-A9A3-4A30-8F89-48C1D9FCEB09@swnl.net> References: <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> <32026157-40F8-4E77-A590-96624B18E9BA@gmail.com> <98326a24-8590-a2f2-df81-83c07c79660a@solarray.com> <5FF0C645-A9A3-4A30-8F89-48C1D9FCEB09@swnl.net> Message-ID: Since I only work with off-grid systems, I find the 690.12 exception starting in NEC 2017 for ground-mounted systems with DC equipment in a separate structure intended only for PV components, is very useful for avoiding expensive, unneeded RSS equipment. Many folks don't like the idea of a battery bank and buzzing equipment and fans in their dwelling anyway, so the "power shed" idea works well, and around here structures 120 square feet and under don't need building permits. I did see one system pass with 3 PV modules on the roof of the power shed, though technically that's not part of the 690.12 exception. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Thu Apr 30 12:17:46 2020 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 12:17:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name that Racking Message-ID: Hi All, Does anyone know what kind of racking is shown in the attached photos? I just need to get a few midclamps to add a couple modules, but have not seen it before. Thanks! -Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: P1190161 sm.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 406659 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: P1190160 sm.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 243134 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Apr 30 12:20:28 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 12:20:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name that Racking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Snap n rac series 200 > On Apr 30, 2020, at 12:17 PM, Dave Tedeyan > wrote: > > Hi All, > Does anyone know what kind of racking is shown in the attached photos? > I just need to get a few midclamps to add a couple modules, but have not seen it before. > Thanks! > -Dave > > Dave Tedeyan, PE > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Thu Apr 30 12:21:37 2020 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 12:21:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: References: <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> <32026157-40F8-4E77-A590-96624B18E9BA@gmail.com> <98326a24-8590-a2f2-df81-83c07c79660a@solarray.com> <5FF0C645-A9A3-4A30-8F89-48C1D9FCEB09@swnl.net> Message-ID: I was told at a training a couple years ago that there were going to be some modules coming out soon that had a microchip in the module junction box which would replace the diodes and effectively work as MLPE. I have not heard anything about that recently though. Does anyone know what I am talking about? It seems that this would solve many of the issues associated with MLPE, but still be able to have the benefits. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 11:54 AM Dan Fink wrote: > Since I only work with off-grid systems, I find the 690.12 exception > starting in NEC 2017 for ground-mounted systems with DC equipment in a > separate structure intended only for PV components, is very useful for > avoiding expensive, unneeded RSS equipment. Many folks don't like the idea > of a battery bank and buzzing equipment and fans in their dwelling anyway, > so the "power shed" idea works well, and around here structures 120 square > feet and under don't need building permits. I did see one system pass with > 3 PV modules on the roof of the power shed, though technically that's not > part of the 690.12 exception. > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Thu Apr 30 13:28:13 2020 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 17:28:13 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: References: <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> <32026157-40F8-4E77-A590-96624B18E9BA@gmail.com> <98326a24-8590-a2f2-df81-83c07c79660a@solarray.com> <5FF0C645-A9A3-4A30-8F89-48C1D9FCEB09@swnl.net> Message-ID: Dave – you may be referring to a product from Maxim Integrated to replace bypass diodes. I have not heard much recently about this, but it did sounds promising. And related to MLPE continuing to be required due to 2017 NEC 690.12, I believe UL 3741 will be published within a few months. This will allow products (likely racking and certain module types) to be listed as a PV Hazard Control Array. That listing will satisfy the Inside the Array Requirement 690.12 B(2)(1), thus avoiding the 80V limit of 690.12 B(2)(2). I assume racking manufacturers will go after this listing (and pay the cost) as they can sell for a good markup as they can justify how much cost they will save by not requiring MLPE devices. Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en.html SMA America Solar Academy webinars: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en/courses.html Choose "United States" [SMA-POWERPLUS_EmailBanner-200910] [Linkedin Logo] [cid:image003.jpg at 01D61EE2.00170880] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] Follow, Like, Share This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2020 10:22 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance I was told at a training a couple years ago that there were going to be some modules coming out soon that had a microchip in the module junction box which would replace the diodes and effectively work as MLPE. I have not heard anything about that recently though. Does anyone know what I am talking about? It seems that this would solve many of the issues associated with MLPE, but still be able to have the benefits. Cheers, Dave Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC [https://www.taitem.com/signatures/logo.png] 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 11:54 AM Dan Fink > wrote: Since I only work with off-grid systems, I find the 690.12 exception starting in NEC 2017 for ground-mounted systems with DC equipment in a separate structure intended only for PV components, is very useful for avoiding expensive, unneeded RSS equipment. Many folks don't like the idea of a battery bank and buzzing equipment and fans in their dwelling anyway, so the "power shed" idea works well, and around here structures 120 square feet and under don't need building permits. I did see one system pass with 3 PV modules on the roof of the power shed, though technically that's not part of the 690.12 exception. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers danbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 110580 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 731 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 480 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 808 bytes Desc: image004.png URL: From findsolar at herzfeld.org Thu Apr 30 16:53:20 2020 From: findsolar at herzfeld.org (Martin Herzfeld) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 13:53:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: <32026157-40F8-4E77-A590-96624B18E9BA@gmail.com> References: <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> <32026157-40F8-4E77-A590-96624B18E9BA@gmail.com> Message-ID: 1. I use a MLPE residential ground-mounted solution - rapid shutdown or not. w/Accessible MLPE. 2. There is a maximum physical string length for me to keep in mind, for instance, found here: "In the context of this document, string length refers to the number of optimizers and modules in the string. When designing the installation make sure to maintain the maximum physical string length as well: The total cable length of the string (excluding power optimizers’ conductors) should not exceed 1000ft./300m from DC+ to DC- of the inverter (2,300ft./700m when using the SE14.4KUS, SE30KUS,SE33.3KUS, SE43.2KUS, SE66.6KUS and SE100KUS inverters)" https://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/string_sizing_na.pdf All the best, Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037 Contract Training Provider (CTP) Adjunct Professor, Energy California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, D56, D31, C-7 Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors (IAEI) #7035507 - Since 2006 * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training Provider On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 8:17 AM Jay wrote: > Hi Drake > > I will disagree, there have been many roof top fires. > > But regardless we have to do these new regulations and I for one welcome > the safety. > > The main issue is accessing the faulty/suspect component under the module > possibly requiring removing multiple modules, a slow and expensive process. > > My technique is to install the MLPE at the edges of the array, using wire > extensions. That way at most I have to remove a single module. And Im > working on a drop bracket which would allow better cooling and easier > access without module removal to the MLPE, greatly reducing time to swap. > > Jay > > Peltz Power. > > > > > > On Apr 29, 2020, at 7:59 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > >  > > Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and reduces reliability. Given the > excellent safety record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being required, it > is unnecessary. The few anecdotal incidents of PV fires were not enough to > justify the requirement, especially on smaller systems. > > According to a friend who worked for a local installation company that > went under, a big part of the reason for their failure was the chronic > replacement of microinverters and optimizers. > > What steps can be taken to create some balance in the rapid shutdown > requirements that are in the NEC? > > > --- > > > > On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: > > So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It's added a lot of cost for > no measurable benefit. > Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it impossible > to test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door to tons of problems > when commissioning systems. > Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's product and have had an absurd > failure rate. Which means lots of truck rolls and troubleshooting and > system downtime. They send replacement product but they aren't paying for > the lost weeks of productivity. > We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding which project to try it on. > But our big concern about using it is not only the inability to confirm > open circuit voltage of the strings but also the way panels bypass if the > device doesn't allow the panel to connect properly. Both of these features > are a recipe for problems and potential troubleshooting nightmares. The > warranty from Tigo doesn't cover our expense if the product fails. And > that's really what our reservations about the product boil down to right > now. If we're on a job with 50 units and one fails, the contractor or the > homeowner will be the ones eating the expense of finding it and replacing > it. There has to be a better option. > > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > > On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > > Now that 690.12 of the *NEC* 2017 has been in effect for several years, I > am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated > requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering > microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS > principle, and as best I can determine the *Tigo* TS4-F device is one of > the simplest options currently available on the market. What are others > finding? > > I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown. > Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Fri May 1 14:00:17 2020 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 12:00:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for an older Kyocera module, KC175GT Message-ID: <005901d61fe2$5f8797c0$1e96c740$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: A fellow in Las Vegas is looking for one, for a client of his: KC175GT. Does anyone happen to have one? Please contact me off list if you do. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-4309 fax -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Sun May 3 21:32:38 2020 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 21:32:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Skybox Message-ID: Hi All, Does anyone have experience using Outback's Skybox inverter? I have someone interested and am curious to hear if people have had luck with them and if they are reliable. Also, I've been seeing promo material for Fronius' Gen 24 Plus inverter, which looks like it fills the same niche. Are those even available for purchase yet? If so, does anyone have experience with these? Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun May 3 21:46:09 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 18:46:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Skybox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave I have used the radian and started using the skybox, it works well and is as simple as it gets to install. My personal experience with fronius is not good with there grid tie units. Outback has been around in the off grid environment and is my go to, but hey that's just me Jerry On Sun, May 3, 2020, 6:32 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi All, > > Does anyone have experience using Outback's Skybox inverter? I have > someone interested and am curious to hear if people have had luck with them > and if they are reliable. > > Also, I've been seeing promo material for Fronius' Gen 24 Plus inverter, > which looks like it fills the same niche. Are those even available for > purchase yet? If so, does anyone have experience with these? > > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun May 3 22:39:08 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 19:39:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Skybox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI Dave, The reason I’ve not used it, is that is has no surge. You might also look at the Sol Ark Jay Peltz Power > On May 3, 2020, at 6:32 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Hi All, > > Does anyone have experience using Outback's Skybox inverter? I have someone interested and am curious to hear if people have had luck with them and if they are reliable. > > Also, I've been seeing promo material for Fronius' Gen 24 Plus inverter, which looks like it fills the same niche. Are those even available for purchase yet? If so, does anyone have experience with these? > > Cheers, > Dave > > Dave Tedeyan, PE > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Mon May 4 14:36:05 2020 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 14:36:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Skybox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I second Jay's suggestion to look at the SolArk. The 8kW has no battery disconnect, but the 12 kW has one, if you're using non-lithium based batteries. Daryl Penobscot Solar Design > HI Dave, > > The reason I’ve not used it, is that is has no surge. > > You might also look at the Sol Ark > > Jay > Peltz Power > >> On May 3, 2020, at 6:32 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> Does anyone have experience using Outback's Skybox inverter? I have >> someone interested and am curious to hear if people have had luck with >> them and if they are reliable. >> >> Also, I've been seeing promo material for Fronius' Gen 24 Plus inverter, >> which looks like it fills the same niche. Are those even available for >> purchase yet? If so, does anyone have experience with these? >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> Dave Tedeyan, PE >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com >> >> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design >> Certified B-Corporation since 2013 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From don at energysolarnow.com Mon May 4 19:54:35 2020 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don at energysolarnow.com) Date: Mon, 04 May 2020 16:54:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name that Racking Message-ID: <20200504165435.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.c89f0b744d.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Mon May 4 20:04:12 2020 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don at energysolarnow.com) Date: Mon, 04 May 2020 17:04:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance Message-ID: <20200504170412.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.cc44ff6199.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Mon May 4 20:24:18 2020 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don at energysolarnow.com) Date: Mon, 04 May 2020 17:24:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Skybox Message-ID: <20200504172418.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.167f871308.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon May 4 21:06:45 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 18:06:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name that Racking In-Reply-To: <20200504165435.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.c89f0b744d.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> References: <20200504165435.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.c89f0b744d.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <08605c04f94a421ca796bcb3db038581@mail.gmail.com> Friends: It is my understanding the Snap-N-Rack 200 series is *not* discontinued. I heard that directly from one of their engineers a couple months ago. I ordered some today so I hope it is still out there. What is discontinued is the 100 Series. It is replaced with the Ultra series. All of the aforementioned hardware lines use the same module, bonding and MLPE hardware. Wm *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *don at energysolarnow.com *Sent:* Monday, May 4, 2020 4:55 PM *To:* Dave Tedeyan *Cc:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Name that Racking Yes that's SnapNRac ground mount rail, now discontinued. The sliding nuts are compatible with ProSolar, but be aware that SnapNRac midclamps are 1/2" wide vs. ProSolar at 5/8" wide, so you will have to use them in pairs to get the modules to line up. DonB Energy Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon May 4 22:12:32 2020 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 04 May 2020 22:12:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name that Racking Message-ID: We use it on almost all our resi ground mounts. We have not heard about it being discontinued either...-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: William MillerDate: Mon, May 4, 2020 10:06 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Dave Tedeyan;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Name that RackingFriends: It is my understanding the Snap-N-Rack 200 series is not discontinued.  I heard that directly from one of their engineers a couple months ago.  I ordered some today so I hope it is still out there. What is discontinued is the 100 Series.  It is replaced with the Ultra series.    All of the aforementioned hardware lines use the same module, bonding and MLPE hardware. Wm  From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of don at energysolarnow.comSent: Monday, May 4, 2020 4:55 PMTo: Dave TedeyanCc: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgSubject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Name that Racking Yes that's SnapNRac ground mount rail, now discontinued. The sliding nuts are compatible with ProSolar, but be aware that SnapNRac midclamps are 1/2" wide vs. ProSolar at 5/8" wide, so you will have to use them in pairs to get the modules to line up. DonBEnergy Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Tue May 5 08:35:51 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 08:35:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: <20200504170412.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.cc44ff6199.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> References: <20200504170412.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.cc44ff6199.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <7273560E-F55B-4007-824E-FD6BB740ABEB@swnl.net> How about a SPDT switch, all one is doing is supplying AC voltage from the utility, (powering the MLPE box's Ac to Dc converter) their utility or SSP from the SB’s utility. > On May 4, 2020, at 8:04 PM, wrote: > > Many customers ask about keeping power alive when the grid is down. Besides battery backup, I advocate the Secure Power feature of SunnyBoy inverters. > But the problem with MLPE is that it is incompatible with Secure Power. When the grid goes down the MLPE disconnect each solar module's DC feed. So when the Secure Power activation switch is thrown there is no DC to power it up, even if the Secure Power output is fed to the MLPE power feedin. > So I have only been able to install SunnyBoy Secure Power on existing systems without Rapid Shutdown MLPE. > > Does anyone have a work around for this, short of installing a separate small battery backed inverter to keep the MLPE alive? > > Don Barch > Energy Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Tue May 5 10:26:09 2020 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 07:26:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name that Racking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can confirm that the SnapNrack series 200 ground mount is alive and well. The series 100 roof mount has been replaced by the UltraRail product. Brad Bassett AEE Solar (which is part of the same company as SnapNrack) On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 7:12 PM Glenn Burt wrote: > We use it on almost all our resi ground mounts. We have not heard about it > being discontinued either... > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *William Miller > *Date: *Mon, May 4, 2020 10:06 PM > *To: *RE-wrenches;Dave Tedeyan; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Name that Racking > > Friends: > > > > It is my understanding the Snap-N-Rack 200 series is *not* discontinued. > I heard that directly from one of their engineers a couple months ago. I > ordered some today so I hope it is still out there. > > > > What is discontinued is the 100 Series. It is replaced with the Ultra > series. > > > > All of the aforementioned hardware lines use the same module, bonding and > MLPE hardware. > > > > Wm > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *don at energysolarnow.com > *Sent:* Monday, May 4, 2020 4:55 PM > *To:* Dave Tedeyan > *Cc:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Name that Racking > > > > Yes that's SnapNRac ground mount rail, now discontinued. > > The sliding nuts are compatible with ProSolar, but be aware that SnapNRac > midclamps are 1/2" wide vs. ProSolar at 5/8" wide, so you will have to use > them in pairs to get the modules to line up. > > DonB > > Energy Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Tue May 5 10:50:50 2020 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 08:50:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name that Racking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I just need to get a few midclamps to add a couple modules, but have not seen it before. Howdy Dave, Your inquiry was specific to mid-clamps that will work with the rail specified in your photo. The conversation derailed a little bit regarding SnapNrack Series 200 but I think the point has been made clear that Series is still available. Regardless, all of SnapNrack's rail product lines use the same mid-clamps (Series 100, Ultrarail, and Series 200) so you'll be able to acquire those easily. They come in sizes specific to module thickness and "color" (e.g. black or raw aluminum). Bonding Mid Clamp, 1.20” - 1.48”, Black 242-02053 Bonding Mid Clamp, 1.20” - 1.48”, Clear 242-02050 Bonding Mid Clamp, 1.31” - 1.77”, Black 242-02054 Bonding Mid Clamp, 1.31” - 1.77”, Clear 242-02051 Bonding Mid Clamp, 1.50” - 2.00”, Black 242-02055 Bonding Mid Clamp, 1.50” - 2.00”, Clear 242-02052 Bonding Mid Clamp, 1.95" - 2.23", Black 242-02057 Bonding Mid Clamp, 1.95" - 2.23", Clear 242-02056 There is also a universal end-clamp. Universal End Clamp, Clear 242-0221 Sincerely Sam Haraldson Installation & Service Manager -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Tue May 5 14:26:31 2020 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 11:26:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: <20200504170412.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.cc44ff6199.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> References: <20200504170412.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.cc44ff6199.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: We are running into the same problem with battery back-up, grid-tie systems. Many Rapid Shutdown solutions turn off the array when utility power is off, which isn't desirable. We have one client with an underground service and the local AHJ wants the RS initiating device near the meter (as our Canadian EC requires) which is hundreds of feet away. In this circumstance but without back-up, we would usually just use an AC disconnect near the meter to initiate RS, but now we're facing the prospect of running a new control circuit all the way back to the pole or requesting a variance. Eric Smiley, P.Eng. Project Manager, North Island E: eric at vecoop.ca T: 1-888-386-0116 ext 702 (toll free) C: 250-703-6004 W: viridianenergy.ca RENEWABLE POWER NOW On Mon, 4 May 2020 at 17:04, wrote: > Many customers ask about keeping power alive when the grid is down. > Besides battery backup, I advocate the Secure Power feature of SunnyBoy > inverters. > But the problem with MLPE is that it is incompatible with Secure Power. > When the grid goes down the MLPE disconnect each solar module's DC feed. So > when the Secure Power activation switch is thrown there is no DC to power > it up, even if the Secure Power output is fed to the MLPE power feedin. > So I have only been able to install SunnyBoy Secure Power on existing > systems without Rapid Shutdown MLPE. > > Does anyone have a work around for this, short of installing a separate > small battery backed inverter to keep the MLPE alive? > > Don Barch > Energy Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue May 5 16:27:39 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 13:27:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solis inverters Message-ID: <8C233BC2-9C42-4754-B243-79FA642CB55A@gmail.com> Hi all, Are there any comments about Solis inverters? Specifically the 10kw single phase? GINLONG, SOLIS-1P10K-4G-US-SA2-NE, Thanks Jay Peltz power. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Tue May 5 18:49:22 2020 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don at energysolarnow.com) Date: Tue, 05 May 2020 15:49:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance Secure Power Message-ID: <20200505154922.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.6c61ef389f.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkatz at backwoodssolar.com Wed May 6 10:36:01 2020 From: dkatz at backwoodssolar.com (David Katz) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 07:36:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solis inverters In-Reply-To: <8C233BC2-9C42-4754-B243-79FA642CB55A@gmail.com> References: <8C233BC2-9C42-4754-B243-79FA642CB55A@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have used 4 of the 3.6 kw and 4 kw units. They have all worked flawlessly. They have been well vetted by Sunrun. David On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 1:27 PM Jay wrote: > Hi all, > > Are there any comments about Solis inverters? > > Specifically the 10kw single phase? > > GINLONG, SOLIS-1P10K-4G-US-SA2-NE, > > Thanks > > Jay > > Peltz power. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jtrox23 at gmail.com Wed May 6 16:41:09 2020 From: jtrox23 at gmail.com (J Troxell) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 16:41:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC couple - off grid and rapid Shutdown Message-ID: > > I’ve been tasked with updating an old FLA off-grid facility. I put one of those SMAPEEs in a sub panel last summer(see attached). We were surprised to see the calculated monthly consumption rate of ~1 MWh and that does not include the well pump and mechanical room. There is currently; 4 MS4448-paw, 4 sets of the HUP batteries, and 6kW of ground mount PV, with two FM80’s and one FM60. The generator at the pump house mechanical building runs a lot. We will need to put PV on the roof of two buildings to get a production rate anywhere close to the consumption rate. So now we need rapid Shutdown. A simplified break down of a new system is, does it make sense? SI6048 x 2 120/24 32kWh of Blue Ion Lithium SB7.7 x2 ~12kW of PV Hopefully this BOS can be duplicated and AC coupled. One in the pump house and one in the main building. Any wrenches out there work on something similar? Any words of advice? Jeremy Troxell Insource Renewables Pittsfield - Maine > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems (Chris Sparadeo) > 2. Re: Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems > (Jason Fisher (STC)) > 3. Re: Recycling of LI vs Pb (Kirpal) > 4. Re: Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems > (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) > 5. Re: Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems (Darryl Thayer) > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Chris Sparadeo > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 19:00:19 -0400 > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems > For AC coupled battery based systems it’s a pretty easy solution. Any run > of the mill module level RSD compliant grid tied inverter system can work. > Obviously, there are major advantages to DC coupling and this is were it > gets tricky. Outback has a nice string level RSD option with the ICS, but I > haven’t found a comparable solution for other products. This seems like a > great opportunity for a company like MidNite to create a solution. > > On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 6:59 PM Chris Sparadeo > wrote: > >> For AC coupled battery based systems it’s a pretty easy solution. Any run >> of the mill module level RSD compliant grid tied inverter system can work. >> Obviously, there are major advantages to DC coupling and this is were it >> gets tricky. Outback has a nice string level RSD option with the ICS, but I >> haven’t found a comparable solution for other products. This seems like a >> great opportunity for a company like MidNite to create a solution. >> >> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 6:21 PM Glenn Burt wrote: >> >>> The difference in topologies is that when the Tigo devices are used with >>> an inverter driving the control is that it is relying on the Sunspec >>> Alliance standard to be implemented correctly between the inverter >>> manufacturer and Tigo. >>> When using the Tigo devices at the modules and the Togo RSS box for >>> control, the inverter is not involved and it removes a layer of possible >>> incompatibility and finger pointing if things go sideways. >>> >>> We have been told of such hiccups by our distributor, and they are >>> pushing the IMO Fire raptor solution. Unfortunately they sell the SMA >>> branded Tigo devices so have no feedback on their use with the RSS >>> controller, only with the SMA inverter control of the rooftop devices. >>> I have attended a couple of Tigo trainings, and the all Togo option >>> looks straightforward. We have quoted their use a couple of times now, but >>> have not yet done an install. >>> >>> -Glenn >>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >>> >>> ------ Original message------ >>> *From: *Jerry Shafer >>> *Date: *Fri, Sep 27, 2019 1:40 PM >>> *To: *RE-wrenches; >>> *Cc: * >>> *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems >>> >>> Wrenches >>> Yes l am looking at the Tigo, they work with SMA and outback, >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019, 10:24 AM Lorenzo Ortiz >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Wrenches, >>>> >>>> Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid >>>> shutdown for off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at >>>> least in my area) and I haven't found any reliable, proven, >>>> *cost-effective* products yet. >>>> I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot >>>> about it. >>>> >>>> Any input is appreciated. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Loren Ortiz >>>> Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid >>>> >>>> loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com >>>> >>>> *Main: 530-274-3671 <530-274-3671> ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518 >>>> <530-274-7518>* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> < /div> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -- >> >> *Chris Sparadeo* >> >> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 042919-015652* >> >> Catamount Solar, LLC >> >> 4 Randolph Ave., Randolph, VT 05060 >> >> C_(802) 369-4458 >> >> O_(802) 728-3600 >> >> www.CatamountSolar.com >> >> >> >> -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Jason Fisher (STC)" > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2019 01:56:56 +0000 > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems > Just a reminder to everyone struggling with this issue that only > building-attached circuits energized by PV sources require RSD. So ground > mounts generally don’t, or at least would only require a disconnect at the > building if sending dc circuits into buildings. > > Energy Storage is covered under article 706 in 2017 and does not require > any shutdown, just sensible disconnection requirements. > > Jason Fisher > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Chris Sparadeo > *Sent:* Friday, September 27, 2019 5:00 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems > > For AC coupled battery based systems it’s a pretty easy solution. Any run > of the mill module level RSD compliant grid tied inverter system can work. > Obviously, there are major advantages to DC coupling and this is were it > gets tricky. Outback has a nice string level RSD option with the ICS, but I > haven’t found a comparable solution for other products. This seems like a > great opportunity for a company like MidNite to create a solution. > > On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 6:59 PM Chris Sparadeo > wrote: > >> For AC coupled battery based systems it’s a pretty easy solution. Any run >> of the mill module level RSD compliant grid tied inverter system can work. >> Obviously, there are major advantages to DC coupling and this is were it >> gets tricky. Outback has a nice string level RSD option with the ICS, but I >> haven’t found a comparable solution for other products. This seems like a >> great opportunity for a company like MidNite to create a solution. >> >> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 6:21 PM Glenn Burt wrote: >> >>> The difference in topologies is that when the Tigo devices are used with >>> an inverter driving the control is that it is relying on the Sunspec >>> Alliance standard to be implemented correctly between the inverter >>> manufacturer and Tigo. >>> When using the Tigo devices at the modules and the Togo RSS box for >>> control, the inverter is not involved and it removes a layer of possible >>> incompatibility and finger pointing if things go sideways. >>> >>> We have been told of such hiccups by our distributor, and they are >>> pushing the IMO Fire raptor solution. Unfortunately they sell the SMA >>> branded Tigo devices so have no feedback on their use with the RSS >>> controller, only with the SMA inverter control of the rooftop devices. >>> I have attended a couple of Tigo trainings, and the all Togo option >>> looks straightforward. We have quoted their use a couple of times now, but >>> have not yet done an install. >>> >>> -Glenn >>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >>> >>> ------ Original message------ >>> *From: *Jerry Shafer >>> *Date: *Fri, Sep 27, 2019 1:40 PM >>> *To: *RE-wrenches; >>> *Cc: * >>> *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems >>> >>> Wrenches >>> Yes l am looking at the Tigo, they work with SMA and outback, >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019, 10:24 AM Lorenzo Ortiz >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Wrenches, >>>> >>>> Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid >>>> shutdown for off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at >>>> least in my area) and I haven't found any reliable, proven, >>>> *cost-effective* products yet. >>>> I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot >>>> about it. >>>> >>>> Any input is appreciated. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Loren Ortiz >>>> Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid >>>> >>>> loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com >>>> >>>> *Main: 530-274-3671 <530-274-3671> ext: 311 **Fax: 530-274-7518 >>>> <530-274-7518>* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> < /div> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -- >> >> *Chris Sparadeo* >> >> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 042919-015652* >> >> Catamount Solar, LLC >> >> 4 Randolph Ave., Randolph, VT 05060 >> >> C_(802) 369-4458 >> >> O_(802) 728-3600 >> >> www.CatamountSolar.com >> >> >> >> -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Kirpal > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 20:14:14 -0700 > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Recycling of LI vs Pb > Hi Jay....There are numerous articles. Here are a few....I havn't > researched much more than these articles...But it looks like > interesting...Not really sure if they are up to full speed yet.... > > > https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1122631_tesla-launches-battery-recycling-at-nevada-gigafactory > https://electrek.co/2019/04/16/tesla-battery-recycling-system/ > > https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/07/yes-tesla-recycles-all-of-its-spent-batteries-wants-to-do-more-in-the-future/ > > This one I found the most interesting: > > https://medium.com/tradr/teslas-approach-to-recycling-is-the-way-of-the-future-for-sustainable-production-5af99b62aa0e > Cheers > > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 > > > On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 1:27 PM Jay wrote: > >> Hi Kirpal, >> >> Do you know of any information about this recycling at Tesla? >> Links, etc >> >> Thx >> Jay >> >> On Sep 27, 2019, at 7:49 AM, Kirpal wrote: >> >>  >> Hi Mark. Great question! This is an important consideration. Tesla has >> a recycling facility at their Nevada plant for their batteries. Curious >> how other LFP manufacturers recommend end of life handling. >> Speaking of waste, As you all are installing systems of all varieties, >> what are you finding with regard to non sustainable packaging in all your >> "clean" energy materials. I am troubled that after many of our installs we >> have a pile of plastic and styrofoam as big as the the balance of system >> installation. Sometimes bigger. It drives me crazy to have this blight on >> our installation. I am often embarrassed when the customer points out this >> dichotomy of the installation. Which manufacturers are you happiest with >> in regards to environmentally friendly packaging materials for inverters, >> other balance of system, and batteries (probably LFePho4)? Collectively >> we should have the ability to pressure them to use more sustainable >> packaging. >> I have seen some improvements and some half way implemented changes, but >> a lot more can be done to improve this aspect of our industry. All of us >> can help....Together we have a big voice. >> >> Sunny Regards, >> Kirpal Khalsa >> Oregon LRT#25 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> www.oregonsolarworks.com >> 541-299-0402 >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 7:34 AM Mark Frye >> wrote: >> >>> Folks, >>> >>> Has anyone done a good review of the current state of affairs re: >>> recycling Li batteries? >>> >>> I am a bit in the past with a starry-eyed view of Pb with HUP, in >>> particular, believing that Pb batteries have almost a closed cycle >>> product life, ie, we already have infrastructure to recycle something >>> like 95% of the material in Pb batteries. >>> >>> Taking a step back, has our industry become just as jaded by our shiny >>> new technology as every other sector of our economy, focusing on >>> impressive new short term outcomes that are not really embedded within >>> the frame work of a sustainable future? >>> >>> This is why I ask about the recyclablility / sustainability of Li >>> batteries? Some what agnostic here but wondering what the thinking >>> around this is? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Mark Frye >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2019 08:58:48 -0700 > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems > > Just another reminder that one should most always do what the AHJ or > inspector wants. When they are done you can do what is sensible and very > often safer. We have a new inspector here who is about 24 years old who is > really good. > > Over the years it has been interesting/amusing to watch the learning curve. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sat, 28 Sep 2019 01:56:56 +0000, "Jason Fisher (STC)" < > stc.jason at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Just a reminder to everyone struggling with this issue that only > building-attached circuits energized by PV sources require RSD. So ground > mounts generally don't, or at least would only require a disconnect at the > building if sending dc circuits into buildings. > > Energy Storage is covered under article 706 in 2017 and does not require > any shutdown, just sensible disconnection requirements. > > Jason Fisher > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Chris Sparadeo > *Sent:* Friday, September 27, 2019 5:00 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems > > For AC coupled battery based systems it's a pretty easy solution. Any run > of the mill module level RSD compliant grid tied inverter system can work. > Obviously, there are major advantages to DC coupling and this is were it > gets tricky. Outback has a nice string level RSD option with the ICS, but I > haven't found a comparable solution for other products. This seems like a > great opportunity for a company like MidNite to create a solution. > > On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 6:59 PM Chris Sparadeo > wrote: > >> For AC coupled battery based systems it's a pretty easy solution. Any run >> of the mill module level RSD compliant grid tied inverter system can work. >> Obviously, there are major advantages to DC coupling and this is were it >> gets tricky. Outback has a nice string level RSD option with the ICS, but I >> haven't found a comparable solution for other products. This seems like a >> great opportunity for a company like MidNite to create a solution. >> >> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 6:21 PM Glenn Burt wrote: >> >>> The difference in topologies is that when the Tigo devices are used with >>> an inverter driving the control is that it is relying on the Sunspec >>> Alliance standard to be implemented correctly between the inverter >>> manufacturer and Tigo. >>> When using the Tigo devices at the modules and the Togo RSS box for >>> control, the inverter is not involved and it removes a layer of possible >>> incompatibility and finger pointing if things go sideways. >>> >>> We have been told of such hiccups by our distributor, and they are >>> pushing the IMO Fire raptor solution. Unfortunately they sell the SMA >>> branded Tigo devices so have no feedback on their use with the RSS >>> controller, only with the SMA inverter control of the rooftop devices. >>> I have attended a couple of Tigo trainings, and the all Togo option >>> looks straightforward. We have quoted their use a couple of times now, but >>> have not yet done an install. >>> >>> -Glenn >>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >>> >>> ------ Original message------ >>> *From: *Jerry Shafer >>> *Date: *Fri, Sep 27, 2019 1:40 PM >>> *To: *RE-wrenches; >>> *Cc: * >>> *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems >>> >>> Wrenches >>> Yes l am looking at the Tigo, they work with SMA and outback, >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019, 10:24 AM Lorenzo Ortiz >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Wrenches, >>>> >>>> Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid >>>> shutdown for off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at >>>> least in my area) and I haven't found any reliable, proven, >>>> *cost-effective* products yet. >>>> I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot >>>> about it. >>>> >>>> Any input is appreciated. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Loren Ortiz >>>> Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid >>>> >>>> loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com >>>> >>>> *Main: 530-274-3671 <530-274-3671> ext: 311 **Fax: 530-274-7518 >>>> <530-274-7518>* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> < /div> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> -- >> >> *Chris Sparadeo* >> >> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 042919-015652* >> >> Catamount Solar, LLC >> >> 4 Randolph Ave., Randolph, VT 05060 >> >> C_(802) 369-4458 >> >> O_(802) 728-3600 >> >> www.CatamountSolar.com >> >> >> >> -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > > > -- > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Darryl Thayer > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2019 14:42:35 -0500 > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems > Fire raptor will provide rapid shutdown at module level. Midnight also > has the SOB. FireRaptor requires a control cable two wire, which can be > powered by a 24 volt AC or a DC source. The Midnight SOB uses PLC from an > AC or DC source. Outback uses the FireRaptor the two wire cable daisy > chains and the presence of voltage on the cable closes the series circuit. > I asked after their webinar if a single raptor could open several modules > in series, I was told yes but I do not belive it. Ibelieve it is a single > module device. I was told the two wire cable is isloated for up to 600 > Volts, (maybe they said 1,000 V.) such that I could use one raptor > conrtroller on two strings. > > Code requires shutdown at module level for arc fault also, 690.11, for all > unintended arcs this will mandate module level for parallel arcs, To be > code compliant the charge controller for DC coupled systems, must have arc > fault and a way to connect to the Fire Raptor string > > Perhaps for smaller off grid, go to low voltage where arc fault is not > required. or use a classic CC which has Arc Fault, but I do not know how > to get a shutdown signal from the classic. > > On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 12:24 PM Lorenzo Ortiz > wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid shutdown >> for off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at least in my >> area) and I haven't found any reliable, proven, *cost-effective* >> products yet. >> I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot >> about it. >> >> Any input is appreciated. >> >> Thanks >> >> -- >> >> Loren Ortiz >> Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid >> >> loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com >> >> *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Talk with you soon Jeremy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_3151.jpeg Type: image/jpg Size: 106003 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From findsolar at herzfeld.org Wed May 6 17:22:15 2020 From: findsolar at herzfeld.org (Martin Herzfeld) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 14:22:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: <782ffb653cfa3127d25ade3ea7aba25f@redwoodalliance.org> References: <5ADE39AD-6C89-4B04-986F-BEBB0A8C57D3@ecologicalsystems.biz> <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> <397a4a81b7f6d6c7d49761945fe86e45@redwoodalliance.org> <782ffb653cfa3127d25ade3ea7aba25f@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: There could be an issue of encouraging MLPE for worker safety? 1. This is data involving incidents with workers in the OSHA Fatalities and Catastrophe Investigation Summaries found here: https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=solar&acc_keyword=&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=05&endday=05&endyear=2002&startmonth=05&startday=05&startyear=2021&InspNr= 2. In the past I've observed an arc fault at the module level with traditional string systems without a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter NEC/CEC 690.11. The function in NEC/CEC 690.12 would be - to *reduce the shock hazard *- for *emergency responders* or *firefighters? (NEC 2020).* However, I've observed thermal events in the panelboard with plans and workmanship issues. On the other hand, falls are the #1 reason for incidents in the construction industry. All the best, Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037 Contract Training Provider (CTP) Adjunct Professor, Energy California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, D56, D31, C-7 - Since 2004 Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors #7035507 - Since 2006 * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training Provider On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:29 AM wrote: > > I would like to see real data on the fire risk of string inverters. > Anecdotal problems are not data. > > The industry is definitely heading toward MLPE due to the rapid shutdown > requirements. In many cases MLPE makes sense, in other cases it doesn't. > > Systems that are more cost effective and reliable can often be built by > using string inverters. > --- > > > > > On 2020-04-29 22:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > "Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires." > > Not true. If the effect of RS is to steer the market to MLPE, I believe it > has a significant impact on reducing fire risk. As one who has watched a DC > conductor fire smolder out of control, I am sold on an AC module or > microinverter architecture. While RS on a DC array doesn't necessarily > reduce fire risk within the array, it still has the potential to reduce > severity and spread. Nothing is going to prevent all fires. I get that. > We're talking about risk mitigation when it comes to RS. > > As for "dependable string inverters," the one dependable feature is > failure at least once in the module lifetime, accompanied by a shocking > repair bill. > > I'm not a shiny object following kind of guy, but the writing is on the > wall. MLPE is the future. Modular, serviceable, disposable if you will. > Like it or not, Edison is going to lose this battle to Tesla (Tom vs > Nikola). And I live less than 5 minutes away from Tommy E's winter home in > Fort Myers, FL. And I "grew up" in the industry living off-grid in DC > power. But AC distribution wins for safety at various scales. > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 9:42 PM > wrote: > > Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires; it was originally drafted to allow > firefighters to vent a roof without being hindered by energized PV arrays. > This rule was expanded to include other DC wiring from PV sources. > > As for PV safety, I'd like to see some significant, statistical evidence > that shows there is a major fire danger from PV relative to other sources. > A fire from a solar array gets a lot more press than one from a gas leak, > bad wiring or an ash tray emptied into a wastepaper basket. > > Large public buildings should have all the protection that is available. > Does one size fit all? > > Would it be reasonable to allow residential installations under 12 kW, > with 1/4 of the roof adjacent to the array available for venting, to be > excepted from 690.12? What about sparsely occupied commercial buildings > with ample roof area open for ventilation? > > Many of us have chosen to work with renewable energy technology to lessen > the harms caused by fossil fuel extraction and combustion. The need for > non-carbon based energy sources has become extremely clear. > > The old string inverters still chug along year after year, with little or > no maintenance. Someone must pay for the ongoing maintenance of module > level electronics. Dependable string inverter systems should be allowed > unless statically significant danger can be demonstrated. > > Drake > --- > > > > On 2020-04-29 16:01, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I have been to several PV fires for string inverter systems, both > commercial and residential, and have seen many DC systems at serious risk > of fires or in various stages of melted insulation and connectors. Most of > these systems have exhibited good to excellent workmanship. Things just > went wrong. Some were traceable to animal damage, wind, or other > unmitigated factors, and some were unexplained. I disagree that there isn't > justification for rapid shutdown. > > In my opinion, what we need is some additional innovation and competition > in the MLPE space. Reliability is clearly a key factor, but there is no > denying that MLPE has added safety benefits among other benefits. And if > you do enough volume and set up your business for efficiency > (standardization of product offerings), MLPE isn't much more expensive. It > becomes a negligible cost relative to the benefit. The value proposition is > easy to convey. There are limits to this, but for the majority of > residential and small commercial installations, MLPE has become the de > facto standard around here. String inverters are dinos, and replacing 8-12 > year old transformer based inverters is many times more annoying than some > MLPE swaps. I will admit that the roofs around here are pretty easy to > walk, so that is a factor that might not apply to you. > > If you go under due to manufacturer product failures, you are not writing > your contracts right or not charging enough for service issues beyond your > control. I believe that's a red herring. You might suffer some reputation > damage, but for someone that has been installing MLPE for over a decade, > that is totally manageable. Consumers find a service call to replace MLPE a > LOT more palatable than a surprise inverter replacement that could cost > thousands of dollars. People just don't plan for that. > > Regarding rapid shutdown devices, I have also come across a few that > "someone" has bypassed around here. I don't know if they were never > installed properly or disabled/bypassed due to failure. It seemed > suspicious to me at the time. I remember that it made me wonder what good > is a rapid shutdown device if it is easily defeated? That's another > argument for MLPE. It has pretty failsafe MLPE functionality. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:59 AM > wrote: > > Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and reduces reliability. Given the > excellent safety record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being required, it > is unnecessary. The few anecdotal incidents of PV fires were not enough to > justify the requirement, especially on smaller systems. > > According to a friend who worked for a local installation company that > went under, a big part of the reason for their failure was the chronic > replacement of microinverters and optimizers. > > What steps can be taken to create some balance in the rapid shutdown > requirements that are in the NEC? > > > --- > > > > On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: > > So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It's added a lot of cost for > no measurable benefit. > Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it impossible > to test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door to tons of problems > when commissioning systems. > Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's product and have had an absurd > failure rate. Which means lots of truck rolls and troubleshooting and > system downtime. They send replacement product but they aren't paying for > the lost weeks of productivity. > We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding which project to try it on. > But our big concern about using it is not only the inability to confirm > open circuit voltage of the strings but also the way panels bypass if the > device doesn't allow the panel to connect properly. Both of these features > are a recipe for problems and potential troubleshooting nightmares. The > warranty from Tigo doesn't cover our expense if the product fails. And > that's really what our reservations about the product boil down to right > now. If we're on a job with 50 units and one fails, the contractor or the > homeowner will be the ones eating the expense of finding it and replacing > it. There has to be a better option. > > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > > On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > > Now that 690.12 of the *NEC* 2017 has been in effect for several years, I > am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated > requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering > microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS > principle, and as best I can determine the *Tigo* TS4-F device is one of > the simplest options currently available on the market. What are others > finding? > > I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown. > Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Y > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed May 6 20:41:38 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 06 May 2020 20:41:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: References: <5ADE39AD-6C89-4B04-986F-BEBB0A8C57D3@ecologicalsystems.biz> <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> <397a4a81b7f6d6c7d49761945fe86e45@redwoodalliance.org> <782ffb653cfa3127d25ade3ea7aba25f@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <52a323f56e8f85faa40ffe6276873346@redwoodalliance.org> Interestingly enough, the data on the link [9] provided shows accidents from gas explosions, falls, health problems and industrial injuries. None of these incidents could have been prevented by module level power electronics. This is typical of the data that I've seen so far. --- On 2020-05-06 17:22, Martin Herzfeld wrote: > There could be an issue of encouraging MLPE for worker safety? > > 1. This is data involving incidents with workers in the OSHA Fatalities and Catastrophe Investigation Summaries found here: > https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=solar&acc_keyword=&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=05&endday=05&endyear=2002&startmonth=05&startday=05&startyear=2021&InspNr= > > 2. In the past I've observed an arc fault at the module level with traditional string systems without a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter NEC/CEC 690.11. The function in NEC/CEC 690.12 would be - to reduce the shock hazard - for _emergency responders_ or _firefighters? (NEC 2020)._ However, I've observed thermal events in the panelboard with plans and workmanship issues. > > On the other hand, falls are the #1 reason for incidents in the construction industry. > > All the best, > > Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master Trainer (tm) for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037 > Contract Training Provider (CTP) > Adjunct Professor, Energy > > California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, D56, D31, C-7 - Since 2004 > Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation > > Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections > Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 > OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 > CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG > > * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors #7035507 - Since 2006 > * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training Provider > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:29 AM wrote: > > I would like to see real data on the fire risk of string inverters. Anecdotal problems are not data. > > The industry is definitely heading toward MLPE due to the rapid shutdown requirements. In many cases MLPE makes sense, in other cases it doesn't. > > Systems that are more cost effective and reliable can often be built by using string inverters. > --- > > On 2020-04-29 22:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > "Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires." > > Not true. If the effect of RS is to steer the market to MLPE, I believe it has a significant impact on reducing fire risk. As one who has watched a DC conductor fire smolder out of control, I am sold on an AC module or microinverter architecture. While RS on a DC array doesn't necessarily reduce fire risk within the array, it still has the potential to reduce severity and spread. Nothing is going to prevent all fires. I get that. We're talking about risk mitigation when it comes to RS. > > As for "dependable string inverters," the one dependable feature is failure at least once in the module lifetime, accompanied by a shocking repair bill. > > I'm not a shiny object following kind of guy, but the writing is on the wall. MLPE is the future. Modular, serviceable, disposable if you will. Like it or not, Edison is going to lose this battle to Tesla (Tom vs Nikola). And I live less than 5 minutes away from Tommy E's winter home in Fort Myers, FL. And I "grew up" in the industry living off-grid in DC power. But AC distribution wins for safety at various scales. > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 9:42 PM wrote: > > Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires; it was originally drafted to allow firefighters to vent a roof without being hindered by energized PV arrays. This rule was expanded to include other DC wiring from PV sources. > > As for PV safety, I'd like to see some significant, statistical evidence that shows there is a major fire danger from PV relative to other sources. A fire from a solar array gets a lot more press than one from a gas leak, bad wiring or an ash tray emptied into a wastepaper basket. > > Large public buildings should have all the protection that is available. Does one size fit all? > > Would it be reasonable to allow residential installations under 12 kW, with 1/4 of the roof adjacent to the array available for venting, to be excepted from 690.12? What about sparsely occupied commercial buildings with ample roof area open for ventilation? > > Many of us have chosen to work with renewable energy technology to lessen the harms caused by fossil fuel extraction and combustion. The need for non-carbon based energy sources has become extremely clear. > > The old string inverters still chug along year after year, with little or no maintenance. Someone must pay for the ongoing maintenance of module level electronics. Dependable string inverter systems should be allowed unless statically significant danger can be demonstrated. > > Drake > > --- > > On 2020-04-29 16:01, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I have been to several PV fires for string inverter systems, both commercial and residential, and have seen many DC systems at serious risk of fires or in various stages of melted insulation and connectors. Most of these systems have exhibited good to excellent workmanship. Things just went wrong. Some were traceable to animal damage, wind, or other unmitigated factors, and some were unexplained. I disagree that there isn't justification for rapid shutdown. > > In my opinion, what we need is some additional innovation and competition in the MLPE space. Reliability is clearly a key factor, but there is no denying that MLPE has added safety benefits among other benefits. And if you do enough volume and set up your business for efficiency (standardization of product offerings), MLPE isn't much more expensive. It becomes a negligible cost relative to the benefit. The value proposition is easy to convey. There are limits to this, but for the majority of residential and small commercial installations, MLPE has become the de facto standard around here. String inverters are dinos, and replacing 8-12 year old transformer based inverters is many times more annoying than some MLPE swaps. I will admit that the roofs around here are pretty easy to walk, so that is a factor that might not apply to you. > > If you go under due to manufacturer product failures, you are not writing your contracts right or not charging enough for service issues beyond your control. I believe that's a red herring. You might suffer some reputation damage, but for someone that has been installing MLPE for over a decade, that is totally manageable. Consumers find a service call to replace MLPE a LOT more palatable than a surprise inverter replacement that could cost thousands of dollars. People just don't plan for that. > > Regarding rapid shutdown devices, I have also come across a few that "someone" has bypassed around here. I don't know if they were never installed properly or disabled/bypassed due to failure. It seemed suspicious to me at the time. I remember that it made me wonder what good is a rapid shutdown device if it is easily defeated? That's another argument for MLPE. It has pretty failsafe MLPE functionality. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:59 AM wrote: > > Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and reduces reliability. Given the excellent safety record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being required, it is unnecessary. The few anecdotal incidents of PV fires were not enough to justify the requirement, especially on smaller systems. > > According to a friend who worked for a local installation company that went under, a big part of the reason for their failure was the chronic replacement of microinverters and optimizers. > > What steps can be taken to create some balance in the rapid shutdown requirements that are in the NEC? > > --- > > On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: > > So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It's added a lot of cost for no measurable benefit. > Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it impossible to test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door to tons of problems when commissioning systems. > Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's product and have had an absurd failure rate. Which means lots of truck rolls and troubleshooting and system downtime. They send replacement product but they aren't paying for the lost weeks of productivity. > We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding which project to try it on. But our big concern about using it is not only the inability to confirm open circuit voltage of the strings but also the way panels bypass if the device doesn't allow the panel to connect properly. Both of these features are a recipe for problems and potential troubleshooting nightmares. The warranty from Tigo doesn't cover our expense if the product fails. And that's really what our reservations about the product boil down to right now. If we're on a job with 50 units and one fails, the contractor or the homeowner will be the ones eating the expense of finding it and replacing it. There has to be a better option. > > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > > On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > > Now that 690.12 of the _NEC_ 2017 has been in effect for several years, I am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS principle, and as best I can determine the _Tigo_ TS4-F device is one of the simplest options currently available on the market. What are others finding? > > I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown. Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [1] > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [2] > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [3] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [4] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] > > 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URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed May 6 20:04:25 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 17:04:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC couple - off grid and rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: J If you are planning on using, enlarging or even replacing the ground mount, RSD is not required on a ground mount that is unless your inspector is requiring that. Arc fault is now built into the outback fm100 and AFCI is most likely required. AC Couping works differently with different GT inverters, the new SMA and Outbacks play well together, older inverters dont do frequency shift and it's all or nothing with them. I looking to upgrade a system similar to you site. Contact Blueplanet energy for battery information, been very happy with that product. Going Outback all the way with mine. Jerry On Wed, May 6, 2020, 1:41 PM J Troxell wrote: > I’ve been tasked with updating an old FLA off-grid facility. I put one of > those SMAPEEs in a sub panel last summer(see attached). We were surprised > to see the calculated monthly consumption rate of ~1 MWh and that does not > include the well pump and mechanical room. There is currently; 4 > MS4448-paw, 4 sets of the HUP batteries, and 6kW of ground mount PV, with > two FM80’s and one FM60. > The generator at the pump house mechanical building runs a lot. > > > We will need to put PV on the roof of two buildings to get a production > rate anywhere close to the consumption rate. So now we need rapid Shutdown. > > A simplified break down of a new system is, does it make sense? > > SI6048 x 2 120/24 > 32kWh of Blue Ion Lithium > SB7.7 x2 > ~12kW of PV > > Hopefully this BOS can be duplicated and AC coupled. One in the pump house > and one in the main building. > > Any wrenches out there work on something similar? > > Any words of advice? > > Jeremy Troxell > Insource Renewables > Pittsfield - Maine > > > >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems (Chris Sparadeo) >> 2. Re: Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems >> (Jason Fisher (STC)) >> 3. Re: Recycling of LI vs Pb (Kirpal) >> 4. Re: Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems >> (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) >> 5. Re: Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems (Darryl Thayer) >> >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Chris Sparadeo >> To: RE-wrenches >> Cc: >> Bcc: >> Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 19:00:19 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems >> For AC coupled battery based systems it’s a pretty easy solution. Any run >> of the mill module level RSD compliant grid tied inverter system can work. >> Obviously, there are major advantages to DC coupling and this is were it >> gets tricky. Outback has a nice string level RSD option with the ICS, but I >> haven’t found a comparable solution for other products. This seems like a >> great opportunity for a company like MidNite to create a solution. >> >> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 6:59 PM Chris Sparadeo >> wrote: >> >>> For AC coupled battery based systems it’s a pretty easy solution. Any >>> run of the mill module level RSD compliant grid tied inverter system can >>> work. Obviously, there are major advantages to DC coupling and this is were >>> it gets tricky. Outback has a nice string level RSD option with the ICS, >>> but I haven’t found a comparable solution for other products. This seems >>> like a great opportunity for a company like MidNite to create a solution. >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 6:21 PM Glenn Burt wrote: >>> >>>> The difference in topologies is that when the Tigo devices are used >>>> with an inverter driving the control is that it is relying on the Sunspec >>>> Alliance standard to be implemented correctly between the inverter >>>> manufacturer and Tigo. >>>> When using the Tigo devices at the modules and the Togo RSS box for >>>> control, the inverter is not involved and it removes a layer of possible >>>> incompatibility and finger pointing if things go sideways. >>>> >>>> We have been told of such hiccups by our distributor, and they are >>>> pushing the IMO Fire raptor solution. Unfortunately they sell the SMA >>>> branded Tigo devices so have no feedback on their use with the RSS >>>> controller, only with the SMA inverter control of the rooftop devices. >>>> I have attended a couple of Tigo trainings, and the all Togo option >>>> looks straightforward. We have quoted their use a couple of times now, but >>>> have not yet done an install. >>>> >>>> -Glenn >>>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >>>> >>>> ------ Original message------ >>>> *From: *Jerry Shafer >>>> *Date: *Fri, Sep 27, 2019 1:40 PM >>>> *To: *RE-wrenches; >>>> *Cc: * >>>> *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems >>>> >>>> Wrenches >>>> Yes l am looking at the Tigo, they work with SMA and outback, >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019, 10:24 AM Lorenzo Ortiz >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid >>>>> shutdown for off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at >>>>> least in my area) and I haven't found any reliable, proven, >>>>> *cost-effective* products yet. >>>>> I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot >>>>> about it. >>>>> >>>>> Any input is appreciated. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Loren Ortiz >>>>> Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid >>>>> >>>>> loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com >>>>> >>>>> *Main: 530-274-3671 <530-274-3671> ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518 >>>>> <530-274-7518>* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> < /div> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> -- >>> >>> *Chris Sparadeo* >>> >>> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 042919-015652* >>> >>> Catamount Solar, LLC >>> >>> 4 Randolph Ave., Randolph, VT 05060 >>> >>> C_(802) 369-4458 >>> >>> O_(802) 728-3600 >>> >>> www.CatamountSolar.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> >> C_802-369-4458 >> H_802-728-3059 >> >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: "Jason Fisher (STC)" >> To: RE-wrenches >> Cc: >> Bcc: >> Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2019 01:56:56 +0000 >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems >> Just a reminder to everyone struggling with this issue that only >> building-attached circuits energized by PV sources require RSD. So ground >> mounts generally don’t, or at least would only require a disconnect at the >> building if sending dc circuits into buildings. >> >> Energy Storage is covered under article 706 in 2017 and does not require >> any shutdown, just sensible disconnection requirements. >> >> Jason Fisher >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Chris Sparadeo >> *Sent:* Friday, September 27, 2019 5:00 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems >> >> For AC coupled battery based systems it’s a pretty easy solution. Any run >> of the mill module level RSD compliant grid tied inverter system can work. >> Obviously, there are major advantages to DC coupling and this is were it >> gets tricky. Outback has a nice string level RSD option with the ICS, but I >> haven’t found a comparable solution for other products. This seems like a >> great opportunity for a company like MidNite to create a solution. >> >> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 6:59 PM Chris Sparadeo >> wrote: >> >>> For AC coupled battery based systems it’s a pretty easy solution. Any >>> run of the mill module level RSD compliant grid tied inverter system can >>> work. Obviously, there are major advantages to DC coupling and this is were >>> it gets tricky. Outback has a nice string level RSD option with the ICS, >>> but I haven’t found a comparable solution for other products. This seems >>> like a great opportunity for a company like MidNite to create a solution. >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 6:21 PM Glenn Burt wrote: >>> >>>> The difference in topologies is that when the Tigo devices are used >>>> with an inverter driving the control is that it is relying on the Sunspec >>>> Alliance standard to be implemented correctly between the inverter >>>> manufacturer and Tigo. >>>> When using the Tigo devices at the modules and the Togo RSS box for >>>> control, the inverter is not involved and it removes a layer of possible >>>> incompatibility and finger pointing if things go sideways. >>>> >>>> We have been told of such hiccups by our distributor, and they are >>>> pushing the IMO Fire raptor solution. Unfortunately they sell the SMA >>>> branded Tigo devices so have no feedback on their use with the RSS >>>> controller, only with the SMA inverter control of the rooftop devices. >>>> I have attended a couple of Tigo trainings, and the all Togo option >>>> looks straightforward. We have quoted their use a couple of times now, but >>>> have not yet done an install. >>>> >>>> -Glenn >>>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >>>> >>>> ------ Original message------ >>>> *From: *Jerry Shafer >>>> *Date: *Fri, Sep 27, 2019 1:40 PM >>>> *To: *RE-wrenches; >>>> *Cc: * >>>> *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems >>>> >>>> Wrenches >>>> Yes l am looking at the Tigo, they work with SMA and outback, >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019, 10:24 AM Lorenzo Ortiz >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid >>>>> shutdown for off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at >>>>> least in my area) and I haven't found any reliable, proven, >>>>> *cost-effective* products yet. >>>>> I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot >>>>> about it. >>>>> >>>>> Any input is appreciated. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Loren Ortiz >>>>> Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid >>>>> >>>>> loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com >>>>> >>>>> *Main: 530-274-3671 <530-274-3671> ext: 311 **Fax: 530-274-7518 >>>>> <530-274-7518>* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> < /div> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> -- >>> >>> *Chris Sparadeo* >>> >>> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 042919-015652* >>> >>> Catamount Solar, LLC >>> >>> 4 Randolph Ave., Randolph, VT 05060 >>> >>> C_(802) 369-4458 >>> >>> O_(802) 728-3600 >>> >>> www.CatamountSolar.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> >> C_802-369-4458 >> H_802-728-3059 >> >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Kirpal >> To: RE-wrenches >> Cc: >> Bcc: >> Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 20:14:14 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Recycling of LI vs Pb >> Hi Jay....There are numerous articles. Here are a few....I havn't >> researched much more than these articles...But it looks like >> interesting...Not really sure if they are up to full speed yet.... >> >> >> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1122631_tesla-launches-battery-recycling-at-nevada-gigafactory >> https://electrek.co/2019/04/16/tesla-battery-recycling-system/ >> >> https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/07/yes-tesla-recycles-all-of-its-spent-batteries-wants-to-do-more-in-the-future/ >> >> This one I found the most interesting: >> >> https://medium.com/tradr/teslas-approach-to-recycling-is-the-way-of-the-future-for-sustainable-production-5af99b62aa0e >> Cheers >> >> Kirpal Khalsa >> Oregon LRT#25 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> www.oregonsolarworks.com >> 541-299-0402 >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 1:27 PM Jay wrote: >> >>> Hi Kirpal, >>> >>> Do you know of any information about this recycling at Tesla? >>> Links, etc >>> >>> Thx >>> Jay >>> >>> On Sep 27, 2019, at 7:49 AM, Kirpal wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Hi Mark. Great question! This is an important consideration. Tesla >>> has a recycling facility at their Nevada plant for their batteries. >>> Curious how other LFP manufacturers recommend end of life handling. >>> Speaking of waste, As you all are installing systems of all varieties, >>> what are you finding with regard to non sustainable packaging in all your >>> "clean" energy materials. I am troubled that after many of our installs we >>> have a pile of plastic and styrofoam as big as the the balance of system >>> installation. Sometimes bigger. It drives me crazy to have this blight on >>> our installation. I am often embarrassed when the customer points out this >>> dichotomy of the installation. Which manufacturers are you happiest with >>> in regards to environmentally friendly packaging materials for inverters, >>> other balance of system, and batteries (probably LFePho4)? Collectively >>> we should have the ability to pressure them to use more sustainable >>> packaging. >>> I have seen some improvements and some half way implemented changes, but >>> a lot more can be done to improve this aspect of our industry. All of us >>> can help....Together we have a big voice. >>> >>> Sunny Regards, >>> Kirpal Khalsa >>> Oregon LRT#25 >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> Oregon Solarworks LLC >>> www.oregonsolarworks.com >>> 541-299-0402 >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 7:34 AM Mark Frye >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Folks, >>>> >>>> Has anyone done a good review of the current state of affairs re: >>>> recycling Li batteries? >>>> >>>> I am a bit in the past with a starry-eyed view of Pb with HUP, in >>>> particular, believing that Pb batteries have almost a closed cycle >>>> product life, ie, we already have infrastructure to recycle something >>>> like 95% of the material in Pb batteries. >>>> >>>> Taking a step back, has our industry become just as jaded by our shiny >>>> new technology as every other sector of our economy, focusing on >>>> impressive new short term outcomes that are not really embedded within >>>> the frame work of a sustainable future? >>>> >>>> This is why I ask about the recyclablility / sustainability of Li >>>> batteries? Some what agnostic here but wondering what the thinking >>>> around this is? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Mark Frye >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> To: RE-wrenches >> Cc: >> Bcc: >> Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2019 08:58:48 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems >> >> Just another reminder that one should most always do what the AHJ or >> inspector wants. When they are done you can do what is sensible and very >> often safer. We have a new inspector here who is about 24 years old who is >> really good. >> >> Over the years it has been interesting/amusing to watch the learning >> curve. >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Sat, 28 Sep 2019 01:56:56 +0000, "Jason Fisher (STC)" < >> stc.jason at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> Just a reminder to everyone struggling with this issue that only >> building-attached circuits energized by PV sources require RSD. So ground >> mounts generally don't, or at least would only require a disconnect at the >> building if sending dc circuits into buildings. >> >> Energy Storage is covered under article 706 in 2017 and does not require >> any shutdown, just sensible disconnection requirements. >> >> Jason Fisher >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Chris Sparadeo >> *Sent:* Friday, September 27, 2019 5:00 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems >> >> For AC coupled battery based systems it's a pretty easy solution. Any run >> of the mill module level RSD compliant grid tied inverter system can work. >> Obviously, there are major advantages to DC coupling and this is were it >> gets tricky. Outback has a nice string level RSD option with the ICS, but I >> haven't found a comparable solution for other products. This seems like a >> great opportunity for a company like MidNite to create a solution. >> >> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 6:59 PM Chris Sparadeo >> wrote: >> >>> For AC coupled battery based systems it's a pretty easy solution. Any >>> run of the mill module level RSD compliant grid tied inverter system can >>> work. Obviously, there are major advantages to DC coupling and this is were >>> it gets tricky. Outback has a nice string level RSD option with the ICS, >>> but I haven't found a comparable solution for other products. This seems >>> like a great opportunity for a company like MidNite to create a solution. >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 6:21 PM Glenn Burt wrote: >>> >>>> The difference in topologies is that when the Tigo devices are used >>>> with an inverter driving the control is that it is relying on the Sunspec >>>> Alliance standard to be implemented correctly between the inverter >>>> manufacturer and Tigo. >>>> When using the Tigo devices at the modules and the Togo RSS box for >>>> control, the inverter is not involved and it removes a layer of possible >>>> incompatibility and finger pointing if things go sideways. >>>> >>>> We have been told of such hiccups by our distributor, and they are >>>> pushing the IMO Fire raptor solution. Unfortunately they sell the SMA >>>> branded Tigo devices so have no feedback on their use with the RSS >>>> controller, only with the SMA inverter control of the rooftop devices. >>>> I have attended a couple of Tigo trainings, and the all Togo option >>>> looks straightforward. We have quoted their use a couple of times now, but >>>> have not yet done an install. >>>> >>>> -Glenn >>>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >>>> >>>> ------ Original message------ >>>> *From: *Jerry Shafer >>>> *Date: *Fri, Sep 27, 2019 1:40 PM >>>> *To: *RE-wrenches; >>>> *Cc: * >>>> *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems >>>> >>>> Wrenches >>>> Yes l am looking at the Tigo, they work with SMA and outback, >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019, 10:24 AM Lorenzo Ortiz >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid >>>>> shutdown for off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at >>>>> least in my area) and I haven't found any reliable, proven, >>>>> *cost-effective* products yet. >>>>> I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot >>>>> about it. >>>>> >>>>> Any input is appreciated. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Loren Ortiz >>>>> Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid >>>>> >>>>> loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com >>>>> >>>>> *Main: 530-274-3671 <530-274-3671> ext: 311 **Fax: 530-274-7518 >>>>> <530-274-7518>* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> < /div> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Chris Sparadeo* >>> >>> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 042919-015652* >>> >>> Catamount Solar, LLC >>> >>> 4 Randolph Ave., Randolph, VT 05060 >>> >>> C_(802) 369-4458 >>> >>> O_(802) 728-3600 >>> >>> www.CatamountSolar.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> >> C_802-369-4458 >> H_802-728-3059 >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Darryl Thayer >> To: RE-wrenches >> Cc: >> Bcc: >> Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2019 14:42:35 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems >> Fire raptor will provide rapid shutdown at module level. Midnight also >> has the SOB. FireRaptor requires a control cable two wire, which can be >> powered by a 24 volt AC or a DC source. The Midnight SOB uses PLC from an >> AC or DC source. Outback uses the FireRaptor the two wire cable daisy >> chains and the presence of voltage on the cable closes the series circuit. >> I asked after their webinar if a single raptor could open several modules >> in series, I was told yes but I do not belive it. Ibelieve it is a single >> module device. I was told the two wire cable is isloated for up to 600 >> Volts, (maybe they said 1,000 V.) such that I could use one raptor >> conrtroller on two strings. >> >> Code requires shutdown at module level for arc fault also, 690.11, for >> all unintended arcs this will mandate module level for parallel arcs, To >> be code compliant the charge controller for DC coupled systems, must have >> arc fault and a way to connect to the Fire Raptor string >> >> Perhaps for smaller off grid, go to low voltage where arc fault is not >> required. or use a classic CC which has Arc Fault, but I do not know how >> to get a shutdown signal from the classic. >> >> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 12:24 PM Lorenzo Ortiz >> wrote: >> >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid >>> shutdown for off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at >>> least in my area) and I haven't found any reliable, proven, >>> *cost-effective* products yet. >>> I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot >>> about it. >>> >>> Any input is appreciated. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Loren Ortiz >>> Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid >>> >>> loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com >>> >>> *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > Talk with you soon > Jeremy > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20200215_160115.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2827566 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20200215_160115.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2827566 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Wed May 6 21:30:55 2020 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 21:30:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Skybox In-Reply-To: <20200504172418.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.167f871308.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> References: <20200504172418.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.167f871308.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Is the 5kw limit and no surge capacity for the backed up AC loads only when operating off grid? If you occasionally trip a breaker during the relatively rare times when the grid is out (around here at least) it is not such a big deal. But if you had to deal with that daily, you would have to be way more conservative as to what loads are allowed to be backed up. Also, is there an inverter bypass built into the BOS enclosure, or do you need to wire up a separate one in case of inverter failure. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 8:24 PM wrote: > I'm finding the SkyBox to be reliable hardware, if you don't need big > surge capability. > But the software is still in flux. I have had to reject software updates > that froze the system, going back to the previous version to bring it back > again. > > One issue is that AC coupling does not work with multiple Skyboxen, unlike > with older Radians. > Another huge problem that seems to be software related is that dual > SkyBoxen with different sized solar arrays discharge their battery banks at > different rates. This becomes an issue in multiple day grid outages like we > now expect in north CA fire season. You'd think the SkyBox master-slave > relationship would allow them to coordinate, but this causes the one with a > smaller solar array to run down it's battery sooner, faulting the system > causing a complete shutdown of both SkyBoxen. > OutBack says they are not fixing this, so I'm looking at SolArk for > systems larger than 5 kW. > > Don Barch > Energy Solar > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 124 > From: re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > Date: Mon, May 04, 2020 2:40 pm > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." > > > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the > Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines > from the quoted message. > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Skybox (Dave Tedeyan) > 2. Re: Skybox (Jerry Shafer) > 3. Re: Skybox (jay) > 4. Re: Skybox (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 21:32:38 -0400 > From: Dave Tedeyan > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Skybox > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi All, > > Does anyone have experience using Outback's Skybox inverter? I have someone > interested and am curious to hear if people have had luck with them and if > they are reliable. > > Also, I've been seeing promo material for Fronius' Gen 24 Plus inverter, > which looks like it fills the same niche. Are those even available for > purchase yet? If so, does anyone have experience with these? > > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar ? Sustainability ? Energy ? Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20200503/bd47522b/attachment-0001.html> > ; > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 18:46:09 -0700 > From: Jerry Shafer > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Skybox > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Dave > I have used the radian and started using the skybox, it works well and is > as simple as it gets to install. My personal experience with fronius is not > good with there grid tie units. Outback has been around in the off grid > environment and is my go to, but hey that's just me > Jerry > > On Sun, May 3, 2020, 6:32 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > > Hi All, > > > > Does anyone have experience using Outback's Skybox inverter? I have > > someone interested and am curious to hear if people have had luck with > them > > and if they are reliable. > > > > Also, I've been seeing promo material for Fronius' Gen 24 Plus inverter, > > which looks like it fills the same niche. Are those even available for > > purchase yet? If so, does anyone have experience with these? > > > > Cheers, > > Dave > > > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > > www.taitem.com > > > > Solar ? Sustainability ? Energy ? Design > > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20200503/c637a436/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 19:39:08 -0700 > From: jay > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Skybox > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > HI Dave, > > The reason I?ve not used it, is that is has no surge. > > You might also look at the Sol Ark > > Jay > Peltz Power > > > On May 3, 2020, at 6:32 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > > > Does anyone have experience using Outback's Skybox inverter? I have > someone interested and am curious to hear if people have had luck with them > and if they are reliable. > > > > Also, I've been seeing promo material for Fronius' Gen 24 Plus inverter, > which looks like it fills the same niche. Are those even available for > purchase yet? If so, does anyone have experience with these? > > > > Cheers, > > Dave > > > > Dave Tedeyan, PE > > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > > o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 > > www.taitem.com > > > > Solar ? Sustainability ? Energy ? Design > > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20200503/e1950225/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 14:36:05 -0400 > From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com > To: "RE-wrenches" > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Skybox > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > > I second Jay's suggestion to look at the SolArk. The 8kW has no battery > disconnect, but the 12 kW has one, if you're using non-lithium based > batteries. > > Daryl > Penobscot Solar Design > > > > HI Dave, > > > > The reason I???ve not used it, is that is has no surge. > > > > You might also look at the Sol Ark > > > > Jay > > Peltz Power > > > >> On May 3, 2020, at 6:32 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > >> > >> Hi All, > >> > >> Does anyone have experience using Outback's Skybox inverter? I have > >> someone interested and am curious to hear if people have had luck with > >> them and if they are reliable. > >> > >> Also, I've been seeing promo material for Fronius' Gen 24 Plus inverter, > >> which looks like it fills the same niche. Are those even available for > >> purchase yet? If so, does anyone have experience with these? > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Dave > >> > >> Dave Tedeyan, PE > >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > >> > >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > >> o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 > >> www.taitem.com > >> > >> Solar ??? Sustainability ??? Energy ??? Design > >> Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------ > > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 124 > ******************************************** > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Wed May 6 21:46:53 2020 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don at energysolarnow.com) Date: Wed, 06 May 2020 18:46:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Skybox Message-ID: <20200506184653.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.9d00a177ff.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed May 6 22:17:26 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 19:17:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Skybox In-Reply-To: References: <20200504172418.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.167f871308.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: The skybox under grid tie operation is all pass through, the inverter can be both AC and DC coupled but in back up mode it is limited Jerry On Wed, May 6, 2020, 6:31 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Is the 5kw limit and no surge capacity for the backed up AC loads only > when operating off grid? If you occasionally trip a breaker during the > relatively rare times when the grid is out (around here at least) it is not > such a big deal. But if you had to deal with that daily, you would have to > be way more conservative as to what loads are allowed to be backed up. > > Also, is there an inverter bypass built into the BOS enclosure, or do you > need to wire up a separate one in case of inverter failure. > > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > > On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 8:24 PM wrote: > >> I'm finding the SkyBox to be reliable hardware, if you don't need big >> surge capability. >> But the software is still in flux. I have had to reject software updates >> that froze the system, going back to the previous version to bring it back >> again. >> >> One issue is that AC coupling does not work with multiple Skyboxen, >> unlike with older Radians. >> Another huge problem that seems to be software related is that dual >> SkyBoxen with different sized solar arrays discharge their battery banks at >> different rates. This becomes an issue in multiple day grid outages like we >> now expect in north CA fire season. You'd think the SkyBox master-slave >> relationship would allow them to coordinate, but this causes the one with a >> smaller solar array to run down it's battery sooner, faulting the system >> causing a complete shutdown of both SkyBoxen. >> OutBack says they are not fixing this, so I'm looking at SolArk for >> systems larger than 5 kW. >> >> Don Barch >> Energy Solar >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 124 >> From: re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Date: Mon, May 04, 2020 2:40 pm >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." >> >> >> When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the >> Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines >> from the quoted message. >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Skybox (Dave Tedeyan) >> 2. Re: Skybox (Jerry Shafer) >> 3. Re: Skybox (jay) >> 4. Re: Skybox (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 21:32:38 -0400 >> From: Dave Tedeyan >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Skybox >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Hi All, >> >> Does anyone have experience using Outback's Skybox inverter? I have >> someone >> interested and am curious to hear if people have had luck with them and if >> they are reliable. >> >> Also, I've been seeing promo material for Fronius' Gen 24 Plus inverter, >> which looks like it fills the same niche. Are those even available for >> purchase yet? If so, does anyone have experience with these? >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com >> >> Solar ? Sustainability ? Energy ? Design >> Certified B-Corporation since 2013 >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20200503/bd47522b/attachment-0001.html> >> ; >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 18:46:09 -0700 >> From: Jerry Shafer >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Skybox >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Dave >> I have used the radian and started using the skybox, it works well and is >> as simple as it gets to install. My personal experience with fronius is >> not >> good with there grid tie units. Outback has been around in the off grid >> environment and is my go to, but hey that's just me >> Jerry >> >> On Sun, May 3, 2020, 6:32 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> >> > Hi All, >> > >> > Does anyone have experience using Outback's Skybox inverter? I have >> > someone interested and am curious to hear if people have had luck with >> them >> > and if they are reliable. >> > >> > Also, I've been seeing promo material for Fronius' Gen 24 Plus inverter, >> > which looks like it fills the same niche. Are those even available for >> > purchase yet? If so, does anyone have experience with these? >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Dave >> > >> > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> > >> > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 >> > www.taitem.com >> > >> > Solar ? Sustainability ? Energy ? Design >> > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20200503/c637a436/attachment-0001.html >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 19:39:08 -0700 >> From: jay >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Skybox >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> HI Dave, >> >> The reason I?ve not used it, is that is has no surge. >> >> You might also look at the Sol Ark >> >> Jay >> Peltz Power >> >> > On May 3, 2020, at 6:32 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> > >> > Hi All, >> > >> > Does anyone have experience using Outback's Skybox inverter? I have >> someone interested and am curious to hear if people have had luck with them >> and if they are reliable. >> > >> > Also, I've been seeing promo material for Fronius' Gen 24 Plus >> inverter, which looks like it fills the same niche. Are those even >> available for purchase yet? If so, does anyone have experience with these? >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Dave >> > >> > Dave Tedeyan, PE >> > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> > >> > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> > o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 >> > www.taitem.com >> > >> > Solar ? Sustainability ? Energy ? Design >> > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20200503/e1950225/attachment-0001.html >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 14:36:05 -0400 >> From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com >> To: "RE-wrenches" >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Skybox >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 >> >> I second Jay's suggestion to look at the SolArk. The 8kW has no battery >> disconnect, but the 12 kW has one, if you're using non-lithium based >> batteries. >> >> Daryl >> Penobscot Solar Design >> >> >> > HI Dave, >> > >> > The reason I???ve not used it, is that is has no surge. >> > >> > You might also look at the Sol Ark >> > >> > Jay >> > Peltz Power >> > >> >> On May 3, 2020, at 6:32 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi All, >> >> >> >> Does anyone have experience using Outback's Skybox inverter? I have >> >> someone interested and am curious to hear if people have had luck with >> >> them and if they are reliable. >> >> >> >> Also, I've been seeing promo material for Fronius' Gen 24 Plus >> inverter, >> >> which looks like it fills the same niche. Are those even available for >> >> purchase yet? If so, does anyone have experience with these? >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> Dave Tedeyan, PE >> >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> >> >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> >> o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 >> >> www.taitem.com >> >> >> >> Solar ??? Sustainability ??? Energy ??? Design >> >> Certified B-Corporation since 2013 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: >> >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 124 >> ******************************************** >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed May 6 21:35:44 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 18:35:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Skybox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <64FED724-B79E-4910-8A48-D5EE628A8A2B@gmail.com> 5 kva max, no surge regardless of use. A rather large shortcoming for a battery inverter. I’m guessing they were thinking more of battery sell mode vs powering loads directly, but just a guess. Jay Peltz power > On May 6, 2020, at 6:31 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > >  > Is the 5kw limit and no surge capacity for the backed up AC loads only when operating off grid? If you occasionally trip a breaker during the relatively rare times when the grid is out (around here at least) it is not such a big deal. But if you had to deal with that daily, you would have to be way more conservative as to what loads are allowed to be backed up. > > Also, is there an inverter bypass built into the BOS enclosure, or do you need to wire up a separate one in case of inverter failure. > > Cheers, > Dave > > Dave Tedeyan, PE > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > >> On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 8:24 PM wrote: >> I'm finding the SkyBox to be reliable hardware, if you don't need big surge capability. >> But the software is still in flux. I have had to reject software updates that froze the system, going back to the previous version to bring it back again. >> >> One issue is that AC coupling does not work with multiple Skyboxen, unlike with older Radians. >> Another huge problem that seems to be software related is that dual SkyBoxen with different sized solar arrays discharge their battery banks at different rates. This becomes an issue in multiple day grid outages like we now expect in north CA fire season. You'd think the SkyBox master-slave relationship would allow them to coordinate, but this causes the one with a smaller solar array to run down it's battery sooner, faulting the system causing a complete shutdown of both SkyBoxen. >> OutBack says they are not fixing this, so I'm looking at SolArk for systems larger than 5 kW. >> >> Don Barch >> Energy Solar >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 124 >> From: re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Date: Mon, May 04, 2020 2:40 pm >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." >> >> >> When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Skybox (Dave Tedeyan) >> 2. Re: Skybox (Jerry Shafer) >> 3. Re: Skybox (jay) >> 4. Re: Skybox (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 21:32:38 -0400 >> From: Dave Tedeyan >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Skybox >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Hi All, >> >> Does anyone have experience using Outback's Skybox inverter? I have someone >> interested and am curious to hear if people have had luck with them and if >> they are reliable. >> >> Also, I've been seeing promo material for Fronius' Gen 24 Plus inverter, >> which looks like it fills the same niche. Are those even available for >> purchase yet? If so, does anyone have experience with these? >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com >> >> Solar ? Sustainability ? Energy ? Design >> Certified B-Corporation since 2013 >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: > >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 18:46:09 -0700 >> From: Jerry Shafer >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Skybox >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Dave >> I have used the radian and started using the skybox, it works well and is >> as simple as it gets to install. My personal experience with fronius is not >> good with there grid tie units. Outback has been around in the off grid >> environment and is my go to, but hey that's just me >> Jerry >> >> On Sun, May 3, 2020, 6:32 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> >> > Hi All, >> > >> > Does anyone have experience using Outback's Skybox inverter? I have >> > someone interested and am curious to hear if people have had luck with them >> > and if they are reliable. >> > >> > Also, I've been seeing promo material for Fronius' Gen 24 Plus inverter, >> > which looks like it fills the same niche. Are those even available for >> > purchase yet? If so, does anyone have experience with these? >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Dave >> > >> > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> > >> > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 >> > www.taitem.com >> > >> > Solar ? Sustainability ? Energy ? Design >> > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 19:39:08 -0700 >> From: jay >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Skybox >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> HI Dave, >> >> The reason I?ve not used it, is that is has no surge. >> >> You might also look at the Sol Ark >> >> Jay >> Peltz Power >> >> > On May 3, 2020, at 6:32 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> > >> > Hi All, >> > >> > Does anyone have experience using Outback's Skybox inverter? I have someone interested and am curious to hear if people have had luck with them and if they are reliable. >> > >> > Also, I've been seeing promo material for Fronius' Gen 24 Plus inverter, which looks like it fills the same niche. Are those even available for purchase yet? If so, does anyone have experience with these? >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Dave >> > >> > Dave Tedeyan, PE >> > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> > >> > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> > o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 >> > www.taitem.com >> > >> > Solar ? Sustainability ? Energy ? Design >> > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 14:36:05 -0400 >> From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com >> To: "RE-wrenches" >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Skybox >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 >> >> I second Jay's suggestion to look at the SolArk. The 8kW has no battery >> disconnect, but the 12 kW has one, if you're using non-lithium based >> batteries. >> >> Daryl >> Penobscot Solar Design >> >> >> > HI Dave, >> > >> > The reason I???ve not used it, is that is has no surge. >> > >> > You might also look at the Sol Ark >> > >> > Jay >> > Peltz Power >> > >> >> On May 3, 2020, at 6:32 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi All, >> >> >> >> Does anyone have experience using Outback's Skybox inverter? I have >> >> someone interested and am curious to hear if people have had luck with >> >> them and if they are reliable. >> >> >> >> Also, I've been seeing promo material for Fronius' Gen 24 Plus inverter, >> >> which looks like it fills the same niche. Are those even available for >> >> purchase yet? If so, does anyone have experience with these? >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> Dave Tedeyan, PE >> >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> >> >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> >> o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 >> >> www.taitem.com >> >> >> >> Solar ??? Sustainability ??? Energy ??? Design >> >> Certified B-Corporation since 2013 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 124 >> ******************************************** > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed May 6 22:37:50 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 22:37:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: <52a323f56e8f85faa40ffe6276873346@redwoodalliance.org> References: <5ADE39AD-6C89-4B04-986F-BEBB0A8C57D3@ecologicalsystems.biz> <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> <397a4a81b7f6d6c7d49761945fe86e45@redwoodalliance.org> <782ffb653cfa3127d25ade3ea7aba25f@redwoodalliance.org> <52a323f56e8f85faa40ffe6276873346@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <3f82b821-5bf0-a0a6-1555-4ccfd267e77f@solarray.com> Spending more time on the roof, while putting more equipment and parts to meet MLPE, means more trips up the ladder, which increases, not decreases the #1 worker safety danger: Falls. Please correct me if I have somehow misunderstood this, but MLPE is not making installers safer based on OSHA information provided.   Also after installation, which system is more likely to require workers to return to work on the roof, pulling up modules, trying to find problem equipment?  More connections is More safe?  Really?  I haven't had to climb back up on the roof on any of my older, lower voltage off grid work in almost a decade. Once again, MLPE has its place, (larger systems, multiple subarrays, higher voltage) but we should have sensible exemptions as have been mentioned already.  We are endangering ourselves and our employees needlessly, to comply with 690.12. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/6/20 8:41 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Interestingly enough, the data on the link >  provided > shows accidents from gas explosions, falls, health problems and  > industrial injuries. None of these incidents could have been prevented > by module level power electronics. This is typical of the data that > I've seen so far. > > --- > > > On 2020-05-06 17:22, Martin Herzfeld wrote: > >> There could be an issue of encouraging MLPE for worker safety? >> 1.  This is data involving incidents with workers in the OSHA >> Fatalities and Catastrophe Investigation Summaries found here: >> https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=solar&acc_keyword=&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=05&endday=05&endyear=2002&startmonth=05&startday=05&startyear=2021&InspNr= >> 2.  In the past I've observed an arc fault at the module level with >> traditional string systems without a listed arc-fault circuit >> interrupter NEC/CEC 690.11. The function in NEC/CEC 690.12 would be - >> to _reduce the shock hazard _- for /emergency responders/ or >> /firefighters? (NEC 2020)./  However, I've observed thermal events in >> the panelboard with plans and workmanship issues. >> On the other hand, falls are the #1 reason for incidents in the >> construction industry. >> All the best, >> >> Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified >> Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional >> #IREC 10037 >> Contract Training Provider (CTP) >> Adjunct Professor, Energy >> >> California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782  C46, C10, >> D56, D31, C-7 - Since 2004 >> Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, >> Instrumentation >> >> Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections >> Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 >> OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 >> CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG >> >> * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical >> Inspectors  #7035507 - Since 2006 >> * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy >> Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training Provider >> >> On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:29 AM > > wrote: >> >> >> I would like to see real data on the fire risk of string >> inverters. Anecdotal problems are not data. >> The industry is definitely heading toward MLPE due to the rapid >> shutdown requirements. In many cases MLPE makes sense, in other >> cases it doesn't. >> Systems that are more cost effective and reliable can often be >> built by using string inverters. >> --- >> >> >> On 2020-04-29 22:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> >> "Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires." >> >> Not true. If the effect of RS is to steer the market to MLPE, >> I believe it has a significant impact on reducing fire risk. >> As one who has watched a DC conductor fire smolder out of >> control, I am sold on an AC module or microinverter >> architecture. While RS on a DC array doesn't necessarily >> reduce fire risk within the array, it still has the potential >> to reduce severity and spread. Nothing is going to prevent >> all fires. I get that. We're talking about risk mitigation >> when it comes to RS. >> As for "dependable string inverters," the one dependable >> feature is failure at least once in the module lifetime, >> accompanied by a shocking repair bill. >> I'm not a shiny object following kind of guy, but the writing >> is on the wall. MLPE is the future. Modular, serviceable, >> disposable if you will. Like it or not, Edison is going to >> lose this battle to Tesla (Tom vs Nikola). And I live less >> than 5 minutes away from Tommy E's winter home in Fort Myers, >> FL. And I "grew up" in the industry living off-grid in DC >> power. But AC distribution wins for safety at various scales. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 9:42 PM >> > > wrote: >> >> Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires; it was originally >> drafted to allow firefighters to vent a roof without >> being hindered by energized PV arrays. This rule was >> expanded to include other DC wiring from PV sources. >> >> As for PV safety, I'd like to see some significant, >> statistical evidence that shows there is a major fire >> danger from PV relative to other sources. A fire from a >> solar array gets a lot more press than one from a gas >> leak, bad wiring or an ash tray emptied into a wastepaper >> basket. >> >> Large public buildings should have all the protection >> that is available. Does one size fit all? >> >> Would it be reasonable to allow residential installations >> under 12 kW, with 1/4 of the roof adjacent to the array >> available for venting, to be excepted from 690.12? What >> about sparsely occupied commercial buildings with ample >> roof area open for ventilation? >> >> Many of us have chosen to work with renewable energy >> technology to lessen the harms caused by fossil fuel >> extraction and combustion. The need for non-carbon based >> energy sources has become extremely clear. >> >> The old string inverters still chug along year after >> year, with little or no maintenance. Someone must pay for >> the ongoing maintenance of module level electronics. >> Dependable string inverter systems should be allowed >> unless statically significant danger can be demonstrated. >> >> Drake >> >> --- >> >> >> On 2020-04-29 16:01, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> >> I have been to several PV fires for string inverter >> systems, both commercial and residential, and have >> seen many DC systems at serious risk of fires or in >> various stages of melted insulation and connectors. >> Most of these systems have exhibited good to >> excellent workmanship. Things just went wrong. Some >> were traceable to animal damage, wind, or other >> unmitigated factors, and some were unexplained. I >> disagree that there isn't justification for rapid >> shutdown. >> In my opinion, what we need is some additional >> innovation and competition in the MLPE space. >> Reliability is clearly a key factor, but there is no >> denying that MLPE has added safety benefits among >> other benefits. And if you do enough volume and set >> up your business for efficiency (standardization of >> product offerings), MLPE isn't much more expensive. >> It becomes a negligible cost relative to the benefit. >> The value proposition is easy to convey. There are >> limits to this, but for the majority of residential >> and small commercial installations, MLPE has become >> the de facto standard around here. String inverters >> are dinos, and replacing 8-12 year old transformer >> based inverters is many times more annoying than some >> MLPE swaps. I will admit that the roofs around here >> are pretty easy to walk, so that is a factor that >> might not apply to you. >> If you go under due to manufacturer product failures, >> you are not writing your contracts right or not >> charging enough for service issues beyond your >> control. I believe that's a red herring. You might >> suffer some reputation damage, but for someone that >> has been installing MLPE for over a decade, that is >> totally manageable. Consumers find a service call to >> replace MLPE a LOT more palatable than a surprise >> inverter replacement that could cost thousands of >> dollars. People just don't plan for that. >> Regarding rapid shutdown devices, I have also come >> across a few that "someone" has bypassed around here. >> I don't know if they were never installed properly or >> disabled/bypassed due to failure. It seemed >> suspicious to me at the time. I remember that it made >> me wonder what good is a rapid shutdown device if it >> is easily defeated? That's another argument for MLPE. >> It has pretty failsafe MLPE functionality. >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:59 AM >> > > wrote: >> >> Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and >> reduces reliability. Given the excellent safety >> record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being >> required, it is unnecessary. The few anecdotal >> incidents of PV fires were not enough to justify >> the requirement, especially on smaller systems. >> >> According to a friend who worked for a local >> installation company that went under, a big part >> of the reason for their failure was the chronic >> replacement of microinverters and optimizers. >> >> What steps can be taken to create some balance in >> the rapid shutdown requirements that are in the NEC? >> >> >> --- >> >> >> On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: >> >> So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. >> It's added a lot of cost for no measurable >> benefit. >> Using always off devices like midnight solar >> and Tigo makes it impossible to test open >> circuit voltages. Which opens the door to >> tons of problems when commissioning systems. >> Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's >> product and have had an absurd failure rate. >> Which means lots of truck rolls and >> troubleshooting and system downtime. They >> send replacement product but they aren't >> paying for the lost weeks of productivity. >> We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding >> which project to try it on. But our big >> concern about using it is not only the >> inability to confirm open circuit voltage of >> the strings but also the way panels bypass if >> the device doesn't allow the panel to connect >> properly. Both of these features are a recipe >> for problems and potential troubleshooting >> nightmares. The warranty from Tigo doesn't >> cover our expense if the product fails. And >> that's really what our reservations about the >> product boil down to right now. If we're on a >> job with 50 units and one fails, the >> contractor or the homeowner will be the ones >> eating the expense of finding it and >> replacing it. There has to be a better option. >> >> Sky Sims >> Https://EcologicalSystems.biz >> >> On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey >> Shalanski > > wrote: >> >> Now that 690.12 of the /NEC/ 2017 has >> been in effect for several years, I am >> curious how designers and installers are >> meeting the associated requirements with >> string inverter-based systems (*not* >> considering microinverters or DC >> optimizers). I am generally a fan of the >> KISS principle, and as best I can >> determine the /Tigo/ TS4-F device is one >> of the simplest options currently >> available on the market. What are others >> finding? >> I'd love to hear about favored options >> for complying with rapid shutdown. Any >> success stories? or better yet, any early >> failures? >> -- >> Corey Shalanski >> Jah Light Solar >> Portland, Jamaica >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: >> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: >> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> Y >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu May 7 09:43:41 2020 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:43:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: <3f82b821-5bf0-a0a6-1555-4ccfd267e77f@solarray.com> References: <5ADE39AD-6C89-4B04-986F-BEBB0A8C57D3@ecologicalsystems.biz> <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> <397a4a81b7f6d6c7d49761945fe86e45@redwoodalliance.org> <782ffb653cfa3127d25ade3ea7aba25f@redwoodalliance.org> <52a323f56e8f85faa40ffe6276873346@redwoodalliance.org> <3f82b821-5bf0-a0a6-1555-4ccfd267e77f@solarray.com> Message-ID: <7ba118f8-9764-da7f-b795-165422a4276b@entech-engineering.com> I believe Rapid Shutdown was mostly a solution looking for a problem.   The only way I see this becoming "reasonable" is to present "grievances" to the Code Making Panel WITH a solution for their consideration.  Based on experience from being part of an outreach program that taught approximately 10k firefighters over four years, I have asked that they add to the Directory, the language that states what type of solar electric system is on site (Microinverter, dc optimizer, string, multimode, grid isolated) so that First Responders don't have to guess.  I realize this is different than MLPE, but it targets the person who Rapid Shutdown came into being for, and that was the First Responder.   Chris On 5/6/2020 10:37 PM, Ray wrote: > > Spending more time on the roof, while putting more equipment and parts > to meet MLPE, means more trips up the ladder, which increases, not > decreases the #1 worker safety danger: Falls. Please correct me if I > have somehow misunderstood this, but MLPE is not making installers > safer based on OSHA information provided.   Also after installation, > which system is more likely to require workers to return to work on > the roof, pulling up modules, trying to find problem equipment?  More > connections is More safe?  Really?  I haven't had to climb back up on > the roof on any of my older, lower voltage off grid work in almost a > decade. > > Once again, MLPE has its place, (larger systems, multiple subarrays, > higher voltage) but we should have sensible exemptions as have been > mentioned already.  We are endangering ourselves and our employees > needlessly, to comply with 690.12. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 5/6/20 8:41 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >> >> Interestingly enough, the data on the link >>  provided >> shows accidents from gas explosions, falls, health problems and  >> industrial injuries. None of these incidents could have been >> prevented by module level power electronics. This is typical of the >> data that I've seen so far. >> >> --- >> >> >> On 2020-05-06 17:22, Martin Herzfeld wrote: >> >>> There could be an issue of encouraging MLPE for worker safety? >>> 1.  This is data involving incidents with workers in the OSHA >>> Fatalities and Catastrophe Investigation Summaries found here: >>> https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=solar&acc_keyword=&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=05&endday=05&endyear=2002&startmonth=05&startday=05&startyear=2021&InspNr= >>> 2.  In the past I've observed an arc fault at the module level with >>> traditional string systems without a listed arc-fault circuit >>> interrupter NEC/CEC 690.11. The function in NEC/CEC 690.12 would be >>> - to _reduce the shock hazard _- for /emergency responders/ or >>> /firefighters? (NEC 2020)./ However, I've observed thermal events in >>> the panelboard with plans and workmanship issues. >>> On the other hand, falls are the #1 reason for incidents in the >>> construction industry. >>> All the best, >>> >>> Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) >>> Certified Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation >>> Professional #IREC 10037 >>> Contract Training Provider (CTP) >>> Adjunct Professor, Energy >>> >>> California Solar & Electrical Contractor License  #00833782  C46, >>> C10, D56, D31, C-7 - Since 2004 >>> Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, >>> Instrumentation >>> >>> Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections >>> Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 >>> OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 >>> CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG >>> >>> * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical >>> Inspectors  #7035507 - Since 2006 >>> * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy >>> Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training Provider >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:29 AM >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> I would like to see real data on the fire risk of string >>> inverters. Anecdotal problems are not data. >>> The industry is definitely heading toward MLPE due to the rapid >>> shutdown requirements. In many cases MLPE makes sense, in other >>> cases it doesn't. >>> Systems that are more cost effective and reliable can often be >>> built by using string inverters. >>> --- >>> >>> >>> On 2020-04-29 22:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> >>> "Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires." >>> >>> Not true. If the effect of RS is to steer the market to >>> MLPE, I believe it has a significant impact on reducing fire >>> risk. As one who has watched a DC conductor fire smolder out >>> of control, I am sold on an AC module or microinverter >>> architecture. While RS on a DC array doesn't necessarily >>> reduce fire risk within the array, it still has the >>> potential to reduce severity and spread. Nothing is going to >>> prevent all fires. I get that. We're talking about risk >>> mitigation when it comes to RS. >>> As for "dependable string inverters," the one dependable >>> feature is failure at least once in the module lifetime, >>> accompanied by a shocking repair bill. >>> I'm not a shiny object following kind of guy, but the >>> writing is on the wall. MLPE is the future. Modular, >>> serviceable, disposable if you will. Like it or not, Edison >>> is going to lose this battle to Tesla (Tom vs Nikola). And I >>> live less than 5 minutes away from Tommy E's winter home in >>> Fort Myers, FL. And I "grew up" in the industry living >>> off-grid in DC power. But AC distribution wins for safety at >>> various scales. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 9:42 PM >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires; it was originally >>> drafted to allow firefighters to vent a roof without >>> being hindered by energized PV arrays. This rule was >>> expanded to include other DC wiring from PV sources. >>> >>> As for PV safety, I'd like to see some significant, >>> statistical evidence that shows there is a major fire >>> danger from PV relative to other sources. A fire from a >>> solar array gets a lot more press than one from a gas >>> leak, bad wiring or an ash tray emptied into a >>> wastepaper basket. >>> >>> Large public buildings should have all the protection >>> that is available. Does one size fit all? >>> >>> Would it be reasonable to allow residential >>> installations under 12 kW, with 1/4 of the roof adjacent >>> to the array available for venting, to be excepted from >>> 690.12? What about sparsely occupied commercial >>> buildings with ample roof area open for ventilation? >>> >>> Many of us have chosen to work with renewable energy >>> technology to lessen the harms caused by fossil fuel >>> extraction and combustion. The need for non-carbon based >>> energy sources has become extremely clear. >>> >>> The old string inverters still chug along year after >>> year, with little or no maintenance. Someone must pay >>> for the ongoing maintenance of module level electronics. >>> Dependable string inverter systems should be allowed >>> unless statically significant danger can be demonstrated. >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> --- >>> >>> >>> On 2020-04-29 16:01, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> >>> I have been to several PV fires for string inverter >>> systems, both commercial and residential, and have >>> seen many DC systems at serious risk of fires or in >>> various stages of melted insulation and connectors. >>> Most of these systems have exhibited good to >>> excellent workmanship. Things just went wrong. Some >>> were traceable to animal damage, wind, or other >>> unmitigated factors, and some were unexplained. I >>> disagree that there isn't justification for rapid >>> shutdown. >>> In my opinion, what we need is some additional >>> innovation and competition in the MLPE space. >>> Reliability is clearly a key factor, but there is no >>> denying that MLPE has added safety benefits among >>> other benefits. And if you do enough volume and set >>> up your business for efficiency (standardization of >>> product offerings), MLPE isn't much more expensive. >>> It becomes a negligible cost relative to the >>> benefit. The value proposition is easy to convey. >>> There are limits to this, but for the majority of >>> residential and small commercial installations, MLPE >>> has become the de facto standard around here. String >>> inverters are dinos, and replacing 8-12 year old >>> transformer based inverters is many times more >>> annoying than some MLPE swaps. I will admit that the >>> roofs around here are pretty easy to walk, so that >>> is a factor that might not apply to you. >>> If you go under due to manufacturer product >>> failures, you are not writing your contracts right >>> or not charging enough for service issues beyond >>> your control. I believe that's a red herring. You >>> might suffer some reputation damage, but for someone >>> that has been installing MLPE for over a decade, >>> that is totally manageable. Consumers find a service >>> call to replace MLPE a LOT more palatable than a >>> surprise inverter replacement that could cost >>> thousands of dollars. People just don't plan for that. >>> Regarding rapid shutdown devices, I have also come >>> across a few that "someone" has bypassed around >>> here. I don't know if they were never installed >>> properly or disabled/bypassed due to failure. It >>> seemed suspicious to me at the time. I remember that >>> it made me wonder what good is a rapid shutdown >>> device if it is easily defeated? That's another >>> argument for MLPE. It has pretty failsafe MLPE >>> functionality. >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:59 AM >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and >>> reduces reliability. Given the excellent safety >>> record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being >>> required, it is unnecessary. The few anecdotal >>> incidents of PV fires were not enough to justify >>> the requirement, especially on smaller systems. >>> >>> According to a friend who worked for a local >>> installation company that went under, a big part >>> of the reason for their failure was the chronic >>> replacement of microinverters and optimizers. >>> >>> What steps can be taken to create some balance >>> in the rapid shutdown requirements that are in >>> the NEC? >>> >>> >>> --- >>> >>> >>> On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: >>> >>> So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. >>> It's added a lot of cost for no measurable >>> benefit. >>> Using always off devices like midnight solar >>> and Tigo makes it impossible to test open >>> circuit voltages. Which opens the door to >>> tons of problems when commissioning systems. >>> Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's >>> product and have had an absurd failure rate. >>> Which means lots of truck rolls and >>> troubleshooting and system downtime. They >>> send replacement product but they aren't >>> paying for the lost weeks of productivity. >>> We have Tigo product in hand and are >>> deciding which project to try it on. But our >>> big concern about using it is not only the >>> inability to confirm open circuit voltage of >>> the strings but also the way panels bypass >>> if the device doesn't allow the panel to >>> connect properly. Both of these features are >>> a recipe for problems and potential >>> troubleshooting nightmares. The warranty >>> from Tigo doesn't cover our expense if the >>> product fails. And that's really what our >>> reservations about the product boil down to >>> right now. If we're on a job with 50 units >>> and one fails, the contractor or the >>> homeowner will be the ones eating the >>> expense of finding it and replacing it. >>> There has to be a better option. >>> >>> Sky Sims >>> Https://EcologicalSystems.biz >>> >>> On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey >>> Shalanski >> > wrote: >>> >>> Now that 690.12 of the /NEC/ 2017 has >>> been in effect for several years, I am >>> curious how designers and installers are >>> meeting the associated requirements with >>> string inverter-based systems (*not* >>> considering microinverters or DC >>> optimizers). I am generally a fan of the >>> KISS principle, and as best I can >>> determine the /Tigo/ TS4-F device is one >>> of the simplest options currently >>> available on the market. What are others >>> finding? >>> I'd love to hear about favored options >>> for complying with rapid shutdown. Any >>> success stories? or better yet, any >>> early failures? >>> -- >>> Corey Shalanski >>> Jah Light Solar >>> Portland, Jamaica >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: >>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: >>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Y >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu May 7 09:52:34 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 06:52:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Skybox In-Reply-To: <64FED724-B79E-4910-8A48-D5EE628A8A2B@gmail.com> References: <64FED724-B79E-4910-8A48-D5EE628A8A2B@gmail.com> Message-ID: The 2 Skybox inverters I installed both were based on soft start water pumps (grundfos) and a soft start air compressor for the garage. It cost more to replace the electric dryer and water heater than the solar. The owners then had a home that could run off Skybox or a small genset. These were both for Cal Fire guy's. They knew what they did not want from experience. I just helped them get there. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 6 May 2020 18:35:44 -0700, Jay wrote: 5 kva max, no surge regardless of use. A rather large shortcoming for a battery inverter. I'm guessing they were thinking more of battery sell mode vs powering loads directly, but just a guess. Jay Peltz power On May 6, 2020, at 6:31 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Is the 5kw limit and no surge capacity for the backed up AC loads only when operating off grid? If you occasionally trip a breaker during the relatively rare times when the grid is out (around here at least) it is not such a big deal. But if you had to deal with that daily, you would have to be way more conservative as to what loads are allowed to be backed up. Also, is there an inverter bypass built into the BOS enclosure, or do you need to wire up a separate one in case of inverter failure. Cheers, Dave DAVE TEDEYAN, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com [3] Solar * Sustainability * Energy * Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 8:24 PM wrote: I'm finding the SkyBox to be reliable hardware, if you don't need big surge capability. But the software is still in flux. I have had to reject software updates that froze the system, going back to the previous version to bring it back again. One issue is that AC coupling does not work with multiple Skyboxen, unlike with older Radians. Another huge problem that seems to be software related is that dual SkyBoxen with different sized solar arrays discharge their battery banks at different rates. This becomes an issue in multiple day grid outages like we now expect in north CA fire season. You'd think the SkyBox master-slave relationship would allow them to coordinate, but this causes the one with a smaller solar array to run down it's battery sooner, faulting the system causing a complete shutdown of both SkyBoxen. OutBack says they are not fixing this, so I'm looking at SolArk for systems larger than 5 kW. Don Barch Energy Solar -------- Original Message -------- Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 124 From: re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Date: Mon, May 04, 2020 2:40 pm To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] You can reach the person managing the list at re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. Today's Topics: 1. Skybox (Dave Tedeyan) 2. Re: Skybox (Jerry Shafer) 3. Re: Skybox (jay) 4. Re: Skybox (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com [11]) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 21:32:38 -0400 From: Dave Tedeyan To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Skybox Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi All, Does anyone have experience using Outback's Skybox inverter? I have someone interested and am curious to hear if people have had luck with them and if they are reliable. Also, I've been seeing promo material for Fronius' Gen 24 Plus inverter, which looks like it fills the same niche. Are those even available for purchase yet? If so, does anyone have experience with these? Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com [15] Solar ? Sustainability ? Energy ? Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: someone interested and am curious to hear if people have had luck with them > and if they are reliable. > > Also, I've been seeing promo material for Fronius' Gen 24 Plus inverter, > which looks like it fills the same niche. Are those even available for > purchase yet? If so, does anyone have experience with these? > > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com [21] > > Solar ? Sustainability ? Energy ? Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [22] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [23] > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [24] > > List rules charset="utf-8" HI Dave, The reason I?ve not used it, is that is has no surge. You might also look at the Sol Ark Jay Peltz Power > On May 3, 2020, at 6:32 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Hi All, > > Does anyone have experience using Outback's Skybox inverter? I have someone interested and am curious to hear if people have had luck with them and if they are reliable. > > Also, I've been seeing promo material for Fronius' Gen 24 Plus inverter, which looks like it fills the same niche. Are those even available for purchase yet? If so, does anyone have experience with these? > > Cheers, > Dave > > Dave Tedeyan, PE > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com [32] > > Solar ? Sustainability ? Energy ? Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [34] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [35] > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [36] > > List rules charset=iso-8859-1 I second Jay's suggestion to look at the SolArk. The 8kW has no battery disconnect, but the 12 kW has one, if you're using non-lithium based batteries. Daryl Penobscot Solar Design > HI Dave, > > The reason I???ve not used it, is that is has no surge. > > You might also look at the Sol Ark > > Jay > Peltz Power > >> On May 3, 2020, at 6:32 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> Does anyone have experience using Outback's Skybox inverter? I have >> someone interested and am curious to hear if people have had luck with >> them and if they are reliable. >> >> Also, I've been seeing promo material for Fronius' Gen 24 Plus inverter, >> which looks like it fills the same niche. Are those even available for >> purchase yet? If so, does anyone have experience with these? >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> Dave Tedeyan, PE >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com [44] >> >> Solar ??? Sustainability ??? Energy ??? 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URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Thu May 7 10:18:50 2020 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:18:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: <7ba118f8-9764-da7f-b795-165422a4276b@entech-engineering.com> References: <5ADE39AD-6C89-4B04-986F-BEBB0A8C57D3@ecologicalsystems.biz> <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> <397a4a81b7f6d6c7d49761945fe86e45@redwoodalliance.org> <782ffb653cfa3127d25ade3ea7aba25f@redwoodalliance.org> <52a323f56e8f85faa40ffe6276873346@redwoodalliance.org> <3f82b821-5bf0-a0a6-1555-4ccfd267e77f@solarray.com> <7ba118f8-9764-da7f-b795-165422a4276b@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: If first responders are the point of all the rapid shutdown, there needs to be better exemptions. I personally have a 20kW solar array on a 100 year old unused barn at my farm. The roof is at 50 degrees slope and needs a 60ft boom lift to access. There was significant extra expense and effort for the rapid shut down. And there is absolutely zero chance that a first responder would do anything other than watch the barn burn. And now I have an array that needs a $1,000 piece of rental equipment to get to the back of any module. There is a big difference between the stuff that is in big cities and what is in rural and what is in remote locations. For my telecom customers in Alaska and Antarctica, what is the point of decreasing reliability by putting module level electronics on solar arrays that require a multiple hour helicopter flight to get to. That's not protecting anybody other than the MLPE manufacturer's profit. -James Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 8:43 AM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > I believe Rapid Shutdown was mostly a solution looking for a problem. > The only way I see this becoming "reasonable" is to present "grievances" to > the Code Making Panel WITH a solution for their consideration. Based on > experience from being part of an outreach program that taught approximately > 10k firefighters over four years, I have asked that they add to the > Directory, the language that states what type of solar electric system is > on site (Microinverter, dc optimizer, string, multimode, grid isolated) so > that First Responders don't have to guess. I realize this is different > than MLPE, but it targets the person who Rapid Shutdown came into being > for, and that was the First Responder. Chris > > > On 5/6/2020 10:37 PM, Ray wrote: > > Spending more time on the roof, while putting more equipment and parts to > meet MLPE, means more trips up the ladder, which increases, not decreases > the #1 worker safety danger: Falls. Please correct me if I have somehow > misunderstood this, but MLPE is not making installers safer based on OSHA > information provided. Also after installation, which system is more > likely to require workers to return to work on the roof, pulling up > modules, trying to find problem equipment? More connections is More safe? > Really? I haven't had to climb back up on the roof on any of my older, > lower voltage off grid work in almost a decade. > > Once again, MLPE has its place, (larger systems, multiple subarrays, > higher voltage) but we should have sensible exemptions as have been > mentioned already. We are endangering ourselves and our employees > needlessly, to comply with 690.12. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 5/6/20 8:41 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Interestingly enough, the data on the link > provided > shows accidents from gas explosions, falls, health problems and industrial > injuries. None of these incidents could have been prevented by module level > power electronics. This is typical of the data that I've seen so far. > --- > > > > On 2020-05-06 17:22, Martin Herzfeld wrote: > > There could be an issue of encouraging MLPE for worker safety? > > 1. This is data involving incidents with workers in the OSHA Fatalities > and Catastrophe Investigation Summaries found here: > > https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=solar&acc_keyword=&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=05&endday=05&endyear=2002&startmonth=05&startday=05&startyear=2021&InspNr= > > 2. In the past I've observed an arc fault at the module level with > traditional string systems without a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter > NEC/CEC 690.11. The function in NEC/CEC 690.12 would be - to *reduce the > shock hazard *- for *emergency responders* or *firefighters? (NEC 2020).* > However, I've observed thermal events in the panelboard with plans and > workmanship issues. > > On the other hand, falls are the #1 reason for incidents in the > construction industry. > > All the best, > > Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified > Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC > 10037 > Contract Training Provider (CTP) > Adjunct Professor, Energy > > California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, > D56, D31, C-7 - Since 2004 > Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, > Instrumentation > > Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections > Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 > OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 > CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG > > * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors > #7035507 - Since 2006 > * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy > Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training Provider > > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:29 AM > wrote: > > > I would like to see real data on the fire risk of string inverters. > Anecdotal problems are not data. > > The industry is definitely heading toward MLPE due to the rapid shutdown > requirements. In many cases MLPE makes sense, in other cases it doesn't. > > Systems that are more cost effective and reliable can often be built by > using string inverters. > --- > > > > > On 2020-04-29 22:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > "Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires." > > Not true. If the effect of RS is to steer the market to MLPE, I believe it > has a significant impact on reducing fire risk. As one who has watched a DC > conductor fire smolder out of control, I am sold on an AC module or > microinverter architecture. While RS on a DC array doesn't necessarily > reduce fire risk within the array, it still has the potential to reduce > severity and spread. Nothing is going to prevent all fires. I get that. > We're talking about risk mitigation when it comes to RS. > > As for "dependable string inverters," the one dependable feature is > failure at least once in the module lifetime, accompanied by a shocking > repair bill. > > I'm not a shiny object following kind of guy, but the writing is on the > wall. MLPE is the future. Modular, serviceable, disposable if you will. > Like it or not, Edison is going to lose this battle to Tesla (Tom vs > Nikola). And I live less than 5 minutes away from Tommy E's winter home in > Fort Myers, FL. And I "grew up" in the industry living off-grid in DC > power. But AC distribution wins for safety at various scales. > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 9:42 PM > wrote: > > Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires; it was originally drafted to allow > firefighters to vent a roof without being hindered by energized PV arrays. > This rule was expanded to include other DC wiring from PV sources. > > As for PV safety, I'd like to see some significant, statistical evidence > that shows there is a major fire danger from PV relative to other sources. > A fire from a solar array gets a lot more press than one from a gas leak, > bad wiring or an ash tray emptied into a wastepaper basket. > > Large public buildings should have all the protection that is available. > Does one size fit all? > > Would it be reasonable to allow residential installations under 12 kW, > with 1/4 of the roof adjacent to the array available for venting, to be > excepted from 690.12? What about sparsely occupied commercial buildings > with ample roof area open for ventilation? > > Many of us have chosen to work with renewable energy technology to lessen > the harms caused by fossil fuel extraction and combustion. The need for > non-carbon based energy sources has become extremely clear. > > The old string inverters still chug along year after year, with little or > no maintenance. Someone must pay for the ongoing maintenance of module > level electronics. Dependable string inverter systems should be allowed > unless statically significant danger can be demonstrated. > > Drake > --- > > > > On 2020-04-29 16:01, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I have been to several PV fires for string inverter systems, both > commercial and residential, and have seen many DC systems at serious risk > of fires or in various stages of melted insulation and connectors. Most of > these systems have exhibited good to excellent workmanship. Things just > went wrong. Some were traceable to animal damage, wind, or other > unmitigated factors, and some were unexplained. I disagree that there isn't > justification for rapid shutdown. > > In my opinion, what we need is some additional innovation and competition > in the MLPE space. Reliability is clearly a key factor, but there is no > denying that MLPE has added safety benefits among other benefits. And if > you do enough volume and set up your business for efficiency > (standardization of product offerings), MLPE isn't much more expensive. It > becomes a negligible cost relative to the benefit. The value proposition is > easy to convey. There are limits to this, but for the majority of > residential and small commercial installations, MLPE has become the de > facto standard around here. String inverters are dinos, and replacing 8-12 > year old transformer based inverters is many times more annoying than some > MLPE swaps. I will admit that the roofs around here are pretty easy to > walk, so that is a factor that might not apply to you. > > If you go under due to manufacturer product failures, you are not writing > your contracts right or not charging enough for service issues beyond your > control. I believe that's a red herring. You might suffer some reputation > damage, but for someone that has been installing MLPE for over a decade, > that is totally manageable. Consumers find a service call to replace MLPE a > LOT more palatable than a surprise inverter replacement that could cost > thousands of dollars. People just don't plan for that. > > Regarding rapid shutdown devices, I have also come across a few that > "someone" has bypassed around here. I don't know if they were never > installed properly or disabled/bypassed due to failure. It seemed > suspicious to me at the time. I remember that it made me wonder what good > is a rapid shutdown device if it is easily defeated? That's another > argument for MLPE. It has pretty failsafe MLPE functionality. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:59 AM > wrote: > > Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and reduces reliability. Given the > excellent safety record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being required, it > is unnecessary. The few anecdotal incidents of PV fires were not enough to > justify the requirement, especially on smaller systems. > > According to a friend who worked for a local installation company that > went under, a big part of the reason for their failure was the chronic > replacement of microinverters and optimizers. > > What steps can be taken to create some balance in the rapid shutdown > requirements that are in the NEC? > > > --- > > > > On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: > > So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It's added a lot of cost for > no measurable benefit. > Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it impossible > to test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door to tons of problems > when commissioning systems. > Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's product and have had an absurd > failure rate. Which means lots of truck rolls and troubleshooting and > system downtime. They send replacement product but they aren't paying for > the lost weeks of productivity. > We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding which project to try it on. > But our big concern about using it is not only the inability to confirm > open circuit voltage of the strings but also the way panels bypass if the > device doesn't allow the panel to connect properly. Both of these features > are a recipe for problems and potential troubleshooting nightmares. The > warranty from Tigo doesn't cover our expense if the product fails. And > that's really what our reservations about the product boil down to right > now. If we're on a job with 50 units and one fails, the contractor or the > homeowner will be the ones eating the expense of finding it and replacing > it. There has to be a better option. > > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > > On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > > Now that 690.12 of the *NEC* 2017 has been in effect for several years, I > am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated > requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering > microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS > principle, and as best I can determine the *Tigo* TS4-F device is one of > the simplest options currently available on the market. What are others > finding? > > I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown. > Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Y > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evolvedsolar at gmail.com Thu May 7 11:04:26 2020 From: evolvedsolar at gmail.com (Al Frishman) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:04:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Neutral Sizing 705.95 Message-ID: Hey Wrenchers, Wondering what you all think about NEC Article 705.95 and if downsizing the Neutral is common practice. If your JHA accepts it and the model inverter you are installing complies do you see any issues with downsizing the Neutral? This section of code has been in place since 2011 and I must admit I have been slow to adopt it. 705.95 Ampacity of Neutral Conductor. The ampacity of the neutral conductors shall comply with either (A) or (B) (A) Neutral Conductor for Single Phase, 2-Wire In- verter Output. If a single-phase, 2-wire inverter output is connected to the neutral and one ungrounded conductor (only) of a 3-wire system or of a 3-phase, 4-wire, wye- connected system, the maximum load connected between the neutral and any one ungrounded conductor plus the inverter output rating shall not exceed the ampacity of the neutral conductor. (B) Neutral Conductor for Instrumentation, Voltage Detection or Phase Detection. A conductor used solely for instrumentation, voltage detection, or phase detection and connected to a single-phase or 3-phase utility-interactive inverter, shall be permitted to be sized at less than the ampacity of the other current-carrying conductors and shall be sized equal to or larger than the equipment grounding conductor. Al Frishman EvolvedSolar (917) 699-6641 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu May 7 11:08:53 2020 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:08:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: References: <5ADE39AD-6C89-4B04-986F-BEBB0A8C57D3@ecologicalsystems.biz> <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> <397a4a81b7f6d6c7d49761945fe86e45@redwoodalliance.org> <782ffb653cfa3127d25ade3ea7aba25f@redwoodalliance.org> <52a323f56e8f85faa40ffe6276873346@redwoodalliance.org> <3f82b821-5bf0-a0a6-1555-4ccfd267e77f@solarray.com> <7ba118f8-9764-da7f-b795-165422a4276b@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <9c7693b5-09d9-a107-1fae-f06c6e6a1018@entech-engineering.com> To change this, we need to recognize we are "fighting City Hall", and I doubt the CMP will be motivated to make changes on their own.  Maybe this has always been more political than technical, but it seems that those who are opposed to the current requirements need to make it known through the formal processes. The CMP is required to respond and in that response we can learn of their reasons for not accepting any changes, or the changes they would be willing to consider.  I just don't see things changing otherwise. On 5/7/2020 10:18 AM, James Jarvis wrote: > If first responders are the point of all the rapid shutdown, there > needs to be better exemptions. I personally have a 20kW solar array on > a 100 year old unused barn at my farm. The roof is at 50 degrees slope > and needs a 60ft boom lift to access. There was significant extra > expense and effort for the rapid shut down. And there is absolutely > zero chance that a first responder would do anything other than watch > the barn burn. And now I have an array that needs a $1,000 piece of > rental equipment to get to the back of any module. > > There is a big difference between the stuff that is in big cities and > what is in rural and what is in remote locations. For my telecom > customers in Alaska and Antarctica, what is the point of decreasing > reliability by putting module level electronics on solar arrays that > require a multiple hour helicopter flight to get to. That's not > protecting anybody other than the MLPE manufacturer's profit. > > > -James Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > > > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 8:43 AM Christopher Warfel > > wrote: > > I believe Rapid Shutdown was mostly a solution looking for a > problem.   The only way I see this becoming "reasonable" is to > present "grievances" to the Code Making Panel WITH a solution for > their consideration.  Based on experience from being part of an > outreach program that taught approximately 10k firefighters over > four years, I have asked that they add to the Directory, the > language that states what type of solar electric system is on site > (Microinverter, dc optimizer, string, multimode, grid isolated) so > that First Responders don't have to guess.  I realize this is > different than MLPE, but it targets the person who Rapid Shutdown > came into being for, and that was the First Responder.   Chris > > > On 5/6/2020 10:37 PM, Ray wrote: >> >> Spending more time on the roof, while putting more equipment and >> parts to meet MLPE, means more trips up the ladder, which >> increases, not decreases the #1 worker safety danger: Falls.  >> Please correct me if I have somehow misunderstood this, but MLPE >> is not making installers safer based on OSHA information >> provided. Also after installation, which system is more likely to >> require workers to return to work on the roof, pulling up >> modules, trying to find problem equipment?  More connections is >> More safe?  Really?  I haven't had to climb back up on the roof >> on any of my older, lower voltage off grid work in almost a decade. >> >> Once again, MLPE has its place, (larger systems, multiple >> subarrays, higher voltage) but we should have sensible exemptions >> as have been mentioned already.  We are endangering ourselves and >> our employees needlessly, to comply with 690.12. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 5/6/20 8:41 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >> wrote: >>> >>> Interestingly enough, the data on the link >>>  provided >>> shows accidents from gas explosions, falls, health problems and  >>> industrial injuries. None of these incidents could have been >>> prevented by module level power electronics. This is typical of >>> the data that I've seen so far. >>> >>> --- >>> >>> >>> On 2020-05-06 17:22, Martin Herzfeld wrote: >>> >>>> There could be an issue of encouraging MLPE for worker safety? >>>> 1.  This is data involving incidents with workers in the OSHA >>>> Fatalities and Catastrophe Investigation Summaries found here: >>>> https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=solar&acc_keyword=&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=05&endday=05&endyear=2002&startmonth=05&startday=05&startyear=2021&InspNr= >>>> 2.  In the past I've observed an arc fault at the module level >>>> with traditional string systems without a listed arc-fault >>>> circuit interrupter NEC/CEC 690.11. The function in NEC/CEC >>>> 690.12 would be - to _reduce the shock hazard _- for /emergency >>>> responders/ or /firefighters? (NEC 2020)./  However, I've >>>> observed thermal events in the panelboard with plans and >>>> workmanship issues. >>>> On the other hand, falls are the #1 reason for incidents in the >>>> construction industry. >>>> All the best, >>>> >>>> Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) >>>> Certified Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation >>>> Professional #IREC 10037 >>>> Contract Training Provider (CTP) >>>> Adjunct Professor, Energy >>>> >>>> California Solar & Electrical Contractor License  #00833782  >>>> C46, C10, D56, D31, C-7 - Since 2004 >>>> Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, >>>> Instrumentation >>>> >>>> Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections >>>> Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 >>>> OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 >>>> CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) >>>> #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG >>>> >>>> * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical >>>> Inspectors #7035507 - Since 2006 >>>> * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified >>>> Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) >>>> Training Provider >>>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:29 AM >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> I would like to see real data on the fire risk of string >>>> inverters. Anecdotal problems are not data. >>>> The industry is definitely heading toward MLPE due to the >>>> rapid shutdown requirements. In many cases MLPE makes >>>> sense, in other cases it doesn't. >>>> Systems that are more cost effective and reliable can often >>>> be built by using string inverters. >>>> --- >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2020-04-29 22:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>> >>>> "Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires." >>>> >>>> Not true. If the effect of RS is to steer the market to >>>> MLPE, I believe it has a significant impact on reducing >>>> fire risk. As one who has watched a DC conductor fire >>>> smolder out of control, I am sold on an AC module or >>>> microinverter architecture. While RS on a DC array >>>> doesn't necessarily reduce fire risk within the array, >>>> it still has the potential to reduce severity and >>>> spread. Nothing is going to prevent all fires. I get >>>> that. We're talking about risk mitigation when it comes >>>> to RS. >>>> As for "dependable string inverters," the one >>>> dependable feature is failure at least once in the >>>> module lifetime, accompanied by a shocking repair bill. >>>> I'm not a shiny object following kind of guy, but the >>>> writing is on the wall. MLPE is the future. Modular, >>>> serviceable, disposable if you will. Like it or not, >>>> Edison is going to lose this battle to Tesla (Tom vs >>>> Nikola). And I live less than 5 minutes away from Tommy >>>> E's winter home in Fort Myers, FL. And I "grew up" in >>>> the industry living off-grid in DC power. But AC >>>> distribution wins for safety at various scales. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 9:42 PM >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires; it was >>>> originally drafted to allow firefighters to vent a >>>> roof without being hindered by energized PV arrays. >>>> This rule was expanded to include other DC wiring >>>> from PV sources. >>>> >>>> As for PV safety, I'd like to see some significant, >>>> statistical evidence that shows there is a major >>>> fire danger from PV relative to other sources. A >>>> fire from a solar array gets a lot more press than >>>> one from a gas leak, bad wiring or an ash tray >>>> emptied into a wastepaper basket. >>>> >>>> Large public buildings should have all the >>>> protection that is available. Does one size fit all? >>>> >>>> Would it be reasonable to allow residential >>>> installations under 12 kW, with 1/4 of the roof >>>> adjacent to the array available for venting, to be >>>> excepted from 690.12? What about sparsely occupied >>>> commercial buildings with ample roof area open for >>>> ventilation? >>>> >>>> Many of us have chosen to work with renewable >>>> energy technology to lessen the harms caused by >>>> fossil fuel extraction and combustion. The need for >>>> non-carbon based energy sources has become >>>> extremely clear. >>>> >>>> The old string inverters still chug along year >>>> after year, with little or no maintenance. Someone >>>> must pay for the ongoing maintenance of module >>>> level electronics. Dependable string inverter >>>> systems should be allowed unless statically >>>> significant danger can be demonstrated. >>>> >>>> Drake >>>> >>>> --- >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2020-04-29 16:01, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>> >>>> I have been to several PV fires for string >>>> inverter systems, both commercial and >>>> residential, and have seen many DC systems at >>>> serious risk of fires or in various stages of >>>> melted insulation and connectors. Most of these >>>> systems have exhibited good to excellent >>>> workmanship. Things just went wrong. Some >>>> were traceable to animal damage, wind, or other >>>> unmitigated factors, and some were unexplained. >>>> I disagree that there isn't justification for >>>> rapid shutdown. >>>> In my opinion, what we need is some additional >>>> innovation and competition in the MLPE space. >>>> Reliability is clearly a key factor, but there >>>> is no denying that MLPE has added safety >>>> benefits among other benefits. And if you do >>>> enough volume and set up your business for >>>> efficiency (standardization of product >>>> offerings), MLPE isn't much more expensive. It >>>> becomes a negligible cost relative to the >>>> benefit. The value proposition is easy to >>>> convey. There are limits to this, but for the >>>> majority of residential and small commercial >>>> installations, MLPE has become the de facto >>>> standard around here. String inverters are >>>> dinos, and replacing 8-12 year old transformer >>>> based inverters is many times more annoying >>>> than some MLPE swaps. I will admit that the >>>> roofs around here are pretty easy to walk, so >>>> that is a factor that might not apply to you. >>>> If you go under due to manufacturer product >>>> failures, you are not writing your contracts >>>> right or not charging enough for service issues >>>> beyond your control. I believe that's a red >>>> herring. You might suffer some reputation >>>> damage, but for someone that has been >>>> installing MLPE for over a decade, that is >>>> totally manageable. Consumers find a service >>>> call to replace MLPE a LOT more palatable than >>>> a surprise inverter replacement that could cost >>>> thousands of dollars. People just don't plan >>>> for that. >>>> Regarding rapid shutdown devices, I have also >>>> come across a few that "someone" has bypassed >>>> around here. I don't know if they were never >>>> installed properly or disabled/bypassed due to >>>> failure. It seemed suspicious to me at the >>>> time. I remember that it made me wonder what >>>> good is a rapid shutdown device if it is easily >>>> defeated? That's another argument for MLPE. It >>>> has pretty failsafe MLPE functionality. >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:59 AM >>>> >>> > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and >>>> reduces reliability. Given the excellent >>>> safety record of PV, prior to rapid >>>> shutdown being required, it is unnecessary. >>>> The few anecdotal incidents of PV fires >>>> were not enough to justify the requirement, >>>> especially on smaller systems. >>>> >>>> According to a friend who worked for a >>>> local installation company that went under, >>>> a big part of the reason for their failure >>>> was the chronic replacement of >>>> microinverters and optimizers. >>>> >>>> What steps can be taken to create some >>>> balance in the rapid shutdown requirements >>>> that are in the NEC? >>>> >>>> >>>> --- >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: >>>> >>>> So far rapid shutdown has been a >>>> nightmare. It's added a lot of cost for >>>> no measurable benefit. >>>> Using always off devices like midnight >>>> solar and Tigo makes it impossible to >>>> test open circuit voltages. Which opens >>>> the door to tons of problems when >>>> commissioning systems. >>>> Also we've been trying out midnight >>>> Solar's product and have had an absurd >>>> failure rate. Which means lots of truck >>>> rolls and troubleshooting and system >>>> downtime. They send replacement product >>>> but they aren't paying for the lost >>>> weeks of productivity. >>>> We have Tigo product in hand and are >>>> deciding which project to try it on. >>>> But our big concern about using it is >>>> not only the inability to confirm open >>>> circuit voltage of the strings but also >>>> the way panels bypass if the device >>>> doesn't allow the panel to connect >>>> properly. Both of these features are a >>>> recipe for problems and potential >>>> troubleshooting nightmares. The >>>> warranty from Tigo doesn't cover our >>>> expense if the product fails. And >>>> that's really what our reservations >>>> about the product boil down to right >>>> now. If we're on a job with 50 units >>>> and one fails, the contractor or the >>>> homeowner will be the ones eating the >>>> expense of finding it and replacing it. >>>> There has to be a better option. >>>> >>>> Sky Sims >>>> Https://EcologicalSystems.biz >>>> >>>> On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey >>>> Shalanski >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Now that 690.12 of the /NEC/ 2017 >>>> has been in effect for several >>>> years, I am curious how designers >>>> and installers are meeting the >>>> associated requirements with string >>>> inverter-based systems (*not* >>>> considering microinverters or DC >>>> optimizers). I am generally a fan >>>> of the KISS principle, and as best >>>> I can determine the /Tigo/ TS4-F >>>> device is one of the simplest >>>> options currently available on the >>>> market. What are others finding? >>>> I'd love to hear about favored >>>> options for complying with rapid >>>> shutdown. Any success stories? or >>>> better yet, any early failures? >>>> -- >>>> Corey Shalanski >>>> Jah Light Solar >>>> Portland, Jamaica >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: >>>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & >>>> settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: >>>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: >>>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Y >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> 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lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Thu May 7 11:39:08 2020 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 08:39:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: <7ba118f8-9764-da7f-b795-165422a4276b@entech-engineering.com> References: <5ADE39AD-6C89-4B04-986F-BEBB0A8C57D3@ecologicalsystems.biz> <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> <397a4a81b7f6d6c7d49761945fe86e45@redwoodalliance.org> <782ffb653cfa3127d25ade3ea7aba25f@redwoodalliance.org> <52a323f56e8f85faa40ffe6276873346@redwoodalliance.org> <3f82b821-5bf0-a0a6-1555-4ccfd267e77f@solarray.com> <7ba118f8-9764-da7f-b795-165422a4276b@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: I agree: utilize the formal process, ideally with a group of folks. If you are a SEIA member, get involved in their Codes and Standards process. The additional directory language you suggest is not likely to be valuable to many first responders without significant training and documentation, and even then is still likely to get "lost" amongst other labels and directories. RS as required now instead focuses on an initiation device(s), so that the device is all responders need to look for - it's up to the installer to specify and put in the correct gear to make RS happen, and the AHJ to verify this. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 6:43 AM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > I believe Rapid Shutdown was mostly a solution looking for a problem. > The only way I see this becoming "reasonable" is to present "grievances" to > the Code Making Panel WITH a solution for their consideration. Based on > experience from being part of an outreach program that taught approximately > 10k firefighters over four years, I have asked that they add to the > Directory, the language that states what type of solar electric system is > on site (Microinverter, dc optimizer, string, multimode, grid isolated) so > that First Responders don't have to guess. I realize this is different > than MLPE, but it targets the person who Rapid Shutdown came into being > for, and that was the First Responder. Chris > > > On 5/6/2020 10:37 PM, Ray wrote: > > Spending more time on the roof, while putting more equipment and parts to > meet MLPE, means more trips up the ladder, which increases, not decreases > the #1 worker safety danger: Falls. Please correct me if I have somehow > misunderstood this, but MLPE is not making installers safer based on OSHA > information provided. Also after installation, which system is more > likely to require workers to return to work on the roof, pulling up > modules, trying to find problem equipment? More connections is More safe? > Really? I haven't had to climb back up on the roof on any of my older, > lower voltage off grid work in almost a decade. > > Once again, MLPE has its place, (larger systems, multiple subarrays, > higher voltage) but we should have sensible exemptions as have been > mentioned already. We are endangering ourselves and our employees > needlessly, to comply with 690.12. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 5/6/20 8:41 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Interestingly enough, the data on the link > provided > shows accidents from gas explosions, falls, health problems and industrial > injuries. None of these incidents could have been prevented by module level > power electronics. This is typical of the data that I've seen so far. > --- > > > > On 2020-05-06 17:22, Martin Herzfeld wrote: > > There could be an issue of encouraging MLPE for worker safety? > > 1. This is data involving incidents with workers in the OSHA Fatalities > and Catastrophe Investigation Summaries found here: > > https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=solar&acc_keyword=&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=05&endday=05&endyear=2002&startmonth=05&startday=05&startyear=2021&InspNr= > > 2. In the past I've observed an arc fault at the module level with > traditional string systems without a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter > NEC/CEC 690.11. The function in NEC/CEC 690.12 would be - to *reduce the > shock hazard *- for *emergency responders* or *firefighters? (NEC 2020).* > However, I've observed thermal events in the panelboard with plans and > workmanship issues. > > On the other hand, falls are the #1 reason for incidents in the > construction industry. > > All the best, > > Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified > Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC > 10037 > Contract Training Provider (CTP) > Adjunct Professor, Energy > > California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, > D56, D31, C-7 - Since 2004 > Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, > Instrumentation > > Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections > Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 > OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 > CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG > > * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors > #7035507 - Since 2006 > * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy > Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training Provider > > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:29 AM > wrote: > > > I would like to see real data on the fire risk of string inverters. > Anecdotal problems are not data. > > The industry is definitely heading toward MLPE due to the rapid shutdown > requirements. In many cases MLPE makes sense, in other cases it doesn't. > > Systems that are more cost effective and reliable can often be built by > using string inverters. > --- > > > > > On 2020-04-29 22:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > "Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires." > > Not true. If the effect of RS is to steer the market to MLPE, I believe it > has a significant impact on reducing fire risk. As one who has watched a DC > conductor fire smolder out of control, I am sold on an AC module or > microinverter architecture. While RS on a DC array doesn't necessarily > reduce fire risk within the array, it still has the potential to reduce > severity and spread. Nothing is going to prevent all fires. I get that. > We're talking about risk mitigation when it comes to RS. > > As for "dependable string inverters," the one dependable feature is > failure at least once in the module lifetime, accompanied by a shocking > repair bill. > > I'm not a shiny object following kind of guy, but the writing is on the > wall. MLPE is the future. Modular, serviceable, disposable if you will. > Like it or not, Edison is going to lose this battle to Tesla (Tom vs > Nikola). And I live less than 5 minutes away from Tommy E's winter home in > Fort Myers, FL. And I "grew up" in the industry living off-grid in DC > power. But AC distribution wins for safety at various scales. > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 9:42 PM > wrote: > > Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires; it was originally drafted to allow > firefighters to vent a roof without being hindered by energized PV arrays. > This rule was expanded to include other DC wiring from PV sources. > > As for PV safety, I'd like to see some significant, statistical evidence > that shows there is a major fire danger from PV relative to other sources. > A fire from a solar array gets a lot more press than one from a gas leak, > bad wiring or an ash tray emptied into a wastepaper basket. > > Large public buildings should have all the protection that is available. > Does one size fit all? > > Would it be reasonable to allow residential installations under 12 kW, > with 1/4 of the roof adjacent to the array available for venting, to be > excepted from 690.12? What about sparsely occupied commercial buildings > with ample roof area open for ventilation? > > Many of us have chosen to work with renewable energy technology to lessen > the harms caused by fossil fuel extraction and combustion. The need for > non-carbon based energy sources has become extremely clear. > > The old string inverters still chug along year after year, with little or > no maintenance. Someone must pay for the ongoing maintenance of module > level electronics. Dependable string inverter systems should be allowed > unless statically significant danger can be demonstrated. > > Drake > --- > > > > On 2020-04-29 16:01, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I have been to several PV fires for string inverter systems, both > commercial and residential, and have seen many DC systems at serious risk > of fires or in various stages of melted insulation and connectors. Most of > these systems have exhibited good to excellent workmanship. Things just > went wrong. Some were traceable to animal damage, wind, or other > unmitigated factors, and some were unexplained. I disagree that there isn't > justification for rapid shutdown. > > In my opinion, what we need is some additional innovation and competition > in the MLPE space. Reliability is clearly a key factor, but there is no > denying that MLPE has added safety benefits among other benefits. And if > you do enough volume and set up your business for efficiency > (standardization of product offerings), MLPE isn't much more expensive. It > becomes a negligible cost relative to the benefit. The value proposition is > easy to convey. There are limits to this, but for the majority of > residential and small commercial installations, MLPE has become the de > facto standard around here. String inverters are dinos, and replacing 8-12 > year old transformer based inverters is many times more annoying than some > MLPE swaps. I will admit that the roofs around here are pretty easy to > walk, so that is a factor that might not apply to you. > > If you go under due to manufacturer product failures, you are not writing > your contracts right or not charging enough for service issues beyond your > control. I believe that's a red herring. You might suffer some reputation > damage, but for someone that has been installing MLPE for over a decade, > that is totally manageable. Consumers find a service call to replace MLPE a > LOT more palatable than a surprise inverter replacement that could cost > thousands of dollars. People just don't plan for that. > > Regarding rapid shutdown devices, I have also come across a few that > "someone" has bypassed around here. I don't know if they were never > installed properly or disabled/bypassed due to failure. It seemed > suspicious to me at the time. I remember that it made me wonder what good > is a rapid shutdown device if it is easily defeated? That's another > argument for MLPE. It has pretty failsafe MLPE functionality. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:59 AM > wrote: > > Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and reduces reliability. Given the > excellent safety record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being required, it > is unnecessary. The few anecdotal incidents of PV fires were not enough to > justify the requirement, especially on smaller systems. > > According to a friend who worked for a local installation company that > went under, a big part of the reason for their failure was the chronic > replacement of microinverters and optimizers. > > What steps can be taken to create some balance in the rapid shutdown > requirements that are in the NEC? > > > --- > > > > On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: > > So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It's added a lot of cost for > no measurable benefit. > Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it impossible > to test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door to tons of problems > when commissioning systems. > Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's product and have had an absurd > failure rate. Which means lots of truck rolls and troubleshooting and > system downtime. They send replacement product but they aren't paying for > the lost weeks of productivity. > We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding which project to try it on. > But our big concern about using it is not only the inability to confirm > open circuit voltage of the strings but also the way panels bypass if the > device doesn't allow the panel to connect properly. Both of these features > are a recipe for problems and potential troubleshooting nightmares. The > warranty from Tigo doesn't cover our expense if the product fails. And > that's really what our reservations about the product boil down to right > now. If we're on a job with 50 units and one fails, the contractor or the > homeowner will be the ones eating the expense of finding it and replacing > it. There has to be a better option. > > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > > On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > > Now that 690.12 of the *NEC* 2017 has been in effect for several years, I > am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated > requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering > microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS > principle, and as best I can determine the *Tigo* TS4-F device is one of > the simplest options currently available on the market. What are others > finding? > > I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown. > Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Y > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Thu May 7 12:54:16 2020 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 16:54:16 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: References: <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> <32026157-40F8-4E77-A590-96624B18E9BA@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello All OutBack does offer a RSD solutions. Please see the links below http://www.outbackpower.com/products/safety-compliance/rapid-shutdown-kits We also pair up with the FireRaptor RSD product http://www.outbackpower.com/products/safety-compliance/fireraptor-rapid-shutdown In addition the FM100 has onboard AFCI http://www.outbackpower.com/products/charge-controllers/flexmax-100-afci I hope this helps. Take Care All From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2020 11:34 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance Wrenches We are taking two very different issues and mixing them together. RSD and Arc-fault are different, arc fault will and does prevent fires, RSD was brought out of the need to vent a roof that even with the meter pulled have 500 volts and resulted shocks to fire fighters by cutting into roofs or nearby conduite. This is fact not conjecture. Arc fault is a fire preventer but requires nothing on the roof when using string level inverters. Now both RSD and arc-fault in off grid increase the complexity but the new charge controllers fit the arc and Tigo fixes the RSD issues. I know everyone of you learned to use a smart phone and can now adapt again to this new tech, we have to be leaders in this industry and not well you know. Jerry NABCEP PV Inspector. Been in this industry since 1978 On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 6:57 PM Jay > wrote: Hi Drake I will disagree, there have been many roof top fires. But regardless we have to do these new regulations and I for one welcome the safety. The main issue is accessing the faulty/suspect component under the module possibly requiring removing multiple modules, a slow and expensive process. My technique is to install the MLPE at the edges of the array, using wire extensions. That way at most I have to remove a single module. And Im working on a drop bracket which would allow better cooling and easier access without module removal to the MLPE, greatly reducing time to swap. Jay Peltz Power. On Apr 29, 2020, at 7:59 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote:  Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and reduces reliability. Given the excellent safety record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being required, it is unnecessary. The few anecdotal incidents of PV fires were not enough to justify the requirement, especially on smaller systems. According to a friend who worked for a local installation company that went under, a big part of the reason for their failure was the chronic replacement of microinverters and optimizers. What steps can be taken to create some balance in the rapid shutdown requirements that are in the NEC? --- On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It's added a lot of cost for no measurable benefit. Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it impossible to test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door to tons of problems when commissioning systems. Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's product and have had an absurd failure rate. Which means lots of truck rolls and troubleshooting and system downtime. They send replacement product but they aren't paying for the lost weeks of productivity. We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding which project to try it on. But our big concern about using it is not only the inability to confirm open circuit voltage of the strings but also the way panels bypass if the device doesn't allow the panel to connect properly. Both of these features are a recipe for problems and potential troubleshooting nightmares. The warranty from Tigo doesn't cover our expense if the product fails. And that's really what our reservations about the product boil down to right now. If we're on a job with 50 units and one fails, the contractor or the homeowner will be the ones eating the expense of finding it and replacing it. There has to be a better option. Sky Sims Https://EcologicalSystems.biz On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey Shalanski > wrote: Now that 690.12 of the NEC 2017 has been in effect for several years, I am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS principle, and as best I can determine the Tigo TS4-F device is one of the simplest options currently available on the market. What are others finding? I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown. Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu May 7 18:31:14 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 18:31:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Neutral Sizing 705.95 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We always specify a smaller neutral for Enphase IQ systems with 240V output where the feeder neutral is only used for the Envoy data monitor. I have never experienced a problem with an AHJ. However, this is not based on Article 705. It's based on 220.61. I just note why the neutral is downsized on the plans with the code reference. Technically it can go all the way down to #14 neutral to supply the 15A circuit for the Envoy data monitor, but we typically use #10 or the EGC size, whichever is larger. The circuit from a breaker in the main panel to an AC combiner load center is a feeder, so 220.61 applies. It also applies in the case of a supply-side connection from the fusible disconnect and then continuing on to an AC combining load center. If you are talking about a branch circuit to an inverter, that isn't a feeder, so that's probably going to be a different story. 705.95 could apply depending on what the neutral is needed for. If it's strictly for voltage sensing or data comm, that might work. Of course, if the PV AC Combiner has other loads, the feeder neutral needs to be sized to handle these loads as well. This can be the case where we are not using the Enphase IQ Combiner, but it's rare for us since we usually dedicate a load center for PV AC combining only and exclude all other loads. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 11:04 AM Al Frishman wrote: > Hey Wrenchers, > Wondering what you all think about NEC Article 705.95 and if downsizing > the Neutral is common practice. If your JHA accepts it and the model > inverter you are installing complies do you see any issues with downsizing > the Neutral? This section of code has been in place since 2011 and I must > admit I have been slow to adopt it. > > 705.95 Ampacity of Neutral Conductor. The ampacity of the neutral > conductors shall comply with either (A) or (B) > (A) Neutral Conductor for Single Phase, 2-Wire In- verter Output. If a > single-phase, 2-wire inverter output is connected to the neutral and one > ungrounded conductor (only) of a 3-wire system or of a 3-phase, 4-wire, > wye- connected system, the maximum load connected between the neutral and > any one ungrounded conductor plus the inverter output rating shall not > exceed the ampacity of the neutral conductor. > > (B) Neutral Conductor for Instrumentation, Voltage Detection or Phase > Detection. A conductor used solely for instrumentation, voltage > detection, or phase detection and connected to a single-phase or 3-phase > utility-interactive inverter, shall be permitted to be sized at less than > the ampacity of the other current-carrying conductors and shall be sized > equal to or larger than the equipment grounding conductor. > > *Al Frishman* > EvolvedSolar > (917) 699-6641 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu May 7 19:52:02 2020 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel at entech-engineering.com) Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 19:52:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: References: <5ADE39AD-6C89-4B04-986F-BEBB0A8C57D3@ecologicalsystems.biz> <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> <397a4a81b7f6d6c7d49761945fe86e45@redwoodalliance.org> <782ffb653cfa3127d25ade3ea7aba25f@redwoodalliance.org> <52a323f56e8f85faa40ffe6276873346@redwoodalliance.org> <3f82b821-5bf0-a0a6-1555-4ccfd267e77f@solarray.com> <7ba118f8-9764-da7f-b795-165422a4276b@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: I live in a small town, so our outreach probably has greater impact. We have gone to the FD meetings, we tell them about the system types and definitions, quiz them and follow up. So, I think depending upon training, which is not a one shot deal, it can have an impact. They seem relieved. On 2020-05-07 11:39, Brian Mehalic wrote: > I agree: utilize the formal process, ideally with a group of folks. If you are a SEIA member, get involved in their Codes and Standards process. The additional directory language you suggest is not likely to be valuable to many first responders without significant training and documentation, and even then is still likely to get "lost" amongst other labels and directories. RS as required now instead focuses on an initiation device(s), so that the device is all responders need to look for - it's up to the installer to specify and put in the correct gear to make RS happen, and the AHJ to verify this. > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional(tm) R031508-59 > National Electrical Code(R) CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > SEI Professional Services > http://www.seisolarpros.com [1] > > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 6:43 AM Christopher Warfel wrote: > > I believe Rapid Shutdown was mostly a solution looking for a problem. The only way I see this becoming "reasonable" is to present "grievances" to the Code Making Panel WITH a solution for their consideration. Based on experience from being part of an outreach program that taught approximately 10k firefighters over four years, I have asked that they add to the Directory, the language that states what type of solar electric system is on site (Microinverter, dc optimizer, string, multimode, grid isolated) so that First Responders don't have to guess. I realize this is different than MLPE, but it targets the person who Rapid Shutdown came into being for, and that was the First Responder. Chris > > On 5/6/2020 10:37 PM, Ray wrote: > > Spending more time on the roof, while putting more equipment and parts to meet MLPE, means more trips up the ladder, which increases, not decreases the #1 worker safety danger: Falls. Please correct me if I have somehow misunderstood this, but MLPE is not making installers safer based on OSHA information provided. Also after installation, which system is more likely to require workers to return to work on the roof, pulling up modules, trying to find problem equipment? More connections is More safe? Really? I haven't had to climb back up on the roof on any of my older, lower voltage off grid work in almost a decade. > > Once again, MLPE has its place, (larger systems, multiple subarrays, higher voltage) but we should have sensible exemptions as have been mentioned already. We are endangering ourselves and our employees needlessly, to comply with 690.12. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 5/6/20 8:41 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Interestingly enough, the data on the link [2] provided shows accidents from gas explosions, falls, health problems and industrial injuries. None of these incidents could have been prevented by module level power electronics. This is typical of the data that I've seen so far. > > --- > > On 2020-05-06 17:22, Martin Herzfeld wrote: > > There could be an issue of encouraging MLPE for worker safety? > > 1. This is data involving incidents with workers in the OSHA Fatalities and Catastrophe Investigation Summaries found here: > https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=solar&acc_keyword=&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=05&endday=05&endyear=2002&startmonth=05&startday=05&startyear=2021&InspNr= > > 2. In the past I've observed an arc fault at the module level with traditional string systems without a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter NEC/CEC 690.11. The function in NEC/CEC 690.12 would be - to reduce the shock hazard - for _emergency responders_ or _firefighters? (NEC 2020)._ However, I've observed thermal events in the panelboard with plans and workmanship issues. > > On the other hand, falls are the #1 reason for incidents in the construction industry. > > All the best, > > Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master Trainer (tm) for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037 > Contract Training Provider (CTP) > Adjunct Professor, Energy > > California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, D56, D31, C-7 - Since 2004 > Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation > > Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections > Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 > OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 > CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG > > * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors #7035507 - Since 2006 > * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training Provider > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:29 AM wrote: > > I would like to see real data on the fire risk of string inverters. Anecdotal problems are not data. > > The industry is definitely heading toward MLPE due to the rapid shutdown requirements. In many cases MLPE makes sense, in other cases it doesn't. > > Systems that are more cost effective and reliable can often be built by using string inverters. > --- > > On 2020-04-29 22:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > "Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires." > > Not true. If the effect of RS is to steer the market to MLPE, I believe it has a significant impact on reducing fire risk. As one who has watched a DC conductor fire smolder out of control, I am sold on an AC module or microinverter architecture. While RS on a DC array doesn't necessarily reduce fire risk within the array, it still has the potential to reduce severity and spread. Nothing is going to prevent all fires. I get that. We're talking about risk mitigation when it comes to RS. > > As for "dependable string inverters," the one dependable feature is failure at least once in the module lifetime, accompanied by a shocking repair bill. > > I'm not a shiny object following kind of guy, but the writing is on the wall. MLPE is the future. Modular, serviceable, disposable if you will. Like it or not, Edison is going to lose this battle to Tesla (Tom vs Nikola). And I live less than 5 minutes away from Tommy E's winter home in Fort Myers, FL. And I "grew up" in the industry living off-grid in DC power. But AC distribution wins for safety at various scales. > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 9:42 PM wrote: > > Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires; it was originally drafted to allow firefighters to vent a roof without being hindered by energized PV arrays. This rule was expanded to include other DC wiring from PV sources. > > As for PV safety, I'd like to see some significant, statistical evidence that shows there is a major fire danger from PV relative to other sources. A fire from a solar array gets a lot more press than one from a gas leak, bad wiring or an ash tray emptied into a wastepaper basket. > > Large public buildings should have all the protection that is available. Does one size fit all? > > Would it be reasonable to allow residential installations under 12 kW, with 1/4 of the roof adjacent to the array available for venting, to be excepted from 690.12? What about sparsely occupied commercial buildings with ample roof area open for ventilation? > > Many of us have chosen to work with renewable energy technology to lessen the harms caused by fossil fuel extraction and combustion. The need for non-carbon based energy sources has become extremely clear. > > The old string inverters still chug along year after year, with little or no maintenance. Someone must pay for the ongoing maintenance of module level electronics. Dependable string inverter systems should be allowed unless statically significant danger can be demonstrated. > > Drake > > --- > > On 2020-04-29 16:01, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I have been to several PV fires for string inverter systems, both commercial and residential, and have seen many DC systems at serious risk of fires or in various stages of melted insulation and connectors. Most of these systems have exhibited good to excellent workmanship. Things just went wrong. Some were traceable to animal damage, wind, or other unmitigated factors, and some were unexplained. I disagree that there isn't justification for rapid shutdown. > > In my opinion, what we need is some additional innovation and competition in the MLPE space. Reliability is clearly a key factor, but there is no denying that MLPE has added safety benefits among other benefits. And if you do enough volume and set up your business for efficiency (standardization of product offerings), MLPE isn't much more expensive. It becomes a negligible cost relative to the benefit. The value proposition is easy to convey. There are limits to this, but for the majority of residential and small commercial installations, MLPE has become the de facto standard around here. String inverters are dinos, and replacing 8-12 year old transformer based inverters is many times more annoying than some MLPE swaps. I will admit that the roofs around here are pretty easy to walk, so that is a factor that might not apply to you. > > If you go under due to manufacturer product failures, you are not writing your contracts right or not charging enough for service issues beyond your control. I believe that's a red herring. You might suffer some reputation damage, but for someone that has been installing MLPE for over a decade, that is totally manageable. Consumers find a service call to replace MLPE a LOT more palatable than a surprise inverter replacement that could cost thousands of dollars. People just don't plan for that. > > Regarding rapid shutdown devices, I have also come across a few that "someone" has bypassed around here. I don't know if they were never installed properly or disabled/bypassed due to failure. It seemed suspicious to me at the time. I remember that it made me wonder what good is a rapid shutdown device if it is easily defeated? That's another argument for MLPE. It has pretty failsafe MLPE functionality. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:59 AM wrote: > > Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and reduces reliability. Given the excellent safety record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being required, it is unnecessary. The few anecdotal incidents of PV fires were not enough to justify the requirement, especially on smaller systems. > > According to a friend who worked for a local installation company that went under, a big part of the reason for their failure was the chronic replacement of microinverters and optimizers. > > What steps can be taken to create some balance in the rapid shutdown requirements that are in the NEC? > > --- > > On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: > > So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It's added a lot of cost for no measurable benefit. > Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it impossible to test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door to tons of problems when commissioning systems. > Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's product and have had an absurd failure rate. Which means lots of truck rolls and troubleshooting and system downtime. They send replacement product but they aren't paying for the lost weeks of productivity. > We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding which project to try it on. But our big concern about using it is not only the inability to confirm open circuit voltage of the strings but also the way panels bypass if the device doesn't allow the panel to connect properly. Both of these features are a recipe for problems and potential troubleshooting nightmares. The warranty from Tigo doesn't cover our expense if the product fails. And that's really what our reservations about the product boil down to right now. If we're on a job with 50 units and one fails, the contractor or the homeowner will be the ones eating the expense of finding it and replacing it. There has to be a better option. > > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > > On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > > Now that 690.12 of the _NEC_ 2017 has been in effect for several years, I am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS principle, and as best I can determine the _Tigo_ TS4-F device is one of the simplest options currently available on the market. What are others finding? > > I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown. Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [3] > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [4] > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [5] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [6] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8] > > 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URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri May 8 11:56:00 2020 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 09:56:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3s firmware upgrade issues Message-ID: Esteemed Wrenches; Has anyone else experienced Optics RE connectivity issues upon updating the Mate 3s firmware to the latest March 2020 version? I updated a perfectly functioning system last week, and the Mate 3s lost LAN connectivity. I rebooted the internet gateway and router, rebooted the Mate 3s, re-flashed the Mate update, wouldn't allow me to revert to previous firmware version, still says "connecting..." Just curious if anyone else has seen this issue. The site is 4 hours away, so all I could do was set the Mate to reboot every 4 hours. Have not heard back from Outback yet on the support ticket. Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP PV Associate NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri May 8 12:01:34 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 09:01:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3s firmware upgrade issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dan: What version number is the firmware you are discussing? William Miller www.millersolar.com > On May 8, 2020, at 8:56 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > >  > Esteemed Wrenches; Has anyone else experienced Optics RE connectivity issues upon updating the Mate 3s firmware to the latest March 2020 version? > > I updated a perfectly functioning system last week, and the Mate 3s lost LAN connectivity. I rebooted the internet gateway and router, rebooted the Mate 3s, re-flashed the Mate update, wouldn't allow me to revert to previous firmware version, still says "connecting..." > > Just curious if anyone else has seen this issue. The site is 4 hours away, so all I could do was set the Mate to reboot every 4 hours. Have not heard back from Outback yet on the support ticket. > > Dan Fink > Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting > NABCEP PV Associate > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers > danbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri May 8 12:49:59 2020 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 10:49:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3s firmware upgrade issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Model Number: MATE3S Firmware version: 001.004.003 Dan Fink d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 10:34 AM William Miller wrote: > Dan: > > What version number is the firmware you are discussing? > > William Miller > www.millersolar.com > > On May 8, 2020, at 8:56 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > >  > Esteemed Wrenches; Has anyone else experienced Optics RE connectivity > issues upon updating the Mate 3s firmware to the latest March 2020 version? > > I updated a perfectly functioning system last week, and the Mate 3s lost > LAN connectivity. I rebooted the internet gateway and router, rebooted the > Mate 3s, re-flashed the Mate update, wouldn't allow me to revert to > previous firmware version, still says "connecting..." > > Just curious if anyone else has seen this issue. The site is 4 hours away, > so all I could do was set the Mate to reboot every 4 hours. Have not heard > back from Outback yet on the support ticket. > > Dan Fink > Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting > NABCEP PV Associate > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri May 8 12:58:19 2020 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 10:58:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3s firmware upgrade issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Huh, Outback just contacted me and says they will send a replacement unit. Whatever works! Dan Fink d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Sat May 9 01:04:02 2020 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 19:04:02 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarWorld warranty coverage Message-ID: Hi all, Can someone please remind me what, if any, is the warranty coverage of SW mods and from whom? Mahalo, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat May 9 12:29:25 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 09:29:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FM 100 aux relay Message-ID: <9E20C6B1-9637-4DC2-92D9-3A0A7A447BFF@gmail.com> Hi all, I’m wondering if anyone has used the aux relay in the fm-100 in diversion or SS diversion mode? Specifically using the AUX as a hydro diversion controller I’ve got someone telling me it doesn’t work, but I can’t test it or confirm/deny it. (Yes it’s very possible that they just didn’t program it correctly or they maybe really did find a firmware issue) Thanks in advance, Jay Peltz Power. From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Sun May 10 20:24:34 2020 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 18:24:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace Meter TM500 questions Message-ID: <83c1336c-f95a-548d-bd5f-750079a8d138@sindelarsolar.com> Esteemed Wrenches, graybeard (used here as a gender-neutral term) contingent: I am putting together a low-cost off grid upgrade package for my nearest neighbor out here, who has lived with a most basic system with little upgrade since the 80s. She needs a sinewave inverter to run a modern washing machine. I'm using good older equipment left over from other upgrades: an early narrow FX E-Panel, Outback VFX3524, ProStar 30, circuit breakers (!), etc. I have a 'Trace Meter Battery Monitoring System' that I'd like to include for her. It's basically a TriMetric variant that Trace purchased the rights to modify and private label from Ralph at Bogart Engineering about 15-20 years ago. I can easily find the installation and operations manual online. But unlike the TriMetric, Trace removed the terminal screw strip on the monitor PCB, replacing it with two RJ6 connectors and a plug-in phone cable. A matching connector was included with the meter that mounted to the kelvin terminals on the 500A/50mv shunt. I have a (believed to be) working monitor and a bunch of 6-pole RJ6 cables (they were also used to parallel DRs for 120/240, and maybe other tasks as well) but not the matching shunt board. Does anyone know, or can tell me how to determine, which RJ6 terminals are which? The TM2020 on which this meter was based had 4: G1, G2, SIG and +. Also, the monitor also has a second RJ6 terminal for serving as an on/off switch for (probably) the DR. Do you know which terminals are used for this remote switch function, and whether it could also serve as an on/off switch on the inverter by connecting to the remote switch terminals on the VFX (this works with a standard on/off switch in place of the Mate, so it oughtta also work with this switch function, no?). Thank you for any assistance you may provide. Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sun May 10 20:43:07 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 20:43:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace Meter TM500 questions In-Reply-To: <83c1336c-f95a-548d-bd5f-750079a8d138@sindelarsolar.com> References: <83c1336c-f95a-548d-bd5f-750079a8d138@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Hey Allan, I don't know about the wiring of the on/off switch - I'm not sure it is simple logic. I do believe it worked for the trace SW, not sure about the DR. I wouldn't recommend using the TM500 - I ran into a significant problem with it when used with an SW and a C40 back some 17 years ago, which eventually led me to stop using Xantrex equipment due to the either ignorance or withholding of info by their tech support about this issue. I remember talking to Ralph who said he had strongly recommended to Xantrex to not split his logic board the way they did, putting part of it onto the shunt, because he thought it might cause communication issues, which in my case it did. Long story which I believe I posted here many years ago, but it was a major pain. I have used TM500s many times successfully, although they seemed vulnerable to surge damage. I don't think I've heard any equipment conflicts with it and non-Xantrex equipment, I just have a visceral reaction to using them. Sorry for the diversion... Howie On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 8:25 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches, graybeard (used here as a gender-neutral term) > contingent: > > I am putting together a low-cost off grid upgrade package for my nearest > neighbor out here, who has lived with a most basic system with little > upgrade since the 80s. She needs a sinewave inverter to run a modern > washing machine. I'm using good older equipment left over from other > upgrades: an early narrow FX E-Panel, Outback VFX3524, ProStar 30, circuit > breakers (!), etc. > > I have a 'Trace Meter Battery Monitoring System' that I'd like to include > for her. It's basically a TriMetric variant that Trace purchased the rights > to modify and private label from Ralph at Bogart Engineering about 15-20 > years ago. I can easily find the installation and operations manual online. > But unlike the TriMetric, Trace removed the terminal screw strip on the > monitor PCB, replacing it with two RJ6 connectors and a plug-in phone > cable. A matching connector was included with the meter that mounted to the > kelvin terminals on the 500A/50mv shunt. > > I have a (believed to be) working monitor and a bunch of 6-pole RJ6 cables > (they were also used to parallel DRs for 120/240, and maybe other tasks as > well) but not the matching shunt board. Does anyone know, or can tell me > how to determine, which RJ6 terminals are which? The TM2020 on which this > meter was based had 4: G1, G2, SIG and +. Also, the monitor also has a > second RJ6 terminal for serving as an on/off switch for (probably) the DR. > Do you know which terminals are used for this remote switch function, and > whether it could also serve as an on/off switch on the inverter by > connecting to the remote switch terminals on the VFX (this works with a > standard on/off switch in place of the Mate, so it oughtta also work with > this switch function, no?). > > Thank you for any assistance you may provide. > > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Sun May 10 20:48:11 2020 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 17:48:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace Meter TM500 questions In-Reply-To: <83c1336c-f95a-548d-bd5f-750079a8d138@sindelarsolar.com> References: <83c1336c-f95a-548d-bd5f-750079a8d138@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Hope this helps Allan Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ *Become a Certified PV Professional. Register for* *NABCEP CEC 2020* *using promo code* *20RBE* ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 5:25 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches, graybeard (used here as a gender-neutral term) > contingent: > > I am putting together a low-cost off grid upgrade package for my nearest > neighbor out here, who has lived with a most basic system with little > upgrade since the 80s. She needs a sinewave inverter to run a modern > washing machine. I'm using good older equipment left over from other > upgrades: an early narrow FX E-Panel, Outback VFX3524, ProStar 30, circuit > breakers (!), etc. > > I have a 'Trace Meter Battery Monitoring System' that I'd like to include > for her. It's basically a TriMetric variant that Trace purchased the rights > to modify and private label from Ralph at Bogart Engineering about 15-20 > years ago. I can easily find the installation and operations manual online. > But unlike the TriMetric, Trace removed the terminal screw strip on the > monitor PCB, replacing it with two RJ6 connectors and a plug-in phone > cable. A matching connector was included with the meter that mounted to the > kelvin terminals on the 500A/50mv shunt. > > I have a (believed to be) working monitor and a bunch of 6-pole RJ6 cables > (they were also used to parallel DRs for 120/240, and maybe other tasks as > well) but not the matching shunt board. Does anyone know, or can tell me > how to determine, which RJ6 terminals are which? The TM2020 on which this > meter was based had 4: G1, G2, SIG and +. Also, the monitor also has a > second RJ6 terminal for serving as an on/off switch for (probably) the DR. > Do you know which terminals are used for this remote switch function, and > whether it could also serve as an on/off switch on the inverter by > connecting to the remote switch terminals on the VFX (this works with a > standard on/off switch in place of the Mate, so it oughtta also work with > this switch function, no?). > > Thank you for any assistance you may provide. > > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Remote cables.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 263119 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon May 11 10:31:41 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 07:31:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace Meter TM500 questions In-Reply-To: References: <83c1336c-f95a-548d-bd5f-750079a8d138@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Steve, You have always been so helpful over the decades to my business. I realize this is not for you but Allan. I am sure someone will give specifics on getting this to work. I would only add that most all of these Soc battery monitors used in lead acid have been nothing but a source of problems. Even if they get the calibration at commissioning, they rarely get the recalibration they need to be useful. They are battery killers and I stopped using them. I teach the user on how to read voltage, note the load, and make a judgement on "when" to recharge. It is not that hard. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 10 May 2020 17:48:11 -0700, Steve Higgins wrote: Hope this helps Allan Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com [4] ------------------------- BECOME A CERTIFIED PV PROFESSIONAL. REGISTER FOR NABCEP CEC 2020 [10] USING PROMO CODE 20RBE [11] ------------------------- CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------- On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 5:25 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: Esteemed Wrenches, graybeard (used here as a gender-neutral term) contingent: I am putting together a low-cost off grid upgrade package for my nearest neighbor out here, who has lived with a most basic system with little upgrade since the 80s. She needs a sinewave inverter to run a modern washing machine. I'm using good older equipment left over from other upgrades: an early narrow FX E-Panel, Outback VFX3524, ProStar 30, circuit breakers (!), etc. I have a 'Trace Meter Battery Monitoring System' that I'd like to include for her. It's basically a TriMetric variant that Trace purchased the rights to modify and private label from Ralph at Bogart Engineering about 15-20 years ago. I can easily find the installation and operations manual online. But unlike the TriMetric, Trace removed the terminal screw strip on the monitor PCB, replacing it with two RJ6 connectors and a plug-in phone cable. A matching connector was included with the meter that mounted to the kelvin terminals on the 500A/50mv shunt. I have a (believed to be) working monitor and a bunch of 6-pole RJ6 cables (they were also used to parallel DRs for 120/240, and maybe other tasks as well) but not the matching shunt board. Does anyone know, or can tell me how to determine, which RJ6 terminals are which? The TM2020 on which this meter was based had 4: G1, G2, SIG and +. Also, the monitor also has a second RJ6 terminal for serving as an on/off switch for (probably) the DR. Do you know which terminals are used for this remote switch function, and whether it could also serve as an on/off switch on the inverter by connecting to the remote switch terminals on the VFX (this works with a standard on/off switch in place of the Mate, so it oughtta also work with this switch function, no?). Thank you for any assistance you may provide. Allan -- ALLAN SINDELAR allan at sindelarsolar.com [13] NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 CELL _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [16] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [17] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [18] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.rollsbattery.com [4] mailto:steve at surrette.com [5] http://www.facebook.com/RollsBattery [6] http://www.twitter.com/RollsBattery [7] https://www.youtube.com/user/RollsBattery [8] https://www.linkedin.com/company/rolls-battery-engineering [9] http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery [10] http://rollsbattery.com/nabcep2020 [11] http://rollsbattery.com/nabcep2020 [12] mailto:Allan at sindelarsolar.com [13] mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com [14] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [17] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [18] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Remote cables.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 263119 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon May 11 13:27:06 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 10:27:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace Meter TM500 questions In-Reply-To: References: <83c1336c-f95a-548d-bd5f-750079a8d138@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <3169E4AC-955E-4176-BBD6-A10A4FCEEFCC@gmail.com> HI Howie, That would have been the PS inverter, not the SW that had the RC8 remote control. But I agree with you on the reliability of the TM500. I’ve taken out many that have failed or worse have been random in % readings. I’ve replaced them with Trimetrics. So I don’t recommend the TM500. As to Allans question about the TM500 working to turn on/off the inverter, I”m leaning not but its possible that its just a dry contact in the workings of that unit. It will be in an interesting test. jay peltz power > On May 10, 2020, at 5:43 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > > Hey Allan, > I don't know about the wiring of the on/off switch - I'm not sure it is simple logic. I do believe it worked for the trace SW, not sure about the DR. > I wouldn't recommend using the TM500 - I ran into a significant problem with it when used with an SW and a C40 back some 17 years ago, which eventually led me to stop using Xantrex equipment due to the either ignorance or withholding of info by their tech support about this issue. I remember talking to Ralph who said he had strongly recommended to Xantrex to not split his logic board the way they did, putting part of it onto the shunt, because he thought it might cause communication issues, which in my case it did. Long story which I believe I posted here many years ago, but it was a major pain. I have used TM500s many times successfully, although they seemed vulnerable to surge damage. I don't think I've heard any equipment conflicts with it and non-Xantrex equipment, I just have a visceral reaction to using them. Sorry for the diversion... > Howie > > On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 8:25 PM Sindelar Solar > wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches, graybeard (used here as a gender-neutral term) contingent: > > I am putting together a low-cost off grid upgrade package for my nearest neighbor out here, who has lived with a most basic system with little upgrade since the 80s. She needs a sinewave inverter to run a modern washing machine. I'm using good older equipment left over from other upgrades: an early narrow FX E-Panel, Outback VFX3524, ProStar 30, circuit breakers (!), etc. > > I have a 'Trace Meter Battery Monitoring System' that I'd like to include for her. It's basically a TriMetric variant that Trace purchased the rights to modify and private label from Ralph at Bogart Engineering about 15-20 years ago. I can easily find the installation and operations manual online. But unlike the TriMetric, Trace removed the terminal screw strip on the monitor PCB, replacing it with two RJ6 connectors and a plug-in phone cable. A matching connector was included with the meter that mounted to the kelvin terminals on the 500A/50mv shunt. > > I have a (believed to be) working monitor and a bunch of 6-pole RJ6 cables (they were also used to parallel DRs for 120/240, and maybe other tasks as well) but not the matching shunt board. Does anyone know, or can tell me how to determine, which RJ6 terminals are which? The TM2020 on which this meter was based had 4: G1, G2, SIG and +. Also, the monitor also has a second RJ6 terminal for serving as an on/off switch for (probably) the DR. Do you know which terminals are used for this remote switch function, and whether it could also serve as an on/off switch on the inverter by connecting to the remote switch terminals on the VFX (this works with a standard on/off switch in place of the Mate, so it oughtta also work with this switch function, no?). > > Thank you for any assistance you may provide. > > Allan > > -- > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From findsolar at herzfeld.org Mon May 11 16:04:58 2020 From: findsolar at herzfeld.org (Martin Herzfeld) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 13:04:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: <52a323f56e8f85faa40ffe6276873346@redwoodalliance.org> References: <5ADE39AD-6C89-4B04-986F-BEBB0A8C57D3@ecologicalsystems.biz> <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> <397a4a81b7f6d6c7d49761945fe86e45@redwoodalliance.org> <782ffb653cfa3127d25ade3ea7aba25f@redwoodalliance.org> <52a323f56e8f85faa40ffe6276873346@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Drake, I concur with your approach on this item - 1. Either the shock hazard was reduced by NEC 690.12 with MLPE for the workers *too* or folks have been qualified persons in accordance with NEC 690.4(C) to recognize and avoid the shock hazard for string inverters. 2. Specifically, there's this incident on the list found here: https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/accidentsearch.accident_detail?id=101927.015 In other words, would this incident have been minimized with the use of MLPE? On Wed, May 6, 2020, 5:41 PM wrote: > Interestingly enough, the data on the link > provided > shows accidents from gas explosions, falls, health problems and industrial > injuries. None of these incidents could have been prevented by module level > power electronics. This is typical of the data that I've seen so far. > --- > > > > On 2020-05-06 17:22, Martin Herzfeld wrote: > > There could be an issue of encouraging MLPE for worker safety? > > 1. This is data involving incidents with workers in the OSHA Fatalities > and Catastrophe Investigation Summaries found here: > > https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=solar&acc_keyword=&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=05&endday=05&endyear=2002&startmonth=05&startday=05&startyear=2021&InspNr= > > 2. In the past I've observed an arc fault at the module level with > traditional string systems without a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter > NEC/CEC 690.11. The function in NEC/CEC 690.12 would be - to *reduce the > shock hazard *- for *emergency responders* or *firefighters? (NEC 2020).* > However, I've observed thermal events in the panelboard with plans and > workmanship issues. > > On the other hand, falls are the #1 reason for incidents in the > construction industry. > > All the best, > > Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified > Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC > 10037 > Contract Training Provider (CTP) > Adjunct Professor, Energy > > California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, > D56, D31, C-7 - Since 2004 > Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, > Instrumentation > > Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections > Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 > OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 > CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG > > * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors > #7035507 - Since 2006 > * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy > Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training Provider > > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:29 AM > wrote: > > > I would like to see real data on the fire risk of string inverters. > Anecdotal problems are not data. > > The industry is definitely heading toward MLPE due to the rapid shutdown > requirements. In many cases MLPE makes sense, in other cases it doesn't. > > Systems that are more cost effective and reliable can often be built by > using string inverters. > --- > > > > > On 2020-04-29 22:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > "Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires." > > Not true. If the effect of RS is to steer the market to MLPE, I believe it > has a significant impact on reducing fire risk. As one who has watched a DC > conductor fire smolder out of control, I am sold on an AC module or > microinverter architecture. While RS on a DC array doesn't necessarily > reduce fire risk within the array, it still has the potential to reduce > severity and spread. Nothing is going to prevent all fires. I get that. > We're talking about risk mitigation when it comes to RS. > > As for "dependable string inverters," the one dependable feature is > failure at least once in the module lifetime, accompanied by a shocking > repair bill. > > I'm not a shiny object following kind of guy, but the writing is on the > wall. MLPE is the future. Modular, serviceable, disposable if you will. > Like it or not, Edison is going to lose this battle to Tesla (Tom vs > Nikola). And I live less than 5 minutes away from Tommy E's winter home in > Fort Myers, FL. And I "grew up" in the industry living off-grid in DC > power. But AC distribution wins for safety at various scales. > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 9:42 PM > wrote: > > Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires; it was originally drafted to allow > firefighters to vent a roof without being hindered by energized PV arrays. > This rule was expanded to include other DC wiring from PV sources. > > As for PV safety, I'd like to see some significant, statistical evidence > that shows there is a major fire danger from PV relative to other sources. > A fire from a solar array gets a lot more press than one from a gas leak, > bad wiring or an ash tray emptied into a wastepaper basket. > > Large public buildings should have all the protection that is available. > Does one size fit all? > > Would it be reasonable to allow residential installations under 12 kW, > with 1/4 of the roof adjacent to the array available for venting, to be > excepted from 690.12? What about sparsely occupied commercial buildings > with ample roof area open for ventilation? > > Many of us have chosen to work with renewable energy technology to lessen > the harms caused by fossil fuel extraction and combustion. The need for > non-carbon based energy sources has become extremely clear. > > The old string inverters still chug along year after year, with little or > no maintenance. Someone must pay for the ongoing maintenance of module > level electronics. Dependable string inverter systems should be allowed > unless statically significant danger can be demonstrated. > > Drake > --- > > > > On 2020-04-29 16:01, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I have been to several PV fires for string inverter systems, both > commercial and residential, and have seen many DC systems at serious risk > of fires or in various stages of melted insulation and connectors. Most of > these systems have exhibited good to excellent workmanship. Things just > went wrong. Some were traceable to animal damage, wind, or other > unmitigated factors, and some were unexplained. I disagree that there isn't > justification for rapid shutdown. > > In my opinion, what we need is some additional innovation and competition > in the MLPE space. Reliability is clearly a key factor, but there is no > denying that MLPE has added safety benefits among other benefits. And if > you do enough volume and set up your business for efficiency > (standardization of product offerings), MLPE isn't much more expensive. It > becomes a negligible cost relative to the benefit. The value proposition is > easy to convey. There are limits to this, but for the majority of > residential and small commercial installations, MLPE has become the de > facto standard around here. String inverters are dinos, and replacing 8-12 > year old transformer based inverters is many times more annoying than some > MLPE swaps. I will admit that the roofs around here are pretty easy to > walk, so that is a factor that might not apply to you. > > If you go under due to manufacturer product failures, you are not writing > your contracts right or not charging enough for service issues beyond your > control. I believe that's a red herring. You might suffer some reputation > damage, but for someone that has been installing MLPE for over a decade, > that is totally manageable. Consumers find a service call to replace MLPE a > LOT more palatable than a surprise inverter replacement that could cost > thousands of dollars. People just don't plan for that. > > Regarding rapid shutdown devices, I have also come across a few that > "someone" has bypassed around here. I don't know if they were never > installed properly or disabled/bypassed due to failure. It seemed > suspicious to me at the time. I remember that it made me wonder what good > is a rapid shutdown device if it is easily defeated? That's another > argument for MLPE. It has pretty failsafe MLPE functionality. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:59 AM > wrote: > > Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and reduces reliability. Given the > excellent safety record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being required, it > is unnecessary. The few anecdotal incidents of PV fires were not enough to > justify the requirement, especially on smaller systems. > > According to a friend who worked for a local installation company that > went under, a big part of the reason for their failure was the chronic > replacement of microinverters and optimizers. > > What steps can be taken to create some balance in the rapid shutdown > requirements that are in the NEC? > > > --- > > > > On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: > > So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It's added a lot of cost for > no measurable benefit. > Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it impossible > to test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door to tons of problems > when commissioning systems. > Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's product and have had an absurd > failure rate. Which means lots of truck rolls and troubleshooting and > system downtime. They send replacement product but they aren't paying for > the lost weeks of productivity. > We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding which project to try it on. > But our big concern about using it is not only the inability to confirm > open circuit voltage of the strings but also the way panels bypass if the > device doesn't allow the panel to connect properly. Both of these features > are a recipe for problems and potential troubleshooting nightmares. The > warranty from Tigo doesn't cover our expense if the product fails. And > that's really what our reservations about the product boil down to right > now. If we're on a job with 50 units and one fails, the contractor or the > homeowner will be the ones eating the expense of finding it and replacing > it. There has to be a better option. > > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > > On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > > Now that 690.12 of the *NEC* 2017 has been in effect for several years, I > am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated > requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering > microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS > principle, and as best I can determine the *Tigo* TS4-F device is one of > the simplest options currently available on the market. What are others > finding? > > I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown. > Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Y > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon May 11 17:50:23 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 14:50:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback battery box shelve height dimensions. Message-ID: HI All, I’m wondering if anyone has a outback battery box that they can measure the actual height dimensions of one shelve. IE how tall can a battery be and still fit in there. I can’t find those dimensions on the spec sheets, tech support is wait forever, so maybe someone has one they can measure? thanks jay peltz power From bbassett2 at gmail.com Mon May 11 19:26:01 2020 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 16:26:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback battery box shelve height dimensions. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay, I don't have one to measure, but according to OB the NSB190FT BLUE+ battery fits at 12.6" tall and the NSB210FT BLUE+ battery at 12.9" tall does not. Brad On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 3:42 PM jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’m wondering if anyone has a outback battery box that they can measure > the actual height dimensions of one shelve. > IE how tall can a battery be and still fit in there. > > I can’t find those dimensions on the spec sheets, tech support is wait > forever, so maybe someone has one they can measure? > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon May 11 18:59:27 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 15:59:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback battery box shelve height dimensions. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay: I don’t have access to the unit but here is a caution: the spec sheet was wrong at one point on the overall dimensions. The dimensions were greater than published. I had to hire a concrete cutter to fit the box in once it arrived. This may be corrected by now. I could not tell you. William Miller www.millersolar.com > On May 11, 2020, at 3:24 PM, jay wrote: > > HI All, > > I’m wondering if anyone has a outback battery box that they can measure the actual height dimensions of one shelve. > IE how tall can a battery be and still fit in there. > > I can’t find those dimensions on the spec sheets, tech support is wait forever, so maybe someone has one they can measure? > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue May 12 18:53:36 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 18:53:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance In-Reply-To: References: <5ADE39AD-6C89-4B04-986F-BEBB0A8C57D3@ecologicalsystems.biz> <998baf393ede7d370a28b0fc76d99ce8@redwoodalliance.org> <397a4a81b7f6d6c7d49761945fe86e45@redwoodalliance.org> <782ffb653cfa3127d25ade3ea7aba25f@redwoodalliance.org> <52a323f56e8f85faa40ffe6276873346@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <6047a0acec38c31ea92fd6c9165a1222@redwoodalliance.org> Martin, Micro inverters are the safest. Opening a string under load is dangerous. Having qualified personnel servicing the equipment is essential. My point is that an isolated incident is not statistical data. All technologies have their hazards. The number of electricians injured by various causes is significant. From the data I've seen, the number injured by DC power on PV systems is very small compared to the number injured by arc flashes from high voltage electrical panels, falls and other causes. A typical residence in the U.S. has a 240 VAC wire connected to the house that cannot be turned off by the homeowner or the fire department. With a 10,000 Amp surge from the transformer, it can arc at 2,400,000 W! A 12 kW PV system could produce ½ of 1% of that amount of power at full STC production. Sometimes this utility feed is run in Service Entrance Cable, which is code-compliant. No conduit is required. The potential hazards of these systems are orders of magnitude greater than those of current limited strings of PV modules. Someone must bear the expense of MLPE replacements. We are in a worldwide carbon crisis now. I believe that making PV as easy, reliable and inexpensive as possible is of paramount importance. If dangers can be demonstrated that are out of proportion to other common technologies, then steps should be taken. So far, this does not appear to be the case. Drake --- On 2020-05-11 16:04, Martin Herzfeld wrote: > Drake, I concur with your approach on this item - > > 1. Either the shock hazard was reduced by NEC 690.12 with MLPE for the workers too or folks have been qualified persons in accordance with NEC 690.4(C) to recognize and avoid the shock hazard for string inverters. > > 2. Specifically, there's this incident on the list found here: https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/accidentsearch.accident_detail?id=101927.015 In other words, would this incident have been minimized with the use of MLPE? > > On Wed, May 6, 2020, 5:41 PM wrote: > > Interestingly enough, the data on the link [1] provided shows accidents from gas explosions, falls, health problems and industrial injuries. None of these incidents could have been prevented by module level power electronics. This is typical of the data that I've seen so far. > > --- > > On 2020-05-06 17:22, Martin Herzfeld wrote: > > There could be an issue of encouraging MLPE for worker safety? > > 1. This is data involving incidents with workers in the OSHA Fatalities and Catastrophe Investigation Summaries found here: > https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=solar&acc_keyword=&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=05&endday=05&endyear=2002&startmonth=05&startday=05&startyear=2021&InspNr= > > 2. In the past I've observed an arc fault at the module level with traditional string systems without a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter NEC/CEC 690.11. The function in NEC/CEC 690.12 would be - to reduce the shock hazard - for _emergency responders_ or _firefighters? (NEC 2020)._ However, I've observed thermal events in the panelboard with plans and workmanship issues. > > On the other hand, falls are the #1 reason for incidents in the construction industry. > > All the best, > > Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master Trainer (tm) for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037 > Contract Training Provider (CTP) > Adjunct Professor, Energy > > California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, D56, D31, C-7 - Since 2004 > Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation > > Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections > Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 > OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 > CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG > > * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors #7035507 - Since 2006 > * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training Provider > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:29 AM wrote: > > I would like to see real data on the fire risk of string inverters. Anecdotal problems are not data. > > The industry is definitely heading toward MLPE due to the rapid shutdown requirements. In many cases MLPE makes sense, in other cases it doesn't. > > Systems that are more cost effective and reliable can often be built by using string inverters. > --- > > On 2020-04-29 22:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > "Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires." > > Not true. If the effect of RS is to steer the market to MLPE, I believe it has a significant impact on reducing fire risk. As one who has watched a DC conductor fire smolder out of control, I am sold on an AC module or microinverter architecture. While RS on a DC array doesn't necessarily reduce fire risk within the array, it still has the potential to reduce severity and spread. Nothing is going to prevent all fires. I get that. We're talking about risk mitigation when it comes to RS. > > As for "dependable string inverters," the one dependable feature is failure at least once in the module lifetime, accompanied by a shocking repair bill. > > I'm not a shiny object following kind of guy, but the writing is on the wall. MLPE is the future. Modular, serviceable, disposable if you will. Like it or not, Edison is going to lose this battle to Tesla (Tom vs Nikola). And I live less than 5 minutes away from Tommy E's winter home in Fort Myers, FL. And I "grew up" in the industry living off-grid in DC power. But AC distribution wins for safety at various scales. > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 9:42 PM wrote: > > Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires; it was originally drafted to allow firefighters to vent a roof without being hindered by energized PV arrays. This rule was expanded to include other DC wiring from PV sources. > > As for PV safety, I'd like to see some significant, statistical evidence that shows there is a major fire danger from PV relative to other sources. A fire from a solar array gets a lot more press than one from a gas leak, bad wiring or an ash tray emptied into a wastepaper basket. > > Large public buildings should have all the protection that is available. Does one size fit all? > > Would it be reasonable to allow residential installations under 12 kW, with 1/4 of the roof adjacent to the array available for venting, to be excepted from 690.12? What about sparsely occupied commercial buildings with ample roof area open for ventilation? > > Many of us have chosen to work with renewable energy technology to lessen the harms caused by fossil fuel extraction and combustion. The need for non-carbon based energy sources has become extremely clear. > > The old string inverters still chug along year after year, with little or no maintenance. Someone must pay for the ongoing maintenance of module level electronics. Dependable string inverter systems should be allowed unless statically significant danger can be demonstrated. > > Drake > > --- > > On 2020-04-29 16:01, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I have been to several PV fires for string inverter systems, both commercial and residential, and have seen many DC systems at serious risk of fires or in various stages of melted insulation and connectors. Most of these systems have exhibited good to excellent workmanship. Things just went wrong. Some were traceable to animal damage, wind, or other unmitigated factors, and some were unexplained. I disagree that there isn't justification for rapid shutdown. > > In my opinion, what we need is some additional innovation and competition in the MLPE space. Reliability is clearly a key factor, but there is no denying that MLPE has added safety benefits among other benefits. And if you do enough volume and set up your business for efficiency (standardization of product offerings), MLPE isn't much more expensive. It becomes a negligible cost relative to the benefit. The value proposition is easy to convey. There are limits to this, but for the majority of residential and small commercial installations, MLPE has become the de facto standard around here. String inverters are dinos, and replacing 8-12 year old transformer based inverters is many times more annoying than some MLPE swaps. I will admit that the roofs around here are pretty easy to walk, so that is a factor that might not apply to you. > > If you go under due to manufacturer product failures, you are not writing your contracts right or not charging enough for service issues beyond your control. I believe that's a red herring. You might suffer some reputation damage, but for someone that has been installing MLPE for over a decade, that is totally manageable. Consumers find a service call to replace MLPE a LOT more palatable than a surprise inverter replacement that could cost thousands of dollars. People just don't plan for that. > > Regarding rapid shutdown devices, I have also come across a few that "someone" has bypassed around here. I don't know if they were never installed properly or disabled/bypassed due to failure. It seemed suspicious to me at the time. I remember that it made me wonder what good is a rapid shutdown device if it is easily defeated? That's another argument for MLPE. It has pretty failsafe MLPE functionality. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:59 AM wrote: > > Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and reduces reliability. Given the excellent safety record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being required, it is unnecessary. The few anecdotal incidents of PV fires were not enough to justify the requirement, especially on smaller systems. > > According to a friend who worked for a local installation company that went under, a big part of the reason for their failure was the chronic replacement of microinverters and optimizers. > > What steps can be taken to create some balance in the rapid shutdown requirements that are in the NEC? > > --- > > On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: > > So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It's added a lot of cost for no measurable benefit. > Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it impossible to test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door to tons of problems when commissioning systems. > Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's product and have had an absurd failure rate. Which means lots of truck rolls and troubleshooting and system downtime. They send replacement product but they aren't paying for the lost weeks of productivity. > We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding which project to try it on. But our big concern about using it is not only the inability to confirm open circuit voltage of the strings but also the way panels bypass if the device doesn't allow the panel to connect properly. Both of these features are a recipe for problems and potential troubleshooting nightmares. The warranty from Tigo doesn't cover our expense if the product fails. And that's really what our reservations about the product boil down to right now. If we're on a job with 50 units and one fails, the contractor or the homeowner will be the ones eating the expense of finding it and replacing it. There has to be a better option. > > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > > On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > > Now that 690.12 of the _NEC_ 2017 has been in effect for several years, I am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS principle, and as best I can determine the _Tigo_ TS4-F device is one of the simplest options currently available on the market. What are others finding? > > I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown. Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [2] > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [3] > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [4] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [5] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] > > 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URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Wed May 13 21:22:07 2020 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 20:22:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Site Groundskeeping Message-ID: This is not so much a "wrench" question--more like a "lawnmower" question... For anyone involved with large-scale ground mount systems, I am curious about the various methods being used to control vegetation. My sense has been that O&M service providers generally gravitate toward gas mowers/trimmers with spot application of chemical herbicides. Does anyone have any experience with alternative methods, such as specialized seeding (e.g. pollinator-friendly), groundcover plants, goat herds, maybe even robotic GPS-guided mowers? I'm especially interested to hear from anyone who has analyzed the pros/cons of different methods or who can speak to any approaches that might be site-specific. -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed May 13 21:28:46 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 18:28:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Site Groundskeeping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <908DA13C-011C-4F01-A074-CA5798C79397@gmail.com> Have you thought of sheep? Goats can be tough as they like to eat wire and climb on the panels. But if the modules are off the ground high enough might work. Jay Peltz power. > On May 13, 2020, at 6:22 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > >  > This is not so much a "wrench" question--more like a "lawnmower" question... > > For anyone involved with large-scale ground mount systems, I am curious about the various methods being used to control vegetation. My sense has been that O&M service providers generally gravitate toward gas mowers/trimmers with spot application of chemical herbicides. Does anyone have any experience with alternative methods, such as specialized seeding (e.g. pollinator-friendly), groundcover plants, goat herds, maybe even robotic GPS-guided mowers? I'm especially interested to hear from anyone who has analyzed the pros/cons of different methods or who can speak to any approaches that might be site-specific. > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From ray at solarray.com Wed May 13 23:07:18 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 23:07:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Site Groundskeeping In-Reply-To: <908DA13C-011C-4F01-A074-CA5798C79397@gmail.com> References: <908DA13C-011C-4F01-A074-CA5798C79397@gmail.com> Message-ID: <864a14e7-cd0c-ba31-4b09-9bc08a3eca4d@solarray.com> Goats are definitely off, I found they ate everything except what you wanted them to.  Very cute though.  The low profile "Robo mower" idea has merit. The best I've seen was a wild flower seed mix, that all grew only a couple of feet high max.  They probably needed some weed wacking a few times a year, but much less than grass.  Totally depends on the location.  On the wet side of Maui, you would have the array disappear into the jungle in 6 months, never to be seen again.  In the desert, it might be sage brush after 10 years. I worked on a project once that used 4" deep gravel spread over 160 acres.  Total disaster in my opinion; think how many cubic yards had to be trucked in.  Vehicles got stuck in the loose gravel, it slowed everyone down, and 3 ft high weeds were growing up out of it in 6 weeks.  Then when you went to weed wack, you had gravel projectiles sent flying into the glass. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/13/20 9:28 PM, Jay wrote: > Have you thought of sheep? > > Goats can be tough as they like to eat wire and climb on the panels. But if the modules are off the ground high enough might work. > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > >> On May 13, 2020, at 6:22 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: >> >>  >> This is not so much a "wrench" question--more like a "lawnmower" question... >> >> For anyone involved with large-scale ground mount systems, I am curious about the various methods being used to control vegetation. My sense has been that O&M service providers generally gravitate toward gas mowers/trimmers with spot application of chemical herbicides. Does anyone have any experience with alternative methods, such as specialized seeding (e.g. pollinator-friendly), groundcover plants, goat herds, maybe even robotic GPS-guided mowers? I'm especially interested to hear from anyone who has analyzed the pros/cons of different methods or who can speak to any approaches that might be site-specific. >> >> -- >> Corey Shalanski >> Jah Light Solar >> Portland, Jamaica >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From marco at pvthawaii.com Wed May 13 22:13:29 2020 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 16:13:29 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Rapid Shut Down Message-ID: <02b201d62995$43d02a30$cb707e90$@com> Aloha all, I'm in need of two of these, please. https://files.sma.de/dl/27991/RSDBOX-DUS172426W.pdf If someone out there has one or two, please contact me off-list. marco at pvthawaii.com mahalo, marco --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Thu May 14 07:32:17 2020 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 11:32:17 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Site Groundskeeping In-Reply-To: <864a14e7-cd0c-ba31-4b09-9bc08a3eca4d@solarray.com> References: <908DA13C-011C-4F01-A074-CA5798C79397@gmail.com>, <864a14e7-cd0c-ba31-4b09-9bc08a3eca4d@solarray.com> Message-ID: We used a state approved low grow seed mix in NJ. Some info on seed mixes from NREL. https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy17osti/66218.pdf Best regards, Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Ray Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 11:07:18 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Site Groundskeeping Goats are definitely off, I found they ate everything except what you wanted them to. Very cute though. The low profile "Robo mower" idea has merit. The best I've seen was a wild flower seed mix, that all grew only a couple of feet high max. They probably needed some weed wacking a few times a year, but much less than grass. Totally depends on the location. On the wet side of Maui, you would have the array disappear into the jungle in 6 months, never to be seen again. In the desert, it might be sage brush after 10 years. I worked on a project once that used 4" deep gravel spread over 160 acres. Total disaster in my opinion; think how many cubic yards had to be trucked in. Vehicles got stuck in the loose gravel, it slowed everyone down, and 3 ft high weeds were growing up out of it in 6 weeks. Then when you went to weed wack, you had gravel projectiles sent flying into the glass. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/13/20 9:28 PM, Jay wrote: > Have you thought of sheep? > > Goats can be tough as they like to eat wire and climb on the panels. But if the modules are off the ground high enough might work. > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > >> On May 13, 2020, at 6:22 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: >> >>  >> This is not so much a "wrench" question--more like a "lawnmower" question... >> >> For anyone involved with large-scale ground mount systems, I am curious about the various methods being used to control vegetation. My sense has been that O&M service providers generally gravitate toward gas mowers/trimmers with spot application of chemical herbicides. Does anyone have any experience with alternative methods, such as specialized seeding (e.g. pollinator-friendly), groundcover plants, goat herds, maybe even robotic GPS-guided mowers? I'm especially interested to hear from anyone who has analyzed the pros/cons of different methods or who can speak to any approaches that might be site-specific. >> >> -- >> Corey Shalanski >> Jah Light Solar >> Portland, Jamaica >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Thu May 14 08:54:01 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 08:54:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] handheld irradiance meter Message-ID: Hello, Any recommendations on your favorite handheld pyranometer/irradiance meter? Preferably with the sensor on the front of the meter instead of the top? Thanks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu May 14 10:20:25 2020 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 10:20:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Site Groundskeeping In-Reply-To: References: <908DA13C-011C-4F01-A074-CA5798C79397@gmail.com> <864a14e7-cd0c-ba31-4b09-9bc08a3eca4d@solarray.com> Message-ID: Sheep have been used here in Vermont. Not as destructive as goats. I have seen them in a solar farm but haven’t followed up with the owners to see if there have been any problems. John Blittersdorf CV Wind & Solar On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 7:32 AM Lloyd Hoffstatter < lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com> wrote: > We used a state approved low grow seed mix in NJ. Some info on seed mixes > from NREL. https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy17osti/66218.pdf > > Best regards, > Lloyd Hoffstatter > Sunstruck Consulting > > Get Outlook for iOS > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Ray > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 13, 2020 11:07:18 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Site Groundskeeping > > Goats are definitely off, I found they ate everything except what you > wanted them to. Very cute though. The low profile "Robo mower" idea > has merit. > > The best I've seen was a wild flower seed mix, that all grew only a > couple of feet high max. They probably needed some weed wacking a few > times a year, but much less than grass. Totally depends on the > location. On the wet side of Maui, you would have the array disappear > into the jungle in 6 months, never to be seen again. In the desert, it > might be sage brush after 10 years. > > I worked on a project once that used 4" deep gravel spread over 160 > acres. Total disaster in my opinion; think how many cubic yards had to > be trucked in. Vehicles got stuck in the loose gravel, it slowed > everyone down, and 3 ft high weeds were growing up out of it in 6 > weeks. Then when you went to weed wack, you had gravel projectiles sent > flying into the glass. > > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 5/13/20 9:28 PM, Jay wrote: > > Have you thought of sheep? > > > > Goats can be tough as they like to eat wire and climb on the panels. But > if the modules are off the ground high enough might work. > > > > Jay > > > > Peltz power. > > > > > >> On May 13, 2020, at 6:22 PM, Corey Shalanski > wrote: > >> > >>  > >> This is not so much a "wrench" question--more like a "lawnmower" > question... > >> > >> For anyone involved with large-scale ground mount systems, I am curious > about the various methods being used to control vegetation. My sense has > been that O&M service providers generally gravitate toward gas > mowers/trimmers with spot application of chemical herbicides. Does anyone > have any experience with alternative methods, such as specialized seeding > (e.g. pollinator-friendly), groundcover plants, goat herds, maybe even > robotic GPS-guided mowers? I'm especially interested to hear from anyone > who has analyzed the pros/cons of different methods or who can speak to any > approaches that might be site-specific. > >> > >> -- > >> Corey Shalanski > >> Jah Light Solar > >> Portland, Jamaica > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu May 14 10:00:39 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 07:00:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Site Groundskeeping In-Reply-To: <864a14e7-cd0c-ba31-4b09-9bc08a3eca4d@solarray.com> References: <908DA13C-011C-4F01-A074-CA5798C79397@gmail.com> <864a14e7-cd0c-ba31-4b09-9bc08a3eca4d@solarray.com> Message-ID: <42385e9eedb56d7e1fa5243d83f84ccc@127.0.0.1> The first thing I tell my clients interested in what is under arrays is to call the professionals.These folks are in most states and all over the world. Maui Master Gardener Helpline. Day: Monday, Wednesday, Friday Time: 9 am to noon. Phone: (808) 244-3242 ext. 228 email: MauiMg at ctahr.hawaii.edu They also have a websites and are on Facebook. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 13 May 2020 23:07:18 -0400, Ray wrote: > Goats are definitely off, I found they ate everything except what you > wanted them to.  Very cute though.  The low profile "Robo mower" idea > has merit. > > The best I've seen was a wild flower seed mix, that all grew only a > couple of feet high max.  They probably needed some weed wacking a few > times a year, but much less than grass.  Totally depends on the > location.  On the wet side of Maui, you would have the array disappear > into the jungle in 6 months, never to be seen again.  In the desert, it > might be sage brush after 10 years. > > I worked on a project once that used 4" deep gravel spread over 160 > acres.  Total disaster in my opinion; think how many cubic yards had to > be trucked in.  Vehicles got stuck in the loose gravel, it slowed > everyone down, and 3 ft high weeds were growing up out of it in 6 > weeks.  Then when you went to weed wack, you had gravel projectiles sent > flying into the glass. > > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 5/13/20 9:28 PM, Jay wrote: >> Have you thought of sheep? >> >> Goats can be tough as they like to eat wire and climb on the panels. But >> if the modules are off the ground high enough might work. >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> >> >>> On May 13, 2020, at 6:22 PM, Corey Shalanski >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> This is not so much a "wrench" question--more like a "lawnmower" >>> question... >>> >>> For anyone involved with large-scale ground mount systems, I am curious >>> about the various methods being used to control vegetation. My sense has >>> been that O&M service providers generally gravitate toward gas >>> mowers/trimmers with spot application of chemical herbicides. Does >>> anyone have any experience with alternative methods, such as specialized >>> seeding (e.g. pollinator-friendly), groundcover plants, goat herds, >>> maybe even robotic GPS-guided mowers? I'm especially interested to hear >>> from anyone who has analyzed the pros/cons of different methods or who >>> can speak to any approaches that might be site-specific. >>> >>> -- >>> Corey Shalanski >>> Jah Light Solar >>> Portland, Jamaica >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu May 14 10:31:34 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 10:31:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Site Groundskeeping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <90dd81b06bc480dacf3ecb47c8458a7b@redwoodalliance.org> How about Geofabric [3] and gravel? --- On 2020-05-13 21:22, Corey Shalanski wrote: > This is not so much a "wrench" question--more like a "lawnmower" question... > > For anyone involved with large-scale ground mount systems, I am curious about the various methods being used to control vegetation. My sense has been that O&M service providers generally gravitate toward gas mowers/trimmers with spot application of chemical herbicides. Does anyone have any experience with alternative methods, such as specialized seeding (e.g. pollinator-friendly), groundcover plants, goat herds, maybe even robotic GPS-guided mowers? I'm especially interested to hear from anyone who has analyzed the pros/cons of different methods or who can speak to any approaches that might be site-specific. > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] Links: ------ [1] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [3] https://www.usfabricsinc.com/products/geotextiles/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu May 14 12:03:49 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 09:03:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Rapid Shut Down In-Reply-To: <02b201d62995$43d02a30$cb707e90$@com> References: <02b201d62995$43d02a30$cb707e90$@com> Message-ID: Marco Have you looked on Ebay I have found a few there but not cheap Jerry On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 5:52 AM Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Aloha all, > > > > I’m in need of two of these, please. > > > > https://files.sma.de/dl/27991/RSDBOX-DUS172426W.pdf > > > > If someone out there has one or two, please contact me off-list. > marco at pvthawaii.com > > > > mahalo, > > marco > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri May 15 01:48:36 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 22:48:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 Message-ID: Friends: I have occasion to try the FM100 charge controller. I am wondering of anyone had found any quirks with implementing this device. I have a few specific questions: 1. I want to avoid AFCI unless mandated. Will this be defeated if I don’t run the leads through the sense coil? (There is an AFCI and non-AFCI version but I can’t seem to find the non-AFCI version anywhere.) 2. I noticed the manual indicates you are not supposed to mix the FM100 with the FM80 or 60 in the same battery system. This negates it for one project I had in mind. I am curious as to why this is. Anyone know? 3. Will the FM100 work with a standard hub? 4. I suppose this unit requires a 125 amp breaker. If the PV array cannot support that full 100 amps I might down-size the OCPD accordingly. Anyone contemplate this question? Thanks in advance. William -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 15 09:21:50 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 06:21:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6206cf79646fe84fdf1f98e535bf51ce@127.0.0.1> On the #4 question, if you downsize the breaker you can also downsize the cc output wiring as long as the breaker is still protecting the wiring, as you know. One of the advantages of this controller (or any HVcc) is the higher input voltage is great down the line for adding more solar easily. In that case you might as well wire and over current protect to what Outback requires. DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 14 May 2020 22:48:36 -0700, William Miller wrote: Friends: I have occasion to try the FM100 charge controller. I am wondering of anyone had found any quirks with implementing this device. I have a few specific questions: 1. I want to avoid AFCI unless mandated. Will this be defeated if I don't run the leads through the sense coil? (There is an AFCI and non-AFCI version but I can't seem to find the non-AFCI version anywhere.) 2. I noticed the manual indicates you are not supposed to mix the FM100 with the FM80 or 60 in the same battery system. This negates it for one project I had in mind. I am curious as to why this is. Anyone know? 3. Will the FM100 work with a standard hub? 4. I suppose this unit requires a 125 amp breaker. If the PV array cannot support that full 100 amps I might down-size the OCPD accordingly. Anyone contemplate this question? Thanks in advance. William Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri May 15 10:33:55 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 07:33:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William Yes downsizing breaker to meet load is no problem. And getting wire that big into it with 1” KO is a pain. I’m pretty sure any hub will work, needs 3S mate Where in the manual did you find the “don’t mix with other 60/80 controllers? Jay Peltz power > On May 15, 2020, at 12:46 AM, William Miller wrote: > >  > Friends: > > I have occasion to try the FM100 charge controller. I am wondering of anyone had found any quirks with implementing this device. I have a few specific questions: > > 1. I want to avoid AFCI unless mandated. Will this be defeated if I don’t run the leads through the sense coil? (There is an AFCI and non-AFCI version but I can’t seem to find the non-AFCI version anywhere.) > 2. I noticed the manual indicates you are not supposed to mix the FM100 with the FM80 or 60 in the same battery system. This negates it for one project I had in mind. I am curious as to why this is. Anyone know? > 3. Will the FM100 work with a standard hub? > 4. I suppose this unit requires a 125 amp breaker. If the PV array cannot support that full 100 amps I might down-size the OCPD accordingly. Anyone contemplate this question? > > Thanks in advance. > > William > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri May 15 12:48:58 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 09:48:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay: On the FM100 landing page . The warning is pasted below. *Due to the different voltage ratings, OutBack Power does not recommend mixing the FM100-300VDC with the FM60 or FM80-150VDC controllers on the same battery bank.* Interestingly the warning is not seen on the FM100 AFCI landing page . I thought I saw this also in one of the Owner’s manuals but I looked today and can’t find it there. Interesting… I have a client that wants to add a fourth PV array to a system with three FM80s. This will require a fourth charge controller. Being able to run smaller wire in the existing conduits is an attractive proposition, making the FM100 a desirable approach. I now have to figure out if I can add the FM100-AFCI (which is apparently the only version available) to a system with three FM80s, and if I do, what do I do with the existing GFDI breaker and how do I arrange the DC bond? There is a lot to consider here. BTW, I was told by a tech support person for an on-line sales firm that the original FM100 did not have the AFCI but those units have been discontinued. Now all FM100s have the AFCI capability. I am weighing if I want AFCI if it is not required. My territory includes central California wild lands so I suppose I should take advantage of any fire safety means at my disposal… William *From:* Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] *Sent:* Friday, May 15, 2020 7:34 AM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 Hi William Yes downsizing breaker to meet load is no problem. And getting wire that big into it with 1” KO is a pain. I’m pretty sure any hub will work, needs 3S mate Where in the manual did you find the “don’t mix with other 60/80 controllers? Jay Peltz power On May 15, 2020, at 12:46 AM, William Miller wrote:  Friends: I have occasion to try the FM100 charge controller. I am wondering of anyone had found any quirks with implementing this device. I have a few specific questions: 1. I want to avoid AFCI unless mandated. Will this be defeated if I don’t run the leads through the sense coil? (There is an AFCI and non-AFCI version but I can’t seem to find the non-AFCI version anywhere.) 2. I noticed the manual indicates you are not supposed to mix the FM100 with the FM80 or 60 in the same battery system. This negates it for one project I had in mind. I am curious as to why this is. Anyone know? 3. Will the FM100 work with a standard hub? 4. I suppose this unit requires a 125 amp breaker. If the PV array cannot support that full 100 amps I might down-size the OCPD accordingly. Anyone contemplate this question? Thanks in advance. William _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri May 15 13:26:14 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 13:26:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Buzzing Message-ID: <908124c099f43919534ba8cc90ffd99e@redwoodalliance.org> Hello Wrenches, What does it mean when a Radian spontaneously emits a fairly loud buzz for the better part of a minute and then stops? The loads were small, just a few amps. This is an off grid system with no AC input. The generator is not connected. There are microinverters, AC coupled to the system, but the light level was very low at the time. Outback has not responded to this question after several days and several messages, including the submission of their online form to start a case. Thank you, Drake -- From chris at OasisMontana.com Fri May 15 12:52:53 2020 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 10:52:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Powered inverters & parts Message-ID: <01fa01d62ad9$46f0bbe0$d4d233a0$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: If you have any PV Powered inverters or related parts, I have a fellow looking for some. Please feel free to contact me off list. TGIF, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri May 15 14:13:07 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 11:13:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Buzzing In-Reply-To: <908124c099f43919534ba8cc90ffd99e@redwoodalliance.org> References: <908124c099f43919534ba8cc90ffd99e@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: so this is only AC coupled and programmed correctly, first verify both ac and dc currents with a meter. I only here buzzing under high demand, your AC Load may be higher then you think with the ac coupling side. On Fri, May 15, 2020, 10:41 AM wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > What does it mean when a Radian spontaneously emits a fairly loud buzz > for the better part of a minute and then stops? The loads were small, > just a few amps. > > This is an off grid system with no AC input. The generator is not > connected. There are microinverters, AC coupled to the system, but the > light level was very low at the time. > > Outback has not responded to this question after several days and > several messages, including the submission of their online form to start > a case. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri May 15 14:03:11 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 11:03:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <095F5EA5-D02E-4F8C-ACF5-E3C45B11C36F@gmail.com> Hi William, that warning isn't on the AFCI one, Jay Peltz power. > On May 15, 2020, at 10:41 AM, William Miller wrote: > >  > Jay: > > On the FM100 landing page. The warning is pasted below. > > Due to the different voltage ratings, OutBack Power does not recommend mixing the FM100-300VDC with the FM60 or FM80-150VDC controllers on the same battery bank. > > Interestingly the warning is not seen on the FM100 AFCI landing page. > > I thought I saw this also in one of the Owner’s manuals but I looked today and can’t find it there. Interesting… > > I have a client that wants to add a fourth PV array to a system with three FM80s. This will require a fourth charge controller. Being able to run smaller wire in the existing conduits is an attractive proposition, making the FM100 a desirable approach. I now have to figure out if I can add the FM100-AFCI (which is apparently the only version available) to a system with three FM80s, and if I do, what do I do with the existing GFDI breaker and how do I arrange the DC bond? There is a lot to consider here. > > BTW, I was told by a tech support person for an on-line sales firm that the original FM100 did not have the AFCI but those units have been discontinued. Now all FM100s have the AFCI capability. I am weighing if I want AFCI if it is not required. My territory includes central California wild lands so I suppose I should take advantage of any fire safety means at my disposal… > > William > > > From: Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 7:34 AM > To: william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 > > Hi William > > Yes downsizing breaker to meet load is no problem. And getting wire that big into it with 1” KO is a pain. > > I’m pretty sure any hub will work, needs 3S mate > > Where in the manual did you find the “don’t mix with other 60/80 controllers? > > Jay > > Peltz power > > > On May 15, 2020, at 12:46 AM, William Miller wrote: > >  > Friends: > > I have occasion to try the FM100 charge controller. I am wondering of anyone had found any quirks with implementing this device. I have a few specific questions: > > 1. I want to avoid AFCI unless mandated. Will this be defeated if I don’t run the leads through the sense coil? (There is an AFCI and non-AFCI version but I can’t seem to find the non-AFCI version anywhere.) > 2. I noticed the manual indicates you are not supposed to mix the FM100 with the FM80 or 60 in the same battery system. This negates it for one project I had in mind. I am curious as to why this is. Anyone know? > 3. Will the FM100 work with a standard hub? > 4. I suppose this unit requires a 125 amp breaker. If the PV array cannot support that full 100 amps I might down-size the OCPD accordingly. Anyone contemplate this question? > > Thanks in advance. > > William > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri May 15 17:30:21 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 17:30:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7dbc985c-c2d6-0b61-f7c7-1d001f5c0f5f@solarray.com> I've installed a few FM 100s.  Seem to work fine, and nice to wire arrays 6 in series, but we do have to use the higher voltage rated breakers on the PV side.  We have had them mixed with other controllers and haven't had problems, but we do Not use the HUB or ever interconnect them.   We've found by not interconnecting the controllers that we have redundancy, and any single controller (or Comm) failure is not going to take the entire charging system down. It has no onboard screen, so you need the Mate 3 to program them. We pull the Mate 3 after programming and just keep it on the truck to save customers the $600.00.  They can buy one later, if they decide they want to tweak settings all the time. (not happened yet.) We always use 100 amp DC breakers that are 100% duty cycle rated.  ON the battery side, the regular Midnite or Outback type 150 vdc work fine. On AFCI, I believe it can be set to "off" in the programming, but I'm not in front of one right now, so that's just based on my failing memory bank.  However, I too do not like GFCI and AFCI for ground mounts unless mandated.   I've seen all sorts of weird issues even on the AC side of the system end up tripping the charge controller off.  In the case of the FM100, the GFCI is accomplished with a fuse, which are hard to come by locally. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/15/20 1:48 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > I have occasion to try the FM100 charge controller.  I am wondering of > anyone had found any quirks with implementing this device.  I have a > few specific questions: > > 1.I want to avoid AFCI unless mandated.  Will this be defeated if I > don’t run the leads through the sense coil? (There is an AFCI and > non-AFCI version but I can’t seem to find the non-AFCI version anywhere.) > > 2.I noticed the manual indicates you are not supposed to mix the FM100 > with the FM80 or 60 in the same battery system.  This negates it for > one project I had in mind.  I am curious as to why this is.  Anyone know? > > 3.Will the FM100 work with a standard hub? > > 4.I suppose this unit requires a 125 amp breaker.  If the PV array > cannot support that full 100 amps I might down-size the OCPD > accordingly.  Anyone contemplate this question? > > Thanks in advance. > > William > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri May 15 17:37:39 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 17:37:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a system with 3 FM 80s running in parallel with an FM 100 added later.  Works fine, just not connected via the HUB.  I don't quite understand the voltage ratings.  You would just have a 300 v rated breaker on the PV side of the FM 100, so I totally don't see what having 150 vdc rated breakers for other circuits in the same box is an issue.  All the wiring is THHN rated at 600 vdc.   This sounds like a solution looking for a problem. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/15/20 12:48 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Jay: > > On the FM100 landing page > .  > The warning is pasted below. > > /Due to the different voltage ratings, OutBack Power does not > recommend mixing the FM100-300VDC with the FM60 or FM80-150VDC > controllers on the same battery bank./// > > Interestingly the warning is not seen on the FM100 AFCI landing page > . > > I thought I saw this also in one of the Owner’s manuals but I looked > today and can’t find it there.  Interesting… > > I have a client that wants to add a fourth PV array to a system with > three FM80s.  This will require a fourth charge controller.  Being > able to run smaller wire in the existing conduits is an attractive > proposition, making the FM100 a desirable approach.  I now have to > figure out if I can add the FM100-AFCI (which is apparently the only > version available) to a system with three FM80s, and if I do, what do > I do with the existing GFDI breaker and how do I arrange the DC bond?  > There is a lot to consider here. > > BTW, I was told by a tech support person for an on-line sales firm > that the original FM100 did not have the AFCI but those units have > been discontinued.  Now all FM100s have the AFCI capability.  I am > weighing if I want AFCI if it is not required.  My territory includes > central California wild lands so I suppose I should take advantage of > any fire safety means at my disposal… > > William > > *From:*Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com ] > *Sent:* Friday, May 15, 2020 7:34 AM > *To:* william at millersolar.com ; > RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 > > Hi William > > Yes downsizing breaker to meet load is no problem. And getting wire > that big into it with 1” KO is a pain. > > I’m pretty sure any hub will work, needs 3S mate > > Where in the manual did you find the “don’t mix with other 60/80 > controllers? > > Jay > > Peltz power > > > > On May 15, 2020, at 12:46 AM, William Miller > wrote: > >  > > Friends: > > I have occasion to try the FM100 charge controller.  I am > wondering of anyone had found any quirks with implementing this > device.  I have a few specific questions: > > 1.I want to avoid AFCI unless mandated.  Will this be defeated if > I don’t run the leads through the sense coil? (There is an AFCI > and non-AFCI version but I can’t seem to find the non-AFCI version > anywhere.) > > 2.I noticed the manual indicates you are not supposed to mix the > FM100 with the FM80 or 60 in the same battery system.  This > negates it for one project I had in mind. I am curious as to why > this is.  Anyone know? > > 3.Will the FM100 work with a standard hub? > > 4.I suppose this unit requires a 125 amp breaker.  If the PV array > cannot support that full 100 amps I might down-size the OCPD > accordingly.  Anyone contemplate this question? > > Thanks in advance. > > William > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 15 16:51:29 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 13:51:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 In-Reply-To: <095F5EA5-D02E-4F8C-ACF5-E3C45B11C36F@gmail.com> References: <095F5EA5-D02E-4F8C-ACF5-E3C45B11C36F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5be9c2db7aca9d34542a01b2a2cc53aa@127.0.0.1> I have little experience with arc fault detection because I do not use them offgrid. Could it save one from starting a wildfire? My experience is I have never had a ground mount start a wildfire and even a bad panel is pretty contained in a failure. I just know that I make a small fortune replacing grid tie inverter AFD's that failsafe in the no solar mode. Definitely do not want another way to lose power offgrid. There are plenty already:) Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 15 May 2020 11:03:11 -0700, Jay wrote: Hi William, that warning isn't on the AFCI one, Jay Peltz power. On May 15, 2020, at 10:41 AM, William Miller wrote: Jay: On the FM100 landing page [3]. The warning is pasted below. _Due to the different voltage ratings, OutBack Power does not recommend mixing the FM100-300VDC with the FM60 or FM80-150VDC controllers on the same battery bank._ Interestingly the warning is not seen on the FM100 AFCI landing page [4]. I thought I saw this also in one of the Owner's manuals but I looked today and can't find it there. Interesting... I have a client that wants to add a fourth PV array to a system with three FM80s. This will require a fourth charge controller. Being able to run smaller wire in the existing conduits is an attractive proposition, making the FM100 a desirable approach. I now have to figure out if I can add the FM100-AFCI (which is apparently the only version available) to a system with three FM80s, and if I do, what do I do with the existing GFDI breaker and how do I arrange the DC bond? There is a lot to consider here. BTW, I was told by a tech support person for an on-line sales firm that the original FM100 did not have the AFCI but those units have been discontinued. Now all FM100s have the AFCI capability. I am weighing if I want AFCI if it is not required. My territory includes central California wild lands so I suppose I should take advantage of any fire safety means at my disposal... William FROM: Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com [5]] SENT: Friday, May 15, 2020 7:34 AM TO: william at millersolar.com [6]; RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 Hi William Yes downsizing breaker to meet load is no problem. And getting wire that big into it with 1" KO is a pain. I'm pretty sure any hub will work, needs 3S mate Where in the manual did you find the "don't mix with other 60/80 controllers? Jay Peltz power On May 15, 2020, at 12:46 AM, William Miller wrote: Friends: I have occasion to try the FM100 charge controller. I am wondering of anyone had found any quirks with implementing this device. I have a few specific questions: 1. I want to avoid AFCI unless mandated. Will this be defeated if I don't run the leads through the sense coil? (There is an AFCI and non-AFCI version but I can't seem to find the non-AFCI version anywhere.) 2. I noticed the manual indicates you are not supposed to mix the FM100 with the FM80 or 60 in the same battery system. This negates it for one project I had in mind. I am curious as to why this is. Anyone know? 3. Will the FM100 work with a standard hub? 4. I suppose this unit requires a 125 amp breaker. If the PV array cannot support that full 100 amps I might down-size the OCPD accordingly. Anyone contemplate this question? Thanks in advance. William _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://outbackpower.com/products/charge-controllers/flexmax-100 [4] http://outbackpower.com/products/charge-controllers/flexmax-100-afci [5] mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com [6] mailto:william at millersolar.com [7] mailto:william at millersolar.com [8] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [11] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sun May 17 07:38:58 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 05:38:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 In-Reply-To: <5be9c2db7aca9d34542a01b2a2cc53aa@127.0.0.1> References: <095F5EA5-D02E-4F8C-ACF5-E3C45B11C36F@gmail.com> <5be9c2db7aca9d34542a01b2a2cc53aa@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Hi Ray, I'm curious, do you avoid have the FM100 on the Hub to avoid clients changing the programming or have you seen some other issues? I have some of them out there and they seem to be solid, all Hub 10.3 connected. On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 3:48 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > I have little experience with arc fault detection because I do not use > them offgrid. Could it save one from starting a wildfire? My experience is > I have never had a ground mount start a wildfire and even a bad panel is > pretty contained in a failure. > > I just know that I make a small fortune replacing grid tie inverter AFD's > that failsafe in the no solar mode. Definitely do not want another way to > lose power offgrid. There are plenty already:) > > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Fri, 15 May 2020 11:03:11 -0700, Jay wrote: > > Hi William, > > that warning isn't on the AFCI one, > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 15, 2020, at 10:41 AM, William Miller > wrote: > > Jay: > > > > On the FM100 landing page > . The > warning is pasted below. > > > > *Due to the different voltage ratings, OutBack Power does not recommend > mixing the FM100-300VDC with the FM60 or FM80-150VDC controllers on the > same battery bank.* > > > > Interestingly the warning is not seen on the FM100 AFCI landing page > . > > > > I thought I saw this also in one of the Owner's manuals but I looked today > and can't find it there. Interesting... > > > > I have a client that wants to add a fourth PV array to a system with three > FM80s. This will require a fourth charge controller. Being able to run > smaller wire in the existing conduits is an attractive proposition, making > the FM100 a desirable approach. I now have to figure out if I can add the > FM100-AFCI (which is apparently the only version available) to a system > with three FM80s, and if I do, what do I do with the existing GFDI breaker > and how do I arrange the DC bond? There is a lot to consider here. > > > > BTW, I was told by a tech support person for an on-line sales firm that > the original FM100 did not have the AFCI but those units have been > discontinued. Now all FM100s have the AFCI capability. I am weighing if I > want AFCI if it is not required. My territory includes central California > wild lands so I suppose I should take advantage of any fire safety means at > my disposal... > > > > William > > > > > > *From:* Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] > *Sent:* Friday, May 15, 2020 7:34 AM > *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 > > > > Hi William > > > > Yes downsizing breaker to meet load is no problem. And getting wire that > big into it with 1" KO is a pain. > > > > I'm pretty sure any hub will work, needs 3S mate > > > > Where in the manual did you find the "don't mix with other 60/80 > controllers? > > > > Jay > > > > Peltz power > > > > On May 15, 2020, at 12:46 AM, William Miller > wrote: > > Friends: > > > > I have occasion to try the FM100 charge controller. I am wondering of > anyone had found any quirks with implementing this device. I have a few > specific questions: > > > > 1. I want to avoid AFCI unless mandated. Will this be defeated if > I don't run the leads through the sense coil? (There is an AFCI and > non-AFCI version but I can't seem to find the non-AFCI version anywhere.) > > 2. I noticed the manual indicates you are not supposed to mix the > FM100 with the FM80 or 60 in the same battery system. This negates it for > one project I had in mind. I am curious as to why this is. Anyone know? > > 3. Will the FM100 work with a standard hub? > > 4. I suppose this unit requires a 125 amp breaker. If the PV array > cannot support that full 100 amps I might down-size the OCPD accordingly. > Anyone contemplate this question? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > William > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Sun May 17 16:54:36 2020 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 15:54:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rail-less Racking Message-ID: I am wondering if anyone on the List has significant experience installing rail-less racking systems (Quick Mount PV Quick Rack, Roof Tech E Mount AIR, SnapNrack RL Universal, etc.) and can speak to the pros and cons versus rail-based systems? Also wondering if anyone has strong opinions regarding the lesser air gap below modules with rail-less systems and how much, if at all, that might affect production? *bonus points awarded for providing quantitative data -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun May 17 21:21:13 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 21:21:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 In-Reply-To: References: <095F5EA5-D02E-4F8C-ACF5-E3C45B11C36F@gmail.com> <5be9c2db7aca9d34542a01b2a2cc53aa@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <01272a65-632d-1661-4842-9e39fce49819@solarray.com> I don't connect to the HUB or Mate if I don't have to; both to avoid issues with the customers changing programming, but also to save the customer money.  However, the #1 reason is that when all the equipment is interconnected, it is all dependent.  A failure in a comm cable or single piece of equipment can cause all the controllers to shut down.  I just don't think the benefits of com connection out weigh the loss of redundancy.  I have many systems with multiple charge controllers, and I have seen everything from a bad temp sensor to a single failed controller take the other controllers off line too.  Without the interconnection, a failed controller will just drop the system to half power, not to zero production. This isn't just with Outback, I follow this reasoning with Midnite and Magnum as well.  I often mix equipment (Magnum inverter, Outback Controller) so comm connection isn't a possibility anyway.  We might be missing some bells and whistles, but our systems stay operational in more situations.   Basically I'm not happy enough with any single manufacturer to give them a monopoly with my designs.  I've always built our systems with the best equipment we can get for that particular situation. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/17/20 7:38 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Ray, > > I'm curious, do you avoid have the FM100 on the Hub to avoid clients > changing the programming or have you seen some other issues?  I have > some of them out there and they seem to be solid, all Hub 10.3 connected. > > On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 3:48 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > wrote: > > I have little experience with arc fault detection because I do not > use them offgrid. Could it save one from starting a wildfire? My > experience is I have never had a ground mount start a wildfire and > even a bad panel is pretty contained in a failure. > > I just know that I make a small fortune replacing grid tie > inverter AFD's that failsafe in the no solar mode. Definitely do > not want another way to lose power offgrid. There are plenty already:) > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Fri, 15 May 2020 11:03:11 -0700, Jay > wrote: > >> Hi William, >> that warning isn't on the AFCI one, >> Jay >> Peltz power. >> >>> On May 15, 2020, at 10:41 AM, William Miller >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Jay: >>> >>> On the FM100 landing page >>> .  >>> The warning is pasted below. >>> >>> /Due to the different voltage ratings, OutBack Power does not >>> recommend mixing the FM100-300VDC with the FM60 or FM80-150VDC >>> controllers on the same battery bank./ >>> >>> Interestingly the warning is not seen on the FM100 AFCI landing >>> page >>> . >>> >>> I thought I saw this also in one of the Owner's manuals but I >>> looked today and can't find it there.  Interesting... >>> >>> I have a client that wants to add a fourth PV array to a system >>> with three FM80s.  This will require a fourth charge >>> controller.  Being able to run smaller wire in the existing >>> conduits is an attractive proposition, making the FM100 a >>> desirable approach.  I now have to figure out if I can add the >>> FM100-AFCI (which is apparently the only version available) to a >>> system with three FM80s, and if I do, what do I do with the >>> existing GFDI breaker and how do I arrange the DC bond?  There >>> is a lot to consider here. >>> >>> BTW, I was told by a tech support person for an on-line sales >>> firm that the original FM100 did not have the AFCI but those >>> units have been discontinued.  Now all FM100s have the AFCI >>> capability.  I am weighing if I want AFCI if it is not >>> required.  My territory includes central California wild lands >>> so I suppose I should take advantage of any fire safety means at >>> my disposal... >>> >>> William >>> >>> *From:*Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com >>> ] >>> *Sent:* Friday, May 15, 2020 7:34 AM >>> *To:* william at millersolar.com ; >>> RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 >>> >>> Hi William >>> >>> Yes downsizing breaker to meet load is no problem. And getting >>> wire that big into it with 1" KO is a pain. >>> >>> I'm pretty sure any hub will work, needs 3S mate >>> >>> Where in the manual did you find the "don't mix with other 60/80 >>> controllers? >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> Peltz power >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 15, 2020, at 12:46 AM, William Miller >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Friends: >>> >>> I have occasion to try the FM100 charge controller.  I am >>> wondering of anyone had found any quirks with implementing >>> this device.  I have a few specific questions: >>> >>> 1.I want to avoid AFCI unless mandated.  Will this be >>> defeated if I don't run the leads through the sense coil? >>> (There is an AFCI and non-AFCI version but I can't seem to >>> find the non-AFCI version anywhere.) >>> >>> 2.I noticed the manual indicates you are not supposed to mix >>> the FM100 with the FM80 or 60 in the same battery system.  >>> This negates it for one project I had in mind.  I am curious >>> as to why this is. Anyone know? >>> >>> 3.Will the FM100 work with a standard hub? >>> >>> 4.I suppose this unit requires a 125 amp breaker.  If the PV >>> array cannot support that full 100 amps I might down-size >>> the OCPD accordingly.  Anyone contemplate this question? >>> >>> Thanks in advance. >>> >>> William >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Mon May 18 09:56:02 2020 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 09:56:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rail-less racking Message-ID: I tried a rail-less system on a roof mount once, but never again. It worked roughly as advertised, but the problem was aesthetic. It was a bear trying to get the modules parallel and flat. Too many degrees of freedom and no roof is as flat as you’d wish. With rails at least the modules are lined up in one plane. I’ve seen a few no rail installations on raised seam roofing and noticed the “diving board” problem. The width of the modules never corresponds exactly with the seam spacing. Some modules end up hanging out over the last mounting points a bit too much. Also, in terms of safety, rails spread out the load over multiple mounting points, so no one point takes an extreme load and the failure of any one point isn’t immediately fatal. Rails, yes. Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun May 17 21:46:57 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 18:46:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 In-Reply-To: <01272a65-632d-1661-4842-9e39fce49819@solarray.com> References: <01272a65-632d-1661-4842-9e39fce49819@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi Ray In my experience I’ve had plenty of hub and component/comm failures but I’ve never had it shut down the fndc or charge controllers with OB or Schneider equipment. I’m wondering if you have? Thx Jay Peltz power. > On May 17, 2020, at 6:21 PM, Ray wrote: > >  > I don't connect to the HUB or Mate if I don't have to; both to avoid issues with the customers changing programming, but also to save the customer money. However, the #1 reason is that when all the equipment is interconnected, it is all dependent. A failure in a comm cable or single piece of equipment can cause all the controllers to shut down. I just don't think the benefits of com connection out weigh the loss of redundancy. I have many systems with multiple charge controllers, and I have seen everything from a bad temp sensor to a single failed controller take the other controllers off line too. Without the interconnection, a failed controller will just drop the system to half power, not to zero production. > > This isn't just with Outback, I follow this reasoning with Midnite and Magnum as well. I often mix equipment (Magnum inverter, Outback Controller) so comm connection isn't a possibility anyway. We might be missing some bells and whistles, but our systems stay operational in more situations. Basically I'm not happy enough with any single manufacturer to give them a monopoly with my designs. I've always built our systems with the best equipment we can get for that particular situation. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 >> On 5/17/20 7:38 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: >> Hi Ray, >> >> I'm curious, do you avoid have the FM100 on the Hub to avoid clients changing the programming or have you seen some other issues? I have some of them out there and they seem to be solid, all Hub 10.3 connected. >> >> On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 3:48 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>> I have little experience with arc fault detection because I do not use them offgrid. Could it save one from starting a wildfire? My experience is I have never had a ground mount start a wildfire and even a bad panel is pretty contained in a failure. >>> >>> I just know that I make a small fortune replacing grid tie inverter AFD's that failsafe in the no solar mode. Definitely do not want another way to lose power offgrid. There are plenty already:) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060 >>>> On Fri, 15 May 2020 11:03:11 -0700, Jay wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi William, >>>> >>>> that warning isn't on the AFCI one, >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> Peltz power. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On May 15, 2020, at 10:41 AM, William Miller wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Jay: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On the FM100 landing page. The warning is pasted below. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Due to the different voltage ratings, OutBack Power does not recommend mixing the FM100-300VDC with the FM60 or FM80-150VDC controllers on the same battery bank. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Interestingly the warning is not seen on the FM100 AFCI landing page. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I thought I saw this also in one of the Owner's manuals but I looked today and can't find it there. Interesting... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I have a client that wants to add a fourth PV array to a system with three FM80s. This will require a fourth charge controller. Being able to run smaller wire in the existing conduits is an attractive proposition, making the FM100 a desirable approach. I now have to figure out if I can add the FM100-AFCI (which is apparently the only version available) to a system with three FM80s, and if I do, what do I do with the existing GFDI breaker and how do I arrange the DC bond? There is a lot to consider here. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> BTW, I was told by a tech support person for an on-line sales firm that the original FM100 did not have the AFCI but those units have been discontinued. Now all FM100s have the AFCI capability. I am weighing if I want AFCI if it is not required. My territory includes central California wild lands so I suppose I should take advantage of any fire safety means at my disposal... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> William >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 7:34 AM >>>>> To: william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches >>>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi William >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yes downsizing breaker to meet load is no problem. And getting wire that big into it with 1" KO is a pain. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm pretty sure any hub will work, needs 3S mate >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Where in the manual did you find the "don't mix with other 60/80 controllers? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Peltz power >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 15, 2020, at 12:46 AM, William Miller wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Friends: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I have occasion to try the FM100 charge controller. I am wondering of anyone had found any quirks with implementing this device. I have a few specific questions: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1. I want to avoid AFCI unless mandated. Will this be defeated if I don't run the leads through the sense coil? (There is an AFCI and non-AFCI version but I can't seem to find the non-AFCI version anywhere.) >>>>> >>>>> 2. I noticed the manual indicates you are not supposed to mix the FM100 with the FM80 or 60 in the same battery system. This negates it for one project I had in mind. I am curious as to why this is. Anyone know? >>>>> >>>>> 3. Will the FM100 work with a standard hub? >>>>> >>>>> 4. I suppose this unit requires a 125 amp breaker. If the PV array cannot support that full 100 amps I might down-size the OCPD accordingly. Anyone contemplate this question? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks in advance. >>>>> >>>>> William >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Mon May 18 10:13:44 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 10:13:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] cast-in-place ballasted ground mounts Message-ID: Hi, Looking for info on smaller (50kw or less) suppliers of cast-in-place ground mount systems Thanks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Mon May 18 11:08:32 2020 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 09:08:32 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] cast-in-place ballasted ground mounts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kirk, We were having trouble finding a small scale cast-in-place option like you so last Fall we opted for this: https://www.apalternatives.com/products/geo Sam Haraldson Installation & Service Manager On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 9:01 AM Kirk Herander wrote: > Hi, > Looking for info on smaller (50kw or less) suppliers of cast-in-place > ground mount systems Thanks. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon May 18 11:11:40 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 08:11:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] cast-in-place ballasted ground mounts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Iron ridge, unirac plus more all can do this, it's all in the engineering is all. On Mon, May 18, 2020, 8:01 AM Kirk Herander wrote: > Hi, > Looking for info on smaller (50kw or less) suppliers of cast-in-place > ground mount systems Thanks. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon May 18 11:28:17 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 08:28:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] cast-in-place ballasted ground mounts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <044e1334ea840ed3e0c93fc80c82ca46@127.0.0.1> Especially Iron Ridge if you can use their new "CAMO" clamp for modules. No torque, heck no wrench at all ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 18 May 2020 08:11:40 -0700, Jerry Shafer wrote: Iron ridge, unirac plus more all can do this, it's all in the engineering is all. On Mon, May 18, 2020, 8:01 AM Kirk Herander wrote: Hi, Looking for info on smaller (50kw or less) suppliers of cast-in-place ground mount systems Thanks. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [8] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:vtsolar at icloud.com [4] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Mon May 18 12:36:53 2020 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 16:36:53 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello All 1. I want to avoid AFCI unless mandated. Will this be defeated if I don’t run the leads through the sense coil? (There is an AFCI and non-AFCI version but I can’t seem to find the non-AFCI version anywhere.) * Yes, you can bypass the AFCI by simply not running the PV conductors through the sensor coil 2. I noticed the manual indicates you are not supposed to mix the FM100 with the FM80 or 60 in the same battery system. This negates it for one project I had in mind. I am curious as to why this is. Anyone know? * Here is a link to an App note that covers this situation * http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/fm100_fm80_app_note.pdf * 3. Will the FM100 work with a standard hub? * Yes, both HUB4 and HUB10.3, but firmware updates take almost an hour on the HUB4 because it’s slower. * 4. I suppose this unit requires a 125 amp breaker. If the PV array cannot support that full 100 amps I might down-size the OCPD accordingly. Anyone contemplate this question? * Depends on the application, but all of our prewired load centers and systems come with 125A breakers. I hope this helps take care all. From: William Miller Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2020 10:49 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Outback FM100 Friends: I have occasion to try the FM100 charge controller. I am wondering of anyone had found any quirks with implementing this device. I have a few specific questions: 1. I want to avoid AFCI unless mandated. Will this be defeated if I don’t run the leads through the sense coil? (There is an AFCI and non-AFCI version but I can’t seem to find the non-AFCI version anywhere.) 2. I noticed the manual indicates you are not supposed to mix the FM100 with the FM80 or 60 in the same battery system. This negates it for one project I had in mind. I am curious as to why this is. Anyone know? 3. Will the FM100 work with a standard hub? 4. I suppose this unit requires a 125 amp breaker. If the PV array cannot support that full 100 amps I might down-size the OCPD accordingly. Anyone contemplate this question? Thanks in advance. William -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon May 18 12:45:03 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 12:45:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 In-Reply-To: References: <01272a65-632d-1661-4842-9e39fce49819@solarray.com> Message-ID: <0055ae48-741f-a1f1-7ea4-973ecdc3e50d@solarray.com> I've had them shut inverters down for both the brands you mentioned.  The comm failures that took out controllers were the Midnite "Follow Me" setup. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/17/20 9:46 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi Ray > > In my experience I’ve had plenty of hub and component/comm failures > but I’ve never had it shut down the fndc or charge controllers with OB > or Schneider equipment. > > I’m wondering if you have? > > Thx > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > >> On May 17, 2020, at 6:21 PM, Ray wrote: >> >>  >> >> I don't connect to the HUB or Mate if I don't have to; both to avoid >> issues with the customers changing programming, but also to save the >> customer money.  However, the #1 reason is that when all the >> equipment is interconnected, it is all dependent.  A failure in a >> comm cable or single piece of equipment can cause all the controllers >> to shut down.  I just don't think the benefits of com connection out >> weigh the loss of redundancy.  I have many systems with multiple >> charge controllers, and I have seen everything from a bad temp sensor >> to a single failed controller take the other controllers off line >> too.  Without the interconnection, a failed controller will just drop >> the system to half power, not to zero production. >> >> This isn't just with Outback, I follow this reasoning with Midnite >> and Magnum as well.  I often mix equipment (Magnum inverter, Outback >> Controller) so comm connection isn't a possibility anyway.  We might >> be missing some bells and whistles, but our systems stay operational >> in more situations.   Basically I'm not happy enough with any single >> manufacturer to give them a monopoly with my designs.  I've always >> built our systems with the best equipment we can get for that >> particular situation. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 5/17/20 7:38 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: >>> Hi Ray, >>> >>> I'm curious, do you avoid have the FM100 on the Hub to avoid clients >>> changing the programming or have you seen some other issues?  I have >>> some of them out there and they seem to be solid, all Hub 10.3 >>> connected. >>> >>> On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 3:48 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> > wrote: >>> >>> I have little experience with arc fault detection because I do >>> not use them offgrid. Could it save one from starting a >>> wildfire? My experience is I have never had a ground mount start >>> a wildfire and even a bad panel is pretty contained in a failure. >>> >>> I just know that I make a small fortune replacing grid tie >>> inverter AFD's that failsafe in the no solar mode. Definitely do >>> not want another way to lose power offgrid. There are plenty >>> already:) >>> >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> On Fri, 15 May 2020 11:03:11 -0700, Jay >> > wrote: >>> >>>> Hi William, >>>> that warning isn't on the AFCI one, >>>> Jay >>>> Peltz power. >>>> >>>>> On May 15, 2020, at 10:41 AM, William Miller >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Jay: >>>>> >>>>> On the FM100 landing page >>>>> .  >>>>> The warning is pasted below. >>>>> >>>>> /Due to the different voltage ratings, OutBack Power does not >>>>> recommend mixing the FM100-300VDC with the FM60 or FM80-150VDC >>>>> controllers on the same battery bank./ >>>>> >>>>> Interestingly the warning is not seen on the FM100 AFCI >>>>> landing page >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> I thought I saw this also in one of the Owner's manuals but I >>>>> looked today and can't find it there. Interesting... >>>>> >>>>> I have a client that wants to add a fourth PV array to a >>>>> system with three FM80s.  This will require a fourth charge >>>>> controller.  Being able to run smaller wire in the existing >>>>> conduits is an attractive proposition, making the FM100 a >>>>> desirable approach.  I now have to figure out if I can add the >>>>> FM100-AFCI (which is apparently the only version available) to >>>>> a system with three FM80s, and if I do, what do I do with the >>>>> existing GFDI breaker and how do I arrange the DC bond?  There >>>>> is a lot to consider here. >>>>> >>>>> BTW, I was told by a tech support person for an on-line sales >>>>> firm that the original FM100 did not have the AFCI but those >>>>> units have been discontinued.  Now all FM100s have the AFCI >>>>> capability.  I am weighing if I want AFCI if it is not >>>>> required.  My territory includes central California wild lands >>>>> so I suppose I should take advantage of any fire safety means >>>>> at my disposal... >>>>> >>>>> William >>>>> >>>>> *From:*Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com >>>>> ] >>>>> *Sent:* Friday, May 15, 2020 7:34 AM >>>>> *To:* william at millersolar.com >>>>> ; RE-wrenches >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 >>>>> >>>>> Hi William >>>>> >>>>> Yes downsizing breaker to meet load is no problem. And getting >>>>> wire that big into it with 1" KO is a pain. >>>>> >>>>> I'm pretty sure any hub will work, needs 3S mate >>>>> >>>>> Where in the manual did you find the "don't mix with other >>>>> 60/80 controllers? >>>>> >>>>> Jay >>>>> >>>>> Peltz power >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 15, 2020, at 12:46 AM, William Miller >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Friends: >>>>> >>>>> I have occasion to try the FM100 charge controller.  I am >>>>> wondering of anyone had found any quirks with implementing >>>>> this device.  I have a few specific questions: >>>>> >>>>> 1.I want to avoid AFCI unless mandated.  Will this be >>>>> defeated if I don't run the leads through the sense coil? >>>>> (There is an AFCI and non-AFCI version but I can't seem to >>>>> find the non-AFCI version anywhere.) >>>>> >>>>> 2.I noticed the manual indicates you are not supposed to >>>>> mix the FM100 with the FM80 or 60 in the same battery >>>>> system.  This negates it for one project I had in mind.  I >>>>> am curious as to why this is.  Anyone know? >>>>> >>>>> 3.Will the FM100 work with a standard hub? >>>>> >>>>> 4.I suppose this unit requires a 125 amp breaker.  If the >>>>> PV array cannot support that full 100 amps I might >>>>> down-size the OCPD accordingly.  Anyone contemplate this >>>>> question? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks in advance. >>>>> >>>>> William >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> * >>> >>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>> >>> * >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkatz at backwoodssolar.com Mon May 18 12:59:45 2020 From: dkatz at backwoodssolar.com (David Katz) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 09:59:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] cast-in-place ballasted ground mounts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kirk, Check out DiamondPiers. They say that they are equal to a 24" diameter, 5 foot deep concrete pier and require no concrete. You just need a jackhammer type tool. I have not tried them. They could be good for multipole ground mounts https://www.diamondpiers.com/how-it-works David Katz On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 7:13 AM Kirk Herander wrote: > Hi, > Looking for info on smaller (50kw or less) suppliers of cast-in-place > ground mount systems Thanks. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sunengser at gmail.com Mon May 18 14:06:23 2020 From: sunengser at gmail.com (Bill Hoffer) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 11:06:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rail-less Racking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cory I tried a railless S-5 system on a metal roof and will never do it again! Looks great and very professional. The clearance under the modules is a real problem for wire management and I had to switch out a bad microinverter and it was really difficult compared to have a rails. Had to disconnect all adjoining modules from the S-5 which allowed things to shift a bit making replacement an absolute pain in the butt. It was a steep roof too which added to the hassle....bad choice for my first try ,but it was a triagular array shape due to shading issue sand dormer locations. That was why I opted for railess, since the cutting of rails would have been very time consuming. Bill Bill Hoffer PE NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC 420 SE Wyers St ,# 1823. P.O. Box 1823 White Salmon, WA 98672 bhoffer at sunergyengineeringservices.com Cell:(509)679-6165 sunergyengineeringservices.com On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 1:55 PM Corey Shalanski wrote: > I am wondering if anyone on the List has significant experience installing > rail-less racking systems (Quick Mount PV Quick Rack, Roof Tech E Mount > AIR, SnapNrack RL Universal, etc.) and can speak to the pros and cons > versus rail-based systems? > Also wondering if anyone has strong opinions regarding the lesser air gap > below modules with rail-less systems and how much, if at all, that might > affect production? *bonus points awarded for providing quantitative data > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- William Hoffer 420 SE Wyers Street P.O. Box 1823 White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 sunengser at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon May 18 14:36:41 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 11:36:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rail-less Racking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill, Wrenches I working with a Zep engineer years ago and still dont care to use any of them, wire management is an issue, anything that does get under the module is more difficult to clear, the modules are heavier with the zep product. Rails are now so versatile and cheap, easy to flat and align, place to mount the RSD with a good air gap. I was at a site the installed 24 modules with 2 techs and it was done in 6 + hrs. It was so wavy and loose wiring that it took the next day all day to make it flat and wires picked up.no savings there. But hey that's just me. On Mon, May 18, 2020, 11:06 AM Bill Hoffer wrote: > Cory > > I tried a railless S-5 system on a metal roof and will never do it again! > Looks great and very professional. The clearance under the modules is a > real problem for wire management and I had to switch out a bad > microinverter and it was really difficult compared to have a rails. Had to > disconnect all adjoining modules from the S-5 which allowed things to shift > a bit making replacement an absolute pain in the butt. It was a steep roof > too which added to the hassle....bad choice for my first try ,but it was a > triagular array shape due to shading issue sand dormer locations. That was > why I opted for railess, since the cutting of rails would have been very > time consuming. > > Bill > > Bill Hoffer PE > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC > 420 SE Wyers St ,# 1823. > P.O. Box 1823 > White Salmon, WA 98672 > bhoffer at sunergyengineeringservices.com Cell:(509)679-6165 > sunergyengineeringservices.com > > On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 1:55 PM Corey Shalanski > wrote: > >> I am wondering if anyone on the List has significant experience >> installing rail-less racking systems (Quick Mount PV Quick Rack, Roof Tech >> E Mount AIR, SnapNrack RL Universal, etc.) and can speak to the pros and >> cons versus rail-based systems? >> Also wondering if anyone has strong opinions regarding the lesser air gap >> below modules with rail-less systems and how much, if at all, that might >> affect production? *bonus points awarded for providing quantitative data >> >> -- >> Corey Shalanski >> Jah Light Solar >> Portland, Jamaica >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > William Hoffer > 420 SE Wyers Street > P.O. Box 1823 > White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 > sunengser at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon May 18 18:29:50 2020 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 16:29:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Programs for one line DWGs. Message-ID: <009701d62d63$d9762860$8c627920$@solarwork.com> Hey all you wise guys! I looked back in the archives & found a few recommendations on drawing programs. I had Design CAD-3D for 15 years and it was simple [2D & 3D] & worked fine. I had to upgrade recently as this program is now out of date and am currently overwhelmed with too many overly complex drawing programs. I need to draw boxes, lines, text, arrows, a few curves you know the tasks. I don't need to do 3D rendering of parts etc. I also need a program that has decent tutorials. What are you all using that is pretty basic for 2D drawings on a very up-to-date PC? Suffering with too many options. Thanks in advance. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Mon May 18 18:48:13 2020 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 15:48:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Programs for one line DWGs. In-Reply-To: <009701d62d63$d9762860$8c627920$@solarwork.com> References: <009701d62d63$d9762860$8c627920$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <03f701d62d66$69fd4b50$3df7e1f0$@greenwired.com> Hey Dana, I have been using AutoCAD Lite and it seems to do a very good job and I have been using it for single lines and permit packages for a couple years now. I have a college who uses LibreOffice Draw cause its free but he was doing a pretty big commercial project and it kept crashing. Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com Description: signature From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana Orzel Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 3:30 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Programs for one line DWGs. Hey all you wise guys! I looked back in the archives & found a few recommendations on drawing programs. I had Design CAD-3D for 15 years and it was simple [2D & 3D] & worked fine. I had to upgrade recently as this program is now out of date and am currently overwhelmed with too many overly complex drawing programs. I need to draw boxes, lines, text, arrows, a few curves you know the tasks. I don't need to do 3D rendering of parts etc. I also need a program that has decent tutorials. What are you all using that is pretty basic for 2D drawings on a very up-to-date PC? Suffering with too many options. Thanks in advance. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon May 18 18:32:11 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 15:32:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Programs for one line DWGs. In-Reply-To: <009701d62d63$d9762860$8c627920$@solarwork.com> References: <009701d62d63$d9762860$8c627920$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Dana: For block diagrams: Visio For physical parts and assemblies: Autocad For CAM: Fusion 360. William *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dana Orzel *Sent:* Monday, May 18, 2020 3:30 PM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Programs for one line DWGs. Hey all you wise guys! I looked back in the archives & found a few recommendations on drawing programs. I had Design CAD-3D for 15 years and it was simple [2D & 3D] & worked fine. I had to upgrade recently as this program is now out of date and am currently overwhelmed with too many overly complex drawing programs. I need to draw boxes, lines, text, arrows, a few curves you know the tasks. I don’t need to do 3D rendering of parts etc. I also need a program that has decent tutorials. What are you all using that is pretty basic for 2D drawings on a very up-to-date PC? Suffering with too many options… Thanks in advance. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com * Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Mon May 18 20:38:26 2020 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 17:38:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Programs for one line DWGs. In-Reply-To: <009701d62d63$d9762860$8c627920$@solarwork.com> References: <009701d62d63$d9762860$8c627920$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: AutoCAD LT On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 3:29 PM Dana Orzel wrote: > Hey all you wise guys! > > > > I looked back in the archives & found a few recommendations on drawing > programs. I had Design CAD-3D for 15 years and it was simple [2D & 3D] & > worked fine. I had to upgrade recently as this program is now out of date > and am currently overwhelmed with too many overly complex drawing programs. > > > > I need to draw boxes, lines, text, arrows, a few curves you know the > tasks. I don’t need to do 3D rendering of parts etc. I also need a program > that has decent tutorials. > > > > What are you all using that is pretty basic for 2D drawings on a very > up-to-date PC? > > > > Suffering with too many options… Thanks in advance. > > > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Loren Ortiz Technical PV Design Specialist - Worker Owner/Board Member loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* -- *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon May 18 21:03:27 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 19:03:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Programs for one line DWGs. In-Reply-To: References: <009701d62d63$d9762860$8c627920$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: I like AutoCad Lt as well. It does way more than I need but you can build a nice library On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 6:39 PM Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: > AutoCAD LT > > On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 3:29 PM Dana Orzel wrote: > >> Hey all you wise guys! >> >> >> >> I looked back in the archives & found a few recommendations on drawing >> programs. I had Design CAD-3D for 15 years and it was simple [2D & 3D] & >> worked fine. I had to upgrade recently as this program is now out of date >> and am currently overwhelmed with too many overly complex drawing programs. >> >> >> >> I need to draw boxes, lines, text, arrows, a few curves you know the >> tasks. I don’t need to do 3D rendering of parts etc. I also need a program >> that has decent tutorials. >> >> >> >> What are you all using that is pretty basic for 2D drawings on a very >> up-to-date PC? >> >> >> >> Suffering with too many options… Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> * >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com >> >> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * >> >> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > Loren Ortiz > Technical PV Design Specialist - Worker Owner/Board Member > > loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com > > *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* > > > > > > > > *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Tue May 19 08:35:09 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 08:35:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Programs for one line DWGs. In-Reply-To: <009701d62d63$d9762860$8c627920$@solarwork.com> References: <009701d62d63$d9762860$8c627920$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Been using Autocad lite (1999 version) for twenty years.  On 5/18/2020 6:30:00 PM, Dana Orzel wrote: Hey all you wise guys!   I looked back in the archives & found a few recommendations on drawing programs. I had Design CAD-3D for 15 years and it was simple [2D & 3D] & worked fine. I had to upgrade recently as this program is now out of date and am currently overwhelmed with too many overly complex drawing programs.   I need to draw boxes, lines, text, arrows, a few curves you know the tasks. I don’t need to do 3D rendering of parts etc. I also need a program that has decent tutorials.   What are you all using that is pretty basic for 2D drawings on a very up-to-date PC?   Suffering with too many options… Thanks in advance.     Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003                       dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136                       www.solarwork.com [http://www.solarwork.com/] "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  P Please consider the environment before printing this email.     -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue May 19 10:44:02 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 10:44:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Programs for one line DWGs. In-Reply-To: References: <009701d62d63$d9762860$8c627920$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <83ecc88f-b483-c378-818f-d8b083a9ce72@solarray.com> I'll throw another vote for Visio.  It has a very comprehensive electrical symbols library, and is much easier to use than AutoCad LT.  But that's just for doing 3 line diagrams, not complex parts. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/18/20 9:03 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > I like AutoCad Lt as well.  It does way more than I need but you can > build a nice library > > On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 6:39 PM Lorenzo Ortiz > wrote: > > AutoCAD LT > > On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 3:29 PM Dana Orzel > wrote: > > Hey all you wise guys! > > I looked back in the archives & found a few recommendations on > drawing programs. I had Design CAD-3D for 15 years and it was > simple [2D & 3D] & worked fine. I had to upgrade recently as > this program is now out of date and am currently overwhelmed > with too many overly complex drawing programs. > > I need to draw boxes, lines, text, arrows, a few curves you > know the tasks. I don’t need to do 3D rendering of parts etc. > I also need a program that has decent tutorials. > > What are you all using that is pretty basic for 2D drawings on > a very up-to-date PC? > > Suffering with too many options… Thanks in advance. > > Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > > _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" ___ > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > __ > > Loren Ortiz > Technical PV Design Specialist - Worker Owner/Board Member > > loren at cal-solar.com > californiasolarco.com > > *Main:530-274-3671 ext: 311 ****Fax:530-274-7518* > > ** > > > > > > *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue May 19 12:42:30 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 12:42:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Programs for one line DWGs. In-Reply-To: <009701d62d63$d9762860$8c627920$@solarwork.com> References: <009701d62d63$d9762860$8c627920$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: It's not cheap, but Trimble Layout (which comes with Sketchup Pro) is fantastic. Easy to use, templates, scrapbooks for common elements, and an inferencing engine that makes lining things up a breeze. You can import pictures, CAD drawings, PDFs and other formats to annotate. I know you don't need the 3D capabilities of Sketchup, but I feel Layout alone is worth the money even if you never use Sketchup. Unfortunately, you can't buy Layout alone. On a good note, they now have both purchase and subscription options. They also recently added tables and linked data to Excel. It is becoming a real challenger to full CAD packages and does a lot of things AutoCAD can't, especially when linked to Sketchup. They are unquestionably committed to continuing development (improvements and bug fixes) with annual major updates and maintenance updates as well. Jason Szumlanski On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 6:29 PM Dana Orzel wrote: > Hey all you wise guys! > > > > I looked back in the archives & found a few recommendations on drawing > programs. I had Design CAD-3D for 15 years and it was simple [2D & 3D] & > worked fine. I had to upgrade recently as this program is now out of date > and am currently overwhelmed with too many overly complex drawing programs. > > > > I need to draw boxes, lines, text, arrows, a few curves you know the > tasks. I don’t need to do 3D rendering of parts etc. I also need a program > that has decent tutorials. > > > > What are you all using that is pretty basic for 2D drawings on a very > up-to-date PC? > > > > Suffering with too many options… Thanks in advance. > > > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Tue May 19 13:21:22 2020 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 10:21:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Programs for one line DWGs. In-Reply-To: References: <009701d62d63$d9762860$8c627920$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: I have been using DraftSight. It's an AutoCAD LT clone. Handy for when clients that send me AutoCAD (dwg) files. However, they have brought out a 3D version. Eric Smiley, P.Eng. Project Manager, North Island E: eric at vecoop.ca T: 1-888-386-0116 ext 702 (toll free) C: 250-703-6004 W: viridianenergy.ca RENEWABLE POWER NOW On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 09:42, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > It's not cheap, but Trimble Layout (which comes with Sketchup Pro) is > fantastic. Easy to use, templates, scrapbooks for common elements, and an > inferencing engine that makes lining things up a breeze. You can import > pictures, CAD drawings, PDFs and other formats to annotate. I know you > don't need the 3D capabilities of Sketchup, but I feel Layout alone is > worth the money even if you never use Sketchup. Unfortunately, you can't > buy Layout alone. On a good note, they now have both purchase and > subscription options. > > They also recently added tables and linked data to Excel. It is becoming a > real challenger to full CAD packages and does a lot of things AutoCAD > can't, especially when linked to Sketchup. They are unquestionably > committed to continuing development (improvements and bug fixes) with > annual major updates and maintenance updates as well. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 6:29 PM Dana Orzel wrote: > >> Hey all you wise guys! >> >> >> >> I looked back in the archives & found a few recommendations on drawing >> programs. I had Design CAD-3D for 15 years and it was simple [2D & 3D] & >> worked fine. I had to upgrade recently as this program is now out of date >> and am currently overwhelmed with too many overly complex drawing programs. >> >> >> >> I need to draw boxes, lines, text, arrows, a few curves you know the >> tasks. I don’t need to do 3D rendering of parts etc. I also need a program >> that has decent tutorials. >> >> >> >> What are you all using that is pretty basic for 2D drawings on a very >> up-to-date PC? >> >> >> >> Suffering with too many options… Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> * >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com >> >> >> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * >> >> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Tue May 19 15:36:59 2020 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 13:36:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 60 cell Solarworld module needed Message-ID: <03e201d62e14$dd8c4770$98a4d650$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: I’m getting to be a clearinghouse for certain goods, I think. I have a fellow looking for any 60 cell Solarworld framed module; he’s trying to match up to a SW300 mono Silver framed. His system has optimizers, so any 60cell SW module would generally work. Please feel free to contact me off list. This fellow is located in Hammond, Indiana. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Tue May 19 17:48:10 2020 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 21:48:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 In-Reply-To: <0055ae48-741f-a1f1-7ea4-973ecdc3e50d@solarray.com> References: <01272a65-632d-1661-4842-9e39fce49819@solarray.com> , <0055ae48-741f-a1f1-7ea4-973ecdc3e50d@solarray.com> Message-ID: Yeah, I was going to say, I don't think a coms failure of any kind could take down an Outback charge controller. Coms failures can certainly impact Outback inverters that are stacked... I always insist on using a Mate3s on Outback jobs where it's a large enough system that it doesn't impact the total cost too much, but on tiny systems, it can be cost-prohibitive. I'm not an Outback only guy, but over the last 9 years of being in the off-grid business, I've used more Outback than all other brands combined. The main reason I always try to use a Mate3s is that from an installer's perspective, a system will be more trouble-free if the customer can understand what's going on (how much they're using, how much solar they're getting, and how full the batteries are), and the Mate3 is the most userfriendly interface I have seen anywhere. Victron has an interface that might be second best, but it makes the Mate3s look cheap. Secondly, a system will be more trouble-free when you can troubleshoot the system over the phone. 3/4 of the service calls I get where the customer has an Outback system can be fixed by the customer over the phone because they all have the Mate 3 or Mate3s, so they can read me the event logged in the events screen, and I can tell them which buttons to push, etc. I can think of all the times where a customer's aging generator doesn't put out as much power as it once did, and the AC Input Amps needs to be reduced, or the generator doesn't run as well when it's super cold out, so it needs to be reduced, or the customer overloaded the inverter and didn't realize it, now they know why it shut off without a service call... and the list goes on. The Mate 3 was a point of failure that caused a few service calls on its own, none of which shut down a system, but it saved me so many trips and service calls that overall, I'm certain that it has saved me hundreds of miles over the last 9 years. Therefore, as far as I'm concerned, this means that it makes the system more reliable. Now, I realize that in this group, I'm still kind of green, only having been working off-grid for 9 years, and I realize that almost none of what I've said would apply to the old mate... that thing was so terribly non-user friendly that I've never met an off-gridder in Utah who actually knew how to use his old Mate, though early on, most had one. -Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Ray Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 10:45 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 I've had them shut inverters down for both the brands you mentioned. The comm failures that took out controllers were the Midnite "Follow Me" setup. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/17/20 9:46 PM, Jay wrote: Hi Ray In my experience I’ve had plenty of hub and component/comm failures but I’ve never had it shut down the fndc or charge controllers with OB or Schneider equipment. I’m wondering if you have? Thx Jay Peltz power. On May 17, 2020, at 6:21 PM, Ray wrote:  I don't connect to the HUB or Mate if I don't have to; both to avoid issues with the customers changing programming, but also to save the customer money. However, the #1 reason is that when all the equipment is interconnected, it is all dependent. A failure in a comm cable or single piece of equipment can cause all the controllers to shut down. I just don't think the benefits of com connection out weigh the loss of redundancy. I have many systems with multiple charge controllers, and I have seen everything from a bad temp sensor to a single failed controller take the other controllers off line too. Without the interconnection, a failed controller will just drop the system to half power, not to zero production. This isn't just with Outback, I follow this reasoning with Midnite and Magnum as well. I often mix equipment (Magnum inverter, Outback Controller) so comm connection isn't a possibility anyway. We might be missing some bells and whistles, but our systems stay operational in more situations. Basically I'm not happy enough with any single manufacturer to give them a monopoly with my designs. I've always built our systems with the best equipment we can get for that particular situation. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/17/20 7:38 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: Hi Ray, I'm curious, do you avoid have the FM100 on the Hub to avoid clients changing the programming or have you seen some other issues? I have some of them out there and they seem to be solid, all Hub 10.3 connected. On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 3:48 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > wrote: I have little experience with arc fault detection because I do not use them offgrid. Could it save one from starting a wildfire? My experience is I have never had a ground mount start a wildfire and even a bad panel is pretty contained in a failure. I just know that I make a small fortune replacing grid tie inverter AFD's that failsafe in the no solar mode. Definitely do not want another way to lose power offgrid. There are plenty already:) Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 15 May 2020 11:03:11 -0700, Jay > wrote: Hi William, that warning isn't on the AFCI one, Jay Peltz power. On May 15, 2020, at 10:41 AM, William Miller > wrote: Jay: On the FM100 landing page. The warning is pasted below. Due to the different voltage ratings, OutBack Power does not recommend mixing the FM100-300VDC with the FM60 or FM80-150VDC controllers on the same battery bank. Interestingly the warning is not seen on the FM100 AFCI landing page. I thought I saw this also in one of the Owner's manuals but I looked today and can't find it there. Interesting... I have a client that wants to add a fourth PV array to a system with three FM80s. This will require a fourth charge controller. Being able to run smaller wire in the existing conduits is an attractive proposition, making the FM100 a desirable approach. I now have to figure out if I can add the FM100-AFCI (which is apparently the only version available) to a system with three FM80s, and if I do, what do I do with the existing GFDI breaker and how do I arrange the DC bond? There is a lot to consider here. BTW, I was told by a tech support person for an on-line sales firm that the original FM100 did not have the AFCI but those units have been discontinued. Now all FM100s have the AFCI capability. I am weighing if I want AFCI if it is not required. My territory includes central California wild lands so I suppose I should take advantage of any fire safety means at my disposal... William From: Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 7:34 AM To: william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 Hi William Yes downsizing breaker to meet load is no problem. And getting wire that big into it with 1" KO is a pain. I'm pretty sure any hub will work, needs 3S mate Where in the manual did you find the "don't mix with other 60/80 controllers? Jay Peltz power On May 15, 2020, at 12:46 AM, William Miller > wrote: Friends: I have occasion to try the FM100 charge controller. I am wondering of anyone had found any quirks with implementing this device. I have a few specific questions: 1. I want to avoid AFCI unless mandated. Will this be defeated if I don't run the leads through the sense coil? (There is an AFCI and non-AFCI version but I can't seem to find the non-AFCI version anywhere.) 2. I noticed the manual indicates you are not supposed to mix the FM100 with the FM80 or 60 in the same battery system. This negates it for one project I had in mind. I am curious as to why this is. Anyone know? 3. Will the FM100 work with a standard hub? 4. I suppose this unit requires a 125 amp breaker. If the PV array cannot support that full 100 amps I might down-size the OCPD accordingly. Anyone contemplate this question? Thanks in advance. William _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed May 20 09:33:37 2020 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 08:33:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radians x 8 don't seem to sell back as much as they could in this microgrid Message-ID: <01d901d62eab$449b44c0$cdd1ce40$@solarcentex.com> Hello wrenches: I have a rural "micro-grid" system with eight 8048 Radian, twelve FM80s, and paralleled RE2700 batteries. I'll spare you the details of how we got here (this started as half this size bt we doubled and enlarged to micrgrid support instead of single ranch dwelling.) Because of the increases, the ability to network all together with hubs is not possible. It seemed as if the FM80s were not producing as much as they could. I've checked the charging parameters and feel good about those. All voltages are calibrated across the FM80s as well as the Mate 3. The Mate 3 is connected to the eight inverters only. The FM80s are not networked together; I was concerned about that until I read an earlier post here. Yesterday, I left with an impression that my challenge might be the inverters not selling to their maximum potential. It seemed like they certainly had more voltage "space" before they hit the lower threshold for sell voltage but the inverters just were not making as much I expected them to make. Only indication to give you is that the inverters, as seen on the Mate 3, would cycle up to a max about 11kw of selling back to the grid and then return back to 4KW of selling (while meeting minimal household loads on during home reconstruction. It would hit this peak and cycle down before it hit the sell voltage. Each port for each inverter is set for 50A. The charger for each port is set for 30A (even though to be quite honest I just do not know why/how the charger must be on for a grid-tied system with PV charging.) Any thoughts or recommendations? I waited for a return call form Outback but nothing yet and know somebody here will have some ideas. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 37150 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed May 20 16:23:18 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 16:23:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radians x 8 don't seem to sell back as much as they could in this microgrid In-Reply-To: <01d901d62eab$449b44c0$cdd1ce40$@solarcentex.com> References: <01d901d62eab$449b44c0$cdd1ce40$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: I have had a hard time getting FM60s (not my install) to sell at the same rate even though they had identical PV on them. They were all on the same Hub and the voltages were the same. I never did explain that. It's been a while but I think that client just gave up because the cost to research and correct it became too high for the relatively small system. I wouldn't install a DC Coupled grid interconnected system today if the primary purpose was grid selling. AC Coupling has so many advantages. DC Coupled systems always have to have me thinking that they could be selling more. They don't have adequate monitoring for selling. I'm even thinking about going to all AC Coupling even for off-grid. I don't do a ton of off-grid, but I have always been disappointed in the data monitoring and setup interfaces for the various brands of charge controller and how they interact with inverter/chargers. I'm willing to take the efficiency hit to just get good data on the PV output. Jason Szumlanski On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 11:49 AM wrote: > Hello wrenches: > > > > I have a rural “micro-grid” system with eight 8048 Radian, twelve FM80s, > and paralleled RE2700 batteries. I’ll spare you the details of how we got > here (this started as half this size bt we doubled and enlarged to micrgrid > support instead of single ranch dwelling.) > > > > Because of the increases, the ability to network all together with hubs is > not possible. > > > > It seemed as if the FM80s were not producing as much as they could. I’ve > checked the charging parameters and feel good about those. All voltages are > calibrated across the FM80s as well as the Mate 3. The Mate 3 is connected > to the eight inverters only. The FM80s are not networked together; I was > concerned about that until I read an earlier post here. > > > > Yesterday, I left with an impression that my challenge might be the > inverters not selling to their maximum potential. It seemed like they > certainly had more voltage “space” before they hit the lower threshold for > sell voltage but the inverters just were not making as much I expected them > to make. > > > > Only indication to give you is that the inverters, as seen on the Mate 3, > would cycle up to a max about 11kw of selling back to the grid and then > return back to 4KW of selling (while meeting minimal household loads on > during home reconstruction. It would hit this peak and cycle down before it > hit the sell voltage. > > > > Each port for each inverter is set for 50A. The charger for each port is > set for 30A (even though to be quite honest I just do not know why/how the > charger must be on for a grid-tied system with PV charging…) > > > > Any thoughts or recommendations? I waited for a return call form Outback > but nothing yet and know somebody here will have some ideas. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 37150 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed May 20 20:52:01 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 18:52:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radians x 8 don't seem to sell back as much as they could in this microgrid In-Reply-To: References: <01d901d62eab$449b44c0$cdd1ce40$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Hi Scot, Tell us much more about your set-points and entire set-up. Screen shots of OpticsRE can help if that's available. Are your charge controllers dropping into float or float MPPT? Or constantly in bulk? *I can't recommend that you put them in grid-tied mode although that is supposed to work.* What grid-input mode are you using? (Grid-tied, mini-grid, back-up, UPS, or ?) This will have significant impact on what will happen in various circumstances. What's your offset? Is offset enabled? What's your sell voltage? Is sell enabled? The charge controllers should force power onto the DC buss, while the inverter should sell it away. There is a constant tug of war between devices. If we assume you can sell all of the solar available, then be aware that there are charge algorithms that take some time to equal out. For example, you may see the DC buss voltage increase while the inverter gears up to sell, after a bit of time, you may see the inverter overshoot the sell voltage a bit and back off to allow it to recover. Do the calculations and verify you are getting approximately what you expect over the course of a day, noting that there is a lot more inefficiencies in these systems than straight grid-tied. If the charge controllers are clipping power, be sure that the absorb time is long and the absorb voltage is well above the offset voltage. Here is a good article about what is happening http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/offset_tech_note_correc.pdf There is a lot of programming that will need to be correct for optimization. *Be sure to calibrate voltage across devices.* These can work well, but are far from automatic or easy to program. Good luck and more info will really help us help you. I highly recommend OpticsRE connection if possible Thanks On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 2:23 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I have had a hard time getting FM60s (not my install) to sell at the same > rate even though they had identical PV on them. They were all on the same > Hub and the voltages were the same. I never did explain that. It's been a > while but I think that client just gave up because the cost to research and > correct it became too high for the relatively small system. > > I wouldn't install a DC Coupled grid interconnected system today if the > primary purpose was grid selling. AC Coupling has so many advantages. DC > Coupled systems always have to have me thinking that they could be selling > more. They don't have adequate monitoring for selling. I'm even thinking > about going to all AC Coupling even for off-grid. I don't do a ton of > off-grid, but I have always been disappointed in the data monitoring and > setup interfaces for the various brands of charge controller and how they > interact with inverter/chargers. I'm willing to take the efficiency hit to > just get good data on the PV output. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > > On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 11:49 AM wrote: > >> Hello wrenches: >> >> >> >> I have a rural “micro-grid” system with eight 8048 Radian, twelve FM80s, >> and paralleled RE2700 batteries. I’ll spare you the details of how we got >> here (this started as half this size bt we doubled and enlarged to micrgrid >> support instead of single ranch dwelling.) >> >> >> >> Because of the increases, the ability to network all together with hubs >> is not possible. >> >> >> >> It seemed as if the FM80s were not producing as much as they could. I’ve >> checked the charging parameters and feel good about those. All voltages are >> calibrated across the FM80s as well as the Mate 3. The Mate 3 is connected >> to the eight inverters only. The FM80s are not networked together; I was >> concerned about that until I read an earlier post here. >> >> >> >> Yesterday, I left with an impression that my challenge might be the >> inverters not selling to their maximum potential. It seemed like they >> certainly had more voltage “space” before they hit the lower threshold for >> sell voltage but the inverters just were not making as much I expected them >> to make. >> >> >> >> Only indication to give you is that the inverters, as seen on the Mate 3, >> would cycle up to a max about 11kw of selling back to the grid and then >> return back to 4KW of selling (while meeting minimal household loads on >> during home reconstruction. It would hit this peak and cycle down before it >> hit the sell voltage. >> >> >> >> Each port for each inverter is set for 50A. The charger for each port is >> set for 30A (even though to be quite honest I just do not know why/how the >> charger must be on for a grid-tied system with PV charging…) >> >> >> >> Any thoughts or recommendations? I waited for a return call form Outback >> but nothing yet and know somebody here will have some ideas. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 37150 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu May 21 09:57:14 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 09:57:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng Message-ID: I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if there is in fact a fault. I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu May 21 09:39:44 2020 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 08:39:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radians x 8 don't seem to sell back as much as they could in this microgrid In-Reply-To: References: <01d901d62eab$449b44c0$cdd1ce40$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <00ee01d62f75$4a141ec0$de3c5c40$@solarcentex.com> Thanks, Mac. Outback support was kind enough to call me on the phone and discuss. Thank you Outback – you’re the best on knowledge of your product! Back to where I’m going with this. I’m going to get in the installer menu to ensure there are not sell limits enabled that were not immediately apparent from the standard Mate views. In my mind, this corroborates my gut feel that the inverters seemed throttled back. I will disable the GT mode on the charge controllers individually across all 12. I don’t have a good feel as to what I think this will do going forward but that will be one of my last steps. Before that, I’m going to check that charging parameters (using the charger hard key) are not what are unsatisfied and perhaps preventing full Sell mode. Perhaps…an unstable grid out there is constantly resetting the grid connection timer back to 5 minutes. None of this an original thought – all from Outback. Mac, I did calibrate the voltage across the charge controllers and the master inverter, via the Mate. I may go back and check calibration at the other inverters / ports too as I have not done that. Of note, the Mate will allow calibration up to .8 volts and this was just barely not enough to bring them to the charge controllers level but before I go down that rabbit hole…I feel like I want all devices “seeing” the same voltage but I recognize, to your point below, that there may in fact be voltage deviations between devices as devices load and unload. So…is “calibration” brining each device to the true voltage measured at that particular device or is “calibration really a normalization of voltages across the system, with some voltage being the reference point? As for mode – in grid-tied mode. Remember there is no digital network connection between the inverters/Mate to the CCs. All the basic level settings (Sell enabled, sell voltage below float…) have all been set. Will keep all updated so we can learn on this one. Scot From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 7:52 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radians x 8 don't seem to sell back as much as they could in this microgrid Hi Scot, Tell us much more about your set-points and entire set-up. Screen shots of OpticsRE can help if that's available. Are your charge controllers dropping into float or float MPPT? Or constantly in bulk? I can't recommend that you put them in grid-tied mode although that is supposed to work. What grid-input mode are you using? (Grid-tied, mini-grid, back-up, UPS, or ?) This will have significant impact on what will happen in various circumstances. What's your offset? Is offset enabled? What's your sell voltage? Is sell enabled? The charge controllers should force power onto the DC buss, while the inverter should sell it away. There is a constant tug of war between devices. If we assume you can sell all of the solar available, then be aware that there are charge algorithms that take some time to equal out. For example, you may see the DC buss voltage increase while the inverter gears up to sell, after a bit of time, you may see the inverter overshoot the sell voltage a bit and back off to allow it to recover. Do the calculations and verify you are getting approximately what you expect over the course of a day, noting that there is a lot more inefficiencies in these systems than straight grid-tied. If the charge controllers are clipping power, be sure that the absorb time is long and the absorb voltage is well above the offset voltage. Here is a good article about what is happening http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/offset_tech_note_correc.pdf There is a lot of programming that will need to be correct for optimization. Be sure to calibrate voltage across devices. These can work well, but are far from automatic or easy to program. Good luck and more info will really help us help you. I highly recommend OpticsRE connection if possible Thanks On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 2:23 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: I have had a hard time getting FM60s (not my install) to sell at the same rate even though they had identical PV on them. They were all on the same Hub and the voltages were the same. I never did explain that. It's been a while but I think that client just gave up because the cost to research and correct it became too high for the relatively small system. I wouldn't install a DC Coupled grid interconnected system today if the primary purpose was grid selling. AC Coupling has so many advantages. DC Coupled systems always have to have me thinking that they could be selling more. They don't have adequate monitoring for selling. I'm even thinking about going to all AC Coupling even for off-grid. I don't do a ton of off-grid, but I have always been disappointed in the data monitoring and setup interfaces for the various brands of charge controller and how they interact with inverter/chargers. I'm willing to take the efficiency hit to just get good data on the PV output. Jason Szumlanski On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 11:49 AM > wrote: Hello wrenches: I have a rural “micro-grid” system with eight 8048 Radian, twelve FM80s, and paralleled RE2700 batteries. I’ll spare you the details of how we got here (this started as half this size bt we doubled and enlarged to micrgrid support instead of single ranch dwelling.) Because of the increases, the ability to network all together with hubs is not possible. It seemed as if the FM80s were not producing as much as they could. I’ve checked the charging parameters and feel good about those. All voltages are calibrated across the FM80s as well as the Mate 3. The Mate 3 is connected to the eight inverters only. The FM80s are not networked together; I was concerned about that until I read an earlier post here. Yesterday, I left with an impression that my challenge might be the inverters not selling to their maximum potential. It seemed like they certainly had more voltage “space” before they hit the lower threshold for sell voltage but the inverters just were not making as much I expected them to make. Only indication to give you is that the inverters, as seen on the Mate 3, would cycle up to a max about 11kw of selling back to the grid and then return back to 4KW of selling (while meeting minimal household loads on during home reconstruction. It would hit this peak and cycle down before it hit the sell voltage. Each port for each inverter is set for 50A. The charger for each port is set for 30A (even though to be quite honest I just do not know why/how the charger must be on for a grid-tied system with PV charging…) Any thoughts or recommendations? I waited for a return call form Outback but nothing yet and know somebody here will have some ideas. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 39235 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chadwaits at netzerosolar.net Thu May 21 10:11:51 2020 From: chadwaits at netzerosolar.net (Chad Waits) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 07:11:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Jason, We have experienced this on multiple systems over the past 2 years. We have one system where 1 inverter pops an entire sub offline that has 72 other inverters in it (screenshots attached). The only way we have been able to isolate the problem inverter(s) is to start first with isolating circuits, and then unplugging individual inverters until the culprit is found. We've had multiple cases escalated to top engineers and we have yet to get an explanation of what is going on. Obviously something in the bad inverter(s) is creating a catastrophic short but what is causing that has not been revealed to us. [image: Screen Shot 2020-05-21 at 7.10.24 AM.png] [image: Screen Shot 2020-05-21 at 7.09.59 AM.png] I'd appreciate anything you may find out in your investigations. Thanks! Chad Waits President-Net Zero Solar Cell: (520) 270-4873 On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 6:57 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and Enphase > IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters each > coming into an Enphase AC combiner. > > What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and > the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been > tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 > months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept > investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, > etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. > > Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different > branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We > checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely > that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched > out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. > > I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers > crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another > diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One > thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible > disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line > fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if > there is in fact a fault. > > I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase systems > in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned out to be > branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on different > breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault which > eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out of > it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This case > seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2020-05-21 at 7.10.24 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 213145 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2020-05-21 at 7.09.59 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 211353 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu May 21 10:15:37 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 10:15:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm guessing I don't have a bad inverter problem since this is occurring on two different strings. But I guess I can't rule it out. I should also have mentioned that the breakers apparently trip in the middle of the night more often than not. I know that because the envoy goes offline. So this does not seem to be a power production issue. The inverters should be sleeping at the time that the breakers trip. I also ruled out rain. The first couple of times I suspected something got wet, but subsequent tripping occurred during dry spells. On Thu, May 21, 2020, 10:12 AM Chad Waits wrote: > Hey Jason, > > We have experienced this on multiple systems over the past 2 years. We > have one system where 1 inverter pops an entire sub offline that has 72 > other inverters in it (screenshots attached). The only way we have been > able to isolate the problem inverter(s) is to start first with isolating > circuits, and then unplugging individual inverters until the culprit is > found. We've had multiple cases escalated to top engineers and we have yet > to get an explanation of what is going on. Obviously something in the bad > inverter(s) is creating a catastrophic short but what is causing that has > not been revealed to us. > > [image: Screen Shot 2020-05-21 at 7.10.24 AM.png] > [image: Screen Shot 2020-05-21 at 7.09.59 AM.png] > > I'd appreciate anything you may find out in your investigations. > > Thanks! > > Chad Waits > President-Net Zero Solar > Cell: (520) 270-4873 > > > > On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 6:57 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and >> Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters >> each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >> >> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and >> the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been >> tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 >> months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, >> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >> >> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different >> branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We >> checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely >> that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched >> out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. >> >> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers >> crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another >> diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One >> thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible >> disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line >> fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if >> there is in fact a fault. >> >> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase systems >> in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned out to be >> branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on different >> breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault which >> eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out of >> it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This case >> seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2020-05-21 at 7.10.24 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 213145 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2020-05-21 at 7.09.59 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 211353 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chadwaits at netzerosolar.net Thu May 21 10:19:35 2020 From: chadwaits at netzerosolar.net (Chad Waits) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 07:19:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah. We've had them trip in the evening as well. Just never come back online when the sun comes up. We've replaced breakers and meggered all wires. The only solution we've found is isolating that one bad inverter and replacing it. really frustrating. Chad Waits President-Net Zero Solar Cell: (520) 270-4873 On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 7:15 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I'm guessing I don't have a bad inverter problem since this is occurring > on two different strings. But I guess I can't rule it out. > > I should also have mentioned that the breakers apparently trip in the > middle of the night more often than not. I know that because the envoy goes > offline. So this does not seem to be a power production issue. The > inverters should be sleeping at the time that the breakers trip. > > I also ruled out rain. The first couple of times I suspected something got > wet, but subsequent tripping occurred during dry spells. > > On Thu, May 21, 2020, 10:12 AM Chad Waits > wrote: > >> Hey Jason, >> >> We have experienced this on multiple systems over the past 2 years. We >> have one system where 1 inverter pops an entire sub offline that has 72 >> other inverters in it (screenshots attached). The only way we have been >> able to isolate the problem inverter(s) is to start first with isolating >> circuits, and then unplugging individual inverters until the culprit is >> found. We've had multiple cases escalated to top engineers and we have yet >> to get an explanation of what is going on. Obviously something in the bad >> inverter(s) is creating a catastrophic short but what is causing that has >> not been revealed to us. >> >> [image: Screen Shot 2020-05-21 at 7.10.24 AM.png] >> [image: Screen Shot 2020-05-21 at 7.09.59 AM.png] >> >> I'd appreciate anything you may find out in your investigations. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Chad Waits >> President-Net Zero Solar >> Cell: (520) 270-4873 >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 6:57 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and >>> Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters >>> each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>> >>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and >>> the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been >>> tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 >>> months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >>> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, >>> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>> >>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different >>> branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We >>> checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely >>> that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched >>> out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. >>> >>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers >>> crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another >>> diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One >>> thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible >>> disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line >>> fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if >>> there is in fact a fault. >>> >>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase >>> systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned >>> out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on >>> different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault >>> which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out >>> of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This >>> case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2020-05-21 at 7.10.24 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 213145 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2020-05-21 at 7.09.59 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 211353 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu May 21 10:28:26 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 07:28:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A2509D3-329D-47D0-B172-408E97E5684C@gmail.com> Hi Chad Was the enphase monitoring able to locate the bad inverter? Or trial and error? Jay Peltz power. > On May 21, 2020, at 7:19 AM, Chad Waits wrote: > >  > Yeah. We've had them trip in the evening as well. Just never come back online when the sun comes up. We've replaced breakers and meggered all wires. The only solution we've found is isolating that one bad inverter and replacing it. > > really frustrating. > > Chad Waits > President-Net Zero Solar > Cell: (520) 270-4873 > > > >> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 7:15 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> I'm guessing I don't have a bad inverter problem since this is occurring on two different strings. But I guess I can't rule it out. >> >> I should also have mentioned that the breakers apparently trip in the middle of the night more often than not. I know that because the envoy goes offline. So this does not seem to be a power production issue. The inverters should be sleeping at the time that the breakers trip. >> >> I also ruled out rain. The first couple of times I suspected something got wet, but subsequent tripping occurred during dry spells. >> >>> On Thu, May 21, 2020, 10:12 AM Chad Waits wrote: >>> Hey Jason, >>> >>> We have experienced this on multiple systems over the past 2 years. We have one system where 1 inverter pops an entire sub offline that has 72 other inverters in it (screenshots attached). The only way we have been able to isolate the problem inverter(s) is to start first with isolating circuits, and then unplugging individual inverters until the culprit is found. We've had multiple cases escalated to top engineers and we have yet to get an explanation of what is going on. Obviously something in the bad inverter(s) is creating a catastrophic short but what is causing that has not been revealed to us. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I'd appreciate anything you may find out in your investigations. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Chad Waits >>> President-Net Zero Solar >>> Cell: (520) 270-4873 >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 6:57 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>>> >>>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>>> >>>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. >>>> >>>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if there is in fact a fault. >>>> >>>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu May 21 10:01:46 2020 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 09:01:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <014a01d62f78$5de7c660$19b75320$@solarcentex.com> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string’s associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped again. We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the breaker was less than perfect from the start as we’ve add equally nice days since. This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra careful going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published… My story. Scot From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if there is in fact a fault. I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chadwaits at netzerosolar.net Thu May 21 11:15:07 2020 From: chadwaits at netzerosolar.net (Chad Waits) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 08:15:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: <7A2509D3-329D-47D0-B172-408E97E5684C@gmail.com> References: <7A2509D3-329D-47D0-B172-408E97E5684C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Trial and error only unfortunately. Chad Waits President-Net Zero Solar Cell: (520) 270-4873 On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 8:14 AM Jay wrote: > Hi Chad > > Was the enphase monitoring able to locate the bad inverter? Or trial and > error? > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > On May 21, 2020, at 7:19 AM, Chad Waits > wrote: > >  > Yeah. We've had them trip in the evening as well. Just never come back > online when the sun comes up. We've replaced breakers and meggered all > wires. The only solution we've found is isolating that one bad inverter and > replacing it. > > really frustrating. > > Chad Waits > President-Net Zero Solar > Cell: (520) 270-4873 > > > > On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 7:15 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I'm guessing I don't have a bad inverter problem since this is occurring >> on two different strings. But I guess I can't rule it out. >> >> I should also have mentioned that the breakers apparently trip in the >> middle of the night more often than not. I know that because the envoy goes >> offline. So this does not seem to be a power production issue. The >> inverters should be sleeping at the time that the breakers trip. >> >> I also ruled out rain. The first couple of times I suspected something >> got wet, but subsequent tripping occurred during dry spells. >> >> On Thu, May 21, 2020, 10:12 AM Chad Waits >> wrote: >> >>> Hey Jason, >>> >>> We have experienced this on multiple systems over the past 2 years. We >>> have one system where 1 inverter pops an entire sub offline that has 72 >>> other inverters in it (screenshots attached). The only way we have been >>> able to isolate the problem inverter(s) is to start first with isolating >>> circuits, and then unplugging individual inverters until the culprit is >>> found. We've had multiple cases escalated to top engineers and we have yet >>> to get an explanation of what is going on. Obviously something in the bad >>> inverter(s) is creating a catastrophic short but what is causing that has >>> not been revealed to us. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I'd appreciate anything you may find out in your investigations. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Chad Waits >>> President-Net Zero Solar >>> Cell: (520) 270-4873 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 6:57 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and >>>> Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters >>>> each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>>> >>>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and >>>> the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been >>>> tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 >>>> months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >>>> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, >>>> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>>> >>>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different >>>> branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We >>>> checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely >>>> that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched >>>> out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. >>>> >>>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers >>>> crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another >>>> diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One >>>> thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible >>>> disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line >>>> fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if >>>> there is in fact a fault. >>>> >>>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase >>>> systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned >>>> out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on >>>> different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault >>>> which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out >>>> of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This >>>> case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri May 22 00:30:36 2020 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 21:30:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Finally, we recycle In-Reply-To: References: <7A2509D3-329D-47D0-B172-408E97E5684C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9456f828-8baf-ad8c-9368-fcf12dfef4c8@psln.com> Awhile back there was some discussion about walking the talk regarding recycling old, damaged, 'golf-balled",heritage PVs.  I just wanted to share my recent experience with Recycle PV solar.             We had quite a variety of damaged, out of spec, freight-forked PVs that needed to be gone to reclaim some space in the warehouse.  Through Sam Vanderhoof, I was put in touch with Lamar Green and he was very helpful in guiding us through the simple process of getting a pallet of PVs to him in the Reno/Sparks area.  This is not a free service, it can't be. Someone is dealing with our problem (at this point its toxic waste) and I am willing to pay for that service.             I was close enough to be able to deliver them to him however, he was also willing to orchestrate a freight pick-up from my loading dock, yes at an added cost.  Lamar's contact number is:  916-201-3561             Just think,  you would be able to put that "We recycle our old, damaged PVs" feather in your cap in your website. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FRS_working_logo, 50%.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 8424 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 22 10:09:11 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 07:09:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Finally, we recycle In-Reply-To: <9456f828-8baf-ad8c-9368-fcf12dfef4c8@psln.com> References: <7A2509D3-329D-47D0-B172-408E97E5684C@gmail.com> <9456f828-8baf-ad8c-9368-fcf12dfef4c8@psln.com> Message-ID: <30e5de413c7c53c61d0a6dd9a3902a49@127.0.0.1> Hi Bill, Do you think they will be dealing with lithium batteries? I will call if you don't know. You don't want to know about what is going on with them in the central Sierra. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 21 May 2020 21:30:36 -0700, frenergy wrote: Awhile back there was some discussion about walking the talk regarding recycling old, damaged, 'golf-balled",heritage PVs. I just wanted to share my recent experience with Recycle PV solar. We had quite a variety of damaged, out of spec, freight-forked PVs that needed to be gone to reclaim some space in the warehouse. Through Sam Vanderhoof, I was put in touch with Lamar Green and he was very helpful in guiding us through the simple process of getting a pallet of PVs to him in the Reno/Sparks area. This is not a free service, it can't be. Someone is dealing with our problem (at this point its toxic waste) and I am willing to pay for that service. I was close enough to be able to deliver them to him however, he was also willing to orchestrate a freight pick-up from my loading dock, yes at an added cost. Lamar's contact number is: 916-201-3561 Just think, you would be able to put that "We recycle our old, damaged PVs" feather in your cap in your website. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net [3] [4] Virus-free. www.avast.com [5] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.frenergy.net [4] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon [5] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FRS_working_logo, 50%.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 8424 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Fri May 22 19:11:18 2020 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 23:11:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Finally, we recycle In-Reply-To: <30e5de413c7c53c61d0a6dd9a3902a49@127.0.0.1> References: <7A2509D3-329D-47D0-B172-408E97E5684C@gmail.com> <9456f828-8baf-ad8c-9368-fcf12dfef4c8@psln.com> <30e5de413c7c53c61d0a6dd9a3902a49@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <1081615029.2447514.1590189078246@mail.yahoo.com> I am just reading an article in "North America Clean Energy".  Seems there is an outfit out of Phoenix that may do the same. Responsible Solar Waste Disposal | We Recycle Solar | | | | Responsible Solar Waste Disposal | We Recycle Solar We Recycle Solar offers pioneering end-of-life solar solutions including PV disposal, decommissioning, and more ... | | |  Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com On Friday, May 22, 2020, 7:16:56 AM PDT, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Hi Bill,   Do you think they will be dealing with lithium batteries? I will call if you don't know. You don't want to know about what is going on with them in the central Sierra.  Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 21 May 2020 21:30:36 -0700, frenergy wrote: Awhile back there was some discussion about walking the talk regarding recycling old, damaged, 'golf-balled",heritage PVs.  I just wanted to share my recent experience with Recycle PV solar.             We had quite a variety of damaged, out of spec, freight-forked PVs that needed to be gone to reclaim some space in the warehouse.  Through Sam Vanderhoof, I was put in touch with Lamar Green and he was very helpful in guiding us through the simple process of getting a pallet of PVs to him in the Reno/Sparks area.  This is not a free service, it can't be.  Someone is dealing with our problem (at this point its toxic waste) and I am willing to pay for that service.             I was close enough to be able to deliver them to him however, he was also willing to orchestrate a freight pick-up from my loading dock, yes at an added cost.  Lamar's contact number is:  916-201-3561             Just think,  you would be able to put that "We recycle our old, damaged PVs" feather in your cap in your website. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FRS_working_logo, 50%.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 8424 bytes Desc: not available URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sat May 23 13:37:46 2020 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 10:37:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery? Message-ID: In the way back machine I remember being at a product roll out meeting for the brand new Outback FX inverter. I asked the engineer, what was the smallest battery bank that could be connected to the inverter. He said on the fly that probably you would want the battery to "weight" at least as much as the inverter. I thought that was a great answer. Fast forward, with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC coupled with 2000w of PV, what is the smallest Li battery I would want for stable operation? My loads don't really need more than 40ah of capacity. What is the latest best practice on this? Thanks. From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat May 23 13:55:04 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 10:55:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark The smallest battery I have used is the Blue Planet 8 kWhr. its a half stack in there cabinet with a 10.8 k PS-3 inverter system with about 6 k on the roof, 8 K is not much but this particular customer only uses this for some low demand power consumption that must operate. It is less expensive to go with 16 kWhrs vs 8 at a cost per watt also Jerry On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 10:37 AM Mark Frye wrote: > In the way back machine I remember being at a product roll out meeting > for the brand new Outback FX inverter. I asked the engineer, what was > the smallest battery bank that could be connected to the inverter. He > said on the fly that probably you would want the battery to "weight" at > least as much as the inverter. I thought that was a great answer. > > Fast forward, with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC coupled with 2000w of PV, > what is the smallest Li battery I would want for stable operation? > > My loads don't really need more than 40ah of capacity. > > What is the latest best practice on this? > > Thanks. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sat May 23 15:02:06 2020 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 12:02:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <509acc1f-023c-6f8b-2298-a087f557730c@berkeleysolar.com> Humm, so maybe a 3kwhr would work for my situation. On 5/23/2020 10:55 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Mark > The smallest battery I have used is the Blue Planet 8 kWhr. its a half > stack in there cabinet with a 10.8 k PS-3 inverter system with about 6 > k on the roof, 8 K is not much but this particular customer only uses > this for some low demand power consumption that must operate. It is > less expensive to go with 16 kWhrs vs 8 at a cost per watt also > Jerry > > On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 10:37 AM Mark Frye > wrote: > > In the way back machine I remember being at a product roll out > meeting > for the brand new Outback FX inverter. I asked the engineer, what was > the smallest battery bank that could be connected to the inverter. He > said on the fly that probably you would want the battery to > "weight" at > least as much as the inverter. I thought that was a great answer. > > Fast forward, with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC coupled with 2000w > of PV, > what is the smallest Li battery I would want for stable operation? > > My loads don't really need more than 40ah of capacity. > > What is the latest best practice on this? > > Thanks. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat May 23 15:11:10 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 12:11:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery? In-Reply-To: <509acc1f-023c-6f8b-2298-a087f557730c@berkeleysolar.com> References: <509acc1f-023c-6f8b-2298-a087f557730c@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Just me but that small l would be surprised but again I like bigger gas tanks over small ones On Sat, May 23, 2020, 12:02 PM Mark Frye wrote: > Humm, so maybe a 3kwhr would work for my situation. > On 5/23/2020 10:55 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Mark > The smallest battery I have used is the Blue Planet 8 kWhr. its a half > stack in there cabinet with a 10.8 k PS-3 inverter system with about 6 k on > the roof, 8 K is not much but this particular customer only uses this for > some low demand power consumption that must operate. It is less expensive > to go with 16 kWhrs vs 8 at a cost per watt also > Jerry > > On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 10:37 AM Mark Frye > wrote: > >> In the way back machine I remember being at a product roll out meeting >> for the brand new Outback FX inverter. I asked the engineer, what was >> the smallest battery bank that could be connected to the inverter. He >> said on the fly that probably you would want the battery to "weight" at >> least as much as the inverter. I thought that was a great answer. >> >> Fast forward, with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC coupled with 2000w of PV, >> what is the smallest Li battery I would want for stable operation? >> >> My loads don't really need more than 40ah of capacity. >> >> What is the latest best practice on this? >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Sat May 23 17:48:04 2020 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 15:48:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery? Message-ID: Greetings, All~ Mark Frye had asked: "...with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC coupled with 2000w of PV, what is the smallest Li battery I would want for stable operation?" Mick's reply: In the lithium arena, one often finds the ratings in kilowatt-hours rather than in amp-hours. This is an easy conversion for us energy nerds to make, so below I'm mainly using watts & watt-hours with occasional conversions to amp-hours. I suggest that you start with the spec sheet (of whichever brand lithium battery is on your radar), & see what the manufacturer says about "allowable rate of recharge". You may find that C/2 is an acceptable rate with several manufacturers, Mark--much faster than what we're accustomed to with typical lead-acid batteries. Let's assume: * ...that your AC coupled PV array crests around 1800 watts to the battery when there are no loads * ...that the battery is below 100% state of charge, and * ...that the solar conditions are optimal. Let's further assume that those conditions represent your battery's highest energy rate in either direction. 1800w X two hours = 3,600 watt-hours dividing by 48v nominal = 75 amp-hours in the above hypothetical situation. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The rate at which a battery can receive energy is (usually) also the rate at which it can comfortably deplete, so let's briefly look at the flip side: Assuming the battery mfr. wants the watt-hours to be no less than two times the maximum wattage, a 3600 watt-hour (C/2) battery should not be depleted faster than 1800 watts. Your 4kW Radian, Mark, could exceed that if the loads demand it--& maybe your loads don't. Motor starting surges should probably be part of the thinking & it wouldn't hurt to ask the mfr.'s opinion about short term surges which briefly deplete the battery faster than the hypothetical two hour rate. By approaching this question based on the battery manufacturer do's & don'ts, one improves the chance of getting warranty coverage should it later be needed. "What the large print giveth, the fine print taketh away." The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun May 24 01:08:10 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 01:08:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22b0e53b-ed6b-0910-6ead-1dc61b025345@solarray.com> I suggest starting with a very simple look at the continuous output rating of the battery and match that to the inverter continuous rating. This ends up with quite a bit more battery than you might think at first.  However, if the customer paid the big bucks for a battery backup system, they should at least get enough battery to operate the inverter at its rated power.  Anything less, I would consider poor design.  The same goes for lead acid batteries, they just don't work well, even on grid, when the battery is undersized.  Even lead acid batteries have maximum current output ratings that should at least be matched to the inverter rating. If you WERE going to under size the battery, then you should keep it safe by reducing the size of the inverter battery breaker as well.   I know this "micro battery for GTB" is becoming a trend, but it doesn't mean its right. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/23/20 5:48 PM, Mick Abraham wrote: > Greetings, All~ Mark Frye had asked:  "...with a 4000w Outback Radian, > AC coupled with 2000w of PV, what is the smallest Li battery I would > want for stable operation?" > > Mick's reply: In the lithium arena, one often finds the ratings in > kilowatt-hours rather than in amp-hours. This is an easy conversion > for us energy nerds to make, so below I'm mainly using watts & > watt-hours with occasional conversions to amp-hours. > > I suggest that you start with the spec sheet (of whichever brand > lithium battery is on your radar), & see what the manufacturer says > about "allowable rate of recharge". You may find that C/2 is an > acceptable rate with several manufacturers, Mark--much faster than > what we're accustomed to with typical lead-acid batteries. Let's assume: > > * ...that your AC coupled PV array crests around 1800 watts to the > battery when there are no loads > * ...that the battery is below 100% state of charge, and > * ...that the solar conditions are optimal. > > Let's further assume that those conditions represent your battery's > highest energy rate in either direction. > > 1800w X two hours = 3,600 watt-hours dividing by 48v nominal = 75 > amp-hours in the above hypothetical situation. > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > The rate at which a battery can receive energy is (usually) also the > rate at which it can comfortably deplete, so let's briefly look at the > flip side: Assuming the battery mfr. wants the watt-hours to be no > less than two times the maximum wattage, a 3600 watt-hour (C/2) > battery should not be depleted faster than 1800 watts. Your 4kW > Radian, Mark, could exceed that if the loads demand it--& maybe your > loads don't. Motor starting surges should probably be part of the > thinking & it wouldn't hurt to ask the mfr.'s opinion about short term > surges which briefly deplete the battery faster than the hypothetical > two hour rate. > > By approaching this question based on the battery manufacturer do's & > don'ts, one improves the chance of getting warranty coverage should it > later be needed. "What the large print giveth, the fine print taketh > away." > > The Wrench List is the Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun May 24 10:15:53 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 07:15:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery? In-Reply-To: <22b0e53b-ed6b-0910-6ead-1dc61b025345@solarray.com> References: <22b0e53b-ed6b-0910-6ead-1dc61b025345@solarray.com> Message-ID: <5AAE9539-9237-47C4-A054-C50DD0C44C4C@gmail.com> One question I have for those more versed than me in lithium is, I’m under the impression that having a lithium battery in float for years isn’t good for it. Or at the very least it has to be cycled with some regularity. I’d like to hear data on that Thx Jay Peltz power. > On May 23, 2020, at 10:08 PM, Ray wrote: > >  > I suggest starting with a very simple look at the continuous output rating of the battery and match that to the inverter continuous rating. This ends up with quite a bit more battery than you might think at first. However, if the customer paid the big bucks for a battery backup system, they should at least get enough battery to operate the inverter at its rated power. Anything less, I would consider poor design. The same goes for lead acid batteries, they just don't work well, even on grid, when the battery is undersized. Even lead acid batteries have maximum current output ratings that should at least be matched to the inverter rating. > > If you WERE going to under size the battery, then you should keep it safe by reducing the size of the inverter battery breaker as well. I know this "micro battery for GTB" is becoming a trend, but it doesn't mean its right. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 >> On 5/23/20 5:48 PM, Mick Abraham wrote: >> Greetings, All~ Mark Frye had asked: "...with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC coupled with 2000w of PV, what is the smallest Li battery I would want for stable operation?" >> >> Mick's reply: In the lithium arena, one often finds the ratings in kilowatt-hours rather than in amp-hours. This is an easy conversion for us energy nerds to make, so below I'm mainly using watts & watt-hours with occasional conversions to amp-hours. >> >> I suggest that you start with the spec sheet (of whichever brand lithium battery is on your radar), & see what the manufacturer says about "allowable rate of recharge". You may find that C/2 is an acceptable rate with several manufacturers, Mark--much faster than what we're accustomed to with typical lead-acid batteries. Let's assume: >> >> * ...that your AC coupled PV array crests around 1800 watts to the battery when there are no loads >> * ...that the battery is below 100% state of charge, and >> * ...that the solar conditions are optimal. >> >> Let's further assume that those conditions represent your battery's highest energy rate in either direction. >> >> 1800w X two hours = 3,600 watt-hours dividing by 48v nominal = 75 amp-hours in the above hypothetical situation. >> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> The rate at which a battery can receive energy is (usually) also the rate at which it can comfortably deplete, so let's briefly look at the flip side: Assuming the battery mfr. wants the watt-hours to be no less than two times the maximum wattage, a 3600 watt-hour (C/2) battery should not be depleted faster than 1800 watts. Your 4kW Radian, Mark, could exceed that if the loads demand it--& maybe your loads don't. Motor starting surges should probably be part of the thinking & it wouldn't hurt to ask the mfr.'s opinion about short term surges which briefly deplete the battery faster than the hypothetical two hour rate. >> >> By approaching this question based on the battery manufacturer do's & don'ts, one improves the chance of getting warranty coverage should it later be needed. "What the large print giveth, the fine print taketh away." >> >> The Wrench List is the Bomb! >> >> Mick Abraham, Proprietor >> www.abrahamsolar.com >> >> Landline: 970-731-4675 >> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 >> ᐧ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun May 24 12:07:15 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 09:07:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?How_much_Li_battery=3F?= In-Reply-To: <5AAE9539-9237-47C4-A054-C50DD0C44C4C@gmail.com> References: <22b0e53b-ed6b-0910-6ead-1dc61b025345@solarray.com> <5AAE9539-9237-47C4-A054-C50DD0C44C4C@gmail.com> Message-ID: When I mix a lead acid system and a lithium it often is done to use up the life of the lead acid system. In this case, the lithium is just left off and hopefully gets used and tested monthly or so. In winter offgrid, the LFP gets used in bad weather and increases the days you can run in bad weather without a generator. Doing this is a challenge as both batteries have different set-points and I have never been able to use the same DC buss for my clients. This DC bus is where the solar is. What I do is use a seperate inverter for the lithium and charge it from the AC bus of the lead acid inverter. It sounds complicated but it is just a flick of the AC bypass in the power distribution panel of an XW or Radian. Another breaker turns on the charger in the lithium inv/chg. Eventually the old lead acid will go away. The clients love this as it gets them a completely independent power system. They can do the same thing later and just have two LFP banks/inverters. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 24 May 2020 07:15:53 -0700, Jay wrote: One question I have for those more versed than me in lithium is, I'm under the impression that having a lithium battery in float for years isn't good for it. Or at the very least it has to be cycled with some regularity. I'd like to hear data on that Thx Jay Peltz power. On May 23, 2020, at 10:08 PM, Ray wrote: I suggest starting with a very simple look at the continuous output rating of the battery and match that to the inverter continuous rating. This ends up with quite a bit more battery than you might think at first. However, if the customer paid the big bucks for a battery backup system, they should at least get enough battery to operate the inverter at its rated power. Anything less, I would consider poor design. The same goes for lead acid batteries, they just don't work well, even on grid, when the battery is undersized. Even lead acid batteries have maximum current output ratings that should at least be matched to the inverter rating. If you WERE going to under size the battery, then you should keep it safe by reducing the size of the inverter battery breaker as well. I know this "micro battery for GTB" is becoming a trend, but it doesn't mean its right. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/23/20 5:48 PM, Mick Abraham wrote: Greetings, All~ Mark Frye had asked: "...with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC coupled with 2000w of PV, what is the smallest Li battery I would want for stable operation?" Mick's reply: In the lithium arena, one often finds the ratings in kilowatt-hours rather than in amp-hours. This is an easy conversion for us energy nerds to make, so below I'm mainly using watts & watt-hours with occasional conversions to amp-hours. I suggest that you start with the spec sheet (of whichever brand lithium battery is on your radar), & see what the manufacturer says about "allowable rate of recharge". You may find that C/2 is an acceptable rate with several manufacturers, Mark--much faster than what we're accustomed to with typical lead-acid batteries. Let's assume: * ...that your AC coupled PV array crests around 1800 watts to the battery when there are no loads * ...that the battery is below 100% state of charge, and * ...that the solar conditions are optimal. Let's further assume that those conditions represent your battery's highest energy rate in either direction. 1800w X two hours = 3,600 watt-hours dividing by 48v nominal = 75 amp-hours in the above hypothetical situation. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The rate at which a battery can receive energy is (usually) also the rate at which it can comfortably deplete, so let's briefly look at the flip side: Assuming the battery mfr. wants the watt-hours to be no less than two times the maximum wattage, a 3600 watt-hour (C/2) battery should not be depleted faster than 1800 watts. Your 4kW Radian, Mark, could exceed that if the loads demand it--& maybe your loads don't. Motor starting surges should probably be part of the thinking & it wouldn't hurt to ask the mfr.'s opinion about short term surges which briefly deplete the battery faster than the hypothetical two hour rate. By approaching this question based on the battery manufacturer do's ">ᐧ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [8] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.abrahamsolar.com [4] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun May 24 11:41:55 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 08:41:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?How_much_Li_battery=3F?= In-Reply-To: <5AAE9539-9237-47C4-A054-C50DD0C44C4C@gmail.com> References: <22b0e53b-ed6b-0910-6ead-1dc61b025345@solarray.com> <5AAE9539-9237-47C4-A054-C50DD0C44C4C@gmail.com> Message-ID: My experience is that is really is about the cycles and the design life of the battery. Both will give you an idea of how long it should last at the amount of power you need. It is a poor design to over cycle and just as poor to use so little power that the system life is exceeded without using the power you paid for. The HALT testing gives an idea of life and many battery makers do not tell you about accelerated testing. So, the good part is they are fine with partial Soc, but the float it forever in grid tie may not be good. I think they need to be exercised if they are to be depended on. I have not seen anyone saying that. A good question Jay Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 24 May 2020 07:15:53 -0700, Jay wrote: One question I have for those more versed than me in lithium is, I'm under the impression that having a lithium battery in float for years isn't good for it. Or at the very least it has to be cycled with some regularity. I'd like to hear data on that Thx Jay Peltz power. On May 23, 2020, at 10:08 PM, Ray wrote: I suggest starting with a very simple look at the continuous output rating of the battery and match that to the inverter continuous rating. This ends up with quite a bit more battery than you might think at first. However, if the customer paid the big bucks for a battery backup system, they should at least get enough battery to operate the inverter at its rated power. Anything less, I would consider poor design. The same goes for lead acid batteries, they just don't work well, even on grid, when the battery is undersized. Even lead acid batteries have maximum current output ratings that should at least be matched to the inverter rating. If you WERE going to under size the battery, then you should keep it safe by reducing the size of the inverter battery breaker as well. I know this "micro battery for GTB" is becoming a trend, but it doesn't mean its right. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/23/20 5:48 PM, Mick Abraham wrote: Greetings, All~ Mark Frye had asked: "...with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC coupled with 2000w of PV, what is the smallest Li battery I would want for stable operation?" Mick's reply: In the lithium arena, one often finds the ratings in kilowatt-hours rather than in amp-hours. This is an easy conversion for us energy nerds to make, so below I'm mainly using watts & watt-hours with occasional conversions to amp-hours. I suggest that you start with the spec sheet (of whichever brand lithium battery is on your radar), & see what the manufacturer says about "allowable rate of recharge". You may find that C/2 is an acceptable rate with several manufacturers, Mark--much faster than what we're accustomed to with typical lead-acid batteries. Let's assume: * ...that your AC coupled PV array crests around 1800 watts to the battery when there are no loads * ...that the battery is below 100% state of charge, and * ...that the solar conditions are optimal. Let's further assume that those conditions represent your battery's highest energy rate in either direction. 1800w X two hours = 3,600 watt-hours dividing by 48v nominal = 75 amp-hours in the above hypothetical situation. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The rate at which a battery can receive energy is (usually) also the rate at which it can comfortably deplete, so let's briefly look at the flip side: Assuming the battery mfr. wants the watt-hours to be no less than two times the maximum wattage, a 3600 watt-hour (C/2) battery should not be depleted faster than 1800 watts. Your 4kW Radian, Mark, could exceed that if the loads demand it--& maybe your loads don't. Motor starting surges should probably be part of the thinking & it wouldn't hurt to ask the mfr.'s opinion about short term surges which briefly deplete the battery faster than the hypothetical two hour rate. By approaching this question based on the battery manufacturer do's ">ᐧ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [8] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.abrahamsolar.com [4] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun May 24 16:23:44 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 13:23:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery? In-Reply-To: <5AAE9539-9237-47C4-A054-C50DD0C44C4C@gmail.com> References: <22b0e53b-ed6b-0910-6ead-1dc61b025345@solarray.com> <5AAE9539-9237-47C4-A054-C50DD0C44C4C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, Wrenches It depends on the chemistry manganese, cobalt tend to require cycling, phosphate not as much. Every brand has its sweet spot regarding cycling and cycle life Jerry On Sun, May 24, 2020, 10:56 AM Jay wrote: > One question I have for those more versed than me in lithium is, I’m under > the impression that having a lithium battery in float for years isn’t good > for it. Or at the very least it has to be cycled with some regularity. > > I’d like to hear data on that > > Thx > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > > > On May 23, 2020, at 10:08 PM, Ray wrote: > >  > > I suggest starting with a very simple look at the continuous output rating > of the battery and match that to the inverter continuous rating. This ends > up with quite a bit more battery than you might think at first. However, > if the customer paid the big bucks for a battery backup system, they should > at least get enough battery to operate the inverter at its rated power. > Anything less, I would consider poor design. The same goes for lead acid > batteries, they just don't work well, even on grid, when the battery is > undersized. Even lead acid batteries have maximum current output ratings > that should at least be matched to the inverter rating. > > If you WERE going to under size the battery, then you should keep it safe > by reducing the size of the inverter battery breaker as well. I know this > "micro battery for GTB" is becoming a trend, but it doesn't mean its right. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 5/23/20 5:48 PM, Mick Abraham wrote: > > Greetings, All~ Mark Frye had asked: "...with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC > coupled with 2000w of PV, what is the smallest Li battery I would want for > stable operation?" > > Mick's reply: In the lithium arena, one often finds the ratings in > kilowatt-hours rather than in amp-hours. This is an easy conversion for us > energy nerds to make, so below I'm mainly using watts & watt-hours with > occasional conversions to amp-hours. > > I suggest that you start with the spec sheet (of whichever brand lithium > battery is on your radar), & see what the manufacturer says about > "allowable rate of recharge". You may find that C/2 is an acceptable rate > with several manufacturers, Mark--much faster than what we're accustomed to > with typical lead-acid batteries. Let's assume: > > * ...that your AC coupled PV array crests around 1800 watts to the battery > when there are no loads > * ...that the battery is below 100% state of charge, and > * ...that the solar conditions are optimal. > > Let's further assume that those conditions represent your battery's > highest energy rate in either direction. > > 1800w X two hours = 3,600 watt-hours dividing by 48v nominal = 75 > amp-hours in the above hypothetical situation. > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > The rate at which a battery can receive energy is (usually) also the rate > at which it can comfortably deplete, so let's briefly look at the flip > side: Assuming the battery mfr. wants the watt-hours to be no less than two > times the maximum wattage, a 3600 watt-hour (C/2) battery should not be > depleted faster than 1800 watts. Your 4kW Radian, Mark, could exceed that > if the loads demand it--& maybe your loads don't. Motor starting surges > should probably be part of the thinking & it wouldn't hurt to ask the > mfr.'s opinion about short term surges which briefly deplete the battery > faster than the hypothetical two hour rate. > > By approaching this question based on the battery manufacturer do's & > don'ts, one improves the chance of getting warranty coverage should it > later be needed. "What the large print giveth, the fine print taketh away." > > The Wrench List is the Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sun May 24 16:31:51 2020 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 15:31:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery? In-Reply-To: <5AAE9539-9237-47C4-A054-C50DD0C44C4C@gmail.com> References: <22b0e53b-ed6b-0910-6ead-1dc61b025345@solarray.com> <5AAE9539-9237-47C4-A054-C50DD0C44C4C@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have spoken with a li battery researcher. Do not charge over 85% of battery full charge voltage and they will last over 25 years. But go above or below bottom and trouble On Sun, May 24, 2020, 10:27 AM Jay wrote: > One question I have for those more versed than me in lithium is, I’m under > the impression that having a lithium battery in float for years isn’t good > for it. Or at the very least it has to be cycled with some regularity. > > I’d like to hear data on that > > Thx > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > > > On May 23, 2020, at 10:08 PM, Ray wrote: > >  > > I suggest starting with a very simple look at the continuous output rating > of the battery and match that to the inverter continuous rating. This ends > up with quite a bit more battery than you might think at first. However, > if the customer paid the big bucks for a battery backup system, they should > at least get enough battery to operate the inverter at its rated power. > Anything less, I would consider poor design. The same goes for lead acid > batteries, they just don't work well, even on grid, when the battery is > undersized. Even lead acid batteries have maximum current output ratings > that should at least be matched to the inverter rating. > > If you WERE going to under size the battery, then you should keep it safe > by reducing the size of the inverter battery breaker as well. I know this > "micro battery for GTB" is becoming a trend, but it doesn't mean its right. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 5/23/20 5:48 PM, Mick Abraham wrote: > > Greetings, All~ Mark Frye had asked: "...with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC > coupled with 2000w of PV, what is the smallest Li battery I would want for > stable operation?" > > Mick's reply: In the lithium arena, one often finds the ratings in > kilowatt-hours rather than in amp-hours. This is an easy conversion for us > energy nerds to make, so below I'm mainly using watts & watt-hours with > occasional conversions to amp-hours. > > I suggest that you start with the spec sheet (of whichever brand lithium > battery is on your radar), & see what the manufacturer says about > "allowable rate of recharge". You may find that C/2 is an acceptable rate > with several manufacturers, Mark--much faster than what we're accustomed to > with typical lead-acid batteries. Let's assume: > > * ...that your AC coupled PV array crests around 1800 watts to the battery > when there are no loads > * ...that the battery is below 100% state of charge, and > * ...that the solar conditions are optimal. > > Let's further assume that those conditions represent your battery's > highest energy rate in either direction. > > 1800w X two hours = 3,600 watt-hours dividing by 48v nominal = 75 > amp-hours in the above hypothetical situation. > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > The rate at which a battery can receive energy is (usually) also the rate > at which it can comfortably deplete, so let's briefly look at the flip > side: Assuming the battery mfr. wants the watt-hours to be no less than two > times the maximum wattage, a 3600 watt-hour (C/2) battery should not be > depleted faster than 1800 watts. Your 4kW Radian, Mark, could exceed that > if the loads demand it--& maybe your loads don't. Motor starting surges > should probably be part of the thinking & it wouldn't hurt to ask the > mfr.'s opinion about short term surges which briefly deplete the battery > faster than the hypothetical two hour rate. > > By approaching this question based on the battery manufacturer do's & > don'ts, one improves the chance of getting warranty coverage should it > later be needed. "What the large print giveth, the fine print taketh away." > > The Wrench List is the Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun May 24 16:50:15 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 13:50:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?How_much_Li_battery=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <22b0e53b-ed6b-0910-6ead-1dc61b025345@solarray.com> <5AAE9539-9237-47C4-A054-C50DD0C44C4C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Another parameter to look at for long life is max charge and discharge current. We killed the LG RESU 10 48vdc battery here with an XW+. XW has a 140 amp charger and 6.8kw was too much. That ended the Conext Bridge with LG. I think that is why Discover AES is doing well as they were designed for XW and Radians. The LG failed in dead short and the bms was good still. Big Ouch! Glad I was home.... Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 24 May 2020 15:31:51 -0500, Darryl Thayer wrote: I have spoken with a li battery researcher. Do not charge over 85% of battery full charge voltage and they will last over 25 years. But go above or below bottom and trouble On Sun, May 24, 2020, 10:27 AM Jay wrote: One question I have for those more versed than me in lithium is, I'm under the impression that having a lithium battery in float for years isn't good for it. Or at the very least it has to be cycled with some regularity. I'd like to hear data on that Thx Jay Peltz power. On May 23, 2020, at 10:08 PM, Ray wrote: I suggest starting with a very simple look at the continuous output rating of the battery and match that to the inverter continuous rating. This ends up with quite a bit more battery than you might think at first. However, if the customer paid the big bucks for a battery backup system, they should at least get enough battery to operate the inverter at its rated power. Anything less, I would consider poor design. The same goes for lead acid batteries, they just don't work well, even on grid, when the battery is undersized. Even lead acid batteries have maximum current output ratings that should at least be matched to the inverter rating. If you WERE going to under size the battery, then you should keep it safe by reducing the size of the inverter battery breaker as well. I know this "micro battery for GTB" is becoming a trend, but it doesn't mean its right. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/23/20 5:48 PM, Mick Abraham wrote: Greetings, All~ Mark Frye had asked: "...with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC coupled with 2000w of PV, what is the smallest Li battery I would want for stable operation?" Mick's reply: In the lithium arena, one often finds the ratings in kilowatt-hours rather than in amp-hours. This is an easy conversion for us energy nerds to make, so below I'm mainly using watts & watt-hours with occasional conversions to amp-hours. I suggest that you start with the spec sheet (of whichever brand lithium battery is on your radar), & see what the manufacturer says about "allowable rate of recharge". You may find that C/2 is an acceptable rate with several manufacturers, Mark--much faster than what we're accustomed to with typical lead-acid batteries. Let's assume: * ...that your AC coupled PV array crests around 1800 watts to the battery when there are no loads * ...that the battery is below 100% state of charge, and * ...that the solar conditions are optimal. Let's further assume that those conditions represent your battery's highest energy rate in either direction. 1800w X two hours = 3,600 watt-hours dividing by 48v nominal = 75 amp-hours in the above hypothetical situation. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The rate at which a battery can receive energy is (usually) also the rate at which it can comfortably deplete, so let's briefly look at the flip side: Assuming the battery mfr. wants the watt-hours to be no less than two times the maximum wattage, a 3600 watt-hour (C/2) battery should not be depleted faster than 1800 watts. Your 4kW Radian, Mark, could exceed that if the loads demand it--& maybe your loads don't. Motor starting surges should probably be part of the thinking & it wouldn't hurt to ask the mfr.'s opinion about short term surges which briefly deplete the battery faster than the hypothetical two hour rate. By approaching this question based on the battery manufacturer do's ">ᐧ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [13] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [15] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [18] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [19] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [20] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com [4] mailto:ray at solarray.com [5] http://www.abrahamsolar.com [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [9] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [14] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [16] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [19] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [20] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun May 24 18:23:50 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 15:23:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery? In-Reply-To: References: <22b0e53b-ed6b-0910-6ead-1dc61b025345@solarray.com> <5AAE9539-9237-47C4-A054-C50DD0C44C4C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Again not all batteries are the same, Chemistry, recharge rate or intelligence of the BMS, l have personally tested Blue planet batteries, l have let them sit at 100% SOC for 10 weeks, ran them at 30% SOC for 6 months, l have performed 100% to 0% cycling up to 4 times a day. This is the same tests l ran on a variety of Li tech batteries and BluePlanet is the only one that survived this testing. It's ore then spec sheets and cost, it comes down to success or failure, personally l like success and being able to pass or fail batteries without having my customers pay the price is a good thing. Blue Planet has 8000 cycles life and a 15 year warranty at 70% compare that to anything out there but again that's just me. On Sun, May 24, 2020, 1:32 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: > I have spoken with a li battery > researcher. Do not charge over 85% of battery full charge voltage and they > will last over 25 years. But go above or below bottom and trouble > > On Sun, May 24, 2020, 10:27 AM Jay wrote: > >> One question I have for those more versed than me in lithium is, I’m >> under the impression that having a lithium battery in float for years isn’t >> good for it. Or at the very least it has to be cycled with some regularity. >> >> I’d like to hear data on that >> >> Thx >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> >> >> >> >> >> On May 23, 2020, at 10:08 PM, Ray wrote: >> >>  >> >> I suggest starting with a very simple look at the continuous output >> rating of the battery and match that to the inverter continuous rating. >> This ends up with quite a bit more battery than you might think at first. >> However, if the customer paid the big bucks for a battery backup system, >> they should at least get enough battery to operate the inverter at its >> rated power. Anything less, I would consider poor design. The same goes >> for lead acid batteries, they just don't work well, even on grid, when the >> battery is undersized. Even lead acid batteries have maximum current >> output ratings that should at least be matched to the inverter rating. >> >> If you WERE going to under size the battery, then you should keep it safe >> by reducing the size of the inverter battery breaker as well. I know this >> "micro battery for GTB" is becoming a trend, but it doesn't mean its right. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 5/23/20 5:48 PM, Mick Abraham wrote: >> >> Greetings, All~ Mark Frye had asked: "...with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC >> coupled with 2000w of PV, what is the smallest Li battery I would want for >> stable operation?" >> >> Mick's reply: In the lithium arena, one often finds the ratings in >> kilowatt-hours rather than in amp-hours. This is an easy conversion for us >> energy nerds to make, so below I'm mainly using watts & watt-hours with >> occasional conversions to amp-hours. >> >> I suggest that you start with the spec sheet (of whichever brand lithium >> battery is on your radar), & see what the manufacturer says about >> "allowable rate of recharge". You may find that C/2 is an acceptable rate >> with several manufacturers, Mark--much faster than what we're accustomed to >> with typical lead-acid batteries. Let's assume: >> >> * ...that your AC coupled PV array crests around 1800 watts to the >> battery when there are no loads >> * ...that the battery is below 100% state of charge, and >> * ...that the solar conditions are optimal. >> >> Let's further assume that those conditions represent your battery's >> highest energy rate in either direction. >> >> 1800w X two hours = 3,600 watt-hours dividing by 48v nominal = 75 >> amp-hours in the above hypothetical situation. >> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> The rate at which a battery can receive energy is (usually) also the rate >> at which it can comfortably deplete, so let's briefly look at the flip >> side: Assuming the battery mfr. wants the watt-hours to be no less than two >> times the maximum wattage, a 3600 watt-hour (C/2) battery should not be >> depleted faster than 1800 watts. Your 4kW Radian, Mark, could exceed that >> if the loads demand it--& maybe your loads don't. Motor starting surges >> should probably be part of the thinking & it wouldn't hurt to ask the >> mfr.'s opinion about short term surges which briefly deplete the battery >> faster than the hypothetical two hour rate. >> >> By approaching this question based on the battery manufacturer do's & >> don'ts, one improves the chance of getting warranty coverage should it >> later be needed. "What the large print giveth, the fine print taketh away." >> >> The Wrench List is the Bomb! >> >> Mick Abraham, Proprietor >> www.abrahamsolar.com >> >> Landline: 970-731-4675 >> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 >> ᐧ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun May 24 18:55:42 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 15:55:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?How_much_Li_battery=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <22b0e53b-ed6b-0910-6ead-1dc61b025345@solarray.com> <5AAE9539-9237-47C4-A054-C50DD0C44C4C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5b325f4a77220261148432cbc6c13bff@127.0.0.1> Hi Jerry, When I looked at Blue Planet I had to pay the sales tax as none the normal distributors would carry Blue Planet. Has that changed please? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 24 May 2020 15:23:50 -0700, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Again not all batteries are the same, Chemistry, recharge rate or intelligence of the BMS, l have personally tested Blue planet batteries, l have let them sit at 100% SOC for 10 weeks, ran them at 30% SOC for 6 months, l have performed 100% to 0% cycling up to 4 times a day. This is the same tests l ran on a variety of Li tech batteries and BluePlanet is the only one that survived this testing. It's ore then spec sheets and cost, it comes down to success or failure, personally l like success and being able to pass or fail batteries without having my customers pay the price is a good thing. Blue Planet has 8000 cycles life and a 15 year warranty at 70% compare that to anything out there but again that's just me. On Sun, May 24, 2020, 1:32 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: I have spoken with a li battery researcher. Do not charge over 85% of battery full charge voltage and they will last over 25 years. But go above or below bottom and trouble On Sun, May 24, 2020, 10:27 AM Jay wrote: One question I have for those more versed than me in lithium is, I'm under the impression that having a lithium battery in float for years isn't good for it. Or at the very least it has to be cycled with some regularity. I'd like to hear data on that Thx Jay Peltz power. On May 23, 2020, at 10:08 PM, Ray wrote: I suggest starting with a very simple look at the continuous output rating of the battery and match that to the inverter continuous rating. This ends up with quite a bit more battery than you might think at first. However, if the customer paid the big bucks for a battery backup system, they should at least get enough battery to operate the inverter at its rated power. Anything less, I would consider poor design. The same goes for lead acid batteries, they just don't work well, even on grid, when the battery is undersized. Even lead acid batteries have maximum current output ratings that should at least be matched to the inverter rating. If you WERE going to under size the battery, then you should keep it safe by reducing the size of the inverter battery breaker as well. I know this "micro battery for GTB" is becoming a trend, but it doesn't mean its right. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/23/20 5:48 PM, Mick Abraham wrote: Greetings, All~ Mark Frye had asked: "...with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC coupled with 2000w of PV, what is the smallest Li battery I would want for stable operation?" Mick's reply: In the lithium arena, one often finds the ratings in kilowatt-hours rather than in amp-hours. This is an easy conversion for us energy nerds to make, so below I'm mainly using watts & watt-hours with occasional conversions to amp-hours. I suggest that you start with the spec sheet (of whichever brand lithium battery is on your radar), & see what the manufacturer says about "allowable rate of recharge". You may find that C/2 is an acceptable rate with several manufacturers, Mark--much faster than what we're accustomed to with typical lead-acid batteries. Let's assume: * ...that your AC coupled PV array crests around 1800 watts to the battery when there are no loads * ...that the battery is below 100% state of charge, and * ...that the solar conditions are optimal. Let's further assume that those conditions represent your battery's highest energy rate in either direction. 1800w X two hours = 3,600 watt-hours dividing by 48v nominal = 75 amp-hours in the above hypothetical situation. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The rate at which a battery can receive energy is (usually) also the rate at which it can comfortably deplete, so let's briefly look at the flip side: Assuming the battery mfr. wants the watt-hours to be no less than two times the maximum wattage, a 3600 watt-hour (C/2) battery should not be depleted faster than 1800 watts. Your 4kW Radian, Mark, could exceed that if the loads demand it--& maybe your loads don't. Motor starting surges should probably be part of the thinking & it wouldn't hurt to ask the mfr.'s opinion about short term surges which briefly deplete the battery faster than the hypothetical two hour rate. By approaching this question based on the battery manufacturer do's ">ᐧ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [9] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [14] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [16] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [19] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [20] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [21] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [22] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [23] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [24] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [25] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [26] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:darylsolar1 at gmail.com [4] mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com [5] mailto:ray at solarray.com [6] http://www.abrahamsolar.com [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [15] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [17] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [18] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [20] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [21] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [22] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [23] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [24] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [25] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [26] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun May 24 19:30:52 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 16:30:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery? In-Reply-To: <5b325f4a77220261148432cbc6c13bff@127.0.0.1> References: <22b0e53b-ed6b-0910-6ead-1dc61b025345@solarray.com> <5AAE9539-9237-47C4-A054-C50DD0C44C4C@gmail.com> <5b325f4a77220261148432cbc6c13bff@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: If you have a resale number that should be fine, at least it has been with me, they ask before ordering, do you need a contact person On Sun, May 24, 2020, 4:23 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Hi Jerry, > > When I looked at Blue Planet I had to pay the sales tax as none the normal > distributors would carry Blue Planet. Has that changed please? > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sun, 24 May 2020 15:23:50 -0700, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > Wrenches > Again not all batteries are the same, Chemistry, recharge rate or > intelligence of the BMS, l have personally tested Blue planet batteries, l > have let them sit at 100% SOC for 10 weeks, ran them at 30% SOC for 6 > months, l have performed 100% to 0% cycling up to 4 times a day. This is > the same tests l ran on a variety of Li tech batteries and BluePlanet is > the only one that survived this testing. It's ore then spec sheets and > cost, it comes down to success or failure, personally l like success and > being able to pass or fail batteries without having my customers pay the > price is a good thing. Blue Planet has 8000 cycles life and a 15 year > warranty at 70% compare that to anything out there but again that's just me. > > On Sun, May 24, 2020, 1:32 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: > >> I have spoken with a li battery >> researcher. Do not charge over 85% of battery full charge voltage and >> they will last over 25 years. But go above or below bottom and trouble >> >> On Sun, May 24, 2020, 10:27 AM Jay wrote: >> >>> One question I have for those more versed than me in lithium is, I'm >>> under the impression that having a lithium battery in float for years isn't >>> good for it. Or at the very least it has to be cycled with some regularity. >>> >>> I'd like to hear data on that >>> >>> Thx >>> Jay >>> >>> Peltz power. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 23, 2020, at 10:08 PM, Ray wrote: >>> >>> I suggest starting with a very simple look at the continuous output >>> rating of the battery and match that to the inverter continuous rating. >>> This ends up with quite a bit more battery than you might think at first. >>> However, if the customer paid the big bucks for a battery backup system, >>> they should at least get enough battery to operate the inverter at its >>> rated power. Anything less, I would consider poor design. The same goes >>> for lead acid batteries, they just don't work well, even on grid, when the >>> battery is undersized. Even lead acid batteries have maximum current >>> output ratings that should at least be matched to the inverter rating. >>> >>> If you WERE going to under size the battery, then you should keep it >>> safe by reducing the size of the inverter battery breaker as well. I know >>> this "micro battery for GTB" is becoming a trend, but it doesn't mean its >>> right. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> On 5/23/20 5:48 PM, Mick Abraham wrote: >>> >>> Greetings, All~ Mark Frye had asked: "...with a 4000w Outback Radian, >>> AC coupled with 2000w of PV, what is the smallest Li battery I would want >>> for stable operation?" >>> >>> Mick's reply: In the lithium arena, one often finds the ratings in >>> kilowatt-hours rather than in amp-hours. This is an easy conversion for us >>> energy nerds to make, so below I'm mainly using watts & watt-hours with >>> occasional conversions to amp-hours. >>> >>> I suggest that you start with the spec sheet (of whichever brand lithium >>> battery is on your radar), & see what the manufacturer says about >>> "allowable rate of recharge". You may find that C/2 is an acceptable rate >>> with several manufacturers, Mark--much faster than what we're accustomed to >>> with typical lead-acid batteries. Let's assume: >>> >>> * ...that your AC coupled PV array crests around 1800 watts to the >>> battery when there are no loads >>> * ...that the battery is below 100% state of charge, and >>> * ...that the solar conditions are optimal. >>> >>> Let's further assume that those conditions represent your battery's >>> highest energy rate in either direction. >>> >>> 1800w X two hours = 3,600 watt-hours dividing by 48v nominal = 75 >>> amp-hours in the above hypothetical situation. >>> >>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>> >>> The rate at which a battery can receive energy is (usually) also the >>> rate at which it can comfortably deplete, so let's briefly look at the flip >>> side: Assuming the battery mfr. wants the watt-hours to be no less than two >>> times the maximum wattage, a 3600 watt-hour (C/2) battery should not be >>> depleted faster than 1800 watts. Your 4kW Radian, Mark, could exceed that >>> if the loads demand it--& maybe your loads don't. Motor starting surges >>> should probably be part of the thinking & it wouldn't hurt to ask the >>> mfr.'s opinion about short term surges which briefly deplete the battery >>> faster than the hypothetical two hour rate. >>> >>> By approaching this question based on the battery manufacturer do's & >>> don'ts, one improves the chance of getting warranty coverage should it >>> later be needed. "What the large print giveth, the fine print taketh away." >>> >>> The Wrench List is the Bomb! >>> >>> Mick Abraham, Proprietor >>> www.abrahamsolar.com >>> >>> Landline: 970-731-4675 >>> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 >>> ᐧ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun May 24 19:42:34 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 16:42:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery? In-Reply-To: References: <22b0e53b-ed6b-0910-6ead-1dc61b025345@solarray.com> <5AAE9539-9237-47C4-A054-C50DD0C44C4C@gmail.com> Message-ID: HI Jerry, Most impressive. Would you be willing to tell us which ones didn’t meet this test, if not publicly, then off list? thanks jay > On May 24, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > Again not all batteries are the same, Chemistry, recharge rate or intelligence of the BMS, l have personally tested Blue planet batteries, l have let them sit at 100% SOC for 10 weeks, ran them at 30% SOC for 6 months, l have performed 100% to 0% cycling up to 4 times a day. This is the same tests l ran on a variety of Li tech batteries and BluePlanet is the only one that survived this testing. It's ore then spec sheets and cost, it comes down to success or failure, personally l like success and being able to pass or fail batteries without having my customers pay the price is a good thing. Blue Planet has 8000 cycles life and a 15 year warranty at 70% compare that to anything out there but again that's just me. > > On Sun, May 24, 2020, 1:32 PM Darryl Thayer > wrote: > I have spoken with a li battery > researcher. Do not charge over 85% of battery full charge voltage and they will last over 25 years. But go above or below bottom and trouble > > On Sun, May 24, 2020, 10:27 AM Jay > wrote: > One question I have for those more versed than me in lithium is, I’m under the impression that having a lithium battery in float for years isn’t good for it. Or at the very least it has to be cycled with some regularity. > > I’d like to hear data on that > > Thx > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > > >> On May 23, 2020, at 10:08 PM, Ray > wrote: >> >>  >> I suggest starting with a very simple look at the continuous output rating of the battery and match that to the inverter continuous rating. This ends up with quite a bit more battery than you might think at first. However, if the customer paid the big bucks for a battery backup system, they should at least get enough battery to operate the inverter at its rated power. Anything less, I would consider poor design. The same goes for lead acid batteries, they just don't work well, even on grid, when the battery is undersized. Even lead acid batteries have maximum current output ratings that should at least be matched to the inverter rating. >> >> If you WERE going to under size the battery, then you should keep it safe by reducing the size of the inverter battery breaker as well. I know this "micro battery for GTB" is becoming a trend, but it doesn't mean its right. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 5/23/20 5:48 PM, Mick Abraham wrote: >>> Greetings, All~ Mark Frye had asked: "...with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC coupled with 2000w of PV, what is the smallest Li battery I would want for stable operation?" >>> >>> Mick's reply: In the lithium arena, one often finds the ratings in kilowatt-hours rather than in amp-hours. This is an easy conversion for us energy nerds to make, so below I'm mainly using watts & watt-hours with occasional conversions to amp-hours. >>> >>> I suggest that you start with the spec sheet (of whichever brand lithium battery is on your radar), & see what the manufacturer says about "allowable rate of recharge". You may find that C/2 is an acceptable rate with several manufacturers, Mark--much faster than what we're accustomed to with typical lead-acid batteries. Let's assume: >>> >>> * ...that your AC coupled PV array crests around 1800 watts to the battery when there are no loads >>> * ...that the battery is below 100% state of charge, and >>> * ...that the solar conditions are optimal. >>> >>> Let's further assume that those conditions represent your battery's highest energy rate in either direction. >>> >>> 1800w X two hours = 3,600 watt-hours dividing by 48v nominal = 75 amp-hours in the above hypothetical situation. >>> >>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>> >>> The rate at which a battery can receive energy is (usually) also the rate at which it can comfortably deplete, so let's briefly look at the flip side: Assuming the battery mfr. wants the watt-hours to be no less than two times the maximum wattage, a 3600 watt-hour (C/2) battery should not be depleted faster than 1800 watts. Your 4kW Radian, Mark, could exceed that if the loads demand it--& maybe your loads don't. Motor starting surges should probably be part of the thinking & it wouldn't hurt to ask the mfr.'s opinion about short term surges which briefly deplete the battery faster than the hypothetical two hour rate. >>> >>> By approaching this question based on the battery manufacturer do's & don'ts, one improves the chance of getting warranty coverage should it later be needed. "What the large print giveth, the fine print taketh away." >>> >>> The Wrench List is the Bomb! >>> >>> Mick Abraham, Proprietor >>> www.abrahamsolar.com >>> >>> Landline: 970-731-4675 >>> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 >>> ᐧ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon May 25 00:05:06 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 21:05:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery? In-Reply-To: References: <22b0e53b-ed6b-0910-6ead-1dc61b025345@solarray.com> <5AAE9539-9237-47C4-A054-C50DD0C44C4C@gmail.com> Message-ID: It may take a little bit as it wrapped up just over 2 years ago, most of the research stayed at the lab. I do recall V2 did not survive the cycling test, it was unable to restart from 99% dod. There is no substitute for a multi-level battery management structure when it comes to Li tech. I have priced simplify dirt to keys and it cost more then Blue did and required more space. There was another one that came in near the end and was built in what appeared to be a 66" tall chemical storage cabinet just to make it fire rated, maybe it's just me but batteries that can catch fire may not be the best choice but hey I'm funny like that. Anyone installing any batteries needs to read the very fine print that talks about "what to do in case of" and that can be a deciding factor right there. Way back when all FLA's had to be in a pan to catch the acid before it did damage, that was 20 years ago by now it should be safer not more dangerous. On Sun, May 24, 2020, 8:36 PM jay wrote: > HI Jerry, > > Most impressive. > > Would you be willing to tell us which ones didn’t meet this test, if not > publicly, then off list? > > thanks > > jay > > > > On May 24, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > Wrenches > Again not all batteries are the same, Chemistry, recharge rate or > intelligence of the BMS, l have personally tested Blue planet batteries, l > have let them sit at 100% SOC for 10 weeks, ran them at 30% SOC for 6 > months, l have performed 100% to 0% cycling up to 4 times a day. This is > the same tests l ran on a variety of Li tech batteries and BluePlanet is > the only one that survived this testing. It's ore then spec sheets and > cost, it comes down to success or failure, personally l like success and > being able to pass or fail batteries without having my customers pay the > price is a good thing. Blue Planet has 8000 cycles life and a 15 year > warranty at 70% compare that to anything out there but again that's just me. > > On Sun, May 24, 2020, 1:32 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: > >> I have spoken with a li battery >> researcher. Do not charge over 85% of battery full charge voltage and >> they will last over 25 years. But go above or below bottom and trouble >> >> On Sun, May 24, 2020, 10:27 AM Jay wrote: >> >>> One question I have for those more versed than me in lithium is, I’m >>> under the impression that having a lithium battery in float for years isn’t >>> good for it. Or at the very least it has to be cycled with some regularity. >>> >>> I’d like to hear data on that >>> >>> Thx >>> Jay >>> >>> Peltz power. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 23, 2020, at 10:08 PM, Ray wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> I suggest starting with a very simple look at the continuous output >>> rating of the battery and match that to the inverter continuous rating. >>> This ends up with quite a bit more battery than you might think at first. >>> However, if the customer paid the big bucks for a battery backup system, >>> they should at least get enough battery to operate the inverter at its >>> rated power. Anything less, I would consider poor design. The same goes >>> for lead acid batteries, they just don't work well, even on grid, when the >>> battery is undersized. Even lead acid batteries have maximum current >>> output ratings that should at least be matched to the inverter rating. >>> >>> If you WERE going to under size the battery, then you should keep it >>> safe by reducing the size of the inverter battery breaker as well. I know >>> this "micro battery for GTB" is becoming a trend, but it doesn't mean its >>> right. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> On 5/23/20 5:48 PM, Mick Abraham wrote: >>> >>> Greetings, All~ Mark Frye had asked: "...with a 4000w Outback Radian, >>> AC coupled with 2000w of PV, what is the smallest Li battery I would want >>> for stable operation?" >>> >>> Mick's reply: In the lithium arena, one often finds the ratings in >>> kilowatt-hours rather than in amp-hours. This is an easy conversion for us >>> energy nerds to make, so below I'm mainly using watts & watt-hours with >>> occasional conversions to amp-hours. >>> >>> I suggest that you start with the spec sheet (of whichever brand lithium >>> battery is on your radar), & see what the manufacturer says about >>> "allowable rate of recharge". You may find that C/2 is an acceptable rate >>> with several manufacturers, Mark--much faster than what we're accustomed to >>> with typical lead-acid batteries. Let's assume: >>> >>> * ...that your AC coupled PV array crests around 1800 watts to the >>> battery when there are no loads >>> * ...that the battery is below 100% state of charge, and >>> * ...that the solar conditions are optimal. >>> >>> Let's further assume that those conditions represent your battery's >>> highest energy rate in either direction. >>> >>> 1800w X two hours = 3,600 watt-hours dividing by 48v nominal = 75 >>> amp-hours in the above hypothetical situation. >>> >>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>> >>> The rate at which a battery can receive energy is (usually) also the >>> rate at which it can comfortably deplete, so let's briefly look at the flip >>> side: Assuming the battery mfr. wants the watt-hours to be no less than two >>> times the maximum wattage, a 3600 watt-hour (C/2) battery should not be >>> depleted faster than 1800 watts. Your 4kW Radian, Mark, could exceed that >>> if the loads demand it--& maybe your loads don't. Motor starting surges >>> should probably be part of the thinking & it wouldn't hurt to ask the >>> mfr.'s opinion about short term surges which briefly deplete the battery >>> faster than the hypothetical two hour rate. >>> >>> By approaching this question based on the battery manufacturer do's & >>> don'ts, one improves the chance of getting warranty coverage should it >>> later be needed. "What the large print giveth, the fine print taketh away." >>> >>> The Wrench List is the Bomb! >>> >>> Mick Abraham, Proprietor >>> www.abrahamsolar.com >>> >>> Landline: 970-731-4675 >>> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 >>> ᐧ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon May 25 10:43:43 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 10:43:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: <014a01d62f78$5de7c660$19b75320$@solarcentex.com> References: <014a01d62f78$5de7c660$19b75320$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we will see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I have two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined breaker. I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping simultaneously with the combined output breaker. Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would be replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: > Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max > string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string’s > associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. > > > > We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped again. We > replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the breaker was > less than perfect from the start as we’ve add equally nice days since. > > > > This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 watts but > in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra careful going > forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published… > > > > My story. > > > > Scot > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng > > > > I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and Enphase > IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters each > coming into an Enphase AC combiner. > > > > What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and > the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been > tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 > months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept > investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, > etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. > > > > Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different > branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We > checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely > that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched > out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. > > > > I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers > crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another > diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One > thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible > disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line > fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if > there is in fact a fault. > > > > I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase systems > in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned out to be > branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on different > breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault which > eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out of > it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This case > seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Mon May 25 17:08:03 2020 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 14:08:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Split Phase Load Rating Message-ID: <51e25832-0384-e98e-40fd-24cfaeb8a612@berkeleysolar.com> Folks, Back again into the way back machine, I once installed a system with multiply FX's stacked in a split-phase configuration. At the advice of the engineer, I also installed an auto-transformer across the lines to help balance the per-phase loads. With the current split-phase inverters (Outback, Schneider, Magnum) what is the per-phase rating? Do any or all of them deliver 100% output rating to a single phase? If not, what is the max percentage output is allowed on a single phase? Do folks have to spend alot of time making sure there split-phase loads are balanced? Thanks, Mark From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon May 25 17:16:05 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 14:16:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Split Phase Load Rating In-Reply-To: <51e25832-0384-e98e-40fd-24cfaeb8a612@berkeleysolar.com> References: <51e25832-0384-e98e-40fd-24cfaeb8a612@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <7277ef5f6a43b4a460924fdd3328899c@127.0.0.1> >From what I have seen most folks get into trouble with split phase because they are using too small of an inverter. For a home or larger I only use the big radians or an XW's. Some do have problems because they are refitting an old 120vac power system to split phase and the load panel was never balanced at all. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 25 May 2020 14:08:03 -0700, Mark Frye wrote: > Folks, > > Back again into the way back machine, I once installed a system with > multiply FX's stacked in a split-phase configuration. At the advice of > the engineer, I also installed an auto-transformer across the lines to > help balance the per-phase loads. > > With the current split-phase inverters (Outback, Schneider, Magnum) what > is the per-phase rating? Do any or all of them deliver 100% output > rating to a single phase? If not, what is the max percentage output is > allowed on a single phase? Do folks have to spend alot of time making > sure there split-phase loads are balanced? > > Thanks, > > Mark > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon May 25 11:34:19 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 08:34:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?How_much_Li_battery=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <22b0e53b-ed6b-0910-6ead-1dc61b025345@solarray.com> <5AAE9539-9237-47C4-A054-C50DD0C44C4C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8bcf9c77806656ede184021bcc02dc96@127.0.0.1> Jay knows about these and I won't name them just because I use them. They are the perfect size for most offgrid and scalable. I have a client in Texas who left them for 14 months off, and maybe they lost 1%. The best part of them for me, is all a client has to do is enter the date in the system control panel and all of the rest is done. True plug and play. Built by a company that has made locomotive batteries for decades. I asked them Jay on linkedin. He said do what you want with Soc. Don't worry about any of that. Just know that we have you covered. Below is from their latest webinar. For a solar installation to pass final inspection, the batteries must have been tested and approved to UL 1973. Not just the cell but the battery. So, before making a final selection, verify that the battery selection you make has you covered. These LiFePO4 batteries meet this certification, so you can be confident that your customers batteries are safe and pass inspection. Our commitment to safety, reliability and certification also delivers the following. * Safe and Maintenance Free * Sophisticated High Current BMS * Field Serviceable BMS * IP 55 Rated * IEC 62133 Safety * UL 1973 Safety Certified * UN 38.3 Transport Certified Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 24 May 2020 21:05:06 -0700, Jerry Shafer wrote: It may take a little bit as it wrapped up just over 2 years ago, most of the research stayed at the lab. I do recall V2 did not survive the cycling test, it was unable to restart from 99% dod. There is no substitute for a multi-level battery management structure when it comes to Li tech. I have priced simplify dirt to keys and it cost more then Blue did and required more space. There was another one that came in near the end and was built in what appeared to be a 66" tall chemical storage cabinet just to make it fire rated, maybe it's just me but batteries that can catch fire may not be the best choice but hey I'm funny like that. Anyone installing any batteries needs to read the very fine print that talks about "what to do in case of" and that can be a deciding factor right there. Way back when all FLA's had to be in a pan to catch the acid before it did damage, that was 20 years ago by now it should be safer not more dangerous. On Sun, May 24, 2020, 8:36 PM jay wrote: HI Jerry, Most impressive. Would you be willing to tell us which ones didn't meet this test, if not publicly, then off list? thanks jay On May 24, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Again not all batteries are the same, Chemistry, recharge rate or intelligence of the BMS, l have personally tested Blue planet batteries, l have let them sit at 100% SOC for 10 weeks, ran them at 30% SOC for 6 months, l have performed 100% to 0% cycling up to 4 times a day. This is the same tests l ran on a variety of Li tech batteries and BluePlanet is the only one that survived this testing. It's ore then spec sheets and cost, it comes down to success or failure, personally l like success and being able to pass or fail batteries without having my customers pay the price is a good thing. Blue Planet has 8000 cycles life and a 15 year warranty at 70% compare that to anything out there but again that's just me. On Sun, May 24, 2020, 1:32 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: I have spoken with a li battery researcher. Do not charge over 85% of battery full charge voltage and they will last over 25 years. But go above or below bottom and trouble On Sun, May 24, 2020, 10:27 AM Jay wrote: One question I have for those more versed than me in lithium is, I'm under the impression that having a lithium battery in float for years isn't good for it. Or at the very least it has to be cycled with some regularity. I'd like to hear data on that Thx Jay Peltz power. On May 23, 2020, at 10:08 PM, Ray wrote: I suggest starting with a very simple look at the continuous output rating of the battery and match that to the inverter continuous rating. This ends up with quite a bit more battery than you might think at first. However, if the customer paid the big bucks for a battery backup system, they should at least get enough battery to operate the inverter at its rated power. Anything less, I would consider poor design. The same goes for lead acid batteries, they just don't work well, even on grid, when the battery is undersized. Even lead acid batteries have maximum current output ratings that should at least be matched to the inverter rating. If you WERE going to under size the battery, then you should keep it safe by reducing the size of the inverter battery breaker as well. I know this "micro battery for GTB" is becoming a trend, but it doesn't mean its right. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/23/20 5:48 PM, Mick Abraham wrote: Greetings, All~ Mark Frye had asked: "...with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC coupled with 2000w of PV, what is the smallest Li battery I would want for stable operation?" Mick's reply: In the lithium arena, one often finds the ratings in kilowatt-hours rather than in amp-hours. This is an easy conversion for us energy nerds to make, so below I'm mainly using watts & watt-hours with occasional conversions to amp-hours. I suggest that you start with the spec sheet (of whichever brand lithium battery is on your radar), & see what the manufacturer says about "allowable rate of recharge". You may find that C/2 is an acceptable rate with several manufacturers, Mark--much faster than what we're accustomed to with typical lead-acid batteries. Let's assume: * ...that your AC coupled PV array crests around 1800 watts to the battery when there are no loads * ...that the battery is below 100% state of charge, and * ...that the solar conditions are optimal. Let's further assume that those conditions represent your battery's highest energy rate in either direction. 1800w X two hours = 3,600 watt-hours dividing by 48v nominal = 75 amp-hours in the above hypothetical situation. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The rate at which a battery can receive energy is (usually) also the rate at which it can comfortably deplete, so let's briefly look at the flip side: Assuming the battery mfr. wants the watt-hours to be no less than two times the maximum wattage, a 3600 watt-hour (C/2) battery should not be depleted faster than 1800 watts. Your 4kW Radian, Mark, could exceed that if the loads demand it--& maybe your loads don't. Motor starting surges should probably be part of the thinking & it wouldn't hurt to ask the mfr.'s opinion about short term surges which briefly deplete the battery faster than the hypothetical two hour rate. By approaching this question based on the battery manufacturer do's ">ᐧ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [11] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [16] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [17] Check out or update 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URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Mon May 25 18:19:48 2020 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 15:19:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Split Phase Load Rating In-Reply-To: <7277ef5f6a43b4a460924fdd3328899c@127.0.0.1> References: <51e25832-0384-e98e-40fd-24cfaeb8a612@berkeleysolar.com> <7277ef5f6a43b4a460924fdd3328899c@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <233e0784-7058-0918-ad78-ef237c9363ea@berkeleysolar.com> OK, so with a Radian or XW what is the per-phase % of total rated power? 50%? On 5/25/2020 2:16 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > From what I have seen most folks get into trouble with split phase because > they are using too small of an inverter. For a home or larger I only use > the big radians or an XW's. > > Some do have problems because they are refitting an old 120vac power > system to split phase and the load panel was never balanced at all. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Mon, 25 May 2020 14:08:03 -0700, Mark Frye > wrote: >> Folks, >> >> Back again into the way back machine, I once installed a system with >> multiply FX's stacked in a split-phase configuration. At the advice of >> the engineer, I also installed an auto-transformer across the lines to >> help balance the per-phase loads. >> >> With the current split-phase inverters (Outback, Schneider, Magnum) what >> is the per-phase rating? Do any or all of them deliver 100% output >> rating to a single phase? If not, what is the max percentage output is >> allowed on a single phase? Do folks have to spend alot of time making >> sure there split-phase loads are balanced? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mark >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon May 25 18:24:01 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 15:24:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Split Phase Load Rating In-Reply-To: <233e0784-7058-0918-ad78-ef237c9363ea@berkeleysolar.com> References: <233e0784-7058-0918-ad78-ef237c9363ea@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Mark The Schneider XW model is 75% of max VA per line. (6800 x .75) The radian would be something like that, but I couldn’t find it on the spec sheet. Jay > On May 25, 2020, at 3:19 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > > OK, so with a Radian or XW what is the per-phase % of total rated power? 50%? > >> On 5/25/2020 2:16 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> From what I have seen most folks get into trouble with split phase because >> they are using too small of an inverter. For a home or larger I only use >> the big radians or an XW's. >> >> Some do have problems because they are refitting an old 120vac power >> system to split phase and the load panel was never balanced at all. >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >>> On Mon, 25 May 2020 14:08:03 -0700, Mark Frye >>> wrote: >>> Folks, >>> >>> Back again into the way back machine, I once installed a system with >>> multiply FX's stacked in a split-phase configuration. At the advice of >>> the engineer, I also installed an auto-transformer across the lines to >>> help balance the per-phase loads. >>> >>> With the current split-phase inverters (Outback, Schneider, Magnum) what >>> is the per-phase rating? Do any or all of them deliver 100% output >>> rating to a single phase? If not, what is the max percentage output is >>> allowed on a single phase? Do folks have to spend alot of time making >>> sure there split-phase loads are balanced? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon May 25 18:13:11 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 15:13:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery? In-Reply-To: <8bcf9c77806656ede184021bcc02dc96@127.0.0.1> References: <8bcf9c77806656ede184021bcc02dc96@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <89861F9A-6A50-4025-8D42-B5AD8AAE68BF@gmail.com> You might check out discover batteries. I’m a big fan of companies they make their equipment, they do, one of the very few in the lithium world. And while the original question specifically asked about Lithium, what you’re requiring is perfectly suited for VRLA float service batteries. Long life, much lower cost. Jay Peltz power. > On May 25, 2020, at 2:37 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > >  > Jay knows about these and I won't name them just because I use them. They are the perfect size for most offgrid and scalable. > > I have a client in Texas who left them for 14 months off, and maybe they lost 1%. The best part of them for me, is all a client has to do is enter the date in the system control panel and all of the rest is done. True plug and play. Built by a company that has made locomotive batteries for decades. I asked them Jay on linkedin. He said do what you want with Soc. Don't worry about any of that. Just know that we have you covered. Below is from their latest webinar. > > For a solar installation to pass final inspection, the batteries must have been tested and approved to UL 1973. Not just the cell but the battery. So, before making a final selection, verify that the battery selection you make has you covered. These LiFePO4 batteries meet this certification, so you can be confident that your customers batteries are safe and pass inspection. Our commitment to safety, reliability and certification also delivers the following. > > Safe and Maintenance Free > Sophisticated High Current BMS > Field Serviceable BMS > IP 55 Rated > IEC 62133 Safety > UL 1973 Safety Certified > UN 38.3 Transport Certified > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 >> On Sun, 24 May 2020 21:05:06 -0700, Jerry Shafer wrote: >> >> It may take a little bit as it wrapped up just over 2 years ago, most of the research stayed at the lab. I do recall V2 did not survive the cycling test, it was unable to restart from 99% dod. There is no substitute for a multi-level battery management structure when it comes to Li tech. I have priced simplify dirt to keys and it cost more then Blue did and required more space. There was another one that came in near the end and was built in what appeared to be a 66" tall chemical storage cabinet just to make it fire rated, maybe it's just me but batteries that can catch fire may not be the best choice but hey I'm funny like that. Anyone installing any batteries needs to read the very fine print that talks about "what to do in case of" and that can be a deciding factor right there. >> Way back when all FLA's had to be in a pan to catch the acid before it did damage, that was 20 years ago by now it should be safer not more dangerous. >> >>> On Sun, May 24, 2020, 8:36 PM jay wrote: >>> HI Jerry, >>> >>> Most impressive. >>> >>> Would you be willing to tell us which ones didn't meet this test, if not publicly, then off list? >>> >>> thanks >>> >>> jay >>> >>> >>> >>>> On May 24, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>>> >>>> Wrenches >>>> Again not all batteries are the same, Chemistry, recharge rate or intelligence of the BMS, l have personally tested Blue planet batteries, l have let them sit at 100% SOC for 10 weeks, ran them at 30% SOC for 6 months, l have performed 100% to 0% cycling up to 4 times a day. This is the same tests l ran on a variety of Li tech batteries and BluePlanet is the only one that survived this testing. It's ore then spec sheets and cost, it comes down to success or failure, personally l like success and being able to pass or fail batteries without having my customers pay the price is a good thing. Blue Planet has 8000 cycles life and a 15 year warranty at 70% compare that to anything out there but again that's just me. >>>> >>>>> On Sun, May 24, 2020, 1:32 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: >>>>> I have spoken with a li battery >>>>> researcher. Do not charge over 85% of battery full charge voltage and they will last over 25 years. But go above or below bottom and trouble >>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, May 24, 2020, 10:27 AM Jay wrote: >>>>>> One question I have for those more versed than me in lithium is, I'm under the impression that having a lithium battery in float for years isn't good for it. Or at the very least it has to be cycled with some regularity. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'd like to hear data on that >>>>>> >>>>>> Thx >>>>>> Jay >>>>>> >>>>>> Peltz power. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 23, 2020, at 10:08 PM, Ray wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I suggest starting with a very simple look at the continuous output rating of the battery and match that to the inverter continuous rating. This ends up with quite a bit more battery than you might think at first. However, if the customer paid the big bucks for a battery backup system, they should at least get enough battery to operate the inverter at its rated power. Anything less, I would consider poor design. The same goes for lead acid batteries, they just don't work well, even on grid, when the battery is undersized. Even lead acid batteries have maximum current output ratings that should at least be matched to the inverter rating. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you WERE going to under size the battery, then you should keep it safe by reducing the size of the inverter battery breaker as well. I know this "micro battery for GTB" is becoming a trend, but it doesn't mean its right. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>>>> On 5/23/20 5:48 PM, Mick Abraham wrote: >>>>>>>> Greetings, All~ Mark Frye had asked: "...with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC coupled with 2000w of PV, what is the smallest Li battery I would want for stable operation?" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mick's reply: In the lithium arena, one often finds the ratings in kilowatt-hours rather than in amp-hours. This is an easy conversion for us energy nerds to make, so below I'm mainly using watts & watt-hours with occasional conversions to amp-hours. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I suggest that you start with the spec sheet (of whichever brand lithium battery is on your radar), & see what the manufacturer says about "allowable rate of recharge". You may find that C/2 is an acceptable rate with several manufacturers, Mark--much faster than what we're accustomed to with typical lead-acid batteries. Let's assume: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> * ...that your AC coupled PV array crests around 1800 watts to the battery when there are no loads >>>>>>>> * ...that the battery is below 100% state of charge, and >>>>>>>> * ...that the solar conditions are optimal. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Let's further assume that those conditions represent your battery's highest energy rate in either direction. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1800w X two hours = 3,600 watt-hours dividing by 48v nominal = 75 amp-hours in the above hypothetical situation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The rate at which a battery can receive energy is (usually) also the rate at which it can comfortably deplete, so let's briefly look at the flip side: Assuming the battery mfr. wants the watt-hours to be no less than two times the maximum wattage, a 3600 watt-hour (C/2) battery should not be depleted faster than 1800 watts. Your 4kW Radian, Mark, could exceed that if the loads demand it--& maybe your loads don't. Motor starting surges should probably be part of the thinking & it wouldn't hurt to ask the mfr.'s opinion about short term surges which briefly deplete the battery faster than the hypothetical two hour rate. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> By approaching this question based on the battery manufacturer do's & don'ts, one improves the chance of getting warranty coverage should it later be needed. "What the large print giveth, the fine print taketh away." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The Wrench List is the Bomb! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mick Abraham, Proprietor >>>>>>>> www.abrahamsolar.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Landline: 970-731-4675 >>>>>>>> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 >>>>>>>> ᐧ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon May 25 18:03:53 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 15:03:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Split Phase Load Rating In-Reply-To: <7277ef5f6a43b4a460924fdd3328899c@127.0.0.1> References: <7277ef5f6a43b4a460924fdd3328899c@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Hi Mark This was a big advantage of the older FX inverters was the use of the balancing transformer. The new FXR can’t use it. I can’t find but I had to call OB to get some info on how much you could out of balance a Radian inverter. It was like 60% ,could have been a bit higher but wasn’t 90-100% for sure. Schneider xw is 75% I don’t know about magnum. And yea gotta try and figure out the load balance. Jay Peltz Power. > On May 25, 2020, at 2:37 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > From what I have seen most folks get into trouble with split phase because > they are using too small of an inverter. For a home or larger I only use > the big radians or an XW's. > > Some do have problems because they are refitting an old 120vac power > system to split phase and the load panel was never balanced at all. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > >> On Mon, 25 May 2020 14:08:03 -0700, Mark Frye >> wrote: >> Folks, >> >> Back again into the way back machine, I once installed a system with >> multiply FX's stacked in a split-phase configuration. At the advice of >> the engineer, I also installed an auto-transformer across the lines to >> help balance the per-phase loads. >> >> With the current split-phase inverters (Outback, Schneider, Magnum) what > >> is the per-phase rating? Do any or all of them deliver 100% output >> rating to a single phase? If not, what is the max percentage output is >> allowed on a single phase? Do folks have to spend alot of time making >> sure there split-phase loads are balanced? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mark >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon May 25 19:21:52 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 17:21:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Split Phase Load Rating In-Reply-To: <233e0784-7058-0918-ad78-ef237c9363ea@berkeleysolar.com> References: <51e25832-0384-e98e-40fd-24cfaeb8a612@berkeleysolar.com> <7277ef5f6a43b4a460924fdd3328899c@127.0.0.1> <233e0784-7058-0918-ad78-ef237c9363ea@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Hmm: this is vague from the Radian Manual but it kind of seems like no imbalance is tolerated (4 kVa/phase) [image: image.png] Schneider is more clear: Looks like: 46A L to N with the 5548 48A L to N with the 6848 [image: image.png] On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 4:19 PM Mark Frye wrote: > OK, so with a Radian or XW what is the per-phase % of total rated power? > 50%? > > On 5/25/2020 2:16 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > From what I have seen most folks get into trouble with split phase > because > > they are using too small of an inverter. For a home or larger I only use > > the big radians or an XW's. > > > > Some do have problems because they are refitting an old 120vac power > > system to split phase and the load panel was never balanced at all. > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > > text 209 813 0060 > > > > On Mon, 25 May 2020 14:08:03 -0700, Mark Frye > > wrote: > >> Folks, > >> > >> Back again into the way back machine, I once installed a system with > >> multiply FX's stacked in a split-phase configuration. At the advice of > >> the engineer, I also installed an auto-transformer across the lines to > >> help balance the per-phase loads. > >> > >> With the current split-phase inverters (Outback, Schneider, Magnum) what > >> is the per-phase rating? Do any or all of them deliver 100% output > >> rating to a single phase? If not, what is the max percentage output is > >> allowed on a single phase? Do folks have to spend alot of time making > >> sure there split-phase loads are balanced? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Mark > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > >> > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 79830 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 239555 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon May 25 21:26:07 2020 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 19:26:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Split Phase Load Rating In-Reply-To: References: <7277ef5f6a43b4a460924fdd3328899c@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <7ebf76ad-7b12-9a28-1100-777ddd29fddb@sindelarsolar.com> I believe that Magnum can handle an imbalance of up to 85%. I haven't found this in the inverter manual, but believe that I got it from tech support. Allan On 5/25/2020 4:03 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi Mark > This was a big advantage of the older FX inverters was the use of the balancing transformer. The new FXR can’t use it. > I can’t find but I had to call OB to get some info on how much you could out of balance a Radian inverter. It was like 60% ,could have been a bit higher but wasn’t 90-100% for sure. > Schneider xw is 75% > I don’t know about magnum. > And yea gotta try and figure out the load balance. > Jay > Peltz Power. -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon May 25 21:47:41 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 18:47:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Split Phase Load Rating In-Reply-To: <7ebf76ad-7b12-9a28-1100-777ddd29fddb@sindelarsolar.com> References: <7277ef5f6a43b4a460924fdd3328899c@127.0.0.1> <7ebf76ad-7b12-9a28-1100-777ddd29fddb@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <827b3953ed16403d96894f2753652df7@127.0.0.1> Which model magnum can do this please? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 25 May 2020 19:26:07 -0600, Sindelar Solar wrote: I believe that Magnum can handle an imbalance of up to 85%. I haven't found this in the inverter manual, but believe that I got it from tech support. Allan On 5/25/2020 4:03 PM, Jay wrote: Hi Mark This was a big advantage of the older FX inverters was the use of the balancing transformer. The new FXR can't use it. I can't find but I had to call OB to get some info on how much you could out of balance a Radian inverter. It was like 60% ,could have been a bit higher but wasn't 90-100% for sure. Schneider xw is 75% I don't know about magnum. And yea gotta try and figure out the load balance. Jay Peltz Power. -- ALLAN SINDELAR allan at sindelarsolar.com [3] NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 CELL Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Tue May 26 09:32:50 2020 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 07:32:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Split Phase Load Rating In-Reply-To: <827b3953ed16403d96894f2753652df7@127.0.0.1> References: <827b3953ed16403d96894f2753652df7@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <6554E58B-6355-492A-AC06-0D12C2314F3C@sindelarsolar.com> I was referring only to the MS PAE series. > On May 26, 2020, at 1:51 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > >  > Which model magnum can do this please? > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 >> On Mon, 25 May 2020 19:26:07 -0600, Sindelar Solar wrote: >> >> I believe that Magnum can handle an imbalance of up to 85%. I haven't found this in the inverter manual, but believe that I got it from tech support. >> >> Allan >> >>> On 5/25/2020 4:03 PM, Jay wrote: >>> Hi Mark >>> This was a big advantage of the older FX inverters was the use of the balancing transformer. The new FXR can't use it. >>> I can't find but I had to call OB to get some info on how much you could out of balance a Radian inverter. It was like 60% ,could have been a bit higher but wasn't 90-100% for sure. >>> Schneider xw is 75% >>> I don't know about magnum. >>> And yea gotta try and figure out the load balance. >>> Jay >>> Peltz Power. >> -- >> Allan Sindelar >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> 505 780-2738 cell >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue May 26 06:12:39 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 06:12:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery? In-Reply-To: <89861F9A-6A50-4025-8D42-B5AD8AAE68BF@gmail.com> References: <8bcf9c77806656ede184021bcc02dc96@127.0.0.1> <89861F9A-6A50-4025-8D42-B5AD8AAE68BF@gmail.com> Message-ID: I would use Concorde VRLA batteries. They can take a very fast charge. In certain conditions they can charge at C X 5 instead of C/5. --- On 2020-05-25 18:13, Jay wrote: > You might check out discover batteries. > I'm a big fan of companies they make their equipment, they do, one of the very few in the lithium world. > > And while the original question specifically asked about Lithium, what you're requiring is perfectly suited for VRLA float service batteries. > Long life, much lower cost. > > Jay > > Peltz power. > >> On May 25, 2020, at 2:37 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Jay knows about these and I won't name them just because I use them. They are the perfect size for most offgrid and scalable. > > I have a client in Texas who left them for 14 months off, and maybe they lost 1%. The best part of them for me, is all a client has to do is enter the date in the system control panel and all of the rest is done. True plug and play. Built by a company that has made locomotive batteries for decades. I asked them Jay on linkedin. He said do what you want with Soc. Don't worry about any of that. Just know that we have you covered. Below is from their latest webinar. > > For a solar installation to pass final inspection, the batteries must have been tested and approved to UL 1973. Not just the cell but the battery. So, before making a final selection, verify that the battery selection you make has you covered. These LiFePO4 batteries meet this certification, so you can be confident that your customers batteries are safe and pass inspection. Our commitment to safety, reliability and certification also delivers the following. > > * Safe and Maintenance Free > * Sophisticated High Current BMS > * Field Serviceable BMS > * IP 55 Rated > * IEC 62133 Safety > * UL 1973 Safety Certified > * UN 38.3 Transport Certified > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Sun, 24 May 2020 21:05:06 -0700, Jerry Shafer wrote: > It may take a little bit as it wrapped up just over 2 years ago, most of the research stayed at the lab. I do recall V2 did not survive the cycling test, it was unable to restart from 99% dod. There is no substitute for a multi-level battery management structure when it comes to Li tech. I have priced simplify dirt to keys and it cost more then Blue did and required more space. There was another one that came in near the end and was built in what appeared to be a 66" tall chemical storage cabinet just to make it fire rated, maybe it's just me but batteries that can catch fire may not be the best choice but hey I'm funny like that. Anyone installing any batteries needs to read the very fine print that talks about "what to do in case of" and that can be a deciding factor right there. > Way back when all FLA's had to be in a pan to catch the acid before it did damage, that was 20 years ago by now it should be safer not more dangerous. > > On Sun, May 24, 2020, 8:36 PM jay wrote: > HI Jerry, > > Most impressive. > > Would you be willing to tell us which ones didn't meet this test, if not publicly, then off list? > > thanks > > jay > > On May 24, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > Again not all batteries are the same, Chemistry, recharge rate or intelligence of the BMS, l have personally tested Blue planet batteries, l have let them sit at 100% SOC for 10 weeks, ran them at 30% SOC for 6 months, l have performed 100% to 0% cycling up to 4 times a day. This is the same tests l ran on a variety of Li tech batteries and BluePlanet is the only one that survived this testing. It's ore then spec sheets and cost, it comes down to success or failure, personally l like success and being able to pass or fail batteries without having my customers pay the price is a good thing. Blue Planet has 8000 cycles life and a 15 year warranty at 70% compare that to anything out there but again that's just me. > > On Sun, May 24, 2020, 1:32 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: > I have spoken with a li battery > researcher. Do not charge over 85% of battery full charge voltage and they will last over 25 years. But go above or below bottom and trouble > > On Sun, May 24, 2020, 10:27 AM Jay wrote: > > One question I have for those more versed than me in lithium is, I'm under the impression that having a lithium battery in float for years isn't good for it. Or at the very least it has to be cycled with some regularity. > > I'd like to hear data on that > > Thx > Jay > > Peltz power. > > On May 23, 2020, at 10:08 PM, Ray wrote: > > I suggest starting with a very simple look at the continuous output rating of the battery and match that to the inverter continuous rating. This ends up with quite a bit more battery than you might think at first. However, if the customer paid the big bucks for a battery backup system, they should at least get enough battery to operate the inverter at its rated power. Anything less, I would consider poor design. The same goes for lead acid batteries, they just don't work well, even on grid, when the battery is undersized. Even lead acid batteries have maximum current output ratings that should at least be matched to the inverter rating. > > If you WERE going to under size the battery, then you should keep it safe by reducing the size of the inverter battery breaker as well. I know this "micro battery for GTB" is becoming a trend, but it doesn't mean its right. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 5/23/20 5:48 PM, Mick Abraham wrote: > Greetings, All~ Mark Frye had asked: "...with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC coupled with 2000w of PV, what is the smallest Li battery I would want for stable operation?" > > Mick's reply: In the lithium arena, one often finds the ratings in kilowatt-hours rather than in amp-hours. This is an easy conversion for us energy nerds to make, so below I'm mainly using watts & watt-hours with occasional conversions to amp-hours. > > I suggest that you start with the spec sheet (of whichever brand lithium battery is on your radar), & see what the manufacturer says about "allowable rate of recharge". You may find that C/2 is an acceptable rate with several manufacturers, Mark--much faster than what we're accustomed to with typical lead-acid batteries. Let's assume: > > * ...that your AC coupled PV array crests around 1800 watts to the battery when there are no loads > * ...that the battery is below 100% state of charge, and > * ...that the solar conditions are optimal. > > Let's further assume that those conditions represent your battery's highest energy rate in either direction. > > 1800w X two hours = 3,600 watt-hours dividing by 48v nominal = 75 amp-hours in the above hypothetical situation. > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > The rate at which a battery can receive energy is (usually) also the rate at which it can comfortably deplete, so let's briefly look at the flip side: Assuming the battery mfr. wants the watt-hours to be no less than two times the maximum wattage, a 3600 watt-hour (C/2) battery should not be depleted faster than 1800 watts. Your 4kW Radian, Mark, could exceed that if the loads demand it--& maybe your loads don't. Motor starting surges should probably be part of the thinking & it wouldn't hurt to ask the mfr.'s opinion about short term surges which briefly deplete the battery faster than the hypothetical two hour rate. > > By approaching this question based on the battery manufacturer do's & don'ts, one improves the chance of getting warranty coverage should it later be needed. "What the large print giveth, the fine print taketh away." > > The Wrench List is the Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com [3] > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [4] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [4] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [4] Links: ------ [1] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ [3] http://www.abrahamsolar.com/ [4] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Tue May 26 12:09:38 2020 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 12:09:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Renewal of SolarEdge Monitoring for cell modem Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I have a Solar Edge site which has a cell modem installed. It had a 5 year monitoring contract and that has now expired. Anyone know what the process is to get this extended/renewed? With Kind Regards Carl Adams President, SunRock Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Tue May 26 12:46:26 2020 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 09:46:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery? In-Reply-To: References: <8bcf9c77806656ede184021bcc02dc96@127.0.0.1> <89861F9A-6A50-4025-8D42-B5AD8AAE68BF@gmail.com> Message-ID: Humm...suppose I wanted for myself some lead calcium flooded batteries, about 100 AH at 48 V, anyone have an idea of a good vendor? On 5/26/2020 3:12 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > I would use Concorde VRLA batteries. They can take a very fast charge. > In certain conditions they can charge at C X 5 instead of C/5. > > > > --- > > > On 2020-05-25 18:13, Jay wrote: > >> You might check out discover batteries. >> I'm a big fan of companies they make their equipment, they do, one of >> the very few in the lithium world. >> And while the original question specifically asked about Lithium, >> what you're requiring is perfectly suited for VRLA float service >> batteries. >> Long life, much lower cost. >> Jay >> Peltz power. >> >>> On May 25, 2020, at 2:37 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> wrote: >>> >>> Jay knows about these and I won't name them just because I use >>> them.  They are the perfect size for most offgrid and scalable. >>> >>> I have a client in Texas who left them for 14 months off, and maybe >>> they lost 1%. The best part of them for me, is all a client has to >>> do is enter the date in the system control panel and all of the rest >>> is done. True plug and play. Built by a company that has made >>> locomotive batteries for decades. I asked them Jay on linkedin.  He >>> said do what you want with Soc. Don't worry about any of that. Just >>> know that we have you covered. Below is from their latest webinar. >>> >>> For a solar installation to pass final inspection, the batteries >>> must have been tested and approved to UL 1973. Not just the cell but >>> the battery. So, before making a final selection, verify that the >>> battery selection you make has you covered. These LiFePO_4 >>>  batteries meet this certification, so you can be confident that >>> your customers batteries are safe and pass inspection. Our >>> commitment to safety, reliability and certification also delivers >>> the following. >>> >>> * Safe and Maintenance Free >>> * Sophisticated High Current BMS >>> * Field Serviceable BMS >>> * IP 55 Rated >>> * IEC 62133 Safety >>> * UL 1973 Safety Certified >>> * UN 38.3 Transport Certified >>> >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> On Sun, 24 May 2020 21:05:06 -0700, Jerry Shafer >>> wrote: >>> >>> It may take a little bit as it wrapped up just over 2 years ago, >>> most of the research stayed at the lab. I do recall V2 did not >>> survive the cycling test, it was unable to restart from 99% dod. >>> There is no substitute for a multi-level battery management >>> structure when it comes to Li tech. I have priced simplify dirt >>> to keys and it cost more then Blue did and required more space. >>> There was another one that came in near the end and was built in >>> what appeared to be a 66" tall chemical storage cabinet just to >>> make it fire rated, maybe it's just me but batteries that can >>> catch fire may not be the best choice but hey I'm funny like >>> that. Anyone installing any batteries needs to read the very >>> fine print that talks about "what to do in case of" and that can >>> be a deciding factor right there. >>> Way back when all FLA's had to be in a pan to catch the acid >>> before it did damage, that was 20 years ago by now it should be >>> safer not more dangerous. >>> >>> On Sun, May 24, 2020, 8:36 PM jay >> > wrote: >>> >>> HI Jerry, >>> Most impressive. >>> Would you be willing to tell us which ones didn't meet this >>> test, if not publicly, then off list? >>> thanks >>> jay >>> >>> >>> On May 24, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Jerry Shafer >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> Wrenches >>> Again not all batteries are the same, Chemistry, >>> recharge rate or intelligence of the BMS, l have >>> personally tested Blue planet batteries, l have let them >>> sit at 100% SOC for 10 weeks, ran them at 30% SOC for 6 >>> months, l have performed 100% to 0% cycling up to 4 >>> times a day. This is the same tests l ran on a variety >>> of Li tech batteries and BluePlanet is the only one that >>> survived this testing. It's ore then spec sheets and >>> cost, it comes down to success or failure, personally l >>> like success and being able to pass or fail batteries >>> without having my customers pay the price is a good >>> thing. Blue Planet has 8000 cycles life and a 15 year >>> warranty at 70% compare that to anything out there but >>> again that's just me. >>> >>> On Sun, May 24, 2020, 1:32 PM Darryl Thayer >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> I have spoken with a li battery >>> researcher. Do not charge over 85% of battery full >>> charge voltage and they will last over 25 years.  >>>  But go above or below bottom and trouble >>> >>> On Sun, May 24, 2020, 10:27 AM Jay >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> One question I have for those more versed than >>> me in lithium is, I'm under the impression that >>> having a lithium battery in float for years >>> isn't good for it. Or at the very least it has >>> to be cycled with some regularity. >>> I'd like to hear data on that >>> Thx >>> Jay >>> Peltz power. >>> >>> On May 23, 2020, at 10:08 PM, Ray >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> I suggest starting with a very simple look >>> at the continuous output rating of the >>> battery and match that to the inverter >>> continuous rating. This ends up with quite a >>> bit more battery than you might think at >>> first. However, if the customer paid the big >>> bucks for a battery backup system, they >>> should at least get enough battery to >>> operate the inverter at its rated power. >>> Anything less, I would consider poor design. >>> The same goes for lead acid batteries, they >>> just don't work well, even on grid, when the >>> battery is undersized. Even lead acid >>> batteries have maximum current output >>> ratings that should at least be matched to >>> the inverter rating. >>> >>> If you WERE going to under size the battery, >>> then you should keep it safe by reducing the >>> size of the inverter battery breaker as >>> well.   I know this "micro battery for GTB" >>> is becoming a trend, but it doesn't mean its >>> right. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> On 5/23/20 5:48 PM, Mick Abraham wrote: >>> >>> Greetings, All~ Mark Frye had asked:  >>> "...with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC >>> coupled with 2000w of PV, what is the >>> smallest Li battery I would want for >>> stable operation?" >>> Mick's reply: In the lithium arena, one >>> often finds the ratings in >>> kilowatt-hours rather than in amp-hours. >>> This is an easy conversion for us energy >>> nerds to make, so below I'm mainly using >>> watts & watt-hours with occasional >>> conversions to amp-hours. >>> I suggest that you start with the spec >>> sheet (of whichever brand lithium >>> battery is on your radar), & see what >>> the manufacturer says about "allowable >>> rate of recharge". You may find that C/2 >>> is an acceptable rate with several >>> manufacturers, Mark--much faster than >>> what we're accustomed to with typical >>> lead-acid batteries. Let's assume: >>> * ...that your AC coupled PV array >>> crests around 1800 watts to the battery >>> when there are no loads >>> * ...that the battery is below 100% >>> state of charge, and >>> * ...that the solar conditions are optimal. >>> Let's further assume that >>> those conditions represent your >>> battery's highest energy rate in either >>> direction. >>> 1800w X two hours = 3,600 watt-hours >>> dividing by 48v nominal = 75 amp-hours >>> in the above hypothetical situation. >>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>> The rate at which a battery can receive >>> energy is (usually) also the rate at >>> which it can comfortably deplete, so >>> let's briefly look at the flip side: >>> Assuming the battery mfr. wants the >>> watt-hours to be no less than two times >>> the maximum wattage, a 3600 watt-hour >>> (C/2) battery should not be depleted >>> faster than 1800 watts. Your 4kW Radian, >>> Mark, could exceed that if the loads >>> demand it--& maybe your loads don't. >>> Motor starting surges should probably be >>> part of the thinking & it wouldn't hurt >>> to ask the mfr.'s opinion about short >>> term surges which briefly deplete the >>> battery faster than the hypothetical two >>> hour rate. >>> By approaching this question based on >>> the battery manufacturer do's & don'ts, >>> one improves the chance of getting >>> warranty coverage should it later be >>> needed. "What the large print giveth, >>> the fine print taketh away." >>> The Wrench List is the Bomb! >>> >>> Mick Abraham, Proprietor >>> www.abrahamsolar.com >>> >>> >>> Landline: 970-731-4675 >>> Cell phone or for text messaging: >>> 970-946-6584 >>> ᐧ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: >>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue May 26 13:47:46 2020 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 10:47:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery? Message-ID: Hi Mark, One of the many benefits of Li-ion is the ability to provide much higher continuous current than any comparable size LA battery. You don’t need more than 2kWh (40Ah) and want to know the smallest battery you can use. To directly answer your question: A 60AH Elite Power Solutions (GBS cells) battery bank @ 48V has about 3 kWh of energy storage. This is a tiny battery bank, just 20”L x 11”W and weighs only 80 pounds. However, it can provide a whopping 9kW (3C) continuous output and up to 31kW momentarily! Thats much more than you will likely ever use. Though hard to imagine, this will work with your inverter. We have built several 3kW inverter systems @ 12V with a single 100AH battery for starting heavy loads like air compressors and air conditioners. No problem. Whether this is the “best practice” will require more discussion. Let me know if you need more detailed help as we have many years experience with Li-ion battery systems. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems From: Mark Frye > Subject: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery? In the way back machine I remember being at a product roll out meeting for the brand new Outback FX inverter. I asked the engineer, what was the smallest battery bank that could be connected to the inverter. He said on the fly that probably you would want the battery to "weight" at least as much as the inverter. I thought that was a great answer. Fast forward, with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC coupled with 2000w of PV, what is the smallest Li battery I would want for stable operation? My loads don't really need more than 40ah of capacity. What is the latest best practice on this? Thanks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Tue May 26 15:24:55 2020 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 12:24:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Larry, I am familiar with GBS cells. Would you scold me too badly if I told you my thought that with modest discharge rates and on the charge side, with cell balancers installed, and limiting the charge current to 15A, one doesn't really need the BMS for the 60AH pack? On 5/26/2020 10:47 AM, larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: > Hi Mark, > > One of the many benefits of Li-ion is the ability to provide much > higher continuous current than any comparable size LA battery. > > You don’t need more than 2kWh (40Ah) and want to know the smallest > battery you can use. To directly answer your question: A 60AH Elite > Power Solutions (GBS cells) battery bank @ 48V has about 3 kWh of > energy storage. This is a tiny battery bank, just 20”L x 11”W and > weighs only 80 pounds. However, it can provide a whopping 9kW (3C) > continuous output and up to 31kW momentarily! Thats much more than you > will likely ever use. > > Though hard to imagine, this will work with your inverter. We have > built several 3kW inverter systems @ 12V with a single 100AH battery > for starting heavy loads like air compressors and air conditioners. No > problem. Whether this is the “best practice” will require more > discussion. Let me know if you need more detailed help as we have many > years experience with Li-ion battery systems. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > From: Mark Frye > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery? > > In the way back machine I remember being at a product roll out meeting > for the brand new Outback FX inverter. I asked the engineer, what was > the smallest battery bank that could be connected to the inverter. He > said on the fly that probably you would want the battery to "weight" at > least as much as the inverter. I thought that was a great answer. > > Fast forward, with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC coupled with 2000w of PV, > what is the smallest Li battery I would want for stable operation? > > My loads don't really need more than 40ah of capacity. > > What is the latest best practice on this? > > Thanks. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Dana at solarwork.com Tue May 26 18:24:14 2020 From: Dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 15:24:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian inverter high pitch whisteling Message-ID: <03a701d633ac$64092240$2c1b66c0$@com> O-Wise ones; I have a Radian 8KW off-grid system. I am getting intermittent (one day it is there & then the next it is not) very high pitched & faint but continually rising pitch whistling & white noise on the stereo, the boom box, basically anything with a speaker. First suspect was: Pentair variable freq. & variable voltage 3P wild AC well pump & controller, but the sound happens when the pump is off or on. The controller is always on/awake. 2nd suspect: 1 HP septic lift pump, again sound happens weather on or off. Which gets me back to the inverter. I have not contacted Outback Eng. As most of the techs are younger than the Radian inverter series... Anyone else encountered this? Suggestions on getting rid of this? The House has metal roof & walls for wildfire protection & systems are extremely shielded & grounded. It is not audible while music playing at normal volumes & only heard while in between selections or extremely quiet passages. As always; Thanks for the suggestions in advance. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel NABCEP # 051112-136 Cell - 208.721.7003 Email - dana at solarwork.com Great Solar Works, Idaho Inc www.solarwork.biz ID PV Contractor - # 028765 - ID PV Electrician # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue May 26 17:41:02 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 14:41:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian inverter high pitch whisteling In-Reply-To: <03a701d633ac$64092240$2c1b66c0$@com> References: <03a701d633ac$64092240$2c1b66c0$@com> Message-ID: Wrenches New or older system, first l would check all your connections both AC and DC as it may be a bad or loose connection, has anything changed? I would next continue with your direction by shutting down loads while you can here the noise. What type of lighting do you have, I have ran Outbacks for outdoor concerts without any issue both the FX and Radian. Metal is also an antenna for noise, is your inverter the grounding location inside where the neutral and ground are bonded. On Tue, May 26, 2020, 2:20 PM Dana wrote: > O-Wise ones; > > > > I have a Radian 8KW off-grid system. I am getting intermittent (one day it > is there & then the next it is not) very high pitched & faint but > continually rising pitch whistling & white noise on the stereo, the boom > box, basically anything with a speaker. > > > > First suspect was: Pentair variable freq. & variable voltage 3P wild AC > well pump & controller, but the sound happens when the pump is off or on. > The controller is always on/awake. > > 2nd suspect: 1 HP septic lift pump, again sound happens weather on or > off. > > > > Which gets me back to the inverter. I have not contacted Outback Eng. As > most of the techs are younger than the Radian inverter series….. > > > > Anyone else encountered this? > > Suggestions on getting rid of this? > > The House has metal roof & walls for wildfire protection & systems are > extremely shielded & grounded. > > It is not audible while music playing at normal volumes & only heard while > in between selections or extremely quiet passages. > > > > As always; Thanks for the suggestions in advance. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel NABCEP # 051112-136 > > Cell - 208.721.7003 Email - dana at solarwork.com > > Great Solar Works, Idaho Inc www.solarwork.biz > > ID PV Contractor - # 028765 - ID PV Electrician # 028374 > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue May 26 18:32:06 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 15:32:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian inverter high pitch whisteling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Another simple test is to start the generator when this happens. Does it continue with the generator, then it’s a load somewhere. If not then more digging. I’ve not had this issue before but with the radian you can turn off one or the other power modules which can narrow that down. I have had PM failure before. Was a very early version. Jay Peltz power. > On May 26, 2020, at 2:41 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > >  > Wrenches > New or older system, first l would check all your connections both AC and DC as it may be a bad or loose connection, has anything changed? I would next continue with your direction by shutting down loads while you can here the noise. What type of lighting do you have, I have ran Outbacks for outdoor concerts without any issue both the FX and Radian. Metal is also an antenna for noise, is your inverter the grounding location inside where the neutral and ground are bonded. > >> On Tue, May 26, 2020, 2:20 PM Dana wrote: >> O-Wise ones; >> >> >> >> I have a Radian 8KW off-grid system. I am getting intermittent (one day it is there & then the next it is not) very high pitched & faint but continually rising pitch whistling & white noise on the stereo, the boom box, basically anything with a speaker. >> >> >> >> First suspect was: Pentair variable freq. & variable voltage 3P wild AC well pump & controller, but the sound happens when the pump is off or on. The controller is always on/awake. >> >> 2nd suspect: 1 HP septic lift pump, again sound happens weather on or off. >> >> >> >> Which gets me back to the inverter. I have not contacted Outback Eng. As most of the techs are younger than the Radian inverter series….. >> >> >> >> Anyone else encountered this? >> >> Suggestions on getting rid of this? >> >> The House has metal roof & walls for wildfire protection & systems are extremely shielded & grounded. >> >> It is not audible while music playing at normal volumes & only heard while in between selections or extremely quiet passages. >> >> >> >> As always; Thanks for the suggestions in advance. >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Dana Orzel NABCEP # 051112-136 >> >> Cell - 208.721.7003 Email - dana at solarwork.com >> >> Great Solar Works, Idaho Inc www.solarwork.biz >> >> ID PV Contractor - # 028765 - ID PV Electrician # 028374 >> >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >> >> Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed May 27 14:27:15 2020 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 11:27:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10DB3F11-5E51-47B4-8269-CE3E231D062F@starlightsolar.com> Mark, It is conceivable to use Li-ion without protection. To do so you must ALWAYS guarantee that you will not over charge, over current, over discharge or charge frozen cells…ever. This is a 0 tolerance rule. In a RE system, how can you be 100% sure? Modest rates is not the issue. It’s already difficult to overcurrent the GBS cells. Over voltage a cell just once and you can cause damage or possibly fire. Similarly, if you over discharge a cell just once you can damage it and may cause a future fire while charging it normally. Cell balancers only reduce a small amount of current on a single cell that is becoming saturated. It won’t stop over voltage. To my knowledge there is no safe way to have a Li battery system without BMS/EMS unless you are always in control of charge/discharge events. Scold…now that you know, yes, consider yourself scolded. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On May 26, 2020, at 12:24 PM, Mark Frye wrote: Thanks Larry, I am familiar with GBS cells. Would you scold me too badly if I told you my thought that with modest discharge rates and on the charge side, with cell balancers installed, and limiting the charge current to 15A, one doesn't really need the BMS for the 60AH pack? On 5/26/2020 10:47 AM, larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: > Hi Mark, > > One of the many benefits of Li-ion is the ability to provide much higher continuous current than any comparable size LA battery. > > You don’t need more than 2kWh (40Ah) and want to know the smallest battery you can use. To directly answer your question: A 60AH Elite Power Solutions (GBS cells) battery bank @ 48V has about 3 kWh of energy storage. This is a tiny battery bank, just 20”L x 11”W and weighs only 80 pounds. However, it can provide a whopping 9kW (3C) continuous output and up to 31kW momentarily! Thats much more than you will likely ever use. > > Though hard to imagine, this will work with your inverter. We have built several 3kW inverter systems @ 12V with a single 100AH battery for starting heavy loads like air compressors and air conditioners. No problem. Whether this is the “best practice” will require more discussion. Let me know if you need more detailed help as we have many years experience with Li-ion battery systems. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > From: Mark Frye > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery? > > In the way back machine I remember being at a product roll out meeting > for the brand new Outback FX inverter. I asked the engineer, what was > the smallest battery bank that could be connected to the inverter. He > said on the fly that probably you would want the battery to "weight" at > least as much as the inverter. I thought that was a great answer. > > Fast forward, with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC coupled with 2000w of PV, > what is the smallest Li battery I would want for stable operation? > > My loads don't really need more than 40ah of capacity. > > What is the latest best practice on this? > > Thanks. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Fri May 29 11:44:56 2020 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 08:44:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goal of charge regulation FLA vs LiFePo Message-ID: Folks, A few questions: When charging a FLA battery, even though we use a three stage charging regime controlling voltage/current, is it not true that the real goal is to avoid excess temperature rise inside the cell generally? Do we worry that excess current will cause localized excess heating with the cell and subsequent mechanical breakdown? Do we worry that excess voltage will cause some kind of electro-chemical breakdown? If control of excess temperature rise is not the goal of charge regulation, what is the goal? Having defined the goal for FLA how is it the same or different for a LiFePo? I am pretty sure it is much easier to damage a Li with bad charging, but why? Thanks, Mark From solman at legacysolar.com Fri May 29 13:50:12 2020 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 12:50:12 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module Request Message-ID: Greetings Wrenches, I have an unusual request. I have a top of pole rack that was designed incorrectly for the intended modules and i am looking for a dimensional match in a 60 cell module. If you happen to have 12 modules that fit the bill, please contact me off list. (Racking is designed for Jinko JKM320M-60) Required dimensions: Overall: 992mm x 1650mm Mounting holes: 942mm x 860mm Thanks, Kris Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 29 12:07:22 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 09:07:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goal of charge regulation FLA vs LiFePo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7ba34e146671191918e9bde482faf499@127.0.0.1> The only time I worry about temperature in a FLA is during a corrective EQ as opposed to a preventative EQ. If the cells are really way off I just EQ at the recommended V for 5+ hours and then measure SG. I have no worries unless the temp is outside the max recommendation. At that point I would terminate EQ. I would look at age and probably replace the bank. Pretty simple old mature technology. I have saved quite a few this way. Not always though. For LFP I want the BMS to do the worrying about temperature. I still want to see temp on my monitor or phone. The way that the battery is constructed counts alot to me. It is easier to damage Lithium, I agree with you. Below is from one of the best makes I have seen and used. LiFePO4 batteries with LiFePO4 cells are the best for solar battery applications because they: are very thermally stable with no risk of thermal runaway; offer the longest cycle life; can be recharged at a high 1C rate; can handle heavy loading and high current discharge rates. For a solar installation to pass final inspection, the batteries must have been tested and approved to UL 1973. So, before making a final selection, verify that the battery selection you make has you covered. Rest assured, Discover AES LiFePO4 batteries meet this certification, so you can be confident that your customers batteries are safe and pass inspection. Our commitment to safety, reliability and certification also delivers the following. Safe and Maintenance Free Sophisticated High Current BMS Field Serviceable BMS IP 55 Rated IEC 62133 Safety UL 1973 Safety Certified UN 38.3 Transport Certified Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 29 May 2020 08:44:56 -0700, Mark Frye wrote: > Folks, > > A few questions: > > When charging a FLA battery, even though we use a three stage charging > regime controlling voltage/current, is it not true that the real goal is > to avoid excess temperature rise inside the cell generally? Do we worry > that excess current will cause localized excess heating with the cell > and subsequent mechanical breakdown? Do we worry that excess voltage > will cause some kind of electro-chemical breakdown? > > If control of excess temperature rise is not the goal of charge > regulation, what is the goal? > > Having defined the goal for FLA how is it the same or different for a > LiFePo? > > I am pretty sure it is much easier to damage a Li with bad charging, but > why? > > Thanks, > > Mark > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 29 14:46:19 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 11:46:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] emergency repair down in Baj Message-ID: <0c1938f99bb437a31d4be65799d184d4@127.0.0.1> Outback Gurus, I got this text from a friend. I do not know the years on any of this. The control board on a gvfx 3648 went out on me and a friend has a spare vfx 3648 control board that I can borrow. Does anyone here have actual experience with using a vfx control board in a gvfx inverter? A "guy" said that the FET and AC boards are the same in the 2 inverters and he thought it should work fine. I'm in Baja and there aren't too many options to getting the correct part down here in a timely fashion. I'm offgrid and do not have a grid option either. My generator is getting some overtime use now. Thx! FRIDAY ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri May 29 17:29:22 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 14:29:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goal of charge regulation FLA vs LiFePo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches. Mark Any good Lithium ion phosphate tech battery has a BMU that protects the battery from over charge and over temp, different brands may have different ways and values, In most cases the inverter battery temp sensor is not used on a LFP batteries and the BMU will control both battery internal temps and voltage. A good LFP battery has very high round trip efficiency reducing temperature converting to heat both charge and discharge FLA is less susceptible to voltage but temps will damage the FLA and the BTS is very important and will help to prevent meltdown, it is important to monitor and fill FLA's in the event of either temps or voltages higher then recommended. Sealed AGM is very susceptible to over voltage and high temps and will damage the battery that it may not recover from. Battery management systems or Units are a great addition to the battery back up and off grid technologies and the BTS is a old school way to monitor the battery and it is very important to have the sensor between the batteries as much in the center as possible and I have seen systems shut down due to high temps that resulted from a shorted battery causing over voltage overheating the remainder and shutting down the inverter. There are several Lithium technologies, all with different characteristics, some are light weight, some are flammable, some will last forever, some are inexpensive so check out the tech in your battery, phosphate, cobalt, manganese, magnesium, lead, and iron, plus many more out there. Jerry On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 8:45 AM Mark Frye wrote: > Folks, > > A few questions: > > When charging a FLA battery, even though we use a three stage charging > regime controlling voltage/current, is it not true that the real goal is > to avoid excess temperature rise inside the cell generally? Do we worry > that excess current will cause localized excess heating with the cell > and subsequent mechanical breakdown? Do we worry that excess voltage > will cause some kind of electro-chemical breakdown? > > If control of excess temperature rise is not the goal of charge > regulation, what is the goal? > > Having defined the goal for FLA how is it the same or different for a > LiFePo? > > I am pretty sure it is much easier to damage a Li with bad charging, but > why? > > Thanks, > > Mark > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Fri May 29 22:19:54 2020 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 22:19:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] emergency repair down in Baj In-Reply-To: <0c1938f99bb437a31d4be65799d184d4@127.0.0.1> References: <0c1938f99bb437a31d4be65799d184d4@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Dave, Yes, they are interchangable and using it will make the inverter an off grid version. I have done that to several grid tie versions as I do mostly off grid work. Yes, the AC Bd and the FET board and transformer are all the same.. The GVFX control board is for grid tie and usually does not allow a generator to feed in as the GVFX version sells to the grid and has stricter voltage and frequency limits. Sometimes a generator can feed but selling has to be disabled and I have had it work only once. Have tried to get my honda 2000 to charge again with a gvfx but no luck. John Blittersdorf CV Wind On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 3:51 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Outback Gurus, > > I got this text from a friend. I do not know the years on any of this. > > The control board on a gvfx 3648 went out on me and a friend has a spare > vfx 3648 control board that I can borrow. Does anyone here have actual > experience with using a vfx control board in a gvfx inverter? A "guy" said > that the FET and AC boards are the same in the 2 inverters and he thought > it should work fine. I'm in Baja and there aren't too many options to > getting the correct part down here in a timely fashion. I'm offgrid and do > not have a grid option either. My generator is getting some overtime use > now. > Thx! FRIDAY ! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jun 1 10:23:35 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 10:23:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d62f78$5de7c660$19b75320$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks and then trip again. I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole system apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel that I need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive proposition. I really don't know what else to do at this point. Jason On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we will > see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I have > two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined breaker. > I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping > simultaneously with the combined output breaker. > > Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have never > seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen many > combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would be > replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. > > > > > > > On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: > >> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max >> string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string’s >> associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >> >> >> >> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped again. We >> replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the breaker was >> less than perfect from the start as we’ve add equally nice days since. >> >> >> >> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 watts >> but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra careful >> going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published… >> >> >> >> My story. >> >> >> >> Scot >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >> >> >> >> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and >> Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters >> each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >> >> >> >> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and >> the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been >> tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 >> months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, >> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >> >> >> >> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different >> branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We >> checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely >> that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched >> out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. >> >> >> >> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers >> crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another >> diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One >> thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible >> disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line >> fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if >> there is in fact a fault. >> >> >> >> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase systems >> in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned out to be >> branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on different >> breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault which >> eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out of >> it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This case >> seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Jun 1 10:27:46 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 10:27:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d62f78$5de7c660$19b75320$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Is it at all weather related?  Rain, or high humidity?  High temperatures?  Do you have any indication what time of day it trips off at? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit > breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. > > As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker > they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two > weeks and then trip again. > > I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole system > apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel that > I need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive > proposition. I really don't know what else to do at this point. > > Jason > > > On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we > will see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I > doubt I have two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be > the combined breaker. I was just surprised that branch circuit > breakers were tripping simultaneously with the combined output > breaker. > > Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have > never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I > have seen many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried > early on that I would be replacing fuses constantly, but that has > not been an issue whatsoever. > > > > > > * > > * > > > On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM > wrote: > > Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size > and max string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it > tripped the string’s associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. > > We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it > tripped again. We replaced and never had an issue going > forward. We suspect the breaker was less than perfect from the > start as we’ve add equally nice days since. > > This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says > 4,000 watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. > I will be extra careful going forward on IQ7 string length > when going to the max published… > > My story. > > Scot > > *From:* RE-wrenches > *On Behalf > Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng > > I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with > and Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 > microinverters each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. > > What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit > breakers and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed > load center have been tripping simultaneously. It has happened > about four times in the last 6 months. It was always the same > branch circuit breaker, so we kept investigating that string, > checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, etc. Finally > we swapped out the BR220 breaker. > > Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a > different branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped > simultaneously. We checked that branch circuit and could not > find any fault. It seems unlikely that two branch circuit > breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched out the > CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. > > I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my > fingers crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any > suggestions on another diagnostic step? These intermittent > problems are a major hassle. One thought I had was to switch > to a supply side interconnection with a fusible disconnect. > Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line > fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the > fault is on if there is in fact a fault. > > I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with > Enphase systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I > installed. One turned out to be branch circuits that were not > properly paired up and landed on different breakers. Another > time we had an inverter with an internal fault which > eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke > billowing out of it. That happened after resetting a trip > breaker multiple times. This case seems to be unrelated to > those issues. I'm perplexed. > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Jun 1 10:28:13 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 07:28:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d62f78$5de7c660$19b75320$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Hi Jason - I know I've mentioned this before, but were you able to verify that the branch trunk cable end caps are properly installed? We've had a few cases of intermittent breaker tripping where the end caps were not installed, had fallen off, or not properly installed. A little moisture leads to shorts. August On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 7:23 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit > breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. > > As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker they > are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks and > then trip again. > > I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole system > apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel that I > need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive proposition. I > really don't know what else to do at this point. > > Jason > > > On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we will >> see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I have >> two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined breaker. >> I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping >> simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >> >> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have never >> seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen many >> combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would be >> replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: >> >>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max >>> string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string’s >>> associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>> >>> >>> >>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped again. >>> We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the breaker >>> was less than perfect from the start as we’ve add equally nice days since. >>> >>> >>> >>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 watts >>> but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra careful >>> going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published… >>> >>> >>> >>> My story. >>> >>> >>> >>> Scot >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and >>> Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters >>> each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>> >>> >>> >>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and >>> the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been >>> tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 >>> months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >>> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, >>> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>> >>> >>> >>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different >>> branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We >>> checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely >>> that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched >>> out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers >>> crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another >>> diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One >>> thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible >>> disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line >>> fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if >>> there is in fact a fault. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase >>> systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned >>> out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on >>> different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault >>> which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out >>> of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This >>> case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bryan at pv-cables.com Mon Jun 1 10:29:30 2020 From: Bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 07:29:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d62f78$5de7c660$19b75320$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <00a401d63821$104a7680$30df6380$@pv-cables.com> Are the module pv connectors, the same brand as the pv connectors on the Enphase inverters? Bryan Norkunas bryan at pv-cables.com Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140 PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com Description: Description: cid:image002.jpg at 01CD22E8.974B6470 Please print only if necessary. NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Monday, June 1, 2020 7:24 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks and then trip again. I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole system apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel that I need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive proposition. I really don't know what else to do at this point. Jason On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we will see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I have two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined breaker. I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping simultaneously with the combined output breaker. Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would be replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string’s associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped again. We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the breaker was less than perfect from the start as we’ve add equally nice days since. This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra careful going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published… My story. Scot From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if there is in fact a fault. I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Error! Filename not specified. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 27561 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1367 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 10:53:00 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 07:53:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d62f78$5de7c660$19b75320$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <7DD30487-5AD9-42B0-B044-B8515D8007F9@gmail.com> Hi Jason, My curiosity is about both breakers tripping. I would suggest using a larger output breaker, I believe its a 40, put in a 50 as a test. I would assume the wire size will still be protected by the 50. And I would also ask if the breakers are actual CH or clones? jay peltz power > On Jun 1, 2020, at 7:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. > > As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks and then trip again. > > I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole system apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel that I need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive proposition. I really don't know what else to do at this point. > > Jason > > > On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we will see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I have two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined breaker. I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping simultaneously with the combined output breaker. > > Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would be replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. > > > > > > > On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM > wrote: > Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string’s associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. > > > > We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped again. We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the breaker was less than perfect from the start as we’ve add equally nice days since. > > > > This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra careful going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published… > > > > My story. > > > > Scot > > > > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski > Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng > > > > I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. > > > > What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. > > > > Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. > > > > I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if there is in fact a fault. > > > > I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jun 1 10:50:47 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 07:50:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d62f78$5de7c660$19b75320$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <4707662c8b74ba5979be9b5bcc0b3510@127.0.0.1> Run the system without the branch that tripped. Sorry if I missed that you have done this. I appreciate you reminding me why I keep all of the electronics inside. I get tempted Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 10:23:35 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks and then trip again. I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole system apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel that I need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive proposition. I really don't know what else to do at this point. Jason On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we will see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I have two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined breaker. I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping simultaneously with the combined output breaker. Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would be replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string's associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped again. We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the breaker was less than perfect from the start as we've add equally nice days since. This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra careful going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published... My story. Scot FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Jason Szumlanski SENT: Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if there is in fact a fault. I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [9] List rules " alt="" width="0" height="0" /> Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com [4] mailto:scot.arey at solarcentex.com [5] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/796b1796eb4c075a74298513a530f62e4a496cb2?notrack=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=c7dea131fd9cb45a [9] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/c06e48af2da3d129a58c08ef2043bd2d8fcbef6f?notrack=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&userId=1613865&signature=06899a19621f54d8 [10] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/215cb4d0fcfb04e4124aae9b2616249f1eef5542?notrack=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=8bc84049c81c183c [11] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/27c3e706e7f2b4836b1669b31c9454db7fee1b52?notrack=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=4a75a2d55681f39a -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Jun 1 11:33:16 2020 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 10:33:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason Can you check for heat? How close is the branch breaker to the main breaker? Maybe the bus bar is loose or the breaker is loose or wire is loose somewhere causing heat to trip the breaker. Thank you, Maverick > On Jun 1, 2020, at 9:24 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >  > Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. > > As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks and then trip again. > > I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole system apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel that I need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive proposition. I really don't know what else to do at this point. > > Jason > > >> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we will see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I have two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined breaker. I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >> >> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would be replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: >>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string’s associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>> >>> >>> >>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped again. We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the breaker was less than perfect from the start as we’ve add equally nice days since. >>> >>> >>> >>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra careful going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published… >>> >>> >>> >>> My story. >>> >>> >>> >>> Scot >>> >>> >>> >>> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski >>> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>> >>> >>> >>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>> >>> >>> >>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if there is in fact a fault. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jun 1 12:05:40 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 12:05:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d62f78$5de7c660$19b75320$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: It's not weather. It's at all times of the day and night, and I confirmed that there is no correlation to rain or high winds. That was my first suspicion. On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:27 AM Ray wrote: > Is it at all weather related? Rain, or high humidity? High > temperatures? Do you have any indication what time of day it trips off at? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit > breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. > > As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker they > are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks and > then trip again. > > I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole system > apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel that I > need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive proposition. I > really don't know what else to do at this point. > > Jason > > > On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we will >> see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I have >> two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined breaker. >> I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping >> simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >> >> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have never >> seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen many >> combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would be >> replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: >> >>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max >>> string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string’s >>> associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>> >>> >>> >>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped again. >>> We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the breaker >>> was less than perfect from the start as we’ve add equally nice days since. >>> >>> >>> >>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 watts >>> but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra careful >>> going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published… >>> >>> >>> >>> My story. >>> >>> >>> >>> Scot >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and >>> Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters >>> each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>> >>> >>> >>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and >>> the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been >>> tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 >>> months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >>> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, >>> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>> >>> >>> >>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different >>> branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We >>> checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely >>> that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched >>> out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers >>> crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another >>> diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One >>> thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible >>> disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line >>> fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if >>> there is in fact a fault. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase >>> systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned >>> out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on >>> different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault >>> which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out >>> of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This >>> case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jun 1 12:07:21 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 12:07:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d62f78$5de7c660$19b75320$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: That was the second thing I checked after the j-box. They all appear to be good. I replaced a questionable one, but the tripping continued. I have seen end cap issues before, especially if the hang down and get wet. There are no excess connectors with sealing caps, so it's not that, either. On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:28 AM August Goers wrote: > Hi Jason - I know I've mentioned this before, but were you able to verify > that the branch trunk cable end caps are properly installed? We've had a > few cases of intermittent breaker tripping where the end caps were not > installed, had fallen off, or not properly installed. A little moisture > leads to shorts. > > August > > > > > On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 7:23 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit >> breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. >> >> As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker they >> are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks and >> then trip again. >> >> I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole system >> apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel that I >> need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive proposition. I >> really don't know what else to do at this point. >> >> Jason >> >> >> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we will >>> see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I have >>> two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined breaker. >>> I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping >>> simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >>> >>> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have never >>> seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen many >>> combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would be >>> replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: >>> >>>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max >>>> string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string’s >>>> associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped again. >>>> We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the breaker >>>> was less than perfect from the start as we’ve add equally nice days since. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 watts >>>> but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra careful >>>> going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published… >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My story. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Scot >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and >>>> Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters >>>> each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and >>>> the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been >>>> tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 >>>> months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >>>> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, >>>> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different >>>> branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We >>>> checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely >>>> that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched >>>> out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers >>>> crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another >>>> diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One >>>> thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible >>>> disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line >>>> fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if >>>> there is in fact a fault. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase >>>> systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned >>>> out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on >>>> different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault >>>> which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out >>>> of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This >>>> case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jun 1 12:08:30 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 12:08:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: <4707662c8b74ba5979be9b5bcc0b3510@127.0.0.1> References: <014a01d62f78$5de7c660$19b75320$@solarcentex.com> <4707662c8b74ba5979be9b5bcc0b3510@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: The problem is the intermittent nature of the problem. It can take 2-weeks or more to trip again. The owner is not going to want to leave a string off for an indefinite period of time. On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 11:00 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Run the system without the branch that tripped. Sorry if I missed that you > have done this. I appreciate you reminding me why I keep all of the > electronics inside. I get tempted[image: Wink] > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 10:23:35 -0400, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit > breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. > > As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker they > are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks and > then trip again. > > I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole system > apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel that I > need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive proposition. I > really don't know what else to do at this point. > > Jason > > > On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we will >> see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I have >> two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined breaker. >> I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping >> simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >> >> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have never >> seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen many >> combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would be >> replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: >> >>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max >>> string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string's >>> associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>> >>> >>> >>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped again. >>> We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the breaker >>> was less than perfect from the start as we've add equally nice days since. >>> >>> >>> >>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 watts >>> but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra careful >>> going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published... >>> >>> >>> >>> My story. >>> >>> >>> >>> Scot >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and >>> Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters >>> each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>> >>> >>> >>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and >>> the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been >>> tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 >>> months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >>> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, >>> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>> >>> >>> >>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different >>> branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We >>> checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely >>> that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched >>> out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers >>> crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another >>> diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One >>> thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible >>> disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line >>> fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if >>> there is in fact a fault. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase >>> systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned >>> out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on >>> different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault >>> which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out >>> of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This >>> case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jun 1 12:11:44 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 12:11:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: <7DD30487-5AD9-42B0-B044-B8515D8007F9@gmail.com> References: <014a01d62f78$5de7c660$19b75320$@solarcentex.com> <7DD30487-5AD9-42B0-B044-B8515D8007F9@gmail.com> Message-ID: I considered that, but it's tripping at night, so it's not a power output issue. It does have #6 wire, so this could be done, but I don't think it's related. It's a genuine CH240 breaker. We even replaced it once before. At this point, I must have a fault or faults on the roof. Maybe a rodent chewed through some wires. I'm going to wait for another fault and then go pull the modules to check it out. On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 11:00 AM jay wrote: > Hi Jason, > > My curiosity is about both breakers tripping. > I would suggest using a larger output breaker, I believe its a 40, put in > a 50 as a test. I would assume the wire size will still be protected by > the 50. > > And I would also ask if the breakers are actual CH or clones? > > jay > > peltz power > > On Jun 1, 2020, at 7:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit > breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. > > As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker they > are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks and > then trip again. > > I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole system > apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel that I > need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive proposition. I > really don't know what else to do at this point. > > Jason > > > On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we will >> see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I have >> two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined breaker. >> I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping >> simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >> >> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have never >> seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen many >> combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would be >> replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: >> >>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max >>> string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string’s >>> associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>> >>> >>> >>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped again. >>> We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the breaker >>> was less than perfect from the start as we’ve add equally nice days since. >>> >>> >>> >>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 watts >>> but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra careful >>> going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published… >>> >>> >>> >>> My story. >>> >>> >>> >>> Scot >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and >>> Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters >>> each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>> >>> >>> >>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and >>> the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been >>> tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 >>> months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >>> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, >>> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>> >>> >>> >>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different >>> branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We >>> checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely >>> that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched >>> out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers >>> crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another >>> diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One >>> thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible >>> disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line >>> fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if >>> there is in fact a fault. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase >>> systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned >>> out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on >>> different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault >>> which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out >>> of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This >>> case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 12:01:33 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 09:01:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cad tel module info Message-ID: Hi All I’m wondering if anyone can point me to information or has information about the following 1. Can cad tel ( first solar) modules be recycled or are they toxic waste? 2. How much active material is there per module or maybe watt. It has to be really small. I’ve had someone ask me about comparing cad tel vs crystalline and I don’t have the answers. Thanks Jay Peltz power. From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 12:47:53 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 09:47:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d62f78$5de7c660$19b75320$@solarcentex.com> <7DD30487-5AD9-42B0-B044-B8515D8007F9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jason, Wrenches Can you install a data logger, say an eguage so you can see spikes or a frequency shift, surge, most anything. Install two non connected breakers to isolate the line, just for testing purposes and see if it's only one that pops. Jerry On Mon, Jun 1, 2020, 9:11 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I considered that, but it's tripping at night, so it's not a power output > issue. It does have #6 wire, so this could be done, but I don't think it's > related. It's a genuine CH240 breaker. We even replaced it once before. > > At this point, I must have a fault or faults on the roof. Maybe a rodent > chewed through some wires. I'm going to wait for another fault and then go > pull the modules to check it out. > > > > On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 11:00 AM jay wrote: > >> Hi Jason, >> >> My curiosity is about both breakers tripping. >> I would suggest using a larger output breaker, I believe its a 40, put in >> a 50 as a test. I would assume the wire size will still be protected by >> the 50. >> >> And I would also ask if the breakers are actual CH or clones? >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> On Jun 1, 2020, at 7:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit >> breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. >> >> As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker they >> are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks and >> then trip again. >> >> I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole system >> apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel that I >> need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive proposition. I >> really don't know what else to do at this point. >> >> Jason >> >> >> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we will >>> see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I have >>> two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined breaker. >>> I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping >>> simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >>> >>> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have never >>> seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen many >>> combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would be >>> replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: >>> >>>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max >>>> string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string’s >>>> associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped again. >>>> We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the breaker >>>> was less than perfect from the start as we’ve add equally nice days since. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 watts >>>> but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra careful >>>> going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published… >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My story. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Scot >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and >>>> Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters >>>> each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and >>>> the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been >>>> tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 >>>> months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >>>> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, >>>> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different >>>> branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We >>>> checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely >>>> that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched >>>> out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers >>>> crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another >>>> diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One >>>> thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible >>>> disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line >>>> fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if >>>> there is in fact a fault. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase >>>> systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned >>>> out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on >>>> different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault >>>> which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out >>>> of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This >>>> case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jun 1 13:00:42 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 13:00:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d62f78$5de7c660$19b75320$@solarcentex.com> <7DD30487-5AD9-42B0-B044-B8515D8007F9@gmail.com> Message-ID: I didn't think an eGauge would provide that granular of detail if there is a very brief intermittent issue. If I'm wrong about that it might be worth a try. What I really want to do is install a separate breaker in the main panel for the Envoy so it doesn't lose power when the IQ Combiner main breaker trips. I wonder if that would provide me any insight into what's happening immediately after the PV branch circuit and feeder circuit trip. On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 12:48 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Jason, Wrenches > Can you install a data logger, say an eguage so you can see spikes or a > frequency shift, surge, most anything. > Install two non connected breakers to isolate the line, just for testing > purposes and see if it's only one that pops. > Jerry > > > On Mon, Jun 1, 2020, 9:11 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I considered that, but it's tripping at night, so it's not a power output >> issue. It does have #6 wire, so this could be done, but I don't think it's >> related. It's a genuine CH240 breaker. We even replaced it once before. >> >> At this point, I must have a fault or faults on the roof. Maybe a rodent >> chewed through some wires. I'm going to wait for another fault and then go >> pull the modules to check it out. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 11:00 AM jay wrote: >> >>> Hi Jason, >>> >>> My curiosity is about both breakers tripping. >>> I would suggest using a larger output breaker, I believe its a 40, put >>> in a 50 as a test. I would assume the wire size will still be protected by >>> the 50. >>> >>> And I would also ask if the breakers are actual CH or clones? >>> >>> jay >>> >>> peltz power >>> >>> On Jun 1, 2020, at 7:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>> Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit >>> breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. >>> >>> As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker they >>> are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks and >>> then trip again. >>> >>> I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole system >>> apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel that I >>> need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive proposition. I >>> really don't know what else to do at this point. >>> >>> Jason >>> >>> >>> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we will >>>> see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I have >>>> two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined breaker. >>>> I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping >>>> simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >>>> >>>> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have never >>>> seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen many >>>> combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would be >>>> replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: >>>> >>>>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max >>>>> string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string’s >>>>> associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped again. >>>>> We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the breaker >>>>> was less than perfect from the start as we’ve add equally nice days since. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 watts >>>>> but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra careful >>>>> going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published… >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> My story. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Scot >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>>>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and >>>>> Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters >>>>> each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers >>>>> and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been >>>>> tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 >>>>> months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >>>>> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, >>>>> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different >>>>> branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We >>>>> checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely >>>>> that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched >>>>> out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers >>>>> crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another >>>>> diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One >>>>> thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible >>>>> disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line >>>>> fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if >>>>> there is in fact a fault. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase >>>>> systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned >>>>> out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on >>>>> different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault >>>>> which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out >>>>> of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This >>>>> case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> >>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 13:03:14 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 10:03:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d62f78$5de7c660$19b75320$@solarcentex.com> <7DD30487-5AD9-42B0-B044-B8515D8007F9@gmail.com> Message-ID: You can tighten up the graph to minutes, even seconds if you set it up to do so Jerry On Mon, Jun 1, 2020, 10:01 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I didn't think an eGauge would provide that granular of detail if there is > a very brief intermittent issue. If I'm wrong about that it might be worth > a try. > > What I really want to do is install a separate breaker in the main panel > for the Envoy so it doesn't lose power when the IQ Combiner main breaker > trips. I wonder if that would provide me any insight into what's happening > immediately after the PV branch circuit and feeder circuit trip. > > > > > On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 12:48 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Jason, Wrenches >> Can you install a data logger, say an eguage so you can see spikes or a >> frequency shift, surge, most anything. >> Install two non connected breakers to isolate the line, just for testing >> purposes and see if it's only one that pops. >> Jerry >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020, 9:11 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> I considered that, but it's tripping at night, so it's not a power >>> output issue. It does have #6 wire, so this could be done, but I don't >>> think it's related. It's a genuine CH240 breaker. We even replaced it once >>> before. >>> >>> At this point, I must have a fault or faults on the roof. Maybe a rodent >>> chewed through some wires. I'm going to wait for another fault and then go >>> pull the modules to check it out. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 11:00 AM jay wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Jason, >>>> >>>> My curiosity is about both breakers tripping. >>>> I would suggest using a larger output breaker, I believe its a 40, put >>>> in a 50 as a test. I would assume the wire size will still be protected by >>>> the 50. >>>> >>>> And I would also ask if the breakers are actual CH or clones? >>>> >>>> jay >>>> >>>> peltz power >>>> >>>> On Jun 1, 2020, at 7:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski < >>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit >>>> breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. >>>> >>>> As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker >>>> they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks >>>> and then trip again. >>>> >>>> I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole system >>>> apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel that I >>>> need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive proposition. I >>>> really don't know what else to do at this point. >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we will >>>>> see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I have >>>>> two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined breaker. >>>>> I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping >>>>> simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >>>>> >>>>> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have >>>>> never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen >>>>> many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would >>>>> be replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max >>>>>> string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string’s >>>>>> associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped >>>>>> again. We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the >>>>>> breaker was less than perfect from the start as we’ve add equally nice days >>>>>> since. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 >>>>>> watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra >>>>>> careful going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published… >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> My story. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Scot >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>>>>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>>>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and >>>>>> Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters >>>>>> each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers >>>>>> and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been >>>>>> tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 >>>>>> months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >>>>>> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, >>>>>> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different >>>>>> branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We >>>>>> checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely >>>>>> that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched >>>>>> out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers >>>>>> crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another >>>>>> diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One >>>>>> thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible >>>>>> disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line >>>>>> fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if >>>>>> there is in fact a fault. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase >>>>>> systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned >>>>>> out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on >>>>>> different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault >>>>>> which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out >>>>>> of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This >>>>>> case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> >>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Jun 2 07:48:43 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2020 07:48:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d62f78$5de7c660$19b75320$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <2773ecc0dbdb2a70c1e4954667e37167@redwoodalliance.org> If it trips at night, we know it is not the output from the inverters causing the tripping. The current must be coming from the grid. --- On 2020-06-01 12:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > It's not weather. It's at all times of the day and night, and I confirmed that there is no correlation to rain or high winds. That was my first suspicion. > > On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:27 AM Ray wrote: > > Is it at all weather related? Rain, or high humidity? High temperatures? Do you have any indication what time of day it trips off at? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. > > As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks and then trip again. > > I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole system apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel that I need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive proposition. I really don't know what else to do at this point. > > Jason > > On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we will see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I have two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined breaker. I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping simultaneously with the combined output breaker. > > Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would be replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. > > On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: > > Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string's associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. > > We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped again. We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the breaker was less than perfect from the start as we've add equally nice days since. > > This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra careful going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published... > > My story. > > Scot > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski > Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng > > I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. > > What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. > > Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. > > I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if there is in fact a fault. > > I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [1] > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [2] > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [3] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [4] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [8] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [14] Links: ------ [1] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/fdc3b2ff41fb06d9fc639def42a495f3c136f3db?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=098ec45eb33f9b00 [2] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/6bc50363ca2add2d415fb87b3cd23366d9e7d039?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&userId=1613865&signature=a337cd5107c087d0 [3] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/75ef476cb6bde5c4268917fd9cc2e6db3770fcae?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=56066347dd7e5127 [4] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/2665831d506b33b1248b1ac93f51a36e161ebdda?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=e07a34933e58e994 [5] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/66018640dfb9cd7bbdd7ee9d01d95dc0d33549ef?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=0597a67facffbf38 [6] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/36249f76ae59219ded6c24b42c26030cc7f79f76?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&userId=1613865&signature=be80d3682a1c98bb [7] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/1a533dda41f4c49b5e99a6ee9e91e575fa518886?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=f94a28b8d3a69cab [8] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/21bf07b6c4bd0b07c7cd1accb625bb1970481392?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=7c9caaa93a1a66e1 [9] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/5468f7a737fd7e45c58f1705a0a1ed0ccd347595?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=83b4369d9d971356 [10] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/4c3b02bf6234d19fd2ca8148a484b40d8f963690?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&userId=1613865&signature=87433120c7b8d362 [11] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/a6ec6f78624a6a5fadbfb0018bce4b8c17cb66a2?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=569ecbab7a50fc52 [12] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/23e853250b78cd0ba3ee23f17fe87cc1c5adb638?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=4ccb869a2bf020e0 [13] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jun 3 10:58:38 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 10:58:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: <2773ecc0dbdb2a70c1e4954667e37167@redwoodalliance.org> References: <014a01d62f78$5de7c660$19b75320$@solarcentex.com> <2773ecc0dbdb2a70c1e4954667e37167@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: I wonder about that. Of course, it could be the "inverter output circuit" having a fault in the wiring still (an intermittent issue somewhere within the IQ cable or home run wiring). But internal to the microinverter, is it possible that a fault could still occur at night? I had a suggestion from another wrench that there are film capacitors on the AC output side, but are these isolated when there is no DC input? It seems unlikely that this would be an issue, but I have seen microinverters reporting a couple of watts at night (in Enlighten). I'm not sure how real that is. The overriding question I have is what kind of fault would cause BOTH a branch circuit and the main solar breaker to trip simultaneously? That seems odd to me. If any normal load branch circuit has a fault, you don't often see premises main breakers tripping, or even feeder circuit breakers. I got to thinking that maybe there is some kind of issue between the BR220 and CH240 breakers not playing nicely together. But I would think this would be a well-known issue because I'm sure there are tons of CH feeder breakers in the wild with BR branch circuits downstream. On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 9:25 AM wrote: > If it trips at night, we know it is not the output from the inverters > causing the tripping. The current must be coming from the grid. > --- > > > > On 2020-06-01 12:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > > It's not weather. It's at all times of the day and night, and I confirmed > that there is no correlation to rain or high winds. That was my first > suspicion. > > > On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:27 AM Ray wrote: > > Is it at all weather related? Rain, or high humidity? High > temperatures? Do you have any indication what time of day it trips off at? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit > breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. > > As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker they > are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks and > then trip again. > > I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole system > apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel that I > need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive proposition. I > really don't know what else to do at this point. > > Jason > > > On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we will > see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I have > two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined breaker. > I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping > simultaneously with the combined output breaker. > > Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have never > seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen many > combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would be > replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. > > > > > > On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: > > Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max > string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string's > associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. > > > > We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped again. We > replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the breaker was > less than perfect from the start as we've add equally nice days since. > > > > This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 watts but > in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra careful going > forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published... > > > > My story. > > > > Scot > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng > > > > I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and Enphase > IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters each > coming into an Enphase AC combiner. > > > > What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and > the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been > tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 > months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept > investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, > etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. > > > > Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different > branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We > checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely > that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched > out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. > > > > I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers > crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another > diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One > thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible > disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line > fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if > there is in fact a fault. > > > > I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase systems > in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned out to be > branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on different > breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault which > eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out of > it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This case > seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 11:27:37 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 08:27:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d62f78$5de7c660$19b75320$@solarcentex.com> <2773ecc0dbdb2a70c1e4954667e37167@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Wrenches Looking g at the bigger breaker tripping at the same time is very likely do to response time of the breaker nothing more. As l suggested in a previous message. Use a non bridged breaker to see if it is one or both legs that trip. Also an eguage will help to see what if anything leads up to the failure and when. Jerry Jerry On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 7:58 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I wonder about that. Of course, it could be the "inverter output circuit" > having a fault in the wiring still (an intermittent issue somewhere within > the IQ cable or home run wiring). But internal to the microinverter, is it > possible that a fault could still occur at night? I had a suggestion from > another wrench that there are film capacitors on the AC output side, but > are these isolated when there is no DC input? It seems unlikely that this > would be an issue, but I have seen microinverters reporting a couple of > watts at night (in Enlighten). I'm not sure how real that is. > > The overriding question I have is what kind of fault would cause BOTH a > branch circuit and the main solar breaker to trip simultaneously? That > seems odd to me. If any normal load branch circuit has a fault, you don't > often see premises main breakers tripping, or even feeder circuit breakers. > > I got to thinking that maybe there is some kind of issue between the BR220 > and CH240 breakers not playing nicely together. But I would think this > would be a well-known issue because I'm sure there are tons of CH feeder > breakers in the wild with BR branch circuits downstream. > > > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 9:25 AM > wrote: > >> If it trips at night, we know it is not the output from the inverters >> causing the tripping. The current must be coming from the grid. >> --- >> >> >> >> On 2020-06-01 12:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> >> >> It's not weather. It's at all times of the day and night, and I confirmed >> that there is no correlation to rain or high winds. That was my first >> suspicion. >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:27 AM Ray wrote: >> >> Is it at all weather related? Rain, or high humidity? High >> temperatures? Do you have any indication what time of day it trips off at? >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> >> Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit >> breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. >> >> As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker they >> are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks and >> then trip again. >> >> I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole system >> apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel that I >> need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive proposition. I >> really don't know what else to do at this point. >> >> Jason >> >> >> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we will >> see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I have >> two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined breaker. >> I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping >> simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >> >> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have never >> seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen many >> combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would be >> replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: >> >> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max >> string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string's >> associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >> >> >> >> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped again. We >> replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the breaker was >> less than perfect from the start as we've add equally nice days since. >> >> >> >> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 watts >> but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra careful >> going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published... >> >> >> >> My story. >> >> >> >> Scot >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >> >> >> >> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and >> Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters >> each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >> >> >> >> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and >> the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been >> tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 >> months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, >> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >> >> >> >> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different >> branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We >> checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely >> that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched >> out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. >> >> >> >> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers >> crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another >> diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One >> thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible >> disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line >> fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if >> there is in fact a fault. >> >> >> >> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase systems >> in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned out to be >> branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on different >> breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault which >> eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out of >> it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This case >> seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 11:48:57 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 08:48:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A question that keeps nagging me is why do these breakers trip and not the breaker in the main panel? Presuming there is a 40 amp in the main I would have thought that given all the times the breakers have tripped at some point that one would have tripped and I can’t understand why not? Jay > On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > >  > Wrenches > Looking g at the bigger breaker tripping at the same time is very likely do to response time of the breaker nothing more. As l suggested in a previous message. Use a non bridged breaker to see if it is one or both legs that trip. Also an eguage will help to see what if anything leads up to the failure and when. > Jerry > Jerry > >> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 7:58 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> I wonder about that. Of course, it could be the "inverter output circuit" having a fault in the wiring still (an intermittent issue somewhere within the IQ cable or home run wiring). But internal to the microinverter, is it possible that a fault could still occur at night? I had a suggestion from another wrench that there are film capacitors on the AC output side, but are these isolated when there is no DC input? It seems unlikely that this would be an issue, but I have seen microinverters reporting a couple of watts at night (in Enlighten). I'm not sure how real that is. >> >> The overriding question I have is what kind of fault would cause BOTH a branch circuit and the main solar breaker to trip simultaneously? That seems odd to me. If any normal load branch circuit has a fault, you don't often see premises main breakers tripping, or even feeder circuit breakers. >> >> I got to thinking that maybe there is some kind of issue between the BR220 and CH240 breakers not playing nicely together. But I would think this would be a well-known issue because I'm sure there are tons of CH feeder breakers in the wild with BR branch circuits downstream. >> >> >> >>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 9:25 AM wrote: >>> If it trips at night, we know it is not the output from the inverters causing the tripping. The current must be coming from the grid. >>> >>> --- >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 2020-06-01 12:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> It's not weather. It's at all times of the day and night, and I confirmed that there is no correlation to rain or high winds. That was my first suspicion. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:27 AM Ray wrote: >>>> Is it at all weather related? Rain, or high humidity? High temperatures? Do you have any indication what time of day it trips off at? >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>> On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>> Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. >>>>> >>>>> As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks and then trip again. >>>>> >>>>> I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole system apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel that I need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive proposition. I really don't know what else to do at this point. >>>>> >>>>> Jason >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we will see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I have two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined breaker. I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >>>>> >>>>> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would be replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: >>>>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string's associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped again. We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the breaker was less than perfect from the start as we've add equally nice days since. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra careful going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> My story. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Scot >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if there is in fact a fault. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> >>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jun 3 14:05:05 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 14:05:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The breaker in the main panel IS tripping simultaneously with one of the branch circuit breakers each time. On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 12:43 PM Jay wrote: > A question that keeps nagging me is why do these breakers trip and not the > breaker in the main panel? > Presuming there is a 40 amp in the main > > I would have thought that given all the times the breakers have tripped at > some point that one would have tripped and I can’t understand why not? > > Jay > > On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > >  > Wrenches > Looking g at the bigger breaker tripping at the same time is very likely > do to response time of the breaker nothing more. As l suggested in a > previous message. Use a non bridged breaker to see if it is one or both > legs that trip. Also an eguage will help to see what if anything leads up > to the failure and when. > Jerry > Jerry > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 7:58 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I wonder about that. Of course, it could be the "inverter output circuit" >> having a fault in the wiring still (an intermittent issue somewhere within >> the IQ cable or home run wiring). But internal to the microinverter, is it >> possible that a fault could still occur at night? I had a suggestion from >> another wrench that there are film capacitors on the AC output side, but >> are these isolated when there is no DC input? It seems unlikely that this >> would be an issue, but I have seen microinverters reporting a couple of >> watts at night (in Enlighten). I'm not sure how real that is. >> >> The overriding question I have is what kind of fault would cause BOTH a >> branch circuit and the main solar breaker to trip simultaneously? That >> seems odd to me. If any normal load branch circuit has a fault, you don't >> often see premises main breakers tripping, or even feeder circuit breakers. >> >> I got to thinking that maybe there is some kind of issue between the >> BR220 and CH240 breakers not playing nicely together. But I would think >> this would be a well-known issue because I'm sure there are tons of CH >> feeder breakers in the wild with BR branch circuits downstream. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 9:25 AM >> wrote: >> >>> If it trips at night, we know it is not the output from the inverters >>> causing the tripping. The current must be coming from the grid. >>> --- >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2020-06-01 12:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> >>> >>> It's not weather. It's at all times of the day and night, and I >>> confirmed that there is no correlation to rain or high winds. That was my >>> first suspicion. >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:27 AM Ray wrote: >>> >>> Is it at all weather related? Rain, or high humidity? High >>> temperatures? Do you have any indication what time of day it trips off at? >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> >>> Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit >>> breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. >>> >>> As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker they >>> are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks and >>> then trip again. >>> >>> I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole system >>> apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel that I >>> need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive proposition. I >>> really don't know what else to do at this point. >>> >>> Jason >>> >>> >>> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we will >>> see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I have >>> two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined breaker. >>> I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping >>> simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >>> >>> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have never >>> seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen many >>> combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would be >>> replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: >>> >>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max >>> string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string's >>> associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>> >>> >>> >>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped again. >>> We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the breaker >>> was less than perfect from the start as we've add equally nice days since. >>> >>> >>> >>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 watts >>> but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra careful >>> going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published... >>> >>> >>> >>> My story. >>> >>> >>> >>> Scot >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and >>> Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters >>> each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>> >>> >>> >>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and >>> the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been >>> tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 >>> months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >>> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, >>> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>> >>> >>> >>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different >>> branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We >>> checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely >>> that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched >>> out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers >>> crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another >>> diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One >>> thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible >>> disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line >>> fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if >>> there is in fact a fault. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase >>> systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned >>> out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on >>> different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault >>> which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out >>> of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This >>> case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From integrityenergy101 at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 14:30:39 2020 From: integrityenergy101 at gmail.com (Amos Post) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 14:30:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was just at a site last week where the Enphase branch circuit breaker, outside utility disconnect breaker, and feed breaker in the main panel all tripped simultaneously, and it happened about 1 hour before I showed up onsite. The customer said it had happened 1 other time last fall but that time it was just the 1 branch circuit in the Enphase combiner panel. Interestingly the customer mentioned that he had just washed off the panels, also about 1 hour before I got there. I went on the roof and found that the installing contractor had not put on the Enphase termination caps. 1 string was wire-nutted with regular wire nuts and sitting on the roof, and the roof was damp right there. This was a fairly flat roof. The other micro trunk cable was just cut with no protection at all, tied to the rail… Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook > On Jun 3, 2020, at 2:05 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > The breaker in the main panel IS tripping simultaneously with one of the branch circuit breakers each time. > > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 12:43 PM Jay > wrote: > A question that keeps nagging me is why do these breakers trip and not the breaker in the main panel? > Presuming there is a 40 amp in the main > > I would have thought that given all the times the breakers have tripped at some point that one would have tripped and I can’t understand why not? > > Jay > >> On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: >> >>  >> Wrenches >> Looking g at the bigger breaker tripping at the same time is very likely do to response time of the breaker nothing more. As l suggested in a previous message. Use a non bridged breaker to see if it is one or both legs that trip. Also an eguage will help to see what if anything leads up to the failure and when. >> Jerry >> Jerry >> >> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 7:58 AM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: >> I wonder about that. Of course, it could be the "inverter output circuit" having a fault in the wiring still (an intermittent issue somewhere within the IQ cable or home run wiring). But internal to the microinverter, is it possible that a fault could still occur at night? I had a suggestion from another wrench that there are film capacitors on the AC output side, but are these isolated when there is no DC input? It seems unlikely that this would be an issue, but I have seen microinverters reporting a couple of watts at night (in Enlighten). I'm not sure how real that is. >> >> The overriding question I have is what kind of fault would cause BOTH a branch circuit and the main solar breaker to trip simultaneously? That seems odd to me. If any normal load branch circuit has a fault, you don't often see premises main breakers tripping, or even feeder circuit breakers. >> >> I got to thinking that maybe there is some kind of issue between the BR220 and CH240 breakers not playing nicely together. But I would think this would be a well-known issue because I'm sure there are tons of CH feeder breakers in the wild with BR branch circuits downstream. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 9:25 AM > wrote: >> If it trips at night, we know it is not the output from the inverters causing the tripping. The current must be coming from the grid. >> >> --- >> >> >> >> On 2020-06-01 12:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> >>> >>> It's not weather. It's at all times of the day and night, and I confirmed that there is no correlation to rain or high winds. That was my first suspicion. >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:27 AM Ray > wrote: >>> Is it at all weather related? Rain, or high humidity? High temperatures? Do you have any indication what time of day it trips off at? >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>> Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. >>>> >>>> As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks and then trip again. >>>> >>>> I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole system apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel that I need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive proposition. I really don't know what else to do at this point. >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: >>>> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we will see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I have two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined breaker. I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >>>> >>>> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would be replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM > wrote: >>>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string's associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>>> >>>> >>>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped again. We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the breaker was less than perfect from the start as we've add equally nice days since. >>>> >>>> >>>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra careful going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published... >>>> >>>> >>>> My story. >>>> >>>> >>>> Scot >>>> >>>> >>>> From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>>> To: RE-wrenches > >>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>>> >>>> >>>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>>> >>>> >>>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if there is in fact a fault. >>>> >>>> >>>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 14:41:41 2020 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 13:41:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In my experiance if the combiner is in the sun breakers will be hot breakers are a thermal device and should be kept at room temperature. Try substituting the HCAC type breaker for the stanard breaker On Thu, May 21, 2020, 8:57 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and Enphase > IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters each > coming into an Enphase AC combiner. > > What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and > the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been > tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 > months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept > investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, > etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. > > Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different > branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We > checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely > that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched > out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. > > I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers > crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another > diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One > thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible > disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line > fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if > there is in fact a fault. > > I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase systems > in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned out to be > branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on different > breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault which > eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out of > it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This case > seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jun 3 15:07:24 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 15:07:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Undoubtedly, the termination caps are the second thing we check after the rooftop junction box(es). These are prone to installation errors, even when the right parts are used. And given the cost, I've thought very long and hard about abandoning them altogether and terminating strings in small j-boxes with watertight fittings. But in this case, there was no evidence of improper installation (we replaced them) and it was not correlated to rain events. We are well equipped with bare Q-cable and field wireables that we could use for troubleshooting to bypass certain sections, but the intermittent nature of the problem and unpredictable timeframe between faults is very frustrating. While this is a rare occurrence, it is definitely a "con" to consider when comparing string vs. microinverters that I had not strongly considered in the past. I'm intent on getting to the bottom of this in order to learn what to look for in the future and how to approach diagnoses of Enphase branch circuit faults. Jason On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 2:31 PM Amos Post wrote: > I was just at a site last week where the Enphase branch circuit breaker, > outside utility disconnect breaker, and feed breaker in the main panel all > tripped simultaneously, and it happened about 1 hour before I showed up > onsite. The customer said it had happened 1 other time last fall but that > time it was just the 1 branch circuit in the Enphase combiner panel. > Interestingly the customer mentioned that he had just washed off the > panels, also about 1 hour before I got there. I went on the roof and found > that the installing contractor had not put on the Enphase termination caps. > 1 string was wire-nutted with regular wire nuts and sitting on the roof, > and the roof was damp right there. This was a fairly flat roof. The other > micro trunk cable was just cut with no protection at all, tied to the rail… > > > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > > Facebook > > > On Jun 3, 2020, at 2:05 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > The breaker in the main panel IS tripping simultaneously with one of the > branch circuit breakers each time. > > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 12:43 PM Jay wrote: > >> A question that keeps nagging me is why do these breakers trip and not >> the breaker in the main panel? >> Presuming there is a 40 amp in the main >> >> I would have thought that given all the times the breakers have tripped >> at some point that one would have tripped and I can’t understand why not? >> >> Jay >> >> On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >>  >> Wrenches >> Looking g at the bigger breaker tripping at the same time is very likely >> do to response time of the breaker nothing more. As l suggested in a >> previous message. Use a non bridged breaker to see if it is one or both >> legs that trip. Also an eguage will help to see what if anything leads up >> to the failure and when. >> Jerry >> Jerry >> >> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 7:58 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> I wonder about that. Of course, it could be the "inverter output >>> circuit" having a fault in the wiring still (an intermittent issue >>> somewhere within the IQ cable or home run wiring). But internal to the >>> microinverter, is it possible that a fault could still occur at night? I >>> had a suggestion from another wrench that there are film capacitors on the >>> AC output side, but are these isolated when there is no DC input? It seems >>> unlikely that this would be an issue, but I have seen microinverters >>> reporting a couple of watts at night (in Enlighten). I'm not sure how real >>> that is. >>> >>> The overriding question I have is what kind of fault would cause BOTH a >>> branch circuit and the main solar breaker to trip simultaneously? That >>> seems odd to me. If any normal load branch circuit has a fault, you don't >>> often see premises main breakers tripping, or even feeder circuit breakers. >>> >>> I got to thinking that maybe there is some kind of issue between the >>> BR220 and CH240 breakers not playing nicely together. But I would think >>> this would be a well-known issue because I'm sure there are tons of CH >>> feeder breakers in the wild with BR branch circuits downstream. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 9:25 AM >>> wrote: >>> >>>> If it trips at night, we know it is not the output from the inverters >>>> causing the tripping. The current must be coming from the grid. >>>> --- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2020-06-01 12:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> It's not weather. It's at all times of the day and night, and I >>>> confirmed that there is no correlation to rain or high winds. That was my >>>> first suspicion. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:27 AM Ray wrote: >>>> >>>> Is it at all weather related? Rain, or high humidity? High >>>> temperatures? Do you have any indication what time of day it trips off at? >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>> >>>> On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>> >>>> Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit >>>> breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. >>>> >>>> As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker >>>> they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks >>>> and then trip again. >>>> >>>> I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole system >>>> apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel that I >>>> need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive proposition. I >>>> really don't know what else to do at this point. >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we will >>>> see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I have >>>> two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined breaker. >>>> I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping >>>> simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >>>> >>>> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have never >>>> seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen many >>>> combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would be >>>> replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: >>>> >>>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max >>>> string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string's >>>> associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>>> >>>> >>>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped again. >>>> We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the breaker >>>> was less than perfect from the start as we've add equally nice days since. >>>> >>>> >>>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 watts >>>> but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra careful >>>> going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published... >>>> >>>> >>>> My story. >>>> >>>> >>>> Scot >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and >>>> Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters >>>> each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>>> >>>> >>>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and >>>> the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been >>>> tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 >>>> months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >>>> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, >>>> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>>> >>>> >>>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different >>>> branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We >>>> checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely >>>> that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched >>>> out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers >>>> crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another >>>> diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One >>>> thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible >>>> disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line >>>> fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if >>>> there is in fact a fault. >>>> >>>> >>>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase >>>> systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned >>>> out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on >>>> different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault >>>> which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out >>>> of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This >>>> case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> 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URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri Jun 5 12:46:57 2020 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 09:46:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC run In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <553606a2-fcdd-7401-d97c-0a8399e8ae36@psln.com> Hey Folks,             I need some clarification, I'm getting conflicting views.  When running DC in metal conduit from the roof array to the exterior wall mounted string Inverter and the attic is the way to go (for various reasons, usually snow), how far below the roof does that conduit have to be?  Secured to the bottom of a rafter or top chord OK? Distance from???restrictions? TIA, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Jun 5 14:17:14 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 14:17:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC run In-Reply-To: <553606a2-fcdd-7401-d97c-0a8399e8ae36@psln.com> References: <553606a2-fcdd-7401-d97c-0a8399e8ae36@psln.com> Message-ID: 300.4(E) *Jason Szumlanski* Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group (239) 491-8010 (239) 410-4985 www.FloridaSolarDesignGroup.com [image: Facebook] [image: Twitter] [image: Youtube] On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 12:46 PM frenergy wrote: > Hey Folks, > > I need some clarification, I'm getting conflicting views. > When running DC in metal conduit from the roof array to the exterior > wall mounted string Inverter and the attic is the way to go (for various > reasons, usually snow), how far below the roof does that conduit have to > be? Secured to the bottom of a rafter or top chord OK? Distance > from???restrictions? > > TIA, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Jun 5 14:19:12 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 14:19:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC run In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, I hit send too soon. 1-1/2" from bottom of roof decking. See NEC 300.4(E) Along the bottom of the top chords is fine, even for cables (i.e. NM cable or other cable carrying AC not in raceway). On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 2:17 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > 300.4(E) > > > *Jason Szumlanski* > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > (239) 491-8010 (239) 410-4985 > www.FloridaSolarDesignGroup.com > > [image: Facebook] > [image: > Twitter] > [image: > Youtube] > > > > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 12:46 PM frenergy wrote: > >> Hey Folks, >> >> I need some clarification, I'm getting conflicting views. >> When running DC in metal conduit from the roof array to the exterior >> wall mounted string Inverter and the attic is the way to go (for various >> reasons, usually snow), how far below the roof does that conduit have to >> be? Secured to the bottom of a rafter or top chord OK? Distance >> from???restrictions? >> >> TIA, >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> >> >> -- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 14:31:42 2020 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 12:31:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3s firmware upgrade issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Annnnnd....the new Mate 3s they sent has the same issue, even after I reverted to the old firmware version. Thought it was very odd that gateway connectivity was OK before the firmware update and failed immediately afterwards. Would still appreciate any feedback if others have experienced this problem. DAN On Fri, May 8, 2020, 10:58 Dan Fink wrote: > Huh, Outback just contacted me and says they will send a replacement unit. > Whatever works! > Dan Fink > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 17:07:44 2020 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 17:07:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW4024 Message-ID: <32F81A3F-D469-45CE-AEEA-7BC2698CF42F@gmail.com> Has anybody ever tried to charge a Chevy bolt with an SW 4024 ? I don’t know if it would be happy with the way form or not and I’m hoping somebody has toyed with it ! Thanks Bob Ellison From ray at solarray.com Fri Jun 5 18:57:30 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 18:57:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW4024 In-Reply-To: <32F81A3F-D469-45CE-AEEA-7BC2698CF42F@gmail.com> References: <32F81A3F-D469-45CE-AEEA-7BC2698CF42F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00c2725e-8c43-791b-274c-4084303eaa80@solarray.com> I don't know about a Bolt, but we've successfully charged a customer's Chevy Volt from an SW inverter for several years. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/5/20 5:07 PM, RE Ellison wrote: > Has anybody ever tried to charge a Chevy bolt with an SW 4024 ? > > I don’t know if it would be happy with the way form or not and I’m hoping somebody has toyed with it ! > > Thanks > Bob Ellison > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 18:48:11 2020 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 16:48:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC run In-Reply-To: <553606a2-fcdd-7401-d97c-0a8399e8ae36@psln.com> References: <553606a2-fcdd-7401-d97c-0a8399e8ae36@psln.com> Message-ID: Bill; If it's the IFC (International Fire Code) you need to comply with, the reference is 605.11.2 in 2012 and 2015 IFC -- Location of DC Conductors, which states they should be located at least 10 inches below the roof decking, and as close as possible to supporting members (firefighters won't cut through supporting members). If your AHJ is using IFC 2018, Location of DC Conductors was not included in the new 1204 Energy Systems chapter, as the system should have NEC 2020 690.12 Rapid Shutdown, which makes location of DC conductors moot, as they shouldn't be energized anyway after actuating RSS. In cases like where there is no RSS (for example the 690.12 exemption for non-habitable structures intended only to house PV BOS) the AHJ could require IFC 605.11.2 compliance. Always check with your AHJ(s) as Fire Codes are frequently amended/excepted by local authorities.....though at least these sometimes make it into the next IFC cycle (for example the Boulder CO and CA and OR rooftop setback exceptions are now in IFC2018). Dan Fink Buckville Energy Consulting On Fri, Jun 5, 2020, 10:46 frenergy wrote: > Hey Folks, > > I need some clarification, I'm getting conflicting views. > When running DC in metal conduit from the roof array to the exterior > wall mounted string Inverter and the attic is the way to go (for various > reasons, usually snow), how far below the roof does that conduit have to > be? Secured to the bottom of a rafter or top chord OK? Distance > from???restrictions? > > TIA, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri Jun 5 20:03:53 2020 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 17:03:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ADV: Re: SW4024 In-Reply-To: <00c2725e-8c43-791b-274c-4084303eaa80@solarray.com> References: <32F81A3F-D469-45CE-AEEA-7BC2698CF42F@gmail.com> <00c2725e-8c43-791b-274c-4084303eaa80@solarray.com> Message-ID: <16a70ab3-a1cf-22c5-4398-d57abb5b601c@psln.com> We've charged both a 2012 RAV4EV (many times) and a 2018 Tesla Model 3 (couple dozen times) on OB VFX3524s.  I wouldn't think the sign wave was much cleaner than the older SWs?, if that was what you were referring to. Bill On 6/5/2020 3:57 PM, Ray wrote: > I don't know about a Bolt, but we've successfully charged a customer's > Chevy Volt from an SW inverter for several years. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 6/5/20 5:07 PM, RE Ellison wrote: >> Has anybody ever tried to charge a Chevy bolt with an SW 4024 ? >> >> I don’t know if it would be happy with the way form or not and I’m >> hoping somebody has toyed with it ! >> >> Thanks >> Bob Ellison >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From larry at starlightsolar.com Sat Jun 6 10:34:59 2020 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 07:34:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW4024 In-Reply-To: <32F81A3F-D469-45CE-AEEA-7BC2698CF42F@gmail.com> References: <32F81A3F-D469-45CE-AEEA-7BC2698CF42F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <36375578-7AA7-4A14-A7FB-69FFB45A852E@starlightsolar.com> Hello Bob, Voltage and frequency will have a greater affect on whether the converter powers on. Waveform distortion under load may affect the converter but I have seen many types of loads working fine with some nasty looking AC waveforms. Larry Crutcher > On Jun 5, 2020, at 2:08 PM, RE Ellison wrote: > > Has anybody ever tried to charge a Chevy bolt with an SW 4024 ? > > I don’t know if it would be happy with the way form or not and I’m hoping somebody has toyed with it ! > > Thanks > Bob Ellison > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From hiltondier at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 22:01:33 2020 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier III) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 22:01:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging a Bolt with an SW Message-ID: <846fd72e-a6d8-3a42-2ed6-8a21ad429927@gmail.com> The issue with EV chargers is that they create a lot of reactive power. Think of it as "slosh" in the waveform. That means that charging at 2,000 watts sloshes a lot more than 2kW through the cable, plug, outlet, and from the inverter. If you've got a reasonably good sinewave inverter the charger will like it fine. However, the inverter might not like the charger if you cut things too close. Make sure to have a lot of top end left in your inverter. Always use a transformer based inverter. The SW series has a big chunk of metal in it, so that's good. At 120V the Bolt will only draw 1440 watts max. An aftermarket Bolt 240V charger can draw up to 32 amps. That's 7.7 kW, so too big for an SW. Treat it more like 40 amps. The OEM 120/240 EVSE (smart charging cord) that comes with the car can draw 8 or 12 amps at 120V or 12 at 240V. Assume that the 8 amps is really 12 and the 12 is really 15 or a bit more. I have seen 15 amp plugs and outlets with the hot prong melting plastic around it. The plug on the OEM EVSE is 20A rated but make sure your outlet is as well. -- Hilton Dier III Missisquoi River Hydro Renewable Energy Design -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 21:35:30 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 18:35:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback question Message-ID: <33C95A24-61E2-4C24-A57A-D8F2DBABB03A@gmail.com> I’ve got a interesting problem I’ve not seen before. Mate 3 Hub Radian Fm-80 It’s been installed for 5 + years. Recently the caretaker noticed every other day it wasn’t charging. This is confirmed on the CC and logging. It was in float all day. We disconnected it from the hub and it’s charging normally. I’m not aware of any mate 3 settings that would make this happen. Comments? Thx Jay From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Jun 7 11:13:06 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 08:13:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback question In-Reply-To: <33C95A24-61E2-4C24-A57A-D8F2DBABB03A@gmail.com> References: <33C95A24-61E2-4C24-A57A-D8F2DBABB03A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5a98c893c565a5cb24254ea0a18ff411@127.0.0.1> You think it is interesting? I hate problems like this. You are doing the right thing in my opinion. Disconnect the network and try to duplicate. This is a troubleshoot halfsplit to an engineer/technician, or you and me.... The other choice at this point would be a complete DC disconnect for as long as it takes to get the DC system wide to below 2vdc. Your question on programming? Did someone/something put the CC into float only mode? I had a customer who did weird things and I set-up logging on an SD card and it recorded system changes. He paid me a bit of money for me to prove he was the problem. Nice and cool! Gonna play "highway to hell" and wack the weeds. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 6 Jun 2020 18:35:30 -0700, Jay wrote: > I've got a interesting problem I've not seen before. > > Mate 3 > Hub > Radian > Fm-80 > > It's been installed for 5 + years. > > Recently the caretaker noticed every other day it wasn't charging. This is > confirmed on the CC and logging. > It was in float all day. > > We disconnected it from the hub and it's charging normally. > > I'm not aware of any mate 3 settings that would make this happen. > > Comments? > > Thx > > Jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 14:53:01 2020 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 13:53:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging a Bolt with an SW In-Reply-To: <846fd72e-a6d8-3a42-2ed6-8a21ad429927@gmail.com> References: <846fd72e-a6d8-3a42-2ed6-8a21ad429927@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think you said it well, about 5 years ago I tried to charge a car from an off-grid system. I did not record my events but the inverter had twice the power of the level two charger, yet the inverter would get hot and trip out. I was told a ferroresonant transformer may help, and it might be different with different cars. However, I was warned the ferroresonant was to stop input wave problems from arriving at the output not to prevent the output wave problems showing up on the input. The off-grid customer gave up. On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 6:36 AM Hilton Dier III wrote: > The issue with EV chargers is that they create a lot of reactive power. > Think of it as "slosh" in the waveform. That means that charging at 2,000 > watts sloshes a lot more than 2kW through the cable, plug, outlet, and from > the inverter. If you've got a reasonably good sinewave inverter the charger > will like it fine. However, the inverter might not like the charger if you > cut things too close. Make sure to have a lot of top end left in your > inverter. Always use a transformer based inverter. The SW series has a big > chunk of metal in it, so that's good. At 120V the Bolt will only draw 1440 > watts max. > > An aftermarket Bolt 240V charger can draw up to 32 amps. That's 7.7 kW, so > too big for an SW. Treat it more like 40 amps. The OEM 120/240 EVSE (smart > charging cord) that comes with the car can draw 8 or 12 amps at 120V or 12 > at 240V. Assume that the 8 amps is really 12 and the 12 is really 15 or a > bit more. I have seen 15 amp plugs and outlets with the hot prong melting > plastic around it. The plug on the OEM EVSE is 20A rated but make sure your > outlet is as well. > > -- > Hilton Dier III > Missisquoi River Hydro > Renewable Energy Design > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 16:05:36 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 13:05:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging a Bolt with an SW In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I’ve got offgrid 2 clients and they have no issues. They each have a Bolt and can choose the charging rate. They can run it at either power. But only use higher power when they have lots of sun. Older Stacked vfx and Schneider xw, no issues. I would expect the SW to work, however it’s an odd beast as it’s waveform steps change with load. More load, more steps, therefor cleaner so maybe at lower charge rate it’s not clean enough. As to your issue it could be power factor Being really poor. Can you tell us what inverter, yea 5 years ago is a long time. Jay Peltz power. > On Jun 7, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > >  > I think you said it well, about 5 years ago I tried to charge a car from an off-grid system. I did not record my events but the inverter had twice the power of the level two charger, yet the inverter would get hot and trip out. I was told a ferroresonant transformer may help, and it might be different with different cars. However, I was warned the ferroresonant was to stop input wave problems from arriving at the output not to prevent the output wave problems showing up on the input. The off-grid customer gave up. > >> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 6:36 AM Hilton Dier III wrote: >> The issue with EV chargers is that they create a lot of reactive power. Think of it as "slosh" in the waveform. That means that charging at 2,000 watts sloshes a lot more than 2kW through the cable, plug, outlet, and from the inverter. If you've got a reasonably good sinewave inverter the charger will like it fine. However, the inverter might not like the charger if you cut things too close. Make sure to have a lot of top end left in your inverter. Always use a transformer based inverter. The SW series has a big chunk of metal in it, so that's good. At 120V the Bolt will only draw 1440 watts max. >> >> An aftermarket Bolt 240V charger can draw up to 32 amps. That's 7.7 kW, so too big for an SW. Treat it more like 40 amps. The OEM 120/240 EVSE (smart charging cord) that comes with the car can draw 8 or 12 amps at 120V or 12 at 240V. Assume that the 8 amps is really 12 and the 12 is really 15 or a bit more. I have seen 15 amp plugs and outlets with the hot prong melting plastic around it. The plug on the OEM EVSE is 20A rated but make sure your outlet is as well. >> >> -- >> Hilton Dier III >> Missisquoi River Hydro >> Renewable Energy Design >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 18:04:15 2020 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 17:04:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging a Bolt with an SW In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was trying to charge a Nissan Leaf with a ? Iam not sure but two VFX i think old age.. i mostly rember having the problem. I think the car harger had a max of 2kw On Sun, Jun 7, 2020, 3:41 PM Jay wrote: > I’ve got offgrid 2 clients and they have no issues. > > They each have a Bolt and can choose the charging rate. They can run it at > either power. But only use higher power when they have lots of sun. > Older Stacked vfx and Schneider xw, no issues. > > I would expect the SW to work, however it’s an odd beast as it’s waveform > steps change with load. More load, more steps, therefor cleaner so maybe at > lower charge rate it’s not clean enough. > > As to your issue it could be power factor Being really poor. > Can you tell us what inverter, yea 5 years ago is a long time. > > > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > > > On Jun 7, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > >  > I think you said it well, about 5 years ago I tried to charge a car from > an off-grid system. I did not record my events but the inverter had twice > the power of the level two charger, yet the inverter would get hot and trip > out. I was told a ferroresonant transformer may help, and it might be > different with different cars. However, I was warned the ferroresonant was > to stop input wave problems from arriving at the output not to prevent the > output wave problems showing up on the input. The off-grid customer gave > up. > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 6:36 AM Hilton Dier III > wrote: > >> The issue with EV chargers is that they create a lot of reactive power. >> Think of it as "slosh" in the waveform. That means that charging at 2,000 >> watts sloshes a lot more than 2kW through the cable, plug, outlet, and from >> the inverter. If you've got a reasonably good sinewave inverter the charger >> will like it fine. However, the inverter might not like the charger if you >> cut things too close. Make sure to have a lot of top end left in your >> inverter. Always use a transformer based inverter. The SW series has a big >> chunk of metal in it, so that's good. At 120V the Bolt will only draw 1440 >> watts max. >> >> An aftermarket Bolt 240V charger can draw up to 32 amps. That's 7.7 kW, >> so too big for an SW. Treat it more like 40 amps. The OEM 120/240 EVSE >> (smart charging cord) that comes with the car can draw 8 or 12 amps at 120V >> or 12 at 240V. Assume that the 8 amps is really 12 and the 12 is really 15 >> or a bit more. I have seen 15 amp plugs and outlets with the hot prong >> melting plastic around it. The plug on the OEM EVSE is 20A rated but make >> sure your outlet is as well. >> >> -- >> Hilton Dier III >> Missisquoi River Hydro >> Renewable Energy Design >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 18:12:19 2020 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 18:12:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging a Bolt with an SW In-Reply-To: <846fd72e-a6d8-3a42-2ed6-8a21ad429927@gmail.com> References: <846fd72e-a6d8-3a42-2ed6-8a21ad429927@gmail.com> Message-ID: I had a Nissan Leaf and a 240v charger, we had no problem using our Radian to charge it during the day. On Sat, Jun 6, 2020, 22:11 Hilton Dier III wrote: > The issue with EV chargers is that they create a lot of reactive power. > Think of it as "slosh" in the waveform. That means that charging at 2,000 > watts sloshes a lot more than 2kW through the cable, plug, outlet, and from > the inverter. If you've got a reasonably good sinewave inverter the charger > will like it fine. However, the inverter might not like the charger if you > cut things too close. Make sure to have a lot of top end left in your > inverter. Always use a transformer based inverter. The SW series has a big > chunk of metal in it, so that's good. At 120V the Bolt will only draw 1440 > watts max. > > An aftermarket Bolt 240V charger can draw up to 32 amps. That's 7.7 kW, so > too big for an SW. Treat it more like 40 amps. The OEM 120/240 EVSE (smart > charging cord) that comes with the car can draw 8 or 12 amps at 120V or 12 > at 240V. Assume that the 8 amps is really 12 and the 12 is really 15 or a > bit more. I have seen 15 amp plugs and outlets with the hot prong melting > plastic around it. The plug on the OEM EVSE is 20A rated but make sure your > outlet is as well. > > -- > Hilton Dier III > Missisquoi River Hydro > Renewable Energy Design > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkatz at backwoodssolar.com Sun Jun 7 18:12:30 2020 From: dkatz at backwoodssolar.com (David Katz) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 15:12:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging a Bolt with an SW In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The old SW waveform changes with battery voltage. On the 24 volt version there are less steps when the battery is over 28 volts. My washing machine motor does not run when the battery is over 28. I just have to turn on the microwave when I want to do laundry on a sunny day. David On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 1:05 PM Jay wrote: > I’ve got offgrid 2 clients and they have no issues. > > They each have a Bolt and can choose the charging rate. They can run it at > either power. But only use higher power when they have lots of sun. > Older Stacked vfx and Schneider xw, no issues. > > I would expect the SW to work, however it’s an odd beast as it’s waveform > steps change with load. More load, more steps, therefor cleaner so maybe at > lower charge rate it’s not clean enough. > > As to your issue it could be power factor Being really poor. > Can you tell us what inverter, yea 5 years ago is a long time. > > > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > > > On Jun 7, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > >  > I think you said it well, about 5 years ago I tried to charge a car from > an off-grid system. I did not record my events but the inverter had twice > the power of the level two charger, yet the inverter would get hot and trip > out. I was told a ferroresonant transformer may help, and it might be > different with different cars. However, I was warned the ferroresonant was > to stop input wave problems from arriving at the output not to prevent the > output wave problems showing up on the input. The off-grid customer gave > up. > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 6:36 AM Hilton Dier III > wrote: > >> The issue with EV chargers is that they create a lot of reactive power. >> Think of it as "slosh" in the waveform. That means that charging at 2,000 >> watts sloshes a lot more than 2kW through the cable, plug, outlet, and from >> the inverter. If you've got a reasonably good sinewave inverter the charger >> will like it fine. However, the inverter might not like the charger if you >> cut things too close. Make sure to have a lot of top end left in your >> inverter. Always use a transformer based inverter. The SW series has a big >> chunk of metal in it, so that's good. At 120V the Bolt will only draw 1440 >> watts max. >> >> An aftermarket Bolt 240V charger can draw up to 32 amps. That's 7.7 kW, >> so too big for an SW. Treat it more like 40 amps. The OEM 120/240 EVSE >> (smart charging cord) that comes with the car can draw 8 or 12 amps at 120V >> or 12 at 240V. Assume that the 8 amps is really 12 and the 12 is really 15 >> or a bit more. I have seen 15 amp plugs and outlets with the hot prong >> melting plastic around it. The plug on the OEM EVSE is 20A rated but make >> sure your outlet is as well. >> >> -- >> Hilton Dier III >> Missisquoi River Hydro >> Renewable Energy Design >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.siegenthaler at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 11:14:46 2020 From: jon.siegenthaler at gmail.com (Jon Siegenthaler) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 10:14:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Storedge LG Chem Resu Surge Fail Message-ID: Hey Wrenchers, This is an installation with two Solaredge Storedge 7.6 inverters and the LG Chem Resu 10 batteries. When the utility goes down the two inverters for the solar switch over to back up mode and feed two separate dedicated loads panels. One panel works fine and all of the dedicated loads connected to it work as normal. Within the other panel there are just two loads, some lights and some sump pumps that are connected to a controller. Before the pumps will operate the controller that monitors their operation also monitors the utility voltage so that the pumps don't see too high or low of voltage from the utility (or back up power). In normal utility mode the controller works fine. However when the system switches to backup mode the controller trips off. The voltage window for the pump controller is relatively narrow, however I'm not sure if that is the problem. The pump(s) will surge to a maximum of 20A at 240V for about a second and then hold between 7A-14A respectively. Which is within the operating window of the inverter (6600w surge 25A max continuous). I connected the controller load to my Eguage and logged the controllers usage both while connected to the utility and while connected to the battery back up. The data while connected to the utility is pretty typical with no irregularities. However when I switch to the battery side my logging disappears (measuring second by second and the results only show minutes). I believe that this is due to the inverter shutting down momentarily and then the Eguage needs to reboot. In all of the starting and stopping of the inverter I do see that the voltage spikes to L1-149V and L2-150V together with 299V L1&L2. Has anyone else encountered this problem before or something similar that may be able to offer some advice? I had an issue once before and added a 50mf capacitor to the line to smooth out the surge but this was for my home experiment and not a professional installation. Any luck with power line conditioners? Thanks in advance, Jon Siegenthaler -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jun 8 11:35:49 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 08:35:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Storedge LG Chem Resu Surge Fail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ae7a39fe53e756aa60ad7bb537b1f91@127.0.0.1> Hi Jon, I have zero experience with the LG RESU 10H hi voltage battery. I assume resu10H is what you mean and not resu10? That said I did alot of testing with Schneider and LG for their attempt to make a 48V resu10 NMC offgrid system in 2017. Schneider had to derate XW+ to less than it's full output to try and make LG Chem happy. In the end the project ended and not much was said by either party. My input only is that Solaredge is probably trying to protect the battery from the pump surge. There is a heartbeat signal that the BMS needs from inverter to keep the battery on. (major bad design for offgrid, my opinion.) No one does this now as it is all internal to the battery. Even closed loop systems do not use this heavy handed design approach. Much better ways these days to do this reliably. The hi voltage you see, is it possible it is the unloading of the inverter after a surge? I guess it would be hard to reverse the load panels to test? Will think about this later some more. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 10:14:46 -0500, Jon Siegenthaler wrote: Hey Wrenchers, This is an installation with two Solaredge Storedge 7.6 inverters and the LG Chem Resu 10 batteries. When the utility goes down the two inverters for the solar switch over to back up mode and feed two separate dedicated loads panels. One panel works fine and all of the dedicated loads connected to it work as normal. Within the other panel there are just two loads, some lights and some sump pumps that are connected to a controller. Before the pumps will operate the controller that monitors their operation also monitors the utility voltage so that the pumps don't see too high or low of voltage from the utility (or back up power). In normal utility mode the controller works fine. However when the system switches to backup mode the controller trips off. The voltage window for the pump controller is relatively narrow, however I'm not sure if that is the problem. The pump(s) will surge to a maximum of 20A at 240V for about a second and then hold between 7A-14A respectively. Which is within the operating window of the inverter (6600w surge 25A max continuous). I connected the controller load to my Eguage and logged the controllers usage both while connected to the utility and while connected to the battery back up. The data while connected to the utility is pretty typical with no irregularities. However when I switch to the battery side my logging disappears (measuring second by second and the results only show minutes). I believe that this is due to the inverter shutting down momentarily and then the Eguage needs to reboot. In all of the starting and stopping of the inverter I do see that the voltage spikes to L1-149V and L2-150V together with 299V L1"> Has anyone else encountered this problem before or something similar that may be able to offer some advice? I had an issue once before and added a 50mf capacitor to the line to smooth out the surge but this was for my home experiment and not a professional installation. Any luck with power line conditioners? Thanks in advance, Jon Siegenthaler Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 11:55:45 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:55:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Storedge LG Chem Resu Surge Fail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jones Solaredge does not like to surge or ramp up quickly, in conversations with SE the fix might be a variable frequency controller, I do not know how the controller you have will work but historically that the cure. Jerry On Mon, Jun 8, 2020, 8:15 AM Jon Siegenthaler wrote: > Hey Wrenchers, > > This is an installation with two Solaredge Storedge 7.6 inverters and the > LG Chem Resu 10 batteries. When the utility goes down the two inverters for > the solar switch over to back up mode and feed two separate dedicated loads > panels. One panel works fine and all of the dedicated loads connected to it > work as normal. Within the other panel there are just two loads, some > lights and some sump pumps that are connected to a controller. > > Before the pumps will operate the controller that monitors their operation > also monitors the utility voltage so that the pumps don't see too high or > low of voltage from the utility (or back up power). In normal utility mode > the controller works fine. However when the system switches to backup mode > the controller trips off. > > The voltage window for the pump controller is relatively narrow, however > I'm not sure if that is the problem. The pump(s) will surge to a maximum of > 20A at 240V for about a second and then hold between 7A-14A respectively. > Which is within the operating window of the inverter (6600w surge 25A max > continuous). > > I connected the controller load to my Eguage and logged the controllers > usage both while connected to the utility and while connected to the > battery back up. The data while connected to the utility is pretty typical > with no irregularities. However when I switch to the battery side my > logging disappears (measuring second by second and the results only show > minutes). I believe that this is due to the inverter shutting down > momentarily and then the Eguage needs to reboot. In all of the starting and > stopping of the inverter I do see that the voltage spikes to L1-149V and > L2-150V together with 299V L1&L2. > > Has anyone else encountered this problem before or something similar that > may be able to offer some advice? I had an issue once before and added a > 50mf capacitor to the line to smooth out the surge but this was for my home > experiment and not a professional installation. Any luck with power line > conditioners? Thanks in advance, > > Jon Siegenthaler > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Jun 8 13:04:55 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 13:04:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging a Bolt with an SW In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19b11787-ca3c-e54e-978d-5ca5854f5ad7@solarray.com> Also have a customer with a Leaf that can charge from a dual GVFX system.  He uses the 120 vac charger.  Lower charge rates are more efficient both for the car's battery and the solar/ battery system, so I recommend sticking to the 120 vac chargers if possible. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/7/20 6:04 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > I was trying to charge a Nissan Leaf with a ? Iam not sure but two VFX > i think old age.. i mostly rember having the problem.  I think the > car  harger had a max of 2kw > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2020, 3:41 PM Jay > wrote: > > I’ve got offgrid  2 clients and they have no issues. > > They each have a Bolt and can choose the charging rate. They can > run it at either power. But only use higher power when they have > lots of sun. > Older Stacked vfx and Schneider xw, no issues. > > I would expect the SW to work, however it’s an odd beast as it’s > waveform steps change with load. More load, more steps, therefor > cleaner so maybe at lower charge rate it’s not clean enough. > > As to your issue it could be power factor Being really poor. > Can you tell us what inverter, yea 5 years ago is a long time. > > > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > > >> On Jun 7, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Darryl Thayer > > wrote: >> >>  >> I think you said it well, about 5 years ago I tried to charge a >> car from an off-grid system.  I did not record my events but the >> inverter had twice the power of the level two charger, yet the >> inverter would get hot and trip out.  I was told a ferroresonant >> transformer may help, and it might be different with different >> cars.  However, I was warned the ferroresonant was to stop input >> wave problems from arriving at the output not to prevent the >> output wave problems showing up on the input.   The off-grid >> customer gave up. >> >> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 6:36 AM Hilton Dier III >> > wrote: >> >> The issue with EV chargers is that they create a lot of >> reactive power. Think of it as "slosh" in the waveform. That >> means that charging at 2,000 watts sloshes a lot more than >> 2kW through the cable, plug, outlet, and from the inverter. >> If you've got a reasonably good sinewave inverter the charger >> will like it fine. However, the inverter might not like the >> charger if you cut things too close. Make sure to have a lot >> of top end left in your inverter. Always use a transformer >> based inverter. The SW series has a big chunk of metal in it, >> so that's good. At 120V the Bolt will only draw 1440 watts max. >> >> An aftermarket Bolt 240V charger can draw up to 32 amps. >> That's 7.7 kW, so too big for an SW. Treat it more like 40 >> amps. The OEM 120/240 EVSE (smart charging cord) that comes >> with the car can draw 8 or 12 amps at 120V or 12 at 240V. >> Assume that the 8 amps is really 12 and the 12 is really 15 >> or a bit more. I have seen 15 amp plugs and outlets with the >> hot prong melting plastic around it. The plug on the OEM EVSE >> is 20A rated but make sure your outlet is as well. >> >> -- >> Hilton Dier III >> Missisquoi River Hydro >> Renewable Energy Design >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 15:54:42 2020 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 15:54:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging a Bolt with an SW In-Reply-To: <19b11787-ca3c-e54e-978d-5ca5854f5ad7@solarray.com> References: <19b11787-ca3c-e54e-978d-5ca5854f5ad7@solarray.com> Message-ID: >Lower charge rates are more efficient both for the car's battery and the solar/ battery system I don't get that. Our house battery is full at about 11 a.m., so we have about four hours to charge the car. During that time we make about 6KW, so the car uses 5KW of that and charges up. If I went to the 120V charger, I would be charging all day and it still would not be charged. On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 1:05 PM Ray wrote: > Also have a customer with a Leaf that can charge from a dual GVFX system. > He uses the 120 vac charger. Lower charge rates are more efficient both > for the car's battery and the solar/ battery system, so I recommend > sticking to the 120 vac chargers if possible. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 6/7/20 6:04 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > > I was trying to charge a Nissan Leaf with a ? Iam not sure but two VFX i > think old age.. i mostly rember having the problem. I think the car > harger had a max of 2kw > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2020, 3:41 PM Jay wrote: > >> I’ve got offgrid 2 clients and they have no issues. >> >> They each have a Bolt and can choose the charging rate. They can run it >> at either power. But only use higher power when they have lots of sun. >> Older Stacked vfx and Schneider xw, no issues. >> >> I would expect the SW to work, however it’s an odd beast as it’s waveform >> steps change with load. More load, more steps, therefor cleaner so maybe at >> lower charge rate it’s not clean enough. >> >> As to your issue it could be power factor Being really poor. >> Can you tell us what inverter, yea 5 years ago is a long time. >> >> >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jun 7, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Darryl Thayer wrote: >> >>  >> I think you said it well, about 5 years ago I tried to charge a car from >> an off-grid system. I did not record my events but the inverter had twice >> the power of the level two charger, yet the inverter would get hot and trip >> out. I was told a ferroresonant transformer may help, and it might be >> different with different cars. However, I was warned the ferroresonant was >> to stop input wave problems from arriving at the output not to prevent the >> output wave problems showing up on the input. The off-grid customer gave >> up. >> >> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 6:36 AM Hilton Dier III >> wrote: >> >>> The issue with EV chargers is that they create a lot of reactive power. >>> Think of it as "slosh" in the waveform. That means that charging at 2,000 >>> watts sloshes a lot more than 2kW through the cable, plug, outlet, and from >>> the inverter. If you've got a reasonably good sinewave inverter the charger >>> will like it fine. However, the inverter might not like the charger if you >>> cut things too close. Make sure to have a lot of top end left in your >>> inverter. Always use a transformer based inverter. The SW series has a big >>> chunk of metal in it, so that's good. At 120V the Bolt will only draw 1440 >>> watts max. >>> >>> An aftermarket Bolt 240V charger can draw up to 32 amps. That's 7.7 kW, >>> so too big for an SW. Treat it more like 40 amps. The OEM 120/240 EVSE >>> (smart charging cord) that comes with the car can draw 8 or 12 amps at 120V >>> or 12 at 240V. Assume that the 8 amps is really 12 and the 12 is really 15 >>> or a bit more. I have seen 15 amp plugs and outlets with the hot prong >>> melting plastic around it. The plug on the OEM EVSE is 20A rated but make >>> sure your outlet is as well. >>> >>> -- >>> Hilton Dier III >>> Missisquoi River Hydro >>> Renewable Energy Design >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jun 8 16:37:12 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 16:37:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging a Bolt with an SW In-Reply-To: References: <19b11787-ca3c-e54e-978d-5ca5854f5ad7@solarray.com> Message-ID: I think what he means is that the battery lifespan will improve with slower charging. On that note, I have not seen much concrete information on how high charge rates affect all of these newer lithium batteries. They all claim outwardly that their battery can be charged fast, because let's face it... that's what consumers want. But behind the scenes they really want you to charge it slower (and not necessarily to 100%). How fast is too fast is the question I always have. On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 3:54 PM Chris Mason wrote: > >Lower charge rates are more efficient both for the car's battery and the > solar/ battery system > I don't get that. Our house battery is full at about 11 a.m., so we have > about four hours to charge the car. During that time we make about 6KW, so > the car uses 5KW of that and charges up. If I went to the 120V charger, I > would be charging all day and it still would not be charged. > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 1:05 PM Ray wrote: > >> Also have a customer with a Leaf that can charge from a dual GVFX >> system. He uses the 120 vac charger. Lower charge rates are more >> efficient both for the car's battery and the solar/ battery system, so I >> recommend sticking to the 120 vac chargers if possible. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 6/7/20 6:04 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: >> >> I was trying to charge a Nissan Leaf with a ? Iam not sure but two VFX i >> think old age.. i mostly rember having the problem. I think the car >> harger had a max of 2kw >> >> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020, 3:41 PM Jay wrote: >> >>> I’ve got offgrid 2 clients and they have no issues. >>> >>> They each have a Bolt and can choose the charging rate. They can run it >>> at either power. But only use higher power when they have lots of sun. >>> Older Stacked vfx and Schneider xw, no issues. >>> >>> I would expect the SW to work, however it’s an odd beast as it’s >>> waveform steps change with load. More load, more steps, therefor cleaner so >>> maybe at lower charge rate it’s not clean enough. >>> >>> As to your issue it could be power factor Being really poor. >>> Can you tell us what inverter, yea 5 years ago is a long time. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> Peltz power. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 7, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Darryl Thayer >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> I think you said it well, about 5 years ago I tried to charge a car from >>> an off-grid system. I did not record my events but the inverter had twice >>> the power of the level two charger, yet the inverter would get hot and trip >>> out. I was told a ferroresonant transformer may help, and it might be >>> different with different cars. However, I was warned the ferroresonant was >>> to stop input wave problems from arriving at the output not to prevent the >>> output wave problems showing up on the input. The off-grid customer gave >>> up. >>> >>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 6:36 AM Hilton Dier III >>> wrote: >>> >>>> The issue with EV chargers is that they create a lot of reactive power. >>>> Think of it as "slosh" in the waveform. That means that charging at 2,000 >>>> watts sloshes a lot more than 2kW through the cable, plug, outlet, and from >>>> the inverter. If you've got a reasonably good sinewave inverter the charger >>>> will like it fine. However, the inverter might not like the charger if you >>>> cut things too close. Make sure to have a lot of top end left in your >>>> inverter. Always use a transformer based inverter. The SW series has a big >>>> chunk of metal in it, so that's good. At 120V the Bolt will only draw 1440 >>>> watts max. >>>> >>>> An aftermarket Bolt 240V charger can draw up to 32 amps. That's 7.7 kW, >>>> so too big for an SW. Treat it more like 40 amps. The OEM 120/240 EVSE >>>> (smart charging cord) that comes with the car can draw 8 or 12 amps at 120V >>>> or 12 at 240V. Assume that the 8 amps is really 12 and the 12 is really 15 >>>> or a bit more. I have seen 15 amp plugs and outlets with the hot prong >>>> melting plastic around it. The plug on the OEM EVSE is 20A rated but make >>>> sure your outlet is as well. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Hilton Dier III >>>> Missisquoi River Hydro >>>> Renewable Energy Design >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > -- > Chris Mason > Solar systems designer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar > Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 > WhatsApp 264.235.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > www.cometsolar.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jun 8 17:15:36 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 14:15:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging a Bolt with an SW In-Reply-To: References: <19b11787-ca3c-e54e-978d-5ca5854f5ad7@solarray.com> Message-ID: <76ee631207364b3cc962c67528d06609@127.0.0.1> The good LFP batteries all tell you max charge/discharge rate and that in their specifications. Cascading of batteries usually widens these rates. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 16:37:12 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: I think what he means is that the battery lifespan will improve with slower charging. On that note, I have not seen much concrete information on how high charge rates affect all of these newer lithium batteries. They all claim outwardly that their battery can be charged fast, because let's face it... that's what consumers want. But behind the scenes they really want you to charge it slower (and not necessarily to 100%). How fast is too fast is the question I always have. On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 3:54 PM Chris Mason wrote: >Lower charge rates are more efficient both for the car's battery and the solar/ battery system I don't get that. Our house battery is full at about 11 a.m., so we have about four hours to charge the car. During that time we make about 6KW, so the car uses 5KW of that and charges up. If I went to the 120V charger, I would be charging all day and it still would not be charged. On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 1:05 PM Ray wrote: Also have a customer with a Leaf that can charge from a dual GVFX system. He uses the 120 vac charger. Lower charge rates are more efficient both for the car's battery and the solar/ battery system, so I recommend sticking to the 120 vac chargers if possible. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/7/20 6:04 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: I was trying to charge a Nissan Leaf with a ? Iam not sure but two VFX i think old age.. i mostly rember having the problem. I think the car harger had a max of 2kw On Sun, Jun 7, 2020, 3:41 PM Jay wrote: I've got offgrid 2 clients and they have no issues. They each have a Bolt and can choose the charging rate. They can run it at either power. But only use higher power when they have lots of sun. Older Stacked vfx and Schneider xw, no issues. I would expect the SW to work, however it's an odd beast as it's waveform steps change with load. More load, more steps, therefor cleaner so maybe at lower charge rate it's not clean enough. As to your issue it could be power factor Being really poor. Can you tell us what inverter, yea 5 years ago is a long time. Jay Peltz power. On Jun 7, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Darryl Thayer wrote: I think you said it well, about 5 years ago I tried to charge a car from an off-grid system. I did not record my events but the inverter had twice the power of the level two charger, yet the inverter would get hot and trip out. I was told a ferroresonant transformer may help, and it might be different with different cars. However, I was warned the ferroresonant was to stop input wave problems from arriving at the output not to prevent the output wave problems showing up on the input. The off-grid customer gave up. On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 6:36 AM Hilton Dier III wrote: The issue with EV chargers is that they create a lot of reactive power. Think of it as "slosh" in the waveform. That means that charging at 2,000 watts sloshes a lot more than 2kW through the cable, plug, outlet, and from the inverter. If you've got a reasonably good sinewave inverter the charger will like it fine. However, the inverter might not like the charger if you cut things too close. Make sure to have a lot of top end left in your inverter. Always use a transformer based inverter. The SW series has a big chunk of metal in it, so that's good. At 120V the Bolt will only draw 1440 watts max. An aftermarket Bolt 240V charger can draw up to 32 amps. That's 7.7 kW, so too big for an SW. Treat it more like 40 amps. The OEM 120/240 EVSE (smart charging cord) that comes with the car can draw 8 or 12 amps at 120V or 12 at 240V. Assume that the 8 amps is really 12 and the 12 is really 15 or a bit more. I have seen 15 amp plugs and outlets with the hot prong melting plastic around it. The plug on the OEM EVSE is 20A rated but make sure your outlet is as well. -- Hilton Dier III Missisquoi River Hydro Renewable Energy Design _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [15] List rules & 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URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Jun 8 21:44:02 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 21:44:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging a Bolt with an SW In-Reply-To: References: <19b11787-ca3c-e54e-978d-5ca5854f5ad7@solarray.com> Message-ID: <32f46700-d12d-d0d8-af9a-4738cea43972@solarray.com> I meant the efficiency of the electrical transfer of energy to the EV battery, not necessarily total system efficiency.  In general, higher charge rates means more heat, more line losses, etc.  Just look at the efficiency specs vs charge rate for any battery; its basic physics.  The lead acid battery side of the system especially works better at lower rates, but in your case you have surplus PV, so the house batteries are no longer really part of the equation.    Again, electrical efficiency is not always the end all, beat all; taking advantage of excess PV in the summer is improving overall system efficiency by utilizing power that would other wise be wasted, even if the efficiency of the energy transfer itself from one battery to another is a bit lower. On the other hand for a typical customer leaving the EV plugged in over night to go to work the next day, a lower charge rate will be better. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/8/20 3:54 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > >Lower charge rates are more efficient both for the car's battery and > the solar/ battery system > I don't get that. Our house battery is full at about 11 a.m., so we > have about four hours to charge the car. During that time we make > about 6KW, so the car uses 5KW of that and charges up. If I went to > the 120V charger, I would be charging all day and it still would not > be charged. > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 1:05 PM Ray > wrote: > > Also have a customer with a Leaf that can charge from a dual GVFX > system.  He uses the 120 vac charger.  Lower charge rates are more > efficient both for the car's battery and the solar/ battery > system, so I recommend sticking to the 120 vac chargers if possible. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 6/7/20 6:04 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: >> I was trying to charge a Nissan Leaf with a ? Iam not sure but >> two VFX i think old age.. i mostly rember having the problem.  I >> think the car  harger had a max of 2kw >> >> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020, 3:41 PM Jay > > wrote: >> >> I’ve got offgrid  2 clients and they have no issues. >> >> They each have a Bolt and can choose the charging rate. They >> can run it at either power. But only use higher power when >> they have lots of sun. >> Older Stacked vfx and Schneider xw, no issues. >> >> I would expect the SW to work, however it’s an odd beast as >> it’s waveform steps change with load. More load, more steps, >> therefor cleaner so maybe at lower charge rate it’s not clean >> enough. >> >> As to your issue it could be power factor Being really poor. >> Can you tell us what inverter, yea 5 years ago is a long time. >> >> >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Jun 7, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Darryl Thayer >>> > wrote: >>> >>>  >>> I think you said it well, about 5 years ago I tried to >>> charge a car from an off-grid system.  I did not record my >>> events but the inverter had twice the power of the level two >>> charger, yet the inverter would get hot and trip out.  I was >>> told a ferroresonant transformer may help, and it might be >>> different with different cars.  However, I was warned the >>> ferroresonant was to stop input wave problems from arriving >>> at the output not to prevent the output wave problems >>> showing up on the input.   The off-grid customer gave up. >>> >>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 6:36 AM Hilton Dier III >>> > wrote: >>> >>> The issue with EV chargers is that they create a lot of >>> reactive power. Think of it as "slosh" in the waveform. >>> That means that charging at 2,000 watts sloshes a lot >>> more than 2kW through the cable, plug, outlet, and from >>> the inverter. If you've got a reasonably good sinewave >>> inverter the charger will like it fine. However, the >>> inverter might not like the charger if you cut things >>> too close. Make sure to have a lot of top end left in >>> your inverter. Always use a transformer based inverter. >>> The SW series has a big chunk of metal in it, so that's >>> good. At 120V the Bolt will only draw 1440 watts max. >>> >>> An aftermarket Bolt 240V charger can draw up to 32 amps. >>> That's 7.7 kW, so too big for an SW. Treat it more like >>> 40 amps. The OEM 120/240 EVSE (smart charging cord) that >>> comes with the car can draw 8 or 12 amps at 120V or 12 >>> at 240V. Assume that the 8 amps is really 12 and the 12 >>> is really 15 or a bit more. I have seen 15 amp plugs and >>> outlets with the hot prong melting plastic around it. >>> The plug on the OEM EVSE is 20A rated but make sure your >>> outlet is as well. >>> >>> -- >>> Hilton Dier III >>> Missisquoi River Hydro >>> Renewable Energy Design >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Chris Mason > Solar systems designer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar > Anguilla Cell  264.235.5670 > WhatsApp 264.235.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > www.cometsolar.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 09:18:03 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 07:18:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, Are you certain that the branch circuits aren't crisscrossed somewhere, meaning that an L1 branch 1, isn't connected to an L2 branch 2? That could explain two different breakers tripping. Good luck On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 1:07 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Undoubtedly, the termination caps are the second thing we check after the > rooftop junction box(es). These are prone to installation errors, even when > the right parts are used. And given the cost, I've thought very long and > hard about abandoning them altogether and terminating strings in small > j-boxes with watertight fittings. But in this case, there was no evidence > of improper installation (we replaced them) and it was not correlated to > rain events. > > We are well equipped with bare Q-cable and field wireables that we could > use for troubleshooting to bypass certain sections, but the intermittent > nature of the problem and unpredictable timeframe between faults is very > frustrating. While this is a rare occurrence, it is definitely a "con" to > consider when comparing string vs. microinverters that I had not strongly > considered in the past. I'm intent on getting to the bottom of this in > order to learn what to look for in the future and how to approach diagnoses > of Enphase branch circuit faults. > > Jason > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 2:31 PM Amos Post > wrote: > >> I was just at a site last week where the Enphase branch circuit breaker, >> outside utility disconnect breaker, and feed breaker in the main panel all >> tripped simultaneously, and it happened about 1 hour before I showed up >> onsite. The customer said it had happened 1 other time last fall but that >> time it was just the 1 branch circuit in the Enphase combiner panel. >> Interestingly the customer mentioned that he had just washed off the >> panels, also about 1 hour before I got there. I went on the roof and found >> that the installing contractor had not put on the Enphase termination caps. >> 1 string was wire-nutted with regular wire nuts and sitting on the roof, >> and the roof was damp right there. This was a fairly flat roof. The other >> micro trunk cable was just cut with no protection at all, tied to the rail… >> >> >> >> >> Amos Post >> Integrity Energy >> W 802.763.7023 >> C 802.291.2188 >> ienergyVT.com >> >> Facebook >> >> >> On Jun 3, 2020, at 2:05 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> The breaker in the main panel IS tripping simultaneously with one of the >> branch circuit breakers each time. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 12:43 PM Jay wrote: >> >>> A question that keeps nagging me is why do these breakers trip and not >>> the breaker in the main panel? >>> Presuming there is a 40 amp in the main >>> >>> I would have thought that given all the times the breakers have tripped >>> at some point that one would have tripped and I can’t understand why not? >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jerry Shafer >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Wrenches >>> Looking g at the bigger breaker tripping at the same time is very likely >>> do to response time of the breaker nothing more. As l suggested in a >>> previous message. Use a non bridged breaker to see if it is one or both >>> legs that trip. Also an eguage will help to see what if anything leads up >>> to the failure and when. >>> Jerry >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 7:58 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I wonder about that. Of course, it could be the "inverter output >>>> circuit" having a fault in the wiring still (an intermittent issue >>>> somewhere within the IQ cable or home run wiring). But internal to the >>>> microinverter, is it possible that a fault could still occur at night? I >>>> had a suggestion from another wrench that there are film capacitors on the >>>> AC output side, but are these isolated when there is no DC input? It seems >>>> unlikely that this would be an issue, but I have seen microinverters >>>> reporting a couple of watts at night (in Enlighten). I'm not sure how real >>>> that is. >>>> >>>> The overriding question I have is what kind of fault would cause BOTH a >>>> branch circuit and the main solar breaker to trip simultaneously? That >>>> seems odd to me. If any normal load branch circuit has a fault, you don't >>>> often see premises main breakers tripping, or even feeder circuit breakers. >>>> >>>> I got to thinking that maybe there is some kind of issue between the >>>> BR220 and CH240 breakers not playing nicely together. But I would think >>>> this would be a well-known issue because I'm sure there are tons of CH >>>> feeder breakers in the wild with BR branch circuits downstream. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 9:25 AM >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> If it trips at night, we know it is not the output from the inverters >>>>> causing the tripping. The current must be coming from the grid. >>>>> --- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 2020-06-01 12:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It's not weather. It's at all times of the day and night, and I >>>>> confirmed that there is no correlation to rain or high winds. That was my >>>>> first suspicion. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:27 AM Ray wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Is it at all weather related? Rain, or high humidity? High >>>>> temperatures? Do you have any indication what time of day it trips off at? >>>>> >>>>> Ray Walters >>>>> Remote Solar >>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>> >>>>> On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit >>>>> breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. >>>>> >>>>> As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker >>>>> they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks >>>>> and then trip again. >>>>> >>>>> I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole system >>>>> apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel that I >>>>> need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive proposition. I >>>>> really don't know what else to do at this point. >>>>> >>>>> Jason >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we will >>>>> see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I have >>>>> two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined breaker. >>>>> I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping >>>>> simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >>>>> >>>>> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have >>>>> never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen >>>>> many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would >>>>> be replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max >>>>> string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string's >>>>> associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped again. >>>>> We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the breaker >>>>> was less than perfect from the start as we've add equally nice days since. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 watts >>>>> but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra careful >>>>> going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> My story. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Scot >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>>>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and >>>>> Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters >>>>> each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers >>>>> and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been >>>>> tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 >>>>> months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >>>>> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, >>>>> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different >>>>> branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We >>>>> checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely >>>>> that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched >>>>> out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers >>>>> crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another >>>>> diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One >>>>> thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible >>>>> disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line >>>>> fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if >>>>> there is in fact a fault. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase >>>>> systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned >>>>> out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on >>>>> different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault >>>>> which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out >>>>> of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This >>>>> case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> >>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at 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>>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jun 9 15:42:30 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 15:42:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, we double-checked that. I have seen that happen before and it's one of my early diagnostic steps for something like this. On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:18 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Jason, > > Are you certain that the branch circuits aren't crisscrossed somewhere, > meaning that an L1 branch 1, isn't connected to an L2 branch 2? That could > explain two different breakers tripping. > > Good luck > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 1:07 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Undoubtedly, the termination caps are the second thing we check after the >> rooftop junction box(es). These are prone to installation errors, even when >> the right parts are used. And given the cost, I've thought very long and >> hard about abandoning them altogether and terminating strings in small >> j-boxes with watertight fittings. But in this case, there was no evidence >> of improper installation (we replaced them) and it was not correlated to >> rain events. >> >> We are well equipped with bare Q-cable and field wireables that we could >> use for troubleshooting to bypass certain sections, but the intermittent >> nature of the problem and unpredictable timeframe between faults is very >> frustrating. While this is a rare occurrence, it is definitely a "con" to >> consider when comparing string vs. microinverters that I had not strongly >> considered in the past. I'm intent on getting to the bottom of this in >> order to learn what to look for in the future and how to approach diagnoses >> of Enphase branch circuit faults. >> >> Jason >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 2:31 PM Amos Post >> wrote: >> >>> I was just at a site last week where the Enphase branch circuit breaker, >>> outside utility disconnect breaker, and feed breaker in the main panel all >>> tripped simultaneously, and it happened about 1 hour before I showed up >>> onsite. The customer said it had happened 1 other time last fall but that >>> time it was just the 1 branch circuit in the Enphase combiner panel. >>> Interestingly the customer mentioned that he had just washed off the >>> panels, also about 1 hour before I got there. I went on the roof and found >>> that the installing contractor had not put on the Enphase termination caps. >>> 1 string was wire-nutted with regular wire nuts and sitting on the roof, >>> and the roof was damp right there. This was a fairly flat roof. The other >>> micro trunk cable was just cut with no protection at all, tied to the rail… >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Amos Post >>> Integrity Energy >>> W 802.763.7023 >>> C 802.291.2188 >>> ienergyVT.com >>> >>> Facebook >>> >>> >>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 2:05 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>> The breaker in the main panel IS tripping simultaneously with one of the >>> branch circuit breakers each time. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 12:43 PM Jay wrote: >>> >>>> A question that keeps nagging me is why do these breakers trip and not >>>> the breaker in the main panel? >>>> Presuming there is a 40 amp in the main >>>> >>>> I would have thought that given all the times the breakers have tripped >>>> at some point that one would have tripped and I can’t understand why not? >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jerry Shafer >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> Wrenches >>>> Looking g at the bigger breaker tripping at the same time is very >>>> likely do to response time of the breaker nothing more. As l suggested in a >>>> previous message. Use a non bridged breaker to see if it is one or both >>>> legs that trip. Also an eguage will help to see what if anything leads up >>>> to the failure and when. >>>> Jerry >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 7:58 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I wonder about that. Of course, it could be the "inverter output >>>>> circuit" having a fault in the wiring still (an intermittent issue >>>>> somewhere within the IQ cable or home run wiring). But internal to the >>>>> microinverter, is it possible that a fault could still occur at night? I >>>>> had a suggestion from another wrench that there are film capacitors on the >>>>> AC output side, but are these isolated when there is no DC input? It seems >>>>> unlikely that this would be an issue, but I have seen microinverters >>>>> reporting a couple of watts at night (in Enlighten). I'm not sure how real >>>>> that is. >>>>> >>>>> The overriding question I have is what kind of fault would cause BOTH >>>>> a branch circuit and the main solar breaker to trip simultaneously? That >>>>> seems odd to me. If any normal load branch circuit has a fault, you don't >>>>> often see premises main breakers tripping, or even feeder circuit breakers. >>>>> >>>>> I got to thinking that maybe there is some kind of issue between the >>>>> BR220 and CH240 breakers not playing nicely together. But I would think >>>>> this would be a well-known issue because I'm sure there are tons of CH >>>>> feeder breakers in the wild with BR branch circuits downstream. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 9:25 AM >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> If it trips at night, we know it is not the output from the inverters >>>>>> causing the tripping. The current must be coming from the grid. >>>>>> --- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2020-06-01 12:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> It's not weather. It's at all times of the day and night, and I >>>>>> confirmed that there is no correlation to rain or high winds. That was my >>>>>> first suspicion. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:27 AM Ray wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Is it at all weather related? Rain, or high humidity? High >>>>>> temperatures? Do you have any indication what time of day it trips off at? >>>>>> >>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>> >>>>>> On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit >>>>>> breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. >>>>>> >>>>>> As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker >>>>>> they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks >>>>>> and then trip again. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole >>>>>> system apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel >>>>>> that I need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive >>>>>> proposition. I really don't know what else to do at this point. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we >>>>>> will see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I >>>>>> have two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined >>>>>> breaker. I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping >>>>>> simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >>>>>> >>>>>> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have >>>>>> never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen >>>>>> many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would >>>>>> be replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max >>>>>> string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string's >>>>>> associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped >>>>>> again. We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the >>>>>> breaker was less than perfect from the start as we've add equally nice days >>>>>> since. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 >>>>>> watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra >>>>>> careful going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max >>>>>> published... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> My story. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Scot >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>>>>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>>>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and >>>>>> Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters >>>>>> each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers >>>>>> and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been >>>>>> tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 >>>>>> months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >>>>>> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, >>>>>> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different >>>>>> branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We >>>>>> checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely >>>>>> that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched >>>>>> out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers >>>>>> crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another >>>>>> diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One >>>>>> thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible >>>>>> disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line >>>>>> fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if >>>>>> there is in fact a fault. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase >>>>>> systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned >>>>>> out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on >>>>>> different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault >>>>>> which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out >>>>>> of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This >>>>>> case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> >>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at 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_______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Tue Jun 9 20:50:07 2020 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 20:50:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Princeton Power UL Listing Message-ID: Hi All, I am helping someone get a utility agreement after the fact that they already installed a system. They used a Princeton Power DRI-10 inverter. Among many other things, the utility requires the UL certificate for interconnected inverters. I cannot find it online anywhere. I have found a press release from Princeton Power stating that the DRI-10 inverter has received its UL listing. But does anyone out there actually have the certificate that they would be willing to share? Thanks! -Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 12:48:14 2020 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 11:48:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commercial Inverters - Neutral Conductor Message-ID: Greetings Wrenches, I am curious about the requirement or non-requirement to run a neutral conductor in the output circuit for commercial (3-phase) inverters. I understand that this requirement will not apply in certain scenarios simply due to the grid configuration, e.g. 480 Vac delta. I also understand that the installation manual for each inverter must firstly be consulted to check for such requirement/non-requirement, and that any instructions found there will generally take precedence over *NEC* language. *Can anyone speak to any other general rules regarding whether or not to run the neutral?* Assuming a neutral conductor is run for "instrumentation, voltage detection, or phase detection" per 705.95(B), *would this conductor be counted as a *current-carrying* conductor when applying the adjustment factors found in 310.15(B)(3)(a)?* -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Jun 11 02:05:52 2020 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 00:05:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA question Message-ID: Wrenches, Here's one I haven't encountered before, and I'm interested in the range of opinions I may receive. My battery supplier screwed up, and they admit it. On April 27 I ordered a 24V set of 2V Surrette L16 FLAs for a long time client; note that these were the client's choice after his extensive research. The lead time was estimated at 10-12 weeks. Today I got the news that the distribution center in Reno had not placed the order, as collective orders for Rolls batteries were so slow during Covid that they hadn't wanted to ship just one set. I was told that they had a set in the Reno warehouse that they could bring to Albuquerque that had a manufacture date of 6/26/2019. I was told that at rest the 12 cells showed an average resting voltage of 2.14 vpc, with the highest at 2.18V and the lowest at 2.08V. I was offered them at a discount of ~18% off of my dealer cost. Should I have any hesitation about accepting and installing a set that has sat at rest for nearly a year? The alternative is to start over with the 10-12 week lead time, unless we can arrange a rush delivery. Opinions welcome here, please. Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional (charter certificant) #102503-52 New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jun 11 02:36:47 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 23:36:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25519d20c9bf8338f85795d9402e2357@mail.gmail.com> Allan: If it were me, I would give my client a clear description of the circumstances and ask them to make the decision. If they are not totally comfortable with accepting the older batteries, then the decision is easy: Ask for an expedited order of new batteries at no extra cost. If this is not forthcoming, start pricing at other vendors. I might add: don’t hesitate to shop around. Here’s an anecdote: a local franchise battery dealer took exception that I advocated for a client in a warranty dispute and refused to sell to me. I prefer local vendors, but in this case felt justified in shopping on-line. I found the Full Rivers for considerably cheaper. Contact me off list for a referral. Good luck. William Miller *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Sindelar Solar *Sent:* Wednesday, June 10, 2020 11:06 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] FLA question Wrenches, Here's one I haven't encountered before, and I'm interested in the range of opinions I may receive. My battery supplier screwed up, and they admit it. On April 27 I ordered a 24V set of 2V Surrette L16 FLAs for a long time client; note that these were the client's choice after his extensive research. The lead time was estimated at 10-12 weeks. Today I got the news that the distribution center in Reno had not placed the order, as collective orders for Rolls batteries were so slow during Covid that they hadn't wanted to ship just one set. I was told that they had a set in the Reno warehouse that they could bring to Albuquerque that had a manufacture date of 6/26/2019. I was told that at rest the 12 cells showed an average resting voltage of 2.14 vpc, with the highest at 2.18V and the lowest at 2.08V. I was offered them at a discount of ~18% off of my dealer cost. Should I have any hesitation about accepting and installing a set that has sat at rest for nearly a year? The alternative is to start over with the 10-12 week lead time, unless we can arrange a rush delivery. Opinions welcome here, please. Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional (charter certificant) #102503-52 New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Jun 11 07:09:09 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:09:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5956C3EC-D3A4-455A-867B-B94C6F2DD2C7@swnl.net> Im sure that Steve H. will have the “official” word on this but…. I find these cells quite robust and I would suggest that your “supplier” ck the SPG then charge them, & recheck prior to shipping. These are my go to cells if they want more that the 6CPS 25-27 plate 5000 series capacity. Have I had issues, yes, but I also install a lot of their batteries & their "lil pitbull of Warrantee", SH has been good to me. Keep good records, SPG& VpC, and polarity check, prior to site delivery and accurate record keeping after that using a refractometer. Surrette’s warrantee has fallen in line w/ most other battery manu’s as far as the Wtee. time frame, so check. > On Jun 11, 2020, at 2:05 AM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > > Wrenches, > > Here's one I haven't encountered before, and I'm interested in the range of opinions I may receive. > > My battery supplier screwed up, and they admit it. On April 27 I ordered a 24V set of 2V Surrette L16 FLAs for a long time client; note that these were the client's choice after his extensive research. The lead time was estimated at 10-12 weeks. Today I got the news that the distribution center in Reno had not placed the order, as collective orders for Rolls batteries were so slow during Covid that they hadn't wanted to ship just one set. > > I was told that they had a set in the Reno warehouse that they could bring to Albuquerque that had a manufacture date of 6/26/2019. I was told that at rest the 12 cells showed an average resting voltage of 2.14 vpc, with the highest at 2.18V and the lowest at 2.08V. > > I was offered them at a discount of ~18% off of my dealer cost. > > Should I have any hesitation about accepting and installing a set that has sat at rest for nearly a year? The alternative is to start over with the 10-12 week lead time, unless we can arrange a rush delivery. > > Opinions welcome here, please. > > Allan > > -- > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional (charter certificant) #102503-52 > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Thu Jun 11 09:47:17 2020 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:47:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA question In-Reply-To: <5956C3EC-D3A4-455A-867B-B94C6F2DD2C7@swnl.net> References: <5956C3EC-D3A4-455A-867B-B94C6F2DD2C7@swnl.net> Message-ID: Allan, I have seen batteries that have been in a warehouse environment for up to 5 or more years without issue as long as they are boosted regularly. I know the distributor you are dealing with and they are good, "most of the time" in taking care of them while they have them in stock. To be honest when I started at Rolls they weren't so good, and have gotten much better over the years with plenty of harassment.... If there are doubts, have them put them on a charger and have them report to you the SG's from each cell before and after they charge them before you purchase them. The voltages look good but those can be deceiving. I personally have a hard time trusting trust Voltages, I would also check the SG's upon receipt... the driver won't be happy, but if they are significantly lower than what the Distributor reported to you before they left, then well you know they are not being truthful. I would expect a max drop of .010 points at the absolute most... So if they tell you they are 1.265... they should be not lower than 1.255... The Warranty for these won't start until you purchase them... so if you sell them to your customer Today... The warranty starts on June 11 2020... regardless of Mfg Date. As for the lead times... we haven't had much of a slow down at all, there were two weeks in early April that were slower than normal, but in the past 8 weeks orders have more than made up for that slow period. Covid has forced use to go to three shifts to stay with the social distancing requirements in Canada... so right now if a dist orders batteries our lead times run in the 7-8 week lead time with them quoting 10-12 that make sense due to shipping delays that we are currently seeing. In the end Allen contact me off list and we can work this out... I be happy to work with you and the customer in case there is an issue... Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#m_-4461092351922703360_m_599033182437770976_SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ *Become a Certified PV Professional. Register for* *NABCEP CEC 2020* *using promo code* *20RBE* ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 4:09 AM Tump wrote: > Im sure that Steve H. will have the “official” word on this but…. > I find these cells quite robust and I would suggest that your “supplier” > ck the SPG then charge them, & recheck prior to shipping. These are my go > to cells if they want more that the 6CPS 25-27 plate 5000 series capacity. > Have I had issues, yes, but I also install a lot of their batteries & their > "lil pitbull of Warrantee", SH has been good to me. Keep good records, SPG& > VpC, and polarity check, prior to site delivery and accurate record keeping > after that using a refractometer. > Surrette’s warrantee has fallen in line w/ most other battery manu’s as > far as the Wtee. time frame, so check. > > On Jun 11, 2020, at 2:05 AM, Sindelar Solar > wrote: > > Wrenches, > > Here's one I haven't encountered before, and I'm interested in the range > of opinions I may receive. > > My battery supplier screwed up, and they admit it. On April 27 I ordered a > 24V set of 2V Surrette L16 FLAs for a long time client; note that these > were the client's choice after his extensive research. The lead time was > estimated at 10-12 weeks. Today I got the news that the distribution center > in Reno had not placed the order, as collective orders for Rolls batteries > were so slow during Covid that they hadn't wanted to ship just one set. > > I was told that they had a set in the Reno warehouse that they could bring > to Albuquerque that had a manufacture date of 6/26/2019. I was told that at > rest the 12 cells showed an average resting voltage of 2.14 vpc, with the > highest at 2.18V and the lowest at 2.08V. > > I was offered them at a discount of ~18% off of my dealer cost. > > Should I have any hesitation about accepting and installing a set that has > sat at rest for nearly a year? The alternative is to start over with the > 10-12 week lead time, unless we can arrange a rush delivery. > > Opinions welcome here, please. > > Allan > -- > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional (charter certificant) > #102503-52 > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 10:50:27 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:50:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Allan You could wait but you will not know what you get untill it arrives, I would take what you got, they need a good charge anyway and after you may find it difficult to pick out the oldest one just from voltage. Jerry On Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 11:05 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: > Wrenches, > > Here's one I haven't encountered before, and I'm interested in the range > of opinions I may receive. > > My battery supplier screwed up, and they admit it. On April 27 I ordered a > 24V set of 2V Surrette L16 FLAs for a long time client; note that these > were the client's choice after his extensive research. The lead time was > estimated at 10-12 weeks. Today I got the news that the distribution center > in Reno had not placed the order, as collective orders for Rolls batteries > were so slow during Covid that they hadn't wanted to ship just one set. > > I was told that they had a set in the Reno warehouse that they could bring > to Albuquerque that had a manufacture date of 6/26/2019. I was told that at > rest the 12 cells showed an average resting voltage of 2.14 vpc, with the > highest at 2.18V and the lowest at 2.08V. > > I was offered them at a discount of ~18% off of my dealer cost. > > Should I have any hesitation about accepting and installing a set that has > sat at rest for nearly a year? The alternative is to start over with the > 10-12 week lead time, unless we can arrange a rush delivery. > > Opinions welcome here, please. > > Allan > -- > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional (charter certificant) > #102503-52 > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jun 11 11:14:24 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 11:14:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3490b0d4-1418-411a-d7c6-08ab1c43d6f8@solarray.com> As far as 2v L16s go, I've not seen good things with the Trojan L16 2 v cells.  The Rolls version looks like it is one cell though, not 3 cells paralleled internally like the infamous Trojan.  The voltages sound a bit low, can they give you SG readings? How come they haven't put those on a maintenance charge at the warehouse?   I've dealt with batteries that have sat uncharged for quite a while, and not had any issues, but definitely didn't get outstanding life either.  I'd pass the discount to the customer and let them decide.  I'd also offer another battery choice too.  The HUP for instance is going to have a better price per cycle in the long run, since it has 2100 cycles to 80% DOD vs 1200 for the Rolls.  With the sitting, I'd figure more like 1000 cycles actual maybe.  So the cost of the Rolls would need to be less than half what an equivalent HUP is. Also beware, many customers get fooled by Rolls' amp hour specs. They list 100 hr discharge rates, so the Rolls can look amazing on paper.  However, the customer really needs to be designing and comparing at the 20 hr rate.  I've made that same mistake, and was quite disappointed. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/11/20 2:05 AM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > > Wrenches, > > Here's one I haven't encountered before, and I'm interested in the > range of opinions I may receive. > > My battery supplier screwed up, and they admit it. On April 27 I > ordered a 24V set of 2V Surrette L16 FLAs for a long time client; note > that these were the client's choice after his extensive research. The > lead time was estimated at 10-12 weeks. Today I got the news that the > distribution center in Reno had not placed the order, as collective > orders for Rolls batteries were so slow during Covid that they hadn't > wanted to ship just one set. > > I was told that they had a set in the Reno warehouse that they could > bring to Albuquerque that had a manufacture date of 6/26/2019. I was > told that at rest the 12 cells showed an average resting voltage of > 2.14 vpc, with the highest at 2.18V and the lowest at 2.08V. > > I was offered them at a discount of ~18% off of my dealer cost. > > Should I have any hesitation about accepting and installing a set that > has sat at rest for nearly a year? The alternative is to start over > with the 10-12 week lead time, unless we can arrange a rush delivery. > > Opinions welcome here, please. > > Allan > > -- > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional (charter certificant) > #102503-52 > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Thu Jun 11 10:29:11 2020 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:29:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006401d63ffc$ad20e150$0762a3f0$@solarwindworks.com> Hi Allan, Living close to the distribution center in Reno, I’ve been in there a few times picking up sets of Rolls and having them repaired there too. It is by far the cleanest operation for a battery shop I have seen. It’s too bad that the order got dropped , that is not their norm. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP PV Installation Professional Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Sindelar Solar Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 11:06 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA question Wrenches, Here's one I haven't encountered before, and I'm interested in the range of opinions I may receive. My battery supplier screwed up, and they admit it. On April 27 I ordered a 24V set of 2V Surrette L16 FLAs for a long time client; note that these were the client's choice after his extensive research. The lead time was estimated at 10-12 weeks. Today I got the news that the distribution center in Reno had not placed the order, as collective orders for Rolls batteries were so slow during Covid that they hadn't wanted to ship just one set. I was told that they had a set in the Reno warehouse that they could bring to Albuquerque that had a manufacture date of 6/26/2019. I was told that at rest the 12 cells showed an average resting voltage of 2.14 vpc, with the highest at 2.18V and the lowest at 2.08V. I was offered them at a discount of ~18% off of my dealer cost. Should I have any hesitation about accepting and installing a set that has sat at rest for nearly a year? The alternative is to start over with the 10-12 week lead time, unless we can arrange a rush delivery. Opinions welcome here, please. Allan -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional (charter certificant) #102503-52 New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 12:29:24 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:29:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA question In-Reply-To: <417AEFDD-EBA2-44D0-8D2D-E9632E4F2DD0@gmail.com> References: <417AEFDD-EBA2-44D0-8D2D-E9632E4F2DD0@gmail.com> Message-ID: To allans question as to if it’s a good idea to get these old batteries. If you need them you need them. I’d ask for 25% off and that the warranty would start from delivered date. Not knowing which battery model His customer is specifying , but I had a client who left his new rolls for a year Just sitting no load and they recovered normally, amazing. Jay Peltz Power. > On Jun 11, 2020, at 9:23 AM, Jay wrote: > >  > Hi Ray > > Depends on which rolls battery L-16’s > > The EX version is 3400 cycles to 50%, and 2100 cycles to 80% the more standard version is around 1800 cycles to 50% and 1000 cycles to 80%. > > And the Ah specs listed on the rolls site uses the 20 hr rate. > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > > >>> On Jun 11, 2020, at 8:14 AM, Ray wrote: >>> >>  >> As far as 2v L16s go, I've not seen good things with the Trojan L16 2 v cells. The Rolls version looks like it is one cell though, not 3 cells paralleled internally like the infamous Trojan. The voltages sound a bit low, can they give you SG readings? How come they haven't put those on a maintenance charge at the warehouse? I've dealt with batteries that have sat uncharged for quite a while, and not had any issues, but definitely didn't get outstanding life either. I'd pass the discount to the customer and let them decide. I'd also offer another battery choice too. The HUP for instance is going to have a better price per cycle in the long run, since it has 2100 cycles to 80% DOD vs 1200 for the Rolls. With the sitting, I'd figure more like 1000 cycles actual maybe. So the cost of the Rolls would need to be less than half what an equivalent HUP is. >> >> Also beware, many customers get fooled by Rolls' amp hour specs. They list 100 hr discharge rates, so the Rolls can look amazing on paper. However, the customer really needs to be designing and comparing at the 20 hr rate. I've made that same mistake, and was quite disappointed. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 6/11/20 2:05 AM, Sindelar Solar wrote: >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> Here's one I haven't encountered before, and I'm interested in the range of opinions I may receive. >>> >>> My battery supplier screwed up, and they admit it. On April 27 I ordered a 24V set of 2V Surrette L16 FLAs for a long time client; note that these were the client's choice after his extensive research. The lead time was estimated at 10-12 weeks. Today I got the news that the distribution center in Reno had not placed the order, as collective orders for Rolls batteries were so slow during Covid that they hadn't wanted to ship just one set. >>> >>> I was told that they had a set in the Reno warehouse that they could bring to Albuquerque that had a manufacture date of 6/26/2019. I was told that at rest the 12 cells showed an average resting voltage of 2.14 vpc, with the highest at 2.18V and the lowest at 2.08V. >>> >>> I was offered them at a discount of ~18% off of my dealer cost. >>> >>> Should I have any hesitation about accepting and installing a set that has sat at rest for nearly a year? The alternative is to start over with the 10-12 week lead time, unless we can arrange a rush delivery. >>> >>> Opinions welcome here, please. >>> >>> Allan >>> >>> -- >>> Allan Sindelar >>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional (charter certificant) #102503-52 >>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>> 505 780-2738 cell >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 12:23:15 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:23:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA question In-Reply-To: <3490b0d4-1418-411a-d7c6-08ab1c43d6f8@solarray.com> References: <3490b0d4-1418-411a-d7c6-08ab1c43d6f8@solarray.com> Message-ID: <417AEFDD-EBA2-44D0-8D2D-E9632E4F2DD0@gmail.com> Hi Ray Depends on which rolls battery L-16’s The EX version is 3400 cycles to 50%, and 2100 cycles to 80% the more standard version is around 1800 cycles to 50% and 1000 cycles to 80%. And the Ah specs listed on the rolls site uses the 20 hr rate. Jay Peltz power. > On Jun 11, 2020, at 8:14 AM, Ray wrote: > >  > As far as 2v L16s go, I've not seen good things with the Trojan L16 2 v cells. The Rolls version looks like it is one cell though, not 3 cells paralleled internally like the infamous Trojan. The voltages sound a bit low, can they give you SG readings? How come they haven't put those on a maintenance charge at the warehouse? I've dealt with batteries that have sat uncharged for quite a while, and not had any issues, but definitely didn't get outstanding life either. I'd pass the discount to the customer and let them decide. I'd also offer another battery choice too. The HUP for instance is going to have a better price per cycle in the long run, since it has 2100 cycles to 80% DOD vs 1200 for the Rolls. With the sitting, I'd figure more like 1000 cycles actual maybe. So the cost of the Rolls would need to be less than half what an equivalent HUP is. > > Also beware, many customers get fooled by Rolls' amp hour specs. They list 100 hr discharge rates, so the Rolls can look amazing on paper. However, the customer really needs to be designing and comparing at the 20 hr rate. I've made that same mistake, and was quite disappointed. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 6/11/20 2:05 AM, Sindelar Solar wrote: >> Wrenches, >> >> Here's one I haven't encountered before, and I'm interested in the range of opinions I may receive. >> >> My battery supplier screwed up, and they admit it. On April 27 I ordered a 24V set of 2V Surrette L16 FLAs for a long time client; note that these were the client's choice after his extensive research. The lead time was estimated at 10-12 weeks. Today I got the news that the distribution center in Reno had not placed the order, as collective orders for Rolls batteries were so slow during Covid that they hadn't wanted to ship just one set. >> >> I was told that they had a set in the Reno warehouse that they could bring to Albuquerque that had a manufacture date of 6/26/2019. I was told that at rest the 12 cells showed an average resting voltage of 2.14 vpc, with the highest at 2.18V and the lowest at 2.08V. >> >> I was offered them at a discount of ~18% off of my dealer cost. >> >> Should I have any hesitation about accepting and installing a set that has sat at rest for nearly a year? The alternative is to start over with the 10-12 week lead time, unless we can arrange a rush delivery. >> >> Opinions welcome here, please. >> >> Allan >> >> -- >> Allan Sindelar >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional (charter certificant) #102503-52 >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> 505 780-2738 cell >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at getpimby.com Thu Jun 11 15:56:25 2020 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matt Sherald) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:56:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ and Schneider XW AC Coupling Performance Message-ID: Friends, About seven years back I connected a dozen M215 Enphase inverters to our battery backup system at home (Schneider XW4024 with 370AH battery bank). The result was something that I would never want to duplicate for a customer owing mainly to the flickering of lights during the daytime when the XW is shifting frequency. I'm curious if the newer Enphase IQ and Schneider XW equipment behave better in an AC coupling scenario. Can the newer Schneider inverters cue the micros to taper their output and are there any downsides to power quality that the customer might notice during an outage? Hoping to glean some real-world observations. Many thanks in advance!! -Matt -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Thu Jun 11 16:16:10 2020 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:16:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LI Batteries Message-ID: <001601d6402d$25a86ff0$70f94fd0$@mindspring.com> Hello Fellow wrenchers. Has anyone purchased and used any batteries from Electric Car Parts out of Utah. They have a 48 volt, 5, 7.5 and 10 KW Lipo battery made by Energetech ( China ) . I have a customer that would like to use the product ( low cost ) but it is tough getting any actual info from the company i.e UL Certification paperwork or do the batteries have a BMS. If anyone has any experience with these folks please let me know. Just looking out for my customer and the lack of response and follow up from ECP is making me nervous. Thank you all in advance. Thx Peter Giroux American Solar Roswell Ga 678 525 0468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jun 11 17:33:21 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:33:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ and Schneider XW AC Coupling Performance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47b655c79f77594a8bdeda9359843c59@127.0.0.1> The old gray box XW's never really were designed for AC coupling. It could be made to work with a xantrex grid inverter but most were told to upgrade to the white box XW+ and XWpro. I doubt anyone would notice the XW+ or pro when it shifts a couple hz to protect the battery after it is charged. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:56:25 -0400, Matt Sherald wrote: Friends, About seven years back I connected a dozen M215 Enphase inverters to our battery backup system at home (Schneider XW4024 with 370AH battery bank). The result was something that I would never want to duplicate for a customer owing mainly to the flickering of lights during the daytime when the XW is shifting frequency. I'm curious if the newer Enphase IQ and Schneider XW equipment behave better in an AC coupling scenario. Can the newer Schneider inverters cue the micros to taper their output and are there any downsides to power quality that the customer might notice during an outage? Hoping to glean some real-world observations. Many thanks in advance!! -Matt -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(R) 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com [3] www.getpimby.com [4] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.getpimby.blogspot.com [4] http://www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jun 11 17:42:22 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:42:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LI Batteries In-Reply-To: <001601d6402d$25a86ff0$70f94fd0$@mindspring.com> References: <001601d6402d$25a86ff0$70f94fd0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <4cda4a3cbfefbfeb7e1e1238162cc09e@127.0.0.1> I would also look at if the battery is listed for residential and if homeowners insurance would accept them? UL 1973 and UL 9540 are typical requirements for the battery as a whole, and not just the cells in a battery. You really want the insurance to be there in a claim. At the minimum, inform the client and get a personal liability waiver for your company. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:16:10 -0400, pgiroux at mindspring.com wrote: Hello Fellow wrenchers. Has anyone purchased and used any batteries from Electric Car Parts out of Utah. They have a 48 volt, 5, 7.5 and 10 KW Lipo battery made by Energetech ( China ) . I have a customer that would like to use the product ( low cost ) but it is tough getting any actual info from the company i.e UL Certification paperwork or do the batteries have a BMS. If anyone has any experience with these folks please let me know. Just looking out for my customer and the lack of response and follow up from ECP is making me nervous. Thank you all in advance. Thx Peter Giroux American Solar Roswell Ga 678 525 0468 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Fri Jun 12 09:34:17 2020 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:34:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LI Batteries In-Reply-To: <001601d6402d$25a86ff0$70f94fd0$@mindspring.com> References: <001601d6402d$25a86ff0$70f94fd0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Zeke Yewdall who does a lot of off-grid installations and teaches at SEI has worked with LI batteries from a supplier who works with electric cars like this before so I reached out to him. I know he had a lot of problems with the BMS because it wasn't designed for use with solar and the support he got wasn't great. Here's his response: "That isn't the one that I did not like. It looks like yet another prepackaged Chinese option, and the price is certainly attractive. Usually, LFP is between 50 and 55 or 56 volts, not 46 to 58.4 like they claim, so I suspect those are actually the voltages where the built-in BMS shuts off the contactors. But if you kept it to the middle range with your solar equipment, then it would probably behave okay. A lot of these BMS's get grumpy if you exceed current, even for the inrush charging the inverter capacitors, so that's something I've run into sometimes. If it can't take a second or two of inrush current, you may need to do a precharge circuit which is a pain. Some (ReLion) seem to not have an issue with inrush though. I've bought some small stuff from ECP before, and they were slow and not super responsive, but eventually, I did get it... Certainly, the type of thing that I'd use on my own system before I tried to sell it to a customer... I've learned over the years to do that with a lot of stuff (and some stuff -- even from well-known manufacturers like Schneider for example that I thought I didn't need to look out for, I've regretted NOT doing that). Also, with Chinese equipment, a lot of us suspect that the certification means nothing -- they learn that it sells better if they print a certification on it, but they don't necessarily actually do the tests and all. So..... unless you can get the actual letter with the UL numbers, I wouldn't necessarily put much faith in that. This is coming more from the radio side of Chinese equipment, but I suspect it could apply to the solar side as well." Thanks, Will -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 4:16 PM wrote: > Hello Fellow wrenchers. Has anyone purchased and used any batteries from > Electric Car Parts out of Utah. They have a 48 volt, 5, 7.5 and 10 KW Lipo > battery made by Energetech ( China ) . I have a customer that would like to > use the product ( low cost ) but it is tough getting any actual info from > the company i.e UL Certification paperwork or do the batteries have a BMS. > If anyone has any experience with these folks please let me know. Just > looking out for my customer and the lack of response and follow up from ECP > is making me nervous. Thank you all in advance. > > > > Thx > Peter Giroux > > American Solar > > Roswell Ga > > 678 525 0468 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Fri Jun 12 09:59:35 2020 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 06:59:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Frequency Shift Message-ID: <4eedb3c4-7d8f-6f1b-3c80-dae86e7c8d33@berkeleysolar.com> Looking for confirmation from Wrenches who know Magnum inverters: - MS-PAE -ME-RC - Frequency shift enabled (battery type "Custom") - AC coupled PV inverters w/o frequency shift capability Function: At Absorb voltage frequency shift is zero, at Absorb voltage + 6 V, shift is 0.5 Hz (in 0.3 volt increments) This is from my notes from a tech support call, but I am wondering if I have it mixed up. Protecting at 6 volts above the Absorb seems a bit high. Thanks, Mark From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 10:12:37 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 07:12:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Frequency Shift In-Reply-To: <4eedb3c4-7d8f-6f1b-3c80-dae86e7c8d33@berkeleysolar.com> References: <4eedb3c4-7d8f-6f1b-3c80-dae86e7c8d33@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <686E2BE0-0091-4EC7-A4BA-B5C3F89584E4@gmail.com> Hi Mark I found this which might be of help. https://www.magnum-dimensions.com/sites/default/files/MagArchive/AN-0002-AC-Coupling-Rev-5-10.pdf Jay Peltz power. > On Jun 12, 2020, at 6:59 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > > Looking for confirmation from Wrenches who know Magnum inverters: > > - MS-PAE > > -ME-RC > > - Frequency shift enabled (battery type "Custom") > > - AC coupled PV inverters w/o frequency shift capability > > Function: > > At Absorb voltage frequency shift is zero, at Absorb voltage + 6 V, shift is 0.5 Hz (in 0.3 volt increments) > > This is from my notes from a tech support call, but I am wondering if I have it mixed up. Protecting at 6 volts above the Absorb seems a bit high. > > Thanks, > > Mark > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Jun 12 11:59:18 2020 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 08:59:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LI Batteries In-Reply-To: <001601d6402d$25a86ff0$70f94fd0$@mindspring.com> References: <001601d6402d$25a86ff0$70f94fd0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <17D13EC4-E68C-43EF-87B5-1F73FF05CFF5@starlightsolar.com> Peter, This may be of interest to anyone looking into cheap Li battery products. For 7 years we have been dealing in Li batteries as a retailer, installer, distributor and importer. Not a single day goes by that I don’t receive 1 or more emails from a Li-ion battery company in China. I’m not exaggerating. All are requesting that we import and sell their brand of battery. Most of them claim to have been in business for many years, have hundreds of employees and a huge variety of battery models. I asked our battery manufacturer (LiFeBlue Battery) about the growing number of cheap battery offerings I receive daily; their explanation follows: In China over the last 10 years there have been many startup cell manufacturers. Most of these companies fail leaving literally tons of orphaned battery cell inventories. These batteries may sit for years in unknown climates. Right now there are battery cells being sold on eB….auction site that I know were manufactured 5 years ago! Battery cell lots are eventually bought up and packaged under a new company name. These are usually very small businesses with just a few employees but with a big web presence. In China many use advertising guile (lying) to promote their product. The products are offered at much lower than current wholesale prices. For example, I can buy a 100Ah, 12V LFP drop in battery with BMS for $260. My point to all is, buyer beware when considering cheap Li battery offerings. Nervous is good, Peter. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jun 11, 2020, at 1:16 PM, wrote: Hello Fellow wrenchers. Has anyone purchased and used any batteries from Electric Car Parts out of Utah. They have a 48 volt, 5, 7.5 and 10 KW Lipo battery made by Energetech ( China ) . I have a customer that would like to use the product ( low cost ) but it is tough getting any actual info from the company i.e UL Certification paperwork or do the batteries have a BMS. If anyone has any experience with these folks please let me know. Just looking out for my customer and the lack of response and follow up from ECP is making me nervous. Thank you all in advance. Thx Peter Giroux American Solar Roswell Ga 678 525 0468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Fri Jun 12 13:08:28 2020 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 10:08:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Frequency Shift In-Reply-To: <686E2BE0-0091-4EC7-A4BA-B5C3F89584E4@gmail.com> References: <4eedb3c4-7d8f-6f1b-3c80-dae86e7c8d33@berkeleysolar.com> <686E2BE0-0091-4EC7-A4BA-B5C3F89584E4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <747459df-4108-8647-dd3a-c9c7f3cf4f3e@berkeleysolar.com> Thanks Jay, I talked again with Magnum. I have the latest Rev 6.1 MS-PAE 4448 so the exact implementation has changed from that described in AN002, 5/10. The current Rev. has changes designed to improve interaction with the GT inverters. I didn't really get to the bottom of that. But the critical aspect of this remains unchanged: - the Magnum will have shifted the frequency by 0.5 Hz when the DC voltage rises to Absorb + 4V. This makes more sense than the 6V I had in my notes (which may have meant 6V above Float.) With all this in mind, I think I will plan on using this feature as a backup to an AC dump load controller set to maintain Float voltage. On 6/12/2020 7:12 AM, Jay wrote: > Hi Mark > > I found this which might be of help. > > https://www.magnum-dimensions.com/sites/default/files/MagArchive/AN-0002-AC-Coupling-Rev-5-10.pdf > > Jay > Peltz power. > >> On Jun 12, 2020, at 6:59 AM, Mark Frye wrote: >> >> Looking for confirmation from Wrenches who know Magnum inverters: >> >> - MS-PAE >> >> -ME-RC >> >> - Frequency shift enabled (battery type "Custom") >> >> - AC coupled PV inverters w/o frequency shift capability >> >> Function: >> >> At Absorb voltage frequency shift is zero, at Absorb voltage + 6 V, >> shift is 0.5 Hz (in 0.3 volt increments) >> >> This is from my notes from a tech support call, but I am wondering if >> I have it mixed up. Protecting at 6 volts above the Absorb seems a >> bit high. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mark >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jun 12 13:19:53 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 10:19:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Frequency Shift In-Reply-To: <747459df-4108-8647-dd3a-c9c7f3cf4f3e@berkeleysolar.com> References: <4eedb3c4-7d8f-6f1b-3c80-dae86e7c8d33@berkeleysolar.com> <686E2BE0-0091-4EC7-A4BA-B5C3F89584E4@gmail.com> <747459df-4108-8647-dd3a-c9c7f3cf4f3e@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <0bfdb7ed4a7f789ef9f91fa6f1c3743c@127.0.0.1> Also keep in mind that when AC coupling with legacy PV inverters without frequency-Watt capability, the battery based inverter will have reduced ability to regulate the battery charge. A modern GT inverter will give you faster and more accurate charging. The older GT's, may not be good enough for me, and certainly not my clients. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 10:08:28 -0700, Mark Frye wrote: Thanks Jay, I talked again with Magnum. I have the latest Rev 6.1 MS-PAE 4448 so the exact implementation has changed from that described in AN002, 5/10. The current Rev. has changes designed to improve interaction with the GT inverters. I didn't really get to the bottom of that. But the critical aspect of this remains unchanged: - the Magnum will have shifted the frequency by 0.5 Hz when the DC voltage rises to Absorb + 4V. This makes more sense than the 6V I had in my notes (which may have meant 6V above Float.) With all this in mind, I think I will plan on using this feature as a backup to an AC dump load controller set to maintain Float voltage. On 6/12/2020 7:12 AM, Jay wrote: Hi Mark I found this which might be of help. https://www.magnum-dimensions.com/sites/default/files/MagArchive/AN-0002-AC-Coupling-Rev-5-10.pdf [3] Jay Peltz power. On Jun 12, 2020, at 6:59 AM, Mark Frye [4] wrote: Looking for confirmation from Wrenches who know Magnum inverters: - MS-PAE -ME-RC - Frequency shift enabled (battery type "Custom") - AC coupled PV inverters w/o frequency shift capability Function: At Absorb voltage frequency shift is zero, at Absorb voltage + 6 V, shift is 0.5 Hz (in 0.3 volt increments) This is from my notes from a tech support call, but I am wondering if I have it mixed up. Protecting at 6 volts above the Absorb seems a bit high. Thanks, Mark _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [9] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [12] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [14] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://www.magnum-dimensions.com/sites/default/files/MagArchive/AN-0002-AC-Coupling-Rev-5-10.pdf [4] mailto:markf at berkeleysolar.com [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [13] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 13:11:03 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 10:11:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar tracker Message-ID: <7F48F9F1-F74C-41BE-9F75-0AF619E55307@gmail.com> Hi all I have a client who’s pretty talented. He wants to build his own dual axis solar tracker, in the 8-12 module range. I’m asking if anyone know of plans or where to get designs. I’m not asking for anyone to give free consultation help. Thanks Jay Peltz power. From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 13:14:43 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 10:14:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Frequency Shift In-Reply-To: <747459df-4108-8647-dd3a-c9c7f3cf4f3e@berkeleysolar.com> References: <747459df-4108-8647-dd3a-c9c7f3cf4f3e@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Mark, Agreed that diversion is the way to go. As 4v above absorb volts is completely unworkable. But I’m not sure that I agree about .5 hz will do anything. The new rule 21 inverters go off line at 64 hz. And there is a type of tapering based on hz shift, but it won’t shut off a new gt inverter at+ .5hz. Cheers Jay > On Jun 12, 2020, at 10:08 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > >  > Thanks Jay, > > I talked again with Magnum. > > I have the latest Rev 6.1 MS-PAE 4448 so the exact implementation has changed from that described in AN002, 5/10. The current Rev. has changes designed to improve interaction with the GT inverters. I didn't really get to the bottom of that. But the critical aspect of this remains unchanged: > > - the Magnum will have shifted the frequency by 0.5 Hz when the DC voltage rises to Absorb + 4V. > > This makes more sense than the 6V I had in my notes (which may have meant 6V above Float.) > > With all this in mind, I think I will plan on using this feature as a backup to an AC dump load controller set to maintain Float voltage. > > > >> On 6/12/2020 7:12 AM, Jay wrote: >> Hi Mark >> >> I found this which might be of help. >> >> https://www.magnum-dimensions.com/sites/default/files/MagArchive/AN-0002-AC-Coupling-Rev-5-10.pdf >> >> Jay >> Peltz power. >> >>> On Jun 12, 2020, at 6:59 AM, Mark Frye wrote: >>> >>> Looking for confirmation from Wrenches who know Magnum inverters: >>> >>> - MS-PAE >>> >>> -ME-RC >>> >>> - Frequency shift enabled (battery type "Custom") >>> >>> - AC coupled PV inverters w/o frequency shift capability >>> >>> Function: >>> >>> At Absorb voltage frequency shift is zero, at Absorb voltage + 6 V, shift is 0.5 Hz (in 0.3 volt increments) >>> >>> This is from my notes from a tech support call, but I am wondering if I have it mixed up. Protecting at 6 volts above the Absorb seems a bit high. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Fri Jun 12 15:31:00 2020 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:31:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Frequency Shift In-Reply-To: References: <747459df-4108-8647-dd3a-c9c7f3cf4f3e@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: G'Day Mark, Which grid tied inverter are you attempting to AC couple with. I apologize if you already called it out in the thread. Christopher On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 2:01 PM Jay wrote: > Hi Mark, > > Agreed that diversion is the way to go. > As 4v above absorb volts is completely unworkable. > > But I’m not sure that I agree about .5 hz will do anything. The new rule > 21 inverters go off line at 64 hz. And there is a type of tapering based on > hz shift, but it won’t shut off a new gt inverter at+ .5hz. > > Cheers > > Jay > > > > On Jun 12, 2020, at 10:08 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > >  > > Thanks Jay, > > I talked again with Magnum. > > I have the latest Rev 6.1 MS-PAE 4448 so the exact implementation has > changed from that described in AN002, 5/10. The current Rev. has changes > designed to improve interaction with the GT inverters. I didn't really get > to the bottom of that. But the critical aspect of this remains unchanged: > > - the Magnum will have shifted the frequency by 0.5 Hz > when the DC voltage rises > to Absorb + 4V. > > This makes more sense than the 6V I had in my notes (which may have meant > 6V above Float.) > > With all this in mind, I think I will plan on using this feature as a > backup to an AC dump load controller set to maintain Float voltage. > > > On 6/12/2020 7:12 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi Mark > > I found this which might be of help. > > > https://www.magnum-dimensions.com/sites/default/files/MagArchive/AN-0002-AC-Coupling-Rev-5-10.pdf > > Jay > Peltz power. > > On Jun 12, 2020, at 6:59 AM, Mark Frye > wrote: > > Looking for confirmation from Wrenches who know Magnum inverters: > > - MS-PAE > > -ME-RC > > - Frequency shift enabled (battery type "Custom") > > - AC coupled PV inverters w/o frequency shift capability > > Function: > > At Absorb voltage frequency shift is zero, at Absorb voltage + 6 V, shift > is 0.5 Hz (in 0.3 volt increments) > > This is from my notes from a tech support call, but I am wondering if I > have it mixed up. Protecting at 6 volts above the Absorb seems a bit high. > > Thanks, > > Mark > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Fri Jun 12 16:17:19 2020 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:17:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I have an off-grid install where I was recently red-tagged by the state inspector. System is 24 volt with battery, Magnum inverters, some Magnum charge controllers, and a Morningstar charge controller. It is permitted under NEC 2017. One of the inspectors issues was that my DC- conductors to the array / rapid shut down box are black color. He wants them to be white because he says they are solidly grounded. I reason that they are only solidly grounded when they are solidly grounded. As soon as the ground fault protection breaker opens, they are floating at array voltage. I think it is misleading and unsafe to have a white conductor that can have hundreds of volts of potential on it when a breaker trips. I haven't dug into the code yet. I'm just working on the logic that one of my mentors put into me which is white wires better not have voltage potential on them. "That's the sort of sh*t that kills electricians" is what he repeatedly said ... and it's stuck with me. Thoughts? I'm backed into the corner with the state, so I will be changing them to white even if it is unsafe ... unless I have some code backing. Changing the wires to white will get interesting up on the roof. I wonder if they want me to cut off the black MC on the modules and replace them with white? This is mostly just an exercise in the State of Minnesota only wanting to know about and allow micro inverters. They brought in a state inspector from three hours away who kept repeating that he was a "highly qualified individual", but was unable to identify or recognize a charge controller. He kept referring to the charge controllers as inverters. Thanks, -James Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Fri Jun 12 16:27:34 2020 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:27:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar tracker In-Reply-To: <7F48F9F1-F74C-41BE-9F75-0AF619E55307@gmail.com> References: <7F48F9F1-F74C-41BE-9F75-0AF619E55307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00ac01d640f7$e833ffb0$b89bff10$@solarcentex.com> Sun Action Tracker. We have installed dozens. 42 x 72-cell modules Call Pete Linscomb at 210-302-2141. Please do tell him I sent him to you. Scot Arey Solar CenTex -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Friday, June 12, 2020 12:11 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar tracker Hi all I have a client who’s pretty talented. He wants to build his own dual axis solar tracker, in the 8-12 module range. I’m asking if anyone know of plans or where to get designs. I’m not asking for anyone to give free consultation help. Thanks Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jun 12 17:25:53 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 14:25:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <705776ba0edb8ba9dec62e3b07de1829@127.0.0.1> I take it he will not allow you to tape the wiring with white tape and put a warning sign on the JB? You have to do what he wants but I feel your pain. Good Luck! I would think a good electrician would measure first:) Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:17:19 -0500, James Jarvis wrote: Hello Wrenches, I have an off-grid install where I was recently red-tagged by the state inspector. System is 24 volt with battery, Magnum inverters, some Magnum charge controllers, and a Morningstar charge controller. It is permitted under NEC 2017. One of the inspectors issues was that my DC- conductors to the array / rapid shut down box are black color. He wants them to be white because he says they are solidly grounded. I reason that they are only solidly grounded when they are solidly grounded. As soon as the ground fault protection breaker opens, they are floating at array voltage. I think it is misleading and unsafe to have a white conductor that can have hundreds of volts of potential on it when a breaker trips. I haven't dug into the code yet. I'm just working on the logic that one of my mentors put into me which is white wires better not have voltage potential on them. "That's the sort of sh*t that kills electricians" is what he repeatedly said ... and it's stuck with me. Thoughts? I'm backed into the corner with the state, so I will be changing them to white even if it is unsafe ... unless I have some code backing. Changing the wires to white will get interesting up on the roof. I wonder if they want me to cut off the black MC on the modules and replace them with white? This is mostly just an exercise in the State of Minnesota only wanting to know about and allow micro inverters. They brought in a state inspector from three hours away who kept repeating that he was a "highly qualified individual", but was unable to identify or recognize a charge controller. He kept referring to the charge controllers as inverters. Thanks, -James Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ [3] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.aprsworld.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 17:44:34 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 14:44:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: James, Wrenches Traditionally we oy use black + and white - for a grounded PC system enen with RSD, Systems that are not grounded are red + and black - which can be confusing. White is associated with neutral and connected to earth, black hot and red hot and we always use either USE-ll or PV wire, in metallic conduit then stranded THWN-II wire of the same color. On Fri, Jun 12, 2020, 2:02 PM James Jarvis wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I have an off-grid install where I was recently red-tagged by the state > inspector. System is 24 volt with battery, Magnum inverters, some Magnum > charge controllers, and a Morningstar charge controller. It is permitted > under NEC 2017. > > One of the inspectors issues was that my DC- conductors to the array / > rapid shut down box are black color. He wants them to be white because he > says they are solidly grounded. I reason that they are only solidly > grounded when they are solidly grounded. As soon as the ground fault > protection breaker opens, they are floating at array voltage. I think it is > misleading and unsafe to have a white conductor that can have hundreds of > volts of potential on it when a breaker trips. > > I haven't dug into the code yet. I'm just working on the logic that one of > my mentors put into me which is white wires better not have voltage > potential on them. "That's the sort of sh*t that kills electricians" is > what he repeatedly said ... and it's stuck with me. > > Thoughts? I'm backed into the corner with the state, so I will be changing > them to white even if it is unsafe ... unless I have some code backing. > > Changing the wires to white will get interesting up on the roof. I > wonder if they want me to cut off the black MC on the modules and replace > them with white? This is mostly just an exercise in the State of Minnesota > only wanting to know about and allow micro inverters. They brought in a > state inspector from three hours away who kept repeating that he was a > "highly qualified individual", but was unable to identify or recognize a > charge controller. He kept referring to the charge controllers as > inverters. > > Thanks, > > -James Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Fri Jun 12 18:39:17 2020 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:39:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Frequency Shift In-Reply-To: References: <747459df-4108-8647-dd3a-c9c7f3cf4f3e@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Hello, I have a small array of 8 - SMA SB240 microinverters on the roof. Peak power out of the array has never exceeded 1800 W. I am adding a Magnum MS-PAE 4448 with a 315 AH flooded Lead Calcium battery bank. Cheers On 6/12/2020 12:31 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > G'Day Mark, > > Which grid tied inverter are you attempting to AC couple with. I > apologize if you already called it out in the thread. > > Christopher From bbassett2 at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 19:28:24 2020 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 16:28:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Frequency Shift In-Reply-To: References: <747459df-4108-8647-dd3a-c9c7f3cf4f3e@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Wow! Someone else with SMA SB240's, I have 12 of them that I've AC coupled to an XW+5548. They are very solid performers. Brad AEE Solar On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 3:39 PM Mark Frye wrote: > Hello, > > I have a small array of 8 - SMA SB240 microinverters on the roof. Peak > power out of the array has never exceeded 1800 W. > > I am adding a Magnum MS-PAE 4448 with a 315 AH flooded Lead Calcium > battery bank. > > Cheers > > On 6/12/2020 12:31 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > > G'Day Mark, > > > > Which grid tied inverter are you attempting to AC couple with. I > > apologize if you already called it out in the thread. > > > > Christopher > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Fri Jun 12 19:33:14 2020 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 16:33:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Frequency Shift In-Reply-To: References: <747459df-4108-8647-dd3a-c9c7f3cf4f3e@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <6a451886-834b-905d-0d8a-ef03f27be4af@berkeleysolar.com> Yes an elite group within an elite group. So the SB240 does not have frequency shift /wattage control. How are you implementing charge control in stand alone mode? On 6/12/2020 4:28 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: > Wow! Someone else with SMA SB240's, I have 12 of them that I've AC > coupled to an XW+5548. They are very solid performers. > > Brad > AEE Solar > > On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 3:39 PM Mark Frye > wrote: > > Hello, > > I have a small array of 8 - SMA SB240 microinverters on the roof. > Peak > power out of the array has never exceeded 1800 W. > > I am adding a Magnum MS-PAE 4448 with a 315 AH flooded Lead Calcium > battery bank. > > Cheers > > On 6/12/2020 12:31 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > > G'Day Mark, > > > > Which grid tied inverter are you attempting to AC couple with. I > > apologize if you already called it out in the thread. > > > > Christopher > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 21:37:54 2020 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 18:37:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Frequency Shift In-Reply-To: <6a451886-834b-905d-0d8a-ef03f27be4af@berkeleysolar.com> References: <747459df-4108-8647-dd3a-c9c7f3cf4f3e@berkeleysolar.com> <6a451886-834b-905d-0d8a-ef03f27be4af@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: I have a relay on the XW+ Aux and also frequency shift which is usually slower, so the relay usually cuts out first. I also have a DC coupled array feeding the system. Brad On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 4:34 PM Mark Frye wrote: > Yes an elite group within an elite group. > > So the SB240 does not have frequency shift /wattage control. How are you > implementing charge control in stand alone mode? > On 6/12/2020 4:28 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: > > Wow! Someone else with SMA SB240's, I have 12 of them that I've AC coupled > to an XW+5548. They are very solid performers. > > Brad > AEE Solar > > On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 3:39 PM Mark Frye wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> I have a small array of 8 - SMA SB240 microinverters on the roof. Peak >> power out of the array has never exceeded 1800 W. >> >> I am adding a Magnum MS-PAE 4448 with a 315 AH flooded Lead Calcium >> battery bank. >> >> Cheers >> >> On 6/12/2020 12:31 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: >> > G'Day Mark, >> > >> > Which grid tied inverter are you attempting to AC couple with. I >> > apologize if you already called it out in the thread. >> > >> > Christopher >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Fri Jun 12 22:09:15 2020 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:09:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Frequency Shift In-Reply-To: References: <747459df-4108-8647-dd3a-c9c7f3cf4f3e@berkeleysolar.com> <6a451886-834b-905d-0d8a-ef03f27be4af@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <31cc6262-7920-e11e-344b-1dd67a3e18b2@berkeleysolar.com> I see. What you say about the frequency shift being slow makes me again doubt the value of even using it in my application. I have a controller that can regulate the AC dump load. That same controller has a high limit switch which I could use to cut the AC feed to the GT inverters. But then both functions are in the same device. On the other hand, it is a very reliable device so....perhaps sufficient. On 6/12/2020 6:37 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: > I have a relay on the XW+ Aux and also frequency shift which is > usually slower, so the relay usually cuts out first. I also have a DC > coupled array feeding the system. > > Brad > > On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 4:34 PM Mark Frye > wrote: > > Yes an elite group within an elite group. > > So the SB240 does not have frequency shift /wattage control. How > are you implementing charge control in stand alone mode? > > On 6/12/2020 4:28 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: >> Wow! Someone else with SMA SB240's, I have 12 of them that I've >> AC coupled to an XW+5548. They are very solid performers. >> >> Brad >> AEE Solar >> >> On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 3:39 PM Mark Frye >> > wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> I have a small array of 8 - SMA SB240 microinverters on the >> roof. Peak >> power out of the array has never exceeded 1800 W. >> >> I am adding a Magnum MS-PAE 4448 with a 315 AH flooded Lead >> Calcium >> battery bank. >> >> Cheers >> >> On 6/12/2020 12:31 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: >> > G'Day Mark, >> > >> > Which grid tied inverter are you attempting to AC couple >> with. I >> > apologize if you already called it out in the thread. >> > >> > Christopher >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 22:21:43 2020 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:21:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Frequency Shift In-Reply-To: <31cc6262-7920-e11e-344b-1dd67a3e18b2@berkeleysolar.com> References: <747459df-4108-8647-dd3a-c9c7f3cf4f3e@berkeleysolar.com> <6a451886-834b-905d-0d8a-ef03f27be4af@berkeleysolar.com> <31cc6262-7920-e11e-344b-1dd67a3e18b2@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: The slow response on the frequency shift is for the XW+ only, and mine is an early model with no firmware updates since new. The XW Pro's main difference from the XW+ besides UL1741-SA is a much faster processor. I've heard that the frequency shift works quite well now, especially with UL1741-SA grid tie inverters. Brad On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 7:09 PM Mark Frye wrote: > I see. > > What you say about the frequency shift being slow makes me again doubt the > value of even using it in my application. > > I have a controller that can regulate the AC dump load. That same > controller has a high limit switch which I could use to cut the AC feed to > the GT inverters. But then both functions are in the same device. On the > other hand, it is a very reliable device so....perhaps sufficient. > On 6/12/2020 6:37 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: > > I have a relay on the XW+ Aux and also frequency shift which is usually > slower, so the relay usually cuts out first. I also have a DC coupled array > feeding the system. > > Brad > > On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 4:34 PM Mark Frye wrote: > >> Yes an elite group within an elite group. >> >> So the SB240 does not have frequency shift /wattage control. How are you >> implementing charge control in stand alone mode? >> On 6/12/2020 4:28 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: >> >> Wow! Someone else with SMA SB240's, I have 12 of them that I've AC >> coupled to an XW+5548. They are very solid performers. >> >> Brad >> AEE Solar >> >> On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 3:39 PM Mark Frye >> wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> I have a small array of 8 - SMA SB240 microinverters on the roof. Peak >>> power out of the array has never exceeded 1800 W. >>> >>> I am adding a Magnum MS-PAE 4448 with a 315 AH flooded Lead Calcium >>> battery bank. >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> On 6/12/2020 12:31 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: >>> > G'Day Mark, >>> > >>> > Which grid tied inverter are you attempting to AC couple with. I >>> > apologize if you already called it out in the thread. >>> > >>> > Christopher >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 22:27:43 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:27:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Frequency Shift In-Reply-To: <31cc6262-7920-e11e-344b-1dd67a3e18b2@berkeleysolar.com> References: <31cc6262-7920-e11e-344b-1dd67a3e18b2@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <138E5AC9-D31D-49D4-BBAF-C5C12BA3631E@gmail.com> Hi Mark Is this off grid or on? Jay > On Jun 12, 2020, at 7:09 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > >  > I see. > > What you say about the frequency shift being slow makes me again doubt the value of even using it in my application. > > I have a controller that can regulate the AC dump load. That same controller has a high limit switch which I could use to cut the AC feed to the GT inverters. But then both functions are in the same device. On the other hand, it is a very reliable device so....perhaps sufficient. > > On 6/12/2020 6:37 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: >> I have a relay on the XW+ Aux and also frequency shift which is usually slower, so the relay usually cuts out first. I also have a DC coupled array feeding the system. >> >> Brad >> >> On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 4:34 PM Mark Frye wrote: >>> Yes an elite group within an elite group. >>> >>> So the SB240 does not have frequency shift /wattage control. How are you implementing charge control in stand alone mode? >>> >>> On 6/12/2020 4:28 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: >>>> Wow! Someone else with SMA SB240's, I have 12 of them that I've AC coupled to an XW+5548. They are very solid performers. >>>> >>>> Brad >>>> AEE Solar >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 3:39 PM Mark Frye wrote: >>>>> Hello, >>>>> >>>>> I have a small array of 8 - SMA SB240 microinverters on the roof. Peak >>>>> power out of the array has never exceeded 1800 W. >>>>> >>>>> I am adding a Magnum MS-PAE 4448 with a 315 AH flooded Lead Calcium >>>>> battery bank. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers >>>>> >>>>> On 6/12/2020 12:31 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: >>>>> > G'Day Mark, >>>>> > >>>>> > Which grid tied inverter are you attempting to AC couple with. I >>>>> > apologize if you already called it out in the thread. >>>>> > >>>>> > Christopher >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sat Jun 13 10:05:35 2020 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 07:05:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Frequency Shift In-Reply-To: <138E5AC9-D31D-49D4-BBAF-C5C12BA3631E@gmail.com> References: <31cc6262-7920-e11e-344b-1dd67a3e18b2@berkeleysolar.com> <138E5AC9-D31D-49D4-BBAF-C5C12BA3631E@gmail.com> Message-ID: On. On 6/12/2020 7:27 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi Mark > > Is this off grid or on? > > Jay > >> On Jun 12, 2020, at 7:09 PM, Mark Frye wrote: >> >>  >> >> I see. >> >> What you say about the frequency shift being slow makes me again >> doubt the value of even using it in my application. >> >> I have a controller that can regulate the AC dump load. That same >> controller has a high limit switch which I could use to cut the AC >> feed to the GT inverters. But then both functions are in the same >> device. On the other hand, it is a very reliable device so....perhaps >> sufficient. >> >> On 6/12/2020 6:37 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: >>> I have a relay on the XW+ Aux and also frequency shift which is >>> usually slower, so the relay usually cuts out first. I also have a >>> DC coupled array feeding the system. >>> >>> Brad >>> >>> On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 4:34 PM Mark Frye >> > wrote: >>> >>> Yes an elite group within an elite group. >>> >>> So the SB240 does not have frequency shift /wattage control. How >>> are you implementing charge control in stand alone mode? >>> >>> On 6/12/2020 4:28 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: >>>> Wow! Someone else with SMA SB240's, I have 12 of them that I've >>>> AC coupled to an XW+5548. They are very solid performers. >>>> >>>> Brad >>>> AEE Solar >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 3:39 PM Mark Frye >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> I have a small array of 8 - SMA SB240 microinverters on the >>>> roof. Peak >>>> power out of the array has never exceeded 1800 W. >>>> >>>> I am adding a Magnum MS-PAE 4448 with a 315 AH flooded Lead >>>> Calcium >>>> battery bank. >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> >>>> On 6/12/2020 12:31 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: >>>> > G'Day Mark, >>>> > >>>> > Which grid tied inverter are you attempting to AC couple >>>> with. I >>>> > apologize if you already called it out in the thread. >>>> > >>>> > Christopher >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 10:46:03 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 07:46:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Frequency Shift In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <203181AA-1A23-4EA8-8344-88A83DF23B91@gmail.com> Hi Mark, Then the relay method is easy and reliable to use. Relay trips at whatever battery voltage you don’t want to exceed. I use a solid state relay with a good heat sink, only switching one leg. Jay > On Jun 13, 2020, at 7:05 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > >  > On. > >> On 6/12/2020 7:27 PM, Jay wrote: >> Hi Mark >> >> Is this off grid or on? >> >> Jay >> >>> On Jun 12, 2020, at 7:09 PM, Mark Frye wrote: >>> >>>  >>> I see. >>> >>> What you say about the frequency shift being slow makes me again doubt the value of even using it in my application. >>> >>> I have a controller that can regulate the AC dump load. That same controller has a high limit switch which I could use to cut the AC feed to the GT inverters. But then both functions are in the same device. On the other hand, it is a very reliable device so....perhaps sufficient. >>> >>> On 6/12/2020 6:37 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: >>>> I have a relay on the XW+ Aux and also frequency shift which is usually slower, so the relay usually cuts out first. I also have a DC coupled array feeding the system. >>>> >>>> Brad >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 4:34 PM Mark Frye wrote: >>>>> Yes an elite group within an elite group. >>>>> >>>>> So the SB240 does not have frequency shift /wattage control. How are you implementing charge control in stand alone mode? >>>>> >>>>>> On 6/12/2020 4:28 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: >>>>>> Wow! Someone else with SMA SB240's, I have 12 of them that I've AC coupled to an XW+5548. They are very solid performers. >>>>>> >>>>>> Brad >>>>>> AEE Solar >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 3:39 PM Mark Frye wrote: >>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have a small array of 8 - SMA SB240 microinverters on the roof. Peak >>>>>>> power out of the array has never exceeded 1800 W. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am adding a Magnum MS-PAE 4448 with a 315 AH flooded Lead Calcium >>>>>>> battery bank. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 6/12/2020 12:31 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: >>>>>>> > G'Day Mark, >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Which grid tied inverter are you attempting to AC couple with. I >>>>>>> > apologize if you already called it out in the thread. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Christopher >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sat Jun 13 18:05:16 2020 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 15:05:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Frequency Shift In-Reply-To: <203181AA-1A23-4EA8-8344-88A83DF23B91@gmail.com> References: <203181AA-1A23-4EA8-8344-88A83DF23B91@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0c208e4d-4f2d-108e-c7e6-c9c4ccb22b68@berkeleysolar.com> Jay, Do you use an NO or NC solid state relay? Mark On 6/13/2020 7:46 AM, Jay wrote: > Hi Mark, > > Then the relay method is easy and reliable to use. > > Relay trips at whatever battery voltage you don’t want to exceed. > > I use a solid state relay with a good heat sink, only switching one leg. > > Jay > > > > > > >> On Jun 13, 2020, at 7:05 AM, Mark Frye wrote: >> >>  >> >> On. >> >> On 6/12/2020 7:27 PM, Jay wrote: >>> Hi Mark >>> >>> Is this off grid or on? >>> >>> Jay >>> >>>> On Jun 12, 2020, at 7:09 PM, Mark Frye wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> >>>> I see. >>>> >>>> What you say about the frequency shift being slow makes me again >>>> doubt the value of even using it in my application. >>>> >>>> I have a controller that can regulate the AC dump load. That same >>>> controller has a high limit switch which I could use to cut the AC >>>> feed to the GT inverters. But then both functions are in the same >>>> device. On the other hand, it is a very reliable device >>>> so....perhaps sufficient. >>>> >>>> On 6/12/2020 6:37 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: >>>>> I have a relay on the XW+ Aux and also frequency shift which is >>>>> usually slower, so the relay usually cuts out first. I also have a >>>>> DC coupled array feeding the system. >>>>> >>>>> Brad >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 4:34 PM Mark Frye >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Yes an elite group within an elite group. >>>>> >>>>> So the SB240 does not have frequency shift /wattage control. >>>>> How are you implementing charge control in stand alone mode? >>>>> >>>>> On 6/12/2020 4:28 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: >>>>>> Wow! Someone else with SMA SB240's, I have 12 of them that >>>>>> I've AC coupled to an XW+5548. They are very solid performers. >>>>>> >>>>>> Brad >>>>>> AEE Solar >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 3:39 PM Mark Frye >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello, >>>>>> >>>>>> I have a small array of 8 - SMA SB240 microinverters on >>>>>> the roof. Peak >>>>>> power out of the array has never exceeded 1800 W. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am adding a Magnum MS-PAE 4448 with a 315 AH flooded >>>>>> Lead Calcium >>>>>> battery bank. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers >>>>>> >>>>>> On 6/12/2020 12:31 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: >>>>>> > G'Day Mark, >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Which grid tied inverter are you attempting to AC >>>>>> couple with. I >>>>>> > apologize if you already called it out in the thread. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Christopher >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Sat Jun 13 18:05:25 2020 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (greg egan) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 14:05:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jim, Hope all is well with you and yours. on white wires in circuits, In 3 ph. circuits you can get killed breaking into a neutral that's common to other circuits. One example, working on 277 lighting, you throw the breaker or light switch on the one circuit you're working so the hot isn't hot anymore. It's standard practice for 3 ph. lighting ckts to share a neutral. The white wire in your ckt is wire nutted in the j-box up in the ceiling to the common neutrals. Those neutrals are hot to ground when their respective ckts are hot and they're carrying current. Just thought it was worth mentioning on this list that there's no hard fast rule that all white wires are dead. It depends on the ckt. Best, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. Message: 11 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:17:19 -0500 From: James Jarvis To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hello Wrenches, I have an off-grid install where I was recently red-tagged by the state inspector. System is 24 volt with battery, Magnum inverters, some Magnum charge controllers, and a Morningstar charge controller. It is permitted under NEC 2017. One of the inspectors issues was that my DC- conductors to the array / rapid shut down box are black color. He wants them to be white because he says they are solidly grounded. I reason that they are only solidly grounded when they are solidly grounded. As soon as the ground fault protection breaker opens, they are floating at array voltage. I think it is misleading and unsafe to have a white conductor that can have hundreds of volts of potential on it when a breaker trips. I haven't dug into the code yet. I'm just working on the logic that one of my mentors put into me which is white wires better not have voltage potential on them. "That's the sort of sh*t that kills electricians" is what he repeatedly said ... and it's stuck with me. Thoughts? I'm backed into the corner with the state, so I will be changing them to white even if it is unsafe ... unless I have some code backing. Changing the wires to white will get interesting up on the roof. I wonder if they want me to cut off the black MC on the modules and replace them with white? This is mostly just an exercise in the State of Minnesota only wanting to know about and allow micro inverters. They brought in a state inspector from three hours away who kept repeating that he was a "highly qualified individual", but was unable to identify or recognize a charge controller. He kept referring to the charge controllers as inverters. Thanks, -James Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Sat Jun 13 18:40:55 2020 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 15:40:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7E645BA8-2115-4FF3-A84D-D9B707D7494F@solarenergy.org> Change in 2017 to “functional grounded” was to clarify this - it’s not solid when it is thru a fuse or breaker than can be interrupted either in the event of a ground-fault or if the breaker is intentionally opened. 2017 makes it clear that there are very few solidly grounded systems (2 or less PV source circuits, not touching a building the only case it is allowed). Pardon any incorrect language as I don’t have my code book, but I do think the 2017 NEC® makes it very clear, including in the definition of function grounded, that those conductors cannot be white or gray, regardless of if the system has a transformer-based or TL inverter or a CC with integrated or an external GF breaker/fuse. Brian > On Jun 13, 2020, at 3:05 PM, greg egan wrote: > > Jim, Hope all is well with you and yours. on white wires in circuits, In 3 ph. circuits you can get killed breaking into a neutral that's common to other circuits. One example, working on 277 lighting, you throw the breaker or light switch on the one circuit you're working so the hot isn't hot anymore. It's standard practice for 3 ph. lighting ckts to share a neutral. The white wire in your ckt is wire nutted in the j-box up in the ceiling to the common neutrals. Those neutrals are hot to ground when their respective ckts are hot and they're carrying current. > > Just thought it was worth mentioning on this list that there's no hard fast rule that all white wires are dead. It depends on the ckt. > > Best, > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > > > Message: 11 > Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:17:19 -0500 > From: James Jarvis > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hello Wrenches, > > I have an off-grid install where I was recently red-tagged by the state > inspector. System is 24 volt with battery, Magnum inverters, some Magnum > charge controllers, and a Morningstar charge controller. It is permitted > under NEC 2017. > > One of the inspectors issues was that my DC- conductors to the array / > rapid shut down box are black color. He wants them to be white because he > says they are solidly grounded. I reason that they are only solidly > grounded when they are solidly grounded. As soon as the ground fault > protection breaker opens, they are floating at array voltage. I think it is > misleading and unsafe to have a white conductor that can have hundreds of > volts of potential on it when a breaker trips. > > I haven't dug into the code yet. I'm just working on the logic that one of > my mentors put into me which is white wires better not have voltage > potential on them. "That's the sort of sh*t that kills electricians" is > what he repeatedly said ... and it's stuck with me. > > Thoughts? I'm backed into the corner with the state, so I will be changing > them to white even if it is unsafe ... unless I have some code backing. > > Changing the wires to white will get interesting up on the roof. I > wonder if they want me to cut off the black MC on the modules and replace > them with white? This is mostly just an exercise in the State of Minnesota > only wanting to know about and allow micro inverters. They brought in a > state inspector from three hours away who kept repeating that he was a > "highly qualified individual", but was unable to identify or recognize a > charge controller. He kept referring to the charge controllers as > inverters. > > Thanks, > > -James Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jj at aprsworld.com Sat Jun 13 20:56:21 2020 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 19:56:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker In-Reply-To: <7E645BA8-2115-4FF3-A84D-D9B707D7494F@solarenergy.org> References: <7E645BA8-2115-4FF3-A84D-D9B707D7494F@solarenergy.org> Message-ID: Brian, thank you very much. With your hint of "functional ground" I can clearly see that I am not allowed to have those be white wires. Now time for me to incur the full wrath by daring to question the infinite wisdom of the "highly qualified individual" from the state. (all kinds of fun stuff from this guy. Got another violation for having a donut type current transformer over a line voltage wire. He said that wasn't allowed.) Thank you, -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 (Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.) On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 17:41 Brian Mehalic wrote: > Change in 2017 to “functional grounded” was to clarify this - it’s not > solid when it is thru a fuse or breaker than can be interrupted either in > the event of a ground-fault or if the breaker is intentionally opened. 2017 > makes it clear that there are very few solidly grounded systems (2 or less > PV source circuits, not touching a building the only case it is allowed). > Pardon any incorrect language as I don’t have my code book, but I do think > the 2017 NEC® makes it very clear, including in the definition of function > grounded, that those conductors cannot be white or gray, regardless of if > the system has a transformer-based or TL inverter or a CC with integrated > or an external GF breaker/fuse. > > Brian > > > On Jun 13, 2020, at 3:05 PM, greg egan wrote: > > > > Jim, Hope all is well with you and yours. on white wires in circuits, > In 3 ph. circuits you can get killed breaking into a neutral that's common > to other circuits. One example, working on 277 lighting, you throw the > breaker or light switch on the one circuit you're working so the hot isn't > hot anymore. It's standard practice for 3 ph. lighting ckts to share a > neutral. The white wire in your ckt is wire nutted in the j-box up in the > ceiling to the common neutrals. Those neutrals are hot to ground when > their respective ckts are hot and they're carrying current. > > > > Just thought it was worth mentioning on this list that there's no hard > fast rule that all white wires are dead. It depends on the ckt. > > > > Best, > > Greg Egan > > Remote Power Inc. > > > > > > Message: 11 > > Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:17:19 -0500 > > From: James Jarvis > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > I have an off-grid install where I was recently red-tagged by the state > > inspector. System is 24 volt with battery, Magnum inverters, some Magnum > > charge controllers, and a Morningstar charge controller. It is permitted > > under NEC 2017. > > > > One of the inspectors issues was that my DC- conductors to the array / > > rapid shut down box are black color. He wants them to be white because he > > says they are solidly grounded. I reason that they are only solidly > > grounded when they are solidly grounded. As soon as the ground fault > > protection breaker opens, they are floating at array voltage. I think it > is > > misleading and unsafe to have a white conductor that can have hundreds of > > volts of potential on it when a breaker trips. > > > > I haven't dug into the code yet. I'm just working on the logic that one > of > > my mentors put into me which is white wires better not have voltage > > potential on them. "That's the sort of sh*t that kills electricians" is > > what he repeatedly said ... and it's stuck with me. > > > > Thoughts? I'm backed into the corner with the state, so I will be > changing > > them to white even if it is unsafe ... unless I have some code backing. > > > > Changing the wires to white will get interesting up on the roof. I > > wonder if they want me to cut off the black MC on the modules and replace > > them with white? This is mostly just an exercise in the State of > Minnesota > > only wanting to know about and allow micro inverters. They brought in a > > state inspector from three hours away who kept repeating that he was a > > "highly qualified individual", but was unable to identify or recognize a > > charge controller. He kept referring to the charge controllers as > > inverters. > > > > Thanks, > > > > -James Jarvis > > APRS World, LLC > > +1-507-454-2727 > > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL:< > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20200612/5cd338c8/attachment-0001.html > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Sat Jun 13 21:21:55 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 18:21:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker In-Reply-To: References: <7E645BA8-2115-4FF3-A84D-D9B707D7494F@solarenergy.org> Message-ID: James, Here's the code reference: 2017 690.31(B)(1). Only solidly grounded PV system conductors shall be marked in accordance with 200.6 (white or gray). Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 6/13/2020 5:56 PM, James Jarvis wrote: > Brian, thank you very much. With your hint of "functional ground" I > can clearly see that I am not allowed to have those be white wires. > > Now time for me to incur the full wrath by daring to question the > infinite wisdom of the "highly qualified individual" from the state. > > (all kinds of fun stuff from this guy. Got another violation for > having a donut type current transformer over a line voltage wire. He > said that wasn't allowed.) > > Thank you, > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > > (Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.) > > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 17:41 Brian Mehalic > wrote: > > Change in 2017 to “functional grounded” was to clarify this - it’s > not solid when it is thru a fuse or breaker than can be > interrupted either in the event of a ground-fault or if the > breaker is intentionally opened. 2017 makes it clear that there > are very few solidly grounded systems (2 or less PV source > circuits, not touching a building the only case it is allowed). > Pardon any incorrect language as I don’t have my code book, but I > do think the 2017 NEC® makes it very clear, including in the > definition of function grounded, that those conductors cannot be > white or gray, regardless of if the system has a transformer-based > or TL inverter or a CC with integrated or an external GF > breaker/fuse. > > Brian > > > On Jun 13, 2020, at 3:05 PM, greg egan > wrote: > > > > Jim,  Hope all is well with you and yours.  on white wires in > circuits, In 3 ph. circuits you can get killed breaking into a > neutral that's common to other circuits.  One example, working on > 277 lighting, you throw the breaker or light switch on the one > circuit you're working so the hot isn't hot anymore.  It's > standard practice for 3 ph. lighting ckts to share a neutral.  The > white wire in your ckt is wire nutted in the j-box up in the > ceiling to the common neutrals. Those neutrals are hot to ground > when their respective ckts are hot and they're carrying current. > > > > Just thought it was worth mentioning on this list that there's > no hard fast rule that all white wires are dead.  It depends on > the ckt. > > > > Best, > > Greg Egan > > Remote Power Inc. > > > > > > Message: 11 > > Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:17:19 -0500 > > From: James Jarvis> > > To: RE-wrenches > > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker > > Message-ID: > >    > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > I have an off-grid install where I was recently red-tagged by > the state > > inspector. System is 24 volt with battery, Magnum inverters, > some Magnum > > charge controllers, and a Morningstar charge controller. It is > permitted > > under NEC 2017. > > > > One of the inspectors issues was that my DC- conductors to the > array / > > rapid shut down box are black color. He wants them to be white > because he > > says they are solidly grounded. I reason that they are only solidly > > grounded when they are solidly grounded. As soon as the ground fault > > protection breaker opens, they are floating at array voltage. I > think it is > > misleading and unsafe to have a white conductor that can have > hundreds of > > volts of potential on it when a breaker trips. > > > > I haven't dug into the code yet. I'm just working on the logic > that one of > > my mentors put into me which is white wires better not have voltage > > potential on them. "That's the sort of sh*t that kills > electricians" is > > what he repeatedly said ... and it's stuck with me. > > > > Thoughts? I'm backed into the corner with the state, so I will > be changing > > them to white even if it is unsafe ... unless I have some code > backing. > > > > Changing the wires to white will get interesting up on the > roof. I > > wonder if they want me to cut off the black MC on the modules > and replace > > them with white? This is mostly just an exercise in the State of > Minnesota > > only wanting to know about and allow micro inverters. They > brought in a > > state inspector from three hours away who kept repeating that he > was a > > "highly qualified individual", but was unable to identify or > recognize a > > charge controller. He kept referring to the charge controllers as > > inverters. > > > > Thanks, > > > > -James Jarvis > > APRS World, LLC > > +1-507-454-2727 > > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > URL: > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 01:11:40 2020 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 00:11:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Floatovoltaics Message-ID: I am curious if any Wrenches have experience with floating array (aka "floatovoltaic") systems? From the limited research I have done, there only appear to be a handful of solutions providers - mostly based in Europe or Asia. I'd be interested to hear any testimonies - good or bad - about your experiences with the equipment and/or installation process. -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 01:25:20 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 22:25:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Floatovoltaics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have an opportunity to inspect one in California and there was alot wear and tear considering time in use. I believe it was due to water level fluctuations and movement. On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 10:11 PM Corey Shalanski wrote: > I am curious if any Wrenches have experience with floating array (aka > "floatovoltaic") systems? From the limited research I have done, there only > appear to be a handful of solutions providers - mostly based in Europe or > Asia. I'd be interested to hear any testimonies - good or bad - about your > experiences with the equipment and/or installation process. > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 08:08:27 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 06:08:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker In-Reply-To: References: <7E645BA8-2115-4FF3-A84D-D9B707D7494F@solarenergy.org> Message-ID: James, I might open the ground fault breaker and show him with the ohmmeter that this is not a solidly grounded system. You are absolutely correct with this and if he gets tough just let him know you need him to sign off personally that you had informed him of this exact code reference. Or he may sign off from the office... On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 7:21 PM Kent Osterberg wrote: > James, > > Here's the code reference: 2017 690.31(B)(1). Only solidly grounded PV > system conductors shall be marked in accordance with 200.6 (white or gray). > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 6/13/2020 5:56 PM, James Jarvis wrote: > > Brian, thank you very much. With your hint of "functional ground" I can > clearly see that I am not allowed to have those be white wires. > > Now time for me to incur the full wrath by daring to question the infinite > wisdom of the "highly qualified individual" from the state. > > (all kinds of fun stuff from this guy. Got another violation for having a > donut type current transformer over a line voltage wire. He said that > wasn't allowed.) > > Thank you, > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > > (Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.) > > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 17:41 Brian Mehalic wrote: > >> Change in 2017 to “functional grounded” was to clarify this - it’s not >> solid when it is thru a fuse or breaker than can be interrupted either in >> the event of a ground-fault or if the breaker is intentionally opened. 2017 >> makes it clear that there are very few solidly grounded systems (2 or less >> PV source circuits, not touching a building the only case it is allowed). >> Pardon any incorrect language as I don’t have my code book, but I do think >> the 2017 NEC® makes it very clear, including in the definition of function >> grounded, that those conductors cannot be white or gray, regardless of if >> the system has a transformer-based or TL inverter or a CC with integrated >> or an external GF breaker/fuse. >> >> Brian >> >> > On Jun 13, 2020, at 3:05 PM, greg egan wrote: >> > >> > Jim, Hope all is well with you and yours. on white wires in >> circuits, In 3 ph. circuits you can get killed breaking into a neutral >> that's common to other circuits. One example, working on 277 lighting, you >> throw the breaker or light switch on the one circuit you're working so the >> hot isn't hot anymore. It's standard practice for 3 ph. lighting ckts to >> share a neutral. The white wire in your ckt is wire nutted in the j-box up >> in the ceiling to the common neutrals. Those neutrals are hot to ground >> when their respective ckts are hot and they're carrying current. >> > >> > Just thought it was worth mentioning on this list that there's no hard >> fast rule that all white wires are dead. It depends on the ckt. >> > >> > Best, >> > Greg Egan >> > Remote Power Inc. >> > >> > >> > Message: 11 >> > Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:17:19 -0500 >> > From: James Jarvis >> > To: RE-wrenches >> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker >> > Message-ID: >> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> > >> > Hello Wrenches, >> > >> > I have an off-grid install where I was recently red-tagged by the state >> > inspector. System is 24 volt with battery, Magnum inverters, some Magnum >> > charge controllers, and a Morningstar charge controller. It is permitted >> > under NEC 2017. >> > >> > One of the inspectors issues was that my DC- conductors to the array / >> > rapid shut down box are black color. He wants them to be white because >> he >> > says they are solidly grounded. I reason that they are only solidly >> > grounded when they are solidly grounded. As soon as the ground fault >> > protection breaker opens, they are floating at array voltage. I think >> it is >> > misleading and unsafe to have a white conductor that can have hundreds >> of >> > volts of potential on it when a breaker trips. >> > >> > I haven't dug into the code yet. I'm just working on the logic that one >> of >> > my mentors put into me which is white wires better not have voltage >> > potential on them. "That's the sort of sh*t that kills electricians" is >> > what he repeatedly said ... and it's stuck with me. >> > >> > Thoughts? I'm backed into the corner with the state, so I will be >> changing >> > them to white even if it is unsafe ... unless I have some code backing. >> > >> > Changing the wires to white will get interesting up on the roof. I >> > wonder if they want me to cut off the black MC on the modules and >> replace >> > them with white? This is mostly just an exercise in the State of >> Minnesota >> > only wanting to know about and allow micro inverters. They brought in a >> > state inspector from three hours away who kept repeating that he was a >> > "highly qualified individual", but was unable to identify or recognize a >> > charge controller. He kept referring to the charge controllers as >> > inverters. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > -James Jarvis >> > APRS World, LLC >> > +1-507-454-2727 >> > http://www.aprsworld.com/ >> > -------------- next part -------------- >> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> > URL:< >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20200612/5cd338c8/attachment-0001.html >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Jun 14 10:29:59 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 07:29:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Floatovoltaics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9b774fb1965036b83d9f833c9e482387@127.0.0.1> I know both Schneider mppt's can be negative, positive, or ungrounded. Others must do this also. Is that what you are asking? They work as expected as far as I have seen. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 14 Jun 2020 00:11:40 -0500, Corey Shalanski wrote: I am curious if any Wrenches have experience with floating array (aka "floatovoltaic") systems? From the limited research I have done, there only appear to be a handful of solutions providers - mostly based in Europe or Asia. I'd be interested to hear any testimonies - good or bad - about your experiences with the equipment and/or installation process. -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Mon Jun 15 13:16:20 2020 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 11:16:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker In-Reply-To: References: <7E645BA8-2115-4FF3-A84D-D9B707D7494F@solarenergy.org> Message-ID: <070A5C4B-0017-43A9-84D9-245E2ABEE2F2@skyfireenergy.com> James, where is the CT located? If it’s in a panelboard/loadcenter, I understand that they are not “certified” to allow CT’s inside.... so the work-around is to pass the conductors thru a jbox before the panelboard and locate the CTs there. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 > On Jun 14, 2020, at 6:08 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > James, > > I might open the ground fault breaker and show him with the ohmmeter that this is not a solidly grounded system. You are absolutely correct with this and if he gets tough just let him know you need him to sign off personally that you had informed him of this exact code reference. Or he may sign off from the office... > >> On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 7:21 PM Kent Osterberg wrote: >> James, >> >> Here's the code reference: 2017 690.31(B)(1). Only solidly grounded PV system conductors shall be marked in accordance with 200.6 (white or gray). >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> >>> On 6/13/2020 5:56 PM, James Jarvis wrote: >>> Brian, thank you very much. With your hint of "functional ground" I can clearly see that I am not allowed to have those be white wires. >>> >>> Now time for me to incur the full wrath by daring to question the infinite wisdom of the "highly qualified individual" from the state. >>> >>> (all kinds of fun stuff from this guy. Got another violation for having a donut type current transformer over a line voltage wire. He said that wasn't allowed.) >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> -James Jefferson Jarvis >>> APRS World, LLC >>> +1-507-454-2727 >>> >>> (Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.) >>> >>>> On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 17:41 Brian Mehalic wrote: >>>> Change in 2017 to “functional grounded” was to clarify this - it’s not solid when it is thru a fuse or breaker than can be interrupted either in the event of a ground-fault or if the breaker is intentionally opened. 2017 makes it clear that there are very few solidly grounded systems (2 or less PV source circuits, not touching a building the only case it is allowed). Pardon any incorrect language as I don’t have my code book, but I do think the 2017 NEC® makes it very clear, including in the definition of function grounded, that those conductors cannot be white or gray, regardless of if the system has a transformer-based or TL inverter or a CC with integrated or an external GF breaker/fuse. >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> > On Jun 13, 2020, at 3:05 PM, greg egan wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Jim, Hope all is well with you and yours. on white wires in circuits, In 3 ph. circuits you can get killed breaking into a neutral that's common to other circuits. One example, working on 277 lighting, you throw the breaker or light switch on the one circuit you're working so the hot isn't hot anymore. It's standard practice for 3 ph. lighting ckts to share a neutral. The white wire in your ckt is wire nutted in the j-box up in the ceiling to the common neutrals. Those neutrals are hot to ground when their respective ckts are hot and they're carrying current. >>>> > >>>> > Just thought it was worth mentioning on this list that there's no hard fast rule that all white wires are dead. It depends on the ckt. >>>> > >>>> > Best, >>>> > Greg Egan >>>> > Remote Power Inc. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Message: 11 >>>> > Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:17:19 -0500 >>>> > From: James Jarvis >>>> > To: RE-wrenches >>>> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker >>>> > Message-ID: >>>> > >>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>> > >>>> > Hello Wrenches, >>>> > >>>> > I have an off-grid install where I was recently red-tagged by the state >>>> > inspector. System is 24 volt with battery, Magnum inverters, some Magnum >>>> > charge controllers, and a Morningstar charge controller. It is permitted >>>> > under NEC 2017. >>>> > >>>> > One of the inspectors issues was that my DC- conductors to the array / >>>> > rapid shut down box are black color. He wants them to be white because he >>>> > says they are solidly grounded. I reason that they are only solidly >>>> > grounded when they are solidly grounded. As soon as the ground fault >>>> > protection breaker opens, they are floating at array voltage. I think it is >>>> > misleading and unsafe to have a white conductor that can have hundreds of >>>> > volts of potential on it when a breaker trips. >>>> > >>>> > I haven't dug into the code yet. I'm just working on the logic that one of >>>> > my mentors put into me which is white wires better not have voltage >>>> > potential on them. "That's the sort of sh*t that kills electricians" is >>>> > what he repeatedly said ... and it's stuck with me. >>>> > >>>> > Thoughts? I'm backed into the corner with the state, so I will be changing >>>> > them to white even if it is unsafe ... unless I have some code backing. >>>> > >>>> > Changing the wires to white will get interesting up on the roof. I >>>> > wonder if they want me to cut off the black MC on the modules and replace >>>> > them with white? This is mostly just an exercise in the State of Minnesota >>>> > only wanting to know about and allow micro inverters. They brought in a >>>> > state inspector from three hours away who kept repeating that he was a >>>> > "highly qualified individual", but was unable to identify or recognize a >>>> > charge controller. He kept referring to the charge controllers as >>>> > inverters. >>>> > >>>> > Thanks, >>>> > >>>> > -James Jarvis >>>> > APRS World, LLC >>>> > +1-507-454-2727 >>>> > http://www.aprsworld.com/ >>>> > -------------- next part -------------- >>>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>> > URL: >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> > >>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> > >>>> > List rules & etiquette: >>>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> > >>>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 14:15:42 2020 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 13:15:42 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Floatovoltaics Message-ID: Hi Dave, I was actually referring to a growing trend in the PV industry (particularly in Asia) to attach PV arrays - and also inverters in some cases - to floating pontoons and then install them on bodies of water. The systems are often referred to as floating PV (FPV) or "floatovoltaics". Here's an NREL link which provides further information about the concept: https://www.nrel.gov/news/press/2018/nrel-details-great-potential-for-floating-pv-systems.html -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica On Sun, 14 Jun 2020 07:30:14 -0700, Dave Angelini wrote: > > I know both Schneider mppt's can be negative, positive, or ungrounded. > Others must do this also. Is that what you are asking? > > They work as > expected as far as I have seen. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Jun 15 15:24:00 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 12:24:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17944884-BAF8-47C4-90F1-E5D5CF632762@millersolar.com> Wrenches: Well now that the NFPA has acknowledged that GFDI protected circuits do not solidly ground the “grounded“ conductor, and we know they can’t be white in color, it begs the next question: Should these sort-of-grounded grounded conductors be switched and over-current protected? The manual for the Schneider charge controller shows the negative (or referenced) switched on one page and not switched on another. Outback FM 100 manual shows the negative not switched. Anyone have an argument either way? William Miller www.millersolar.com > On Jun 13, 2020, at 6:21 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote: > >  James, > > Here's the code reference: 2017 690.31(B)(1). Only solidly grounded PV system conductors shall be marked in accordance with 200.6 (white or gray). > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 6/13/2020 5:56 PM, James Jarvis wrote: >> Brian, thank you very much. With your hint of "functional ground" I can clearly see that I am not allowed to have those be white wires. >> >> Now time for me to incur the full wrath by daring to question the infinite wisdom of the "highly qualified individual" from the state. >> >> (all kinds of fun stuff from this guy. Got another violation for having a donut type current transformer over a line voltage wire. He said that wasn't allowed.) >> >> Thank you, >> >> -James Jefferson Jarvis >> APRS World, LLC >> +1-507-454-2727 >> >> (Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.) >> >> On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 17:41 Brian Mehalic wrote: >>> Change in 2017 to “functional grounded” was to clarify this - it’s not solid when it is thru a fuse or breaker than can be interrupted either in the event of a ground-fault or if the breaker is intentionally opened. 2017 makes it clear that there are very few solidly grounded systems (2 or less PV source circuits, not touching a building the only case it is allowed). Pardon any incorrect language as I don’t have my code book, but I do think the 2017 NEC® makes it very clear, including in the definition of function grounded, that those conductors cannot be white or gray, regardless of if the system has a transformer-based or TL inverter or a CC with integrated or an external GF breaker/fuse. >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> > On Jun 13, 2020, at 3:05 PM, greg egan wrote: >>> > >>> > Jim, Hope all is well with you and yours. on white wires in circuits, In 3 ph. circuits you can get killed breaking into a neutral that's common to other circuits. One example, working on 277 lighting, you throw the breaker or light switch on the one circuit you're working so the hot isn't hot anymore. It's standard practice for 3 ph. lighting ckts to share a neutral. The white wire in your ckt is wire nutted in the j-box up in the ceiling to the common neutrals. Those neutrals are hot to ground when their respective ckts are hot and they're carrying current. >>> > >>> > Just thought it was worth mentioning on this list that there's no hard fast rule that all white wires are dead. It depends on the ckt. >>> > >>> > Best, >>> > Greg Egan >>> > Remote Power Inc. >>> > >>> > >>> > Message: 11 >>> > Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:17:19 -0500 >>> > From: James Jarvis >>> > To: RE-wrenches >>> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker >>> > Message-ID: >>> > >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> > >>> > Hello Wrenches, >>> > >>> > I have an off-grid install where I was recently red-tagged by the state >>> > inspector. System is 24 volt with battery, Magnum inverters, some Magnum >>> > charge controllers, and a Morningstar charge controller. It is permitted >>> > under NEC 2017. >>> > >>> > One of the inspectors issues was that my DC- conductors to the array / >>> > rapid shut down box are black color. He wants them to be white because he >>> > says they are solidly grounded. I reason that they are only solidly >>> > grounded when they are solidly grounded. As soon as the ground fault >>> > protection breaker opens, they are floating at array voltage. I think it is >>> > misleading and unsafe to have a white conductor that can have hundreds of >>> > volts of potential on it when a breaker trips. >>> > >>> > I haven't dug into the code yet. I'm just working on the logic that one of >>> > my mentors put into me which is white wires better not have voltage >>> > potential on them. "That's the sort of sh*t that kills electricians" is >>> > what he repeatedly said ... and it's stuck with me. >>> > >>> > Thoughts? I'm backed into the corner with the state, so I will be changing >>> > them to white even if it is unsafe ... unless I have some code backing. >>> > >>> > Changing the wires to white will get interesting up on the roof. I >>> > wonder if they want me to cut off the black MC on the modules and replace >>> > them with white? This is mostly just an exercise in the State of Minnesota >>> > only wanting to know about and allow micro inverters. They brought in a >>> > state inspector from three hours away who kept repeating that he was a >>> > "highly qualified individual", but was unable to identify or recognize a >>> > charge controller. He kept referring to the charge controllers as >>> > inverters. >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > >>> > -James Jarvis >>> > APRS World, LLC >>> > +1-507-454-2727 >>> > http://www.aprsworld.com/ >>> > -------------- next part -------------- >>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> > URL: >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Jun 15 15:49:58 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 15:49:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker In-Reply-To: <17944884-BAF8-47C4-90F1-E5D5CF632762@millersolar.com> References: <17944884-BAF8-47C4-90F1-E5D5CF632762@millersolar.com> Message-ID: It also seems like there should be some sort of wire marking to indicate functional grounding.  This code change makes sense, but it unleashes many new questions as well.  My vote is that is that PV is already current limited, so I don't see good reason to add fusing to the "functionally grounded conductor". Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/15/20 3:24 PM, William Miller wrote: > Wrenches: > > Well now that the NFPA has acknowledged that GFDI protected circuits > do not solidly ground the “grounded“ conductor, and we know they can’t > be white in color, it begs the next question:   Should these > sort-of-grounded grounded  conductors be switched and over-current > protected? > > The manual for the Schneider charge controller shows the negative (or > referenced) switched on one page and not switched on another.  Outback > FM 100 manual shows the negative not switched. > > Anyone have an argument either way? > > William Miller > www.millersolar.com > >> On Jun 13, 2020, at 6:21 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote: >> >>  James, >> >> Here's the code reference: 2017 690.31(B)(1). Only solidly grounded >> PV system conductors shall be marked in accordance with 200.6 (white >> or gray). >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> >> On 6/13/2020 5:56 PM, James Jarvis wrote: >>> Brian, thank you very much. With your hint of "functional ground" I >>> can clearly see that I am not allowed to have those be white wires. >>> >>> Now time for me to incur the full wrath by daring to question the >>> infinite wisdom of the "highly qualified individual" from the state. >>> >>> (all kinds of fun stuff from this guy. Got another violation for >>> having a donut type current transformer over a line voltage wire. He >>> said that wasn't allowed.) >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> -James Jefferson Jarvis >>> APRS World, LLC >>> +1-507-454-2727 >>> >>> (Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.) >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 17:41 Brian Mehalic >> > wrote: >>> >>> Change in 2017 to “functional grounded” was to clarify this - >>> it’s not solid when it is thru a fuse or breaker than can be >>> interrupted either in the event of a ground-fault or if the >>> breaker is intentionally opened. 2017 makes it clear that there >>> are very few solidly grounded systems (2 or less PV source >>> circuits, not touching a building the only case it is allowed). >>> Pardon any incorrect language as I don’t have my code book, but >>> I do think the 2017 NEC® makes it very clear, including in the >>> definition of function grounded, that those conductors cannot be >>> white or gray, regardless of if the system has a >>> transformer-based or TL inverter or a CC with integrated or an >>> external GF breaker/fuse. >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> > On Jun 13, 2020, at 3:05 PM, greg egan >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > Jim,  Hope all is well with you and yours.  on white wires in >>> circuits, In 3 ph. circuits you can get killed breaking into a >>> neutral that's common to other circuits.  One example, working >>> on 277 lighting, you throw the breaker or light switch on the >>> one circuit you're working so the hot isn't hot anymore.  It's >>> standard practice for 3 ph. lighting ckts to share a neutral.  >>> The white wire in your ckt is wire nutted in the j-box up in the >>> ceiling to the common neutrals. Those neutrals are hot to ground >>> when their respective ckts are hot and they're carrying current. >>> > >>> > Just thought it was worth mentioning on this list that there's >>> no hard fast rule that all white wires are dead.  It depends on >>> the ckt. >>> > >>> > Best, >>> > Greg Egan >>> > Remote Power Inc. >>> > >>> > >>> > Message: 11 >>> > Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:17:19 -0500 >>> > From: James Jarvis> >>> > To: RE-wrenches>> > >>> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault >>> breaker >>> > Message-ID: >>> >    >>> >> > >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> > >>> > Hello Wrenches, >>> > >>> > I have an off-grid install where I was recently red-tagged by >>> the state >>> > inspector. System is 24 volt with battery, Magnum inverters, >>> some Magnum >>> > charge controllers, and a Morningstar charge controller. It is >>> permitted >>> > under NEC 2017. >>> > >>> > One of the inspectors issues was that my DC- conductors to the >>> array / >>> > rapid shut down box are black color. He wants them to be white >>> because he >>> > says they are solidly grounded. I reason that they are only >>> solidly >>> > grounded when they are solidly grounded. As soon as the ground >>> fault >>> > protection breaker opens, they are floating at array voltage. >>> I think it is >>> > misleading and unsafe to have a white conductor that can have >>> hundreds of >>> > volts of potential on it when a breaker trips. >>> > >>> > I haven't dug into the code yet. I'm just working on the logic >>> that one of >>> > my mentors put into me which is white wires better not have >>> voltage >>> > potential on them. "That's the sort of sh*t that kills >>> electricians" is >>> > what he repeatedly said ... and it's stuck with me. >>> > >>> > Thoughts? I'm backed into the corner with the state, so I will >>> be changing >>> > them to white even if it is unsafe ... unless I have some code >>> backing. >>> > >>> > Changing the wires to white will get interesting up on >>> the roof. I >>> > wonder if they want me to cut off the black MC on the modules >>> and replace >>> > them with white? This is mostly just an exercise in the State >>> of Minnesota >>> > only wanting to know about and allow micro inverters. They >>> brought in a >>> > state inspector from three hours away who kept repeating that >>> he was a >>> > "highly qualified individual", but was unable to identify or >>> recognize a >>> > charge controller. He kept referring to the charge controllers as >>> > inverters. >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > >>> > -James Jarvis >>> > APRS World, LLC >>> > +1-507-454-2727 >>> > http://www.aprsworld.com/ >>> > -------------- next part -------------- >>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> > >>> URL: >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jun 15 16:04:07 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 13:04:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Floatovoltaics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Corey, Yep I have seen them up in Napa on a small lake. It seems very risky in the Caribbean. The only thing I want on a roof is gutters for rainwater. You can tell I am biased. Maybe someone else has better info. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 13:15:42 -0500, Corey Shalanski wrote: Hi Dave, I was actually referring to a growing trend in the PV industry (particularly in Asia) to attach PV arrays - and also inverters in some cases - to floating pontoons and then install them on bodies of water. The systems are often referred to as floating PV (FPV) or "floatovoltaics". Here's an NREL link which provides further information about the concept: https://www.nrel.gov/news/press/2018/nrel-details-great-potential-for-floating-pv-systems.html [3] -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica On Sun, 14 Jun 2020 07:30:14 -0700, Dave Angelini wrote: I know both Schneider mppt's can be negative, positive, or ungrounded. Others must do this also. Is that what you are asking? They work as expected as far as I have seen. Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://www.nrel.gov/news/press/2018/nrel-details-great-potential-for-floating-pv-systems.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solsierra1 at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 16:19:47 2020 From: solsierra1 at gmail.com (Vic Guillot) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 13:19:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Experiences working with SMA SBS 6.0 battery inverters Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I would like to hear from anyone who has had recent experiences dealing with installation and tech support of SMA-America SBS 6.0 battery inverters, ABU's etc. We have done three installs this year and would like to discuss the installation and follow ups with SMA tech support. Thanks, Vic Guillot Sol Sierra, Inc. Vic Guillot Sol Sierra, Inc. 209.795.3554 office 209.768.3560 mobile/text -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarguy2004 at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 17:45:47 2020 From: solarguy2004 at gmail.com (Jim Duncan) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 16:45:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Floatovoltaics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At Ciel & Terre, we have been proudly *developing large-scale floating PV plants* for commercial, government and non-profit institutions worldwide *since 2011*. https://www.ciel-et-terre.net/ ************************ On 6/15/2020 3:04 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Hi Corey, > > Yep I have seen them up in Napa on a small lake. It seems very risky > in the Caribbean. The only thing I want on a roof is gutters for > rainwater. You can tell I am biased.  Maybe someone else has better info. > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 13:15:42 -0500, Corey Shalanski > wrote: > >> Hi Dave, >> I was actually referring to a growing trend in the PV industry >> (particularly in Asia) to attach PV arrays - and also inverters in >> some cases - to floating pontoons and then install them on bodies of >> water. The systems are often referred to as floating PV (FPV) or >> "floatovoltaics". Here's an NREL link which provides further >> information about the concept: >> https://www.nrel.gov/news/press/2018/nrel-details-great-potential-for-floating-pv-systems.html >> -- >> Corey Shalanski >> Jah Light Solar >> Portland, Jamaica >> On  Sun, 14 Jun 2020 07:30:14 -0700, Dave Angelini wrote: >> >> >> I know both Schneider mppt's can be negative, positive, or >> ungrounded. >> Others must do this also. Is that what you are asking? >> >> They work as >> expected as far as I have seen. >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Jim Duncan Solar Acres Farm 817.917.0527 solarguy2004 at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Mon Jun 15 16:38:52 2020 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 15:38:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Experiences working with SMA SBS 6.0 battery inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009801d64354$fbbc16d0$f3344470$@solarcentex.com> We have done several and there is a learning curve on some aspects. Reach out anytime. Scot Arey Scot.arey at solarcentex.com 254-300-1228 From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Vic Guillot Sent: Monday, June 15, 2020 3:20 PM To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Experiences working with SMA SBS 6.0 battery inverters Hello Wrenches, I would like to hear from anyone who has had recent experiences dealing with installation and tech support of SMA-America SBS 6.0 battery inverters, ABU's etc. We have done three installs this year and would like to discuss the installation and follow ups with SMA tech support. Thanks, Vic Guillot Sol Sierra, Inc. Vic Guillot Sol Sierra, Inc. 209.795.3554 office 209.768.3560 mobile/text -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Mon Jun 15 18:06:53 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 15:06:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker In-Reply-To: <17944884-BAF8-47C4-90F1-E5D5CF632762@millersolar.com> References: <17944884-BAF8-47C4-90F1-E5D5CF632762@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <29e849f0-fa0d-d9f7-9d60-5cb99ee10133@coveoregon.com> William, This is new for the 2017 code: 2017 NEC 690.13(D) An equipment disconnecting means shall simultaneously disconnect all current carrying conductors that are not solidly grounded. Yet Schneider, Outback, Midnite, Magnum, and ... all still have a single PV wire disconnected at the charge controller in their panels. As far as fusing both conductors goes, most PV circuit over current protection devices are selected so that they can never be tripped by the PV system. Adding another over current device in the non-solidly grounded conductor would be redundant. In a combiner box, a fault in one string can be back fed by many strings and thus trip an over current device, if the array is solidly grounded or if accidentally grounded and the ground fault detection scheme doesn't detect it. And even in a combiner box an current device in the non-solidly grounded conductor would be redundant. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 6/15/2020 12:24 PM, William Miller wrote: > Wrenches: > > Well now that the NFPA has acknowledged that GFDI protected circuits > do not solidly ground the “grounded“ conductor, and we know they can’t > be white in color, it begs the next question:   Should these > sort-of-grounded grounded  conductors be switched and over-current > protected? > > The manual for the Schneider charge controller shows the negative (or > referenced) switched on one page and not switched on another.  Outback > FM 100 manual shows the negative not switched. > > Anyone have an argument either way? > > William Miller > www.millersolar.com > >> On Jun 13, 2020, at 6:21 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote: >> >>  James, >> >> Here's the code reference: 2017 690.31(B)(1). Only solidly grounded >> PV system conductors shall be marked in accordance with 200.6 (white >> or gray). >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> >> On 6/13/2020 5:56 PM, James Jarvis wrote: >>> Brian, thank you very much. With your hint of "functional ground" I >>> can clearly see that I am not allowed to have those be white wires. >>> >>> Now time for me to incur the full wrath by daring to question the >>> infinite wisdom of the "highly qualified individual" from the state. >>> >>> (all kinds of fun stuff from this guy. Got another violation for >>> having a donut type current transformer over a line voltage wire. He >>> said that wasn't allowed.) >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> -James Jefferson Jarvis >>> APRS World, LLC >>> +1-507-454-2727 >>> >>> (Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.) >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 17:41 Brian Mehalic >> > wrote: >>> >>> Change in 2017 to “functional grounded” was to clarify this - >>> it’s not solid when it is thru a fuse or breaker than can be >>> interrupted either in the event of a ground-fault or if the >>> breaker is intentionally opened. 2017 makes it clear that there >>> are very few solidly grounded systems (2 or less PV source >>> circuits, not touching a building the only case it is allowed). >>> Pardon any incorrect language as I don’t have my code book, but >>> I do think the 2017 NEC® makes it very clear, including in the >>> definition of function grounded, that those conductors cannot be >>> white or gray, regardless of if the system has a >>> transformer-based or TL inverter or a CC with integrated or an >>> external GF breaker/fuse. >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> > On Jun 13, 2020, at 3:05 PM, greg egan >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > Jim,  Hope all is well with you and yours.  on white wires in >>> circuits, In 3 ph. circuits you can get killed breaking into a >>> neutral that's common to other circuits.  One example, working >>> on 277 lighting, you throw the breaker or light switch on the >>> one circuit you're working so the hot isn't hot anymore.  It's >>> standard practice for 3 ph. lighting ckts to share a neutral.  >>> The white wire in your ckt is wire nutted in the j-box up in the >>> ceiling to the common neutrals. Those neutrals are hot to ground >>> when their respective ckts are hot and they're carrying current. >>> > >>> > Just thought it was worth mentioning on this list that there's >>> no hard fast rule that all white wires are dead.  It depends on >>> the ckt. >>> > >>> > Best, >>> > Greg Egan >>> > Remote Power Inc. >>> > >>> > >>> > Message: 11 >>> > Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:17:19 -0500 >>> > From: James Jarvis> >>> > To: RE-wrenches>> > >>> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault >>> breaker >>> > Message-ID: >>> >    >>> >> > >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> > >>> > Hello Wrenches, >>> > >>> > I have an off-grid install where I was recently red-tagged by >>> the state >>> > inspector. System is 24 volt with battery, Magnum inverters, >>> some Magnum >>> > charge controllers, and a Morningstar charge controller. It is >>> permitted >>> > under NEC 2017. >>> > >>> > One of the inspectors issues was that my DC- conductors to the >>> array / >>> > rapid shut down box are black color. He wants them to be white >>> because he >>> > says they are solidly grounded. I reason that they are only >>> solidly >>> > grounded when they are solidly grounded. As soon as the ground >>> fault >>> > protection breaker opens, they are floating at array voltage. >>> I think it is >>> > misleading and unsafe to have a white conductor that can have >>> hundreds of >>> > volts of potential on it when a breaker trips. >>> > >>> > I haven't dug into the code yet. I'm just working on the logic >>> that one of >>> > my mentors put into me which is white wires better not have >>> voltage >>> > potential on them. "That's the sort of sh*t that kills >>> electricians" is >>> > what he repeatedly said ... and it's stuck with me. >>> > >>> > Thoughts? I'm backed into the corner with the state, so I will >>> be changing >>> > them to white even if it is unsafe ... unless I have some code >>> backing. >>> > >>> > Changing the wires to white will get interesting up on >>> the roof. I >>> > wonder if they want me to cut off the black MC on the modules >>> and replace >>> > them with white? This is mostly just an exercise in the State >>> of Minnesota >>> > only wanting to know about and allow micro inverters. They >>> brought in a >>> > state inspector from three hours away who kept repeating that >>> he was a >>> > "highly qualified individual", but was unable to identify or >>> recognize a >>> > charge controller. He kept referring to the charge controllers as >>> > inverters. >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > >>> > -James Jarvis >>> > APRS World, LLC >>> > +1-507-454-2727 >>> > http://www.aprsworld.com/ >>> > -------------- next part -------------- >>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> > >>> URL: >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bchurchill at energy-1.net Mon Jun 15 18:45:14 2020 From: bchurchill at energy-1.net (Barton Churchill) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 22:45:14 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker In-Reply-To: <29e849f0-fa0d-d9f7-9d60-5cb99ee10133@coveoregon.com> References: <17944884-BAF8-47C4-90F1-E5D5CF632762@millersolar.com>, <29e849f0-fa0d-d9f7-9d60-5cb99ee10133@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: Thanks Hans, we look forward to meeting you there! ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Kent Osterberg Sent: Monday, June 15, 2020 4:06 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker William, This is new for the 2017 code: 2017 NEC 690.13(D) An equipment disconnecting means shall simultaneously disconnect all current carrying conductors that are not solidly grounded. Yet Schneider, Outback, Midnite, Magnum, and ... all still have a single PV wire disconnected at the charge controller in their panels. As far as fusing both conductors goes, most PV circuit over current protection devices are selected so that they can never be tripped by the PV system. Adding another over current device in the non-solidly grounded conductor would be redundant. In a combiner box, a fault in one string can be back fed by many strings and thus trip an over current device, if the array is solidly grounded or if accidentally grounded and the ground fault detection scheme doesn't detect it. And even in a combiner box an current device in the non-solidly grounded conductor would be redundant. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 6/15/2020 12:24 PM, William Miller wrote: Wrenches: Well now that the NFPA has acknowledged that GFDI protected circuits do not solidly ground the “grounded“ conductor, and we know they can’t be white in color, it begs the next question: Should these sort-of-grounded grounded conductors be switched and over-current protected? The manual for the Schneider charge controller shows the negative (or referenced) switched on one page and not switched on another. Outback FM 100 manual shows the negative not switched. Anyone have an argument either way? William Miller www.millersolar.com On Jun 13, 2020, at 6:21 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote:  James, Here's the code reference: 2017 690.31(B)(1). Only solidly grounded PV system conductors shall be marked in accordance with 200.6 (white or gray). Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 6/13/2020 5:56 PM, James Jarvis wrote: Brian, thank you very much. With your hint of "functional ground" I can clearly see that I am not allowed to have those be white wires. Now time for me to incur the full wrath by daring to question the infinite wisdom of the "highly qualified individual" from the state. (all kinds of fun stuff from this guy. Got another violation for having a donut type current transformer over a line voltage wire. He said that wasn't allowed.) Thank you, -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 (Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.) On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 17:41 Brian Mehalic > wrote: Change in 2017 to “functional grounded” was to clarify this - it’s not solid when it is thru a fuse or breaker than can be interrupted either in the event of a ground-fault or if the breaker is intentionally opened. 2017 makes it clear that there are very few solidly grounded systems (2 or less PV source circuits, not touching a building the only case it is allowed). Pardon any incorrect language as I don’t have my code book, but I do think the 2017 NEC® makes it very clear, including in the definition of function grounded, that those conductors cannot be white or gray, regardless of if the system has a transformer-based or TL inverter or a CC with integrated or an external GF breaker/fuse. Brian > On Jun 13, 2020, at 3:05 PM, greg egan > wrote: > > Jim, Hope all is well with you and yours. on white wires in circuits, In 3 ph. circuits you can get killed breaking into a neutral that's common to other circuits. One example, working on 277 lighting, you throw the breaker or light switch on the one circuit you're working so the hot isn't hot anymore. It's standard practice for 3 ph. lighting ckts to share a neutral. The white wire in your ckt is wire nutted in the j-box up in the ceiling to the common neutrals. Those neutrals are hot to ground when their respective ckts are hot and they're carrying current. > > Just thought it was worth mentioning on this list that there's no hard fast rule that all white wires are dead. It depends on the ckt. > > Best, > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > > > Message: 11 > Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:17:19 -0500 > From: James Jarvis> > To: RE-wrenches> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hello Wrenches, > > I have an off-grid install where I was recently red-tagged by the state > inspector. System is 24 volt with battery, Magnum inverters, some Magnum > charge controllers, and a Morningstar charge controller. It is permitted > under NEC 2017. > > One of the inspectors issues was that my DC- conductors to the array / > rapid shut down box are black color. He wants them to be white because he > says they are solidly grounded. I reason that they are only solidly > grounded when they are solidly grounded. As soon as the ground fault > protection breaker opens, they are floating at array voltage. I think it is > misleading and unsafe to have a white conductor that can have hundreds of > volts of potential on it when a breaker trips. > > I haven't dug into the code yet. I'm just working on the logic that one of > my mentors put into me which is white wires better not have voltage > potential on them. "That's the sort of sh*t that kills electricians" is > what he repeatedly said ... and it's stuck with me. > > Thoughts? I'm backed into the corner with the state, so I will be changing > them to white even if it is unsafe ... unless I have some code backing. > > Changing the wires to white will get interesting up on the roof. I > wonder if they want me to cut off the black MC on the modules and replace > them with white? This is mostly just an exercise in the State of Minnesota > only wanting to know about and allow micro inverters. They brought in a > state inspector from three hours away who kept repeating that he was a > "highly qualified individual", but was unable to identify or recognize a > charge controller. He kept referring to the charge controllers as > inverters. > > Thanks, > > -James Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarguy2004 at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 23:15:48 2020 From: solarguy2004 at gmail.com (Jim Duncan) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 22:15:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SPAN - Smart home electrical panel.... In-Reply-To: <9b774fb1965036b83d9f833c9e482387@127.0.0.1> References: <9b774fb1965036b83d9f833c9e482387@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <6cad0041-8ebc-53f2-b1a9-32d5057a08fa@gmail.com> Anyone looking at these, yet? 32 Circuit Breaker Panel with (if looks like) individual (relay?) control on each circuit and CT Monitoring? I suppose Arc Fault Trip and GFI are built in? https://solarbuildermag.com/energy-storage/span-raises-10-2-million-in-quest-to-reinvent-the-home-electrical-panel/ https://www.span.io/smart-panel-product -- Jim Duncan Solar Acres Farm 817.917.0527 solarguy2004 at gmail.com From markf at berkeleysolar.com Tue Jun 16 09:41:46 2020 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:41:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SPAN - Smart home electrical panel.... In-Reply-To: <6cad0041-8ebc-53f2-b1a9-32d5057a08fa@gmail.com> References: <9b774fb1965036b83d9f833c9e482387@127.0.0.1> <6cad0041-8ebc-53f2-b1a9-32d5057a08fa@gmail.com> Message-ID: <04436298-3ea1-4da3-22ec-4e5150e7be19@berkeleysolar.com> Built in auto transformer. On 6/15/2020 8:15 PM, Jim Duncan wrote: > Anyone looking at these, yet? 32 Circuit Breaker Panel with (if looks > like) individual (relay?) control on each circuit and CT Monitoring? I > suppose Arc Fault Trip and GFI are built in? > https://solarbuildermag.com/energy-storage/span-raises-10-2-million-in-quest-to-reinvent-the-home-electrical-panel/ > https://www.span.io/smart-panel-product > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 19:15:01 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:15:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SPAN - Smart home electrical panel.... In-Reply-To: <6cad0041-8ebc-53f2-b1a9-32d5057a08fa@gmail.com> References: <9b774fb1965036b83d9f833c9e482387@127.0.0.1> <6cad0041-8ebc-53f2-b1a9-32d5057a08fa@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yup we are talking to them, it is only a load center, no meter socket but it can be programmed to disconnect loads for peak shaving On Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 1:41 AM Jim Duncan wrote: > Anyone looking at these, yet? 32 Circuit Breaker Panel with (if looks > like) individual (relay?) control on each circuit and CT Monitoring? I > suppose Arc Fault Trip and GFI are built in? > > https://solarbuildermag.com/energy-storage/span-raises-10-2-million-in-quest-to-reinvent-the-home-electrical-panel/ > https://www.span.io/smart-panel-product > > -- > Jim Duncan > Solar Acres Farm > 817.917.0527 > solarguy2004 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 19:35:46 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:35:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SPAN - Smart home electrical panel.... In-Reply-To: References: <9b774fb1965036b83d9f833c9e482387@127.0.0.1> <6cad0041-8ebc-53f2-b1a9-32d5057a08fa@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sounds similar to Smart Lumin, which is a 12 circuit smart relay system that can be retrofitted to an existing MDP to avoid having to create a critical loads panel. On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 7:23 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Yup we are talking to them, it is only a load center, no meter socket but > it can be programmed to disconnect loads for peak shaving > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 1:41 AM Jim Duncan wrote: > >> Anyone looking at these, yet? 32 Circuit Breaker Panel with (if looks >> like) individual (relay?) control on each circuit and CT Monitoring? I >> suppose Arc Fault Trip and GFI are built in? >> >> https://solarbuildermag.com/energy-storage/span-raises-10-2-million-in-quest-to-reinvent-the-home-electrical-panel/ >> https://www.span.io/smart-panel-product >> >> -- >> Jim Duncan >> Solar Acres Farm >> 817.917.0527 >> solarguy2004 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 19:31:44 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:31:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SPAN - Smart home electrical panel.... In-Reply-To: <6cad0041-8ebc-53f2-b1a9-32d5057a08fa@gmail.com> References: <9b774fb1965036b83d9f833c9e482387@127.0.0.1> <6cad0041-8ebc-53f2-b1a9-32d5057a08fa@gmail.com> Message-ID: I did not recall that they include breakers so GFI and ARC would not be included Jerry On Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 1:41 AM Jim Duncan wrote: > Anyone looking at these, yet? 32 Circuit Breaker Panel with (if looks > like) individual (relay?) control on each circuit and CT Monitoring? I > suppose Arc Fault Trip and GFI are built in? > > https://solarbuildermag.com/energy-storage/span-raises-10-2-million-in-quest-to-reinvent-the-home-electrical-panel/ > https://www.span.io/smart-panel-product > > -- > Jim Duncan > Solar Acres Farm > 817.917.0527 > solarguy2004 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Jun 17 06:50:33 2020 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 05:50:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SPAN - Smart home electrical panel.... In-Reply-To: References: <9b774fb1965036b83d9f833c9e482387@127.0.0.1> <6cad0041-8ebc-53f2-b1a9-32d5057a08fa@gmail.com> Message-ID: <014c01d64495$20c278c0$62476a40$@solarcentex.com> I spoke with the company. Great concept as we all know but there is a processor behind it all that rep conceded was not ready for primetime (Rasberry Pi, to be replaced by higher grade). The panel was not as “smart” as the website says; i.e, it is not dynamic shifting. Getting there but not there yet IMO Scot Arey SoalrCenTex From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 6:32 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SPAN - Smart home electrical panel.... I did not recall that they include breakers so GFI and ARC would not be included Jerry On Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 1:41 AM Jim Duncan > wrote: Anyone looking at these, yet? 32 Circuit Breaker Panel with (if looks like) individual (relay?) control on each circuit and CT Monitoring? I suppose Arc Fault Trip and GFI are built in? https://solarbuildermag.com/energy-storage/span-raises-10-2-million-in-quest-to-reinvent-the-home-electrical-panel/ https://www.span.io/smart-panel-product -- Jim Duncan Solar Acres Farm 817.917.0527 solarguy2004 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Jun 18 08:58:22 2020 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 08:58:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Oversized meter enclosure for line side connection recommendation In-Reply-To: <3a7df06b-803d-6b55-70b2-dcd2b7320e58@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <3a7df06b-803d-6b55-70b2-dcd2b7320e58@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <4533082b-a980-9184-2069-fcc2b8902fcc@entech-engineering.com> Hello Wrenches. Does anyone have a recommendation for an oversized utility meter enclosure that would provide sufficient space for a line side tap?  It would be 6AWG from the PV system tapping into 2AWG Service Entrance Conductors.  Thank you for any recommendations.  Chris From dan at foxfire-energy.com Thu Jun 18 09:03:03 2020 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:03:03 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Board repair Message-ID: Hi Guys, Hope all is well in your world.. I'm accumulating a pile of lame Outback FX boards, was wondering if anyone could suggest where I might get them refurbished? Thanks db -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Thu Jun 18 10:00:29 2020 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 09:00:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Oversized meter enclosure for line side connection recommendation In-Reply-To: <4533082b-a980-9184-2069-fcc2b8902fcc@entech-engineering.com> References: <3a7df06b-803d-6b55-70b2-dcd2b7320e58@villagepowerdesign.com> <4533082b-a980-9184-2069-fcc2b8902fcc@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: If you are going to replace the meter socket, using a 200 amp Milbank and a set of Milbank Step Lugs https://www.milbankworks.com/products/catalog/K4977-INT makes a nice clean solution. On Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 7:58 AM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > Hello Wrenches. Does anyone have a recommendation for an oversized > utility meter enclosure that would provide sufficient space for a line > side tap? It would be 6AWG from the PV system tapping into 2AWG Service > Entrance Conductors. Thank you for any recommendations. Chris > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Thu Jun 18 10:56:26 2020 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 10:56:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Oversized meter enclosure for line side connection recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <3a7df06b-803d-6b55-70b2-dcd2b7320e58@villagepowerdesign.com> <4533082b-a980-9184-2069-fcc2b8902fcc@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Make sure that your utility allows for this. NYSEG in NY gets very upset if you put anything in a meter enclosure other than the meter. Cheers, Dave On Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 10:00 AM Kristopher Schmid wrote: > If you are going to replace the meter socket, using a 200 amp Milbank and > a set of Milbank Step Lugs > https://www.milbankworks.com/products/catalog/K4977-INT > makes a nice clean solution. > > On Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 7:58 AM Christopher Warfel < > cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches. Does anyone have a recommendation for an oversized >> utility meter enclosure that would provide sufficient space for a line >> side tap? It would be 6AWG from the PV system tapping into 2AWG Service >> Entrance Conductors. Thank you for any recommendations. Chris >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu Jun 18 09:12:01 2020 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 08:12:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Oversized meter enclosure for line side connection recommendation In-Reply-To: <4533082b-a980-9184-2069-fcc2b8902fcc@entech-engineering.com> References: <3a7df06b-803d-6b55-70b2-dcd2b7320e58@villagepowerdesign.com> <4533082b-a980-9184-2069-fcc2b8902fcc@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <022601d64572$0e92fa70$2bb8ef50$@solarcentex.com> Milbank 200-amp meter socket and double-lug tap connectors K4977-EXT Scot Arey Solar CenTEx -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2020 7:58 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Oversized meter enclosure for line side connection recommendation Hello Wrenches. Does anyone have a recommendation for an oversized utility meter enclosure that would provide sufficient space for a line side tap? It would be 6AWG from the PV system tapping into 2AWG Service Entrance Conductors. Thank you for any recommendations. Chris _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 09:42:36 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 06:42:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Board repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7B01C007-2AFD-4A31-BFEB-3542A9C9B2F0@gmail.com> Hi Dan Talk to kris Stone (425) 233-0731 Jay Peltz power. > On Jun 18, 2020, at 6:03 AM, Foxfire Energy wrote: > >  > Hi Guys, Hope all is well in your world.. I'm accumulating a pile of lame Outback FX boards, was wondering if anyone could suggest where I might get them refurbished? Thanks db > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 18 17:44:35 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 17:44:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Oversized meter enclosure for line side connection recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <3a7df06b-803d-6b55-70b2-dcd2b7320e58@villagepowerdesign.com> <4533082b-a980-9184-2069-fcc2b8902fcc@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: I'll second this. Florida frowns upon interconnections in the meter. I don't know any utility here that allows it (maybe some munis/co-ops, but I've never come across one). On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 10:56 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Make sure that your utility allows for this. NYSEG in NY gets very upset > if you put anything in a meter enclosure other than the meter. > Cheers, > Dave > > On Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 10:00 AM Kristopher Schmid > wrote: > >> If you are going to replace the meter socket, using a 200 amp Milbank and >> a set of Milbank Step Lugs >> https://www.milbankworks.com/products/catalog/K4977-INT >> >> >> makes a nice clean solution. >> >> On Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 7:58 AM Christopher Warfel < >> cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: >> >>> Hello Wrenches. Does anyone have a recommendation for an oversized >>> utility meter enclosure that would provide sufficient space for a line >>> side tap? It would be 6AWG from the PV system tapping into 2AWG Service >>> Entrance Conductors. Thank you for any recommendations. Chris >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamie.greenwired at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 19:14:29 2020 From: jamie.greenwired at gmail.com (Jamie Rennie) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 16:14:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Programs for one line DWGs. In-Reply-To: <009701d62d63$d9762860$8c627920$@solarwork.com> References: <009701d62d63$d9762860$8c627920$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: LibreCAD is free open source software. Downside is you cannot import dwg files. On Mon, May 18, 2020, 3:29 PM Dana Orzel wrote: > Hey all you wise guys! > > > > I looked back in the archives & found a few recommendations on drawing > programs. I had Design CAD-3D for 15 years and it was simple [2D & 3D] & > worked fine. I had to upgrade recently as this program is now out of date > and am currently overwhelmed with too many overly complex drawing programs. > > > > I need to draw boxes, lines, text, arrows, a few curves you know the > tasks. I don’t need to do 3D rendering of parts etc. I also need a program > that has decent tutorials. > > > > What are you all using that is pretty basic for 2D drawings on a very > up-to-date PC? > > > > Suffering with too many options… Thanks in advance. > > > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Thu Jun 18 20:56:00 2020 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 17:56:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Programs for one line DWGs. In-Reply-To: References: <009701d62d63$d9762860$8c627920$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Draftsight is pretty good if you're familiar with AutoCad. The basic version is an autocad Lt clone. Eric Smiley, P.Eng. Project Manager, North Island E: eric at vecoop.ca T: 1-888-386-0116 ext 702 (toll free) C: 250-703-6004 W: viridianenergy.ca On Thu., Jun. 18, 2020, 4:14 p.m. Jamie Rennie, wrote: > LibreCAD is free open source software. Downside is you cannot import dwg > files. > > On Mon, May 18, 2020, 3:29 PM Dana Orzel wrote: > >> Hey all you wise guys! >> >> >> >> I looked back in the archives & found a few recommendations on drawing >> programs. I had Design CAD-3D for 15 years and it was simple [2D & 3D] & >> worked fine. I had to upgrade recently as this program is now out of date >> and am currently overwhelmed with too many overly complex drawing programs. >> >> >> >> I need to draw boxes, lines, text, arrows, a few curves you know the >> tasks. I don’t need to do 3D rendering of parts etc. I also need a program >> that has decent tutorials. >> >> >> >> What are you all using that is pretty basic for 2D drawings on a very >> up-to-date PC? >> >> >> >> Suffering with too many options… Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> * >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com >> >> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * >> >> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 17:46:38 2020 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 15:46:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Floatovoltaics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We've spoken with Isofloating a few times and have been pleased with their service and technical understanding of real-world challenges. Their US experience is not extensive, but the product seems solid and pricing is competitive. C&T seems to be a good option as well. Regards, Andrew Truitt www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in this message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 8:31 PM Jim Duncan wrote: > At Ciel & Terre, we have been proudly *developing large-scale floating PV > plants* for commercial, government and non-profit institutions worldwide *since > 2011*. > https://www.ciel-et-terre.net/ > ************************ > > > On 6/15/2020 3:04 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Hi Corey, > > Yep I have seen them up in Napa on a small lake. It seems very risky in > the Caribbean. The only thing I want on a roof is gutters for rainwater. > You can tell I am biased. Maybe someone else has better info. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 13:15:42 -0500, Corey Shalanski > wrote: > > Hi Dave, > > I was actually referring to a growing trend in the PV industry > (particularly in Asia) to attach PV arrays - and also inverters in some > cases - to floating pontoons and then install them on bodies of water. The > systems are often referred to as floating PV (FPV) or "floatovoltaics". > Here's an NREL link which provides further information about the concept: > https://www.nrel.gov/news/press/2018/nrel-details-great-potential-for-floating-pv-systems.html > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > > > On Sun, 14 Jun 2020 07:30:14 -0700, Dave Angelini wrote: > >> >> I know both Schneider mppt's can be negative, positive, or ungrounded. >> Others must do this also. Is that what you are asking? >> >> They work as >> expected as far as I have seen. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > Jim Duncan > Solar Acres Farm > 817.917.0527solarguy2004 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com Sun Jun 21 16:00:37 2020 From: Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com (Gary Willett) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 15:00:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Programs for one line DWGs. In-Reply-To: References: <009701d62d63$d9762860$8c627920$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Jun 21 17:40:27 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 15:40:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Programs for one line DWGs. In-Reply-To: References: <009701d62d63$d9762860$8c627920$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: 2nd the Visio.  Very easy to use, compared to the learning curves on some of the other CAD systems. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/21/20 4:00 PM, Gary Willett wrote: > I've used Visio (MicroSoft) for years and it works well for 1-line and > 2-line drawings. Can also export to and import from AutoCad. Has great > internal symbol libraries, or you can create your own. > > On 6/18/20 7:56 PM, Eric Smiley wrote: >> Draftsight is pretty good if you're familiar with AutoCad. The basic >> version is an autocad Lt clone. >> >> Eric Smiley, P.Eng. >> Project Manager, North Island >> >> E: eric at vecoop.ca >> T:  1-888-386-0116 ext 702 (toll free) >> C:  250-703-6004 >> W: viridianenergy.ca >> >> On Thu., Jun. 18, 2020, 4:14 p.m. Jamie Rennie, >> > wrote: >> >> LibreCAD is free open source software. Downside is you cannot >> import dwg files. >> >> On Mon, May 18, 2020, 3:29 PM Dana Orzel > > wrote: >> >> Hey all you wise guys! >> >> I looked back in the archives & found a few recommendations >> on drawing programs. I had Design CAD-3D for 15 years and it >> was simple [2D & 3D] & worked fine. I had to upgrade recently >> as this program is now out of date and am currently >> overwhelmed with too many overly complex drawing programs. >> >> I need to draw boxes, lines, text, arrows, a few curves you >> know the tasks. I don’t need to do 3D rendering of parts etc. >> I also need a program that has decent tutorials. >> >> What are you all using that is pretty basic for 2D drawings >> on a very up-to-date PC? >> >> Suffering with too many options… Thanks in advance. >> >> Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com * >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com >> >> _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" ___ >> >> *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Jun 25 13:35:17 2020 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 13:35:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Slave Radian not showing up on Hub10 or @ Mate3s Message-ID: G'Day All, So I started up a system recently with two Radian 8048A's. The master is connected to port 1 and the slave connected to port 2 with the FlexNet at port 3. There are no OB charge controllers in the system. When the hub is polling (led's scrolling) nothing shows up for the slave at port 2. It's like the slave inverter doesn't exist. So I moved the slave and flexnet down to port 3 and 4. No change in the polling. I swapped out comm (factory green) cables. Again no change. Looking at the control board of the slave there is only one green led on which is located at the upper right-hand side. Otherwise no led's are on. I have 57v at the buss bar terminals of the inverter. Of course since there is no polling at the hub there is no way to view port 2 to view the slave at the Mate. Now the only thing that I didn't do was to try and use the manual on/off switch-jumper to start the slave. But in the past regardless of the inverter being on or off it would still show up on the hub. This is a new one and I'm looking for some direction here. Thanks, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roland at renewablenergy.com Thu Jun 25 15:05:32 2020 From: roland at renewablenergy.com (Roland - RES) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 09:05:32 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Slave Radian not showing up on Hub10 or @ Mate3s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Chris, Sounds like a failed power supply board Outback part SPARE-215. If the unit is under warranty you should be able to get a replacement through OB tech support. > Sent from a IPhone, with touch screen keys on the fly. Please excuse shortcuts and typos. > Roland Shackelford NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER President Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc. Mobile: 808-938-9239 www.renewablenergy.com > On Jun 25, 2020, at 7:35 AM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > >  > G'Day All, > > So I started up a system recently with two Radian 8048A's. The master is connected to port 1 and the slave connected to port 2 with the FlexNet at port 3. There are no OB charge controllers in the system. When the hub is polling (led's scrolling) nothing shows up for the slave at port 2. It's like the slave inverter doesn't exist. So I moved the slave and flexnet down to port 3 and 4. No change in the polling. I swapped out comm (factory green) cables. Again no change. Looking at the control board of the slave there is only one green led on which is located at the upper right-hand side. Otherwise no led's are on. I have 57v at the buss bar terminals of the inverter. Of course since there is no polling at the hub there is no way to view port 2 to view the slave at the Mate. > > Now the only thing that I didn't do was to try and use the manual on/off switch-jumper to start the slave. But in the past regardless of the inverter being on or off it would still show up on the hub. This is a new one and I'm looking for some direction here. > > Thanks, > Christopher- > Chris Schaefer’s > > Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 14:58:46 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 11:58:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Slave Radian not showing up on Hub10 or @ Mate3s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Did you try putting the slave inverter to port 1? Jay > On Jun 25, 2020, at 10:35 AM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > >  > G'Day All, > > So I started up a system recently with two Radian 8048A's. The master is connected to port 1 and the slave connected to port 2 with the FlexNet at port 3. There are no OB charge controllers in the system. When the hub is polling (led's scrolling) nothing shows up for the slave at port 2. It's like the slave inverter doesn't exist. So I moved the slave and flexnet down to port 3 and 4. No change in the polling. I swapped out comm (factory green) cables. Again no change. Looking at the control board of the slave there is only one green led on which is located at the upper right-hand side. Otherwise no led's are on. I have 57v at the buss bar terminals of the inverter. Of course since there is no polling at the hub there is no way to view port 2 to view the slave at the Mate. > > Now the only thing that I didn't do was to try and use the manual on/off switch-jumper to start the slave. But in the past regardless of the inverter being on or off it would still show up on the hub. This is a new one and I'm looking for some direction here. > > Thanks, > Christopher- > Chris Schaefer’s > > Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jun 25 14:19:24 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 11:19:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Slave Radian not showing up on Hub10 or @ Mate3s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Christopher; Just spit-balling here: is the secondary inverter asleep (hate the master/slave terminology…)? Try changing power save settings to make sure the secondary is awake and see if that changes the situation. Seems unlikely this will solve the problem, but it may provide some kind of clue. Also, did you try swapping primary and secondary? Run with secondary alone as primary? William Miller *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Chris Schaefer *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 10:35 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Slave Radian not showing up on Hub10 or @ Mate3s G'Day All, So I started up a system recently with two Radian 8048A's. The master is connected to port 1 and the slave connected to port 2 with the FlexNet at port 3. There are no OB charge controllers in the system. When the hub is polling (led's scrolling) nothing shows up for the slave at port 2. It's like the slave inverter doesn't exist. So I moved the slave and flexnet down to port 3 and 4. No change in the polling. I swapped out comm (factory green) cables. Again no change. Looking at the control board of the slave there is only one green led on which is located at the upper right-hand side. Otherwise no led's are on. I have 57v at the buss bar terminals of the inverter. Of course since there is no polling at the hub there is no way to view port 2 to view the slave at the Mate. Now the only thing that I didn't do was to try and use the manual on/off switch-jumper to start the slave. But in the past regardless of the inverter being on or off it would still show up on the hub. This is a new one and I'm looking for some direction here. Thanks, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 15:43:04 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 12:43:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Slave Radian not showing up on Hub10 or @ Mate3s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches It sounds like a out of the box board failure, even if the slave is in standby it is connected to the hub and you see it, if you swapped the cable, port location, its time to talk to OB tech and get a board sent out, Jerry On Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 12:37 PM William Miller wrote: > Christopher; > > > > Just spit-balling here: is the secondary inverter asleep (hate the > master/slave terminology…)? Try changing power save settings to make sure > the secondary is awake and see if that changes the situation. Seems > unlikely this will solve the problem, but it may provide some kind of clue. > > > > Also, did you try swapping primary and secondary? Run with secondary > alone as primary? > > > > William Miller > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Chris Schaefer > *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 10:35 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Slave Radian not showing up on Hub10 or @ Mate3s > > > > G'Day All, > > > > So I started up a system recently with two Radian 8048A's. The master is > connected to port 1 and the slave connected to port 2 with the FlexNet at > port 3. There are no OB charge controllers in the system. When the hub is > polling (led's scrolling) nothing shows up for the slave at port 2. It's > like the slave inverter doesn't exist. So I moved the slave and flexnet > down to port 3 and 4. No change in the polling. I swapped out comm (factory > green) cables. Again no change. Looking at the control board of the slave > there is only one green led on which is located at the upper right-hand > side. Otherwise no led's are on. I have 57v at the buss bar terminals of > the inverter. Of course since there is no polling at the hub there is no > way to view port 2 to view the slave at the Mate. > > > > Now the only thing that I didn't do was to try and use the manual on/off > switch-jumper to start the slave. But in the past regardless of the > inverter being on or off it would still show up on the hub. This is a new > one and I'm looking for some direction here. > > > > Thanks, > > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Jun 25 15:53:47 2020 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 15:53:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Slave Radian not showing up on Hub10 or @ Mate3s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The system is critical to a farm watering operation so I wasn't able to shut it down to try and swap the port 1 inverter with the port 2 inverter. As for changing the power save settings, that is what alerted me to the issue. Under no circumstance can you see a port 2 via the Mate. That's what had me looking at the hub itself and that's when I noticed that the LED on port 2 wasn't lighting up as the hub scrolled/polled by. Christopher On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 3:37 PM William Miller wrote: > Christopher; > > > > Just spit-balling here: is the secondary inverter asleep (hate the > master/slave terminology…)? Try changing power save settings to make sure > the secondary is awake and see if that changes the situation. Seems > unlikely this will solve the problem, but it may provide some kind of clue. > > > > Also, did you try swapping primary and secondary? Run with secondary > alone as primary? > > > > William Miller > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Chris Schaefer > *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 10:35 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Slave Radian not showing up on Hub10 or @ Mate3s > > > > G'Day All, > > > > So I started up a system recently with two Radian 8048A's. The master is > connected to port 1 and the slave connected to port 2 with the FlexNet at > port 3. There are no OB charge controllers in the system. When the hub is > polling (led's scrolling) nothing shows up for the slave at port 2. It's > like the slave inverter doesn't exist. So I moved the slave and flexnet > down to port 3 and 4. No change in the polling. I swapped out comm (factory > green) cables. Again no change. Looking at the control board of the slave > there is only one green led on which is located at the upper right-hand > side. Otherwise no led's are on. I have 57v at the buss bar terminals of > the inverter. Of course since there is no polling at the hub there is no > way to view port 2 to view the slave at the Mate. > > > > Now the only thing that I didn't do was to try and use the manual on/off > switch-jumper to start the slave. But in the past regardless of the > inverter being on or off it would still show up on the hub. This is a new > one and I'm looking for some direction here. > > > > Thanks, > > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 16:25:24 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 13:25:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Slave Radian not showing up on Hub10 or @ Mate3s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris Did you skip over and plug in to port 3 with the slave, swap the cord, Jerry On Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 12:54 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: > The system is critical to a farm watering operation so I wasn't able to > shut it down to try and swap the port 1 inverter with the port 2 inverter. > As for changing the power save settings, that is what alerted me to the > issue. Under no circumstance can you see a port 2 via the Mate. That's what > had me looking at the hub itself and that's when I noticed that the LED on > port 2 wasn't lighting up as the hub scrolled/polled by. > > Christopher > > On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 3:37 PM William Miller > wrote: > >> Christopher; >> >> >> >> Just spit-balling here: is the secondary inverter asleep (hate the >> master/slave terminology…)? Try changing power save settings to make sure >> the secondary is awake and see if that changes the situation. Seems >> unlikely this will solve the problem, but it may provide some kind of clue. >> >> >> >> Also, did you try swapping primary and secondary? Run with secondary >> alone as primary? >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Chris Schaefer >> *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 10:35 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Slave Radian not showing up on Hub10 or @ Mate3s >> >> >> >> G'Day All, >> >> >> >> So I started up a system recently with two Radian 8048A's. The master is >> connected to port 1 and the slave connected to port 2 with the FlexNet at >> port 3. There are no OB charge controllers in the system. When the hub is >> polling (led's scrolling) nothing shows up for the slave at port 2. It's >> like the slave inverter doesn't exist. So I moved the slave and flexnet >> down to port 3 and 4. No change in the polling. I swapped out comm (factory >> green) cables. Again no change. Looking at the control board of the slave >> there is only one green led on which is located at the upper right-hand >> side. Otherwise no led's are on. I have 57v at the buss bar terminals of >> the inverter. Of course since there is no polling at the hub there is no >> way to view port 2 to view the slave at the Mate. >> >> >> >> Now the only thing that I didn't do was to try and use the manual on/off >> switch-jumper to start the slave. But in the past regardless of the >> inverter being on or off it would still show up on the hub. This is a new >> one and I'm looking for some direction here. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Christopher- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Jun 25 17:00:40 2020 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 17:00:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Slave Radian not showing up on Hub10 or @ Mate3s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Since the Flexnet on port 3 was active and could be seen on the Mate, thus I moved the slave on port 2 to port 3 and moved the FlexNet from port 3 to port 4. No change. I did try another OB factory green cable to no avail. Christopher On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 4:25 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Chris > Did you skip over and plug in to port 3 with the slave, swap the cord, > Jerry > > On Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 12:54 PM Chris Schaefer > wrote: > >> The system is critical to a farm watering operation so I wasn't able to >> shut it down to try and swap the port 1 inverter with the port 2 inverter. >> As for changing the power save settings, that is what alerted me to the >> issue. Under no circumstance can you see a port 2 via the Mate. That's what >> had me looking at the hub itself and that's when I noticed that the LED on >> port 2 wasn't lighting up as the hub scrolled/polled by. >> >> Christopher >> >> On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 3:37 PM William Miller >> wrote: >> >>> Christopher; >>> >>> >>> >>> Just spit-balling here: is the secondary inverter asleep (hate the >>> master/slave terminology…)? Try changing power save settings to make sure >>> the secondary is awake and see if that changes the situation. Seems >>> unlikely this will solve the problem, but it may provide some kind of clue. >>> >>> >>> >>> Also, did you try swapping primary and secondary? Run with secondary >>> alone as primary? >>> >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>> Behalf Of *Chris Schaefer >>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 10:35 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Slave Radian not showing up on Hub10 or @ >>> Mate3s >>> >>> >>> >>> G'Day All, >>> >>> >>> >>> So I started up a system recently with two Radian 8048A's. The master is >>> connected to port 1 and the slave connected to port 2 with the FlexNet at >>> port 3. There are no OB charge controllers in the system. When the hub is >>> polling (led's scrolling) nothing shows up for the slave at port 2. It's >>> like the slave inverter doesn't exist. So I moved the slave and flexnet >>> down to port 3 and 4. No change in the polling. I swapped out comm (factory >>> green) cables. Again no change. Looking at the control board of the slave >>> there is only one green led on which is located at the upper right-hand >>> side. Otherwise no led's are on. I have 57v at the buss bar terminals of >>> the inverter. Of course since there is no polling at the hub there is no >>> way to view port 2 to view the slave at the Mate. >>> >>> >>> >>> Now the only thing that I didn't do was to try and use the manual >>> on/off switch-jumper to start the slave. But in the past regardless of the >>> inverter being on or off it would still show up on the hub. This is a new >>> one and I'm looking for some direction here. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Christopher- >>> >>> Chris Schaefer’s >>> >>> >>> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >>> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424www.solarandwindfx.com >>> ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> * >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >>> willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 17:05:54 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 14:05:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Slave Radian not showing up on Hub10 or @ Mate3s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ok back to outback defective board in the comms side of the inverter, contact outback and what ever you do do NOT leave your number for a call back as it will never come, call first thing, stay on hold and wait. Jerry On Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 2:00 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: > Since the Flexnet on port 3 was active and could be seen on the Mate, thus > I moved the slave on port 2 to port 3 and moved the FlexNet from port 3 to > port 4. No change. I did try another OB factory green cable to no avail. > > Christopher > > On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 4:25 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Chris >> Did you skip over and plug in to port 3 with the slave, swap the cord, >> Jerry >> >> On Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 12:54 PM Chris Schaefer >> wrote: >> >>> The system is critical to a farm watering operation so I wasn't able to >>> shut it down to try and swap the port 1 inverter with the port 2 inverter. >>> As for changing the power save settings, that is what alerted me to the >>> issue. Under no circumstance can you see a port 2 via the Mate. That's what >>> had me looking at the hub itself and that's when I noticed that the LED on >>> port 2 wasn't lighting up as the hub scrolled/polled by. >>> >>> Christopher >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 3:37 PM William Miller >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Christopher; >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Just spit-balling here: is the secondary inverter asleep (hate the >>>> master/slave terminology…)? Try changing power save settings to make sure >>>> the secondary is awake and see if that changes the situation. Seems >>>> unlikely this will solve the problem, but it may provide some kind of clue. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also, did you try swapping primary and secondary? Run with secondary >>>> alone as primary? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> William Miller >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>>> Behalf Of *Chris Schaefer >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 10:35 AM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Slave Radian not showing up on Hub10 or @ >>>> Mate3s >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> G'Day All, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So I started up a system recently with two Radian 8048A's. The master >>>> is connected to port 1 and the slave connected to port 2 with the FlexNet >>>> at port 3. There are no OB charge controllers in the system. When the hub >>>> is polling (led's scrolling) nothing shows up for the slave at port 2. It's >>>> like the slave inverter doesn't exist. So I moved the slave and flexnet >>>> down to port 3 and 4. No change in the polling. I swapped out comm (factory >>>> green) cables. Again no change. Looking at the control board of the slave >>>> there is only one green led on which is located at the upper right-hand >>>> side. Otherwise no led's are on. I have 57v at the buss bar terminals of >>>> the inverter. Of course since there is no polling at the hub there is no >>>> way to view port 2 to view the slave at the Mate. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Now the only thing that I didn't do was to try and use the manual >>>> on/off switch-jumper to start the slave. But in the past regardless of the >>>> inverter being on or off it would still show up on the hub. This is a new >>>> one and I'm looking for some direction here. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Christopher- >>>> >>>> Chris Schaefer’s >>>> >>>> >>>> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >>>> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York >>>> 14424www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com >>>> * >>>> >>>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >>>> willing to work and give to those who would not." >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Chris Schaefer’s >>> >>> >>> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >>> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >>> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> * >>> >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >>> willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Thu Jun 25 17:06:45 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 17:06:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Slave Radian not showing up on Hub10 or @ Mate3s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The master-slave config types and port assignments have always been confusing. The quick start guide lists a config where the master is port 1 and the slave is port 7. I believe port 7 is called the sub-master in this config. With only 2 inverters it functions as the slave to the master in port 1. This config has always worked for me. Hope this is accurate info. On 6/25/2020 1:35:55 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: G'Day All, So I started up a system recently with two Radian 8048A's. The master is connected to port 1 and the slave connected to port 2 with the FlexNet at port 3. There are no OB charge controllers in the system. When the hub is polling (led's scrolling) nothing shows up for the slave at port 2. It's like the slave inverter doesn't exist. So I moved the slave and flexnet down to port 3 and 4. No change in the polling. I swapped out comm (factory green) cables. Again no change. Looking at the control board of the slave there is only one green led on which is located at the upper right-hand side. Otherwise no led's are on. I have 57v at the buss bar terminals of the inverter. Of course since there is no polling at the hub there is no way to view port 2 to view the slave at the Mate. Now the only thing that I didn't do was to try and use the manual on/off switch-jumper to start the slave. But in the past regardless of the inverter being on or off it would still show up on the hub. This is a new one and I'm looking for some direction here. Thanks, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s [http:www.solarandwindfx.com] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com [http://www.solarandwindfx.com] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com] Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jun 25 17:44:35 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 14:44:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Slave Radian not showing up on Hub10 or @ Mate3s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kirk: If my memory is correct: What you describe below are port assignments if one is stacking FXR inverters for 120/240 with a Hub 10.3. It also requires changing DIP jumpers from factory defaults. This is not accurate for stacking Radians. With Radians I think secondary inverters can use any port but I have always used 2 through X for secondaries. William *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kirk Herander *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 2:07 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Slave Radian not showing up on Hub10 or @ Mate3s The master-slave config types and port assignments have always been confusing. The quick start guide lists a config where the master is port 1 and the slave is port 7. I believe port 7 is called the sub-master in this config. With only 2 inverters it functions as the slave to the master in port 1. This config has always worked for me. Hope this is accurate info. On 6/25/2020 1:35:55 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: G'Day All, So I started up a system recently with two Radian 8048A's. The master is connected to port 1 and the slave connected to port 2 with the FlexNet at port 3. There are no OB charge controllers in the system. When the hub is polling (led's scrolling) nothing shows up for the slave at port 2. It's like the slave inverter doesn't exist. So I moved the slave and flexnet down to port 3 and 4. No change in the polling. I swapped out comm (factory green) cables. Again no change. Looking at the control board of the slave there is only one green led on which is located at the upper right-hand side. Otherwise no led's are on. I have 57v at the buss bar terminals of the inverter. Of course since there is no polling at the hub there is no way to view port 2 to view the slave at the Mate. Now the only thing that I didn't do was to try and use the manual on/off switch-jumper to start the slave. But in the past regardless of the inverter being on or off it would still show up on the hub. This is a new one and I'm looking for some direction here. Thanks, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s *Error! Filename not specified.* *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com * *Error! Filename not specified.* Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Jun 25 19:59:57 2020 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 19:59:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Slave Radian not showing up on Hub10 or @ Mate3s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well after just a little over 2 hours on hold I did get through to a very understanding tech support rep. I explained the issue and that the only LED on the board that was on was the D21 (Remote Pwr). Today I learned that this is powered by the Hub. Thus the PSB is indeed dead. I was given a choice of either a replacement PSB or an entirely new inverter. Apparently there has been an ongoing issue with the power supply boards lately and in order to figure out why the engineering department would like to get the entire unit returned for testing purposes. So for the sake of all of us out in the field I agreed to replace the entire inverter in hopes that this problem can be eliminated. Thanks for all your input and now we have yet another tool in our "mental" toolbag. Gratefully, Christopher On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 6:31 PM William Miller wrote: > Kirk: > > > > If my memory is correct: What you describe below are port assignments if > one is stacking FXR inverters for 120/240 with a Hub 10.3. It also > requires changing DIP jumpers from factory defaults. This is not accurate > for stacking Radians. With Radians I think secondary inverters can use any > port but I have always used 2 through X for secondaries. > > > > William > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Kirk Herander > *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 2:07 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Slave Radian not showing up on Hub10 or @ > Mate3s > > > > The master-slave config types and port assignments have always been > confusing. The quick start guide lists a config where the master is port 1 > and the slave is port 7. I believe port 7 is called the sub-master in this > config. With only 2 inverters it functions as the slave to the master in > port 1. This config has always worked for me. > > > > Hope this is accurate info. > > On 6/25/2020 1:35:55 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > > G'Day All, > > > > So I started up a system recently with two Radian 8048A's. The master is > connected to port 1 and the slave connected to port 2 with the FlexNet at > port 3. There are no OB charge controllers in the system. When the hub is > polling (led's scrolling) nothing shows up for the slave at port 2. It's > like the slave inverter doesn't exist. So I moved the slave and flexnet > down to port 3 and 4. No change in the polling. I swapped out comm (factory > green) cables. Again no change. Looking at the control board of the slave > there is only one green led on which is located at the upper right-hand > side. Otherwise no led's are on. I have 57v at the buss bar terminals of > the inverter. Of course since there is no polling at the hub there is no > way to view port 2 to view the slave at the Mate. > > > > Now the only thing that I didn't do was to try and use the manual on/off > switch-jumper to start the slave. But in the past regardless of the > inverter being on or off it would still show up on the hub. This is a new > one and I'm looking for some direction here. > > > > Thanks, > > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer’s > *Error! Filename not specified.* > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > *Error! Filename not specified.* > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood > Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change > listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or > update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Thu Jun 25 18:53:33 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:53:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Slave Radian not showing up on Hub10 or @ Mate3s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yea, i suspected that. Me bad. been a while for sure. On 6/25/2020 6:31:24 PM, William Miller wrote: Kirk: If my memory is correct: What you describe below are port assignments if one is stacking FXR inverters for 120/240 with a Hub 10.3. It also requires changing DIP jumpers from factory defaults. This is not accurate for stacking Radians. With Radians I think secondary inverters can use any port but I have always used 2 through X for secondaries. William From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 2:07 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Slave Radian not showing up on Hub10 or @ Mate3s The master-slave config types and port assignments have always been confusing. The quick start guide lists a config where the master is port 1 and the slave is port 7. I believe port 7 is called the sub-master in this config. With only 2 inverters it functions as the slave to the master in port 1. This config has always worked for me. Hope this is accurate info. On 6/25/2020 1:35:55 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: G'Day All, So I started up a system recently with two Radian 8048A's. The master is connected to port 1 and the slave connected to port 2 with the FlexNet at port 3. There are no OB charge controllers in the system. When the hub is polling (led's scrolling) nothing shows up for the slave at port 2. It's like the slave inverter doesn't exist. So I moved the slave and flexnet down to port 3 and 4. No change in the polling. I swapped out comm (factory green) cables. Again no change. Looking at the control board of the slave there is only one green led on which is located at the upper right-hand side. Otherwise no led's are on. I have 57v at the buss bar terminals of the inverter. Of course since there is no polling at the hub there is no way to view port 2 to view the slave at the Mate. Now the only thing that I didn't do was to try and use the manual on/off switch-jumper to start the slave. But in the past regardless of the inverter being on or off it would still show up on the hub. This is a new one and I'm looking for some direction here. Thanks, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s Error! Filename not specified. [http://www.solarandwindfx.com] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com [http://www.solarandwindfx.com] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com] Error! Filename not specified. Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Jun 26 18:06:24 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 15:06:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mass failure of Siemens SP150s Message-ID: Friends and colleagues: I recently performed a service call at a grid-tied installation we did in 2003. The homeowner noticed the daily consumption had declined to about 1/3 of typical sometime in the last year. Sure enough 2 of the three strings (30 mods in total) of Siemens SP150s showed low voltage. When I tilted up two of the racks to expose one dead string of 10, I found that 6 of the 10 panels had 1/3 or 2/3 of the expected OC voltage. Testing of the individual strings indicated that 1 or 2 strings were dead on each affected panel. Close examination revealed pinpoint heat damage on inter-cell traces. The diodes tested good. See photo below. I am surprised to see such a high rate of failure. Has anyone else experienced this with these or other panels? Is anyone servicing warranty claims on these ancient panels? I doubt there is much value left in the warranty but I am curious. Thanks in advance. William Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 57693 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Jun 26 20:47:29 2020 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 18:47:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mass failure of Siemens SP150s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006101d64c1c$89d23ba0$9d76b2e0$@solarwork.com> Are there burn marks on the backing? I have had several entire array replacements in the past back in the 150-175 watt/module days. But not in a while. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 4:06 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mass failure of Siemens SP150s Friends and colleagues: I recently performed a service call at a grid-tied installation we did in 2003. The homeowner noticed the daily consumption had declined to about 1/3 of typical sometime in the last year. Sure enough 2 of the three strings (30 mods in total) of Siemens SP150s showed low voltage. When I tilted up two of the racks to expose one dead string of 10, I found that 6 of the 10 panels had 1/3 or 2/3 of the expected OC voltage. Testing of the individual strings indicated that 1 or 2 strings were dead on each affected panel. Close examination revealed pinpoint heat damage on inter-cell traces. The diodes tested good. See photo below. I am surprised to see such a high rate of failure. Has anyone else experienced this with these or other panels? Is anyone servicing warranty claims on these ancient panels? I doubt there is much value left in the warranty but I am curious. Thanks in advance. William Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 57693 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jun 26 21:32:44 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 18:32:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mass failure of Siemens SP150s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, William Yes, not as unusual as you might think, BP's did it, Suntec had numerous issues, even Sharp On Fri, Jun 26, 2020, 3:27 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends and colleagues: > > > > I recently performed a service call at a grid-tied installation we did in > 2003. The homeowner noticed the daily consumption had declined to about > 1/3 of typical sometime in the last year. Sure enough 2 of the three > strings (30 mods in total) of Siemens SP150s showed low voltage. > > > > When I tilted up two of the racks to expose one dead string of 10, I found > that 6 of the 10 panels had 1/3 or 2/3 of the expected OC voltage. Testing > of the individual strings indicated that 1 or 2 strings were dead on each > affected panel. > > > > Close examination revealed pinpoint heat damage on inter-cell traces. The > diodes tested good. See photo below. > > > > > > I am surprised to see such a high rate of failure. Has anyone else > experienced this with these or other panels? > > > > Is anyone servicing warranty claims on these ancient panels? I doubt > there is much value left in the warranty but I am curious. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 57693 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jun 26 20:49:59 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 17:49:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW AGS plug/cable Message-ID: Hi all, I have a customer that has a plug with no wires on their XW AGS. I’ve never seen that. 2 questions 1. What pins/tool do I need to install wires into it? Or 2. Where can I buy just the plug and wire harness? Thanks Jay Peltz power. From maverick at mavericksolar.com Fri Jun 26 21:37:15 2020 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 20:37:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW AGS plug/cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay I think I have one you can have. I’ll confirm in the AM. Thank you, Maverick > On Jun 26, 2020, at 8:33 PM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all, > > I have a customer that has a plug with no wires on their XW AGS. > I’ve never seen that. > > 2 questions > > 1. What pins/tool do I need to install wires into it? > Or > 2. Where can I buy just the plug and wire harness? > > Thanks > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From coresolar at gmail.com Sat Jun 27 13:59:29 2020 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 12:59:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Label Durability Message-ID: About ten years ago we set up a test wall of sorts at our company headquarters in New Orleans. The purpose was to monitor the durability/degradation of various materials - including warning labels. We tried to attach a variety of label types: plastic trophy plaques, vinyl stickers, labelmaker tape. We also used various adhesives: sticker OEM adhesive, double-sided tape, "Gorilla Glue", PVC cement. It should be noted that the wall faced southeast and was uncovered, so that it received daily full sun and was exposed to all other environmental conditions (rain, etc). The results today do not look good (attached photo). None of these products would appear to meet the "sufficient durability" requirements of NEC 110.21(B). I am curious if anyone is aware of any similar (but more formalized) product testing? and can share results? Has anyone found a warning label product that performs particularly well over time? -- Corey Shalanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Durability Test Wall.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1293887 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jun 27 15:00:54 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 12:00:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Label Durability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57EB0015-747E-43AC-A4D8-AB66AE7E9955@gmail.com> Hi Corey Well done. Question What is the orientation of this test? Jay Peltz Power. > On Jun 27, 2020, at 10:59 AM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > >  > About ten years ago we set up a test wall of sorts at our company headquarters in New Orleans. The purpose was to monitor the durability/degradation of various materials - including warning labels. We tried to attach a variety of label types: plastic trophy plaques, vinyl stickers, labelmaker tape. We also used various adhesives: sticker OEM adhesive, double-sided tape, "Gorilla Glue", PVC cement. It should be noted that the wall faced southeast and was uncovered, so that it received daily full sun and was exposed to all other environmental conditions (rain, etc). > > The results today do not look good (attached photo). None of these products would appear to meet the "sufficient durability" requirements of NEC 110.21(B). > > I am curious if anyone is aware of any similar (but more formalized) product testing? and can share results? > > Has anyone found a warning label product that performs particularly well over time? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From brian at solarenergy.org Sat Jun 27 18:40:19 2020 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 15:40:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Label Durability In-Reply-To: <57EB0015-747E-43AC-A4D8-AB66AE7E9955@gmail.com> References: <57EB0015-747E-43AC-A4D8-AB66AE7E9955@gmail.com> Message-ID: Very nice. One thing I’d mention is that sufficient durability doesn’t mean it has to last for the lifetime of the system. It’s an item on O&M inspection checklists - “all labels/placards/directories are intact and legible” (with the presumption it’ll last until the next O&M inspection. Of course i get it: residential and even commercial systems often aren’t getting regular “checkups” so to your point, it is important to pick something good that will last. My point is: even if it’s not forever :) Brian > On Jun 27, 2020, at 12:40 PM, Jay wrote: > > Hi Corey > > Well done. > > Question > > What is the orientation of this test? > > Jay > > Peltz Power. > >> On Jun 27, 2020, at 10:59 AM, Corey Shalanski wrote: >> >>  >> About ten years ago we set up a test wall of sorts at our company headquarters in New Orleans. The purpose was to monitor the durability/degradation of various materials - including warning labels. We tried to attach a variety of label types: plastic trophy plaques, vinyl stickers, labelmaker tape. We also used various adhesives: sticker OEM adhesive, double-sided tape, "Gorilla Glue", PVC cement. It should be noted that the wall faced southeast and was uncovered, so that it received daily full sun and was exposed to all other environmental conditions (rain, etc). >> >> The results today do not look good (attached photo). None of these products would appear to meet the "sufficient durability" requirements of NEC 110.21(B). >> >> I am curious if anyone is aware of any similar (but more formalized) product testing? and can share results? >> >> Has anyone found a warning label product that performs particularly well over time? >> >> -- >> Corey Shalanski >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From dahlsolar at gmail.com Sat Jun 27 19:06:58 2020 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Jesse Dahl) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 18:06:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Label Durability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Did you use a sharpie on the box? I wonder how a sharpie or PICA marker would hold up for 10 years. It’s an awesome test though. I love it. Jesse Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 27, 2020, at 12:59 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > >  > About ten years ago we set up a test wall of sorts at our company headquarters in New Orleans. The purpose was to monitor the durability/degradation of various materials - including warning labels. We tried to attach a variety of label types: plastic trophy plaques, vinyl stickers, labelmaker tape. We also used various adhesives: sticker OEM adhesive, double-sided tape, "Gorilla Glue", PVC cement. It should be noted that the wall faced southeast and was uncovered, so that it received daily full sun and was exposed to all other environmental conditions (rain, etc). > > The results today do not look good (attached photo). None of these products would appear to meet the "sufficient durability" requirements of NEC 110.21(B). > > I am curious if anyone is aware of any similar (but more formalized) product testing? and can share results? > > Has anyone found a warning label product that performs particularly well over time? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Jun 27 19:18:14 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 16:18:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Label Durability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7638a29e21080643fc238b8fe7b15984@127.0.0.1> I do not think the sharpie will last more than 5 years or so. I have one here that will fade to unreadable in direct sunlight. Down on the Baja, a Silver colored tarp will make it one summer. The great equalizer El Sol. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 27 Jun 2020 18:06:58 -0500, Jesse Dahl wrote: > Did you use a sharpie on the box? I wonder how a sharpie or PICA marker > would hold up for 10 years. > > It’s an awesome test though. I love it. > > Jesse > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 27, 2020, at 12:59 PM, Corey Shalanski >> wrote: >> >>  >> About ten years ago we set up a test wall of sorts at our company >> headquarters in New Orleans. The purpose was to monitor the >> durability/degradation of various materials - including warning labels. >> We tried to attach a variety of label types: plastic trophy plaques, >> vinyl stickers, labelmaker tape. We also used various adhesives: sticker >> OEM adhesive, double-sided tape, "Gorilla Glue", PVC cement. It should be >> noted that the wall faced southeast and was uncovered, so that it >> received daily full sun and was exposed to all other environmental >> conditions (rain, etc). >> >> The results today do not look good (attached photo). None of these >> products would appear to meet the "sufficient durability" requirements of >> NEC 110.21(B). >> >> I am curious if anyone is aware of any similar (but more formalized) >> product testing? and can share results? >> >> Has anyone found a warning label product that performs particularly well >> over time? >> >> -- >> Corey Shalanski >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org From ray at solarray.com Sat Jun 27 19:18:52 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 17:18:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Label Durability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c8a642b-c391-cb3c-0421-c89905f61d2a@solarray.com> Sharpie fades pretty fast in the sun (1 year?).  Paint pen would do better, but can be messy. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/27/20 5:06 PM, Jesse Dahl wrote: > Did you use a sharpie on the box? I wonder how a sharpie or PICA marker would hold up for 10 years. > > It’s an awesome test though. I love it. > > Jesse > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 27, 2020, at 12:59 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: >> >>  >> About ten years ago we set up a test wall of sorts at our company headquarters in New Orleans. The purpose was to monitor the durability/degradation of various materials - including warning labels. We tried to attach a variety of label types: plastic trophy plaques, vinyl stickers, labelmaker tape. We also used various adhesives: sticker OEM adhesive, double-sided tape, "Gorilla Glue", PVC cement. It should be noted that the wall faced southeast and was uncovered, so that it received daily full sun and was exposed to all other environmental conditions (rain, etc). >> >> The results today do not look good (attached photo). None of these products would appear to meet the "sufficient durability" requirements of NEC 110.21(B). >> >> I am curious if anyone is aware of any similar (but more formalized) product testing? and can share results? >> >> Has anyone found a warning label product that performs particularly well over time? >> >> -- >> Corey Shalanski >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Jun 27 21:26:34 2020 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 19:26:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Label Durability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Great long-term experiment! May I have your permission to use the photo of your test in my classes for AHJs and Fire officials? Some background: The NEC just specifies "of sufficient durability to withstand the environment involved" in 110.21(B), and in an informational note recommends ANSI Z535.4 for colors, format, etc. (OSHA-ish). The IFC 2018 in 1204.5 doesn't specify durability for the environment, but 1201.2 states all systems must comply with NFPA 70, so that includes NEC 110.21(B). However in earlier IFC code cycles 605.11.1.1 did mention weather resistance, again "of sufficient durability to withstand the environment involved" and an informational note recommending UL969 compliance, which covers everything from materials to inks/dyes to adhesives to the surface they are applied to, but also notes that the labels themselves *do not* have to be UL listed. The original CALFIRE labeling guidelines implied that UL969 compliance was required, *and some AHJs around the US added this to their own requirements.* So I'd say look for UL969 compliance for selecting a label manufacturer, and as Brian Mehalic points out there is no requirement for number of years a label needs to last; it's just generally accepted that it must at least last in its environment until the next recommended O&M cycle. However local AHJs may have their own requirements for UL 969 compliance, be sure to check locally. My best one ever...convincing an HOA that they could not require PV system labels to be brown on tan, and that no such labels in fact even existed, and if they did would violate both the NEC and IFC. Or the HOA that went through and painted over the labeling on 6 new PV systems from one PV company the day before final inspection, and billed the residents for the paint job because the "red signs were ugly." The local Fire Marshall had some words with the HOA about that one.... Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP PV Associate NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 11:59 AM Corey Shalanski wrote: > About ten years ago we set up a test wall of sorts at our company > headquarters in New Orleans. The purpose was to monitor the > durability/degradation of various materials - including warning labels. We > tried to attach a variety of label types: plastic trophy plaques, vinyl > stickers, labelmaker tape. We also used various adhesives: sticker OEM > adhesive, double-sided tape, "Gorilla Glue", PVC cement. It should be noted > that the wall faced southeast and was uncovered, so that it received daily > full sun and was exposed to all other environmental conditions (rain, etc). > > The results today do not look good (attached photo). None of these > products would appear to meet the "sufficient durability" requirements of > NEC 110.21(B). > > I am curious if anyone is aware of any similar (but more formalized) > product testing? and can share results? > > Has anyone found a warning label product that performs particularly well > over time? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Sun Jun 28 01:10:10 2020 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 00:10:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Label Durability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jay, The test wall is oriented at 161° S-SE, according to Solmetric's roof azimuth tool . -- Corey On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 12:00 PM wrote: > Hi Corey > > Well done. > > Question > > What is the orientation of this test? > > Jay > > Peltz Power. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Sun Jun 28 11:11:52 2020 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Jesse Dahl) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 10:11:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Label Durability In-Reply-To: <57EB0015-747E-43AC-A4D8-AB66AE7E9955@gmail.com> References: <57EB0015-747E-43AC-A4D8-AB66AE7E9955@gmail.com> Message-ID: I bring up the sharpie because as an electrician that’s what we did, sharpie on boxes. Now that I work on solar and try to explain to folks that are older than me about durability and solar and.... they tend to just blow me off and sharpie away. It would be great to show them with this photo “here is your sharpie” Jesse Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 27, 2020, at 9:46 PM, Jay wrote: > > Hi Corey > > Well done. > > Question > > What is the orientation of this test? > > Jay > > Peltz Power. > >> On Jun 27, 2020, at 10:59 AM, Corey Shalanski wrote: >> >>  >> About ten years ago we set up a test wall of sorts at our company headquarters in New Orleans. The purpose was to monitor the durability/degradation of various materials - including warning labels. We tried to attach a variety of label types: plastic trophy plaques, vinyl stickers, labelmaker tape. We also used various adhesives: sticker OEM adhesive, double-sided tape, "Gorilla Glue", PVC cement. It should be noted that the wall faced southeast and was uncovered, so that it received daily full sun and was exposed to all other environmental conditions (rain, etc). >> >> The results today do not look good (attached photo). None of these products would appear to meet the "sufficient durability" requirements of NEC 110.21(B). >> >> I am curious if anyone is aware of any similar (but more formalized) product testing? and can share results? >> >> Has anyone found a warning label product that performs particularly well over time? >> >> -- >> Corey Shalanski >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From frenergy at psln.com Sun Jun 28 12:17:25 2020 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 09:17:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ADV: Re: Label Durability In-Reply-To: References: <57EB0015-747E-43AC-A4D8-AB66AE7E9955@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Corey,             We almost always use the labels and placards from PV-Labels and have had about the same result as it appears you did in your test.  Of course they last much longer when out of the sun.  There are a variety of "label-maker" tapes (Brady brand), we mostly use vinyl the few times we need to use them in an exposed location.  Do you happen to remember which type of material your labels were? Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 6/28/2020 8:11 AM, Jesse Dahl wrote: > I bring up the sharpie because as an electrician that’s what we did, sharpie on boxes. Now that I work on solar and try to explain to folks that are older than me about durability and solar and.... they tend to just blow me off and sharpie away. It would be great to show them with this photo “here is your sharpie” > > Jesse > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 27, 2020, at 9:46 PM, Jay wrote: >> >> Hi Corey >> >> Well done. >> >> Question >> >> What is the orientation of this test? >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz Power. >> >>> On Jun 27, 2020, at 10:59 AM, Corey Shalanski wrote: >>> >>>  >>> About ten years ago we set up a test wall of sorts at our company headquarters in New Orleans. The purpose was to monitor the durability/degradation of various materials - including warning labels. We tried to attach a variety of label types: plastic trophy plaques, vinyl stickers, labelmaker tape. We also used various adhesives: sticker OEM adhesive, double-sided tape, "Gorilla Glue", PVC cement. It should be noted that the wall faced southeast and was uncovered, so that it received daily full sun and was exposed to all other environmental conditions (rain, etc). >>> >>> The results today do not look good (attached photo). None of these products would appear to meet the "sufficient durability" requirements of NEC 110.21(B). >>> >>> I am curious if anyone is aware of any similar (but more formalized) product testing? and can share results? >>> >>> Has anyone found a warning label product that performs particularly well over time? >>> >>> -- >>> Corey Shalanski >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Jun 28 15:02:44 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 12:02:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Label Durability In-Reply-To: References: <57EB0015-747E-43AC-A4D8-AB66AE7E9955@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sharpie in the JB is fine. Outside, not so fine... Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 10:11:52 -0500, Jesse Dahl wrote: > I bring up the sharpie because as an electrician that’s what we did, > sharpie on boxes. Now that I work on solar and try to explain to folks that > are older than me about durability and solar and.... they tend to just blow > me off and sharpie away. It would be great to show them with this photo > “here is your sharpie” > > Jesse > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 27, 2020, at 9:46 PM, Jay wrote: >> >> Hi Corey >> >> Well done. >> >> Question >> >> What is the orientation of this test? >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz Power. >> >>> On Jun 27, 2020, at 10:59 AM, Corey Shalanski >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> About ten years ago we set up a test wall of sorts at our company >>> headquarters in New Orleans. The purpose was to monitor the >>> durability/degradation of various materials - including warning labels. >>> We tried to attach a variety of label types: plastic trophy plaques, >>> vinyl stickers, labelmaker tape. We also used various adhesives: sticker >>> OEM adhesive, double-sided tape, "Gorilla Glue", PVC cement. It should >>> be noted that the wall faced southeast and was uncovered, so that it >>> received daily full sun and was exposed to all other environmental >>> conditions (rain, etc). >>> >>> The results today do not look good (attached photo). None of these >>> products would appear to meet the "sufficient durability" requirements >>> of NEC 110.21(B). >>> >>> I am curious if anyone is aware of any similar (but more formalized) >>> product testing? and can share results? >>> >>> Has anyone found a warning label product that performs particularly >>> well over time? >>> >>> -- >>> Corey Shalanski >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org From findsolar at herzfeld.org Mon Jun 29 20:42:17 2020 From: findsolar at herzfeld.org (Martin Herzfeld) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 17:42:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Label Durability In-Reply-To: <8c8a642b-c391-cb3c-0421-c89905f61d2a@solarray.com> References: <8c8a642b-c391-cb3c-0421-c89905f61d2a@solarray.com> Message-ID: A. Attached are samples of field applied hazard marking (Photos) on the topic of durability and handwritten. B. 2017 NEC 110.21(B)(2) Field-Applied Hazard Markings. Where caution, warning, or danger signs or labels are required by this Code, the labels shall meet the following requirements: - The label shall be permanently affixed to the equipment or wiring method and *shall not be handwritten* 1. - Exception to (2): Portions of labels or markings that are variable, or that could be *subject to changes, shall be permitted to be handwritten* and shall be legible. In other words, are the portions of labels subject to changes? :) All the best, Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037 Contract Training Provider (CTP) Adjunct Professor, Energy California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, D56, D31, C-7 Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors #7035507 - Since 2006 * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training Provider On Sat, Jun 27, 2020, 4:18 PM Ray wrote: > Sharpie fades pretty fast in the sun (1 year?). Paint pen would do > better, but can be messy. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 6/27/20 5:06 PM, Jesse Dahl wrote: > > Did you use a sharpie on the box? I wonder how a sharpie or PICA marker > would hold up for 10 years. > > > > It’s an awesome test though. I love it. > > > > Jesse > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Jun 27, 2020, at 12:59 PM, Corey Shalanski > wrote: > >> > >>  > >> About ten years ago we set up a test wall of sorts at our company > headquarters in New Orleans. The purpose was to monitor the > durability/degradation of various materials - including warning labels. We > tried to attach a variety of label types: plastic trophy plaques, vinyl > stickers, labelmaker tape. We also used various adhesives: sticker OEM > adhesive, double-sided tape, "Gorilla Glue", PVC cement. It should be noted > that the wall faced southeast and was uncovered, so that it received daily > full sun and was exposed to all other environmental conditions (rain, etc). > >> > >> The results today do not look good (attached photo). None of these > products would appear to meet the "sufficient durability" requirements of > NEC 110.21(B). > >> > >> I am curious if anyone is aware of any similar (but more formalized) > product testing? and can share results? > >> > >> Has anyone found a warning label product that performs particularly > well over time? > >> > >> -- > >> Corey Shalanski > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20200629_173840.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 788884 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 23:16:51 2020 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Jesse Dahl) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 22:16:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Label Durability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <076EB50A-A85D-4BFA-88F1-A5C39E5A4186@gmail.com> That kinda seals the deal on Sharpies. I found Pica ink markers to be better than sharpies anyway. Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 29, 2020, at 7:48 PM, Martin Herzfeld wrote: > >  > > A. Attached are samples of field applied hazard marking (Photos) on the topic of durability and handwritten. > > B. 2017 NEC 110.21(B)(2) Field-Applied Hazard Markings. Where caution, warning, or danger signs or labels are required by this Code, the labels shall meet the following requirements: > > - The label shall be permanently affixed to the equipment or wiring method and shall not be handwritten > - Exception to (2): Portions of labels or markings that are variable, or that could be subject to changes, shall be permitted to be handwritten and shall be legible. > > In other words, are the portions of labels subject to changes? :) > > All the best, > > Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037 > Contract Training Provider (CTP) > Adjunct Professor, Energy > > California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, D56, D31, C-7 > Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation > > Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections > Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 > OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 > CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG > > * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors #7035507 - Since 2006 > * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training Provider > >> On Sat, Jun 27, 2020, 4:18 PM Ray wrote: >> Sharpie fades pretty fast in the sun (1 year?). Paint pen would do >> better, but can be messy. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 6/27/20 5:06 PM, Jesse Dahl wrote: >> > Did you use a sharpie on the box? I wonder how a sharpie or PICA marker would hold up for 10 years. >> > >> > It’s an awesome test though. I love it. >> > >> > Jesse >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> >> On Jun 27, 2020, at 12:59 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: >> >> >> >>  >> >> About ten years ago we set up a test wall of sorts at our company headquarters in New Orleans. The purpose was to monitor the durability/degradation of various materials - including warning labels. We tried to attach a variety of label types: plastic trophy plaques, vinyl stickers, labelmaker tape. We also used various adhesives: sticker OEM adhesive, double-sided tape, "Gorilla Glue", PVC cement. It should be noted that the wall faced southeast and was uncovered, so that it received daily full sun and was exposed to all other environmental conditions (rain, etc). >> >> >> >> The results today do not look good (attached photo). None of these products would appear to meet the "sufficient durability" requirements of NEC 110.21(B). >> >> >> >> I am curious if anyone is aware of any similar (but more formalized) product testing? and can share results? >> >> >> >> Has anyone found a warning label product that performs particularly well over time? >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Corey Shalanski >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > <20200629_173840.jpg> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 17:18:15 2020 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 16:18:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Label Durability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jesse, We did in fact use Sharpie on the test wall. I made the mistake of writing the "start date" for the test wall in Sharpie, but I think it only lasted the first couple years. As others have pointed out, the ink will usually fade and become illegible within a few years - depending on the level of direct sunlight exposure. I've got plenty of photos from site re-visits showing labels with handwritten numbers that are no longer visible. As Martin pointed out, it's questionable whether labels can even include handwritten text based on NEC 110.21(B)(2)... So, I guess in response to your follow-up comment, feel free to show those folks this photo along with the message “here is your sharpie” (it's completely vanished). We experimented with nylon labelmaker tape and found that to generally hold up better than Sharpie. We also tried out a handheld engraving tool (for plastic/phenolic labels), but that was kind of a non-starter. At one point we even invested in a full-fledged engraving machine. I believe it came with its own software, and we purchased sheets of blank placard material. Unfortunately, we could never get our machine operator to turn the corner on making the label creation process efficient & worthwhile--the last I looked, the machine was sitting in a dark corner of the lunchroom. I agree with Brian/Dan that the different components in a PV system have different expected lifespans, and we can't reasonably expect all components to last as long as the longest-lasting component (PV modules). Labels seem to be one of those components that we can anticipate replacing every 5-10 years. -- Corey On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 6:06 PM wrote: > > Did you use a sharpie on the box? I wonder how a sharpie or PICA marker > would hold up for 10 years. > > It’s an awesome test though. I love it. > > Jesse > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jun 30 18:10:12 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 15:10:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Label Durability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <162750bfa1edc7e664e8d7355aed0652@127.0.0.1> If there was something available like a sharpie with acrylic latex I would use it more. Just easier to put it in the JB and know it will last. As far as code, I just do what the inspector wants. Luckily I do not see them much Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 16:18:15 -0500, Corey Shalanski wrote: Hi Jesse, We did in fact use Sharpie on the test wall. I made the mistake of writing the "start date" for the test wall in Sharpie, but I think it only lasted the first couple years. As others have pointed out, the ink will usually fade and become illegible within a few years - depending on the level of direct sunlight exposure. I've got plenty of photos from site re-visits showing labels with handwritten numbers that are no longer visible. As Martin pointed out, it's questionable whether labels can even include handwritten text based on NEC 110.21(B)(2)... So, I guess in response to your follow-up comment, feel free to show those folks this photo along with the message "here is your sharpie" (it's completely vanished). We experimented with nylon labelmaker tape and found that to generally hold up better than Sharpie. We also tried out a handheld engraving tool (for plastic/phenolic labels), but that was kind of a non-starter. At one point we even invested in a full-fledged engraving machine. I believe it came with its own software, and we purchased sheets of blank placard material. Unfortunately, we could never get our machine operator to turn the corner on making the label creation process efficient border-left: 1px solid #cccccc; padding-left: 1ex;"> Did you use a sharpie on the box? I wonder how a sharpie or PICA marker would hold up for 10 years. It's an awesome test though. I love it. Jesse Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:dahlsolar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 19:03:12 2020 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 17:03:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Label Durability In-Reply-To: <162750bfa1edc7e664e8d7355aed0652@127.0.0.1> References: <162750bfa1edc7e664e8d7355aed0652@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: And of course with standard "outdoor" inks from sticker printing outfits online (like promotional bumper stickers I've done) red and yellow fade first in the sun--exactly the colors we need the most! Enamel paint markers last longer in the sun than Sharpies in my experience, but always depends on the surface. Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP PV Associate NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 4:10 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > If there was something available like a sharpie with acrylic latex I would > use it more. Just easier to put it in the JB and know it will last. As far > as code, I just do what the inspector wants. Luckily I do not see them much[image: > Wink] > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 16:18:15 -0500, Corey Shalanski > wrote: > > Hi Jesse, > > We did in fact use Sharpie on the test wall. I made the mistake of writing > the "start date" for the test wall in Sharpie, but I think it only lasted > the first couple years. As others have pointed out, the ink will usually > fade and become illegible within a few years - depending on the level of > direct sunlight exposure. I've got plenty of photos from site re-visits > showing labels with handwritten numbers that are no longer visible. As > Martin pointed out, it's questionable whether labels can even include > handwritten text based on NEC 110.21(B)(2)... So, I guess in response to > your follow-up comment, feel free to show those folks this photo along with > the message "here is your sharpie" (it's completely vanished). > > We experimented with nylon labelmaker tape and found that to generally > hold up better than Sharpie. We also tried out a handheld engraving tool > (for plastic/phenolic labels), but that was kind of a non-starter. At one > point we even invested in a full-fledged engraving machine. I believe it > came with its own software, and we purchased sheets of blank placard > material. Unfortunately, we could never get our machine operator to turn > the corner on making the label creation process efficient & worthwhile--the > last I looked, the machine was sitting in a dark corner of the lunchroom. > > I agree with Brian/Dan that the different components in a PV system have > different expected lifespans, and we can't reasonably expect all components > to last as long as the longest-lasting component (PV modules). Labels seem > to be one of those components that we can anticipate replacing every 5-10 > years. > > -- > Corey > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Wed Jul 1 19:26:09 2020 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 17:26:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Seeking one M215-60-2LL-S22-IG Enphase Message-ID: Hello, Mechanics~ Enphase will "warranty replace" my client's failed unit--sort of. The ones they're shipping for replacement purposes are a different size & shape which may be a challenge to retrofit onto the Andalay PV module. Andalay was among the first "AC solar modules"--sort of. They integrate the M215 into the frame which is just fine--until now. Anyway, I may just buy one M215-60-2LL-S22-IG or the Siemens branded clone assuming that will integrate exactly the same with Enlighten, etc. Can any of the List participants confirm if the Siemens version will identically substitute? If anyone has one of these orphans (MC4 DC plugs & integrated ground), kindly contact me off-list with pricing including parcel ground shipping to CO 81147. Black or silver would be fine; new/never installed is preferred. Thanks in advance; The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 20:49:28 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 17:49:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Seeking one M215-60-2LL-S22-IG Enphase In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I may have one, will look tonight Jerry On Wed, Jul 1, 2020, 4:26 PM Mick Abraham wrote: > Hello, Mechanics~ > > Enphase will "warranty replace" my client's failed unit--sort of. The ones > they're shipping for replacement purposes are a different size & shape > which may be a challenge to retrofit onto the Andalay PV module. > > Andalay was among the first "AC solar modules"--sort of. They integrate > the M215 into the frame which is just fine--until now. Anyway, I may just > buy one > > M215-60-2LL-S22-IG or the Siemens branded clone assuming that will > integrate exactly the same with > Enlighten, etc. Can any of the List participants confirm if the Siemens > version will identically substitute? > > If anyone has one of these orphans (MC4 DC plugs & integrated ground), > kindly contact me off-list with pricing including parcel ground shipping to > CO 81147. Black or silver would be fine; new/never installed is preferred. > > Thanks in advance; The Wrench List is the Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed Jul 1 22:24:40 2020 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 02:24:40 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Seeking CS modules Message-ID: Please contact me off list if you have 2 or 3 CS6P 200P mods. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 16:45:37 2020 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 10:45:37 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Label Durability In-Reply-To: <076EB50A-A85D-4BFA-88F1-A5C39E5A4186@gmail.com> References: <076EB50A-A85D-4BFA-88F1-A5C39E5A4186@gmail.com> Message-ID: Aloha Corey, Mahalo for doing this and sharing. I would love to see and inspect the systems I installed in the Bay Area circa 2007-2010. It’s really awesome to see some real world testing. When Borrego Solar had a residential unit we used to physically stamp our placards but they were black with a chrome finish( see attached photo). I bet those are faring well these days. We also used to drill, fasten (rivet) and seal these to all appropriate equipment. Thanks again for sharing. [image: image.png] *James B. Rudolph* *Electrical Contractor C-36080* *ES Electrician # 10816* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* *808.313.9701* On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 7:11 PM Jesse Dahl wrote: > That kinda seals the deal on Sharpies. I found Pica ink markers to be > better than sharpies anyway. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 29, 2020, at 7:48 PM, Martin Herzfeld > wrote: > >  > > A. Attached are samples of field applied hazard marking (Photos) on the > topic of durability and handwritten. > > B. 2017 NEC 110.21(B)(2) Field-Applied Hazard Markings. Where caution, > warning, or danger signs or labels are required by this Code, the labels > shall meet the following requirements: > > - The label shall be permanently affixed to the equipment or wiring > method and *shall not be handwritten* > > 1. > > - Exception to (2): Portions of labels or markings that are variable, > or that could be *subject to changes, shall be permitted to be > handwritten* and shall be legible. > > > In other words, are the portions of labels subject to changes? :) > > > All the best, > > Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified > Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC > 10037 > Contract Training Provider (CTP) > Adjunct Professor, Energy > > California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, > D56, D31, C-7 > Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, > Instrumentation > > Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections > Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 > OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 > CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG > > * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors > #7035507 - Since 2006 > * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy > Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training Provider > > On Sat, Jun 27, 2020, 4:18 PM Ray wrote: > >> Sharpie fades pretty fast in the sun (1 year?). Paint pen would do >> better, but can be messy. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 6/27/20 5:06 PM, Jesse Dahl wrote: >> > Did you use a sharpie on the box? I wonder how a sharpie or PICA marker >> would hold up for 10 years. >> > >> > It’s an awesome test though. I love it. >> > >> > Jesse >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> >> On Jun 27, 2020, at 12:59 PM, Corey Shalanski >> wrote: >> >> >> >>  >> >> About ten years ago we set up a test wall of sorts at our company >> headquarters in New Orleans. The purpose was to monitor the >> durability/degradation of various materials - including warning labels. We >> tried to attach a variety of label types: plastic trophy plaques, vinyl >> stickers, labelmaker tape. We also used various adhesives: sticker OEM >> adhesive, double-sided tape, "Gorilla Glue", PVC cement. It should be noted >> that the wall faced southeast and was uncovered, so that it received daily >> full sun and was exposed to all other environmental conditions (rain, etc). >> >> >> >> The results today do not look good (attached photo). None of these >> products would appear to meet the "sufficient durability" requirements of >> NEC 110.21(B). >> >> >> >> I am curious if anyone is aware of any similar (but more formalized) >> product testing? and can share results? >> >> >> >> Has anyone found a warning label product that performs particularly >> well over time? >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Corey Shalanski >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> <20200629_173840.jpg> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 716129 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Thu Jul 2 21:02:30 2020 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 20:02:30 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery question Message-ID: Greetings All, I have inherited a stand alone system at a state park originally installed by Currin Corporation out of Michigan (I think that he did work in a number of state parks in the region). Good install, but the custom designed 72 volt controller (a Canadian company that slips my mind at the moment) crapped out. I replaced it with a 72 volt midnite controller and all is well except... The original system used a dc relay to disconnect the 72 volt dc submersible well pump. I kept the relay in the circuit controlled by the midnite aux port. Since I was unable to read any programming from the old controller, I am not sure where to set the cut-in and cut-out voltages for the pump relay. Battery bank: 12 Deka MK 8G27 (72 volts, 176 ah) Pump current: unknown at the moment Anyone? Thanks, Kris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Jul 6 22:02:08 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 19:02:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing AC relay in FX inverter Message-ID: <2530ec059ada3a4b0d6fdf0289cb2b0e@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I have several FX inverters with smoked AC relays. The relay is a Deltrol 375P. The P stands for PC mount. All I can find are 375TM for top mount. Does anyone know if these are interchangeable? Have any of you tried replacing this relay? Thank in advance. William Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Tue Jul 7 00:54:03 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 21:54:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing AC relay in FX inverter In-Reply-To: <2530ec059ada3a4b0d6fdf0289cb2b0e@mail.gmail.com> References: <2530ec059ada3a4b0d6fdf0289cb2b0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <420011fa-0d1d-4e88-546e-13f36599f9bf@coveoregon.com> The sketch on the datasheet shows that the TM version doesn't have the solder tab on the connector. So, no not interchangeable. On 7/6/2020 7:02 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > I have several FX inverters with smoked AC relays.  The relay is a > Deltrol 375P.  The P stands for PC mount.  All I can find are 375TM > for top mount.  Does anyone know if these are interchangeable? > > Have any of you tried replacing this relay? > > Thank in advance. > > William Miller > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Tue Jul 7 18:17:59 2020 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 16:17:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 72V Battery question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14864cfa-cf05-2246-4b07-f487b3836c44@sindelarsolar.com> Kris, I see that apparently to date no Wrench has responded to your question, so I'll give it a wild-ass go. Although I've never used or even seen a 72V controller, I'll suspect from your description that it was made by Dan Pringle of Solar Converters, now long gone. But based on the limited information you have provided, I don't understand your question. A DC pump is not normally regulated by voltage, but by either a pressure switch, if it's a single-pump pressurized system, or by a float switch in a dual-pump system with a storage cistern. Cut-in and cut-out voltages would be set only to protect the batteries from overvoltage and excessive discharge, and these settings would be independent of what was being operated, in this case the pump. Given this, if the DC relay (with a 12V coil to work with the Midnite aux port) is there to set these battery protective limits, I would suggest that you determine the conventional LBCO and HBCO voltages for a 12V battery and multiply by 6 for 72V. Most likely at 72V, the current would be quite low unless it's a huge pump, and DC pumps in general have little surge, so a fairly low LBCO would be more acceptable than with a lower voltage system, all other issues equal (which, of course, they never are...). Allan On 7/2/2020 7:02 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > Greetings All, > I have inherited a stand alone system at a state park originally > installed by Currin Corporation out of Michigan (I think that he did > work in a number of state parks in the region).  Good install, but the > custom designed 72 volt controller (a Canadian company that slips my > mind at the moment) crapped out.  I replaced it with a 72 volt midnite > controller and all is well except... > The original system used a dc relay to disconnect the 72 volt dc > submersible well pump.  I kept the relay in the circuit controlled by > the midnite aux port. Since I was unable to read any programming from > the old controller, I am not sure where to set the cut-in and cut-out > voltages for the pump relay. > Battery bank: 12 Deka MK 8G27 (72 volts, 176 ah) > Pump current: unknown at the moment > Anyone? > Thanks, > Kris > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 19:16:46 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 16:16:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 72V Battery question In-Reply-To: <14864cfa-cf05-2246-4b07-f487b3836c44@sindelarsolar.com> References: <14864cfa-cf05-2246-4b07-f487b3836c44@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <63180DB5-D040-4E02-A0F9-4FB7510CE0A5@gmail.com> Hi Allan and Kris, Is it possible the pump was programmed to pump when the batteries were pretty full, or at least not low? IE don’t pump at night. If so then on a 72v System which is 3 X 24v, say a low start voltage of around 78v. It would be 26v on 24v system. Not sure if this helps or not Jay Peltz power. > On Jul 7, 2020, at 3:20 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > >  > Kris, > > I see that apparently to date no Wrench has responded to your question, so I'll give it a wild-ass go. Although I've never used or even seen a 72V controller, I'll suspect from your description that it was made by Dan Pringle of Solar Converters, now long gone. > > But based on the limited information you have provided, I don't understand your question. A DC pump is not normally regulated by voltage, but by either a pressure switch, if it's a single-pump pressurized system, or by a float switch in a dual-pump system with a storage cistern. Cut-in and cut-out voltages would be set only to protect the batteries from overvoltage and excessive discharge, and these settings would be independent of what was being operated, in this case the pump. Given this, if the DC relay (with a 12V coil to work with the Midnite aux port) is there to set these battery protective limits, I would suggest that you determine the conventional LBCO and HBCO voltages for a 12V battery and multiply by 6 for 72V. Most likely at 72V, the current would be quite low unless it's a huge pump, and DC pumps in general have little surge, so a fairly low LBCO would be more acceptable than with a lower voltage system, all other issues equal (which, of course, they never are...). > > Allan > > On 7/2/2020 7:02 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: >> Greetings All, >> I have inherited a stand alone system at a state park originally installed by Currin Corporation out of Michigan (I think that he did work in a number of state parks in the region). Good install, but the custom designed 72 volt controller (a Canadian company that slips my mind at the moment) crapped out. I replaced it with a 72 volt midnite controller and all is well except... >> The original system used a dc relay to disconnect the 72 volt dc submersible well pump. I kept the relay in the circuit controlled by the midnite aux port. Since I was unable to read any programming from the old controller, I am not sure where to set the cut-in and cut-out voltages for the pump relay. >> Battery bank: 12 Deka MK 8G27 (72 volts, 176 ah) >> Pump current: unknown at the moment >> Anyone? >> Thanks, >> Kris >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Wed Jul 8 04:07:53 2020 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 01:07:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind Turbine Message-ID: Looking for recommendations on a wind turbine from the Wrenches. Wondering what people are liking out there right now. I know it’s a pretty skinny market and lots of junk but my client would like to replace an aging model that he has in a low to moderate wind area, not spend too much money but spend enough to get reliable. Ideally around 1kW but smaller is ok. Ron earthRight Products - Solareagle.com Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products 1-877-925-2929 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 06:55:15 2020 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 06:55:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind Turbine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ron, I installed a lot of the Bergey XL.1 until they stopped production. I just replaced blades on one last week and my first install of one of the first ones manufactured in 2001 is still working fine. We took in down about 10 years ago for preventive maintenance and replaced the brushes and blades though both were still in good shape. Most problems have been blades, brushes and a few tower failures mostly due to customer neglect or violent storms. I installed a Pika 1.6 kw at my home about 4 years ago and fell in love with that machine. Pika solved the Blade root attachment weakness found on the Bergey as well as sound issues and performance. Unfortunately they stopped production due to low sales. I ran mine for a year and a half and almost eliminated my generator in a low wind speed site but att he same time saw it perform flawlessly in high winds putting out well over 2500 watts and regulating my batteries at float with no dump loads needed. I got my first order for one and called Pika to order one but they had already stopped production and were not going to make any more. I had sold a customer a complete upgrade of his system which included upgrading from a Xantrex SW Plus to dual Outback inverters, going from 24v to 48v, and directly replacing his Bergey with a Pika, and new Aquion batteries. Sine we had already done the rest of the system, I ended up selling mine to him to keep him happy. I dearly miss that machine. Since Pika sold out to Generac, I’m hanging on a glimmer of hope that the turbine production could be resurrected. Otherwise, the only new turbine I have installed is a 1 kw SuperWind, made in Germany. It is on a 40’ tilt up guyed tower on a mountaintop transmitter site. It has performed as expected with the only problem being susceptible to icing and the blade hub freezing to the nacelle. It is all white so the sun can’t help defrost it. Very nice workmanship but it also has a controller and dump load In addition to pitching blades. Similar cost as the Pika. I don’t have any data on how much the dump load has interacted with the controller. This is a high wind site. I’m not sure how it would perform in low winds. We put it up in November and it survived the winter. If you could find a used Pika, that would be my choice but I haven’t found one yet myself. Let me know If you find anything else. Wind Wrenches out there. ... respond ! John Blittersdorf CV Wind Service John.blittersdorf at gmail.com 802-770-8625 On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 4:08 AM Ron Young wrote: > Looking for recommendations on a wind turbine from the Wrenches. Wondering > what people are liking out there right now. I know it’s a pretty skinny > market and lots of junk but my client would like to replace an aging model > that he has in a low to moderate wind area, not spend too much money but > spend enough to get reliable. Ideally around 1kW but smaller is ok. > > Ron > > earthRight Products - Solareagle.com > Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products > 1-877-925-2929 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 08:29:42 2020 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 06:29:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind Turbine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Ron -- Please contact me off-list. We work off-grid only, and deal with a LOT of small wind systems, especially replacements for older, broken turbines and towers, and failed controllers. I would be happy to discuss some options with you. Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP PV Associate NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 2:08 AM Ron Young wrote: > Looking for recommendations on a wind turbine from the Wrenches. Wondering > what people are liking out there right now. I know it’s a pretty skinny > market and lots of junk but my client would like to replace an aging model > that he has in a low to moderate wind area, not spend too much money but > spend enough to get reliable. Ideally around 1kW but smaller is ok. > > Ron > > earthRight Products - Solareagle.com > Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products > 1-877-925-2929 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Wed Jul 8 08:33:20 2020 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 08:33:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind Turbine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34651700-bece-199b-5a0e-806468604633@four-winds-energy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Wed Jul 8 09:06:12 2020 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 09:06:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind Turbine In-Reply-To: <34651700-bece-199b-5a0e-806468604633@four-winds-energy.com> References: <34651700-bece-199b-5a0e-806468604633@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: <002101d65528$8e2c5090$aa84f1b0$@mindspring.com> Morning fellow wrenchers. There is a newer Wind turbine company based in the North East called Kohilo Wind. Link below http://kohilowind.com/about-kohilo-wind/ thx peter Giroux From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Roy Butler Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 8:33 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wind Turbine Ron and John and all, SD Wind Energy out of Texas is representing what was the Proven/Kingspan down wind turbines. They have a 3 and 6kW turbine now but I heard through the grapevine that they may have a 1kW in the near future. Price is a bit high but they are solid machines. https://sd-windenergy.com/ Other folks have been using the Braun turbine out of Germany but that's really spendy. The Whisper line was good, then Southwest Wind Power bought it, they went under, a company from India bought it, then it went to Japan and last I heard it's now owned by a Chinese company.....buyer beware! Although there are a couple of small turbine manufacturer's in the US making 1kW to 2kW machines, I am assuming you want something reliable so you may want to steer clear of those. I won't name names here. And of course there are all those tempting units for sale on Amazon and Ebay....run screaming from the room on those. Slim pickings out there, the small wind industry began a rapid decline back around 2012 when the PV prices started dropping. Most of us wind weanies moved to solar installations to help support our wind habit and decreased wind sales put many turbine manufacturers out of business. Anyway, best of luck on your search and if you find something and care to run it by me off list please do so! Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 7/8/2020 6:55 AM, John Blittersdorf wrote: Ron, I installed a lot of the Bergey XL.1 until they stopped production. I just replaced blades on one last week and my first install of one of the first ones manufactured in 2001 is still working fine. We took in down about 10 years ago for preventive maintenance and replaced the brushes and blades though both were still in good shape. Most problems have been blades, brushes and a few tower failures mostly due to customer neglect or violent storms. I installed a Pika 1.6 kw at my home about 4 years ago and fell in love with that machine. Pika solved the Blade root attachment weakness found on the Bergey as well as sound issues and performance. Unfortunately they stopped production due to low sales. I ran mine for a year and a half and almost eliminated my generator in a low wind speed site but att he same time saw it perform flawlessly in high winds putting out well over 2500 watts and regulating my batteries at float with no dump loads needed. I got my first order for one and called Pika to order one but they had already stopped production and were not going to make any more. I had sold a customer a complete upgrade of his system which included upgrading from a Xantrex SW Plus to dual Outback inverters, going from 24v to 48v, and directly replacing his Bergey with a Pika, and new Aquion batteries. Sine we had already done the rest of the system, I ended up selling mine to him to keep him happy. I dearly miss that machine. Since Pika sold out to Generac, I’m hanging on a glimmer of hope that the turbine production could be resurrected. Otherwise, the only new turbine I have installed is a 1 kw SuperWind, made in Germany. It is on a 40’ tilt up guyed tower on a mountaintop transmitter site. It has performed as expected with the only problem being susceptible to icing and the blade hub freezing to the nacelle. It is all white so the sun can’t help defrost it. Very nice workmanship but it also has a controller and dump load In addition to pitching blades. Similar cost as the Pika. I don’t have any data on how much the dump load has interacted with the controller. This is a high wind site. I’m not sure how it would perform in low winds. We put it up in November and it survived the winter. If you could find a used Pika, that would be my choice but I haven’t found one yet myself. Let me know If you find anything else. Wind Wrenches out there. ... respond ! John Blittersdorf CV Wind Service John.blittersdorf at gmail.com 802-770-8625 On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 4:08 AM Ron Young > wrote: Looking for recommendations on a wind turbine from the Wrenches. Wondering what people are liking out there right now. I know it’s a pretty skinny market and lots of junk but my client would like to replace an aging model that he has in a low to moderate wind area, not spend too much money but spend enough to get reliable. Ideally around 1kW but smaller is ok. Ron earthRight Products - Solareagle.com Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products 1-877-925-2929 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 13:58:22 2020 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 12:58:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLPE Mapping Message-ID: Wrenches, After 10+ years of MLPE (microinverters/optimizers) gaining traction in the industry, I have noticed one stubborn issue that somehow still haunts us. I think we as installers have all been there at some point: laying down the final module in an array, high fives all around, time to look at the close-out checklist that our pesky operations manager handed to us on our way out the door, and then realizing that we forgot to peel off the MLPE serial number stickers (or otherwise record them) in order to make a map... Even when installers forget to record just one serial number, retrieving it can be difficult and time-consuming. Raise your hand if you've ever attached your cell phone/camera to an extendable pole and slid it under the array in hopes of catching that one forgotten label! In this age of smart devices, I anxiously await the day when MLPE will be able to map themselves. But until that day comes, I am wondering if anyone has developed or knows of a tried-and-true foolproof method for capturing MLPE serial numbers? -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at sesre.com Wed Jul 8 14:25:56 2020 From: matt at sesre.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 18:25:56 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLPE Mapping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Definitely a pesky problem. Buy Tigomart panels where MLPEs are pre-integrated and peel in warehouse or on ground. Since those are difficult to find lately, consider Tigos clipped onto panel frames in your warehouse or on the ground. When we go the Tigo route we prep on the ground and build our map as part of that process. If you go with Tigo F’s you don’t even need to map! You sacrifice panel level visibility but, as far as I can tell, MLPEs are far more likely to fail than a reputable panel. I’d really like to know why all MLPEs don’t go the clip-on route. Matt Matt Partymiller General Manager Solar Energy Solutions, LLC 877-312-7456 matt at sesre.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Corey Shalanski Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 1:58 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLPE Mapping Wrenches, After 10+ years of MLPE (microinverters/optimizers) gaining traction in the industry, I have noticed one stubborn issue that somehow still haunts us. I think we as installers have all been there at some point: laying down the final module in an array, high fives all around, time to look at the close-out checklist that our pesky operations manager handed to us on our way out the door, and then realizing that we forgot to peel off the MLPE serial number stickers (or otherwise record them) in order to make a map... Even when installers forget to record just one serial number, retrieving it can be difficult and time-consuming. Raise your hand if you've ever attached your cell phone/camera to an extendable pole and slid it under the array in hopes of catching that one forgotten label! In this age of smart devices, I anxiously await the day when MLPE will be able to map themselves. But until that day comes, I am wondering if anyone has developed or knows of a tried-and-true foolproof method for capturing MLPE serial numbers? -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Wed Jul 8 14:18:30 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 14:18:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLPE Mapping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We scan the barcodes with a smart phone app which automatically creates an excel file for upload(there are many apps to choose from), and number them also 1,2,3...etc with a sharpie for mounting. If scanned in the right order, the row number in the excel file with correspond with the physical number and barcode of the respective MLPE. It's easy to remember the # sequence in which they were mounted. I gave up on the Solaredge scanning/mapping app a long time ago. Way too clunky for me. On 7/8/2020 1:58:40 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: Wrenches, After 10+ years of MLPE (microinverters/optimizers) gaining traction in the industry, I have noticed one stubborn issue that somehow still haunts us. I think we as installers have all been there at some point: laying down the final module in an array, high fives all around, time to look at the close-out checklist that our pesky operations manager handed to us on our way out the door, and then realizing that we forgot to peel off the MLPE serial number stickers (or otherwise record them) in order to make a map... Even when installers forget to record just one serial number, retrieving it can be difficult and time-consuming. Raise your hand if you've ever attached your cell phone/camera to an extendable pole and slid it under the array in hopes of catching that one forgotten label! In this age of smart devices, I anxiously await the day when MLPE will be able to map themselves. But until that day comes, I am wondering if anyone has developed or knows of a tried-and-true foolproof method for capturing MLPE serial numbers? -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Wed Jul 8 18:19:02 2020 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 16:19:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLPE Mapping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I use that DIY ladder module-lift that was featured in HomePower many years ago and was just recently thinking of putting some stickers on the top of it so that you clearly see them.... something to the effect of “Did you scan optos/micros and take wire management photos?” That should serve as a reminder before any mods make it to the roof. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 > On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:18 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > We scan the barcodes with a smart phone app which automatically creates an excel file for upload(there are many apps to choose from), and number them also 1,2,3...etc with a sharpie for mounting. If scanned in the right order, the row number in the excel file with correspond with the physical number and barcode of the respective MLPE. > It's easy to remember the # sequence in which they were mounted. > I gave up on the Solaredge scanning/mapping app a long time ago. Way too clunky for me. >> On 7/8/2020 1:58:40 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: >> >> Wrenches, >> >> After 10+ years of MLPE (microinverters/optimizers) gaining traction in the industry, I have noticed one stubborn issue that somehow still haunts us. I think we as installers have all been there at some point: laying down the final module in an array, high fives all around, time to look at the close-out checklist that our pesky operations manager handed to us on our way out the door, and then realizing that we forgot to peel off the MLPE serial number stickers (or otherwise record them) in order to make a map... >> >> Even when installers forget to record just one serial number, retrieving it can be difficult and time-consuming. Raise your hand if you've ever attached your cell phone/camera to an extendable pole and slid it under the array in hopes of catching that one forgotten label! >> >> In this age of smart devices, I anxiously await the day when MLPE will be able to map themselves. But until that day comes, I am wondering if anyone has developed or knows of a tried-and-true foolproof method for capturing MLPE serial numbers? >> >> -- >> Corey Shalanski >> Jah Light Solar >> Portland, Jamaica >> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Jul 8 21:05:56 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 18:05:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLPE Mapping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Our crews have been doing daily reports that include a Google Photos link of the work they accomplished that day. Creating the shared photos link is so easy now with both Android and iPhone that we've had widespread adoption among our crews. It really is awesome. Anyway, part of their report is to include a photo of the micro or optimizer map (stickers on our plan set, typically, or cardboard). I think being in the habit of doing the daily reports really helps to trigger the reminder to complete the map, and now we have no more lost paper micro maps to deal with. August Luminalt On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 3:19 PM Benn Kilburn wrote: > I use that DIY ladder module-lift that was featured in HomePower many > years ago and was just recently thinking of putting some stickers on the > top of it so that you clearly see them.... something to the effect of “Did > you scan optos/micros and take wire management photos?” > > That should serve as a reminder before any mods make it to the roof. > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy > 780-906-7807 > > On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:18 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > We scan the barcodes with a smart phone app which automatically creates an > excel file for upload(there are many apps to choose from), and number them > also 1,2,3...etc with a sharpie for mounting. If scanned in the right > order, the row number in the excel file with correspond with the physical > number and barcode of the respective MLPE. > It's easy to remember the # sequence in which they were mounted. > I gave up on the Solaredge scanning/mapping app a long time ago. Way too > clunky for me. > > On 7/8/2020 1:58:40 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > Wrenches, > > After 10+ years of MLPE (microinverters/optimizers) gaining traction in > the industry, I have noticed one stubborn issue that somehow still haunts > us. I think we as installers have all been there at some point: laying down > the final module in an array, high fives all around, time to look at the > close-out checklist that our pesky operations manager handed to us on our > way out the door, and then realizing that we forgot to peel off the MLPE > serial number stickers (or otherwise record them) in order to make a map... > > Even when installers forget to record just one serial number, retrieving > it can be difficult and time-consuming. Raise your hand if you've ever > attached your cell phone/camera to an extendable pole and slid it under the > array in hopes of catching that one forgotten label! > > In this age of smart devices, I anxiously await the day when MLPE will be > able to map themselves. But until that day comes, I am wondering if anyone > has developed or knows of a tried-and-true foolproof method for capturing > MLPE serial numbers? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood > Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change > listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or > update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Jul 9 08:56:31 2020 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 08:56:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind Turbine In-Reply-To: <002101d65528$8e2c5090$aa84f1b0$@mindspring.com> References: <34651700-bece-199b-5a0e-806468604633@four-winds-energy.com> <002101d65528$8e2c5090$aa84f1b0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: RUN from the room when it comes to the Kohilo! This ole boy is in my backyard and I'm currently trying to clean up one of their projects. They kinda went the way of Wind Tamer, whereas they had to add solar to meet their output claims. Christopher On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 9:06 AM wrote: > Morning fellow wrenchers. There is a newer Wind turbine company based in > the North East called Kohilo Wind. Link below > > > > http://kohilowind.com/about-kohilo-wind/ > > > > > > thx > > peter Giroux > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Roy Butler > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 8, 2020 8:33 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Wind Turbine > > > > Ron and John and all, > > SD Wind Energy out of Texas is representing what was the Proven/Kingspan > down wind turbines. They have a 3 and 6kW turbine now but I heard through > the grapevine that they may have a 1kW in the near future. Price is a bit > high but they are solid machines. > https://sd-windenergy.com/ > > Other folks have been using the Braun turbine out of Germany but that's > really spendy. > > The Whisper line was good, then Southwest Wind Power bought it, they went > under, a company from India bought it, then it went to Japan > and last I heard it's now owned by a Chinese company.....buyer beware! > > Although there are a couple of small turbine manufacturer's in the US > making 1kW to 2kW machines, I am assuming you want something reliable so > you may want to steer clear of those. I won't name names here. And of > course there are all those tempting units for sale on Amazon and Ebay....run > screaming from the room on those. > > Slim pickings out there, the small wind industry began a rapid decline > back around 2012 when the PV prices started dropping. Most of us wind > weanies > moved to solar installations to help support our wind habit and decreased > wind sales put many turbine manufacturers out of business. > > Anyway, best of luck on your search and if you find something and care to > run it by me off list please do so! > > Roy Butler > > Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC > > 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 > > 607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com > > > > > > Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, > > a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. > > > > > > On 7/8/2020 6:55 AM, John Blittersdorf wrote: > > Ron, I installed a lot of the Bergey XL.1 until they stopped production. > I just replaced blades on one last week and my first install of one of > the first ones manufactured in 2001 is still working fine. We took in down > about 10 years ago for preventive maintenance and replaced the brushes and > blades though both were still in good shape. Most problems have been > blades, brushes and a few tower failures mostly due to customer neglect or > violent storms. I installed a Pika > > 1.6 kw at my home about 4 years ago and fell in love with that machine. > Pika solved the Blade root attachment weakness found on the Bergey as well > as sound issues and performance. Unfortunately they stopped production due > to low sales. I ran mine for a year and a half and almost eliminated my > generator in a low wind speed site but att he same time saw it perform > flawlessly in high winds putting out well over 2500 watts and regulating my > batteries at float with no dump loads needed. I got my first order for one > and called Pika to order one but they had already stopped production and > were not going to make any more. I had sold a customer a complete upgrade > of his system which included upgrading from a Xantrex SW Plus to dual > Outback inverters, going from 24v to 48v, and directly replacing his Bergey > with a Pika, and new Aquion batteries. Sine we had already done the rest > of the system, I ended up selling mine to him to keep him happy. I dearly > miss that machine. Since Pika sold out to Generac, I’m hanging on a > glimmer of hope that the turbine production could be resurrected. > > > > Otherwise, the only new turbine I have installed is a 1 kw SuperWind, made > in Germany. It is on a 40’ tilt up guyed tower on a mountaintop > transmitter site. It has performed as expected with the only problem being > susceptible to icing and the blade hub freezing to the nacelle. It is all > white so the sun can’t help defrost it. Very nice workmanship but it also > has a controller and dump load In addition to pitching blades. Similar > cost as the Pika. I don’t have any data on how much the dump load has > interacted with the controller. This is a high wind site. I’m not sure > how it would perform in low winds. We put it up in November and it > survived the winter. If you could find a used Pika, that would be my > choice but I haven’t found one yet myself. Let me know If you find > anything else. > > > > Wind Wrenches out there. ... respond ! > > > > John Blittersdorf > > CV Wind Service > > > > John.blittersdorf at gmail.com > > 802-770-8625 > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 4:08 AM Ron Young > wrote: > > Looking for recommendations on a wind turbine from the Wrenches. Wondering > what people are liking out there right now. I know it’s a pretty skinny > market and lots of junk but my client would like to replace an aging model > that he has in a low to moderate wind area, not spend too much money but > spend enough to get reliable. Ideally around 1kW but smaller is ok. > > > > Ron > > > > earthRight Products - Solareagle.com > > Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products > > 1-877-925-2929 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 10:04:49 2020 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 10:04:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind Turbine In-Reply-To: References: <34651700-bece-199b-5a0e-806468604633@four-winds-energy.com> <002101d65528$8e2c5090$aa84f1b0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Chris, Thanks for the reality check on Kohilo. I just tried to get info from them asking for a power curve. No response. If a wind turbine manufacturer can't provide even a rudimentary power curve chart, then it doesn't work. I made one for my first homemade wind turbine simply by watching the anemometer and wattage at different windspeeds for awhile and writing down the numbers I was seeing and then draw the graph. Wind always cooperates and gives constantly changing speeds. John On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 9:35 AM Chris Schaefer wrote: > RUN from the room when it comes to the Kohilo! This ole boy is in my > backyard and I'm currently trying to clean up one of their projects. They > kinda went the way of Wind Tamer, whereas they had to add solar to meet > their output claims. > > Christopher > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 9:06 AM wrote: > >> Morning fellow wrenchers. There is a newer Wind turbine company based in >> the North East called Kohilo Wind. Link below >> >> >> >> http://kohilowind.com/about-kohilo-wind/ >> >> >> >> >> >> thx >> >> peter Giroux >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Roy Butler >> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 8, 2020 8:33 AM >> *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Wind Turbine >> >> >> >> Ron and John and all, >> >> SD Wind Energy out of Texas is representing what was the Proven/Kingspan >> down wind turbines. They have a 3 and 6kW turbine now but I heard through >> the grapevine that they may have a 1kW in the near future. Price is a bit >> high but they are solid machines. >> https://sd-windenergy.com/ >> >> Other folks have been using the Braun turbine out of Germany but that's >> really spendy. >> >> The Whisper line was good, then Southwest Wind Power bought it, they went >> under, a company from India bought it, then it went to Japan >> and last I heard it's now owned by a Chinese company.....buyer beware! >> >> Although there are a couple of small turbine manufacturer's in the US >> making 1kW to 2kW machines, I am assuming you want something reliable so >> you may want to steer clear of those. I won't name names here. And of >> course there are all those tempting units for sale on Amazon and Ebay....run >> screaming from the room on those. >> >> Slim pickings out there, the small wind industry began a rapid decline >> back around 2012 when the PV prices started dropping. Most of us wind >> weanies >> moved to solar installations to help support our wind habit and decreased >> wind sales put many turbine manufacturers out of business. >> >> Anyway, best of luck on your search and if you find something and care to >> run it by me off list please do so! >> >> Roy Butler >> >> Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC >> >> 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 >> >> 607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com >> >> >> >> >> >> Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, >> >> a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. >> >> >> >> >> >> On 7/8/2020 6:55 AM, John Blittersdorf wrote: >> >> Ron, I installed a lot of the Bergey XL.1 until they stopped production. >> I just replaced blades on one last week and my first install of one of >> the first ones manufactured in 2001 is still working fine. We took in down >> about 10 years ago for preventive maintenance and replaced the brushes and >> blades though both were still in good shape. Most problems have been >> blades, brushes and a few tower failures mostly due to customer neglect or >> violent storms. I installed a Pika >> >> 1.6 kw at my home about 4 years ago and fell in love with that machine. >> Pika solved the Blade root attachment weakness found on the Bergey as well >> as sound issues and performance. Unfortunately they stopped production due >> to low sales. I ran mine for a year and a half and almost eliminated my >> generator in a low wind speed site but att he same time saw it perform >> flawlessly in high winds putting out well over 2500 watts and regulating my >> batteries at float with no dump loads needed. I got my first order for one >> and called Pika to order one but they had already stopped production and >> were not going to make any more. I had sold a customer a complete upgrade >> of his system which included upgrading from a Xantrex SW Plus to dual >> Outback inverters, going from 24v to 48v, and directly replacing his Bergey >> with a Pika, and new Aquion batteries. Sine we had already done the rest >> of the system, I ended up selling mine to him to keep him happy. I dearly >> miss that machine. Since Pika sold out to Generac, I’m hanging on a >> glimmer of hope that the turbine production could be resurrected. >> >> >> >> Otherwise, the only new turbine I have installed is a 1 kw SuperWind, >> made in Germany. It is on a 40’ tilt up guyed tower on a mountaintop >> transmitter site. It has performed as expected with the only problem being >> susceptible to icing and the blade hub freezing to the nacelle. It is all >> white so the sun can’t help defrost it. Very nice workmanship but it also >> has a controller and dump load In addition to pitching blades. Similar >> cost as the Pika. I don’t have any data on how much the dump load has >> interacted with the controller. This is a high wind site. I’m not sure >> how it would perform in low winds. We put it up in November and it >> survived the winter. If you could find a used Pika, that would be my >> choice but I haven’t found one yet myself. Let me know If you find >> anything else. >> >> >> >> Wind Wrenches out there. ... respond ! >> >> >> >> John Blittersdorf >> >> CV Wind Service >> >> >> >> John.blittersdorf at gmail.com >> >> 802-770-8625 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 4:08 AM Ron Young >> wrote: >> >> Looking for recommendations on a wind turbine from the Wrenches. >> Wondering what people are liking out there right now. I know it’s a pretty >> skinny market and lots of junk but my client would like to replace an aging >> model that he has in a low to moderate wind area, not spend too much money >> but spend enough to get reliable. Ideally around 1kW but smaller is ok. >> >> >> >> Ron >> >> >> >> earthRight Products - Solareagle.com >> >> Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products >> >> 1-877-925-2929 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Thu Jul 9 09:47:51 2020 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 09:47:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind Turbine In-Reply-To: References: <34651700-bece-199b-5a0e-806468604633@four-winds-energy.com> <002101d65528$8e2c5090$aa84f1b0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <0d813862-4fbd-4f68-493f-5ce7017dcec7@four-winds-energy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jul 9 13:37:34 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 13:37:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLPE Mapping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Google: cell phone camera endoscope I once had to rebuild an array of 40 modules that the original installer didn't scan (didn't even provide an Envoy to the client). One of these cameras worked out great for me. I have used it several times for various things. Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:58 PM Corey Shalanski wrote: > Wrenches, > > After 10+ years of MLPE (microinverters/optimizers) gaining traction in > the industry, I have noticed one stubborn issue that somehow still haunts > us. I think we as installers have all been there at some point: laying down > the final module in an array, high fives all around, time to look at the > close-out checklist that our pesky operations manager handed to us on our > way out the door, and then realizing that we forgot to peel off the MLPE > serial number stickers (or otherwise record them) in order to make a map... > > Even when installers forget to record just one serial number, retrieving > it can be difficult and time-consuming. Raise your hand if you've ever > attached your cell phone/camera to an extendable pole and slid it under the > array in hopes of catching that one forgotten label! > > In this age of smart devices, I anxiously await the day when MLPE will be > able to map themselves. But until that day comes, I am wondering if anyone > has developed or knows of a tried-and-true foolproof method for capturing > MLPE serial numbers? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jul 9 14:53:31 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 12:53:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind Turbine In-Reply-To: References: <34651700-bece-199b-5a0e-806468604633@four-winds-energy.com> <002101d65528$8e2c5090$aa84f1b0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Does anyone have experience with  APRS's WT10 turbine?  They've been around for along time, but I've not tried that turbine. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/9/20 8:04 AM, John Blittersdorf wrote: > Chris, >  Thanks for the reality check on Kohilo.  I just tried to get info > from them asking for a power curve.  No response.  If a wind turbine > manufacturer can't provide even a rudimentary power curve chart, then > it doesn't work. //I made one for my first homemade wind turbine > simply by watching the anemometer and wattage at different > windspeeds for awhile and writing down the numbers I was seeing and > then draw the graph. Wind always cooperates and gives constantly > changing speeds. > > John > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 9:35 AM Chris Schaefer > > wrote: > > RUN from the room when it comes to the Kohilo! This ole boy is in > my backyard and I'm currently trying to clean up one of their > projects. They kinda went the way of Wind Tamer, whereas they had > to add solar to meet their output claims. > > Christopher > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 9:06 AM > wrote: > > Morning fellow wrenchers. There is a newer Wind turbine > company based in the North East called Kohilo Wind. Link below > > http://kohilowind.com/about-kohilo-wind/ > > thx > > peter Giroux > > *From:* RE-wrenches > *On Behalf > Of *Roy Butler > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 8, 2020 8:33 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Wind Turbine > > Ron and John and all, > > SD Wind Energy out of Texas is representing what was the > Proven/Kingspan down wind turbines. They have a 3 and 6kW > turbine now but I heard through > the grapevine that they may have a 1kW in the near future. > Price is a bit high but they are solid machines. > https://sd-windenergy.com/ > > Other folks have been using the Braun turbine out of Germany > but that's really spendy. > > The Whisper line was good, then Southwest Wind Power bought > it, they went under, a company from India bought it, then it > went to Japan > and last I heard it's now owned by a Chinese company.....buyer > beware! > > Although there are a couple of small turbine manufacturer's in > the US making 1kW to 2kW machines, I am assuming you want > something reliable so > you may want to steer clear of those. I won't name names here. > And of course there are all those tempting units for sale on > Amazon and Ebay....run > screaming from the room on those. > > Slim pickings out there, the small wind industry began a rapid > decline back around 2012 when the PV prices started dropping. > Most of us wind weanies > moved to solar installations to help support our wind habit > and decreased wind sales put many turbine manufacturers out of > business. > > Anyway, best of luck on your search and if you find something > and care to run it by me off list please do so! > > Roy Butler > > Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC > > 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 > > 607-324-9747www.four-winds-energy.com > > > > > > Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, > > a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. > > > > > > On 7/8/2020 6:55 AM, John Blittersdorf wrote: > > Ron,  I installed a lot of the Bergey XL.1 until they > stopped production.   I just replaced blades on one last > week and my first install of one of the first ones > manufactured in 2001 is still working fine. We took in > down about 10 years ago for preventive maintenance and > replaced the brushes and blades though both were still in > good shape.  Most problems have been blades, brushes and a > few tower failures mostly due to customer neglect or > violent storms.  I installed a Pika > > 1.6 kw at my home about 4 years ago and fell in love with > that machine. Pika solved the Blade root attachment > weakness found on the Bergey as well as sound issues and > performance.  Unfortunately they stopped production due to > low sales.  I ran mine for a year and a half and almost > eliminated my generator in a low wind speed site but att > he same time saw it perform flawlessly in high winds > putting out well over 2500 watts and regulating my > batteries at float with no dump loads needed.  I got my > first order for one and called Pika to order one but they > had already stopped production and were not going to make > any more.  I had sold a customer a complete upgrade of his > system which included upgrading from a Xantrex SW Plus to > dual Outback inverters, going from 24v to 48v, and > directly replacing his Bergey with a Pika, and new Aquion > batteries.  Sine we had already done the rest of the > system, I ended up selling mine to him to keep him happy.  > I dearly miss that machine. Since Pika sold out to > Generac, I’m hanging on a glimmer of hope that the turbine > production could be resurrected. > > Otherwise, the only new turbine I have installed is a 1 kw > SuperWind, made in Germany.  It is on a 40’ tilt up guyed > tower on a mountaintop transmitter site.  It has performed > as expected with the only problem being susceptible to > icing and the blade hub freezing to the nacelle.  It is > all white so the sun can’t help defrost it.  Very nice > workmanship but it also has a controller and dump load In > addition to pitching blades. Similar cost as the Pika.   >  I don’t have any data on how much the dump load has > interacted with the controller.  This is a high wind site. > I’m not sure how it would perform in low winds. We put it > up in November and it survived the winter.  If you could > find a used Pika, that would be my choice but I haven’t > found one yet myself.  Let me know If you find anything else. > > Wind Wrenches out there. ... respond ! > > John Blittersdorf > > CV Wind Service > > John.blittersdorf at gmail.com > > > 802-770-8625 > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 4:08 AM Ron Young > > wrote: > > Looking for recommendations on a wind turbine from the > Wrenches. Wondering what people are liking out there > right now. I know it’s a pretty skinny market and lots > of junk but my client would like to replace an aging > model that he has in a low to moderate wind area, not > spend too much money but spend enough to get reliable. > Ideally around 1kW but smaller is ok. > > Ron > > earthRight Products - Solareagle.com > > > Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products > > 1-877-925-2929 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > //www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: > chris at solarandwindfx.com / > > / > / > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who > are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Fri Jul 10 13:50:04 2020 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 12:50:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage AC-coupled with SB6.0 won't recharge LG Resu batteries during backup ops Message-ID: <003f01d656e2$8afde120$a0f9a360$@solarcentex.com> We have a design with Sunny Storage 6.0 inverter, SB 6.0 PV inverter, the SMA Automatic Backup Unit, and three LG Resu batteries. Works like a charm during normal grid ops but when it goes into backup ops, the Sunny Storage increases frequency to between 60.6 with blips up to 61 hertz, resulting in the PV inverter throttling back from 5,000+ watts to between 1,300 to 345 watts. The result is that the batteries do not recharge from the PV during backup mode, even when SoC is less than half capacity. This also means the max power through the ABU to the "whole house backup" is the 6,000 watts from the Sunny Storage plus the (very) retarded power output of the SB PV inverter. SMA tech support just said, "that is normal, the LG Battery is the culprit and does not charge from PV in this setup." I was stunned because why else would I buy this ABU coupling setup.Anybody have any ideas? I'm hoping the Sunny Storage freq shifting ramp-up parameters can be adjusted so that PV inverter operations continue when the battery is at a less than full SoC. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 37150 bytes Desc: not available URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Fri Jul 10 14:23:29 2020 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 11:23:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage AC-coupled with SB6.0 won't recharge LG Resu batteries during backup ops In-Reply-To: <003f01d656e2$8afde120$a0f9a360$@solarcentex.com> References: <003f01d656e2$8afde120$a0f9a360$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Did SMA give anymore explanation as to why this set up does not work? On 7/10/2020 10:50 AM, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: > > We have a design with Sunny Storage 6.0 inverter, SB 6.0 PV inverter,=20 > the SMA Automatic Backup Unit, and three LG Resu batteries. Works like=20 > a charm during normal grid ops but when it goes into backup ops, the=20 > Sunny Storage increases frequency to between 60.6 with blips up to 61=20 > hertz, resulting in the PV inverter throttling back from 5,000+ watts=20 > to between 1,300 to 345 watts. > > The result is that the batteries do not recharge from the PV during=20 > backup mode, even when SoC is less than half capacity. This also means=20 > the max power through the ABU to the =E2=80=9Cwhole house backup=E2=80=9D= is the 6,000=20 > watts from the Sunny Storage plus the (very) retarded power output of=20 > the SB PV inverter. > > SMA tech support just said, =E2=80=9Cthat is normal, the LG Battery is th= e=20 > culprit and=C2=A0 does not charge from PV in this setup.=E2=80=9D > > I was stunned because why else would I buy this ABU coupling=20 > setup=E2=80=A6Anybody have any ideas? I=E2=80=99m hoping the Sunny Storag= e freq=20 > shifting ramp-up parameters can be adjusted so that PV inverter=20 > operations continue when the battery is at a less than full SoC. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 37150 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jul 10 14:34:45 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 11:34:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage AC-coupled with SB6.0 won't recharge LG Resu batteries during backup ops In-Reply-To: <003f01d656e2$8afde120$a0f9a360$@solarcentex.com> References: <003f01d656e2$8afde120$a0f9a360$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <1ac8b147b4e893c43c244bcd3336419b@127.0.0.1> Hi Howard, I am sure that the SMA guy here on wrenches will give you a better answer. If not I would escalate this at SMA as you are right. The LG will do what you want. Something is not programmed correctly. Three of the Resu 10H are going to take some time to replace near 30KWH. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 10 Jul 2020 12:50:04 -0500, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: We have a design with Sunny Storage 6.0 inverter, SB 6.0 PV inverter, the SMA Automatic Backup Unit, and three LG Resu batteries. Works like a charm during normal grid ops but when it goes into backup ops, the Sunny Storage increases frequency to between 60.6 with blips up to 61 hertz, resulting in the PV inverter throttling back from 5,000+ watts to between 1,300 to 345 watts. The result is that the batteries do not recharge from the PV during backup mode, even when SoC is less than half capacity. This also means the max power through the ABU to the "whole house backup" is the 6,000 watts from the Sunny Storage plus the (very) retarded power output of the SB PV inverter. SMA tech support just said, "that is normal, the LG Battery is the culprit and does not charge from PV in this setup." I was stunned because why else would I buy this ABU coupling setup…Anybody have any ideas? I'm hoping the Sunny Storage freq shifting ramp-up parameters can be adjusted so that PV inverter operations continue when the battery is at a less than full SoC. Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 37150 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solsierra1 at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 18:03:19 2020 From: solsierra1 at gmail.com (Vic Guillot) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 15:03:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage AC-coupled with SB6.0 won't recharge LG Resu batteries during backup ops In-Reply-To: <003f01d656e2$8afde120$a0f9a360$@solarcentex.com> References: <003f01d656e2$8afde120$a0f9a360$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Dear Wrenches, We too are having issues with sma sunnyboy storage sbs6.0 I would like to discuss with anyone off line. Vic Guillot solsierra1 at gmail.com Vic Guillot Sol Sierra, Inc. 209.795.3554 office 209.768.3560 mobile/text On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 11:56 AM wrote: > We have a design with Sunny Storage 6.0 inverter, SB 6.0 PV inverter, the > SMA Automatic Backup Unit, and three LG Resu batteries. Works like a charm > during normal grid ops but when it goes into backup ops, the Sunny Storage > increases frequency to between 60.6 with blips up to 61 hertz, resulting in > the PV inverter throttling back from 5,000+ watts to between 1,300 to 345 > watts. > > > > The result is that the batteries do not recharge from the PV during backup > mode, even when SoC is less than half capacity. This also means the max > power through the ABU to the “whole house backup” is the 6,000 watts from > the Sunny Storage plus the (very) retarded power output of the SB PV > inverter. > > > > SMA tech support just said, “that is normal, the LG Battery is the culprit > and does not charge from PV in this setup.” > > > > I was stunned because why else would I buy this ABU coupling setup…Anybody > have any ideas? I’m hoping the Sunny Storage freq shifting ramp-up > parameters can be adjusted so that PV inverter operations continue when the > battery is at a less than full SoC. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 37150 bytes Desc: not available URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Fri Jul 10 18:47:07 2020 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 15:47:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Admin post, please read: Wrench List archives Message-ID: <1594421259459.7885168434bd5ced@re-wrenches.org> Hi there Wrenches. If you have any questions about this, please contact me off-list. A member has discovered that there are message gaps in the third-party message archive we've been using. It shouldn't be happening, but it is. So, I've changed the archive link in the message footers back to an older one we used to use, and it should be fairly complete, at least for recent years. While I've got you here, it would be helpful for both readability and bandwidth if Wrenches would edit out old parts of the messages in their replies. For example, sometimes there might be 5 or more copies of the Wrench List footer in replies to replies. Also, copies of embedded photos in replies are usually not needed, they just create more clutter on Wrench members' hard drives. Finally, if there is a message you cannot find in the archives, please let me know and I will try to find it for you. I keep ALL old Wrench list messages on my computer, going back to Oct. 1999 when I started this list. Thanks, and keep on Wrenchin'. You all are making a difference in this world. From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 19:01:09 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 16:01:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage AC-coupled with SB6.0 won't recharge LG Resu batteries during backup ops In-Reply-To: <003f01d656e2$8afde120$a0f9a360$@solarcentex.com> References: <003f01d656e2$8afde120$a0f9a360$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Scott, Wrenches We have had systems with the SMA storage but we have used the BYD and have had no problems so far with recharge and operations all as expected, it may be an issue with LG programming and the SMA not communicating properly JUerry On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 2:57 PM wrote: > We have a design with Sunny Storage 6.0 inverter, SB 6.0 PV inverter, the > SMA Automatic Backup Unit, and three LG Resu batteries. Works like a charm > during normal grid ops but when it goes into backup ops, the Sunny Storage > increases frequency to between 60.6 with blips up to 61 hertz, resulting in > the PV inverter throttling back from 5,000+ watts to between 1,300 to 345 > watts. > > > > The result is that the batteries do not recharge from the PV during backup > mode, even when SoC is less than half capacity. This also means the max > power through the ABU to the “whole house backup” is the 6,000 watts from > the Sunny Storage plus the (very) retarded power output of the SB PV > inverter. > > > > SMA tech support just said, “that is normal, the LG Battery is the culprit > and does not charge from PV in this setup.” > > > > I was stunned because why else would I buy this ABU coupling setup…Anybody > have any ideas? I’m hoping the Sunny Storage freq shifting ramp-up > parameters can be adjusted so that PV inverter operations continue when the > battery is at a less than full SoC. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 37150 bytes Desc: not available URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Sat Jul 11 09:04:15 2020 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 08:04:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage AC-coupled with SB6.0 won't recharge LG Resu batteries during backup ops In-Reply-To: References: <003f01d656e2$8afde120$a0f9a360$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <007801d65783$c8ca6d10$5a5f4730$@solarcentex.com> Yes, that is an aspect to this but not the root cause of the problem I am having. The product manager explained that because the LG battery has an internal DC to DC converter, when it switches between charging and discharging, there is a appx 3 second loss of power when in backup mode. He described how one setup could be 2xLG Resu and 1x BYD as the BYD maintains constant voltage and no “lag.” Still, my own personal LG in a StorEdge system has absolutely no issue like this so I’m trying to figure out why this is a challenge in SMA but not SolarEdge. But back to my main problem, which is charging of the battery in backup mode, from the PV inverter. I am still awaiting his promised email, but he discussed setting country code to Ca Rule 21 to soften the charging points. He said setpoints for when to cease recharging (to prevents too high charging) is field adjustable but I find the SMA interface to be a complex, PhD level of complexity without much installer-level explanation. He also said if any of the three batteries were at this no-charge setpoint, this might cease PV charging so I’ll check that and if that the case, I’ll turn oof high SoC batteries and try to bring all up to common level. I sure hope this is not the case because that would be a serious software gap. I’ll share more as I get more info or learn more in the field. Scot Arey From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 6:01 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage AC-coupled with SB6.0 won't recharge LG Resu batteries during backup ops Scott, Wrenches We have had systems with the SMA storage but we have used the BYD and have had no problems so far with recharge and operations all as expected, it may be an issue with LG programming and the SMA not communicating properly JUerry On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 2:57 PM > wrote: We have a design with Sunny Storage 6.0 inverter, SB 6.0 PV inverter, the SMA Automatic Backup Unit, and three LG Resu batteries. Works like a charm during normal grid ops but when it goes into backup ops, the Sunny Storage increases frequency to between 60.6 with blips up to 61 hertz, resulting in the PV inverter throttling back from 5,000+ watts to between 1,300 to 345 watts. The result is that the batteries do not recharge from the PV during backup mode, even when SoC is less than half capacity. This also means the max power through the ABU to the “whole house backup” is the 6,000 watts from the Sunny Storage plus the (very) retarded power output of the SB PV inverter. SMA tech support just said, “that is normal, the LG Battery is the culprit and does not charge from PV in this setup.” I was stunned because why else would I buy this ABU coupling setup…Anybody have any ideas? I’m hoping the Sunny Storage freq shifting ramp-up parameters can be adjusted so that PV inverter operations continue when the battery is at a less than full SoC. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 37644 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 08:56:12 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 08:56:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Evergreen ES190 Message-ID: Does anyone have a lead on an Evergreen ES190. I have a client in Vermont that has a broken panel they are looking to replace. TIA, Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 09:14:12 2020 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (palumbo131m at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 09:14:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Evergreen ES190 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001901d65917$80b14770$8213d650$@gmail.com> Howie, I have a few ES-180’s and 190’s in stock. Contact me off list. David Palumbo Email: palumbo131m at gmail.com 802-888-4917 land line 802-371-8678 voice & text From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 8:56 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Evergreen ES190 Does anyone have a lead on an Evergreen ES190. I have a client in Vermont that has a broken panel they are looking to replace. TIA, Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From integrityenergy101 at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 09:18:38 2020 From: integrityenergy101 at gmail.com (Amos Post) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 09:18:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Evergreen ES190 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howie, I have a ES180-RL if that would work…not 12V nominal. You can email me off-list Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook > On Jul 13, 2020, at 8:56 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > > Does anyone have a lead on an Evergreen ES190. I have a client in Vermont that has a broken panel they are looking to replace. > TIA, > Howie > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 14:11:01 2020 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (palumbo131m at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 14:11:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Evergreen ES190 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008601d65940$f7a8eb70$e6fac250$@gmail.com> Hi Howie, I just checked my inventory in the barn on Evergreen modules. All never used. * (5) ES-180 RL * (1) ES-190 RL * (1) ES-195 RL * (3) ES-A-205 fa3 I would like $ 2 per watt. No shipping, you must pick up. No credit cards. Cash or check only. Dave Palumbo 462 Solar Way Dr Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 voice or text 802-888-4917 land line From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 8:56 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Evergreen ES190 Does anyone have a lead on an Evergreen ES190. I have a client in Vermont that has a broken panel they are looking to replace. TIA, Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich at solartechvt.com Mon Jul 13 18:27:53 2020 From: rich at solartechvt.com (rich at solartechvt.com) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 18:27:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Evergreen ES190 In-Reply-To: <008601d65940$f7a8eb70$e6fac250$@gmail.com> References: <008601d65940$f7a8eb70$e6fac250$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003801d65964$da8095b0$8f81c110$@solartechvt.com> HI Dave Can you put aside on ES-180 RL for me as well? Thanks Rich Nicol 802-467-3500 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of palumbo131m at gmail.com Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 2:11 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Evergreen ES190 Hi Howie, I just checked my inventory in the barn on Evergreen modules. All never used. * (5) ES-180 RL * (1) ES-190 RL * (1) ES-195 RL * (3) ES-A-205 fa3 I would like $ 2 per watt. No shipping, you must pick up. No credit cards. Cash or check only. Dave Palumbo 462 Solar Way Dr Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 voice or text 802-888-4917 land line From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 8:56 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Evergreen ES190 Does anyone have a lead on an Evergreen ES190. I have a client in Vermont that has a broken panel they are looking to replace. TIA, Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Jul 15 12:16:36 2020 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 11:16:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage AC-coupled with SB6.0 won't recharge LG Resu batteries during backup ops Message-ID: <02ea01d65ac3$50f6c340$f2e449c0$@solarcentex.com> An update. LG ESS is simply not compatible with the SMA represented system of SMA storage inverter, Automatic Backup Unit, and its SMA PV inverter. Just cannot AC Couple and use solar to recharge the batteries because as soon as the battery changes from charging to discharging, it bleeds off voltage in its DC to DC converter and that causes the storage inverter to drop.and that causes the PV inverter to drop.then it starts anew. SMA makes reference to this obliquely in it "background knowledge" documentation but even that asterisked verbiage doesn't drive home the point that one just cannot AC couple the PV inverter to gain solar charging. And of course if that's the case, why the heck would one even couple via a "whole house backup" SMA Automatic Backup Unit??? The answer if course one would not. Supposedly the BYD battery which is a true 400V battery and does not have the DC to DC converter does not have the same power lapses and will work in this architecture. Let's see how SMA fixes this with their documentation representing this would all work. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 37150 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 17:37:47 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 14:37:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage AC-coupled with SB6.0 won't recharge LG Resu batteries during backup ops In-Reply-To: <02ea01d65ac3$50f6c340$f2e449c0$@solarcentex.com> References: <02ea01d65ac3$50f6c340$f2e449c0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Scot We do it pretty often and have never had an issue, right out of the gate we were told that BYD is the only battery option available, l understand your frustration but how did you determine that LG was an approved solution in the beginning. SMA is not perfict and I will say they do have an issue regarding stacking of the SBS's you just can not do it, but on the PV side it's all good. Jerry On Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 11:17 AM wrote: > An update. > > > > LG ESS is simply not compatible with the SMA represented system of SMA > storage inverter, Automatic Backup Unit, and its SMA PV inverter. > > > > Just cannot AC Couple and use solar to recharge the batteries because as > soon as the battery changes from charging to discharging, it bleeds off > voltage in its DC to DC converter and that causes the storage inverter to > drop…and that causes the PV inverter to drop…then it starts anew. > > > > SMA makes reference to this obliquely in it “background knowledge” > documentation but even that asterisked verbiage doesn’t drive home the > point that one just cannot AC couple the PV inverter to gain solar > charging. And of course if that’s the case, why the heck would one even > couple via a “whole house backup” SMA Automatic Backup Unit??? The answer > if course one would not. > > > > Supposedly the BYD battery which is a true 400V battery and does not have > the DC to DC converter does not have the same power lapses and will work in > this architecture. > > > > Let’s see how SMA fixes this with their documentation representing this > would all work. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 37150 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 37150 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solsierra1 at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 17:48:01 2020 From: solsierra1 at gmail.com (Vic Guillot) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 14:48:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage AC-coupled with SB6.0 won't recharge LG Resu batteries during backup ops In-Reply-To: References: <02ea01d65ac3$50f6c340$f2e449c0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, Thanks for your comments Jerry, Our company too has had issues with the problems you discuss. It basically seems that someone has misrepresented what is "doable" with the SMA storage inverter, ABU and Sunny Boy PV inverters. We made the mistake of installing 3 in a row and then finding out these issues with SMA. We really hate having customers mad at us! We thus avoid these situations like the plague, or these days the Covid! So what we have come to understand here is that you cannot AC couple SMA and the LG Chem battery. So what is the point of having the ABU? Thanks to Scott for bringing these issues to light. Vic Guillot Sol Sierra, Inc. Vic Guillot Sol Sierra, Inc. 209.795.3554 office 209.768.3560 mobile/text On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 2:38 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Scot > We do it pretty often and have never had an issue, right out of the gate > we were told that BYD is the only battery option available, l understand > your frustration but how did you determine that LG was an approved solution > in the beginning. SMA is not perfict and I will say they do have an issue > regarding stacking of the SBS's you just can not do it, but on the PV side > it's all good. > Jerry > > On Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 11:17 AM wrote: > >> An update. >> >> >> >> LG ESS is simply not compatible with the SMA represented system of SMA >> storage inverter, Automatic Backup Unit, and its SMA PV inverter. >> >> >> >> Just cannot AC Couple and use solar to recharge the batteries because as >> soon as the battery changes from charging to discharging, it bleeds off >> voltage in its DC to DC converter and that causes the storage inverter to >> drop…and that causes the PV inverter to drop…then it starts anew. >> >> >> >> SMA makes reference to this obliquely in it “background knowledge” >> documentation but even that asterisked verbiage doesn’t drive home the >> point that one just cannot AC couple the PV inverter to gain solar >> charging. And of course if that’s the case, why the heck would one even >> couple via a “whole house backup” SMA Automatic Backup Unit??? The answer >> if course one would not. >> >> >> >> Supposedly the BYD battery which is a true 400V battery and does not have >> the DC to DC converter does not have the same power lapses and will work in >> this architecture. >> >> >> >> Let’s see how SMA fixes this with their documentation representing this >> would all work. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu Jul 16 08:16:39 2020 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 07:16:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage AC-coupled with SB6.0 won't recharge LG Resu batteries during backup ops Message-ID: <001f01d65b6a$f5a99140$e0fcb3c0$@solarcentex.com> @ Jerry Shafer: I think the title of the post clearly lays out that the issue I was experiencing is with LG Resu batteries. I am glad that you are having good outcomes with BYD but I never said this was part of my problem. So when you say you are "doing it pretty often" I'm assuming you are referring to the BYD battery. SMA acknowledges verbally that this BYD battery offers uninterrupted operations whereas the LG does not. Further, my original post never said a thing about stacking of SBS. As for "how did (I) determine that LG was an approved solution in the beginning:" SMA depicts this in its datasheets quite clearly. In fact, LG Chem is listed before BYD. Bottom line - there is no recharging capability with SMA AC-coupled PV inverter to LG Resu batteries. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 37150 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jul 16 09:57:09 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 09:57:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Engineer Needed for Large Off-Grid System Message-ID: Hi Fellow Wrenches, I am looking for an engineer that can produce a complete 3-line diagram for an off-grid system. It's a large one with some hefty DC bus requirements. We're looking at 60kW inverter/charger capacity, 160kWh LiPO battery, and 50kW of PV. Specifically, I would prefer someone with experience with Victron equipment. I need them to specify all BOS equipment in detail and preferably identify sources (manufacturers/fabrocators) for all components. Any leads would be greatly appreciated (contact me off-list). Thanks, Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Thu Jul 16 10:11:28 2020 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 10:11:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Engineer Needed for Large Off-Grid System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Try SEI Professional Services: http://www.seisolarpros.com/ They've been doing a good amount of battery-based design lately. On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 9:57 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Hi Fellow Wrenches, > > I am looking for an engineer that can produce a complete 3-line diagram > for an off-grid system. It's a large one with some hefty DC bus > requirements. We're looking at 60kW inverter/charger capacity, 160kWh LiPO > battery, and 50kW of PV. > > Specifically, I would prefer someone with experience with Victron > equipment. I need them to specify all BOS equipment in detail and > preferably identify sources (manufacturers/fabrocators) for all components. > > Any leads would be greatly appreciated (contact me off-list). > > Thanks, > > Jason Szumlanski > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jul 16 11:51:43 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:51:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage AC-coupled with SB6.0 won't recharge LG Resu batteries during backup ops In-Reply-To: <001f01d65b6a$f5a99140$e0fcb3c0$@solarcentex.com> References: <001f01d65b6a$f5a99140$e0fcb3c0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <6cd6fb21bb0ad2ca035f05ea6db3516f@127.0.0.1> Hi Scott, Agree with all you have said and would add that my experience with the failed 48vdc LG RESU 10 proved to me that LG needed to go back and redesign the whole line of residential storage. Not ready for prime time. It probably is just a good choice to stay away from their NMC batteries. No matter what listings they have, it is much safer to use LFP lithium. I have heard that the Tesla powerwall is useable (now) offgrid with warranty. Sadly it is also NMC lithium. The Discover AES and today Fortress are both closed loop (LFP) with Schneider AC coupling or DC. One just sets the current date and configuration is done. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 16 Jul 2020 07:16:39 -0500, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: @ Jerry Shafer: I think the title of the post clearly lays out that the issue I was experiencing is with LG Resu batteries. I am glad that you are having good outcomes with BYD but I never said this was part of my problem. So when you say you are "doing it pretty often" I'm assuming you are referring to the BYD battery. SMA acknowledges verbally that this BYD battery offers uninterrupted operations whereas the LG does not. Further, my original post never said a thing about stacking of SBS. As for "how did (I) determine that LG was an approved solution in the beginning:" SMA depicts this in its datasheets quite clearly. In fact, LG Chem is listed before BYD. Bottom line - there is no recharging capability with SMA AC-coupled PV inverter to LG Resu batteries. Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 37150 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Fri Jul 17 08:01:18 2020 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 08:01:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Engineer Needed for Large Off-Grid System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000b01d65c31$fae76570$f0b63050$@mindspring.com> Jason Try reaching out to Nwene Ogwu. Met her at a trade show, is a PE, numerous projects under her belt and has recently gone out on her own. 770 376 0707 or 615 720 3407 From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Will White Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2020 10:11 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Engineer Needed for Large Off-Grid System Try SEI Professional Services: http://www.seisolarpros.com/ They've been doing a good amount of battery-based design lately. On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 9:57 AM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: Hi Fellow Wrenches, I am looking for an engineer that can produce a complete 3-line diagram for an off-grid system. It's a large one with some hefty DC bus requirements. We're looking at 60kW inverter/charger capacity, 160kWh LiPO battery, and 50kW of PV. Specifically, I would prefer someone with experience with Victron equipment. I need them to specify all BOS equipment in detail and preferably identify sources (manufacturers/fabrocators) for all components. Any leads would be greatly appreciated (contact me off-list). Thanks, Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Will White Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD0000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Fri Jul 17 11:28:54 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 11:28:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' Message-ID: All, Is there a reference to this so-called "8-foot rule" that someone could point me to in the NEC? Thanks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 12:02:25 2020 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 12:02:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kirk, Not sure if this helps but 690.31(A) “where PV source and output circuits operating at max system voltages greater than 30v are installed in readily accessible locations, circuit conductors shall be guarded or installed in a raceway” It doesn’t mention 8’ but mentions “readily accessible”. We have AHJs that interpret that as 8’ unless a 6’ fence is installed around the array. I don’t have a reference for those measurements though...just feedback we have gotten from inspectors On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 11:38 AM Kirk Herander wrote: > All, > Is there a reference to this so-called "8-foot rule" that someone could > point me to in the NEC? Thanks. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Fri Jul 17 15:41:59 2020 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 12:41:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Admin says: please read Message-ID: <1595015018318.724ace4144260854@re-wrenches.org> Hi gang. Just a reminder to not post off topic items. If you have any questions or concerns, please contact me off-list. We've had a spate of posts recently which shouldn't have gone to the list. Mainly, messages intended only for individuals should not go to the whole list, like responses to requests for a particular piece of equipment. I don't mean to stifle conversation, though. For sure, respond to technical posts and pertinent questions to the whole list, because that helps everyone and fosters community. Anyway, here are the rules about off-topic postings. If in doubt about a posting you are considering, feel free to check in with me first. 1. Don't post jokes, thanks, apologies, agreements, news items, chit-chat, events, politics, marketing, virus info, leads, jobs, items for sale, or anything else that is off-topic. 2. Don't respond on-list to others' off topic posts. 3. Don't post items that are available for sale, either from you or from others. 3a. From time to time people post items that they need but are having problems locating (like an older model PV module to replace a broken one), but these requests should be responded to off-list. And these requests should state within them, something like: "if you have one, please contact me off list." 4. If you have a message that is intended for individuals who are on the list, like "thanks" or "yes, I have one of those things you are looking for," don't send it to the whole list -- just send it to the individuals. 5. Do not post administrative inquiries, but rather send them to me off-list. 6. And finally, a reminder to never post leads or job openings of any kind on the list. Thank-you. From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 22:15:11 2020 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 21:15:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes but see Article100.1 for the definition of accessible and readily accessible, to access you need a ladder. implies I think where the 8-foot idea come from I think this is poor writing, but it is accepted to be beyond reach On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 11:02 AM AE Solar wrote: > Kirk, > Not sure if this helps but > 690.31(A) “where PV source and output circuits operating at max system > voltages greater than 30v are installed in readily accessible locations, > circuit conductors shall be guarded or installed in a raceway” > > It doesn’t mention 8’ but mentions “readily accessible”. We have AHJs that > interpret that as 8’ unless a 6’ fence is installed around the array. I > don’t have a reference for those measurements though...just feedback we > have gotten from inspectors > > On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 11:38 AM Kirk Herander wrote: > >> All, >> Is there a reference to this so-called "8-foot rule" that someone could >> point me to in the NEC? Thanks. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > PO Box 1245 > Kingston, NY 12402 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Jul 17 22:32:00 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 19:32:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kirk - We work in San Francisco where they have a local code amendment: 300.4(I) Add the following section: (I) Subject to Physical Damage. Premises wiring systems installed less than 2.44 m (8 feet) above a walking surface or finished floor are considered subject to physical damage. As far as I'm aware otherwise, there is not a specific definition specifying 8' for physical damage in the broader NEC - I think it's just up to the AHJ. August Luminalt On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 8:38 AM Kirk Herander wrote: > All, > Is there a reference to this so-called "8-foot rule" that someone could > point me to in the NEC? Thanks. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From findsolar at herzfeld.org Sat Jul 18 00:09:27 2020 From: findsolar at herzfeld.org (Martin Herzfeld) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 21:09:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Simply, the '2.5 m' (8 ft) has been inferred from Article 110.27(A)(4). It's interesting now that the distance in the 2019 CEC/2017 NEC has increased based on voltage. In other words, if the voltage is greater than 301 volts the minimum would be 8 ft 6 in. :) All the best, Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037 Contract Training Provider (CTP) Adjunct Professor, Energy California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, D56, D31, C-7 Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors #7035507 - Since 2006 * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training Provider On Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 7:32 PM August Goers wrote: > Hi Kirk - We work in San Francisco where they have a local code amendment: > > > 300.4(I) Add the following section: > (I) Subject to Physical Damage. Premises wiring systems installed less > than 2.44 m (8 feet) above a walking surface or finished floor are > considered subject to physical damage. > > As far as I'm aware otherwise, there is not a specific definition > specifying 8' for physical damage in the broader NEC - I think it's just up > to the AHJ. > > August > Luminalt > > > > > On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 8:38 AM Kirk Herander wrote: > >> All, >> Is there a reference to this so-called "8-foot rule" that someone could >> point me to in the NEC? Thanks. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Jul 18 10:53:24 2020 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 10:53:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <018901d65d13$31d60640$958212c0$@glbcc.com> The discussion about an 8 ft rule is in regards to accessibility, not physical damage. Two completely independent topics… Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 10:32 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' Hi Kirk - We work in San Francisco where they have a local code amendment: 300.4(I) Add the following section: (I) Subject to Physical Damage. Premises wiring systems installed less than 2.44 m (8 feet) above a walking surface or finished floor are considered subject to physical damage. As far as I'm aware otherwise, there is not a specific definition specifying 8' for physical damage in the broader NEC - I think it's just up to the AHJ. August Luminalt On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 8:38 AM Kirk Herander > wrote: All, Is there a reference to this so-called "8-foot rule" that someone could point me to in the NEC? Thanks. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Sat Jul 18 11:30:03 2020 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 11:30:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TS4R-F Feedback Message-ID: Wrenchers, Does anyone have feedback on using TS4R-F for rapid shutdown? It was a tough run for us with RMA's on the SMA Rapid Shutdown boxes. We never messed around with Tigo but have followed threads here, and recently had an SMA tech tell me "he wouldn't wish it on his worst enemy". Probably going to give the TS4R-F a shot with some SMA installs but interested to hear any feedback on product reliability. Thanks for any thoughts. Adam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com Sat Jul 18 11:52:11 2020 From: rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com (Rick Brown) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 11:52:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TS4R-F Feedback In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8177B903-EE50-4523-BFBE-F87682FA5CCB@solshineenergyalternatives.com> We’ve had good experience with the TS4R-Fs. Straightforward installs although wire management is more cumbersome than micros. Since they’re Sunspec compliant no need for a separate RS initiator. AC disconnect is all that’s required. Too early to give feedback on long term reliability. Hope that helps. rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On Jul 18, 2020, at 11:30 AM, AE Solar wrote: > >  > Wrenchers, > Does anyone have feedback on using TS4R-F for rapid shutdown? It was a tough run for us with RMA's on the SMA Rapid Shutdown boxes. We never messed around with Tigo but have followed threads here, and recently had an SMA tech tell me "he wouldn't wish it on his worst enemy". Probably going to give the TS4R-F a shot with some SMA installs but interested to hear any feedback on product reliability. Thanks for any thoughts. > Adam > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Sat Jul 18 10:05:49 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 10:05:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' w/awning array Message-ID: Thanks all. The NEC reference 110.27 is helpful. I am in a battle now with my AHJ building inspector which relates indirectly to the 8' rule question. I have mounted several modules awning-style above a window at an angle of 30 degrees. The bottom of the array is 7' from grade. The inspector insists that this is a ground-mount array, even though it is mounted on the wall of a habitable building. He cites NFPA 1, 2012 fire safety rules which are adopted in my locale. In his brain, I must add a fence to insure no one can touch the array within 10' per NFPA access guidelines for ground-mounts. The NFPA does not cover wall-mounts specifically, if at all. It only defines arrays on buildings (roof) and "real" ground mounts, i.e. mounted on a detached structure.  The exposed PV wire enters a J-box roughly 10' above grade(behind the array), more than complying with guidance in NEC 110.27. I am using this rule as backup to my position that NFPA fire safety rules for ground mounts do not apply, and the wire runs are protected accordingly per the NEC. IMO the intent of the NFPA 10' ground-mount rule is to protect the array and specifically wiring from damage, which compliance with NEC 110.27 already does. On 7/18/2020 4:01:34 AM, Martin Herzfeld wrote: Simply, the '2.5 m' (8 ft) has been inferred from Article 110.27(A)(4).  It's interesting now that the distance in the 2019 CEC/2017 NEC has  increased based on voltage.  In other words, if the voltage is greater than 301 volts the minimum would be 8 ft 6 in. :) All the best,  Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037 Contract Training Provider (CTP) Adjunct Professor, Energy California Solar & Electrical Contractor License  #00833782  C46, C10, D56, D31, C-7 Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections  Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors  #7035507 - Since 2006 * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training Provider    On Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 7:32 PM August Goers wrote: Hi Kirk - We work in San Francisco where they have a local code amendment: [https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/san_francisco/latest/sf_building/0-0-0-84935] 300.4(I)  Add the following section:    (I)   Subject to Physical Damage. Premises wiring systems installed less than 2.44 m (8 feet) above a walking surface or finished floor are considered subject to physical damage. As far as I'm aware otherwise, there is not a specific definition specifying 8' for physical damage in the broader NEC - I think it's just up to the AHJ. August Luminalt   On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 8:38 AM Kirk Herander wrote: All, Is there a reference to this so-called "8-foot rule" that someone could point me to in the NEC? Thanks. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Jul 18 17:57:23 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 14:57:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' w/awning array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would give a small amount of additional time to convince the inspector. After that I would build the fence he wants. I would also build it to be easily dismantled/removed. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 18 Jul 2020 10:05:49 -0400, Kirk Herander wrote: Thanks all. The NEC reference 110.27 is helpful. I am in a battle now with my AHJ building inspector which relates indirectly to the 8' rule question. I have mounted several modules awning-style above a window at an angle of 30 degrees. The bottom of the array is 7' from grade. The inspector insists that this is a ground-mount array, even though it is mounted on the wall of a habitable building. He cites NFPA 1, 2012 fire safety rules which are adopted in my locale. In his brain, I must add a fence to insure no one can touch the array within 10' per NFPA access guidelines for ground-mounts. The NFPA does not cover wall-mounts specifically, if at all. It only defines arrays on buildings (roof) and "real" ground mounts, i.e. mounted on a detached structure. The exposed PV wire enters a J-box roughly 10' above grade(behind the array), more than complying with guidance in NEC 110.27. I am using this rule as backup to my position that NFPA fire safety rules for ground mounts do not apply, and the wire runs are protected accordingly per the NEC. IMO the intent of the NFPA 10' ground-mount rule is to protect the array and specifically wiring from damage, which compliance with NEC 110.27 already does. On 7/18/2020 4:01:34 AM, Martin Herzfeld wrote: Simply, the '2.5 m' (8 ft) has been inferred from Article 110.27(A)(4). It's interesting now that the distance in the 2019 CEC/2017 NEC has increased based on voltage. In other words, if the voltage is greater than 301 volts the minimum would be 8 ft 6 in. :) All the best, Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master Trainer (tm) for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037 Contract Training Provider (CTP) Adjunct Professor, Energy California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, D56, D31, C-7 Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation border-left: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left: 1ex;"> Hi Kirk - We work in San Francisco where they have a local code amendment: [4] 300.4(I) Add the following section: (I) Subject to Physical Damage. Premises wiring systems installed less than 2.44 m (8 feet) above a walking surface or finished floor are considered subject to physical damage. As far as I'm aware otherwise, there is not a specific definition specifying 8' for physical damage in the broader NEC - I think it's just up to the AHJ. August Luminalt On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 8:38 AM Kirk Herander wrote: All, Is there a reference to this so-called "8-foot rule" that someone could point me to in the NEC? Thanks. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [15] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:august at luminalt.com [4] https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/san_francisco/latest/sf_building/0-0-0-84935 [5] mailto:vtsolar at icloud.com [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Jul 18 18:56:49 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 16:56:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' w/awning array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <953d7880-70a2-ffcc-7408-c10e377128c0@solarray.com> I've always interpreted this rule to mean to the wiring, not to the bottom edge of the array.  110.27  refers to live parts; that's actual uninsulated  bare conductors, lugs, or switch contacts, etc.  Further, 690.31(A) just says "circuit conductors shall be guarded...."  Finally, if the conductors are within 8 ft of the ground, then usually you can just put a plastic shield, or expanded aluminum lathe on the bottom of the rails to protect the conductors. Wire Shielding ground Mount I pinched this pic from Miller Solar, one of our long time wrenches here. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/18/20 3:57 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > I would give a small amount of additional time to convince the > inspector. After that I would build the fence he wants. I would also > build it to be easily dismantled/removed. Good Luck! > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sat, 18 Jul 2020 10:05:49 -0400, Kirk Herander > wrote: > >> Thanks all. The NEC reference 110.27 is helpful. >> I am in a battle now with my AHJ building inspector which relates >> indirectly to the 8' rule question. I have mounted several modules >> awning-style above a window at an angle of 30 degrees. The bottom of >> the array is 7' from grade. The inspector insists that this is a >> ground-mount array, even though it is mounted on the wall of a >> habitable building. He cites NFPA 1, 2012 fire safety rules which are >> adopted in my locale. In his brain, I must add a fence to insure no >> one can touch the array within 10' per NFPA access guidelines for >> ground-mounts. >> The NFPA does not cover wall-mounts specifically, if at all. It only >> defines arrays on buildings (roof) and "real" ground mounts, i.e. >> mounted on a detached structure. >> The exposed PV wire enters a J-box roughly 10' above grade(behind the >> array), more than complying with guidance in NEC 110.27. I am using >> this rule as backup to my position that NFPA fire safety rules for >> ground mounts do not apply, and the wire runs are protected >> accordingly per the NEC. IMO the intent of the NFPA 10' ground-mount >> rule is to protect the array and specifically wiring from damage, >> which compliance with NEC 110.27 already does. >> >> On 7/18/2020 4:01:34 AM, Martin Herzfeld >> wrote: >> >> Simply, the '2.5 m' (8 ft) has been inferred from Article >> 110.27(A)(4).  It's interesting now that the distance in the 2019 >> CEC/2017 NEC has  increased based on voltage.  In other words, if >> the voltage is greater than 301 volts the minimum would be 8 ft 6 >> in. :) >> >> All the best, >> >> Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) >> Certified Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation >> Professional #IREC 10037 >> Contract Training Provider (CTP) >> Adjunct Professor, Energy >> >> California Solar & Electrical Contractor License  #00833782  C46, >> C10, D56, D31, C-7 >> Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, >> Instrumentation >> >> Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections >> Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 >> OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 >> CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) >> #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG >> >> * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical >> Inspectors  #7035507 - Since 2006 >> * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified >> Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training >> Provider >> >> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 7:32 PM August Goers > > wrote: >> >> Hi Kirk - We work in San Francisco where they have a local >> code amendment: >> >> >> 300.4(I) Add the following section: >>  (I)   Subject to Physical Damage. Premises wiring systems >> installed less than 2.44 m (8 feet) above a walking surface >> or finished floor are considered subject to physical damage. >> As far as I'm aware otherwise, there is not a specific >> definition specifying 8' for physical damage in the broader >> NEC - I think it's just up to the AHJ. >> August >> Luminalt >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 8:38 AM Kirk Herander >> > wrote: >> >> All, >> Is there a reference to this so-called "8-foot rule" that >> someone could point me to in the NEC? Thanks. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by >> Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check >> out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Sun Jul 19 11:36:24 2020 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier III) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2020 11:36:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience? Message-ID: <3e15ec41-4116-3a1e-06ef-884f1e693dc5@gmail.com> Greetings, Wrenches, I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, this was the best solution. Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? What is the lead time on these? Many Thanks, Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Missisquoi River Hydro Renewable Energy Design -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Jul 19 12:14:17 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2020 09:14:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Tesla_Powerwall_2=2E0_-_Experience=3F?= In-Reply-To: <3e15ec41-4116-3a1e-06ef-884f1e693dc5@gmail.com> References: <3e15ec41-4116-3a1e-06ef-884f1e693dc5@gmail.com> Message-ID: There are people who are doing it on youtube but I have not looked at it seriously because it has NMC cells. It is a very nice capacity at 13.5 kwh, and good for the money. I did help a client get a model 2 to work offgrid. After we were done it worked great with a Schneider system and still does 2 years later. There is no warranty after what we did. I hope some of the folks on here will give a more recent response of a "stock" powerwall with an offgrid installation. A genset and DC solar in the mix. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 19 Jul 2020 11:36:24 -0400, Hilton Dier III wrote: Greetings, Wrenches, I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, this was the best solution. Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? What is the lead time on these? Many Thanks, Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Missisquoi River Hydro Renewable Energy Design Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Jul 19 12:54:26 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2020 09:54:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience? In-Reply-To: <3e15ec41-4116-3a1e-06ef-884f1e693dc5@gmail.com> References: <3e15ec41-4116-3a1e-06ef-884f1e693dc5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hilton, Wrenches As I recall Tesla does not recommend their battery for off grid applications, they need to be connected to the internet and without that there may be warranty issues. I don't think that the off grid world and daily cycling would work well over time either. How would you jump start the power wall if it died do to low voltage cut out, a genny might work if it connects and stays connected this might also affect the warranty. Jerry NABCEP PV inspector On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 9:02 AM Hilton Dier III wrote: > Greetings, Wrenches, > > I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla > Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it > appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but > apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, > and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, > this was the best solution. > > Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV > system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? > What is the lead time on these? > > Many Thanks, > > Hilton > > -- > Hilton Dier III > Missisquoi River Hydro > Renewable Energy Design > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Jul 19 15:49:48 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2020 13:49:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience? In-Reply-To: References: <3e15ec41-4116-3a1e-06ef-884f1e693dc5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0153e8e3-b290-0db8-3955-74b35f733ce1@solarray.com> There are so many really good Li Iron Phosphate Batteries available, that are actually designed for off grid, that I don't see any advantage to using a more unstable chemistry that is not designed for off grid.   AC coupled is a 2nd huge no no for off grid, and can leave an unattended system completely inoperable. Anytime the main battery inverter shuts off for any of several reasons: overload, overtemp, low battery, etc., it also means that all charging of the system ceases as well. For Off grid, reliability is absolutely #1, and owner safety is directly related to that reliability.  They can lose water, heat, refrigeration, and communications in an outage.  I'm just tired of  folks dabbling in off grid, and not taking it seriously.  Why in the world would someone even consider using a product that its own manufacturer says should not be used off grid? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/19/20 10:54 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Hilton, Wrenches > As I recall Tesla does not recommend their battery for off grid > applications, they need to be connected to the internet and without > that there may be warranty issues. I don't think that the off grid > world and daily cycling would work well over time either. How would > you jump start the power wall if it died do to low voltage cut out, a > genny might work if it connects and stays connected this might also > affect the warranty. > Jerry > NABCEP PV inspector > > On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 9:02 AM Hilton Dier III > wrote: > > Greetings, Wrenches, > > I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the > Tesla Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and > manual for it and it appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk > of a DC input version, but apparently that fell by the wayside. I > try to be agnostic about technology, and I'd be willing to > subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, this was the > best solution. > > Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off > grid PV system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power > without barfing? What is the lead time on these? > > Many Thanks, > > Hilton > > -- > Hilton Dier III > Missisquoi River Hydro > Renewable Energy Design > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Jul 19 16:15:58 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2020 13:15:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience? In-Reply-To: <0153e8e3-b290-0db8-3955-74b35f733ce1@solarray.com> References: <3e15ec41-4116-3a1e-06ef-884f1e693dc5@gmail.com> <0153e8e3-b290-0db8-3955-74b35f733ce1@solarray.com> Message-ID: I second what Ray says Jerry On Sun, Jul 19, 2020, 12:49 PM Ray wrote: > There are so many really good Li Iron Phosphate Batteries available, that > are actually designed for off grid, that I don't see any advantage to using > a more unstable chemistry that is not designed for off grid. AC coupled > is a 2nd huge no no for off grid, and can leave an unattended system > completely inoperable. Anytime the main battery inverter shuts off for any > of several reasons: overload, overtemp, low battery, etc., it also means > that all charging of the system ceases as well. > > For Off grid, reliability is absolutely #1, and owner safety is directly > related to that reliability. They can lose water, heat, refrigeration, and > communications in an outage. I'm just tired of folks dabbling in off > grid, and not taking it seriously. Why in the world would someone even > consider using a product that its own manufacturer says should not be used > off grid? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/19/20 10:54 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Hilton, Wrenches > As I recall Tesla does not recommend their battery for off grid > applications, they need to be connected to the internet and without that > there may be warranty issues. I don't think that the off grid world and > daily cycling would work well over time either. How would you jump start > the power wall if it died do to low voltage cut out, a genny might work if > it connects and stays connected this might also affect the warranty. > Jerry > NABCEP PV inspector > > On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 9:02 AM Hilton Dier III > wrote: > >> Greetings, Wrenches, >> >> I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla >> Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it >> appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but >> apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, >> and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, >> this was the best solution. >> >> Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV >> system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? >> What is the lead time on these? >> >> Many Thanks, >> >> Hilton >> >> -- >> Hilton Dier III >> Missisquoi River Hydro >> Renewable Energy Design >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Jul 19 17:07:16 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2020 14:07:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience? In-Reply-To: <0153e8e3-b290-0db8-3955-74b35f733ce1@solarray.com> References: <3e15ec41-4116-3a1e-06ef-884f1e693dc5@gmail.com> <0153e8e3-b290-0db8-3955-74b35f733ce1@solarray.com> Message-ID: I second what Ray says Jerry On Sun, Jul 19, 2020, 12:49 PM Ray wrote: > There are so many really good Li Iron Phosphate Batteries available, that > are actually designed for off grid, that I don't see any advantage to using > a more unstable chemistry that is not designed for off grid. AC coupled > is a 2nd huge no no for off grid, and can leave an unattended system > completely inoperable. Anytime the main battery inverter shuts off for any > of several reasons: overload, overtemp, low battery, etc., it also means > that all charging of the system ceases as well. > > For Off grid, reliability is absolutely #1, and owner safety is directly > related to that reliability. They can lose water, heat, refrigeration, and > communications in an outage. I'm just tired of folks dabbling in off > grid, and not taking it seriously. Why in the world would someone even > consider using a product that its own manufacturer says should not be used > off grid? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/19/20 10:54 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Hilton, Wrenches > As I recall Tesla does not recommend their battery for off grid > applications, they need to be connected to the internet and without that > there may be warranty issues. I don't think that the off grid world and > daily cycling would work well over time either. How would you jump start > the power wall if it died do to low voltage cut out, a genny might work if > it connects and stays connected this might also affect the warranty. > Jerry > NABCEP PV inspector > > On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 9:02 AM Hilton Dier III > wrote: > >> Greetings, Wrenches, >> >> I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla >> Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it >> appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but >> apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, >> and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, >> this was the best solution. >> >> Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV >> system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? >> What is the lead time on these? >> >> Many Thanks, >> >> Hilton >> >> -- >> Hilton Dier III >> Missisquoi River Hydro >> Renewable Energy Design >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russo.lou at gmail.com Sun Jul 19 17:12:19 2020 From: russo.lou at gmail.com (Lou Russo) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2020 11:12:19 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience? In-Reply-To: References: <3e15ec41-4116-3a1e-06ef-884f1e693dc5@gmail.com> <0153e8e3-b290-0db8-3955-74b35f733ce1@solarray.com> Message-ID: I third what Ray says. It is also my understanding that Tesla does not allow their installers to be "subs". On Sun, Jul 19, 2020, 10:16 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: > I second what Ray says > Jerry > > On Sun, Jul 19, 2020, 12:49 PM Ray wrote: > >> There are so many really good Li Iron Phosphate Batteries available, that >> are actually designed for off grid, that I don't see any advantage to using >> a more unstable chemistry that is not designed for off grid. AC coupled >> is a 2nd huge no no for off grid, and can leave an unattended system >> completely inoperable. Anytime the main battery inverter shuts off for any >> of several reasons: overload, overtemp, low battery, etc., it also means >> that all charging of the system ceases as well. >> >> For Off grid, reliability is absolutely #1, and owner safety is directly >> related to that reliability. They can lose water, heat, refrigeration, and >> communications in an outage. I'm just tired of folks dabbling in off >> grid, and not taking it seriously. Why in the world would someone even >> consider using a product that its own manufacturer says should not be used >> off grid? >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 7/19/20 10:54 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >> >> Hilton, Wrenches >> As I recall Tesla does not recommend their battery for off grid >> applications, they need to be connected to the internet and without that >> there may be warranty issues. I don't think that the off grid world and >> daily cycling would work well over time either. How would you jump start >> the power wall if it died do to low voltage cut out, a genny might work if >> it connects and stays connected this might also affect the warranty. >> Jerry >> NABCEP PV inspector >> >> On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 9:02 AM Hilton Dier III >> wrote: >> >>> Greetings, Wrenches, >>> >>> I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla >>> Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it >>> appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but >>> apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, >>> and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, >>> this was the best solution. >>> >>> Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV >>> system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? >>> What is the lead time on these? >>> >>> Many Thanks, >>> >>> Hilton >>> >>> -- >>> Hilton Dier III >>> Missisquoi River Hydro >>> Renewable Energy Design >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jul 19 16:45:11 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2020 13:45:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9805233A-69DE-4556-B92D-A57E94B0AA5F@gmail.com> Does any know anything about the inverter in the power wall? I never hear anyone mention anything about it. Efficiency, surge, tare loss, repairability, AC charging capability, generator support, AGS, etc. All the normal inverter questions. Thanks Jay Peltz power. > On Jul 19, 2020, at 1:16 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > >  > I second what Ray says > Jerry > >> On Sun, Jul 19, 2020, 12:49 PM Ray wrote: >> There are so many really good Li Iron Phosphate Batteries available, that are actually designed for off grid, that I don't see any advantage to using a more unstable chemistry that is not designed for off grid. AC coupled is a 2nd huge no no for off grid, and can leave an unattended system completely inoperable. Anytime the main battery inverter shuts off for any of several reasons: overload, overtemp, low battery, etc., it also means that all charging of the system ceases as well. >> >> For Off grid, reliability is absolutely #1, and owner safety is directly related to that reliability. They can lose water, heat, refrigeration, and communications in an outage. I'm just tired of folks dabbling in off grid, and not taking it seriously. Why in the world would someone even consider using a product that its own manufacturer says should not be used off grid? >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 7/19/20 10:54 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>> Hilton, Wrenches >>> As I recall Tesla does not recommend their battery for off grid applications, they need to be connected to the internet and without that there may be warranty issues. I don't think that the off grid world and daily cycling would work well over time either. How would you jump start the power wall if it died do to low voltage cut out, a genny might work if it connects and stays connected this might also affect the warranty. >>> Jerry >>> NABCEP PV inspector >>> >>> On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 9:02 AM Hilton Dier III wrote: >>>> Greetings, Wrenches, >>>> >>>> I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, this was the best solution. >>>> >>>> Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? What is the lead time on these? >>>> >>>> Many Thanks, >>>> >>>> Hilton >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Hilton Dier III >>>> Missisquoi River Hydro >>>> Renewable Energy Design >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Jul 19 20:44:26 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2020 17:44:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Tesla_Powerwall_2=2E0_-_Experience=3F?= In-Reply-To: <9805233A-69DE-4556-B92D-A57E94B0AA5F@gmail.com> References: <9805233A-69DE-4556-B92D-A57E94B0AA5F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <802aa26124c3233081285600eede8001@127.0.0.1> Jay, We bypassed it all. It is rated at 5kw and 7kw surge for 30 seconds. If you stack them you increase both of these numbers. When I helped my client do this, it was to get a back-up to the back-up offgrid. So, there really was not the issue with someone losing their refrigeration or water pumps. We know how to do offgrid BTW. Most of my bad mistakes offgrid were over 40 years ago. It was a good project for me and I learned alot. There is the old rumor that they will do the Powerwall 3 and it will have some DC coupling. I doubt it. You also need their 1.8k$ gateway to make a powerwall system. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 19 Jul 2020 13:45:11 -0700, Jay wrote: Does any know anything about the inverter in the power wall? I never hear anyone mention anything about it. Efficiency, surge, tare loss, repairability, AC charging capability, generator support, AGS, etc. All the normal inverter questions. Thanks Jay Peltz power. On Jul 19, 2020, at 1:16 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: I second what Ray says Jerry On Sun, Jul 19, 2020, 12:49 PM Ray wrote: There are so many really good Li Iron Phosphate Batteries available, that are actually designed for off grid, that I don't see any advantage to using a more unstable chemistry that is not designed for off grid. AC coupled is a 2nd huge no no for off grid, and can leave an unattended system completely inoperable. Anytime the main battery inverter shuts off for any of several reasons: overload, overtemp, low battery, etc., it also means that all charging of the system ceases as well. For Off grid, reliability is absolutely #1, and owner safety is directly related to that reliability. They can lose water, heat, refrigeration, and communications in an outage. I'm just tired of folks dabbling in off grid, and not taking it seriously. Why in the world would someone even consider using a product that its own manufacturer says should not be used off grid? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/19/20 10:54 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Hilton, Wrenches As I recall Tesla does not recommend their battery for off grid applications, they need to be connected to the internet and without that there may be warranty issues. I don't think that the off grid world and daily cycling would work well over time either. How would you jump start the power wall if it died do to low voltage cut out, a genny might work if it connects and stays connected this might also affect the warranty. Jerry NABCEP PV inspector On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 9:02 AM Hilton Dier III wrote: Greetings, Wrenches, I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, this was the best solution. Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? What is the lead time on these? Many Thanks, Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Missisquoi River Hydro Renewable Energy Design _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [9] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [14] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [18] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [19] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:ray at solarray.com [4] mailto:hiltondier at gmail.com [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [15] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [19] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jul 20 10:07:22 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 07:07:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Tesla_Powerwall_2=2E0_-_Experience=3F?= In-Reply-To: <802aa26124c3233081285600eede8001@127.0.0.1> References: <9805233A-69DE-4556-B92D-A57E94B0AA5F@gmail.com> <802aa26124c3233081285600eede8001@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: The original Powerwall 1 was DC coupled and there are quite few up here in the mountains running fine. They are much better in my opinion than the 400vdc LG. When LG failed with the 48v battery they made the 400v with the electronics limiting the problem of surge current. That current pulled from an xw load test is what killed the 48v model, over a year of testing. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jul 20 12:53:15 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 12:53:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience? In-Reply-To: <3e15ec41-4116-3a1e-06ef-884f1e693dc5@gmail.com> References: <3e15ec41-4116-3a1e-06ef-884f1e693dc5@gmail.com> Message-ID: The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration from what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that. I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module. To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs. It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The Gateway acts as the AC point of coupling for everything to tie in together. I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall battery the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would need a way to disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can see how Enphase would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any way. Jason Szumlanski On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III wrote: > Greetings, Wrenches, > > I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla > Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it > appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but > apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, > and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, > this was the best solution. > > Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV > system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? > What is the lead time on these? > > Many Thanks, > > Hilton > > -- > Hilton Dier III > Missisquoi River Hydro > Renewable Energy Design > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Mon Jul 20 13:16:14 2020 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 11:16:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' w/awning array In-Reply-To: <953d7880-70a2-ffcc-7408-c10e377128c0@solarray.com> References: <953d7880-70a2-ffcc-7408-c10e377128c0@solarray.com> Message-ID: Much like Ray we have interpreted this protection to mean the "dangerous" parts of the solar and not the module frame. As such we employed plastic "deer fence" Tek screwed to some racking components in one array where the client wished for more tamper-resistance at the point where the conductors were close to the ground. Another solution similar to this is employed by All Earth Renewables for their ground mount arrays that employs a tasteful looking piece of opaque coroplast. It rests along the backside of the modules to keep people's hands from touching conductors and looks a little cleaner than a piece of mesh. Sam Haraldson Installation & Service Manager > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: deer-fence.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 436537 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jul 20 14:37:15 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 11:37:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' w/awning array In-Reply-To: References: <953d7880-70a2-ffcc-7408-c10e377128c0@solarray.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Much like the coroplast we have used corrugated sheets that we have cut to "pop in'' to each panel, not done for aesthetics but rather to protect the back sheet from animals but we did see a temperature increase as a result. Jerry NABCEP Solar Inspector On Mon, Jul 20, 2020, 10:16 AM Sam Haraldson wrote: > Much like Ray we have interpreted this protection to mean the "dangerous" > parts of the solar and not the module frame. As such we employed plastic > "deer fence" Tek screwed to some racking components in one array where the > client wished for more tamper-resistance at the point where the conductors > were close to the ground. > > Another solution similar to this is employed by All Earth Renewables for > their ground mount arrays that employs a tasteful looking piece of opaque > coroplast. It rests along the backside of the modules to keep people's > hands from touching conductors and looks a little cleaner than a piece of > mesh. > > Sam Haraldson > Installation & Service Manager > > > > > > > > > > >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Jul 20 13:52:24 2020 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 10:52:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience? In-Reply-To: References: <3e15ec41-4116-3a1e-06ef-884f1e693dc5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <27FD3E96-88EF-4148-9816-86647F4D534A@starlightsolar.com> Since the Powerwall is AC coupled, how will it know if the power source is a PV solar array or a generator if either feed the PV input? It seems simple AC switching is all that would be needed. I like to think outside the box but I’m not familiar with Powerwall. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 20, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration from what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that. I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module. To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs. It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The Gateway acts as the AC point of coupling for everything to tie in together. I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall battery the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would need a way to disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can see how Enphase would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any way. Jason Szumlanski On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III > wrote: Greetings, Wrenches, I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, this was the best solution. Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? What is the lead time on these? Many Thanks, Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Missisquoi River Hydro Renewable Energy Design -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Mon Jul 20 14:21:09 2020 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (palumbo131m at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 14:21:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' w/awning array In-Reply-To: References: <953d7880-70a2-ffcc-7408-c10e377128c0@solarray.com> Message-ID: <004601d65ec2$8b526eb0$a1f74c10$@gmail.com> Much like Sam’s but accomplished with plastic composite lattice. This pic is from 2011. The zip ties are stainless steel core. We operated only in Vermont where only 3 systems were inspected out of over 500 installs, this wire screening was not required. But I felt that we should be doing work up to a reasonable national safety standard, and 2 of us were NABCEP certified. David Palumbo 462 Solar Way Hyde Park, VT 05655 From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Sam Haraldson Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 1:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' w/awning array Much like Ray we have interpreted this protection to mean the "dangerous" parts of the solar and not the module frame. As such we employed plastic "deer fence" Tek screwed to some racking components in one array where the client wished for more tamper-resistance at the point where the conductors were close to the ground. Another solution similar to this is employed by All Earth Renewables for their ground mount arrays that employs a tasteful looking piece of opaque coroplast. It rests along the backside of the modules to keep people's hands from touching conductors and looks a little cleaner than a piece of mesh. Sam Haraldson Installation & Service Manager -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD0000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Smyth4.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 633203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Jul 20 15:01:10 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 12:01:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience? In-Reply-To: <27FD3E96-88EF-4148-9816-86647F4D534A@starlightsolar.com> References: <3e15ec41-4116-3a1e-06ef-884f1e693dc5@gmail.com> <27FD3E96-88EF-4148-9816-86647F4D534A@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Larry: I am not Tesla conversant but allow me to speculate: If any grid-tied system can be fed from a generator it could also feed back to the generator, which may damage said generator. The grid-tied system should therefore be connected upstream of any transfer switching, making it ineligible to be charged from the generator. William *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *larry at starlightsolar.com *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2020 10:52 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience? Since the Powerwall is AC coupled, how will it know if the power source is a PV solar array or a generator if either feed the PV input? It seems simple AC switching is all that would be needed. I like to think outside the box but I’m not familiar with Powerwall. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 20, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration from what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that. I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module. To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs. It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The Gateway acts as the AC point of coupling for everything to tie in together. I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall battery the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would need a way to disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can see how Enphase would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any way. Jason Szumlanski On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III wrote: Greetings, Wrenches, I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, this was the best solution. Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? What is the lead time on these? Many Thanks, Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Missisquoi River Hydro Renewable Energy Design -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Jul 20 16:07:45 2020 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 14:07:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' w/awning array In-Reply-To: References: <953d7880-70a2-ffcc-7408-c10e377128c0@solarray.com> Message-ID: I used Solarscrim to protect the underside module wiring of the array on one job. Good product and support and reasonably priced. Allan On 7/20/2020 11:16 AM, Sam Haraldson wrote: > Much like Ray we have interpreted this protection to mean the > "dangerous" parts of the solar and not the module frame.  As such we > employed plastic "deer fence" Tek screwed to some racking components > in one array where the client wished for more tamper-resistance at the > point where the conductors were close to the ground. > > Another solution similar to this is employed by All Earth Renewables > for their ground mount arrays that employs a tasteful looking piece of > opaque coroplast.  It rests along the backside of the modules to keep > people's hands from touching conductors and looks a little cleaner > than a piece of mesh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jul 20 15:56:35 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 12:56:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Tesla_Powerwall_2=2E0_-_Experience=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <3e15ec41-4116-3a1e-06ef-884f1e693dc5@gmail.com> <27FD3E96-88EF-4148-9816-86647F4D534A@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <3f12a1bc91062681d5341f7c2e4a991a@127.0.0.1> A screenshot may help make this easier. The back-up gateway is the key here. I would look on youtube for some more recent schemes to get this to work for you Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pw2 pw3 soon....PNG Type: image/png Size: 101828 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Mon Jul 20 16:01:35 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 16:01:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' w/awning array In-Reply-To: <004601d65ec2$8b526eb0$a1f74c10$@gmail.com> References: <953d7880-70a2-ffcc-7408-c10e377128c0@solarray.com> <004601d65ec2$8b526eb0$a1f74c10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Dave, Well my building inspector is just being a dick about the "need" for a fence surrounding the side of a wall-mount PV awning. He has mis-classified it as a ground-mount per NFPA 1 rules, which requires 10' clearance for ground mounts, and doesn't care about wires being accessible or not. This is Burlington VT after all. On 7/20/2020 2:45:04 PM, palumbo131m at gmail.com wrote: Much like Sam’s but accomplished with plastic composite lattice. This pic is from 2011. The zip ties are stainless steel core. We operated only in Vermont where only 3 systems were inspected out of over 500 installs, this wire screening was not required. But I felt that we should be doing work up to a reasonable national safety standard, and 2 of us were NABCEP certified.   David Palumbo 462 Solar Way Hyde Park, VT 05655   From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Sam Haraldson Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 1:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' w/awning array   Much like Ray we have interpreted this protection to mean the "dangerous" parts of the solar and not the module frame.  As such we employed plastic "deer fence" Tek screwed to some racking components in one array where the client wished for more tamper-resistance at the point where the conductors were close to the ground.    Another solution similar to this is employed by All Earth Renewables for their ground mount arrays that employs a tasteful looking piece of opaque coroplast.  It rests along the backside of the modules to keep people's hands from touching conductors and looks a little cleaner than a piece of mesh. Sam Haraldson [mailto:sam at onsiteenergyinc.com] Installation & Service Manager [Image removed by sender.] [http://www.onsiteenergyinc.com/] [Image removed by sender.] [https://www.facebook.com/onsiteenergysolar/] [Image removed by sender.] [https://www.instagram.com/onsiteenergyinc/] [Image removed by sender.] [https://twitter.com/onsiteenergyinc] [Image removed by sender.] [https://www.linkedin.com/company/onsite-energy-inc/] [Image removed by sender.] [https://onsiteenergyinc.com/bcorp]   -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD0000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Jul 20 16:25:03 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 13:25:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging In-Reply-To: <9484A772-6F8B-4207-B702-A042BE76F751@starlightsolar.com> References: <3e15ec41-4116-3a1e-06ef-884f1e693dc5@gmail.com> <27FD3E96-88EF-4148-9816-86647F4D534A@starlightsolar.com> <9484A772-6F8B-4207-B702-A042BE76F751@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <8df51a1921a683c6e27145442387350a@mail.gmail.com> Larry: If you can automate disabling grid-sell when connected to the generator in a fool proof manner then you may have a solution. If the system fails I see a damaged generator but not a life-safety issue. William *From:* larry at starlightsolar.com [mailto:larry at starlightsolar.com] *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2020 1:19 PM *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging Hi William, Thank you for your response. I was responding to the question of use off grid and Hiltons question about generator use. Jason said, "But Tesla is clear in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any way.” This is true. Powerwall uses AC coupled inverters for off grid charging. If AC from the micro-inverters was switched off and the generator provided the 240 Volt to the Powerwal inverter inputl, would that not be a temporary solution to the generator prohibition? The power wall would see incoming power and sync. Of course, the system *must* be monitored. If the power wall calls for cutback or disconnect by raising frequency, the generator should be disconnected, if it indeed works like that. If Powerwall provides an internal disconnect, then it would be safer for the user. Just trying to think outside the box. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 20, 2020, at 12:01 PM, William Miller wrote: Larry: I am not Tesla conversant but allow me to speculate: If any grid-tied system can be fed from a generator it could also feed back to the generator, which may damage said generator. The grid-tied system should therefore be connected upstream of any transfer switching, making it ineligible to be charged from the generator. William From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of larry at starlightsolar.com Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 10:52 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience? Since the Powerwall is AC coupled, how will it know if the power source is a PV solar array or a generator if either feed the PV input? It seems simple AC switching is all that would be needed. I like to think outside the box but I’m not familiar with Powerwall. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 20, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration from what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that. I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module. To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs. It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The Gateway acts as the AC point of coupling for everything to tie in together. I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall battery the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would need a way to disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can see how Enphase would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any way. Jason Szumlanski On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III wrote: Greetings, Wrenches, I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, this was the best solution. Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? What is the lead time on these? Many Thanks, Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Missisquoi River Hydro Renewable Energy Design _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 26109 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Jul 20 16:25:37 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 13:25:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience? In-Reply-To: References: <3e15ec41-4116-3a1e-06ef-884f1e693dc5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Tesla released new offgrid design and installation instructions April of this year. As a Powerwall dealer, we're under NDA not to share the document, but the Powerwall will now charge from the generator when it hits a certain SOC threshold if the PV is not running. I'm not sure about that caveat of not allowing the generator to run while the PV is running. It seems like there are plenty of times where there is low solar production and you want to fire up the generator to top off the batteries. They also have a low state of charge mode when SOC reaches 10%, that the Powerwall will turn on during the day for short periods of time just to test to see if the PV system will couple up to charge the battery. This AC-coupling method of reviving the battery may or not work depending on loads and PV sizing / production levels. One limitation to the NMC battery technology is that it doesn't work well particularly in the cold, so offrige Powerwall batteries should be installed in the heated envelope of the home. August On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration > from what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators > whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC > couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer > switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the > generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the > battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big > downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads > until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that. > > I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these > batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an > integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module. > To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it > can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery > capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least > that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the > battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump > start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a > few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs. > > It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are > generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this > yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway > device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The > Gateway acts as the AC point of coupling for everything to tie in together. > > I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall > battery the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would > need a way to disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can > see how Enphase would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear > in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any > way. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > > On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III > wrote: > >> Greetings, Wrenches, >> >> I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla >> Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it >> appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but >> apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, >> and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, >> this was the best solution. >> >> Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV >> system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? >> What is the lead time on these? >> >> Many Thanks, >> >> Hilton >> >> -- >> Hilton Dier III >> Missisquoi River Hydro >> Renewable Energy Design >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Jul 20 16:19:24 2020 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 13:19:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging In-Reply-To: References: <3e15ec41-4116-3a1e-06ef-884f1e693dc5@gmail.com> <27FD3E96-88EF-4148-9816-86647F4D534A@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <9484A772-6F8B-4207-B702-A042BE76F751@starlightsolar.com> Hi William, Thank you for your response. I was responding to the question of use off grid and Hiltons question about generator use. Jason said, "But Tesla is clear in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any way.” This is true. Powerwall uses AC coupled inverters for off grid charging. If AC from the micro-inverters was switched off and the generator provided the 240 Volt to the Powerwal inverter inputl, would that not be a temporary solution to the generator prohibition? The power wall would see incoming power and sync. Of course, the system must be monitored. If the power wall calls for cutback or disconnect by raising frequency, the generator should be disconnected, if it indeed works like that. If Powerwall provides an internal disconnect, then it would be safer for the user. Just trying to think outside the box. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 20, 2020, at 12:01 PM, William Miller wrote: Larry: I am not Tesla conversant but allow me to speculate: If any grid-tied system can be fed from a generator it could also feed back to the generator, which may damage said generator. The grid-tied system should therefore be connected upstream of any transfer switching, making it ineligible to be charged from the generator. William From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of larry at starlightsolar.com Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 10:52 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience? Since the Powerwall is AC coupled, how will it know if the power source is a PV solar array or a generator if either feed the PV input? It seems simple AC switching is all that would be needed. I like to think outside the box but I’m not familiar with Powerwall. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 20, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration from what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that. I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module. To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs. It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The Gateway acts as the AC point of coupling for everything to tie in together. I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall battery the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would need a way to disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can see how Enphase would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any way. Jason Szumlanski On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III wrote: > Greetings, Wrenches, > I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, this was the best solution. > Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? What is the lead time on these? > Many Thanks, > Hilton > -- > Hilton Dier III > Missisquoi River Hydro > Renewable Energy Design _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2020-07-20 at 1.01.52 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 80303 bytes Desc: not available URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Jul 20 17:36:38 2020 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 14:36:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience? In-Reply-To: References: <3e15ec41-4116-3a1e-06ef-884f1e693dc5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <683C2B9C-31D4-4735-A037-5DE7033DB97C@starlightsolar.com> This, from a Nov 03, 2017 Powerwall 2 document, makes sense. Generator input in place of utility syncs with PV inverters and Powerwall inverter. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 20, 2020, at 1:25 PM, August Goers wrote: Tesla released new offgrid design and installation instructions April of this year. As a Powerwall dealer, we're under NDA not to share the document, but the Powerwall will now charge from the generator when it hits a certain SOC threshold if the PV is not running. I'm not sure about that caveat of not allowing the generator to run while the PV is running. It seems like there are plenty of times where there is low solar production and you want to fire up the generator to top off the batteries. They also have a low state of charge mode when SOC reaches 10%, that the Powerwall will turn on during the day for short periods of time just to test to see if the PV system will couple up to charge the battery. This AC-coupling method of reviving the battery may or not work depending on loads and PV sizing / production levels. One limitation to the NMC battery technology is that it doesn't work well particularly in the cold, so offrige Powerwall batteries should be installed in the heated envelope of the home. August On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration from what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that. I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module. To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs. It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The Gateway acts as the AC point of coupling for everything to tie in together. I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall battery the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would need a way to disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can see how Enphase would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any way. Jason Szumlanski On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III wrote: Greetings, Wrenches, I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, this was the best solution. Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? What is the lead time on these? Many Thanks, Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Missisquoi River Hydro Renewable Energy Design _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2020-07-20 at 2.32.24 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 50106 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jul 20 17:39:28 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 17:39:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience? In-Reply-To: References: <3e15ec41-4116-3a1e-06ef-884f1e693dc5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi August, To clarify, will the Gateway do AGS, or is this for manual charging only? If they get this right, it could be a gamechanger for people who want a hybrid system with generator auxiliary (whether whole-house generator or portable perhaps). The big problem in Florida is after a storm you need air conditioning, but running that off Powerwalls can be a challenge due to cost and/or capacity. On the other hand, burning limited fuel for varying loads isn't a really efficient use of a generator. A hybrid system makes a lot of sense here, especially for clients that have natural gas at their home already. Enphase has an edge I think because they can fire up a generator and have the Envoy tell the microinverters to cease production. Of course, this functionality is not yet released on the software, but they have generator lugs build into their Gateway, so you know they are thinking along these lines. Things are getting very interesting with these "AC Batteries." Jason Szumlanski On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 5:30 PM August Goers wrote: > Tesla released new offgrid design and installation instructions April of > this year. As a Powerwall dealer, we're under NDA not to share the > document, but the Powerwall will now charge from the generator when it hits > a certain SOC threshold if the PV is not running. I'm not sure about that > caveat of not allowing the generator to run while the PV is running. It > seems like there are plenty of times where there is low solar production > and you want to fire up the generator to top off the batteries. They also > have a low state of charge mode when SOC reaches 10%, that the Powerwall > will turn on during the day for short periods of time just to test to see > if the PV system will couple up to charge the battery. This AC-coupling > method of reviving the battery may or not work depending on loads and PV > sizing / production levels. > > One limitation to the NMC battery technology is that it doesn't work well > particularly in the cold, so offrige Powerwall batteries should be > installed in the heated envelope of the home. > > August > > > On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration >> from what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators >> whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC >> couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer >> switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the >> generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the >> battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big >> downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads >> until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that. >> >> I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these >> batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an >> integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module. >> To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it >> can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery >> capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least >> that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the >> battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump >> start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a >> few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs. >> >> It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are >> generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this >> yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway >> device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The >> Gateway acts as the AC point of coupling for everything to tie in together. >> >> I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall >> battery the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would >> need a way to disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can >> see how Enphase would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear >> in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any >> way. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III >> wrote: >> >>> Greetings, Wrenches, >>> >>> I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla >>> Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it >>> appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but >>> apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, >>> and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, >>> this was the best solution. >>> >>> Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV >>> system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? >>> What is the lead time on these? >>> >>> Many Thanks, >>> >>> Hilton >>> >>> -- >>> Hilton Dier III >>> Missisquoi River Hydro >>> Renewable Energy Design >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Jul 20 18:39:19 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 15:39:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience? In-Reply-To: References: <3e15ec41-4116-3a1e-06ef-884f1e693dc5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jason - I'm not familiar with the acronym AGS, but it will do solar curtailment via frequency shifting. The tech doc says that the generator will turn on once SOC reaches a lower threshold and remain on to power loads and charge the Powerwall(s). So, it is designed for automatic generator operation. I haven't personally installed an off grid Powerwall system although we do have one in the final permitting stage. Yea, the ESS market in general is really heating up with lots of cool products hitting the market. The Microgrid Interconnect Device (MID) such as the Tesla Gateway, Enphase Empower smart switch, and SolarEdge Backup Interface is a particular game changer. For anyone who hasn't read this article by Bill Brooks, I highly recommend it: https://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/features/renewables/connection-of-normal-and-emergency-power-sources-for-homes/ August On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:15 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Hi August, > > To clarify, will the Gateway do AGS, or is this for manual charging only? > If they get this right, it could be a gamechanger for people who want > a hybrid system with generator auxiliary (whether whole-house generator or > portable perhaps). The big problem in Florida is after a storm you need air > conditioning, but running that off Powerwalls can be a challenge due to > cost and/or capacity. On the other hand, burning limited fuel for varying > loads isn't a really efficient use of a generator. A hybrid system makes a > lot of sense here, especially for clients that have natural gas at their > home already. > > Enphase has an edge I think because they can fire up a generator and have > the Envoy tell the microinverters to cease production. Of course, this > functionality is not yet released on the software, but they have generator > lugs build into their Gateway, so you know they are thinking along these > lines. > > Things are getting very interesting with these "AC Batteries." > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 5:30 PM August Goers wrote: > >> Tesla released new offgrid design and installation instructions April of >> this year. As a Powerwall dealer, we're under NDA not to share the >> document, but the Powerwall will now charge from the generator when it hits >> a certain SOC threshold if the PV is not running. I'm not sure about that >> caveat of not allowing the generator to run while the PV is running. It >> seems like there are plenty of times where there is low solar production >> and you want to fire up the generator to top off the batteries. They also >> have a low state of charge mode when SOC reaches 10%, that the Powerwall >> will turn on during the day for short periods of time just to test to see >> if the PV system will couple up to charge the battery. This AC-coupling >> method of reviving the battery may or not work depending on loads and PV >> sizing / production levels. >> >> One limitation to the NMC battery technology is that it doesn't work well >> particularly in the cold, so offrige Powerwall batteries should be >> installed in the heated envelope of the home. >> >> August >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration >>> from what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators >>> whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC >>> couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer >>> switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the >>> generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the >>> battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big >>> downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads >>> until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that. >>> >>> I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these >>> batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an >>> integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module. >>> To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it >>> can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery >>> capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least >>> that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the >>> battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump >>> start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a >>> few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs. >>> >>> It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are >>> generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this >>> yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway >>> device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The >>> Gateway acts as the AC point of coupling for everything to tie in together. >>> >>> I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall >>> battery the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would >>> need a way to disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can >>> see how Enphase would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear >>> in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any >>> way. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Greetings, Wrenches, >>>> >>>> I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla >>>> Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it >>>> appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but >>>> apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, >>>> and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, >>>> this was the best solution. >>>> >>>> Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV >>>> system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? >>>> What is the lead time on these? >>>> >>>> Many Thanks, >>>> >>>> Hilton >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Hilton Dier III >>>> Missisquoi River Hydro >>>> Renewable Energy Design >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Jul 20 19:58:28 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 17:58:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' w/awning array In-Reply-To: References: <953d7880-70a2-ffcc-7408-c10e377128c0@solarray.com> <004601d65ec2$8b526eb0$a1f74c10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49b5cb59-715e-d564-a80f-cd736296f4b5@solarray.com> If its attached to the building then its subject to 690.12.  Is he also making you comply with rapid shutdown? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/20/20 2:01 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > Hey Dave, > Well my building inspector is just being a dick about the "need" for a > fence surrounding the side of a wall-mount PV awning. He has > mis-classified it as a ground-mount per NFPA 1 rules, which requires > 10' clearance for ground mounts, and doesn't care about wires being > accessible or not. This is Burlington VT after all. >> >> On 7/20/2020 2:45:04 PM, palumbo131m at gmail.com >> wrote: >> >> Much like Sam’s but accomplished with plastic composite lattice. This >> pic is from 2011. The zip ties are stainless steel core. >> >> We operated only in Vermont where only 3 systems were inspected out >> of over 500 installs, this wire screening was not required. But I >> felt that we should be doing work up to a reasonable national safety >> standard, and 2 of us were NABCEP certified. >> >> David Palumbo >> >> 462 Solar Way >> >> Hyde Park, VT 05655 >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Sam Haraldson >> *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2020 1:16 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' w/awning array >> >> Much like Ray we have interpreted this protection to mean the >> "dangerous" parts of the solar and not the module frame.  As such we >> employed plastic "deer fence" Tek screwed to some racking components >> in one array where the client wished for more tamper-resistance at >> the point where the conductors were close to the ground. >> >> Another solution similar to this is employed by All Earth Renewables >> for their ground mount arrays that employs a tasteful looking piece >> of opaque coroplast.  It rests along the backside of the modules to >> keep people's hands from touching conductors and looks a little >> cleaner than a piece of mesh. >> >> >> >> >> >> *Sam Haraldson * >> >> >> >> Installation & Service Manager >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Image removed by sender. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Image removed by sender. >> >> >> >> >> Image removed by sender. >> >> >> >> >> Image removed by sender. >> >> >> >> >> Image removed by sender. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Image removed by sender. >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Jul 21 09:11:25 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 09:11:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging In-Reply-To: <8df51a1921a683c6e27145442387350a@mail.gmail.com> References: <3e15ec41-4116-3a1e-06ef-884f1e693dc5@gmail.com> <27FD3E96-88EF-4148-9816-86647F4D534A@starlightsolar.com> <9484A772-6F8B-4207-B702-A042BE76F751@starlightsolar.com> <8df51a1921a683c6e27145442387350a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <65f2b65675efb142449577777f824c2e@redwoodalliance.org> Larry, Connect the coil of a 240 VAC contactor to the output of the generator circuit. Have the contacts of the relay break the AC coupled feed. Drake --- On 2020-07-20 16:25, William Miller wrote: >> > Larry: > > If you can automate disabling grid-sell when connected to the generator in a fool proof manner then you may have a solution. If the system fails I see a damaged generator but not a life-safety issue. > > William > > From: larry at starlightsolar.com [mailto:larry at starlightsolar.com] > Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 1:19 PM > To: William Miller; RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging > > Hi William, > > Thank you for your response. I was responding to the question of use off grid and Hiltons question about generator use. Jason said, "But Tesla is clear in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any way." This is true. > > Powerwall uses AC coupled inverters for off grid charging. If AC from the micro-inverters was switched off and the generator provided the 240 Volt to the Powerwal inverter inputl, would that not be a temporary solution to the generator prohibition? The power wall would see incoming power and sync. Of course, the system must be monitored. If the power wall calls for cutback or disconnect by raising frequency, the generator should be disconnected, if it indeed works like that. If Powerwall provides an internal disconnect, then it would be safer for the user. Just trying to think outside the box. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > On Jul 20, 2020, at 12:01 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Larry: > > I am not Tesla conversant but allow me to speculate: If any grid-tied system can be fed from a generator it could also feed back to the generator, which may damage said generator. The grid-tied system should therefore be connected upstream of any transfer switching, making it ineligible to be charged from the generator. > > William > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of larry at starlightsolar.com > Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 10:52 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience? > > Since the Powerwall is AC coupled, how will it know if the power source is a PV solar array or a generator if either feed the PV input? It seems simple AC switching is all that would be needed. I like to think outside the box but I'm not familiar with Powerwall. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > On Jul 20, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration from what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that. > > I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module. To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs. > > It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The Gateway acts as the AC point of coupling for everything to tie in together. > > I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall battery the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would need a way to disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can see how Enphase would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any way. > > Jason Szumlanski > > On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III wrote: > > Greetings, Wrenches, > I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, this was the best solution. > Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? What is the lead time on these? > Many Thanks, > Hilton > -- > Hilton Dier III > Missisquoi River Hydro > Renewable Energy Design > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] Links: ------ [1] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 26109 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 21 11:52:31 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 08:52:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging In-Reply-To: <65f2b65675efb142449577777f824c2e@redwoodalliance.org> References: <65f2b65675efb142449577777f824c2e@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Connecting a generator output to the inverter output has the potential to damage the generator control board. Another way to go is to put a diode on the output of the generator and parallel it into the DC input to the GT inverter. Preferably you’d want a larger generator than the GT inverter. However if it’s smaller the GT inverter should reduce its output if the generator output sags too much. But they might not play that well together. Given all that I’ve heard here, lots of reasons the PW isn’t ready for offgrid. With the specific situation of how do you black start the PW if it’s only ac coupled? this problem is common with all ac coupled systems, but usually you can get a generator/battery charger or dc couple some PV to jump start the system. With the PW, that doesn’t sound possible without surgery, and probably warranty issues. Jay Peltz power. > On Jul 21, 2020, at 7:52 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > >  > Larry, > > Connect the coil of a 240 VAC contactor to the output of the generator circuit. Have the contacts of the relay break the AC coupled feed. > > Drake > > --- > > > >> On 2020-07-20 16:25, William Miller wrote: >> >>> >> Larry: >> >> >> >> If you can automate disabling grid-sell when connected to the generator in a fool proof manner then you may have a solution. If the system fails I see a damaged generator but not a life-safety issue. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> >> >> From: larry at starlightsolar.com [mailto:larry at starlightsolar.com] >> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 1:19 PM >> To: William Miller; RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging >> >> >> >> Hi William, >> >> Thank you for your response. I was responding to the question of use off grid and Hiltons question about generator use. Jason said, "But Tesla is clear in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any way." This is true. >> >> >> >> Powerwall uses AC coupled inverters for off grid charging. If AC from the micro-inverters was switched off and the generator provided the 240 Volt to the Powerwal inverter inputl, would that not be a temporary solution to the generator prohibition? The power wall would see incoming power and sync. Of course, the system must be monitored. If the power wall calls for cutback or disconnect by raising frequency, the generator should be disconnected, if it indeed works like that. If Powerwall provides an internal disconnect, then it would be safer for the user. Just trying to think outside the box. >> >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jul 20, 2020, at 12:01 PM, William Miller wrote: >> >> Larry: >> >> I am not Tesla conversant but allow me to speculate: If any grid-tied system can be fed from a generator it could also feed back to the generator, which may damage said generator. The grid-tied system should therefore be connected upstream of any transfer switching, making it ineligible to be charged from the generator. >> >> William >> >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of larry at starlightsolar.com >> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 10:52 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience? >> >> Since the Powerwall is AC coupled, how will it know if the power source is a PV solar array or a generator if either feed the PV input? It seems simple AC switching is all that would be needed. I like to think outside the box but I'm not familiar with Powerwall. >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> >> >> On Jul 20, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> >> The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration from what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that. >> >> I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module. To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs. >> >> It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The Gateway acts as the AC point of coupling for everything to tie in together. >> >> I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall battery the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would need a way to disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can see how Enphase would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any way. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III wrote: >> >> >> Greetings, Wrenches, >> I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, this was the best solution. >> Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? What is the lead time on these? >> Many Thanks, >> Hilton >> -- >> Hilton Dier III >> Missisquoi River Hydro >> Renewable Energy Design >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at sesre.com Tue Jul 21 14:11:51 2020 From: matt at sesre.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 18:11:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging In-Reply-To: References: <65f2b65675efb142449577777f824c2e@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Jay, The Tesla Gateway has a 12v input terminal for boot up. To startup my off grid Powerwall we wired in a 12V power supply to the input terminals and plugged the other side into a grid-connected outlet. Some version of this is part of their off grid process. We’ve been running a reasonable portion of our offices off grid with a Powerwall since the winter. Other than a microwave incompatibility issue, it seems pretty reliable and has a more friendly user-interface than most manufacturers. I cannot speak to generator backup with the Powerwall as I have not personally been in this situation (in an emergency we could manually transfer back to grid). I do know they now have a few approved generators for off grid. I just haven’t done that. Matt From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 11:53 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging Connecting a generator output to the inverter output has the potential to damage the generator control board. Another way to go is to put a diode on the output of the generator and parallel it into the DC input to the GT inverter. Preferably you’d want a larger generator than the GT inverter. However if it’s smaller the GT inverter should reduce its output if the generator output sags too much. But they might not play that well together. Given all that I’ve heard here, lots of reasons the PW isn’t ready for offgrid. With the specific situation of how do you black start the PW if it’s only ac coupled? this problem is common with all ac coupled systems, but usually you can get a generator/battery charger or dc couple some PV to jump start the system. With the PW, that doesn’t sound possible without surgery, and probably warranty issues. Jay Peltz power. On Jul 21, 2020, at 7:52 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote:  Larry, Connect the coil of a 240 VAC contactor to the output of the generator circuit. Have the contacts of the relay break the AC coupled feed. Drake --- On 2020-07-20 16:25, William Miller wrote: Larry: If you can automate disabling grid-sell when connected to the generator in a fool proof manner then you may have a solution. If the system fails I see a damaged generator but not a life-safety issue. William From: larry at starlightsolar.com [mailto:larry at starlightsolar.com] Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 1:19 PM To: William Miller; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging Hi William, Thank you for your response. I was responding to the question of use off grid and Hiltons question about generator use. Jason said, "But Tesla is clear in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any way." This is true. Powerwall uses AC coupled inverters for off grid charging. If AC from the micro-inverters was switched off and the generator provided the 240 Volt to the Powerwal inverter inputl, would that not be a temporary solution to the generator prohibition? The power wall would see incoming power and sync. Of course, the system must be monitored. If the power wall calls for cutback or disconnect by raising frequency, the generator should be disconnected, if it indeed works like that. If Powerwall provides an internal disconnect, then it would be safer for the user. Just trying to think outside the box. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 20, 2020, at 12:01 PM, William Miller > wrote: Larry: I am not Tesla conversant but allow me to speculate: If any grid-tied system can be fed from a generator it could also feed back to the generator, which may damage said generator. The grid-tied system should therefore be connected upstream of any transfer switching, making it ineligible to be charged from the generator. William From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of larry at starlightsolar.com Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 10:52 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience? Since the Powerwall is AC coupled, how will it know if the power source is a PV solar array or a generator if either feed the PV input? It seems simple AC switching is all that would be needed. I like to think outside the box but I'm not familiar with Powerwall. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 20, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration from what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that. I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module. To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs. It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The Gateway acts as the AC point of coupling for everything to tie in together. I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall battery the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would need a way to disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can see how Enphase would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any way. Jason Szumlanski On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III > wrote: Greetings, Wrenches, I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, this was the best solution. Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? What is the lead time on these? Many Thanks, Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Missisquoi River Hydro Renewable Energy Design _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jul 21 16:58:45 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 16:58:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience? In-Reply-To: <683C2B9C-31D4-4735-A037-5DE7033DB97C@starlightsolar.com> References: <3e15ec41-4116-3a1e-06ef-884f1e693dc5@gmail.com> <683C2B9C-31D4-4735-A037-5DE7033DB97C@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Whoever drew that up made it look like the generator is the common pole. I know what they were getting at, but it's a pretty poor way of depicting it. On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 6:15 PM larry at starlightsolar.com < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > This, from a Nov 03, 2017 Powerwall 2 document, makes sense. Generator > input in place of utility syncs with PV inverters and Powerwall inverter. > > Thank you, > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > > On Jul 20, 2020, at 1:25 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Tesla released new offgrid design and installation instructions April of > this year. As a Powerwall dealer, we're under NDA not to share > the document, but the Powerwall will now charge from the generator when it > hits a certain SOC threshold if the PV is not running. I'm not sure about > that caveat of not allowing the generator to run while the PV is running. > It seems like there are plenty of times where there is low solar production > and you want to fire up the generator to top off the batteries. They also > have a low state of charge mode when SOC reaches 10%, that the Powerwall > will turn on during the day for short periods of time just to test to see > if the PV system will couple up to charge the battery. This AC-coupling > method of reviving the battery may or not work depending on loads and PV > sizing / production levels. > > One limitation to the NMC battery technology is that it doesn't work well > particularly in the cold, so offrige Powerwall batteries should > be installed in the heated envelope of the home. > > August > > > On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration > from what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators > whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC > couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer > switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the > generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the > battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big > downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads > until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that. > > I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these > batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an > integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module. > To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO > it can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery > capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least > that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the > battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump > start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a > few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs. > > It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are > generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this > yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway > device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The > Gateway acts as the AC point of coupling for everything to tie in together. > > I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall > battery the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would > need a way to disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can > see how Enphase would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear > in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any > way. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > > On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III > wrote: > Greetings, Wrenches, > > I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla > Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it > appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but > apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, > and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, > this was the best solution. > > Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV > system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power > without barfing? What is the lead time on these? > > Many Thanks, > > Hilton > > -- > Hilton Dier III > Missisquoi River Hydro > Renewable Energy Design > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2020-07-20 at 2.32.24 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 50106 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jul 21 17:04:22 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 17:04:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience? In-Reply-To: References: <3e15ec41-4116-3a1e-06ef-884f1e693dc5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry - Automatic Generator Start. What I'm wondering now is how does it manage PV inverter output and generator power operating simultaneously? I think they are saying the generator will not automatically start if there is PV inverter input output present. If that is the case, what happens when the batteries are at 10%, the load is very high, and there is a trickle of PV? That's a scenario where you WANT the generator to start, but I don't see how they can do it unless there is a mechanism to disconnect the PV. I guess in theory in this scenario the PV inverter output and generator output would both be drawn by the batteries making it a one way flow of energy, but it doesn't seem like a failsafe solution. I really wish they would provide us Wrenches with enough information to do our jobs. On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 6:58 PM August Goers wrote: > Hi Jason - I'm not familiar with the acronym AGS, but it will do solar > curtailment via frequency shifting. The tech doc says that the generator > will turn on once SOC reaches a lower threshold and remain on to power > loads and charge the Powerwall(s). So, it is designed for automatic > generator operation. I haven't personally installed an off grid Powerwall > system although we do have one in the final permitting stage. > > Yea, the ESS market in general is really heating up with lots of cool > products hitting the market. The Microgrid Interconnect Device (MID) such > as the Tesla Gateway, Enphase Empower smart switch, and SolarEdge Backup > Interface is a particular game changer. For anyone who hasn't read this > article by Bill Brooks, I highly recommend it: > > > https://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/features/renewables/connection-of-normal-and-emergency-power-sources-for-homes/ > > > August > > > On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:15 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Hi August, >> >> To clarify, will the Gateway do AGS, or is this for manual charging only? >> If they get this right, it could be a gamechanger for people who want >> a hybrid system with generator auxiliary (whether whole-house generator or >> portable perhaps). The big problem in Florida is after a storm you need air >> conditioning, but running that off Powerwalls can be a challenge due to >> cost and/or capacity. On the other hand, burning limited fuel for varying >> loads isn't a really efficient use of a generator. A hybrid system makes a >> lot of sense here, especially for clients that have natural gas at their >> home already. >> >> Enphase has an edge I think because they can fire up a generator and have >> the Envoy tell the microinverters to cease production. Of course, this >> functionality is not yet released on the software, but they have generator >> lugs build into their Gateway, so you know they are thinking along these >> lines. >> >> Things are getting very interesting with these "AC Batteries." >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 5:30 PM August Goers wrote: >> >>> Tesla released new offgrid design and installation instructions April of >>> this year. As a Powerwall dealer, we're under NDA not to share the >>> document, but the Powerwall will now charge from the generator when it hits >>> a certain SOC threshold if the PV is not running. I'm not sure about that >>> caveat of not allowing the generator to run while the PV is running. It >>> seems like there are plenty of times where there is low solar production >>> and you want to fire up the generator to top off the batteries. They also >>> have a low state of charge mode when SOC reaches 10%, that the Powerwall >>> will turn on during the day for short periods of time just to test to see >>> if the PV system will couple up to charge the battery. This AC-coupling >>> method of reviving the battery may or not work depending on loads and PV >>> sizing / production levels. >>> >>> One limitation to the NMC battery technology is that it doesn't work >>> well particularly in the cold, so offrige Powerwall batteries should be >>> installed in the heated envelope of the home. >>> >>> August >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration >>>> from what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators >>>> whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC >>>> couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer >>>> switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the >>>> generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the >>>> battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big >>>> downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads >>>> until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that. >>>> >>>> I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these >>>> batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an >>>> integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module. >>>> To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it >>>> can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery >>>> capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least >>>> that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the >>>> battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump >>>> start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a >>>> few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs. >>>> >>>> It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are >>>> generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this >>>> yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway >>>> device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The >>>> Gateway acts as the AC point of coupling for everything to tie in together. >>>> >>>> I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall >>>> battery the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would >>>> need a way to disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can >>>> see how Enphase would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear >>>> in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any >>>> way. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Greetings, Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the >>>>> Tesla Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it >>>>> and it appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, >>>>> but apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about >>>>> technology, and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer >>>>> if, in fact, this was the best solution. >>>>> >>>>> Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV >>>>> system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? >>>>> What is the lead time on these? >>>>> >>>>> Many Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Hilton >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Hilton Dier III >>>>> Missisquoi River Hydro >>>>> Renewable Energy Design >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jul 21 16:55:26 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 16:55:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging In-Reply-To: <65f2b65675efb142449577777f824c2e@redwoodalliance.org> References: <3e15ec41-4116-3a1e-06ef-884f1e693dc5@gmail.com> <27FD3E96-88EF-4148-9816-86647F4D534A@starlightsolar.com> <9484A772-6F8B-4207-B702-A042BE76F751@starlightsolar.com> <8df51a1921a683c6e27145442387350a@mail.gmail.com> <65f2b65675efb142449577777f824c2e@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: I'm not a fan of this strategy. What happens when the coil fails? It's not a failsafe solution IMO. Jason Szumlanski On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 10:52 AM wrote: > Larry, > > Connect the coil of a 240 VAC contactor to the output of the generator > circuit. Have the contacts of the relay break the AC coupled feed. > > Drake > --- > > > > On 2020-07-20 16:25, William Miller wrote: > > > > Larry: > > > > If you can automate disabling grid-sell when connected to the generator in > a fool proof manner then you may have a solution. If the system fails I > see a damaged generator but not a life-safety issue. > > > > William > > > > > > *From:* larry at starlightsolar.com [mailto:larry at starlightsolar.com] > *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2020 1:19 PM > *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator > charging > > > > Hi William, > > Thank you for your response. I was responding to the question of use off > grid and Hiltons question about generator use. Jason said, "But Tesla is > clear in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall > in any way." This is true. > > > > Powerwall uses AC coupled inverters for off grid charging. If AC from the > micro-inverters was switched off and the generator provided the 240 Volt to > the Powerwal inverter inputl, would that not be a temporary solution to the > generator prohibition? The power wall would see incoming power and sync. Of > course, the system *must* be monitored. If the power wall calls for > cutback or disconnect by raising frequency, the generator should be > disconnected, if it indeed works like that. If Powerwall provides an > internal disconnect, then it would be safer for the user. Just trying to > think outside the box. > > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > On Jul 20, 2020, at 12:01 PM, William Miller > wrote: > > Larry: > > I am not Tesla conversant but allow me to speculate: If any grid-tied > system can be fed from a generator it could also feed back to the > generator, which may damage said generator. The grid-tied system should > therefore be connected upstream of any transfer switching, making it > ineligible to be charged from the generator. > > William > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of larry at starlightsolar.com > Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 10:52 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience? > > Since the Powerwall is AC coupled, how will it know if the power source is > a PV solar array or a generator if either feed the PV input? It seems > simple AC switching is all that would be needed. I like to think outside > the box but I'm not familiar with Powerwall. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > On Jul 20, 2020, at 9:53 AM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration > from what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators > whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC > couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer > switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, > the generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the > battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big > downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads > until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that. > > I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these > batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an > integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module. > To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it > can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery > capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least > that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the > battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump > start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a > few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs. > > It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are > generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this > yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway > device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The > Gateway acts as the AC point of coupling for everything to tie in together. > > I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall > battery the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would > need a way to disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can > see how Enphase would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear > in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any > way. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III > wrote: > > Greetings, Wrenches, > I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla > Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it > appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but > apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, > and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, > this was the best solution. > Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV > system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? > What is the lead time on these? > Many Thanks, > Hilton > -- > Hilton Dier III > Missisquoi River Hydro > Renewable Energy Design > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 26109 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Jul 21 17:46:57 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 14:46:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed Message-ID: Friends: If anyone has a manual for this tracker, I would really be grateful to receive it. Pretty sure it’s some form of Wattsun tracker. TIA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_9176.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 40360 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- William Miller www.millersolar.com From ray at solarray.com Tue Jul 21 20:38:56 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 18:38:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging In-Reply-To: References: <65f2b65675efb142449577777f824c2e@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: That's going to be long extension cord for most off grid projects....... Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/21/20 12:11 PM, Matt Partymiller wrote: > > Jay, > > The Tesla Gateway has a 12v input terminal for boot up.  To startup my > off grid Powerwall we wired in a 12V power supply to the input > terminals and plugged the other side into a grid-connected outlet. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jul 21 22:37:38 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 19:37:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not enough resolution to id. Best guess is pre AZ125 which is long gone. Ask Jeff at Wattsun! --Dave Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 14:46:57 -0700, William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > If anyone has a manual for this tracker, I would really be grateful to > receive it. Pretty sure it’s some form of Wattsun tracker. > > TIA From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Jul 22 00:22:53 2020 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 22:22:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10172c37-4ce6-dcc2-e278-7b24e39fbe73@sindelarsolar.com> I'm guessing it's an azimuth Wattsun, given that only one linear actuator is visible, and the earlier tilt'n'roll had two. I sent William a 2009 AZ-125 manual in pdf. Allan On 7/21/2020 8:37 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > Not enough resolution to id. Best guess is pre AZ-125 which is long gone. > Ask Jeff at Wattsun! --Dave > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 14:46:57 -0700, William Miller > wrote: >> Friends: >> >> If anyone has a manual for this tracker, I would really be grateful to >> receive it. Pretty sure it’s some form of Wattsun tracker. -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jul 22 10:35:39 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 07:35:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: RE: Tracker manual needed Message-ID: I can get you Jeff at Watsons' number but I was told 10 years ago there is nothing left for that unit. You are going to have to fabricate or modify. The linear motor has had 3 later changes and maybe you could get one to work. If it is the electronics, you are done as that would be component level troubleshooting. That is long gone unless you have the knack? Probably best to just set it fixed and add more solar. The manual you got for the az 125 is also not made anymore but the motor is the same as the az 250 (8" pole) and the electronics can be updated to the new controller. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 22:04:46 -0700, William Miller wrote: Dave/Wrenches: Thanks to Allan for sending me the manual for an AZ125. It is not that model. I will file the manual for the AZ15 anyway as that was missing from my library and there are two of those on this project as well. I apologize if the photo was not great. I can never remember the file size limitations. Attached is maybe a better photo. Hope it goes through. This is a single axis tracker without a manual seasonal tilt adjustment. The fixed axis is kind of a square yoke assembly. The fixed axis is level. So I guess this means either this unit is meant for equatorial installation-- or the tracking motion is for tilt tracking only. The control is in two boxes: one with the shade pole and one with the electronics, but no external switches. I've had some long days in the heat lately so maybe I am missing some information needed here. I called the number on the Wattsun website and left a message. Is there a preferred contact anyone out there knows? Thanks to everyone for trying to help out. When you are alone and stuck the Wrenches is a tremendous resource. William -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [3]] On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 7:38 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed Not enough resolution to id. Best guess is pre AZ125 which is long gone. Ask Jeff at Wattsun! --Dave Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [5] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 14:46:57 -0700, William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > If anyone has a manual for this tracker, I would really be grateful to > receive it. Pretty sure it's some form of Wattsun tracker. > > TIA _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [5] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [6] mailto:william at millersolar.com [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Wed Jul 22 10:40:07 2020 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 07:40:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall Emergency Stop Button Message-ID: Wrenches, Does anyone have experience installing an 'Emergency Stop Button' for Tesla Powerwall or similar energy storage systems? Not a knife-blade disco but a low-voltage 'plunger' style button that shuts down all power (even in backup mode) for first responders. Our AHJ has been forcing us to install gigantic 200A discos between our ESS and the main service. Tried explaining that these systems are designed to operate when the power goes out so the disco is next to useless but... AHJs will be AHJs... I've attached a pic to give an idea of what I'm looking for. Hoping to find a reliable option, with the following characteristics: *• Must be Lockable on ON/OFF position• Must have a clear indication of ON/OFF position• Must be outdoor rated (NEMA 3R or higher)• Should observe 12V, 0.1 A ratings* Thanks -- Loren Ortiz Technical PV Design Specialist - Worker Owner/Board Member loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* -- *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2020-07-22 at 7.32.51 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 325194 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rich at solartechvt.com Wed Jul 22 07:24:48 2020 From: rich at solartechvt.com (rich at solartechvt.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 07:24:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - AC Coupling Message-ID: <027801d6601a$b634d420$229e7c60$@solartechvt.com> Considering the lack of public info available for the Powerwall, does anyone have any insight into the AC coupling limits for a single Powerwall? For example, can we AC couple 10kw Solar Edge to a single Powerwall? Thanks Rich From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 8:39 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging That's going to be long extension cord for most off grid projects....... Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/21/20 12:11 PM, Matt Partymiller wrote: Jay, The Tesla Gateway has a 12v input terminal for boot up. To startup my off grid Powerwall we wired in a 12V power supply to the input terminals and plugged the other side into a grid-connected outlet. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jul 22 01:22:24 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 22:22:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience? In-Reply-To: References: <3e15ec41-4116-3a1e-06ef-884f1e693dc5@gmail.com> <683C2B9C-31D4-4735-A037-5DE7033DB97C@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <75438c7e0dfa2fa099f0fe105c2c231b@mail.gmail.com> Jason: That is an excellent observation. I instinctively surmised what was intended, but I missed that the drawing violates schematic norms in a big way. (Or does the drawing indicate that the Powerwall2 is so awesome you can sell generator power to the grid with the Powerwall2 not even connected?) William *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski *Sent:* Tuesday, July 21, 2020 1:59 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience? Whoever drew that up made it look like the generator is the common pole. I know what they were getting at, but it's a pretty poor way of depicting it. On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 6:15 PM larry at starlightsolar.com < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: This, from a Nov 03, 2017 Powerwall 2 document, makes sense. Generator input in place of utility syncs with PV inverters and Powerwall inverter. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 20, 2020, at 1:25 PM, August Goers wrote: Tesla released new offgrid design and installation instructions April of this year. As a Powerwall dealer, we're under NDA not to share the document, but the Powerwall will now charge from the generator when it hits a certain SOC threshold if the PV is not running. I'm not sure about that caveat of not allowing the generator to run while the PV is running. It seems like there are plenty of times where there is low solar production and you want to fire up the generator to top off the batteries. They also have a low state of charge mode when SOC reaches 10%, that the Powerwall will turn on during the day for short periods of time just to test to see if the PV system will couple up to charge the battery. This AC-coupling method of reviving the battery may or not work depending on loads and PV sizing / production levels. One limitation to the NMC battery technology is that it doesn't work well particularly in the cold, so offrige Powerwall batteries should be installed in the heated envelope of the home. August On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration from what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that. I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module. To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO it can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs. It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The Gateway acts as the AC point of coupling for everything to tie in together. I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall battery the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would need a way to disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can see how Enphase would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any way. Jason Szumlanski On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III wrote: Greetings, Wrenches, I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology, and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact, this was the best solution. Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power without barfing? What is the lead time on these? Many Thanks, Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Missisquoi River Hydro Renewable Energy Design _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 23471 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jul 22 11:33:25 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 08:33:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: RE: Tracker manual needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave: The trackers appear to work. I am not clear on what direction to orient them. Do you know? William Miller www.millersolar.com > On Jul 22, 2020, at 7:35 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > >  > > > I can get you Jeff at Watsons' number but I was told 10 years ago there is nothing left for that unit. You are going to have to fabricate or modify. The linear motor has had 3 later changes and maybe you could get one to work. If it is the electronics, you are done as that would be component level troubleshooting. That is long gone unless you have the knack? > > Probably best to just set it fixed and add more solar. The manual you got for the az 125 is also not made anymore but the motor is the same as the az 250 (8" pole) and the electronics can be updated to the new controller. > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 22:04:46 -0700, William Miller wrote: > > Dave/Wrenches: > > > > Thanks to Allan for sending me the manual for an AZ125. It is not that model. I will file the manual for the AZ15 anyway as that was missing from my library and there are two of those on this project as well. > > > > I apologize if the photo was not great. I can never remember the file size limitations. Attached is maybe a better photo. Hope it goes through. > > > > This is a single axis tracker without a manual seasonal tilt adjustment. The fixed axis is kind of a square yoke assembly. The fixed axis is level. So I guess this means either this unit is meant for equatorial installation-- or the tracking motion is for tilt tracking only. The control is in two boxes: one with the shade pole and one with the electronics, but no external switches. I've had some long days in the heat lately so maybe I am missing some information needed here. > > > I called the number on the Wattsun website and left a message. Is there a preferred contact anyone out there knows? > > > > Thanks to everyone for trying to help out. When you are alone and stuck the Wrenches is a tremendous resource. > > > > William > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 7:38 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed > > > > Not enough resolution to id. Best guess is pre AZ125 which is long gone. > > Ask Jeff at Wattsun! --Dave > > > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > > text 209 813 0060 > > > > On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 14:46:57 -0700, William Miller > > wrote: > > > Friends: > > > > > > If anyone has a manual for this tracker, I would really be grateful to > > > receive it. Pretty sure it's some form of Wattsun tracker. > > > > > > TIA > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Jul 22 11:27:26 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 09:27:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall Emergency Stop Button In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Has anyone looked at NEC 2020?  Articles 480.7(B) /Storage Batteries/ and 706.15 (A)/Energy Storage Systems/ both require an external emergency disconnect for the batteries. That "may" be what the AHJ is thinking?  Off grid design never got to be so much fun.... Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/22/20 8:40 AM, Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: > Wrenches, > > Does anyone have experience installing an 'Emergency Stop Button' for > Tesla Powerwall or similar energy storage systems? Not a knife-blade > disco but a low-voltage 'plunger' style button that shuts down all > power (even in backup mode) for first responders. > Our AHJ has been forcing us to install gigantic 200A discos between > our ESS and the main service. Tried explaining that these systems are > designed to operate when the power goes out so the disco is next to > useless but... AHJs will be AHJs... > > I've attached a pic to give an idea of what I'm looking for. Hoping to > find a reliable option, with the following characteristics: > *• Must be Lockable on ON/OFF position > • Must have a clear indication of ON/OFF position > • Must be outdoor rated (NEMA 3R or higher) > • Should observe 12V, 0.1 A ratings* > > Thanks > > -- > __ > > Loren Ortiz > Technical PV Design Specialist - Worker Owner/Board Member > > loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com > > *Main:530-274-3671 ext: 311 ****Fax:530-274-7518* > > ** > > > > > > *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Jul 22 12:53:08 2020 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 09:53:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67C6C2EC-BDDA-4AD2-B5FE-2F804D514CE7@starlightsolar.com> William, This type of mount is a polar axis type and should be aligned with the pivot N-S. The actuator can then swing the array E-W. The attached photo is an example of how the mount was used in the C-band antenna days. (1980’s for the young folks) It’s hard to tell but it looks like the elevation bolt is missing that connects the azimuth bar to the pole mount cap. Can you supply a better photo of the mount? Set the elevation angle to latitude for best all year performance. Elevation can also be seasonally adjusted for more gain. There are 3 types of sensors most commonly used in this style of linear actuator. Hall effect, reed switch or a 10 turn potentiometer. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 22, 2020, at 8:33 AM, William Miller wrote: Dave: The trackers appear to work. I am not clear on what direction to orient them. Do you know? William Miller www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2020-07-22 at 9.50.34 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 420637 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jul 22 14:59:40 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 11:59:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - AC Coupling In-Reply-To: <027801d6601a$b634d420$229e7c60$@solartechvt.com> References: <027801d6601a$b634d420$229e7c60$@solartechvt.com> Message-ID: Schneider uses 1.25 max on an XW for Ac coupling. That would be 1.25 x 6 kw or 7.5kw max from the grid inverter when ac coupling. I doubt your numbers would work well with a 5kw internal powerwall. Maybe if you had 2 poweralls? Better get info from Tesla or the installer on Wrenches. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 07:24:48 -0400, rich at solartechvt.com wrote: Considering the lack of public info available for the Powerwall, does anyone have any insight into the AC coupling limits for a single Powerwall? For example, can we AC couple 10kw Solar Edge to a single Powerwall? Thanks Rich FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] ON BEHALF OF Ray SENT: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 8:39 PM TO: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging That's going to be long extension cord for most off grid projects....... Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/21/20 12:11 PM, Matt Partymiller wrote: Jay, The Tesla Gateway has a 12v input terminal for boot up. To startup my off grid Powerwall we wired in a 12V power supply to the input terminals and plugged the other side into a grid-connected outlet. Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Jul 22 15:13:34 2020 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 14:13:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 hardware failures...moving on to another inverter. Message-ID: <088701d6605c$327d0480$97770d80$@solarcentex.com> Time has finally come to move on from SolarEdge. Now replacing the THIRD inverter for one customer alone that has the infamous 181/183 hardware failure error code again. First one replaced in Sept 2019. Second failure and RMA July 6th 2020, and now this third failure on that replacement inverter. We have had 24 total RMAs at quick count and it is eating into our credibility. Solar Edge provided a briefing to me about two months ago acknowledging that their manufacturing quality control issues bordered on a recall, but opted to stay silent and let the installers keep suffering for their materiel and design issues. I was advised that the batch of deficient inverters and their manufacture time frame meant I just needed to get through this summer.perhaps but not another summer ever like this. No more. Au revoir, Solar Edge. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 37150 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jul 22 13:21:22 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 13:21:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - AC Coupling In-Reply-To: <027801d6601a$b634d420$229e7c60$@solartechvt.com> References: <027801d6601a$b634d420$229e7c60$@solartechvt.com> Message-ID: I'm not privy to the specs, but from what I understand the off-grid allowance is less than the grid-interconnected allowance. I'm guessing here, but I assume they would limit the PV inverter output to the AC power rating of the internal inverter which I believe is 5kW. That way the PV output could never be higher than what the Powerwall could handle. Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 11:18 AM wrote: > Considering the lack of public info available for the Powerwall, does > anyone have any insight into the AC coupling limits for a single Powerwall? > > For example, can we AC couple 10kw Solar Edge to a single Powerwall? > > Thanks > > Rich > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Ray > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 21, 2020 8:39 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator > charging > > > > That's going to be long extension cord for most off grid projects....... > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/21/20 12:11 PM, Matt Partymiller wrote: > > Jay, > > > > The Tesla Gateway has a 12v input terminal for boot up. To startup my off > grid Powerwall we wired in a 12V power supply to the input terminals and > plugged the other side into a grid-connected outlet. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at sesre.com Wed Jul 22 14:51:27 2020 From: matt at sesre.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 18:51:27 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - AC Coupling In-Reply-To: <027801d6601a$b634d420$229e7c60$@solartechvt.com> References: <027801d6601a$b634d420$229e7c60$@solartechvt.com> Message-ID: 7.6 kW. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of rich at solartechvt.com Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 7:25 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - AC Coupling Considering the lack of public info available for the Powerwall, does anyone have any insight into the AC coupling limits for a single Powerwall? For example, can we AC couple 10kw Solar Edge to a single Powerwall? Thanks Rich From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 8:39 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging That's going to be long extension cord for most off grid projects....... Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/21/20 12:11 PM, Matt Partymiller wrote: Jay, The Tesla Gateway has a 12v input terminal for boot up. To startup my off grid Powerwall we wired in a 12V power supply to the input terminals and plugged the other side into a grid-connected outlet. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jul 22 15:33:20 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 12:33:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed In-Reply-To: <67C6C2EC-BDDA-4AD2-B5FE-2F804D514CE7@starlightsolar.com> References: <67C6C2EC-BDDA-4AD2-B5FE-2F804D514CE7@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <7332b9e28948a0a76b08440445d763eb@127.0.0.1> Larry is right on this, N-S mount tracking east west. I may have a manual on my office computer. back later. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 09:53:08 -0700, "larry at starlightsolar.com" wrote: William, This type of mount is a polar axis type and should be aligned with the pivot N-S. The actuator can then swing the array E-W. The attached photo is an example of how the mount was used in the C-band antenna days. (1980's for the young folks) It's hard to tell but it looks like the elevation bolt is missing that connects the azimuth bar to the pole mount cap. Can you supply a better photo of the mount? Set the elevation angle to latitude for best all year performance. Elevation can also be seasonally adjusted for more gain. There are 3 types of sensors most commonly used in this style of linear actuator. Hall effect, reed switch or a 10 turn potentiometer. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 22, 2020, at 8:33 AM, William Miller wrote: Dave: The trackers appear to work. I am not clear on what direction to orient them. Do you know? William Miller www.millersolar.com [4] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:william at millersolar.com [4] http://www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2020-07-22 at 9.50.34 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 420637 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Jul 22 15:34:15 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 12:34:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: <027801d6601a$b634d420$229e7c60$@solartechvt.com> Message-ID: Tesla's guidelines are 7.6 kW inverter AC rating. August On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 12:18 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Schneider uses 1.25 max on an XW for Ac coupling. That would be 1.25 x 6 > kw or 7.5kw max from the grid inverter when ac coupling. > > I doubt your numbers would work well with a 5kw internal powerwall. Maybe > if you had 2 poweralls? Better get info from Tesla or the installer on > Wrenches. Good Luck! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 07:24:48 -0400, rich at solartechvt.com wrote: > > Considering the lack of public info available for the Powerwall, does > anyone have any insight into the AC coupling limits for a single Powerwall? > > For example, can we AC couple 10kw Solar Edge to a single Powerwall? > > Thanks > > Rich > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Ray > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 21, 2020 8:39 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator > charging > > > > That's going to be long extension cord for most off grid projects....... > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/21/20 12:11 PM, Matt Partymiller wrote: > > Jay, > > > > The Tesla Gateway has a 12v input terminal for boot up. To startup my off > grid Powerwall we wired in a 12V power supply to the input terminals and > plugged the other side into a grid-connected outlet. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jul 22 17:53:44 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 14:53:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed In-Reply-To: <67C6C2EC-BDDA-4AD2-B5FE-2F804D514CE7@starlightsolar.com> References: <67C6C2EC-BDDA-4AD2-B5FE-2F804D514CE7@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Friends: So far it looks like I have stumped all of you on identifying these trackers. These trackers are trying to work. The electronics and motors are operable. Unlike the diagram below, these trackers do not have an inclined axis to allow the tracking to sweep from east to west with the panels inclined to compensate for latitude and season. The trackers spun around their mounting poles and I simply want to know how to orient the axis so I can put them back to work: A. If I orient the axis N-S the tracker would track east to west with no tilt towards the south. B. If I orient the axis E-W the tracker would alter tilt angle as the day progressed, but never facing other than due south. This all seems strange, but maybe I just don’t have my mind wrapped around the concept as applies to these units. Maybe these mounts were modified in the ancient past when they were installed. The original installer is no longer on this planet so he can’t be asked. I created a web site to post all of the photos so anyone who is curious can look at full sized images. The web site is here . Thanks everyone for trying to help. This is a real head scratcher. William 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *larry at starlightsolar.com *Sent:* Wednesday, July 22, 2020 9:53 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed William, This type of mount is a polar axis type and should be aligned with the pivot N-S. The actuator can then swing the array E-W. The attached photo is an example of how the mount was used in the C-band antenna days. (1980’s for the young folks) It’s hard to tell but it looks like the elevation bolt is missing that connects the azimuth bar to the pole mount cap. Can you supply a better photo of the mount? Set the elevation angle to latitude for best all year performance. Elevation can also be seasonally adjusted for more gain. There are 3 types of sensors most commonly used in this style of linear actuator. Hall effect, reed switch or a 10 turn potentiometer. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 22, 2020, at 8:33 AM, William Miller wrote: Dave: The trackers appear to work. I am not clear on what direction to orient them. Do you know? William Miller www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 119899 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jul 22 18:56:11 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 15:56:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed In-Reply-To: References: <67C6C2EC-BDDA-4AD2-B5FE-2F804D514CE7@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: This unit was a poor tracker in my opinion. Wattsun thought so also. The one thing it did better than an old zomeworks was go back to east at the end of the day. It was on a 4' pole and could not carry 125 square feet ++ of panels like the AZ series. They are 6" and 8" poles. The AZ series is the best I have seen/installed for residential, and still in support. I looked for the info I thought I could find easily. Looks like it is hidden in another file. There is only so much you can do with this unit. Have you compared the harvest both ways? I doubt it is much different. This time of year my AZ 125's turn about 240 degrees with the sun. I wish I could store it all........ Richard (RIP) at Homepower had one like you are asking about, and he did not like it much I remember. Too bad they are out of business. I think one can search their archives?? Maybe someone else will remember the model? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 14:53:44 -0700, William Miller wrote: Friends: So far it looks like I have stumped all of you on identifying these trackers. These trackers are trying to work. The electronics and motors are operable. Unlike the diagram below, these trackers do not have an inclined axis to allow the tracking to sweep from east to west with the panels inclined to compensate for latitude and season. The trackers spun around their mounting poles and I simply want to know how to orient the axis so I can put them back to work: A. If I orient the axis N-S the tracker would track east to west with no tilt towards the south. B. If I orient the axis E-W the tracker would alter tilt angle as the day progressed, but never facing other than due south. This all seems strange, but maybe I just don't have my mind wrapped around the concept as applies to these units. Maybe these mounts were modified in the ancient past when they were installed. The original installer is no longer on this planet so he can't be asked. I created a web site to post all of the photos so anyone who is curious can look at full sized images. The web site is here [3]. Thanks everyone for trying to help. This is a real head scratcher. William 805-438-5600 FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [4]] ON BEHALF OF larry at starlightsolar.com [5] SENT: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 9:53 AM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed William, This type of mount is a polar axis type and should be aligned with the pivot N-S. The actuator can then swing the array E-W. The attached photo is an example of how the mount was used in the C-band antenna days. (1980's for the young folks) It's hard to tell but it looks like the elevation bolt is missing that connects the azimuth bar to the pole mount cap. Can you supply a better photo of the mount? Set the elevation angle to latitude for best all year performance. Elevation can also be seasonally adjusted for more gain. There are 3 types of sensors most commonly used in this style of linear actuator. Hall effect, reed switch or a 10 turn potentiometer. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 22, 2020, at 8:33 AM, William Miller wrote: Dave: The trackers appear to work. I am not clear on what direction to orient them. Do you know? William Miller www.millersolar.com [7] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/26-Mystery_tracker/Mystery_Tracker.html [4] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] mailto:larry at starlightsolar.com [6] mailto:william at millersolar.com [7] http://www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 119899 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Jul 22 20:06:09 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 18:06:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed In-Reply-To: References: <67C6C2EC-BDDA-4AD2-B5FE-2F804D514CE7@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <86239b10-b28d-3d29-896e-befb5fd36f44@solarray.com> I just took a look at your pics, its definitely a really old, modified Wattsun.  You can see the primer paint where they welded the main square tube directly to the cap. You can also see the empty holes in the bracket on the right side of the tube, where the tilt adjuster would have mounted.  It originally should have had a simple fixed N-S tilt adjustment, that was something like a DP&W head.  IT also looks like its missing the pinch bolts that tighten the cap to the pole, but hard to tell.  What are those modules, Old Siemens? I'd just rotate it so the tilt adjust went N-S, and run the motor manually off a 12 v battery to set the seasonal tilt.  Based on the age of the modules, and overall condition of the wiring (non UV rated zip ties, exposed THHN, etc) I wouldn't put a ton of time into it.  I'm rebuilding old Top of Pole racks now with new modules, as the pole mount base and rack are easily worth more than the cost of new modules. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/22/20 3:53 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > So far it looks like I have stumped all of you on identifying these > trackers. > > These trackers are trying to work.  The electronics and motors are > operable.  Unlike the diagram below, these trackers do not have an > inclined axis to allow the tracking to sweep from east to west with > the panels inclined to compensate for latitude and season. > > The trackers spun around their mounting poles and I simply want to > know how to orient the axis so I can put them back to work: > > A.If I orient the axis N-S the tracker would track east to west with > no tilt towards the south. > > B.If I orient the axis E-W the tracker would alter tilt angle as the > day progressed, but never facing other than due south. > > This all seems strange, but maybe I just don’t have my mind wrapped > around the concept as applies to these units.  Maybe these mounts were > modified in the ancient past when they were installed.  The original > installer is no longer on this planet so he can’t be asked. > > I created a web site to post all of the photos so anyone who is > curious can look at full sized images.  The web site is here > . > > Thanks everyone for trying to help.  This is a real head scratcher. > > William > > 805-438-5600 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *larry at starlightsolar.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 22, 2020 9:53 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed > > William, > > This type of mount is a polar axis type and should be aligned with the > pivot N-S. The actuator can then swing the array E-W. The attached > photo is an example of how the mount was used in the C-band antenna > days. (1980’s for the young folks) > > It’s hard to tell but it looks like the elevation bolt is missing that > connects the azimuth bar to the pole mount cap. Can you supply a > better photo of the mount? > > Set the elevation angle to latitude for best all year performance. > Elevation can also be seasonally adjusted for more gain. > > There are 3 types of sensors most commonly used in this style of > linear actuator. Hall effect, reed switch or a 10 turn potentiometer. > > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > On Jul 22, 2020, at 8:33 AM, William Miller > wrote: > > Dave: > > The trackers appear to work. I am not clear on what  direction to > orient them. Do you know? > > William Miller > > www.millersolar.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 119899 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Wed Jul 22 20:27:46 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 20:27:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed In-Reply-To: References: <67C6C2EC-BDDA-4AD2-B5FE-2F804D514CE7@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: William, To me, it looks like someone's bastardization of an old Unirac fixed Top of Pole mount. My best guess is it was designed as a single axis tracker, meant to track the sun's altitude across the day, but have a fixed South facing azimuth. Unless it was closer to the equator, orienting so it tracked East to West wouldn't make much sense, since other than early morning, mid summer, or late afternoon the panels, would be facing far off optimal. Just a guess... Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 6:37 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > So far it looks like I have stumped all of you on identifying these > trackers. > > > > These trackers are trying to work. The electronics and motors are > operable. Unlike the diagram below, these trackers do not have an inclined > axis to allow the tracking to sweep from east to west with the panels > inclined to compensate for latitude and season. > > > > The trackers spun around their mounting poles and I simply want to know > how to orient the axis so I can put them back to work: > > > > A. If I orient the axis N-S the tracker would track east to west with > no tilt towards the south. > > B. If I orient the axis E-W the tracker would alter tilt angle as the > day progressed, but never facing other than due south. > > > > This all seems strange, but maybe I just don’t have my mind wrapped around > the concept as applies to these units. Maybe these mounts were modified in > the ancient past when they were installed. The original installer is no > longer on this planet so he can’t be asked. > > > > I created a web site to post all of the photos so anyone who is curious > can look at full sized images. The web site is here > > . > > > > Thanks everyone for trying to help. This is a real head scratcher. > > > > William > > 805-438-5600 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *larry at starlightsolar.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 22, 2020 9:53 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed > > > > William, > > > > This type of mount is a polar axis type and should be aligned with the > pivot N-S. The actuator can then swing the array E-W. The attached photo is > an example of how the mount was used in the C-band antenna days. (1980’s > for the young folks) > > > > It’s hard to tell but it looks like the elevation bolt is missing that > connects the azimuth bar to the pole mount cap. Can you supply a better > photo of the mount? > > > > Set the elevation angle to latitude for best all year performance. > Elevation can also be seasonally adjusted for more gain. > > > > There are 3 types of sensors most commonly used in this style of linear > actuator. Hall effect, reed switch or a 10 turn potentiometer. > > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > > > On Jul 22, 2020, at 8:33 AM, William Miller > wrote: > > > > Dave: > > > > The trackers appear to work. I am not clear on what direction to orient > them. Do you know? > > William Miller > > www.millersolar.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 119899 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brettbartmasser at gmail.com Wed Jul 22 20:32:22 2020 From: brettbartmasser at gmail.com (Brett Bartmasser) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 17:32:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 hardware failures...moving on to another inverter. In-Reply-To: <088701d6605c$327d0480$97770d80$@solarcentex.com> References: <088701d6605c$327d0480$97770d80$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: We had the exact same experience. Countless failures. We do not use them anymore either, but I sure hope they have fixed their issue. On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 12:18 PM wrote: > Time has finally come to move on from SolarEdge. > > > > Now replacing the THIRD inverter for one customer alone that has the > infamous 181/183 hardware failure error code again. First one replaced in > Sept 2019. Second failure and RMA July 6th 2020, and now this third > failure on that replacement inverter. > > > > We have had 24 total RMAs at quick count and it is eating into our > credibility. > > > > Solar Edge provided a briefing to me about two months ago acknowledging > that their manufacturing quality control issues bordered on a recall, but > opted to stay silent and let the installers keep suffering for their > materiel and design issues. I was advised that the batch of deficient > inverters and their manufacture time frame meant I just needed to get > through this summer…perhaps but not another summer ever like this. > > > > No more. Au revoir, Solar Edge. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 37150 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed Jul 22 20:14:41 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 20:14:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: <027801d6601a$b634d420$229e7c60$@solartechvt.com> Message-ID: Max AC input is 7.6 kW AC for 10 seconds. If you are designing a system to function off-grid you will want to size your AC input at 5kW as this is the continuous max charge. Anything above 5kW for longer than 10 seconds and the Powerwall will throttle back PV via frequency shift. On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 3:50 PM August Goers wrote: > Tesla's guidelines are 7.6 kW inverter AC rating. > > August > > > On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 12:18 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > >> Schneider uses 1.25 max on an XW for Ac coupling. That would be 1.25 x 6 >> kw or 7.5kw max from the grid inverter when ac coupling. >> >> I doubt your numbers would work well with a 5kw internal powerwall. Maybe >> if you had 2 poweralls? Better get info from Tesla or the installer on >> Wrenches. Good Luck! >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 07:24:48 -0400, rich at solartechvt.com wrote: >> >> Considering the lack of public info available for the Powerwall, does >> anyone have any insight into the AC coupling limits for a single Powerwall? >> >> For example, can we AC couple 10kw Solar Edge to a single Powerwall? >> >> Thanks >> >> Rich >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Ray >> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 21, 2020 8:39 PM >> *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator >> charging >> >> >> >> That's going to be long extension cord for most off grid projects....... >> >> Ray Walters >> >> Remote Solar >> >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 7/21/20 12:11 PM, Matt Partymiller wrote: >> >> Jay, >> >> >> >> The Tesla Gateway has a 12v input terminal for boot up. To startup my >> off grid Powerwall we wired in a 12V power supply to the input terminals >> and plugged the other side into a grid-connected outlet. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jul 22 21:15:18 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 18:15:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed In-Reply-To: <86239b10-b28d-3d29-896e-befb5fd36f44@solarray.com> References: <67C6C2EC-BDDA-4AD2-B5FE-2F804D514CE7@starlightsolar.com> <86239b10-b28d-3d29-896e-befb5fd36f44@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray and other Wrenches: I agree on all counts: 1. This is a field mod. 2. Not worth any effort (the arrays are temporary until a barn is built to hold the real solar). 3. Manually point it south-ish and forget it. 4. Tracking arrays should be replaced with fixed arrays. I was mostly just curious… and wanting to make sure I had not yet lost my mind out in the sun. Thanks everyone. William *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ray *Sent:* Wednesday, July 22, 2020 5:06 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed I just took a look at your pics, its definitely a really old, modified Wattsun. You can see the primer paint where they welded the main square tube directly to the cap. You can also see the empty holes in the bracket on the right side of the tube, where the tilt adjuster would have mounted. It originally should have had a simple fixed N-S tilt adjustment, that was something like a DP&W head. IT also looks like its missing the pinch bolts that tighten the cap to the pole, but hard to tell. What are those modules, Old Siemens? I'd just rotate it so the tilt adjust went N-S, and run the motor manually off a 12 v battery to set the seasonal tilt. Based on the age of the modules, and overall condition of the wiring (non UV rated zip ties, exposed THHN, etc) I wouldn't put a ton of time into it. I'm rebuilding old Top of Pole racks now with new modules, as the pole mount base and rack are easily worth more than the cost of new modules. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/22/20 3:53 PM, William Miller wrote: Friends: So far it looks like I have stumped all of you on identifying these trackers. These trackers are trying to work. The electronics and motors are operable. Unlike the diagram below, these trackers do not have an inclined axis to allow the tracking to sweep from east to west with the panels inclined to compensate for latitude and season. The trackers spun around their mounting poles and I simply want to know how to orient the axis so I can put them back to work: A. If I orient the axis N-S the tracker would track east to west with no tilt towards the south. B. If I orient the axis E-W the tracker would alter tilt angle as the day progressed, but never facing other than due south. This all seems strange, but maybe I just don’t have my mind wrapped around the concept as applies to these units. Maybe these mounts were modified in the ancient past when they were installed. The original installer is no longer on this planet so he can’t be asked. I created a web site to post all of the photos so anyone who is curious can look at full sized images. The web site is here . Thanks everyone for trying to help. This is a real head scratcher. William 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *larry at starlightsolar.com *Sent:* Wednesday, July 22, 2020 9:53 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed William, This type of mount is a polar axis type and should be aligned with the pivot N-S. The actuator can then swing the array E-W. The attached photo is an example of how the mount was used in the C-band antenna days. (1980’s for the young folks) It’s hard to tell but it looks like the elevation bolt is missing that connects the azimuth bar to the pole mount cap. Can you supply a better photo of the mount? Set the elevation angle to latitude for best all year performance. Elevation can also be seasonally adjusted for more gain. There are 3 types of sensors most commonly used in this style of linear actuator. Hall effect, reed switch or a 10 turn potentiometer. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 22, 2020, at 8:33 AM, William Miller wrote: Dave: The trackers appear to work. I am not clear on what direction to orient them. Do you know? William Miller www.millersolar.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 119899 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 10:47:31 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 07:47:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 hardware failures...moving on to another inverter. In-Reply-To: <088701d6605c$327d0480$97770d80$@solarcentex.com> References: <088701d6605c$327d0480$97770d80$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Hi Scot and others I’ve heard these horror stories about SE What is the best replacement for SE at this point? Thanks Jay > On Jul 23, 2020, at 5:57 AM, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: > >  > Time has finally come to move on from SolarEdge. > > Now replacing the THIRD inverter for one customer alone that has the infamous 181/183 hardware failure error code again. First one replaced in Sept 2019. Second failure and RMA July 6th 2020, and now this third failure on that replacement inverter. > > We have had 24 total RMAs at quick count and it is eating into our credibility. > > Solar Edge provided a briefing to me about two months ago acknowledging that their manufacturing quality control issues bordered on a recall, but opted to stay silent and let the installers keep suffering for their materiel and design issues. I was advised that the batch of deficient inverters and their manufacture time frame meant I just needed to get through this summer…perhaps but not another summer ever like this. > > No more. Au revoir, Solar Edge. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 11:21:46 2020 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (MiJo Nels) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 15:21:46 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 hardware failures...moving on to another inverter. In-Reply-To: References: <088701d6605c$327d0480$97770d80$@solarcentex.com>, Message-ID: We also, have found this to be the case. Now I feel like I'm in a bad marriage with them. We consistantly wait longer than we are told for replacement product, constantly hearing the same repetitious verbiage from them "just wait a little longer, we'll be able to control your coffee maker with your inverter soon".. or the old "Q1 Q2 Q3" promises for equipment or to get thru beta testing.. .. I too. . . am "Done". . . Joe Nelson Project Manager C-46/C-10 Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation CSL# 868816 www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com 530-273-4422 (Office) 530-217-8385 (Cell)      ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jay Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 7:47:31 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 hardware failures...moving on to another inverter. Hi Scot and others I’ve heard these horror stories about SE What is the best replacement for SE at this point? Thanks Jay On Jul 23, 2020, at 5:57 AM, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote:  Time has finally come to move on from SolarEdge. Now replacing the THIRD inverter for one customer alone that has the infamous 181/183 hardware failure error code again. First one replaced in Sept 2019. Second failure and RMA July 6th 2020, and now this third failure on that replacement inverter. We have had 24 total RMAs at quick count and it is eating into our credibility. Solar Edge provided a briefing to me about two months ago acknowledging that their manufacturing quality control issues bordered on a recall, but opted to stay silent and let the installers keep suffering for their materiel and design issues. I was advised that the batch of deficient inverters and their manufacture time frame meant I just needed to get through this summer…perhaps but not another summer ever like this. No more. Au revoir, Solar Edge. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Thu Jul 23 11:03:49 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 11:03:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 hardware failures...moving on to another inverter. In-Reply-To: References: <088701d6605c$327d0480$97770d80$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: I have over 100 SE inverters in the field over the last 7 years and the failure rate is minimal. And NO 181/183 errors. I am just lucky??? I could trash SE on other subjects, but that's not the subject of this thread. On 7/22/2020 8:32:39 PM, Brett Bartmasser wrote: We had the exact same experience. Countless failures. We do not use them anymore either, but I sure hope they have fixed their issue. On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 12:18 PM wrote: Time has finally come to move on from SolarEdge. Now replacing the THIRD inverter for one customer alone that has the infamous 181/183 hardware failure error code again. First one replaced in Sept 2019. Second failure and RMA July 6th 2020, and now this third failure on that replacement inverter. We have had 24 total RMAs at quick count and it is eating into our credibility. Solar Edge provided a briefing to me about two months ago acknowledging that their manufacturing quality control issues bordered on a recall, but opted to stay silent and let the installers keep suffering for their materiel and design issues. I was advised that the batch of deficient inverters and their manufacture time frame meant I just needed to get through this summer…perhaps but not another summer ever like this. No more. Au revoir, Solar Edge. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 37150 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Jul 23 12:27:33 2020 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 10:27:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC direct pond aeration replacement Message-ID: <015b01d6610e$2c1e54b0$845afe10$@solarwork.com> Hey All! I have a client with an old 1/16hp-12 volt GAST dc direct aeration pump/compressor. GAST no longer makes this 12 volt unit. Any suggestions for a reliable replacement? GAST does make higher voltage models I have heard but this would require replacing everything: the linear current booster, new pv modules, as well as the compressor. If you are a supplier please contact me directly. Thanks in advance. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jul 23 12:14:50 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 09:14:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FW: Tracker manual needed In-Reply-To: <00ff01d660f8$ae713920$0b53ab60$@wattsun.com> References: <67C6C2EC-BDDA-4AD2-B5FE-2F804D514CE7@starlightsolar.com> <86239b10-b28d-3d29-896e-befb5fd36f44@solarray.com> <00ff01d660f8$ae713920$0b53ab60$@wattsun.com> Message-ID: <604772f2dc7d31d2961ef90a96ae6711@mail.gmail.com> Friends: Kyle was very quick to help with information on this intriguing but ultimately inconsequential issue. Below is his response. William *From:* Kyle Greulich [mailto:kyle at wattsun.com] *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2020 6:54 AM *To:* william at millersolar.com; 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* RE: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed Hi William and others, I think this is some sort of modified TR55 (tilt and roll) Wattsun tracker, but the way it’s modified doesn’t really make sense to me. Without that tilt adjustment it isn’t really oriented in a productive way, especially with the way the controllers are designed to work. To me, the only messing with it worth doing would be to get the tilt oriented in a southerly direction, without that it just isn’t going to work well. Add to the fact that the panels can’t be doing too much, so unless you are going all in, it doesn’t make sense to really dive into the tracker. I attached the old guide for the TR55 tracker. If you guys have any other tracker questions always feel free to send them my way. It seems as though many of you have some negative feelings toward trackers, and I certainly understand that especially when it comes to early tracker tech. But, if you ever want to discuss any of our current tech I would love to have the conversation. Thank you Kyle *Kyle Greulich* – Wattsun Solar Trackers *t* +1.973.647.7751 *e* kyle at wattsun.com *From:* William Miller [mailto:william at millersolar.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, July 22, 2020 9:15 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* RE: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed Ray and other Wrenches: I agree on all counts: 1. This is a field mod. 2. Not worth any effort (the arrays are temporary until a barn is built to hold the real solar). 3. Manually point it south-ish and forget it. 4. Tracking arrays should be replaced with fixed arrays. I was mostly just curious… and wanting to make sure I had not yet lost my mind out in the sun. Thanks everyone. William *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ray *Sent:* Wednesday, July 22, 2020 5:06 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed I just took a look at your pics, its definitely a really old, modified Wattsun. You can see the primer paint where they welded the main square tube directly to the cap. You can also see the empty holes in the bracket on the right side of the tube, where the tilt adjuster would have mounted. It originally should have had a simple fixed N-S tilt adjustment, that was something like a DP&W head. IT also looks like its missing the pinch bolts that tighten the cap to the pole, but hard to tell. What are those modules, Old Siemens? I'd just rotate it so the tilt adjust went N-S, and run the motor manually off a 12 v battery to set the seasonal tilt. Based on the age of the modules, and overall condition of the wiring (non UV rated zip ties, exposed THHN, etc) I wouldn't put a ton of time into it. I'm rebuilding old Top of Pole racks now with new modules, as the pole mount base and rack are easily worth more than the cost of new modules. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/22/20 3:53 PM, William Miller wrote: Friends: So far it looks like I have stumped all of you on identifying these trackers. These trackers are trying to work. The electronics and motors are operable. Unlike the diagram below, these trackers do not have an inclined axis to allow the tracking to sweep from east to west with the panels inclined to compensate for latitude and season. The trackers spun around their mounting poles and I simply want to know how to orient the axis so I can put them back to work: A. If I orient the axis N-S the tracker would track east to west with no tilt towards the south. B. If I orient the axis E-W the tracker would alter tilt angle as the day progressed, but never facing other than due south. This all seems strange, but maybe I just don’t have my mind wrapped around the concept as applies to these units. Maybe these mounts were modified in the ancient past when they were installed. The original installer is no longer on this planet so he can’t be asked. I created a web site to post all of the photos so anyone who is curious can look at full sized images. The web site is here . Thanks everyone for trying to help. This is a real head scratcher. William 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *larry at starlightsolar.com *Sent:* Wednesday, July 22, 2020 9:53 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed William, This type of mount is a polar axis type and should be aligned with the pivot N-S. The actuator can then swing the array E-W. The attached photo is an example of how the mount was used in the C-band antenna days. (1980’s for the young folks) It’s hard to tell but it looks like the elevation bolt is missing that connects the azimuth bar to the pole mount cap. Can you supply a better photo of the mount? Set the elevation angle to latitude for best all year performance. Elevation can also be seasonally adjusted for more gain. There are 3 types of sensors most commonly used in this style of linear actuator. Hall effect, reed switch or a 10 turn potentiometer. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 22, 2020, at 8:33 AM, William Miller wrote: Dave: The trackers appear to work. I am not clear on what direction to orient them. Do you know? William Miller www.millersolar.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 119899 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Wattsun_TR-55_Installation_Guide.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1293397 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 12:40:58 2020 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 10:40:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Third-party PV energy monitoring? Message-ID: Esteemed Wrenches; I have a strange situation and I'm wondering if any of you have run into it before. The PV system is ~10 years old, and was recently removed and reinstalled for a new roof. The original installer went out of business, and there are NO electrical plans or installer notes. I'm currently trying to procure the plan set from the county building department. The system consists of a PV-Powered string inverter for most of the array, and a few PV modules with Enphase microinverters on a roof plane with shading issues. I can only assume this was done because the string inverter could not accept multiple MPPT input channels. Though the PV-Powered string inverter can be installed with an Ethernet monitoring card option, that was not done. There is also no Enphase Envoy. Instead the installer used a WattNode Modbus logger with CTs, which are placed right at the utility interconnect to monitor BOTH the string inverter and the microinverters. I assume they did this so as to not have 2 separate monitors. But, with no installer notes......we have no idea what web service was used for this monitoring. When the client purchased the house, no notes, web addresses, logins, passwords etc. were provided. The Wattnode logger (picture) seems to be working....what 3rd-party monitoring services do other Wrenches use that might work with this logger? Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Jul 23 13:05:32 2020 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 10:05:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed In-Reply-To: <604772f2dc7d31d2961ef90a96ae6711@mail.gmail.com> References: <67C6C2EC-BDDA-4AD2-B5FE-2F804D514CE7@starlightsolar.com> <86239b10-b28d-3d29-896e-befb5fd36f44@solarray.com> <00ff01d660f8$ae713920$0b53ab60$@wattsun.com> <604772f2dc7d31d2961ef90a96ae6711@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <700F9014-935C-46D3-A91A-DC37EC645F4C@starlightsolar.com> William, Thank you for the larger pictures.The mount is a DIY unit converted from a polar axis mount that was originally made for a C band satellite antenna. The elevation adjustment mounting hole can be clearly seen. A pole cap has been fabricated and welded to the axis bar making it non adjustable for elevation. You can tell this because there is no mounting hole for the elevation adjustment on the cap. Your best performance gain would be to orient N-S and let the actuator track E-W during the day. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 7/22/20 3:53 PM, William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > So far it looks like I have stumped all of you on identifying these trackers. > > These trackers are trying to work. The electronics and motors are operable. Unlike the diagram below, these trackers do not have an inclined axis to allow the tracking to sweep from east to west with the panels inclined to compensate for latitude and season. > > The trackers spun around their mounting poles and I simply want to know how to orient the axis so I can put them back to work: > > A. If I orient the axis N-S the tracker would track east to west with no tilt towards the south. > B. If I orient the axis E-W the tracker would alter tilt angle as the day progressed, but never facing other than due south. > > This all seems strange, but maybe I just don’t have my mind wrapped around the concept as applies to these units. Maybe these mounts were modified in the ancient past when they were installed. The original installer is no longer on this planet so he can’t be asked. > > I created a web site to post all of the photos so anyone who is curious can look at full sized images. The web site is here . > > Thanks everyone for trying to help. This is a real head scratcher. > > William > 805-438-5600 > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of larry at starlightsolar.com > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 9:53 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed > > William, > > This type of mount is a polar axis type and should be aligned with the pivot N-S. The actuator can then swing the array E-W. The attached photo is an example of how the mount was used in the C-band antenna days. (1980’s for the young folks) > > It’s hard to tell but it looks like the elevation bolt is missing that connects the azimuth bar to the pole mount cap. Can you supply a better photo of the mount? > > Set the elevation angle to latitude for best all year performance. Elevation can also be seasonally adjusted for more gain. > > There are 3 types of sensors most commonly used in this style of linear actuator. Hall effect, reed switch or a 10 turn potentiometer. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Jul 22, 2020, at 8:33 AM, William Miller > wrote: > > Dave: > > The trackers appear to work. I am not clear on what direction to orient them. Do you know? > > William Miller > www.millersolar.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jul 23 13:24:10 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 10:24:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FW: Tracker manual needed In-Reply-To: <604772f2dc7d31d2961ef90a96ae6711@mail.gmail.com> References: <67C6C2EC-BDDA-4AD2-B5FE-2F804D514CE7@starlightsolar.com> <86239b10-b28d-3d29-896e-befb5fd36f44@solarray.com> <00ff01d660f8$ae713920$0b53ab60$@wattsun.com> <604772f2dc7d31d2961ef90a96ae6711@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Kyle's dad Jeff is a wealth of knowledge also. The Wattsun HZLA tracker is the easiest way to install 5KW without a ladder. Gives you a dawn to dusk source of power with a 25% gain over fixed. If you need that for cooling or long days of pumping water, it is a good value over virtual tracking. So it was a TR. RIP pointing south Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 23 Jul 2020 09:14:50 -0700, William Miller wrote: Friends: Kyle was very quick to help with information on this intriguing but ultimately inconsequential issue. Below is his response. William FROM: Kyle Greulich [mailto:kyle at wattsun.com [3]] SENT: Thursday, July 23, 2020 6:54 AM TO: william at millersolar.com [4]; 'RE-wrenches' SUBJECT: RE: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed Hi William and others, I think this is some sort of modified TR55 (tilt and roll) Wattsun tracker, but the way it's modified doesn't really make sense to me. Without that tilt adjustment it isn't really oriented in a productive way, especially with the way the controllers are designed to work. To me, the only messing with it worth doing would be to get the tilt oriented in a southerly direction, without that it just isn't going to work well. Add to the fact that the panels can't be doing too much, so unless you are going all in, it doesn't make sense to really dive into the tracker. I attached the old guide for the TR55 tracker. If you guys have any other tracker questions always feel free to send them my way. It seems as though many of you have some negative feelings toward trackers, and I certainly understand that especially when it comes to early tracker tech. But, if you ever want to discuss any of our current tech I would love to have the conversation. Thank you Kyle KYLE GREULICH - Wattsun Solar Trackers T +1.973.647.7751 E kyle at wattsun.com [5] FROM: William Miller [mailto:william at millersolar.com [6]] SENT: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 9:15 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: RE: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed Ray and other Wrenches: I agree on all counts: 1. This is a field mod. 2. Not worth any effort (the arrays are temporary until a barn is built to hold the real solar). 3. Manually point it south-ish and forget it. 4. Tracking arrays should be replaced with fixed arrays. I was mostly just curious... and wanting to make sure I had not yet lost my mind out in the sun. Thanks everyone. William FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [8]] ON BEHALF OF Ray SENT: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 5:06 PM TO: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed I just took a look at your pics, its definitely a really old, modified Wattsun. You can see the primer paint where they welded the main square tube directly to the cap. You can also see the empty holes in the bracket on the right side of the tube, where the tilt adjuster would have mounted. It originally should have had a simple fixed N-S tilt adjustment, that was something like a DP margin-bottom: 5.0pt;"> Friends: So far it looks like I have stumped all of you on identifying these trackers. These trackers are trying to work. The electronics and motors are operable. Unlike the diagram below, these trackers do not have an inclined axis to allow the tracking to sweep from east to west with the panels inclined to compensate for latitude and season. The trackers spun around their mounting poles and I simply want to know how to orient the axis so I can put them back to work: A. If I orient the axis N-S the tracker would track east to west with no tilt towards the south. B. If I orient the axis E-W the tracker would alter tilt angle as the day progressed, but never facing other than due south. This all seems strange, but maybe I just don't have my mind wrapped around the concept as applies to these units. Maybe these mounts were modified in the ancient past when they were installed. The original installer is no longer on this planet so he can't be asked. I created a web site to post all of the photos so anyone who is curious can look at full sized images. The web site is here [10]. Thanks everyone for trying to help. This is a real head scratcher. William 805-438-5600 FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [11]] ON BEHALF OF larry at starlightsolar.com [12] SENT: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 9:53 AM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed William, This type of mount is a polar axis type and should be aligned with the pivot N-S. The actuator can then swing the array E-W. The attached photo is an example of how the mount was used in the C-band antenna days. (1980's for the young folks) It's hard to tell but it looks like the elevation bolt is missing that connects the azimuth bar to the pole mount cap. Can you supply a better photo of the mount? Set the elevation angle to latitude for best all year performance. Elevation can also be seasonally adjusted for more gain. There are 3 types of sensors most commonly used in this style of linear actuator. Hall effect, reed switch or a 10 turn potentiometer. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 22, 2020, at 8:33 AM, William Miller wrote: Dave: The trackers appear to work. I am not clear on what direction to orient them. Do you know? William Miller www.millersolar.com [14] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [18] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [19] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:kyle at wattsun.com [4] mailto:william at millersolar.com [5] mailto:kyle at wattsun.com [6] mailto:william at millersolar.com [7] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/26-Mystery_tracker/Mystery_Tracker.html [11] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] mailto:larry at starlightsolar.com [13] mailto:william at millersolar.com [14] http://www.millersolar.com [15] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [19] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-smile.gif Type: image/gif Size: 344 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 119899 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Jul 23 14:28:44 2020 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 12:28:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 32% gain tracked VS. fixed my .02 Message-ID: <01a901d6611f$1a3faf30$4ebf0d90$@solarwork.com> I have shared this before I set [6] 250 watt PV on a fixed roof at latitude & same module [6] 250 watt on a Wattsun dual axis tracker and for 2 years compared. Almost a perfect 32% gain on tracked vs. fixed. I live in a long N-S canyon in central Idaho high ridge to the east & to the west, & my [2] x 3200 watts of dual axis Wattsun have me full by noon most winter days depending on the previous days weather. Right now its 10 AM full. I am making electric DHW with the excess. :-]] Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 11:24 AM To: william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FW: Tracker manual needed Kyle's dad Jeff is a wealth of knowledge also. The Wattsun HZLA tracker is the easiest way to install 5KW without a ladder. Gives you a dawn to dusk source of power with a 25% gain over fixed. If you need that for cooling or long days of pumping water, it is a good value over virtual tracking. So it was a TR. RIP pointing south Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 23 Jul 2020 09:14:50 -0700, William Miller > wrote: Friends: Kyle was very quick to help with information on this intriguing but ultimately inconsequential issue. Below is his response. William From: Kyle Greulich [mailto:kyle at wattsun.com ] Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 6:54 AM To: william at millersolar.com ; 'RE-wrenches' Subject: RE: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed Hi William and others, I think this is some sort of modified TR55 (tilt and roll) Wattsun tracker, but the way it's modified doesn't really make sense to me. Without that tilt adjustment it isn't really oriented in a productive way, especially with the way the controllers are designed to work. To me, the only messing with it worth doing would be to get the tilt oriented in a southerly direction, without that it just isn't going to work well. Add to the fact that the panels can't be doing too much, so unless you are going all in, it doesn't make sense to really dive into the tracker. I attached the old guide for the TR55 tracker. If you guys have any other tracker questions always feel free to send them my way. It seems as though many of you have some negative feelings toward trackers, and I certainly understand that especially when it comes to early tracker tech. But, if you ever want to discuss any of our current tech I would love to have the conversation. Thank you Kyle Kyle Greulich – Wattsun Solar Trackers t +1.973.647.7751 e kyle at wattsun.com From: William Miller [mailto:william at millersolar.com ] Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 9:15 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: RE: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed Ray and other Wrenches: I agree on all counts: 1. This is a field mod. 2. Not worth any effort (the arrays are temporary until a barn is built to hold the real solar). 3. Manually point it south-ish and forget it. 4. Tracking arrays should be replaced with fixed arrays. I was mostly just curious... and wanting to make sure I had not yet lost my mind out in the sun. Thanks everyone. William From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 5:06 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed I just took a look at your pics, its definitely a really old, modified Wattsun. You can see the primer paint where they welded the main square tube directly to the cap. You can also see the empty holes in the bracket on the right side of the tube, where the tilt adjuster would have mounted. It originally should have had a simple fixed N-S tilt adjustment, that was something like a DP&W head. IT also looks like its missing the pinch bolts that tighten the cap to the pole, but hard to tell. What are those modules, Old Siemens? I'd just rotate it so the tilt adjust went N-S, and run the motor manually off a 12 v battery to set the seasonal tilt. Based on the age of the modules, and overall condition of the wiring (non UV rated zip ties, exposed THHN, etc) I wouldn't put a ton of time into it. I'm rebuilding old Top of Pole racks now with new modules, as the pole mount base and rack are easily worth more than the cost of new modules. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/22/20 3:53 PM, William Miller wrote: Friends: So far it looks like I have stumped all of you on identifying these trackers. These trackers are trying to work. The electronics and motors are operable. Unlike the diagram below, these trackers do not have an inclined axis to allow the tracking to sweep from east to west with the panels inclined to compensate for latitude and season. The trackers spun around their mounting poles and I simply want to know how to orient the axis so I can put them back to work: A. If I orient the axis N-S the tracker would track east to west with no tilt towards the south. B. If I orient the axis E-W the tracker would alter tilt angle as the day progressed, but never facing other than due south. This all seems strange, but maybe I just don't have my mind wrapped around the concept as applies to these units. Maybe these mounts were modified in the ancient past when they were installed. The original installer is no longer on this planet so he can't be asked. I created a web site to post all of the photos so anyone who is curious can look at full sized images. The web site is here . Thanks everyone for trying to help. This is a real head scratcher. William 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of larry at starlightsolar.com Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 9:53 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed William, This type of mount is a polar axis type and should be aligned with the pivot N-S. The actuator can then swing the array E-W. The attached photo is an example of how the mount was used in the C-band antenna days. (1980's for the young folks) It's hard to tell but it looks like the elevation bolt is missing that connects the azimuth bar to the pole mount cap. Can you supply a better photo of the mount? Set the elevation angle to latitude for best all year performance. Elevation can also be seasonally adjusted for more gain. There are 3 types of sensors most commonly used in this style of linear actuator. Hall effect, reed switch or a 10 turn potentiometer. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 22, 2020, at 8:33 AM, William Miller > wrote: Dave: The trackers appear to work. I am not clear on what direction to orient them. Do you know? William Miller www.millersolar.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 344 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 119899 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Thu Jul 23 15:24:20 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 15:24:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC HV battery combiner source Message-ID: Hey folks, I am looking to source a DC battery combiner for a 1Mwh Blue Planet (Ion) system. That's -16- 64kwh cabinets. I am aware of SolarBOS and Innovative Solar Inc.. Any other OEMs someone could point me to? Thanks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mark at hurshtown.com Thu Jul 23 16:07:02 2020 From: mark at hurshtown.com (mark at hurshtown.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 13:07:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC direct pond aeration replacement Message-ID: <20200723130701.42d1196bae6553eb9b5e527e5e65c85c.9afd7afd1c.wbe@email16.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 17:06:40 2020 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 17:06:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 hardware failures...moving on to another inverter. In-Reply-To: References: <088701d6605c$327d0480$97770d80$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: interested to know if folks are having issues with specific models or it's all across the board? if it's all across the board, i (like jay) would be interested to know what people are moving on towards. especially for smaller commercial 3phase projects. adam On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 11:57 AM MiJo Nels wrote: > We also, have found this to be the case. Now I feel like I'm in a bad > marriage with them. We consistantly wait longer than we are told for > replacement product, constantly hearing the same repetitious verbiage from > them "just wait a little longer, we'll be able to control your coffee maker > with your inverter soon".. or the old "Q1 Q2 Q3" promises for equipment or > to get thru beta testing.. .. I too. . . am "Done". . . > > Joe Nelson > > Project Manager C-46/C-10 > Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation > > CSL# 868816 > www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com > 530-273-4422 (Office) > > 530-217-8385 (Cell) > >  > >     > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Jay > *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2020 7:47:31 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 > hardware failures...moving on to another inverter. > > Hi Scot and others > > I’ve heard these horror stories about SE > > What is the best replacement for SE at this point? > > Thanks > > Jay > > > > > > On Jul 23, 2020, at 5:57 AM, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: > >  > > Time has finally come to move on from SolarEdge. > > > > Now replacing the THIRD inverter for one customer alone that has the > infamous 181/183 hardware failure error code again. First one replaced in > Sept 2019. Second failure and RMA July 6th 2020, and now this third > failure on that replacement inverter. > > > > We have had 24 total RMAs at quick count and it is eating into our > credibility. > > > > Solar Edge provided a briefing to me about two months ago acknowledging > that their manufacturing quality control issues bordered on a recall, but > opted to stay silent and let the installers keep suffering for their > materiel and design issues. I was advised that the batch of deficient > inverters and their manufacture time frame meant I just needed to get > through this summer…perhaps but not another summer ever like this. > > > > No more. Au revoir, Solar Edge. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Thu Jul 23 16:54:39 2020 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 14:54:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC direct pond aeration replacement In-Reply-To: <20200723130701.42d1196bae6553eb9b5e527e5e65c85c.9afd7afd1c.wbe@email16.godaddy.com> References: <20200723130701.42d1196bae6553eb9b5e527e5e65c85c.9afd7afd1c.wbe@email16.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <030701d66133$7bf68c30$73e3a490$@OasisMontana.com> Check out these folks: https://www.keetonaquatics.com/home Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of mark at hurshtown.com Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 2:07 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC direct pond aeration replacement I too need a source for 12V compressors to be used for pond aeration. I also would greatly appreciate any leads on a source. Thanks, Mark Downing Hurshtown Alt. Power -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC direct pond aeration replacement From: "Dana Orzel" > Date: Thu, July 23, 2020 12:27 pm To: "'RE-wrenches'" > Hey All! I have a client with an old 1/16hp-12 volt GAST dc direct aeration pump/compressor. GAST no longer makes this 12 volt unit. Any suggestions for a reliable replacement? GAST does make higher voltage models I have heard but this would require replacing everything: the linear current booster, new pv modules, as well as the compressor. If you are a supplier please contact me directly. Thanks in advance. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com Thu Jul 23 17:46:57 2020 From: rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com (Rick Brown) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 17:46:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas Message-ID: Wrenches, Dilemma #1: I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set weighs in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The originals were placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going up. Dilemma #2: The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. Thanks, rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 45800 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jul 23 18:22:25 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 18:22:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chain hoist and muscle for the move. It's not easy. It can be hard to get them out of the steel case. Slow and careful... I haven't done this a lot, but the few times it was a dicey proposition. Jason Szumlanski On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:47 PM Rick Brown < rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com> wrote: > Wrenches, > > Dilemma #1: > > I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set > weighs in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The > originals were placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going > up. > > > > Dilemma #2: > > The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback > FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging > parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the > batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I > missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. > > Thanks, > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com > > Check, Virginia 24072 > 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 45800 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 18:27:32 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 18:27:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dilemma #2 On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 6:22 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Chain hoist and muscle for the move. It's not easy. It can be hard to get > them out of the steel case. Slow and careful... I haven't done this a lot, > but the few times it was a dicey proposition. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:47 PM Rick Brown < > rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com> wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> Dilemma #1: >> >> I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set >> weighs in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The >> originals were placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going >> up. >> >> >> >> Dilemma #2: >> >> The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback >> FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging >> parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the >> batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I >> missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. >> >> Thanks, >> >> rick brown >> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >> >> Check, Virginia 24072 >> 540.808.9502 >> >> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 45800 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_1642.jpg Type: image/jpg Size: 213922 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jul 23 18:30:11 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 18:30:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 hardware failures...moving on to another inverter. In-Reply-To: References: <088701d6605c$327d0480$97770d80$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Not to sounds like a Fanboy, but Enphase in a small commercial setting is a real option. Owners love the monitoring aspect, the serviceability, the warranty, etc. There is a good safety argument to be made. Replacing micros on a flat roof is usually a cakewalk if necessary. Dealing with roof-mounted equipment shading issues makes micros a good option if optimizers are off the table. I'm adding an 80kW Enphase IQ array to an existing M-series 70kW system very soon. Here's Phase 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvXyGiUlALw This one is 208Y/120. For 480V you're looking at a transformer, which changes the calculus. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:06 PM AE Solar wrote: > interested to know if folks are having issues with specific models or it's > all across the board? if it's all across the board, i (like jay) would be > interested to know what people are moving on towards. especially for > smaller commercial 3phase projects. > adam > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 11:57 AM MiJo Nels > wrote: > >> We also, have found this to be the case. Now I feel like I'm in a bad >> marriage with them. We consistantly wait longer than we are told for >> replacement product, constantly hearing the same repetitious verbiage from >> them "just wait a little longer, we'll be able to control your coffee maker >> with your inverter soon".. or the old "Q1 Q2 Q3" promises for equipment or >> to get thru beta testing.. .. I too. . . am "Done". . . >> >> Joe Nelson >> >> Project Manager C-46/C-10 >> Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation >> >> CSL# 868816 >> www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com >> >> 530-273-4422 (Office) >> >> 530-217-8385 (Cell) >> >>  >> >>     >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Jay >> *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2020 7:47:31 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 >> hardware failures...moving on to another inverter. >> >> Hi Scot and others >> >> I’ve heard these horror stories about SE >> >> What is the best replacement for SE at this point? >> >> Thanks >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jul 23, 2020, at 5:57 AM, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: >> >>  >> >> Time has finally come to move on from SolarEdge. >> >> >> >> Now replacing the THIRD inverter for one customer alone that has the >> infamous 181/183 hardware failure error code again. First one replaced in >> Sept 2019. Second failure and RMA July 6th 2020, and now this third >> failure on that replacement inverter. >> >> >> >> We have had 24 total RMAs at quick count and it is eating into our >> credibility. >> >> >> >> Solar Edge provided a briefing to me about two months ago acknowledging >> that their manufacturing quality control issues bordered on a recall, but >> opted to stay silent and let the installers keep suffering for their >> materiel and design issues. I was advised that the batch of deficient >> inverters and their manufacture time frame meant I just needed to get >> through this summer…perhaps but not another summer ever like this. >> >> >> >> No more. Au revoir, Solar Edge. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Jul 23 19:03:13 2020 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 17:03:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15645927-9915-404A-993A-8EF81628D6E5@sindelarsolar.com> Rick: 1) consider renting or buying an engine hoist to pull out the individual cells, and lowering each onto a hand truck for transport to your truck. I have done this several times - it’s actually not that difficult with a crew of two or three. Northwest Energy Storage (www.solarone com, I think) supplies a short, heavy nylon strap with clevises at each end for raising and lowering each cell. You might contact them to purchase one. At one remote site, the client suggested that I buy a cheap engine hoist from Harbor Freight, as it would be cheaper than renting a professional one. 2) the older Trace SW series is early technology in regards to its sell efficiency, because of the lack of what was dubbed ‘silent sell’. The general number from when it was about the only game in town was about 55%. I would suggest upgrading to a modern unit if it’s primarily used for selling back. Allan Sindelar, Sindelar Solar > On Jul 23, 2020, at 3:47 PM, Rick Brown wrote: > > Wrenches, > > Dilemma #1: > > I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set weighs in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The originals were placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going up. > > > > > Dilemma #2: > > The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. > > Thanks, > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Jul 23 19:12:23 2020 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 19:12:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001a01d66146$bb238300$316a8900$@glbcc.com> I have also seen automotive engine hoists reversed and with ballast, used to grunt very heavy batteries. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 6:22 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas Chain hoist and muscle for the move. It's not easy. It can be hard to get them out of the steel case. Slow and careful... I haven't done this a lot, but the few times it was a dicey proposition. Jason Szumlanski On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:47 PM Rick Brown > wrote: Wrenches, Dilemma #1: I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set weighs in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The originals were placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going up. Dilemma #2: The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. Thanks, rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 45800 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Thu Jul 23 18:55:15 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 18:55:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 hardware failures...moving on to another inverter. In-Reply-To: References: <088701d6605c$327d0480$97770d80$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: I gave up on Enphase a long time ago for the same reasons many of you are dumping on SE now. High replacement rate etc. Any of you in this biz longer than ten years knows how horrible the first several generations of Enphase was. So should I trust Enphase over SE now? Will you trust SE years from now if this board finds them acceptable again(over Enphase)? Just sayin' On 7/23/2020 6:30:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Not to sounds like a Fanboy, but Enphase in a small commercial setting is a real option. Owners love the monitoring aspect, the serviceability, the warranty, etc. There is a good safety argument to be made. Replacing micros on a flat roof is usually a cakewalk if necessary. Dealing with roof-mounted equipment shading issues makes micros a good option if optimizers are off the table. I'm adding an 80kW Enphase IQ array to an existing M-series 70kW system very soon. Here's Phase 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvXyGiUlALw [https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/52f0937e3a3bac7f7f321ef31e4da1975c96346e?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DEvXyGiUlALw&userId=1613865&signature=dfeb13a2c0a9ad67] This one is 208Y/120. For 480V you're looking at a transformer, which changes the calculus.  Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:06 PM AE Solar wrote: interested to know if folks are having issues with specific models or it's all across the board? if it's all across the board, i (like jay) would be interested to know what people are moving on towards. especially for smaller commercial 3phase projects.  adam On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 11:57 AM MiJo Nels wrote: We also, have found this to be the case. Now I feel like I'm in a bad marriage with them. We consistantly wait longer than we are told for replacement product, constantly hearing the same repetitious verbiage from them "just wait a little longer, we'll be able to control your coffee maker with your inverter soon".. or the old "Q1 Q2 Q3" promises for equipment or to get thru beta testing.. .. I too. . .  am "Done". . .   Joe Nelson Project Manager C-46/C-10 Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation CSL# 868816 www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com [https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/b076433a0acc0b1a01b654406f18b97a33441328?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.SustainableEnergyGroup.com&userId=1613865&signature=091d86f6dab3a86d] 530-273-4422 (Office) 530-217-8385 (Cell)      From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jay Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 7:47:31 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 hardware failures...moving on to another inverter.   Hi Scot and others  I’ve heard these horror stories about SE What is the best replacement for SE at this point? Thanks Jay On Jul 23, 2020, at 5:57 AM, scot.arey at solarcentex.com [mailto:scot.arey at solarcentex.com] wrote:  Time has finally come to move on from SolarEdge.   Now replacing the THIRD inverter for one customer alone that has the infamous 181/183 hardware failure error code again.  First one replaced in Sept 2019. Second failure and RMA July 6th 2020, and now this third failure on that replacement inverter.   We have had 24 total RMAs at quick count and it is eating into our credibility.   Solar Edge provided a briefing to me about two months ago acknowledging that their manufacturing quality control issues bordered on a recall, but opted to stay silent and let the installers keep suffering for their materiel and design issues. I was advised that the batch of deficient inverters and their manufacture time frame meant I just needed to get through this summer…perhaps but not another summer ever like this.   No more. 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URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 18:36:32 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 15:36:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ED4A804-69B3-478A-9B88-41F03B996C77@gmail.com> Hi Rick First off dump the 5548’s, they are old and inefficient, especially for selling to the grid. I just swapped 2 20 yr old 4024s for 2 magnums. It was a Original power panel so the 4024 PAE’s fit well and was a 240v generator and system. As to the batteries, I prefer 2v cells, for exactly the reasons you state. To move them a few options. if they are on concrete you can use the old roller method, pry it up and slide steel or even pvc pipes under it and roll it around. Or build a steel dolly with caster wheels, pick up the battery with 1 or 2 engine hoists, then lower into dolly and wheel it around. Of course youve got to somehow get into the truck, But my preferred is to use heavy machinery, backhoe or mini excavator. Saves time, money, backs and fingers. Jay Peltz power. > On Jul 23, 2020, at 2:47 PM, Rick Brown wrote: > > Wrenches, > > Dilemma #1: > > I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set weighs in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The originals were placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going up. > > > > > Dilemma #2: > > The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. > > Thanks, > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com Thu Jul 23 19:24:54 2020 From: rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com (Rick Brown) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 19:24:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas In-Reply-To: <15645927-9915-404A-993A-8EF81628D6E5@sindelarsolar.com> References: <15645927-9915-404A-993A-8EF81628D6E5@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <363DE4B6-F5C0-48C7-A19A-7869837867DF@solshineenergyalternatives.com> Allen, Did you use the battery terminals to pull the cells? I don’t see any other way to grab the cells. Great idea on the engine hoist! rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:03 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > >  > Rick: > 1) consider renting or buying an engine hoist to pull out the individual cells, and lowering each onto a hand truck for transport to your truck. I have done this several times - it’s actually not that difficult with a crew of two or three. > Northwest Energy Storage (www.solarone com, I think) supplies a short, heavy nylon strap with clevises at each end for raising and lowering each cell. You might contact them to purchase one. > At one remote site, the client suggested that I buy a cheap engine hoist from Harbor Freight, as it would be cheaper than renting a professional one. > > 2) the older Trace SW series is early technology in regards to its sell efficiency, because of the lack of what was dubbed ‘silent sell’. The general number from when it was about the only game in town was about 55%. I would suggest upgrading to a modern unit if it’s primarily used for selling back. > > Allan Sindelar, Sindelar Solar > >>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 3:47 PM, Rick Brown wrote: >>> >> Wrenches, >> >> Dilemma #1: >> >> I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set weighs in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The originals were placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going up. >> >> >> >> >> Dilemma #2: >> >> The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. >> >> Thanks, >> >> rick brown >> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >> Check, Virginia 24072 >> 540.808.9502 >> >> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com Thu Jul 23 19:26:18 2020 From: rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com (Rick Brown) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 19:26:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas In-Reply-To: <363DE4B6-F5C0-48C7-A19A-7869837867DF@solshineenergyalternatives.com> References: <363DE4B6-F5C0-48C7-A19A-7869837867DF@solshineenergyalternatives.com> Message-ID: <70C5BAF8-A39F-489B-ADB0-CC62ECCB07B2@solshineenergyalternatives.com> That’s it! Grid Usage Timer. I failed to set that. Thanks! rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Rick Brown wrote: > > Allen, > > Did you use the battery terminals to pull the cells? I don’t see any other way to grab the cells. > > Great idea on the engine hoist! > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > >>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:03 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >>> >>  >> Rick: >> 1) consider renting or buying an engine hoist to pull out the individual cells, and lowering each onto a hand truck for transport to your truck. I have done this several times - it’s actually not that difficult with a crew of two or three. >> Northwest Energy Storage (www.solarone com, I think) supplies a short, heavy nylon strap with clevises at each end for raising and lowering each cell. You might contact them to purchase one. >> At one remote site, the client suggested that I buy a cheap engine hoist from Harbor Freight, as it would be cheaper than renting a professional one. >> >> 2) the older Trace SW series is early technology in regards to its sell efficiency, because of the lack of what was dubbed ‘silent sell’. The general number from when it was about the only game in town was about 55%. I would suggest upgrading to a modern unit if it’s primarily used for selling back. >> >> Allan Sindelar, Sindelar Solar >> >>>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 3:47 PM, Rick Brown wrote: >>>> >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> Dilemma #1: >>> >>> I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set weighs in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The originals were placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going up. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Dilemma #2: >>> >>> The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> rick brown >>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>> 540.808.9502 >>> >>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at mendocinosolar.com Thu Jul 23 19:28:08 2020 From: bruce at mendocinosolar.com (Bruce Erickson) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 16:28:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas In-Reply-To: <001a01d66146$bb238300$316a8900$@glbcc.com> References: <001a01d66146$bb238300$316a8900$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <580BCE24-319D-49B7-9C3B-D052C3FB841F@mendocinosolar.com> We’ve moved the whole thing using a pallet jack. Low center of gravity, nothing is hanging, no disassembly. But it assumes that the cases were placed on blocks originally so you can get the jack under them. Also helps if it's on a slab or a very sturdy wooden floor. We get them outside and hire a local firewood guy with a hoist on his truck to load them and take them away or transfer them to the recycler's truck. Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 "Serving the Solar System" > On Jul 23, 2020, at 4:12 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > I have also seen automotive engine hoists reversed and with ballast, used to grunt very heavy batteries. > > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 6:22 PM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas > > Chain hoist and muscle for the move. It's not easy. It can be hard to get them out of the steel case. Slow and careful... I haven't done this a lot, but the few times it was a dicey proposition. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:47 PM Rick Brown > wrote: >> Wrenches, >> >> Dilemma #1: >> >> I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set weighs in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The originals were placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going up. >> >> >> >> Dilemma #2: >> >> The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. >> >> Thanks, >> >> rick brown >> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >> Check, Virginia 24072 >> 540.808.9502 >> >> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com Thu Jul 23 19:30:06 2020 From: rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com (Rick Brown) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 19:30:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas In-Reply-To: <70C5BAF8-A39F-489B-ADB0-CC62ECCB07B2@solshineenergyalternatives.com> References: <70C5BAF8-A39F-489B-ADB0-CC62ECCB07B2@solshineenergyalternatives.com> Message-ID: Jay I’m in agreement, however, after the customer just spent $16k for new batteries, he’s not too keen on spending more to replace the inverter if it’s functioning. Good idea on the rollers! rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:26 PM, Rick Brown wrote: > > That’s it! Grid Usage Timer. I failed to set that. Thanks! > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > >>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Rick Brown wrote: >>> >> Allen, >> >> Did you use the battery terminals to pull the cells? I don’t see any other way to grab the cells. >> >> Great idea on the engine hoist! >> >> rick brown >> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >> Check, Virginia 24072 >> 540.808.9502 >> >> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >> >>>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:03 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >>>> >>>  >>> Rick: >>> 1) consider renting or buying an engine hoist to pull out the individual cells, and lowering each onto a hand truck for transport to your truck. I have done this several times - it’s actually not that difficult with a crew of two or three. >>> Northwest Energy Storage (www.solarone com, I think) supplies a short, heavy nylon strap with clevises at each end for raising and lowering each cell. You might contact them to purchase one. >>> At one remote site, the client suggested that I buy a cheap engine hoist from Harbor Freight, as it would be cheaper than renting a professional one. >>> >>> 2) the older Trace SW series is early technology in regards to its sell efficiency, because of the lack of what was dubbed ‘silent sell’. The general number from when it was about the only game in town was about 55%. I would suggest upgrading to a modern unit if it’s primarily used for selling back. >>> >>> Allan Sindelar, Sindelar Solar >>> >>>>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 3:47 PM, Rick Brown wrote: >>>>> >>>> Wrenches, >>>> >>>> Dilemma #1: >>>> >>>> I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set weighs in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The originals were placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going up. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dilemma #2: >>>> >>>> The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> rick brown >>>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>>> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >>>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>>> 540.808.9502 >>>> >>>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Jul 23 19:34:32 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 19:34:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48864D81-CEA8-4782-8E0B-72A09C29D5A3@swnl.net> Your missing the small writing on the black display bezel on the inverter….. “Hal 9000", “sorry Rick I can’t allow you to do that”. Your batteries, Have you removed or would like to know how to remove individual cells or are you trying to move the whole tray? If you want to call my cell # Ill be more then happy to offer my suggestions. I always try to use the larger cells so I have moved quite a few, and replaced quite a few cells too. OR are you looking to find other options. The old SW 5548 was it working before you got there? depending on the year had a "grid inter tie box” . Are you expecting to see it sell after turning the unit on? Shorten up the Absorb time to 0, lower the sell voltage to below what the batteries are reading then see if it connects. remember it too has a grid lock out time if the “grid internee box is installed. 300secs i believe. The sell mode was not to smooth w/ the “grid box” it would fluctuate from 1amp to what the highest sell current setting, back n forth. > On Jul 23, 2020, at 6:27 PM, Chris Sparadeo wrote: > > Dilemma #2 > > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 6:22 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > Chain hoist and muscle for the move. It's not easy. It can be hard to get them out of the steel case. Slow and careful... I haven't done this a lot, but the few times it was a dicey proposition. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:47 PM Rick Brown > wrote: > Wrenches, > > Dilemma #1: > > I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set weighs in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The originals were placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going up. > > > > Dilemma #2: > > The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. > > Thanks, > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com Thu Jul 23 19:34:31 2020 From: rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com (Rick Brown) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 19:34:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They’re sitting directly on a slab but then transitions to dirt and then outside. Not the ideal situation. rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:30 PM, Rick Brown wrote: > > Jay > > I’m in agreement, however, after the customer just spent $16k for new batteries, he’s not too keen on spending more to replace the inverter if it’s functioning. > > Good idea on the rollers! > > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > >>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:26 PM, Rick Brown wrote: >>> >> That’s it! Grid Usage Timer. I failed to set that. Thanks! >> >> rick brown >> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >> Check, Virginia 24072 >> 540.808.9502 >> >> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >> >>>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Rick Brown wrote: >>>> >>> Allen, >>> >>> Did you use the battery terminals to pull the cells? I don’t see any other way to grab the cells. >>> >>> Great idea on the engine hoist! >>> >>> rick brown >>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>> 540.808.9502 >>> >>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>> >>>>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:03 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >>>>> >>>>  >>>> Rick: >>>> 1) consider renting or buying an engine hoist to pull out the individual cells, and lowering each onto a hand truck for transport to your truck. I have done this several times - it’s actually not that difficult with a crew of two or three. >>>> Northwest Energy Storage (www.solarone com, I think) supplies a short, heavy nylon strap with clevises at each end for raising and lowering each cell. You might contact them to purchase one. >>>> At one remote site, the client suggested that I buy a cheap engine hoist from Harbor Freight, as it would be cheaper than renting a professional one. >>>> >>>> 2) the older Trace SW series is early technology in regards to its sell efficiency, because of the lack of what was dubbed ‘silent sell’. The general number from when it was about the only game in town was about 55%. I would suggest upgrading to a modern unit if it’s primarily used for selling back. >>>> >>>> Allan Sindelar, Sindelar Solar >>>> >>>>>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 3:47 PM, Rick Brown wrote: >>>>>> >>>>> Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> Dilemma #1: >>>>> >>>>> I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set weighs in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The originals were placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going up. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dilemma #2: >>>>> >>>>> The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> rick brown >>>>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>>>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>>>> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >>>>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>>>> 540.808.9502 >>>>> >>>>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>>>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>>>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 20:04:18 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 20:04:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas In-Reply-To: <48864D81-CEA8-4782-8E0B-72A09C29D5A3@swnl.net> References: <48864D81-CEA8-4782-8E0B-72A09C29D5A3@swnl.net> Message-ID: If your in an area where you are inspected (our even if not) I believe you are officially required to use a GTI box to sell back. As I remember it, it really does next to nothing - it was just Trace's way to get UL listing for selling back, since the SW failed a UL test at one point. It may be hard to find one at this point. Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 7:34 PM Tump wrote: > Your missing the small writing on the black display bezel on the > inverter….. “Hal 9000", “sorry Rick I can’t allow you to do that”. > Your batteries, Have you removed or would like to know how to remove > individual cells or are you trying to move the whole tray? If you want to > call my cell # Ill be more then happy to offer my suggestions. I always try > to use the larger cells so I have moved quite a few, and replaced quite a > few cells too. > OR are you looking to find other options. > The old SW 5548 was it working before you got there? depending on the year > had a "grid inter tie box” . Are you expecting to see it sell after turning > the unit on? Shorten up the Absorb time to 0, lower the sell voltage to > below what the batteries are reading then see if it connects. remember it > too has a grid lock out time if the “grid internee box is installed. > 300secs i believe. > The sell mode was not to smooth w/ the “grid box” it would fluctuate from > 1amp to what the highest sell current setting, back n forth. > > On Jul 23, 2020, at 6:27 PM, Chris Sparadeo > wrote: > > Dilemma #2 > > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 6:22 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Chain hoist and muscle for the move. It's not easy. It can be hard to get >> them out of the steel case. Slow and careful... I haven't done this a lot, >> but the few times it was a dicey proposition. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:47 PM Rick Brown < >> rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com> wrote: >> >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> Dilemma #1: >>> >>> I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set >>> weighs in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The >>> originals were placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going >>> up. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dilemma #2: >>> >>> The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback >>> FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging >>> parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the >>> batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I >>> missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> rick brown >>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >>> >>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>> 540.808.9502 >>> >>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Jul 23 20:04:49 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 20:04:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [addressing #1 Dilemmas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <887C5FAC-FBE7-4FAB-BA54-A2370C7F2B46@swnl.net> Vacuum the concrete floor, Use a set of pry bars to lift the edge of the case or a pic (flat edge) can be inserted under the edge of the case and you can step on the pointed end of the pick to assist in getting it up enough to insert a 1/2” pipe. Conduit works well too, I have different sizes of pipe, once you get the first pipe centered under the case you can rock it to get one edge higher enabling you to use a 3/4 piece of conduit and so on. On the dirt floor use planks NOT plywood or flooring again depending on the height of the threshold use the various pipe diameters along w/ the center pivot point to go over the threshold. the same thing once you get it outside. Safety glasses, rope thru the case to aid in pulling and only hold your pipes w/ your finger tips. You will be surprised how easy things will be. I will usually have 3-4 pieces of conduit of various sizes. > On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:34 PM, Rick Brown wrote: > > They’re sitting directly on a slab but then transitions to dirt and then outside. Not the ideal situation. > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > >> On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:30 PM, Rick Brown wrote: >> >> Jay >> >> I’m in agreement, however, after the customer just spent $16k for new batteries, he’s not too keen on spending more to replace the inverter if it’s functioning. >> >> Good idea on the rollers! >> >> >> rick brown >> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >> Check, Virginia 24072 >> 540.808.9502 >> >> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >> >>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:26 PM, Rick Brown wrote: >>> >>> That’s it! Grid Usage Timer. I failed to set that. Thanks! >>> >>> rick brown >>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>> 540.808.9502 >>> >>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>> >>>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Rick Brown wrote: >>>> >>>> Allen, >>>> >>>> Did you use the battery terminals to pull the cells? I don’t see any other way to grab the cells. >>>> >>>> Great idea on the engine hoist! >>>> >>>> rick brown >>>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>>> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >>>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>>> 540.808.9502 >>>> >>>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>>> >>>>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:03 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> Rick: >>>>> 1) consider renting or buying an engine hoist to pull out the individual cells, and lowering each onto a hand truck for transport to your truck. I have done this several times - it’s actually not that difficult with a crew of two or three. >>>>> Northwest Energy Storage (www.solarone com, I think) supplies a short, heavy nylon strap with clevises at each end for raising and lowering each cell. You might contact them to purchase one. >>>>> At one remote site, the client suggested that I buy a cheap engine hoist from Harbor Freight, as it would be cheaper than renting a professional one. >>>>> >>>>> 2) the older Trace SW series is early technology in regards to its sell efficiency, because of the lack of what was dubbed ‘silent sell’. The general number from when it was about the only game in town was about 55%. I would suggest upgrading to a modern unit if it’s primarily used for selling back. >>>>> >>>>> Allan Sindelar, Sindelar Solar >>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 3:47 PM, Rick Brown wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Wrenches, >>>>>> >>>>>> Dilemma #1: >>>>>> >>>>>> I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set weighs in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The originals were placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going up. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dilemma #2: >>>>>> >>>>>> The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> rick brown >>>>>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>>>>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>>>>> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >>>>>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>>>>> 540.808.9502 >>>>>> >>>>>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>>>>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>>>>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>>>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 20:03:57 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 17:03:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Then you can use the same Egyptian roller technique with 2x4”/6”/8” etc wood. Put the wood on the ground, then use the rollers on the wood. Does assume the ground is relatively flat, I’d hate to see one of those batteries zooming down a hill. A pry bar will get the battery lifted so you can put the rollers under it. jay peltz power > On Jul 23, 2020, at 4:34 PM, Rick Brown wrote: > > They’re sitting directly on a slab but then transitions to dirt and then outside. Not the ideal situation. > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > >> On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:30 PM, Rick Brown wrote: >> >> Jay >> >> I’m in agreement, however, after the customer just spent $16k for new batteries, he’s not too keen on spending more to replace the inverter if it’s functioning. >> >> Good idea on the rollers! >> >> >> rick brown >> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >> Check, Virginia 24072 >> 540.808.9502 >> >> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >> >>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:26 PM, Rick Brown wrote: >>> >>> That’s it! Grid Usage Timer. I failed to set that. Thanks! >>> >>> rick brown >>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>> 540.808.9502 >>> >>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>> >>>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Rick Brown wrote: >>>> >>>> Allen, >>>> >>>> Did you use the battery terminals to pull the cells? I don’t see any other way to grab the cells. >>>> >>>> Great idea on the engine hoist! >>>> >>>> rick brown >>>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>>> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >>>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>>> 540.808.9502 >>>> >>>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>>> >>>>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:03 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> Rick: >>>>> 1) consider renting or buying an engine hoist to pull out the individual cells, and lowering each onto a hand truck for transport to your truck. I have done this several times - it’s actually not that difficult with a crew of two or three. >>>>> Northwest Energy Storage (www.solarone com, I think) supplies a short, heavy nylon strap with clevises at each end for raising and lowering each cell. You might contact them to purchase one. >>>>> At one remote site, the client suggested that I buy a cheap engine hoist from Harbor Freight, as it would be cheaper than renting a professional one. >>>>> >>>>> 2) the older Trace SW series is early technology in regards to its sell efficiency, because of the lack of what was dubbed ‘silent sell’. The general number from when it was about the only game in town was about 55%. I would suggest upgrading to a modern unit if it’s primarily used for selling back. >>>>> >>>>> Allan Sindelar, Sindelar Solar >>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 3:47 PM, Rick Brown wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Wrenches, >>>>>> >>>>>> Dilemma #1: >>>>>> >>>>>> I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set weighs in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The originals were placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going up. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dilemma #2: >>>>>> >>>>>> The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> rick brown >>>>>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>>>>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>>>>> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >>>>>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>>>>> 540.808.9502 >>>>>> >>>>>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>>>>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>>>>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>>>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jul 23 20:10:33 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 17:10:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas Message-ID: <9dc7411749fa48efff7ba0334d3a7caf@mail.gmail.com> Rick: We’ve dealt with the no-slab problem by setting some steel traffic plates. To move these plates use the same heavy lifting equipment you will already have on site (crane truck, forklift, backhoe, rollers and/or pallet jack). WE buy a lot of generators and our generator dealer has a crane truck that he helps us with. I gotta say though, if you have a battery room, you are going to moving batteries in and out periodically, so it’s smart to just pour a slab with an apron and get it over with. We’ve rented a small telehandler . This will get your steel plates to or in the door and get the battery trays off the trailer and onto the pallet jack. If you don’t want to keep the plates, they can be rented, likely from the same yard that you get the lift from. Attached is a better photo of the pallet jack with the shoe we fabricated. The shoe attaches with 4 3/8X16 flat head screws. Spin them out when you are done and you have a spare pallet jack. The photo shows us removing some Hawkers. We are lifting the nose of the tray just a bit to get the near horizontal block out. There is another block at the back of the tray and one length-wise under the middle. Once the first block is out the tray sits firmly on the other two blocks and allows the pallet jack to slide in. The concept is a bit abstract but simple in operation. We developed a technique with the pallet jack and a pipe roller to get the pallet jack over a concrete lip. It’s hard to explain but it involves jacking up the pallet jack, placing a roller underneath and then retracting first the front and then the back wheels. It’s a very smooth operation once you get the concept. Good luck. William -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_4510.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1562274 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jul 23 20:15:01 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 17:15:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas In-Reply-To: References: <48864D81-CEA8-4782-8E0B-72A09C29D5A3@swnl.net> Message-ID: <1766042afe1b7dde38db4bafe23a65e0@mail.gmail.com> Howie: I learned a while ago what the GTI actually does: Without it the Trace inverter “leaks” power onto the grid. I had a set of 5548s and turned off the sell for about a year but the utility reported that the still sold a minor amount of energy to the grid. Who would have thought that would happen? William *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Howie Michaelson *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2020 5:04 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas If your in an area where you are inspected (our even if not) I believe you are officially required to use a GTI box to sell back. As I remember it, it really does next to nothing - it was just Trace's way to get UL listing for selling back, since the SW failed a UL test at one point. It may be hard to find one at this point. Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 7:34 PM Tump wrote: Your missing the small writing on the black display bezel on the inverter….. “Hal 9000", “sorry Rick I can’t allow you to do that”. Your batteries, Have you removed or would like to know how to remove individual cells or are you trying to move the whole tray? If you want to call my cell # Ill be more then happy to offer my suggestions. I always try to use the larger cells so I have moved quite a few, and replaced quite a few cells too. OR are you looking to find other options. The old SW 5548 was it working before you got there? depending on the year had a "grid inter tie box” . Are you expecting to see it sell after turning the unit on? Shorten up the Absorb time to 0, lower the sell voltage to below what the batteries are reading then see if it connects. remember it too has a grid lock out time if the “grid internee box is installed. 300secs i believe. The sell mode was not to smooth w/ the “grid box” it would fluctuate from 1amp to what the highest sell current setting, back n forth. On Jul 23, 2020, at 6:27 PM, Chris Sparadeo wrote: Dilemma #2 On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 6:22 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: Chain hoist and muscle for the move. It's not easy. It can be hard to get them out of the steel case. Slow and careful... I haven't done this a lot, but the few times it was a dicey proposition. Jason Szumlanski On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:47 PM Rick Brown < rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com> wrote: Wrenches, Dilemma #1: I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set weighs in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The originals were placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going up. Dilemma #2: The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. Thanks, rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org *Tump at swnl.net * *www.SWNL.net * Solarwinds Northernlights * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* * 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 * *Blair "TUMP" May* * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jul 23 20:11:28 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 17:11:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas Message-ID: <8c7bf52ba82effda2b2e812fe540a243@mail.gmail.com> Rick: Taking these cells out of the tray is an extra step that might be avoided. (Often the cells are soldered together, so that prevents removal unless you are prepared to drill and re-solder, a very specialized skillset.) There is rarely enough headroom in your battery room to set up a hoist to reload the trays, so that technique can be a dead-end for more multiple reasons. We purchased a special order, narrower than usual pallet jack (see attached photo, not more than $250) to handle the loaded trays. We eventually welded up a simple “shoe” to keep the tray more stable on the pallet jack. I can provide more photos off-line if you wish. We place a pressure treat 4X4 or 4X6 support cross-wise where the far end of where the tray will reside and another pressure treat in a T shape so the pallet jack will straddle the second block. We drive the pallet jack over the blocks and lower the tray right onto the blocks. We drive the pallet jack out and drive another 4X4 crosswise under the front. Done! Getting the trays on your trailer and back off at the job requires a crane or forklift with a bridle, but the same is true if you are trying to unload cells. Therefore with this technique you need almost the same equipment, just subtract the chain hoist and add the pallet jack. (In our shop this narrow pallet jack has become indispensable. It is more versatile than the stock-width units. One of my favorite tools.) If you have more questions I’d be happy to discuss off-line. William Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_7329.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1676692 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com Thu Jul 23 20:36:17 2020 From: rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com (Rick Brown) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 20:36:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8A631809-72D3-4D62-9328-0FA41C2B61BB@solshineenergyalternatives.com> All great ideas! You all came through. Thanks! rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On Jul 23, 2020, at 8:15 PM, jay wrote: > > Then you can use the same Egyptian roller technique with 2x4”/6”/8” etc wood. > > Put the wood on the ground, then use the rollers on the wood. Does assume the ground is relatively flat, I’d hate to see one of those batteries zooming down a hill. > > A pry bar will get the battery lifted so you can put the rollers under it. > > jay > > peltz power > >> On Jul 23, 2020, at 4:34 PM, Rick Brown wrote: >> >> They’re sitting directly on a slab but then transitions to dirt and then outside. Not the ideal situation. >> >> rick brown >> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >> Check, Virginia 24072 >> 540.808.9502 >> >> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >> >>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:30 PM, Rick Brown wrote: >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> I’m in agreement, however, after the customer just spent $16k for new batteries, he’s not too keen on spending more to replace the inverter if it’s functioning. >>> >>> Good idea on the rollers! >>> >>> >>> rick brown >>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>> 540.808.9502 >>> >>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>> >>>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:26 PM, Rick Brown wrote: >>>> >>>> That’s it! Grid Usage Timer. I failed to set that. Thanks! >>>> >>>> rick brown >>>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>>> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >>>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>>> 540.808.9502 >>>> >>>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>>> >>>>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Rick Brown wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Allen, >>>>> >>>>> Did you use the battery terminals to pull the cells? I don’t see any other way to grab the cells. >>>>> >>>>> Great idea on the engine hoist! >>>>> >>>>> rick brown >>>>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>>>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>>>> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >>>>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>>>> 540.808.9502 >>>>> >>>>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>>>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>>>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:03 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>  >>>>>> Rick: >>>>>> 1) consider renting or buying an engine hoist to pull out the individual cells, and lowering each onto a hand truck for transport to your truck. I have done this several times - it’s actually not that difficult with a crew of two or three. >>>>>> Northwest Energy Storage (www.solarone com, I think) supplies a short, heavy nylon strap with clevises at each end for raising and lowering each cell. You might contact them to purchase one. >>>>>> At one remote site, the client suggested that I buy a cheap engine hoist from Harbor Freight, as it would be cheaper than renting a professional one. >>>>>> >>>>>> 2) the older Trace SW series is early technology in regards to its sell efficiency, because of the lack of what was dubbed ‘silent sell’. The general number from when it was about the only game in town was about 55%. I would suggest upgrading to a modern unit if it’s primarily used for selling back. >>>>>> >>>>>> Allan Sindelar, Sindelar Solar >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 3:47 PM, Rick Brown wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wrenches, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dilemma #1: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set weighs in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The originals were placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going up. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dilemma #2: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> rick brown >>>>>>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>>>>>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>>>>>> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >>>>>>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>>>>>> 540.808.9502 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>>>>>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>>>>>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>>>>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Jul 23 20:54:21 2020 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 18:54:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas In-Reply-To: <363DE4B6-F5C0-48C7-A19A-7869837867DF@solshineenergyalternatives.com> References: <363DE4B6-F5C0-48C7-A19A-7869837867DF@solshineenergyalternatives.com> Message-ID: Yes. That’s exactly what’s specified by NWES, and is a benefit of the nonconducting nylon strap. Allan > On Jul 23, 2020, at 5:25 PM, Rick Brown wrote: > > Allen, > > Did you use the battery terminals to pull the cells? I don’t see any other way to grab the cells. > > Great idea on the engine hoist! > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > >>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:03 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >>> >>  >> Rick: >> 1) consider renting or buying an engine hoist to pull out the individual cells, and lowering each onto a hand truck for transport to your truck. I have done this several times - it’s actually not that difficult with a crew of two or three. >> Northwest Energy Storage (www.solarone com, I think) supplies a short, heavy nylon strap with clevises at each end for raising and lowering each cell. You might contact them to purchase one. >> At one remote site, the client suggested that I buy a cheap engine hoist from Harbor Freight, as it would be cheaper than renting a professional one. >> >> 2) the older Trace SW series is early technology in regards to its sell efficiency, because of the lack of what was dubbed ‘silent sell’. The general number from when it was about the only game in town was about 55%. I would suggest upgrading to a modern unit if it’s primarily used for selling back. >> >> Allan Sindelar, Sindelar Solar >> >>>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 3:47 PM, Rick Brown wrote: >>>> >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> Dilemma #1: >>> >>> I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set weighs in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The originals were placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going up. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Dilemma #2: >>> >>> The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> rick brown >>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>> 540.808.9502 >>> >>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Jul 23 21:10:06 2020 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 19:10:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E7A6715-E8AB-4B84-84CC-2424D96A1560@sindelarsolar.com> Howie, Your advice is misleading. You can’t add a ‘Grid Tie Interface’ to just any SW. it has to have the 4.10 firmware, and I think it also had an additional communication port and cable. The more common SWs had 4.01 firmware chipset, which was Trace’s best but wasn’t compatible with the GTI. It’s also a nonissue for Rick. If he’s just replacing batteries he doesn’t need to meet later or current Code, as the system is grandfathered. Besides, no Trace-branded inverter had to add the GTI to meet Code; that came only after Xanthrax - er, Xantrex - got a bit too uppity. Allan > On Jul 23, 2020, at 6:04 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: >  > If your in an area where you are inspected (our even if not) I believe you are officially required to use a GTI box to sell back. As I remember it, it really does next to nothing - it was just Trace's way to get UL listing for selling back, since the SW failed a UL test at one point. It may be hard to find one at this point. > Howie > > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > >> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 7:34 PM Tump wrote: >> Your missing the small writing on the black display bezel on the inverter….. “Hal 9000", “sorry Rick I can’t allow you to do that”. >> Your batteries, Have you removed or would like to know how to remove individual cells or are you trying to move the whole tray? If you want to call my cell # Ill be more then happy to offer my suggestions. I always try to use the larger cells so I have moved quite a few, and replaced quite a few cells too. >> OR are you looking to find other options. >> The old SW 5548 was it working before you got there? depending on the year had a "grid inter tie box” . Are you expecting to see it sell after turning the unit on? Shorten up the Absorb time to 0, lower the sell voltage to below what the batteries are reading then see if it connects. remember it too has a grid lock out time if the “grid internee box is installed. 300secs i believe. >> The sell mode was not to smooth w/ the “grid box” it would fluctuate from 1amp to what the highest sell current setting, back n forth. >> >>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 6:27 PM, Chris Sparadeo wrote: >>> >>> Dilemma #2 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 6:22 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>> Chain hoist and muscle for the move. It's not easy. It can be hard to get them out of the steel case. Slow and careful... I haven't done this a lot, but the few times it was a dicey proposition. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:47 PM Rick Brown wrote: >>>>> Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> Dilemma #1: >>>>> >>>>> I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set weighs in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The originals were placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going up. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dilemma #2: >>>>> >>>>> The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> rick brown >>>>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>>>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>>>> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >>>>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>>>> 540.808.9502 >>>>> >>>>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>>>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>>>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> -- >>> Chris Sparadeo >>> >>> >>> C_802-369-4458 >>> H_802-728-3059 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> >>> Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net >>> Solarwinds Northernlights >>> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >>> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >>> Blair "TUMP" May >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >>> >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 21:27:23 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 21:27:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas In-Reply-To: <4E7A6715-E8AB-4B84-84CC-2424D96A1560@sindelarsolar.com> References: <4E7A6715-E8AB-4B84-84CC-2424D96A1560@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Agreed Allan. After checking back to the original query in the thread, I remembered that this was an existing system already previously backfeeding, so no changes necessary. And thanks for the reminder that it was the Xantrex labeled inverters that required the GTI. Howie *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 9:10 PM Allan Sindelar wrote: > Howie, > Your advice is misleading. You can’t add a ‘Grid Tie Interface’ to just > any SW. it has to have the 4.10 firmware, and I think it also had an > additional communication port and cable. The more common SWs had 4.01 > firmware chipset, which was Trace’s best but wasn’t compatible with the > GTI. > It’s also a nonissue for Rick. If he’s just replacing batteries he doesn’t > need to meet later or current Code, as the system is grandfathered. > Besides, no Trace-branded inverter had to add the GTI to meet Code; that > came only after Xanthrax - er, Xantrex - got a bit too uppity. > Allan > > On Jul 23, 2020, at 6:04 PM, Howie Michaelson > wrote: > >  > If your in an area where you are inspected (our even if not) I believe you > are officially required to use a GTI box to sell back. As I remember it, it > really does next to nothing - it was just Trace's way to get UL listing for > selling back, since the SW failed a UL test at one point. It may be hard to > find one at this point. > Howie > > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 7:34 PM Tump wrote: > >> Your missing the small writing on the black display bezel on the >> inverter….. “Hal 9000", “sorry Rick I can’t allow you to do that”. >> Your batteries, Have you removed or would like to know how to remove >> individual cells or are you trying to move the whole tray? If you want to >> call my cell # Ill be more then happy to offer my suggestions. I always try >> to use the larger cells so I have moved quite a few, and replaced quite a >> few cells too. >> OR are you looking to find other options. >> The old SW 5548 was it working before you got there? depending on the >> year had a "grid inter tie box” . Are you expecting to see it sell after >> turning the unit on? Shorten up the Absorb time to 0, lower the sell >> voltage to below what the batteries are reading then see if it connects. >> remember it too has a grid lock out time if the “grid internee box is >> installed. 300secs i believe. >> The sell mode was not to smooth w/ the “grid box” it would fluctuate from >> 1amp to what the highest sell current setting, back n forth. >> >> On Jul 23, 2020, at 6:27 PM, Chris Sparadeo >> wrote: >> >> Dilemma #2 >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 6:22 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> Chain hoist and muscle for the move. It's not easy. It can be hard to >>> get them out of the steel case. Slow and careful... I haven't done this a >>> lot, but the few times it was a dicey proposition. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:47 PM Rick Brown < >>> rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Wrenches, >>>> >>>> Dilemma #1: >>>> >>>> I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set >>>> weighs in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The >>>> originals were placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going >>>> up. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dilemma #2: >>>> >>>> The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback >>>> FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging >>>> parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the >>>> batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I >>>> missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> rick brown >>>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>>> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >>>> >>>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>>> 540.808.9502 >>>> >>>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -- >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> >> C_802-369-4458 >> H_802-728-3059 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* >> * 207-832-7574 Cl. >> 610-517-8401 * >> *Blair "TUMP" May* >> >> >> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* >> >> >> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jul 24 00:25:42 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 21:25:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I too have had the big battery issue, I took them apart, pulled each battery out and moved it that was. What is your sell voltage set too, is it going past the voltage? Is it even reaching that voltage. On Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 2:47 PM Rick Brown < rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com> wrote: > Wrenches, > > Dilemma #1: > > I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set > weighs in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The > originals were placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going > up. > > > > Dilemma #2: > > The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback > FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging > parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the > batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I > missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. > > Thanks, > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 45800 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 45800 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Jul 24 07:13:39 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 07:13:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas In-Reply-To: <363DE4B6-F5C0-48C7-A19A-7869837867DF@solshineenergyalternatives.com> References: <15645927-9915-404A-993A-8EF81628D6E5@sindelarsolar.com> <363DE4B6-F5C0-48C7-A19A-7869837867DF@solshineenergyalternatives.com> Message-ID: <5871914D-1039-4C0E-80BC-95D2F1C9A971@swnl.net> Use rope or I have nylon straps w/ snaps that I use, if the cells are bolted, otherwise sawzall the interconnects and a rope thru the bolt holes, n lift. There are times that I will hit the case w/ a large hammer to start the removal of individual cells. When installing new cells silicone spray or dish soap will ease installation. > On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Rick Brown > wrote: > > Allen, > > Did you use the battery terminals to pull the cells? I don’t see any other way to grab the cells. > > Great idea on the engine hoist! > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > >> On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:03 PM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: >> >>  >> Rick: >> 1) consider renting or buying an engine hoist to pull out the individual cells, and lowering each onto a hand truck for transport to your truck. I have done this several times - it’s actually not that difficult with a crew of two or three. >> Northwest Energy Storage (www.solarone com, I think) supplies a short, heavy nylon strap with clevises at each end for raising and lowering each cell. You might contact them to purchase one. >> At one remote site, the client suggested that I buy a cheap engine hoist from Harbor Freight, as it would be cheaper than renting a professional one. >> >> 2) the older Trace SW series is early technology in regards to its sell efficiency, because of the lack of what was dubbed ‘silent sell’. The general number from when it was about the only game in town was about 55%. I would suggest upgrading to a modern unit if it’s primarily used for selling back. >> >> Allan Sindelar, Sindelar Solar >> >>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 3:47 PM, Rick Brown > wrote: >>> >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> Dilemma #1: >>> >>> I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set weighs in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The originals were placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going up. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Dilemma #2: >>> >>> The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> rick brown >>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>> 540.808.9502 >>> >>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Jul 24 11:37:43 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 11:37:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 hardware failures...moving on to another inverter. In-Reply-To: References: <088701d6605c$327d0480$97770d80$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Enphase's early failure rate was ridiculous, but we are finding that once the faulty M190's were swapped after the first few years, the ones that didn't fail have been relatively solid. In other words, let's say (unscientifically) 30% of the M190's on a job installed 10 years ago failed in the first 3 years. After that, we had a VERY low failure rate on that system. I can't remember the last time I replaced an M190, and we have a lot of them floating around out there. In each successive generation (M215, M250, IQ6, IQ7) we have seen progressively lower failure rates in the first 1, 2, and 3 years, which points to a dramatic increase in initial reliability. If history is a guide, the IQ series looks like 10 years from now we will be calling it a huge success. Of course, only time will tell. Micro replacements are a nuisance, for sure, but we haven't 'lost' much money on replacements. I have lost lots of money struggling through string inverter replacements due to unknown complications (physical, electrical, monitoring, etc). A micro swap is a known entity and minimal complexity. I can send a minimally trained (lower cost) individual to handle it and deal with the administrative (monitoring) part in the office. The bottom line is that I am doing far FEWER micro replacements today than I did 6-7 years ago when I was maintaining less than 1/3 of the units I have now under supervision. My impression is that if micro is going to fail, it's going to fail early on. Let's hope I'm right. One last point... despite a couple of bumps in the road with service hold times and warranty replacement waits, Enphase's customer service has been second to none over the course of the last decade. Their front-line staff are well trained and knowledgeable, and access to second-tier support has been phenomenal. SE gives you the same runaround as Fronius (don't get me started on IGs) and other string inverter manufacturers when an HD Wave goes down (have to be on site, provide a bunch of mostly irrelevant voltage readings, check fuses, looks for signs of burned components, and so on to get warranty satisfaction). Jason On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 7:21 PM Kirk Herander wrote: > I gave up on Enphase a long time ago for the same reasons many of you are > dumping on SE now. High replacement rate etc. Any of you in this biz longer > than ten years knows how horrible the first several generations of Enphase > was. So should I trust Enphase over SE now? Will you trust SE years from > now if this board finds them acceptable again(over Enphase)? Just sayin' > > On 7/23/2020 6:30:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Not to sounds like a Fanboy, but Enphase in a small commercial setting is > a real option. Owners love the monitoring aspect, the serviceability, the > warranty, etc. There is a good safety argument to be made. Replacing micros > on a flat roof is usually a cakewalk if necessary. Dealing with > roof-mounted equipment shading issues makes micros a good option if > optimizers are off the table. > > I'm adding an 80kW Enphase IQ array to an existing M-series 70kW system > very soon. Here's Phase 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvXyGiUlALw > > > This one is 208Y/120. For 480V you're looking at a transformer, which > changes the calculus. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:06 PM AE Solar > wrote: > >> interested to know if folks are having issues with specific models or >> it's all across the board? if it's all across the board, i (like jay) would >> be interested to know what people are moving on towards. especially for >> smaller commercial 3phase projects. >> adam >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 11:57 AM MiJo Nels >> wrote: >> >>> We also, have found this to be the case. Now I feel like I'm in a bad >>> marriage with them. We consistantly wait longer than we are told for >>> replacement product, constantly hearing the same repetitious verbiage from >>> them "just wait a little longer, we'll be able to control your coffee maker >>> with your inverter soon".. or the old "Q1 Q2 Q3" promises for equipment or >>> to get thru beta testing.. .. I too. . . am "Done". . . >>> >>> Joe Nelson >>> >>> Project Manager C-46/C-10 >>> Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation >>> >>> CSL# 868816 >>> www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com >>> >>> 530-273-4422 (Office) >>> >>> 530-217-8385 (Cell) >>> >>>  >>> >>>     >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>> behalf of Jay >>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2020 7:47:31 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 >>> hardware failures...moving on to another inverter. >>> >>> Hi Scot and others >>> >>> I’ve heard these horror stories about SE >>> >>> What is the best replacement for SE at this point? >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 5:57 AM, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> Time has finally come to move on from SolarEdge. >>> >>> >>> >>> Now replacing the THIRD inverter for one customer alone that has the >>> infamous 181/183 hardware failure error code again. First one replaced in >>> Sept 2019. Second failure and RMA July 6th 2020, and now this third >>> failure on that replacement inverter. >>> >>> >>> >>> We have had 24 total RMAs at quick count and it is eating into our >>> credibility. >>> >>> >>> >>> Solar Edge provided a briefing to me about two months ago acknowledging >>> that their manufacturing quality control issues bordered on a recall, but >>> opted to stay silent and let the installers keep suffering for their >>> materiel and design issues. I was advised that the batch of deficient >>> inverters and their manufacture time frame meant I just needed to get >>> through this summer…perhaps but not another summer ever like this. >>> >>> >>> >>> No more. Au revoir, Solar Edge. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood > Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change > listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Jul 24 12:20:36 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 09:20:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 hardware failures...moving on to another inverter. In-Reply-To: References: <088701d6605c$327d0480$97770d80$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: We've installed lots of Enphase, SolarEdge, and the various string inverters over the years. As far as Enphase goes, our experience is not too far from what Jason described - we had thousands of the M190/M210 generation installed and experienced a very high failure rate. Our failure rate on those older systems seems to have stabilized. I think we're doing maybe one Enphase micro replacement site call per month or so, which is quite manageable. I do expect to continue to have a trickle of failures, but they are now not too far out of line compared to our string inverter failure rates (SMA/Fronious/ABB/Xantrex/Etc). We've been installing SolarEdge on our small and medium commercial system for the past few years with success. I don't think we've had a single failure, but we don't do a ton on commercial, we have 20 sites in our SolarEdge portfolio. I think it's good to focus on features, price, reliability, service, bankability, etc and continually reevaluate the companies and products on the market. We have certainly stopped installing Enphase back in 2013 when were seeing peak failures which was a good decision. But the newer equipment has been solid. SMA, which had classically been our go-to string inverter choice, just hasn't kept up with the market and their choices are too complicated compared to the SunPower AC modules (with Enphase micros built in) we're now installing. I'm sort of over DC systems for residential projects, especially if thinking about the KISS model of trying to keep everything as simple as possible. The wiring on an AC system is just getting basically as simple as it gets - just two hots to wire up and it doesn't even matter if you mix up the phasing. Good luck out there everyone! August Luminalt On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 8:37 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Enphase's early failure rate was ridiculous, but we are finding that once > the faulty M190's were swapped after the first few years, the ones that > didn't fail have been relatively solid. In other words, let's say > (unscientifically) 30% of the M190's on a job installed 10 years ago failed > in the first 3 years. After that, we had a VERY low failure rate on that > system. I can't remember the last time I replaced an M190, and we have a > lot of them floating around out there. In each successive generation (M215, > M250, IQ6, IQ7) we have seen progressively lower failure rates in the first > 1, 2, and 3 years, which points to a dramatic increase in initial > reliability. If history is a guide, the IQ series looks like 10 years from > now we will be calling it a huge success. Of course, only time will tell. > > Micro replacements are a nuisance, for sure, but we haven't 'lost' much > money on replacements. I have lost lots of money struggling through string > inverter replacements due to unknown complications (physical, electrical, > monitoring, etc). A micro swap is a known entity and minimal complexity. I > can send a minimally trained (lower cost) individual to handle it and deal > with the administrative (monitoring) part in the office. > > The bottom line is that I am doing far FEWER micro replacements today than > I did 6-7 years ago when I was maintaining less than 1/3 of the units I > have now under supervision. My impression is that if micro is going to > fail, it's going to fail early on. Let's hope I'm right. > > One last point... despite a couple of bumps in the road with service hold > times and warranty replacement waits, Enphase's customer service has been > second to none over the course of the last decade. Their front-line staff > are well trained and knowledgeable, and access to second-tier support has > been phenomenal. SE gives you the same runaround as Fronius (don't get me > started on IGs) and other string inverter manufacturers when an HD Wave > goes down (have to be on site, provide a bunch of mostly irrelevant voltage > readings, check fuses, looks for signs of burned components, and so on to > get warranty satisfaction). > > Jason > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 7:21 PM Kirk Herander wrote: > >> I gave up on Enphase a long time ago for the same reasons many of you are >> dumping on SE now. High replacement rate etc. Any of you in this biz longer >> than ten years knows how horrible the first several generations of Enphase >> was. So should I trust Enphase over SE now? Will you trust SE years from >> now if this board finds them acceptable again(over Enphase)? Just sayin' >> >> On 7/23/2020 6:30:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> Not to sounds like a Fanboy, but Enphase in a small commercial setting is >> a real option. Owners love the monitoring aspect, the serviceability, the >> warranty, etc. There is a good safety argument to be made. Replacing micros >> on a flat roof is usually a cakewalk if necessary. Dealing with >> roof-mounted equipment shading issues makes micros a good option if >> optimizers are off the table. >> >> I'm adding an 80kW Enphase IQ array to an existing M-series 70kW system >> very soon. Here's Phase 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvXyGiUlALw >> >> >> This one is 208Y/120. For 480V you're looking at a transformer, which >> changes the calculus. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:06 PM AE Solar >> wrote: >> >>> interested to know if folks are having issues with specific models or >>> it's all across the board? if it's all across the board, i (like jay) would >>> be interested to know what people are moving on towards. especially for >>> smaller commercial 3phase projects. >>> adam >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 11:57 AM MiJo Nels >>> wrote: >>> >>>> We also, have found this to be the case. Now I feel like I'm in a bad >>>> marriage with them. We consistantly wait longer than we are told for >>>> replacement product, constantly hearing the same repetitious verbiage from >>>> them "just wait a little longer, we'll be able to control your coffee maker >>>> with your inverter soon".. or the old "Q1 Q2 Q3" promises for equipment or >>>> to get thru beta testing.. .. I too. . . am "Done". . . >>>> >>>> Joe Nelson >>>> >>>> Project Manager C-46/C-10 >>>> Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation >>>> >>>> CSL# 868816 >>>> www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com >>>> >>>> 530-273-4422 (Office) >>>> >>>> 530-217-8385 (Cell) >>>> >>>>  >>>> >>>>     >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>>> behalf of Jay >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2020 7:47:31 AM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 >>>> hardware failures...moving on to another inverter. >>>> >>>> Hi Scot and others >>>> >>>> I’ve heard these horror stories about SE >>>> >>>> What is the best replacement for SE at this point? >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 5:57 AM, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> >>>> Time has finally come to move on from SolarEdge. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Now replacing the THIRD inverter for one customer alone that has the >>>> infamous 181/183 hardware failure error code again. First one replaced in >>>> Sept 2019. Second failure and RMA July 6th 2020, and now this third >>>> failure on that replacement inverter. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We have had 24 total RMAs at quick count and it is eating into our >>>> credibility. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Solar Edge provided a briefing to me about two months ago acknowledging >>>> that their manufacturing quality control issues bordered on a recall, but >>>> opted to stay silent and let the installers keep suffering for their >>>> materiel and design issues. I was advised that the batch of deficient >>>> inverters and their manufacture time frame meant I just needed to get >>>> through this summer…perhaps but not another summer ever like this. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No more. Au revoir, Solar Edge. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by >> Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change >> listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Jul 24 12:43:05 2020 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 10:43:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Moving HUP Solar ONE Batteries AKA "DOING THE BATTERY DANCE" Message-ID: <028501d661d9$82553cb0$86ffb610$@solarwork.com> For rolling thru a building, I bought a “safe mover”: $569 https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200673748_200673748 It has 2 end sets of turnable poly-urethane wheels, hydraulic jacks on both ends, & ratchet straps that connect one end with the other end. Rated at 3000#. Great for moving almost everything. You do have 4 point loads so if you are rolling over tile or stone floors I suggest laying down ¾: ply for dispersing the weight a bit. For getting down the road: $ cost custom built trailer… For narrow mountain roads & tight switchbacks - I built a narrow 3 ton trailer with an overhead Gannon I-Beam for a roller, & use a 2 ton chain fall to lift and roll the batteries off. The trailer has crank down jacks on each corner to stabilize the lift & transport while unloading. It will hold 4 of the smaller HUP Batteries & only 2 of the 2490 AHR/12 VDC cans. If anyone want pics let me know & I can either post or email direct. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 4:22 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas Chain hoist and muscle for the move. It's not easy. It can be hard to get them out of the steel case. Slow and careful... I haven't done this a lot, but the few times it was a dicey proposition. Jason Szumlanski On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:47 PM Rick Brown > wrote: Wrenches, Dilemma #1: I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set weighs in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The originals were placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going up. Dilemma #2: The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. Thanks, rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD0000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 45800 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Jul 24 12:59:45 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 12:59:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 hardware failures...moving on to another inverter. In-Reply-To: References: <088701d6605c$327d0480$97770d80$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: August, One quick note about your last sentence. I know you are talking about swapping black and red on an Enphase branch circuit, which is not a problem. However, landing L1 from string 1 with L2 from string 2 on a 2-pole breaker and vice-versa does matter. For correct OCPD operation, you need to land the pairs on the right breakers. I have seen this mistake before. Circuits that were expected to be de-energized still had one hot leg. Not good... On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 12:20 PM August Goers wrote: > We've installed lots of Enphase, SolarEdge, and the various string > inverters over the years. As far as Enphase goes, our experience is not too > far from what Jason described - we had thousands of the M190/M210 > generation installed and experienced a very high failure rate. Our failure > rate on those older systems seems to have stabilized. I think we're doing > maybe one Enphase micro replacement site call per month or so, which is > quite manageable. I do expect to continue to have a trickle of failures, > but they are now not too far out of line compared to our string inverter > failure rates (SMA/Fronious/ABB/Xantrex/Etc). > > We've been installing SolarEdge on our small and medium commercial system > for the past few years with success. I don't think we've had a single > failure, but we don't do a ton on commercial, we have 20 sites in our > SolarEdge portfolio. > > I think it's good to focus on features, price, reliability, service, > bankability, etc and continually reevaluate the companies and products on > the market. We have certainly stopped installing Enphase back in 2013 when > were seeing peak failures which was a good decision. But the newer > equipment has been solid. SMA, which had classically been our go-to string > inverter choice, just hasn't kept up with the market and their choices are > too complicated compared to the SunPower AC modules (with Enphase micros > built in) we're now installing. I'm sort of over DC systems for residential > projects, especially if thinking about the KISS model of trying to keep > everything as simple as possible. The wiring on an AC system is just > getting basically as simple as it gets - just two hots to wire up and it > doesn't even matter if you mix up the phasing. > > Good luck out there everyone! > > August > Luminalt > > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 8:37 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Enphase's early failure rate was ridiculous, but we are finding that once >> the faulty M190's were swapped after the first few years, the ones that >> didn't fail have been relatively solid. In other words, let's say >> (unscientifically) 30% of the M190's on a job installed 10 years ago failed >> in the first 3 years. After that, we had a VERY low failure rate on that >> system. I can't remember the last time I replaced an M190, and we have a >> lot of them floating around out there. In each successive generation (M215, >> M250, IQ6, IQ7) we have seen progressively lower failure rates in the first >> 1, 2, and 3 years, which points to a dramatic increase in initial >> reliability. If history is a guide, the IQ series looks like 10 years from >> now we will be calling it a huge success. Of course, only time will tell. >> >> Micro replacements are a nuisance, for sure, but we haven't 'lost' much >> money on replacements. I have lost lots of money struggling through string >> inverter replacements due to unknown complications (physical, electrical, >> monitoring, etc). A micro swap is a known entity and minimal complexity. I >> can send a minimally trained (lower cost) individual to handle it and deal >> with the administrative (monitoring) part in the office. >> >> The bottom line is that I am doing far FEWER micro replacements today >> than I did 6-7 years ago when I was maintaining less than 1/3 of the units >> I have now under supervision. My impression is that if micro is going to >> fail, it's going to fail early on. Let's hope I'm right. >> >> One last point... despite a couple of bumps in the road with service hold >> times and warranty replacement waits, Enphase's customer service has been >> second to none over the course of the last decade. Their front-line staff >> are well trained and knowledgeable, and access to second-tier support has >> been phenomenal. SE gives you the same runaround as Fronius (don't get me >> started on IGs) and other string inverter manufacturers when an HD Wave >> goes down (have to be on site, provide a bunch of mostly irrelevant voltage >> readings, check fuses, looks for signs of burned components, and so on to >> get warranty satisfaction). >> >> Jason >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 7:21 PM Kirk Herander wrote: >> >>> I gave up on Enphase a long time ago for the same reasons many of you >>> are dumping on SE now. High replacement rate etc. Any of you in this biz >>> longer than ten years knows how horrible the first several generations of >>> Enphase was. So should I trust Enphase over SE now? Will you trust SE years >>> from now if this board finds them acceptable again(over Enphase)? Just >>> sayin' >>> >>> On 7/23/2020 6:30:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> Not to sounds like a Fanboy, but Enphase in a small commercial setting >>> is a real option. Owners love the monitoring aspect, the serviceability, >>> the warranty, etc. There is a good safety argument to be made. Replacing >>> micros on a flat roof is usually a cakewalk if necessary. Dealing with >>> roof-mounted equipment shading issues makes micros a good option if >>> optimizers are off the table. >>> >>> I'm adding an 80kW Enphase IQ array to an existing M-series 70kW system >>> very soon. Here's Phase 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvXyGiUlALw >>> >>> >>> This one is 208Y/120. For 480V you're looking at a transformer, which >>> changes the calculus. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:06 PM AE Solar >>> wrote: >>> >>>> interested to know if folks are having issues with specific models or >>>> it's all across the board? if it's all across the board, i (like jay) would >>>> be interested to know what people are moving on towards. especially for >>>> smaller commercial 3phase projects. >>>> adam >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 11:57 AM MiJo Nels >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> We also, have found this to be the case. Now I feel like I'm in a bad >>>>> marriage with them. We consistantly wait longer than we are told for >>>>> replacement product, constantly hearing the same repetitious verbiage from >>>>> them "just wait a little longer, we'll be able to control your coffee maker >>>>> with your inverter soon".. or the old "Q1 Q2 Q3" promises for equipment or >>>>> to get thru beta testing.. .. I too. . . am "Done". . . >>>>> >>>>> Joe Nelson >>>>> >>>>> Project Manager C-46/C-10 >>>>> Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation >>>>> >>>>> CSL# 868816 >>>>> www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com >>>>> >>>>> 530-273-4422 (Office) >>>>> >>>>> 530-217-8385 (Cell) >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> >>>>>     >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>>>> behalf of Jay >>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2020 7:47:31 AM >>>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 >>>>> hardware failures...moving on to another inverter. >>>>> >>>>> Hi Scot and others >>>>> >>>>> I’ve heard these horror stories about SE >>>>> >>>>> What is the best replacement for SE at this point? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> Jay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 5:57 AM, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> >>>>> Time has finally come to move on from SolarEdge. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Now replacing the THIRD inverter for one customer alone that has the >>>>> infamous 181/183 hardware failure error code again. First one replaced in >>>>> Sept 2019. Second failure and RMA July 6th 2020, and now this third >>>>> failure on that replacement inverter. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We have had 24 total RMAs at quick count and it is eating into our >>>>> credibility. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Solar Edge provided a briefing to me about two months ago >>>>> acknowledging that their manufacturing quality control issues bordered on a >>>>> recall, but opted to stay silent and let the installers keep suffering for >>>>> their materiel and design issues. I was advised that the batch of deficient >>>>> inverters and their manufacture time frame meant I just needed to get >>>>> through this summer…perhaps but not another summer ever like this. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No more. Au revoir, Solar Edge. >>>>> >>>>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jul 24 12:49:19 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 09:49:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 hardware failures...moving on to another inverter. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Statistically it seems unlikely that installers who have both installed a lot of the same equipment would have such different results. I’m wondering if there are some common issues with SE failures. We’ve heard now from numerous installers with lots of failures and others with almost none. Believing both points to possible design or environmental issues. For example failures might be high on high PV dc/optimizer ratio or dc/ac ratio and low the other way. Or extreme hot, cold or environmental temperature swing environments Maybe it’s just which version/rev optimizer or inverter. Jay Peltz power > On Jul 24, 2020, at 9:20 AM, August Goers wrote: > >  > We've installed lots of Enphase, SolarEdge, and the various string inverters over the years. As far as Enphase goes, our experience is not too far from what Jason described - we had thousands of the M190/M210 generation installed and experienced a very high failure rate. Our failure rate on those older systems seems to have stabilized. I think we're doing maybe one Enphase micro replacement site call per month or so, which is quite manageable. I do expect to continue to have a trickle of failures, but they are now not too far out of line compared to our string inverter failure rates (SMA/Fronious/ABB/Xantrex/Etc). > > We've been installing SolarEdge on our small and medium commercial system for the past few years with success. I don't think we've had a single failure, but we don't do a ton on commercial, we have 20 sites in our SolarEdge portfolio. > > I think it's good to focus on features, price, reliability, service, bankability, etc and continually reevaluate the companies and products on the market. We have certainly stopped installing Enphase back in 2013 when were seeing peak failures which was a good decision. But the newer equipment has been solid. SMA, which had classically been our go-to string inverter choice, just hasn't kept up with the market and their choices are too complicated compared to the SunPower AC modules (with Enphase micros built in) we're now installing. I'm sort of over DC systems for residential projects, especially if thinking about the KISS model of trying to keep everything as simple as possible. The wiring on an AC system is just getting basically as simple as it gets - just two hots to wire up and it doesn't even matter if you mix up the phasing. > > Good luck out there everyone! > > August > Luminalt > > >> On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 8:37 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> Enphase's early failure rate was ridiculous, but we are finding that once the faulty M190's were swapped after the first few years, the ones that didn't fail have been relatively solid. In other words, let's say (unscientifically) 30% of the M190's on a job installed 10 years ago failed in the first 3 years. After that, we had a VERY low failure rate on that system. I can't remember the last time I replaced an M190, and we have a lot of them floating around out there. In each successive generation (M215, M250, IQ6, IQ7) we have seen progressively lower failure rates in the first 1, 2, and 3 years, which points to a dramatic increase in initial reliability. If history is a guide, the IQ series looks like 10 years from now we will be calling it a huge success. Of course, only time will tell. >> >> Micro replacements are a nuisance, for sure, but we haven't 'lost' much money on replacements. I have lost lots of money struggling through string inverter replacements due to unknown complications (physical, electrical, monitoring, etc). A micro swap is a known entity and minimal complexity. I can send a minimally trained (lower cost) individual to handle it and deal with the administrative (monitoring) part in the office. >> >> The bottom line is that I am doing far FEWER micro replacements today than I did 6-7 years ago when I was maintaining less than 1/3 of the units I have now under supervision. My impression is that if micro is going to fail, it's going to fail early on. Let's hope I'm right. >> >> One last point... despite a couple of bumps in the road with service hold times and warranty replacement waits, Enphase's customer service has been second to none over the course of the last decade. Their front-line staff are well trained and knowledgeable, and access to second-tier support has been phenomenal. SE gives you the same runaround as Fronius (don't get me started on IGs) and other string inverter manufacturers when an HD Wave goes down (have to be on site, provide a bunch of mostly irrelevant voltage readings, check fuses, looks for signs of burned components, and so on to get warranty satisfaction). >> >> Jason >> >> >>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 7:21 PM Kirk Herander wrote: >>> I gave up on Enphase a long time ago for the same reasons many of you are dumping on SE now. High replacement rate etc. Any of you in this biz longer than ten years knows how horrible the first several generations of Enphase was. So should I trust Enphase over SE now? Will you trust SE years from now if this board finds them acceptable again(over Enphase)? Just sayin' >>>> On 7/23/2020 6:30:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>> >>>> Not to sounds like a Fanboy, but Enphase in a small commercial setting is a real option. Owners love the monitoring aspect, the serviceability, the warranty, etc. There is a good safety argument to be made. Replacing micros on a flat roof is usually a cakewalk if necessary. Dealing with roof-mounted equipment shading issues makes micros a good option if optimizers are off the table. >>>> >>>> I'm adding an 80kW Enphase IQ array to an existing M-series 70kW system very soon. Here's Phase 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvXyGiUlALw >>>> >>>> This one is 208Y/120. For 480V you're looking at a transformer, which changes the calculus. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:06 PM AE Solar wrote: >>>>> interested to know if folks are having issues with specific models or it's all across the board? if it's all across the board, i (like jay) would be interested to know what people are moving on towards. especially for smaller commercial 3phase projects. >>>>> adam >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 11:57 AM MiJo Nels wrote: >>>>>> We also, have found this to be the case. Now I feel like I'm in a bad marriage with them. We consistantly wait longer than we are told for replacement product, constantly hearing the same repetitious verbiage from them "just wait a little longer, we'll be able to control your coffee maker with your inverter soon".. or the old "Q1 Q2 Q3" promises for equipment or to get thru beta testing.. .. I too. . . am "Done". . . >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe Nelson >>>>>> >>>>>> Project Manager C-46/C-10 >>>>>> Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation >>>>>> >>>>>> CSL# 868816 >>>>>> www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com >>>>>> 530-273-4422 (Office) >>>>>> >>>>>> 530-217-8385 (Cell) >>>>>> >>>>>>  >>>>>> >>>>>>     >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jay >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 7:47:31 AM >>>>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 hardware failures...moving on to another inverter. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Scot and others >>>>>> >>>>>> I’ve heard these horror stories about SE >>>>>> >>>>>> What is the best replacement for SE at this point? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks >>>>>> >>>>>> Jay >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 5:57 AM, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>  >>>>>>> Time has finally come to move on from SolarEdge. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now replacing the THIRD inverter for one customer alone that has the infamous 181/183 hardware failure error code again. First one replaced in Sept 2019. Second failure and RMA July 6th 2020, and now this third failure on that replacement inverter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We have had 24 total RMAs at quick count and it is eating into our credibility. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Solar Edge provided a briefing to me about two months ago acknowledging that their manufacturing quality control issues bordered on a recall, but opted to stay silent and let the installers keep suffering for their materiel and design issues. I was advised that the batch of deficient inverters and their manufacture time frame meant I just needed to get through this summer…perhaps but not another summer ever like this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No more. Au revoir, Solar Edge. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at sesre.com Fri Jul 24 13:15:19 2020 From: matt at sesre.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 17:15:19 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 hardware failures...moving on to another inverter. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay, We’ve had lots of SE failures. Maybe not hundreds. Certainly dozens. Every level from small residential inverters to their 33 kW 480V units. And optimizers, though far fewer optimizers on a percentage basis. From an inverter perspective, the location doesn’t seem to have mattered much. Cool basements or hot rooftops have both seen failures for us. Internal component failures where we are first asked to verify correct voltage settings is the error I have experienced most frequently as of late. I also remember a couple tricky failures where the inverter started power limiting in the afternoons and we assumed it was overheating only to find out it was a manufacturing defect (which may have been causing it to overheat). I thought SE had relayed failures to be a result of moving factories to avoid tariffs and QC failings at the new sites. They portray it as a solvable problem and I have some sympathy. Our customers that are on their third inverter in as many months are understandably skeptical. Matt From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Friday, July 24, 2020 12:49 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 hardware failures...moving on to another inverter. Statistically it seems unlikely that installers who have both installed a lot of the same equipment would have such different results. I’m wondering if there are some common issues with SE failures. We’ve heard now from numerous installers with lots of failures and others with almost none. Believing both points to possible design or environmental issues. For example failures might be high on high PV dc/optimizer ratio or dc/ac ratio and low the other way. Or extreme hot, cold or environmental temperature swing environments Maybe it’s just which version/rev optimizer or inverter. Jay Peltz power On Jul 24, 2020, at 9:20 AM, August Goers > wrote:  We've installed lots of Enphase, SolarEdge, and the various string inverters over the years. As far as Enphase goes, our experience is not too far from what Jason described - we had thousands of the M190/M210 generation installed and experienced a very high failure rate. Our failure rate on those older systems seems to have stabilized. I think we're doing maybe one Enphase micro replacement site call per month or so, which is quite manageable. I do expect to continue to have a trickle of failures, but they are now not too far out of line compared to our string inverter failure rates (SMA/Fronious/ABB/Xantrex/Etc). We've been installing SolarEdge on our small and medium commercial system for the past few years with success. I don't think we've had a single failure, but we don't do a ton on commercial, we have 20 sites in our SolarEdge portfolio. I think it's good to focus on features, price, reliability, service, bankability, etc and continually reevaluate the companies and products on the market. We have certainly stopped installing Enphase back in 2013 when were seeing peak failures which was a good decision. But the newer equipment has been solid. SMA, which had classically been our go-to string inverter choice, just hasn't kept up with the market and their choices are too complicated compared to the SunPower AC modules (with Enphase micros built in) we're now installing. I'm sort of over DC systems for residential projects, especially if thinking about the KISS model of trying to keep everything as simple as possible. The wiring on an AC system is just getting basically as simple as it gets - just two hots to wire up and it doesn't even matter if you mix up the phasing. Good luck out there everyone! August Luminalt On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 8:37 AM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: Enphase's early failure rate was ridiculous, but we are finding that once the faulty M190's were swapped after the first few years, the ones that didn't fail have been relatively solid. In other words, let's say (unscientifically) 30% of the M190's on a job installed 10 years ago failed in the first 3 years. After that, we had a VERY low failure rate on that system. I can't remember the last time I replaced an M190, and we have a lot of them floating around out there. In each successive generation (M215, M250, IQ6, IQ7) we have seen progressively lower failure rates in the first 1, 2, and 3 years, which points to a dramatic increase in initial reliability. If history is a guide, the IQ series looks like 10 years from now we will be calling it a huge success. Of course, only time will tell. Micro replacements are a nuisance, for sure, but we haven't 'lost' much money on replacements. I have lost lots of money struggling through string inverter replacements due to unknown complications (physical, electrical, monitoring, etc). A micro swap is a known entity and minimal complexity. I can send a minimally trained (lower cost) individual to handle it and deal with the administrative (monitoring) part in the office. The bottom line is that I am doing far FEWER micro replacements today than I did 6-7 years ago when I was maintaining less than 1/3 of the units I have now under supervision. My impression is that if micro is going to fail, it's going to fail early on. Let's hope I'm right. One last point... despite a couple of bumps in the road with service hold times and warranty replacement waits, Enphase's customer service has been second to none over the course of the last decade. Their front-line staff are well trained and knowledgeable, and access to second-tier support has been phenomenal. SE gives you the same runaround as Fronius (don't get me started on IGs) and other string inverter manufacturers when an HD Wave goes down (have to be on site, provide a bunch of mostly irrelevant voltage readings, check fuses, looks for signs of burned components, and so on to get warranty satisfaction). Jason On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 7:21 PM Kirk Herander > wrote: I gave up on Enphase a long time ago for the same reasons many of you are dumping on SE now. High replacement rate etc. Any of you in this biz longer than ten years knows how horrible the first several generations of Enphase was. So should I trust Enphase over SE now? Will you trust SE years from now if this board finds them acceptable again(over Enphase)? Just sayin' On 7/23/2020 6:30:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: Not to sounds like a Fanboy, but Enphase in a small commercial setting is a real option. Owners love the monitoring aspect, the serviceability, the warranty, etc. There is a good safety argument to be made. Replacing micros on a flat roof is usually a cakewalk if necessary. Dealing with roof-mounted equipment shading issues makes micros a good option if optimizers are off the table. I'm adding an 80kW Enphase IQ array to an existing M-series 70kW system very soon. Here's Phase 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvXyGiUlALw This one is 208Y/120. For 480V you're looking at a transformer, which changes the calculus. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:06 PM AE Solar > wrote: interested to know if folks are having issues with specific models or it's all across the board? if it's all across the board, i (like jay) would be interested to know what people are moving on towards. especially for smaller commercial 3phase projects. adam On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 11:57 AM MiJo Nels > wrote: We also, have found this to be the case. Now I feel like I'm in a bad marriage with them. We consistantly wait longer than we are told for replacement product, constantly hearing the same repetitious verbiage from them "just wait a little longer, we'll be able to control your coffee maker with your inverter soon".. or the old "Q1 Q2 Q3" promises for equipment or to get thru beta testing.. .. I too. . . am "Done". . . Joe Nelson Project Manager C-46/C-10 Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation CSL# 868816 www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com 530-273-4422 (Office) 530-217-8385 (Cell)      ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Jay > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 7:47:31 AM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 hardware failures...moving on to another inverter. Hi Scot and others I’ve heard these horror stories about SE What is the best replacement for SE at this point? Thanks Jay On Jul 23, 2020, at 5:57 AM, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote:  Time has finally come to move on from SolarEdge. Now replacing the THIRD inverter for one customer alone that has the infamous 181/183 hardware failure error code again. First one replaced in Sept 2019. Second failure and RMA July 6th 2020, and now this third failure on that replacement inverter. We have had 24 total RMAs at quick count and it is eating into our credibility. Solar Edge provided a briefing to me about two months ago acknowledging that their manufacturing quality control issues bordered on a recall, but opted to stay silent and let the installers keep suffering for their materiel and design issues. I was advised that the batch of deficient inverters and their manufacture time frame meant I just needed to get through this summer…perhaps but not another summer ever like this. No more. Au revoir, Solar Edge. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Jul 24 14:01:34 2020 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 12:01:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas In-Reply-To: <363DE4B6-F5C0-48C7-A19A-7869837867DF@solshineenergyalternatives.com> References: <15645927-9915-404A-993A-8EF81628D6E5@sindelarsolar.com> <363DE4B6-F5C0-48C7-A19A-7869837867DF@solshineenergyalternatives.com> Message-ID: <02a801d661e4$78dc0050$6a9400f0$@solarwork.com> Hups do come with a battery pulling tether or did come with one. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Rick Brown Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 5:25 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas Allen, Did you use the battery terminals to pull the cells? I don’t see any other way to grab the cells. Great idea on the engine hoist! rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:03 PM, Allan Sindelar > wrote:  Rick: 1) consider renting or buying an engine hoist to pull out the individual cells, and lowering each onto a hand truck for transport to your truck. I have done this several times - it’s actually not that difficult with a crew of two or three. Northwest Energy Storage (www.solarone com, I think) supplies a short, heavy nylon strap with clevises at each end for raising and lowering each cell. You might contact them to purchase one. At one remote site, the client suggested that I buy a cheap engine hoist from Harbor Freight, as it would be cheaper than renting a professional one. 2) the older Trace SW series is early technology in regards to its sell efficiency, because of the lack of what was dubbed ‘silent sell’. The general number from when it was about the only game in town was about 55%. I would suggest upgrading to a modern unit if it’s primarily used for selling back. Allan Sindelar, Sindelar Solar On Jul 23, 2020, at 3:47 PM, Rick Brown > wrote: Wrenches, Dilemma #1: I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set weighs in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The originals were placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going up. Dilemma #2: The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. Thanks, rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brettbartmasser at gmail.com Fri Jul 24 15:38:42 2020 From: brettbartmasser at gmail.com (Brett Bartmasser) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 12:38:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 hardware failures...moving on to another inverter. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ours were all early versions of their HD Wave inverter, strictly residential. All of our earlier A series have been quite reliable. Have not had issues with the optimizers themselves. Since we stopped using them we don't know if the newer(screenless) versions are any better. Hasn't been worth the test. Nearly 100% of our HD waves failed. On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 10:15 AM Matt Partymiller wrote: > Jay, > > > > We’ve had lots of SE failures. Maybe not hundreds. Certainly dozens. > Every level from small residential inverters to their 33 kW 480V units. > And optimizers, though far fewer optimizers on a percentage basis. From an > inverter perspective, the location doesn’t seem to have mattered much. > Cool basements or hot rooftops have both seen failures for us. Internal > component failures where we are first asked to verify correct voltage > settings is the error I have experienced most frequently as of late. I > also remember a couple tricky failures where the inverter started power > limiting in the afternoons and we assumed it was overheating only to find > out it was a manufacturing defect (which may have been causing it to > overheat). > > > > I thought SE had relayed failures to be a result of moving factories to > avoid tariffs and QC failings at the new sites. They portray it as a > solvable problem and I have some sympathy. Our customers that are on their > third inverter in as many months are understandably skeptical. > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jay > *Sent:* Friday, July 24, 2020 12:49 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 > hardware failures...moving on to another inverter. > > > > > > Statistically it seems unlikely that installers who have both installed a > lot of the same equipment would have such different results. > > > > > > I’m wondering if there are some common issues with SE failures. > > We’ve heard now from numerous installers with lots of failures and others > with almost none. > > Believing both points to possible design or environmental issues. > > > > For example failures might be high on high PV dc/optimizer ratio or dc/ac > ratio and low the other way. > > > > Or extreme hot, cold or environmental temperature swing environments > > > > Maybe it’s just which version/rev optimizer or inverter. > > > > > > Jay > > > > Peltz power > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 24, 2020, at 9:20 AM, August Goers wrote: > >  > > We've installed lots of Enphase, SolarEdge, and the various string > inverters over the years. As far as Enphase goes, our experience is not too > far from what Jason described - we had thousands of the M190/M210 > generation installed and experienced a very high failure rate. Our failure > rate on those older systems seems to have stabilized. I think we're doing > maybe one Enphase micro replacement site call per month or so, which is > quite manageable. I do expect to continue to have a trickle of failures, > but they are now not too far out of line compared to our string inverter > failure rates (SMA/Fronious/ABB/Xantrex/Etc). > > > > We've been installing SolarEdge on our small and medium commercial system > for the past few years with success. I don't think we've had a single > failure, but we don't do a ton on commercial, we have 20 sites in our > SolarEdge portfolio. > > > > I think it's good to focus on features, price, reliability, service, > bankability, etc and continually reevaluate the companies and products on > the market. We have certainly stopped installing Enphase back in 2013 when > were seeing peak failures which was a good decision. But the newer > equipment has been solid. SMA, which had classically been our go-to string > inverter choice, just hasn't kept up with the market and their choices are > too complicated compared to the SunPower AC modules (with Enphase micros > built in) we're now installing. I'm sort of over DC systems for residential > projects, especially if thinking about the KISS model of trying to keep > everything as simple as possible. The wiring on an AC system is just > getting basically as simple as it gets - just two hots to wire up and it > doesn't even matter if you mix up the phasing. > > > > Good luck out there everyone! > > > > August > > Luminalt > > > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 8:37 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > Enphase's early failure rate was ridiculous, but we are finding that once > the faulty M190's were swapped after the first few years, the ones that > didn't fail have been relatively solid. In other words, let's say > (unscientifically) 30% of the M190's on a job installed 10 years ago failed > in the first 3 years. After that, we had a VERY low failure rate on that > system. I can't remember the last time I replaced an M190, and we have a > lot of them floating around out there. In each successive generation (M215, > M250, IQ6, IQ7) we have seen progressively lower failure rates in the first > 1, 2, and 3 years, which points to a dramatic increase in initial > reliability. If history is a guide, the IQ series looks like 10 years from > now we will be calling it a huge success. Of course, only time will tell. > > > > Micro replacements are a nuisance, for sure, but we haven't 'lost' much > money on replacements. I have lost lots of money struggling through string > inverter replacements due to unknown complications (physical, electrical, > monitoring, etc). A micro swap is a known entity and minimal complexity. I > can send a minimally trained (lower cost) individual to handle it and deal > with the administrative (monitoring) part in the office. > > > > The bottom line is that I am doing far FEWER micro replacements today than > I did 6-7 years ago when I was maintaining less than 1/3 of the units I > have now under supervision. My impression is that if micro is going to > fail, it's going to fail early on. Let's hope I'm right. > > > > One last point... despite a couple of bumps in the road with service hold > times and warranty replacement waits, Enphase's customer service has been > second to none over the course of the last decade. Their front-line staff > are well trained and knowledgeable, and access to second-tier support has > been phenomenal. SE gives you the same runaround as Fronius (don't get me > started on IGs) and other string inverter manufacturers when an HD Wave > goes down (have to be on site, provide a bunch of mostly irrelevant voltage > readings, check fuses, looks for signs of burned components, and so on to > get warranty satisfaction). > > > > Jason > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 7:21 PM Kirk Herander wrote: > > I gave up on Enphase a long time ago for the same reasons many of you are > dumping on SE now. High replacement rate etc. Any of you in this biz longer > than ten years knows how horrible the first several generations of Enphase > was. So should I trust Enphase over SE now? Will you trust SE years from > now if this board finds them acceptable again(over Enphase)? Just sayin' > > On 7/23/2020 6:30:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > Not to sounds like a Fanboy, but Enphase in a small commercial setting is > a real option. Owners love the monitoring aspect, the serviceability, the > warranty, etc. There is a good safety argument to be made. Replacing micros > on a flat roof is usually a cakewalk if necessary. Dealing with > roof-mounted equipment shading issues makes micros a good option if > optimizers are off the table. > > > > I'm adding an 80kW Enphase IQ array to an existing M-series 70kW system > very soon. Here's Phase 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvXyGiUlALw > > > > > This one is 208Y/120. For 480V you're looking at a transformer, which > changes the calculus. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:06 PM AE Solar > wrote: > > interested to know if folks are having issues with specific models or it's > all across the board? if it's all across the board, i (like jay) would be > interested to know what people are moving on towards. especially for > smaller commercial 3phase projects. > > adam > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 11:57 AM MiJo Nels > wrote: > > We also, have found this to be the case. Now I feel like I'm in a bad > marriage with them. We consistantly wait longer than we are told for > replacement product, constantly hearing the same repetitious verbiage from > them "just wait a little longer, we'll be able to control your coffee maker > with your inverter soon".. or the old "Q1 Q2 Q3" promises for equipment or > to get thru beta testing.. .. I too. . . am "Done". . . > > Joe Nelson > > Project Manager C-46/C-10 > > Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation > > CSL# 868816 > > www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com > > > 530-273-4422 (Office) > > 530-217-8385 (Cell) > >  > >     > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Jay > *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2020 7:47:31 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 > hardware failures...moving on to another inverter. > > > > Hi Scot and others > > > > I’ve heard these horror stories about SE > > > > What is the best replacement for SE at this point? > > > > Thanks > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 23, 2020, at 5:57 AM, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: > >  > > Time has finally come to move on from SolarEdge. > > > > Now replacing the THIRD inverter for one customer alone that has the > infamous 181/183 hardware failure error code again. First one replaced in > Sept 2019. Second failure and RMA July 6th 2020, and now this third > failure on that replacement inverter. > > > > We have had 24 total RMAs at quick count and it is eating into our > credibility. > > > > Solar Edge provided a briefing to me about two months ago acknowledging > that their manufacturing quality control issues bordered on a recall, but > opted to stay silent and let the installers keep suffering for their > materiel and design issues. I was advised that the batch of deficient > inverters and their manufacture time frame meant I just needed to get > through this summer…perhaps but not another summer ever like this. > > > > No more. Au revoir, Solar Edge. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood > Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change > listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jul 24 20:30:04 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 17:30:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] lithium battery cost In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E199056-C906-40C7-A1B6-78B48500096A@gmail.com> I want to ask about the cost of lithium batteries. Tesla seems to be telling the market that LFP batteries are way cheaper than NMC, and that they are switching to LFP, at least in China. From what I see in the marketplace that’s a lie. So I want to know from the lithium experts what they make of this. Should we expect LFP to become a lot cheaper? Because if the answer is yes, then I will tell all my customers to wait a bit. Thanks in advance, jay Peltz power From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jul 24 23:55:47 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 20:55:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] lithium battery cost In-Reply-To: <3E199056-C906-40C7-A1B6-78B48500096A@gmail.com> References: <3E199056-C906-40C7-A1B6-78B48500096A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches I would like to see the LFP price come down in price, I have seen some cheap POS's coming out of China $3800 for a 10kWhr battery but they have very little surge capability so the LBCO shuts down the inverter, Blue Planet seems to be holding on their price, Have not heard anything different from Simplify or the others I know about, you would think competition would drive pricing down but that does not seem to be the case with any real work horse battery only the Chinese piles I see out there. Jerry On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 8:22 PM jay wrote: > I want to ask about the cost of lithium batteries. > > Tesla seems to be telling the market that LFP batteries are way cheaper > than NMC, and that they are switching to LFP, at least in China. > > From what I see in the marketplace that’s a lie. > > So I want to know from the lithium experts what they make of this. > Should we expect LFP to become a lot cheaper? > > Because if the answer is yes, then I will tell all my customers to wait a > bit. > > Thanks in advance, > > jay > > Peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Sat Jul 25 02:00:03 2020 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 01:00:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop Conduit Message-ID: Wrenches, I noticed a couple good threads ("Cable tray" / "PV Wiring methods") about this topic back in 2013, but I haven't seen much discussion since then. Given some of the advances in PV equipment since then (improved ground-fault protection, arc-fault circuit protection, rapid shutdown), I am curious about current attitudes toward using metallic conduit/cable tray on rooftops. I am primarily interested in hearing about flat commercial rooftops but imagine some of the same conventions may apply for residential rooftops. What are you using for long (or short) dc circuit runs on rooftops? Is cable tray still considered safer? Are there situations where conduit may be merited? If so, is RMC favored over EMT? Do best practices change when considering ac circuits (rather than dc)? Back in 2013 Bill Brooks said that PV installers are the "crazy people" installing conduit on rooftops, and he prophesied that using cable tray on roofs would "become common practice soon." Where do we stand now? -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Jul 25 10:42:39 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 07:42:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] lithium battery cost In-Reply-To: References: <3E199056-C906-40C7-A1B6-78B48500096A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4036f97a6db51982a522235aeff47f93@127.0.0.1> My cost for Discover AES has come down 5% from a year ago. L16 AGM are still 2 times the cost of L16 flooded which move around in cost normally with the price of lead. So, I would say LFP is a bit more than 2X flooded with a big however. The comparison is tilted because the 6.65 kwh (useable) AES is being compared with a 400 ah flooded (20kwh ">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 24 Jul 2020 20:55:47 -0700, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches I would like to see the LFP price come down in price, I have seen some cheap POS's coming out of China $3800 for a 10kWhr battery but they have very little surge capability so the LBCO shuts down the inverter, Blue Planet seems to be holding on their price, Have not heard anything different from Simplify or the others I know about, you would think competition would drive pricing down but that does not seem to be the case with any real work horse battery only the Chinese piles I see out there. Jerry On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 8:22 PM jay wrote: I want to ask about the cost of lithium batteries. Tesla seems to be telling the market that LFP batteries are way cheaper than NMC, and that they are switching to LFP, at least in China. From what I see in the marketplace that's a lie. So I want to know from the lithium experts what they make of this. Should we expect LFP to become a lot cheaper? Because if the answer is yes, then I will tell all my customers to wait a bit. Thanks in advance, jay Peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [8] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com [4] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Jul 25 19:23:25 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 16:23:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop Conduit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Looking at residential installations l do not see cable trays becoming common place in part do to cost and visual appearance. Commercial is where trays work for home runs, feeders to big commercial combines is common place. But they are not pretty by any stretch. I have used aluminum unistrut as trays on smaller arrays using the crosses and T's then their covers Jerry On Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 11:00 PM Corey Shalanski wrote: > Wrenches, > > I noticed a couple good threads ("Cable tray" / "PV Wiring methods") about > this topic back in 2013, but I haven't seen much discussion since then. > Given some of the advances in PV equipment since then (improved > ground-fault protection, arc-fault circuit protection, rapid shutdown), I > am curious about current attitudes toward using metallic conduit/cable tray > on rooftops. I am primarily interested in hearing about flat commercial > rooftops but imagine some of the same conventions may apply for residential > rooftops. > > What are you using for long (or short) dc circuit runs on rooftops? Is > cable tray still considered safer? Are there situations where conduit may > be merited? If so, is RMC favored over EMT? > > Do best practices change when considering ac circuits (rather than dc)? > > Back in 2013 Bill Brooks said that PV installers are the "crazy people" > installing conduit on rooftops, and he prophesied that using cable tray on > roofs would "become common practice soon." Where do we stand now? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Sun Jul 26 19:48:59 2020 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 19:48:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop Conduit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6DE98B6E-6B2D-4152-8CE9-573304D6F8DA@sunwindpowerinc.com> First time posting so I hope I’m doing this right. We have been using a product called RayTray on projects in the 20-100kW range for a few years now. It’s basically a white plastic (RPVC) extrusion tray with a cap that builds out quick and does a nice job of protecting wires from sunlight. Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE SunWind Power Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 25, 2020, at 7:23 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > >  > Wrenches > Looking at residential installations l do not see cable trays becoming common place in part do to cost and visual appearance. > Commercial is where trays work for home runs, feeders to big commercial combines is common place. But they are not pretty by any stretch. I have used aluminum unistrut as trays on smaller arrays using the crosses and T's then their covers > Jerry > > >> On Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 11:00 PM Corey Shalanski wrote: >> Wrenches, >> >> I noticed a couple good threads ("Cable tray" / "PV Wiring methods") about this topic back in 2013, but I haven't seen much discussion since then. Given some of the advances in PV equipment since then (improved ground-fault protection, arc-fault circuit protection, rapid shutdown), I am curious about current attitudes toward using metallic conduit/cable tray on rooftops. I am primarily interested in hearing about flat commercial rooftops but imagine some of the same conventions may apply for residential rooftops. >> >> What are you using for long (or short) dc circuit runs on rooftops? Is cable tray still considered safer? Are there situations where conduit may be merited? If so, is RMC favored over EMT? >> >> Do best practices change when considering ac circuits (rather than dc)? >> >> Back in 2013 Bill Brooks said that PV installers are the "crazy people" installing conduit on rooftops, and he prophesied that using cable tray on roofs would "become common practice soon." Where do we stand now? >> >> -- >> Corey Shalanski >> Jah Light Solar >> Portland, Jamaica >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lawrencesteven at gmail.com Mon Jul 27 09:18:51 2020 From: lawrencesteven at gmail.com (Steven Lawrence) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:18:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop Conduit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I design a lot of grid tied projects, but I still do a rooftop about once or twice a year. All of them going back 7 years or so always used covered/vented cable tray. This includes homeruns, DC feeders, and all AC wiring. There still is some metallic conduit used (usually EMT) - a small jumper for a single wire, or the 3'-5' jump from the cable tray to the inverter or panelboard, or a single circuit output. Cable tray is a lot more cost effective and it has thermal expansion inherently built in so there's less concern about separation. You can also fill up a smaller area than conduit so it's a bit easier to walk around, although we have to install some stairs to go over some of the more crowded spots. It gets a little complicated and labeling is incredibly important as you don't want to mix DC and AC wires in the same tray, nor can you mix communication cables in it either. I haven't done once under the Jan 1 2019 rapid shutdown clause yet nor do I see one on the horizon anytime soon but I see no reason why cable tray still won't be used. > Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 01:00:03 -0500 > From: Corey Shalanski > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop Conduit > Message-ID: > Nhj27yOXvtu0O7gjeCpBPFFComMQ+mrxjLzEQvAp2Ti1g at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Wrenches, > > I noticed a couple good threads ("Cable tray" / "PV Wiring methods") about > this topic back in 2013, but I haven't seen much discussion since then. > Given some of the advances in PV equipment since then (improved > ground-fault protection, arc-fault circuit protection, rapid shutdown), I > am curious about current attitudes toward using metallic conduit/cable tray > on rooftops. I am primarily interested in hearing about flat commercial > rooftops but imagine some of the same conventions may apply for residential > rooftops. > > What are you using for long (or short) dc circuit runs on rooftops? Is > cable tray still considered safer? Are there situations where conduit may > be merited? If so, is RMC favored over EMT? > > Do best practices change when considering ac circuits (rather than dc)? > > Back in 2013 Bill Brooks said that PV installers are the "crazy people" > installing conduit on rooftops, and he prophesied that using cable tray on > roofs would "become common practice soon." Where do we stand now? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20200725/6cc8ada8/attachment-0001.html > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Jul 28 23:23:39 2020 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 20:23:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid French fried In-Reply-To: <9c7b1ed3-cb9c-a1cf-a252-15085c855422@psln.com> References: <9c7b1ed3-cb9c-a1cf-a252-15085c855422@psln.com> Message-ID: <190e5b72-b309-19fa-ae30-fd6b7e452943@psln.com> Hey Folks, Here in the Boonies of NE California one of my customers just had a fire (the Hog Fire) go through his property.  It spared his house but roasted the power shed.  I'll try to summarize: 2003 Outback FP2 (AC enclosure, 2 FXs,DC enclosure with related equipment), Classic 150 and 24V HUP Solar1 battery.  Roasted meaning the outside siding is ashes, the roof burned down to the charred rafters and some remaining drywall, the drywall that the FP2 was mounted to is all there.  The batteries are in an insulated plywood box all of which is 90% OK...Hydrocaps not melted, cables look fine, battery tops appear unaffected and took a charge from the GennyDeeCee.  Water was being applied to the outside of this structure during the event to reduce the damage and heat.             Removing both AC and DC enclosure covers and the FX valve covers revealed nothing melted or even warped, if it wasn't a little darkened inside from smoke, you might not know what had happened, the lexan covers on the inverter's AC output landings are in perfect condition.  The HUB and Classic, were closest to the greatest heat and we're considering them cooked.              Any experience with this before and what was discovered when firing the system back up?  Yes, naturally it's easy to say it should all be tossed and customer has to come up with $13,000+? for new equipment.  However this conclusion becomes more difficult in the face of not being covered by insurance, but we're listening to all comments. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jul 28 23:35:41 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 20:35:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid French fried In-Reply-To: <190e5b72-b309-19fa-ae30-fd6b7e452943@psln.com> References: <9c7b1ed3-cb9c-a1cf-a252-15085c855422@psln.com> <190e5b72-b309-19fa-ae30-fd6b7e452943@psln.com> Message-ID: Wrenches You fix what is bad and see where it goes, test the system components and see what happens, The Outbacks do get hot just in operation. I see the radians up to 140 degrees + while selling. Oh and by the way expect to pay more to get everything replaced Jerry On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 8:23 PM frenergy wrote: > > Hey Folks, > Here in the Boonies of NE California one of my customers just had a fire > (the Hog Fire) go through his property. It spared his house but roasted > the power shed. I'll try to summarize: 2003 Outback FP2 (AC enclosure, > 2 FXs,DC enclosure with related equipment), Classic 150 and 24V HUP > Solar1 battery. Roasted meaning the outside siding is ashes, the roof > burned down to the charred rafters and some remaining drywall, the > drywall that the FP2 was mounted to is all there. The batteries are in > an insulated plywood box all of which is 90% OK...Hydrocaps not melted, > cables look fine, battery tops appear unaffected and took a charge from > the GennyDeeCee. Water was being applied to the outside of this > structure during the event to reduce the damage and heat. > > Removing both AC and DC enclosure covers and the FX valve > covers revealed nothing melted or even warped, if it wasn't a little > darkened inside from smoke, you might not know what had happened, the > lexan covers on the inverter's AC output landings are in perfect > condition. The HUB and Classic, were closest to the greatest heat and > we're considering them cooked. > > Any experience with this before and what was discovered > when firing the system back up? Yes, naturally it's easy to say it > should all be tossed and customer has to come up with $13,000+? for new > equipment. However this conclusion becomes more difficult in the face > of not being covered by insurance, but we're listening to all comments. > > Thanks, > > Bill > > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Tue Jul 28 23:59:37 2020 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 21:59:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid French fried In-Reply-To: <190e5b72-b309-19fa-ae30-fd6b7e452943@psln.com> References: <9c7b1ed3-cb9c-a1cf-a252-15085c855422@psln.com> <190e5b72-b309-19fa-ae30-fd6b7e452943@psln.com> Message-ID: Bill; I've dealt with a couple of these after wildfires here in Colorado, in remote mountain areas with high proportions of off-grid systems. I totally get the insurance aspect, I'd say a majority of folks don't even really realize that even with insurance, the actual settlement will often be far less than they expected. I'd be most concerned about the wiring you *can't *see -- in conduit, through walls, transitioning from side of building to underground, etc. I would just replace all such wire runs with new wire, using the old, possibly compromised wire to pull with. Then I would isolate and test each component of the system separately, culminating in a system-wide check. You didn't mention the PV array, if it's ground or roof mount etc...PV modules are also sneaky at concealing fire and heat damage, and can still be operating within normal parameters, only to fail in the very near future--often into an arc fault situation within the array, where the Classic's AFCI protection won't help at all. If the fire was anywhere near the array, I'd pull each module, inspect and test individually, then reconnect into strings and test each string, etc. Best of luck! Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 9:23 PM frenergy wrote: > > Hey Folks, > Here in the Boonies of NE California one of my customers just had a fire > (the Hog Fire) go through his property. It spared his house but roasted > the power shed. I'll try to summarize: 2003 Outback FP2 (AC enclosure, > 2 FXs,DC enclosure with related equipment), Classic 150 and 24V HUP > Solar1 battery. Roasted meaning the outside siding is ashes, the roof > burned down to the charred rafters and some remaining drywall, the > drywall that the FP2 was mounted to is all there. The batteries are in > an insulated plywood box all of which is 90% OK...Hydrocaps not melted, > cables look fine, battery tops appear unaffected and took a charge from > the GennyDeeCee. Water was being applied to the outside of this > structure during the event to reduce the damage and heat. > > Removing both AC and DC enclosure covers and the FX valve > covers revealed nothing melted or even warped, if it wasn't a little > darkened inside from smoke, you might not know what had happened, the > lexan covers on the inverter's AC output landings are in perfect > condition. The HUB and Classic, were closest to the greatest heat and > we're considering them cooked. > > Any experience with this before and what was discovered > when firing the system back up? Yes, naturally it's easy to say it > should all be tossed and customer has to come up with $13,000+? for new > equipment. However this conclusion becomes more difficult in the face > of not being covered by insurance, but we're listening to all comments. > > Thanks, > > Bill > > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jul 29 11:44:13 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 08:44:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid French fried In-Reply-To: References: <9c7b1ed3-cb9c-a1cf-a252-15085c855422@psln.com> <190e5b72-b309-19fa-ae30-fd6b7e452943@psln.com> Message-ID: Many of these fires in the last 5 years! In fact more in the last 5 than 20 years before. I would not claim this on insurance if you want to keep it. We are in a spell now of losing insurance and self insuring in the west. By self insuring, I mean hardening to avoid this ever happening from wildfire. Use of sprinklers, high pressure pumps, and triple redundancy for everything. You can get this with a yacht mentality of keeping the systems going no matter what. Two battery banks each with their own inverter and a spare inverter. Gensets ! Tell the local fire people you have this and they are welcome to stay. Make them breakfast, whatever it takes. The owner has to want this ! He was lucky this time! Good Luck ! The worst month is here for wildfire! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 28 Jul 2020 21:59:37 -0600, Dan Fink wrote: Bill; I've dealt with a couple of these after wildfires here in Colorado, in remote mountain areas with high proportions of off-grid systems. I totally get the insurance aspect, I'd say a majority of folks don't even really realize that even with insurance, the actual settlement will often be far less than they expected. I'd be most concerned about the wiring you _can't _see -- in conduit, through walls, transitioning from side of building to underground, etc. I would just replace all such wire runs with new wire, using the old, possibly compromised wire to pull with. Then I would isolate and test each component of the system separately, culminating in a system-wide check. You didn't mention the PV array, if it's ground or roof mount etc...PV modules are also sneaky at concealing fire and heat damage, and can still be operating within normal parameters, only to fail in the very near future--often into an arc fault situation within the array, where the Classic's AFCI protection won't help at all. If the fire was anywhere near the array, I'd pull each module, inspect and test individually, then reconnect into strings and test each string, etc. Best of luck! Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor(tm) for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d [3]anbob88 at gmail.com [4] 970-672-4342 On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 9:23 PM frenergy wrote: Hey Folks, Here in the Boonies of NE California one of my customers just had a fire (the Hog Fire) go through his property. It spared his house but roasted the power shed. I'll try to summarize: 2003 Outback FP2 (AC enclosure, 2 FXs,DC enclosure with related equipment), Classic 150 and 24V HUP Solar1 battery. Roasted meaning the outside siding is ashes, the roof burned down to the charred rafters and some remaining drywall, the drywall that the FP2 was mounted to is all there. The batteries are in an insulated plywood box all of which is 90% OK...Hydrocaps not melted, cables look fine, battery tops appear unaffected and took a charge from the GennyDeeCee. Water was being applied to the outside of this structure during the event to reduce the damage and heat. Removing both AC and DC enclosure covers and the FX valve covers revealed nothing melted or even warped, if it wasn't a little darkened inside from smoke, you might not know what had happened, the lexan covers on the inverter's AC output landings are in perfect condition. The HUB and Classic, were closest to the greatest heat and we're considering them cooked. Any experience with this before and what was discovered when firing the system back up? Yes, naturally it's easy to say it should all be tossed and customer has to come up with $13,000+? for new equipment. However this conclusion becomes more difficult in the face of not being covered by insurance, but we're listening to all comments. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net [6] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com [4] mailto:anbob88 at gmail.com [5] mailto:frenergy at psln.com [6] http://www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 29 11:43:29 2020 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 08:43:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrosion resistant racks? Message-ID: NOAA has it that “In 2010, 123.3 million people, or 39 percent of the nation's population lived in counties directly on the shoreline. This population is expected to increase by 8% from 2010 to 2020.” And at least REC is partnering for floating marine arrays. They’ve certified their panels to be corrosion resistant to EU specs. Surely some manufacturer is building frames that are expected to last as long as the panels. Any advice? Thanks all. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jul 29 13:47:30 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 10:47:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrosion resistant racks? In-Reply-To: <20200729173138.8DB22108700@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20200729173138.8DB22108700@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <856394B7-0C28-4654-BA78-CCD77E492906@millersolar.com> Bill: There is a case study on our web site; MillerSolar.com. Hope it has useful information. William Miller www.millersolar.com > On Jul 29, 2020, at 10:31 AM, William Dorsett wrote: > >  > NOAA has it that “In 2010, 123.3 million people, or 39 percent of the nation's population lived in counties directly on the shoreline. This population is expected to increase by 8% from 2010 to 2020.” And at least REC is partnering for floating marine arrays. They’ve certified their panels to be corrosion resistant to EU specs. Surely some manufacturer is building frames that are expected to last as long as the panels. Any advice? > Thanks all. > > Bill Dorsett > Manhattan, KS. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Jul 29 14:52:10 2020 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 13:52:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarBridge microinverter troubleshooting and path ahead for stranded customers Message-ID: <011b01d665d9$5e4001d0$1ac00570$@solarcentex.com> Good day, We used to install SolarBridge microinverters when we first started. You know the deal."we've improved what Enphase started".and they were great - up until Sunpower bought it to meet market demand for an AC-module, then a reemergent Enphase bought it from a cash-strapped Sunpower, and promptly threw the whole kit and caboodle into the trash heap never to be seen again. But now we have some 25-year warrantied MIs not working, and the associated "Home Power Manager" monitoring device failed which means by-module monitoring is gone. These were AC-modules from ET Solar and that seemingly went bankrupt at some point, too and reemerged as a new ET Solar. A coupled of questions: Other than the seemingly infinite permutation of module strings it would take to narrow down inop MIs, does anyone have techniques or tips on how to identify individual faulty MIs? Did anybody else install SolarBridge and if so, any feedback on warranty support? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 27385 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Wed Jul 29 20:57:14 2020 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 20:57:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarBridge microinverter troubleshooting and path ahead for stranded customers In-Reply-To: <011b01d665d9$5e4001d0$1ac00570$@solarcentex.com> References: <011b01d665d9$5e4001d0$1ac00570$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Scott, The best way to find a faulty MI (at least one that is not working at all) would be to scan the array with an IR camera. When done properly, the not working module will pop right out because it is warmer than the rest. Flir One makes a pretty cheap attachment for a smartphone. I haven't used this specific one before, but I did order one today :) Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 3:53 PM wrote: > Good day, > > > > We used to install SolarBridge microinverters when we first started. You > know the deal…”we’ve improved what Enphase started”…and they were great – > up until Sunpower bought it to meet market demand for an AC-module, then a > reemergent Enphase bought it from a cash-strapped Sunpower, and promptly > threw the whole kit and caboodle into the trash heap never to be seen again. > > > > But now we have some 25-year warrantied MIs not working, and the > associated “Home Power Manager” monitoring device failed which means > by-module monitoring is gone. These were AC-modules from ET Solar and that > seemingly went bankrupt at some point, too and reemerged as a new ET Solar. > > > > A coupled of questions: > > > > Other than the seemingly infinite permutation of module strings it would > take to narrow down inop MIs, does anyone have techniques or tips on how to > identify individual faulty MIs? > > > > Did anybody else install SolarBridge and if so, any feedback on warranty > support? > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 27385 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jul 30 08:09:44 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 08:09:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarBridge microinverter troubleshooting and path ahead for stranded customers In-Reply-To: References: <011b01d665d9$5e4001d0$1ac00570$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: I love my Flir One for smartphone. It works great for all kinds of tasks. I had not thought of using it for this task. On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:57 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Scott, > The best way to find a faulty MI (at least one that is not working at all) > would be to scan the array with an IR camera. When done properly, the not > working module will pop right out because it is warmer than the rest. Flir > One makes a pretty cheap attachment for a smartphone. I haven't used this > specific one before, but I did order one today :) > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > > On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 3:53 PM wrote: > >> Good day, >> >> >> >> We used to install SolarBridge microinverters when we first started. You >> know the deal…”we’ve improved what Enphase started”…and they were great – >> up until Sunpower bought it to meet market demand for an AC-module, then a >> reemergent Enphase bought it from a cash-strapped Sunpower, and promptly >> threw the whole kit and caboodle into the trash heap never to be seen again. >> >> >> >> But now we have some 25-year warrantied MIs not working, and the >> associated “Home Power Manager” monitoring device failed which means >> by-module monitoring is gone. These were AC-modules from ET Solar and that >> seemingly went bankrupt at some point, too and reemerged as a new ET Solar. >> >> >> >> A coupled of questions: >> >> >> >> Other than the seemingly infinite permutation of module strings it would >> take to narrow down inop MIs, does anyone have techniques or tips on how to >> identify individual faulty MIs? >> >> >> >> Did anybody else install SolarBridge and if so, any feedback on warranty >> support? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 27385 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jul 30 11:21:47 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 08:21:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop Conduit In-Reply-To: <6DE98B6E-6B2D-4152-8CE9-573304D6F8DA@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <6DE98B6E-6B2D-4152-8CE9-573304D6F8DA@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: <7209e333212b2f5aaef56d431ab899d3@127.0.0.1> Anyone have something similar that is non combustible, and that one can open and inspect/make changes? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 19:48:59 -0400, Jeremy Coxon wrote: First time posting so I hope I'm doing this right. We have been using a product called RayTray on projects in the 20-100kW range for a few years now. It's basically a white plastic (RPVC) extrusion tray with a cap that builds out quick and does a nice job of protecting wires from sunlight. Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE SunWind Power Sent from my iPhone On Jul 25, 2020, at 7:23 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Looking at residential installations l do not see cable trays becoming common place in part do to cost and visual appearance. Commercial is where trays work for home runs, feeders to big commercial combines is common place. But they are not pretty by any stretch. I have used aluminum unistrut as trays on smaller arrays using the crosses and T's then their covers Jerry On Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 11:00 PM Corey Shalanski wrote: Wrenches, I noticed a couple good threads ("Cable tray" / "PV Wiring methods") about this topic back in 2013, but I haven't seen much discussion since then. Given some of the advances in PV equipment since then (improved ground-fault protection, arc-fault circuit protection, rapid shutdown), I am curious about current attitudes toward using metallic conduit/cable tray on rooftops. I am primarily interested in hearing about flat commercial rooftops but imagine some of the same conventions may apply for residential rooftops. What are you using for long (or short) dc circuit runs on rooftops? Is cable tray still considered safer? Are there situations where conduit may be merited? If so, is RMC favored over EMT? Do best practices change when considering ac circuits (rather than dc)? Back in 2013 Bill Brooks said that PV installers are the "crazy people" installing conduit on rooftops, and he prophesied that using cable tray on roofs would "become common practice soon." Where do we stand now? -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [8] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:coresolar at gmail.com [4] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at sesre.com Thu Jul 30 11:31:14 2020 From: matt at sesre.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 15:31:14 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop Conduit In-Reply-To: <7209e333212b2f5aaef56d431ab899d3@127.0.0.1> References: <6DE98B6E-6B2D-4152-8CE9-573304D6F8DA@sunwindpowerinc.com> <7209e333212b2f5aaef56d431ab899d3@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: We use OBO Bettermann for rooftops. They make strut clips to attach to rubber triangles to get height off deck and allow water movement. You can get the product in galvanized or stainless with aluminum covers. Listed to ground to itself if properly installed. Looks good. Durable to date. https://www.chalfant-obo.com/Chalfant/Product/Category/10 Not as inexpensive as plastic. Matt Matt Partymiller General Manager Solar Energy Solutions, LLC 877-312-7456 matt at sesre.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2020 11:22 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop Conduit Anyone have something similar that is non combustible, and that one can open and inspect/make changes? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 19:48:59 -0400, Jeremy Coxon > wrote: First time posting so I hope I'm doing this right. We have been using a product called RayTray on projects in the 20-100kW range for a few years now. It's basically a white plastic (RPVC) extrusion tray with a cap that builds out quick and does a nice job of protecting wires from sunlight. Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE SunWind Power Sent from my iPhone On Jul 25, 2020, at 7:23 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: Wrenches Looking at residential installations l do not see cable trays becoming common place in part do to cost and visual appearance. Commercial is where trays work for home runs, feeders to big commercial combines is common place. But they are not pretty by any stretch. I have used aluminum unistrut as trays on smaller arrays using the crosses and T's then their covers Jerry On Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 11:00 PM Corey Shalanski > wrote: Wrenches, I noticed a couple good threads ("Cable tray" / "PV Wiring methods") about this topic back in 2013, but I haven't seen much discussion since then. Given some of the advances in PV equipment since then (improved ground-fault protection, arc-fault circuit protection, rapid shutdown), I am curious about current attitudes toward using metallic conduit/cable tray on rooftops. I am primarily interested in hearing about flat commercial rooftops but imagine some of the same conventions may apply for residential rooftops. What are you using for long (or short) dc circuit runs on rooftops? Is cable tray still considered safer? Are there situations where conduit may be merited? If so, is RMC favored over EMT? Do best practices change when considering ac circuits (rather than dc)? Back in 2013 Bill Brooks said that PV installers are the "crazy people" installing conduit on rooftops, and he prophesied that using cable tray on roofs would "become common practice soon." Where do we stand now? -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evolvedsolar at gmail.com Fri Jul 31 07:13:10 2020 From: evolvedsolar at gmail.com (Al Frishman) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 07:13:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarBridge microinverter troubleshooting and path ahead for stranded customers In-Reply-To: References: <011b01d665d9$5e4001d0$1ac00570$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <94607982-EC6A-437D-B2CA-FA2DE781D071@gmail.com> Hey Dave, I am curious. You note that the non working module will be warmer than the rest. I would think that if a micro is not working then that module will be cooler than the rest. Al Frishman EvolvedSolar (917) 699-6641 > On Jul 29, 2020, at 8:57 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Scott, > The best way to find a faulty MI (at least one that is not working at all) would be to scan the array with an IR camera. When done properly, the not working module will pop right out because it is warmer than the rest. Flir One makes a pretty cheap attachment for a smartphone. I haven't used this specific one before, but I did order one today :) > Cheers, > Dave > > Dave Tedeyan, PE > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > > On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 3:53 PM > wrote: > Good day, > > > > We used to install SolarBridge microinverters when we first started. You know the deal…”we’ve improved what Enphase started”…and they were great – up until Sunpower bought it to meet market demand for an AC-module, then a reemergent Enphase bought it from a cash-strapped Sunpower, and promptly threw the whole kit and caboodle into the trash heap never to be seen again. > > > > But now we have some 25-year warrantied MIs not working, and the associated “Home Power Manager” monitoring device failed which means by-module monitoring is gone. These were AC-modules from ET Solar and that seemingly went bankrupt at some point, too and reemerged as a new ET Solar. > > > > A coupled of questions: > > > > Other than the seemingly infinite permutation of module strings it would take to narrow down inop MIs, does anyone have techniques or tips on how to identify individual faulty MIs? > > > > Did anybody else install SolarBridge and if so, any feedback on warranty support? > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Fri Jul 31 08:17:35 2020 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 08:17:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarBridge microinverter troubleshooting and path ahead for stranded customers In-Reply-To: <94607982-EC6A-437D-B2CA-FA2DE781D071@gmail.com> References: <011b01d665d9$5e4001d0$1ac00570$@solarcentex.com> <94607982-EC6A-437D-B2CA-FA2DE781D071@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Al, A working micro that is mounted directly to the back of the module (i.e. AC module) will be warm and you can see that in an IR scan. But for the module as a whole, if the micro is working, then the sun's energy turns into electricity rather than heat. This actually makes the module cooler than if the micro was not working. Cheers, Dave On Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 7:13 AM Al Frishman wrote: > Hey Dave, > I am curious. You note that the non working module will be warmer than > the rest. I would think that if a micro is not working then that module > will be cooler than the rest. > > *Al Frishman* > EvolvedSolar > (917) 699-6641 > > On Jul 29, 2020, at 8:57 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Scott, > The best way to find a faulty MI (at least one that is not working at all) > would be to scan the array with an IR camera. When done properly, the not > working module will pop right out because it is warmer than the rest. Flir > One makes a pretty cheap attachment for a smartphone. I haven't used this > specific one before, but I did order one today :) > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > > On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 3:53 PM wrote: > >> Good day, >> >> >> >> We used to install SolarBridge microinverters when we first started. You >> know the deal…”we’ve improved what Enphase started”…and they were great – >> up until Sunpower bought it to meet market demand for an AC-module, then a >> reemergent Enphase bought it from a cash-strapped Sunpower, and promptly >> threw the whole kit and caboodle into the trash heap never to be seen again. >> >> >> >> But now we have some 25-year warrantied MIs not working, and the >> associated “Home Power Manager” monitoring device failed which means >> by-module monitoring is gone. These were AC-modules from ET Solar and that >> seemingly went bankrupt at some point, too and reemerged as a new ET Solar. >> >> >> >> A coupled of questions: >> >> >> >> Other than the seemingly infinite permutation of module strings it would >> take to narrow down inop MIs, does anyone have techniques or tips on how to >> identify individual faulty MIs? >> >> >> >> Did anybody else install SolarBridge and if so, any feedback on warranty >> support? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Jul 31 12:07:27 2020 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 10:07:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC direct pond aeration replacement In-Reply-To: <20200723130701.42d1196bae6553eb9b5e527e5e65c85c.9afd7afd1c.wbe@email16.godaddy.com> References: <20200723130701.42d1196bae6553eb9b5e527e5e65c85c.9afd7afd1c.wbe@email16.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <004901d66754$b07ec4a0$117c4de0$@solarwork.com> DC POND AERATION - Check out the GAST website for your area; https://gastmfg.com/connect/distributor-locator Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of mark at hurshtown.com Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 2:07 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC direct pond aeration replacement I too need a source for 12V compressors to be used for pond aeration. I also would greatly appreciate any leads on a source. Thanks, Mark Downing Hurshtown Alt. Power -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC direct pond aeration replacement From: "Dana Orzel" > Date: Thu, July 23, 2020 12:27 pm To: "'RE-wrenches'" > Hey All! I have a client with an old 1/16hp-12 volt GAST dc direct aeration pump/compressor. GAST no longer makes this 12 volt unit. Any suggestions for a reliable replacement? GAST does make higher voltage models I have heard but this would require replacing everything: the linear current booster, new pv modules, as well as the compressor. If you are a supplier please contact me directly. Thanks in advance. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Sat Aug 1 09:09:35 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2020 09:09:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] dual rated 600/1000v cable for HV battery application Message-ID: I need to spec battery cable for a nominal 850 vdc LFP bank. Several brands of power cable list their rating at a dual 600/1000v. it is my understanding that to be listed in this manner, the cable must pass a test apply of over 600v for a short period  without breakdown. But under normal operation IMO, the voltage is not to exceed 600v. And this test is done with AC voltage, not DC. "UL 1277: Power and Control Tray Cable UL 1277, the standard for electrical power and control tray cable, was recently updated, allowing manufacturers with UL approved tray cable to market their product as 600V/1kV rated. To be dual rated, products must use a recognized 1kV rated conductor and pass a higher voltage AC Hipot test on the completed cable. This test requires each insulated conductor in finished cable to withstand a specified voltage range for one minute without breakdown. If a product passes the AC Hipot test, it is suitable for 1kV use." Am I getting this right? And If so, one should not use this 600/1000v wire if normal operating voltage is above 600v as is my case? Proper rating should be dual 1000/2000v like PV wire? What do you experienced high voltage battery gurus use in my application? Thanks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Sat Aug 1 00:37:21 2020 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 18:37:21 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW 4048 Message-ID: Aloha all, I’ve got a pair of Trace, yes Trace, 4048s in a NEM system circa 2001. While I can’t find anything demonstrably wrong after hours of troubleshooting, these buggers just don’t seem to be producing PV power when they should. I’m looking for a greybeard out there who’s well steeped in this fine dinosaur for additional guidance, please. Please contact me off list. Mahalo, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Sat Aug 1 12:26:34 2020 From: rick at SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com (Rick Brown) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 12:26:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW 4048 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <30E1C7AF-CC6F-4289-A936-473A4145F89C@SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com> Marco, Can you be more specific when you say not producing PV power? Do you mean no AC output? Given that these are battery-based inverters they’re not dependent on the PV to be present in order to operate. What state are the batteries in? Is the voltage stable when the inverter is in invert mode? > On Aug 1, 2020, at 12:37 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > > Aloha all, > > I’ve got a pair of Trace, yes Trace, 4048s in a NEM system circa 2001. > > While I can’t find anything demonstrably wrong after hours of troubleshooting, these buggers just don’t seem to be producing PV power when they should. > > I’m looking for a greybeard out there who’s well steeped in this fine dinosaur for additional guidance, please. > > Please contact me off list. > > Mahalo, > marco > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: solshine-01-18-17 copy.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10151 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Aug 1 20:16:09 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 18:16:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] dual rated 600/1000v cable for HV battery application In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10bc54ce-61f0-7d6f-64ec-a1fa39c38a7c@solarray.com> I would look at Diesel Locomotive Cable  DLO, which is usually dual rated RHH/RHW-2 for us non locomotive folks.  2000 v rated. Its pretty easy to work with, flexible, but has a 2nd inner liner that gives it the higher volt rating.  Its also usually tinned conductors too. https://www.awcwire.com/productspec.aspx?id=dlo Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/1/20 7:09 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: > I need to spec battery cable for a nominal 850 vdc LFP bank. Several > brands of power cable list their rating at a dual 600/1000v. it is my > understanding that to be listed in this manner, the cable must pass a > test apply of over 600v for a short period  without breakdown. But > under normal operation IMO, the voltage is not to exceed 600v. And > this test is done with AC voltage, not DC. > > "*UL 1277: Power and Control Tray Cable* > > UL 1277, the standard for electrical power and control tray cable, was > recently updated, allowing manufacturers with UL approved tray cable > to market their product as 600V/1kV rated. To be dual rated, products > must use a recognized 1kV rated conductor and pass a higher voltage AC > Hipot test on the completed cable. This test requires each insulated > conductor in finished cable to withstand a specified voltage range for > one minute without breakdown. If a product passes the AC Hipot test, > it is suitable for 1kV use." > > > Am I getting this right? And If so, one should not use this 600/1000v > wire if normal operating voltage is above 600v as is my case? Proper > rating should be dual 1000/2000v like PV wire? > > What do you experienced high voltage battery gurus use in my > application? Thanks. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 22:18:46 2020 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 21:18:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] dual rated 600/1000v cable for HV battery application In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would not worry as 1000 volt AC has a 1400 volt peak, voltage, On Sat, Aug 1, 2020, 10:33 AM Kirk Herander wrote: > I need to spec battery cable for a nominal 850 vdc LFP bank. Several > brands of power cable list their rating at a dual 600/1000v. it is my > understanding that to be listed in this manner, the cable must pass a test > apply of over 600v for a short period without breakdown. But under normal > operation IMO, the voltage is not to exceed 600v. And this test is done > with AC voltage, not DC. > > "*UL 1277: Power and Control Tray Cable* > > UL 1277, the standard for electrical power and control tray cable, was > recently updated, allowing manufacturers with UL approved tray cable to > market their product as 600V/1kV rated. To be dual rated, products must use > a recognized 1kV rated conductor and pass a higher voltage AC Hipot test on > the completed cable. This test requires each insulated conductor in > finished cable to withstand a specified voltage range for one minute > without breakdown. If a product passes the AC Hipot test, it is suitable > for 1kV use." > > Am I getting this right? And If so, one should not use this 600/1000v wire > if normal operating voltage is above 600v as is my case? Proper rating > should be dual 1000/2000v like PV wire? > > What do you experienced high voltage battery gurus use in my application? > Thanks. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 22:20:44 2020 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 21:20:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] dual rated 600/1000v cable for HV battery application In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also my supplier has XHHW rated at 1000 volts On Sat, Aug 1, 2020, 9:18 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: > I would not worry as 1000 volt AC has a 1400 volt peak, voltage, > > On Sat, Aug 1, 2020, 10:33 AM Kirk Herander wrote: > >> I need to spec battery cable for a nominal 850 vdc LFP bank. Several >> brands of power cable list their rating at a dual 600/1000v. it is my >> understanding that to be listed in this manner, the cable must pass a test >> apply of over 600v for a short period without breakdown. But under normal >> operation IMO, the voltage is not to exceed 600v. And this test is done >> with AC voltage, not DC. >> >> "*UL 1277: Power and Control Tray Cable* >> >> UL 1277, the standard for electrical power and control tray cable, was >> recently updated, allowing manufacturers with UL approved tray cable to >> market their product as 600V/1kV rated. To be dual rated, products must use >> a recognized 1kV rated conductor and pass a higher voltage AC Hipot test on >> the completed cable. This test requires each insulated conductor in >> finished cable to withstand a specified voltage range for one minute >> without breakdown. If a product passes the AC Hipot test, it is suitable >> for 1kV use." >> >> Am I getting this right? And If so, one should not use this 600/1000v >> wire if normal operating voltage is above 600v as is my case? Proper rating >> should be dual 1000/2000v like PV wire? >> >> What do you experienced high voltage battery gurus use in my application? >> Thanks. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at gosolar.co.nz Sun Aug 2 03:36:14 2020 From: john at gosolar.co.nz (John) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 19:36:14 +1200 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small scale Maximisers/Optimisers..... Message-ID: <000801d6689f$9bfee3b0$d3fcab10$@gosolar.co.nz> Where can you find some small maximisers/optimisers for a solar-only pump. This would be for a surface pump like the Flojet 11, 12 or 17 litre/min pumps. They tend to keep the pump operating when a cloud goes over or in low-light conditions. I think they are available for the 9325 but its probably over-kill for the Flojets. Cheers for suggestions - John Veix, N.Z. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 10:34:34 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 07:34:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small scale Maximisers/Optimisers..... In-Reply-To: <000801d6689f$9bfee3b0$d3fcab10$@gosolar.co.nz> References: <000801d6689f$9bfee3b0$d3fcab10$@gosolar.co.nz> Message-ID: Hi john, I’m not sure which pumps you are talking about. Are these positive displacement, and if so then an LCB is what you need. Jay > On Aug 2, 2020, at 6:26 AM, John wrote: > >  > Where can you find some small maximisers/optimisers for a solar-only pump. This would be for a surface pump like the Flojet 11, 12 or 17 litre/min pumps. They tend to keep the pump operating when a cloud goes over or in low-light conditions. I think they are available for the 9325 but its probably over-kill for the Flojets. > Cheers for suggestions – John Veix, N.Z. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Aug 2 11:09:42 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2020 08:09:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small scale Maximisers/Optimisers..... In-Reply-To: References: <000801d6689f$9bfee3b0$d3fcab10$@gosolar.co.nz> Message-ID: Probably an RV water pump? And an LCB should work. Who makes a good LCB for this Jay? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 07:34:34 -0700, Jay wrote: Hi john, I'm not sure which pumps you are talking about. Are these positive displacement, and if so then an LCB is what you need. Jay On Aug 2, 2020, at 6:26 AM, John wrote: Where can you find some small maximisers/optimisers for a solar-only pump. This would be for a surface pump like the Flojet 11, 12 or 17 litre/min pumps. They tend to keep the pump operating when a cloud goes over or in low-light conditions. I think they are available for the 9325 but its probably over-kill for the Flojets. Cheers for suggestions - John Veix, N.Z. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at gosolar.co.nz Sun Aug 2 16:33:56 2020 From: john at gosolar.co.nz (John) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 08:33:56 +1200 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small scale Maximisers/Optimisers..... In-Reply-To: References: <000801d6689f$9bfee3b0$d3fcab10$@gosolar.co.nz> Message-ID: <001101d6690c$40e594c0$c2b0be40$@gosolar.co.nz> Yes they are for positive displacement pumps – and the question was where can you find them – who makes them…?? Thanks, John From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Monday, 3 August 2020 3:10 am To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Small scale Maximisers/Optimisers..... Probably an RV water pump? And an LCB should work. Who makes a good LCB for this Jay? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 07:34:34 -0700, Jay > wrote: Hi john, I'm not sure which pumps you are talking about. Are these positive displacement, and if so then an LCB is what you need. Jay On Aug 2, 2020, at 6:26 AM, John > wrote: Where can you find some small maximisers/optimisers for a solar-only pump. This would be for a surface pump like the Flojet 11, 12 or 17 litre/min pumps. They tend to keep the pump operating when a cloud goes over or in low-light conditions. I think they are available for the 9325 but its probably over-kill for the Flojets. Cheers for suggestions – John Veix, N.Z. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 16:13:40 2020 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 14:13:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small scale Maximisers/Optimisers..... In-Reply-To: <000801d6689f$9bfee3b0$d3fcab10$@gosolar.co.nz> References: <000801d6689f$9bfee3b0$d3fcab10$@gosolar.co.nz> Message-ID: John -- For small RV-type diaphragm surface pumps, I have successfully used the SunPumps PCA-30 LCB numerous times. I see you are in New Zealand? I've also used the P-MAX MPPT LCB model PMAXBT-C, made in Australia. I can't find any contact info for that company, don't know if they are still around. I have one here in my storeroom though, best I can do is send a picture if that would help. Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP PV Associate NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 7:26 AM John wrote: > Where can you find some small maximisers/optimisers for a solar-only > pump. This would be for a surface pump like the Flojet 11, 12 or 17 > litre/min pumps. They tend to keep the pump operating when a cloud goes > over or in low-light conditions. I think they are available for the 9325 > but its probably over-kill for the Flojets. > > Cheers for suggestions – John Veix, N.Z. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 17:21:44 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 14:21:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small scale Maximisers/Optimisers..... In-Reply-To: <001101d6690c$40e594c0$c2b0be40$@gosolar.co.nz> References: <001101d6690c$40e594c0$c2b0be40$@gosolar.co.nz> Message-ID: <2AD5C3EE-F229-4D9F-BF01-CD62D5537983@gmail.com> Hi John Sunpumps makes a really good one. Here is a ebay link showing many of the new probably Chinese (not saying they are bad) but they are way less expensive than the US versions. https://www.ebay.com/i/293234996712?chn=ps I expect if you shop AliExpress you’ll find these exact items. Cheers Jay > On Aug 2, 2020, at 2:13 PM, John wrote: > >  > Yes they are for positive displacement pumps – and the question was where can you find them – who makes them…?? > > Thanks, John > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Sent: Monday, 3 August 2020 3:10 am > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Small scale Maximisers/Optimisers..... > > Probably an RV water pump? And an LCB should work. Who makes a good LCB for this Jay? > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 07:34:34 -0700, Jay wrote: > > Hi john, > > I'm not sure which pumps you are talking about. Are these positive displacement, and if so then an LCB is what you need. > > Jay > > > On Aug 2, 2020, at 6:26 AM, John wrote: > > Where can you find some small maximisers/optimisers for a solar-only pump. This would be for a surface pump like the Flojet 11, 12 or 17 litre/min pumps. They tend to keep the pump operating when a cloud goes over or in low-light conditions. I think they are available for the 9325 but its probably over-kill for the Flojets. > Cheers for suggestions – John Veix, N.Z. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sun Aug 2 19:22:23 2020 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 19:22:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small scale Maximisers/Optimisers..... In-Reply-To: <2AD5C3EE-F229-4D9F-BF01-CD62D5537983@gmail.com> References: <001101d6690c$40e594c0$c2b0be40$@gosolar.co.nz> <2AD5C3EE-F229-4D9F-BF01-CD62D5537983@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00c501d66923$c8a00370$59e00a50$@glbcc.com> Ebay items – UL listing optional… From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2020 5:22 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Small scale Maximisers/Optimisers..... Hi John Sunpumps makes a really good one. Here is a ebay link showing many of the new probably Chinese (not saying they are bad) but they are way less expensive than the US versions. https://www.ebay.com/i/293234996712?chn=ps I expect if you shop AliExpress you’ll find these exact items. Cheers Jay On Aug 2, 2020, at 2:13 PM, John > wrote:  Yes they are for positive displacement pumps – and the question was where can you find them – who makes them…?? Thanks, John From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Monday, 3 August 2020 3:10 am To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Small scale Maximisers/Optimisers..... Probably an RV water pump? And an LCB should work. Who makes a good LCB for this Jay? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 07:34:34 -0700, Jay > wrote: Hi john, I'm not sure which pumps you are talking about. Are these positive displacement, and if so then an LCB is what you need. Jay On Aug 2, 2020, at 6:26 AM, John > wrote: Where can you find some small maximisers/optimisers for a solar-only pump. This would be for a surface pump like the Flojet 11, 12 or 17 litre/min pumps. They tend to keep the pump operating when a cloud goes over or in low-light conditions. I think they are available for the 9325 but its probably over-kill for the Flojets. Cheers for suggestions – John Veix, N.Z. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Aug 2 19:19:34 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2020 16:19:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small scale Maximisers/Optimisers..... In-Reply-To: <2AD5C3EE-F229-4D9F-BF01-CD62D5537983@gmail.com> References: <001101d6690c$40e594c0$c2b0be40$@gosolar.co.nz> <2AD5C3EE-F229-4D9F-BF01-CD62D5537983@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1dfe41fc683094e2d22061b3ed3ba0d9@127.0.0.1> Thanks Jay ! I have project where I want to install a pump in a tank for remote watering. If the LCB is used, have you ever tried using a small ATV 12V AGM to allow the pump to run in wildfire smoke or at night? Just a switch to parallel the the LCB? Anyone tried this? There are a bunch of LCB's on amazon also. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 14:21:44 -0700, Jay wrote: Hi John Sunpumps makes a really good one. Here is a ebay link showing many of the new probably Chinese (not saying they are bad) but they are way less expensive than the US versions. https://www.ebay.com/i/293234996712?chn=ps [3] I expect if you shop AliExpress you'll find these exact items. Cheers Jay On Aug 2, 2020, at 2:13 PM, John wrote: Yes they are for positive displacement pumps - and the question was where can you find them - who makes them...?? Thanks, John FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar SENT: Monday, 3 August 2020 3:10 am TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Small scale Maximisers/Optimisers..... Probably an RV water pump? And an LCB should work. Who makes a good LCB for this Jay? DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "WE GO WHERE POWERLINES DON'T" E-MAIL TEXT 209 813 0060 On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 07:34:34 -0700, Jay wrote: Hi john, I'm not sure which pumps you are talking about. Are these positive displacement, and if so then an LCB is what you need. Jay On Aug 2, 2020, at 6:26 AM, John wrote: Where can you find some small maximisers/optimisers for a solar-only pump. This would be for a surface pump like the Flojet 11, 12 or 17 litre/min pumps. They tend to keep the pump operating when a cloud goes over or in low-light conditions. I think they are available for the 9325 but its probably over-kill for the Flojets. Cheers for suggestions - John Veix, N.Z. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://www.ebay.com/i/293234996712?chn=ps [4] mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com [5] mailto:john at gosolar.co.nz [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 20:18:58 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 17:18:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small scale Maximisers/Optimisers..... In-Reply-To: <1dfe41fc683094e2d22061b3ed3ba0d9@127.0.0.1> References: <1dfe41fc683094e2d22061b3ed3ba0d9@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Hi Dave I don’t know if you paralleled A battery with the output if you’d damage the LCB. You won’t hurt the pump. A diode on the output of the LCB side would take care of that though. Might be worth a test? Of course if you’re going to be putting in a battery then maybe just use a CC/PV instead of the LCB. Either method will probably need some kind of shutoff unless youve got lots of water. Jay > On Aug 2, 2020, at 4:47 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > >  > Thanks Jay ! I have project where I want to install a pump in a tank for remote watering. If the LCB is used, have you ever tried using a small ATV 12V AGM to allow the pump to run in wildfire smoke or at night? Just a switch to parallel the the LCB? > > Anyone tried this? There are a bunch of LCB's on amazon also. > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 >> On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 14:21:44 -0700, Jay wrote: >> >> Hi John >> >> Sunpumps makes a really good one. >> >> Here is a ebay link showing many of the new probably Chinese (not saying they are bad) but they are way less expensive than the US versions. >> >> https://www.ebay.com/i/293234996712?chn=ps >> >> I expect if you shop AliExpress you'll find these exact items. >> >> Cheers >> Jay >> >> >> >> >>> On Aug 2, 2020, at 2:13 PM, John wrote: >>> >>> Yes they are for positive displacement pumps – and the question was where can you find them – who makes them...?? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, John >>> >>> >>> >>> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> Sent: Monday, 3 August 2020 3:10 am >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Small scale Maximisers/Optimisers..... >>> >>> >>> >>> Probably an RV water pump? And an LCB should work. Who makes a good LCB for this Jay? >>> >>> >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060 >>> On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 07:34:34 -0700, Jay wrote: >>> >>> Hi john, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not sure which pumps you are talking about. Are these positive displacement, and if so then an LCB is what you need. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Aug 2, 2020, at 6:26 AM, John wrote: >>> >>> Where can you find some small maximisers/optimisers for a solar-only pump. This would be for a surface pump like the Flojet 11, 12 or 17 litre/min pumps. They tend to keep the pump operating when a cloud goes over or in low-light conditions. I think they are available for the 9325 but its probably over-kill for the Flojets. >>> >>> Cheers for suggestions – John Veix, N.Z. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sun Aug 2 23:50:53 2020 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 21:50:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small scale Maximisers/Optimisers..... In-Reply-To: <00c501d66923$c8a00370$59e00a50$@glbcc.com> References: <00c501d66923$c8a00370$59e00a50$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Glenn, I don’t believe that UL listing is optional. I don’t believe it’s even available, nor even desirable, for a small component such as this. For an item that’s made in small quantities to serve a niche market, and low voltage DC at that, I can’t imagine what advantage UL listing would offer, especially if now a $150 product cost $250 to cover the cost of the listing process. Just sayin’... Allan > On Aug 2, 2020, at 5:48 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > >  > Ebay items – UL listing optional… > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jay > Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2020 5:22 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Small scale Maximisers/Optimisers..... > > Hi John > > Sunpumps makes a really good one. > > Here is a ebay link showing many of the new probably Chinese (not saying they are bad) but they are way less expensive than the US versions. > > https://www.ebay.com/i/293234996712?chn=ps > > I expect if you shop AliExpress you’ll find these exact items. > > Cheers > Jay > > > > > > On Aug 2, 2020, at 2:13 PM, John wrote: > >  > Yes they are for positive displacement pumps – and the question was where can you find them – who makes them…?? > > Thanks, John > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Sent: Monday, 3 August 2020 3:10 am > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Small scale Maximisers/Optimisers..... > > Probably an RV water pump? And an LCB should work. Who makes a good LCB for this Jay? > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 07:34:34 -0700, Jay wrote: > > Hi john, > > I'm not sure which pumps you are talking about. Are these positive displacement, and if so then an LCB is what you need. > > Jay > > > > On Aug 2, 2020, at 6:26 AM, John wrote: > > Where can you find some small maximisers/optimisers for a solar-only pump. This would be for a surface pump like the Flojet 11, 12 or 17 litre/min pumps. They tend to keep the pump operating when a cloud goes over or in low-light conditions. I think they are available for the 9325 but its probably over-kill for the Flojets. > Cheers for suggestions – John Veix, N.Z. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Aug 3 00:07:42 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 22:07:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small scale Maximisers/Optimisers..... In-Reply-To: References: <1dfe41fc683094e2d22061b3ed3ba0d9@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <0579a32d-128e-5218-a22a-49882d283484@solarray.com> I agree, I would do one or the other.  The main point to using a LCB is so you don't have to have a battery.  A battery system is going to be much more versatile, and could allow an LED light, or even a small inverter. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/2/20 6:18 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi Dave > > I don’t know if you paralleled A battery with the output if you’d > damage the LCB. You won’t hurt the pump. > A diode on the output of the LCB side would take care of that though. > > Might be worth a test? > > Of course if you’re going to be putting in a battery then maybe just > use a CC/PV instead of the LCB. > > Either method will probably need some kind of shutoff unless youve got > lots of water. > > Jay > >> On Aug 2, 2020, at 4:47 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Thanks Jay !  I have project where I want to install a pump in a tank >> for remote watering. If the LCB is used, have you ever tried using a >> small ATV 12V AGM to allow the pump to run in wildfire smoke or at >> night? Just a switch to parallel the the LCB? >> >> Anyone tried this? There are a bunch of LCB's on amazon also. >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 14:21:44 -0700, Jay wrote: >> >>> Hi John >>> Sunpumps makes a really good one. >>> Here is a ebay link showing many of the new probably Chinese (not >>> saying they are bad) but they are way less expensive than the US >>> versions. >>> https://www.ebay.com/i/293234996712?chn=ps >>> I expect if you shop AliExpress you'll find these exact items. >>> Cheers >>> Jay >>> >>>> On Aug 2, 2020, at 2:13 PM, John wrote: >>>> >>>> Yes they are for positive displacement pumps – and the question was >>>> where can you find them – who makes them...?? >>>> >>>> Thanks, John >>>> >>>> *From:*RE-wrenches *On >>>> Behalf Of *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>> *Sent:* Monday, 3 August 2020 3:10 am >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Small scale Maximisers/Optimisers..... >>>> >>>> Probably an RV water pump? And an LCB should work. Who makes a good >>>> LCB for this Jay? >>>> >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >>>> *"we go where powerlines don't"* >>>> *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/* >>>> *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * >>>> *text 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 07:34:34 -0700, Jay >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi john, >>>> >>>> I'm not sure which pumps you are talking about. Are these >>>> positive displacement, and if so then an LCB is what you need. >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Aug 2, 2020, at 6:26 AM, John >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Where can you find some small maximisers/optimisers for a >>>> solar-only pump.   This would be for a surface pump like >>>> the Flojet 11, 12 or 17 litre/min pumps.  They tend to keep >>>> the pump operating when a cloud goes over or in low-light >>>> conditions.    I think they are available for the 9325 but >>>> its probably over-kill for the Flojets. >>>> >>>> Cheers for suggestions – John Veix,    N.Z. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 02:49:21 2020 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 01:49:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small scale Maximisers/Optimisers..... In-Reply-To: <1dfe41fc683094e2d22061b3ed3ba0d9@127.0.0.1> References: <001101d6690c$40e594c0$c2b0be40$@gosolar.co.nz> <2AD5C3EE-F229-4D9F-BF01-CD62D5537983@gmail.com> <1dfe41fc683094e2d22061b3ed3ba0d9@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: The linear current booster is capable of increasing current on say motor start-up, once the motor is started, its current needs dropdown. A battery has high current capability, so I would not expect any advantage in an LCB. If the LCB is of the buck-boost type you may be able to run a 24-volt motor from a 12-volt battery be careful an LCB can overvoltage a motor. On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 6:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Thanks Jay ! I have project where I want to install a pump in a tank for > remote watering. If the LCB is used, have you ever tried using a small ATV > 12V AGM to allow the pump to run in wildfire smoke or at night? Just a > switch to parallel the the LCB? > > Anyone tried this? There are a bunch of LCB's on amazon also. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 14:21:44 -0700, Jay wrote: > > Hi John > > Sunpumps makes a really good one. > > Here is a ebay link showing many of the new probably Chinese (not saying > they are bad) but they are way less expensive than the US versions. > > https://www.ebay.com/i/293234996712?chn=ps > > I expect if you shop AliExpress you'll find these exact items. > > Cheers > Jay > > > > > On Aug 2, 2020, at 2:13 PM, John wrote: > > Yes they are for positive displacement pumps – and the question was where > can you find them – who makes them...?? > > > > Thanks, John > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > *Sent:* Monday, 3 August 2020 3:10 am > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Small scale Maximisers/Optimisers..... > > > > Probably an RV water pump? And an LCB should work. Who makes a good LCB > for this Jay? > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't"* > > *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ * > > *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * > > *text 209 813 0060* > > On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 07:34:34 -0700, Jay wrote: > > Hi john, > > > > I'm not sure which pumps you are talking about. Are these positive > displacement, and if so then an LCB is what you need. > > > > Jay > > > > On Aug 2, 2020, at 6:26 AM, John wrote: > > Where can you find some small maximisers/optimisers for a solar-only > pump. This would be for a surface pump like the Flojet 11, 12 or 17 > litre/min pumps. They tend to keep the pump operating when a cloud goes > over or in low-light conditions. I think they are available for the 9325 > but its probably over-kill for the Flojets. > > Cheers for suggestions – John Veix, N.Z. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Mon Aug 3 09:47:38 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 09:47:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] dual rated 600/1000v cable for HV battery application In-Reply-To: <10bc54ce-61f0-7d6f-64ec-a1fa39c38a7c@solarray.com> References: <10bc54ce-61f0-7d6f-64ec-a1fa39c38a7c@solarray.com> Message-ID: <55F91C98-9E47-4941-B111-496CB86A1A57@swnl.net> My contact at Cobra wire & cable is quite sharp. 215-674-8773 ext. 5000, ltashjian at cobrawire.com she has been CCed here. > On Aug 1, 2020, at 8:16 PM, Ray wrote: > > I would look at Diesel Locomotive Cable DLO, which is usually dual rated RHH/RHW-2 for us non locomotive folks. 2000 v rated. Its pretty easy to work with, flexible, but has a 2nd inner liner that gives it the higher volt rating. Its also usually tinned conductors too. > https://www.awcwire.com/productspec.aspx?id=dlo > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 8/1/20 7:09 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: >> I need to spec battery cable for a nominal 850 vdc LFP bank. Several brands of power cable list their rating at a dual 600/1000v. it is my understanding that to be listed in this manner, the cable must pass a test apply of over 600v for a short period without breakdown. But under normal operation IMO, the voltage is not to exceed 600v. And this test is done with AC voltage, not DC. >> >> "UL 1277: Power and Control Tray Cable >> UL 1277, the standard for electrical power and control tray cable, was recently updated, allowing manufacturers with UL approved tray cable to market their product as 600V/1kV rated. To be dual rated, products must use a recognized 1kV rated conductor and pass a higher voltage AC Hipot test on the completed cable. This test requires each insulated conductor in finished cable to withstand a specified voltage range for one minute without breakdown. If a product passes the AC Hipot test, it is suitable for 1kV use." >> >> >> Am I getting this right? And If so, one should not use this 600/1000v wire if normal operating voltage is above 600v as is my case? Proper rating should be dual 1000/2000v like PV wire? >> >> What do you experienced high voltage battery gurus use in my application? Thanks. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Aug 3 17:39:26 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 14:39:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apollo Software Message-ID: <8ded90b427f3c96aeebc024f70140160@127.0.0.1> Hi Wrenches, I have a client who has several Apollo Inverters that were Installed 9+ years ago. They are all still working well, however Apollo Solar has since gone out of Business. I recently needed to change some settings and am unable to do so. Most of the settings on these inverters is done VIA PC link, I have the USB to ASNET adapter but do not have the software... So I am looking for someone who has a copy of the USB drivers and the Apollo Inverter manager Software. He will pay to get a copy of these. Thanks, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Aug 4 12:47:26 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:47:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarBridge microinverter troubleshooting and path ahead for stranded customers In-Reply-To: <011b01d665d9$5e4001d0$1ac00570$@solarcentex.com> References: <011b01d665d9$5e4001d0$1ac00570$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Hi Scot - We've installed lots (too many) of SolarBridge micros, but they've all been through SunPower. SunPower is upholding their warranty. As you mentioned, the monitoring box is a big problem for these systems - they started out with really clunky hardware and or software and it never got better. Anyway, have you tried contacting SunPower or Enphase for warranty support since they purchased the assets? It seems like it's going to be a losing battle with these old systems if we can't get a working monitoring device. Best, August On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 12:53 PM wrote: > Good day, > > > > We used to install SolarBridge microinverters when we first started. You > know the deal…”we’ve improved what Enphase started”…and they were great – > up until Sunpower bought it to meet market demand for an AC-module, then a > reemergent Enphase bought it from a cash-strapped Sunpower, and promptly > threw the whole kit and caboodle into the trash heap never to be seen again. > > > > But now we have some 25-year warrantied MIs not working, and the > associated “Home Power Manager” monitoring device failed which means > by-module monitoring is gone. These were AC-modules from ET Solar and that > seemingly went bankrupt at some point, too and reemerged as a new ET Solar. > > > > A coupled of questions: > > > > Other than the seemingly infinite permutation of module strings it would > take to narrow down inop MIs, does anyone have techniques or tips on how to > identify individual faulty MIs? > > > > Did anybody else install SolarBridge and if so, any feedback on warranty > support? > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 27385 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Tue Aug 4 14:19:06 2020 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 18:19:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flir One for Smart Phones References: <702556251.391246.1596565146861.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <702556251.391246.1596565146861@mail.yahoo.com> We have spent a lifetime hoping, searching, dreaming of an easy and affordable means of finding roof rafters.  Has anyone used the Flir One for smart phones with any kind of success to accomplish this task??? P.S.  We are well aware of how inexpensive hammers are!  Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Aug 4 14:36:40 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 12:36:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flir One for Smart Phones In-Reply-To: <702556251.391246.1596565146861@mail.yahoo.com> References: <702556251.391246.1596565146861.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <702556251.391246.1596565146861@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7e4afc47-4ae4-a4f4-3755-88a50a0e434a@solarray.com> You would have to have a serious heat differential from inside to outside for that too work.  And it still wouldn't get you closer than a hammer.  Also, most attics are ventilated so they would be close to the outside temp anyway.  Usually the insulation is on the ceiling not under the roof. On a cold night with a vaulted ceiling is the only time it "might" work. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/4/20 12:19 PM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote: > We have spent a lifetime hoping, searching, dreaming of an easy and > affordable means of finding roof rafters.  Has anyone used the Flir > One for smart phones with any kind of success to accomplish this task??? > > P.S.  We are well aware of how inexpensive hammers are! > > **Andrew Koyaanisqatsi** > *President* > **Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. > /The BRIGHT CHOICE/ > ** > *Since 1987,**helping you and your Portland neighbors > move**towards an environmentally sustainable future.* > **503-238-4502 > www.SolarEnergyOregon.com ** > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Tue Aug 4 14:32:24 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 14:32:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] dual rated 600/1000v cable for HV battery application In-Reply-To: <10bc54ce-61f0-7d6f-64ec-a1fa39c38a7c@solarray.com> References: <10bc54ce-61f0-7d6f-64ec-a1fa39c38a7c@solarray.com> Message-ID: Thanks Ray, I am going to use the 2kva DLO cable. It is dual rated as RHW-2, which is what inverter OEM recommends. AWC warehouse is also close by in PA. also. On 8/1/2020 8:16:16 PM, Ray wrote: I would look at Diesel Locomotive Cable DLO, which is usually dual rated RHH/RHW-2 for us non locomotive folks. 2000 v rated. Its pretty easy to work with, flexible, but has a 2nd inner liner that gives it the higher volt rating. Its also usually tinned conductors too. https://www.awcwire.com/productspec.aspx?id=dlo [https://www.awcwire.com/productspec.aspx?id=dlo] Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/1/20 7:09 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: I need to spec battery cable for a nominal 850 vdc LFP bank. Several brands of power cable list their rating at a dual 600/1000v. it is my understanding that to be listed in this manner, the cable must pass a test apply of over 600v for a short period without breakdown. But under normal operation IMO, the voltage is not to exceed 600v. And this test is done with AC voltage, not DC. "UL 1277: Power and Control Tray Cable UL 1277, the standard for electrical power and control tray cable, was recently updated, allowing manufacturers with UL approved tray cable to market their product as 600V/1kV rated. To be dual rated, products must use a recognized 1kV rated conductor and pass a higher voltage AC Hipot test on the completed cable. This test requires each insulated conductor in finished cable to withstand a specified voltage range for one minute without breakdown. If a product passes the AC Hipot test, it is suitable for 1kV use." Am I getting this right? And If so, one should not use this 600/1000v wire if normal operating voltage is above 600v as is my case? Proper rating should be dual 1000/2000v like PV wire? What do you experienced high voltage battery gurus use in my application? Thanks. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Aug 4 14:49:19 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 12:49:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] dual rated 600/1000v cable for HV battery application In-Reply-To: References: <10bc54ce-61f0-7d6f-64ec-a1fa39c38a7c@solarray.com> Message-ID: <0ba57486-1bb2-48d6-f923-86999b89ef39@solarray.com> I've used it a few times for battery and inverter cables and it works just fine.  It just has a thicker jacket so when you heat shrink it at the lugs, it looks funny.  Not a serious problem, just get a higher ratio heat shrink like 3 to 1, and it should be fine. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/4/20 12:32 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > Thanks Ray, > I am going to use the 2kva DLO cable. It is dual rated as RHW-2, which > is what inverter OEM recommends. AWC warehouse is also close by in PA. > also. >> >> On 8/1/2020 8:16:16 PM, Ray wrote: >> >> I would look at Diesel Locomotive Cable  DLO, which is usually dual >> rated RHH/RHW-2 for us non locomotive folks. 2000 v rated.  Its >> pretty easy to work with, flexible, but has a 2nd inner liner that >> gives it the higher volt rating.  Its also usually tinned conductors >> too. >> >> https://www.awcwire.com/productspec.aspx?id=dlo >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 8/1/20 7:09 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: >>> I need to spec battery cable for a nominal 850 vdc LFP bank. Several >>> brands of power cable list their rating at a dual 600/1000v. it is >>> my understanding that to be listed in this manner, the cable must >>> pass a test apply of over 600v for a short period  without >>> breakdown. But under normal operation IMO, the voltage is not to >>> exceed 600v. And this test is done with AC voltage, not DC. >>> >>> "*UL 1277: Power and Control Tray Cable* >>> >>> UL 1277, the standard for electrical power and control tray cable, >>> was recently updated, allowing manufacturers with UL approved tray >>> cable to market their product as 600V/1kV rated. To be dual rated, >>> products must use a recognized 1kV rated conductor and pass a higher >>> voltage AC Hipot test on the completed cable. This test requires >>> each insulated conductor in finished cable to withstand a specified >>> voltage range for one minute without breakdown. If a product passes >>> the AC Hipot test, it is suitable for 1kV use." >>> >>> >>> Am I getting this right? And If so, one should not use this >>> 600/1000v wire if normal operating voltage is above 600v as is my >>> case? Proper rating should be dual 1000/2000v like PV wire? >>> >>> What do you experienced high voltage battery gurus use in my >>> application? Thanks. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From David.Opalinsky at sunpower.com Tue Aug 4 15:16:57 2020 From: David.Opalinsky at sunpower.com (Isaac Opalinsky) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 19:16:57 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [EXT] Re: Flir One for Smart Phones In-Reply-To: <7e4afc47-4ae4-a4f4-3755-88a50a0e434a@solarray.com> References: <702556251.391246.1596565146861.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <702556251.391246.1596565146861@mail.yahoo.com> <7e4afc47-4ae4-a4f4-3755-88a50a0e434a@solarray.com> Message-ID: Andrew, These photos might not make much sense without context, but they were taken with Seek Thermal’s IR camera for an Android device. I now use the FlirOne It was an exceptionally hot day, which helped the contrast. I’d say this was good enough to identify that there were rafters present, but it wasn’t good enough to identify rafter location with precision (e.g., identify the edge of a rafter to within +/- ½”). I play with this whenever I get a chance, and I’ve never had better results with anything below the laboratory-grade equipment we use. Best Regards, Isaac Opalinsky | Director, Training & Field Enablement office 443-569-3476 | mobile 443-277-6286 | isaac.opalinsky at sunpower.com [sp_2014_logo_black_orange_CMYK-01] From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2020 2:37 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [EXT] Re: [RE-wrenches] Flir One for Smart Phones External Email - Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or downloading attachments. ________________________________ You would have to have a serious heat differential from inside to outside for that too work. And it still wouldn't get you closer than a hammer. Also, most attics are ventilated so they would be close to the outside temp anyway. Usually the insulation is on the ceiling not under the roof. On a cold night with a vaulted ceiling is the only time it "might" work. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/4/20 12:19 PM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote: We have spent a lifetime hoping, searching, dreaming of an easy and affordable means of finding roof rafters. Has anyone used the Flir One for smart phones with any kind of success to accomplish this task??? P.S. We are well aware of how inexpensive hammers are! Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future. 503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 5843 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img_thermal_1431445336858.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 55447 bytes Desc: img_thermal_1431445336858.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img_thermal_1431445226616.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 39448 bytes Desc: img_thermal_1431445226616.jpg URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Aug 4 16:41:07 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 16:41:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flir One for Smart Phones In-Reply-To: <702556251.391246.1596565146861@mail.yahoo.com> References: <702556251.391246.1596565146861.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <702556251.391246.1596565146861@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have a Flir One and tested it extensively on Android. It works great in Florida in the morning when there is a big temperature differential, but only good enough to get a general idea of location and truss direction. As soon as the roof surface heats up and the attic temperature stabilizes, it's completely useless. I abandoned the whole idea. Jason Szumlanski On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 2:19 PM Solar Energy Solutions < solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com> wrote: > We have spent a lifetime hoping, searching, dreaming of an easy and > affordable means of finding roof rafters. Has anyone used the Flir One for > smart phones with any kind of success to accomplish this task??? > > P.S. We are well aware of how inexpensive hammers are! > > > *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* > *President* > > > *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.The BRIGHT CHOICE* > *Since 1987,* > * helping you and your Portland neighborsmove** towards an > environmentally sustainable future.* > > *503-238-4502www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > > * > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Tue Aug 4 17:45:45 2020 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:45:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flir One for Smart Phones (Jason Szumlanski) Message-ID: <0A6E28E3-20BB-43DC-98D1-4DCD0BC7DBAB@sunwindpowerinc.com> We have tried all manner of gadgets over the years and haven’t found anything more accurate than a hammer and a tuned (experienced) ear. Gentle taps (so as to not damage roof) are all that’s needed. We also have a 12” piece of solid #10 copper in each tool belt for those tricky roofs where rafter spacing isn’t consistent or there are sistered rafters for long spans. Insert the wire thru a test hole, bend into a U shape, then rotate to find exact location of rafter, mark with chalk, then go to town. Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 4, 2020, at 5:34 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: > > Re: Flir One for Smart Phones (Jason Szumlanski) From william at millersolar.com Tue Aug 4 15:04:47 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 12:04:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flir One for Smart Phones In-Reply-To: <7e4afc47-4ae4-a4f4-3755-88a50a0e434a@solarray.com> References: <702556251.391246.1596565146861.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <702556251.391246.1596565146861@mail.yahoo.com> <7e4afc47-4ae4-a4f4-3755-88a50a0e434a@solarray.com> Message-ID: <1576c92e531ac81069a151630804c7d9@mail.gmail.com> Andrew: For years we used the tap test to get close (hammer gently on the roof, listening for solid sound. Move up and down a course or two if needed.) After the tap test, we drill a 1/8 hole and inserted a bent landscape flag wire and rotate it, feeling for contact with the side of the rafter. Then someone improved on the idea and invented the tool linked below. https://wizarddistribution.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=4168&ProReview_ID=663 This has proven to be a great tool. I highly recommend it. It still requires the tap test to get in the general vicinity. BTW, everyone on the crew has their own color of lumber crayon used to circle every pilot hole to indicate they own it. This really encourages being responsible to ensure the pilot hole is under the flashing and gets sealed. If a pilot hole is drilled that will not be covered by the flashing, we take a cut off upper shingle tab and slip it under the course with the pilot hole and squirt some caulk through the hole. 35 years in the industry and only one roof leak. William *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ray *Sent:* Tuesday, August 4, 2020 11:37 AM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Flir One for Smart Phones You would have to have a serious heat differential from inside to outside for that too work. And it still wouldn't get you closer than a hammer. Also, most attics are ventilated so they would be close to the outside temp anyway. Usually the insulation is on the ceiling not under the roof. On a cold night with a vaulted ceiling is the only time it "might" work. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/4/20 12:19 PM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote: We have spent a lifetime hoping, searching, dreaming of an easy and affordable means of finding roof rafters. Has anyone used the Flir One for smart phones with any kind of success to accomplish this task??? P.S. We are well aware of how inexpensive hammers are! *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* *President* *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.The BRIGHT CHOICE* *Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighborsmove towards an environmentally sustainable future.* *503-238-4502www.SolarEnergyOregon.com * _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Ken at commonwealthsolar.com Tue Aug 4 18:45:17 2020 From: Ken at commonwealthsolar.com (Ken Schaal) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 18:45:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flir One for Smart Phones (Jason Szumlanski) In-Reply-To: <0A6E28E3-20BB-43DC-98D1-4DCD0BC7DBAB@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <0A6E28E3-20BB-43DC-98D1-4DCD0BC7DBAB@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: On the past I've had plan reviewers object to any hole or lag into rafters, especially trusses, claiming it voided warranty...any thoughts? Ken Schaal On Tue, Aug 4, 2020, 5:45 PM Jeremy Coxon wrote: > We have tried all manner of gadgets over the years and haven’t found > anything more accurate than a hammer and a tuned (experienced) ear. Gentle > taps (so as to not damage roof) are all that’s needed. We also have a 12” > piece of solid #10 copper in each tool belt for those tricky roofs where > rafter spacing isn’t consistent or there are sistered rafters for long > spans. Insert the wire thru a test hole, bend into a U shape, then rotate > to find exact location of rafter, mark with chalk, then go to town. > > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP > Certified MWBE > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Aug 4, 2020, at 5:34 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > wrote: > > > > Re: Flir One for Smart Phones (Jason Szumlanski) > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamie.greenwired at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 19:46:39 2020 From: jamie.greenwired at gmail.com (Jamie Rennie) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 16:46:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Omnidian Reviews Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, We have been approached by Omnidian ( https://www.omnidian.com/ ) who want to provide insurance for our projects. Wondering if anyone has had experience working with them on front end sales and on receiving actual service when it is needed. -- Respectfully, Jamie Rennie Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 F: 707-923-2077 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com [image: Description: signature] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Aug 4 20:06:52 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:06:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flir One for Smart Phones (Jason Szumlanski) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ken: We have experienced this. There is a provision in the California building code that states: though shall not cut, drill or notch structural members. Our interpretation is a driven lag is not the same as a drilled hole. We had to pay a structural engineer to draft a generic letter allowing driven lags as long as they were: no greater than 5/16”, not penetrating more than 3” and not closer than 1/2” from edge of rafter. California expedited solar permitting guidelines have a nifty drawing showing acceptable lag placement at least 0.5” from either edge of rafter. Providing this drawing and specifying a rafter edge finding tool bolstered our case. If you want to look at the docs contact me off-line. Good luck to you. William Miller www.millersolar.com > On Aug 4, 2020, at 3:45 PM, Ken Schaal wrote: > >  > On the past I've had plan reviewers object to any hole or lag into rafters, especially trusses, claiming it voided warranty...any thoughts? > Ken Schaal > > > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020, 5:45 PM Jeremy Coxon wrote: >> We have tried all manner of gadgets over the years and haven’t found anything more accurate than a hammer and a tuned (experienced) ear. Gentle taps (so as to not damage roof) are all that’s needed. We also have a 12” piece of solid #10 copper in each tool belt for those tricky roofs where rafter spacing isn’t consistent or there are sistered rafters for long spans. Insert the wire thru a test hole, bend into a U shape, then rotate to find exact location of rafter, mark with chalk, then go to town. >> >> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP >> Certified MWBE >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> > On Aug 4, 2020, at 5:34 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: >> > >> > Re: Flir One for Smart Phones (Jason Szumlanski) >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 12:57:11 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 09:57:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rafter finding tool In-Reply-To: References: <702556251.391246.1596565146861.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <702556251.391246.1596565146861@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Here is one tool I’ve heard good things about but haven’t used due to its cost. https://www.tools-plus.com/bosch-d-tect150.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwjqT5BRAPEiwAJlBuBdm0kOK0NaHB6538vIe8z0wTQcCvOw_klWeKGxelJTmtIh9YQQZa2xoCrLQQAvD_BwE Jay > On Aug 4, 2020, at 1:41 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I have a Flir One and tested it extensively on Android. > > It works great in Florida in the morning when there is a big temperature differential, but only good enough to get a general idea of location and truss direction. As soon as the roof surface heats up and the attic temperature stabilizes, it's completely useless. I abandoned the whole idea. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 2:19 PM Solar Energy Solutions > wrote: > We have spent a lifetime hoping, searching, dreaming of an easy and affordable means of finding roof rafters. Has anyone used the Flir One for smart phones with any kind of success to accomplish this task??? > > P.S. We are well aware of how inexpensive hammers are! > > > Andrew Koyaanisqatsi > President > Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. > The BRIGHT CHOICE > Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors > move towards an environmentally sustainable future. > 503-238-4502 > www.SolarEnergyOregon.com _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at sesre.com Wed Aug 5 14:44:21 2020 From: matt at sesre.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 18:44:21 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rafter finding tool In-Reply-To: References: <702556251.391246.1596565146861.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <702556251.391246.1596565146861@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I purchased one of these about a decade ago to find rafters. It doesn’t work. Irregularly, non-repeatable locations were given with each pass. I still advocate sending someone into an attic to measure prior to drilling any holes. That obviously doesn’t work on all roofs. Matt Matt Partymiller General Manager Solar Energy Solutions, LLC 877-312-7456 matt at sesre.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 12:57 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] rafter finding tool Here is one tool I’ve heard good things about but haven’t used due to its cost. https://www.tools-plus.com/bosch-d-tect150.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwjqT5BRAPEiwAJlBuBdm0kOK0NaHB6538vIe8z0wTQcCvOw_klWeKGxelJTmtIh9YQQZa2xoCrLQQAvD_BwE Jay On Aug 4, 2020, at 1:41 PM, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: I have a Flir One and tested it extensively on Android. It works great in Florida in the morning when there is a big temperature differential, but only good enough to get a general idea of location and truss direction. As soon as the roof surface heats up and the attic temperature stabilizes, it's completely useless. I abandoned the whole idea. Jason Szumlanski On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 2:19 PM Solar Energy Solutions > wrote: We have spent a lifetime hoping, searching, dreaming of an easy and affordable means of finding roof rafters. Has anyone used the Flir One for smart phones with any kind of success to accomplish this task??? P.S. We are well aware of how inexpensive hammers are! Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future. 503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [https://mailtrack.io/trace/mail/2e5d72c50d34aa40249b89c998c3a5abd54d22ab.png?u=1613865] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Aug 5 14:44:26 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 14:44:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rafter finding tool In-Reply-To: References: <702556251.391246.1596565146861.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <702556251.391246.1596565146861@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Tried, tested, doesn't do well. It works marginally on bare peel & stick underlayments, but through shingles we had very poor results. Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 2:20 PM jay wrote: > Here is one tool I’ve heard good things about but haven’t used due to its > cost. > > > https://www.tools-plus.com/bosch-d-tect150.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwjqT5BRAPEiwAJlBuBdm0kOK0NaHB6538vIe8z0wTQcCvOw_klWeKGxelJTmtIh9YQQZa2xoCrLQQAvD_BwE > > > Jay > > On Aug 4, 2020, at 1:41 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > I have a Flir One and tested it extensively on Android. > > It works great in Florida in the morning when there is a big temperature > differential, but only good enough to get a general idea of location and > truss direction. As soon as the roof surface heats up and the attic > temperature stabilizes, it's completely useless. I abandoned the whole idea. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 2:19 PM Solar Energy Solutions < > solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com> wrote: > >> We have spent a lifetime hoping, searching, dreaming of an easy and >> affordable means of finding roof rafters. Has anyone used the Flir One for >> smart phones with any kind of success to accomplish this task??? >> >> P.S. We are well aware of how inexpensive hammers are! >> >> >> *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* >> *President* >> >> >> *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.The BRIGHT CHOICE* >> *Since 1987,* >> * helping you and your Portland neighborsmove** towards an >> environmentally sustainable future.* >> >> *503-238-4502www.SolarEnergyOregon.com >> >> * >> _______________________________________________ >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Aug 5 14:45:41 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 14:45:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Austin, TX Installer Message-ID: Please contact me off-list if you install gird-tied systems in Austin or know of a reputable dealer. I have a good client from Southwest Florida that just moved there and is looking for solar. Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Wed Aug 5 19:13:54 2020 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 13:13:54 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Message-ID: <016f01d66b7e$180720e0$481562a0$@com> Hi all, Does anyone know whether Aquion is still around and producing product with that unique saltwater electrolyte after being purchased for cheap cheap by Chinese investors three years ago? Thanks, marco Rebellion logo --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2454 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Aug 5 19:48:02 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2020 19:48:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, A bank of Aquion batteries has 5 out of 8 that can not carry any load without dropping down to a couple of volts. One battery is leaking. Three batteries seem to be working. Has anyone experienced this before? Is massive failure common to Aquion battery banks? Thank you, Drake Athens Electric -- From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 21:33:45 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 18:33:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1D141697-7DF1-4EC0-A7D9-719FF52FCDDB@gmail.com> Hi Drake, Unfortunately yes this is becoming a common problem And worse there is really nothing you can do. Company is gone The new company that formed from the remains of Aquion has a new different battery which is different enough I’ve been told they are not compatible. And they are not dealing with the old aquion for warranty. So really it seems that total swap out is your only option. Here is the only info I could find. https://www.bluesky-energy.eu/en/greenrock-home-2/ Good luck Jay > On Aug 5, 2020, at 5:32 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > A bank of Aquion batteries has 5 out of 8 that can not carry any load without dropping down to a couple of volts. One battery is leaking. Three batteries seem to be working. > > Has anyone experienced this before? Is massive failure common to Aquion battery banks? > > Thank you, > > Drake > Athens Electric > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 08:02:43 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 08:02:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion In-Reply-To: <1D141697-7DF1-4EC0-A7D9-719FF52FCDDB@gmail.com> References: <1D141697-7DF1-4EC0-A7D9-719FF52FCDDB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Drake, About a year ago I inherited two different off-grid customers with existing/ failing Aquion battery banks. Higher discharge rate seemed to be the prognosis. One system had 12 batteries and only 4 could hold under load. Both battery banks eventually had to be replaced with LFP batteries and the customers are much happier now. Unfortunately, my experiences with Aquion have been negative and I would not suggest using them. Best, Chris On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 10:22 PM Jay wrote: > Hi Drake, > > Unfortunately yes this is becoming a common problem > > And worse there is really nothing you can do. Company is gone > > The new company that formed from the remains of Aquion has a new different > battery which is different enough I’ve been told they are not compatible. > And they are not dealing with the old aquion for warranty. > > So really it seems that total swap out is your only option. > > Here is the only info I could find. > > https://www.bluesky-energy.eu/en/greenrock-home-2/ > > Good luck > > Jay > > > On Aug 5, 2020, at 5:32 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > A bank of Aquion batteries has 5 out of 8 that can not carry any load > without dropping down to a couple of volts. One battery is leaking. Three > batteries seem to be working. > > Has anyone experienced this before? Is massive failure common to Aquion > battery banks? > > Thank you, > > Drake > Athens Electric > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emerkel15 at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 12:38:13 2020 From: emerkel15 at gmail.com (Evan M) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:38:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 230.95 GFP Message-ID: Hi all, Looking at a project with a 1000A fused disconnect at the POI connecting on the supply side of an existing service. I’m curious if there’s a general consensus in the industry on whether the requirements of 230.95 would apply here and whether best-practice (or requirement) would dictate use of an LSIG breaker instead of the disco. I know some will say that this is a “supply side connection” and not a service so 230 doesn’t apply. This would also introduce some other oddities like connecting a PV system behind GFP, not allowed by 705.32, though I believe the exception to 705.32 would apply since it’s a dedicated GFP for the second source. Thanks in advance! Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun Aug 9 13:12:46 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2020 13:12:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery Message-ID: <729512df78bb46eaa633219060f25acd@redwoodalliance.org> Hello Wrenches, What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? Thanks, Drake Athens Electric -- From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 15:02:28 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 12:02:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: <729512df78bb46eaa633219060f25acd@redwoodalliance.org> References: <729512df78bb46eaa633219060f25acd@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery systems, best battery you will install. Jerry On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? > > Thanks, > > Drake > Athens Electric > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Aug 9 16:01:35 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2020 13:01:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: References: <729512df78bb46eaa633219060f25acd@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: My favorite are Discover AES and Fortress Power. They both communicate open loop with Schaner Electric. The best battery I have installed as of this date. Always like Surette and US battery for FLA. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 12:02:28 -0700, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery systems, best battery you will install. Jerry On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM wrote: Hello Wrenches, What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? Thanks, Drake Athens Electric -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [8] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [4] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Ken at commonwealthsolar.com Sun Aug 9 16:10:04 2020 From: Ken at commonwealthsolar.com (Ken Schaal) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 16:10:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: References: <729512df78bb46eaa633219060f25acd@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Any thoughts on Kilovault that Morningstar is teaming up with? Time for me to replace my 10 yr old. Deka AGMs. Not many outages, mostly float. No TOU rates. Net metered. Thanks Ken Schaal CommonWealth Solar On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 4:01 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > My favorite are Discover AES and Fortress Power. They both communicate > open loop with Schaner Electric. The best battery I have installed as of > this date. Always like Surette and US battery for FLA. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 12:02:28 -0700, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery systems, > best battery you will install. > Jerry > > On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM > wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> Athens Electric >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sun Aug 9 16:31:21 2020 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 13:31:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: References: <729512df78bb46eaa633219060f25acd@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <3c162340-bca1-22a7-9a42-e702afbb74ba@berkeleysolar.com> I looked at this and decided on a new set of Rolls flooded lead calcium for my grid-tied backup system. On 8/9/2020 1:10 PM, Ken Schaal wrote: >  Any thoughts on Kilovault that Morningstar is teaming up with? > Time for me to replace my 10 yr old. Deka AGMs. > Not many outages, mostly float. No TOU rates. Net metered. > Thanks > Ken Schaal > CommonWealth Solar > > On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 4:01 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > wrote: > > My favorite are Discover AES and Fortress Power. They both > communicate open loop with Schaner Electric. The best battery I > have installed as of this date. Always like Surette and US battery > for FLA. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 12:02:28 -0700, Jerry Shafer > > wrote: > >> Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery >> systems, best battery you will install. >> Jerry >> >> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM >> > > wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> Athens Electric >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 17:33:01 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 14:33:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: <729512df78bb46eaa633219060f25acd@redwoodalliance.org> References: <729512df78bb46eaa633219060f25acd@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <5949F688-6910-440A-8F2A-B156D97F7FC5@gmail.com> HI Drake, I think it really depends on what inverter you have, what the size is, what features you want and why do you want lithium? For example to me, as they are black boxes, I will only use one that has a physical external monitor, not only a web based, which at this point is pretty much Discover. Also Discover is the only battery that actually has a closed loop, ie it actually communicates with the inverter control system. Currently that is SolARk and schneider. And Discover is the only one of the more common popular batteries that is an actual battery OEM and its a big OEM that has been around for something like 75 years. Simpliphi is the easiest drop it replacement. No monitoring, but its sealed so no mice/rodents/bug issues, no comm to inverter. Blue Planet is too much hype to me, only has internet based monitoring, is on open cabinet which I worry about the issues above, no communication to inverter. I do like that it is a modular approach so its lighter to assemble. There are a number of others too. Before I spend tens of thousands of someones money I always check to see how long the company has been in biz, what their size/$ etc. And I look to see how the corporate structure is set up, ie how big is the tech department? Look at Blue Planet for example, big list of names, only 1 tech person. Good luck with the wild west of batteries, Jay > On Aug 9, 2020, at 10:12 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? > > Thanks, > > Drake > Athens Electric > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun Aug 9 14:25:24 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2020 14:25:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: <729512df78bb46eaa633219060f25acd@redwoodalliance.org> References: <729512df78bb46eaa633219060f25acd@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: P.S. The system consists of an old Outback FX inverter and an MX60, with a 2600 W array. --- On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? > > Thanks, > > Drake > Athens Electric > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org From vtsolar at icloud.com Sun Aug 9 18:54:22 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2020 18:54:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: References: <729512df78bb46eaa633219060f25acd@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or Blue Planet) older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion LFP batteries. The newer FXR series are. Considering one only needs to change slightly charge voltages, duration, etc. to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery why Outback states that older FX inverters are not compatible.  Outback  states this in a tech note about using LI batteries. On 8/9/2020 5:40:39 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: P.S. The system consists of an old Outback FX inverter and an MX60, with a 2600 W array. --- On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? > > Thanks, > > Drake > Athens Electric > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 19:30:33 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 16:30:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: References: <729512df78bb46eaa633219060f25acd@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: I have outback FX systems operating for years now, the lab l had used FX's and midnite systems, it does need to be 48 volts nominal. Jerry On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 4:13 PM Kirk Herander wrote: > For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or Blue > Planet) older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion LFP batteries. > The newer FXR series are. > Considering one only needs to change slightly charge voltages, duration, > etc. to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery why Outback states that > older FX inverters are not compatible. > Outback states this in a tech note about using LI batteries. > > On 8/9/2020 5:40:39 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org < > drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: > P.S. The system consists of an old Outback FX inverter and an MX60, with > a 2600 W array. > > --- > > > On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Drake > > Athens Electric > > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 19:25:05 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 16:25:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kirk, Can you explain why it wouldnt work? Just setpoints. Jay > On Aug 9, 2020, at 4:13 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > >  > For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or Blue Planet) older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion LFP batteries. The newer FXR series are. > Considering one only needs to change slightly charge voltages, duration, etc. to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery why Outback states that older FX inverters are not compatible. > Outback states this in a tech note about using LI batteries. >> On 8/9/2020 5:40:39 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >> >> P.S. The system consists of an old Outback FX inverter and an MX60, with >> a 2600 W array. >> >> --- >> >> >> On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >> > Hello Wrenches, >> > >> > What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Drake >> > Athens Electric >> > >> > -- >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Aug 9 20:47:50 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 18:47:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: References: <729512df78bb46eaa633219060f25acd@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <94e8e097-019d-8ae1-11da-808d49328f98@solarray.com> My favorite right now is Simpliphi: company has been around since 2002, and as the name implies, they are simple to install.  There is no external monitoring or comm, just an output breaker on each battery that can be reset if the internal BMS ever shuts down for any reason.  We've done several sets in new systems, and as battery replacements with older Outback equipment.  Simpliphi provides a nice programming cheat sheet for all the brands of inverters and charge controllers. For smaller systems, the LiFe Blue batteries are great.  They have the best monitoring (simple blue tooth to a free phone app) and they are the only Li+ battery that has a solution for cold weather charging that I'm aware of.  Other battery companies have just given us the shoulder shrug and tell us to install the battery in a conditioned space.  Not a good answer for many off grid systems in the mountains. I'm not a huge fan of Blue Planet; if their battery is over discharged, it requires a 48 v dark start.  I also did not find their enclosure to be NEC code compliant to connect conduit to. We had to modify it to allow a 2" KO. Cable routing and connections internally are also awkward. Its just a computer rack cabinet repurposed for batteries, but it does have pretty blue Lights (which we disconnected at the customer's request)  Finally the comm system is based on the E-gage, which was never designed for off grid and depends on a constant router and internet connection to monitor.  That is another deal killer for some remote projects.  Internet connectivity is great when available, just the monitoring can't be dependent on that connection.  Their tech support was good though. Beware that Schneider inverters LBCO can't be programmed over 48v, which is a deal killer for most Li+ batteries.  We currently have a system that we are adding a relay to shut off AC output, that will be triggered by the charge controller.  That is just an amazingly kludgy solution for a really dumb problem: not allowing higher settings of the LBCO.  Until Schneider releases a firmware update, they are not even being considered for future projects. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/9/20 5:30 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > I have outback FX systems operating for years now, the lab l had used > FX's and midnite systems, it does need to be 48 volts nominal. > Jerry > > On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 4:13 PM Kirk Herander > wrote: > > For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or > Blue Planet) older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion > LFP batteries. The newer FXR series are. > Considering one only needs to change slightly charge voltages, > duration, etc. to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery why > Outback states that older FX inverters are not compatible. > Outback  states this in a tech note about using LI batteries. >> >> On 8/9/2020 5:40:39 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >> >> > > wrote: >> >> P.S. The system consists of an old Outback FX inverter and an >> MX60, with >> a 2600 W array. >> >> --- >> >> >> On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >> wrote: >> > Hello Wrenches, >> > >> > What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Drake >> > Athens Electric >> > >> > -- >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 22:32:06 2020 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 21:32:06 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: References: <729512df78bb46eaa633219060f25acd@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Kilovault Pl AGM for backup power, i am replacing C&D 15 year old backup power batteries now much cheaper when cycling is infrequent. By the way most AGM need cycling. On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 3:10 PM Ken Schaal wrote: > Any thoughts on Kilovault that Morningstar is teaming up with? > Time for me to replace my 10 yr old. Deka AGMs. > Not many outages, mostly float. No TOU rates. Net metered. > Thanks > Ken Schaal > CommonWealth Solar > > On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 4:01 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > >> My favorite are Discover AES and Fortress Power. They both communicate >> open loop with Schaner Electric. The best battery I have installed as of >> this date. Always like Surette and US battery for FLA. >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 12:02:28 -0700, Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >> Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery systems, >> best battery you will install. >> Jerry >> >> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM >> wrote: >> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Drake >>> Athens Electric >>> >>> -- >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Mon Aug 10 08:24:01 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 08:24:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/lithium_app_note.pdf [http://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/lithium_app_note.pdf] This doesn't explain it, just omits older FX inverters from the Outback compatible list. In terms of programming, I did not use Blue Planet's BI setpoints verbatim in the BI 2.0 (48v) system I set up with FXR inverters. They are definitely to be used as guidelines. I was able to get the backup genny to start almost PRECISELY at an 8% SOC and turn of at 70% according to the e-gauge, and easily do further tweaking remotely through the Mate3s via REoptics. I can share my setpoints if anyone is interested. This is a remote site, at least 2 miles from grid power, but I have reliable internet using a Verizon jetpack cell modem/router (and you can also pull and use the verizon Sim card in 3rd party verizon-compatible devices). In this application, the charging efficiency(and ability to use the entire kwh capacity of the bank) is outstanding compared to the old wet cell LA bank. BI-LFP bank has been installed 6 mos and genny has run a total of 55 hrs, compared to at least 250+ same time last year.  I will say that Blue Planet definitely needs to expand and re-write their documentation. You will find gaps for sure which might leave you head-scratching the first time around. IMO this especially relates to battery combiner box design and recommendation. If you have more than one cabinet they need to parallel together safely using off-the-shelf components, properly rated and protected. Especially in the high voltage system I am about to install, 1MWH @ 850 vdc. They really ought to sell a listed combiner with the system. I have almost weekly tech meetings with them getting all the details straight. On 8/9/2020 8:30:04 PM, Jay wrote: Hi Kirk, Can you explain why it wouldnt work? Just setpoints.  Jay On Aug 9, 2020, at 4:13 PM, Kirk Herander wrote:  For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or Blue Planet) older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion LFP batteries. The newer FXR series are. Considering one only needs to change slightly charge voltages, duration, etc. to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery why Outback states that older FX inverters are not compatible.  Outback  states this in a tech note about using LI batteries. On 8/9/2020 5:40:39 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: P.S. The system consists of an old Outback FX inverter and an MX60, with a 2600 W array. --- On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? > > Thanks, > > Drake > Athens Electric > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Aug 10 10:03:56 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 07:03:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: <94e8e097-019d-8ae1-11da-808d49328f98@solarray.com> References: <729512df78bb46eaa633219060f25acd@redwoodalliance.org> <94e8e097-019d-8ae1-11da-808d49328f98@solarray.com> Message-ID: <14211f7ebc581e35f2e9a0c6a1b9820f@127.0.0.1> Hey Ray, Your comment on Schneider LBCO relates to which brand? Sympliyfi? Curious because I will send this in again. I did last time and they said to make sure the config person knows that you can also set the default LBCO hysteresis from 2V to 10V and the LBCO time from 60 seconds up to 600 seconds. Zero probes here for me with Discover AES and Fortress with Schneider electronics. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 18:47:50 -0600, Ray wrote: My favorite right now is Simpliphi: company has been around since 2002, and as the name implies, they are simple to install. There is no external monitoring or comm, just an output breaker on each battery that can be reset if the internal BMS ever shuts down for any reason. We've done several sets in new systems, and as battery replacements with older Outback equipment. Simpliphi provides a nice programming cheat sheet for all the brands of inverters and charge controllers. For smaller systems, the LiFe Blue batteries are great. They have the best monitoring (simple blue tooth to a free phone app) and they are the only Li+ battery that has a solution for cold weather charging that I'm aware of. Other battery companies have just given us the shoulder shrug and tell us to install the battery in a conditioned space. Not a good answer for many off grid systems in the mountains. I'm not a huge fan of Blue Planet; if their battery is over discharged, it requires a 48 v dark start. I also did not find their enclosure to be NEC code compliant to connect conduit to. We had to modify it to allow a 2" KO. Cable routing and connections internally are also awkward. Its just a computer rack cabinet repurposed for batteries, but it does have pretty blue Lights (which we disconnected at the customer's request) Finally the comm system is based on the E-gage, which was never designed for off grid and depends on a constant router and internet connection to monitor. That is another deal killer for some remote projects. Internet connectivity is great when available, just the monitoring can't be dependent on that connection. Their tech support was good though. Beware that Schneider inverters LBCO can't be programmed over 48v, which is a deal killer for most Li+ batteries. We currently have a system that we are adding a relay to shut off AC output, that will be triggered by the charge controller. That is just an amazingly kludgy solution for a really dumb problem: not allowing higher settings of the LBCO. Until Schneider releases a firmware update, they are not even being considered for future projects. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/9/20 5:30 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: I have outback FX systems operating for years now, the lab l had used FX's and midnite systems, it does need to be 48 volts nominal. Jerry On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 4:13 PM Kirk Herander wrote: For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or Blue Planet) older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion LFP batteries. The newer FXR series are. Considering one only needs to change slightly charge voltages, duration, etc. to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery why Outback states that older FX inverters are not compatible. Outback states this in a tech note about using LI batteries. On 8/9/2020 5:40:39 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [4] wrote: P.S. The system consists of an old Outback FX inverter and an MX60, with a 2600 W array. --- On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [6] wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? > > Thanks, > > Drake > Athens Electric > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [16] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [20] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [21] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [22] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [23] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [24] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [25] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [26] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:vtsolar at icloud.com [4] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [5] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [6] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [17] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [18] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [21] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [22] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [23] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [24] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [25] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [26] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Aug 10 15:40:22 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 13:40:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: <14211f7ebc581e35f2e9a0c6a1b9820f@127.0.0.1> References: <729512df78bb46eaa633219060f25acd@redwoodalliance.org> <94e8e097-019d-8ae1-11da-808d49328f98@solarray.com> <14211f7ebc581e35f2e9a0c6a1b9820f@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <8d17d4c8-82f9-925a-3980-5f0ff380e5dd@solarray.com> It relates specifically to Simpliphi, but all brands of Li+ need much higher LBCO set points compared to Lead acid. Hysteresis and time don't fix the fact that once the batteries shut off before the inverter, the entire system is inoperable, with no charging available from the PV.  It creates an absolute failure, that requires a manual reset, and there is no reason for it.  It should be an easy firmware fix to allow LBCO to go above 48.  We've used other brands of inverters and had excellent results with extremely high efficiency charging, noticeably reduced gen run time, etc. We can set the autostart on the generator to start higher, but as soon as there is a problem with the generator, we're snow shoeing in to save the house.  Already done it 3 times this past Winter, so no, this is not a hypothetical problem. Also, I haven't mentioned Schneider's abysmal tech support throughout this problem.  Zero on site phone support, but we might get a call back a week later, and then the tech can only read from the manual: something we've already done. I dropped Schneider many years ago when they brought out the terrible TR line of inverters. Those had 100% customer dissatisfaction.  They have yet to regain my support, and now after this latest experience, I have to refuse to even service systems with Schneider equipment. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/10/20 8:03 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Hey Ray, > > Your comment on Schneider LBCO relates to which brand? Sympliyfi? > Curious because I will send this in again. I did last time and they > said to make sure the config person knows that you can also set the > default LBCO hysteresis from 2V to 10V and the LBCO time from 60 > seconds up to 600 seconds. > > Zero probes here for me with Discover AES and Fortress with Schneider > electronics. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 18:47:50 -0600, Ray wrote: > >> My favorite right now is Simpliphi: company has been around since >> 2002, and as the name implies, they are simple to install.  There is >> no external monitoring or comm, just an output breaker on each >> battery that can be reset if the internal BMS ever shuts down for any >> reason.  We've done several sets in new systems, and as battery >> replacements with older Outback equipment.  Simpliphi provides a nice >> programming cheat sheet for all the brands of inverters and charge >> controllers. >> >> For smaller systems, the LiFe Blue batteries are great.  They have >> the best monitoring (simple blue tooth to a free phone app)  and they >> are the only Li+ battery that has a solution for cold weather >> charging that I'm aware of.  Other battery companies have just given >> us the shoulder shrug and tell us to install the battery in a >> conditioned space.  Not a good answer for many off grid systems in >> the mountains. >> >> I'm not a huge fan of Blue Planet; if their battery is over >> discharged, it requires a 48 v dark start.  I also did not find their >> enclosure to be NEC code compliant to connect conduit to.  We had to >> modify it to allow a 2" KO. Cable routing and connections internally >> are also awkward. Its just a computer rack cabinet repurposed for >> batteries, but it does have pretty blue Lights (which we disconnected >> at the customer's request)  Finally the comm system is based on the >> E-gage, which was never designed for off grid and depends on a >> constant router and internet connection to monitor.  That is another >> deal killer for some remote projects.  Internet connectivity is great >> when available, just the monitoring can't be dependent on that >> connection.  Their tech support was good though. >> >> Beware that Schneider inverters LBCO can't be programmed over 48v, >> which is a deal killer for most Li+ batteries.  We currently have a >> system that we are adding a relay to shut off AC output, that will be >> triggered by the charge controller. That is just an amazingly kludgy >> solution for a really dumb problem: not allowing higher settings of >> the LBCO.  Until Schneider releases a firmware update, they are not >> even being considered for future projects. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 8/9/20 5:30 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>> I have outback FX systems operating for years now, the lab l had >>> used FX's and midnite systems, it does need to be 48 volts nominal. >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 4:13 PM Kirk Herander >> > wrote: >>> >>> For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or >>> Blue Planet) older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion >>> LFP batteries. The newer FXR series are. >>> Considering one only needs to change slightly charge voltages, >>> duration, etc. to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery why >>> Outback states that older FX inverters are not compatible. >>> Outback  states this in a tech note about using LI batteries. >>> >>> On 8/9/2020 5:40:39 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >>> >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> P.S. The system consists of an old Outback FX inverter and >>> an MX60, with >>> a 2600 W array. >>> >>> --- >>> >>> >>> On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >>> wrote: >>> > Hello Wrenches, >>> > >>> > What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid >>> system? >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > >>> > Drake >>> > Athens Electric >>> > >>> > -- >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> > >>> > List-Archive: >>> > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Aug 10 16:24:57 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 13:24:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: <8d17d4c8-82f9-925a-3980-5f0ff380e5dd@solarray.com> References: <729512df78bb46eaa633219060f25acd@redwoodalliance.org> <94e8e097-019d-8ae1-11da-808d49328f98@solarray.com> <14211f7ebc581e35f2e9a0c6a1b9820f@127.0.0.1> <8d17d4c8-82f9-925a-3980-5f0ff380e5dd@solarray.com> Message-ID: I have forwarded this to Schneider. They gave me a case number in 30 minutes. I disagree that "all" Li batteries need this. Obviously simplyphi does need LBCO to be increased. The LBCO delay does help at 10 minutes from 2 minutes default BTW. I have not had your issues with tech support. Certainly room to improve but not much different than Outback over the long haul. Let us agree to disagree. I find Schneider to be the best for my requirements, 2nd is Outback. I do not use simplyphi. They are just too small of an offgrid battery and easy to damage with XW and Radian. My last on this subject. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 13:40:22 -0600, Ray wrote: It relates specifically to Simpliphi, but all brands of Li+ need much higher LBCO set points compared to Lead acid. Hysteresis and time don't fix the fact that once the batteries shut off before the inverter, the entire system is inoperable, with no charging available from the PV. It creates an absolute failure, that requires a manual reset, and there is no reason for it. It should be an easy firmware fix to allow LBCO to go above 48. We've used other brands of inverters and had excellent results with extremely high efficiency charging, noticeably reduced gen run time, etc. We can set the autostart on the generator to start higher, but as soon as there is a problem with the generator, we're snow shoeing in to save the house. Already done it 3 times this past Winter, so no, this is not a hypothetical problem. Also, I haven't mentioned Schneider's abysmal tech support throughout this problem. Zero on site phone support, but we might get a call back a week later, and then the tech can only read from the manual: something we've already done. I dropped Schneider many years ago when they brought out the terrible TR line of inverters. Those had 100% customer dissatisfaction. They have yet to regain my support, and now after this latest experience, I have to refuse to even service systems with Schneider equipment. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/10/20 8:03 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Hey Ray, Your comment on Schneider LBCO relates to which brand? Sympliyfi? Curious because I will send this in again. I did last time and they said to make sure the config person knows that you can also set the default LBCO hysteresis from 2V to 10V and the LBCO time from 60 seconds up to 600 seconds. Zero probes here for me with Discover AES and Fortress with Schneider electronics. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [4] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 18:47:50 -0600, Ray [5] wrote: My favorite right now is Simpliphi: company has been around since 2002, and as the name implies, they are simple to install. There is no external monitoring or comm, just an output breaker on each battery that can be reset if the internal BMS ever shuts down for any reason. We've done several sets in new systems, and as battery replacements with older Outback equipment. Simpliphi provides a nice programming cheat sheet for all the brands of inverters and charge controllers. For smaller systems, the LiFe Blue batteries are great. They have the best monitoring (simple blue tooth to a free phone app) and they are the only Li+ battery that has a solution for cold weather charging that I'm aware of. Other battery companies have just given us the shoulder shrug and tell us to install the battery in a conditioned space. Not a good answer for many off grid systems in the mountains. I'm not a huge fan of Blue Planet; if their battery is over discharged, it requires a 48 v dark start. I also did not find their enclosure to be NEC code compliant to connect conduit to. We had to modify it to allow a 2" KO. Cable routing and connections internally are also awkward. Its just a computer rack cabinet repurposed for batteries, but it does have pretty blue Lights (which we disconnected at the customer's request) Finally the comm system is based on the E-gage, which was never designed for off grid and depends on a constant router and internet connection to monitor. That is another deal killer for some remote projects. Internet connectivity is great when available, just the monitoring can't be dependent on that connection. Their tech support was good though. Beware that Schneider inverters LBCO can't be programmed over 48v, which is a deal killer for most Li+ batteries. We currently have a system that we are adding a relay to shut off AC output, that will be triggered by the charge controller. That is just an amazingly kludgy solution for a really dumb problem: not allowing higher settings of the LBCO. Until Schneider releases a firmware update, they are not even being considered for future projects. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/9/20 5:30 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: I have outback FX systems operating for years now, the lab l had used FX's and midnite systems, it does need to be 48 volts nominal. Jerry On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 4:13 PM Kirk Herander wrote: For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or Blue Planet) older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion LFP batteries. The newer FXR series are. Considering one only needs to change slightly charge voltages, duration, etc. to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery why Outback states that older FX inverters are not compatible. Outback states this in a tech note about using LI batteries. On 8/9/2020 5:40:39 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [7] wrote: P.S. The system consists of an old Outback FX inverter and an MX60, with a 2600 W array. --- On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [9] wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? > > Thanks, > > Drake > Athens Electric > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [14] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [18] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [19] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [20] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [21] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [22] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [23] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [24] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [25] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [26] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [27] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [28] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [29] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [30] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [31] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [32] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [33] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [34] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [5] mailto:ray at solarray.com [6] mailto:vtsolar at icloud.com [7] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [8] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [9] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [10] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [15] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [19] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [20] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [21] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [22] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [23] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [24] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [25] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [26] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [27] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [28] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [29] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [30] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [31] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [32] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [33] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [34] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Aug 10 16:47:49 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 14:47:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: References: <729512df78bb46eaa633219060f25acd@redwoodalliance.org> <94e8e097-019d-8ae1-11da-808d49328f98@solarray.com> <14211f7ebc581e35f2e9a0c6a1b9820f@127.0.0.1> <8d17d4c8-82f9-925a-3980-5f0ff380e5dd@solarray.com> Message-ID: <1d127ec2-06f4-ccdb-08d5-97213d180f76@solarray.com> Appreciate forwarding this to Schneider.  So you never had any issues programming their monitoring system or getting it connected to the internet via the customer's router? What is the LBCO recommended for the Li+ batteries you are using?  Default on many inverters for FLA is 42 or 44 volts, so I didn't realize any Li+ batteries could work correctly that low. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/10/20 2:24 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > I have forwarded this to Schneider. They gave me a case number in 30 > minutes.  I disagree that "all" Li batteries need this. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 16:44:03 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 13:44:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: References: <729512df78bb46eaa633219060f25acd@redwoodalliance.org> <94e8e097-019d-8ae1-11da-808d49328f98@solarray.com> <14211f7ebc581e35f2e9a0c6a1b9820f@127.0.0.1> <8d17d4c8-82f9-925a-3980-5f0ff380e5dd@solarray.com> Message-ID: <50FD3CB3-230B-407B-8DC4-B6D2DEE0BEE1@gmail.com> Ah that was the metric I didn’t understand the 2-10, is minutes. got it j > On Aug 10, 2020, at 1:24 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > I have forwarded this to Schneider. They gave me a case number in 30 minutes. I disagree that "all" Li batteries need this. Obviously simplyphi does need LBCO to be increased. The LBCO delay does help at 10 minutes from 2 minutes default BTW. > > I have not had your issues with tech support. Certainly room to improve but not much different than Outback over the long haul. Let us agree to disagree. I find Schneider to be the best for my requirements, 2nd is Outback. I do not use simplyphi. They are just too small of an offgrid battery and easy to damage with XW and Radian. My last on this subject. > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 13:40:22 -0600, Ray wrote: > >> It relates specifically to Simpliphi, but all brands of Li+ need much higher LBCO set points compared to Lead acid. Hysteresis and time don't fix the fact that once the batteries shut off before the inverter, the entire system is inoperable, with no charging available from the PV. It creates an absolute failure, that requires a manual reset, and there is no reason for it. It should be an easy firmware fix to allow LBCO to go above 48. We've used other brands of inverters and had excellent results with extremely high efficiency charging, noticeably reduced gen run time, etc. We can set the autostart on the generator to start higher, but as soon as there is a problem with the generator, we're snow shoeing in to save the house. Already done it 3 times this past Winter, so no, this is not a hypothetical problem. >> >> Also, I haven't mentioned Schneider's abysmal tech support throughout this problem. Zero on site phone support, but we might get a call back a week later, and then the tech can only read from the manual: something we've already done. I dropped Schneider many years ago when they brought out the terrible TR line of inverters. Those had 100% customer dissatisfaction. They have yet to regain my support, and now after this latest experience, I have to refuse to even service systems with Schneider equipment. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 8/10/20 8:03 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>> Hey Ray, >>> >>> Your comment on Schneider LBCO relates to which brand? Sympliyfi? Curious because I will send this in again. I did last time and they said to make sure the config person knows that you can also set the default LBCO hysteresis from 2V to 10V and the LBCO time from 60 seconds up to 600 seconds. >>> >>> Zero probes here for me with Discover AES and Fortress with Schneider electronics. >>> >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060 >>> On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 18:47:50 -0600, Ray wrote: >>> >>> My favorite right now is Simpliphi: company has been around since 2002, and as the name implies, they are simple to install. There is no external monitoring or comm, just an output breaker on each battery that can be reset if the internal BMS ever shuts down for any reason. We've done several sets in new systems, and as battery replacements with older Outback equipment. Simpliphi provides a nice programming cheat sheet for all the brands of inverters and charge controllers. >>> >>> For smaller systems, the LiFe Blue batteries are great. They have the best monitoring (simple blue tooth to a free phone app) and they are the only Li+ battery that has a solution for cold weather charging that I'm aware of. Other battery companies have just given us the shoulder shrug and tell us to install the battery in a conditioned space. Not a good answer for many off grid systems in the mountains. >>> >>> I'm not a huge fan of Blue Planet; if their battery is over discharged, it requires a 48 v dark start. I also did not find their enclosure to be NEC code compliant to connect conduit to. We had to modify it to allow a 2" KO. Cable routing and connections internally are also awkward. Its just a computer rack cabinet repurposed for batteries, but it does have pretty blue Lights (which we disconnected at the customer's request) Finally the comm system is based on the E-gage, which was never designed for off grid and depends on a constant router and internet connection to monitor. That is another deal killer for some remote projects. Internet connectivity is great when available, just the monitoring can't be dependent on that connection. Their tech support was good though. >>> >>> Beware that Schneider inverters LBCO can't be programmed over 48v, which is a deal killer for most Li+ batteries. We currently have a system that we are adding a relay to shut off AC output, that will be triggered by the charge controller. That is just an amazingly kludgy solution for a really dumb problem: not allowing higher settings of the LBCO. Until Schneider releases a firmware update, they are not even being considered for future projects. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> On 8/9/20 5:30 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>> I have outback FX systems operating for years now, the lab l had used FX's and midnite systems, it does need to be 48 volts nominal. >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 4:13 PM Kirk Herander > wrote: >>> For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or Blue Planet) older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion LFP batteries. The newer FXR series are. >>> Considering one only needs to change slightly charge voltages, duration, etc. to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery why Outback states that older FX inverters are not compatible. >>> Outback states this in a tech note about using LI batteries. >>> On 8/9/2020 5:40:39 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > wrote: >>> >>> P.S. The system consists of an old Outback FX inverter and an MX60, with >>> a 2600 W array. >>> >>> --- >>> >>> >>> On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >>> > Hello Wrenches, >>> > >>> > What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > >>> > Drake >>> > Athens Electric >>> > >>> > -- >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List-Archive: >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Aug 10 17:40:25 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 14:40:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: <<1d127ec2-06f4-ccdb-08d5-97213d180f76@solarray.com>> References: <729512df78bb46eaa633219060f25acd@redwoodalliance.org> <94e8e097-019d-8ae1-11da-808d49328f98@solarray.com> <14211f7ebc581e35f2e9a0c6a1b9820f@127.0.0.1> <8d17d4c8-82f9-925a-3980-5f0ff380e5dd@solarray.com> <1d127ec2-06f4-ccdb-08d5-97213d180f76@solarray.com> Message-ID: <94f31b4b778770b5588542a520e2be5d@127.0.0.1> Hi Ray, I guess it is not my last :) I attached AES battery. Fortress is similar. AES quickstart on Schneider is program the time and date for config. You do not need a computer as the SCP can be used. Both are closed loop BMS to inverter/charger/mppt on xw and csw. I am hoping Outback will do something like this. I have helped quite a few wrenches with getting the Insight monitoring going remotely. It is not any more difficult than optics which I run also. It is not easy, and the quickstart must be followed exactly. Attached a screen from 5 minutes back. It has been extremely reliable also. Below is the case. My guess as to why this takes so long is that it is a UL cert issue for Schneider. Cost quite a bit of money for the testing or to change the range of LBCO. My guess only. DATE: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 11:29:05 -0700 (PDT) FROM: "Solar Support EMEA (solar.support.emea at schneider-electric.com)" A new case was just created using On Line - CIB Tech Support Schneider Electric Industries SAS. Case Message:865xxxx LBCO max is 48 vdc, needs to be higher for some batteries like simplyphi. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 14:47:49 -0600, Ray wrote: Appreciate forwarding this to Schneider. So you never had any issues programming their monitoring system or getting it connected to the internet via the customer's router? What is the LBCO recommended for the Li+ batteries you are using? Default on many inverters for FLA is 42 or 44 volts, so I didn't realize any Li+ batteries could work correctly that low. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/10/20 2:24 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: aes1.PNG Type: image/png Size: 173515 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ci2.PNG Type: image/png Size: 81748 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Aug 10 18:50:47 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 16:50:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: <94f31b4b778770b5588542a520e2be5d@127.0.0.1> References: <729512df78bb46eaa633219060f25acd@redwoodalliance.org> <94e8e097-019d-8ae1-11da-808d49328f98@solarray.com> <14211f7ebc581e35f2e9a0c6a1b9820f@127.0.0.1> <8d17d4c8-82f9-925a-3980-5f0ff380e5dd@solarray.com> <1d127ec2-06f4-ccdb-08d5-97213d180f76@solarray.com> <94f31b4b778770b5588542a520e2be5d@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <4cd00390-ed81-8670-765e-0d22579f1646@solarray.com> I agree, the AES has a much friendlier voltage range.  Thanks for sharing, Dave.  I also do not use the RE Optics, I've moved away from Outback as well, after having issues with the FXR line, tech support, and wiring in the tiny enclosure that comes with the Radians.  Had decent luck with Magnum, but always room for improvement too.  Honestly, nothing now is that much better than the old Trace SW line, and that had plenty of its own issues. Still waiting for inverter comm to catch up with the rest of the world, and be a simple plug and play, connect via blue tooth, set all the parameters in a Windows/ easy to navigate screen with tech manuals all accessible right in the app's help menu........ Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/10/20 3:40 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > I guess it is not my last :)  I attached AES battery. Fortress is > similar. AES quickstart on Schneider is program the time and date for > config. You do not need a computer as the SCP can be used. Both are > closed loop BMS to inverter/charger/mppt on xw and csw. I am hoping > Outback will do something like this. > > I have helped quite a few wrenches with getting the Insight monitoring > going remotely. It is not any more difficult than optics which I run > also. It is not easy, and the quickstart must be followed exactly. > Attached a screen from 5 minutes back. It has been extremely reliable > also. > > Below is the case. My guess as to why this takes so long is that it is > a UL cert issue for Schneider. Cost quite a bit of money for the > testing or to change the range of LBCO. My guess only. > > Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 11:29:05 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Solar Support EMEA > (solar.support.emea at schneider-electric.com)" > > > > A new case was just created using On Line – CIB Tech Support Schneider > Electric Industries SAS. > > Case Message:865xxxx LBCO max is 48 vdc, needs to be higher for some > batteries like simplyphi. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 14:47:49 -0600, Ray wrote: > >> Appreciate forwarding this to Schneider.  So you never had any issues >> programming their monitoring system or getting it connected to the >> internet via the customer's router? >> >> What is the LBCO recommended for the Li+ batteries you are using?  >> Default on many inverters for FLA is 42 or 44 volts, so I didn't >> realize any Li+ batteries could work correctly that low. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 8/10/20 2:24 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Aug 10 19:14:22 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 16:14:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: <4cd00390-ed81-8670-765e-0d22579f1646@solarray.com> References: <729512df78bb46eaa633219060f25acd@redwoodalliance.org> <94e8e097-019d-8ae1-11da-808d49328f98@solarray.com> <14211f7ebc581e35f2e9a0c6a1b9820f@127.0.0.1> <8d17d4c8-82f9-925a-3980-5f0ff380e5dd@solarray.com> <1d127ec2-06f4-ccdb-08d5-97213d180f76@solarray.com> <94f31b4b778770b5588542a520e2be5d@127.0.0.1> <4cd00390-ed81-8670-765e-0d22579f1646@solarray.com> Message-ID: <41cf2241a603c579e6d8bb83ea39842d@127.0.0.1> I agree on the Trace and Xantrex SW's for offgrid. Bullet proof and easy to install. I could never go back though to not having the graphics that a networked system enables. Just to easy to look at a 24 hour battery graph and see that the battery charged. Also multiple banks can be looked at. The AES/Schneider is almost what you want as far as plug and play. Just enter time and date on SCP. No computer needed and SOC is shown on SCP, or out to insight like my previous insight screen. Almost 5 o'clock somewhere:) Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: bat sum.PNG Type: image/png Size: 72649 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Aug 10 17:05:10 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 17:05:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB#000US LCD Displays Message-ID: Does anyone know if the LCD displays can be replaced? I have a client with three SB6000US and one SB3000US all manufactured in 2007 and all four displays are shot. I'm not sure why it is so hard for SMA tech support to give me a simple answer on this. I just had a mind-melting hour-long phone call with them about this and the easiest currently-available replacement for an out-of-warranty SB6000US. I failed to get a straight answer on either question. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Aug 10 17:22:08 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 17:22:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB#000US LCD Displays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm zeroing in on an answer and will share when I get it. I sent an email at the recommendation of the first-line customer service rep. One person responded saying to call customer service (haha). A few minutes later another one said the cover needs to be replaced to maintain the NEMA 3R rating and gave me another email to get information on availability. On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 5:05 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Does anyone know if the LCD displays can be replaced? I have a client with > three SB6000US and one SB3000US all manufactured in 2007 and all four > displays are shot. I'm not sure why it is so hard for SMA tech support to > give me a simple answer on this. I just had a mind-melting hour-long phone > call with them about this and the easiest currently-available replacement > for an out-of-warranty SB6000US. I failed to get a straight answer > on either question. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 20:13:37 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 20:13:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB#000US LCD Displays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, Yes the LCD displays can be swapped out. I had an issue with one earlier this year on a SB6000US and SMA sent a replacement. Very easy to swap out. Good luck with tech support. -Chris On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 7:20 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I'm zeroing in on an answer and will share when I get it. I sent an email > at the recommendation of the first-line customer service rep. One person > responded saying to call customer service (haha). A few minutes later > another one said the cover needs to be replaced to maintain the NEMA > 3R rating and gave me another email to get information on availability. > > > > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 5:05 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Does anyone know if the LCD displays can be replaced? I have a client >> with three SB6000US and one SB3000US all manufactured in 2007 and all four >> displays are shot. I'm not sure why it is so hard for SMA tech support to >> give me a simple answer on this. I just had a mind-melting hour-long phone >> call with them about this and the easiest currently-available replacement >> for an out-of-warranty SB6000US. I failed to get a straight answer >> on either question. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at mountainpowersolutions.com Mon Aug 10 20:14:45 2020 From: steve at mountainpowersolutions.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 18:14:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB#000US LCD Displays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I replaced one about 2 years ago. SMA Sunny Island tech support just sent me a new one. Sent from my iPad > On Aug 10, 2020, at 3:05 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Does anyone know if the LCD displays can be replaced? I have a client with three SB6000US and one SB3000US all manufactured in 2007 and all four displays are shot. I'm not sure why it is so hard for SMA tech support to give me a simple answer on this. I just had a mind-melting hour-long phone call with them about this and the easiest currently-available replacement for an out-of-warranty SB6000US. I failed to get a straight answer on either question. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 20:23:19 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 17:23:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB#000US LCD Displays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is it the heat that damages them or UV light? Jay Peltz power. > On Aug 10, 2020, at 5:13 PM, Chris Sparadeo wrote: > >  > Jason, > > Yes the LCD displays can be swapped out. I had an issue with one earlier this year on a SB6000US and SMA sent a replacement. Very easy to swap out. Good luck with tech support. > > -Chris > >> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 7:20 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> I'm zeroing in on an answer and will share when I get it. I sent an email at the recommendation of the first-line customer service rep. One person responded saying to call customer service (haha). A few minutes later another one said the cover needs to be replaced to maintain the NEMA 3R rating and gave me another email to get information on availability. >> >> >> >> >>> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 5:05 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> Does anyone know if the LCD displays can be replaced? I have a client with three SB6000US and one SB3000US all manufactured in 2007 and all four displays are shot. I'm not sure why it is so hard for SMA tech support to give me a simple answer on this. I just had a mind-melting hour-long phone call with them about this and the easiest currently-available replacement for an out-of-warranty SB6000US. I failed to get a straight answer on either question. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 20:55:46 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 17:55:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kirk I would be interested in your amended programming with outback and blue planet Jerry On Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 6:43 AM Kirk Herander wrote: > http://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/lithium_app_note.pdf > > This doesn't explain it, just omits older FX inverters from the Outback > compatible list. > > In terms of programming, I did not use Blue Planet's BI setpoints verbatim > in the BI 2.0 (48v) system I set up with FXR inverters. They are definitely > to be used as guidelines. I was able to get the backup genny to start > almost PRECISELY at an 8% SOC and turn of at 70% according to the e-gauge, > and easily do further tweaking remotely through the Mate3s via REoptics. I > can share my setpoints if anyone is interested. > > This is a remote site, at least 2 miles from grid power, but I have > reliable internet using a Verizon jetpack cell modem/router (and you can > also pull and use the verizon Sim card in 3rd party verizon-compatible > devices). > > In this application, the charging efficiency(and ability to use the entire > kwh capacity of the bank) is outstanding compared to the old wet cell LA > bank. BI-LFP bank has been installed 6 mos and genny has run a total of 55 > hrs, compared to at least 250+ same time last year. > > I will say that Blue Planet definitely needs to expand and re-write their > documentation. You will find gaps for sure which might leave you > head-scratching the first time around. IMO this especially relates to > battery combiner box design and recommendation. If you have more than one > cabinet they need to parallel together safely using off-the-shelf > components, properly rated and protected. Especially in the high voltage > system I am about to install, 1MWH @ 850 vdc. They really ought to sell a > listed combiner with the system. I have almost weekly tech meetings with > them getting all the details straight. > > On 8/9/2020 8:30:04 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi Kirk, > > Can you explain why it wouldnt work? > > Just setpoints. > > Jay > > On Aug 9, 2020, at 4:13 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > >  > For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or Blue > Planet) older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion LFP batteries. > The newer FXR series are. > Considering one only needs to change slightly charge voltages, duration, > etc. to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery why Outback states that > older FX inverters are not compatible. > Outback states this in a tech note about using LI batteries. > > On 8/9/2020 5:40:39 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org < > drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: > P.S. The system consists of an old Outback FX inverter and an MX60, with > a 2600 W array. > > --- > > > On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Drake > > Athens Electric > > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 21:07:38 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 18:07:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older OB and lithium Message-ID: <8D31F094-CD66-429B-A6EF-3F415E8D78C2@gmail.com> I talked with a senior tech from OB this am. The issue why OB doesn’t recommend the FX and non A radians has to do with the LBCO is non adjustable for time. It’s set at 6 minutes. You can change the voltage of course. Reading between the lines they are worried that you will get battery shutdown before the time is up. Of course setting the LBCO a bit higher will take care of that. And there is an odd rebulk issue that might come into play for those doing grid charging. But the charge parameters and all that work just fine. Jay Peltz power. > On Aug 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > >  > Kirk > I would be interested in your amended programming with outback and blue planet > Jerry > >> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 6:43 AM Kirk Herander wrote: >> http://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/lithium_app_note.pdf >> >> This doesn't explain it, just omits older FX inverters from the Outback compatible list. >> >> In terms of programming, I did not use Blue Planet's BI setpoints verbatim in the BI 2.0 (48v) system I set up with FXR inverters. They are definitely to be used as guidelines. I was able to get the backup genny to start almost PRECISELY at an 8% SOC and turn of at 70% according to the e-gauge, and easily do further tweaking remotely through the Mate3s via REoptics. I can share my setpoints if anyone is interested. >> >> This is a remote site, at least 2 miles from grid power, but I have reliable internet using a Verizon jetpack cell modem/router (and you can also pull and use the verizon Sim card in 3rd party verizon-compatible devices). >> >> In this application, the charging efficiency(and ability to use the entire kwh capacity of the bank) is outstanding compared to the old wet cell LA bank. BI-LFP bank has been installed 6 mos and genny has run a total of 55 hrs, compared to at least 250+ same time last year. >> >> I will say that Blue Planet definitely needs to expand and re-write their documentation. You will find gaps for sure which might leave you head-scratching the first time around. IMO this especially relates to battery combiner box design and recommendation. If you have more than one cabinet they need to parallel together safely using off-the-shelf components, properly rated and protected. Especially in the high voltage system I am about to install, 1MWH @ 850 vdc. They really ought to sell a listed combiner with the system. I have almost weekly tech meetings with them getting all the details straight. >>> On 8/9/2020 8:30:04 PM, Jay wrote: >>> >>> Hi Kirk, >>> >>> Can you explain why it wouldnt work? >>> >>> Just setpoints. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>>>> On Aug 9, 2020, at 4:13 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: >>>>> >>>>  >>>> For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or Blue Planet) older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion LFP batteries. The newer FXR series are. >>>> Considering one only needs to change slightly charge voltages, duration, etc. to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery why Outback states that older FX inverters are not compatible. >>>> Outback states this in a tech note about using LI batteries. >>>>> On 8/9/2020 5:40:39 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >>>>> >>>>> P.S. The system consists of an old Outback FX inverter and an MX60, with >>>>> a 2600 W array. >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >>>>> > Hello Wrenches, >>>>> > >>>>> > What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? >>>>> > >>>>> > Thanks, >>>>> > >>>>> > Drake >>>>> > Athens Electric >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> > >>>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > List-Archive: >>>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > List rules & etiquette: >>>>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> > >>>>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Aug 11 01:09:00 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 22:09:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: References: <729512df78bb46eaa633219060f25acd@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Friends: I am hoping y’all can tell me I am doing something wrong with my arithmetic. I have registered to purchase Blue Planet batteries and priced the product. I come up with math that indicates that comparing usable amp/hours to usable amp/hours, that the Blue Planet is 5 times the cost of a flooded L-16 battery array on a cost per kilowatt/hour. Can this be true? I am using these parameters: 1. DOD for flooded L16s: 50% 2. DOD for Blue Planet: 100% I hope I am wrong. Also, we often install battery arrays that are upwards of 4,000 AH. For example, we installed 5,668 of East Penn flooded batteries on a couple of projects. To acquire the same capacity in Blue Planet would require 9 cabinets (again 50% DOD versus 100% DOD). Is this correct design? Is it practical to install 9 cabinets? Does the system detect and compensate for circulating currents in this many parallel strings? Thanks in advance. William Miller *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer *Sent:* Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:02 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery systems, best battery you will install. Jerry On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM wrote: Hello Wrenches, What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? Thanks, Drake Athens Electric -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Tue Aug 11 07:50:14 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:50:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older OB and lithium In-Reply-To: <8D31F094-CD66-429B-A6EF-3F415E8D78C2@gmail.com> References: <8D31F094-CD66-429B-A6EF-3F415E8D78C2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, Thanks for this info. BI considers the battery dark (0% SOC) at 48.0 volts. My customers system LCBO is set at 48.0 / 6 secs. As long as AGS is enabled and working, the voltage won't drop that low using the parameters in this screenshot. Extra caution indeed for Outback to not recommend the older FX model for these batteries based on easily adaptable programming. These AGS and charging set points auto start the genny @ 7-8% SOC, off @ 68-70% every time. Observing the  Egauge, the 2hr start voltage is the one tripped to start. Talking BI LFP, 24kwh capacity total. Blue did give me a recommended set point chart, which was not totally relevant, but it was enough to tweak them for this application. On 8/10/2020 11:15:27 PM, Jay wrote: I talked with a senior tech from OB this am.  The issue why OB doesn’t recommend the FX and non A radians has to do with the LBCO is non adjustable for time. It’s set at 6 minutes. You can change the voltage of course. Reading between the lines they are worried that you will get battery shutdown before the time is up.  Of course setting the LBCO a bit higher will take care of that.  And there is an odd rebulk issue that might come into play for those doing grid charging.  But the charge parameters and all that work just fine.  Jay Peltz power.  On Aug 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:  Kirk I would be interested in your amended programming with outback and blue planet Jerry On Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 6:43 AM Kirk Herander wrote: http://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/lithium_app_note.pdf [http://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/lithium_app_note.pdf] This doesn't explain it, just omits older FX inverters from the Outback compatible list. In terms of programming, I did not use Blue Planet's BI setpoints verbatim in the BI 2.0 (48v) system I set up with FXR inverters. They are definitely to be used as guidelines. I was able to get the backup genny to start almost PRECISELY at an 8% SOC and turn of at 70% according to the e-gauge, and easily do further tweaking remotely through the Mate3s via REoptics. I can share my setpoints if anyone is interested. This is a remote site, at least 2 miles from grid power, but I have reliable internet using a Verizon jetpack cell modem/router (and you can also pull and use the verizon Sim card in 3rd party verizon-compatible devices). In this application, the charging efficiency(and ability to use the entire kwh capacity of the bank) is outstanding compared to the old wet cell LA bank. BI-LFP bank has been installed 6 mos and genny has run a total of 55 hrs, compared to at least 250+ same time last year.  I will say that Blue Planet definitely needs to expand and re-write their documentation. You will find gaps for sure which might leave you head-scratching the first time around. IMO this especially relates to battery combiner box design and recommendation. If you have more than one cabinet they need to parallel together safely using off-the-shelf components, properly rated and protected. Especially in the high voltage system I am about to install, 1MWH @ 850 vdc. They really ought to sell a listed combiner with the system. I have almost weekly tech meetings with them getting all the details straight. On 8/9/2020 8:30:04 PM, Jay wrote: Hi Kirk, Can you explain why it wouldnt work? Just setpoints.  Jay On Aug 9, 2020, at 4:13 PM, Kirk Herander wrote:  For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or Blue Planet) older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion LFP batteries. The newer FXR series are. Considering one only needs to change slightly charge voltages, duration, etc. to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery why Outback states that older FX inverters are not compatible.  Outback  states this in a tech note about using LI batteries. On 8/9/2020 5:40:39 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org] wrote: P.S. The system consists of an old Outback FX inverter and an MX60, with a 2600 W array. --- On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org] wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? > > Thanks, > > Drake > Athens Electric > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 39310 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Aug 11 09:40:46 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 06:40:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: References: <729512df78bb46eaa633219060f25acd@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <19d8c861f6f5df44175a91e072df3603@127.0.0.1> The BMS in each system will balance under charge and protect hi discharge currents in multiple battery systems. This is typical in multiple Li batteries. I would expect them to do this BP. I have seen this with 20 of the AES Li batts. No problems with circulating currents. I would expect you to have had this with the AGM banks. Ouch too many strings. The cost is missing some data for me at a glance. LFP has always been a minimum of 2 times more when I look. The costing also depends on them lasting the full warranty and someone with deep pockets to back it up. Hope this helps. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 22:09:00 -0700, William Miller wrote: Friends: I am hoping y'all can tell me I am doing something wrong with my arithmetic. I have registered to purchase Blue Planet batteries and priced the product. I come up with math that indicates that comparing usable amp/hours to usable amp/hours, that the Blue Planet is 5 times the cost of a flooded L-16 battery array on a cost per kilowatt/hour. Can this be true? I am using these parameters: 1. DOD for flooded L16s: 50% 2. DOD for Blue Planet: 100% I hope I am wrong. Also, we often install battery arrays that are upwards of 4,000 AH. For example, we installed 5,668 of East Penn flooded batteries on a couple of projects. To acquire the same capacity in Blue Planet would require 9 cabinets (again 50% DOD versus 100% DOD). Is this correct design? Is it practical to install 9 cabinets? Does the system detect and compensate for circulating currents in this many parallel strings? Thanks in advance. William Miller FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [3]] ON BEHALF OF Jerry Shafer SENT: Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:02 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery systems, best battery you will install. Jerry On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM wrote: Hello Wrenches, What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? Thanks, Drake Athens Electric -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [9] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Tue Aug 11 09:53:41 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 09:53:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: References: <729512df78bb46eaa633219060f25acd@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: The cost sounds accurate, considering Blues are 2.5 to 3x the cost of LG Resu's for instance. To minimize sticker-shock, remember they are rated for 8000 0-100%SOC cycles (that's 21 years daily). And certified immune from thermal runaway. I assume we are talking 48v here, not their 850v cabinets. BI 48v cabinets can contain up to 16kwh ea, max configuration is 448kw as I remember, -9- full cabinets is 144kw. You are ok there. A 16 kwh cabinet is rated for 320AH at a nominal 50 vdc (-8- 2kwh mods @ 40 ahr ea.). The key is the on-board smart battery management unit, BMU, made by a company called Ageto. it will manage charge and discharge evenly down to the 2kwh battery module level. Each module even has a solid-state "regulator" visible from the front. No worries about different cable lengths, inverter/load feed position on the battery bus, etc, as in flooded cell design. I've found when paralleling cabinets together, you will be on your own to properly size and protect a DC combiner bus/cabinet. On 8/11/2020 9:04:41 AM, William Miller wrote: Friends:   I am hoping y’all can tell me I am doing something wrong with my arithmetic.  I have registered to purchase Blue Planet batteries and priced the product.  I come up with math that indicates that comparing usable amp/hours to usable amp/hours, that the Blue Planet is 5 times the cost of a flooded L-16 battery array on a cost per kilowatt/hour.  Can this be true?   I am using these parameters:   1.   DOD for flooded L16s: 50% 2.   DOD for Blue Planet: 100%   I hope I am wrong.   Also, we often install battery arrays that are upwards of 4,000 AH.  For example, we installed 5,668 of East Penn flooded batteries on a couple of projects.  To acquire the same capacity in Blue Planet would require 9 cabinets (again 50% DOD versus 100% DOD).  Is this correct design?  Is it practical to install 9 cabinets?  Does the system detect and compensate for circulating currents in this many parallel strings?   Thanks in advance.   William Miller     From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:02 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery   Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery systems, best battery you will install. Jerry   On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM wrote: Hello Wrenches, What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? Thanks, Drake Athens Electric -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 10:39:55 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:39:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William, I dont do the math based on up front kwh cost, but on lifetime kWh based on the number of cycles per average DOD that are going to be used. I use this same formula to compare all batteries to each other. Jay Peltz power. For example, a Rolls L16 ex has 3500 cycles at 50% DOD, and it’s a 371 amp hr at 6v or 2.226 kWh Retail is $400 3500 cycles x 1.1 kWh At 50 DOD=3850 kWh $400 / 3850 kWh = $.10 kWh 10 years of 50% cycling daily Compared to say a mid grade US battery, 1400 cycles to 50%, 400 amp hr. 2.4 kWh $325/1680 kWh = $.19 kWh. 3.8 yrs life Compare to say BI $1000 kWh roughly. If you get 10,000 cycles, that works out to same cost. $.10 per kWh. 27 yrs, but will the chemistry actually last that long? However, you have a massive upfront money cost. And for those of us off grid, you can’t really cycle 100%. And many lithium in the fine print don’t want you to charge to 100% daily. Let’s assume you start the generator at 10% and charge to 95%, now your usable amount is actually 85%, not 100%. Cost per kWh goes to $.12. > On Aug 11, 2020, at 6:04 AM, William Miller wrote: > >  > Friends: > > I am hoping y’all can tell me I am doing something wrong with my arithmetic. I have registered to purchase Blue Planet batteries and priced the product. I come up with math that indicates that comparing usable amp/hours to usable amp/hours, that the Blue Planet is 5 times the cost of a flooded L-16 battery array on a cost per kilowatt/hour. Can this be true? > > I am using these parameters: > > 1. DOD for flooded L16s: 50% > 2. DOD for Blue Planet: 100% > > I hope I am wrong. > > Also, we often install battery arrays that are upwards of 4,000 AH. For example, we installed 5,668 of East Penn flooded batteries on a couple of projects. To acquire the same capacity in Blue Planet would require 9 cabinets (again 50% DOD versus 100% DOD). Is this correct design? Is it practical to install 9 cabinets? Does the system detect and compensate for circulating currents in this many parallel strings? > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer > Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:02 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery > > Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery systems, best battery you will install. > Jerry > > On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? > > Thanks, > > Drake > Athens Electric > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cheezemanrich at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 13:35:37 2020 From: cheezemanrich at gmail.com (Richard Scott) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:35:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also keep in mind that the battery charge/discharge efficiency is much higher for lithium batteries compared to lead acid. Richard On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 8:17 AM Jay wrote: > Hi William, > > I dont do the math based on up front kwh cost, but on lifetime kWh based > on the number of cycles per average DOD that are going to be used. I use > this same formula to compare all batteries to each other. > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > For example, a Rolls L16 ex has 3500 cycles at 50% DOD, and it’s a 371 amp > hr at 6v or 2.226 kWh > Retail is $400 > > 3500 cycles x 1.1 kWh At 50 DOD=3850 kWh > $400 / 3850 kWh = $.10 kWh > 10 years of 50% cycling daily > > Compared to say a mid grade US battery, 1400 cycles to 50%, 400 amp hr. > 2.4 kWh > $325/1680 kWh = $.19 kWh. > 3.8 yrs life > > Compare to say BI > $1000 kWh roughly. > If you get 10,000 cycles, that works out to same cost. $.10 per kWh. > 27 yrs, but will the chemistry actually last that long? > However, you have a massive upfront money cost. > And for those of us off grid, you can’t really cycle 100%. And many > lithium in the fine print don’t want you to charge to 100% daily. Let’s > assume you start the generator at 10% and charge to 95%, now your usable > amount is actually 85%, not 100%. > Cost per kWh goes to $.12. > > > > > On Aug 11, 2020, at 6:04 AM, William Miller > wrote: > >  > > Friends: > > > > I am hoping y’all can tell me I am doing something wrong with my > arithmetic. I have registered to purchase Blue Planet batteries and priced > the product. I come up with math that indicates that comparing usable > amp/hours to usable amp/hours, that the Blue Planet is 5 times the cost of > a flooded L-16 battery array on a cost per kilowatt/hour. Can this be true? > > > > I am using these parameters: > > > > 1. DOD for flooded L16s: 50% > > 2. DOD for Blue Planet: 100% > > > > I hope I am wrong. > > > > Also, we often install battery arrays that are upwards of 4,000 AH. For > example, we installed 5,668 of East Penn flooded batteries on a couple of > projects. To acquire the same capacity in Blue Planet would require 9 > cabinets (again 50% DOD versus 100% DOD). Is this correct design? Is it > practical to install 9 cabinets? Does the system detect and compensate for > circulating currents in this many parallel strings? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer > *Sent:* Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:02 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery > > > > Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery systems, > best battery you will install. > > Jerry > > > > On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? > > Thanks, > > Drake > Athens Electric > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Tue Aug 11 14:30:00 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 11:30:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1ea40f88-ddd1-6b3f-1936-666b85f3c46d@villagepowerdesign.com> Hey All, Great Thread - so does anyone have the missing cycle life information for the Discover AES and Fortress Eflex below? * Discover AES (42-48-6650) (Spec sheet does not list cycles) (but does give 38MWh warranty see analysis sheet here: https://aeesolar.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/DISCOVER-AES-The-AES-LiFePO-Battery-Solar-Off-grid-Advantage-20190124-AEE.pdf that sheet says  "With a designed DOD of 50% lead-acid batteries are expected to last ~1500 cycles or 4 Years of daily cycling. With the Discover AES 10 Year 38 MWh Warranty, you’ll be half way into your 3rd Set of lead-acid batteries." That would imply 5250 cycles under warranty - but surely it has more in it than that for an expensive LFP!  Can't find a reference anywhere.  38 MWH/6.65 KWH = 5700 cycles - their own spreadsheet says "Cycle Life (@DOD rating):  NA"  Impressive warranty but how much past the warranty they don't seem to want to venture.  It's the most expensive of the options listed here (well comparable to BI) and comes with highest quality recommendation and has great closed loop communications - but would love to know the top end cycle figure. * Fortress EVault (18KWH)  (Spec sheet says 6000) * Fortress EFlex (5.4 KWH) ( Spec sheet does not list cycles) * Simpliphi 3.8 (spec sheet says 10,000+ @ 80%) * Blue Ion 2.0 spec sheet says 8000 @ 100% DOD Does anyone know why Simpliphi and BI an claim such high cycle life whereas Fortress says 6000 and AES won't venture it?  same chemistry? so is Fortress underselling or the other folks over selling? Has anyone even seen a curve of cycle life vs. DOD for LFP?  or is that not so much a curve as a flat line? thanks! Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater VillageLab Village Power Design www.villagelab.net www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Richard Scott wrote on 8/11/20 10:35 AM: > Also keep in mind that the battery charge/discharge efficiency is much > higher for lithium batteries compared to lead acid. > > Richard > > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 8:17 AM Jay > wrote: > > Hi William, > > I dont do the math based on up front kwh cost, but on lifetime kWh > based on the number of cycles per average DOD that are going to be > used. I use this same formula to compare all batteries to each other. > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > For example, a Rolls L16 ex has 3500 cycles at 50% DOD, and it’s a > 371 amp hr at 6v  or 2.226 kWh > Retail is $400 > > 3500 cycles x 1.1 kWh At 50 DOD=3850 kWh > $400 / 3850 kWh = $.10 kWh > 10 years of 50% cycling daily > > Compared to say a mid grade US battery, 1400 cycles to 50%, 400 > amp hr. 2.4 kWh > $325/1680 kWh = $.19 kWh. > 3.8 yrs life > > Compare to say BI > $1000 kWh roughly. > If you get 10,000 cycles, that works out to same cost. $.10 per kWh. > 27 yrs, but will the chemistry actually last that long? > However, you have a massive upfront money cost. > And for those of us off grid, you can’t really cycle 100%. And > many lithium in the fine print don’t want you to charge to 100% > daily. Let’s assume you start the generator at 10% and charge to > 95%, now your usable amount is actually 85%, not 100%. > Cost per kWh goes to $.12. > > > > >> On Aug 11, 2020, at 6:04 AM, William Miller >> > wrote: >> >>  >> >> Friends: >> >> I am hoping y’all can tell me I am doing something wrong with my >> arithmetic.  I have registered to purchase Blue Planet batteries >> and priced the product.  I come up with math that indicates that >> comparing usable amp/hours to usable amp/hours, that the Blue >> Planet is 5 times the cost of a flooded L-16 battery array on a >> cost per kilowatt/hour.  Can this be true? >> >> I am using these parameters: >> >> 1.DOD for flooded L16s: 50% >> >> 2.DOD for Blue Planet: 100% >> >> I hope I am wrong. >> >> Also, we often install battery arrays that are upwards of 4,000 >> AH.  For example, we installed 5,668 of East Penn flooded >> batteries on a couple of projects.  To acquire the same capacity >> in Blue Planet would require 9 cabinets (again 50% DOD versus >> 100% DOD).  Is this correct design?  Is it practical to install 9 >> cabinets?  Does the system detect and compensate for circulating >> currents in this many parallel strings? >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> William Miller >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches >> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ] *On Behalf Of >> *Jerry Shafer >> *Sent:* Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:02 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery >> >> Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery >> systems, best battery you will install. >> >> Jerry >> >> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM >> > > wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> Athens Electric >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Tue Aug 11 15:19:29 2020 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 12:19:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: <1ea40f88-ddd1-6b3f-1936-666b85f3c46d@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <1ea40f88-ddd1-6b3f-1936-666b85f3c46d@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Jeff, This has to do with testing... it takes a lot of time to do real cycle life testing even if you are doing accelerated testing. Some of the Lithium manufacturers that claim 8000 -10,000+ cycles at 80-100% DOD I think are not being .... well you know... I personally think they are oversizing the cells to ensure that a 100% DOD cycle is just 60-80% DOD... Just to give you an idea, we incorporated some changes into our batteries last year that we had been working on since 2015. By adding carbon to the S4500 and S5000 batteries by June of 2019 we had simulated over 4000 cycles on the Series 5000's. By the time we released the product we had already done 4 years of testing to verify operation with multiple testing partners. We are still testing those batteries today to determine their true failure point and cycle lives... The hard part is what is a cycle, and controlling the depth of discharge for every single cycle. With LFP you have an onboard computer that keeps track of all the power in and out, what discover is doing is a smart thing to do, they are keeping track of the total power in and out and using that for warranty. Battery warranties are much like panel warranties, especially with Lithium... You will lose some capacity right out of the gate, but the warranty is usually 70-80% of capacity for "X" amount of cycles or thruput power. I kind of like the way Discover is doing their warranties, as to how do you prove that someone has over cycled their battery bank? Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ *Become a Certified PV Professional. Register for* *NABCEP CEC 2020* *using promo code* *20RBE* ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 11:30 AM Jeff Clearwater < jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: > Hey All, > > Great Thread - so does anyone have the missing cycle life information for > the Discover AES and Fortress Eflex below? > > > - Discover AES (42-48-6650) (Spec sheet does not list cycles) (but > does give 38MWh warranty > > see analysis sheet here: > https://aeesolar.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/DISCOVER-AES-The-AES-LiFePO-Battery-Solar-Off-grid-Advantage-20190124-AEE.pdf > > that sheet says "With a designed DOD of 50% lead-acid batteries are > expected to last ~1500 cycles or 4 Years of daily cycling. With the > Discover AES 10 Year 38 MWh Warranty, you’ll be half way into your 3rd Set > of lead-acid batteries." > > That would imply 5250 cycles under warranty - but surely it has more in it > than that for an expensive LFP! Can't find a reference anywhere. 38 > MWH/6.65 KWH = 5700 cycles - their own spreadsheet says "Cycle Life (@DOD > rating): NA" Impressive warranty but how much past the warranty they > don't seem to want to venture. It's the most expensive of the options > listed here (well comparable to BI) and comes with highest quality > recommendation and has great closed loop communications - but would love to > know the top end cycle figure. > > > - Fortress EVault (18KWH) (Spec sheet says 6000) > - Fortress EFlex (5.4 KWH) ( Spec sheet does not list cycles) > - Simpliphi 3.8 (spec sheet says 10,000+ @ 80%) > - Blue Ion 2.0 spec sheet says 8000 @ 100% DOD > > Does anyone know why Simpliphi and BI an claim such high cycle life > whereas Fortress says 6000 and AES won't venture it? same chemistry? so > is Fortress underselling or the other folks over selling? > Has anyone even seen a curve of cycle life vs. DOD for LFP? or is that > not so much a curve as a flat line? > > thanks! > > Jeff > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > VillageLab > Village Power Design > www.villagelab.net > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > Richard Scott wrote on 8/11/20 10:35 AM: > > Also keep in mind that the battery charge/discharge efficiency is much > higher for lithium batteries compared to lead acid. > > Richard > > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 8:17 AM Jay wrote: > >> Hi William, >> >> I dont do the math based on up front kwh cost, but on lifetime kWh based >> on the number of cycles per average DOD that are going to be used. I use >> this same formula to compare all batteries to each other. >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> >> For example, a Rolls L16 ex has 3500 cycles at 50% DOD, and it’s a 371 >> amp hr at 6v or 2.226 kWh >> Retail is $400 >> >> 3500 cycles x 1.1 kWh At 50 DOD=3850 kWh >> $400 / 3850 kWh = $.10 kWh >> 10 years of 50% cycling daily >> >> Compared to say a mid grade US battery, 1400 cycles to 50%, 400 amp hr. >> 2.4 kWh >> $325/1680 kWh = $.19 kWh. >> 3.8 yrs life >> >> Compare to say BI >> $1000 kWh roughly. >> If you get 10,000 cycles, that works out to same cost. $.10 per kWh. >> 27 yrs, but will the chemistry actually last that long? >> However, you have a massive upfront money cost. >> And for those of us off grid, you can’t really cycle 100%. And many >> lithium in the fine print don’t want you to charge to 100% daily. Let’s >> assume you start the generator at 10% and charge to 95%, now your usable >> amount is actually 85%, not 100%. >> Cost per kWh goes to $.12. >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 11, 2020, at 6:04 AM, William Miller >> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I am hoping y’all can tell me I am doing something wrong with my >> arithmetic. I have registered to purchase Blue Planet batteries and priced >> the product. I come up with math that indicates that comparing usable >> amp/hours to usable amp/hours, that the Blue Planet is 5 times the cost of >> a flooded L-16 battery array on a cost per kilowatt/hour. Can this be true? >> >> >> >> I am using these parameters: >> >> >> >> 1. DOD for flooded L16s: 50% >> >> 2. DOD for Blue Planet: 100% >> >> >> >> I hope I am wrong. >> >> >> >> Also, we often install battery arrays that are upwards of 4,000 AH. For >> example, we installed 5,668 of East Penn flooded batteries on a couple of >> projects. To acquire the same capacity in Blue Planet would require 9 >> cabinets (again 50% DOD versus 100% DOD). Is this correct design? Is it >> practical to install 9 cabinets? Does the system detect and compensate for >> circulating currents in this many parallel strings? >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer >> *Sent:* Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:02 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery >> >> >> >> Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery systems, >> best battery you will install. >> >> Jerry >> >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM >> wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> Athens Electric >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 15:12:51 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 12:12:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: <1ea40f88-ddd1-6b3f-1936-666b85f3c46d@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <1ea40f88-ddd1-6b3f-1936-666b85f3c46d@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <29CDCB1F-70BF-40C0-BA3A-EB6331474141@gmail.com> Hi Jeff, AES doesn’t list cycles, just the 38 MWh/10 yr warranty of which you can back calculate cycles which works out to around 1.5 per day per 10 years. jay peltz power > On Aug 11, 2020, at 11:30 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > > Hey All, > > Great Thread - so does anyone have the missing cycle life information for the Discover AES and Fortress Eflex below? > > Discover AES (42-48-6650) (Spec sheet does not list cycles) (but does give 38MWh warranty > see analysis sheet here: https://aeesolar.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/DISCOVER-AES-The-AES-LiFePO-Battery-Solar-Off-grid-Advantage-20190124-AEE.pdf > > that sheet says "With a designed DOD of 50% lead-acid batteries are expected to last ~1500 cycles or 4 Years of daily cycling. With the Discover AES 10 Year 38 MWh Warranty, you’ll be half way into your 3rd Set of lead-acid batteries." > > That would imply 5250 cycles under warranty - but surely it has more in it than that for an expensive LFP! Can't find a reference anywhere. 38 MWH/6.65 KWH = 5700 cycles - their own spreadsheet says "Cycle Life (@DOD rating): NA" Impressive warranty but how much past the warranty they don't seem to want to venture. It's the most expensive of the options listed here (well comparable to BI) and comes with highest quality recommendation and has great closed loop communications - but would love to know the top end cycle figure. > > Fortress EVault (18KWH) (Spec sheet says 6000) > Fortress EFlex (5.4 KWH) ( Spec sheet does not list cycles) > Simpliphi 3.8 (spec sheet says 10,000+ @ 80%) > Blue Ion 2.0 spec sheet says 8000 @ 100% DOD > Does anyone know why Simpliphi and BI an claim such high cycle life whereas Fortress says 6000 and AES won't venture it? same chemistry? so is Fortress underselling or the other folks over selling? > > Has anyone even seen a curve of cycle life vs. DOD for LFP? or is that not so much a curve as a flat line? > > thanks! > > Jeff > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > VillageLab > Village Power Design > www.villagelab.net > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > Richard Scott wrote on 8/11/20 10:35 AM: >> Also keep in mind that the battery charge/discharge efficiency is much higher for lithium batteries compared to lead acid. >> >> Richard >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 8:17 AM Jay > wrote: >> Hi William, >> >> I dont do the math based on up front kwh cost, but on lifetime kWh based on the number of cycles per average DOD that are going to be used. I use this same formula to compare all batteries to each other. >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> >> For example, a Rolls L16 ex has 3500 cycles at 50% DOD, and it’s a 371 amp hr at 6v or 2.226 kWh >> Retail is $400 >> >> 3500 cycles x 1.1 kWh At 50 DOD=3850 kWh >> $400 / 3850 kWh = $.10 kWh >> 10 years of 50% cycling daily >> >> Compared to say a mid grade US battery, 1400 cycles to 50%, 400 amp hr. 2.4 kWh >> $325/1680 kWh = $.19 kWh. >> 3.8 yrs life >> >> Compare to say BI >> $1000 kWh roughly. >> If you get 10,000 cycles, that works out to same cost. $.10 per kWh. >> 27 yrs, but will the chemistry actually last that long? >> However, you have a massive upfront money cost. >> And for those of us off grid, you can’t really cycle 100%. And many lithium in the fine print don’t want you to charge to 100% daily. Let’s assume you start the generator at 10% and charge to 95%, now your usable amount is actually 85%, not 100%. >> Cost per kWh goes to $.12. >> >> >> >> >>> On Aug 11, 2020, at 6:04 AM, William Miller > wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Friends: >>> >>> >>> I am hoping y’all can tell me I am doing something wrong with my arithmetic. I have registered to purchase Blue Planet batteries and priced the product. I come up with math that indicates that comparing usable amp/hours to usable amp/hours, that the Blue Planet is 5 times the cost of a flooded L-16 battery array on a cost per kilowatt/hour. Can this be true? >>> >>> >>> I am using these parameters: >>> >>> >>> 1. DOD for flooded L16s: 50% >>> >>> 2. DOD for Blue Planet: 100% >>> >>> >>> I hope I am wrong. >>> >>> >>> Also, we often install battery arrays that are upwards of 4,000 AH. For example, we installed 5,668 of East Penn flooded batteries on a couple of projects. To acquire the same capacity in Blue Planet would require 9 cabinets (again 50% DOD versus 100% DOD). Is this correct design? Is it practical to install 9 cabinets? Does the system detect and compensate for circulating currents in this many parallel strings? >>> >>> >>> Thanks in advance. >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> >>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer >>> Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:02 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery >>> >>> >>> Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery systems, best battery you will install. >>> >>> Jerry >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM > wrote: >>> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Drake >>> Athens Electric >>> >>> -- >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Tue Aug 11 15:18:51 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:18:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Re: Older OB and lithium In-Reply-To: References: <8D31F094-CD66-429B-A6EF-3F415E8D78C2@gmail.com> Message-ID: ------ Forwarded Message -------- From: Kirk Herander Date: 8/11/2020 7:50:14 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Older OB and lithium To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Jay, Thanks for this info. BI considers the battery dark (0% SOC) at 48.0 volts. My customers system LCBO is set at 48.0 / 6 secs. As long as AGS is enabled and working, the voltage won't drop that low using the parameters in this screenshot. Extra caution indeed for Outback to not recommend the older FX model for these batteries based on easily adaptable programming. These AGS and charging set points auto start the genny @ 7-8% SOC, off @ 68-70% every time. Observing the  Egauge, the 2hr start voltage is the one tripped to start. Talking BI LFP, 24kwh capacity total. Blue did give me a recommended set point chart, which was not totally relevant, but it was enough to tweak them for this application. On 8/10/2020 11:15:27 PM, Jay wrote: I talked with a senior tech from OB this am.  The issue why OB doesn’t recommend the FX and non A radians has to do with the LBCO is non adjustable for time. It’s set at 6 minutes. You can change the voltage of course. Reading between the lines they are worried that you will get battery shutdown before the time is up.  Of course setting the LBCO a bit higher will take care of that.  And there is an odd rebulk issue that might come into play for those doing grid charging.  But the charge parameters and all that work just fine.  Jay Peltz power.  On Aug 10, 2020, at 5:56 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:  Kirk I would be interested in your amended programming with outback and blue planet Jerry On Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 6:43 AM Kirk Herander wrote: http://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/lithium_app_note.pdf [http://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/lithium_app_note.pdf] This doesn't explain it, just omits older FX inverters from the Outback compatible list. In terms of programming, I did not use Blue Planet's BI setpoints verbatim in the BI 2.0 (48v) system I set up with FXR inverters. They are definitely to be used as guidelines. I was able to get the backup genny to start almost PRECISELY at an 8% SOC and turn of at 70% according to the e-gauge, and easily do further tweaking remotely through the Mate3s via REoptics. I can share my setpoints if anyone is interested. This is a remote site, at least 2 miles from grid power, but I have reliable internet using a Verizon jetpack cell modem/router (and you can also pull and use the verizon Sim card in 3rd party verizon-compatible devices). In this application, the charging efficiency(and ability to use the entire kwh capacity of the bank) is outstanding compared to the old wet cell LA bank. BI-LFP bank has been installed 6 mos and genny has run a total of 55 hrs, compared to at least 250+ same time last year.  I will say that Blue Planet definitely needs to expand and re-write their documentation. You will find gaps for sure which might leave you head-scratching the first time around. IMO this especially relates to battery combiner box design and recommendation. If you have more than one cabinet they need to parallel together safely using off-the-shelf components, properly rated and protected. Especially in the high voltage system I am about to install, 1MWH @ 850 vdc. They really ought to sell a listed combiner with the system. I have almost weekly tech meetings with them getting all the details straight. On 8/9/2020 8:30:04 PM, Jay wrote: Hi Kirk, Can you explain why it wouldnt work? Just setpoints.  Jay On Aug 9, 2020, at 4:13 PM, Kirk Herander wrote:  For some reason (that I never got an answer to from Outback or Blue Planet) older FX inverters are not compatible with Blue Ion LFP batteries. The newer FXR series are. Considering one only needs to change slightly charge voltages, duration, etc. to meet BI recommendations, it's a mystery why Outback states that older FX inverters are not compatible.  Outback  states this in a tech note about using LI batteries. On 8/9/2020 5:40:39 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org] wrote: P.S. The system consists of an old Outback FX inverter and an MX60, with a 2600 W array. --- On 2020-08-09 13:12, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org] wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? > > Thanks, > > Drake > Athens Electric > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 39310 bytes Desc: not available URL: From will at solarenergy.org Tue Aug 11 15:50:53 2020 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:50:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: <1ea40f88-ddd1-6b3f-1936-666b85f3c46d@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <1ea40f88-ddd1-6b3f-1936-666b85f3c46d@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Jeff, I don't have answers to many of your questions but one thing I wanted to point out as that some lithium-ion manufacturers like Blue Planet underrate the capacity of their batteries so they can get to the 100% DOD without impacting cycle life. For example, Their 16 kWh battery is actually something like a 17.2 kWh battery. Whereas other manufacturers give you the actual capacity of the battery but suggest limiting the DOD to 80%. This makes it a bit hard to compare apples to apples. Also from what I've seen the cycle life curve for 80% DOD or less with lithium-ion batteries is relatively flat. Thanks, Will -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 2:30 PM Jeff Clearwater < jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: > Hey All, > > Great Thread - so does anyone have the missing cycle life information for > the Discover AES and Fortress Eflex below? > > > - Discover AES (42-48-6650) (Spec sheet does not list cycles) (but > does give 38MWh warranty > > see analysis sheet here: > https://aeesolar.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/DISCOVER-AES-The-AES-LiFePO-Battery-Solar-Off-grid-Advantage-20190124-AEE.pdf > > that sheet says "With a designed DOD of 50% lead-acid batteries are > expected to last ~1500 cycles or 4 Years of daily cycling. With the > Discover AES 10 Year 38 MWh Warranty, you’ll be half way into your 3rd Set > of lead-acid batteries." > > That would imply 5250 cycles under warranty - but surely it has more in it > than that for an expensive LFP! Can't find a reference anywhere. 38 > MWH/6.65 KWH = 5700 cycles - their own spreadsheet says "Cycle Life (@DOD > rating): NA" Impressive warranty but how much past the warranty they > don't seem to want to venture. It's the most expensive of the options > listed here (well comparable to BI) and comes with highest quality > recommendation and has great closed loop communications - but would love to > know the top end cycle figure. > > > - Fortress EVault (18KWH) (Spec sheet says 6000) > - Fortress EFlex (5.4 KWH) ( Spec sheet does not list cycles) > - Simpliphi 3.8 (spec sheet says 10,000+ @ 80%) > - Blue Ion 2.0 spec sheet says 8000 @ 100% DOD > > Does anyone know why Simpliphi and BI an claim such high cycle life > whereas Fortress says 6000 and AES won't venture it? same chemistry? so > is Fortress underselling or the other folks over selling? > Has anyone even seen a curve of cycle life vs. DOD for LFP? or is that > not so much a curve as a flat line? > > thanks! > > Jeff > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > VillageLab > Village Power Design > www.villagelab.net > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > Richard Scott wrote on 8/11/20 10:35 AM: > > Also keep in mind that the battery charge/discharge efficiency is much > higher for lithium batteries compared to lead acid. > > Richard > > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 8:17 AM Jay wrote: > >> Hi William, >> >> I dont do the math based on up front kwh cost, but on lifetime kWh based >> on the number of cycles per average DOD that are going to be used. I use >> this same formula to compare all batteries to each other. >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> >> For example, a Rolls L16 ex has 3500 cycles at 50% DOD, and it’s a 371 >> amp hr at 6v or 2.226 kWh >> Retail is $400 >> >> 3500 cycles x 1.1 kWh At 50 DOD=3850 kWh >> $400 / 3850 kWh = $.10 kWh >> 10 years of 50% cycling daily >> >> Compared to say a mid grade US battery, 1400 cycles to 50%, 400 amp hr. >> 2.4 kWh >> $325/1680 kWh = $.19 kWh. >> 3.8 yrs life >> >> Compare to say BI >> $1000 kWh roughly. >> If you get 10,000 cycles, that works out to same cost. $.10 per kWh. >> 27 yrs, but will the chemistry actually last that long? >> However, you have a massive upfront money cost. >> And for those of us off grid, you can’t really cycle 100%. And many >> lithium in the fine print don’t want you to charge to 100% daily. Let’s >> assume you start the generator at 10% and charge to 95%, now your usable >> amount is actually 85%, not 100%. >> Cost per kWh goes to $.12. >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 11, 2020, at 6:04 AM, William Miller >> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I am hoping y’all can tell me I am doing something wrong with my >> arithmetic. I have registered to purchase Blue Planet batteries and priced >> the product. I come up with math that indicates that comparing usable >> amp/hours to usable amp/hours, that the Blue Planet is 5 times the cost of >> a flooded L-16 battery array on a cost per kilowatt/hour. Can this be true? >> >> >> >> I am using these parameters: >> >> >> >> 1. DOD for flooded L16s: 50% >> >> 2. DOD for Blue Planet: 100% >> >> >> >> I hope I am wrong. >> >> >> >> Also, we often install battery arrays that are upwards of 4,000 AH. For >> example, we installed 5,668 of East Penn flooded batteries on a couple of >> projects. To acquire the same capacity in Blue Planet would require 9 >> cabinets (again 50% DOD versus 100% DOD). Is this correct design? Is it >> practical to install 9 cabinets? Does the system detect and compensate for >> circulating currents in this many parallel strings? >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer >> *Sent:* Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:02 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery >> >> >> >> Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery systems, >> best battery you will install. >> >> Jerry >> >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM >> wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> Athens Electric >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Tue Aug 11 16:35:59 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 13:35:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: <612745b0-13a3-cc1e-b6f5-a6383539d92e@villagelab.net> References: <612745b0-13a3-cc1e-b6f5-a6383539d92e@villagelab.net> Message-ID: <11700653-eaba-a0ed-82eb-4d9a7905dd7a@villagepowerdesign.com> Yes Richard is right. When doing these one cycle or lifetime comparisons we should derate the rated or useful KWH figures by the round trip efficiency: Round Trip Efficiencies: FLA - 82-85% AGM - 88-92% AGM-Carbon - 90-94% LFP - 94%-98% :) jc Richard Scott wrote on 8/11/20 10:35 AM: > Also keep in mind that the battery charge/discharge efficiency is much > higher for lithium batteries compared to lead acid. > > Richard > > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 8:17 AM Jay > wrote: > > Hi William, > > I dont do the math based on up front kwh cost, but on lifetime kWh > based on the number of cycles per average DOD that are going to be > used. I use this same formula to compare all batteries to each other. > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > For example, a Rolls L16 ex has 3500 cycles at 50% DOD, and it’s a > 371 amp hr at 6v  or 2.226 kWh > Retail is $400 > > 3500 cycles x 1.1 kWh At 50 DOD=3850 kWh > $400 / 3850 kWh = $.10 kWh > 10 years of 50% cycling daily > > Compared to say a mid grade US battery, 1400 cycles to 50%, 400 > amp hr. 2.4 kWh > $325/1680 kWh = $.19 kWh. > 3.8 yrs life > > Compare to say BI > $1000 kWh roughly. > If you get 10,000 cycles, that works out to same cost. $.10 per kWh. > 27 yrs, but will the chemistry actually last that long? > However, you have a massive upfront money cost. > And for those of us off grid, you can’t really cycle 100%. And > many lithium in the fine print don’t want you to charge to 100% > daily. Let’s assume you start the generator at 10% and charge to > 95%, now your usable amount is actually 85%, not 100%. > Cost per kWh goes to $.12. > > > > >> On Aug 11, 2020, at 6:04 AM, William Miller >> > wrote: >> >>  >> >> Friends: >> >> I am hoping y’all can tell me I am doing something wrong with my >> arithmetic.  I have registered to purchase Blue Planet batteries >> and priced the product.  I come up with math that indicates that >> comparing usable amp/hours to usable amp/hours, that the Blue >> Planet is 5 times the cost of a flooded L-16 battery array on a >> cost per kilowatt/hour.  Can this be true? >> >> I am using these parameters: >> >> 1.DOD for flooded L16s: 50% >> >> 2.DOD for Blue Planet: 100% >> >> I hope I am wrong. >> >> Also, we often install battery arrays that are upwards of 4,000 >> AH.  For example, we installed 5,668 of East Penn flooded >> batteries on a couple of projects.  To acquire the same capacity >> in Blue Planet would require 9 cabinets (again 50% DOD versus >> 100% DOD).  Is this correct design?  Is it practical to install 9 >> cabinets?  Does the system detect and compensate for circulating >> currents in this many parallel strings? >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> William Miller >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches >> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ] *On Behalf Of >> *Jerry Shafer >> *Sent:* Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:02 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery >> >> Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery >> systems, best battery you will install. >> >> Jerry >> >> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM >> > > wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> Athens Electric >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Aug 11 16:58:55 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 13:58:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery In-Reply-To: References: <1ea40f88-ddd1-6b3f-1936-666b85f3c46d@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: The cycles are important as is the recharge time, especially if you are running a genset and have fuel cost that is high. This graph shows how closing the loop in charging can be a pretty big savings. Fortress is similar but they use the gateway to get their canbus data in and out to the power system. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Discover & Xanbus.PNG Type: image/png Size: 132143 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Aug 11 17:41:59 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 17:41:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB#000US LCD Displays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah, it's like pulling teeth to get a response, much less an informed response. They told me to maintain NEMA 3R rating I need a full cover replacement. But no word on how to actually accomplish that (where to buy, how much, if available, etc.) On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 8:13 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote: > Jason, > > Yes the LCD displays can be swapped out. I had an issue with one earlier > this year on a SB6000US and SMA sent a replacement. Very easy to swap out. > Good luck with tech support. > > -Chris > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 7:20 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I'm zeroing in on an answer and will share when I get it. I sent an email >> at the recommendation of the first-line customer service rep. One person >> responded saying to call customer service (haha). A few minutes later >> another one said the cover needs to be replaced to maintain the NEMA >> 3R rating and gave me another email to get information on availability. >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 5:05 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> Does anyone know if the LCD displays can be replaced? I have a client >>> with three SB6000US and one SB3000US all manufactured in 2007 and all four >>> displays are shot. I'm not sure why it is so hard for SMA tech support to >>> give me a simple answer on this. I just had a mind-melting hour-long phone >>> call with them about this and the easiest currently-available replacement >>> for an out-of-warranty SB6000US. I failed to get a straight answer >>> on either question. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Tue Aug 11 18:18:22 2020 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (petertor@pobox.com) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:18:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ampacity Ratings for Different Conductors Message-ID: <1493095530.2040140.1597184302348@mailbusiness.ionos.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Aug 11 19:23:30 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 16:23:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ampacity Ratings for Different Conductors In-Reply-To: <1493095530.2040140.1597184302348@mailbusiness.ionos.com> References: <1493095530.2040140.1597184302348@mailbusiness.ionos.com> Message-ID: I would and do use a 2/0 battery cable for a 4KW inverter. Anchor is an excellent marine cable, but not a #2. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:18:22 -0700 (PDT), "petertor at pobox.com" wrote: I have been designing a off-grid system that can fit in an outside-accessible compartment with an approximate 24" square footprint and space above about 18" - 24". I am using two Battle Born LiFePO4 batteries rated at 24 V / 50 Ah, a Cotek pure sine wave inverter with an output power of 4,000 VA , a MorningStar TS-MPPT-60 charge controller, a Victron BMV-712 "coulomb counter" and a Battle Born surge limiter CL500. The current limiter limits the current to 120 continuous, and 200 A for 30 sec. I have been able to fit everything in and I am designing the cabling, and here is my problem. I have one vendor that recommends Ancor brand Tinned Marine Grade Battery Cable. It is "resistant to salt water, battery acid, oil, gasoline, heat, abrasion and ultra-violet radiation. Exceeds UL 1426, ABYC and US Coast Guard Charter boat (CFR Title 46) standards. Highest quality ultra-flexible (Type 3) tinned copper stranding. Vinyl insulation. -50 deg-C to 105 deg-C." 2 AWG is composed of 665 ea 30 AWG stands. The same vendor has "welding cable" with an EPDM insulation rated at 600 V, water/chemical/grease/abrasion resistant, -50 deg-C to 105 deg-C, "marine grade". Not UL listed. 624 ea 30 AWG strands. Roughly comparable pricing. They claim both 2 AWG cables are rated at 210 A. Not sure if this is continuous duty or whether I should derate this for what will be continuous duty. This is new territory for me, and any help would be appreciated. Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, California Solar Engineering Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Tue Aug 11 20:04:08 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 17:04:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ampacity Ratings for Different Conductors In-Reply-To: <1493095530.2040140.1597184302348@mailbusiness.ionos.com> References: <1493095530.2040140.1597184302348@mailbusiness.ionos.com> Message-ID: Peter, The 210-amp rating is probably for a 105°C insulation temperature in free air. For comparison, #2 THHN (90°C) copper in free air is rated for 190 amps. Not sure that it makes sense to use a free-air rating in a small closed box.  For outside use a temperature de-rating for ambient temperature, maybe around -10%, should be included too. It looks like Cotek recommends a minimum cable size of 1/0, so out of fear of starving the inverter of enough voltage, I wouldn't use any smaller. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 8/11/2020 3:18 PM, petertor at pobox.com wrote: > I have been designing a off-grid system that can fit in an > outside-accessible compartment with an approximate 24" square > footprint and space above about 18" - 24". > > I am using two Battle Born LiFePO4 batteries rated at 24 V / 50 Ah, a > Cotek pure sine wave inverter with an output power of 4,000 VA , a > MorningStar TS-MPPT-60 charge controller, a Victron BMV-712 "coulomb > counter" and a Battle Born surge limiter CL500. > > The current limiter limits the current to 120 continuous, and 200 A > for 30 sec. > > I have been able to fit everything in and I am designing the cabling, > and here is my problem. > > I have one vendor that recommends Ancor brand Tinned Marine Grade > Battery Cable. It is "resistant to salt water, battery acid, oil, > gasoline, heat, abrasion and ultra-violet radiation. Exceeds UL 1426, > ABYC and US Coast Guard Charter boat (CFR Title 46) standards. Highest > quality ultra-flexible (Type 3) tinned copper stranding. Vinyl > insulation. -50 deg-C to 105 deg-C." 2 AWG is composed of 665 ea 30 > AWG stands. > > The same vendor has "welding cable" with an EPDM insulation rated at > 600 V, water/chemical/grease/abrasion resistant, -50 deg-C to 105 > deg-C, "marine grade". Not UL listed. 624 ea 30 AWG strands. > > Roughly comparable pricing. > > They claim both 2 AWG cables are rated at 210 A. Not sure if this is > continuous duty or whether I should derate this for what will be > continuous duty. > > This is new territory for me, and any help would be appreciated. > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > President, California Solar Engineering > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Tue Aug 11 20:49:32 2020 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 20:49:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB#000US LCD Displays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001b01d67042$718f2f90$54ad8eb0$@mindspring.com> Jason I replaced one a little over a year ago on a sunny island, just within the warranty ( just ). They sent me a new one. It was just the display and it took 15 minutes to change, no new cover suggested or needed. I suspect they have plenty of them as they seem to fail. Press them. With all 4 displays down they should step up and support you. Peter Giroux ASAE From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2020 5:42 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB#000US LCD Displays Yeah, it's like pulling teeth to get a response, much less an informed response. They told me to maintain NEMA 3R rating I need a full cover replacement. But no word on how to actually accomplish that (where to buy, how much, if available, etc.) On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 8:13 PM Chris Sparadeo > wrote: Jason, Yes the LCD displays can be swapped out. I had an issue with one earlier this year on a SB6000US and SMA sent a replacement. Very easy to swap out. Good luck with tech support. -Chris On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 7:20 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: I'm zeroing in on an answer and will share when I get it. I sent an email at the recommendation of the first-line customer service rep. One person responded saying to call customer service (haha). A few minutes later another one said the cover needs to be replaced to maintain the NEMA 3R rating and gave me another email to get information on availability. On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 5:05 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: Does anyone know if the LCD displays can be replaced? I have a client with three SB6000US and one SB3000US all manufactured in 2007 and all four displays are shot. I'm not sure why it is so hard for SMA tech support to give me a simple answer on this. I just had a mind-melting hour-long phone call with them about this and the easiest currently-available replacement for an out-of-warranty SB6000US. I failed to get a straight answer on either question. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD0000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solarguy2004 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 22:18:43 2020 From: solarguy2004 at gmail.com (Jim Duncan) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 21:18:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: SMA SB#000US LCD Displays In-Reply-To: <782822b9-e350-8f3d-4ce1-4c352a9bd8cc@gmail.com> References: <782822b9-e350-8f3d-4ce1-4c352a9bd8cc@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b44bd1d-6c7f-6520-185d-52e21eb5c402@gmail.com>  If you need the older/larger one I have 4 of them. The smaller one is from a 6000 the others from 2500s. email me if you are interested. Jim Jim Duncan Solar Acres Farm 817.917.0527 solarguy2004 at gmail.com > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 5:05 PM Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > Does anyone know if the LCD displays can be replaced? I have a > client with three SB6000US and one SB3000US all manufactured > in 2007 and all four displays are shot. I'm not sure why it is > so hard for SMA tech support to give me a simple answer on > this. I just had a mind-melting hour-long phone call with them > about this and the easiest currently-available replacement for > an out-of-warranty SB6000US. I failed to get a straight answer > on either question. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SMA readout sm.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 160623 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Aug 11 22:34:15 2020 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 22:34:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ampacity Ratings for Different Conductors In-Reply-To: <1493095530.2040140.1597184302348@mailbusiness.ionos.com> References: <1493095530.2040140.1597184302348@mailbusiness.ionos.com> Message-ID: <012901d67051$1435f270$3ca1d750$@glbcc.com> Okay I have to ask, why wouldn’t you want to stick to code compliant battery cabling? From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of petertor at pobox.com Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2020 6:18 PM To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ampacity Ratings for Different Conductors I have been designing a off-grid system that can fit in an outside-accessible compartment with an approximate 24" square footprint and space above about 18" - 24". I am using two Battle Born LiFePO4 batteries rated at 24 V / 50 Ah, a Cotek pure sine wave inverter with an output power of 4,000 VA , a MorningStar TS-MPPT-60 charge controller, a Victron BMV-712 "coulomb counter" and a Battle Born surge limiter CL500. The current limiter limits the current to 120 continuous, and 200 A for 30 sec. I have been able to fit everything in and I am designing the cabling, and here is my problem. I have one vendor that recommends Ancor brand Tinned Marine Grade Battery Cable. It is "resistant to salt water, battery acid, oil, gasoline, heat, abrasion and ultra-violet radiation. Exceeds UL 1426, ABYC and US Coast Guard Charter boat (CFR Title 46) standards. Highest quality ultra-flexible (Type 3) tinned copper stranding. Vinyl insulation. -50 deg-C to 105 deg-C." 2 AWG is composed of 665 ea 30 AWG stands. The same vendor has "welding cable" with an EPDM insulation rated at 600 V, water/chemical/grease/abrasion resistant, -50 deg-C to 105 deg-C, "marine grade". Not UL listed. 624 ea 30 AWG strands. Roughly comparable pricing. They claim both 2 AWG cables are rated at 210 A. Not sure if this is continuous duty or whether I should derate this for what will be continuous duty. This is new territory for me, and any help would be appreciated. Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, California Solar Engineering -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 00:18:00 2020 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 21:18:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 200A Automatic Transfer switch Message-ID: Hi Wrenches. Can anyone recommend a good 200A Nema3 auto transfer switch that does not need to have any generator feedback (ie. Generac version which requires signal from generator) to transfer. Basically looking for a dumb version which transfers based on loss of grid voltage, and then reconnects based on re supply of grid voltage. The Gerearc version which was installed today relies on feedback from the generator which senses loss of grid voltage to authorize the transfer switch to toggle to back up mode. When the grid comes back the transfer switch switches back to normal mode without feedback from the generator voltage sense wires but not the other way around. Thank you! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Wed Aug 12 08:25:10 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 08:25:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 200A Automatic Transfer switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Kohler brand ATS will perform a contact closure when utility power fails for a two wire start generator. it doesn't switch over until it senses the generator ac is present. Your Generac model may or may not be 2 wire start. The newer "smart" ones can be converted with a generac adapter kit.  On 8/12/2020 12:18:16 AM, Kirpal wrote: Hi Wrenches. Can anyone recommend a good 200A Nema3 auto transfer switch that does not need to have any generator feedback (ie. Generac version which requires signal from generator) to transfer. Basically looking for a dumb version which transfers based on loss of grid voltage, and then reconnects based on re supply of grid voltage. The Gerearc version which was installed today relies on feedback from the generator which senses loss of grid voltage to authorize the transfer switch to toggle to back up mode. When the grid comes back the transfer switch switches back to normal mode without feedback from the generator voltage sense wires but not the other way around. Thank you! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com [http://www.oregonsolarworks.com] 541-299-0402 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Aug 12 06:54:01 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 06:54:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bolt-on breaker panelboards Message-ID: What are you using to combine multiple backfed breakers for battery output (i.e. combining Tesla Powerwalls or other AC battery appliances)? Disregard Tesla's new Gateway 2 and other manufacturer-specific gateway/combiners. An NQ or similar panel makes sense for larger systems, but gets expensive and physically large for 2-4 breaker configurations. Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Aug 12 09:06:48 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 06:06:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 200A Automatic Transfer switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kirpal - It's been a few years, but we've used Briggs & Stratton automatic transfer switches on multiple projects with good results. Most of our projects were with Sunny Islands. At least at the time, the transfer swtiches didn't require any external control system to switch from grid to off grid: https://www.briggsandstratton.com/na/en_us/buying-guides/standby-generators/accessories.html -August On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 9:18 PM Kirpal wrote: > Hi Wrenches. > Can anyone recommend a good 200A Nema3 auto transfer switch that does not > need to have any generator feedback (ie. Generac version which requires > signal from generator) to transfer. Basically looking for a dumb version > which transfers based on loss of grid voltage, and then reconnects based on > re supply of grid voltage. > The Gerearc version which was installed today relies on feedback from the > generator which senses loss of grid voltage to authorize the transfer > switch to toggle to back up mode. When the grid comes back the transfer > switch switches back to normal mode without feedback from the generator > voltage sense wires but not the other way around. > > Thank you! > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 10:43:24 2020 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 10:43:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ampacity ratings for different conductors Message-ID: <3BD440BE-A3FF-4BE2-8001-F64B796E00D6@gmail.com> Peter, I’d recommend 2-0 copper for this. Overkill? Perhaps, but the battery cables are probably the cheapest vital part of the system. Anything you can do to make life a bit better for the batteries will pay off. A few extra bucks for cable is a lot cheaper than one warrantee site visit. Cobra “x-flex” cable is MTW THW fine strand, NEC compliant, and easy to bend in small spaces. Hilton Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC From tump at swnl.net Wed Aug 12 11:27:36 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:27:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ampacity Ratings for Different Conductors In-Reply-To: <012901d67051$1435f270$3ca1d750$@glbcc.com> References: <1493095530.2040140.1597184302348@mailbusiness.ionos.com> <012901d67051$1435f270$3ca1d750$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Seems like over kill and I too am wondering why use anything but UL listed wire. I always use tinned cable from Cobra. They have the “X FLEX” and the “X FLEX 150” the X flex #2AWG is good for 213 Amps 2/0 is good for 336 Amps. The X FLEX 150 #2AWG is good for 255 and the 2/0 is good for 390 Amps. Let me know off list if you wold like my sales rep, Good quick service. T > On Aug 11, 2020, at 10:34 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > Okay I have to ask, why wouldn’t you want to stick to code compliant battery cabling? > > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of petertor at pobox.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2020 6:18 PM > To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ampacity Ratings for Different Conductors > > I have been designing a off-grid system that can fit in an outside-accessible compartment with an approximate 24" square footprint and space above about 18" - 24". > > I am using two Battle Born LiFePO4 batteries rated at 24 V / 50 Ah, a Cotek pure sine wave inverter with an output power of 4,000 VA , a MorningStar TS-MPPT-60 charge controller, a Victron BMV-712 "coulomb counter" and a Battle Born surge limiter CL500. > > The current limiter limits the current to 120 continuous, and 200 A for 30 sec. > > I have been able to fit everything in and I am designing the cabling, and here is my problem. > > I have one vendor that recommends Ancor brand Tinned Marine Grade Battery Cable. It is "resistant to salt water, battery acid, oil, gasoline, heat, abrasion and ultra-violet radiation. Exceeds UL 1426, ABYC and US Coast Guard Charter boat (CFR Title 46) standards. Highest quality ultra-flexible (Type 3) tinned copper stranding. Vinyl insulation. -50 deg-C to 105 deg-C." 2 AWG is composed of 665 ea 30 AWG stands. > > The same vendor has "welding cable" with an EPDM insulation rated at 600 V, water/chemical/grease/abrasion resistant, -50 deg-C to 105 deg-C, "marine grade". Not UL listed. 624 ea 30 AWG strands. > > Roughly comparable pricing. > > They claim both 2 AWG cables are rated at 210 A. Not sure if this is continuous duty or whether I should derate this for what will be continuous duty. > > This is new territory for me, and any help would be appreciated. > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > President, California Solar Engineering > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Aug 12 12:50:07 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 09:50:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Transfer switch Message-ID: <7308c752b7973bd5035f73641a459a04@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I had looked at Asco as a very flexible solution to some transfer scenarios. Specifically, the units can be programmed to prioritize a given source, or alternate between AC sources. I understand the Kohler RDT units can be more flexible than dedicated transfer switches at somewhat lower costs than the Asco. William Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Aug 12 14:16:38 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:16:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ampacity Ratings for Different Conductors In-Reply-To: <> References: <1493095530.2040140.1597184302348@mailbusiness.ionos.com> <012901d67051$1435f270$3ca1d750$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <31e924b33650f4d01178dbe2ac9d174d@127.0.0.1> I use 2/0 mainly because the 4 kw SW and Outback 24v inverters usually have a 175A or a greater breaker where I go 4/0. This allows the user to have some flexibility down the line. 24v bat cable loss is a higher issue also with pump surges. The pre-made cables from AEE ">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:27:36 -0400, Tump wrote: Seems like over kill and I too am wondering why use anything but UL listed wire. I always use tinned cable from Cobra. They have the "X FLEX" and the "X FLEX 150" the X flex #2AWG is good for 213 Amps 2/0 is good for 336 Amps. The X FLEX 150 #2AWG is good for 255 and the 2/0 is good for 390 Amps. Let me know off list if you wold like my sales rep, Good quick service. T On Aug 11, 2020, at 10:34 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: Okay I have to ask, why wouldn't you want to stick to code compliant battery cabling? FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF petertor at pobox.com [5] SENT: Tuesday, August 11, 2020 6:18 PM TO: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Ampacity Ratings for Different Conductors I have been designing a off-grid system that can fit in an outside-accessible compartment with an approximate 24" square footprint and space above about 18" - 24". I am using two Battle Born LiFePO4 batteries rated at 24 V / 50 Ah, a Cotek pure sine wave inverter with an output power of 4,000 VA , a MorningStar TS-MPPT-60 charge controller, a Victron BMV-712 "coulomb counter" and a Battle Born surge limiter CL500. The current limiter limits the current to 120 continuous, and 200 A for 30 sec. I have been able to fit everything in and I am designing the cabling, and here is my problem. I have one vendor that recommends Ancor brand Tinned Marine Grade Battery Cable. It is "resistant to salt water, battery acid, oil, gasoline, heat, abrasion and ultra-violet radiation. Exceeds UL 1426, ABYC and US Coast Guard Charter boat (CFR Title 46) standards. Highest quality ultra-flexible (Type 3) tinned copper stranding. Vinyl insulation. -50 deg-C to 105 deg-C." 2 AWG is composed of 665 ea 30 AWG stands. The same vendor has "welding cable" with an EPDM insulation rated at 600 V, water/chemical/grease/abrasion resistant, -50 deg-C to 105 deg-C, "marine grade". Not UL listed. 624 ea 30 AWG strands. Roughly comparable pricing. They claim both 2 AWG cables are rated at 210 A. Not sure if this is continuous duty or whether I should derate this for what will be continuous duty. This is new territory for me, and any help would be appreciated. Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, California Solar Engineering _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List rules font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] WWW.SWNL.NET [12] Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ _ SERVING MID COAST MAINE "> _ 207-832-7574 CL. 610-517-8401 _ _ __BLAIR "TUMP" MAY_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ __ NABCEP "CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER"_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ TRACE XANTREX "CERTIFIED" DEALER / INSTALLER"_ Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:glenn.burt at glbcc.com [4] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] mailto:petertor at pobox.com [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ [12] http://webmail.sti.net/blocked::http://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Aug 12 15:25:04 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:25:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ampacity Ratings for Different Conductors In-Reply-To: References: <1493095530.2040140.1597184302348@mailbusiness.ionos.com> Message-ID: Also, welding and automotive cables use totally different rating systems like SAE, that are much more liberal than NEC.  For instance, golf carts are traditionally wired with #6 battery cables, and can see a continuous draw of 125 A and surges to 200. We would never do that by NEC, but the cables just get warm to the touch in golf carts. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/11/20 6:04 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote: > Peter, > > The 210-amp rating is probably for a 105°C insulation temperature in > free air. For comparison, #2 THHN (90°C) copper in free air is rated > for 190 amps. Not sure that it makes sense to use a free-air rating in > a small closed box.  For outside use a temperature de-rating for > ambient temperature, maybe around -10%, should be included too. > > It looks like Cotek recommends a minimum cable size of 1/0, so out of > fear of starving the inverter of enough voltage, I wouldn't use any > smaller. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > On 8/11/2020 3:18 PM, petertor at pobox.com wrote: >> I have been designing a off-grid system that can fit in an >> outside-accessible compartment with an approximate 24" square >> footprint and space above about 18" - 24". >> >> I am using two Battle Born LiFePO4 batteries rated at 24 V / 50 Ah, a >> Cotek pure sine wave inverter with an output power of 4,000 VA , a >> MorningStar TS-MPPT-60 charge controller, a Victron BMV-712 "coulomb >> counter" and a Battle Born surge limiter CL500. >> >> The current limiter limits the current to 120 continuous, and 200 A >> for 30 sec. >> >> I have been able to fit everything in and I am designing the cabling, >> and here is my problem. >> >> I have one vendor that recommends Ancor brand Tinned Marine Grade >> Battery Cable. It is "resistant to salt water, battery acid, oil, >> gasoline, heat, abrasion and ultra-violet radiation. Exceeds UL 1426, >> ABYC and US Coast Guard Charter boat (CFR Title 46) standards. >> Highest quality ultra-flexible (Type 3) tinned copper stranding. >> Vinyl insulation. -50 deg-C to 105 deg-C." 2 AWG is composed of 665 >> ea 30 AWG stands. >> >> The same vendor has "welding cable" with an EPDM insulation rated at >> 600 V, water/chemical/grease/abrasion resistant, -50 deg-C to 105 >> deg-C, "marine grade". Not UL listed. 624 ea 30 AWG strands. >> >> Roughly comparable pricing. >> >> They claim both 2 AWG cables are rated at 210 A. Not sure if this is >> continuous duty or whether I should derate this for what will be >> continuous duty. >> >> This is new territory for me, and any help would be appreciated. >> >> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. >> President, California Solar Engineering >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Aug 12 15:51:09 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:51:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ampacity Ratings for Different Conductors In-Reply-To: References: <1493095530.2040140.1597184302348@mailbusiness.ionos.com> Message-ID: <1bfe1f36-d548-28bf-58e6-9ba0c04fc7a3@solarray.com> I should also add to my post and others' comments, that SAE rated and welding cables are not NEC legal for building wiring.  That used to be a common bust by the AHJ, and as others have pointed out:  Cobra Xflex, Arctic, etc are all UL listed building cable. Its got to have something listed on the NEC chart such as RHH, RHW, THHN, THWN etc. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/12/20 1:25 PM, Ray wrote: > > Also, welding and automotive cables use totally different rating > systems like SAE, that are much more liberal than NEC. For instance, > golf carts are traditionally wired with #6 battery cables, and can see > a continuous draw of 125 A and surges to 200.  We would never do that > by NEC, but the cables just get warm to the touch in golf carts. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 8/11/20 6:04 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote: >> Peter, >> >> The 210-amp rating is probably for a 105°C insulation temperature in >> free air. For comparison, #2 THHN (90°C) copper in free air is rated >> for 190 amps. Not sure that it makes sense to use a free-air rating >> in a small closed box.  For outside use a temperature de-rating for >> ambient temperature, maybe around -10%, should be included too. >> >> It looks like Cotek recommends a minimum cable size of 1/0, so out of >> fear of starving the inverter of enough voltage, I wouldn't use any >> smaller. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> On 8/11/2020 3:18 PM, petertor at pobox.com wrote: >>> I have been designing a off-grid system that can fit in an >>> outside-accessible compartment with an approximate 24" square >>> footprint and space above about 18" - 24". >>> >>> I am using two Battle Born LiFePO4 batteries rated at 24 V / 50 Ah, >>> a Cotek pure sine wave inverter with an output power of 4,000 VA , a >>> MorningStar TS-MPPT-60 charge controller, a Victron BMV-712 "coulomb >>> counter" and a Battle Born surge limiter CL500. >>> >>> The current limiter limits the current to 120 continuous, and 200 A >>> for 30 sec. >>> >>> I have been able to fit everything in and I am designing the >>> cabling, and here is my problem. >>> >>> I have one vendor that recommends Ancor brand Tinned Marine Grade >>> Battery Cable. It is "resistant to salt water, battery acid, oil, >>> gasoline, heat, abrasion and ultra-violet radiation. Exceeds UL >>> 1426, ABYC and US Coast Guard Charter boat (CFR Title 46) standards. >>> Highest quality ultra-flexible (Type 3) tinned copper stranding. >>> Vinyl insulation. -50 deg-C to 105 deg-C." 2 AWG is composed of 665 >>> ea 30 AWG stands. >>> >>> The same vendor has "welding cable" with an EPDM insulation rated at >>> 600 V, water/chemical/grease/abrasion resistant, -50 deg-C to 105 >>> deg-C, "marine grade". Not UL listed. 624 ea 30 AWG strands. >>> >>> Roughly comparable pricing. >>> >>> They claim both 2 AWG cables are rated at 210 A. Not sure if this is >>> continuous duty or whether I should derate this for what will be >>> continuous duty. >>> >>> This is new territory for me, and any help would be appreciated. >>> >>> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. >>> President, California Solar Engineering >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Aug 13 09:36:52 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 09:36:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery Message-ID: <94c483da218015bc344a606bc01d89a3@redwoodalliance.org> There has been a lot of great information that has been shared. This list is truly awesome! My takeaway is that, if Li-Ion is going to be used in a system with an old FX inverter, probably the Discover would be the best choice. Due to cost and potential compatibility issues, a better solution would likely be to use a set of good AGM batteries. Does this sound right? Thank you, Drake Athens Electric -- From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Aug 13 09:51:55 2020 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 09:51:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 200A Automatic Transfer switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've been using the ASCO series 185 and you can get it either as "service entrance" rated or not. Not sure on the nema 3r rating. But I know they make custom units also. Christopher On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 9:07 AM August Goers wrote: > Kirpal - > > It's been a few years, but we've used Briggs & Stratton automatic transfer > switches on multiple projects with good results. Most of our projects were > with Sunny Islands. At least at the time, the transfer swtiches didn't > require any external control system to switch from grid to off grid: > > > https://www.briggsandstratton.com/na/en_us/buying-guides/standby-generators/accessories.html > > > -August > > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 9:18 PM Kirpal wrote: > >> Hi Wrenches. >> Can anyone recommend a good 200A Nema3 auto transfer switch that does not >> need to have any generator feedback (ie. Generac version which requires >> signal from generator) to transfer. Basically looking for a dumb version >> which transfers based on loss of grid voltage, and then reconnects based on >> re supply of grid voltage. >> The Gerearc version which was installed today relies on feedback from the >> generator which senses loss of grid voltage to authorize the transfer >> switch to toggle to back up mode. When the grid comes back the transfer >> switch switches back to normal mode without feedback from the generator >> voltage sense wires but not the other way around. >> >> Thank you! >> >> Sunny Regards, >> Kirpal Khalsa >> Oregon LRT#25 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> www.oregonsolarworks.com >> 541-299-0402 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Thu Aug 13 12:05:12 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander, VT Solar, LLC) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 12:05:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] shunt trip breaker with outdoor disconnect offgrid Message-ID: Hello, Any of you ever use a 120vac-enabled shunt trip breaker on the inverter output at the main load panel, and have it controlled by a small AC disconnect switch outside? I say offgrid because I doubt any utility would grid-tie approve as an outdoor disco, it since it does not visibly open the inverter output power wires. But it wound save in round-trip inverter wiring outside and back in to the load center, and perhaps a big AC outdoor disco in larger systems. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 29th Anniversary 1991-2020 www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 10:30:30 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 07:30:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback shipping issues Message-ID: Hi all A supplier of mine that buys directly from OB has not been able to get shipping costs or delivery dates for almost 2 weeks now. Does anyone know anything about this? Thanks Jay From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Aug 13 14:04:43 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 11:04:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback shipping issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4efe6eeafa0f2f3422a9c185b3b94f9b@127.0.0.1> I was on their forum a few days back and they warned of network housekeeping. I think they also were planning to move to Phoenix but that may be pre C19. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 07:30:30 -0700, Jay wrote: > Hi all > > A supplier of mine that buys directly from OB has not been able to get > shipping costs or delivery dates for almost 2 weeks now. > > Does anyone know anything about this? > > Thanks > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 14:08:15 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 11:08:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] shunt trip breaker with outdoor disconnect offgrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Very interesting, l have a JHA that is requiring a shunt trip for the LG battery, any ideas here Jerry On Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 11:01 AM Kirk Herander, VT Solar, LLC < vtsolar at icloud.com> wrote: > Hello, > Any of you ever use a 120vac-enabled shunt trip breaker on the inverter > output at the main load panel, and have it controlled by a small AC > disconnect switch outside? > I say offgrid because I doubt any utility would grid-tie approve as an > outdoor disco, it since it does not visibly open the inverter output power > wires. > > But it wound save in round-trip inverter wiring outside and back in to the > load center, and perhaps a big AC outdoor disco in larger systems. > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 29th Anniversary 1991-2020* > > *www.vermont.solar* > > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Aug 13 14:18:41 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 11:18:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] shunt trip breaker with outdoor disconnect offgrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Outback and Schneider have EPO for outdoor location. Emergency power off. What type of inverter? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 11:08:15 -0700, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Very interesting, l have a JHA that is requiring a shunt trip for the LG battery, any ideas here Jerry On Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 11:01 AM Kirk Herander, VT Solar, LLC wrote: Hello, Any of you ever use a 120vac-enabled shunt trip breaker on the inverter output at the main load panel, and have it controlled by a small AC disconnect switch outside? I say offgrid because I doubt any utility would grid-tie approve as an outdoor disco, it since it does not visibly open the inverter output power wires. But it wound save in round-trip inverter wiring outside and back in to the load center, and perhaps a big AC outdoor disco in larger systems. KIRK HERANDER / OWNER|PRINCIPAL, VT SOLAR, LLC _CELEBRATING OUR 29TH ANNIVERSARY 1991-2020_ WWW.VERMONT.SOLAR [4] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [9] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:vtsolar at icloud.com [4] https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0 [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Thu Aug 13 15:06:28 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander, VT Solar, LLC) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 15:06:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] shunt trip breaker with outdoor disconnect offgrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You would need a shunt trip rated @600vdc , 25 amps I'm guessing. A DC rated contactor might be better, but where to find either? And what control voltage will the ST or contactor use? I assume its grid-tie if an AHJ is involved. The LG RESU would also require both pos and neg be switched off (ungrounded neg) for code compliance. You are probably best off running the battery leads outside to a 600vdc dp safety switch. And then back it's only 10 ga, wire back and forth. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 29th Anniversary 1991-2020 www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 8/13/2020 2:08:33 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Very interesting, l have a JHA that is requiring a shunt trip for the LG battery, any ideas here Jerry On Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 11:01 AM Kirk Herander, VT Solar, LLC wrote: Hello, Any of you ever use a 120vac-enabled shunt trip breaker on the inverter output at the main load panel, and have it controlled by a small AC disconnect switch outside? I say offgrid because I doubt any utility would grid-tie approve as an outdoor disco, it since it does not visibly open the inverter output power wires. But it wound save in round-trip inverter wiring outside and back in to the load center, and perhaps a big AC outdoor disco in larger systems. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 29th Anniversary 1991-2020 www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Aug 13 15:41:57 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:41:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] shunt trip breaker with outdoor disconnect offgrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19772895-3a82-cce3-fad9-e5dbef40f771@solarray.com> What voltage LG battery?  Midnight has large (100, 175, 250 A) DC shunt trip breakers that are 125 v rated.  They also have 15 and 20 A 600 V rated remote trip breakers. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/13/20 1:06 PM, Kirk Herander, VT Solar, LLC wrote: > You would need a shunt trip rated @600vdc , 25 amps I'm guessing. A DC > rated contactor might be better, but where to find either? And what > control voltage will the ST or contactor use? I assume its grid-tie if > an AHJ is involved. > The LG RESU would also require both pos and neg be switched off > (ungrounded neg) for code compliance. You are probably best off > running the battery leads outside to a 600vdc dp safety switch. And > then back it's only 10 ga, wire > back and forth. > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > */Celebrating our 29^th  Anniversary 1991-2020/* > > *www.vermont.solar* > ** > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > >> On 8/13/2020 2:08:33 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >> >> Wrenches >> Very interesting, l have a JHA that is requiring a shunt trip for the >> LG battery, any ideas here >> Jerry >> >> On Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 11:01 AM Kirk Herander, VT Solar, LLC >> > wrote: >> >> Hello, >> Any of you ever use a 120vac-enabled shunt trip breaker on the >> inverter output at the main load panel, and have it controlled by >> a small AC disconnect switch outside? >> I say offgrid because I doubt any utility would grid-tie approve >> as an outdoor disco, it since it does not visibly open the >> inverter output power wires. >> >> But it wound save in round-trip inverter wiring outside and back >> in to the load center, and perhaps a big AC outdoor disco in >> larger systems. >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> */Celebrating our 29^th  Anniversary 1991-2020/* >> >> *www.vermont.solar* >> >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.863.1202 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by >> Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out >> or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Aug 13 16:09:05 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:09:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] shunt trip breaker with outdoor disconnect offgrid In-Reply-To: <19772895-3a82-cce3-fad9-e5dbef40f771@solarray.com> References: <19772895-3a82-cce3-fad9-e5dbef40f771@solarray.com> Message-ID: <3ae8da9e57be681123f7b20bb4690c58@127.0.0.1> LG only sell the high voltage (400dc) in North America. The LG 48vdc was a failure. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:41:57 -0600, Ray wrote: What voltage LG battery? Midnight has large (100, 175, 250 A) DC shunt trip breakers that are 125 v rated. They also have 15 and 20 A 600 V rated remote trip breakers. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/13/20 1:06 PM, Kirk Herander, VT Solar, LLC wrote: You would need a shunt trip rated @600vdc , 25 amps I'm guessing. A DC rated contactor might be better, but where to find either? And what control voltage will the ST or contactor use? I assume its grid-tie if an AHJ is involved. The LG RESU would also require both pos and neg be switched off (ungrounded neg) for code compliance. You are probably best off running the battery leads outside to a 600vdc dp safety switch. And then back it's only 10 ga, wire back and forth. KIRK HERANDER / OWNER|PRINCIPAL, VT SOLAR, LLC _CELEBRATING OUR 29TH ANNIVERSARY 1991-2020_ WWW.VERMONT.SOLAR [3] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 8/13/2020 2:08:33 PM, Jerry Shafer [4] wrote: Wrenches Very interesting, l have a JHA that is requiring a shunt trip for the LG battery, any ideas here Jerry On Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 11:01 AM Kirk Herander, VT Solar, LLC wrote: Hello, Any of you ever use a 120vac-enabled shunt trip breaker on the inverter output at the main load panel, and have it controlled by a small AC disconnect switch outside? I say offgrid because I doubt any utility would grid-tie approve as an outdoor disco, it since it does not visibly open the inverter output power wires. But it wound save in round-trip inverter wiring outside and back in to the load center, and perhaps a big AC outdoor disco in larger systems. KIRK HERANDER / OWNER|PRINCIPAL, VT SOLAR, LLC _CELEBRATING OUR 29TH ANNIVERSARY 1991-2020_ WWW.VERMONT.SOLAR [6] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [16] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [20] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [21] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0 [4] mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com [5] mailto:vtsolar at icloud.com [6] https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0 [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [17] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [18] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [21] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 16:32:03 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:32:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] shunt trip breaker with outdoor disconnect offgrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches The JHA wants the shunt trip for a LG battery On Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 11:18 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Outback and Schneider have EPO for outdoor location. Emergency power off. > What type of inverter? > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 11:08:15 -0700, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > Wrenches > Very interesting, l have a JHA that is requiring a shunt trip for the LG > battery, any ideas here > Jerry > > On Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 11:01 AM Kirk Herander, VT Solar, LLC < > vtsolar at icloud.com> wrote: > >> Hello, >> Any of you ever use a 120vac-enabled shunt trip breaker on the inverter >> output at the main load panel, and have it controlled by a small AC >> disconnect switch outside? >> I say offgrid because I doubt any utility would grid-tie approve as an >> outdoor disco, it since it does not visibly open the inverter output power >> wires. >> >> But it wound save in round-trip inverter wiring outside and back in to >> the load center, and perhaps a big AC outdoor disco in larger systems. >> >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 29th Anniversary 1991-2020* >> >> *www.vermont.solar* >> >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.863.1202 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 16:34:49 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:34:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback shipping issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have had no trouble but there will inventory shortages starting with the supply chains and this may have something to do with your issues Jerry On Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 11:17 AM Jay wrote: > Hi all > > A supplier of mine that buys directly from OB has not been able to get > shipping costs or delivery dates for almost 2 weeks now. > > Does anyone know anything about this? > > Thanks > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 16:36:46 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:36:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] shunt trip breaker with outdoor disconnect offgrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches This is what we have but at final they required this shunt disco. Jerry On Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 12:34 PM Kirk Herander, VT Solar, LLC < vtsolar at icloud.com> wrote: > You would need a shunt trip rated @600vdc , 25 amps I'm guessing. A DC > rated contactor might be better, but where to find either? And what control > voltage will the ST or contactor use? I assume its grid-tie if an AHJ is > involved. > The LG RESU would also require both pos and neg be switched off > (ungrounded neg) for code compliance. You are probably best off running the > battery leads outside to a 600vdc dp safety switch. And then back it's only > 10 ga, wire > back and forth. > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 29th Anniversary 1991-2020* > > *www.vermont.solar* > > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > > On 8/13/2020 2:08:33 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > Very interesting, l have a JHA that is requiring a shunt trip for the LG > battery, any ideas here > Jerry > > On Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 11:01 AM Kirk Herander, VT Solar, LLC < > vtsolar at icloud.com> wrote: > >> Hello, >> Any of you ever use a 120vac-enabled shunt trip breaker on the inverter >> output at the main load panel, and have it controlled by a small AC >> disconnect switch outside? >> I say offgrid because I doubt any utility would grid-tie approve as an >> outdoor disco, it since it does not visibly open the inverter output power >> wires. >> >> But it wound save in round-trip inverter wiring outside and back in to >> the load center, and perhaps a big AC outdoor disco in larger systems. >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 29th Anniversary 1991-2020* >> >> *www.vermont.solar* >> >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.863.1202 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood > Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change > listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List > rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update > participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Thu Aug 13 16:39:41 2020 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Tuss, Lones) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 20:39:41 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback shipping issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello All Network housekeeping impacted the forum. Our move to Phoenix is almost entirely complete and did not impact Order Entry/Acceptance/Lead Times. Our Applications Engineering, Technical Support, and Development Engineering teams remain in Washington state. We're not aware of any suppliers who haven't gotten shipping costs and delivery dates. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 7:31 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback shipping issues Hi all A supplier of mine that buys directly from OB has not been able to get shipping costs or delivery dates for almost 2 weeks now. Does anyone know anything about this? Thanks Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=4103bb8b-1f9e514a-4100b200-867e61ab5887-1b4ee495b2115b0f&q=1&e=c43189e0-0e40-4eab-a1e5-181155718b4e&u=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=0210196c-5c8df3ad-021310e7-867e61ab5887-968ff2e17ea56f07&q=1&e=c43189e0-0e40-4eab-a1e5-181155718b4e&u=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=968d2e4d-c810c48c-968e27c6-867e61ab5887-3d0b75b20539241a&q=1&e=c43189e0-0e40-4eab-a1e5-181155718b4e&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=9a6f39ce-c4f2d30f-9a6c3045-867e61ab5887-9239791817b1dae2&q=1&e=c43189e0-0e40-4eab-a1e5-181155718b4e&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org%2F This email and any attachments may contain confidential information that is intended only for the recipient(s). 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From evolvedsolar at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 14:07:27 2020 From: evolvedsolar at gmail.com (Al Frishman) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 14:07:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: SolarEdge SE100KW Inverter with External combiner References: Message-ID: <90C91086-248C-4009-9056-2157E6C5F8FB@gmail.com> Hey Wrencher's, Has anyone used an external combiner with a combined lug kit on a SolarEdge 100KW Inverter? The Spec sheet has a footnote stating that there is an option but I can’t seem to find much info on it. - Will any brand combiner work as long is the ratings are correct or does SolarEdge make one? - Does it cause any issues with communication at the Optimizer level for monitoring? - Is there any impact to Rapid shutdown that needs to be considered? Appreciate any info you may have. Thanks and have a great day!!! Al Frishman EvolvedSolar (917) 699-6644 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at getpimby.com Sat Aug 15 11:06:26 2020 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matt Sherald) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 11:06:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Puzzle: Dryer does not work during FXR battery charging Message-ID: Hello All, My curiosity was piqued by a recent customer complaint. I'm hoping someone has bumped up against this issue before. The customer has a OB FXR2812 and a 3,000W Honda gen. Her gas clothes dryer runs just fine off the OB inverter. It runs properly on the Honda gen (when the inverter is bypassed) It will not run when the gen is on and battery charging is taking place. All the other AC loads (including the washing machine) run properly during battery charging with the gen. The OB inverter replaced an old Trace unit. The dryer worked as it should with the Trace during battery charging. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance! -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Sat Aug 15 11:37:31 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 08:37:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Puzzle: Dryer does not work during FXR battery charging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Matt, I haven't looked at what the FXR does to the waveform of a 3000-watt Honda, but I have used an oscilloscope to look at the waveform of a small generator while an FX inverter is charging batteries -- it pretty much makes an ugly mess of the voltage waveform. Not surprised to hear that some loads don't like to operate when the FXR is charging batteries from a small generator. The FX charger has a poor power factor and little filtering of the current waveform, it is a tough load on a small generator. The generator responds with lots of harmonic voltages and high frequency noise. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 8/15/2020 8:06 AM, Matt Sherald wrote: > Hello All, > > My curiosity was piqued by a recent customer complaint. I'm hoping > someone has bumped up against this issue before. > > The customer has a OB FXR2812 and a 3,000W Honda gen. > Her gas clothes dryer runs just fine off the OB inverter. > It runs properly on the Honda gen (when the inverter is bypassed) > It will not run when the gen is on and battery charging is taking place. > > All the other AC loads (including the washing machine) run properly > during battery charging with the gen. > The OB inverter replaced an old Trace unit.  The dryer worked as it > should with the Trace during battery charging. > > Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.  Thanks in advance! > > -- > Matt Sherald > PIMBY Energy, LLC > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > 304-704-5943 > > www.getpimby.blogspot.com > www.getpimby.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 11:51:27 2020 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 09:51:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Puzzle: Dryer does not work during FXR battery charging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have the same problem at my place, and a couple client's systems, with Magnum inverter/chargers and small ~2-3kw generators (not just Honda). But the problem appliance is microwave ovens, doesn't matter which microwave brand. They run fine straight from the generator, and fine from the inverter with no generator running, but make a strange, loud hum, dim internal light, and food doesn't heat if the generator is also charging the battery bank. I'll try to figure out how to capture a waveform photo with my scopemeter and post it. Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP PV Associate NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 9:37 AM Kent Osterberg wrote: > Matt, > > I haven't looked at what the FXR does to the waveform of a 3000-watt > Honda, but I have used an oscilloscope to look at the waveform of a small > generator while an FX inverter is charging batteries -- it pretty much > makes an ugly mess of the voltage waveform. Not surprised to hear that some > loads don't like to operate when the FXR is charging batteries from a small > generator. The FX charger has a poor power factor and little filtering of > the current waveform, it is a tough load on a small generator. The > generator responds with lots of harmonic voltages and high frequency noise. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 8/15/2020 8:06 AM, Matt Sherald wrote: > > Hello All, > > My curiosity was piqued by a recent customer complaint. I'm hoping > someone has bumped up against this issue before. > > The customer has a OB FXR2812 and a 3,000W Honda gen. > Her gas clothes dryer runs just fine off the OB inverter. > It runs properly on the Honda gen (when the inverter is bypassed) > It will not run when the gen is on and battery charging is taking place. > > All the other AC loads (including the washing machine) run properly during > battery charging with the gen. > The OB inverter replaced an old Trace unit. The dryer worked as it should > with the Trace during battery charging. > > Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance! > > -- > Matt Sherald > PIMBY Energy, LLC > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > 304-704-5943 > > www.getpimby.blogspot.com > www.getpimby.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Aug 15 12:17:54 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 09:17:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Puzzle: Dryer does not work during FXR battery charging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84f713827726b0f8e5d9fd6520823873@127.0.0.1> Ouch ! 2812 inverter. As a pro, you need to get them away from 12V IMHO. A home with appliances needs 24v and 4kw, both minimum. As Kent said, for now you can't do both gen charging and drying clothes. Why do you need a genset this time of year? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 11:06:26 -0400, Matt Sherald wrote: Hello All, My curiosity was piqued by a recent customer complaint. I'm hoping someone has bumped up against this issue before. The customer has a OB FXR2812 and a 3,000W Honda gen. Her gas clothes dryer runs just fine off the OB inverter. It runs properly on the Honda gen (when the inverter is bypassed) It will not run when the gen is on and battery charging is taking place. All the other AC loads (including the washing machine) run properly during battery charging with the gen. The OB inverter replaced an old Trace unit. The dryer worked as it should with the Trace during battery charging. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance! -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(R) 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com [3] www.getpimby.com [4] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.getpimby.blogspot.com [4] http://www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Sat Aug 15 12:38:36 2020 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 12:38:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Puzzle: Dryer does not work during FXR battery charging In-Reply-To: <84f713827726b0f8e5d9fd6520823873@127.0.0.1> References: <84f713827726b0f8e5d9fd6520823873@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: My bet is these clients are on a budget given the battery voltage and small inverters. So there probably isn't any PV at the moment. I've been coming across a lot of these types of systems lately. Came across a Generac 120v, 6kw Eco Gen with 3,500 hours on it! Ouch and the clients just won't add PV. Yet they pay a gen service company to come out once a month and service the unit on top of propane cost. Christopher On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 12:18 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Ouch ! 2812 inverter. As a pro, you need to get them away from 12V IMHO. > > A home with appliances needs 24v and 4kw, both minimum. > > As Kent said, for now you can't do both gen charging and drying clothes. > Why do you need a genset this time of year? > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 11:06:26 -0400, Matt Sherald > wrote: > > Hello All, > > My curiosity was piqued by a recent customer complaint. I'm hoping > someone has bumped up against this issue before. > > The customer has a OB FXR2812 and a 3,000W Honda gen. > Her gas clothes dryer runs just fine off the OB inverter. > It runs properly on the Honda gen (when the inverter is bypassed) > It will not run when the gen is on and battery charging is taking place. > > All the other AC loads (including the washing machine) run properly during > battery charging with the gen. > The OB inverter replaced an old Trace unit. The dryer worked as it should > with the Trace during battery charging. > > Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance! > > -- > Matt Sherald > PIMBY Energy, LLC > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > 304-704-5943 > > www.getpimby.blogspot.com > www.getpimby.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Aug 15 12:21:30 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 09:21:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Puzzle: Dryer does not work during FXR battery charging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5b5e6967600d428041408081675d4dd4@mail.gmail.com> Matt/Colleagues: This could be a case of elevated THD on the voltage waveform during battery charging. We wrote a case study on this problem. See this link , Case Study number 25. I hope information contained in this study helps you resolve this issue. Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Matt Sherald *Sent:* Saturday, August 15, 2020 8:06 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Puzzle: Dryer does not work during FXR battery charging Hello All, My curiosity was piqued by a recent customer complaint. I'm hoping someone has bumped up against this issue before. The customer has a OB FXR2812 and a 3,000W Honda gen. Her gas clothes dryer runs just fine off the OB inverter. It runs properly on the Honda gen (when the inverter is bypassed) It will not run when the gen is on and battery charging is taking place. All the other AC loads (including the washing machine) run properly during battery charging with the gen. The OB inverter replaced an old Trace unit. The dryer worked as it should with the Trace during battery charging. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance! -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 14:42:21 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 11:42:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Puzzle: Dryer does not work during FXR battery charging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Look at the programming, view the inverter during the charge Jerry On Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 8:06 AM Matt Sherald wrote: > Hello All, > > My curiosity was piqued by a recent customer complaint. I'm hoping > someone has bumped up against this issue before. > > The customer has a OB FXR2812 and a 3,000W Honda gen. > Her gas clothes dryer runs just fine off the OB inverter. > It runs properly on the Honda gen (when the inverter is bypassed) > It will not run when the gen is on and battery charging is taking place. > > All the other AC loads (including the washing machine) run properly during > battery charging with the gen. > The OB inverter replaced an old Trace unit. The dryer worked as it should > with the Trace during battery charging. > > Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance! > > -- > Matt Sherald > PIMBY Energy, LLC > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > 304-704-5943 > > www.getpimby.blogspot.com > www.getpimby.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 13:26:01 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 10:26:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Puzzle: Dryer does not work during FXR battery charging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Check power factor, it might be getting pretty poor during charging. Jay Peltz power. > On Aug 15, 2020, at 8:06 AM, Matt Sherald wrote: > >  > Hello All, > > My curiosity was piqued by a recent customer complaint. I'm hoping someone has bumped up against this issue before. > > The customer has a OB FXR2812 and a 3,000W Honda gen. > Her gas clothes dryer runs just fine off the OB inverter. > It runs properly on the Honda gen (when the inverter is bypassed) > It will not run when the gen is on and battery charging is taking place. > > All the other AC loads (including the washing machine) run properly during battery charging with the gen. > The OB inverter replaced an old Trace unit. The dryer worked as it should with the Trace during battery charging. > > Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance! > > -- > Matt Sherald > PIMBY Energy, LLC > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > 304-704-5943 > > www.getpimby.blogspot.com > www.getpimby.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Sat Aug 15 18:00:48 2020 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 16:00:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Puzzle: Dryer does not work during FXR battery charging Message-ID: Hello, Mechanix~ Matt Sherald wrote about his dryer puzzle. I suggest the run capacitor solution discussed near the bottom of this webpage: http://mvvikingstar.blogspot.com/2013/03/summery-and-conclusion-compatibility.html The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solsierra1 at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 18:14:41 2020 From: solsierra1 at gmail.com (Vic Guillot) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 15:14:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Working with SBS 6.0 and LG Chem batteries Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, We would like to hear from anyone who has had recent experiences dealing with installation and operation of SMA-America SBS 6.0 battery inverters, ABU's etc. along with LG Chem batteries. We would like to discuss the functionality of this combination of inverter/battery in comparison to other inverter battery options out there. Thanks, Vic Guillot Sol Sierra, Inc. Vic Guillot Sol Sierra, Inc. 209.795.3554 office 209.768.3560 mobile/text -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 22:45:28 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 19:45:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Working with SBS 6.0 and LG Chem batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have only heard that it does not work well, l have used the BYD and its works. Jerry On Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 3:14 PM Vic Guillot wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > We would like to hear from anyone who has had recent experiences dealing > with installation and operation of SMA-America SBS 6.0 battery inverters, > ABU's etc. along with LG Chem batteries. We would like to discuss the > functionality of this combination of inverter/battery in comparison to > other inverter battery options out there. > Thanks, > Vic Guillot > Sol Sierra, Inc. > > Vic Guillot > Sol Sierra, Inc. > 209.795.3554 office > 209.768.3560 mobile/text > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Aug 16 13:55:44 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 11:55:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Working with SBS 6.0 and LG Chem batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24384f77-db4b-254f-19d3-e990108e3fc4@solarray.com> I haven't used that combo, but I spent quite a bit of time researching, and SMA only warrants their equipment when used with batteries from their 'recommended' list.  LG Chem is not on the list, BYD is.  Personally I would be picking an inverter that has better tech support (SMA fired all their off grid team) and is better suited for the design.  The only reason I could think to use the Sunny Island would be if it was a 208, 3 phase setup. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/15/20 8:45 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > I have only heard that it does not work well, l have used the BYD and > its works. > Jerry > > On Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 3:14 PM Vic Guillot > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > We would like to hear from anyone who has had recent experiences > dealing with installation and operation of SMA-America SBS 6.0 > battery inverters, ABU's etc. along with LG Chem batteries. We > would like to discuss the functionality of this combination of > inverter/battery in comparison to other inverter battery options > out there. > Thanks, > Vic Guillot > Sol Sierra, Inc. > > Vic Guillot > Sol Sierra, Inc. > 209.795.3554 office > 209.768.3560 mobile/text > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solsierra1 at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 15:03:57 2020 From: solsierra1 at gmail.com (Vic Guillot) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 12:03:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Working with SBS 6.0 and LG Chem batteries In-Reply-To: <24384f77-db4b-254f-19d3-e990108e3fc4@solarray.com> References: <24384f77-db4b-254f-19d3-e990108e3fc4@solarray.com> Message-ID: Actually LG Chem was first on that list earlier this year. After recent developments they started changing their views in June, and now it seems like BYD is their first choice. We are most interested in talking to installers who have used the LG Chem/SBS 6.0 with some success. Thanks, Vic Vic Guillot Sol Sierra, Inc. 209.795.3554 office 209.768.3560 mobile/text On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:55 AM Ray wrote: > I haven't used that combo, but I spent quite a bit of time researching, > and SMA only warrants their equipment when used with batteries from their > 'recommended' list. LG Chem is not on the list, BYD is. Personally I > would be picking an inverter that has better tech support (SMA fired all > their off grid team) and is better suited for the design. The only reason > I could think to use the Sunny Island would be if it was a 208, 3 phase > setup. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 8/15/20 8:45 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > I have only heard that it does not work well, l have used the BYD and its > works. > Jerry > > On Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 3:14 PM Vic Guillot wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> We would like to hear from anyone who has had recent experiences dealing >> with installation and operation of SMA-America SBS 6.0 battery inverters, >> ABU's etc. along with LG Chem batteries. We would like to discuss the >> functionality of this combination of inverter/battery in comparison to >> other inverter battery options out there. >> Thanks, >> Vic Guillot >> Sol Sierra, Inc. >> >> Vic Guillot >> Sol Sierra, Inc. >> 209.795.3554 office >> 209.768.3560 mobile/text >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Sun Aug 16 18:06:49 2020 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:06:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Working with SBS 6.0 and LG Chem batteries Message-ID: <000201d67419$8a995f80$9fcc1e80$@solarcentex.com> I would like to share my experience. It does not in any way provide the AC Coupling experience that is represented. The LG Chem should never been on any "compatible" list. Perhaps they have removed it but it was clearly there (listed in front of BYD, even) and we used that representation to install components we have trusted in separate designs in two SMA/LG/SMA-Automatic Backup Unit systems. Now I have two systems in the field where the AC Coupling is completely useless. Because the SMA SBS has no way to continue operations when the LG Chem battery switches from discharge to charge and vice versa, it causes the SMA to drop off momentarily and that of course takes away the conditions under which the AC Coupled PV inverter operates. In backup mode (grid off) conditions, it retards the PV inverter output so much so that it minimizes the switching I describe above, but once a system load is put on, the system momentarily switches off and the SBS re-boot / PV inverter reconnect cycle starts again. Not elegant. Not in the least bit what we expect from an AC-Coupled design, especially one with an Automatic Backup Unit integration that is there for the sole purpose of aggregating the combined output of the SBS and PV inverter to provide large backed up load capability. SMA advises me that I need to put BYD into the two systems. Sure.but I bought LG based on what you represented in documentation so I really want to see SMA reimburse me for two BYD batteries before I spend money on legal help to join a class-action suit regarding the misrepresentation. I expect more from SMA. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 27385 bytes Desc: not available URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 19:43:37 2020 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 18:43:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning Modules Message-ID: Greetings Wrenches, I posed this question to the group a number of years ago and would like to ask it again, in case any new members have new ideas or any elders have adjusted their approach. I am wondering if anyone can offer tried-and-true tips for cleaning modules: tools, materials, methods? I am particularly interested in cleaning solutions for large commercial flat-roof installations. I have always had success using a mild soap solution to help loosen dirt/pollen, but I recently read an article specifically advising against this: https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2020/05/pro-tip-never-use-soap-to-clean-dirty-solar-panels/ Any reactions? -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com Sun Aug 16 22:14:20 2020 From: PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 02:14:20 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning Modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I did a little case study on an array (10kw Sanyo) in which the upper half was washed with softened water only, and the lower half was/is washed with softened water and rainx solution. The results of over a 12 year period have been zero difference in output between the two halves, but the upper half starts to show a soiling build up about 6 months earlier than the bottom. Rainx had (possibly still does) a statement recommending against using the product to clean modules. With no explanation why. I'm not necessarily recommending rainx, but that's my experience. W ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Corey Shalanski Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 7:43 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning Modules Greetings Wrenches, I posed this question to the group a number of years ago and would like to ask it again, in case any new members have new ideas or any elders have adjusted their approach. I am wondering if anyone can offer tried-and-true tips for cleaning modules: tools, materials, methods? I am particularly interested in cleaning solutions for large commercial flat-roof installations. I have always had success using a mild soap solution to help loosen dirt/pollen, but I recently read an article specifically advising against this: https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2020/05/pro-tip-never-use-soap-to-clean-dirty-solar-panels/ Any reactions? -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 22:39:43 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 19:39:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Working with SBS 6.0 and LG Chem batteries In-Reply-To: <000201d67419$8a995f80$9fcc1e80$@solarcentex.com> References: <000201d67419$8a995f80$9fcc1e80$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Wrenches This is interesting, first nothing comes up with a "class action suit" l personally researched the sma and battery compatibility, we sell solaredge and LG all the time and in all my conversations l never was told or read about the compatibility so l can only assume it was a early first draft. It sounds more like LG is the issue not SMA with the switching issue andsoftware may be the actual solution. But that's just me talking. Jerry NABCEP PV inspector On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 4:17 PM wrote: > I would like to share my experience. > > > > It does not in any way provide the AC Coupling experience that is > represented. The LG Chem should never been on any “compatible” list. > Perhaps they have removed it but it was clearly there (listed in front of > BYD, even) and we used that representation to install components we have > trusted in separate designs in two SMA/LG/SMA-Automatic Backup Unit systems. > > > > Now I have two systems in the field where the AC Coupling is completely > useless. Because the SMA SBS has no way to continue operations when the LG > Chem battery switches from discharge to charge and vice versa, it causes > the SMA to drop off momentarily and that of course takes away the > conditions under which the AC Coupled PV inverter operates. > > > > In backup mode (grid off) conditions, it retards the PV inverter output so > much so that it minimizes the switching I describe above, but once a system > load is put on, the system momentarily switches off and the SBS re-boot / > PV inverter reconnect cycle starts again. Not elegant. Not in the least bit > what we expect from an AC-Coupled design, especially one with an Automatic > Backup Unit integration that is there for the sole purpose of aggregating > the combined output of the SBS and PV inverter to provide large backed up > load capability. > > > > SMA advises me that I need to put BYD into the two systems. Sure…but I > bought LG based on what you represented in documentation so I really want > to see SMA reimburse me for two BYD batteries before I spend money on legal > help to join a class-action suit regarding the misrepresentation. > > > > I expect more from SMA. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 27385 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 27385 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Aug 17 10:10:19 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 07:10:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Working with SBS 6.0 and LG Chem batteries In-Reply-To: <000201d67419$8a995f80$9fcc1e80$@solarcentex.com> References: <000201d67419$8a995f80$9fcc1e80$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <595785cc0a5da4280c4b3ea767afee61@127.0.0.1> As others have said, it is an LG problem. I did the field test here for Schneider and LG on the 48vdc battery. I got to look at the 400v resu 10H and it was worse than the 48v resu 10. At that time the 10h only worked with Solar Edge the Israeli company. The bad part, to me, was that LG never cared to finish the test here and do a failure analysis on what killed their resu 10. The other one still works but I cut the charge current way below spec, and use it only with a CSW and not the XW it was meant for. In Australia they use the resu 10 with Victron, but it has had alot of issues and never has been listed for offgrid. LG needs to re-engineer the whole ESS line. They are NMC based and that too is an issue that LFP has solved! My advice to the problem here, is to get the supplier to put pressure on both SMA and LG for a refund or credit. What a nightmare for you! Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:06:49 -0500, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: I would like to share my experience. It does not in any way provide the AC Coupling experience that is represented. The LG Chem should never been on any "compatible" list. Perhaps they have removed it but it was clearly there (listed in front of BYD, even) and we used that representation to install components we have trusted in separate designs in two SMA/LG/SMA-Automatic Backup Unit systems. Now I have two systems in the field where the AC Coupling is completely useless. Because the SMA SBS has no way to continue operations when the LG Chem battery switches from discharge to charge and vice versa, it causes the SMA to drop off momentarily and that of course takes away the conditions under which the AC Coupled PV inverter operates. In backup mode (grid off) conditions, it retards the PV inverter output so much so that it minimizes the switching I describe above, but once a system load is put on, the system momentarily switches off and the SBS re-boot / PV inverter reconnect cycle starts again. Not elegant. Not in the least bit what we expect from an AC-Coupled design, especially one with an Automatic Backup Unit integration that is there for the sole purpose of aggregating the combined output of the SBS and PV inverter to provide large backed up load capability. SMA advises me that I need to put BYD into the two systems. Sure…but I bought LG based on what you represented in documentation so I really want to see SMA reimburse me for two BYD batteries before I spend money on legal help to join a class-action suit regarding the misrepresentation. I expect more from SMA. Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 27385 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solsierra1 at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 11:12:33 2020 From: solsierra1 at gmail.com (Vic Guillot) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 08:12:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Working with SBS 6.0 and LG Chem batteries In-Reply-To: <595785cc0a5da4280c4b3ea767afee61@127.0.0.1> References: <000201d67419$8a995f80$9fcc1e80$@solarcentex.com> <595785cc0a5da4280c4b3ea767afee61@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Hey Dave, Thanks for your input. The issue at stake here is that one or more large solar supply companies misrepresented the facts on this combination of inverter gear and battery. They did start the year out with LG Chem being the first battery on the compatibility list. After months of complaints they quickly pivoted somewhere around June. I know there are other installers out there, we hope to hear from them too. Vic Guillot Vic Guillot Sol Sierra, Inc. 209.795.3554 office 209.768.3560 mobile/text On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 7:10 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > As others have said, it is an LG problem. I did the field test here for > Schneider and LG on the 48vdc battery. I got to look at the 400v resu 10H > and it was worse than the 48v resu 10. At that time the 10h only worked > with Solar Edge the Israeli company. > > The bad part, to me, was that LG never cared to finish the test here and > do a failure analysis on what killed their resu 10. The other one still > works but I cut the charge current way below spec, and use it only with a > CSW and not the XW it was meant for. > > In Australia they use the resu 10 with Victron, but it has had alot of > issues and never has been listed for offgrid. LG needs to re-engineer the > whole ESS line. They are NMC based and that too is an issue that LFP has > solved! > > My advice to the problem here, is to get the supplier to put pressure on > both SMA and LG for a refund or credit. What a nightmare for you! Good > Luck! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:06:49 -0500, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: > > I would like to share my experience. > > > > It does not in any way provide the AC Coupling experience that is > represented. The LG Chem should never been on any “compatible” list. > Perhaps they have removed it but it was clearly there (listed in front of > BYD, even) and we used that representation to install components we have > trusted in separate designs in two SMA/LG/SMA-Automatic Backup Unit systems. > > > > Now I have two systems in the field where the AC Coupling is completely > useless. Because the SMA SBS has no way to continue operations when the LG > Chem battery switches from discharge to charge and vice versa, it causes > the SMA to drop off momentarily and that of course takes away the > conditions under which the AC Coupled PV inverter operates. > > > > In backup mode (grid off) conditions, it retards the PV inverter output so > much so that it minimizes the switching I describe above, but once a system > load is put on, the system momentarily switches off and the SBS re-boot / > PV inverter reconnect cycle starts again. Not elegant. Not in the least bit > what we expect from an AC-Coupled design, especially one with an Automatic > Backup Unit integration that is there for the sole purpose of aggregating > the combined output of the SBS and PV inverter to provide large backed up > load capability. > > > > SMA advises me that I need to put BYD into the two systems. Sure…but I > bought LG based on what you represented in documentation so I really want > to see SMA reimburse me for two BYD batteries before I spend money on legal > help to join a class-action suit regarding the misrepresentation. > > > > I expect more from SMA. > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 27385 bytes Desc: not available URL: From will at solarenergy.org Mon Aug 17 13:42:15 2020 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 13:42:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Puzzle: Dryer does not work during FXR battery charging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've seen that same issue too. I assumed that the battery charging, house base loads, and the microwave were too much power for the small generator. The voltage drops big time which I assume is what was causing the issue with the microwave and most likely with the dryer too. On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 11:51 AM Dan Fink wrote: > I have the same problem at my place, and a couple client's systems, with > Magnum inverter/chargers and small ~2-3kw generators (not just Honda). But > the problem appliance is microwave ovens, doesn't matter which microwave > brand. They run fine straight from the generator, and fine from the > inverter with no generator running, but make a strange, loud hum, dim > internal light, and food doesn't heat if the generator is also charging the > battery bank. I'll try to figure out how to capture a waveform photo with > my scopemeter and post it. > Dan Fink > Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting > NABCEP PV Associate > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > > On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 9:37 AM Kent Osterberg > wrote: > >> Matt, >> >> I haven't looked at what the FXR does to the waveform of a 3000-watt >> Honda, but I have used an oscilloscope to look at the waveform of a small >> generator while an FX inverter is charging batteries -- it pretty much >> makes an ugly mess of the voltage waveform. Not surprised to hear that some >> loads don't like to operate when the FXR is charging batteries from a small >> generator. The FX charger has a poor power factor and little filtering of >> the current waveform, it is a tough load on a small generator. The >> generator responds with lots of harmonic voltages and high frequency noise. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> >> On 8/15/2020 8:06 AM, Matt Sherald wrote: >> >> Hello All, >> >> My curiosity was piqued by a recent customer complaint. I'm hoping >> someone has bumped up against this issue before. >> >> The customer has a OB FXR2812 and a 3,000W Honda gen. >> Her gas clothes dryer runs just fine off the OB inverter. >> It runs properly on the Honda gen (when the inverter is bypassed) >> It will not run when the gen is on and battery charging is taking place. >> >> All the other AC loads (including the washing machine) run properly >> during battery charging with the gen. >> The OB inverter replaced an old Trace unit. The dryer worked as it >> should with the Trace during battery charging. >> >> Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance! >> >> -- >> Matt Sherald >> PIMBY Energy, LLC >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® >> 304-704-5943 >> >> www.getpimby.blogspot.com >> www.getpimby.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Mon Aug 17 13:54:11 2020 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 10:54:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Puzzle: Dryer does not work during FXR battery charging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, When the inverter charger charges the battery bank and runs loads this can affect the harmonics of the generator output. Not much you can do about it other than putting in a larger generator to handle the inverter/charging load along with the loads of the system, and even in some of those cases depending on the generator dosn't even fix that. I have seen some successful with filter caps on the output / Input of the inverter, but that is pretty hit an miss.. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ *Become a Certified PV Professional. Register for* *NABCEP CEC 2020* *using promo code* *20RBE* ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:42 AM Will White wrote: > I've seen that same issue too. I assumed that the battery charging, house > base loads, and the microwave were too much power for the small generator. > The voltage drops big time which I assume is what was causing the issue > with the microwave and most likely with the dryer too. > > On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 11:51 AM Dan Fink wrote: > >> I have the same problem at my place, and a couple client's systems, with >> Magnum inverter/chargers and small ~2-3kw generators (not just Honda). But >> the problem appliance is microwave ovens, doesn't matter which microwave >> brand. They run fine straight from the generator, and fine from the >> inverter with no generator running, but make a strange, loud hum, dim >> internal light, and food doesn't heat if the generator is also charging the >> battery bank. I'll try to figure out how to capture a waveform photo with >> my scopemeter and post it. >> Dan Fink >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting >> NABCEP PV Associate >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers >> d anbob88 at gmail.com >> 970-672-4342 >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 9:37 AM Kent Osterberg >> wrote: >> >>> Matt, >>> >>> I haven't looked at what the FXR does to the waveform of a 3000-watt >>> Honda, but I have used an oscilloscope to look at the waveform of a small >>> generator while an FX inverter is charging batteries -- it pretty much >>> makes an ugly mess of the voltage waveform. Not surprised to hear that some >>> loads don't like to operate when the FXR is charging batteries from a small >>> generator. The FX charger has a poor power factor and little filtering of >>> the current waveform, it is a tough load on a small generator. The >>> generator responds with lots of harmonic voltages and high frequency noise. >>> >>> Kent Osterberg >>> Blue Mountain Solar >>> >>> >>> On 8/15/2020 8:06 AM, Matt Sherald wrote: >>> >>> Hello All, >>> >>> My curiosity was piqued by a recent customer complaint. I'm hoping >>> someone has bumped up against this issue before. >>> >>> The customer has a OB FXR2812 and a 3,000W Honda gen. >>> Her gas clothes dryer runs just fine off the OB inverter. >>> It runs properly on the Honda gen (when the inverter is bypassed) >>> It will not run when the gen is on and battery charging is taking place. >>> >>> All the other AC loads (including the washing machine) run properly >>> during battery charging with the gen. >>> The OB inverter replaced an old Trace unit. The dryer worked as it >>> should with the Trace during battery charging. >>> >>> Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance! >>> >>> -- >>> Matt Sherald >>> PIMBY Energy, LLC >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® >>> 304-704-5943 >>> >>> www.getpimby.blogspot.com >>> www.getpimby.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change > . > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Aug 17 14:05:44 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 11:05:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Puzzle: Dryer does not work during FXR battery charging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24174ea5cda03a8b50bcc4fa66207412@127.0.0.1> Many of these issues also were solved with an inverter that had gen support or load shave. Time for a new inverter or a generator that is twice the load wattage. This was common back in the day and as Steve said, some cases just can't be fixed. Another reason many have abandoned 12v inverter/chargers except for RV use. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 10:54:11 -0700, Steve Higgins wrote: Wrenches, When the inverter charger charges the battery bank and runs loads this can affect the harmonics of the generator output. Not much you can do about it other than putting in a larger generator to handle the inverter/charging load along with the loads of the system, and even in some of those cases depending on the generator dosn't even fix that. I have seen some successful with filter caps on the output / Input of the inverter, but that is pretty hit an miss.. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com [4] ------------------------- BECOME A CERTIFIED PV PROFESSIONAL. REGISTER FOR NABCEP CEC 2020 [10] USING PROMO CODE 20RBE [11] ------------------------- CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------- On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:42 AM Will White wrote: I've seen that same issue too. I assumed that the battery charging, house base loads, and the microwave were too much power for the small generator. The voltage drops big time which I assume is what was causing the issue with the microwave and most likely with the dryer too. On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 11:51 AM Dan Fink wrote: I have the same problem at my place, and a couple client's systems, with Magnum inverter/chargers and small ~2-3kw generators (not just Honda). But the problem appliance is microwave ovens, doesn't matter which microwave brand. They run fine straight from the generator, and fine from the inverter with no generator running, but make a strange, loud hum, dim internal light, and food doesn't heat if the generator is also charging the battery bank. I'll try to figure out how to capture a waveform photo with my scopemeter and post it. Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP PV Associate NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor(tm) for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d [14]anbob88 at gmail.com [15] 970-672-4342 On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 9:37 AM Kent Osterberg wrote: Matt, I haven't looked at what the FXR does to the waveform of a 3000-watt Honda, but I have used an oscilloscope to look at the waveform of a small generator while an FX inverter is charging batteries -- it pretty much makes an ugly mess of the voltage waveform. Not surprised to hear that some loads don't like to operate when the FXR is charging batteries from a small generator. The FX charger has a poor power factor and little filtering of the current waveform, it is a tough load on a small generator. The generator responds with lots of harmonic voltages and high frequency noise. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 8/15/2020 8:06 AM, Matt Sherald wrote: Hello All, My curiosity was piqued by a recent customer complaint. I'm hoping someone has bumped up against this issue before. The customer has a OB FXR2812 and a 3,000W Honda gen. Her gas clothes dryer runs just fine off the OB inverter. It runs properly on the Honda gen (when the inverter is bypassed) It will not run when the gen is on and battery charging is taking place. All the other AC loads (including the washing machine) run properly during battery charging with the gen. The OB inverter replaced an old Trace unit. The dryer worked as it should with the Trace during battery charging. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance! -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(R) 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com [17] www.getpimby.com [18] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [19] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [21] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [22] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [23] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [24] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [25] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [26] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [27] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [28] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [29] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [30] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [31] List rules ">Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org [34] w: www.solarenergy.org [35] p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change [36]. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [37] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [38] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [39] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [40] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [41] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.rollsbattery.com [4] mailto:steve at surrette.com [5] http://www.facebook.com/RollsBattery [6] http://www.twitter.com/RollsBattery [7] https://www.youtube.com/user/RollsBattery [8] https://www.linkedin.com/company/rolls-battery-engineering [9] http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery [10] http://rollsbattery.com/nabcep2020 [11] http://rollsbattery.com/nabcep2020 [12] mailto:will at solarenergy.org [13] mailto:danbob88 at gmail.com [14] mailto:dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com [15] mailto:anbob88 at gmail.com [16] mailto:kent at coveoregon.com [17] http://www.getpimby.blogspot.com [18] http://www.getpimby.com [19] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [20] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [21] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [22] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [23] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [24] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [25] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [26] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [27] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [28] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [29] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [30] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [31] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [32] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [33] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [34] mailto:will at solarenergy.org [35] http://www.solarenergy.org/ [36] http://solarenergy.org/donate [37] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [38] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [39] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [40] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [41] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Aug 17 15:06:00 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 13:06:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Puzzle: Dryer does not work during FXR battery charging In-Reply-To: <24174ea5cda03a8b50bcc4fa66207412@127.0.0.1> References: <24174ea5cda03a8b50bcc4fa66207412@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <155481e9-0389-1467-eaa4-31e203965afd@solarray.com> I'll third the recommendation of a larger generator.  I quit trying the tiny genset setup 15 years ago.  My rule of thumb is the genset needs to be 50% larger than the inverter rating (6kw for a 4 kw inverter) plus the altitude derating.  Here in Colorado, you pretty much need a 8 kw genset with a 4 kw inverter.  Besides altitude, most gensets do not run right or put out clean power at full load. I've recently found that fuel efficiency is not as bad as you might think for the bigger gen sets running at 50% rating.  The tiny bit of extra cost and fuel consumption is a small price to pay for reliable back up power. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/17/20 12:05 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Many of these issues also were solved with an inverter that had gen > support or load shave. > > Time for a new inverter or a generator that is twice the load wattage. > This was common back in the day and as Steve said, some cases just > can't be fixed. Another reason many have abandoned 12v > inverter/chargers except for RV use. > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 10:54:11 -0700, Steve Higgins > wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> When the inverter charger charges the battery bank and runs loads >> this can affect the harmonics of the generator output. >> >> Not much you can do about it other than putting in a larger >> generator to handle the inverter/charging load along with the loads >> of the system, and even in some of those cases depending on the >> generator dosn't even fix that. >> >> I have seen some successful with filter caps on the output / Input of >> the inverter, but that is pretty hit an miss.. >> >> >> >> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager >> t+1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 >> f+1.902.597.8447 esteve at surrette.com >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Become a Certified PV Professional. Register for****NABCEP CEC 2020* >> *using promo code* *20RBE* >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only >> for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or >> privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other >> use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information >> is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the >> sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:42 AM Will White > > wrote: >> >> I've seen that same issue too. I assumed that the battery >> charging, house base loads, and the microwave were too much power >> for the small generator. The voltage drops big time which I >> assume is what was causing the issue with the microwave and most >> likely with the dryer too. >> >> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 11:51 AM Dan Fink > > wrote: >> >> I have the same problem at my place, and a couple client's >> systems, with Magnum inverter/chargers and small ~2-3kw >> generators (not just Honda). But the problem appliance is >> microwave ovens, doesn't matter which microwave brand. They >> run fine straight from the generator, and fine from the >> inverter with no generator running, but make a strange, loud >> hum, dim internal light, and food doesn't heat if the >> generator is also charging the battery bank. I'll try to >> figure out how to capture a waveform photo with my scopemeter >> and post it. >> Dan Fink >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting >> NABCEP PV Associate >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers >> d >> anbob88 at gmail.com >> >> 970-672-4342 >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 9:37 AM Kent Osterberg >> > wrote: >> >> Matt, >> >> I haven't looked at what the FXR does to the waveform of >> a 3000-watt Honda, but I have used an oscilloscope to >> look at the waveform of a small generator while an FX >> inverter is charging batteries -- it pretty much makes an >> ugly mess of the voltage waveform. Not surprised to hear >> that some loads don't like to operate when the FXR is >> charging batteries from a small generator. The FX charger >> has a poor power factor and little filtering of the >> current waveform, it is a tough load on a small >> generator. The generator responds with lots of harmonic >> voltages and high frequency noise. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> >> On 8/15/2020 8:06 AM, Matt Sherald wrote: >>> Hello All, >>> My curiosity was piqued by a recent customer complaint.  >>> I'm hoping someone has bumped up against this issue before. >>> The customer has a OB FXR2812 and a 3,000W Honda gen. >>> Her gas clothes dryer runs just fine off the OB inverter. >>> It runs properly on the Honda gen (when the inverter is >>> bypassed) >>> It will not run when the gen is on and battery charging >>> is taking place. >>> All the other AC loads (including the washing machine) >>> run properly during battery charging with the gen. >>> The OB inverter replaced an old Trace unit.  The dryer >>> worked as it should with the Trace during battery charging. >>> Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance! >>> >>> -- >>> Matt Sherald >>> PIMBY Energy, LLC >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® >>> 304-704-5943 >>> www.getpimby.blogspot.com >>> www.getpimby.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -- >> *Will White* >> Curriculum Developer >> e: will at solarenergy.org >> w: www.solarenergy.org >> p: 802-272-3092 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> # 093006-34 >> Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the >> change . >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 20:26:05 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 17:26:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Puzzle: Dryer does not work during FXR battery charging In-Reply-To: <155481e9-0389-1467-eaa4-31e203965afd@solarray.com> References: <24174ea5cda03a8b50bcc4fa66207412@127.0.0.1> <155481e9-0389-1467-eaa4-31e203965afd@solarray.com> Message-ID: Back to the original question. 1. FXR/A has generator support, turn it on if its not on. And the FXR/A has a generator setting for AC input that and I don’t really understand how smooths out this issue, but it can. I had a issue somewhat like this, 8Kw radian and 12kw genset. Radian or generator worked the stove ( gas stove, just the electronic controls and some LED lights). But when the inverter was charging, the stove wouldn’t work. Setting it to GENERATOR for ACINPUT solved the issue. Further programming would be to check that the low AC volts isn’t too low. I set it around 108 as the low usually, and that might be too low for this unit, so try setting that up higher. 2. possible programing issues might be solved or at least tested by turning down the AC generator input, or charger amps. Its my first test to confirm if the generator is being overloaded. Also try with reduced loads. 3. has the generate been serviced lately? oil change, air filter, etc. Often the reason for things not working well. 4. installing capacitors would be my last option. As someone who’s run a full sized house for 14 years with a FX 3524, and a honda EU2000 as my only generator, I can say categorically that it works just fine. Washer, refrigerator, freezer, all the standard appliances. Would a larger generator speed up the charging, yes, does this work yes. Would a larger inverter help, for me only with battery charging, not with loads, I’ve got no issues with running my house. I don’t know why this person has a 2812. I know of lots of people who have an existing system that works well for them, and really only upgrade to pure sine because of the new appliances. And with more high efficiency appliances: battery powered vacuum cleaners and tools: front load soft start washers, water pumps, variable compressor refrigerators, etc more and more can be done with less and less inverter power. Yea sure, if you want more power, then totally agree with going 24/48v is the way to go. Let us know what the fix turns out to be. Cheers, jay peltz power > On Aug 17, 2020, at 12:06 PM, Ray wrote: > > I'll third the recommendation of a larger generator. I quit trying the tiny genset setup 15 years ago. My rule of thumb is the genset needs to be 50% larger than the inverter rating (6kw for a 4 kw inverter) plus the altitude derating. Here in Colorado, you pretty much need a 8 kw genset with a 4 kw inverter. Besides altitude, most gensets do not run right or put out clean power at full load. > > I've recently found that fuel efficiency is not as bad as you might think for the bigger gen sets running at 50% rating. The tiny bit of extra cost and fuel consumption is a small price to pay for reliable back up power. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 8/17/20 12:05 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> Many of these issues also were solved with an inverter that had gen support or load shave. >> >> Time for a new inverter or a generator that is twice the load wattage. This was common back in the day and as Steve said, some cases just can't be fixed. Another reason many have abandoned 12v inverter/chargers except for RV use. >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 10:54:11 -0700, Steve Higgins wrote: >> >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> When the inverter charger charges the battery bank and runs loads this can affect the harmonics of the generator output. >>> >>> Not much you can do about it other than putting in a larger generator to handle the inverter/charging load along with the loads of the system, and even in some of those cases depending on the generator dosn't even fix that. >>> >>> I have seen some successful with filter caps on the output / Input of the inverter, but that is pretty hit an miss.. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager >>> t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 >>> f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com >>> >>> >>> Become a Certified PV Professional. Register for NABCEP CEC 2020 using promo code 20RBE >>> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:42 AM Will White > wrote: >>> I've seen that same issue too. I assumed that the battery charging, house base loads, and the microwave were too much power for the small generator. The voltage drops big time which I assume is what was causing the issue with the microwave and most likely with the dryer too. >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 11:51 AM Dan Fink > wrote: >>> I have the same problem at my place, and a couple client's systems, with Magnum inverter/chargers and small ~2-3kw generators (not just Honda). But the problem appliance is microwave ovens, doesn't matter which microwave brand. They run fine straight from the generator, and fine from the inverter with no generator running, but make a strange, loud hum, dim internal light, and food doesn't heat if the generator is also charging the battery bank. I'll try to figure out how to capture a waveform photo with my scopemeter and post it. >>> Dan Fink >>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting >>> NABCEP PV Associate >>> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >>> ~ PV Installation Professional >>> ~ Small Wind Installer >>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers >>> d anbob88 at gmail.com >>> 970-672-4342 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 9:37 AM Kent Osterberg > wrote: >>> Matt, >>> >>> I haven't looked at what the FXR does to the waveform of a 3000-watt Honda, but I have used an oscilloscope to look at the waveform of a small generator while an FX inverter is charging batteries -- it pretty much makes an ugly mess of the voltage waveform. Not surprised to hear that some loads don't like to operate when the FXR is charging batteries from a small generator. The FX charger has a poor power factor and little filtering of the current waveform, it is a tough load on a small generator. The generator responds with lots of harmonic voltages and high frequency noise. >>> >>> Kent Osterberg >>> Blue Mountain Solar >>> >>> >>> On 8/15/2020 8:06 AM, Matt Sherald wrote: >>>> Hello All, >>>> >>>> My curiosity was piqued by a recent customer complaint. I'm hoping someone has bumped up against this issue before. >>>> >>>> The customer has a OB FXR2812 and a 3,000W Honda gen. >>>> Her gas clothes dryer runs just fine off the OB inverter. >>>> It runs properly on the Honda gen (when the inverter is bypassed) >>>> It will not run when the gen is on and battery charging is taking place. >>>> >>>> All the other AC loads (including the washing machine) run properly during battery charging with the gen. >>>> The OB inverter replaced an old Trace unit. The dryer worked as it should with the Trace during battery charging. >>>> >>>> Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance! >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Matt Sherald >>>> PIMBY Energy, LLC >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® >>>> 304-704-5943 >>>> www.getpimby.blogspot.com >>>> www.getpimby.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Will White >>> Curriculum Developer >>> >>> >>> e: will at solarenergy.org >>> w: www.solarenergy.org >>> p: 802-272-3092 >>> >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> # 093006-34 >>> Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Aug 18 09:45:05 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 09:45:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Working with SBS 6.0 and LG Chem batteries In-Reply-To: <24384f77-db4b-254f-19d3-e990108e3fc4@solarray.com> References: <24384f77-db4b-254f-19d3-e990108e3fc4@solarray.com> Message-ID: I wrote to Hassan Taylor at SMA. He says they are still there. On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:36 AM Hasan Taylor wrote: All I can say is rumors of the Hybrid Energy Team's demise were greatly exaggerated. We're still here, and I have no idea where this person got their info from. Thank you, Hasan Taylor SMA America, LLC Regional Senior Expert, Hybrid Energy Systems Tel: (877) 697-6283 (option 4 for Hybrid) www.SMA-America.com [1] On 2020-08-16 13:55, Ray wrote: > I haven't used that combo, but I spent quite a bit of time researching, and SMA only warrants their equipment when used with batteries from their 'recommended' list. LG Chem is not on the list, BYD is. Personally I would be picking an inverter that has better tech support (SMA fired all their off grid team) and is better suited for the design. The only reason I could think to use the Sunny Island would be if it was a 208, 3 phase setup. Links: ------ [1] https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sma-america.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7CHasan.Taylor%40sma-america.com%7Ca8a46b9bbb8d4a3d179608d842e7b2af%7Ca059b96c28294d1188374cc1ff84735d%7C0%7C0%7C637332910193094527&sdata=ESvIgaJirtuzJYzzXWf5y9omGFGsJ71dHc9Ue0B6aEw%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Aug 18 10:59:11 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 10:59:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB#000US LCD Displays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It looks like I'll be giving up on this case. SMA keeps bouncing me among departments, pointing fingers at each other. Nobody seems to be able to help. One service department rep actually told me that most people just look for things on eBay. Seriously. And I'm writing this as I sit in the driveway of another client with a SB 5.0 that has failed three times. Not only will I decline to offer their products in the future, but I'm about to stop servicing them too. I can put up with this lack or support. Jason On Tue, Aug 11, 2020, 5:41 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Yeah, it's like pulling teeth to get a response, much less an informed > response. They told me to maintain NEMA 3R rating I need a full cover > replacement. But no word on how to actually accomplish that (where to buy, > how much, if available, etc.) > > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 8:13 PM Chris Sparadeo > wrote: > >> Jason, >> >> Yes the LCD displays can be swapped out. I had an issue with one earlier >> this year on a SB6000US and SMA sent a replacement. Very easy to swap out. >> Good luck with tech support. >> >> -Chris >> >> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 7:20 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> I'm zeroing in on an answer and will share when I get it. I sent an >>> email at the recommendation of the first-line customer service rep. One >>> person responded saying to call customer service (haha). A few minutes >>> later another one said the cover needs to be replaced to maintain the NEMA >>> 3R rating and gave me another email to get information on availability. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 5:05 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Does anyone know if the LCD displays can be replaced? I have a client >>>> with three SB6000US and one SB3000US all manufactured in 2007 and all four >>>> displays are shot. I'm not sure why it is so hard for SMA tech support to >>>> give me a simple answer on this. I just had a mind-melting hour-long phone >>>> call with them about this and the easiest currently-available replacement >>>> for an out-of-warranty SB6000US. I failed to get a straight answer >>>> on either question. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> >> C_802-369-4458 >> H_802-728-3059 >> _______________________________________________ >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solsierra1 at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 14:19:34 2020 From: solsierra1 at gmail.com (Vic Guillot) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 11:19:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Working with SBS 6.0 and LG Chem batteries In-Reply-To: References: <24384f77-db4b-254f-19d3-e990108e3fc4@solarray.com> Message-ID: Drake, How long does it take to get Hasan on the phone, when you're onsite doing a service call? How many staff other than Hasan are trained to help installers with their battery inverters, who are onsite doing service calls? Do you happen to know if Hasan and crew have figured out a way for installers to change storage profiles without returning to the site? Some sites are an hour drive away which means 2 hours of drive time. Vic Guillot Sol Sierra, Inc. 209.795.3554 office 209.768.3560 mobile/text On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 7:23 AM wrote: > I wrote to Hassan Taylor at SMA. He says they are still there. > > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:36 AM Hasan Taylor < > Hasan.Taylor at sma-america.com> wrote: > > All I can say is rumors of the Hybrid Energy Team’s demise were greatly > exaggerated. We’re still here, and I have no idea where this person got > their info from. > > Thank you, > > Hasan Taylor > > > SMA America, LLC > > Regional Senior Expert, Hybrid Energy Systems > > Tel: (877) 697-6283 (option 4 for Hybrid) > > www.SMA-America.com > > > > On 2020-08-16 13:55, Ray wrote: > > I haven't used that combo, but I spent quite a bit of time researching, > and SMA only warrants their equipment when used with batteries from their > 'recommended' list. LG Chem is not on the list, BYD is. Personally I > would be picking an inverter that has better tech support (*SMA fired all > their off grid team*) and is better suited for the design. The only > reason I could think to use the Sunny Island would be if it was a 208, 3 > phase setup. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Aug 18 16:21:26 2020 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:21:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB#000US LCD Displays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason,             Is it the actual display behind the window of the cover or is it the window in the cover?  It might be worth a try to contact a place that repairs SMA (and other inverters) like the Solar Cowboys (530) 273-4895.  If its just the window, we've replaced them.             And your reference to the SB 5.0 that has failed 3 times....was it a "U", "US", -40,-41?  Refurbished?  Can't say why but I've had pretty good luck with calling their service line, I've always entered my acct # first. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 8/18/2020 7:59 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > It looks like I'll be giving up on this case. SMA keeps bouncing me > among departments, pointing fingers at each other. Nobody seems to be > able to help. One service department rep actually told me that most > people just look for things on eBay. Seriously. > > And I'm writing this as I sit in the driveway of another client with a > SB 5.0 that has failed three times. Not only will I decline to offer > their products in the future, but I'm about to stop servicing them > too. I can put up with this lack or support. > > Jason > > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020, 5:41 PM Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > Yeah, it's like pulling teeth to get a response, much less an > informed response. They told me to maintain NEMA 3R rating I need > a full cover replacement. But no word on how to actually > accomplish that (where to buy, how much, if available, etc.) > > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 8:13 PM Chris Sparadeo > > wrote: > > Jason, > > Yes the LCD displays can be swapped out. I had an issue with > one earlier this year on a SB6000US and SMA sent a > replacement. Very easy to swap out. Good luck with tech support. > > -Chris > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 7:20 PM Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > I'm zeroing in on an answer and will share when I get it. > I sent an email at the recommendation of the first-line > customer service rep. One person responded saying to call > customer service (haha). A few minutes later another one > said the cover needs to be replaced to maintain the NEMA > 3R rating and gave me another email to get information on > availability. > > > > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 5:05 PM Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > Does anyone know if the LCD displays can be replaced? > I have a client with three SB6000US and one SB3000US > all manufactured in 2007 and all four displays are > shot. I'm not sure why it is so hard for SMA tech > support to give me a simple answer on this. I just had > a mind-melting hour-long phone call with them about > this and the easiest currently-available replacement > for an out-of-warranty SB6000US. I failed to get > a straight answer on either question. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Aug 18 17:05:23 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 17:05:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Working with SBS 6.0 and LG Chem batteries In-Reply-To: References: <24384f77-db4b-254f-19d3-e990108e3fc4@solarray.com> Message-ID: <1597784728826.59b11fdc7ab3a1c0@redwoodalliance.org> Vic, It does seem like tech support everywhere is on the decline. Especially with more complicated equipment, it is needed more than ever. Drake At 02:19 PM 8/18/2020, Vic Guillot wrote: >Drake, >How long does it take to get Hasan on the phone, >when you're onsite doing a service call? >How many staff other than Hasan are trained to >help installers with their battery inverters, >who are onsite doing service calls? >Do you happen to know if Hasan and crew have >figured out a way for installers to change >storage profiles without returning to the site? >Some sites are an hour drive away which means 2 hours of drive time. > >[] > >Vic Guillot >Sol Sierra, Inc. >209.795.3554 office >209.768.3560 mobile/text > > > >On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 7:23 AM ><drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >wrote: >I wrote to Hassan Taylor at SMA. He says they are still there. > > >On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:36 AM Hasan Taylor ><Hasan.Taylor at sma-america.com> wrote: > >All I can say is rumors of the Hybrid Energy >Team’s demise were greatly exaggerated. >We’re still here, and I have no idea where this person got their info from. > >Thank you, > >Hasan Taylor > > >SMA America, LLC > >Regional Senior Expert, Hybrid Energy Systems > >Tel: (877) 697-6283 (option 4 for Hybrid) > >www.SMA-America.com > > >On 2020-08-16 13:55, Ray wrote: >> >>I haven't used that combo, but I spent quite a >>bit of time researching, and SMA only warrants >>their equipment when used with batteries from >>their 'recommended' list. LG Chem is not on >>the list, BYD is. Personally I would be >>picking an inverter that has better tech >>support (SMA fired all their off grid team) and >>is better suited for the design. The only >>reason I could think to use the Sunny Island >>would be if it was a 208, 3 phase setup. >> >> >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Aug 18 17:40:11 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 17:40:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB#000US LCD Displays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The displays are dead completely. The SB 5.0 with issue is with a -US. The first one was replaced by another contractor who apparently didn't read the huge sticker that says it had a transport cover on it. So when I ordered the second warranty unit I asked that a regular cover be sent (SMA dropped the ball on that last year). That original contractor also used exposed THWN for the home run wiring on the roof and couldn't quite figure out how a Soladeck pass-though box works (scary stuff). I fixed that of course. But nothing else seems wrong. This inverter failure was slightly different from the last two. Now one string is showing 0V on the display but 277Voc on the meter. No ground faults detected. The other string is 360V. Both are good numbers based on the string configuration. AC voltage is good. No power production despite one good DC string and good AC. SMA service department finally relented this time (today) when I could not get into the interface via WiFi nor Ethernet and they are sending another unit out, this time supposedly with the correct non-transport cover. We will see. I just can't spend 4-6 hours of travel, hold and diagnostic time on these inverter issues. It's not worth it, particularly when I didn't sell the unit in the first place. SMA (and other string inverter manufacturers) are out of willing and capable service personnel in my area. I'm usually the last resort that people call when they are exasperated. On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 4:20 PM frenergy wrote: > Jason, > > Is it the actual display behind the window of the cover or is > it the window in the cover? It might be worth a try to contact a place > that repairs SMA (and other inverters) like the Solar Cowboys (530) > 273-4895. If its just the window, we've replaced them. > > And your reference to the SB 5.0 that has failed 3 > times....was it a "U", "US", -40,-41? Refurbished? Can't say why but I've > had pretty good luck with calling their service line, I've always entered > my acct # first. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > On 8/18/2020 7:59 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > It looks like I'll be giving up on this case. SMA keeps bouncing me among > departments, pointing fingers at each other. Nobody seems to be able to > help. One service department rep actually told me that most people just > look for things on eBay. Seriously. > > And I'm writing this as I sit in the driveway of another client with a SB > 5.0 that has failed three times. Not only will I decline to offer their > products in the future, but I'm about to stop servicing them too. I can put > up with this lack or support. > > Jason > > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020, 5:41 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Yeah, it's like pulling teeth to get a response, much less an informed >> response. They told me to maintain NEMA 3R rating I need a full cover >> replacement. But no word on how to actually accomplish that (where to buy, >> how much, if available, etc.) >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 8:13 PM Chris Sparadeo >> wrote: >> >>> Jason, >>> >>> Yes the LCD displays can be swapped out. I had an issue with one earlier >>> this year on a SB6000US and SMA sent a replacement. Very easy to swap out. >>> Good luck with tech support. >>> >>> -Chris >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 7:20 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I'm zeroing in on an answer and will share when I get it. I sent an >>>> email at the recommendation of the first-line customer service rep. One >>>> person responded saying to call customer service (haha). A few minutes >>>> later another one said the cover needs to be replaced to maintain the NEMA >>>> 3R rating and gave me another email to get information on availability. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 5:05 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Does anyone know if the LCD displays can be replaced? I have a client >>>>> with three SB6000US and one SB3000US all manufactured in 2007 and all four >>>>> displays are shot. I'm not sure why it is so hard for SMA tech support to >>>>> give me a simple answer on this. I just had a mind-melting hour-long phone >>>>> call with them about this and the easiest currently-available replacement >>>>> for an out-of-warranty SB6000US. I failed to get a straight answer >>>>> on either question. >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> Chris Sparadeo >>> >>> >>> C_802-369-4458 >>> H_802-728-3059 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > <#m_4469058384608438711_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 19:23:41 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 16:23:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Working with SBS 6.0 and LG Chem batteries In-Reply-To: <1597784728826.59b11fdc7ab3a1c0@redwoodalliance.org> References: <1597784728826.59b11fdc7ab3a1c0@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <09917E06-5C28-4E3A-BFBE-A5D1C81A96F1@gmail.com> Can I ask a question about which OEM’s folks want to recommend in terms of warranty, repair, tech support? These horror stories are really disappointing. Thx Jay From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Aug 20 11:10:19 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 11:10:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld Sunmodule Plus Message-ID: If anyone has a module around with black frame, white backsheet, I have a client looking for one to replace a shattered module. Optimizer system. Watt rating not critical. Please contact me off list. *Jason Szumlanski* Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 16:50:08 2020 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 15:50:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IAEI Online Articles Message-ID: Does anyone know what happened to the online IAEI magazine article website: https://iaeimagazine.org/ It no longer seems to be accessible? -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Aug 20 17:00:28 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 17:00:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IAEI Online Articles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought it was just me. It has been like that for a few weeks. On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 4:50 PM Corey Shalanski wrote: > Does anyone know what happened to the online IAEI magazine article > website: https://iaeimagazine.org/ > > > It no longer seems to be accessible? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ryan at mayfield.energy Thu Aug 20 17:41:52 2020 From: ryan at mayfield.energy (Ryan Mayfield) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 14:41:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IAEI Online Articles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looks like they changed their URL (and access style), seems odd they don't have the old one redirect you... https://www.iaei.org/Online/Magazine/Online/IAEI_Magazine.aspx?hkey=859b0900-7ea8-490b-8915-0c5993d14a89 On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 2:29 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I thought it was just me. It has been like that for a few weeks. > > > > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 4:50 PM Corey Shalanski > wrote: > >> Does anyone know what happened to the online IAEI magazine article >> website: https://iaeimagazine.org/ >> >> >> It no longer seems to be accessible? >> >> -- >> Corey Shalanski >> Jah Light Solar >> Portland, Jamaica >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: photo] *Ryan Mayfield* *Founder & CEO* *(541) 231-9984 <(541)+231-9984>* | *ryan at mayfield.energy * www.mayfield.energy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 08:51:18 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 06:51:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge Storedge backup operation Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, Is this article correct when it states that the solar modules will shut down in the event of a power outage with the Storedge system? https://www.solaris-shop.com/blog/hybrid-solar-systems-what-you-need-to-know/ That seems like a pretty weak offering if that's true. It seems to contradict Solaredge documentation. Thanks -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From findsolar at herzfeld.org Fri Aug 21 08:55:15 2020 From: findsolar at herzfeld.org (Martin Herzfeld) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 05:55:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IAEI Online Articles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: FYI - I've been using the IAEI App found here: http://bit.ly/IAEIApp1 with access to past issues. All the best, Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037 Contract Training Provider (CTP) Adjunct Professor, Energy California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, D56, D31, C-7 - Since 2004 Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors #7035507 - Since 2006 * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training Provider On Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 2:41 PM Ryan Mayfield wrote: > Looks like they changed their URL (and access style), seems odd they don't > have the old one redirect you... > > > https://www.iaei.org/Online/Magazine/Online/IAEI_Magazine.aspx?hkey=859b0900-7ea8-490b-8915-0c5993d14a89 > > > > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 2:29 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I thought it was just me. It has been like that for a few weeks. >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 4:50 PM Corey Shalanski >> wrote: >> >>> Does anyone know what happened to the online IAEI magazine article >>> website: https://iaeimagazine.org/ >>> >>> >>> It no longer seems to be accessible? >>> >>> -- >>> Corey Shalanski >>> Jah Light Solar >>> Portland, Jamaica >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > [image: photo] > *Ryan Mayfield* > *Founder & CEO* > > *(541) 231-9984 <(541)+231-9984>* | *ryan at mayfield.energy > * > > www.mayfield.energy > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 12:32:15 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 09:32:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge Storedge backup operation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Only if you turn off the disconnect on the inverter or the inverter itself, otherwise all will remain active. JERRY On Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 5:52 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > Is this article correct when it states that the solar modules will shut > down in the event of a power outage with the Storedge system? > > > https://www.solaris-shop.com/blog/hybrid-solar-systems-what-you-need-to-know/ > > > That seems like a pretty weak offering if that's true. It seems to > contradict Solaredge documentation. > > Thanks > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Fri Aug 21 18:31:48 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander, VT Solar, LLC) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 18:31:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge Storedge backup operation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: short answer: no. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 29th Anniversary 1991-2020 www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 8/21/2020 8:52:35 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: Hi Wrenches, Is this article correct when it states that the solar modules will shut down in the event of a power outage with the Storedge system? https://www.solaris-shop.com/blog/hybrid-solar-systems-what-you-need-to-know/ [https://www.solaris-shop.com/blog/hybrid-solar-systems-what-you-need-to-know/] That seems like a pretty weak offering if that's true. It seems to contradict Solaredge documentation. Thanks -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Sat Aug 22 00:02:56 2020 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 21:02:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Don Harris Message-ID: <1598069188741.4fa62e2d6c878626@re-wrenches.org> Hi gang. Any questions, contact me off-list. Pioneer hydro-maniac Don Harris had to abandon his home and shop this week due to the Santa Cruz fire complex. He's 90% sure he lost it all, because when he left burning embers were falling all around. Anyway, he'd love to hear from his friends, it would help keep his spirits up -- though he sounded good when I talked to him yesterday. If you want to be in touch, contact me off list for his phone number. Thanks to Jay Peltz for the heads up on this. From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Aug 24 14:35:54 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 14:35:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld Sunmodule Plus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Since I'm not finding anything, I'd like to open this up to any 60-cell module with a 33mm frame depth, preferable BoW. On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 11:10 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > If anyone has a module around with black frame, white backsheet, I have a > client looking for one to replace a shattered module. Optimizer system. > Watt rating not critical. > > Please contact me off list. > > > > > *Jason Szumlanski* > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 17:54:22 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 14:54:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] lithium battery question Message-ID: <81E043BE-A5B6-4AE6-8266-C56FEEF7D427@gmail.com> Dear lithium experts Do lithium LFP or NMC batteries have a break in period ( a certain number of cycles or any other specific parameters) to have full capacity? Thx jay peltz power From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Aug 24 18:24:31 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 15:24:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] lithium battery question In-Reply-To: <81E043BE-A5B6-4AE6-8266-C56FEEF7D427@gmail.com> References: <81E043BE-A5B6-4AE6-8266-C56FEEF7D427@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have never seen this or have seen it in warranty or installer training. Why do you ask Mr. Jay :) Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 14:54:22 -0700, jay wrote: > Dear lithium experts > > Do lithium LFP or NMC batteries have a break in period ( a certain number > of cycles or any other specific parameters) to have full capacity? > > Thx > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org From emerkel15 at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 20:47:08 2020 From: emerkel15 at gmail.com (Evan M) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 20:47:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Third-party PV energy monitoring? Message-ID: Dan, I believe those WattNodes need to report to a device of some sort between it and the internet to convert the Modbus RTU signal to TCP/IP. Where does the RS-485 circuit go? I'm thinking there's likely another piece of hardware there. Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 22:20:31 2020 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 21:20:31 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IAEI Online Articles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for that info, Ryan. I noticed the following note posted on the page you linked: [Update: IAEImagazine.org is currently unavailable due to a network server error.] So hopefully it is just a temporary technology issue and free access to the article archive can be restored soon. -- Corey On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 12:41 PM Ryan Mayfield wrote: > > Looks like they changed their URL (and access style), seems odd they don't > have the old one redirect you... > > > https://www.iaei.org/Online/Magazine/Online/IAEI_Magazine.aspx?hkey=859b0900-7ea8-490b-8915-0c5993d14a89 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Aug 25 09:20:00 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 09:20:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pulsing with AC coupling Message-ID: <02c915ae586e39e95e5f2a26fa83df09@redwoodalliance.org> Hello Wrenches, An AC coupled arrangement, with an 8 kW Radian and 8 Enphase microinverters, pulses lighting at low levels of array illumination. This is generally not too much of a problem. Under certain levels of solar isolation, the pulsing becomes extreme and causes the motors in the refrigerator and air-conditioner to pulse, sometimes causing very audible vibrations. Will this harm the appliances? Is there anything that can be done to moderate or stop the pulsing? Thank you, Drake Athens Electric LLC -- From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 10:42:23 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 07:42:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pulsing with AC coupling In-Reply-To: <02c915ae586e39e95e5f2a26fa83df09@redwoodalliance.org> References: <02c915ae586e39e95e5f2a26fa83df09@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Wrenches I would think that in time there might be damage. Check to make sure the inverter is not on search but I stead "ON", next if you turn off the enphase the the outback perform normally. Check the inverter frequency to see your frequency is shifting have one that has both AC & DC Coupling and no issues. On Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 6:37 AM wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > An AC coupled arrangement, with an 8 kW Radian and 8 Enphase > microinverters, pulses lighting at low levels of array illumination. > This is generally not too much of a problem. > > Under certain levels of solar isolation, the pulsing becomes extreme and > causes the motors in the refrigerator and air-conditioner to pulse, > sometimes causing very audible vibrations. > > Will this harm the appliances? Is there anything that can be done to > moderate or stop the pulsing? > > Thank you, > > Drake > Athens Electric LLC > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Aug 25 11:20:47 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 11:20:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pulsing with AC coupling In-Reply-To: References: <02c915ae586e39e95e5f2a26fa83df09@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: The inverter is set to ON not to SEARCH. If the Enphase circuit is switched off, the pulsing stops immediately. This system has both AC and DC coupling. In another location, with a Sunny Boy AC coupled with a pair of stacked VFX3524 inverters, there is some pulsing in low light conditions. The Radian and Enphase combo is much more noticeable. --- On 2020-08-25 10:42, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > I would think that in time there might be damage. Check to make sure the inverter is not on search but I stead "ON", next if you turn off the enphase the the outback perform normally. Check the inverter frequency to see your frequency is shifting have one that has both AC & DC Coupling and no issues. > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 6:37 AM wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> An AC coupled arrangement, with an 8 kW Radian and 8 Enphase >> microinverters, pulses lighting at low levels of array illumination. >> This is generally not too much of a problem. >> >> Under certain levels of solar isolation, the pulsing becomes extreme and >> causes the motors in the refrigerator and air-conditioner to pulse, >> sometimes causing very audible vibrations. >> >> Will this harm the appliances? Is there anything that can be done to >> moderate or stop the pulsing? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> Athens Electric LLC >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] Links: ------ [1] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Aug 25 11:41:57 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 11:41:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pulsing with AC coupling In-Reply-To: References: <02c915ae586e39e95e5f2a26fa83df09@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <95aef960e98d5591c7f2d59954cdb999@redwoodalliance.org> P.S. The Radian is set to phase shift, and it reliably shuts off micro inverters at set point voltages. The issues occur at lower battery voltage, below the set points for the phase shift. --- On 2020-08-25 11:20, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > The inverter is set to ON not to SEARCH. If the Enphase circuit is switched off, the pulsing stops immediately. This system has both AC and DC coupling. > > In another location, with a Sunny Boy AC coupled with a pair of stacked VFX3524 inverters, there is some pulsing in low light conditions. The Radian and Enphase combo is much more noticeable. > > --- > > On 2020-08-25 10:42, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > I would think that in time there might be damage. Check to make sure the inverter is not on search but I stead "ON", next if you turn off the enphase the the outback perform normally. Check the inverter frequency to see your frequency is shifting have one that has both AC & DC Coupling and no issues. > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 6:37 AM wrote: Hello Wrenches, > > An AC coupled arrangement, with an 8 kW Radian and 8 Enphase > microinverters, pulses lighting at low levels of array illumination. > This is generally not too much of a problem. > > Under certain levels of solar isolation, the pulsing becomes extreme and > causes the motors in the refrigerator and air-conditioner to pulse, > sometimes causing very audible vibrations. > > Will this harm the appliances? Is there anything that can be done to > moderate or stop the pulsing? > > Thank you, > > Drake > Athens Electric LLC > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] Links: ------ [1] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 12:08:01 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 09:08:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pulsing with AC coupling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi drake I did a small enphase system with my 3524vfx some years ago. It was 3 M190’s. It had the same issues. Mostly it appeared during when the loads vs AC production were at a specific level If the AC was high and loads low, it was fine. If the ac low and loads high no issue But if they were close then I’d get the pulsing you are talking about. I don’t have a scope, best guess is its harmonics. I didn’t like the pulsing and thought that it’s bad for compressors, lights, etc so I stopped using it. I don’t know if is something specific to older vfx units or emphase or? I would take it off line Jay Peltz power. > On Aug 25, 2020, at 8:34 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > >  > The inverter is set to ON not to SEARCH. If the Enphase circuit is switched off, the pulsing stops immediately. This system has both AC and DC coupling. > > In another location, with a Sunny Boy AC coupled with a pair of stacked VFX3524 inverters, there is some pulsing in low light conditions. The Radian and Enphase combo is much more noticeable. > > --- > > > >> On 2020-08-25 10:42, Jerry Shafer wrote: >> >> Wrenches >> I would think that in time there might be damage. Check to make sure the inverter is not on search but I stead "ON", next if you turn off the enphase the the outback perform normally. Check the inverter frequency to see your frequency is shifting have one that has both AC & DC Coupling and no issues. >> >> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 6:37 AM wrote: >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> An AC coupled arrangement, with an 8 kW Radian and 8 Enphase >> microinverters, pulses lighting at low levels of array illumination. >> This is generally not too much of a problem. >> >> Under certain levels of solar isolation, the pulsing becomes extreme and >> causes the motors in the refrigerator and air-conditioner to pulse, >> sometimes causing very audible vibrations. >> >> Will this harm the appliances? Is there anything that can be done to >> moderate or stop the pulsing? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> Athens Electric LLC >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scoraigwind at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 13:40:20 2020 From: scoraigwind at gmail.com (Hugh Piggott) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 18:40:20 +0100 Subject: [RE-wrenches] lithium battery question In-Reply-To: <81E043BE-A5B6-4AE6-8266-C56FEEF7D427@gmail.com> References: <81E043BE-A5B6-4AE6-8266-C56FEEF7D427@gmail.com> Message-ID: First time I cycled my BYD batteries I got 20% more than rated kWh out of them. Based on third party Ah reading. Hugh ⁣Get BlueMail for Android ​ On 24 Aug 2020, 23:32, at 23:32, jay wrote: > >Dear lithium experts > >Do lithium LFP or NMC batteries have a break in period ( a certain >number of cycles or any other specific parameters) to have full >capacity? > >Thx > >jay > >peltz power > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Aug 25 13:40:27 2020 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 10:40:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] lithium battery question In-Reply-To: <81E043BE-A5B6-4AE6-8266-C56FEEF7D427@gmail.com> References: <81E043BE-A5B6-4AE6-8266-C56FEEF7D427@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9360F825-B60F-40E4-ADBC-2BA0E8DFEFE8@starlightsolar.com> Hello Jay, No. Battery conditioning is not necessary for Li chemistry batteries. Conditioning is used in other chemistries like NiMH and NiCd. Even LA batteries are “conditioned” and increase their capacity during the first few months of cycles. We see some confusion about Li battery for the above reasons. We also get questions about this because of the recommended initial charge that LiFeBlue Battery requires to calibrate the built in SoC meter. Basically for any Li battery, just connect it, charge it and use it. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Aug 24, 2020, at 2:54 PM, jay wrote: Dear lithium experts Do lithium LFP or NMC batteries have a break in period ( a certain number of cycles or any other specific parameters) to have full capacity? Thx jay peltz power -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Tue Aug 25 13:42:32 2020 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 17:42:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dr Pepper on Metal Roofs References: <1539244103.5446116.1598377352382.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1539244103.5446116.1598377352382@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Esteemed Solar Enthusiasts, Believe it or NOT, I just talked to a homeowner who says he witness a solar contractor spraying Dr. Pepper on his 8:12 pitched metal roof to stop from slipping.  Now I'm wondering...  Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Aug 25 13:47:55 2020 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 10:47:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] lithium battery question In-Reply-To: References: <81E043BE-A5B6-4AE6-8266-C56FEEF7D427@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D4FB9E4-1572-46E5-BDF1-06796EAAE0BE@starlightsolar.com> This is now common. As energy density increases, these cells are packaged in existing battery cases. I typically see about 15% more storage in GBS cells and about 10% for LiFeBlue Battery. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Aug 25, 2020, at 10:40 AM, Hugh Piggott wrote: First time I cycled my BYD batteries I got 20% more than rated kWh out of them. Based on third party Ah reading. Hugh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at sesre.com Tue Aug 25 13:59:35 2020 From: matt at sesre.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 17:59:35 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dr Pepper on Metal Roofs In-Reply-To: <1539244103.5446116.1598377352382@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1539244103.5446116.1598377352382.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1539244103.5446116.1598377352382@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dr. Pepper! They must be an ultra-high margin contractor! I think Korker’s boots with metal roof pads are pretty good. Cougarpaws keeps trying to come out with metal roof boots but none that I have used are perfect just yet. Cheap orange or grape soda sure has lots of sugar and will help adhere you to a roof. Good soda would probably disappear out of inventory quickly…. Matt Matt Partymiller General Manager Solar Energy Solutions, LLC 877-312-7456 matt at sesre.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Solar Energy Solutions Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 1:43 PM To: Wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dr Pepper on Metal Roofs Dear Esteemed Solar Enthusiasts, Believe it or NOT, I just talked to a homeowner who says he witness a solar contractor spraying Dr. Pepper on his 8:12 pitched metal roof to stop from slipping. Now I'm wondering... Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future. 503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 13:59:53 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 11:59:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pulsing with AC coupling In-Reply-To: <95aef960e98d5591c7f2d59954cdb999@redwoodalliance.org> References: <02c915ae586e39e95e5f2a26fa83df09@redwoodalliance.org> <95aef960e98d5591c7f2d59954cdb999@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Hi Drake, Do you have the AC coupling firmware in the Radian? It should be at least Required Firmware 001.006.070 This is a good place to start: http://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/acc_freq_app_note.pdf I have seen better results programming the Freq Shift Response Time to the lower end ie ~0.05s. Which micro version is it? Is it freq/watt capable? On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 10:09 AM wrote: > P.S. The Radian is set to phase shift, and it reliably shuts off micro > inverters at set point voltages. The issues occur at lower battery voltage, > below the set points for the phase shift. > --- > > > > On 2020-08-25 11:20, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > The inverter is set to ON not to SEARCH. If the Enphase circuit is > switched off, the pulsing stops immediately. This system has both AC and DC > coupling. > > In another location, with a Sunny Boy AC coupled with a pair of stacked > VFX3524 inverters, there is some pulsing in low light conditions. The > Radian and Enphase combo is much more noticeable. > --- > > > > On 2020-08-25 10:42, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > I would think that in time there might be damage. Check to make sure the > inverter is not on search but I stead "ON", next if you turn off the > enphase the the outback perform normally. Check the inverter frequency to > see your frequency is shifting have one that has both AC & DC Coupling and > no issues. > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 6:37 AM > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > An AC coupled arrangement, with an 8 kW Radian and 8 Enphase > microinverters, pulses lighting at low levels of array illumination. > This is generally not too much of a problem. > > Under certain levels of solar isolation, the pulsing becomes extreme and > causes the motors in the refrigerator and air-conditioner to pulse, > sometimes causing very audible vibrations. > > Will this harm the appliances? Is there anything that can be done to > moderate or stop the pulsing? > > Thank you, > > Drake > Athens Electric LLC > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kanestephenj at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 14:06:27 2020 From: kanestephenj at gmail.com (Stephen K) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:06:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dr Pepper on Metal Roofs In-Reply-To: References: <1539244103.5446116.1598377352382.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1539244103.5446116.1598377352382@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yep, confirmed. Our crews are fans of Mt Dew for this purpose...and for the post lunch slump ;). Stephen Kane Namaste Solar Boulder, CO On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 11:59 AM Matt Partymiller wrote: > Dr. Pepper! They must be an ultra-high margin contractor! > > > > I think Korker’s boots with metal roof pads are pretty good. Cougarpaws > keeps trying to come out with metal roof boots but none that I have used > are perfect just yet. Cheap orange or grape soda sure has lots of sugar > and will help adhere you to a roof. Good soda would probably disappear out > of inventory quickly…. > > > > Matt > > > > > > Matt Partymiller > > General Manager > > Solar Energy Solutions, LLC > > 877-312-7456 > > matt at sesre.com > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Solar Energy Solutions > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 25, 2020 1:43 PM > *To:* Wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Dr Pepper on Metal Roofs > > > > Dear Esteemed Solar Enthusiasts, > > > > Believe it or NOT, I just talked to a homeowner who says he witness a > solar contractor spraying Dr. Pepper on his 8:12 pitched metal roof to stop > from slipping. > > > > Now I'm wondering... > > > > > > *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* > > *President* > > > *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE* > > > *Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an > environmentally sustainable future.* > > > *503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > * > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Aug 25 14:19:13 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 11:19:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dr Pepper on Metal Roofs In-Reply-To: References: <1539244103.5446116.1598377352382.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1539244103.5446116.1598377352382@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: We use Dr. Pepper, a few drops of dawn dish soap, apple cider vinegar in a small bowl to keep flies and bugs from entering the electronics. Fly tape is good also. The only thing we put on a metal roof is rain :) Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:06:27 -0600, Stephen K wrote: Yep, confirmed. Our crews are fans of Mt Dew for this purpose...and for the post lunch slump ;). Stephen Kane Namaste Solar Boulder, CO On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 11:59 AM Matt Partymiller wrote: Dr. Pepper! They must be an ultra-high margin contractor! I think Korker's boots with metal roof pads are pretty good. Cougarpaws keeps trying to come out with metal roof boots but none that I have used are perfect just yet. Cheap orange or grape soda sure has lots of sugar and will help adhere you to a roof. Good soda would probably disappear out of inventory quickly.... Matt Matt Partymiller General Manager Solar Energy Solutions, LLC 877-312-7456 matt at sesre.com [4] FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Solar Energy Solutions SENT: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 1:43 PM TO: Wrenches SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Dr Pepper on Metal Roofs Dear Esteemed Solar Enthusiasts, Believe it or NOT, I just talked to a homeowner who says he witness a solar contractor spraying Dr. Pepper on his 8:12 pitched metal roof to stop from slipping. Now I'm wondering... ANDREW KOYAANISQATSI PRESIDENT Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. _The BRIGHT CHOICE_ Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future. 503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com [7] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:matt at sesre.com [4] mailto:matt at sesre.com [5] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://www.solarenergyoregon.com/ [8] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 14:33:53 2020 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (MiJo Nels) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 18:33:53 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dr Pepper on Metal Roofs In-Reply-To: References: <1539244103.5446116.1598377352382.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1539244103.5446116.1598377352382@mail.yahoo.com> , Message-ID: we switched to "clear" soda as the cola's and colored variety were sometimes leaving trace evidence behind on (un coated) galv roofing.. it is still critical you anchor up so the crew has something to hold onto.. Be safe out there humans!! 👍 Joe Nelson Project Manager C-46/C-10 Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation CSL# 868816 www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com 530-273-4422 (Office) 530-217-8385 (Cell)      ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 11:19:13 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Dr Pepper on Metal Roofs We use Dr. Pepper, a few drops of dawn dish soap, apple cider vinegar in a small bowl to keep flies and bugs from entering the electronics. Fly tape is good also. The only thing we put on a metal roof is rain :) Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:06:27 -0600, Stephen K wrote: Yep, confirmed. Our crews are fans of Mt Dew for this purpose...and for the post lunch slump ;). Stephen Kane Namaste Solar Boulder, CO On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 11:59 AM Matt Partymiller > wrote: Dr. Pepper! They must be an ultra-high margin contractor! I think Korker's boots with metal roof pads are pretty good. Cougarpaws keeps trying to come out with metal roof boots but none that I have used are perfect just yet. Cheap orange or grape soda sure has lots of sugar and will help adhere you to a roof. Good soda would probably disappear out of inventory quickly.... Matt Matt Partymiller General Manager Solar Energy Solutions, LLC 877-312-7456 matt at sesre.com From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Solar Energy Solutions Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 1:43 PM To: Wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dr Pepper on Metal Roofs Dear Esteemed Solar Enthusiasts, Believe it or NOT, I just talked to a homeowner who says he witness a solar contractor spraying Dr. Pepper on his 8:12 pitched metal roof to stop from slipping. Now I'm wondering... Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future. 503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Aug 25 12:30:19 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:30:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pulsing with AC coupling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We do take it off line when the pulsing is bad. --- On 2020-08-25 12:08, Jay wrote: > Hi drake > > I did a small enphase system with my 3524vfx some years ago. It was 3 M190's. > > It had the same issues. Mostly it appeared during when the loads vs AC production were at a specific level > > If the AC was high and loads low, it was fine. > If the ac low and loads high no issue > > But if they were close then I'd get the pulsing you are talking about. > I don't have a scope, best guess is its harmonics. > > I didn't like the pulsing and thought that it's bad for compressors, lights, etc so I stopped using it. > > I don't know if is something specific to older vfx units or emphase or? > > I would take it off line > > Jay > Peltz power. > >> On Aug 25, 2020, at 8:34 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > The inverter is set to ON not to SEARCH. If the Enphase circuit is switched off, the pulsing stops immediately. This system has both AC and DC coupling. > > In another location, with a Sunny Boy AC coupled with a pair of stacked VFX3524 inverters, there is some pulsing in low light conditions. The Radian and Enphase combo is much more noticeable. > > --- > > On 2020-08-25 10:42, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > I would think that in time there might be damage. Check to make sure the inverter is not on search but I stead "ON", next if you turn off the enphase the the outback perform normally. Check the inverter frequency to see your frequency is shifting have one that has both AC & DC Coupling and no issues. > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 6:37 AM wrote: Hello Wrenches, > > An AC coupled arrangement, with an 8 kW Radian and 8 Enphase > microinverters, pulses lighting at low levels of array illumination. > This is generally not too much of a problem. > > Under certain levels of solar isolation, the pulsing becomes extreme and > causes the motors in the refrigerator and air-conditioner to pulse, > sometimes causing very audible vibrations. > > Will this harm the appliances? Is there anything that can be done to > moderate or stop the pulsing? > > Thank you, > > Drake > Athens Electric LLC > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] Links: ------ [1] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Tue Aug 25 18:18:38 2020 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 18:18:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dr Pepper on Metal Roofs In-Reply-To: References: <1539244103.5446116.1598377352382.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1539244103.5446116.1598377352382@mail.yahoo.com> , Message-ID: <065e86dde72ec626f90479f7f63fa317.squirrel@mail.otelco.net> http://www.magneticshoes.com/home > we switched to "clear" soda as the cola's and colored variety were > sometimes leaving trace evidence behind on (un coated) galv roofing.. it > is still critical you anchor up so the crew has something to hold onto.. > Be safe out there humans!! 👍 > > Joe Nelson > > Project Manager C-46/C-10 > Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation > > CSL# 868816 > www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com > 530-273-4422 (Office) > > 530-217-8385 (Cell) > >  > >     > > > ________________________________ > From: RE-wrenches on behalf of > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 11:19:13 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Dr Pepper on Metal Roofs > > > We use Dr. Pepper, a few drops of dawn dish soap, apple cider vinegar in > a small bowl to keep flies and bugs from entering the electronics. Fly > tape is good also. > > The only thing we put on a metal roof is rain :) > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:06:27 -0600, Stephen K > wrote: > > Yep, confirmed. Our crews are fans of Mt Dew for this purpose...and for > the post lunch slump ;). > > Stephen Kane > Namaste Solar > Boulder, CO > > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 11:59 AM Matt Partymiller > > wrote: > > Dr. Pepper! They must be an ultra-high margin contractor! > > > > I think Korker's boots with metal roof pads are pretty good. Cougarpaws > keeps trying to come out with metal roof boots but none that I have used > are perfect just yet. Cheap orange or grape soda sure has lots of sugar > and will help adhere you to a roof. Good soda would probably disappear > out of inventory quickly.... > > > > Matt > > > > > > Matt Partymiller > > General Manager > > Solar Energy Solutions, LLC > > 877-312-7456 > > matt at sesre.com > > > > > > > > From: RE-wrenches > > > On Behalf Of Solar Energy Solutions > Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 1:43 PM > To: Wrenches > > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dr Pepper on Metal Roofs > > > > Dear Esteemed Solar Enthusiasts, > > > > Believe it or NOT, I just talked to a homeowner who says he witness a > solar contractor spraying Dr. Pepper on his 8:12 pitched metal roof to > stop from slipping. > > > > Now I'm wondering... > > > > > > Andrew Koyaanisqatsi > > President > > Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. > The BRIGHT CHOICE > > Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors > move towards an environmentally sustainable future. > > 503-238-4502 > www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 18:46:57 2020 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 17:46:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] lithium battery question In-Reply-To: <81E043BE-A5B6-4AE6-8266-C56FEEF7D427@gmail.com> References: <81E043BE-A5B6-4AE6-8266-C56FEEF7D427@gmail.com> Message-ID: They are like LA batteries and have a cycle count affect lifetime and like LA batteries the life cycle depend upon DOD per cycle. They also have a calendar life. It is generally accepted that LIFE batteries have 5000 deep cycles and 10,000 equivalent cycles if they are shallow, slow discharge and slow charge. In a LA battery the discharge state is about 1.8 x thicking of the plate. The LIFE plates thicken about 4%? so they do have a mechanically determined cycle life. AGM pure lead plates in Outback and Kilovault have a cycle life of 3000 equivalent cycles if the cycles are shallow. (meaning 50% DOD, 6000 times) The NCO type high energy density batteries have a shorter cycle life of about 1500 cycles, however Jeff Dahm has additives in Some Tesla batteries that extend this, however, you can not buy these batteries and why would you want to unless you are doing an electric car? On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 5:52 PM jay wrote: > > Dear lithium experts > > Do lithium LFP or NMC batteries have a break in period ( a certain number > of cycles or any other specific parameters) to have full capacity? > > Thx > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Aug 25 18:02:17 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 18:02:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pulsing with AC coupling In-Reply-To: References: <02c915ae586e39e95e5f2a26fa83df09@redwoodalliance.org> <95aef960e98d5591c7f2d59954cdb999@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: I just checked, and that is what is installed. --- On 2020-08-25 13:59, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Drake, > > Do you have the AC coupling firmware in the Radian? It should be at least Required Firmware 001.006.070 > > This is a good place to start: http://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/acc_freq_app_note.pdf > > I have seen better results programming the Freq Shift Response Time to the lower end ie ~0.05s. > > Which micro version is it? Is it freq/watt capable? > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 10:09 AM wrote: > > P.S. The Radian is set to phase shift, and it reliably shuts off micro inverters at set point voltages. The issues occur at lower battery voltage, below the set points for the phase shift. > > --- > > On 2020-08-25 11:20, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > The inverter is set to ON not to SEARCH. If the Enphase circuit is switched off, the pulsing stops immediately. This system has both AC and DC coupling. > > In another location, with a Sunny Boy AC coupled with a pair of stacked VFX3524 inverters, there is some pulsing in low light conditions. The Radian and Enphase combo is much more noticeable. > > --- > > On 2020-08-25 10:42, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > I would think that in time there might be damage. Check to make sure the inverter is not on search but I stead "ON", next if you turn off the enphase the the outback perform normally. Check the inverter frequency to see your frequency is shifting have one that has both AC & DC Coupling and no issues. > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 6:37 AM wrote: Hello Wrenches, > > An AC coupled arrangement, with an 8 kW Radian and 8 Enphase > microinverters, pulses lighting at low levels of array illumination. > This is generally not too much of a problem. > > Under certain levels of solar isolation, the pulsing becomes extreme and > causes the motors in the refrigerator and air-conditioner to pulse, > sometimes causing very audible vibrations. > > Will this harm the appliances? Is there anything that can be done to > moderate or stop the pulsing? > > Thank you, > > Drake > Athens Electric LLC > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] Links: ------ [1] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Tue Aug 25 20:08:20 2020 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander, VT Solar, LLC) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 20:08:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dr Pepper on Metal Roofs In-Reply-To: <065e86dde72ec626f90479f7f63fa317.squirrel@mail.otelco.net> References: <1539244103.5446116.1598377352382.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1539244103.5446116.1598377352382@mail.yahoo.com> <,> <065e86dde72ec626f90479f7f63fa317.squirrel@mail.otelco.net> Message-ID: "OFF" brand bug spray. Learned this from a roofer web site. Works great on standing seam. I can attest. Keep a can in my truck at all times. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 29th Anniversary 1991-2020 www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 8/25/2020 6:18:49 PM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote: http://www.magneticshoes.com/home > we switched to "clear" soda as the cola's and colored variety were > sometimes leaving trace evidence behind on (un coated) galv roofing.. it > is still critical you anchor up so the crew has something to hold onto.. > Be safe out there humans!! 👍 > > Joe Nelson > > Project Manager C-46/C-10 > Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation > > CSL# 868816 > www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com > 530-273-4422 (Office) > > 530-217-8385 (Cell) > >  > >     > > > ________________________________ > From: RE-wrenches on behalf of > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 11:19:13 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Dr Pepper on Metal Roofs > > > We use Dr. Pepper, a few drops of dawn dish soap, apple cider vinegar in > a small bowl to keep flies and bugs from entering the electronics. Fly > tape is good also. > > The only thing we put on a metal roof is rain :) > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:06:27 -0600, Stephen K > wrote: > > Yep, confirmed. Our crews are fans of Mt Dew for this purpose...and for > the post lunch slump ;). > > Stephen Kane > Namaste Solar > Boulder, CO > > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 11:59 AM Matt Partymiller > > wrote: > > Dr. Pepper! They must be an ultra-high margin contractor! > > > > I think Korker's boots with metal roof pads are pretty good. Cougarpaws > keeps trying to come out with metal roof boots but none that I have used > are perfect just yet. Cheap orange or grape soda sure has lots of sugar > and will help adhere you to a roof. Good soda would probably disappear > out of inventory quickly.... > > > > Matt > > > > > > Matt Partymiller > > General Manager > > Solar Energy Solutions, LLC > > 877-312-7456 > > matt at sesre.com > > > > > > > > From: RE-wrenches > > > On Behalf Of Solar Energy Solutions > Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 1:43 PM > To: Wrenches > > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dr Pepper on Metal Roofs > > > > Dear Esteemed Solar Enthusiasts, > > > > Believe it or NOT, I just talked to a homeowner who says he witness a > solar contractor spraying Dr. Pepper on his 8:12 pitched metal roof to > stop from slipping. > > > > Now I'm wondering... > > > > > > Andrew Koyaanisqatsi > > President > > Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. > The BRIGHT CHOICE > > Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors > move towards an environmentally sustainable future. > > 503-238-4502 > www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 20:41:00 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 20:41:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dr Pepper on Metal Roofs In-Reply-To: References: <1539244103.5446116.1598377352382.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1539244103.5446116.1598377352382@mail.yahoo.com> <065e86dde72ec626f90479f7f63fa317.squirrel@mail.otelco.net> Message-ID: I’m constantly on the roof and have come to appreciate Grundens and XtraTuff Deck Boots for extra traction on metal roofs. Designed for working on fishing boats, these boots have crazy grip. On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 8:33 PM Kirk Herander, VT Solar, LLC < vtsolar at icloud.com> wrote: > > > "OFF" brand bug spray. Learned this from a roofer web site. Works great on > standing seam. I can attest. Keep a can in my truck at all times. > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 29th Anniversary 1991-2020* > > *www.vermont.solar* > > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > > > > On 8/25/2020 6:18:49 PM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com < > penobscotsolar at midmaine.com> wrote: > http://www.magneticshoes.com/home > > > > > we switched to "clear" soda as the cola's and colored variety were > > sometimes leaving trace evidence behind on (un coated) galv roofing.. it > > is still critical you anchor up so the crew has something to hold onto.. > > Be safe out there humans!! 👍 > > > > Joe Nelson > > > > Project Manager C-46/C-10 > > Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation > > > > CSL# 868816 > > www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com > > 530-273-4422 (Office) > > > > 530-217-8385 (Cell) > > > >  > > > >     > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: RE-wrenches on behalf of > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 11:19:13 AM > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Dr Pepper on Metal Roofs > > > > > > We use Dr. Pepper, a few drops of dawn dish soap, apple cider vinegar in > > a small bowl to keep flies and bugs from entering the electronics. Fly > > tape is good also. > > > > The only thing we put on a metal roof is rain :) > > > > > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > > text 209 813 0060 > > > > On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:06:27 -0600, Stephen K > > wrote: > > > > Yep, confirmed. Our crews are fans of Mt Dew for this purpose...and for > > the post lunch slump ;). > > > > Stephen Kane > > Namaste Solar > > Boulder, CO > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 11:59 AM Matt Partymiller > > <>> wrote: > > > > Dr. Pepper! They must be an ultra-high margin contractor! > > > > > > > > I think Korker's boots with metal roof pads are pretty good. Cougarpaws > > keeps trying to come out with metal roof boots but none that I have used > > are perfect just yet. Cheap orange or grape soda sure has lots of sugar > > and will help adhere you to a roof. Good soda would probably disappear > > out of inventory quickly.... > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt Partymiller > > > > General Manager > > > > Solar Energy Solutions, LLC > > > > 877-312-7456 > > > > matt at sesre.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: RE-wrenches > > <>> > > On Behalf Of Solar Energy Solutions > > Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 1:43 PM > > To: Wrenches > > <>> > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dr Pepper on Metal Roofs > > > > > > > > Dear Esteemed Solar Enthusiasts, > > > > > > > > Believe it or NOT, I just talked to a homeowner who says he witness a > > solar contractor spraying Dr. Pepper on his 8:12 pitched metal roof to > > stop from slipping. > > > > > > > > Now I'm wondering... > > > > > > > > > > > > Andrew Koyaanisqatsi > > > > President > > > > Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. > > The BRIGHT CHOICE > > > > Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors > > move towards an environmentally sustainable future. > > > > 503-238-4502 > > www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: > > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Aug 26 15:49:03 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 15:49:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dr Pepper on Metal Roofs In-Reply-To: References: <1539244103.5446116.1598377352382.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1539244103.5446116.1598377352382@mail.yahoo.com> <065e86dde72ec626f90479f7f63fa317.squirrel@mail.otelco.net> Message-ID: <3B351017-81C5-4409-9806-2CA71A14CF31@swnl.net> I use a pair of magnetic boots, "Cougar Paws" be careful read & the fine print as they have many styles for “roofing” but only one for magnetic. Fit well and offer good support. when I move around on the ground I slip on a pair of “booties” over the shoes so I don’t pick up metal that might scratch the roof. These are so comforting using them tomorrow. T > On Aug 25, 2020, at 8:41 PM, Chris Sparadeo wrote: > > I’m constantly on the roof and have come to appreciate Grundens and XtraTuff Deck Boots for extra traction on metal roofs. Designed for working on fishing boats, these boots have crazy grip. > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 8:33 PM Kirk Herander, VT Solar, LLC > wrote: > > > "OFF" brand bug spray. Learned this from a roofer web site. Works great on standing seam. I can attest. Keep a can in my truck at all times. > > Kirk Herander /  <>kirkh at vermont.solar > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Celebrating our 29th Anniversary 1991-2020 > www.vermont.solar > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > 802.863.1202 >> >> >> On 8/25/2020 6:18:49 PM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com > wrote: >> >> http://www.magneticshoes.com/home >> >> >> >> > we switched to "clear" soda as the cola's and colored variety were >> > sometimes leaving trace evidence behind on (un coated) galv roofing.. it >> > is still critical you anchor up so the crew has something to hold onto.. >> > Be safe out there humans!! 👍 >> > >> > Joe Nelson >> > >> > Project Manager C-46/C-10 >> > Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation >> > >> > CSL# 868816 >> > www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com >> > 530-273-4422 (Office) >> > >> > 530-217-8385 (Cell) >> > >> >  >> > >> >     >> > >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > From: RE-wrenches on behalf of >> > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > >> > Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 11:19:13 AM >> > To: RE-wrenches >> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Dr Pepper on Metal Roofs >> > >> > >> > We use Dr. Pepper, a few drops of dawn dish soap, apple cider vinegar in >> > a small bowl to keep flies and bugs from entering the electronics. Fly >> > tape is good also. >> > >> > The only thing we put on a metal roof is rain :) >> > >> > >> > >> > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> > "we go where powerlines don't" >> > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> > text 209 813 0060 >> > >> > On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:06:27 -0600, Stephen K >> > wrote: >> > >> > Yep, confirmed. Our crews are fans of Mt Dew for this purpose...and for >> > the post lunch slump ;). >> > >> > Stephen Kane >> > Namaste Solar >> > Boulder, CO >> > >> > >> > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 11:59 AM Matt Partymiller >> > <>> wrote: >> > >> > Dr. Pepper! They must be an ultra-high margin contractor! >> > >> > >> > >> > I think Korker's boots with metal roof pads are pretty good. Cougarpaws >> > keeps trying to come out with metal roof boots but none that I have used >> > are perfect just yet. Cheap orange or grape soda sure has lots of sugar >> > and will help adhere you to a roof. Good soda would probably disappear >> > out of inventory quickly.... >> > >> > >> > >> > Matt >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Matt Partymiller >> > >> > General Manager >> > >> > Solar Energy Solutions, LLC >> > >> > 877-312-7456 >> > >> > matt at sesre.com >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > From: RE-wrenches >> > <>> >> > On Behalf Of Solar Energy Solutions >> > Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 1:43 PM >> > To: Wrenches >> > <>> >> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dr Pepper on Metal Roofs >> > >> > >> > >> > Dear Esteemed Solar Enthusiasts, >> > >> > >> > >> > Believe it or NOT, I just talked to a homeowner who says he witness a >> > solar contractor spraying Dr. Pepper on his 8:12 pitched metal roof to >> > stop from slipping. >> > >> > >> > >> > Now I'm wondering... >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Andrew Koyaanisqatsi >> > >> > President >> > >> > Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. >> > The BRIGHT CHOICE >> > >> > Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors >> > move towards an environmentally sustainable future. >> > >> > 503-238-4502 >> > www.SolarEnergyOregon.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: >> > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Aug 26 18:22:15 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 18:22:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Site Monitoring Administration Rights Transfer Form Message-ID: If anyone has a copy of this form, can you please send it to me off list? I don't understand why SolarEdge hides access to this document and makes it so hard to take over another installer's site. I'm cleaning up a lot of messes recently and it's really hard to support these service clients. *Jason Szumlanski* Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 18:47:01 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 16:47:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stackable Battery-Based systems complying to IEEE 1547-2018 standard Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I am working on a design for an all-electric home whole-house backup. The utility is requiring either an inverter listed to IEEE 1547-2018 or utilize an effective grounding transformer with associated relay control system. Im unclear whether the grounding transformer is on the customer side or on the utility side, but I'd prefer to avoid this if possible. I probably need ~20kW of continuous backup in this case. I prefer to have everything stacked if possible, but I may be able to split up my critical load panels. Has anyone worked through this issue? I was planning on Sol-Ark but they don't comply with the IEEE 1547-2018 quite yet. I'm open to suggestions. Thanks -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Aug 26 19:47:22 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 16:47:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stackable Battery-Based systems complying to IEEE 1547-2018 standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80ee0b2fe0ed120d0899b783fae6be1d@127.0.0.1> Discover AES meet residential UL 1973 and UL 9540 for insurable homes. Not sure what the IEEE spec is but would like to know. A piece of cake to stack up to 20 of the 7.5 kwh. Also a piece of cake to configure with XW+ or XWP. The 6.8 kw xw's will supply 8.5 KW for 30 minutes. A master and 2 slaves would be overkill. Extremely easy to configure and AES is closed loop into xanbus. Just set time and date. Radian would be nice also but it is still open loop and all the set-points have to go in along with other config. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 16:47:01 -0600, Mac Lewis wrote: Hi Wrenches, I am working on a design for an all-electric home whole-house backup. The utility is requiring either an inverter listed to IEEE 1547-2018 or utilize an effective grounding transformer with associated relay control system. Im unclear whether the grounding transformer is on the customer side or on the utility side, but I'd prefer to avoid this if possible. I probably need ~20kW of continuous backup in this case. I prefer to have everything stacked if possible, but I may be able to split up my critical load panels. Has anyone worked through this issue? I was planning on Sol-Ark but they don't comply with the IEEE 1547-2018 quite yet. I'm open to suggestions. Thanks -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Wed Aug 26 20:34:05 2020 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 00:34:05 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stackable Battery-Based systems complying to IEEE 1547-2018 standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac – what utility is this? My understanding is that IEEE 1547.1-2020 contains the details of the testing protocol so that devices CAN be listed to 1547-2018. It got published in late May 2020. Are ANY inverters listed yet? My understanding is testing is a months long process and that would if the testing facilities have finalized the process they will use. Sounds like a way to force the transformer choice on you… Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en.html SMA America Solar Academy webinars: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en/courses.html Choose "United States" [A picture containing drawing, food Description automatically generated] [Linkedin Logo] [cid:image003.jpg at 01D67BD7.78345910] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] Follow, Like, Share This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 4:47 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stackable Battery-Based systems complying to IEEE 1547-2018 standard Hi Wrenches, I am working on a design for an all-electric home whole-house backup. The utility is requiring either an inverter listed to IEEE 1547-2018 or utilize an effective grounding transformer with associated relay control system. Im unclear whether the grounding transformer is on the customer side or on the utility side, but I'd prefer to avoid this if possible. I probably need ~20kW of continuous backup in this case. I prefer to have everything stacked if possible, but I may be able to split up my critical load panels. Has anyone worked through this issue? I was planning on Sol-Ark but they don't comply with the IEEE 1547-2018 quite yet. I'm open to suggestions. Thanks -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16706 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 731 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 480 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 808 bytes Desc: image004.png URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 22:59:15 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 20:59:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stackable Battery-Based systems complying to IEEE 1547-2018 standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, seems a little heavy handed to require this so quickly out of the gates. This is Rocky Mountain Power specifically Eastern Utah, owned or operated by Pacific Corp. This may be a way to get the customer to pay for a transformer upgrade. They offered an alternative to this compliance by utilizing an effective grounding transformer with associated relay control system. I am gathering info on these requirements because its not clear if this is a utility side transformer or if that would be customer sided. They seem to be very concerned about these distributed resources contributing to transient overvoltage events. I will say that this area has a very high proportion of solar, its on most homes in this community, so I'm not sure how wide-spread this requirement is. On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 7:13 PM Harry Mahon wrote: > Mac – what utility is this? > > > > My understanding is that IEEE 1547.1-2020 contains the details of the > testing protocol so that devices CAN be listed to 1547-2018. It got > published in late May 2020. > > > > Are ANY inverters listed yet? My understanding is testing is a months > long process and that would if the testing facilities have finalized the > process they will use. > > > > Sounds like a way to force the transformer choice on you… > > > > Mike > > > > SMA America > *Michael Mahon* > Technical Trainer, Solar Academy > 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 > > Rocklin, CA 95765 > > U.S.A. > Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 > * www.SMA-America.com * > > > > Solar Academy: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en.html > > > > SMA America Solar Academy webinars: > https://solaracademy.sma.de/en/courses.html > > Choose "United States" > > [image: A picture containing drawing, food Description automatically > generated] > > > > > [image: Linkedin Logo] > [image: > SMAAFORUM_ICON] Follow, Like, Share > > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC > confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the > intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or > any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not > the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and > permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any > attachments thereto. Thank you. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Mac Lewis > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 26, 2020 4:47 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Stackable Battery-Based systems complying to > IEEE 1547-2018 standard > > > > Hi Wrenches, > > > > I am working on a design for an all-electric home whole-house backup. The > utility is requiring either an inverter listed to IEEE 1547-2018 or utilize > an effective grounding transformer with associated relay control system. > Im unclear whether the grounding transformer is on the customer side or on > the utility side, but I'd prefer to avoid this if possible. > > > > I probably need ~20kW of continuous backup in this case. I prefer to have > everything stacked if possible, but I may be able to split up my critical > load panels. > > > > Has anyone worked through this issue? I was planning on Sol-Ark but they > don't comply with the IEEE 1547-2018 quite yet. I'm open to suggestions. > > > > Thanks > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 808 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Aug 27 10:19:17 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 07:19:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stackable Battery-Based systems complying to IEEE 1547-2018 standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is IEEE 1547.1-2020 related to the issue in Hawaii (HEICO) too much solar and cloud events that cause the transients? RULE 21 in California kind of thing? Or, it it different please? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Thu Aug 27 11:30:57 2020 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 15:30:57 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stackable Battery-Based systems complying to IEEE 1547-2018 standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave – Related but different. CA Rule 21 and HECO Rule 14H and NE-ISO require equipment tested to UL1741 SA (which outlines what additional functions beyond UL1741 inverters must be capable of) utilizing the appropriate utility Source Requirement Document (SRD). The SRD spells out which UL 1741 SA additional functions -with set point values- each utility wants enabled . This allows for “smart inverter” functionality to prevent undesirable behavior. The objective of the IEEE 1547.x updates is to harmonize testing across the industry to provide a uniform baseline for “smart” inverter functionality/capability. I believe there will still be specific SRDs – that is, not all tested IEEE 1547-2018 functionality will be enabled by default. I vaguely remember hearing of deadline for certification being at most 18 months after publishing of the standard (which I think means the IEEE1547.1-2020 standard as that actually outlined the testing procedures for listing), which would very roughly be Jan 2022. Also, I think “Hawaii” is being very aggressive with this deadline – I think they (HECO? HELCO? Other?) have set July 1, 2021 as testing deadline? Anyone have more details? Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en.html SMA America Solar Academy webinars: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en/courses.html Choose "United States" [A picture containing drawing, food Description automatically generated] [Linkedin Logo] [cid:image003.jpg at 01D67C53.80A512C0] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] Follow, Like, Share This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 8:19 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Stackable Battery-Based systems complying to IEEE 1547-2018 standard Is IEEE 1547.1-2020 related to the issue in Hawaii (HEICO) too much solar and cloud events that cause the transients? RULE 21 in California kind of thing? Or, it it different please? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16706 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 731 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 480 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 808 bytes Desc: image004.png URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Thu Aug 27 14:31:39 2020 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 12:31:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bluetooth connection to Huawei inverter Message-ID: <2E76073D-0871-4122-9D35-37C23E0F073B@skyfireenergy.com> Wrenches, Have any of you tried to connect to a Huawei SUN2000-45KTL (or similar) with a smartphone via bluetooth? Using an iphone. They say it requires a bluetooth dongle (phone usb charging cord) which, in my mind isn’t “bluetooth” (which is wireless, isn’t it?) Anyway, when I connect to the USB port the connection cycles on/off in what seems like a consistent cycle.... connected for 3 sec, disconnected for 5 sec ...and this continues. And no “device” shows up in their app. I even went and bought a new $25 charging cord, hoping that was the issue but it does the same thing. Their tech support seems willing and somewhat helpful but while other calls from site wrk fine talking to them is a terrible connection and then there is a bit of a language barrier as well. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Aug 27 16:10:07 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 16:10:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stackable Battery-Based systems complying to IEEE 1547-2018 standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What about using an AC Coupled solution? The IEEE 1547 standard should only be applied to the grid-tied inverter in that case since the hybrid inverter is isolated when the grid is down and does not contribute to the grid sell when the grid is up if there is no solar resource on the DC side (unless configured to do so). That way you could use Enphase which I believe is a 1547-2018 approved inverter. I wonder if that would meet their requirements. I'm not up to speed on these "progressive" utility companies, but I would like to stay tuned in, so please keep us updated on the result. Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 11:00 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > Yes, seems a little heavy handed to require this so quickly out of the > gates. This is Rocky Mountain Power specifically Eastern Utah, owned or > operated by Pacific Corp. This may be a way to get the customer to pay for > a transformer upgrade. They offered an alternative to this compliance > by utilizing an effective grounding transformer with associated relay > control system. I am gathering info on these requirements because its not > clear if this is a utility side transformer or if that would be customer > sided. > > They seem to be very concerned about these distributed resources > contributing to transient overvoltage events. > > I will say that this area has a very high proportion of solar, its on most > homes in this community, so I'm not sure how wide-spread this requirement > is. > > > On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 7:13 PM Harry Mahon > wrote: > >> Mac – what utility is this? >> >> >> >> My understanding is that IEEE 1547.1-2020 contains the details of the >> testing protocol so that devices CAN be listed to 1547-2018. It got >> published in late May 2020. >> >> >> >> Are ANY inverters listed yet? My understanding is testing is a months >> long process and that would if the testing facilities have finalized the >> process they will use. >> >> >> >> Sounds like a way to force the transformer choice on you… >> >> >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> SMA America >> *Michael Mahon* >> Technical Trainer, Solar Academy >> 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 >> >> Rocklin, CA 95765 >> >> U.S.A. >> Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 >> * www.SMA-America.com >> * >> >> >> >> Solar Academy: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en.html >> >> >> >> >> SMA America Solar Academy webinars: >> https://solaracademy.sma.de/en/courses.html >> >> >> Choose "United States" >> >> [image: A picture containing drawing, food Description automatically >> generated] >> >> >> >> >> [image: Linkedin Logo] >> >> >> [image: >> SMAAFORUM_ICON] >> >> Follow, Like, Share >> >> >> >> This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC >> confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the >> intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or >> any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not >> the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and >> permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any >> attachments thereto. Thank you. >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Mac Lewis >> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 26, 2020 4:47 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Stackable Battery-Based systems complying to >> IEEE 1547-2018 standard >> >> >> >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> >> >> I am working on a design for an all-electric home whole-house backup. >> The utility is requiring either an inverter listed to IEEE 1547-2018 or >> utilize an effective grounding transformer with associated relay control >> system. Im unclear whether the grounding transformer is on the customer >> side or on the utility side, but I'd prefer to avoid this if possible. >> >> >> >> I probably need ~20kW of continuous backup in this case. I prefer to >> have everything stacked if possible, but I may be able to split up my >> critical load panels. >> >> >> >> Has anyone worked through this issue? I was planning on Sol-Ark but they >> don't comply with the IEEE 1547-2018 quite yet. I'm open to suggestions. >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16706 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 731 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 480 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 808 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Aug 27 18:44:14 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 18:44:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So the resolution to this is in... But I still have no idea what was wrong. The string of 10 offending microinverters was split into 5 and 5. We had a spare breaker in the IQ Combiner so it was relatively easy to run another branch circuit. It has been over two months with no recurrence. So the issue seems to be resolved, but again, no idea why. So here we go again... On another system we have a similar problem now. In this case it is supply side interconnected with a fusible disconnect. The same fuse (same line) keeps blowing every few to several weeks. We can't find any home run wiring issues or issues with terminator caps. There are no apparent faults in the AC Combiner. We have no idea why this is happening. But in this system, just the fuse blows, not one of the individual branch circuit breakers. This is getting very frustrating. And this is way more serious because fuses and service calls are expensive and I can't isolate the issue to one branch circuit. I don't even know where to start. Leaving each circuit disconnected for several weeks to prove a negative is an untenable suggestion to make to a client. But I don't see any other good options. Jason Szumlanski On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 3:42 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Yes, we double-checked that. I have seen that happen before and it's one > of my early diagnostic steps for something like this. > > > > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:18 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > >> Hi Jason, >> >> Are you certain that the branch circuits aren't crisscrossed somewhere, >> meaning that an L1 branch 1, isn't connected to an L2 branch 2? That could >> explain two different breakers tripping. >> >> Good luck >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 1:07 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> Undoubtedly, the termination caps are the second thing we check after >>> the rooftop junction box(es). These are prone to installation errors, even >>> when the right parts are used. And given the cost, I've thought very long >>> and hard about abandoning them altogether and terminating strings in small >>> j-boxes with watertight fittings. But in this case, there was no evidence >>> of improper installation (we replaced them) and it was not correlated to >>> rain events. >>> >>> We are well equipped with bare Q-cable and field wireables that we could >>> use for troubleshooting to bypass certain sections, but the intermittent >>> nature of the problem and unpredictable timeframe between faults is very >>> frustrating. While this is a rare occurrence, it is definitely a "con" to >>> consider when comparing string vs. microinverters that I had not strongly >>> considered in the past. I'm intent on getting to the bottom of this in >>> order to learn what to look for in the future and how to approach diagnoses >>> of Enphase branch circuit faults. >>> >>> Jason >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 2:31 PM Amos Post >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I was just at a site last week where the Enphase branch circuit >>>> breaker, outside utility disconnect breaker, and feed breaker in the main >>>> panel all tripped simultaneously, and it happened about 1 hour before I >>>> showed up onsite. The customer said it had happened 1 other time last fall >>>> but that time it was just the 1 branch circuit in the Enphase combiner >>>> panel. Interestingly the customer mentioned that he had just washed off >>>> the panels, also about 1 hour before I got there. I went on the roof and >>>> found that the installing contractor had not put on the Enphase termination >>>> caps. 1 string was wire-nutted with regular wire nuts and sitting on the >>>> roof, and the roof was damp right there. This was a fairly flat roof. The >>>> other micro trunk cable was just cut with no protection at all, tied to the >>>> rail… >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Amos Post >>>> Integrity Energy >>>> W 802.763.7023 >>>> C 802.291.2188 >>>> ienergyVT.com >>>> >>>> Facebook >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 2:05 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> The breaker in the main panel IS tripping simultaneously with one of >>>> the branch circuit breakers each time. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 12:43 PM Jay wrote: >>>> >>>>> A question that keeps nagging me is why do these breakers trip and not >>>>> the breaker in the main panel? >>>>> Presuming there is a 40 amp in the main >>>>> >>>>> I would have thought that given all the times the breakers have >>>>> tripped at some point that one would have tripped and I can’t understand >>>>> why not? >>>>> >>>>> Jay >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jerry Shafer >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> Wrenches >>>>> Looking g at the bigger breaker tripping at the same time is very >>>>> likely do to response time of the breaker nothing more. As l suggested in a >>>>> previous message. Use a non bridged breaker to see if it is one or both >>>>> legs that trip. Also an eguage will help to see what if anything leads up >>>>> to the failure and when. >>>>> Jerry >>>>> Jerry >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 7:58 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I wonder about that. Of course, it could be the "inverter output >>>>>> circuit" having a fault in the wiring still (an intermittent issue >>>>>> somewhere within the IQ cable or home run wiring). But internal to the >>>>>> microinverter, is it possible that a fault could still occur at night? I >>>>>> had a suggestion from another wrench that there are film capacitors on the >>>>>> AC output side, but are these isolated when there is no DC input? It seems >>>>>> unlikely that this would be an issue, but I have seen microinverters >>>>>> reporting a couple of watts at night (in Enlighten). I'm not sure how real >>>>>> that is. >>>>>> >>>>>> The overriding question I have is what kind of fault would cause BOTH >>>>>> a branch circuit and the main solar breaker to trip simultaneously? That >>>>>> seems odd to me. If any normal load branch circuit has a fault, you don't >>>>>> often see premises main breakers tripping, or even feeder circuit breakers. >>>>>> >>>>>> I got to thinking that maybe there is some kind of issue between the >>>>>> BR220 and CH240 breakers not playing nicely together. But I would think >>>>>> this would be a well-known issue because I'm sure there are tons of CH >>>>>> feeder breakers in the wild with BR branch circuits downstream. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 9:25 AM >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> If it trips at night, we know it is not the output from the >>>>>>> inverters causing the tripping. The current must be coming from the grid. >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 2020-06-01 12:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's not weather. It's at all times of the day and night, and I >>>>>>> confirmed that there is no correlation to rain or high winds. That was my >>>>>>> first suspicion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:27 AM Ray wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is it at all weather related? Rain, or high humidity? High >>>>>>> temperatures? Do you have any indication what time of day it trips off at? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit >>>>>>> breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker >>>>>>> they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks >>>>>>> and then trip again. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole >>>>>>> system apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel >>>>>>> that I need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive >>>>>>> proposition. I really don't know what else to do at this point. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we >>>>>>> will see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I >>>>>>> have two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined >>>>>>> breaker. I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping >>>>>>> simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have >>>>>>> never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen >>>>>>> many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would >>>>>>> be replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and >>>>>>> max string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the >>>>>>> string's associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped >>>>>>> again. We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the >>>>>>> breaker was less than perfect from the start as we've add equally nice days >>>>>>> since. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 >>>>>>> watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra >>>>>>> careful going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max >>>>>>> published... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My story. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Scot >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>>>>>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>>>>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>>>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and >>>>>>> Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters >>>>>>> each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers >>>>>>> and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been >>>>>>> tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 >>>>>>> months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >>>>>>> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, >>>>>>> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different >>>>>>> branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We >>>>>>> checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely >>>>>>> that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched >>>>>>> out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers >>>>>>> crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another >>>>>>> diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One >>>>>>> thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible >>>>>>> disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line >>>>>>> fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if >>>>>>> there is in fact a fault. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase >>>>>>> systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned >>>>>>> out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on >>>>>>> different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault >>>>>>> which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out >>>>>>> of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This >>>>>>> case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 20:40:19 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 17:40:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CB409FE-E9AB-460C-BDBD-FB0F527C1767@gmail.com> Hi Jason One thought I have about the blowing fuse is to check it with a IR tool. I suspect a poor connection of the fuse to holder which during higher air temp is causing it to fail. I’m assuming that the correct amp size and slow blow fuse Is installed and that the wire connections are done correctly. But again an IR tool during peak heat would be a good test. About the enphase fix, wow what a head scratcher. But given that it’s fixed it means that it’s not a short, but enough amps going through over enough time to trip it. I wonder if a magnetic hydraulic vs thermal breaker ( CBI vs CH etc) would have worked? Is that breaker box ever in the sun? Is there any Correlation between high ambient temperatures and tripping? It sure would keep me up at night too Jay > On Aug 27, 2020, at 4:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >  > So the resolution to this is in... But I still have no idea what was wrong. > > The string of 10 offending microinverters was split into 5 and 5. We had a spare breaker in the IQ Combiner so it was relatively easy to run another branch circuit. It has been over two months with no recurrence. So the issue seems to be resolved, but again, no idea why. > > So here we go again... On another system we have a similar problem now. In this case it is supply side interconnected with a fusible disconnect. The same fuse (same line) keeps blowing every few to several weeks. We can't find any home run wiring issues or issues with terminator caps. There are no apparent faults in the AC Combiner. We have no idea why this is happening. But in this system, just the fuse blows, not one of the individual branch circuit breakers. > > This is getting very frustrating. And this is way more serious because fuses and service calls are expensive and I can't isolate the issue to one branch circuit. I don't even know where to start. Leaving each circuit disconnected for several weeks to prove a negative is an untenable suggestion to make to a client. But I don't see any other good options. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 3:42 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> Yes, we double-checked that. I have seen that happen before and it's one of my early diagnostic steps for something like this. >> >> >> >> >>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:18 AM Mac Lewis wrote: >>> Hi Jason, >>> >>> Are you certain that the branch circuits aren't crisscrossed somewhere, meaning that an L1 branch 1, isn't connected to an L2 branch 2? That could explain two different breakers tripping. >>> >>> Good luck >>> >>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 1:07 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>> Undoubtedly, the termination caps are the second thing we check after the rooftop junction box(es). These are prone to installation errors, even when the right parts are used. And given the cost, I've thought very long and hard about abandoning them altogether and terminating strings in small j-boxes with watertight fittings. But in this case, there was no evidence of improper installation (we replaced them) and it was not correlated to rain events. >>>> >>>> We are well equipped with bare Q-cable and field wireables that we could use for troubleshooting to bypass certain sections, but the intermittent nature of the problem and unpredictable timeframe between faults is very frustrating. While this is a rare occurrence, it is definitely a "con" to consider when comparing string vs. microinverters that I had not strongly considered in the past. I'm intent on getting to the bottom of this in order to learn what to look for in the future and how to approach diagnoses of Enphase branch circuit faults. >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 2:31 PM Amos Post wrote: >>>>> I was just at a site last week where the Enphase branch circuit breaker, outside utility disconnect breaker, and feed breaker in the main panel all tripped simultaneously, and it happened about 1 hour before I showed up onsite. The customer said it had happened 1 other time last fall but that time it was just the 1 branch circuit in the Enphase combiner panel. Interestingly the customer mentioned that he had just washed off the panels, also about 1 hour before I got there. I went on the roof and found that the installing contractor had not put on the Enphase termination caps. 1 string was wire-nutted with regular wire nuts and sitting on the roof, and the roof was damp right there. This was a fairly flat roof. The other micro trunk cable was just cut with no protection at all, tied to the rail… >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Amos Post >>>>> Integrity Energy >>>>> W 802.763.7023 >>>>> C 802.291.2188 >>>>> ienergyVT.com >>>>> Facebook >>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 2:05 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> The breaker in the main panel IS tripping simultaneously with one of the branch circuit breakers each time. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 12:43 PM Jay wrote: >>>>>>> A question that keeps nagging me is why do these breakers trip and not the breaker in the main panel? >>>>>>> Presuming there is a 40 amp in the main >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would have thought that given all the times the breakers have tripped at some point that one would have tripped and I can’t understand why not? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>> Wrenches >>>>>>>> Looking g at the bigger breaker tripping at the same time is very likely do to response time of the breaker nothing more. As l suggested in a previous message. Use a non bridged breaker to see if it is one or both legs that trip. Also an eguage will help to see what if anything leads up to the failure and when. >>>>>>>> Jerry >>>>>>>> Jerry >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 7:58 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>>> I wonder about that. Of course, it could be the "inverter output circuit" having a fault in the wiring still (an intermittent issue somewhere within the IQ cable or home run wiring). But internal to the microinverter, is it possible that a fault could still occur at night? I had a suggestion from another wrench that there are film capacitors on the AC output side, but are these isolated when there is no DC input? It seems unlikely that this would be an issue, but I have seen microinverters reporting a couple of watts at night (in Enlighten). I'm not sure how real that is. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The overriding question I have is what kind of fault would cause BOTH a branch circuit and the main solar breaker to trip simultaneously? That seems odd to me. If any normal load branch circuit has a fault, you don't often see premises main breakers tripping, or even feeder circuit breakers. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I got to thinking that maybe there is some kind of issue between the BR220 and CH240 breakers not playing nicely together. But I would think this would be a well-known issue because I'm sure there are tons of CH feeder breakers in the wild with BR branch circuits downstream. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 9:25 AM wrote: >>>>>>>>>> If it trips at night, we know it is not the output from the inverters causing the tripping. The current must be coming from the grid. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 2020-06-01 12:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It's not weather. It's at all times of the day and night, and I confirmed that there is no correlation to rain or high winds. That was my first suspicion. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:27 AM Ray wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Is it at all weather related? Rain, or high humidity? High temperatures? Do you have any indication what time of day it trips off at? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>>>>>>> On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks and then trip again. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole system apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel that I need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive proposition. I really don't know what else to do at this point. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we will see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I have two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined breaker. I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would be replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string's associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped again. We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the breaker was less than perfect from the start as we've add equally nice days since. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra careful going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> My story. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Scot >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if there is in fact a fault. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Thu Aug 27 21:08:55 2020 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 19:08:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bluetooth connection to Huawei inverter In-Reply-To: <2E76073D-0871-4122-9D35-37C23E0F073B@skyfireenergy.com> References: <2E76073D-0871-4122-9D35-37C23E0F073B@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <55372DB6-E2DB-4F75-9C70-0136FC15FCA4@skyfireenergy.com> Wrenches, Huawei sent me a video link that displays their Bluetooth dongle as what looks like a (optional) thumb drive which would emit the Bluetooth signal. I guess now I know what that is. This still did not resolve the issue of the intermittent connection when I tried to connect my phone into the inverter with the charging cord. My apprentice had a newer Google pixel phone which we were able to connect successfully. However, there was still A couple of times where his connection was intermittent like mine. They have not yet gotten back to me on that issue. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 > On Aug 27, 2020, at 12:31 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > Wrenches, > Have any of you tried to connect to a Huawei SUN2000-45KTL (or similar) with a smartphone via bluetooth? Using an iphone. > They say it requires a bluetooth dongle (phone usb charging cord) which, in my mind isn’t “bluetooth” (which is wireless, isn’t it?) > > Anyway, when I connect to the USB port the connection cycles on/off in what seems like a consistent cycle.... connected for 3 sec, disconnected for 5 sec ...and this continues. And no “device” shows up in their app. > > I even went and bought a new $25 charging cord, hoping that was the issue but it does the same thing. > > Their tech support seems willing and somewhat helpful but while other calls from site wrk fine talking to them is a terrible connection and then there is a bit of a language barrier as well. > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy > 780-906-7807 From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 21:22:57 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 18:22:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches On the latest enphase issue withe fuses, swap leads L1 to L2 and to L1 and wait if its the same fuse or same leg. Jerry On Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 4:29 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > So the resolution to this is in... But I still have no idea what was > wrong. > > The string of 10 offending microinverters was split into 5 and 5. We had a > spare breaker in the IQ Combiner so it was relatively easy to run another > branch circuit. It has been over two months with no recurrence. So the > issue seems to be resolved, but again, no idea why. > > So here we go again... On another system we have a similar problem now. In > this case it is supply side interconnected with a fusible disconnect. The > same fuse (same line) keeps blowing every few to several weeks. We can't > find any home run wiring issues or issues with terminator caps. There are > no apparent faults in the AC Combiner. We have no idea why this is > happening. But in this system, just the fuse blows, not one of the > individual branch circuit breakers. > > This is getting very frustrating. And this is way more serious because > fuses and service calls are expensive and I can't isolate the issue to one > branch circuit. I don't even know where to start. Leaving each circuit > disconnected for several weeks to prove a negative is an untenable > suggestion to make to a client. But I don't see any other good options. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 3:42 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Yes, we double-checked that. I have seen that happen before and it's one >> of my early diagnostic steps for something like this. >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:18 AM Mac Lewis wrote: >> >>> Hi Jason, >>> >>> Are you certain that the branch circuits aren't crisscrossed somewhere, >>> meaning that an L1 branch 1, isn't connected to an L2 branch 2? That could >>> explain two different breakers tripping. >>> >>> Good luck >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 1:07 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Undoubtedly, the termination caps are the second thing we check after >>>> the rooftop junction box(es). These are prone to installation errors, even >>>> when the right parts are used. And given the cost, I've thought very long >>>> and hard about abandoning them altogether and terminating strings in small >>>> j-boxes with watertight fittings. But in this case, there was no evidence >>>> of improper installation (we replaced them) and it was not correlated to >>>> rain events. >>>> >>>> We are well equipped with bare Q-cable and field wireables that we >>>> could use for troubleshooting to bypass certain sections, but the >>>> intermittent nature of the problem and unpredictable timeframe between >>>> faults is very frustrating. While this is a rare occurrence, it is >>>> definitely a "con" to consider when comparing string vs. microinverters >>>> that I had not strongly considered in the past. I'm intent on getting to >>>> the bottom of this in order to learn what to look for in the future and how >>>> to approach diagnoses of Enphase branch circuit faults. >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 2:31 PM Amos Post >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I was just at a site last week where the Enphase branch circuit >>>>> breaker, outside utility disconnect breaker, and feed breaker in the main >>>>> panel all tripped simultaneously, and it happened about 1 hour before I >>>>> showed up onsite. The customer said it had happened 1 other time last fall >>>>> but that time it was just the 1 branch circuit in the Enphase combiner >>>>> panel. Interestingly the customer mentioned that he had just washed off >>>>> the panels, also about 1 hour before I got there. I went on the roof and >>>>> found that the installing contractor had not put on the Enphase termination >>>>> caps. 1 string was wire-nutted with regular wire nuts and sitting on the >>>>> roof, and the roof was damp right there. This was a fairly flat roof. The >>>>> other micro trunk cable was just cut with no protection at all, tied to the >>>>> rail… >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Amos Post >>>>> Integrity Energy >>>>> W 802.763.7023 >>>>> C 802.291.2188 >>>>> ienergyVT.com >>>>> >>>>> Facebook >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 2:05 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The breaker in the main panel IS tripping simultaneously with one of >>>>> the branch circuit breakers each time. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 12:43 PM Jay wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> A question that keeps nagging me is why do these breakers trip and >>>>>> not the breaker in the main panel? >>>>>> Presuming there is a 40 amp in the main >>>>>> >>>>>> I would have thought that given all the times the breakers have >>>>>> tripped at some point that one would have tripped and I can’t understand >>>>>> why not? >>>>>> >>>>>> Jay >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jerry Shafer >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>  >>>>>> Wrenches >>>>>> Looking g at the bigger breaker tripping at the same time is very >>>>>> likely do to response time of the breaker nothing more. As l suggested in a >>>>>> previous message. Use a non bridged breaker to see if it is one or both >>>>>> legs that trip. Also an eguage will help to see what if anything leads up >>>>>> to the failure and when. >>>>>> Jerry >>>>>> Jerry >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 7:58 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I wonder about that. Of course, it could be the "inverter output >>>>>>> circuit" having a fault in the wiring still (an intermittent issue >>>>>>> somewhere within the IQ cable or home run wiring). But internal to the >>>>>>> microinverter, is it possible that a fault could still occur at night? I >>>>>>> had a suggestion from another wrench that there are film capacitors on the >>>>>>> AC output side, but are these isolated when there is no DC input? It seems >>>>>>> unlikely that this would be an issue, but I have seen microinverters >>>>>>> reporting a couple of watts at night (in Enlighten). I'm not sure how real >>>>>>> that is. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The overriding question I have is what kind of fault would cause >>>>>>> BOTH a branch circuit and the main solar breaker to trip simultaneously? >>>>>>> That seems odd to me. If any normal load branch circuit has a fault, you >>>>>>> don't often see premises main breakers tripping, or even feeder circuit >>>>>>> breakers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I got to thinking that maybe there is some kind of issue between the >>>>>>> BR220 and CH240 breakers not playing nicely together. But I would think >>>>>>> this would be a well-known issue because I'm sure there are tons of CH >>>>>>> feeder breakers in the wild with BR branch circuits downstream. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 9:25 AM >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If it trips at night, we know it is not the output from the >>>>>>>> inverters causing the tripping. The current must be coming from the grid. >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 2020-06-01 12:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It's not weather. It's at all times of the day and night, and I >>>>>>>> confirmed that there is no correlation to rain or high winds. That was my >>>>>>>> first suspicion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:27 AM Ray wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is it at all weather related? Rain, or high humidity? High >>>>>>>> temperatures? Do you have any indication what time of day it trips off at? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit >>>>>>>> breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker >>>>>>>> they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks >>>>>>>> and then trip again. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole >>>>>>>> system apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel >>>>>>>> that I need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive >>>>>>>> proposition. I really don't know what else to do at this point. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we >>>>>>>> will see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I >>>>>>>> have two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined >>>>>>>> breaker. I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping >>>>>>>> simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have >>>>>>>> never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen >>>>>>>> many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would >>>>>>>> be replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and >>>>>>>> max string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the >>>>>>>> string's associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped >>>>>>>> again. We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the >>>>>>>> breaker was less than perfect from the start as we've add equally nice days >>>>>>>> since. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 >>>>>>>> watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra >>>>>>>> careful going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max >>>>>>>> published... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My story. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Scot >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>>>>>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>>>>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and >>>>>>>> Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters >>>>>>>> each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers >>>>>>>> and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been >>>>>>>> tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 >>>>>>>> months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >>>>>>>> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, >>>>>>>> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a >>>>>>>> different branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped >>>>>>>> simultaneously. We checked that branch circuit and could not find any >>>>>>>> fault. It seems unlikely that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, >>>>>>>> so we have now switched out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the >>>>>>>> culprit. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers >>>>>>>> crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another >>>>>>>> diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One >>>>>>>> thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible >>>>>>>> disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line >>>>>>>> fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if >>>>>>>> there is in fact a fault. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase >>>>>>>> systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned >>>>>>>> out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on >>>>>>>> different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault >>>>>>>> which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out >>>>>>>> of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This >>>>>>>> case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 23:50:41 2020 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 22:50:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown on Parking Garage Message-ID: Code gurus, It seems that a parking garage is properly considered to be a "building" under NEC Article 100 definitions—and that 690.12 rapid shutdown requirements would therefore apply. I am wondering if anyone has successfully argued that 690.12 should *not* apply to systems installed on the top deck of a parking garage? -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Fri Aug 28 08:17:45 2020 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 08:17:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown on Parking Garage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Corey, that's a real can of worms that can go either way depending on the AHJ. We've spent quite a few hours trying to develop a better approach for 2023, not that that'll help you anytime soon. I can say that you'll twist yourself into knots with the NEC® definitions of building and structure, and still not be clear. I would recommend digging into the building and fire codes that are enforced locally - they have different classifications of buildings and structures, and while they are not directly referenced by the NEC®, you may be able to get local officials to "work with you" based on the language in them. (For example, a 2023 proposal is to exempt buildings that don't have habitable rooms, which is defined in the 2020 NEC®; other building types as defined in the IBC may provide the basis for exempting a current carport application, but YMMV). Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 11:50 PM Corey Shalanski wrote: > Code gurus, > > It seems that a parking garage is properly considered to be a "building" > under NEC Article 100 definitions—and that 690.12 rapid shutdown > requirements would therefore apply. > > I am wondering if anyone has successfully argued that 690.12 should *not* > apply to systems installed on the top deck of a parking garage? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 10:03:48 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 07:03:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown on Parking Garage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches I have done several canopies, warehouses all considered non habitable and therefore did not require an RSD. AHJ's all can interpit buildings slightly different including construction materials used so a conversion with the AHJ is a safe solution and prevent permit kickbacks and re-writes. I am in California and Hawaii for prospective. Jerry On Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 8:50 PM Corey Shalanski wrote: > Code gurus, > > It seems that a parking garage is properly considered to be a "building" > under NEC Article 100 definitions—and that 690.12 rapid shutdown > requirements would therefore apply. > > I am wondering if anyone has successfully argued that 690.12 should *not* > apply to systems installed on the top deck of a parking garage? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 03:20:43 2020 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 21:20:43 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown on Parking Garage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sounds like everything is a building in the 2020 code.. Here is the 2020 NEC Article 100 Definition: - *Building.* A structure that stands alone or that is separated from adjoining structures by firewalls. The 2020 NEC Handbook has this note after the definition: - A building is generally considered to be a roofed or walled structure that is intended for supporting or sheltering any use or occupancy. However, a separate structure such as a pole, or billboard sign.or water tower may also be considered to be a building. Definitions of the terms fire walls and fire doors are the responsibilities of the building codes. Generically, a fire wall may be defined as a wall that separates buildings or subdivides a building to prevent the spread of fire and that has a fire resistance rating and structural stability. James B. Rudolph Independent Energy C-36080 ES #10816 NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2009 #091209-155 C. 808.313.9701 On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 5:50 PM Corey Shalanski wrote: > Code gurus, > > It seems that a parking garage is properly considered to be a "building" > under NEC Article 100 definitions—and that 690.12 rapid shutdown > requirements would therefore apply. > > I am wondering if anyone has successfully argued that 690.12 should *not* > apply to systems installed on the top deck of a parking garage? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Aug 29 17:55:59 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 14:55:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Modifying a plumbing vent Message-ID: <8e86aabde9313212355965bf6c2f94a5@mail.gmail.com> Friends: Over all these years I have always been able to work around plumbing vents. Now I find one that is just in the way. My foreman suggests we 90 it out of the way, and makes the point that there are vent 90s in the walls all the time. Is there any concern about this practice? Thanks in advance. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 18:53:59 2020 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 16:53:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Modifying a plumbing vent In-Reply-To: <8e86aabde9313212355965bf6c2f94a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <8e86aabde9313212355965bf6c2f94a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Plumbing vents don't need to rise very far to be effective; I think the UBC says 2 inches above the flashing is fine....BUT (at least in my county) any kind of modification to the plumbing system, like cutting a vent shorter or installing a vent 90 and running it to anywhere, will need to be approved and signed off on by a licensed plumber...and possibly performed by a plumber too. Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 4:17 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > Over all these years I have always been able to work around plumbing > vents. Now I find one that is just in the way. My foreman suggests we 90 > it out of the way, and makes the point that there are vent 90s in the walls > all the time. Is there any concern about this practice? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William > > > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Sat Aug 29 18:56:22 2020 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 17:56:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Modifying a plumbing vent In-Reply-To: <8e86aabde9313212355965bf6c2f94a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <8e86aabde9313212355965bf6c2f94a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I've done it numerous times, William. Just use the 1/4 inch per foot drop rule so that the rain runs down. On Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 5:17 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > Over all these years I have always been able to work around plumbing > vents. Now I find one that is just in the way. My foreman suggests we 90 > it out of the way, and makes the point that there are vent 90s in the walls > all the time. Is there any concern about this practice? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William > > > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 19:07:10 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 16:07:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Modifying a plumbing vent In-Reply-To: <8e86aabde9313212355965bf6c2f94a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <8e86aabde9313212355965bf6c2f94a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I have relocated roof vents several times, just have to make sure they comply, no P traps, flat or downward trends. Fasten correctly to the rafters, sealing both old and new. If you want to do this on the roof under the modules same rules apply. Jerry On Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 3:17 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > Over all these years I have always been able to work around plumbing > vents. Now I find one that is just in the way. My foreman suggests we 90 > it out of the way, and makes the point that there are vent 90s in the walls > all the time. Is there any concern about this practice? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William > > > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Sat Aug 29 23:37:50 2020 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Scot Arey) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 03:37:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Modifying a plumbing vent In-Reply-To: References: <8e86aabde9313212355965bf6c2f94a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2225D1DE8B1FA5EA.8767b596-fdcc-422e-ba67-6c578fc5f431@mail.outlook.com> Complete game changer. I stumbled upon it in Fine Homebuilding article and was surprised this was not more widely known. Vent pipes can be reduced in height. Details in plumbing section. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.iccsafe.org/wp-content/uploads/2018-IRC-UPDATE-Handout-9-1-17.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiGv-zC_cHrAhVIeawKHcMWDqsQFjAMegQIARAC&usg=AOvVaw36RmseBH_BsTWca5GZc6jd Howard "Scot" Arey owner, Solar CenTex 254 300 1228 On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 6:07 PM -0500, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: I have relocated roof vents several times, just have to make sure they comply, no P traps, flat or downward trends. Fasten correctly to the rafters, sealing both old and new. If you want to do this on the roof under the modules same rules apply.Jerry On Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 3:17 PM William Miller wrote: Friends:   Over all these years I have always been able to work around plumbing vents.  Now I find one that is just in the way.  My foreman suggests we 90 it out of the way, and makes the point that there are vent 90s in the walls all the time.  Is there any concern about this practice?   Thanks in advance.   William     Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985     _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 05:48:04 2020 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 04:48:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Modifying a plumbing vent In-Reply-To: References: <8e86aabde9313212355965bf6c2f94a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I think the earlier code required a 45 degree slope for any vent above ceiling, attic space On Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 6:07 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > I have relocated roof vents several times, just have to make sure they > comply, no P traps, flat or downward trends. Fasten correctly to the > rafters, sealing both old and new. If you want to do this on the roof under > the modules same rules apply. > Jerry > > On Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 3:17 PM William Miller > wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> Over all these years I have always been able to work around plumbing >> vents. Now I find one that is just in the way. My foreman suggests we 90 >> it out of the way, and makes the point that there are vent 90s in the walls >> all the time. Is there any concern about this practice? >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 18:45:00 2020 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Jesse Dahl) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 17:45:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Modifying a plumbing vent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E1EB1B8-299D-408D-8AAC-9DA615B93977@gmail.com> My state requires a licensed plumber to move a vent stack. I saw a vent last winter that got cut short for the array to go over it and it had froze up from condensation and caused the odor for the vent to back up into the house. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 30, 2020, at 4:48 AM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > >  > I think the earlier code required a 45 degree slope for any vent above ceiling, attic space > > >> On Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 6:07 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: >> I have relocated roof vents several times, just have to make sure they comply, no P traps, flat or downward trends. Fasten correctly to the rafters, sealing both old and new. If you want to do this on the roof under the modules same rules apply. >> Jerry >> >>> On Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 3:17 PM William Miller wrote: >>> Friends: >>> >>> >>> >>> Over all these years I have always been able to work around plumbing vents. Now I find one that is just in the way. My foreman suggests we 90 it out of the way, and makes the point that there are vent 90s in the walls all the time. Is there any concern about this practice? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks in advance. >>> >>> >>> >>> William >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Aug 30 17:49:52 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 17:49:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Modifying a plumbing vent In-Reply-To: <8e86aabde9313212355965bf6c2f94a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <8e86aabde9313212355965bf6c2f94a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I have never used one, but there is this: https://solarroofjack.com/ On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 6:17 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > Over all these years I have always been able to work around plumbing > vents. Now I find one that is just in the way. My foreman suggests we 90 > it out of the way, and makes the point that there are vent 90s in the walls > all the time. Is there any concern about this practice? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William > > > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Aug 30 17:54:06 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 17:54:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: <8CB409FE-E9AB-460C-BDBD-FB0F527C1767@gmail.com> References: <8CB409FE-E9AB-460C-BDBD-FB0F527C1767@gmail.com> Message-ID: The tripping breaker occurred at random times, even at night. No weather-related correlation. I have more research to do to see when this fuse issue is happening, but previous visits showed no water ingress. I'm not sure about temperature. On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 8:51 PM Jay wrote: > Hi Jason > > One thought I have about the blowing fuse is to check it with a IR tool. > > I suspect a poor connection of the fuse to holder which during higher air > temp is causing it to fail. > I’m assuming that the correct amp size and slow blow fuse Is installed and > that the wire connections are done correctly. But again an IR tool during > peak heat would be a good test. > > About the enphase fix, wow what a head scratcher. But given that it’s > fixed it means that it’s not a short, but enough amps going through over > enough time to trip it. I wonder if a magnetic hydraulic vs thermal breaker > ( CBI vs CH etc) would have worked? > > Is that breaker box ever in the sun? Is there any Correlation between > high ambient temperatures and tripping? > > It sure would keep me up at night too > > Jay > > > On Aug 27, 2020, at 4:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >  > So the resolution to this is in... But I still have no idea what was > wrong. > > The string of 10 offending microinverters was split into 5 and 5. We had a > spare breaker in the IQ Combiner so it was relatively easy to run another > branch circuit. It has been over two months with no recurrence. So the > issue seems to be resolved, but again, no idea why. > > So here we go again... On another system we have a similar problem now. In > this case it is supply side interconnected with a fusible disconnect. The > same fuse (same line) keeps blowing every few to several weeks. We can't > find any home run wiring issues or issues with terminator caps. There are > no apparent faults in the AC Combiner. We have no idea why this is > happening. But in this system, just the fuse blows, not one of the > individual branch circuit breakers. > > This is getting very frustrating. And this is way more serious because > fuses and service calls are expensive and I can't isolate the issue to one > branch circuit. I don't even know where to start. Leaving each circuit > disconnected for several weeks to prove a negative is an untenable > suggestion to make to a client. But I don't see any other good options. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 3:42 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Yes, we double-checked that. I have seen that happen before and it's one >> of my early diagnostic steps for something like this. >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:18 AM Mac Lewis wrote: >> >>> Hi Jason, >>> >>> Are you certain that the branch circuits aren't crisscrossed somewhere, >>> meaning that an L1 branch 1, isn't connected to an L2 branch 2? That could >>> explain two different breakers tripping. >>> >>> Good luck >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 1:07 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Undoubtedly, the termination caps are the second thing we check after >>>> the rooftop junction box(es). These are prone to installation errors, even >>>> when the right parts are used. And given the cost, I've thought very long >>>> and hard about abandoning them altogether and terminating strings in small >>>> j-boxes with watertight fittings. But in this case, there was no evidence >>>> of improper installation (we replaced them) and it was not correlated to >>>> rain events. >>>> >>>> We are well equipped with bare Q-cable and field wireables that we >>>> could use for troubleshooting to bypass certain sections, but the >>>> intermittent nature of the problem and unpredictable timeframe between >>>> faults is very frustrating. While this is a rare occurrence, it is >>>> definitely a "con" to consider when comparing string vs. microinverters >>>> that I had not strongly considered in the past. I'm intent on getting to >>>> the bottom of this in order to learn what to look for in the future and how >>>> to approach diagnoses of Enphase branch circuit faults. >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 2:31 PM Amos Post >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I was just at a site last week where the Enphase branch circuit >>>>> breaker, outside utility disconnect breaker, and feed breaker in the main >>>>> panel all tripped simultaneously, and it happened about 1 hour before I >>>>> showed up onsite. The customer said it had happened 1 other time last fall >>>>> but that time it was just the 1 branch circuit in the Enphase combiner >>>>> panel. Interestingly the customer mentioned that he had just washed off >>>>> the panels, also about 1 hour before I got there. I went on the roof and >>>>> found that the installing contractor had not put on the Enphase termination >>>>> caps. 1 string was wire-nutted with regular wire nuts and sitting on the >>>>> roof, and the roof was damp right there. This was a fairly flat roof. The >>>>> other micro trunk cable was just cut with no protection at all, tied to the >>>>> rail… >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Amos Post >>>>> Integrity Energy >>>>> W 802.763.7023 >>>>> C 802.291.2188 >>>>> ienergyVT.com >>>>> >>>>> Facebook >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 2:05 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The breaker in the main panel IS tripping simultaneously with one of >>>>> the branch circuit breakers each time. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 12:43 PM Jay wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> A question that keeps nagging me is why do these breakers trip and >>>>>> not the breaker in the main panel? >>>>>> Presuming there is a 40 amp in the main >>>>>> >>>>>> I would have thought that given all the times the breakers have >>>>>> tripped at some point that one would have tripped and I can’t understand >>>>>> why not? >>>>>> >>>>>> Jay >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jerry Shafer >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>  >>>>>> Wrenches >>>>>> Looking g at the bigger breaker tripping at the same time is very >>>>>> likely do to response time of the breaker nothing more. As l suggested in a >>>>>> previous message. Use a non bridged breaker to see if it is one or both >>>>>> legs that trip. Also an eguage will help to see what if anything leads up >>>>>> to the failure and when. >>>>>> Jerry >>>>>> Jerry >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 7:58 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I wonder about that. Of course, it could be the "inverter output >>>>>>> circuit" having a fault in the wiring still (an intermittent issue >>>>>>> somewhere within the IQ cable or home run wiring). But internal to the >>>>>>> microinverter, is it possible that a fault could still occur at night? I >>>>>>> had a suggestion from another wrench that there are film capacitors on the >>>>>>> AC output side, but are these isolated when there is no DC input? It seems >>>>>>> unlikely that this would be an issue, but I have seen microinverters >>>>>>> reporting a couple of watts at night (in Enlighten). I'm not sure how real >>>>>>> that is. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The overriding question I have is what kind of fault would cause >>>>>>> BOTH a branch circuit and the main solar breaker to trip simultaneously? >>>>>>> That seems odd to me. If any normal load branch circuit has a fault, you >>>>>>> don't often see premises main breakers tripping, or even feeder circuit >>>>>>> breakers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I got to thinking that maybe there is some kind of issue between the >>>>>>> BR220 and CH240 breakers not playing nicely together. But I would think >>>>>>> this would be a well-known issue because I'm sure there are tons of CH >>>>>>> feeder breakers in the wild with BR branch circuits downstream. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 9:25 AM >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If it trips at night, we know it is not the output from the >>>>>>>> inverters causing the tripping. The current must be coming from the grid. >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 2020-06-01 12:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It's not weather. It's at all times of the day and night, and I >>>>>>>> confirmed that there is no correlation to rain or high winds. That was my >>>>>>>> first suspicion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:27 AM Ray wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is it at all weather related? Rain, or high humidity? High >>>>>>>> temperatures? Do you have any indication what time of day it trips off at? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit >>>>>>>> breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker >>>>>>>> they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks >>>>>>>> and then trip again. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole >>>>>>>> system apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel >>>>>>>> that I need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive >>>>>>>> proposition. I really don't know what else to do at this point. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we >>>>>>>> will see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I >>>>>>>> have two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined >>>>>>>> breaker. I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping >>>>>>>> simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have >>>>>>>> never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen >>>>>>>> many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would >>>>>>>> be replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and >>>>>>>> max string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the >>>>>>>> string's associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped >>>>>>>> again. We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the >>>>>>>> breaker was less than perfect from the start as we've add equally nice days >>>>>>>> since. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 >>>>>>>> watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra >>>>>>>> careful going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max >>>>>>>> published... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My story. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Scot >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>>>>>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>>>>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and >>>>>>>> Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters >>>>>>>> each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers >>>>>>>> and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been >>>>>>>> tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 >>>>>>>> months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >>>>>>>> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, >>>>>>>> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a >>>>>>>> different branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped >>>>>>>> simultaneously. We checked that branch circuit and could not find any >>>>>>>> fault. It seems unlikely that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, >>>>>>>> so we have now switched out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the >>>>>>>> culprit. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers >>>>>>>> crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another >>>>>>>> diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One >>>>>>>> thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible >>>>>>>> disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line >>>>>>>> fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if >>>>>>>> there is in fact a fault. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase >>>>>>>> systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned >>>>>>>> out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on >>>>>>>> different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault >>>>>>>> which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out >>>>>>>> of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This >>>>>>>> case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Mon Aug 31 01:15:02 2020 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 23:15:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Modifying a plumbing vent Message-ID: Hi, William Miller & the Wrenches~ This product line may be of interest to the thread: https://solarroofjack.com/ & the article linked below references 2016 revisions in the IAPMO standards & the IBC to address "diverting vent terminals". https://solarbuildermag.com/products/details-on-a-code-change-that-allows-for-solar-panels-above-plumbing-vent-pipes/ Please note this solution seems specific to ABS vent materials with no mention of PVC. The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at sesre.com Mon Aug 31 09:40:13 2020 From: matt at sesre.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 13:40:13 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Modifying a plumbing vent In-Reply-To: <2225D1DE8B1FA5EA.8767b596-fdcc-422e-ba67-6c578fc5f431@mail.outlook.com> References: <8e86aabde9313212355965bf6c2f94a5@mail.gmail.com> <2225D1DE8B1FA5EA.8767b596-fdcc-422e-ba67-6c578fc5f431@mail.outlook.com> Message-ID: Scot, What do you interpret the last part of that section to mean? ‘The placement of a panel over a vent pipe… shall provide for an open area for the vent pipe to the outdoors that is not less than the area of the pipe…’ Is that saying if you have 2” PVC you need your panel 2” above the top of the pipe? Thanks for bringing this up. Matt Matt Partymiller General Manager Solar Energy Solutions, LLC 877-312-7456 matt at sesre.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Scot Arey Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2020 11:38 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Modifying a plumbing vent Complete game changer. I stumbled upon it in Fine Homebuilding article and was surprised this was not more widely known. Vent pipes can be reduced in height. Details in plumbing section. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.iccsafe.org/wp-content/uploads/2018-IRC-UPDATE-Handout-9-1-17.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiGv-zC_cHrAhVIeawKHcMWDqsQFjAMegQIARAC&usg=AOvVaw36RmseBH_BsTWca5GZc6jd Howard "Scot" Arey owner, Solar CenTex 254 300 1228 On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 6:07 PM -0500, "Jerry Shafer" > wrote: I have relocated roof vents several times, just have to make sure they comply, no P traps, flat or downward trends. Fasten correctly to the rafters, sealing both old and new. If you want to do this on the roof under the modules same rules apply. Jerry On Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 3:17 PM William Miller > wrote: Friends: Over all these years I have always been able to work around plumbing vents. Now I find one that is just in the way. My foreman suggests we 90 it out of the way, and makes the point that there are vent 90s in the walls all the time. Is there any concern about this practice? Thanks in advance. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Aug 31 10:01:20 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 07:01:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Modifying a plumbing vent In-Reply-To: References: <8e86aabde9313212355965bf6c2f94a5@mail.gmail.com> <2225D1DE8B1FA5EA.8767b596-fdcc-422e-ba67-6c578fc5f431@mail.outlook.com> Message-ID: So the panel has to be removed for a plumber to run a snake to fix a plumbing issue? Yes thanks for bringing this up! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 31 Aug 2020 13:40:13 +0000, Matt Partymiller wrote: Scot, What do you interpret the last part of that section to mean? 'The placement of a panel over a vent pipe... shall provide for an open area for the vent pipe to the outdoors that is not less than the area of the pipe...' Is that saying if you have 2" PVC you need your panel 2" above the top of the pipe? Thanks for bringing this up. Matt Matt Partymiller General Manager Solar Energy Solutions, LLC 877-312-7456 matt at sesre.com FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Scot Arey SENT: Saturday, August 29, 2020 11:38 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Modifying a plumbing vent Complete game changer. I stumbled upon it in Fine Homebuilding article and was surprised this was not more widely known. Vent pipes can be reduced in height. Details in plumbing section. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.iccsafe.org/wp-content/uploads/2018-IRC-UPDATE-Handout-9-1-17.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiGv-zC_cHrAhVIeawKHcMWDqsQFjAMegQIARAC border-left: solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;"> I have relocated roof vents several times, just have to make sure they comply, no P traps, flat or downward trends. Fasten correctly to the rafters, sealing both old and new. If you want to do this on the roof under the modules same rules apply. Jerry On Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 3:17 PM William Miller wrote: Friends: Over all these years I have always been able to work around plumbing vents. Now I find one that is just in the way. My foreman suggests we 90 it out of the way, and makes the point that there are vent 90s in the walls all the time. Is there any concern about this practice? Thanks in advance. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com [6] CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.iccsafe.org/wp-content/uploads/2018-IRC-UPDATE-Handout-9-1-17.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiGv-zC_cHrAhVIeawKHcMWDqsQFjAMegQIARAC&usg=AOvVaw36RmseBH_BsTWca5GZc6jd [4] mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com [5] mailto:william at millersolar.com [6] http://www.millersolar.com/ [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Mon Aug 31 09:47:57 2020 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 08:47:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Modifying a plumbing vent In-Reply-To: References: <8e86aabde9313212355965bf6c2f94a5@mail.gmail.com> <2225D1DE8B1FA5EA.8767b596-fdcc-422e-ba67-6c578fc5f431@mail.outlook.com> Message-ID: <01ae01d67f9d$55c7d180$01577480$@solarcentex.com> No doubt worded horribly and we have not been “tested” by AHJs. We see it as providing ample volume for air to flow uninterrupted and we use about an inch to two. Our Unirac rails enables and here in Texas we like to have modules as far off roof as possible for air flow / heat reduction. Part of my problem is that not many AHJs have transitioned to this code version and as is typical, they see no upside (to them) to letting me use what is coming into effect. About to go speak to one inspector right now to ask permission to use code going into effect. Scot From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Matt Partymiller Sent: Monday, August 31, 2020 8:40 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Modifying a plumbing vent Scot, What do you interpret the last part of that section to mean? ‘The placement of a panel over a vent pipe… shall provide for an open area for the vent pipe to the outdoors that is not less than the area of the pipe…’ Is that saying if you have 2” PVC you need your panel 2” above the top of the pipe? Thanks for bringing this up. Matt Matt Partymiller General Manager Solar Energy Solutions, LLC 877-312-7456 matt at sesre.com From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Scot Arey Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2020 11:38 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Modifying a plumbing vent Complete game changer. I stumbled upon it in Fine Homebuilding article and was surprised this was not more widely known. Vent pipes can be reduced in height. Details in plumbing section. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t &source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.iccsafe.org/wp-content/uploads/2018-IRC-UPDATE-Handout-9-1-17.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiGv-zC_cHrAhVIeawKHcMWDqsQFjAMegQIARAC&usg=AOvVaw36RmseBH_BsTWca5GZc6jd Howard "Scot" Arey owner, Solar CenTex 254 300 1228 On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 6:07 PM -0500, "Jerry Shafer" > wrote: I have relocated roof vents several times, just have to make sure they comply, no P traps, flat or downward trends. Fasten correctly to the rafters, sealing both old and new. If you want to do this on the roof under the modules same rules apply. Jerry On Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 3:17 PM William Miller > wrote: Friends: Over all these years I have always been able to work around plumbing vents. Now I find one that is just in the way. My foreman suggests we 90 it out of the way, and makes the point that there are vent 90s in the walls all the time. Is there any concern about this practice? Thanks in advance. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Mon Aug 31 10:29:54 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 07:29:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Modifying a plumbing vent In-Reply-To: References: <8e86aabde9313212355965bf6c2f94a5@mail.gmail.com> <2225D1DE8B1FA5EA.8767b596-fdcc-422e-ba67-6c578fc5f431@mail.outlook.com> Message-ID: <0ee54dc1-6f67-9805-702d-4bf7ebd93742@coveoregon.com> To get the open area equivalent of a 2" vent pipe would only require the bottom of the panel to be 1/2" above the top of the vent pipe. However, for folks in a cold climate, condensation freezing into a large ice block on the bottom of the panel could block the vent or damage the panel. Pretty sure vent pipes under the array are not a good idea for many of us. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar 70177 Ponderosa Ln. Cove, OR 97824 www.bluemountainsolar.com On 8/31/2020 6:40 AM, Matt Partymiller wrote: > > Scot, > > What do you interpret the last part of that section to mean? ‘The > placement of a panel over a vent pipe… shall provide for an open area > for the vent pipe to the outdoors that is not less than the area of > the pipe…’ > > Is that saying if you have 2” PVC you need your panel 2” above the top > of the pipe? > > Thanks for bringing this up. > > Matt > > Matt Partymiller > > General Manager > > Solar Energy Solutions, LLC > > 877-312-7456 > > matt at sesre.com > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Scot Arey > *Sent:* Saturday, August 29, 2020 11:38 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Modifying a plumbing vent > > Complete game changer. I stumbled upon it in Fine Homebuilding article > and was surprised this was not more widely known. Vent pipes can be > reduced in height. Details in plumbing section. > > https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.iccsafe.org/wp-content/uploads/2018-IRC-UPDATE-Handout-9-1-17.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiGv-zC_cHrAhVIeawKHcMWDqsQFjAMegQIARAC&usg=AOvVaw36RmseBH_BsTWca5GZc6jd > > Howard "Scot" Arey > > owner, Solar CenTex > > 254 300 1228 > > > > On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 6:07 PM -0500, "Jerry Shafer" > > wrote: > > I have relocated roof vents several times, just have to make sure > they comply, no P traps, flat or downward trends. Fasten correctly > to the rafters, sealing both old and new. If you want to do this > on the roof under the modules same rules apply. > > Jerry > > On Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 3:17 PM William Miller > > wrote: > > Friends: > > Over all these years I have always been able to work around > plumbing vents.  Now I find one that is just in the way.  My > foreman suggests we 90 it out of the way, and makes the point > that there are vent 90s in the walls all the time.  Is there > any concern about this practice? > > Thanks in advance. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Ken at commonwealthsolar.com Mon Aug 31 11:16:59 2020 From: Ken at commonwealthsolar.com (Ken Schaal) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 11:16:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Modifying a plumbing vent In-Reply-To: References: <8e86aabde9313212355965bf6c2f94a5@mail.gmail.com> <2225D1DE8B1FA5EA.8767b596-fdcc-422e-ba67-6c578fc5f431@mail.outlook.com> Message-ID: I would think that there is a clean out closer to the lines that actually flow water and other solids. The only time i have ever needed to ram a snake from a roof vent was on a 100 year old apartment house with galvanized sink plumbing. Some rust from inside the vent apparently flaked off and blocked the drain below the 3 rd fl sink! Anyone seen a blockage in the vent only? Ken Schaal Common Wealth Solar On Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 10:01 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > So the panel has to be removed for a plumber to run a snake to fix a > plumbing issue? Yes thanks for bringing this up! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Mon, 31 Aug 2020 13:40:13 +0000, Matt Partymiller > wrote: > > Scot, > > > > What do you interpret the last part of that section to mean? 'The > placement of a panel over a vent pipe... shall provide for an open area for > the vent pipe to the outdoors that is not less than the area of the pipe...' > > > > Is that saying if you have 2" PVC you need your panel 2" above the top of > the pipe? > > > > Thanks for bringing this up. > > > > Matt > > > > > > Matt Partymiller > > General Manager > > Solar Energy Solutions, LLC > > 877-312-7456 > > matt at sesre.com > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Scot Arey > *Sent:* Saturday, August 29, 2020 11:38 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Modifying a plumbing vent > > > > Complete game changer. I stumbled upon it in Fine Homebuilding article and > was surprised this was not more widely known. Vent pipes can be reduced in > height. Details in plumbing section. > > > https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.iccsafe.org/wp-content/uploads/2018-IRC-UPDATE-Handout-9-1-17.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiGv-zC_cHrAhVIeawKHcMWDqsQFjAMegQIARAC&usg=AOvVaw36RmseBH_BsTWca5GZc6jd > > Howard "Scot" Arey > > owner, Solar CenTex > > 254 300 1228 > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 6:07 PM -0500, "Jerry Shafer" < > jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com> wrote: > > I have relocated roof vents several times, just have to make sure they > comply, no P traps, flat or downward trends. Fasten correctly to the > rafters, sealing both old and new. If you want to do this on the roof under > the modules same rules apply. > > Jerry > > > > On Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 3:17 PM William Miller > wrote: > > Friends: > > > > Over all these years I have always been able to work around plumbing > vents. Now I find one that is just in the way. My foreman suggests we 90 > it out of the way, and makes the point that there are vent 90s in the walls > all the time. Is there any concern about this practice? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William > > > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 15:53:58 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 15:53:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Re-mounting a legacy Grid-tied system, after re-roofing Message-ID: Hi All, I think I know the answer to this, but wasn't 100% sure: I have a potential client who had roof mounted grid-tied panels (Sun Power 205s, and Sun Power Inverter) and a Sunny Island for backup (batteries are currently flat, so don't know if either they are recoverable or if the SI is working). Before the current owner moved in a few months ago, the panels and racking were removed (maybe a year ago), seemingly for a reroofing. No pictures appear to exist of how or where they were mounted and I believe the racking has disappeared (I have not been to this location, just have info from the current owner and a report commissioned by the owner from a somewhat knowledgeable energy consultant). The owner wants the panels remounted and the SI restored to operation. My question is can I reuse the existing equipment (no RSD) as this appears to be a maintenance procedure, or do I need to bring the system up to current code? No permits will need to be pulled and there are essentially nor AHJs involved (this is a rural site), so any adherence to code would be for covering my a-- and making sure things were safe. So can I, by code, remount this system (with new racking) somewhere on the same roof, without changing out the inverter? I realize this might have a variable answer, but looking for the basic. Thanks, Howie *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Aug 31 16:12:58 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 13:12:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Re-mounting a legacy Grid-tied system, after re-roofing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Howie, There is definitely some grey area involved in your situation - and, you are not alone in facing this type of situation. As systems age, we're finding removal and replacements becoming very common. Many companies don't want to do this type of work because it almost always opens up a can of worms. On the conservative side, it's always safest to get a permit. We've been getting removal and replacement maintenance permits in the SF Bay Area with fairly good results. We let the AHJ know that this is simply a removal and replacement for re-roofing purposes, so we're building the system again to the same code it was built to. Fire walkways are a big deal in our neck of the woods, and older systems don't tend to meet current standards. Then, there is rapid shutdown, smart inverters, arc fault detection, etc that make it nearly impossible to rebuild the system with the old equipment while meeting current codes and interconnection requirements. Your old SunPower positively grounded modules will only work with old isolated transformer based inverters that don't meet current code. But to answer your question, yes, I think it is perfectly fine to rebuild the system the way it originally was with the same inverter and your AHJ should too as long as they understand it is for maintenance. We're not taking on rebuilding systems that were installed by others currently because we already have too much work and as I mentioned above, it always ends up being complicated and taking more time than just building a new system from scratch. As soon as the system becomes modified because there is now a skylight on the roof, they want to add some modules, etc, then really you're building a new system with old modules and it should meet current code. August On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 12:54 PM Howie Michaelson < Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: > Hi All, > I think I know the answer to this, but wasn't 100% sure: > > I have a potential client who had roof mounted grid-tied panels (Sun Power > 205s, and Sun Power Inverter) and a Sunny Island for backup (batteries are > currently flat, so don't know if either they are recoverable or if the SI > is working). > > Before the current owner moved in a few months ago, the panels and racking > were removed (maybe a year ago), seemingly for a reroofing. No pictures > appear to exist of how or where they were mounted and I believe the racking > has disappeared (I have not been to this location, just have info from the > current owner and a report commissioned by the owner from a somewhat > knowledgeable energy consultant). The owner wants the panels remounted and > the SI restored to operation. > > My question is can I reuse the existing equipment (no RSD) as this appears > to be a maintenance procedure, or do I need to bring the system up to > current code? No permits will need to be pulled and there are essentially > nor AHJs involved (this is a rural site), so any adherence to code would be > for covering my a-- and making sure things were safe. So can I, by code, > remount this system (with new racking) somewhere on the same roof, without > changing out the inverter? > > I realize this might have a variable answer, but looking for the basic. > > Thanks, > Howie > > *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* > > *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* > > *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Aug 31 16:24:42 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 16:24:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Re-mounting a legacy Grid-tied system, after re-roofing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It depends on the jurisdiction here in Southwest Florida, but virtually all of them expect the system to meet current codes for the most part for things you touch. Since the mounts/attachments are removed, it's definitely a new structural inspection and most jurisdictions at least want to look at grounding/bonding. The most we can get away with here usually is avoiding an electrical plan review, and sometimes an electrical inspection altogether. They do mostly allow grandfathered inverter equipment, even if RSD is not provided. One of by bigger headaches has been MC3 connectors on modules. I don't like touching these systems without bringing them up to code with a whole new engineered set of permit drawings. I have a lot of removal/reinstall experience here (thanks, Hurricane Irma). It's more trouble than it's worth to try to use old tech. The insurance company should be willing to update the system to new codes if the insured is covered for that, and that's what we saw on a pretty consistent basis. I even replaced panels on the insurer's dime on some Sharp trapezoidal arrays because I couldn't make the existing mounting systems work to get them back on the roof, and they have a proprietary and discontinued rail system. Some clients were happy to upgrade to microinverters at the same time, also. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 4:13 PM August Goers wrote: > Hi Howie, > > There is definitely some grey area involved in your situation - and, you > are not alone in facing this type of situation. As systems age, we're > finding removal and replacements becoming very common. Many companies don't > want to do this type of work because it almost always opens up a can of > worms. On the conservative side, it's always safest to get a permit. We've > been getting removal and replacement maintenance permits in the SF Bay Area > with fairly good results. We let the AHJ know that this is simply a removal > and replacement for re-roofing purposes, so we're building the system again > to the same code it was built to. Fire walkways are a big deal in our neck > of the woods, and older systems don't tend to meet current standards. Then, > there is rapid shutdown, smart inverters, arc fault detection, etc that > make it nearly impossible to rebuild the system with the old equipment > while meeting current codes and interconnection requirements. Your old > SunPower positively grounded modules will only work with old isolated > transformer based inverters that don't meet current code. > > But to answer your question, yes, I think it is perfectly fine to rebuild > the system the way it originally was with the same inverter and your AHJ > should too as long as they understand it is for maintenance. We're not > taking on rebuilding systems that were installed by others currently > because we already have too much work and as I mentioned above, it always > ends up being complicated and taking more time than just building a new > system from scratch. As soon as the system becomes modified because there > is now a skylight on the roof, they want to add some modules, etc, then > really you're building a new system with old modules and it should meet > current code. > > August > > > > > On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 12:54 PM Howie Michaelson < > Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> I think I know the answer to this, but wasn't 100% sure: >> >> I have a potential client who had roof mounted grid-tied panels (Sun >> Power 205s, and Sun Power Inverter) and a Sunny Island for backup >> (batteries are currently flat, so don't know if either they are recoverable >> or if the SI is working). >> >> Before the current owner moved in a few months ago, the panels and >> racking were removed (maybe a year ago), seemingly for a reroofing. No >> pictures appear to exist of how or where they were mounted and I believe >> the racking has disappeared (I have not been to this location, just have >> info from the current owner and a report commissioned by the owner from a >> somewhat knowledgeable energy consultant). The owner wants the panels >> remounted and the SI restored to operation. >> >> My question is can I reuse the existing equipment (no RSD) as this >> appears to be a maintenance procedure, or do I need to bring the system up >> to current code? No permits will need to be pulled and there are >> essentially nor AHJs involved (this is a rural site), so any adherence to >> code would be for covering my a-- and making sure things were safe. So can >> I, by code, remount this system (with new racking) somewhere on the same >> roof, without changing out the inverter? >> >> I realize this might have a variable answer, but looking for the basic. >> >> Thanks, >> Howie >> >> *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* >> >> *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* >> >> *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cadams at sunrocksolar.com Mon Aug 31 21:37:12 2020 From: cadams at sunrocksolar.com (Carl Adams) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 21:37:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge optimizer attachment using EcoFoot 2 mounting Message-ID: I have a project requiring the Solar Edge optimizers (P370 or P860) on an Ecofoot 2 mounting system with 72 cell modules. Curious as to what is being done to mount the optimizers to either the module frame or the Ecofoot 2 base. A picture could be worth a thousand words. With Kind Regards Carl Adams, President SunRock Solar, LLC 513.290.9072 (mobile) 513.766.6025 (office) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Mon Aug 31 21:53:32 2020 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 18:53:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge optimizer attachment using EcoFoot 2 mounting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have similar curiosity but using Tigo. We also would like to use APS QS1 micro-inverters and the MLPE mounts that Ecolibrium has don't really fit the bill. Eric Smiley, P.Eng. Project Manager, North Island E: eric at vecoop.ca T: 1-888-386-0116 ext 702 (toll free) C: 250-703-6004 W: viridianenergy.ca RENEWABLE POWER NOW On Mon, 31 Aug 2020 at 18:37, Carl Adams wrote: > I have a project requiring the Solar Edge optimizers (P370 or P860) on an > Ecofoot 2 mounting system with 72 cell modules. Curious as to what is > being done to mount the optimizers to either the module frame or the > Ecofoot 2 base. A picture could be worth a thousand words. > > With Kind Regards > Carl Adams, President > SunRock Solar, LLC > 513.290.9072 (mobile) > 513.766.6025 (office) > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 21:57:47 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 21:57:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge optimizer attachment using EcoFoot 2 mounting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Carl, Quick Mount makes a user friendly attachment. https://youtu.be/o1ofabaptPY Hope this helps -Chris On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 9:53 PM Eric Smiley wrote: > We have similar curiosity but using Tigo. We also would like to use APS > QS1 micro-inverters and the MLPE mounts that Ecolibrium has don't really > fit the bill. > > Eric Smiley, P.Eng. > > Project Manager, North Island > > E: eric at vecoop.ca > > T: 1-888-386-0116 ext 702 (toll free) > > C: 250-703-6004 > > W: viridianenergy.ca > > > > RENEWABLE POWER NOW > > > On Mon, 31 Aug 2020 at 18:37, Carl Adams wrote: > >> I have a project requiring the Solar Edge optimizers (P370 or P860) on an >> Ecofoot 2 mounting system with 72 cell modules. Curious as to what is >> being done to mount the optimizers to either the module frame or the >> Ecofoot 2 base. A picture could be worth a thousand words. >> >> With Kind Regards >> Carl Adams, President >> SunRock Solar, LLC >> 513.290.9072 (mobile) >> 513.766.6025 (office) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Wed Sep 2 21:54:33 2020 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 20:54:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable Tray Marking Message-ID: Wrenches, I am curious about the marking requirements for cable trays containing PV source/output circuits rated over 600 volts, installed on a building: NEC 392.18(H) requires a permanent, legible warning notice carrying the wording “DANGER — HIGH VOLTAGE — KEEP AWAY” at least once every 10 ft. NEC 690.31(G)(3) requires a label or marking with the wording "WARNING: PHOTOVOLTAIC POWER SOURCE" at least once every 10 ft. Does the 690.31 label take precedence? Are there any situations where both labels would be required (or recommended)? -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Sep 3 00:36:22 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 22:36:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable Tray Marking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <857f3970-a419-4e34-0f7b-072bf3e3c3fe@solarray.com> This is interesting, because we were considering cable trays, too.  My guess is that both requirements would apply.  Picky, but I don't see that 690 exempts the requirements of 392. One is for PV, one is for over 600 v.  Some code iteration in the future might have combined language for PV over 600 v " Danger - High Voltage Photovoltaic Source - Keep Away"  and of course that's so verbose that the average Joe is just going to stick his paws in there anyway..... Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/2/20 7:54 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > Wrenches, > > I am curious about the marking requirements for cable trays containing > PV source/output circuits rated over 600 volts, installed on a building: > > > NEC 392.18(H) requires a permanent, legible warning notice > carrying the wording “DANGER — HIGH VOLTAGE — KEEP AWAY” at least > once every 10 ft. > > NEC 690.31(G)(3) requires a label or marking with the wording > "WARNING: PHOTOVOLTAIC POWER SOURCE" at least once every 10 ft. > > Does the 690.31 label take precedence? Are there any situations where > both labels would be required (or recommended)? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Thu Sep 3 08:53:37 2020 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 08:53:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable Tray Marking In-Reply-To: <857f3970-a419-4e34-0f7b-072bf3e3c3fe@solarray.com> References: <857f3970-a419-4e34-0f7b-072bf3e3c3fe@solarray.com> Message-ID: This is interesting, since the definition of high voltage was changed to >1000V a few code cycles ago and it is somewhat consistently applied throughout the NEC at that voltage (except for workspace clearances...er). It seems this 392.18 label requirement could cause confusion and should be changed to apply to >1000V circuits. However, the definition of high voltage only applies with Article 490 , Equipment >1000V so the Article 392 Cable Tray folks can do what they want in terms of where they require high voltage labeling. I haven't done any research on the history of this labeling requirement. Corey maybe you would be willing to make a public input to change where the label is required to >1000V circuits, thus there would be no conflict with 690 since PV DC circuits in or on buildings cannot be >1000V. Due Sept 10! 490.2 Definition. The definition in this section shall apply only within this article. High Voltage. A potential difference of more than 1000 volts, nominal. Thanks for bringing this up Corey! On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 12:36 AM Ray wrote: > This is interesting, because we were considering cable trays, too. My > guess is that both requirements would apply. Picky, but I don't see that > 690 exempts the requirements of 392. One is for PV, one is for over 600 v. > Some code iteration in the future might have combined language for PV over > 600 v " Danger - High Voltage Photovoltaic Source - Keep Away" and of > course that's so verbose that the average Joe is just going to stick his > paws in there anyway..... > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 9/2/20 7:54 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I am curious about the marking requirements for cable trays containing PV > source/output circuits rated over 600 volts, installed on a building: > > > NEC 392.18(H) requires a permanent, legible warning notice carrying the > wording “DANGER — HIGH VOLTAGE — KEEP AWAY” at least once every 10 ft. > > NEC 690.31(G)(3) requires a label or marking with the wording "WARNING: > PHOTOVOLTAIC POWER SOURCE" at least once every 10 ft. > > Does the 690.31 label take precedence? Are there any situations where both > labels would be required (or recommended)? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From findsolar at herzfeld.org Thu Sep 3 15:22:27 2020 From: findsolar at herzfeld.org (Martin Herzfeld) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 12:22:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable Tray Marking In-Reply-To: References: <857f3970-a419-4e34-0f7b-072bf3e3c3fe@solarray.com> Message-ID: 1. In addition, there's a conflict of signal words for NEC 110.21(B) Field-Applied Hazard Markings."Where caution, warning, or danger signs or labels are required by this Code, the labels shall meet the following requirements ..." In other words, one signal word is DANGER and the other signal word is WARNING. Simply, DANGER *will* result in ... and WARNING *could* result in ... 2. Specifically, in NEC 2020 690.31(D)(2) the signal word of WARNING" was *removed* and does not now appear to conflict? In California, 2017 NEC/2019 CEC 690.31(G)(3) still has the WARNING signal word. By the way, NEC 392.18(H) refers to 110.21(B). BTW, more information ANSI Z535 is found here: https://webstore.ansi.org/standards/nema/ansiz5352011r2017-1668874 All the best, Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037 Contract Training Provider (CTP) Adjunct Professor, Energy - Since 2016 California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, D56, D31, C-7 - Since 2004 Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors #7035507 - Since 2006 * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training Provider On Thu, Sep 3, 2020, 5:53 AM Rebekah Hren wrote: > This is interesting, since the definition of high voltage was changed to > >1000V a few code cycles ago and it is somewhat consistently applied > throughout the NEC at that voltage (except for workspace clearances...er). > It seems this 392.18 label requirement could cause confusion and should be > changed to apply to >1000V circuits. However, the definition of high > voltage only applies with Article 490 , Equipment >1000V so the Article 392 > Cable Tray folks can do what they want in terms of where they require high > voltage labeling. I haven't done any research on the history of this > labeling requirement. > > > Corey maybe you would be willing to make a public input to change where > the label is required to >1000V circuits, thus there would be no > conflict with 690 since PV DC circuits in or on buildings cannot be >1000V. > Due Sept 10! > > 490.2 Definition. > > The definition in this section shall apply only within this article. > High Voltage. > > A potential difference of more than 1000 volts, nominal. > > Thanks for bringing this up Corey! > > > On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 12:36 AM Ray wrote: > >> This is interesting, because we were considering cable trays, too. My >> guess is that both requirements would apply. Picky, but I don't see that >> 690 exempts the requirements of 392. One is for PV, one is for over 600 v. >> Some code iteration in the future might have combined language for PV over >> 600 v " Danger - High Voltage Photovoltaic Source - Keep Away" and of >> course that's so verbose that the average Joe is just going to stick his >> paws in there anyway..... >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 9/2/20 7:54 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: >> >> Wrenches, >> >> I am curious about the marking requirements for cable trays containing PV >> source/output circuits rated over 600 volts, installed on a building: >> >> >> NEC 392.18(H) requires a permanent, legible warning notice carrying the >> wording “DANGER — HIGH VOLTAGE — KEEP AWAY” at least once every 10 ft. >> >> NEC 690.31(G)(3) requires a label or marking with the wording "WARNING: >> PHOTOVOLTAIC POWER SOURCE" at least once every 10 ft. >> >> Does the 690.31 label take precedence? Are there any situations where >> both labels would be required (or recommended)? >> >> -- >> Corey Shalanski >> Jah Light Solar >> Portland, Jamaica >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cadams at sunrocksolar.com Fri Sep 4 13:38:48 2020 From: cadams at sunrocksolar.com (Carl Adams) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 13:38:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB Inverter replacement and RS485 question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I have an older system using an SMA SB 5000US-11 (picture attached) [image: image.png] The inverter has failed and I need to replace it. I was looking at using the SB 5.0-1SP-US-40. The system as installed has a WebBox and environmental sensors (pyronometer, anemometer, ambient and module temperature sensors.) picture attached. [image: image.png] Is there an RS485 module which I can use with this replacement inverter which would allow the environmental sensors to continue working with the replacement inverter. Perhaps this unit MD.485-US-40? With Kind Regards Carl Adams, President SunRock Solar, LLC 513.290.9072 (mobile) 513.766.6025 (office) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 427182 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 896235 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Sep 5 20:59:20 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2020 17:59:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB Inverter replacement and RS485 question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches You may be able to connect the inverter directly to SMA either wifi or hard line and pipe in the web box data all through the portal Jerry On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 10:39 AM Carl Adams wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > I have an older system using an SMA SB 5000US-11 (picture attached) > [image: image.png] > The inverter has failed and I need to replace it. I was looking at using > the SB 5.0-1SP-US-40. The system as installed has a WebBox and > environmental sensors (pyronometer, anemometer, ambient and module > temperature sensors.) > picture attached. > [image: image.png] > Is there an RS485 module which I can use with this replacement inverter > which would allow the environmental sensors to continue working with the > replacement inverter. > Perhaps this unit MD.485-US-40? > > With Kind Regards > Carl Adams, President > SunRock Solar, LLC > 513.290.9072 (mobile) > 513.766.6025 (office) > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 427182 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 896235 bytes Desc: not available URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Sun Sep 6 16:34:03 2020 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2020 15:34:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1500 Vdc Combiners/Disconnects Message-ID: Wrenches, I am curious if anyone can recommend a dc combiner and/or dc disconnect switch rated for 1500 V / 225 A? I am having particular difficulty sourcing an enclosed disconnect switch (or "isolating device" per NEC 2017). -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Sun Sep 6 18:17:30 2020 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2020 17:17:30 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge optimizer attachment using EcoFoot 2 mounting Message-ID: Hi Carl, A company that I recently began consulting for has several projects in their portfolio that match your description: Ecolibrium Solar EcoFoot2+ racking, 72-cell PV modules, SolarEdge P860 optimizers. They have used either the Ecolibrium Solar MLPE Bracket , which attaches to the EcoFoot base, or the Quick Mount PV Accessory Frame Bracket , which attaches to the module frame; another frame-mounted option would be the Unirac MLPE Mount . Please see attached photos (admittedly not great resolution) of P860 optimizers attached to the Ecolibrium brackets. One word of warning: When the modules are installed in landscape orientation, we realized it is difficult/impossible to manage the P860 output cables in a Code-compliant manner. This is due to the output cables being slightly short compared to the length of the module frames and generally results in insufficient bending radius of the cable where it attaches to the optimizer. SolarEdge does offer a P860 optimizer with longer output cables, but we are told they have a 20-week lead time. -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 9:37 PM Carl Adams wrote: > > I have a project requiring the Solar Edge optimizers (P370 or P860) on an > Ecofoot 2 mounting system with 72 cell modules. Curious as to what is > being done to mount the optimizers to either the module frame or the > Ecofoot 2 base. A picture could be worth a thousand words. > > With Kind Regards > Carl Adams, President > SunRock Solar, LLC > 513.290.9072 (mobile) > 513.766.6025 (office) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 3 - Wire Management.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 33399 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 60181 bytes Desc: not available URL: From emerkel15 at gmail.com Sun Sep 6 20:19:12 2020 From: emerkel15 at gmail.com (Evan M) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2020 20:19:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1500 Vdc Combiners/Disconnects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Corey, Have you tried Shoals for the disconnect? I think they call it the LBD ("load break disconnect"). They have combiners too, as do SolarBos and I *think* Bentek offers them at 1500v as well. Evan On Sun, Sep 6, 2020, 6:02 PM wrote: > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the > Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines > from the quoted message. > Today's Topics: > > 1. 1500 Vdc Combiners/Disconnects (Corey Shalanski) > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Corey Shalanski > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2020 15:34:03 -0500 > Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1500 Vdc Combiners/Disconnects > Wrenches, > > I am curious if anyone can recommend a dc combiner and/or dc disconnect > switch rated for 1500 V / 225 A? I am having particular difficulty sourcing > an enclosed disconnect switch (or "isolating device" per NEC 2017). > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Mon Sep 7 08:44:10 2020 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 08:44:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wire clips for Sunmodo rail Message-ID: All, I am installing a Sunmondo ground mount for for first time. They don't offer a wire clip to work on their rail. One which clips in the top channel and hangs off the side, that is. The top channel accommodates a 1/4-20 screw, but the rail is wider than any I've used before, thus i can't find a clip to span the channel to rail side and snap in. Looked at Heyco and Hellermantyton lines but no luck. Any ideas? Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 29th Anniversary 1991-2020 www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Mon Sep 7 12:55:18 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2020 09:55:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wire clips for Sunmodo rail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5366e4ed-bd66-34c0-caf9-a96544093777@coveoregon.com> Kirk, For the HR150 rail, Sunmodo has a channel clip, part A20252-001 or A20252-BK1 (black), that will hold the wires in the channel on the side of the rail. I don't see it in their recent catalog, but I have purchased them recently. For the heavier rails, which are probably being used on the ground mount, there is a cable clip designed to attach to the 3/8" bolt slot, part A20162-001, unfortunately it was sized for the older Enphase cable and isn't much use for anything else. Stainless cable ties ... Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar 70177 Ponderosa Ln. Cove, OR 97824 www.bluemountainsolar.com On 9/7/2020 5:44 AM, Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: > All, > I am installing a Sunmondo ground mount for for first time. They don't > offer a wire clip to work on their rail. One which clips in the top > channel and hangs off the side, that is. The top channel accommodates > a 1/4-20 screw, but the rail is wider than any I've used before, thus > i can't find a clip to span the channel to rail side and snap in. > Looked at Heyco and Hellermantyton lines but no luck. Any ideas? > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > */Celebrating our 29^th  Anniversary 1991-2020/* > > *www.vermont.solar* > ** > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Mon Sep 7 13:41:07 2020 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 13:41:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wire clips for Sunmodo rail In-Reply-To: <5366e4ed-bd66-34c0-caf9-a96544093777@coveoregon.com> References: <5366e4ed-bd66-34c0-caf9-a96544093777@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Unfortunately the HR300 rail which I'm using has no side channels, just 1/4" top and 3/8" bottom ones. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 29th Anniversary 1991-2020 www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 9/7/2020 12:55:30 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote: Kirk, For the HR150 rail, Sunmodo has a channel clip, part A20252-001 or A20252-BK1 (black), that will hold the wires in the channel on the side of the rail. I don't see it in their recent catalog, but I have purchased them recently. For the heavier rails, which are probably being used on the ground mount, there is a cable clip designed to attach to the 3/8" bolt slot, part A20162-001, unfortunately it was sized for the older Enphase cable and isn't much use for anything else. Stainless cable ties ... Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar 70177 Ponderosa Ln. Cove, OR 97824 www.bluemountainsolar.com [http://www.bluemountainsolar.com] On 9/7/2020 5:44 AM, Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: All, I am installing a Sunmondo ground mount for for first time. They don't offer a wire clip to work on their rail. One which clips in the top channel and hangs off the side, that is. The top channel accommodates a 1/4-20 screw, but the rail is wider than any I've used before, thus i can't find a clip to span the channel to rail side and snap in. Looked at Heyco and Hellermantyton lines but no luck. Any ideas? Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 29th Anniversary 1991-2020 www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Mon Sep 7 14:40:29 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2020 11:40:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wire clips for Sunmodo rail In-Reply-To: References: <5366e4ed-bd66-34c0-caf9-a96544093777@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: Kirk, I think you'll probably have to use a stainless cable tie going all the way around the rail. The hanger clips you inquired about would probably be a poor choice on the sloped rails anyway. Another possibility, admittedly most costly and labor intensive, is to use something similar to these vinyl cushioned cable clamps that could be held with 3/4" tee bolts. I believe that the tee bolts are Sunmodo part B20015-004, it's not a catalog item but you can order them. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar www.bluemountainsolar.com On 9/7/2020 10:41 AM, Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: > Thanks, > Unfortunately the HR300 rail which I'm using has no side channels, > just 1/4" top and 3/8" bottom ones. > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > */Celebrating our 29^th  Anniversary 1991-2020/* > > *www.vermont.solar* > ** > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > >> On 9/7/2020 12:55:30 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote: >> >> Kirk, >> >> For the HR150 rail, Sunmodo has a channel clip, part A20252-001 or >> A20252-BK1 (black), that will hold the wires in the channel on the >> side of the rail. I don't see it in their recent catalog, but I have >> purchased them recently. >> >> For the heavier rails, which are probably being used on the ground >> mount, there is a cable clip designed to attach to the 3/8" bolt >> slot, part A20162-001, unfortunately it was sized for the older >> Enphase cable and isn't much use for anything else. >> >> Stainless cable ties ... >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> 70177 Ponderosa Ln. >> Cove, OR 97824 >> www.bluemountainsolar.com >> >> On 9/7/2020 5:44 AM, Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: >>> All, >>> I am installing a Sunmondo ground mount for for first time. They >>> don't offer a wire clip to work on their rail. One which clips in >>> the top channel and hangs off the side, that is. The top channel >>> accommodates a 1/4-20 screw, but the rail is wider than any I've >>> used before, thus i can't find a clip to span the channel to rail >>> side and snap in. >>> Looked at Heyco and Hellermantyton lines but no luck. Any ideas? >>> >>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>> >>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>> >>> */Celebrating our 29^th  Anniversary 1991-2020/* >>> >>> *www.vermont.solar* >>> ** >>> >>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>> >>> 802.863.1202 >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Tue Sep 8 13:14:21 2020 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 17:14:21 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? Message-ID: Hey all, I'm designing a microgrid sized off-grid system for somebody, and I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any issues with the following designs... The client says he needs 70 kW. His load data looks pretty solid, so I'm sticking to using that number as a minimum, at least during the initial proposal stage. I only know of two possible equipment options for this size range... 1. I think I can use up to 10 Outback Radians, for up to an 80 kW system. Are there any bugs or problems with using this many inverters on one hub? I know I've read about issues with selling to the grid, but that's not an issue, this is off-grid. 2. I know that the SMA cluster box with sunny islands can allow for up to a 72 kW system. Do you know of any bugs or problems with this system? Are there any other options that anyone would suggest? Schneider's website says they can only do up to 61 kW, and Victron can only do up to 60 kW. I know that the Outback system would yield a 240/120 Split-Phase system and that the SMA would yield a 208/120 3Ø system, but this doesn't really matter either way for this job. Thanks so much, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Tue Sep 8 13:40:19 2020 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 13:40:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd suggest giving the crew at Sol-Ark a quick call @ 972-575-8875 with their 12kw unit. Not sure what their max number of inverters are. Christopher On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:14 PM Kienan Maxfield wrote: > Hey all, I'm designing a microgrid sized off-grid system for somebody, and > I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any issues with the following > designs... > > The client says he needs 70 kW. His load data looks pretty solid, so I'm > sticking to using that number as a minimum, at least during the initial > proposal stage. I only know of two possible equipment options for this size > range... > > > 1. I think I can use up to 10 Outback Radians, for up to an 80 kW > system. Are there any bugs or problems with using this many inverters on > one hub? I know I've read about issues with selling to the grid, but that's > not an issue, this is off-grid. > > 2. I know that the SMA cluster box with sunny islands can allow for up > to a 72 kW system. Do you know of any bugs or problems with this system? > > > > Are there any other options that anyone would suggest? Schneider's website > says they can only do up to 61 kW, and Victron can only do up to 60 kW. > > > I know that the Outback system would yield a 240/120 Split-Phase system > and that the SMA would yield a 208/120 3Ø system, but this doesn't really > matter either way for this job. > > Thanks so much, > Kienan > > > *Maxfield Solar* > *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* > * (801) 631-5584 (Cell) * > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bryan at pv-cables.com Tue Sep 8 13:50:27 2020 From: Bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 10:50:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <021901d68608$89caadb0$9d600910$@pv-cables.com> Sol-Arks would be possible, you can link 8 inverters. Bryan PV-Cables From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 10:40 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? I'd suggest giving the crew at Sol-Ark a quick call @ 972-575-8875 with their 12kw unit. Not sure what their max number of inverters are. Christopher On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:14 PM Kienan Maxfield wrote: Hey all, I'm designing a microgrid sized off-grid system for somebody, and I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any issues with the following designs... The client says he needs 70 kW. His load data looks pretty solid, so I'm sticking to using that number as a minimum, at least during the initial proposal stage. I only know of two possible equipment options for this size range... 1. I think I can use up to 10 Outback Radians, for up to an 80 kW system. Are there any bugs or problems with using this many inverters on one hub? I know I've read about issues with selling to the grid, but that's not an issue, this is off-grid. 2. I know that the SMA cluster box with sunny islands can allow for up to a 72 kW system. Do you know of any bugs or problems with this system? Are there any other options that anyone would suggest? Schneider's website says they can only do up to 61 kW, and Victron can only do up to 60 kW. I know that the Outback system would yield a 240/120 Split-Phase system and that the SMA would yield a 208/120 3Ø system, but this doesn't really matter either way for this job. Thanks so much, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s Image removed by sender. Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Image removed by sender. Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 425 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 463 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Tue Sep 8 16:24:03 2020 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 16:24:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? In-Reply-To: <021901d68608$89caadb0$9d600910$@pv-cables.com> References: <021901d68608$89caadb0$9d600910$@pv-cables.com> Message-ID: <003401d6861d$fe74f660$fb5ee320$@mindspring.com> I also suggest the Sol-Ark 12’s. Extremely efficient, simple to program, does a wonderful job in either ac coupling, stand alone or pure off grid and terrific customer support. Peter Giroux ASAE From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Bryan Norkunas Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:50 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? Sol-Arks would be possible, you can link 8 inverters. Bryan PV-Cables From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 10:40 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? I'd suggest giving the crew at Sol-Ark a quick call @ 972-575-8875 with their 12kw unit. Not sure what their max number of inverters are. Christopher On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:14 PM Kienan Maxfield wrote: Hey all, I'm designing a microgrid sized off-grid system for somebody, and I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any issues with the following designs... The client says he needs 70 kW. His load data looks pretty solid, so I'm sticking to using that number as a minimum, at least during the initial proposal stage. I only know of two possible equipment options for this size range... 1. I think I can use up to 10 Outback Radians, for up to an 80 kW system. Are there any bugs or problems with using this many inverters on one hub? I know I've read about issues with selling to the grid, but that's not an issue, this is off-grid. 2. I know that the SMA cluster box with sunny islands can allow for up to a 72 kW system. Do you know of any bugs or problems with this system? Are there any other options that anyone would suggest? Schneider's website says they can only do up to 61 kW, and Victron can only do up to 60 kW. I know that the Outback system would yield a 240/120 Split-Phase system and that the SMA would yield a 208/120 3Ø system, but this doesn't really matter either way for this job. Thanks so much, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 425 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 463 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Tue Sep 8 22:45:12 2020 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (MiJo Nels) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 02:45:12 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? In-Reply-To: <003401d6861d$fe74f660$fb5ee320$@mindspring.com> References: <021901d68608$89caadb0$9d600910$@pv-cables.com>, <003401d6861d$fe74f660$fb5ee320$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: we've found SolArk to be SOLID!! .. And yes 8 inv yield about 96kW, with a TON of surge capabilities.. Joe Nelson Project Manager C-46/C-10 Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation CSL# 868816 www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com 530-273-4422 (Office) 530-217-8385 (Cell)      ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of pgiroux at mindspring.com Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:24:03 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? I also suggest the Sol-Ark 12’s. Extremely efficient, simple to program, does a wonderful job in either ac coupling, stand alone or pure off grid and terrific customer support. Peter Giroux ASAE From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Bryan Norkunas Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:50 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? Sol-Arks would be possible, you can link 8 inverters. Bryan PV-Cables From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 10:40 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? I'd suggest giving the crew at Sol-Ark a quick call @ 972-575-8875 with their 12kw unit. Not sure what their max number of inverters are. Christopher On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:14 PM Kienan Maxfield > wrote: Hey all, I'm designing a microgrid sized off-grid system for somebody, and I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any issues with the following designs... The client says he needs 70 kW. His load data looks pretty solid, so I'm sticking to using that number as a minimum, at least during the initial proposal stage. I only know of two possible equipment options for this size range... 1. I think I can use up to 10 Outback Radians, for up to an 80 kW system. Are there any bugs or problems with using this many inverters on one hub? I know I've read about issues with selling to the grid, but that's not an issue, this is off-grid. 2. I know that the SMA cluster box with sunny islands can allow for up to a 72 kW system. Do you know of any bugs or problems with this system? Are there any other options that anyone would suggest? Schneider's website says they can only do up to 61 kW, and Victron can only do up to 60 kW. I know that the Outback system would yield a 240/120 Split-Phase system and that the SMA would yield a 208/120 3Ø system, but this doesn't really matter either way for this job. Thanks so much, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s [Image removed by sender.] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [Image removed by sender.] Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." [https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-green-avg-v1.png] Virus-free. www.avg.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 425 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 463 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Sep 8 22:50:16 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 19:50:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7DCF153D-D746-4F45-8454-F1F3BC0B97BF@gmail.com> Hi Joe A correction Both the 8 and 12kw are 9 kw inverters In off grid mode according to the specs. For grid selling the 12kw is 12 kw. Jay Peltz power > On Sep 8, 2020, at 7:45 PM, MiJo Nels wrote: > >  > we've found SolArk to be SOLID!! .. And yes 8 inv yield about 96kW, with a TON of surge capabilities.. > > Joe Nelson > > Project Manager C-46/C-10 > Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation > > CSL# 868816 > www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com > 530-273-4422 (Office) > > 530-217-8385 (Cell) > >  > >     > > > From: RE-wrenches on behalf of pgiroux at mindspring.com > Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:24:03 PM > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? > > I also suggest the Sol-Ark 12’s. Extremely efficient, simple to program, does a wonderful job in either ac coupling, stand alone or pure off grid and terrific customer support. > > Peter Giroux > ASAE > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Bryan Norkunas > Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:50 PM > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? > > Sol-Arks would be possible, you can link 8 inverters. > > Bryan > PV-Cables > > > > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer > Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 10:40 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? > > I'd suggest giving the crew at Sol-Ark a quick call @ 972-575-8875 with their 12kw unit. Not sure what their max number of inverters are. > > Christopher > > On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:14 PM Kienan Maxfield wrote: > Hey all, I'm designing a microgrid sized off-grid system for somebody, and I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any issues with the following designs... > > The client says he needs 70 kW. His load data looks pretty solid, so I'm sticking to using that number as a minimum, at least during the initial proposal stage. I only know of two possible equipment options for this size range... > > I think I can use up to 10 Outback Radians, for up to an 80 kW system. Are there any bugs or problems with using this many inverters on one hub? I know I've read about issues with selling to the grid, but that's not an issue, this is off-grid. > I know that the SMA cluster box with sunny islands can allow for up to a 72 kW system. Do you know of any bugs or problems with this system? > > > Are there any other options that anyone would suggest? Schneider's website says they can only do up to 61 kW, and Victron can only do up to 60 kW. > > > I know that the Outback system would yield a 240/120 Split-Phase system and that the SMA would yield a 208/120 3Ø system, but this doesn't really matter either way for this job. > > Thanks so much, > Kienan > > > Maxfield Solar > maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com > (801) 631-5584 (Cell) > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Chris Schaefer’s > > > Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > > Virus-free. www.avg.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Wed Sep 9 11:32:51 2020 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 15:32:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? In-Reply-To: <7DCF153D-D746-4F45-8454-F1F3BC0B97BF@gmail.com> References: , <7DCF153D-D746-4F45-8454-F1F3BC0B97BF@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you all so much for the suggestions!! I hadn't thought of SolArk, but I'll have to include that in my proposals. It sounds like they've really gathered quite a following. Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jay Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 8:50 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? Hi Joe A correction Both the 8 and 12kw are 9 kw inverters In off grid mode according to the specs. For grid selling the 12kw is 12 kw. Jay Peltz power On Sep 8, 2020, at 7:45 PM, MiJo Nels wrote:  we've found SolArk to be SOLID!! .. And yes 8 inv yield about 96kW, with a TON of surge capabilities.. Joe Nelson Project Manager C-46/C-10 Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation CSL# 868816 www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com 530-273-4422 (Office) 530-217-8385 (Cell)      ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of pgiroux at mindspring.com Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:24:03 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? I also suggest the Sol-Ark 12’s. Extremely efficient, simple to program, does a wonderful job in either ac coupling, stand alone or pure off grid and terrific customer support. Peter Giroux ASAE From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Bryan Norkunas Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:50 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? Sol-Arks would be possible, you can link 8 inverters. Bryan PV-Cables From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 10:40 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? I'd suggest giving the crew at Sol-Ark a quick call @ 972-575-8875 with their 12kw unit. Not sure what their max number of inverters are. Christopher On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:14 PM Kienan Maxfield > wrote: Hey all, I'm designing a microgrid sized off-grid system for somebody, and I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any issues with the following designs... The client says he needs 70 kW. His load data looks pretty solid, so I'm sticking to using that number as a minimum, at least during the initial proposal stage. I only know of two possible equipment options for this size range... 1. I think I can use up to 10 Outback Radians, for up to an 80 kW system. Are there any bugs or problems with using this many inverters on one hub? I know I've read about issues with selling to the grid, but that's not an issue, this is off-grid. 2. I know that the SMA cluster box with sunny islands can allow for up to a 72 kW system. Do you know of any bugs or problems with this system? Are there any other options that anyone would suggest? Schneider's website says they can only do up to 61 kW, and Victron can only do up to 60 kW. I know that the Outback system would yield a 240/120 Split-Phase system and that the SMA would yield a 208/120 3Ø system, but this doesn't really matter either way for this job. Thanks so much, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." [https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-green-avg-v1.png] Virus-free. www.avg.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Sep 9 13:14:14 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 10:14:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Microgrid=2E=2E=2E_Outback_or_SMA_or_oth?= =?utf-8?b?ZXI/?= In-Reply-To: References: , <7DCF153D-D746-4F45-8454-F1F3BC0B97BF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <15006cc846d17a972d7362657cc08a1f@127.0.0.1> Due diligence on Sol Arc. I would look at them harder if I were you! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 9 Sep 2020 15:32:51 +0000, Kienan Maxfield wrote: Thank you all so much for the suggestions!! I hadn't thought of SolArk, but I'll have to include that in my proposals. It sounds like they've really gathered quite a following. Thanks, Kienan MAXFIELD SOLAR MAXFIELDSOLAR at HOTMAIL.COM [3] (801) 631-5584 (CELL) ------------------------- FROM: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jay SENT: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 8:50 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? Hi Joe A correction Both the 8 and 12kw are 9 kw inverters In off grid mode according to the specs. For grid selling the 12kw is 12 kw. Jay Peltz power On Sep 8, 2020, at 7:45 PM, MiJo Nels wrote: we've found SolArk to be SOLID!! .. And yes 8 inv yield about 96kW, with a TON of surge capabilities.. Joe Nelson Project Manager C-46/C-10 Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation CSL# 868816 www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com [4] 530-273-4422 (Office) 530-217-8385 (Cell)      ------------------------- FROM: RE-wrenches on behalf of pgiroux at mindspring.com SENT: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:24:03 PM TO: 'RE-wrenches' SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? I also suggest the Sol-Ark 12's. Extremely efficient, simple to program, does a wonderful job in either ac coupling, stand alone or pure off grid and terrific customer support. Peter Giroux ASAE FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Bryan Norkunas SENT: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:50 PM TO: 'RE-wrenches' SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? Sol-Arks would be possible, you can link 8 inverters. BRYAN PV-CABLES FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [5]] ON BEHALF OF Chris Schaefer SENT: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 10:40 AM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? I'd suggest giving the crew at Sol-Ark a quick call @ 972-575-8875 with their 12kw unit. Not sure what their max number of inverters are. Christopher On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:14 PM Kienan Maxfield wrote: Hey all, I'm designing a microgrid sized off-grid system for somebody, and I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any issues with the following designs... The client says he needs 70 kW. His load data looks pretty solid, so I'm sticking to using that number as a minimum, at least during the initial proposal stage. I only know of two possible equipment options for this size range... * I think I can use up to 10 Outback Radians, for up to an 80 kW system. Are there any bugs or problems with using this many inverters on one hub? I know I've read about issues with selling to the grid, but that's not an issue, this is off-grid. * I know that the SMA cluster box with sunny islands can allow for up to a 72 kW system. Do you know of any bugs or problems with this system? Are there any other options that anyone would suggest? Schneider's website says they can only do up to 61 kW, and Victron can only do up to 60 kW. I know that the Outback system would yield a 240/120 Split-Phase system and that the SMA would yield a 208/120 3Ø system, but this doesn't really matter either way for this job. Thanks so much, Kienan MAXFIELD SOLAR MAXFIELDSOLAR at HOTMAIL.COM [7] (801) 631-5584 (CELL) _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] List rules ">Chris Schaefer's Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com [13] ~ E-mail: _chris at solarandwindfx.com [14]_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." [15] Virus-free. www.avg.com [16] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com [4] http://www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com [5] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] mailto:maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com [7] mailto:maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com [8] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [14] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com [15] http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient [16] http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Wed Sep 9 13:37:36 2020 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 13:37:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? In-Reply-To: <15006cc846d17a972d7362657cc08a1f@127.0.0.1> References: , <7DCF153D-D746-4F45-8454-F1F3BC0B97BF@gmail.com> <15006cc846d17a972d7362657cc08a1f@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <327420812f9fc9832c3beea61e735047.squirrel@mail.otelco.net> What do you see, Dave? We have 6 12 kW and two 8 kW installed so far in the Bahamas and two here in Maine, all with Fortress batteries, and I cannot be more pleased. I do wish they had a remote monitor panel for easier at home monitoring and I guess I would rather they had their own monitoring system instead of Powerview, but compared to others I am thrilled at the ease of installation and programming, zero service calls and wireless connectivity for monitoring over the internet. Thanks, Daryl > > > Due diligence on Sol Arc. I would look at them harder if I were you! > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines > don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > [2] > text 209 813 0060 > > On Wed, 9 Sep 2020 15:32:51 +0000, Kienan Maxfield > wrote: Thank you all so much for the suggestions!! I hadn't thought of > SolArk, but I'll have to include that in my proposals. It sounds like > they've really gathered quite a following. Thanks, Kienan > MAXFIELD > SOLAR MAXFIELDSOLAR at HOTMAIL.COM [3] (801) 631-5584 (CELL) > > ------------------------- > FROM: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jay > SENT: > Tuesday, September 8, 2020 8:50 PM > TO: RE-wrenches > SUBJECT: Re: > [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? Hi Joe A > correction Both the 8 and 12kw are 9 kw inverters In off grid mode > according to the specs. For grid selling the 12kw is 12 kw. Jay > Peltz > power > On Sep 8, 2020, at 7:45 PM, MiJo Nels wrote: > we've found > SolArk to be SOLID!! .. And yes 8 inv yield about 96kW, with a TON of > surge > capabilities.. > Joe Nelson > Project Manager C-46/C-10 Sustainable > Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation > CSL# 868816 > www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com [4] 530-273-4422 (Office) > 530-217-8385 > (Cell) >  >     > > ------------------------- > FROM: RE-wrenches on > behalf of pgiroux at mindspring.com > SENT: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:24:03 > PM > TO: 'RE-wrenches' > SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or > SMA or other? > > I also suggest the Sol-Ark 12's. Extremely efficient, > simple to program, does a wonderful job in either ac coupling, stand alone > or pure off grid and terrific customer support. > > Peter Giroux > > ASAE > > > FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Bryan Norkunas > SENT: Tuesday, September > 8, 2020 1:50 PM > TO: 'RE-wrenches' > SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] > Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? > > Sol-Arks would be possible, you > can link 8 inverters. > > BRYAN > > PV-CABLES > > FROM: RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [5]] ON BEHALF OF Chris > Schaefer > SENT: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 10:40 AM > TO: RE-wrenches > > SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? > > I'd > suggest giving the crew at Sol-Ark a quick call @ 972-575-8875 with their > 12kw unit. Not sure what their max number of inverters are. > > Christopher > > > On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:14 PM Kienan Maxfield wrote: > > Hey all, > I'm designing a microgrid sized off-grid system for somebody, and I'm just > wondering if anyone knows of any issues with the following designs... > > > The client says he needs 70 kW. His load data looks pretty solid, so I'm > sticking to using that number as a minimum, at least during the initial > proposal stage. I only know of two possible equipment options for this > size > range... > > * I think I can use up to 10 Outback Radians, for up to an > 80 kW system. Are there any bugs or problems with using this many > inverters > on one hub? I know I've read about issues with selling to the grid, but > that's not an issue, this is off-grid. > * I know that the SMA cluster box > with sunny islands can allow for up to a 72 kW system. Do you know of any > bugs or problems with this system? > > Are there any other options that anyone > would suggest? Schneider's website says they can only do up to 61 kW, and > Victron can only do up to 60 kW. > > I know that the Outback system would > yield a 240/120 Split-Phase system and that the SMA would yield a 208/120 > 3Ø system, but this doesn't really matter either way for this job. > > > Thanks so much, > > Kienan > > MAXFIELD SOLAR > > > MAXFIELDSOLAR at HOTMAIL.COM [7] > > (801) 631-5584 (CELL) > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by > Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] > > > List rules ">Chris Schaefer's > > Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > > 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com > [13] ~ E-mail: _chris at solarandwindfx.com [14]_ > > Thomas Jefferson, the > author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to > exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to > those who would not." > > [15] > Virus-free. www.avg.com [16] > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood > Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change > listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List > rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update > participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > Links: > ------ > [1] > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net > [3] > mailto:maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com > [4] > http://www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com > [5] > mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > [6] > mailto:maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com > [7] mailto:maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com > [8] > mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > [9] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [10] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [11] > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > [12] > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > [13] http://www.solarandwindfx.com > [14] > mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com > [15] > http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient > [16] > http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From cadams at sunrocksolar.com Wed Sep 9 14:03:40 2020 From: cadams at sunrocksolar.com (Carl Adams) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 14:03:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar CS6X-320P modules needed Message-ID: Please respond off list if you have any of these modules available. I have a customer in need of three modules due to storm damage. With Kind Regards Carl Adams, President SunRock Solar, LLC 513.290.9072 (mobile) 513.766.6025 (office) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Sep 9 16:12:10 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 16:12:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? In-Reply-To: References: <021901d68608$89caadb0$9d600910$@pv-cables.com> <003401d6861d$fe74f660$fb5ee320$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Any tips on combining AC output from these units when stacking several of them? What bus/OCPD system are you using? Same question for generator/grid input. The solar MPPT inputs appear to be dead simple. Jason Szumlanski On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM MiJo Nels wrote: > we've found SolArk to be SOLID!! .. And yes 8 inv yield about 96kW, with a > TON of surge capabilities.. > > Joe Nelson > > Project Manager C-46/C-10 > Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation > > CSL# 868816 > www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com > > 530-273-4422 (Office) > > 530-217-8385 (Cell) > >  > >     > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of pgiroux at mindspring.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:24:03 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? > > > I also suggest the Sol-Ark 12’s. Extremely efficient, simple to program, > does a wonderful job in either ac coupling, stand alone or pure off grid > and terrific customer support. > > > > Peter Giroux > > ASAE > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Bryan Norkunas > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:50 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? > > > > Sol-Arks would be possible, you can link 8 inverters. > > > > *Bryan * > > *PV-Cables* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Chris Schaefer > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 10:40 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? > > > > I'd suggest giving the crew at Sol-Ark a quick call @ 972-575-8875 with > their 12kw unit. Not sure what their max number of inverters are. > > > > Christopher > > > > On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:14 PM Kienan Maxfield > wrote: > > Hey all, I'm designing a microgrid sized off-grid system for somebody, and > I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any issues with the following > designs... > > > > The client says he needs 70 kW. His load data looks pretty solid, so I'm > sticking to using that number as a minimum, at least during the initial > proposal stage. I only know of two possible equipment options for this size > range... > > > > 1. I think I can use up to 10 Outback Radians, for up to an 80 kW > system. Are there any bugs or problems with using this many inverters on > one hub? I know I've read about issues with selling to the grid, but that's > not an issue, this is off-grid. > 2. I know that the SMA cluster box with sunny islands can allow for up > to a 72 kW system. Do you know of any bugs or problems with this system? > > > > > > Are there any other options that anyone would suggest? Schneider's website > says they can only do up to 61 kW, and Victron can only do up to 60 kW. > > > > > > I know that the Outback system would yield a 240/120 Split-Phase system > and that the SMA would yield a 208/120 3Ø system, but this doesn't really > matter either way for this job. > > > > Thanks so much, > > Kienan > > > > > > *Maxfield Solar* > > *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* > > *(801) 631-5584 (Cell)* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com > > ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com * > > *[image: Image removed by sender.]* > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > > Virus-free. > www.avg.com > > <#m_-5154309655842368511_x_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 425 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 463 bytes Desc: not available URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Wed Sep 9 21:49:58 2020 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 18:49:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? In-Reply-To: References: <021901d68608$89caadb0$9d600910$@pv-cables.com> <003401d6861d$fe74f660$fb5ee320$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <98687ab7-a3b0-b611-ab9d-59a5bf61197e@berkeleysolar.com> The most important thing here is that no one is standing up to sing the praises of either SMA or Outback. I myself have sent about 2 hours on hold over 2 days trying to get an issue addressed by SMA. Re: Sol-Arc I would pay a lot extra or take some not so good aspect in exchange for good technical support. On 9/9/2020 1:12 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > Any tips on combining AC output from these units when stacking several > of them? What bus/OCPD system are you using? Same question for > generator/grid input. > > The solar MPPT inputs appear to be dead simple. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > > > > * > > * > > > On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM MiJo Nels > wrote: > > we've found SolArk to be SOLID!! .. And yes 8 inv yield about > 96kW, with a TON of surge capabilities.. > > Joe Nelson > > Project Manager C-46/C-10 > Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation > > CSL# 868816 > www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com > > 530-273-4422 (Office) > > 530-217-8385 (Cell) > >  > >     > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches > on behalf of > pgiroux at mindspring.com > > > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:24:03 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? > > I also suggest the Sol-Ark 12’s. Extremely efficient, simple to > program, does a wonderful job in either ac coupling, stand alone > or pure off grid and terrific customer support. > > Peter Giroux > > ASAE > > *From:*RE-wrenches > *On Behalf Of > *Bryan Norkunas > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:50 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? > > Sol-Arks would be possible, you can link 8 inverters. > > *Bryan * > > *PV-Cables* > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of > *Chris Schaefer > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 10:40 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? > > I'd suggest giving the crew at Sol-Ark a quick call @ 972-575-8875 > with their 12kw unit. Not sure what their max number of inverters are. > > Christopher > > On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:14 PM Kienan Maxfield > > wrote: > > Hey all, I'm designing a microgrid sized off-grid system for > somebody, and I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any issues > with the following designs... > > The client says he needs 70 kW. His load data looks pretty > solid, so I'm sticking to using that number as a minimum, at > least during the initial proposal stage. I only know of two > possible equipment options for this size range... > > 1. I think I can use up to 10 Outback Radians, for up to an > 80 kW system. Are there any bugs or problems with using > this many inverters on one hub? I know I've read about > issues with selling to the grid, but that's not an issue, > this is off-grid. > 2. I know that the SMA cluster box with sunny islands can > allow for up to a 72 kW system. Do you know of any bugs or > problems with this system? > > Are there any other options that anyone would suggest? > Schneider's website says they can only do up to 61 kW, and > Victron can only do up to 60 kW. > > I know that the Outback system would yield a 240/120 > Split-Phase system and that the SMA would yield a 208/120 3Ø > system, but this doesn't really matter either way for this job. > > Thanks so much, > > Kienan > > *Maxfield Solar* > > *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* > > *(801) 631-5584 (Cell)*** > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > Image removed by sender. > > /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com > > ~ E-mail: //chris at solarandwindfx.com > / > > /Image removed by sender./ > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who > are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > > > Virus-free. www.avg.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 425 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 463 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Sep 10 00:21:42 2020 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 21:21:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? In-Reply-To: <98687ab7-a3b0-b611-ab9d-59a5bf61197e@berkeleysolar.com> References: <021901d68608$89caadb0$9d600910$@pv-cables.com> <003401d6861d$fe74f660$fb5ee320$@mindspring.com> <98687ab7-a3b0-b611-ab9d-59a5bf61197e@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <505dae11-996a-bd5d-b200-278c54f100f1@psln.com> OK, I'll bite.  I use SMA and Outback almost exclusively.  SMA for grid-tie so I can't vouch for SI for Off-grid and I don't seem to have the same wait problem with SMA, its usually 10-20 minutes.             And Outback.... well they're not perfect but I've been using there stuff since day 1 (thanks Bob-O), still using FX3524 ser# 0007 and been installing since they were Trace. Service?  well, let's just say it varies but I've been willing to put up with it.  The WORST part of of Outback service calls is the music they pipe in on 'hold'...its enough to make you hang up.             Sol-ark, the new kid on the block sounds slick and I'm genuinely tempted, specs look great..wonder what their 'hold' music is like? Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 9/9/2020 6:49 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > > The most important thing here is that no one is standing up to sing > the praises of either SMA or Outback. > > I myself have sent about 2 hours on hold over 2 days trying to get an > issue addressed by SMA. > > Re: Sol-Arc I would pay a lot extra or take some not so good aspect in > exchange for good technical support. > > On 9/9/2020 1:12 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> Any tips on combining AC output from these units when stacking >> several of them? What bus/OCPD system are you using? Same question >> for generator/grid input. >> >> The solar MPPT inputs appear to be dead simple. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Sep 10 08:01:41 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 06:01:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? In-Reply-To: <505dae11-996a-bd5d-b200-278c54f100f1@psln.com> References: <021901d68608$89caadb0$9d600910$@pv-cables.com> <003401d6861d$fe74f660$fb5ee320$@mindspring.com> <98687ab7-a3b0-b611-ab9d-59a5bf61197e@berkeleysolar.com> <505dae11-996a-bd5d-b200-278c54f100f1@psln.com> Message-ID: The largest we've done is a 4 stack of 8k Radians and a 6 stack of Sunny Islands with the Mutlicluster box. They both have worked fine and there are advantages to each approach. An advantage to a multicluster approach is that you can have smaller and segmented battery banks that don't require custom DC bussing. Each cluster master manages the battery bank. The solar input can go straight into the multicluster box since AC coupling works very well with SMA equipment. Things get very busy with a Radian system quickly. We had to use a custom bussing system to combine the battery banks at around 1500A and miles of 4/0 cable to feed more bussing for the solar input and Radian connection. Regarding getting the AC in and out of the Radian, we opted to use dedicated panelboards for both the input and the output with double pole 60A breakers feeding in and out of each Radian. It's also a good idea to have a bypass switch upstream of the AC input panelboard that can bypass the system if needed. Both of these systems worked well but took a lot of planning for the spatial layout and took a lot of wall space, much more than we initially thought. Good Luck and let us know which approach you take. On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 10:20 PM frenergy wrote: > OK, I'll bite. I use SMA and Outback almost exclusively. SMA for > grid-tie so I can't vouch for SI for Off-grid and I don't seem to have the > same wait problem with SMA, its usually 10-20 minutes. > > And Outback.... well they're not perfect but I've been using > there stuff since day 1 (thanks Bob-O), still using FX3524 ser# 0007 and > been installing since they were Trace. Service? well, let's just say it > varies but I've been willing to put up with it. The WORST part of of > Outback service calls is the music they pipe in on 'hold'...its enough to > make you hang up. > > Sol-ark, the new kid on the block sounds slick and I'm > genuinely tempted, specs look great..wonder what their 'hold' music is like? > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > On 9/9/2020 6:49 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > > The most important thing here is that no one is standing up to sing the > praises of either SMA or Outback. > > I myself have sent about 2 hours on hold over 2 days trying to get an > issue addressed by SMA. > > Re: Sol-Arc I would pay a lot extra or take some not so good aspect in > exchange for good technical support. > On 9/9/2020 1:12 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Any tips on combining AC output from these units when stacking several of > them? What bus/OCPD system are you using? Same question for generator/grid > input. > > The solar MPPT inputs appear to be dead simple. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > <#m_3055688145284475229_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Thu Sep 10 10:26:47 2020 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 10:26:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? In-Reply-To: <505dae11-996a-bd5d-b200-278c54f100f1@psln.com> References: <021901d68608$89caadb0$9d600910$@pv-cables.com> <003401d6861d$fe74f660$fb5ee320$@mindspring.com> <98687ab7-a3b0-b611-ab9d-59a5bf61197e@berkeleysolar.com> <505dae11-996a-bd5d-b200-278c54f100f1@psln.com> Message-ID: Hey Bill, They're still small enough that, at least so far, there is no hold music! And we combine ac outputs with an "ac combiner panel" simply a single phase or three phase panel, with each inverter feeding a breaker in that panel and ensuring that we use either a main breaker that can be back fed or a panel with feed through lugs. It is simple and safe and code compliant. Daryl > OK, I'll bite.  I use SMA and Outback almost exclusively.  SMA for > grid-tie so I can't vouch for SI for Off-grid and I don't seem to have > the same wait problem with SMA, its usually 10-20 minutes. > >             And Outback.... well they're not perfect but I've been > using there stuff since day 1 (thanks Bob-O), still using FX3524 ser# > 0007 and been installing since they were Trace. Service?  well, let's > just say it varies but I've been willing to put up with it.  The WORST > part of of Outback service calls is the music they pipe in on > 'hold'...its enough to make you hang up. > >             Sol-ark, the new kid on the block sounds slick and I'm > genuinely tempted, specs look great..wonder what their 'hold' music is > like? > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > On 9/9/2020 6:49 PM, Mark Frye wrote: >> >> The most important thing here is that no one is standing up to sing >> the praises of either SMA or Outback. >> >> I myself have sent about 2 hours on hold over 2 days trying to get an >> issue addressed by SMA. >> >> Re: Sol-Arc I would pay a lot extra or take some not so good aspect in >> exchange for good technical support. >> >> On 9/9/2020 1:12 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> Any tips on combining AC output from these units when stacking >>> several of them? What bus/OCPD system are you using? Same question >>> for generator/grid input. >>> >>> The solar MPPT inputs appear to be dead simple. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Sep 10 07:44:36 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:44:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? In-Reply-To: <98687ab7-a3b0-b611-ab9d-59a5bf61197e@berkeleysolar.com> References: <021901d68608$89caadb0$9d600910$@pv-cables.com> <003401d6861d$fe74f660$fb5ee320$@mindspring.com> <98687ab7-a3b0-b611-ab9d-59a5bf61197e@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: There is a huge distinction in a hybrid inverter that integrates MPPT charge control. Eliminating all of the extraneous hardware and circuit protection associated with charge controllers is very appealing. The 500V input limit is also a game-changer in terms of wire size. I'm very interested in this approach. On the flip size, an AC Coupled approach is also appealing in a lot of circumstances. Since Sol-Ark supports that, too, it's hard to find downsides other than their infancy in the industry. And for what it's worth, my experience with SMA tech support recently has been abysmal. Long hold times and getting bounced around departments. Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 9:50 PM Mark Frye wrote: > The most important thing here is that no one is standing up to sing the > praises of either SMA or Outback. > > I myself have sent about 2 hours on hold over 2 days trying to get an > issue addressed by SMA. > > Re: Sol-Arc I would pay a lot extra or take some not so good aspect in > exchange for good technical support. > On 9/9/2020 1:12 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Any tips on combining AC output from these units when stacking several of > them? What bus/OCPD system are you using? Same question for generator/grid > input. > > The solar MPPT inputs appear to be dead simple. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM MiJo Nels > wrote: > >> we've found SolArk to be SOLID!! .. And yes 8 inv yield about 96kW, with >> a TON of surge capabilities.. >> >> Joe Nelson >> >> Project Manager C-46/C-10 >> Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation >> >> CSL# 868816 >> www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com >> >> 530-273-4422 (Office) >> >> 530-217-8385 (Cell) >> >>  >> >>     >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of pgiroux at mindspring.com >> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:24:03 PM >> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? >> >> >> I also suggest the Sol-Ark 12’s. Extremely efficient, simple to program, >> does a wonderful job in either ac coupling, stand alone or pure off grid >> and terrific customer support. >> >> >> >> Peter Giroux >> >> ASAE >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Bryan Norkunas >> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:50 PM >> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? >> >> >> >> Sol-Arks would be possible, you can link 8 inverters. >> >> >> >> *Bryan * >> >> *PV-Cables* >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ] *On Behalf Of *Chris >> Schaefer >> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 10:40 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? >> >> >> >> I'd suggest giving the crew at Sol-Ark a quick call @ 972-575-8875 with >> their 12kw unit. Not sure what their max number of inverters are. >> >> >> >> Christopher >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:14 PM Kienan Maxfield >> wrote: >> >> Hey all, I'm designing a microgrid sized off-grid system for somebody, >> and I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any issues with the following >> designs... >> >> >> >> The client says he needs 70 kW. His load data looks pretty solid, so I'm >> sticking to using that number as a minimum, at least during the initial >> proposal stage. I only know of two possible equipment options for this size >> range... >> >> >> >> 1. I think I can use up to 10 Outback Radians, for up to an 80 kW >> system. Are there any bugs or problems with using this many inverters on >> one hub? I know I've read about issues with selling to the grid, but that's >> not an issue, this is off-grid. >> 2. I know that the SMA cluster box with sunny islands can allow for >> up to a 72 kW system. Do you know of any bugs or problems with this system? >> >> >> >> >> >> Are there any other options that anyone would suggest? Schneider's >> website says they can only do up to 61 kW, and Victron can only do up to 60 >> kW. >> >> >> >> >> >> I know that the Outback system would yield a 240/120 Split-Phase system >> and that the SMA would yield a 208/120 3Ø system, but this doesn't really >> matter either way for this job. >> >> >> >> Thanks so much, >> >> Kienan >> >> >> >> >> >> *Maxfield Solar* >> >> *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* >> >> *(801) 631-5584 (Cell)* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> [image: Image removed by sender.] >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com >> >> ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com * >> >> *[image: Image removed by sender.]* >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> >> Virus-free. >> www.avg.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 425 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 463 bytes Desc: not available URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Thu Sep 10 10:41:03 2020 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 10:41:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? In-Reply-To: References: <021901d68608$89caadb0$9d600910$@pv-cables.com> <003401d6861d$fe74f660$fb5ee320$@mindspring.com> <98687ab7-a3b0-b611-ab9d-59a5bf61197e@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <10d0783a9e661e6b3b850674db084148.squirrel@mail.otelco.net> We've had great luck using the Tigo (and SMA) optimizers with SolArk to conform to NEC2017 and CEC2018. > There is a huge distinction in a hybrid inverter that integrates MPPT > charge control. Eliminating all of the extraneous hardware and circuit > protection associated with charge controllers is very appealing. The 500V > input limit is also a game-changer in terms of wire size. I'm very > interested in this approach. > > On the flip size, an AC Coupled approach is also appealing in a lot of > circumstances. Since Sol-Ark supports that, too, it's hard to find > downsides other than their infancy in the industry. > > And for what it's worth, my experience with SMA tech support recently has > been abysmal. Long hold times and getting bounced around departments. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 9:50 PM Mark Frye wrote: > >> The most important thing here is that no one is standing up to sing the >> praises of either SMA or Outback. >> >> I myself have sent about 2 hours on hold over 2 days trying to get an >> issue addressed by SMA. >> >> Re: Sol-Arc I would pay a lot extra or take some not so good aspect in >> exchange for good technical support. >> On 9/9/2020 1:12 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> >> Any tips on combining AC output from these units when stacking several >> of >> them? What bus/OCPD system are you using? Same question for >> generator/grid >> input. >> >> The solar MPPT inputs appear to be dead simple. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM MiJo Nels >> wrote: >> >>> we've found SolArk to be SOLID!! .. And yes 8 inv yield about 96kW, >>> with >>> a TON of surge capabilities.. >>> >>> Joe Nelson >>> >>> Project Manager C-46/C-10 >>> Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation >>> >>> CSL# 868816 >>> www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com >>> >>> 530-273-4422 (Office) >>> >>> 530-217-8385 (Cell) >>> >>>  >>> >>>     >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>> behalf of pgiroux at mindspring.com >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:24:03 PM >>> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? >>> >>> >>> I also suggest the Sol-Ark 12’s. Extremely efficient, simple to >>> program, >>> does a wonderful job in either ac coupling, stand alone or pure off >>> grid >>> and terrific customer support. >>> >>> >>> >>> Peter Giroux >>> >>> ASAE >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>> Behalf Of *Bryan Norkunas >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:50 PM >>> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? >>> >>> >>> >>> Sol-Arks would be possible, you can link 8 inverters. >>> >>> >>> >>> *Bryan * >>> >>> *PV-Cables* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> ] *On Behalf Of *Chris >>> Schaefer >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 10:40 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? >>> >>> >>> >>> I'd suggest giving the crew at Sol-Ark a quick call @ 972-575-8875 with >>> their 12kw unit. Not sure what their max number of inverters are. >>> >>> >>> >>> Christopher >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:14 PM Kienan Maxfield >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hey all, I'm designing a microgrid sized off-grid system for somebody, >>> and I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any issues with the following >>> designs... >>> >>> >>> >>> The client says he needs 70 kW. His load data looks pretty solid, so >>> I'm >>> sticking to using that number as a minimum, at least during the initial >>> proposal stage. I only know of two possible equipment options for this >>> size >>> range... >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. I think I can use up to 10 Outback Radians, for up to an 80 kW >>> system. Are there any bugs or problems with using this many >>> inverters on >>> one hub? I know I've read about issues with selling to the grid, but >>> that's >>> not an issue, this is off-grid. >>> 2. I know that the SMA cluster box with sunny islands can allow for >>> up to a 72 kW system. Do you know of any bugs or problems with this >>> system? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Are there any other options that anyone would suggest? Schneider's >>> website says they can only do up to 61 kW, and Victron can only do up >>> to 60 >>> kW. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I know that the Outback system would yield a 240/120 Split-Phase system >>> and that the SMA would yield a 208/120 3Ø system, but this doesn't >>> really >>> matter either way for this job. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks so much, >>> >>> Kienan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Maxfield Solar* >>> >>> *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* >>> >>> *(801) 631-5584 (Cell)* >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Chris Schaefer’s >>> [image: Image removed by sender.] >>> >>> >>> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >>> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>> www.solarandwindfx.com >>> >>> ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com * >>> >>> *[image: Image removed by sender.]* >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >>> willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> >>> >>> >>> Virus-free. >>> www.avg.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & >> settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Sep 10 12:37:14 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 09:37:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Microgrid=2E=2E=2E_Outback_or_SMA_or_oth?= =?utf-8?b?ZXI/?= In-Reply-To: References: <021901d68608$89caadb0$9d600910$@pv-cables.com> <003401d6861d$fe74f660$fb5ee320$@mindspring.com> <98687ab7-a3b0-b611-ab9d-59a5bf61197e@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: In an all in one, the good parts are balanced, sometimes, by a small failure making the all in one useless. Only a complete spare will save the day, or night...Also wonder about real world surge capacity on 1 hp pumps and big air compressors. I am glad to hear that they will be making this in Texas, rather than currently only in China. Anyone have more on this please? AC bypass switching is a must for SolArk. They need a PDP or some way to make this easier. The dual mppts are perfect for virtual tracking. I begged for a dual mppt on the new Schneider high voltage 100a mppt :( I wish them good luck and take back most of my concerns. Hope they can make it! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:44:36 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: There is a huge distinction in a hybrid inverter that integrates MPPT charge control. Eliminating all of the extraneous hardware and circuit protection associated with charge controllers is very appealing. The 500V input limit is also a game-changer in terms of wire size. I'm very interested in this approach. On the flip size, an AC Coupled approach is also appealing in a lot of circumstances. Since Sol-Ark supports that, too, it's hard to find downsides other than their infancy in the industry. And for what it's worth, my experience with SMA tech support recently has been abysmal. Long hold times and getting bounced around departments. Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 9:50 PM Mark Frye wrote: The most important thing here is that no one is standing up to sing the praises of either SMA or Outback. I myself have sent about 2 hours on hold over 2 days trying to get an issue addressed by SMA. Re: Sol-Arc I would pay a lot extra or take some not so good aspect in exchange for good technical support. On 9/9/2020 1:12 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Any tips on combining AC output from these units when stacking several of them? What bus/OCPD system are you using? Same question for generator/grid input. The solar MPPT inputs appear to be dead simple. Jason Szumlanski On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM MiJo Nels wrote: we've found SolArk to be SOLID!! .. And yes 8 inv yield about 96kW, with a TON of surge capabilities.. Joe Nelson Project Manager C-46/C-10 Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation CSL# 868816 www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com [5] 530-273-4422 (Office) 530-217-8385 (Cell)      ------------------------- FROM: RE-wrenches on behalf of pgiroux at mindspring.com [7] SENT: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:24:03 PM TO: 'RE-wrenches' SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? I also suggest the Sol-Ark 12's. Extremely efficient, simple to program, does a wonderful job in either ac coupling, stand alone or pure off grid and terrific customer support. Peter Giroux ASAE FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Bryan Norkunas SENT: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:50 PM TO: 'RE-wrenches' SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? Sol-Arks would be possible, you can link 8 inverters. BRYAN PV-CABLES FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [12]] ON BEHALF OF Chris Schaefer SENT: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 10:40 AM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? I'd suggest giving the crew at Sol-Ark a quick call @ 972-575-8875 with their 12kw unit. Not sure what their max number of inverters are. Christopher On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:14 PM Kienan Maxfield wrote: Hey all, I'm designing a microgrid sized off-grid system for somebody, and I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any issues with the following designs... The client says he needs 70 kW. His load data looks pretty solid, so I'm sticking to using that number as a minimum, at least during the initial proposal stage. I only know of two possible equipment options for this size range... * I think I can use up to 10 Outback Radians, for up to an 80 kW system. Are there any bugs or problems with using this many inverters on one hub? I know I've read about issues with selling to the grid, but that's not an issue, this is off-grid. * I know that the SMA cluster box with sunny islands can allow for up to a 72 kW system. Do you know of any bugs or problems with this system? Are there any other options that anyone would suggest? Schneider's website says they can only do up to 61 kW, and Victron can only do up to 60 kW. I know that the Outback system would yield a 240/120 Split-Phase system and that the SMA would yield a 208/120 3Ø system, but this doesn't really matter either way for this job. Thanks so much, Kienan MAXFIELD SOLAR MAXFIELDSOLAR at HOTMAIL.COM [14] (801) 631-5584 (CELL) _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] List rules font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #1f497d;">Chris Schaefer's Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com [21] ~ E-mail: _chris at solarandwindfx.com [22]_ _Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." 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URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 425 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 463 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solsierra1 at gmail.com Thu Sep 10 13:17:25 2020 From: solsierra1 at gmail.com (Vic Guillot) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 10:17:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California SGIP Program requirement for 10 year service warranty and maintenance contract Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, Does anyone have a good 10 year service warranty clause to draw from in the sgip equity resilience program application? Not sure how to find the best verbage for this. It is referenced on page 61 of the 2020 sgip handbook. Thanks! Vic Guillot Vic Guillot Sol Sierra, Inc. 209.795.3554 office 209.768.3560 mobile/text -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philboutelle at gmail.com Thu Sep 10 14:02:32 2020 From: philboutelle at gmail.com (Philip Boutelle) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:02:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California SGIP Program requirement for 10 year service warranty and maintenance contract In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Vic, I had an SGIP application approved with the following language: Contractor provides a 10-year service workmanship warranty covering the battery, inverter, and installation, and references Attachment A, *Battery **Limited Warranty*, a 10-year manufacturer warranty for the battery I also included a copy of the referenced battery manufacturer warranty with the contract/application documentation. -- *Phil Boutelle,* *PE, CEM, NABCEP Emeritus* | Energy Engineer philboutelle at gmail.com | M (831) 359-5268 On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 10:17 AM Vic Guillot wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > Does anyone have a good 10 year service warranty clause to draw from in > the sgip equity resilience program application? Not sure how to find the > best verbage for this. It is referenced on page 61 of the 2020 sgip > handbook. > Thanks! > Vic Guillot > > Vic Guillot > Sol Sierra, Inc. > 209.795.3554 office > 209.768.3560 mobile/text > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solsierra1 at gmail.com Thu Sep 10 14:08:04 2020 From: solsierra1 at gmail.com (Vic Guillot) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:08:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California SGIP Program requirement for 10 year service warranty and maintenance contract In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Philip this is very helpful news. Vic Vic Guillot Sol Sierra, Inc. 209.795.3554 office 209.768.3560 mobile/text On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 11:02 AM Philip Boutelle wrote: > Hi Vic, > > I had an SGIP application approved with the following language: > > > Contractor provides a 10-year service workmanship warranty covering the > battery, inverter, and installation, and references Attachment A, > *Battery **Limited Warranty*, a 10-year manufacturer warranty for the > battery > > > I also included a copy of the referenced battery manufacturer warranty > with the contract/application documentation. > > -- > > *Phil Boutelle,* *PE, CEM, NABCEP Emeritus* | Energy Engineer > philboutelle at gmail.com | M (831) 359-5268 > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 10:17 AM Vic Guillot wrote: > >> Hi Wrenches, >> Does anyone have a good 10 year service warranty clause to draw from in >> the sgip equity resilience program application? Not sure how to find the >> best verbage for this. It is referenced on page 61 of the 2020 sgip >> handbook. >> Thanks! >> Vic Guillot >> >> Vic Guillot >> Sol Sierra, Inc. >> 209.795.3554 office >> 209.768.3560 mobile/text >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Thu Sep 10 14:12:07 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:12:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? In-Reply-To: References: <021901d68608$89caadb0$9d600910$@pv-cables.com> <003401d6861d$fe74f660$fb5ee320$@mindspring.com> <98687ab7-a3b0-b611-ab9d-59a5bf61197e@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <448bc051-ce1f-3c94-5a89-10de9c7085f2@villagepowerdesign.com> I'm loving my first install of Sol Arks - One downside of Sol-Ark (and I can't find many!) is that the GEN terminal can only handle 1 of the following 3: Generator, AC Coupling, or Smart Load.  So if you want both a generator and AC coupling you have to either do a separate transfer switch for the GEN and not run it through the inverters - or you have to go with their internal DC MPPTif you do want the GEN to charge the batteries (unless you are off-grid totally and have no Grid in which case you might be able to run the Generator into Grid?  not sure about that - don't quote me!). Anyone else with any downsides? Best, Jeff Jason Szumlanski wrote on 9/10/20 4:44 AM: > There is a huge distinction in a hybrid inverter that integrates MPPT > charge control. Eliminating all of the extraneous hardware and circuit > protection associated with charge controllers is very appealing. The > 500V input limit is also a game-changer in terms of wire size. I'm > very interested in this approach. > > On the flip size, an AC Coupled approach is also appealing in a lot of > circumstances. Since Sol-Ark supports that, too, it's hard to find > downsides other than their infancy in the industry. > > And for what it's worth, my experience with SMA tech support recently > has been abysmal. Long hold times and getting bounced around departments. > > Jason Szumlanski > > * > > * > > > On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 9:50 PM Mark Frye > wrote: > > The most important thing here is that no one is standing up to > sing the praises of either SMA or Outback. > > I myself have sent about 2 hours on hold over 2 days trying to get > an issue addressed by SMA. > > Re: Sol-Arc I would pay a lot extra or take some not so good > aspect in exchange for good technical support. > > On 9/9/2020 1:12 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> Any tips on combining AC output from these units when stacking >> several of them? What bus/OCPD system are you using? Same >> question for generator/grid input. >> >> The solar MPPT inputs appear to be dead simple. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> * >> >> * >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM MiJo Nels >> > >> wrote: >> >> we've found SolArk to be SOLID!! .. And yes 8 inv yield about >> 96kW, with a TON of surge capabilities.. >> >> Joe Nelson >> >> Project Manager C-46/C-10 >> Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation >> >> CSL# 868816 >> www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com >> >> 530-273-4422 (Office) >> >> 530-217-8385 (Cell) >> >>  >> >>     >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches >> > > on behalf >> of pgiroux at mindspring.com >> > >> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:24:03 PM >> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > > >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or >> other? >> >> I also suggest the Sol-Ark 12’s. Extremely efficient, simple >> to program, does a wonderful job in either ac coupling, stand >> alone or pure off grid and terrific customer support. >> >> Peter Giroux >> >> ASAE >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches > > *On >> Behalf Of *Bryan Norkunas >> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:50 PM >> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > > >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or >> other? >> >> Sol-Arks would be possible, you can link 8 inverters. >> >> *Bryan * >> >> *PV-Cables* >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches >> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf >> Of *Chris Schaefer >> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 10:40 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or >> other? >> >> I'd suggest giving the crew at Sol-Ark a quick call @ >> 972-575-8875 with their 12kw unit. Not sure what their max >> number of inverters are. >> >> Christopher >> >> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:14 PM Kienan Maxfield >> > > wrote: >> >> Hey all, I'm designing a microgrid sized off-grid system >> for somebody, and I'm just wondering if anyone knows of >> any issues with the following designs... >> >> The client says he needs 70 kW. His load data looks >> pretty solid, so I'm sticking to using that number as a >> minimum, at least during the initial proposal stage. I >> only know of two possible equipment options for this size >> range... >> >> 1. I think I can use up to 10 Outback Radians, for up to >> an 80 kW system. Are there any bugs or problems with >> using this many inverters on one hub? I know I've >> read about issues with selling to the grid, but >> that's not an issue, this is off-grid. >> 2. I know that the SMA cluster box with sunny islands >> can allow for up to a 72 kW system. Do you know of >> any bugs or problems with this system? >> >> Are there any other options that anyone would suggest? >> Schneider's website says they can only do up to 61 kW, >> and Victron can only do up to 60 kW. >> >> I know that the Outback system would yield a 240/120 >> Split-Phase system and that the SMA would yield a 208/120 >> 3Ø system, but this doesn't really matter either way for >> this job. >> >> Thanks so much, >> >> Kienan >> >> *Maxfield Solar* >> >> *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* >> >> >> *(801) 631-5584 (Cell)*** >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> Image removed by sender. >> >> /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >> //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> www.solarandwindfx.com >> >> ~ E-mail: //chris at solarandwindfx.com >> / >> >> /Image removed by sender./ >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once >> said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from >> those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> >> >> Virus-free. www.avg.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 846 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 933 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 70 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Thu Sep 10 14:12:31 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:12:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? In-Reply-To: References: <021901d68608$89caadb0$9d600910$@pv-cables.com> <003401d6861d$fe74f660$fb5ee320$@mindspring.com> <98687ab7-a3b0-b611-ab9d-59a5bf61197e@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <6bd33d24-3f7e-1ee4-6654-ad2c5b9b9af6@villagepowerdesign.com> Yea I'm wondering the easiest way to get a 125 AMP Midnite Inverter Bypass assembly in a simple box for 2 Sol-Arks.  Midnite would be the perfect candidate for a simple support box (e-panel style) for Stacked Sol-Arks. Any ideas? Thanks, Jeff Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 9/10/20 9:37 AM: > > In an all in one, the good parts are balanced,  sometimes,  by a small > failure making the all in one useless. Only a complete spare will save > the day, or night...Also wonder about real world surge capacity on 1 > hp pumps and big air compressors. > > I am glad to hear that they will be making this in Texas, rather than > currently only in China. Anyone have more on this please? > > AC bypass switching is a must for SolArk. They need a PDP or some way > to make this easier. The dual mppts are perfect for virtual tracking. > I begged for a dual mppt on the new Schneider high voltage 100a mppt :( > > I wish them good luck and take back most of my concerns. Hope they can > make it! > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:44:36 -0400, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > >> There is a huge distinction in a hybrid inverter that integrates MPPT >> charge control. Eliminating all of the extraneous hardware and >> circuit protection associated with charge controllers is very >> appealing. The 500V input limit is also a game-changer in terms of >> wire size. I'm very interested in this approach. >> On the flip size, an AC Coupled approach is also appealing in a lot >> of circumstances. Since Sol-Ark supports that, too, it's hard to find >> downsides other than their infancy in the industry. >> And for what it's worth, my experience with SMA tech support recently >> has been abysmal. Long hold times and getting bounced around departments. >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 9:50 PM Mark Frye > > wrote: >> >> The most important thing here is that no one is standing up to >> sing the praises of either SMA or Outback. >> >> I myself have sent about 2 hours on hold over 2 days trying to >> get an issue addressed by SMA. >> >> Re: Sol-Arc I would pay a lot extra or take some not so good >> aspect in exchange for good technical support. >> >> On 9/9/2020 1:12 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> Any tips on combining AC output from these units when stacking >>> several of them? What bus/OCPD system are you using? Same >>> question for generator/grid input. >>> The solar MPPT inputs appear to be dead simple. >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM MiJo Nels >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> we've found SolArk to be SOLID!! .. And yes 8 inv yield >>> about 96kW, with a TON of surge capabilities.. >>> Joe Nelson >>> Project Manager C-46/C-10 >>> Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation >>> CSL# 868816 >>> www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com >>> >>> 530-273-4422 (Office) >>> 530-217-8385 (Cell) >>>  >>>     >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *From:* RE-wrenches >>> >> > on >>> behalf of pgiroux at mindspring.com >>> >> > >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:24:03 PM >>> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >> > >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or >>> other? >>> >>> I also suggest the Sol-Ark 12's. Extremely efficient, simple >>> to program, does a wonderful job in either ac coupling, >>> stand alone or pure off grid and terrific customer support. >>> >>> Peter Giroux >>> >>> ASAE >>> >>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>> >> > *On >>> Behalf Of *Bryan Norkunas >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:50 PM >>> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >> > >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or >>> other? >>> >>> Sol-Arks would be possible, you can link 8 inverters. >>> >>> *Bryan * >>> >>> *PV-Cables* >>> >>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>> Behalf Of *Chris Schaefer >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 10:40 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or >>> other? >>> >>> I'd suggest giving the crew at Sol-Ark a quick call @ >>> 972-575-8875 with their 12kw unit. Not sure what their max >>> number of inverters are. >>> >>> Christopher >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:14 PM Kienan Maxfield >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> Hey all, I'm designing a microgrid sized off-grid system >>> for somebody, and I'm just wondering if anyone knows of >>> any issues with the following designs... >>> >>> The client says he needs 70 kW. His load data looks >>> pretty solid, so I'm sticking to using that number as a >>> minimum, at least during the initial proposal stage. I >>> only know of two possible equipment options for this >>> size range... >>> >>> 1. I think I can use up to 10 Outback Radians, for up >>> to an 80 kW system. Are there any bugs or problems >>> with using this many inverters on one hub? I know >>> I've read about issues with selling to the grid, but >>> that's not an issue, this is off-grid. >>> 2. I know that the SMA cluster box with sunny islands >>> can allow for up to a 72 kW system. Do you know of >>> any bugs or problems with this system? >>> >>> Are there any other options that anyone would suggest? >>> Schneider's website says they can only do up to 61 kW, >>> and Victron can only do up to 60 kW. >>> >>> I know that the Outback system would yield a 240/120 >>> Split-Phase system and that the SMA would yield a >>> 208/120 3Ø system, but this doesn't really matter either >>> way for this job. >>> >>> Thanks so much, >>> >>> Kienan >>> >>> *Maxfield Solar* >>> >>> *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* >>> >>> >>> *(801) 631-5584 (Cell)* >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Chris Schaefer's >>> Image removed by sender. >>> >>> /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >>> //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>> www.solarandwindfx.com >>> >>> ~ E-mail: //chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> / >>> >>> /Image removed by sender./ >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once >>> said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away >>> from those who are willing to work and give to those who >>> would not." >>> >>> >>> >>> Virus-free. www.avg.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 70 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Sep 10 14:30:52 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:30:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Microgrid=2E=2E=2E_Outback_or_SMA_or_oth?= =?utf-8?b?ZXI/?= In-Reply-To: <6bd33d24-3f7e-1ee4-6654-ad2c5b9b9af6@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <021901d68608$89caadb0$9d600910$@pv-cables.com> <003401d6861d$fe74f660$fb5ee320$@mindspring.com> <98687ab7-a3b0-b611-ab9d-59a5bf61197e@berkeleysolar.com> <6bd33d24-3f7e-1ee4-6654-ad2c5b9b9af6@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <778e26c1dadb1b1eab4a33ade6594321@127.0.0.1> I am confused by the 2 different Sol Ark systems. The large one looks like it has a DC disco/breaker and a solar disco. The smaller solark looks like it has a DC breaker only. Any guidance on what else is needed to make these useable please? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:12:31 -0700, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Yea I'm wondering the easiest way to get a 125 AMP Midnite Inverter Bypass assembly in a simple box for 2 Sol-Arks. Midnite would be the perfect candidate for a simple support box (e-panel style) for Stacked Sol-Arks. Any ideas? Thanks, Jeff Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 9/10/20 9:37 AM: In an all in one, the good parts are balanced, sometimes, by a small failure making the all in one useless. Only a complete spare will save the day, or night...Also wonder about real world surge capacity on 1 hp pumps and big air compressors. I am glad to hear that they will be making this in Texas, rather than currently only in China. Anyone have more on this please? AC bypass switching is a must for SolArk. They need a PDP or some way to make this easier. The dual mppts are perfect for virtual tracking. I begged for a dual mppt on the new Schneider high voltage 100a mppt :( I wish them good luck and take back most of my concerns. Hope they can make it! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [4] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:44:36 -0400, Jason Szumlanski [5] wrote: There is a huge distinction in a hybrid inverter that integrates MPPT charge control. Eliminating all of the extraneous hardware and circuit protection associated with charge controllers is very appealing. The 500V input limit is also a game-changer in terms of wire size. I'm very interested in this approach. On the flip size, an AC Coupled approach is also appealing in a lot of circumstances. Since Sol-Ark supports that, too, it's hard to find downsides other than their infancy in the industry. And for what it's worth, my experience with SMA tech support recently has been abysmal. Long hold times and getting bounced around departments. Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 9:50 PM Mark Frye wrote: The most important thing here is that no one is standing up to sing the praises of either SMA or Outback. I myself have sent about 2 hours on hold over 2 days trying to get an issue addressed by SMA. Re: Sol-Arc I would pay a lot extra or take some not so good aspect in exchange for good technical support. On 9/9/2020 1:12 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Any tips on combining AC output from these units when stacking several of them? What bus/OCPD system are you using? Same question for generator/grid input. The solar MPPT inputs appear to be dead simple. Jason Szumlanski On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM MiJo Nels wrote: we've found SolArk to be SOLID!! .. And yes 8 inv yield about 96kW, with a TON of surge capabilities.. Joe Nelson Project Manager C-46/C-10 Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation CSL# 868816 www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com [8] 530-273-4422 (Office) 530-217-8385 (Cell)      ------------------------- FROM: RE-wrenches on behalf of pgiroux at mindspring.com [10] SENT: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:24:03 PM TO: 'RE-wrenches' SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? I also suggest the Sol-Ark 12's. Extremely efficient, simple to program, does a wonderful job in either ac coupling, stand alone or pure off grid and terrific customer support. Peter Giroux ASAE FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Bryan Norkunas SENT: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:50 PM TO: 'RE-wrenches' SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? Sol-Arks would be possible, you can link 8 inverters. BRYAN PV-CABLES FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [15]] ON BEHALF OF Chris Schaefer SENT: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 10:40 AM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? I'd suggest giving the crew at Sol-Ark a quick call @ 972-575-8875 with their 12kw unit. Not sure what their max number of inverters are. Christopher On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:14 PM Kienan Maxfield wrote: Hey all, I'm designing a microgrid sized off-grid system for somebody, and I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any issues with the following designs... The client says he needs 70 kW. His load data looks pretty solid, so I'm sticking to using that number as a minimum, at least during the initial proposal stage. I only know of two possible equipment options for this size range... * I think I can use up to 10 Outback Radians, for up to an 80 kW system. Are there any bugs or problems with using this many inverters on one hub? I know I've read about issues with selling to the grid, but that's not an issue, this is off-grid. * I know that the SMA cluster box with sunny islands can allow for up to a 72 kW system. Do you know of any bugs or problems with this system? Are there any other options that anyone would suggest? Schneider's website says they can only do up to 61 kW, and Victron can only do up to 60 kW. I know that the Outback system would yield a 240/120 Split-Phase system and that the SMA would yield a 208/120 3Ø system, but this doesn't really matter either way for this job. Thanks so much, Kienan MAXFIELD SOLAR MAXFIELDSOLAR at HOTMAIL.COM [17] (801) 631-5584 (CELL) _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [18] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] List rules font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: #1f497d;">Chris Schaefer's Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com [24] ~ E-mail: _chris at solarandwindfx.com [25]_ _Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." [26] Virus-free. www.avg.com [27] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [28] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [29] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [30] List rules " src="https://webmail.sti.net/tuxedo/?_task=mail&_action=display-attachment&_file=rcmfile11599762350034576900" alt="" name="image.png" width="0" height="0" /> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [33] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [34] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [35] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [36] Check out or update participant bios: 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URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 846 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 933 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 200 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 70 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Sep 10 16:32:32 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 16:32:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? In-Reply-To: References: <021901d68608$89caadb0$9d600910$@pv-cables.com> <003401d6861d$fe74f660$fb5ee320$@mindspring.com> <98687ab7-a3b0-b611-ab9d-59a5bf61197e@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Related question, Jeff... With the Sol-Ark, I an off-grid situation can you set it up to always use inveters to power loads. In other words, when the generator kicks in, only use the generator to charge batteries and do not bypass inveters to power loads directly from the generator. This is a request I get occasionally. People don't want to rely on the "dirty" generator power with sensitive electronics. Jason On Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 1:19 PM Jeff Clearwater wrote: > I'm loving my first install of Sol Arks - One downside of Sol-Ark (and I > can't find many!) is that the GEN terminal can only handle 1 of the > following 3: Generator, AC Coupling, or Smart Load. So if you want both a > generator and AC coupling you have to either do a separate transfer switch > for the GEN and not run it through the inverters - or you have to go with > their internal DC MPPTif you do want the GEN to charge the batteries > (unless you are off-grid totally and have no Grid in which case you might > be able to run the Generator into Grid? not sure about that - don't quote > me!). > > Anyone else with any downsides? > > Best, > > Jeff > > > > Jason Szumlanski wrote on 9/10/20 4:44 AM: > > There is a huge distinction in a hybrid inverter that integrates MPPT > charge control. Eliminating all of the extraneous hardware and circuit > protection associated with charge controllers is very appealing. The 500V > input limit is also a game-changer in terms of wire size. I'm very > interested in this approach. > > On the flip size, an AC Coupled approach is also appealing in a lot of > circumstances. Since Sol-Ark supports that, too, it's hard to find > downsides other than their infancy in the industry. > > And for what it's worth, my experience with SMA tech support recently has > been abysmal. Long hold times and getting bounced around departments. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 9:50 PM Mark Frye wrote: > >> The most important thing here is that no one is standing up to sing the >> praises of either SMA or Outback. >> >> I myself have sent about 2 hours on hold over 2 days trying to get an >> issue addressed by SMA. >> >> Re: Sol-Arc I would pay a lot extra or take some not so good aspect in >> exchange for good technical support. >> On 9/9/2020 1:12 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> >> Any tips on combining AC output from these units when stacking several of >> them? What bus/OCPD system are you using? Same question for generator/grid >> input. >> >> The solar MPPT inputs appear to be dead simple. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM MiJo Nels >> wrote: >> >>> we've found SolArk to be SOLID!! .. And yes 8 inv yield about 96kW, with >>> a TON of surge capabilities.. >>> >>> Joe Nelson >>> >>> Project Manager C-46/C-10 >>> Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation >>> >>> CSL# 868816 >>> www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com >>> >>> 530-273-4422 (Office) >>> >>> 530-217-8385 (Cell) >>> >>>  >>> >>>     >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>> behalf of pgiroux at mindspring.com >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:24:03 PM >>> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? >>> >>> >>> I also suggest the Sol-Ark 12’s. Extremely efficient, simple to program, >>> does a wonderful job in either ac coupling, stand alone or pure off grid >>> and terrific customer support. >>> >>> >>> >>> Peter Giroux >>> >>> ASAE >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>> Behalf Of *Bryan Norkunas >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:50 PM >>> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? >>> >>> >>> >>> Sol-Arks would be possible, you can link 8 inverters. >>> >>> >>> >>> *Bryan * >>> >>> *PV-Cables* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> ] *On Behalf Of *Chris >>> Schaefer >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 10:40 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? >>> >>> >>> >>> I'd suggest giving the crew at Sol-Ark a quick call @ 972-575-8875 with >>> their 12kw unit. Not sure what their max number of inverters are. >>> >>> >>> >>> Christopher >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:14 PM Kienan Maxfield < >>> maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Hey all, I'm designing a microgrid sized off-grid system for somebody, >>> and I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any issues with the following >>> designs... >>> >>> >>> >>> The client says he needs 70 kW. His load data looks pretty solid, so I'm >>> sticking to using that number as a minimum, at least during the initial >>> proposal stage. I only know of two possible equipment options for this size >>> range... >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. I think I can use up to 10 Outback Radians, for up to an 80 kW >>> system. Are there any bugs or problems with using this many inverters on >>> one hub? I know I've read about issues with selling to the grid, but that's >>> not an issue, this is off-grid. >>> 2. I know that the SMA cluster box with sunny islands can allow for >>> up to a 72 kW system. Do you know of any bugs or problems with this system? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Are there any other options that anyone would suggest? Schneider's >>> website says they can only do up to 61 kW, and Victron can only do up to 60 >>> kW. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I know that the Outback system would yield a 240/120 Split-Phase system >>> and that the SMA would yield a 208/120 3Ø system, but this doesn't really >>> matter either way for this job. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks so much, >>> >>> Kienan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Maxfield Solar* >>> >>> *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* >>> >>> *(801) 631-5584 (Cell)* >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Chris Schaefer’s >>> [image: Image removed by sender.] >>> >>> >>> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >>> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>> www.solarandwindfx.com >>> >>> ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com * >>> >>> *[image: Image removed by sender.]* >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >>> willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> >>> >>> Virus-free. >>> www.avg.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > VillageLab > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagelab.net > www.villagepowerdesign.com > skype - jclearwater > zoom by request > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 846 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 933 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: lbjlgfkjghelnohl.gif Type: image/gif Size: 42 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 933 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Thu Sep 10 20:33:15 2020 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 00:33:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? In-Reply-To: <778e26c1dadb1b1eab4a33ade6594321@127.0.0.1> References: <021901d68608$89caadb0$9d600910$@pv-cables.com> <003401d6861d$fe74f660$fb5ee320$@mindspring.com> <98687ab7-a3b0-b611-ab9d-59a5bf61197e@berkeleysolar.com> <6bd33d24-3f7e-1ee4-6654-ad2c5b9b9af6@villagepowerdesign.com> <778e26c1dadb1b1eab4a33ade6594321@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <1100770998.2822041.1599784395653@mail.yahoo.com> Hi folks--We've just finished our first dual 12kW Sol-Ark install (replacing a Fronius 10kW from 10 years ago) and I have a few comments on  the recent questions. First, Sol-Ark started with a frustrating manual, but they are improving. To address Dave's question, the on-line manual for the 8k is August 2019 and the 12k is August 2020. The latest Sol-Ark manual shows fuses on both legs of the pv, but this is something you'll have to provide outside the inverter. The pv inputs for the inverters are terminals only, no over current protection.  For NEC 2014, Sol-Ark says and we agreed, that if the mppt inputs are limited to two strings, there is no need for over current protection, depending on the current output of the modules. But, I understand this is a gray area and in matters of code, I am often wrong. We piped the pv to midget fuses on a din rail in boxes outside the inverters. Jeff mentioned using the Midnite 125 bypass. Each Sol-Ark inverter output is limited to 33A off grid and 37.5A on grid, so any 100a bypass switch would work for two Sol-Arks. Wish I would have know about the Midnite. We went with the Reliance TCA1010D, but it costs more and there is little room for your fingers, much less the wire. We ended up adding a nice size j-box below the Reliance and used Morris connectors (similar to Polaris) to bring the two Sol-Arks together. On the inverters, the pv disconnect is on the bottom of the box, way in the back. This is frustrating, because you can't bring a six or eight inch gutter up to the inverters--you need about 3-4 inches to get a hand in there to reach the disconnect--more time making little pieces of pvc nipples with box adapters and oh, don't forget you have to fit metal conduit for the pv conductors and keep them bundled separately in the gutter. Also wish the conduit knock outs were one size bigger, but old, arthritic fingers are always calling for bigger boxes and conduit. The Sol-Ark wifi dongle connection for the third-party PowerView is also stuck in the back underside and its connections are wiggly. The Sol-Ark service desk has been very good with both responses and wait times. With no charge controller and 500 vdc strings, the Sol-Ark is great. For this install, we used the existing pole-mounted 40 Sharp 240s on four strings and added 36 Trina 380s on the barn roof (four strings of nine). The Sharps went to one inverter and the Trinas the other. Eight Simpliphi 3.8s make up the battery bank. Now, if Sol-Ark will make the move to 600V and move the pv disconnect to the side....More power Scotty. For right now, in the past 13 years, I've run an 120V Outback 3648 at home and it's been trouble free, but when the shoemaker's kids get new shoes, they'll be Sol-Ark. I always appreciate the help and sharing on this list. regards, bill Bill HennessyBerks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com On Thursday, September 10, 2020, 2:30:59 PM EDT, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: I am confused by the 2 different Sol Ark systems. The large one looks like it has a DC disco/breaker and a solar disco. The smaller solark looks like it has a DC breaker only. Any guidance on what else is needed to make these useable please?  Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:12:31 -0700, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Yea I'm wondering the easiest way to get a 125 AMP Midnite Inverter Bypass assembly in a simple box for 2 Sol-Arks.  Midnite would be the perfect candidate for a simple support box (e-panel style) for Stacked Sol-Arks. Any ideas? Thanks, Jeff Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 9/10/20 9:37 AM: In an all in one, the good parts are balanced,  sometimes,  by a small failure making the all in one useless. Only a complete spare will save the day, or night...Also wonder about real world surge capacity on 1 hp pumps and big air compressors. I am glad to hear that they will be making this in Texas, rather than currently only in China. Anyone have more on this please? AC bypass switching is a must for SolArk. They need a PDP or some way to make this easier. The dual mppts are perfect for virtual tracking. I begged for a dual mppt on the new Schneider high voltage 100a mppt :( I wish them good luck and take back most of my concerns. Hope they can make it!   Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:44:36 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote:  There is a huge distinction in a hybrid inverter that integrates MPPT charge control. Eliminating all of the extraneous hardware and circuit protection associated with charge controllers is very appealing. The 500V input limit is also a game-changer in terms of wire size. I'm very interested in this approach. On the flip size, an AC Coupled approach is also appealing in a lot of circumstances. Since Sol-Ark supports that, too, it's hard to find downsides other than their infancy in the industry. And for what it's worth, my experience with SMA tech support recently has been abysmal. Long hold times and getting bounced around departments. Jason Szumlanski  On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 9:50 PM Mark Frye wrote: The most important thing here is that no one is standing up to sing the praises of either SMA or Outback. I myself have sent about 2 hours on hold over 2 days trying to get an issue addressed by SMA. Re: Sol-Arc I would pay a lot extra or take some not so good aspect in exchange for good technical support. On 9/9/2020 1:12 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Any tips on combining AC output from these units when stacking several of them? What bus/OCPD system are you using? Same question for generator/grid input.  The solar MPPT inputs appear to be dead simple. Jason Szumlanski  |   | | |   |   |   | | |   On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM MiJo Nels wrote: we've found SolArk to be SOLID!! .. And yes 8 inv yield about 96kW, with a TON of surge capabilities.. Joe NelsonProject Manager C-46/C-10Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California CorporationCSL# 868816www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com530-273-4422 (Office)530-217-8385 (Cell)   From: RE-wrenches on behalf of pgiroux at mindspring.com Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:24:03 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?  I also suggest the Sol-Ark 12's. Extremely efficient, simple to program, does a wonderful job in either ac coupling, stand alone or pure off grid and terrific customer support.   Peter Giroux ASAE   From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Bryan Norkunas Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:50 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?   Sol-Arks would be possible, you can link 8 inverters.   Bryan PV-Cables             From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 10:40 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?   I'd suggest giving the crew at Sol-Ark a quick call @ 972-575-8875 with their 12kw unit. Not sure what their max number of inverters are.   Christopher   On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:14 PM Kienan Maxfield wrote: Hey all, I'm designing a microgrid sized off-grid system for somebody, and I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any issues with the following designs...    The client says he needs 70 kW. His load data looks pretty solid, so I'm sticking to using that number as a minimum, at least during the initial proposal stage. I only know of two possible equipment options for this size range...   - I think I can use up to 10 Outback Radians, for up to an 80 kW system. Are there any bugs or problems with using this many inverters on one hub? I know I've read about issues with selling to the grid, but that's not an issue, this is off-grid. - I know that the SMA cluster box with sunny islands can allow for up to a 72 kW system. Do you know of any bugs or problems with this system?     Are there any other options that anyone would suggest? Schneider's website says they can only do up to 61 kW, and Victron can only do up to 60 kW.     I know that the Outback system would yield a 240/120 Split-Phase system and that the SMA would yield a 208/120 3Ø system, but this doesn't really matter either way for this job.    Thanks so much, Kienan     Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org     -- Chris Schaefer's Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870  5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." | | Virus-free. www.avg.com | _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 846 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 200 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 846 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 200 bytes Desc: not available URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Thu Sep 10 21:57:00 2020 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 18:57:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Admin posting: Sol-Ark on list Message-ID: <1599789432188.7f35acdc65fcbdb7@re-wrenches.org> Hi gang. If you have any questions or comments, please send them to me off-list. I've had several of you suggest to me off-list that Sol-Ark should have a manufacturer's representative on the list. I agree. On 8/28, one of their employees requested to be added. I responded with my standard spiel but haven't heard back yet. Sometimes it takes awhile for companies to decide who should be the rep, I just want to make sure they are solid technically and not there to do promotion or marketing. I don't know if that person intends to follow through, though. I'm open to suggestions about who to invite, but it's ultimately up to their tech dept. to decide who they want. Whomever is OK with me as long as they fit our criteria for manufacturers' reps, and their company is OK with that person. From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Thu Sep 10 23:32:18 2020 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (MiJo Nels) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 03:32:18 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Admin posting: Sol-Ark on list In-Reply-To: <1599789432188.7f35acdc65fcbdb7@re-wrenches.org> References: <1599789432188.7f35acdc65fcbdb7@re-wrenches.org> Message-ID: Tom Brennen is their founding engineer and my absolute favorite person's brain to pick.. I strongly suggest he speak on their(technical) behalf.. 👍 Joe Nelson Project Manager C-46/C-10 Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation CSL# 868816 www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com 530-273-4422 (Office) 530-217-8385 (Cell)      ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Michael Welch Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2020 6:57:00 PM To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Admin posting: Sol-Ark on list Hi gang. If you have any questions or comments, please send them to me off-list. I've had several of you suggest to me off-list that Sol-Ark should have a manufacturer's representative on the list. I agree. On 8/28, one of their employees requested to be added. I responded with my standard spiel but haven't heard back yet. Sometimes it takes awhile for companies to decide who should be the rep, I just want to make sure they are solid technically and not there to do promotion or marketing. I don't know if that person intends to follow through, though. I'm open to suggestions about who to invite, but it's ultimately up to their tech dept. to decide who they want. Whomever is OK with me as long as they fit our criteria for manufacturers' reps, and their company is OK with that person. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at nunatakenergy.com Fri Sep 11 09:06:18 2020 From: jay at nunatakenergy.com (Jay Pozner) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 07:06:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] South west whisper 100/200 controller Message-ID: Hi all, I am trying to track down a Southwest wind whisper 100/200 controller. If anyone has one they want to sell at a reasonable price, please contact me off the list. Thanks Jay Pozner (970) 642-5554 www.nunatakenergy.com NABCEP Certified PV Installer: Cert.#031310-177 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Fri Sep 11 11:00:50 2020 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 15:00:50 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika Support by chance? Message-ID: If anyone has any info on how to get a hold of The former PIKA ENERGY support group, please contact me off list. Or if anyone knows where one could get one of their inverters rebuilt/repaired let me know. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bryan at pv-cables.com Fri Sep 11 12:09:23 2020 From: Bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 09:09:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Admin posting: Sol-Ark on list In-Reply-To: <1599789432188.7f35acdc65fcbdb7@re-wrenches.org> References: <1599789432188.7f35acdc65fcbdb7@re-wrenches.org> Message-ID: <005201d68855$eb6f35a0$c24da0e0$@pv-cables.com> Always been curious, why limit to only one rep per OEM? Bryan Norkunas bryan at pv-cables.com PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Michael Welch Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2020 6:57 PM To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Admin posting: Sol-Ark on list Hi gang. If you have any questions or comments, please send them to me off-list. I've had several of you suggest to me off-list that Sol-Ark should have a manufacturer's representative on the list. I agree. On 8/28, one of their employees requested to be added. I responded with my standard spiel but haven't heard back yet. Sometimes it takes awhile for companies to decide who should be the rep, I just want to make sure they are solid technically and not there to do promotion or marketing. I don't know if that person intends to follow through, though. I'm open to suggestions about who to invite, but it's ultimately up to their tech dept. to decide who they want. Whomever is OK with me as long as they fit our criteria for manufacturers' reps, and their company is OK with that person. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From chris at solarandwindfx.com Fri Sep 11 12:58:08 2020 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 12:58:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika Support by chance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeremy, Pika was bought out by Generac and rebranded as their PWR cell. Most of the old crew from Pika are now working for Generac. It's beyond me that Generac bought them and yet they still don't have a generator input. That's why I could never sign on to the Pika product line. Good luck. Christopher On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:00 AM Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > If anyone has any info on how to get a hold of The former PIKA ENERGY > support group, please contact me off list. > Or if anyone knows where one could get one of their inverters > rebuilt/repaired let me know. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Sep 11 14:39:51 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 14:39:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika Support by chance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We are seeing tons of companies in Florida offering Generac/Pika now. They didn't do it when it was Pika, so why would they now that it has an orange label? Crazy. No generator input makes zero sense and even less sense for a generator manufacturer. On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:58 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: > Jeremy, > Pika was bought out by Generac and rebranded as their PWR cell. Most of > the old crew from Pika are now working for Generac. It's beyond me that > Generac bought them and yet they still don't have a generator input. That's > why I could never sign on to the Pika product line. Good luck. > > Christopher > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:00 AM Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: > >> If anyone has any info on how to get a hold of The former PIKA ENERGY >> support group, please contact me off list. >> Or if anyone knows where one could get one of their inverters >> rebuilt/repaired let me know. >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design Expert >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1463 M St >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Sep 11 15:01:27 2020 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 15:01:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika Support by chance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: THe reason they are offering it is probably that they already were Generac dealers so adding this was an easy addition. Also, Generac is marketing heavily to dealers now. On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 2:52 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > We are seeing tons of companies in Florida offering Generac/Pika now. They > didn't do it when it was Pika, so why would they now that it has an orange > label? Crazy. > > No generator input makes zero sense and even less sense for a generator > manufacturer. > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:58 PM Chris Schaefer > wrote: > >> Jeremy, >> Pika was bought out by Generac and rebranded as their PWR cell. Most of >> the old crew from Pika are now working for Generac. It's beyond me that >> Generac bought them and yet they still don't have a generator input. That's >> why I could never sign on to the Pika product line. Good luck. >> >> Christopher >> >> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:00 AM Jeremy Rodriguez >> wrote: >> >>> If anyone has any info on how to get a hold of The former PIKA ENERGY >>> support group, please contact me off list. >>> Or if anyone knows where one could get one of their inverters >>> rebuilt/repaired let me know. >>> >>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>> Solar Installation / Design Expert >>> All Solar, Inc. >>> 1463 M St >>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>> >>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >> >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Sep 11 15:16:09 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 15:16:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Getting Enphase IQ Cable into J Boxes Message-ID: Just a quick tip for those of you installing Enphase. I recently discovered there is a Heyco connector for TWO Enphase IQ cables and a bare ground in a single 3/4" knockout. This has saved us a bunch of time. The rubber gland is prepunched, but you can also use it for a single IQ cable since it is not punched all the way through. Part number is M3234GDA-SM, available through Mouser, Rexel, anyone who sells Heyco I would imagine. [image: image.png] Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 62008 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Bryan at pv-cables.com Fri Sep 11 15:48:43 2020 From: Bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 12:48:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Getting Enphase IQ Cable into J Boxes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01bc01d68874$8ed7cea0$ac876be0$@pv-cables.com> M3231GCZ-SM is the part number for the ½” version, Though the ½” version only accepting a single 12/2 tray cable with bare ground. We see a bigger demand for the ½ vs the ¾” Bryan Norkunas bryan at pv-cables.com Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140 PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com Description: Description: cid:image002.jpg at 01CD22E8.974B6470 Please print only if necessary. NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Friday, September 11, 2020 12:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Getting Enphase IQ Cable into J Boxes Just a quick tip for those of you installing Enphase. I recently discovered there is a Heyco connector for TWO Enphase IQ cables and a bare ground in a single 3/4" knockout. This has saved us a bunch of time. The rubber gland is prepunched, but you can also use it for a single IQ cable since it is not punched all the way through. Part number is M3234GDA-SM, available through Mouser, Rexel, anyone who sells Heyco I would imagine. image.png Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group Image removed by sender. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 27561 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1367 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 62008 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Sep 11 16:01:24 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 13:01:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika Support by chance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In CA the market for ESS is primarily grid tied support features driven by SGIP + backup (public safety power shutoffs, folks who live in less stable grid areas, folks worried about natural disasters) so the ESS is designed to replace generators. This might be a little trickier for areas that need air conditioning during a grid outage (or for all electric homes), but one tactic is just to go bigger with the ESS and PV system. I guess what I'm saying is that the value proposition might already be getting better just to skip the generator and go bigger with the storage. Even Generac might be going that route. August On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:52 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > We are seeing tons of companies in Florida offering Generac/Pika now. They > didn't do it when it was Pika, so why would they now that it has an orange > label? Crazy. > > No generator input makes zero sense and even less sense for a generator > manufacturer. > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:58 PM Chris Schaefer > wrote: > >> Jeremy, >> Pika was bought out by Generac and rebranded as their PWR cell. Most of >> the old crew from Pika are now working for Generac. It's beyond me that >> Generac bought them and yet they still don't have a generator input. That's >> why I could never sign on to the Pika product line. Good luck. >> >> Christopher >> >> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:00 AM Jeremy Rodriguez >> wrote: >> >>> If anyone has any info on how to get a hold of The former PIKA ENERGY >>> support group, please contact me off list. >>> Or if anyone knows where one could get one of their inverters >>> rebuilt/repaired let me know. >>> >>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>> Solar Installation / Design Expert >>> All Solar, Inc. >>> 1463 M St >>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>> >>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >> >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri Sep 11 17:34:38 2020 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 14:34:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika Support by chance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: August,             Quite frankly and with due respect about the comment about more PV and battery to forego the need for a generator, I disagree. Those folks living off-grid in the sticks (um,er, myself included), it would be a very bad thing not to have Gen input. The current situation here in Plumas county  (and many other counties right now) is another perfect example.  It is so smokey that my daily KWhrs has been cut in half and of course every other off-grid home is having the same issue. This has been going on for almost a month with only occasional breaks.  There are also CC failures, FET board craps out, other excrement occurs.             We all know there are many critical needs for power especially to run a pump for fire protection, frig for food, communication to know what the hell may coming your way during some event (fire, flood, bad weather) medical needs, etc.  In the winter there are at least a few times when there is little or no sun for 1 maybe 2 weeks...that gets to be a spendy array and battery.  Certainly, the idea of going that route works for some scenarios but not off-grid.  Generators are still a much needed necessary evil.  Maybe its a big deal to incorporate that feature in an inverter??  Sounds like bean counting. My $.02 worth Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 9/11/2020 1:01 PM, August Goers wrote: > In CA the market for ESS is primarily grid tied support features > driven by SGIP + backup (public safety power shutoffs, folks who live > in less stable grid areas, folks worried about natural disasters) so > the ESS is designed to replace generators. This might be a little > trickier for areas that need air conditioning during a grid outage (or > for all electric homes), but one tactic is just to go bigger with the > ESS and PV system. I guess what I'm saying is that the value > proposition might already be getting better just to skip the generator > and go bigger with the storage. Even Generac might be going that route. > > August > > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:52 AM Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > We are seeing tons of companies in Florida offering Generac/Pika > now. They didn't do it when it was Pika, so why would they now > that it has an orange label? Crazy. > > No generator input makes zero sense and even less sense for a > generator manufacturer. > > * > > > * > > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:58 PM Chris Schaefer > > wrote: > > Jeremy, > Pika was bought out by Generac and rebranded as their PWR > cell. Most of the old crew from Pika are now working for > Generac. It's beyond me that Generac bought them and yet they > still don't have a generator input. That's why I could never > sign on to the Pika product line. Good luck. > > Christopher > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:00 AM Jeremy Rodriguez > > wrote: > > If anyone has any info on how to get a hold of The former > PIKA ENERGY support group, please contact me off list. > Or if anyone knows where one could get one of their > inverters rebuilt/repaired let me know. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Sep 11 17:36:51 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 14:36:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Pika_Support_by_chance=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would just add that the reason there is a generator input, is for when wildfire smoke, winter storms, and damage to the solar power system occurs. More solar/storage might not do much good when smoke drops the solar output by 80%. My business can't use SGIP for obvious reasons. PG ">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 13:01:24 -0700, August Goers wrote: In CA the market for ESS is primarily grid tied support features driven by SGIP + backup (public safety power shutoffs, folks who live in less stable grid areas, folks worried about natural disasters) so the ESS is designed to replace generators. This might be a little trickier for areas that need air conditioning during a grid outage (or for all electric homes), but one tactic is just to go bigger with the ESS and PV system. I guess what I'm saying is that the value proposition might already be getting better just to skip the generator and go bigger with the storage. Even Generac might be going that route. August On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:52 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: We are seeing tons of companies in Florida offering Generac/Pika now. They didn't do it when it was Pika, so why would they now that it has an orange label? Crazy. No generator input makes zero sense and even less sense for a generator manufacturer. On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:58 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: Jeremy, Pika was bought out by Generac and rebranded as their PWR cell. Most of the old crew from Pika are now working for Generac. It's beyond me that Generac bought them and yet they still don't have a generator input. That's why I could never sign on to the Pika product line. Good luck. Christopher On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:00 AM Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: If anyone has any info on how to get a hold of The former PIKA ENERGY support group, please contact me off list. Or if anyone knows where one could get one of their inverters rebuilt/repaired let me know. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List rules color: #1f497d;">Chris Schaefer's Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 _www.solarandwindfx.com [12] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [13]_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] List rules " src="https://webmail.sti.net/tuxedo/?_task=mail&_action=display-attachment&_file=rcmfile11599859230020214100" alt="" width="0" height="0" /> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [19] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [21] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [22] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [23] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com [4] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com [5] mailto:allsolarjeremy at msn.com [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/e69f5e66f85b00623fe3bc4a7d8b4ef86c3539fd?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=5383494ae5eefad0 [8] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/95c429f491b4d68bc72a8a21d211bd4e208790cf?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=00fc1444185c0f27 [9] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/f263dc989212053d38400655bc581efaf9aefee3?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=c78537d3ac0fa961 [10] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/13866bceac49409dfc642ba679958ebacf3fd6fe?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=d265540fb7bfc5b1 [11] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/3d3dc22e74ef49047bd40522641b0e079a8cf003?url=http%3Awww.solarandwindfx.com&userId=1613865&signature=3cfb0a5c0c593f73 [12] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/58b878c9cd6b51c18d243fb736ab5661c45ab6c1?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.solarandwindfx.com&userId=1613865&signature=85ac93338d7ee1e7 [13] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com [14] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/71848a4ee937f3b8b7feeec90029139b7fa56122?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=9a7ba8233083aa48 [16] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/3d6a7ba719de4a43822ae1f1c2739af9bbef65b5?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=a3f0ea14ff0c510c [17] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/e62a68e7225bcec22a15519b46a2a9546bfb4f96?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=5bec5eb0fd801304 [18] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/13e909a7b04438be17bbc4153407025453b436e8?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=832303a12a25425f [19] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [20] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [21] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [22] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [23] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Sep 11 18:05:59 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 15:05:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika Support by chance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bill - I completely agree with your statement about all off-grid applications. Most if not all need generators. And, I do think there are some grid tied applications where generators make sense too, especially for folks who live way out in the woods as you mention. I was speaking about the mass market in CA in cities or towns where the grid is typically fairly reliable. If you install four Powerwalls, for example, you have up to 54 kWh of storage available. There are applications where generators make sense, and all these fires and smoke and heat waves prove the point. I think AC is critical for some parts of the country, and energy storage + PV alone just won't cut it for those critical applications. But, yes, good point. August On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 2:33 PM frenergy wrote: > August, > > Quite frankly and with due respect about the comment about > more PV and battery to forego the need for a generator, I disagree. Those > folks living off-grid in the sticks (um,er, myself included), it would be a > very bad thing not to have Gen input. The current situation here in Plumas > county (and many other counties right now) is another perfect example. It > is so smokey that my daily KWhrs has been cut in half and of course every > other off-grid home is having the same issue. This has been going on for > almost a month with only occasional breaks. There are also CC failures, > FET board craps out, other excrement occurs. > > We all know there are many critical needs for power especially > to run a pump for fire protection, frig for food, communication to know > what the hell may coming your way during some event (fire, flood, bad > weather) medical needs, etc. In the winter there are at least a few times > when there is little or no sun for 1 maybe 2 weeks...that gets to be a > spendy array and battery. Certainly, the idea of going that route works > for some scenarios but not off-grid. Generators are still a much needed > necessary evil. Maybe its a big deal to incorporate that feature in an > inverter?? Sounds like bean counting. > > My $.02 worth > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > On 9/11/2020 1:01 PM, August Goers wrote: > > In CA the market for ESS is primarily grid tied support features driven by > SGIP + backup (public safety power shutoffs, folks who live in less stable > grid areas, folks worried about natural disasters) so the ESS is designed > to replace generators. This might be a little trickier for areas that need > air conditioning during a grid outage (or for all electric homes), but one > tactic is just to go bigger with the ESS and PV system. I guess what I'm > saying is that the value proposition might already be getting better just > to skip the generator and go bigger with the storage. Even Generac might be > going that route. > > August > > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:52 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> We are seeing tons of companies in Florida offering Generac/Pika now. >> They didn't do it when it was Pika, so why would they now that it has an >> orange label? Crazy. >> >> No generator input makes zero sense and even less sense for a generator >> manufacturer. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:58 PM Chris Schaefer >> wrote: >> >>> Jeremy, >>> Pika was bought out by Generac and rebranded as their PWR cell. Most of >>> the old crew from Pika are now working for Generac. It's beyond me that >>> Generac bought them and yet they still don't have a generator input. That's >>> why I could never sign on to the Pika product line. Good luck. >>> >>> Christopher >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:00 AM Jeremy Rodriguez < >>> allsolarjeremy at msn.com> wrote: >>> >>>> If anyone has any info on how to get a hold of The former PIKA ENERGY >>>> support group, please contact me off list. >>>> Or if anyone knows where one could get one of their inverters >>>> rebuilt/repaired let me know. >>>> >>>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>>> Solar Installation / Design Expert >>>> All Solar, Inc. >>>> 1463 M St >>>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>>> >>>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_-5442077821836477810_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sat Sep 12 06:39:15 2020 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2020 06:39:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Getting Enphase IQ Cable into J Boxes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: my favorite catalog for all kinds of hard to find stuff - mcmaster.com [mcmaster.com] I buy cord connectors all the time from them - a very large variety for all sizes of cable. Just small sample below. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 29th Anniversary 1991-2020 www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 9/11/2020 3:39:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Just a quick tip for those of you installing Enphase. I recently discovered there is a Heyco connector for TWO Enphase IQ cables and a bare ground in a single 3/4" knockout. This has saved us a bunch of time. The rubber gland is prepunched, but you can also use it for a single IQ cable since it is not punched all the way through. Part number is M3234GDA-SM, available through Mouser, Rexel, anyone who sells Heyco I would imagine.    [image.png] Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 117228 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 62008 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sat Sep 12 12:44:59 2020 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2020 09:44:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Micro-hydro with L-ion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <024d7749-6069-0b77-29d7-d17e060308e2@psln.com> Dearest off-gridders,              OK, many of you micro-hydro fanatics on the west coast are stuck inside with all the smoke, time to put on your tin foil thinking caps....             I brought this up some time back but got little (zero maybe) feedback.  I'm hoping there are some other micro-hydro folks out there that have figured out how to marry a Harris pelton, to a L-ion battery for charging.  Outputs vary with rainfall/snow-melt from 3 amps to 28 amps (24V).  Over the years with LA batteries, I've simply used a Trace C40 PWM CC between the battery and mondo load resistors (two configurations due to varying hydro output).  Of course sometimes the output and resistor load did not match and I'd be sending 2,3, maybe 4 amps to the 1270 Ahr Battery which at times was already floating.  This system is also fed with about 2800 watts of PV, ala FM80 CC.             This must not have hurt the battery too much as they are 17 years old and still pretty happy.  However, L-ion is not going to be happy with this configuration and would require some way to provide a perfect match of hydro output to dump load when it reaches its full charge to insure its not over-charged (AKA destroyed). Will a Classic deal with this?  Other ideas?  Experience is golden. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From Bruce at sandiegosolarinstall.com Sat Sep 12 12:52:13 2020 From: Bruce at sandiegosolarinstall.com (Bruce Bosworth) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2020 16:52:13 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Micro-hydro with L-ion In-Reply-To: <024d7749-6069-0b77-29d7-d17e060308e2@psln.com> References: , <024d7749-6069-0b77-29d7-d17e060308e2@psln.com> Message-ID: Unsubscribe Bruce Bosworth San Diego Solar Install 619-600-8087.Your Friends in solar energy www.sandiegosolarinstall.com (C-46 Solar Contractor) > On Sep 12, 2020, at 9:44 AM, frenergy wrote: > > Dearest off-gridders, > OK, many of you micro-hydro fanatics on the west coast are stuck inside with all the smoke, time to put on your tin foil thinking caps.... > > I brought this up some time back but got little (zero maybe) feedback. I'm hoping there are some other micro-hydro folks out there that have figured out how to marry a Harris pelton, to a L-ion battery for charging. Outputs vary with rainfall/snow-melt from 3 amps to 28 amps (24V). Over the years with LA batteries, I've simply used a Trace C40 PWM CC between the battery and mondo load resistors (two configurations due to varying hydro output). Of course sometimes the output and resistor load did not match and I'd be sending 2,3, maybe 4 amps to the 1270 Ahr Battery which at times was already floating. This system is also fed with about 2800 watts of PV, ala FM80 CC. > > > This must not have hurt the battery too much as they are 17 years old and still pretty happy. However, L-ion is not going to be happy with this configuration and would require some way to provide a perfect match of hydro output to dump load when it reaches its full charge to insure its not over-charged (AKA destroyed). Will a Classic deal with this? Other ideas? Experience is golden. > > Bill > > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Sep 12 12:54:39 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2020 12:54:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika Support by chance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 54kWh doesn't go far for air conditioning in September in Southwest Florida. Trust me. Most homes have $200+ electric bills at $0.10/kWh this time of year, sometimes substantially more. Generator backup, even with 4 Powerwalls, is necessary for mission-critical grid-tied backup situations. Sadly, you can't charge Powerwalls with a generator. You just bypass battery storage and run loads straight off the generator, which means the generator needs to be sized for the whole home. It would be nice to have a generator input for supplemental charging at least with a small portable unit. There is no perfect solution for this application. At least no cost-effective solution. On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 6:06 PM August Goers wrote: > Hi Bill - > > I completely agree with your statement about all off-grid applications. > Most if not all need generators. And, I do think there are some grid tied > applications where generators make sense too, especially for folks who live > way out in the woods as you mention. I was speaking about the mass market > in CA in cities or towns where the grid is typically fairly reliable. If > you install four Powerwalls, for example, you have up to 54 kWh of storage > available. There are applications where generators make sense, and all > these fires and smoke and heat waves prove the point. I think AC is > critical for some parts of the country, and energy storage + PV alone just > won't cut it for those critical applications. > > But, yes, good point. > > August > > > > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 2:33 PM frenergy wrote: > >> August, >> >> Quite frankly and with due respect about the comment about >> more PV and battery to forego the need for a generator, I disagree. Those >> folks living off-grid in the sticks (um,er, myself included), it would be a >> very bad thing not to have Gen input. The current situation here in Plumas >> county (and many other counties right now) is another perfect example. It >> is so smokey that my daily KWhrs has been cut in half and of course every >> other off-grid home is having the same issue. This has been going on for >> almost a month with only occasional breaks. There are also CC failures, >> FET board craps out, other excrement occurs. >> >> We all know there are many critical needs for power >> especially to run a pump for fire protection, frig for food, communication >> to know what the hell may coming your way during some event (fire, flood, >> bad weather) medical needs, etc. In the winter there are at least a few >> times when there is little or no sun for 1 maybe 2 weeks...that gets to be >> a spendy array and battery. Certainly, the idea of going that route works >> for some scenarios but not off-grid. Generators are still a much needed >> necessary evil. Maybe its a big deal to incorporate that feature in an >> inverter?? Sounds like bean counting. >> >> My $.02 worth >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net >> >> On 9/11/2020 1:01 PM, August Goers wrote: >> >> In CA the market for ESS is primarily grid tied support features driven >> by SGIP + backup (public safety power shutoffs, folks who live in less >> stable grid areas, folks worried about natural disasters) so the ESS is >> designed to replace generators. This might be a little trickier for areas >> that need air conditioning during a grid outage (or for all electric >> homes), but one tactic is just to go bigger with the ESS and PV system. I >> guess what I'm saying is that the value proposition might already be >> getting better just to skip the generator and go bigger with the storage. >> Even Generac might be going that route. >> >> August >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:52 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> We are seeing tons of companies in Florida offering Generac/Pika now. >>> They didn't do it when it was Pika, so why would they now that it has an >>> orange label? Crazy. >>> >>> No generator input makes zero sense and even less sense for a generator >>> manufacturer. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:58 PM Chris Schaefer < >>> chris at solarandwindfx.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Jeremy, >>>> Pika was bought out by Generac and rebranded as their PWR cell. Most of >>>> the old crew from Pika are now working for Generac. It's beyond me that >>>> Generac bought them and yet they still don't have a generator input. That's >>>> why I could never sign on to the Pika product line. Good luck. >>>> >>>> Christopher >>>> >>>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:00 AM Jeremy Rodriguez < >>>> allsolarjeremy at msn.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> If anyone has any info on how to get a hold of The former PIKA ENERGY >>>>> support group, please contact me off list. >>>>> Or if anyone knows where one could get one of their inverters >>>>> rebuilt/repaired let me know. >>>>> >>>>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>>>> Solar Installation / Design Expert >>>>> All Solar, Inc. >>>>> 1463 M St >>>>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>>>> >>>>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >> >> Virus-free. >> www.avast.com >> >> <#m_-8229653746126658197_m_-5442077821836477810_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Sep 12 13:05:25 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2020 13:05:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Getting Enphase IQ Cable into J Boxes In-Reply-To: <01bc01d68874$8ed7cea0$ac876be0$@pv-cables.com> References: <01bc01d68874$8ed7cea0$ac876be0$@pv-cables.com> Message-ID: Bryan, I'm happy to see you have these. But the Heyco catalog doesn't show a -SM for the 1/2" part. They only show a 1/2" for a single tray cable with no bare, the M3231GCZ that is on your website. Are you saying there is another one not listed in the catalog that does have a bare and is skinned over? https://heyco-products.com/media/pdf/ec/35/10/LTC-Enphase-Q-and-Helios-UVX-ClipecNgmD5A3WCBf.pdf If you bring in the M3234GDA-SM, I'm a buyer. I prefer this one to reduce stock parts since it's good for one or two cable entries and one or zero bare wires. I had been using the Arlington NMUF50 for single Q Cable entry and a similar gland for bare wire. This one part from Heyco simplifies everything. Jason On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 3:48 PM Bryan Norkunas wrote: > M3231GCZ-SM is the part number for the ½” version, > > Though the ½” version only accepting a single 12/2 tray cable with bare > ground. > > > > We see a bigger demand for the ½ vs the ¾” > > > > > > *Bryan Norkunas* > > bryan at pv-cables.com > > > > [image: Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140] > > *PV-Cables Inc. * > > *989 Milton Ave Ste 1D* > > *Ferndale CA 95536* > > (707) 923-3000 office > > www.pv-cables.com > > > > > [image: Description: Description: cid:image002.jpg at 01CD22E8.974B6470] Please > print only if necessary. > > > > NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the > intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged > information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is > prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the > sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original > message. > > > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Friday, September 11, 2020 12:16 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Getting Enphase IQ Cable into J Boxes > > > > Just a quick tip for those of you installing Enphase. I recently > discovered there is a Heyco connector for TWO Enphase IQ cables and a bare > ground in a single 3/4" knockout. This has saved us a bunch of time. The > rubber gland is prepunched, but you can also use it for a single IQ cable > since it is not punched all the way through. > > > > Part number is M3234GDA-SM, available through Mouser, Rexel, anyone who > sells Heyco I would imagine. > > > > [image: image.png] > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 62008 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Sep 12 13:24:24 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2020 10:24:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Micro-hydro with L-ion In-Reply-To: <024d7749-6069-0b77-29d7-d17e060308e2@psln.com> References: <024d7749-6069-0b77-29d7-d17e060308e2@psln.com> Message-ID: <0ACDE700-7BD7-4281-97E8-B739ED38F9A2@gmail.com> Hi Bill, My preference is with using an aux relay off of a classic, I don’t use a C40. In using different equipment C40 and PV CC they will never be the same reading and kinda fight with each other. Using a classic it diverts based on hysteresis setpoints off of charge settings. And you can get the diversion controller trying to dump PV if they get off settings or timing from EQ h other. And then you have the issue of which lithium battery. Some have no variation between charge voltage ( hard)and max shut down voltage, others have a few volts (easy). But yes it’s harder than flooded, but kinda like using VRLA batteries. The OB fm60/80 the aux isn’t temp comp’d but not an issue with lithium. The classic has 2 aux so you can do one normally and one as the failsafe/ redundant which you need anyway. You can also do a diversion based on % or volts, and if it’s behind diodes then it wont see the batteries. Giving you a closer voltage control. Again no c40 in my view. Hope that helps Jay > On Sep 12, 2020, at 9:44 AM, frenergy wrote: > > Dearest off-gridders, > OK, many of you micro-hydro fanatics on the west coast are stuck inside with all the smoke, time to put on your tin foil thinking caps.... > > I brought this up some time back but got little (zero maybe) feedback. I'm hoping there are some other micro-hydro folks out there that have figured out how to marry a Harris pelton, to a L-ion battery for charging. Outputs vary with rainfall/snow-melt from 3 amps to 28 amps (24V). Over the years with LA batteries, I've simply used a Trace C40 PWM CC between the battery and mondo load resistors (two configurations due to varying hydro output). Of course sometimes the output and resistor load did not match and I'd be sending 2,3, maybe 4 amps to the 1270 Ahr Battery which at times was already floating. This system is also fed with about 2800 watts of PV, ala FM80 CC. > > > This must not have hurt the battery too much as they are 17 years old and still pretty happy. However, L-ion is not going to be happy with this configuration and would require some way to provide a perfect match of hydro output to dump load when it reaches its full charge to insure its not over-charged (AKA destroyed). Will a Classic deal with this? Other ideas? Experience is golden. > > Bill > > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Sep 12 17:25:56 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2020 14:25:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Pika_Support_by_chance=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1ada6ca4e61ff4b7398f2a98180809fe@127.0.0.1> I have 5 clients in Florida running mini-split heat pumps offgrid. The smallest is a 13 kwh useable and the rest running L16 2v cells @ 48v nominal. Not trying to be a contrarian but with a 2,000 square foot house with great insulation and SEER numbers around 30, it is not that hard. Need alot of solar, and virtual tracking for the afternoon thunderstorms in the south also. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 12:54:39 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: 54kWh doesn't go far for air conditioning in September in Southwest Florida. Trust me. Most homes have $200+ electric bills at $0.10/kWh this time of year, sometimes substantially more. Generator backup, even with 4 Powerwalls, is necessary for mission-critical grid-tied backup situations. Sadly, you can't charge Powerwalls with a generator. You just bypass battery storage and run loads straight off the generator, which means the generator needs to be sized for the whole home. It would be nice to have a generator input for supplemental charging at least with a small portable unit. There is no perfect solution for this application. At least no cost-effective solution. On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 6:06 PM August Goers wrote: Hi Bill - I completely agree with your statement about all off-grid applications. Most if not all need generators. And, I do think there are some grid tied applications where generators make sense too, especially for folks who live way out in the woods as you mention. I was speaking about the mass market in CA in cities or towns where the grid is typically fairly reliable. If you install four Powerwalls, for example, you have up to 54 kWh of storage available. There are applications where generators make sense, and all these fires and smoke and heat waves prove the point. I think AC is critical for some parts of the country, and energy storage + PV alone just won't cut it for those critical applications. But, yes, good point. August On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 2:33 PM frenergy wrote: August, Quite frankly and with due respect about the comment about more PV and battery to forego the need for a generator, I disagree. Those folks living off-grid in the sticks (um,er, myself included), it would be a very bad thing not to have Gen input. The current situation here in Plumas county (and many other counties right now) is another perfect example. It is so smokey that my daily KWhrs has been cut in half and of course every other off-grid home is having the same issue. This has been going on for almost a month with only occasional breaks. There are also CC failures, FET board craps out, other excrement occurs. We all know there are many critical needs for power especially to run a pump for fire protection, frig for food, communication to know what the hell may coming your way during some event (fire, flood, bad weather) medical needs, etc. In the winter there are at least a few times when there is little or no sun for 1 maybe 2 weeks...that gets to be a spendy array and battery. Certainly, the idea of going that route works for some scenarios but not off-grid. Generators are still a much needed necessary evil. Maybe its a big deal to incorporate that feature in an inverter?? Sounds like bean counting. My $.02 worth Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net [5] On 9/11/2020 1:01 PM, August Goers wrote: In CA the market for ESS is primarily grid tied support features driven by SGIP + backup (public safety power shutoffs, folks who live in less stable grid areas, folks worried about natural disasters) so the ESS is designed to replace generators. This might be a little trickier for areas that need air conditioning during a grid outage (or for all electric homes), but one tactic is just to go bigger with the ESS and PV system. I guess what I'm saying is that the value proposition might already be getting better just to skip the generator and go bigger with the storage. Even Generac might be going that route. August On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:52 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: We are seeing tons of companies in Florida offering Generac/Pika now. They didn't do it when it was Pika, so why would they now that it has an orange label? Crazy. No generator input makes zero sense and even less sense for a generator manufacturer. On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:58 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: Jeremy, Pika was bought out by Generac and rebranded as their PWR cell. Most of the old crew from Pika are now working for Generac. It's beyond me that Generac bought them and yet they still don't have a generator input. That's why I could never sign on to the Pika product line. Good luck. Christopher On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:00 AM Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: If anyone has any info on how to get a hold of The former PIKA ENERGY support group, please contact me off list. Or if anyone knows where one could get one of their inverters rebuilt/repaired let me know. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ [9] Virus-free. www.avast.com [10] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [15] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] List rules " src="https://webmail.sti.net/tuxedo/?_task=mail&_action=display-attachment&_file=rcmfile11599945444047296600" alt="" width="0" height="0" /> Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:august at luminalt.com [4] mailto:frenergy at psln.com [5] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/e37b8134584cfc480c3ad6deab2b0b296c8da98a?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.frenergy.net&userId=1613865&signature=057ab7bbd77fff54 [6] mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com [7] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com [8] mailto:allsolarjeremy at msn.com [9] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/27c556050bdf461b0882a1804391146f8d8f82ff?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fsig-email%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dlink%26utm_campaign%3Dsig-email%26utm_content%3Demailclient%26utm_term%3Dicon&userId=1613865&signature=b089db6c81d5933a [10] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/95b9c107c5f99c0a789df61dd73f3ddab6a2207f?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fsig-email%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dlink%26utm_campaign%3Dsig-email%26utm_content%3Demailclient%26utm_term%3Dlink&userId=1613865&signature=e9f3d796762a1655 [11] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/4ef48dc8029490c6b69b7491571e632bb95f2303?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=243b075d39aeb654 [13] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/d41c26f68621cebf3d9d5c221421cb2c33eda6b2?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=152a04e76218e94f [14] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/3123bba5164cb313634d07229c304d8e223694c6?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=7f7f89cf49a50d67 [15] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/0f77726d4b464b926cf6efac0ef4d6ff98416617?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=1de85fb155d4704a [16] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/29b8a9dc32a373a5c3907083c07bb33bc3df601e?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=ebebb338be063899 [18] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/79c43b51a557ef01e0534277bd308820e1b928f0?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=552c7f1a031fdc7d [19] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/da7a75f8a4b954f086d5f2b83bd03373d8b2e26f?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=36d5aefc7d348303 [20] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/3d9373a0d07bb115e8662a5138ea85b86e21dfba?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=26f3fe4f1b1a8bdd -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Sep 12 17:29:42 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2020 14:29:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Micro-hydro with L-ion In-Reply-To: <0ACDE700-7BD7-4281-97E8-B739ED38F9A2@gmail.com> References: <024d7749-6069-0b77-29d7-d17e060308e2@psln.com> <0ACDE700-7BD7-4281-97E8-B739ED38F9A2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Adding to Jay, you really need to charge lithium based on Soc. Just not reliable in wind and water because of the damage potential to use voltage. Another way to say it, it is just too easy to use Soc. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 10:24:24 -0700, Jay wrote: > Hi Bill, > > My preference is with using an aux relay off of a classic, I don’t use a > C40. > > In using different equipment C40 and PV CC they will never be the same > reading and kinda fight with each other. Using a classic it diverts based > on hysteresis setpoints off of charge settings. And you can get the > diversion controller trying to dump PV if they get off settings or timing > from EQ h other. > > And then you have the issue of which lithium battery. Some have no > variation between charge voltage ( hard)and max shut down voltage, others > have a few volts (easy). > > But yes it’s harder than flooded, but kinda like using VRLA batteries. > > The OB fm60/80 the aux isn’t temp comp’d but not an issue with lithium. > The classic has 2 aux so you can do one normally and one as the failsafe/ > redundant which you need anyway. > > You can also do a diversion based on % or volts, and if it’s behind > diodes then it wont see the batteries. Giving you a closer voltage control. > Again no c40 in my view. > > > Hope that helps > > Jay > > > > > > > >> On Sep 12, 2020, at 9:44 AM, frenergy wrote: >> >> Dearest off-gridders, >> OK, many of you micro-hydro fanatics on the west coast are >> stuck inside with all the smoke, time to put on your tin >> foil thinking caps.... >> >> I brought this up some time back but got little (zero maybe) >> feedback. I'm hoping there are some other micro-hydro folks >> out there that have figured out how to marry a Harris pelton, >> to a L-ion battery for charging. Outputs vary with >> rainfall/snow-melt from 3 amps to 28 amps (24V). Over the >> years with LA batteries, I've simply used a Trace C40 PWM CC >> between the battery and mondo load resistors (two >> configurations due to varying hydro output). Of course >> sometimes the output and resistor load did not match and I'd >> be sending 2,3, maybe 4 amps to the 1270 Ahr Battery which at >> times was already floating. This system is also fed with >> about 2800 watts of PV, ala FM80 CC. >> >> >> This must not have hurt the battery too much as they are 17 >> years old and still pretty happy. However, L-ion is not >> going to be happy with this configuration and would require >> some way to provide a perfect match of hydro output to dump >> load when it reaches its full charge to insure its not >> over-charged (AKA destroyed). Will a Classic deal with this? >> Other ideas? Experience is golden. >> >> Bill >> >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> >> -- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org From ray at solarray.com Sat Sep 12 17:51:39 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2020 15:51:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika Support by chance? In-Reply-To: <1ada6ca4e61ff4b7398f2a98180809fe@127.0.0.1> References: <1ada6ca4e61ff4b7398f2a98180809fe@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: What size Air Conditioners? Those seem like really small battery banks for that.  I suppose they just run in the day mostly when the sun is shinning? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/12/20 3:25 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > I have 5 clients in Florida running mini-split heat pumps offgrid. The > smallest is a 13 kwh useable and the rest running L16 2v cells @ 48v > nominal.  Not trying to be a contrarian but with a 2,000 square foot > house with great insulation and SEER numbers around 30, it is not that > hard. Need alot of solar, and virtual tracking for the afternoon > thunderstorms in the south also. > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 12:54:39 -0400, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > >> 54kWh doesn't go far for air conditioning in September in Southwest >> Florida. Trust me. Most homes have $200+ electric bills at $0.10/kWh >> this time of year, sometimes substantially more. >> Generator backup, even with 4 Powerwalls, is necessary for >> mission-critical grid-tied backup situations. Sadly, you can't charge >> Powerwalls with a generator. You just bypass battery storage and run >> loads straight off the generator, which means the generator needs to >> be sized for the whole home. It would be nice to have a generator >> input for supplemental charging at least with a small portable unit. >> There is no perfect solution for this application. At least no >> cost-effective solution. >> >> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 6:06 PM August Goers > > wrote: >> >> Hi Bill - >> I completely agree with your statement about all off-grid >> applications. Most if not all need generators. And, I do think >> there are some grid tied applications where generators make sense >> too, especially for folks who live way out in the woods as you >> mention. I was speaking about the mass market in CA in cities or >> towns where the grid is typically fairly reliable. If you install >> four Powerwalls, for example, you have up to 54 kWh of storage >> available. There are applications where generators make sense, >> and all these fires and smoke and heat waves prove the point. I >> think AC is critical for some parts of the country, and energy >> storage + PV alone just won't cut it for those critical applications. >> But, yes, good point. >> August >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 2:33 PM frenergy > > wrote: >> >> August, >> >>             Quite frankly and with due respect about the >> comment about more PV and battery to forego the need for a >> generator, I disagree. Those folks living off-grid in the >> sticks (um,er, myself included), it would be a very bad thing >> not to have Gen input.  The current situation here in Plumas >> county  (and many other counties right now) is another >> perfect example.  It is so smokey that my daily KWhrs has >> been cut in half and of course every other off-grid home is >> having the same issue. This has been going on for almost a >> month with only occasional breaks.  There are also CC >> failures, FET board craps out, other excrement occurs. >> >>             We all know there are many critical needs for >> power especially to run a pump for fire protection, frig for >> food, communication to know what the hell may coming your way >> during some event (fire, flood, bad weather) medical needs, >> etc.  In the winter there are at least a few times when there >> is little or no sun for 1 maybe 2 weeks...that gets to be a >> spendy array and battery.  Certainly, the idea of going that >> route works for some scenarios but not off-grid. Generators >> are still a much needed necessary evil.  Maybe its a big deal >> to incorporate that feature in an inverter??  Sounds like >> bean counting. >> >> My $.02 worth >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> On 9/11/2020 1:01 PM, August Goers wrote: >>> In CA the market for ESS is primarily grid tied support >>> features driven by SGIP + backup (public safety power >>> shutoffs, folks who live in less stable grid areas, folks >>> worried about natural disasters) so the ESS is designed to >>> replace generators. This might be a little trickier for >>> areas that need air conditioning during a grid outage (or >>> for all electric homes), but one tactic is just to go bigger >>> with the ESS and PV system. I guess what I'm saying is that >>> the value proposition might already be getting better just >>> to skip the generator and go bigger with the storage. Even >>> Generac might be going that route. >>> August >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:52 AM Jason Szumlanski >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> We are seeing tons of companies in Florida offering >>> Generac/Pika now. They didn't do it when it was Pika, so >>> why would they now that it has an orange label? Crazy. >>> No generator input makes zero sense and even less sense >>> for a generator manufacturer. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:58 PM Chris Schaefer >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> Jeremy, >>> Pika was bought out by Generac and rebranded as >>> their PWR cell. Most of the old crew from Pika are >>> now working for Generac. It's beyond me that Generac >>> bought them and yet they still don't have a >>> generator input. That's why I could never sign on to >>> the Pika product line. Good luck. >>> Christopher >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:00 AM Jeremy Rodriguez >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> If anyone has any info on how to get a hold of >>> The former PIKA ENERGY support group, please >>> contact me off list. >>> Or if anyone knows where one could get one of >>> their inverters rebuilt/repaired let me know. >>> >>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>> Solar Installation / Design Expert >>> All Solar, Inc. >>> 1463 M St >>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and >>> shorthand. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> >> >> Virus-free. www.avast.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Sep 12 19:09:01 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2020 16:09:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Pika_Support_by_chance=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <1ada6ca4e61ff4b7398f2a98180809fe@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <0c666ecb3c784abbcf16fee03d539a74@127.0.0.1> Hi Ray, They run at night set at 77f. We use a 1 ton, 12,000 btu and a 2nd spare for day use. The spare is rarely needed. These are near 30 SEER, the most expensive model in each make. LG, Mitsu, Fujitsu. Just after dawn when the array is lit, we drop the program temp to 74 or so. Most HVAC will tell you this won't work. I have been doing this since 2007 when they started coming out in the US. They sip power at night like a small child :) The HVAC people have the mentality that you need to cool a hot house down in 30 minutes and that is how they size. Offgrid, we never let it get that hot, as we live there and can leave it on. There is no power bill except the big one at the beginning! There are a few other strategies I use also. Right now it is full smoke here from the wildfires, the whole 1800 sqft house is using 400 watts and it is 74 in and 86 outside. We often have 100 degree weather and it does use more. In smoke like this, the split pressurizes the home and aids in keeping smoke outside also. That is a very nice thing. Some of the folks in the area just got PG ">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 15:51:39 -0600, Ray wrote: What size Air Conditioners? Those seem like really small battery banks for that. I suppose they just run in the day mostly when the sun is shinning? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/12/20 3:25 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: I have 5 clients in Florida running mini-split heat pumps offgrid. The smallest is a 13 kwh useable and the rest running L16 2v cells @ 48v nominal. Not trying to be a contrarian but with a 2,000 square foot house with great insulation and SEER numbers around 30, it is not that hard. Need alot of solar, and virtual tracking for the afternoon thunderstorms in the south also. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [4] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 12:54:39 -0400, Jason Szumlanski [5] wrote: 54kWh doesn't go far for air conditioning in September in Southwest Florida. Trust me. Most homes have $200+ electric bills at $0.10/kWh this time of year, sometimes substantially more. Generator backup, even with 4 Powerwalls, is necessary for mission-critical grid-tied backup situations. Sadly, you can't charge Powerwalls with a generator. You just bypass battery storage and run loads straight off the generator, which means the generator needs to be sized for the whole home. It would be nice to have a generator input for supplemental charging at least with a small portable unit. There is no perfect solution for this application. At least no cost-effective solution. On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 6:06 PM August Goers wrote: Hi Bill - I completely agree with your statement about all off-grid applications. Most if not all need generators. And, I do think there are some grid tied applications where generators make sense too, especially for folks who live way out in the woods as you mention. I was speaking about the mass market in CA in cities or towns where the grid is typically fairly reliable. If you install four Powerwalls, for example, you have up to 54 kWh of storage available. There are applications where generators make sense, and all these fires and smoke and heat waves prove the point. I think AC is critical for some parts of the country, and energy storage + PV alone just won't cut it for those critical applications. But, yes, good point. August On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 2:33 PM frenergy wrote: August, Quite frankly and with due respect about the comment about more PV and battery to forego the need for a generator, I disagree. Those folks living off-grid in the sticks (um,er, myself included), it would be a very bad thing not to have Gen input. The current situation here in Plumas county (and many other counties right now) is another perfect example. It is so smokey that my daily KWhrs has been cut in half and of course every other off-grid home is having the same issue. This has been going on for almost a month with only occasional breaks. There are also CC failures, FET board craps out, other excrement occurs. We all know there are many critical needs for power especially to run a pump for fire protection, frig for food, communication to know what the hell may coming your way during some event (fire, flood, bad weather) medical needs, etc. In the winter there are at least a few times when there is little or no sun for 1 maybe 2 weeks...that gets to be a spendy array and battery. Certainly, the idea of going that route works for some scenarios but not off-grid. Generators are still a much needed necessary evil. Maybe its a big deal to incorporate that feature in an inverter?? Sounds like bean counting. My $.02 worth Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net [8] On 9/11/2020 1:01 PM, August Goers wrote: In CA the market for ESS is primarily grid tied support features driven by SGIP + backup (public safety power shutoffs, folks who live in less stable grid areas, folks worried about natural disasters) so the ESS is designed to replace generators. This might be a little trickier for areas that need air conditioning during a grid outage (or for all electric homes), but one tactic is just to go bigger with the ESS and PV system. I guess what I'm saying is that the value proposition might already be getting better just to skip the generator and go bigger with the storage. Even Generac might be going that route. August On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:52 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: We are seeing tons of companies in Florida offering Generac/Pika now. They didn't do it when it was Pika, so why would they now that it has an orange label? Crazy. No generator input makes zero sense and even less sense for a generator manufacturer. On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:58 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: Jeremy, Pika was bought out by Generac and rebranded as their PWR cell. Most of the old crew from Pika are now working for Generac. It's beyond me that Generac bought them and yet they still don't have a generator input. That's why I could never sign on to the Pika product line. Good luck. Christopher On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:00 AM Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: If anyone has any info on how to get a hold of The former PIKA ENERGY support group, please contact me off list. Or if anyone knows where one could get one of their inverters rebuilt/repaired let me know. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. 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URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Sep 13 11:02:59 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 11:02:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika Support by chance? In-Reply-To: <0c666ecb3c784abbcf16fee03d539a74@127.0.0.1> References: <1ada6ca4e61ff4b7398f2a98180809fe@127.0.0.1> <0c666ecb3c784abbcf16fee03d539a74@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: If the home is built for that purpose, for sure it is possible. Most retrofit situations don't work out so well. And SW Florida is a different animal compared to Miami, Central, and North Florida. We don't get a breeze this time of year, and humidity is ridiculous. It's a real challenge. I have seen a 12 kbtu unit on a well-insulated outbuilding unable to keep up. A new off-grid design I am working on now with six 400 sq ft cottages has an 18 kbtu unit spec'd for each cottage. On the other hand, those mini-splits are good for dehumidification only if the cottage is unoccupied. That's why they are doing a separate compressor and air handler pair for each cottage. My 3,000 sq ft home is old with two aging AC units (3.5 and 2 ton). They are barely able to keep up this time of year in the afternoons. I have a 10kW PV system and my utility bill goes from slightly negative in April to 2,500 kWh in August. That's all air conditioning essentially. I have calculated that I could save about 1,000 kWh with AC upgrades and other efficiency measures, but the numbers don't make financial sense to do so. Here's a pretty representative day in September: [image: image.png] (Side note: don't you wish you could have this data before designing a system for an off-grid home?) Almost every single day I hear, "but Tesla's website says I can run my whole house with air conditioning and electric water heating on two Powerwalls." Consumers put way too much trust in those online calculators. Most people we run into have AC compressors with LRA of 80-105, so you need four Powerwalls by the specs just to start it up. I know... add a soft start capacitor... but then you end up with not enough capacity to get through a cloudy afternoon and night, and usually not enough PV the next day to replenish this time of year. On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 7:09 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Hi Ray, > > They run at night set at 77f. We use a 1 ton, 12,000 btu and a 2nd spare > for day use. The spare is rarely needed. These are near 30 SEER, the most > expensive model in each make. LG, Mitsu, Fujitsu. Just after dawn when the > array is lit, we drop the program temp to 74 or so. > > Most HVAC will tell you this won't work. I have been doing this since 2007 > when they started coming out in the US. They sip power at night like a > small child :) The HVAC people have the mentality that you need to cool a > hot house down in 30 minutes and that is how they size. Offgrid, we never > let it get that hot, as we live there and can leave it on. There is no > power bill except the big one at the beginning! > > There are a few other strategies I use also. Right now it is full smoke > here from the wildfires, the whole 1800 sqft house is using 400 watts and > it is 74 in and 86 outside. We often have 100 degree weather and it does > use more. In smoke like this, the split pressurizes the home and aids in > keeping smoke outside also. That is a very nice thing. Some of the folks in > the area just got PG &E back after the PSPS. Not fun for them! Take a peek > at my picture link on the webpage below. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 15:51:39 -0600, Ray wrote: > > What size Air Conditioners? Those seem like really small battery banks for > that. I suppose they just run in the day mostly when the sun is shinning? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 9/12/20 3:25 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > I have 5 clients in Florida running mini-split heat pumps offgrid. The > smallest is a 13 kwh useable and the rest running L16 2v cells @ 48v > nominal. Not trying to be a contrarian but with a 2,000 square foot house > with great insulation and SEER numbers around 30, it is not that hard. Need > alot of solar, and virtual tracking for the afternoon thunderstorms in the > south also. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 12:54:39 -0400, Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > > 54kWh doesn't go far for air conditioning in September in Southwest > Florida. Trust me. Most homes have $200+ electric bills at $0.10/kWh this > time of year, sometimes substantially more. > > Generator backup, even with 4 Powerwalls, is necessary for > mission-critical grid-tied backup situations. Sadly, you can't charge > Powerwalls with a generator. You just bypass battery storage and run loads > straight off the generator, which means the generator needs to be sized for > the whole home. It would be nice to have a generator input for supplemental > charging at least with a small portable unit. > > There is no perfect solution for this application. At least no > cost-effective solution. > > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 6:06 PM August Goers wrote: > >> Hi Bill - >> >> I completely agree with your statement about all off-grid applications. >> Most if not all need generators. And, I do think there are some grid tied >> applications where generators make sense too, especially for folks who live >> way out in the woods as you mention. I was speaking about the mass market >> in CA in cities or towns where the grid is typically fairly reliable. If >> you install four Powerwalls, for example, you have up to 54 kWh of storage >> available. There are applications where generators make sense, and all >> these fires and smoke and heat waves prove the point. I think AC is >> critical for some parts of the country, and energy storage + PV alone just >> won't cut it for those critical applications. >> >> But, yes, good point. >> >> August >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 2:33 PM frenergy wrote: >> >>> August, >>> >>> Quite frankly and with due respect about the comment about >>> more PV and battery to forego the need for a generator, I disagree. Those >>> folks living off-grid in the sticks (um,er, myself included), it would be a >>> very bad thing not to have Gen input. The current situation here in Plumas >>> county (and many other counties right now) is another perfect example. It >>> is so smokey that my daily KWhrs has been cut in half and of course every >>> other off-grid home is having the same issue. This has been going on for >>> almost a month with only occasional breaks. There are also CC failures, >>> FET board craps out, other excrement occurs. >>> >>> We all know there are many critical needs for power >>> especially to run a pump for fire protection, frig for food, communication >>> to know what the hell may coming your way during some event (fire, flood, >>> bad weather) medical needs, etc. In the winter there are at least a few >>> times when there is little or no sun for 1 maybe 2 weeks...that gets to be >>> a spendy array and battery. Certainly, the idea of going that route works >>> for some scenarios but not off-grid. Generators are still a much needed >>> necessary evil. Maybe its a big deal to incorporate that feature in an >>> inverter?? Sounds like bean counting. >>> >>> My $.02 worth >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net >>> >>> On 9/11/2020 1:01 PM, August Goers wrote: >>> >>> In CA the market for ESS is primarily grid tied support features driven >>> by SGIP + backup (public safety power shutoffs, folks who live in less >>> stable grid areas, folks worried about natural disasters) so the ESS is >>> designed to replace generators. This might be a little trickier for areas >>> that need air conditioning during a grid outage (or for all electric >>> homes), but one tactic is just to go bigger with the ESS and PV system. I >>> guess what I'm saying is that the value proposition might already be >>> getting better just to skip the generator and go bigger with the storage. >>> Even Generac might be going that route. >>> >>> August >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:52 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> We are seeing tons of companies in Florida offering Generac/Pika now. >>>> They didn't do it when it was Pika, so why would they now that it has an >>>> orange label? Crazy. >>>> >>>> No generator input makes zero sense and even less sense for a generator >>>> manufacturer. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:58 PM Chris Schaefer < >>>> chris at solarandwindfx.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jeremy, >>>>> Pika was bought out by Generac and rebranded as their PWR cell. Most >>>>> of the old crew from Pika are now working for Generac. It's beyond me that >>>>> Generac bought them and yet they still don't have a generator input. That's >>>>> why I could never sign on to the Pika product line. Good luck. >>>>> >>>>> Christopher >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:00 AM Jeremy Rodriguez < >>>>> allsolarjeremy at msn.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> If anyone has any info on how to get a hold of The former PIKA ENERGY >>>>>> support group, please contact me off list. >>>>>> Or if anyone knows where one could get one of their inverters >>>>>> rebuilt/repaired let me know. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>>>>> Solar Installation / Design Expert >>>>>> All Solar, Inc. >>>>>> 1463 M St >>>>>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> Virus-free. >>> www.avast.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 680639 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Bruce at sandiegosolarinstall.com Sun Sep 13 11:26:05 2020 From: Bruce at sandiegosolarinstall.com (Bruce Bosworth) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 15:26:05 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Unsubscribe In-Reply-To: References: <1ada6ca4e61ff4b7398f2a98180809fe@127.0.0.1> <0c666ecb3c784abbcf16fee03d539a74@127.0.0.1>, Message-ID: <826B4BD6-6EEB-406D-922F-0B0527797783@sandiegosolarinstall.com> Unsubscribe. I never signed up for these emails. Bruce Bosworth San Diego Solar Install 619-600-8087.Your Friends in solar energy www.sandiegosolarinstall.com (C-46 Solar Contractor) On Sep 13, 2020, at 8:06 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:  If the home is built for that purpose, for sure it is possible. Most retrofit situations don't work out so well. And SW Florida is a different animal compared to Miami, Central, and North Florida. We don't get a breeze this time of year, and humidity is ridiculous. It's a real challenge. I have seen a 12 kbtu unit on a well-insulated outbuilding unable to keep up. A new off-grid design I am working on now with six 400 sq ft cottages has an 18 kbtu unit spec'd for each cottage. On the other hand, those mini-splits are good for dehumidification only if the cottage is unoccupied. That's why they are doing a separate compressor and air handler pair for each cottage. My 3,000 sq ft home is old with two aging AC units (3.5 and 2 ton). They are barely able to keep up this time of year in the afternoons. I have a 10kW PV system and my utility bill goes from slightly negative in April to 2,500 kWh in August. That's all air conditioning essentially. I have calculated that I could save about 1,000 kWh with AC upgrades and other efficiency measures, but the numbers don't make financial sense to do so. Here's a pretty representative day in September: (Side note: don't you wish you could have this data before designing a system for an off-grid home?) Almost every single day I hear, "but Tesla's website says I can run my whole house with air conditioning and electric water heating on two Powerwalls." Consumers put way too much trust in those online calculators. Most people we run into have AC compressors with LRA of 80-105, so you need four Powerwalls by the specs just to start it up. I know... add a soft start capacitor... but then you end up with not enough capacity to get through a cloudy afternoon and night, and usually not enough PV the next day to replenish this time of year. On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 7:09 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > wrote: Hi Ray, They run at night set at 77f. We use a 1 ton, 12,000 btu and a 2nd spare for day use. The spare is rarely needed. These are near 30 SEER, the most expensive model in each make. LG, Mitsu, Fujitsu. Just after dawn when the array is lit, we drop the program temp to 74 or so. Most HVAC will tell you this won't work. I have been doing this since 2007 when they started coming out in the US. They sip power at night like a small child :) The HVAC people have the mentality that you need to cool a hot house down in 30 minutes and that is how they size. Offgrid, we never let it get that hot, as we live there and can leave it on. There is no power bill except the big one at the beginning! There are a few other strategies I use also. Right now it is full smoke here from the wildfires, the whole 1800 sqft house is using 400 watts and it is 74 in and 86 outside. We often have 100 degree weather and it does use more. In smoke like this, the split pressurizes the home and aids in keeping smoke outside also. That is a very nice thing. Some of the folks in the area just got PG &E back after the PSPS. Not fun for them! Take a peek at my picture link on the webpage below. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 15:51:39 -0600, Ray > wrote: What size Air Conditioners? Those seem like really small battery banks for that. I suppose they just run in the day mostly when the sun is shinning? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/12/20 3:25 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: I have 5 clients in Florida running mini-split heat pumps offgrid. The smallest is a 13 kwh useable and the rest running L16 2v cells @ 48v nominal. Not trying to be a contrarian but with a 2,000 square foot house with great insulation and SEER numbers around 30, it is not that hard. Need alot of solar, and virtual tracking for the afternoon thunderstorms in the south also. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 12:54:39 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: 54kWh doesn't go far for air conditioning in September in Southwest Florida. Trust me. Most homes have $200+ electric bills at $0.10/kWh this time of year, sometimes substantially more. Generator backup, even with 4 Powerwalls, is necessary for mission-critical grid-tied backup situations. Sadly, you can't charge Powerwalls with a generator. You just bypass battery storage and run loads straight off the generator, which means the generator needs to be sized for the whole home. It would be nice to have a generator input for supplemental charging at least with a small portable unit. There is no perfect solution for this application. At least no cost-effective solution. On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 6:06 PM August Goers > wrote: Hi Bill - I completely agree with your statement about all off-grid applications. Most if not all need generators. And, I do think there are some grid tied applications where generators make sense too, especially for folks who live way out in the woods as you mention. I was speaking about the mass market in CA in cities or towns where the grid is typically fairly reliable. If you install four Powerwalls, for example, you have up to 54 kWh of storage available. There are applications where generators make sense, and all these fires and smoke and heat waves prove the point. I think AC is critical for some parts of the country, and energy storage + PV alone just won't cut it for those critical applications. But, yes, good point. August On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 2:33 PM frenergy > wrote: August, Quite frankly and with due respect about the comment about more PV and battery to forego the need for a generator, I disagree. Those folks living off-grid in the sticks (um,er, myself included), it would be a very bad thing not to have Gen input. The current situation here in Plumas county (and many other counties right now) is another perfect example. It is so smokey that my daily KWhrs has been cut in half and of course every other off-grid home is having the same issue. This has been going on for almost a month with only occasional breaks. There are also CC failures, FET board craps out, other excrement occurs. We all know there are many critical needs for power especially to run a pump for fire protection, frig for food, communication to know what the hell may coming your way during some event (fire, flood, bad weather) medical needs, etc. In the winter there are at least a few times when there is little or no sun for 1 maybe 2 weeks...that gets to be a spendy array and battery. Certainly, the idea of going that route works for some scenarios but not off-grid. Generators are still a much needed necessary evil. Maybe its a big deal to incorporate that feature in an inverter?? Sounds like bean counting. My $.02 worth Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 9/11/2020 1:01 PM, August Goers wrote: In CA the market for ESS is primarily grid tied support features driven by SGIP + backup (public safety power shutoffs, folks who live in less stable grid areas, folks worried about natural disasters) so the ESS is designed to replace generators. This might be a little trickier for areas that need air conditioning during a grid outage (or for all electric homes), but one tactic is just to go bigger with the ESS and PV system. I guess what I'm saying is that the value proposition might already be getting better just to skip the generator and go bigger with the storage. Even Generac might be going that route. August On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:52 AM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: We are seeing tons of companies in Florida offering Generac/Pika now. They didn't do it when it was Pika, so why would they now that it has an orange label? Crazy. No generator input makes zero sense and even less sense for a generator manufacturer. On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:58 PM Chris Schaefer > wrote: Jeremy, Pika was bought out by Generac and rebranded as their PWR cell. Most of the old crew from Pika are now working for Generac. It's beyond me that Generac bought them and yet they still don't have a generator input. That's why I could never sign on to the Pika product line. Good luck. Christopher On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:00 AM Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: If anyone has any info on how to get a hold of The former PIKA ENERGY support group, please contact me off list. Or if anyone knows where one could get one of their inverters rebuilt/repaired let me know. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ Virus-free. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: blocked.gif URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 680639 bytes Desc: image.png URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Sep 13 15:25:08 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 13:25:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika Support by chance? In-Reply-To: <0c666ecb3c784abbcf16fee03d539a74@127.0.0.1> References: <1ada6ca4e61ff4b7398f2a98180809fe@127.0.0.1> <0c666ecb3c784abbcf16fee03d539a74@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <3820de14-b6f2-98f2-8510-ad7b9cd82c3f@solarray.com> I was involved in Btu calculations in a previous life. Most HVAC folks over kill it, instead of really doing the detailed room by room calcs. My guess is that your systems are working because: A)There is really good insulation and air seal. B) there is enough thermal mass to carry the house through the high heat of the late afternoons. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/12/20 5:09 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > They run at night set at 77f. We use a 1 ton, 12,000 btu and a 2nd > spare for day use. The spare is rarely needed. These are near 30 SEER, > the most expensive model in each make. LG, Mitsu, Fujitsu.  Just after > dawn when the array is lit, we drop the program temp to 74 or so. > > Most HVAC will tell you this won't work. I have been doing this since > 2007 when they started coming out in the US. They sip power at night > like a small child :) The HVAC people have the mentality that you need > to cool a hot house down in 30 minutes and that is how they size. > Offgrid, we never let it get that hot, as we live there and can leave > it on. There is no power bill except the big one at the beginning! > > There are a few other strategies I use also.  Right now it is full > smoke here from the wildfires, the whole 1800 sqft house is using 400 > watts and it is 74 in and 86 outside. We often have 100 degree weather > and it does use more. In smoke like this, the split pressurizes the > home and aids in keeping smoke outside also. That is a very nice > thing. Some of the folks in the area just got PG &E back after the > PSPS. Not fun for them! Take a peek at my picture link on the webpage > below. > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 15:51:39 -0600, Ray wrote: > >> What size Air Conditioners? Those seem like really small battery >> banks for that.  I suppose they just run in the day mostly when the >> sun is shinning? >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 9/12/20 3:25 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>> >>> I have 5 clients in Florida running mini-split heat pumps offgrid. >>> The smallest is a 13 kwh useable and the rest running L16 2v cells @ >>> 48v nominal.  Not trying to be a contrarian but with a 2,000 square >>> foot house with great insulation and SEER numbers around 30, it is >>> not that hard. Need alot of solar, and virtual tracking for the >>> afternoon thunderstorms in the south also. >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 12:54:39 -0400, Jason Szumlanski >>> wrote: >>> >>> 54kWh doesn't go far for air conditioning in September in >>> Southwest Florida. Trust me. Most homes have $200+ electric >>> bills at $0.10/kWh this time of year, sometimes substantially more. >>> Generator backup, even with 4 Powerwalls, is necessary for >>> mission-critical grid-tied backup situations. Sadly, you can't >>> charge Powerwalls with a generator. You just bypass battery >>> storage and run loads straight off the generator, which means >>> the generator needs to be sized for the whole home. It would be >>> nice to have a generator input for supplemental charging at >>> least with a small portable unit. >>> There is no perfect solution for this application. At least no >>> cost-effective solution. >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 6:06 PM August Goers >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Hi Bill - >>> I completely agree with your statement about all off-grid >>> applications. Most if not all need generators. And, I do >>> think there are some grid tied applications where generators >>> make sense too, especially for folks who live way out in the >>> woods as you mention. I was speaking about the mass market >>> in CA in cities or towns where the grid is typically fairly >>> reliable. If you install four Powerwalls, for example, you >>> have up to 54 kWh of storage available. There are >>> applications where generators make sense, and all these >>> fires and smoke and heat waves prove the point. I think AC >>> is critical for some parts of the country, and energy >>> storage + PV alone just won't cut it for those critical >>> applications. >>> But, yes, good point. >>> August >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 2:33 PM frenergy >> > wrote: >>> >>> August, >>> >>>             Quite frankly and with due respect about the >>> comment about more PV and battery to forego the need for >>> a generator, I disagree. Those folks living off-grid in >>> the sticks (um,er, myself included), it would be a very >>> bad thing not to have Gen input.  The current situation >>> here in Plumas county  (and many other counties right >>> now) is another perfect example.  It is so smokey that >>> my daily KWhrs has been cut in half and of course every >>> other off-grid home is having the same issue. This has >>> been going on for almost a month with only occasional >>> breaks.  There are also CC failures, FET board craps >>> out, other excrement occurs. >>> >>>             We all know there are many critical needs >>> for power especially to run a pump for fire protection, >>> frig for food, communication to know what the hell may >>> coming your way during some event (fire, flood, bad >>> weather) medical needs, etc.  In the winter there are at >>> least a few times when there is little or no sun for 1 >>> maybe 2 weeks...that gets to be a spendy array and >>> battery. Certainly, the idea of going that route works >>> for some scenarios but not off-grid. Generators are >>> still a much needed necessary evil.  Maybe its a big >>> deal to incorporate that feature in an inverter??  >>> Sounds like bean counting. >>> >>> My $.02 worth >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> www.frenergy.net >>> >>> On 9/11/2020 1:01 PM, August Goers wrote: >>> >>> In CA the market for ESS is primarily grid tied >>> support features driven by SGIP + backup (public >>> safety power shutoffs, folks who live in less stable >>> grid areas, folks worried about natural disasters) >>> so the ESS is designed to replace generators. This >>> might be a little trickier for areas that need air >>> conditioning during a grid outage (or for all >>> electric homes), but one tactic is just to go bigger >>> with the ESS and PV system. I guess what I'm saying >>> is that the value proposition might already be >>> getting better just to skip the generator and go >>> bigger with the storage. Even Generac might be going >>> that route. >>> August >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:52 AM Jason Szumlanski >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> We are seeing tons of companies in Florida >>> offering Generac/Pika now. They didn't do it >>> when it was Pika, so why would they now that it >>> has an orange label? Crazy. >>> No generator input makes zero sense and even >>> less sense for a generator manufacturer. >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:58 PM Chris Schaefer >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> Jeremy, >>> Pika was bought out by Generac and rebranded >>> as their PWR cell. Most of the old crew from >>> Pika are now working for Generac. It's >>> beyond me that Generac bought them and yet >>> they still don't have a generator input. >>> That's why I could never sign on to the Pika >>> product line. Good luck. >>> Christopher >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:00 AM Jeremy >>> Rodriguez >> > wrote: >>> >>> If anyone has any info on how to get a >>> hold of The former PIKA ENERGY support >>> group, please contact me off list. >>> Or if anyone knows where one could get >>> one of their inverters rebuilt/repaired >>> let me know. >>> >>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>> Solar Installation / Design Expert >>> All Solar, Inc. >>> 1463 M St >>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos >>> and shorthand. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> Virus-free. www.avast.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Sep 13 16:10:14 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 14:10:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback NEC 2020 Compliance? Message-ID: I'm taking a Mike Holt course on NEC 2020 changes for my license renewal, and I just came across these changes in 408.18.  They apply to Switchboards and Switch gear, which the Outback GS Load center qualifies as.  The new requirements do not allow arrangements that require the installer to reach across uninsulated, ungrounded terminals or busses in order to make connections. As has been brought up on this list before, the GS load center is a nightmare to work in, with the main shunt, negative buss, and ground buss buried behind layers of other equipment, including both ungrounded AC and DC  exposed breaker terminals. I'm pretty sure they added this new code section to address equipment just like this.  Outback? are you finally going to fix this, and give us a better load center to work with? -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Sep 13 16:28:36 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 13:28:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Pika_Support_by_chance=3F?= In-Reply-To: <3820de14-b6f2-98f2-8510-ad7b9cd82c3f@solarray.com> References: <1ada6ca4e61ff4b7398f2a98180809fe@127.0.0.1> <0c666ecb3c784abbcf16fee03d539a74@127.0.0.1> <3820de14-b6f2-98f2-8510-ad7b9cd82c3f@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray there really is not much different thermal mass than any other modern well maintained home. These homes are 2 x 6 walls, R60 in the ceilings and common sense window coverings. Pretty much standard offgrid for those who can afford it. They want to succeed in one the hardest climates. The Southeast US and the tropics for that matter are tuff. Easier to heat in Alaska I think. The Afternoon high heat is carried by the mini-split and a southwestern array. The morning recool, down from 77f, is the southeast array. Full on, a quality 1 ton is pulling 1400 watts or so when the variable speed compressor is at max rpm. The speed/power is controlled by the differential of programmed temp to actual. Short of that, on lousy days in cooling season, it is either the large battery or a genset. This system cooling strategy also works because I also lived in the tropics for a decade. Lot's of happy customers :) They love winter in the southeast. The mean season for now in the southeast, just like here in the Sierra with 700 feet of smoke visibility Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 13:25:08 -0600, Ray wrote: I was involved in Btu calculations in a previous life. Most HVAC folks over kill it, instead of really doing the detailed room by room calcs. My guess is that your systems are working because: A)There is really good insulation and air seal. B) there is enough thermal mass to carry the house through the high heat of the late afternoons. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/12/20 5:09 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Hi Ray, They run at night set at 77f. We use a 1 ton, 12,000 btu and a 2nd spare for day use. The spare is rarely needed. These are near 30 SEER, the most expensive model in each make. LG, Mitsu, Fujitsu. Just after dawn when the array is lit, we drop the program temp to 74 or so. Most HVAC will tell you this won't work. I have been doing this since 2007 when they started coming out in the US. They sip power at night like a small child :) The HVAC people have the mentality that you need to cool a hot house down in 30 minutes and that is how they size. Offgrid, we never let it get that hot, as we live there and can leave it on. There is no power bill except the big one at the beginning! There are a few other strategies I use also. Right now it is full smoke here from the wildfires, the whole 1800 sqft house is using 400 watts and it is 74 in and 86 outside. We often have 100 degree weather and it does use more. In smoke like this, the split pressurizes the home and aids in keeping smoke outside also. That is a very nice thing. Some of the folks in the area just got PG ">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [4] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 15:51:39 -0600, Ray [5] wrote: What size Air Conditioners? Those seem like really small battery banks for that. I suppose they just run in the day mostly when the sun is shinning? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/12/20 3:25 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: I have 5 clients in Florida running mini-split heat pumps offgrid. The smallest is a 13 kwh useable and the rest running L16 2v cells @ 48v nominal. Not trying to be a contrarian but with a 2,000 square foot house with great insulation and SEER numbers around 30, it is not that hard. Need alot of solar, and virtual tracking for the afternoon thunderstorms in the south also. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [6] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [7] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 12:54:39 -0400, Jason Szumlanski [8] wrote: 54kWh doesn't go far for air conditioning in September in Southwest Florida. Trust me. Most homes have $200+ electric bills at $0.10/kWh this time of year, sometimes substantially more. Generator backup, even with 4 Powerwalls, is necessary for mission-critical grid-tied backup situations. Sadly, you can't charge Powerwalls with a generator. You just bypass battery storage and run loads straight off the generator, which means the generator needs to be sized for the whole home. It would be nice to have a generator input for supplemental charging at least with a small portable unit. There is no perfect solution for this application. At least no cost-effective solution. On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 6:06 PM August Goers wrote: Hi Bill - I completely agree with your statement about all off-grid applications. Most if not all need generators. And, I do think there are some grid tied applications where generators make sense too, especially for folks who live way out in the woods as you mention. I was speaking about the mass market in CA in cities or towns where the grid is typically fairly reliable. If you install four Powerwalls, for example, you have up to 54 kWh of storage available. There are applications where generators make sense, and all these fires and smoke and heat waves prove the point. I think AC is critical for some parts of the country, and energy storage + PV alone just won't cut it for those critical applications. But, yes, good point. August On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 2:33 PM frenergy wrote: August, Quite frankly and with due respect about the comment about more PV and battery to forego the need for a generator, I disagree. Those folks living off-grid in the sticks (um,er, myself included), it would be a very bad thing not to have Gen input. The current situation here in Plumas county (and many other counties right now) is another perfect example. It is so smokey that my daily KWhrs has been cut in half and of course every other off-grid home is having the same issue. This has been going on for almost a month with only occasional breaks. There are also CC failures, FET board craps out, other excrement occurs. We all know there are many critical needs for power especially to run a pump for fire protection, frig for food, communication to know what the hell may coming your way during some event (fire, flood, bad weather) medical needs, etc. In the winter there are at least a few times when there is little or no sun for 1 maybe 2 weeks...that gets to be a spendy array and battery. Certainly, the idea of going that route works for some scenarios but not off-grid. Generators are still a much needed necessary evil. Maybe its a big deal to incorporate that feature in an inverter?? Sounds like bean counting. My $.02 worth Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net [11] On 9/11/2020 1:01 PM, August Goers wrote: In CA the market for ESS is primarily grid tied support features driven by SGIP + backup (public safety power shutoffs, folks who live in less stable grid areas, folks worried about natural disasters) so the ESS is designed to replace generators. This might be a little trickier for areas that need air conditioning during a grid outage (or for all electric homes), but one tactic is just to go bigger with the ESS and PV system. I guess what I'm saying is that the value proposition might already be getting better just to skip the generator and go bigger with the storage. Even Generac might be going that route. August On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:52 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: We are seeing tons of companies in Florida offering Generac/Pika now. They didn't do it when it was Pika, so why would they now that it has an orange label? Crazy. No generator input makes zero sense and even less sense for a generator manufacturer. On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:58 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: Jeremy, Pika was bought out by Generac and rebranded as their PWR cell. Most of the old crew from Pika are now working for Generac. It's beyond me that Generac bought them and yet they still don't have a generator input. That's why I could never sign on to the Pika product line. Good luck. Christopher On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:00 AM Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: If anyone has any info on how to get a hold of The former PIKA ENERGY support group, please contact me off list. Or if anyone knows where one could get one of their inverters rebuilt/repaired let me know. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. 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URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Sun Sep 13 17:27:34 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 14:27:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback NEC 2020 Compliance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7baff1f9-6642-6569-8cb8-d5ea8f78e2e8@coveoregon.com> Don't just nag on Outback. It's the same issue with the Schneider Electric XW distribution panel and with the Midnite E-panels. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 9/13/2020 1:10 PM, Ray wrote: > I'm taking a Mike Holt course on NEC 2020 changes for my license > renewal, and I just came across these changes in 408.18.  They apply > to Switchboards and Switch gear, which the Outback GS Load center > qualifies as.  The new requirements do not allow arrangements that > require the installer to reach across uninsulated, ungrounded > terminals or busses in order to make connections. > > As has been brought up on this list before, the GS load center is a > nightmare to work in, with the main shunt, negative buss, and ground > buss buried behind layers of other equipment, including both > ungrounded AC and DC  exposed breaker terminals. > > I'm pretty sure they added this new code section to address equipment > just like this.  Outback? are you finally going to fix this, and give > us a better load center to work with? > From Bryan at pv-cables.com Mon Sep 14 11:30:07 2020 From: Bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 08:30:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Getting Enphase IQ Cable into J Boxes In-Reply-To: References: <01bc01d68874$8ed7cea0$ac876be0$@pv-cables.com> Message-ID: <00da01d68aab$edb2b140$c91813c0$@pv-cables.com> Jason, Thanks for the correction, I had it wrong in our system. I checked in our warehouse and the ½” does not have a skinned over membrane, there is not an –SM on that particular part number. We stock both sizes. Bryan Norkunas bryan at pv-cables.com Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140 PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com Description: Description: cid:image002.jpg at 01CD22E8.974B6470 Please print only if necessary. NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 10:05 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Getting Enphase IQ Cable into J Boxes Bryan, I'm happy to see you have these. But the Heyco catalog doesn't show a -SM for the 1/2" part. They only show a 1/2" for a single tray cable with no bare, the M3231GCZ that is on your website. Are you saying there is another one not listed in the catalog that does have a bare and is skinned over? https://heyco-products.com/media/pdf/ec/35/10/LTC-Enphase-Q-and-Helios-UVX-ClipecNgmD5A3WCBf.pdf If you bring in the M3234GDA-SM, I'm a buyer. I prefer this one to reduce stock parts since it's good for one or two cable entries and one or zero bare wires. I had been using the Arlington NMUF50 for single Q Cable entry and a similar gland for bare wire. This one part from Heyco simplifies everything. Jason On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 3:48 PM Bryan Norkunas wrote: M3231GCZ-SM is the part number for the ½” version, Though the ½” version only accepting a single 12/2 tray cable with bare ground. We see a bigger demand for the ½ vs the ¾” Bryan Norkunas bryan at pv-cables.com Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140 PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com Description: Description: cid:image002.jpg at 01CD22E8.974B6470 Please print only if necessary. NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Friday, September 11, 2020 12:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Getting Enphase IQ Cable into J Boxes Just a quick tip for those of you installing Enphase. I recently discovered there is a Heyco connector for TWO Enphase IQ cables and a bare ground in a single 3/4" knockout. This has saved us a bunch of time. The rubber gland is prepunched, but you can also use it for a single IQ cable since it is not punched all the way through. Part number is M3234GDA-SM, available through Mouser, Rexel, anyone who sells Heyco I would imagine. image.png Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group Image removed by sender. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Image removed by sender. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 27561 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1367 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 62008 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Bryan at pv-cables.com Mon Sep 14 15:03:51 2020 From: Bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 12:03:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? In-Reply-To: References: <021901d68608$89caadb0$9d600910$@pv-cables.com> <003401d6861d$fe74f660$fb5ee320$@mindspring.com> <98687ab7-a3b0-b611-ab9d-59a5bf61197e@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <030d01d68ac9$c9488140$5bd983c0$@pv-cables.com> Sol Ark related: – we often get requests for their batteries and there seems to be a shortage at the moment and stock will not be available until mid to late Nov. Below a response we received this morning from Sol Ark: Due to the shortage we are trying to make sure batteries are being used with Sol-Ark systems. This is the only reason we carry them. Not really a supply house for batteries. We also only recommend our batteries for back-up mostly and not really for Time of Use. Also, battery pack should be over-sized if they are going to use it for Time of Use. Bryan Norkunas bryan at pv-cables.com Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140 PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com Description: Description: cid:image002.jpg at 01CD22E8.974B6470 Please print only if necessary. NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2020 1:33 PM To: Jeff Clearwater Cc: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? Related question, Jeff... With the Sol-Ark, I an off-grid situation can you set it up to always use inveters to power loads. In other words, when the generator kicks in, only use the generator to charge batteries and do not bypass inveters to power loads directly from the generator. This is a request I get occasionally. People don't want to rely on the "dirty" generator power with sensitive electronics. Jason On Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 1:19 PM Jeff Clearwater wrote: I'm loving my first install of Sol Arks - One downside of Sol-Ark (and I can't find many!) is that the GEN terminal can only handle 1 of the following 3: Generator, AC Coupling, or Smart Load. So if you want both a generator and AC coupling you have to either do a separate transfer switch for the GEN and not run it through the inverters - or you have to go with their internal DC MPPTif you do want the GEN to charge the batteries (unless you are off-grid totally and have no Grid in which case you might be able to run the Generator into Grid? not sure about that - don't quote me!). Anyone else with any downsides? Best, Jeff Jason Szumlanski wrote on 9/10/20 4:44 AM: There is a huge distinction in a hybrid inverter that integrates MPPT charge control. Eliminating all of the extraneous hardware and circuit protection associated with charge controllers is very appealing. The 500V input limit is also a game-changer in terms of wire size. I'm very interested in this approach. On the flip size, an AC Coupled approach is also appealing in a lot of circumstances. Since Sol-Ark supports that, too, it's hard to find downsides other than their infancy in the industry. And for what it's worth, my experience with SMA tech support recently has been abysmal. Long hold times and getting bounced around departments. Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 9:50 PM Mark Frye wrote: The most important thing here is that no one is standing up to sing the praises of either SMA or Outback. I myself have sent about 2 hours on hold over 2 days trying to get an issue addressed by SMA. Re: Sol-Arc I would pay a lot extra or take some not so good aspect in exchange for good technical support. On 9/9/2020 1:12 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Any tips on combining AC output from these units when stacking several of them? What bus/OCPD system are you using? Same question for generator/grid input. The solar MPPT inputs appear to be dead simple. Jason Szumlanski On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM MiJo Nels wrote: we've found SolArk to be SOLID!! .. And yes 8 inv yield about 96kW, with a TON of surge capabilities.. Joe Nelson Project Manager C-46/C-10 Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation CSL# 868816 www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com 530-273-4422 (Office) 530-217-8385 (Cell)      _____ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of pgiroux at mindspring.com Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:24:03 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? I also suggest the Sol-Ark 12’s. Extremely efficient, simple to program, does a wonderful job in either ac coupling, stand alone or pure off grid and terrific customer support. Peter Giroux ASAE From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Bryan Norkunas Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:50 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? Sol-Arks would be possible, you can link 8 inverters. Bryan PV-Cables From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 10:40 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other? I'd suggest giving the crew at Sol-Ark a quick call @ 972-575-8875 with their 12kw unit. Not sure what their max number of inverters are. Christopher On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:14 PM Kienan Maxfield wrote: Hey all, I'm designing a microgrid sized off-grid system for somebody, and I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any issues with the following designs... The client says he needs 70 kW. His load data looks pretty solid, so I'm sticking to using that number as a minimum, at least during the initial proposal stage. I only know of two possible equipment options for this size range... 1. I think I can use up to 10 Outback Radians, for up to an 80 kW system. Are there any bugs or problems with using this many inverters on one hub? I know I've read about issues with selling to the grid, but that's not an issue, this is off-grid. 2. I know that the SMA cluster box with sunny islands can allow for up to a 72 kW system. Do you know of any bugs or problems with this system? Are there any other options that anyone would suggest? Schneider's website says they can only do up to 61 kW, and Victron can only do up to 60 kW. I know that the Outback system would yield a 240/120 Split-Phase system and that the SMA would yield a 208/120 3Ø system, but this doesn't really matter either way for this job. Thanks so much, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s Image removed bysender. Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Image removedby sender. Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Image removed by sender. Virus-free. www.avg.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Image removed by sender. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater VillageLab Village Power Design linkedin www.villagelab.net www.villagepowerdesign.com skype - jclearwater zoom by request cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD149.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 27561 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1367 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Sep 14 21:46:50 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 19:46:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Pump Drives for other motors Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, Has anyone put to use the solar drives such as the ABB solar pump drive for other motor applications? I'd like to power a 2HP regenerative blower on solar direct if possible. I don't know why it wouldn't work but they are pretty specific when talking about pumps. Thanks! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Sep 14 23:49:35 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 23:49:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another pump quesiton Message-ID: Hi All, I need to replace 3-5 El Sid pumps I'm using in a low volume hydronic heating system. Other than laing pumps, are there any recommendations for 12, 24, or 48 vDC pumps? Having magnetic drives that mate with the impeller body of the El Sids, would be a bonus. Thanks, Howie *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Tue Sep 15 00:33:46 2020 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 22:33:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another pump quesiton In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Howie, I’ve had this same quandary when working with some specialty Pv-powered solar thermal projects. I really like the Laing pumps but they are very expensive and the D5 Solar version can be hard to get. Recently I’ve tried the Chinese-made Topsflo DC pumps and despite some initial skepticism, have been pleasantly surprised at how well they have worked. A major plus for retrofit/replacement is that the Topsflo TD5 uses a volute that is essentially a clone of the El-Sid pump body-albeit in stainless rather than bronze. I have to say that I haven’t actually tried a retrofit using the Topsflo motor with an El-Sid pump body and impeller, but I suspect that it will work. At the very least the pump body is a perfect replacement for pipework set up for El-SIDS. I have a Topsflo TD5 working in a PV-powered hot-tub heater setup that has been working daily for almost 4 years now with no issues, so the quality seems pretty decent. Luke Christy Renewable energy consultant NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO 81144 sgsrenewables at gmail.com 719.588.3044 > On Sep 14, 2020, at 21:49, Howie Michaelson wrote: > >  > Hi All, > I need to replace 3-5 El Sid pumps I'm using in a low volume hydronic heating system. Other than laing pumps, are there any recommendations for 12, 24, or 48 vDC pumps? Having magnetic drives that mate with the impeller body of the El Sids, would be a bonus. > Thanks, > Howie > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Sep 15 00:34:47 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 21:34:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another pump quesiton In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches March has a variety of 12, 24 VDC and 120 VAC pumps Jerry On Mon, Sep 14, 2020, 8:49 PM Howie Michaelson wrote: > Hi All, > I need to replace 3-5 El Sid pumps I'm using in a low volume hydronic > heating system. Other than laing pumps, are there any recommendations for > 12, 24, or 48 vDC pumps? Having magnetic drives that mate with the > impeller body of the El Sids, would be a bonus. > Thanks, > Howie > > *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* > > *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* > > *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Tue Sep 15 00:35:49 2020 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 22:35:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another pump quesiton In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howie, As far as I know, and I have not researched this, The El Sid drivers mate to the pump bodies used with March 809BR and 809BR-HS hydronic pumps. The March pumps use brush-type conventional 12 and 24V DC motors. I have heard, but can't confirm, that Dan Fieldman developed the El Sid (Static Impeller Driver) when he worked at March, or after he left them. I have both March 809BRs and El Sid 10Bs in my off grid hydronic system. Both work equally well, both eventually fail (and not on much of a predictable schedule), both are expensive little buggers, and the El Sids are noticeably quieter. Allan On 9/14/2020 9:49 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > Hi All, > I need to replace 3-5 El Sid pumps I'm using in a low volume hydronic > heating system.  Other than laing pumps, are there any recommendations > for 12, 24, or 48 vDC pumps?  Having magnetic drives that mate with > the impeller body of the El Sids, would be a bonus. > Thanks, > Howie > *Howie Michaelson > **Sun Catcher* > *****/NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > /** > **Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004* -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Tue Sep 15 09:29:08 2020 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 09:29:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika Support by chance? In-Reply-To: References: <1ada6ca4e61ff4b7398f2a98180809fe@127.0.0.1> <0c666ecb3c784abbcf16fee03d539a74@127.0.0.1> <3820de14-b6f2-98f2-8510-ad7b9cd82c3f@solarray.com> Message-ID: Speaking of PIKA support...are there some installations out there with the PIKA wind turbine included. I would like to hear about how well they worked grid tie or off grid. My only experience is with the off grid version which is still working fine. My run with keeping Bergey XL.1’s flying is getting more difficult due to lack of parts. All my scrapped units due to tower crashes are mostly all cannibalized. Still close to 30 still running. Wind turbines do work well in hot dry winds which seem to be increasing these days. John Blittersdorf CV Wind Service On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 4:28 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Ray there really is not much different thermal mass than any other modern > well maintained home. These homes are 2 x 6 walls, R60 in the ceilings and > common sense window coverings. > > > Pretty much standard offgrid for those who can afford it. They want to > succeed in one the hardest climates. The Southeast US and the tropics for > that matter are tuff. Easier to heat in Alaska I think. > > > The Afternoon high heat is carried by the mini-split and a southwestern > array. The morning recool, down from 77f, is the southeast array. > > > Full on, a quality 1 ton is pulling 1400 watts or so when the variable > speed compressor is at max rpm. The speed/power is controlled by the > differential of programmed temp to actual. > > > Short of that, on lousy days in cooling season, it is either the large > battery or a genset. > > > This system cooling strategy also works because I also lived in the > tropics for a decade. Lot's of happy customers :) They love winter in the > southeast. The mean season for now in the southeast, just like here in the > Sierra with 700 feet of smoke visibility [image: Wink] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar"we go where powerlines don't"http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060* > > > > > > On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 13:25:08 -0600, Ray wrote: > > > > > I was involved in Btu calculations in a previous life. Most HVAC folks > over kill it, instead of really doing the detailed room by room calcs. > > > My guess is that your systems are working because: > > > A)There is really good insulation and air seal. > > > B) there is enough thermal mass to carry the house through the high heat > of the late afternoons. > > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > 303 505-8760 > > > > On 9/12/20 5:09 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > > > > Hi Ray, > > > They run at night set at 77f. We use a 1 ton, 12,000 btu and a 2nd spare > for day use. The spare is rarely needed. These are near 30 SEER, the most > expensive model in each make. LG, Mitsu, Fujitsu. Just after dawn when the > array is lit, we drop the program temp to 74 or so. > > > Most HVAC will tell you this won't work. I have been doing this since 2007 > when they started coming out in the US. They sip power at night like a > small child :) The HVAC people have the mentality that you need to cool a > hot house down in 30 minutes and that is how they size. Offgrid, we never > let it get that hot, as we live there and can leave it on. There is no > power bill except the big one at the beginning! > > > There are a few other strategies I use also. Right now it is full smoke > here from the wildfires, the whole 1800 sqft house is using 400 watts and > it is 74 in and 86 outside. We often have 100 degree weather and it does > use more. In smoke like this, the split pressurizes the home and aids in > keeping smoke outside also. That is a very nice thing. Some of the folks in > the area just got PG &E back after the PSPS. Not fun for them! Take a peek > at my picture link on the webpage below. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar"we go where powerlines don't"http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060* > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 15:51:39 -0600, Ray > wrote: > > > > > What size Air Conditioners? Those seem like really small battery banks for > that. I suppose they just run in the day mostly when the sun is shinning? > > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > 303 505-8760 > > > > On 9/12/20 3:25 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > > > > I have 5 clients in Florida running mini-split heat pumps offgrid. The > smallest is a 13 kwh useable and the rest running L16 2v cells @ 48v > nominal. Not trying to be a contrarian but with a 2,000 square foot house > with great insulation and SEER numbers around 30, it is not that hard. Need > alot of solar, and virtual tracking for the afternoon thunderstorms in the > south also. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar"we go where powerlines don't"http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060* > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 12:54:39 -0400, Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > 54kWh doesn't go far for air conditioning in September in Southwest > Florida. Trust me. Most homes have $200+ electric bills at $0.10/kWh this > time of year, sometimes substantially more. > > > > > > Generator backup, even with 4 Powerwalls, is necessary for > mission-critical grid-tied backup situations. Sadly, you can't charge > Powerwalls with a generator. You just bypass battery storage and run loads > straight off the generator, which means the generator needs to be sized for > the whole home. It would be nice to have a generator input for supplemental > charging at least with a small portable unit. > > > > > > There is no perfect solution for this application. At least no > cost-effective solution. > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 6:06 PM August Goers wrote: > > > >> >> Hi Bill - >> >> >> >> >> I completely agree with your statement about all off-grid applications. >> Most if not all need generators. And, I do think there are some grid tied >> applications where generators make sense too, especially for folks who live >> way out in the woods as you mention. I was speaking about the mass market >> in CA in cities or towns where the grid is typically fairly reliable. If >> you install four Powerwalls, for example, you have up to 54 kWh of storage >> available. There are applications where generators make sense, and all >> these fires and smoke and heat waves prove the point. I think AC is >> critical for some parts of the country, and energy storage + PV alone just >> won't cut it for those critical applications. >> >> >> >> >> >> But, yes, good point. >> >> >> >> >> >> August >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 2:33 PM frenergy wrote: >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> August, >>> >>> >>> Quite frankly and with due respect about the comment about >>> more PV and battery to forego the need for a generator, I disagree. Those >>> folks living off-grid in the sticks (um,er, myself included), it would be a >>> very bad thing not to have Gen input. The current situation here in Plumas >>> county (and many other counties right now) is another perfect example. It >>> is so smokey that my daily KWhrs has been cut in half and of course every >>> other off-grid home is having the same issue. This has been going on for >>> almost a month with only occasional breaks. There are also CC failures, >>> FET board craps out, other excrement occurs. >>> >>> >>> We all know there are many critical needs for power >>> especially to run a pump for fire protection, frig for food, communication >>> to know what the hell may coming your way during some event (fire, flood, >>> bad weather) medical needs, etc. In the winter there are at least a few >>> times when there is little or no sun for 1 maybe 2 weeks...that gets to be >>> a spendy array and battery. Certainly, the idea of going that route works >>> for some scenarios but not off-grid. Generators are still a much needed >>> necessary evil. Maybe its a big deal to incorporate that feature in an >>> inverter?? Sounds like bean counting. >>> >>> >>> My $.02 worth >>> >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> >>> 530.284.7849 >>> >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> >>> www.frenergy.net >>> >>> >>> >>> On 9/11/2020 1:01 PM, August Goers wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> In CA the market for ESS is primarily grid tied support features driven >>> by SGIP + backup (public safety power shutoffs, folks who live in less >>> stable grid areas, folks worried about natural disasters) so the ESS is >>> designed to replace generators. This might be a little trickier for areas >>> that need air conditioning during a grid outage (or for all electric >>> homes), but one tactic is just to go bigger with the ESS and PV system. I >>> guess what I'm saying is that the value proposition might already be >>> getting better just to skip the generator and go bigger with the storage. >>> Even Generac might be going that route. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> August >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:52 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We are seeing tons of companies in Florida offering Generac/Pika now. >>>> They didn't do it when it was Pika, so why would they now that it has an >>>> orange label? Crazy. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No generator input makes zero sense and even less sense for a generator >>>> manufacturer. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:58 PM Chris Schaefer < >>>> chris at solarandwindfx.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jeremy, >>>>> >>>>> Pika was bought out by Generac and rebranded as their PWR cell. Most >>>>> of the old crew from Pika are now working for Generac. It's beyond me that >>>>> Generac bought them and yet they still don't have a generator input. That's >>>>> why I could never sign on to the Pika product line. Good luck. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Christopher >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:00 AM Jeremy Rodriguez < >>>>> allsolarjeremy at msn.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If anyone has any info on how to get a hold of The former PIKA ENERGY >>>>>> support group, please contact me off list. >>>>>> >>>>>> Or if anyone knows where one could get one of their inverters >>>>>> rebuilt/repaired let me know. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>>>>> >>>>>> Solar Installation / Design Expert >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> All Solar, Inc. >>>>>> >>>>>> 1463 M St >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Virus-free. www.avast.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Sep 15 10:28:53 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 07:28:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another pump quesiton In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2857c2c3bad34edf3bc058ac130d77f6@127.0.0.1> Why did the El Sid fail? The one way I have seen them fail, and any pump for that matter is rain water that has (for some reason) lower than a normal PH. Below from wiki. Normal, clean rain has a PH value of between 5.0 and 5.5, which is slightly acidic. However, when rain combines with sulfur dioxide or nitrogen oxides--produced from power plants and automobiles--the rain becomes much more acidic. Typical acid rain has a PH value of 4.0. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 23:49:35 -0400, Howie Michaelson wrote: Hi All, I need to replace 3-5 El Sid pumps I'm using in a low volume hydronic heating system. Other than laing pumps, are there any recommendations for 12, 24, or 48 vDC pumps? Having magnetic drives that mate with the impeller body of the El Sids, would be a bonus. Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson SUN CATCHER NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(tm) Solar Electric Systems Sales ">802-272-0004 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Sep 15 23:57:12 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 23:57:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another pump quesiton In-Reply-To: <2857c2c3bad34edf3bc058ac130d77f6@127.0.0.1> References: <2857c2c3bad34edf3bc058ac130d77f6@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Dave, I used to use El Sids a lot in SHW systems with direct PV drive for the glycol circulation. I've long stopped installing SHW, but have used them in off grid hydronic heat systems as well. The electronics have failed on many of these pumps over the years. They seem particularly intolerant of higher voltages, even small ones, which if they are being driven off battery voltage, is hard to avoid. None-the-less while I really liked the El Sids, they were too expensive to have as many failures as they did. I'm familiar with March pumps as well, but they always seem to fail prematurely as well, for even more money. I was hoping there might be a suitable replacement for a somewhat less expensive alternative. Howie *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 10:29 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Why did the El Sid fail? The one way I have seen them fail, and any pump > for that matter is rain water that has (for some reason) lower than a > normal PH. Below from wiki. > > Normal, clean rain has a *pH* value of between 5.0 and 5.5, which is > slightly acidic. However, when rain combines with sulfur dioxide or > nitrogen oxides—produced from power plants and automobiles—the rain becomes > much more acidic. Typical acid rain has a *pH* value of 4.0. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 23:49:35 -0400, Howie Michaelson < > Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi All, > I need to replace 3-5 El Sid pumps I'm using in a low volume hydronic > heating system. Other than laing pumps, are there any recommendations for > 12, 24, or 48 vDC pumps? Having magnetic drives that mate with the > impeller body of the El Sids, would be a bonus. > Thanks, > Howie > > *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* > > *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* > > *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Sep 16 00:29:20 2020 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 22:29:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another pump quesiton In-Reply-To: References: <2857c2c3bad34edf3bc058ac130d77f6@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: This has been my experience as well, although I can't give such specific rationale as to why the El Sids failed - the electronics just usually and eventually fail in my battery-based hydronic system. The Marches just eventually wear out. Allan On 9/15/2020 9:57 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > Dave, > I used to use El Sids a lot in SHW systems with direct PV drive for > the glycol circulation.  I've long stopped installing SHW, but have > used them in off grid hydronic heat systems as well. The electronics > have failed on many of these pumps over the years.  They seem > particularly intolerant of higher voltages, even small ones, which if > they are being driven off battery voltage, is hard to avoid.  > None-the-less while I really liked the El Sids, they were too > expensive to have as many failures as they did. I'm familiar with > March pumps as well, but they always seem to fail prematurely as well, > for even more money. I was hoping there might be a suitable > replacement for  a somewhat less expensive alternative. > Howie > *Howie Michaelson > **Sun Catcher* > *****/NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > /** > **Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004* > > > On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 10:29 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > wrote: > > Why did the El Sid fail? The one way I have seen them fail, and > any pump for that matter is rain water that has (for some reason) > lower than a normal PH. Below from wiki. > > Normal, clean rain has a *pH* value of between 5.0 and 5.5, which > is slightly acidic. However, when rain combines with sulfur > dioxide or nitrogen oxides—produced from power plants and > automobiles—the rain becomes much more acidic. Typical acid rain > has a *pH* value of 4.0. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 23:49:35 -0400, Howie Michaelson > > > wrote: > >> Hi All, >> I need to replace 3-5 El Sid pumps I'm using in a low volume >> hydronic heating system.  Other than laing pumps, are there any >> recommendations for 12, 24, or 48 vDC pumps?  Having magnetic >> drives that mate with the impeller body of the El Sids, would be >> a bonus. >> Thanks, >> Howie >> *Howie Michaelson >> **Sun Catcher* >> */NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> /** >> **Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service >> 802-272-0004* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Sep 16 11:55:31 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 09:55:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another pump quesiton In-Reply-To: References: <2857c2c3bad34edf3bc058ac130d77f6@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: I've always suspected that one of the issues was the variable voltage of DC systems.  Batteries get low, and the current increases quite a bit, cold weather or EQing and the voltage can get really high and cause problems.  The total variation just seems to take out a fair bit of both brushes and controls.  This is just my long standing theory however, and I don't have Lab results. I actually had similar problems on 120 vac, when I lived on the edge of the grid.  Voltage varied from 90 to 145 vac, and cooked quite a few things like washing machine controls (every 3 months or so)  Once I put in a backup power system to protect those circuits, the controls lasted for a decade. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/15/20 10:29 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > > This has been my experience as well, although I can't give such > specific rationale as to why the El Sids failed - the electronics just > usually and eventually fail in my battery-based hydronic system. The > Marches just eventually wear out. > > Allan > > On 9/15/2020 9:57 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: >> Dave, >> I used to use El Sids a lot in SHW systems with direct PV drive for >> the glycol circulation.  I've long stopped installing SHW, but have >> used them in off grid hydronic heat systems as well. The electronics >> have failed on many of these pumps over the years.  They seem >> particularly intolerant of higher voltages, even small ones, which if >> they are being driven off battery voltage, is hard to avoid.  >> None-the-less while I really liked the El Sids, they were too >> expensive to have as many failures as they did. I'm familiar with >> March pumps as well, but they always seem to fail prematurely as >> well, for even more money. I was hoping there might be a suitable >> replacement for  a somewhat less expensive alternative. >> Howie >> *Howie Michaelson >> **Sun Catcher* >> *****/NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> /** >> **Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service >> 802-272-0004* >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 10:29 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> > wrote: >> >> Why did the El Sid fail? The one way I have seen them fail, and >> any pump for that matter is rain water that has (for some reason) >> lower than a normal PH. Below from wiki. >> >> Normal, clean rain has a *pH* value of between 5.0 and 5.5, which >> is slightly acidic. However, when rain combines with sulfur >> dioxide or nitrogen oxides—produced from power plants and >> automobiles—the rain becomes much more acidic. Typical acid rain >> has a *pH* value of 4.0. >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 23:49:35 -0400, Howie Michaelson >> > >> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> I need to replace 3-5 El Sid pumps I'm using in a low volume >>> hydronic heating system.  Other than laing pumps, are there any >>> recommendations for 12, 24, or 48 vDC pumps?  Having magnetic >>> drives that mate with the impeller body of the El Sids, would be >>> a bonus. >>> Thanks, >>> Howie >>> *Howie Michaelson >>> **Sun Catcher* >>> */NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >>> /** >>> **Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service >>> 802-272-0004* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Sep 16 12:13:18 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 09:13:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another pump quesiton In-Reply-To: References: <2857c2c3bad34edf3bc058ac130d77f6@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: I have not seen electronics fail in an El Cid from Ivan labs fail. Probably only 4 installed. The one here is 15 years old on my domestic hot water. The others are still working, I think. Talk to Dan at Ivan and see what he says. There was not a website really (last time I looked) but here is the number ivan labs 561-747-5354 Talk with Dan Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 09:55:31 -0600, Ray wrote: I've always suspected that one of the issues was the variable voltage of DC systems. Batteries get low, and the current increases quite a bit, cold weather or EQing and the voltage can get really high and cause problems. The total variation just seems to take out a fair bit of both brushes and controls. This is just my long standing theory however, and I don't have Lab results. I actually had similar problems on 120 vac, when I lived on the edge of the grid. Voltage varied from 90 to 145 vac, and cooked quite a few things like washing machine controls (every 3 months or so) Once I put in a backup power system to protect those circuits, the controls lasted for a decade. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/15/20 10:29 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: This has been my experience as well, although I can't give such specific rationale as to why the El Sids failed - the electronics just usually and eventually fail in my battery-based hydronic system. The Marches just eventually wear out. Allan On 9/15/2020 9:57 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: Dave, I used to use El Sids a lot in SHW systems with direct PV drive for the glycol circulation. I've long stopped installing SHW, but have used them in off grid hydronic heat systems as well. The electronics have failed on many of these pumps over the years. They seem particularly intolerant of higher voltages, even small ones, which if they are being driven off battery voltage, is hard to avoid. None-the-less while I really liked the El Sids, they were too expensive to have as many failures as they did. I'm familiar with March pumps as well, but they always seem to fail prematurely as well, for even more money. I was hoping there might be a suitable replacement for a somewhat less expensive alternative. Howie Howie Michaelson SUN CATCHER NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(tm) Solar Electric Systems Sales ">802-272-0004 On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 10:29 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Why did the El Sid fail? The one way I have seen them fail, and any pump for that matter is rain water that has (for some reason) lower than a normal PH. Below from wiki. Normal, clean rain has a PH value of between 5.0 and 5.5, which is slightly acidic. However, when rain combines with sulfur dioxide or nitrogen oxides--produced from power plants and automobiles--the rain becomes much more acidic. Typical acid rain has a PH value of 4.0. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [5] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 23:49:35 -0400, Howie Michaelson wrote: Hi All, I need to replace 3-5 El Sid pumps I'm using in a low volume hydronic heating system. Other than laing pumps, are there any recommendations for 12, 24, or 48 vDC pumps? Having magnetic drives that mate with the impeller body of the El Sids, would be a bonus. Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson SUN CATCHER NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(tm) Solar Electric Systems Sales ">802-272-0004 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] List rules ">ALLAN SINDELAR allan at sindelarsolar.com [17] NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 CELL _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [18] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [21] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [22] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [4] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [5] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [6] mailto:Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [17] mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com [18] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [19] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [21] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [22] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Sep 15 09:47:01 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 09:47:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another pump quesiton In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0dfb4f64dbfdb1d8d4076ae30045fcb1@redwoodalliance.org> Did El Sid go out of business? --- On 2020-09-14 23:49, Howie Michaelson wrote: > Hi All, > I need to replace 3-5 El Sid pumps I'm using in a low volume hydronic heating system. Other than laing pumps, are there any recommendations for 12, 24, or 48 vDC pumps? Having magnetic drives that mate with the impeller body of the El Sids, would be a bonus. > Thanks, > Howie > > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(tm) > > Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] Links: ------ [1] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Sep 14 13:30:18 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 13:30:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Getting Enphase IQ Cable into J Boxes In-Reply-To: <00da01d68aab$edb2b140$c91813c0$@pv-cables.com> References: <01bc01d68874$8ed7cea0$ac876be0$@pv-cables.com> <00da01d68aab$edb2b140$c91813c0$@pv-cables.com> Message-ID: Thanks for confirming. That's why I like the 3/4" version since it eliminates the need to use a separate fitting for a bare ground regardless of how many strings you are bringing into the junction box. I don't think most people realize it's skinned over so it can be used for 1 or 2 IQ cables plus 1 or 0 bare wires. A single part for all Enphase cable/wire entry combinations makes my life much easier. On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 11:30 AM Bryan Norkunas wrote: > Jason, > > > > Thanks for the correction, I had it wrong in our system. I checked in our > warehouse and the ½” does not have a skinned over membrane, there is not an > –SM on that particular part number. > > > > We stock both sizes. > > > > *Bryan Norkunas* > > bryan at pv-cables.com > > > > [image: Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140] > > *PV-Cables Inc. * > > *989 Milton Ave Ste 1D* > > *Ferndale CA 95536* > > (707) 923-3000 office > > www.pv-cables.com > > > > > [image: Description: Description: cid:image002.jpg at 01CD22E8.974B6470] Please > print only if necessary. > > > > NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the > intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged > information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is > prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the > sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original > message. > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Saturday, September 12, 2020 10:05 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Getting Enphase IQ Cable into J Boxes > > > > Bryan, > > > > I'm happy to see you have these. But the Heyco catalog doesn't show a -SM > for the 1/2" part. They only show a 1/2" for a single tray cable with no > bare, the M3231GCZ that is on your website. Are you saying there is another > one not listed in the catalog that does have a bare and is skinned over? > > > > > https://heyco-products.com/media/pdf/ec/35/10/LTC-Enphase-Q-and-Helios-UVX-ClipecNgmD5A3WCBf.pdf > > > > > If you bring in the M3234GDA-SM, I'm a buyer. I prefer this one to reduce > stock parts since it's good for one or two cable entries and one or zero > bare wires. > > > > I had been using the Arlington NMUF50 for single Q Cable entry and a > similar gland for bare wire. This one part from Heyco simplifies everything. > > > > Jason > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 3:48 PM Bryan Norkunas > wrote: > > M3231GCZ-SM is the part number for the ½” version, > > Though the ½” version only accepting a single 12/2 tray cable with bare > ground. > > > > We see a bigger demand for the ½ vs the ¾” > > > > > > *Bryan Norkunas* > > bryan at pv-cables.com > > > > [image: Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140] > > *PV-Cables Inc. * > > *989 Milton Ave Ste 1D* > > *Ferndale CA 95536* > > (707) 923-3000 office > > www.pv-cables.com > > > > > [image: Description: Description: cid:image002.jpg at 01CD22E8.974B6470] Please > print only if necessary. > > > > NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the > intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged > information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is > prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the > sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original > message. > > > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Friday, September 11, 2020 12:16 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Getting Enphase IQ Cable into J Boxes > > > > Just a quick tip for those of you installing Enphase. I recently > discovered there is a Heyco connector for TWO Enphase IQ cables and a bare > ground in a single 3/4" knockout. This has saved us a bunch of time. The > rubber gland is prepunched, but you can also use it for a single IQ cable > since it is not punched all the way through. > > > > Part number is M3234GDA-SM, available through Mouser, Rexel, anyone who > sells Heyco I would imagine. > > > > [image: image.png] > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 62008 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Sep 16 13:00:04 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 10:00:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another pump quesiton In-Reply-To: References: <2857c2c3bad34edf3bc058ac130d77f6@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <7aa98b83e54087f00155e86d34e8c0a3@127.0.0.1> I just dialed Ivan pumps (EL Sid) and it is disconnected. Not good! Anybody know for sure? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 09:13:18 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: I have not seen electronics fail in an El Cid from Ivan labs fail. Probably only 4 installed. The one here is 15 years old on my domestic hot water. The others are still working, I think. Talk to Dan at Ivan and see what he says. There was not a website really (last time I looked) but here is the number ivan labs 561-747-5354 Talk with Dan Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [4] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 09:55:31 -0600, Ray wrote: I've always suspected that one of the issues was the variable voltage of DC systems. Batteries get low, and the current increases quite a bit, cold weather or EQing and the voltage can get really high and cause problems. The total variation just seems to take out a fair bit of both brushes and controls. This is just my long standing theory however, and I don't have Lab results. I actually had similar problems on 120 vac, when I lived on the edge of the grid. Voltage varied from 90 to 145 vac, and cooked quite a few things like washing machine controls (every 3 months or so) Once I put in a backup power system to protect those circuits, the controls lasted for a decade. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/15/20 10:29 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: This has been my experience as well, although I can't give such specific rationale as to why the El Sids failed - the electronics just usually and eventually fail in my battery-based hydronic system. The Marches just eventually wear out. Allan On 9/15/2020 9:57 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: Dave, I used to use El Sids a lot in SHW systems with direct PV drive for the glycol circulation. I've long stopped installing SHW, but have used them in off grid hydronic heat systems as well. The electronics have failed on many of these pumps over the years. They seem particularly intolerant of higher voltages, even small ones, which if they are being driven off battery voltage, is hard to avoid. None-the-less while I really liked the El Sids, they were too expensive to have as many failures as they did. I'm familiar with March pumps as well, but they always seem to fail prematurely as well, for even more money. I was hoping there might be a suitable replacement for a somewhat less expensive alternative. Howie Howie Michaelson SUN CATCHER NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(tm) Solar Electric Systems Sales ">802-272-0004 On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 10:29 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Why did the El Sid fail? The one way I have seen them fail, and any pump for that matter is rain water that has (for some reason) lower than a normal PH. Below from wiki. Normal, clean rain has a PH value of between 5.0 and 5.5, which is slightly acidic. However, when rain combines with sulfur dioxide or nitrogen oxides--produced from power plants and automobiles--the rain becomes much more acidic. Typical acid rain has a PH value of 4.0. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [6] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [7] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 23:49:35 -0400, Howie Michaelson wrote: Hi All, I need to replace 3-5 El Sid pumps I'm using in a low volume hydronic heating system. Other than laing pumps, are there any recommendations for 12, 24, or 48 vDC pumps? Having magnetic drives that mate with the impeller body of the El Sids, would be a bonus. Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson SUN CATCHER NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(tm) Solar Electric Systems Sales ">802-272-0004 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] List rules ">ALLAN SINDELAR allan at sindelarsolar.com [19] NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 CELL _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [20] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [21] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [22] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [23] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [24] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [5] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [6] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [7] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [8] mailto:Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com [9] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [14] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [18] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [19] mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com [20] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [21] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [22] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [23] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [24] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Sep 16 13:04:16 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 10:04:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another pump quesiton In-Reply-To: <7aa98b83e54087f00155e86d34e8c0a3@127.0.0.1> References: <2857c2c3bad34edf3bc058ac130d77f6@127.0.0.1> <7aa98b83e54087f00155e86d34e8c0a3@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Here is the new number for Ivan Labs El Sid pumps. It was busy when I called (561) 401-1846 [1] Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [3] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 10:00:04 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: I just dialed Ivan pumps (EL Sid) and it is disconnected. Not good! Anybody know for sure? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [5] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 09:13:18 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: I have not seen electronics fail in an El Cid from Ivan labs fail. Probably only 4 installed. The one here is 15 years old on my domestic hot water. The others are still working, I think. Talk to Dan at Ivan and see what he says. There was not a website really (last time I looked) but here is the number ivan labs 561-747-5354 Talk with Dan Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [6] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [7] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 09:55:31 -0600, Ray wrote: I've always suspected that one of the issues was the variable voltage of DC systems. Batteries get low, and the current increases quite a bit, cold weather or EQing and the voltage can get really high and cause problems. The total variation just seems to take out a fair bit of both brushes and controls. This is just my long standing theory however, and I don't have Lab results. I actually had similar problems on 120 vac, when I lived on the edge of the grid. Voltage varied from 90 to 145 vac, and cooked quite a few things like washing machine controls (every 3 months or so) Once I put in a backup power system to protect those circuits, the controls lasted for a decade. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/15/20 10:29 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: This has been my experience as well, although I can't give such specific rationale as to why the El Sids failed - the electronics just usually and eventually fail in my battery-based hydronic system. The Marches just eventually wear out. Allan On 9/15/2020 9:57 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: Dave, I used to use El Sids a lot in SHW systems with direct PV drive for the glycol circulation. I've long stopped installing SHW, but have used them in off grid hydronic heat systems as well. The electronics have failed on many of these pumps over the years. They seem particularly intolerant of higher voltages, even small ones, which if they are being driven off battery voltage, is hard to avoid. None-the-less while I really liked the El Sids, they were too expensive to have as many failures as they did. I'm familiar with March pumps as well, but they always seem to fail prematurely as well, for even more money. I was hoping there might be a suitable replacement for a somewhat less expensive alternative. Howie Howie Michaelson SUN CATCHER NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(tm) Solar Electric Systems Sales ">802-272-0004 On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 10:29 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Why did the El Sid fail? The one way I have seen them fail, and any pump for that matter is rain water that has (for some reason) lower than a normal PH. Below from wiki. Normal, clean rain has a PH value of between 5.0 and 5.5, which is slightly acidic. However, when rain combines with sulfur dioxide or nitrogen oxides--produced from power plants and automobiles--the rain becomes much more acidic. Typical acid rain has a PH value of 4.0. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [9] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [10] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 23:49:35 -0400, Howie Michaelson wrote: Hi All, I need to replace 3-5 El Sid pumps I'm using in a low volume hydronic heating system. Other than laing pumps, are there any recommendations for 12, 24, or 48 vDC pumps? Having magnetic drives that mate with the impeller body of the El Sids, would be a bonus. Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson SUN CATCHER NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(tm) Solar Electric Systems Sales ">802-272-0004 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [16] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] List rules ">ALLAN SINDELAR allan at sindelarsolar.com [22] NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 CELL _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [23] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [24] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [25] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [26] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [27] Links: ------ [1] https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk03dW1FE07NYdW-SKtSF8D95psTZHQ:1600275656440&q=Ivan+Labs+Inc+Jupiter&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAONgecSYyS3w8sc9YamESWtOXmOM4uIKzsgvd80rySypFPLhYoOyFLj4pbj10_UNy9LjUwoMSzQYpHi5kAWkFJS4ePVCeQVEgxY5XNAS4pzrb6DDeu1eh2AO06Oc85Wms3kWsYp6liXmKfgkJhUreOYlK3iVFmSWpBYBAPY2GQ2GAAAA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiGxa2wk-7rAhVVHzQIHTy3ByoQ6RMwC3oECA0QAg&biw=1600&bih=757 [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [4] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [5] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [6] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [7] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [8] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [9] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [10] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [11] mailto:Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com [12] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [17] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [18] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [21] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [22] mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com [23] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [24] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [25] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [26] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [27] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Sep 16 13:16:34 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 13:16:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another pump quesiton In-Reply-To: <7aa98b83e54087f00155e86d34e8c0a3@127.0.0.1> References: <2857c2c3bad34edf3bc058ac130d77f6@127.0.0.1> <7aa98b83e54087f00155e86d34e8c0a3@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <8DF335D1-439B-40E5-865B-631765EA263B@swnl.net> Anyone try Low Tech energy in Colorado? 800-837-3507 > On Sep 16, 2020, at 1:00 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > I just dialed Ivan pumps (EL Sid) and it is disconnected. Not good! Anybody know for sure? > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 09:13:18 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > >> I have not seen electronics fail in an El Cid from Ivan labs fail. Probably only 4 installed. The one here is 15 years old on my domestic hot water. The others are still working, I think. >> >> Talk to Dan at Ivan and see what he says. There was not a website really (last time I looked) but here is the number >> >> ivan labs 561-747-5354 Talk with Dan >> >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 09:55:31 -0600, Ray wrote: >> >> I've always suspected that one of the issues was the variable voltage of DC systems. Batteries get low, and the current increases quite a bit, cold weather or EQing and the voltage can get really high and cause problems. The total variation just seems to take out a fair bit of both brushes and controls. This is just my long standing theory however, and I don't have Lab results. >> >> I actually had similar problems on 120 vac, when I lived on the edge of the grid. Voltage varied from 90 to 145 vac, and cooked quite a few things like washing machine controls (every 3 months or so) Once I put in a backup power system to protect those circuits, the controls lasted for a decade. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 9/15/20 10:29 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: >> This has been my experience as well, although I can't give such specific rationale as to why the El Sids failed - the electronics just usually and eventually fail in my battery-based hydronic system. The Marches just eventually wear out. >> >> Allan >> >> On 9/15/2020 9:57 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: >> Dave, >> I used to use El Sids a lot in SHW systems with direct PV drive for the glycol circulation. I've long stopped installing SHW, but have used them in off grid hydronic heat systems as well. The electronics have failed on many of these pumps over the years. They seem particularly intolerant of higher voltages, even small ones, which if they are being driven off battery voltage, is hard to avoid. None-the-less while I really liked the El Sids, they were too expensive to have as many failures as they did. I'm familiar with March pumps as well, but they always seem to fail prematurely as well, for even more money. I was hoping there might be a suitable replacement for a somewhat less expensive alternative. >> Howie >> Howie Michaelson >> Sun Catcher >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> >> Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service >> 802-272-0004 >> >> On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 10:29 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > wrote: >> Why did the El Sid fail? The one way I have seen them fail, and any pump for that matter is rain water that has (for some reason) lower than a normal PH. Below from wiki. >> >> Normal, clean rain has a pH value of between 5.0 and 5.5, which is slightly acidic. However, when rain combines with sulfur dioxide or nitrogen oxides—produced from power plants and automobiles—the rain becomes much more acidic. Typical acid rain has a pH value of 4.0. >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 23:49:35 -0400, Howie Michaelson > wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> I need to replace 3-5 El Sid pumps I'm using in a low volume hydronic heating system. Other than laing pumps, are there any recommendations for 12, 24, or 48 vDC pumps? Having magnetic drives that mate with the impeller body of the El Sids, would be a bonus. >> Thanks, >> Howie >> Howie Michaelson >> Sun Catcher >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> >> Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service >> 802-272-0004 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- >> Allan Sindelar >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> 505 780-2738 cell >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Wed Sep 16 13:28:48 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 13:28:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another pump quesiton In-Reply-To: References: <2857c2c3bad34edf3bc058ac130d77f6@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Dave, When my El Sids started failing years ago, I spoke with Dan and he recommended a voltage regulator to prevent the fluctuations and spikes. I installed one which seemed to help, but did not stop the failures. My memory is that he didn't have much else to say at the time other than there must have been a problem in the system. My impression was they were susceptible to voltage excursions more than the average. None-the-less, I need to find a different efficient pump that doesn't cost $300 a pop. I've seen some imported DC pumps that are very inexpensive - even if they don't last a long time, perhaps that may work for now. Howie *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 12:13 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > I have not seen electronics fail in an El Cid from Ivan labs fail. > Probably only 4 installed. The one here is 15 years old on my domestic hot > water. The others are still working, I think. > > Talk to Dan at Ivan and see what he says. There was not a website really > (last time I looked) but here is the number > > ivan labs 561-747-5354 Talk with Dan > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 09:55:31 -0600, Ray wrote: > > I've always suspected that one of the issues was the variable voltage of > DC systems. Batteries get low, and the current increases quite a bit, cold > weather or EQing and the voltage can get really high and cause problems. > The total variation just seems to take out a fair bit of both brushes and > controls. This is just my long standing theory however, and I don't have > Lab results. > > I actually had similar problems on 120 vac, when I lived on the edge of > the grid. Voltage varied from 90 to 145 vac, and cooked quite a few things > like washing machine controls (every 3 months or so) Once I put in a > backup power system to protect those circuits, the controls lasted for a > decade. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 9/15/20 10:29 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > > This has been my experience as well, although I can't give such specific > rationale as to why the El Sids failed - the electronics just usually and > eventually fail in my battery-based hydronic system. The Marches just > eventually wear out. > > Allan > On 9/15/2020 9:57 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > > Dave, > I used to use El Sids a lot in SHW systems with direct PV drive for the > glycol circulation. I've long stopped installing SHW, but have used them > in off grid hydronic heat systems as well. The electronics have failed on > many of these pumps over the years. They seem particularly intolerant of > higher voltages, even small ones, which if they are being driven off > battery voltage, is hard to avoid. None-the-less while I really liked the > El Sids, they were too expensive to have as many failures as they did. I'm > familiar with March pumps as well, but they always seem to fail prematurely > as well, for even more money. I was hoping there might be a suitable > replacement for a somewhat less expensive alternative. > Howie > > *Howie Michaelson **Sun Catcher* > > *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ * > > *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004* > > On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 10:29 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > >> Why did the El Sid fail? The one way I have seen them fail, and any pump >> for that matter is rain water that has (for some reason) lower than a >> normal PH. Below from wiki. >> >> Normal, clean rain has a *pH* value of between 5.0 and 5.5, which is >> slightly acidic. However, when rain combines with sulfur dioxide or >> nitrogen oxides—produced from power plants and automobiles—the rain becomes >> much more acidic. Typical acid rain has a *pH* value of 4.0. >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 23:49:35 -0400, Howie Michaelson < >> Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> I need to replace 3-5 El Sid pumps I'm using in a low volume hydronic >> heating system. Other than laing pumps, are there any recommendations for >> 12, 24, or 48 vDC pumps? Having magnetic drives that mate with the >> impeller body of the El Sids, would be a bonus. >> Thanks, >> Howie >> >> *Howie Michaelson **Sun Catcher* >> >> *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ * >> >> *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Sep 17 08:54:18 2020 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 06:54:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another pump quesiton In-Reply-To: References: <2857c2c3bad34edf3bc058ac130d77f6@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <005001d68cf1$a902fa80$fb08ef80$@solarwork.com> I have El-cids in stock & am selling them off. I have switched to the new AC technology that Grundfoss & TACO offer. They are called ECM pumps. Electronically Commutated Pump motors. AC-DC motors, soft start, variable speed, super-efficient, best of all very QUIET! Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2020 11:29 AM To: Dave Angelini ; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Another pump quesiton Dave, When my El Sids started failing years ago, I spoke with Dan and he recommended a voltage regulator to prevent the fluctuations and spikes. I installed one which seemed to help, but did not stop the failures. My memory is that he didn't have much else to say at the time other than there must have been a problem in the system. My impression was they were susceptible to voltage excursions more than the average. None-the-less, I need to find a different efficient pump that doesn't cost $300 a pop. I've seen some imported DC pumps that are very inexpensive - even if they don't last a long time, perhaps that may work for now. Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 12:13 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > wrote: I have not seen electronics fail in an El Cid from Ivan labs fail. Probably only 4 installed. The one here is 15 years old on my domestic hot water. The others are still working, I think. Talk to Dan at Ivan and see what he says. There was not a website really (last time I looked) but here is the number ivan labs 561-747-5354 Talk with Dan Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 09:55:31 -0600, Ray > wrote: I've always suspected that one of the issues was the variable voltage of DC systems. Batteries get low, and the current increases quite a bit, cold weather or EQing and the voltage can get really high and cause problems. The total variation just seems to take out a fair bit of both brushes and controls. This is just my long standing theory however, and I don't have Lab results. I actually had similar problems on 120 vac, when I lived on the edge of the grid. Voltage varied from 90 to 145 vac, and cooked quite a few things like washing machine controls (every 3 months or so) Once I put in a backup power system to protect those circuits, the controls lasted for a decade. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/15/20 10:29 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: This has been my experience as well, although I can't give such specific rationale as to why the El Sids failed - the electronics just usually and eventually fail in my battery-based hydronic system. The Marches just eventually wear out. Allan On 9/15/2020 9:57 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: Dave, I used to use El Sids a lot in SHW systems with direct PV drive for the glycol circulation. I've long stopped installing SHW, but have used them in off grid hydronic heat systems as well. The electronics have failed on many of these pumps over the years. They seem particularly intolerant of higher voltages, even small ones, which if they are being driven off battery voltage, is hard to avoid. None-the-less while I really liked the El Sids, they were too expensive to have as many failures as they did. I'm familiar with March pumps as well, but they always seem to fail prematurely as well, for even more money. I was hoping there might be a suitable replacement for a somewhat less expensive alternative. Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 10:29 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > wrote: Why did the El Sid fail? The one way I have seen them fail, and any pump for that matter is rain water that has (for some reason) lower than a normal PH. Below from wiki. Normal, clean rain has a pH value of between 5.0 and 5.5, which is slightly acidic. However, when rain combines with sulfur dioxide or nitrogen oxides—produced from power plants and automobiles—the rain becomes much more acidic. Typical acid rain has a pH value of 4.0. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 23:49:35 -0400, Howie Michaelson > wrote: Hi All, I need to replace 3-5 El Sid pumps I'm using in a low volume hydronic heating system. Other than laing pumps, are there any recommendations for 12, 24, or 48 vDC pumps? Having magnetic drives that mate with the impeller body of the El Sids, would be a bonus. Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Sep 17 11:30:43 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 09:30:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another pump quesiton In-Reply-To: <005001d68cf1$a902fa80$fb08ef80$@solarwork.com> References: <2857c2c3bad34edf3bc058ac130d77f6@127.0.0.1> <005001d68cf1$a902fa80$fb08ef80$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Actually best of all:  you don't have to run low voltage DC circuits to the pump room.  Another thing about the ECM drive pumps, they have much higher flow rates available than the El Cids.  And if you're worried about your old school street cred in the off grid world, they are still technically DC at the drive, for those old timers that insist on DC. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/17/20 6:54 AM, Dana Orzel wrote: > > I have El-cids in stock & am selling them off. > > I have switched to the new AC technology that Grundfoss & TACO offer. > They are called ECM pumps. Electronically Commutated Pump motors. > AC-DC motors, soft start, variable speed, super-efficient, best of all > very QUIET! > > Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003                       dana at solarwork.com* > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > > _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" ___ > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Sep 17 11:42:22 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 08:42:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another pump quesiton In-Reply-To: References: <2857c2c3bad34edf3bc058ac130d77f6@127.0.0.1> <005001d68cf1$a902fa80$fb08ef80$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <639b6513fd16bcaf8ebf016442751b93@127.0.0.1> Look at the recent Grundfos Scala2 recall, they have sold some really bad pumps, so AC is not always best. For Offgrid a spare inverter is often called for because critical systems do need back-up. Many applications/requirements are different. Grundfos scala2 pump recall They have been RECALLING or "updating" all VFD type PUMPS for 30+ years now. It is all part of their planned obsolescence. The more electronics you have in a PUMP system, the less likely water is to come out of a faucet when opened, and the more it is going to cost you Winter is coming :) Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 09:30:43 -0600, Ray wrote: Actually best of all: you don't have to run low voltage DC circuits to the pump room. Another thing about the ECM drive pumps, they have much higher flow rates available than the El Cids. And if you're worried about your old school street cred in the off grid world, they are still technically DC at the drive, for those old timers that insist on DC. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/17/20 6:54 AM, Dana Orzel wrote: I have El-cids in stock ">I have switched to the new AC technology that Grundfoss "> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com [3] "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.solarwork.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Sep 17 11:43:52 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 11:43:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another pump quesiton In-Reply-To: References: <2857c2c3bad34edf3bc058ac130d77f6@127.0.0.1> <005001d68cf1$a902fa80$fb08ef80$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Certainly willing to look at those - I'd be happy to not mess with DC converters and voltage spike issues. Any specific models you'd suggest to replace El Sids in low head situations? Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Thu, Sep 17, 2020, 11:30 AM Ray wrote: > Actually best of all: you don't have to run low voltage DC circuits to > the pump room. Another thing about the ECM drive pumps, they have much > higher flow rates available than the El Cids. And if you're worried about > your old school street cred in the off grid world, they are still > technically DC at the drive, for those old timers that insist on DC. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 9/17/20 6:54 AM, Dana Orzel wrote: > > I have El-cids in stock & am selling them off. > > I have switched to the new AC technology that Grundfoss & TACO offer. They > are called ECM pumps. Electronically Commutated Pump motors. AC-DC motors, > soft start, variable speed, super-efficient, best of all very QUIET! > > > > > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Sep 17 13:07:27 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 11:07:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another pump quesiton In-Reply-To: <639b6513fd16bcaf8ebf016442751b93@127.0.0.1> References: <2857c2c3bad34edf3bc058ac130d77f6@127.0.0.1> <005001d68cf1$a902fa80$fb08ef80$@solarwork.com> <639b6513fd16bcaf8ebf016442751b93@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <94cc46f8-2e78-b38d-ac6e-2bd04611bf8b@solarray.com> I've definitely had some Grundfos failures from the way back days, but their Alpha ECM circulator series has been really solid, as well as Taco's ECM drive circulators.  To be clear ECM is variable speed drive VSD, but not variable frequency drive VFD. ECM varies DC voltage to a DC motor to vary speed, while VFD varies frequency to a 3 phase motor to vary speed. Or at least that's the way my feeble mind understands it...... Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/17/20 9:42 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Look at the recent Grundfos Scala2 recall, they have sold some really > bad pumps, so AC is not always best. For Offgrid a spare inverter is > often called for because critical systems do need back-up. Many > applications/requirements are different. > > Grundfos scala2 pump recall > They have been *recalling* or "updating" all VFD type *pumps* for 30+ > years now. It is all part of their planned obsolescence. The more > electronics you have in a *pump* system, the less likely water is to > come out of a faucet when opened, and the more it is going to cost you > > Winter is coming :) > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 09:30:43 -0600, Ray wrote: > >> Actually best of all:  you don't have to run low voltage DC circuits >> to the pump room.  Another thing about the ECM drive pumps, they have >> much higher flow rates available than the El Cids.  And if you're >> worried about your old school street cred in the off grid world, they >> are still technically DC at the drive, for those old timers that >> insist on DC. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 9/17/20 6:54 AM, Dana Orzel wrote: >>> >>> I have El-cids in stock & am selling them off. >>> >>> I have switched to the new AC technology that Grundfoss & TACO >>> offer. They are called ECM pumps. Electronically Commutated Pump >>> motors. AC-DC motors, soft start, variable speed, super-efficient, >>> best of all very QUIET! >>> >>> Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. >>> >>> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com* >>> >>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 >>> >>> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com >>> >>> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>> >>> *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Sep 17 13:26:38 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 10:26:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another pump quesiton In-Reply-To: <94cc46f8-2e78-b38d-ac6e-2bd04611bf8b@solarray.com> References: <94cc46f8-2e78-b38d-ac6e-2bd04611bf8b@solarray.com> Message-ID: <57B76EC8-393B-4A1F-B5D5-2B8C75F981BB@gmail.com> Anyone have any recommendations as to other products like the scala2? Thx Jay > On Sep 17, 2020, at 10:07 AM, Ray wrote: > >  > I've definitely had some Grundfos failures from the way back days, but their Alpha ECM circulator series has been really solid, as well as Taco's ECM drive circulators. To be clear ECM is variable speed drive VSD, but not variable frequency drive VFD. ECM varies DC voltage to a DC motor to vary speed, while VFD varies frequency to a 3 phase motor to vary speed. > > Or at least that's the way my feeble mind understands it...... > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 9/17/20 9:42 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> Look at the recent Grundfos Scala2 recall, they have sold some really bad pumps, so AC is not always best. For Offgrid a spare inverter is often called for because critical systems do need back-up. Many applications/requirements are different. >> >> Grundfos scala2 pump recall >> They have been recalling or "updating" all VFD type pumps for 30+ years now. It is all part of their planned obsolescence. The more electronics you have in a pump system, the less likely water is to come out of a faucet when opened, and the more it is going to cost you >> >> >> Winter is coming :) >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 09:30:43 -0600, Ray wrote: >> >>> Actually best of all: you don't have to run low voltage DC circuits to the pump room. Another thing about the ECM drive pumps, they have much higher flow rates available than the El Cids. And if you're worried about your old school street cred in the off grid world, they are still technically DC at the drive, for those old timers that insist on DC. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> On 9/17/20 6:54 AM, Dana Orzel wrote: >>>> I have El-cids in stock & am selling them off. >>>> >>>> I have switched to the new AC technology that Grundfoss & TACO offer. They are called ECM pumps. Electronically Commutated Pump motors. AC-DC motors, soft start, variable speed, super-efficient, best of all very QUIET! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >>>> >>>> C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >>>> >>>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >>>> >>>> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com >>>> >>>> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>>> >>>> P Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Sep 17 14:06:08 2020 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 14:06:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another pump quesiton In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3a800370-e5b6-4a77-8df8-19322b0af713@entech-engineering.com> I would look at the pump that Thermodynamics LTD of Canada sells.  Pretty bullet proof in my experience of 20 years of installing their products.  Don't deal with the people in VT. Call the business in Dartmouth Nova Scotia, eh?   Laing are expensive but very reliable. March is not great for small closed loop.  I really support dc pumps for solar hot water unless the customer has a solar electric system too. On 9/14/2020 11:49 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > Hi All, > I need to replace 3-5 El Sid pumps I'm using in a low volume hydronic > heating system.  Other than laing pumps, are there any recommendations > for 12, 24, or 48 vDC pumps?  Having magnetic drives that mate with > the impeller body of the El Sids, would be a bonus. > Thanks, > Howie > *Howie Michaelson > **Sun Catcher* > *****/NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > /** > **Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Thu Sep 17 14:39:51 2020 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (Todd Cory) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 11:39:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another pump quesiton In-Reply-To: <3a800370-e5b6-4a77-8df8-19322b0af713@entech-engineering.com> References: <3a800370-e5b6-4a77-8df8-19322b0af713@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <1749d5d98d8.27c7.4317fda5bda71af373de9c45c94f08a7@finestplanet.com> I have had exceptional experience using Hartel brand brushless DC circulation pumps on my home's solar hot water system. Todd On September 17, 2020 11:06:33 AM Christopher Warfel wrote: > I would look at the pump that Thermodynamics LTD of Canada sells. Pretty > bullet proof in my experience of 20 years of installing their products. > Don't deal with the people in VT. Call the business in Dartmouth Nova > Scotia, eh? Laing are expensive but very reliable. March is not great for > small closed loop. I really support dc pumps for solar hot water unless > the customer has a solar electric system too. > On 9/14/2020 11:49 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: >> Hi All, >> I need to replace 3-5 El Sid pumps I'm using in a low volume hydronic >> heating system. Other than laing pumps, are there any recommendations for >> 12, 24, or 48 vDC pumps? Having magnetic drives that mate with the >> impeller body of the El Sids, would be a bonus. >> Thanks, >> Howie >> Howie Michaelson >> Sun Catcher >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> >> Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service >> 802-272-0004 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: >> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List >> rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent with AquaMail for Android https://www.mobisystems.com/aqua-mail -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Sep 17 23:07:01 2020 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 20:07:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another pump quesiton In-Reply-To: <1749d5d98d8.27c7.4317fda5bda71af373de9c45c94f08a7@finestplanet.com> References: <3a800370-e5b6-4a77-8df8-19322b0af713@entech-engineering.com> <1749d5d98d8.27c7.4317fda5bda71af373de9c45c94f08a7@finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <9ecbe6eb-3b8e-8647-16b8-fbf20bbfb4ea@psln.com> I will second that, Todd.  I've had a Hartell  MD-10-HEH mag drive pump pumping glycol in my SHW closed loop for 23 years direct powered by a 20 watt PV.  It does make a little noise when your close to it...so be it. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 9/17/2020 11:39 AM, Todd Cory wrote: > I have had exceptional experience using Hartel brand brushless DC > circulation pumps on my home's solar hot water system. > > Todd > > On September 17, 2020 11:06:33 AM Christopher Warfel > wrote: > >> I would look at the pump that Thermodynamics LTD of Canada sells.  >> Pretty bullet proof in my experience of 20 years of installing their >> products.  Don't deal with the people in VT. Call the business in >> Dartmouth Nova Scotia, eh?   Laing are expensive but very reliable. >> March is not great for small closed loop.  I really support dc pumps >> for solar hot water unless the customer has a solar electric system too. >> >> On 9/14/2020 11:49 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: >>> Hi All, >>> I need to replace 3-5 El Sid pumps I'm using in a low volume >>> hydronic heating system.  Other than laing pumps, are there any >>> recommendations for 12, 24, or 48 vDC pumps?  Having magnetic drives >>> that mate with the impeller body of the El Sids, would be a bonus. >>> Thanks, >>> Howie >>> *Howie Michaelson >>> **Sun Catcher* >>> *****/NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >>> /** >>> **Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service >>> 802-272-0004* >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> -- -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Sep 18 10:28:47 2020 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 10:28:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another pump quesiton In-Reply-To: <9ecbe6eb-3b8e-8647-16b8-fbf20bbfb4ea@psln.com> References: <3a800370-e5b6-4a77-8df8-19322b0af713@entech-engineering.com> <1749d5d98d8.27c7.4317fda5bda71af373de9c45c94f08a7@finestplanet.com> <9ecbe6eb-3b8e-8647-16b8-fbf20bbfb4ea@psln.com> Message-ID: Yes, I forgot about them. Thank you for the reminder.  If you have a supplier of it would you contact me off list?  Chris On 9/17/2020 11:07 PM, frenergy wrote: > > I will second that, Todd.  I've had a Hartell  MD-10-HEH mag drive > pump pumping glycol in my SHW closed loop for 23 years direct powered > by a 20 watt PV.  It does make a little noise when your close to > it...so be it. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > On 9/17/2020 11:39 AM, Todd Cory wrote: >> I have had exceptional experience using Hartel brand brushless DC >> circulation pumps on my home's solar hot water system. >> >> Todd >> >> On September 17, 2020 11:06:33 AM Christopher Warfel >> wrote: >> >>> I would look at the pump that Thermodynamics LTD of Canada sells.  >>> Pretty bullet proof in my experience of 20 years of installing their >>> products.  Don't deal with the people in VT. Call the business in >>> Dartmouth Nova Scotia, eh?   Laing are expensive but very reliable. >>> March is not great for small closed loop.  I really support dc pumps >>> for solar hot water unless the customer has a solar electric system >>> too. >>> >>> On 9/14/2020 11:49 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: >>>> Hi All, >>>> I need to replace 3-5 El Sid pumps I'm using in a low volume >>>> hydronic heating system.  Other than laing pumps, are there any >>>> recommendations for 12, 24, or 48 vDC pumps?  Having magnetic >>>> drives that mate with the impeller body of the El Sids, would be a >>>> bonus. >>>> Thanks, >>>> Howie >>>> *Howie Michaelson >>>> **Sun Catcher* >>>> *****/NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >>>> /** >>>> **Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service >>>> 802-272-0004* >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> > -- > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cadams at sunrocksolar.com Fri Sep 18 11:46:48 2020 From: cadams at sunrocksolar.com (Carl Adams) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 11:46:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snail Trails Suniva OPT 270 Message-ID: Swapping a failed SE optimizer this AM and noticed some strange marks/patterns on several of the modules. How concerned should I be about this? These are SUNIVA OPT 270s installed in December 2014. Pictures attached. [image: 1B small.jpg] [image: 1C small.jpg] [image: 1A small.jpg] With Kind Regards Carl Adams, President SunRock Solar, LLC 513.290.9072 (mobile) 513.766.6025 (office) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1B small.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 254371 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1C small.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 364654 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1A small.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 361356 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Sep 18 12:10:35 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 09:10:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snail Trails Suniva OPT 270 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sounds like ce fractures Jerry On Fri, Sep 18, 2020, 8:47 AM Carl Adams wrote: > Swapping a failed SE optimizer this AM and noticed some strange > marks/patterns on several of the modules. How concerned should I be about > this? These are SUNIVA OPT 270s installed in December 2014. Pictures > attached. > [image: 1B small.jpg] > [image: 1C small.jpg] > [image: 1A small.jpg] > With Kind Regards > Carl Adams, President > SunRock Solar, LLC > 513.290.9072 (mobile) > 513.766.6025 (office) > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1B small.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 254371 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1C small.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 364654 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1A small.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 361356 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Sep 18 14:04:35 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 11:04:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snail Trails Suniva OPT 270 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Carl They look like static bubbles, not micro cracks. I’ve seen something like this before. The static has to do with how the EVA is laid down. Jay > On Sep 18, 2020, at 8:47 AM, Carl Adams wrote: > >  > Swapping a failed SE optimizer this AM and noticed some strange marks/patterns on several of the modules. How concerned should I be about this? These are SUNIVA OPT 270s installed in December 2014. Pictures attached. > <1B small.jpg> > <1C small.jpg> > <1A small.jpg> > > With Kind Regards > Carl Adams, President > SunRock Solar, LLC > 513.290.9072 (mobile) > 513.766.6025 (office) > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Sep 18 16:04:06 2020 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 16:04:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commercial three phase inverter @208V Message-ID: I'm bidding a commercial rooftop of about 200KW using string inverters. The voltage is 208V 3Ph 60Hz, and I can't find an inverter over 15KW. I was hoping to use the SMA 50KW CORE 1 but everything is 480V. Any leads on a reputable inverter? -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at sesre.com Fri Sep 18 16:35:59 2020 From: matt at sesre.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 20:35:59 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commercial three phase inverter @208V In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Three Core 62s with a transformer is a great solution. Lots of Fronius 15s could work but you could buy a backup transformer for the difference. Contact me off-list if you need help finding transformers. SMA will also direct you to some good solutions if pressed. Matt From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Friday, September 18, 2020 4:04 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commercial three phase inverter @208V I'm bidding a commercial rooftop of about 200KW using string inverters. The voltage is 208V 3Ph 60Hz, and I can't find an inverter over 15KW. I was hoping to use the SMA 50KW CORE 1 but everything is 480V. Any leads on a reputable inverter? -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Sep 18 16:51:47 2020 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 16:51:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commercial three phase inverter @208V In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you for taking the time to recommend this. Transformers are easy, we're an electrical contractor when we are not installing solar and we supply high voltage products to projects. Also a generator dealer but that's another story. I was about to price the transformers as a last resort. Have you had any issues with inductance, does the power factor suffer using transformers? If possible, I'm going to look at running 480V to the main distribution board and connecting there, but I can't do a site plan so that's information I don't have. On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 4:36 PM Matt Partymiller wrote: > Three Core 62s with a transformer is a great solution. Lots of Fronius > 15s could work but you could buy a backup transformer for the difference. > Contact me off-list if you need help finding transformers. SMA will also > direct you to some good solutions if pressed. > > > > Matt > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Chris Mason > *Sent:* Friday, September 18, 2020 4:04 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Commercial three phase inverter @208V > > > > I'm bidding a commercial rooftop of about 200KW using string inverters. > The voltage is 208V 3Ph 60Hz, and I can't find an inverter over 15KW. I was > hoping to use the SMA 50KW CORE 1 but everything is 480V. Any leads on a > reputable inverter? > > > > -- > > Chris Mason > > Solar systems designer > > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > > > Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar > Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 > > WhatsApp 264.235.5670 > > Skype: netconcepts > > www.cometsolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Sep 18 16:54:33 2020 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 16:54:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commercial three phase inverter @208V In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The actual system I am proposing is 1 x 200KW and 1 x 50KW on another building so I am thinking 5 x 50KW Core 1 inverters. On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 4:36 PM Matt Partymiller wrote: > Three Core 62s with a transformer is a great solution. Lots of Fronius > 15s could work but you could buy a backup transformer for the difference. > Contact me off-list if you need help finding transformers. SMA will also > direct you to some good solutions if pressed. > > > > Matt > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Chris Mason > *Sent:* Friday, September 18, 2020 4:04 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Commercial three phase inverter @208V > > > > I'm bidding a commercial rooftop of about 200KW using string inverters. > The voltage is 208V 3Ph 60Hz, and I can't find an inverter over 15KW. I was > hoping to use the SMA 50KW CORE 1 but everything is 480V. Any leads on a > reputable inverter? > > > > -- > > Chris Mason > > Solar systems designer > > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > > > Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar > Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 > > WhatsApp 264.235.5670 > > Skype: netconcepts > > www.cometsolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Sep 18 18:10:40 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 15:10:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commercial three phase inverter @208V In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches I use the SMACore and step-down transformer Jerry On Fri, Sep 18, 2020, 1:04 PM Chris Mason wrote: > I'm bidding a commercial rooftop of about 200KW using string inverters. > The voltage is 208V 3Ph 60Hz, and I can't find an inverter over 15KW. I was > hoping to use the SMA 50KW CORE 1 but everything is 480V. Any leads on a > reputable inverter? > > -- > Chris Mason > Solar systems designer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar > Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 > WhatsApp 264.235.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > www.cometsolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Sep 18 18:31:33 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 15:31:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commercial three phase inverter @208V In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have a similar size system in the works and a designer recommended Dongan transformers: https://dongan.com/product/ I have not sourced them or worked with them yet, but they definitely have models that will work spec-wise with the CORE1 inverters. August On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 3:10 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > I use the SMACore and step-down transformer > Jerry > > On Fri, Sep 18, 2020, 1:04 PM Chris Mason > wrote: > >> I'm bidding a commercial rooftop of about 200KW using string inverters. >> The voltage is 208V 3Ph 60Hz, and I can't find an inverter over 15KW. I was >> hoping to use the SMA 50KW CORE 1 but everything is 480V. Any leads on a >> reputable inverter? >> >> -- >> Chris Mason >> Solar systems designer >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar >> Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 >> WhatsApp 264.235.5670 >> Skype: netconcepts >> www.cometsolar.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bchurchill at energy-1.net Fri Sep 18 16:33:28 2020 From: bchurchill at energy-1.net (Barton Churchill) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 20:33:28 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commercial three phase inverter @208V In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just use a transformer. [cid:6c26afbc-2b00-4b95-b459-380117216f20]Barton Churchill Director, Power Division 2042 Stadium Drive Suite 2 • Bozeman, MT 59715 • (O) 406-587-2917 • (D) 406-589-4493 235 E. Broadway • Jackson, WY 83001 • (O) 307-200-2210 bchurchill at energy-1.net | www.energy-1.net ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Chris Mason Sent: Friday, September 18, 2020 2:04 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commercial three phase inverter @208V I'm bidding a commercial rooftop of about 200KW using string inverters. The voltage is 208V 3Ph 60Hz, and I can't find an inverter over 15KW. I was hoping to use the SMA 50KW CORE 1 but everything is 480V. Any leads on a reputable inverter? -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-aafom4pe.png Type: image/png Size: 7692 bytes Desc: Outlook-aafom4pe.png URL: From garrison.rie at gmail.com Fri Sep 18 19:02:24 2020 From: garrison.rie at gmail.com (Garrison) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 18:02:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commercial three phase inverter @208V In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you do go with a transformer I'll second Dongan. They know solar and will build to match your inverter output so no material is wasted. CPS just released a 25kW 208V inverter...but it might be more cost effective to use a 480V inverter and transformer depending on layout, conduit length, equipment location, etc. Best, Garrison Riegel On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 5:31 PM August Goers wrote: > We have a similar size system in the works and a designer recommended > Dongan transformers: https://dongan.com/product/ > > I have not sourced them or worked with them yet, but they definitely have > models that will work spec-wise with the CORE1 inverters. > > August > > > On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 3:10 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Wrenches >> I use the SMACore and step-down transformer >> Jerry >> >> On Fri, Sep 18, 2020, 1:04 PM Chris Mason >> wrote: >> >>> I'm bidding a commercial rooftop of about 200KW using string inverters. >>> The voltage is 208V 3Ph 60Hz, and I can't find an inverter over 15KW. I was >>> hoping to use the SMA 50KW CORE 1 but everything is 480V. Any leads on a >>> reputable inverter? >>> >>> -- >>> Chris Mason >>> Solar systems designer >>> Generac Generators Industrial technician >>> >>> Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar >>> Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 >>> WhatsApp 264.235.5670 >>> Skype: netconcepts >>> www.cometsolar.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Sep 21 09:03:12 2020 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2020 09:03:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commercial three phase inverter @208V In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One of my big concerns with inverters is corporate stability. I know SMA and Fronius are going to be around but I've seen too many brands disappear. On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 7:02 PM Garrison wrote: > If you do go with a transformer I'll second Dongan. They know solar and > will build to match your inverter output so no material is wasted. > > CPS just released a 25kW 208V inverter...but it might be more cost > effective to use a 480V inverter and transformer depending on layout, > conduit length, equipment location, etc. > > Best, > Garrison Riegel > > On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 5:31 PM August Goers wrote: > >> We have a similar size system in the works and a designer recommended >> Dongan transformers: https://dongan.com/product/ >> >> I have not sourced them or worked with them yet, but they definitely have >> models that will work spec-wise with the CORE1 inverters. >> >> August >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 3:10 PM Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >>> Wrenches >>> I use the SMACore and step-down transformer >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2020, 1:04 PM Chris Mason >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I'm bidding a commercial rooftop of about 200KW using string inverters. >>>> The voltage is 208V 3Ph 60Hz, and I can't find an inverter over 15KW. I was >>>> hoping to use the SMA 50KW CORE 1 but everything is 480V. Any leads on a >>>> reputable inverter? >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Chris Mason >>>> Solar systems designer >>>> Generac Generators Industrial technician >>>> >>>> Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar >>>> Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 >>>> WhatsApp 264.235.5670 >>>> Skype: netconcepts >>>> www.cometsolar.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Sep 21 13:20:32 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2020 10:20:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snail Trails Suniva OPT 270 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting. We have a small commercial site installed in 2014 with Suniva MVX255-60-5-7B1 modules exhibiting a similar if not the same issue. See attached photos. My understanding is that the MVX series modules were possibly manufactured on a separate line than the OPT series that Carl shared and of course are polycrystalline rather than mono - in other words, totally different cells. I don't know if they shared the same encapsulant assembly materials and procedure. Our site has 70 of these modules, and our technician estimated the 90% of them were showing these issues. Production still seems fine, although we don't have online monitoring so we can't tell if it's been training off or not. August On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 11:37 AM Jay wrote: > Hi Carl > > They look like static bubbles, not micro cracks. > I’ve seen something like this before. > > The static has to do with how the EVA is laid down. > > Jay > > > > > On Sep 18, 2020, at 8:47 AM, Carl Adams wrote: > > > >  > > Swapping a failed SE optimizer this AM and noticed some strange > marks/patterns on several of the modules. How concerned should I be about > this? These are SUNIVA OPT 270s installed in December 2014. Pictures > attached. > > <1B small.jpg> > > <1C small.jpg> > > <1A small.jpg> > > > > With Kind Regards > > Carl Adams, President > > SunRock Solar, LLC > > 513.290.9072 (mobile) > > 513.766.6025 (office) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Suniva MVX255-60-5-7B1 (3).jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 127866 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Suniva MVX255-60-5-7B1 (1).jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 84610 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Suniva MVX255-60-5-7B1 (2).jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 132301 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Sep 21 14:26:55 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2020 11:26:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snail Trails Suniva OPT 270 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59e9eaec56d0ca01c2a5f4c4e8be8e2f@127.0.0.1> About 2015 I bought some Suniva poly's that had the cracks. I talked with an Engineer at Suniva who told me this would not affect output. I told him that every panel I install is on the ground and would not use these again because it is so visible when mounted on a ground mount. He said he was sorry to hear that and did take them back. Totally unacceptable to me no matter what the output is. If it went up by 30% with cracks, it would still scare me on longevity. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 10:20:32 -0700, August Goers wrote: Interesting. We have a small commercial site installed in 2014 with Suniva MVX255-60-5-7B1 modules exhibiting a similar if not the same issue. See attached photos. My understanding is that the MVX series modules were possibly manufactured on a separate line than the OPT series that Carl shared and of course are polycrystalline rather than mono - in other words, totally different cells. I don't know if they shared the same encapsulant assembly materials and procedure. Our site has 70 of these modules, and our technician estimated the 90% of them were showing these issues. Production still seems fine, although we don't have online monitoring so we can't tell if it's been training off or not. August On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 11:37 AM Jay wrote: Hi Carl They look like static bubbles, not micro cracks. I've seen something like this before. The static has to do with how the EVA is laid down. Jay > On Sep 18, 2020, at 8:47 AM, Carl Adams wrote: > > > Swapping a failed SE optimizer this AM and noticed some strange marks/patterns on several of the modules. How concerned should I be about this? These are SUNIVA OPT 270s installed in December 2014. Pictures attached. > > > > > With Kind Regards > Carl Adams, President > SunRock Solar, LLC > 513.290.9072 (mobile) > 513.766.6025 (office) > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [9] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [14] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com [4] mailto:cadams at sunrocksolar.com [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Suniva MVX255-60-5-7B1 (2).jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 132301 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Sep 22 15:11:42 2020 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 12:11:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pump power In-Reply-To: <59e9eaec56d0ca01c2a5f4c4e8be8e2f@127.0.0.1> References: <59e9eaec56d0ca01c2a5f4c4e8be8e2f@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <0b04ff0d-f9b1-64c8-1062-a05931977bfe@psln.com> Wrenchers,             We're upgrading an off-grid water system.  Dynamic head while pumping at 20 GPM is 150 ft from water level to wellhead and then its 85 ft vertical to storage tank so 235 ft total head to open discharge.  We would like to get most of that 20 GPM, we need to know if there is personal experience with starting a 1.5 or 2 HP, 240 vac, 2 wire submersible pump against that kind of head with an Outback Flex Power2 (2 X VFXR3648A-01 inverters).             The FP2 will also be powering standard off-grid loads.  There is plenty of battery behind the inverters.  If a soft-start solution is required, some specifics would be great. Grundfos doesn't seem to have an option for these requirements, solar-direct is not an option at this location. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Sep 22 15:13:08 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 12:13:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pump power In-Reply-To: <0b04ff0d-f9b1-64c8-1062-a05931977bfe@psln.com> References: <59e9eaec56d0ca01c2a5f4c4e8be8e2f@127.0.0.1> <0b04ff0d-f9b1-64c8-1062-a05931977bfe@psln.com> Message-ID: Go look at grudfus SQFlex they can go pv direct or AC in Jerry On Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 12:10 PM frenergy wrote: > Wrenchers, > > We're upgrading an off-grid water system. Dynamic head > while pumping at 20 GPM is 150 ft from water level to wellhead and then > its 85 ft vertical to storage tank so 235 ft total head to open > discharge. We would like to get most of that 20 GPM, we need to know if > there is personal experience with starting a 1.5 or 2 HP, 240 vac, 2 > wire submersible pump against that kind of head with an Outback Flex > Power2 (2 X VFXR3648A-01 inverters). > > The FP2 will also be powering standard off-grid loads. > There is plenty of battery behind the inverters. If a soft-start > solution is required, some specifics would be great. Grundfos doesn't > seem to have an option for these requirements, solar-direct is not an > option at this location. > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Sep 22 15:38:56 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 13:38:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pump power In-Reply-To: <0b04ff0d-f9b1-64c8-1062-a05931977bfe@psln.com> References: <0b04ff0d-f9b1-64c8-1062-a05931977bfe@psln.com> Message-ID: <46311CF2-491E-49C2-93F9-96BEF821DD2F@gmail.com> Hi Bill I would not recommend the Sqflex as it does have that gpm/height possibility but would recommend the Grundfos SQ. The 22SQ15-220 will do what you want. 1.5hp, soft start, 240vac, way less expensive, uses a bit more power. Jay Peltz power. > On Sep 22, 2020, at 1:10 PM, frenergy wrote: > > Wrenchers, > > We're upgrading an off-grid water system. Dynamic head while pumping at 20 GPM is 150 ft from water level to wellhead and then its 85 ft vertical to storage tank so 235 ft total head to open discharge. We would like to get most of that 20 GPM, we need to know if there is personal experience with starting a 1.5 or 2 HP, 240 vac, 2 wire submersible pump against that kind of head with an Outback Flex Power2 (2 X VFXR3648A-01 inverters). > > The FP2 will also be powering standard off-grid loads. There is plenty of battery behind the inverters. If a soft-start solution is required, some specifics would be great. Grundfos doesn't seem to have an option for these requirements, solar-direct is not an option at this location. > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org From kent at coveoregon.com Tue Sep 22 15:46:46 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 12:46:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pump power In-Reply-To: References: <59e9eaec56d0ca01c2a5f4c4e8be8e2f@127.0.0.1> <0b04ff0d-f9b1-64c8-1062-a05931977bfe@psln.com> Message-ID: <153a09c4-f460-b21f-a2d4-e9e8461f8dd6@coveoregon.com> The Grundfos 16SQF-10 will give you 12 to 13 gpm at 230 feet. But that is working at the upper edge of this pump's lift rating. Not sure that meets your definition of most of the 20 gpm. The maximum output current, 50 A, of the inverter system equals the locked rotor amps of a 2 HP motor. Without a soft start you aren't going to reliably start the 2HP pump while running other loads. Even the 1.5 HP is problematic. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 9/22/2020 12:13 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Go look at grudfus SQFlex they can go pv direct or AC in > Jerry > > On Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 12:10 PM frenergy > wrote: > > Wrenchers, > >              We're upgrading an off-grid water system. Dynamic head > while pumping at 20 GPM is 150 ft from water level to wellhead and > then > its 85 ft vertical to storage tank so 235 ft total head to open > discharge.  We would like to get most of that 20 GPM, we need to > know if > there is personal experience with starting a 1.5 or 2 HP, 240 vac, 2 > wire submersible pump against that kind of head with an Outback Flex > Power2 (2 X VFXR3648A-01 inverters). > >              The FP2 will also be powering standard off-grid loads. > There is plenty of battery behind the inverters.  If a soft-start > solution is required, some specifics would be great. Grundfos doesn't > seem to have an option for these requirements, solar-direct is not an > option at this location. > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Sep 22 15:58:41 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 12:58:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pump power In-Reply-To: <153a09c4-f460-b21f-a2d4-e9e8461f8dd6@coveoregon.com> References: <59e9eaec56d0ca01c2a5f4c4e8be8e2f@127.0.0.1> <0b04ff0d-f9b1-64c8-1062-a05931977bfe@psln.com> <153a09c4-f460-b21f-a2d4-e9e8461f8dd6@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: <8bba2a62488d5a6312025cfc377eff44@127.0.0.1> Hmm, The SQF and SQ series pumps are soft start! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 22 Sep 2020 12:46:46 -0700, Kent Osterberg wrote: The Grundfos 16SQF-10 will give you 12 to 13 gpm at 230 feet. But that is working at the upper edge of this pump's lift rating. Not sure that meets your definition of most of the 20 gpm. The maximum output current, 50 A, of the inverter system equals the locked rotor amps of a 2 HP motor. Without a soft start you aren't going to reliably start the 2HP pump while running other loads. Even the 1.5 HP is problematic. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 9/22/2020 12:13 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Go look at grudfus SQFlex they can go pv direct or AC in Jerry On Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 12:10 PM frenergy wrote: Wrenchers, We're upgrading an off-grid water system. Dynamic head while pumping at 20 GPM is 150 ft from water level to wellhead and then its 85 ft vertical to storage tank so 235 ft total head to open discharge. We would like to get most of that 20 GPM, we need to know if there is personal experience with starting a 1.5 or 2 HP, 240 vac, 2 wire submersible pump against that kind of head with an Outback Flex Power2 (2 X VFXR3648A-01 inverters). The FP2 will also be powering standard off-grid loads. There is plenty of battery behind the inverters. If a soft-start solution is required, some specifics would be great. Grundfos doesn't seem to have an option for these requirements, solar-direct is not an option at this location. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net [4] -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus [5] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [15] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:frenergy at psln.com [4] http://www.frenergy.net [5] https://www.avast.com/antivirus [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Sep 22 17:58:14 2020 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 15:58:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pentair Pump power Message-ID: <002101d6912b$79a27700$6ce76500$@solarwork.com> If you have 240 VAC look at the Pentair wild AC pumps I have one at 20 GPM and am a believer. Tapers on - soft start, varies the volts & amperage with flow and tapers the amperage down as it reaches a full expansion tank. Even better my local well pump installer sells & services it so I do not have to! Getting a little smarter as I get older. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 1:12 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pump power Wrenchers, We're upgrading an off-grid water system. Dynamic head while pumping at 20 GPM is 150 ft from water level to wellhead and then its 85 ft vertical to storage tank so 235 ft total head to open discharge. We would like to get most of that 20 GPM, we need to know if there is personal experience with starting a 1.5 or 2 HP, 240 vac, 2 wire submersible pump against that kind of head with an Outback Flex Power2 (2 X VFXR3648A-01 inverters). The FP2 will also be powering standard off-grid loads. There is plenty of battery behind the inverters. If a soft-start solution is required, some specifics would be great. Grundfos doesn't seem to have an option for these requirements, solar-direct is not an option at this location. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From frenergy at psln.com Tue Sep 22 21:17:41 2020 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 18:17:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pentair Pump power In-Reply-To: <002101d6912b$79a27700$6ce76500$@solarwork.com> References: <002101d6912b$79a27700$6ce76500$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Just curious, the 120VAC 1/2 HP submersible that has to date been in the well for the last 17 years has needed zero service, is there something about the Pentair set-up you're referring to that needs regular or occasional service?  Believe me I understand your comment about schlepping service to some other poor soul, but.... Is the Pentair powered with 240 Vac inverter power? Bill On 9/22/2020 2:58 PM, Dana Orzel wrote: > If you have 240 VAC look at the Pentair wild AC pumps I have one at 20 GPM and am a believer. Tapers on - soft start, varies the volts & amperage with flow and tapers the amperage down as it reaches a full expansion tank. > > Even better my local well pump installer sells & services it so I do not have to! Getting a little smarter as I get older. > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of frenergy > Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 1:12 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pump power > > Wrenchers, > > We're upgrading an off-grid water system. Dynamic head while pumping at 20 GPM is 150 ft from water level to wellhead and then its 85 ft vertical to storage tank so 235 ft total head to open discharge. We would like to get most of that 20 GPM, we need to know if there is personal experience with starting a 1.5 or 2 HP, 240 vac, 2 wire submersible pump against that kind of head with an Outback Flex > Power2 (2 X VFXR3648A-01 inverters). > > The FP2 will also be powering standard off-grid loads. There is plenty of battery behind the inverters. If a soft-start solution is required, some specifics would be great. Grundfos doesn't seem to have an option for these requirements, solar-direct is not an option at this location. > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From dana at solarwork.com Wed Sep 23 10:21:58 2020 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2020 08:21:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pentair Pump power Message-ID: <000401d691b4$e6890ad0$b39b2070$@solarwork.com> Yes, Radian 8KW Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 7:18 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pentair Pump power Just curious, the 120VAC 1/2 HP submersible that has to date been in the well for the last 17 years has needed zero service, is there something about the Pentair set-up you're referring to that needs regular or occasional service? Believe me I understand your comment about schlepping service to some other poor soul, but.... Is the Pentair powered with 240 Vac inverter power? Bill On 9/22/2020 2:58 PM, Dana Orzel wrote: > If you have 240 VAC look at the Pentair wild AC pumps I have one at 20 GPM and am a believer. Tapers on - soft start, varies the volts & amperage with flow and tapers the amperage down as it reaches a full expansion tank. > > Even better my local well pump installer sells & services it so I do not have to! Getting a little smarter as I get older. > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On > Behalf Of frenergy > Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 1:12 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pump power > > Wrenchers, > > We're upgrading an off-grid water system. Dynamic head > while pumping at 20 GPM is 150 ft from water level to wellhead and > then its 85 ft vertical to storage tank so 235 ft total head to open > discharge. We would like to get most of that 20 GPM, we need to know > if there is personal experience with starting a 1.5 or 2 HP, 240 vac, > 2 wire submersible pump against that kind of head with an Outback Flex > Power2 (2 X VFXR3648A-01 inverters). > > The FP2 will also be powering standard off-grid loads. There is plenty of battery behind the inverters. If a soft-start solution is required, some specifics would be great. Grundfos doesn't seem to have an option for these requirements, solar-direct is not an option at this location. > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Wed Sep 23 10:22:10 2020 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2020 10:22:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pentair Pump power In-Reply-To: <002101d6912b$79a27700$6ce76500$@solarwork.com> References: <002101d6912b$79a27700$6ce76500$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: My experience with the Pentair variable speed pool pumps is that they start full speed and then slow, which is exactly what you don't want. The well pumps may be different. On Tue, Sep 22, 2020 at 5:58 PM Dana Orzel wrote: > If you have 240 VAC look at the Pentair wild AC pumps I have one at 20 GPM > and am a believer. Tapers on - soft start, varies the volts & amperage with > flow and tapers the amperage down as it reaches a full expansion tank. > > Even better my local well pump installer sells & services it so I do not > have to! Getting a little smarter as I get older. > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of frenergy > Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 1:12 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pump power > > Wrenchers, > > We're upgrading an off-grid water system. Dynamic head while > pumping at 20 GPM is 150 ft from water level to wellhead and then its 85 ft > vertical to storage tank so 235 ft total head to open discharge. We would > like to get most of that 20 GPM, we need to know if there is personal > experience with starting a 1.5 or 2 HP, 240 vac, 2 wire submersible pump > against that kind of head with an Outback Flex > Power2 (2 X VFXR3648A-01 inverters). > > The FP2 will also be powering standard off-grid loads. There > is plenty of battery behind the inverters. If a soft-start solution is > required, some specifics would be great. Grundfos doesn't seem to have an > option for these requirements, solar-direct is not an option at this > location. > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Sep 23 10:31:19 2020 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2020 08:31:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pentair Pump power In-Reply-To: References: <002101d6912b$79a27700$6ce76500$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <000501d691b6$351d33f0$9f579bd0$@solarwork.com> 3 years in service now & no service required or needed. I installed a large -120 gallon well expansion tank as usual [Typ off grid thinking -- reduce the # of start surge] & found out it was not necessary. The start up is so tapered smooth that I could have used a 40 gal tank, when I spec another OG system I will not use an oversized storage tank. Ghost load on the controller [super smart, digital & always awake] is very slight. The controller uses a transducer not a pressure switch measures PSI in tenths of a PSI. I have not tried to measure the controller load asleep, as it is hard wired in. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 7:18 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pentair Pump power Just curious, the 120VAC 1/2 HP submersible that has to date been in the well for the last 17 years has needed zero service, is there something about the Pentair set-up you're referring to that needs regular or occasional service? Believe me I understand your comment about schlepping service to some other poor soul, but.... Is the Pentair powered with 240 Vac inverter power? Bill On 9/22/2020 2:58 PM, Dana Orzel wrote: > If you have 240 VAC look at the Pentair wild AC pumps I have one at 20 GPM and am a believer. Tapers on - soft start, varies the volts & amperage with flow and tapers the amperage down as it reaches a full expansion tank. > > Even better my local well pump installer sells & services it so I do not have to! Getting a little smarter as I get older. > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On > Behalf Of frenergy > Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 1:12 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pump power > > Wrenchers, > > We're upgrading an off-grid water system. Dynamic head > while pumping at 20 GPM is 150 ft from water level to wellhead and > then its 85 ft vertical to storage tank so 235 ft total head to open > discharge. We would like to get most of that 20 GPM, we need to know > if there is personal experience with starting a 1.5 or 2 HP, 240 vac, > 2 wire submersible pump against that kind of head with an Outback Flex > Power2 (2 X VFXR3648A-01 inverters). > > The FP2 will also be powering standard off-grid loads. There is plenty of battery behind the inverters. If a soft-start solution is required, some specifics would be great. Grundfos doesn't seem to have an option for these requirements, solar-direct is not an option at this location. > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Sep 23 11:25:09 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2020 09:25:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pentair Pump power In-Reply-To: <000501d691b6$351d33f0$9f579bd0$@solarwork.com> References: <000501d691b6$351d33f0$9f579bd0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Hi Dana What did it cost? Just the parts. Thx Jay > On Sep 23, 2020, at 8:31 AM, Dana Orzel wrote: > > 3 years in service now & no service required or needed. I installed a large -120 gallon well expansion tank as usual [Typ off grid thinking -- reduce the # of start surge] & found out it was not necessary. The start up is so tapered smooth that I could have used a 40 gal tank, when I spec another OG system I will not use an oversized storage tank. Ghost load on the controller [super smart, digital & always awake] is very slight. The controller uses a transducer not a pressure switch measures PSI in tenths of a PSI. I have not tried to measure the controller load asleep, as it is hard wired in. > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of frenergy > Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 7:18 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pentair Pump power > > Just curious, the 120VAC 1/2 HP submersible that has to date been in the well for the last 17 years has needed zero service, is there something about the Pentair set-up you're referring to that needs regular or occasional service? Believe me I understand your comment about schlepping service to some other poor soul, but.... > > Is the Pentair powered with 240 Vac inverter power? > > Bill > >> On 9/22/2020 2:58 PM, Dana Orzel wrote: >> If you have 240 VAC look at the Pentair wild AC pumps I have one at 20 GPM and am a believer. Tapers on - soft start, varies the volts & amperage with flow and tapers the amperage down as it reaches a full expansion tank. >> >> Even better my local well pump installer sells & services it so I do not have to! Getting a little smarter as I get older. >> >> >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>  Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches On >> Behalf Of frenergy >> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 1:12 PM >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pump power >> >> Wrenchers, >> >> We're upgrading an off-grid water system. Dynamic head >> while pumping at 20 GPM is 150 ft from water level to wellhead and >> then its 85 ft vertical to storage tank so 235 ft total head to open >> discharge. We would like to get most of that 20 GPM, we need to know >> if there is personal experience with starting a 1.5 or 2 HP, 240 vac, >> 2 wire submersible pump against that kind of head with an Outback Flex >> Power2 (2 X VFXR3648A-01 inverters). >> >> The FP2 will also be powering standard off-grid loads. There is plenty of battery behind the inverters. If a soft-start solution is required, some specifics would be great. Grundfos doesn't seem to have an option for these requirements, solar-direct is not an option at this location. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> >> -- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From dana at solarwork.com Wed Sep 23 12:00:04 2020 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2020 10:00:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pentair Pump power In-Reply-To: References: <000501d691b6$351d33f0$9f579bd0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <001501d691c2$9b1de940$d159bbc0$@solarwork.com> It was an installed price with pump set at 100' - 3 years ago. I had the wire.... Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2020 9:25 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pentair Pump power Hi Dana What did it cost? Just the parts. Thx Jay > On Sep 23, 2020, at 8:31 AM, Dana Orzel wrote: > > 3 years in service now & no service required or needed. I installed a large -120 gallon well expansion tank as usual [Typ off grid thinking -- reduce the # of start surge] & found out it was not necessary. The start up is so tapered smooth that I could have used a 40 gal tank, when I spec another OG system I will not use an oversized storage tank. Ghost load on the controller [super smart, digital & always awake] is very slight. The controller uses a transducer not a pressure switch measures PSI in tenths of a PSI. I have not tried to measure the controller load asleep, as it is hard wired in. > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On > Behalf Of frenergy > Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 7:18 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pentair Pump power > > Just curious, the 120VAC 1/2 HP submersible that has to date been in the well for the last 17 years has needed zero service, is there something about the Pentair set-up you're referring to that needs regular or occasional service? Believe me I understand your comment about schlepping service to some other poor soul, but.... > > Is the Pentair powered with 240 Vac inverter power? > > Bill > >> On 9/22/2020 2:58 PM, Dana Orzel wrote: >> If you have 240 VAC look at the Pentair wild AC pumps I have one at 20 GPM and am a believer. Tapers on - soft start, varies the volts & amperage with flow and tapers the amperage down as it reaches a full expansion tank. >> >> Even better my local well pump installer sells & services it so I do not have to! Getting a little smarter as I get older. >> >> >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>  Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches On >> Behalf Of frenergy >> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 1:12 PM >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pump power >> >> Wrenchers, >> >> We're upgrading an off-grid water system. Dynamic head >> while pumping at 20 GPM is 150 ft from water level to wellhead and >> then its 85 ft vertical to storage tank so 235 ft total head to open >> discharge. We would like to get most of that 20 GPM, we need to know >> if there is personal experience with starting a 1.5 or 2 HP, 240 vac, >> 2 wire submersible pump against that kind of head with an Outback >> Flex >> Power2 (2 X VFXR3648A-01 inverters). >> >> The FP2 will also be powering standard off-grid loads. There is plenty of battery behind the inverters. If a soft-start solution is required, some specifics would be great. Grundfos doesn't seem to have an option for these requirements, solar-direct is not an option at this location. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> >> -- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Sep 23 12:43:35 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2020 09:43:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pentair Pump power In-Reply-To: <001501d691c2$9b1de940$d159bbc0$@solarwork.com> References: <000501d691b6$351d33f0$9f579bd0$@solarwork.com> <001501d691c2$9b1de940$d159bbc0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <0080834326d89116cffa30f75a87501c@127.0.0.1> The constant pressure pump types often do not need a big expansion tank. I did a test on Grundfos and counted cycles with the small pressure tank and the large. The large tank cut cycles by 1/3. They really are not cycles like a pressure switch system because of variable speeds. I have even used a pressure switch on a constant pressure variable speed pump to reduce cycles at night for an offgrid restaurant. It does work. Big tanks save big bucks. If you have one, use it! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 23 Sep 2020 10:00:04 -0600, Dana Orzel wrote: > It was an installed price with pump set at 100' - 3 years ago. I had the > wire.... > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of > Jay > Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2020 9:25 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pentair Pump power > > Hi Dana > > What did it cost? Just the parts. > > Thx > Jay > >> On Sep 23, 2020, at 8:31 AM, Dana Orzel wrote: >> >> 3 years in service now & no service required or needed. I installed a >> large -120 gallon well expansion tank as usual [Typ off grid thinking -- >> reduce the # of start surge] & found out it was not necessary. The start >> up is so tapered smooth that I could have used a 40 gal tank, when I spec >> another OG system I will not use an oversized storage tank. Ghost load on >> the controller [super smart, digital & always awake] is very slight. The >> controller uses a transducer not a pressure switch measures PSI in tenths >> of a PSI. I have not tried to measure the controller load asleep, as it >> is hard wired in. >> >> >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>  Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches On >> Behalf Of frenergy >> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 7:18 PM >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pentair Pump power >> >> Just curious, the 120VAC 1/2 HP submersible that has to date been in the >> well for the last 17 years has needed zero service, is there something >> about the Pentair set-up you're referring to that needs regular or >> occasional service? Believe me I understand your comment about >> schlepping service to some other poor soul, but.... >> >> Is the Pentair powered with 240 Vac inverter power? >> >> Bill >> >>> On 9/22/2020 2:58 PM, Dana Orzel wrote: >>> If you have 240 VAC look at the Pentair wild AC pumps I have one at 20 >>> GPM and am a believer. Tapers on - soft start, varies the volts & >>> amperage with flow and tapers the amperage down as it reaches a full >>> expansion tank. >>> >>> Even better my local well pump installer sells & services it so I do >>> not have to! Getting a little smarter as I get older. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >>> C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >>> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com >>> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>>  Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RE-wrenches On >>> Behalf Of frenergy >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 1:12 PM >>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pump power >>> >>> Wrenchers, >>> >>> We're upgrading an off-grid water system. Dynamic head >>> while pumping at 20 GPM is 150 ft from water level to wellhead and >>> then its 85 ft vertical to storage tank so 235 ft total head to open >>> discharge. We would like to get most of that 20 GPM, we need to know >>> if there is personal experience with starting a 1.5 or 2 HP, 240 vac, >>> 2 wire submersible pump against that kind of head with an Outback >>> Flex >>> Power2 (2 X VFXR3648A-01 inverters). >>> >>> The FP2 will also be powering standard off-grid loads. >>> There is plenty of battery behind the inverters. If a >>> soft-start solution is required, some specifics would be >>> great. Grundfos doesn't seem to have an option for these >>> requirements, solar-direct is not an option at this >>> location. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> www.frenergy.net >>> >>> >>> -- >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> -- >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> >> -- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Sat Sep 26 12:15:21 2020 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2020 09:15:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Admin posting: Biographies Message-ID: <1601137142079.018ae0293469cfc8@re-wrenches.org> Hi folks. I get a bit nervous when I don't see posts for a few days, so this is a good time to post an admin message. If you have any questions or comments, please contact me off list. Wrenches, it's probably a good idea to update your biography page every now and then. I know that other Wrenches use it to find your info, but occasionally the public comes upon it too. Please check yours out sometime soon. There's a link to the bio pages in the footer of every Wrench list message, including this one. From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Sep 28 08:07:10 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 08:07:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Winco Message-ID: <24ef531155565157bf88c760e08a05d8@redwoodalliance.org> Hello Wrenches, Has anyone had experience with using the Tri-Fuel Winco Generator off grid? https://www.h-mac.com/winco-hps12000he.html?gdffi=9f0856ca9fe841edaab22d427404fe06&gdfms=F21E892BB0E24ED49DD91F79A4E456B8&gclid=CjwKCAiAiarfBRASEiwAw1tYvx0vCjfjJJMJ2ldu_rKvL19aw2TtJ3WRnvs8LEJAVm3XZTE6Xo06DBoCxrMQAvD_BwE Is it a reliable unit? Can it be auto started without voiding the warranty. Thank you, Drake -- From dana at solarwork.com Mon Sep 28 10:52:18 2020 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 08:52:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Winco In-Reply-To: <24ef531155565157bf88c760e08a05d8@redwoodalliance.org> References: <24ef531155565157bf88c760e08a05d8@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <000a01d695a6$f7601fb0$e6205f10$@solarwork.com> Long ago, wow I had no idea they were still in existence. It is a 3600 RPM screamer, air cooled as reliable as most air cooled 3600 RPM units back in the day no idea as to where it is built today or reliability currently... Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sent: Monday, September 28, 2020 6:07 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Winco Hello Wrenches, Has anyone had experience with using the Tri-Fuel Winco Generator off grid? https://www.h-mac.com/winco-hps12000he.html?gdffi=9f0856ca9fe841edaab22d427404fe06&gdfms=F21E892BB0E24ED49DD91F79A4E456B8&gclid=CjwKCAiAiarfBRASEiwAw1tYvx0vCjfjJJMJ2ldu_rKvL19aw2TtJ3WRnvs8LEJAVm3XZTE6Xo06DBoCxrMQAvD_BwE Is it a reliable unit? Can it be auto started without voiding the warranty. Thank you, Drake -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Sep 28 11:23:04 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 08:23:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Winco In-Reply-To: <24ef531155565157bf88c760e08a05d8@redwoodalliance.org> References: <24ef531155565157bf88c760e08a05d8@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Hi Drake, Is the Winco the one that is sold at costco? If so, I have used that for clients during wildfires. I buy a truckload (4) and try to keep it full all summer. Never tried AGS because I do not have liability for ags gensets. Too many people have been sued for fire damage with auto start. The genset is as reliable as you can expect in this price range, 700 - $900. Sould last 5 years and I have seen costco take them back, well used. I am not a fan of gensets and many of my folks do not own one in the south west. People do need them for various reasons even here. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 08:07:10 -0400, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Has anyone had experience with using the Tri-Fuel Winco Generator off > grid? > > https://www.h-mac.com/winco-hps12000he.html?gdffi=9f0856ca9fe841edaab22d427404fe06&gdfms=F21E892BB0E24ED49DD91F79A4E456B8&gclid=CjwKCAiAiarfBRASEiwAw1tYvx0vCjfjJJMJ2ldu_rKvL19aw2TtJ3WRnvs8LEJAVm3XZTE6Xo06DBoCxrMQAvD_BwE > > Is it a reliable unit? Can it be auto started without voiding the > warranty. > > Thank you, > > Drake From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Sep 28 12:05:22 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 12:05:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] License Complaints for Bad Work Message-ID: Does anyone have any thoughts on turning in a fellow licensed contractor for egregious violations of code and workmanship practices? I ran across one this weekend that should definitely not own a ladder or even a screwdriver. I'm compelled to turn him into the state, but I don't really want to be "that guy." I'm encouraging the homeowner to do something about it, but the process is rather difficult. P.S. This happens to be an Electrical Contractor, not a Solar Contractor. In Florida, both specialties can install PV. "Funny/not funny" pictures attached, and there are MANY other scary deficiencies. 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Name: Bad-Solar-00005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 218200 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Sep 28 13:26:41 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 10:26:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex GT 100 info sought Message-ID: <0c5568e2561a4f943aa0a3be87958cc9@127.0.0.1> A friend of a friend is looking for repair of the Xantrex GT100. It is 3 phase 200 amps. Would appreciate any info on who can repair or what has been used to replace this out of support life inverter. He thinks it needs IGBT.... Thank-you ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Mon Sep 28 13:27:38 2020 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 13:27:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] License Complaints for Bad Work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do you not have electrical inspectors out there? I'm also not usually one to rat on another contractor but this is burn the house down bad. On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 12:14 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Does anyone have any thoughts on turning in a fellow licensed contractor > for egregious violations of code and workmanship practices? I ran across > one this weekend that should definitely not own a ladder or even a > screwdriver. I'm compelled to turn him into the state, but I don't really > want to be "that guy." I'm encouraging the homeowner to do something about > it, but the process is rather difficult. > > P.S. This happens to be an Electrical Contractor, not a Solar Contractor. > In Florida, both specialties can install PV. "Funny/not funny" pictures > attached, and there are MANY other scary deficiencies. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Sep 28 13:40:50 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 10:40:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] License Complaints for Bad Work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It might be best to get the property owner involved and have him call the JHA to re-inspect the install due to safety concerns and install abnormalities not consistent with rules, regulations and roofing best practices. Jerry On Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 9:14 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Does anyone have any thoughts on turning in a fellow licensed contractor > for egregious violations of code and workmanship practices? I ran across > one this weekend that should definitely not own a ladder or even a > screwdriver. I'm compelled to turn him into the state, but I don't really > want to be "that guy." I'm encouraging the homeowner to do something about > it, but the process is rather difficult. > > P.S. This happens to be an Electrical Contractor, not a Solar Contractor. > In Florida, both specialties can install PV. "Funny/not funny" pictures > attached, and there are MANY other scary deficiencies. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Sep 28 13:46:55 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 11:46:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] License Complaints for Bad Work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <97bd7ea2-1f0b-9ece-041b-efd835cd21cc@solarray.com> Instead of "ratting them out",  why not just invite an inspector to look at that work, and decide for themselves.  If they didn't pull permits, they're in trouble, and if they did and passed, the whole system is in trouble. Personally, I'm getting very tired of substandard work in the solar field.  In the 90s, folks didn't know any better, and equipment availability was tough too.  In 2020, there is no excuse, and these guys are dragging the entire industry and our collective reputation down.  They've got to get with the program and do good work, or stay out of the business.  Period.  Its no longer something we can continue to tolerate.  I used to clean up other peoples' messes, but I'm tired of it. Just because I hold an electrical contractor license doesn't mean I can go wire a hospital operating room or X-ray machine.  You specialize, and do the best you can to understand and stay on top of your chosen specialty.  People on this list generally all want to learn more, avoid mistakes, and improve our designs and workmanship.  It takes a lot of extra time and effort to be good at what we do.  We can't allow idiots that don't even bother, make us all look bad. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/28/20 11:27 AM, Will White wrote: > Do you not have electrical inspectors out there? I'm also not usually > one to rat on another contractor but this is burn the house down bad. > > On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 12:14 PM Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > Does anyone have any thoughts on turning in a fellow licensed > contractor for egregious violations of code and workmanship > practices? I ran across one this weekend that should definitely > not own a ladder or even a screwdriver. I'm compelled to turn him > into the state, but I don't really want to be "that guy." I'm > encouraging the homeowner to do something about it, but the > process is rather difficult. > > P.S. This happens to be an Electrical Contractor, not a Solar > Contractor. In Florida, both specialties can install PV. > "Funny/not funny" pictures attached, and there are MANY > other scary deficiencies. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change > . > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Sep 28 13:41:04 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 13:41:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] License Complaints for Bad Work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There were multiple failed rough inspections, but I think there were so many violations that the inspector didn't even make it up into the attic. This happens to be right at the top of the ladder access to the attic! You can't miss it! Ultimately this never passed final inspections (except structural because the contractor perjured himself on an inspection affidavit). The whole system is going to have to be removed, roof repaired, and system reinstalled properly. Subsequent to his shoddy work, another electrical contractor came in and installed a whole home generator with transfer switch, unwittingly moving the PV AC fusible disconnect from the line side of the existing to the load side of the new service disconnect. No matter... the fusible disconnect was wired wrong and was missing a grounding bushing. No surprise there. It all needs redoing. I just remembered - the plans showed tile hooks also, so they didn't even try to follow the permitted plans. I don't like hooks in SW Florida anyway due to wind, so at least they chose a better attachment in the Universal Tile Mount, but there was no attempt to install it correctly. Jason On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 1:27 PM Will White wrote: > Do you not have electrical inspectors out there? I'm also not usually one > to rat on another contractor but this is burn the house down bad. > > On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 12:14 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Does anyone have any thoughts on turning in a fellow licensed contractor >> for egregious violations of code and workmanship practices? I ran across >> one this weekend that should definitely not own a ladder or even a >> screwdriver. I'm compelled to turn him into the state, but I don't really >> want to be "that guy." I'm encouraging the homeowner to do something about >> it, but the process is rather difficult. >> >> P.S. This happens to be an Electrical Contractor, not a Solar Contractor. >> In Florida, both specialties can install PV. "Funny/not funny" pictures >> attached, and there are MANY other scary deficiencies. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Sep 28 15:25:29 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 15:25:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Winco In-Reply-To: References: <24ef531155565157bf88c760e08a05d8@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <6e365a721a065510c843426be1013ade@redwoodalliance.org> I don't know about COSTCO. A client has one, and it worked well for years. This model is nearly 12 kW and costs $3,751.30. The client wants his unit moved to another system, and wants the autostart feature to work again. --- On 2020-09-28 11:23, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > Hi Drake, > > Is the Winco the one that is sold at costco? If so, I have used that > for > clients during wildfires. I buy a truckload (4) and try to keep it full > all > summer. > > Never tried AGS because I do not have liability for ags gensets. Too > many > people have been sued for fire damage with auto start. > > The genset is as reliable as you can expect in this price range, 700 - > $900. Sould last 5 years and I have seen costco take them back, well > used. > > I am not a fan of gensets and many of my folks do not own one in the > south > west. People do need them for various reasons even here. Good Luck! > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 08:07:10 -0400, > drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > wrote: >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Has anyone had experience with using the Tri-Fuel Winco Generator off >> grid? >> >> > https://www.h-mac.com/winco-hps12000he.html?gdffi=9f0856ca9fe841edaab22d427404fe06&gdfms=F21E892BB0E24ED49DD91F79A4E456B8&gclid=CjwKCAiAiarfBRASEiwAw1tYvx0vCjfjJJMJ2ldu_rKvL19aw2TtJ3WRnvs8LEJAVm3XZTE6Xo06DBoCxrMQAvD_BwE >> >> Is it a reliable unit? Can it be auto started without voiding the >> warranty. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Mon Sep 28 16:06:05 2020 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 13:06:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] License Complaints for Bad Work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would suggest a led tile roof pipe Jack to go over those stand offs To be installed by the original roofer. Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future. 503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > On Sep 28, 2020, at 10:47 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >  > There were multiple failed rough inspections, but I think there were so many violations that the inspector didn't even make it up into the attic. This happens to be right at the top of the ladder access to the attic! You can't miss it! Ultimately this never passed final inspections (except structural because the contractor perjured himself on an inspection affidavit). The whole system is going to have to be removed, roof repaired, and system reinstalled properly. > > Subsequent to his shoddy work, another electrical contractor came in and installed a whole home generator with transfer switch, unwittingly moving the PV AC fusible disconnect from the line side of the existing to the load side of the new service disconnect. No matter... the fusible disconnect was wired wrong and was missing a grounding bushing. No surprise there. It all needs redoing. > > I just remembered - the plans showed tile hooks also, so they didn't even try to follow the permitted plans. I don't like hooks in SW Florida anyway due to wind, so at least they chose a better attachment in the Universal Tile Mount, but there was no attempt to install it correctly. > > Jason > > > >> On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 1:27 PM Will White wrote: >> Do you not have electrical inspectors out there? I'm also not usually one to rat on another contractor but this is burn the house down bad. >> >>> On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 12:14 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> Does anyone have any thoughts on turning in a fellow licensed contractor for egregious violations of code and workmanship practices? I ran across one this weekend that should definitely not own a ladder or even a screwdriver. I'm compelled to turn him into the state, but I don't really want to be "that guy." I'm encouraging the homeowner to do something about it, but the process is rather difficult. >>> >>> P.S. This happens to be an Electrical Contractor, not a Solar Contractor. In Florida, both specialties can install PV. "Funny/not funny" pictures attached, and there are MANY other scary deficiencies. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Sep 28 17:20:55 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 14:20:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] License Complaints for Bad Work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would sleep on any decision you make on this. You might just get the Barney Fife of code inspection. Things can always get worse for everyone. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 13:06:05 -0700, Solar Energy Solutions wrote: I would suggest a led tile roof pipe Jack to go over those stand offs To be installed by the original roofer. ANDREW KOYAANISQATSI President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. _The BRIGHT CHOICE_ _ _ SINCE 1987, HELPING YOU AND YOUR PORTLAND NEIGHBORS MOVE TOWARDS AN ENVIRONMENTALLY SUSTAINABLE FUTURE. 503-238-4502 [3] www.SolarEnergyOregon.com [4] On Sep 28, 2020, at 10:47 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: There were multiple failed rough inspections, but I think there were so many violations that the inspector didn't even make it up into the attic. This happens to be right at the top of the ladder access to the attic! You can't miss it! Ultimately this never passed final inspections (except structural because the contractor perjured himself on an inspection affidavit). The whole system is going to have to be removed, roof repaired, and system reinstalled properly. Subsequent to his shoddy work, another electrical contractor came in and installed a whole home generator with transfer switch, unwittingly moving the PV AC fusible disconnect from the line side of the existing to the load side of the new service disconnect. No matter... the fusible disconnect was wired wrong and was missing a grounding bushing. No surprise there. It all needs redoing. I just remembered - the plans showed tile hooks also, so they didn't even try to follow the permitted plans. I don't like hooks in SW Florida anyway due to wind, so at least they chose a better attachment in the Universal Tile Mount, but there was no attempt to install it correctly. Jason On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 1:27 PM Will White wrote: Do you not have electrical inspectors out there? I'm also not usually one to rat on another contractor but this is burn the house down bad. On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 12:14 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: Does anyone have any thoughts on turning in a fellow licensed contractor for egregious violations of code and workmanship practices? I ran across one this weekend that should definitely not own a ladder or even a screwdriver. I'm compelled to turn him into the state, but I don't really want to be "that guy." I'm encouraging the homeowner to do something about it, but the process is rather difficult. P.S. This happens to be an Electrical Contractor, not a Solar Contractor. In Florida, both specialties can install PV. "Funny/not funny" pictures attached, and there are MANY other scary deficiencies. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [7] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://webmail.sti.net/tel:503-238-4502 [4] http://www.solarenergyoregon.com/ [5] mailto:will at solarenergy.org [6] mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com [7] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/bb835033c55c140f379dd488bc9ee7f3288d0e80?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=a40d74b82774a430 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 09:26:59 2020 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2020 09:26:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika Support by chance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm a PWRCell dealer and a Generac generator dealer, I could ask if you want. Contact me off list and I will get the serial number and find out. Generac will offer generator input soon, likely before the end of the year. On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:00 AM Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > If anyone has any info on how to get a hold of The former PIKA ENERGY > support group, please contact me off list. > Or if anyone knows where one could get one of their inverters > rebuilt/repaired let me know. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Sep 29 10:39:44 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2020 10:39:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] License Complaints for Bad Work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I got some advice from the local code violation department chief. He said to have the homeowner file a complaint locally. They will investigate and help the homeowner file a complaint with state licensing. They can revoke his local competency card, but since he is state-licensed, the AHJ can't do much unless the building official turns him in for willful violations. On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 5:20 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > I would sleep on any decision you make on this. You might just get the > Barney Fife of code inspection. Things can always get worse for everyone. > Good Luck! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 13:06:05 -0700, Solar Energy Solutions < > solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com> wrote: > > I would suggest a led tile roof pipe Jack to go over those stand offs To > be installed by the original roofer. > > *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* > President > > > *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.The BRIGHT CHOICE* > > *Since 1987,** helping you and your * > *Portland neighbors move** towards an environmentally sustainable future.* > > > *503-238-4502 <503-238-4502>www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > * > > On Sep 28, 2020, at 10:47 AM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > > There were multiple failed rough inspections, but I think there were so > many violations that the inspector didn't even make it up into the attic. > This happens to be right at the top of the ladder access to the attic! > You can't miss it! Ultimately this never passed final inspections (except > structural because the contractor perjured himself on an inspection > affidavit). The whole system is going to have to be removed, roof repaired, > and system reinstalled properly. > > Subsequent to his shoddy work, another electrical contractor came in and > installed a whole home generator with transfer switch, unwittingly moving > the PV AC fusible disconnect from the line side of the existing to the load > side of the new service disconnect. No matter... the fusible disconnect was > wired wrong and was missing a grounding bushing. No surprise there. It all > needs redoing. > > I just remembered - the plans showed tile hooks also, so they didn't even > try to follow the permitted plans. I don't like hooks in SW Florida anyway > due to wind, so at least they chose a better attachment in the Universal > Tile Mount, but there was no attempt to install it correctly. > > Jason > > > On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 1:27 PM Will White wrote: > >> Do you not have electrical inspectors out there? I'm also not usually one >> to rat on another contractor but this is burn the house down bad. >> >> On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 12:14 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> Does anyone have any thoughts on turning in a fellow licensed contractor >>> for egregious violations of code and workmanship practices? I ran across >>> one this weekend that should definitely not own a ladder or even a >>> screwdriver. I'm compelled to turn him into the state, but I don't really >>> want to be "that guy." I'm encouraging the homeowner to do something about >>> it, but the process is rather difficult. >>> >>> P.S. This happens to be an Electrical Contractor, not a Solar >>> Contractor. In Florida, both specialties can install PV. "Funny/not funny" >>> pictures attached, and there are MANY other scary deficiencies. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chadwaits at netzerosolar.net Tue Sep 29 15:55:55 2020 From: chadwaits at netzerosolar.net (Chad Waits) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2020 12:55:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Source PV/H2O Message-ID: Hey Wrenches, Any of you guys work with this product before Source . Curious about your experiences if you have. Thanks! Chad Waits President-Net Zero Solar Cell: (520) 270-4873 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Tue Sep 29 18:08:43 2020 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2020 22:08:43 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika Support by chance? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: This is for a PIKA wind turbine. We have since been in contact with that support group at Generac. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Sep 29, 2020, at 7:27 AM, Chris Mason wrote:  I'm a PWRCell dealer and a Generac generator dealer, I could ask if you want. Contact me off list and I will get the serial number and find out. Generac will offer generator input soon, likely before the end of the year. On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:00 AM Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: If anyone has any info on how to get a hold of The former PIKA ENERGY support group, please contact me off list. Or if anyone knows where one could get one of their inverters rebuilt/repaired let me know. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Sep 29 19:00:45 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2020 16:00:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Source PV/H2O In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Chad - I have no experience installing this product, but bumped into it a few years ago when someone reached out to us to see if we could install it. So, I have no idea how well it works. However, for our market which is grid tied PV and the SF Bay Area, it seemed a lot more cost effective and probably reliable to just install a grid tied PV system and some sort of electric atmospheric water generator (such as this found on Amazon ) - or maybe even a simple dehumidifier rigged up to a hose. Perhaps the Source product could make sense for areas offgrid? I have no idea. Best, August On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 12:56 PM Chad Waits wrote: > Hey Wrenches, > > Any of you guys work with this product before Source > . Curious about your experiences if you have. > > Thanks! > > Chad Waits > President-Net Zero Solar > Cell: (520) 270-4873 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Tue Sep 29 19:11:51 2020 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2020 17:11:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Source PV/H2O In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <74F394D7-A497-47B1-9300-E8C6E270C3CE@solarenergy.org> I believe that the last time I looked into it it had to have internet connectivity, which wasn’t going to happen. Brian > On Sep 29, 2020, at 5:00 PM, August Goers wrote: > >  > Hi Chad - > > I have no experience installing this product, but bumped into it a few years ago when someone reached out to us to see if we could install it. So, I have no idea how well it works. > > However, for our market which is grid tied PV and the SF Bay Area, it seemed a lot more cost effective and probably reliable to just install a grid tied PV system and some sort of electric atmospheric water generator (such as this found on Amazon) - or maybe even a simple dehumidifier rigged up to a hose. > > Perhaps the Source product could make sense for areas offgrid? I have no idea. > > Best, August > > >> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 12:56 PM Chad Waits wrote: >> Hey Wrenches, >> >> Any of you guys work with this product before Source. Curious about your experiences if you have. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Chad Waits >> President-Net Zero Solar >> Cell: (520) 270-4873 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Wed Sep 30 13:43:56 2020 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2020 10:43:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext inverter non warranty repair Message-ID: <174e01d1668.124de325782449.5035689160031928478@greenwired.com> Is there there anyone one out there working on Conext XW 6848s? I have a unit out of warranty that has a fried communication unit I need to get repaired. Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1596050015677007_1701277005.png Type: image/png Size: 16298 bytes Desc: not available URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Wed Sep 30 17:59:04 2020 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don at energysolarnow.com) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2020 14:59:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commissioning issues with Enphase Ensemble Message-ID: <20200930145904.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.5fc4b4b1ea.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Sep 30 18:23:25 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2020 15:23:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext inverter non warranty repair In-Reply-To: <174e01d1668.124de325782449.5035689160031928478@greenwired.com> References: <174e01d1668.124de325782449.5035689160031928478@greenwired.com> Message-ID: Hi Andrew, Question, did you ask Schneider who they recommended? Below are from the group here. I really have not needed any repairs and I use alot of XW's If they have SPD's and are not direct hit, they are extremely durable. Good Luck! SW4048 with board testing and repair by Craig Kilburn at Phantom Power Services. He was fast and reasonable. craig at phantompowerservices.com [1] Marysville Marine can replace XW welded relays. PJ Gonzalez Is there there anyone one out there working on Conext XW 6848s? I have a unit out of warranty that has a fried communication unit I need to get repaired. Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com [5] Links: ------ [1] mailto:craig at phantompowerservices.com [2] mailto:pgonzalez at inverterservicecenter.com [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [5] http://www.greenwired.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1596050015677007_1701277005.png Type: image/png Size: 16298 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 00:12:54 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2020 21:12:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commissioning issues with Enphase Ensemble In-Reply-To: <20200930145904.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.5fc4b4b1ea.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> References: <20200930145904.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.5fc4b4b1ea.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Enphase needs to focus on there inverters instead of all this other crap, they keep introducing battery tech but it never seams to stick. But hey that just me. On Wed, Sep 30, 2020, 3:37 PM wrote: > Wrenches- > I'm having a lot of difficulty commissioning my first Enphase Ensemble > installation. This is on a pre-existing microinverter installation. Have > been on the phone with tech support several times; each time they forward a > Tech Brief about commissioning that has different and slightly conflicting > instructions. It seems the order of turning on each box is critical. > Because of already-obsolete software that they ship with, the software must > be updated before activating the Envoy, Enpower, and Encharge or they will > not work. > And for some reason the Envoy must have both Wifi and cell connection > before even starting commissioning, but the slower cell connection is used > for software download so it takes up to 12 hours. > This commissioning must be done on-site using their latest version of > Installer Toolkit on a smart phone. Sure, there are buttons in Enlighten's > Activation page to add an Enpower and Encharge, but these do not work > "yet". > Enphase tech support says they are working on making this a single-day > process rather than the current multi-day commissioning. This does not even > count the actual hardware installation time. > > I would advise anyone against moving any loads to a new subpanel before > the entire system is commissioned and operating. > As of now I have an Enpower that mistakenly thinks it is off-grid when the > grid is present, so it has told the Envoy to shut down the PV > microinverters and batteries. These are relay controlled, therefore it is > not possible to have them connected without software control. It has > already committed the major crime of shutting down the backed-up loads > while the grid is still present. Enphase is working on it, but seem to be > developing software on the fly. I suppose their integration process has > been hit hard by pandemic distancing, and they are all working remotely. > > Has anyone else had a successful experience commissioning an Ensemble? > I'd like to hear about the doos-and-don'ts. > > Don Barch > don at energysolarnow.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarwrench at asis.com Thu Oct 1 11:34:56 2020 From: solarwrench at asis.com (Kelly Larson) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 08:34:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire Mitigation Plans (NEC 691.10) Message-ID: <4a0d7a5e-c26f-c1f7-88ed-fd4698e70eb9@asis.com> Hi fellow wrenches, Does anybody have examples of what they've seen used for a “Fire Mitigation Plan” for compliance with 691.10, or guidance on what should be in an appropriate Fire Mitigation Plan. I imagine the level of complexity in such plans could be quite regional, given the wide variability of fire risk across the country? I have not run across the need for a Fire Mitigation Plan, but imagine that some of you have.  What suggestions do you have? Thank you in advance, Kelly ~~~~~~~~~~~ Kelly Larson 707-223-3209 Box 18094 Reno, NV 89511 Electrical Engineer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ NABCEP Certified PV Installer Specialist™ NABCEP Certified PV Commissioning & Maintenance Specialist™ IREC Certified Master Trainer™/ PV CA Electrical Contractor# 868189 Solar Energy International Instructor SolarKelly.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Oct 1 17:00:13 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 17:00:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy Enclosures Message-ID: Can anyone point to any code issues with mounting an Envoy inside of a panelboard? For example, when installing a 3-phase commercial system with a large 400A AC combiner panelboard, there is often PLENTY of room to mount an Envoy inside on a DIN rail. Aside from the manufacturer's instructions not specifically listing this option, I can't see any reason that it would be prohibited. The only downside I can see would be slightly more difficult access to service buttons. I would argue that it is better. The DIN rail would be bonded to the enclosure. The DIN rail that Enphase ships with the Envoy is too short to accept a DIN mounted grounding terminal. When mounting in a non-metallic enclosure I run an EGC to a grounding terminal on a longer DIN rail that I install, not the included one. I'm wondering how people handle the lack of a ground terminal on the Envoy and whether they even run an EGC along with the circuit conductors when mounting an Envoy in a non-metallic enclosure. I have not been able to get a good answer from Enphase on how they expect this to be accomplished. I suppose if the Envoy does not need an equipment ground because it is insulated, and the DIN rail is not exposed once the Envoy is mounted. Maybe it is their opinion that no EGC is required, but I see the DIN rail as needing an EGC. Anyway, that's a lengthy side note. I'm mainly wondering if the Envoy can be mounted in a panelboard. Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Oct 1 19:01:36 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 16:01:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire Mitigation Plans (NEC 691.10) In-Reply-To: <4a0d7a5e-c26f-c1f7-88ed-fd4698e70eb9@asis.com> References: <4a0d7a5e-c26f-c1f7-88ed-fd4698e70eb9@asis.com> Message-ID: Hi Kelly, What is the wording of compliance with 691.10 please? Thx. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 1 Oct 2020 08:34:56 -0700, Kelly Larson wrote: Hi fellow wrenches, Does anybody have examples of what they've seen used for a "Fire Mitigation Plan" for compliance with 691.10, or guidance on what should be in an appropriate Fire Mitigation Plan. I imagine the level of complexity in such plans could be quite regional, given the wide variability of fire risk across the country? I have not run across the need for a Fire Mitigation Plan, but imagine that some of you have. What suggestions do you have? Thank you in advance, Kelly ~~~~~~~~~~~ Kelly Larson 707-223-3209 Box 18094 Reno, NV 89511 Electrical Engineer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional(tm) NABCEP Certified PV Installer Specialist(tm) NABCEP Certified PV Commissioning ">(tm) IREC Certified Master Trainer(tm)/ PV CA Electrical Contractor# 868189 Solar Energy International Instructor SolarKelly.com Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From louis at woofenden.net Thu Oct 1 21:12:39 2020 From: louis at woofenden.net (Louis Woofenden) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 18:12:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commissioning issues with Enphase Ensemble In-Reply-To: <20200930145904.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.5fc4b4b1ea.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> References: <20200930145904.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.5fc4b4b1ea.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <12123009-ea4a-ffdc-f927-8e0ac389131a@woofenden.net> Hi Don and Wrenches, I have commissioned four new Ensemble systems over the past two weeks. All storage additions to existing PV systems with Enphase microinverters. Although there are parts of the process that are a bit clunky, we have not had the problems you mention. I followed the instructions in the tech brief "Ensemble Commissioning via Installer Toolkit 3.0," linked at https://enphase.com/en-us/certification-support-program-guidelines (direct link to the PDF is https://enphase.com/sites/default/files/Tech%20Brief%20-%20Ensemble%20Commissioning%20via%20Installer%20Toolkit%203.0.pdf). My experience is that each of the four Enpower microgrid interconnection devices we've installed started up in passthrough mode, so if input breakers are on in the MID, backup loads have had power before commissioning is completed, and power has remained on for those backup loads even after we turned off the PV and ESS disconnects to wait for utility PTO after doing commissioning and functional testing. It did take us some time to do the Envoy software update before commissioning, and the system does require a second trip for functional testing after the Encharge battery software updates have been done (up to 12 hours). I haven't stuck on site for the Encharge/Enpower software updates, but it looks like they are taking 4-6 hours for us, based on percentage done by the time I've left the site (system sizes from 10.08 kWh to 20.16 kWh). Yeah, it's a second trip. I've used the trip to meet with electrical inspectors for these first systems. One "trick" I've used on the Envoy software update is that you once you scan in the serial numbers of each Enpower & Encharge with the installer toolkit and plug in the cell modem and wireless communications kit, the installer toolkit will allow the Envoy software update to work, and you can get it taken care of early in the day, while still hanging boxes, running conduit, etc. I would agree that there are definitely parts of the new installer toolkit that aren't intuitive. I missed the "edit" button on the devices page for a bit (which is not mentioned in the tech brief), and couldn't figure out how to increase the device count, for example. I also had to try the Envoy update twice for some of these systems, as it threw an error code the first time around, so for some of the systems it took closer to 45-50 minutes to get the Envoy software update done. Hope the next one goes more smoothly for you! New products, new challenges, I guess. Best, Louis Woofenden don at energysolarnow.com wrote on 9/30/20 2:59 PM: > Wrenches- > I'm having a lot of difficulty commissioning my first Enphase Ensemble > installation. This is on a pre-existing microinverter installation. > Have been on the phone with tech support several times; each time they > forward a Tech Brief about commissioning that has different and > slightly conflicting instructions. It seems the order of turning on > each box is critical. Because of already-obsolete software that they > ship with, the software must be updated before activating the Envoy, > Enpower, and Encharge or they will not work. > And for some reason the Envoy must have both Wifi and cell connection > before even starting commissioning, but the slower cell connection is > used for software download so it takes up to 12 hours. > This commissioning must be done on-site using their latest version of > Installer Toolkit on a smart phone. Sure, there are buttons in > Enlighten's Activation page to add an Enpower and Encharge, but these > do not work "yet". > Enphase tech support says they are working on making this a single-day > process rather than the current multi-day commissioning. This does not > even count the actual hardware installation time. > > I would advise anyone against moving any loads to a new subpanel > before the entire system is commissioned and operating. > As of now I have an Enpower that mistakenly thinks it is off-grid when > the grid is present, so it has told the Envoy to shut down the PV > microinverters and batteries. These are relay controlled, therefore it > is not possible to have them connected without software control.  It > has already committed the major crime of shutting down the backed-up > loads while the grid is still present. Enphase is working on it, but > seem to be developing software on the fly. I suppose their integration > process has been hit hard by pandemic distancing, and they are all > working remotely. > > Has anyone else had a successful experience commissioning an Ensemble? > I'd like to hear about the doos-and-don'ts. > > Don Barch > don at energysolarnow.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -- Louis Woofenden Engineering Director Net Zero Solar, LLC 101. W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 Arizona ROC #248710, 259756, 259521 Phone:520.207.4053 Ex. 3 Cell:520.237.5040 Fax:520.203.7230 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Oct 1 21:17:20 2020 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 21:17:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire Mitigation Plans (NEC 691.10) In-Reply-To: References: <4a0d7a5e-c26f-c1f7-88ed-fd4698e70eb9@asis.com> Message-ID: <028201d69859$c8d21210$5a763630$@glbcc.com> 691.10 Arc-Fault Mitigation. PV systems that do not comply with the requirements of 690.11 shall include details of fire mitigation plans to address dc arc-faults in the documentation required in 691.6. 691.11 Fence Grounding. Fence grounding requirements and details shall be included in the documentation required in 691.6. 2017 NEC From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2020 7:02 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire Mitigation Plans (NEC 691.10) Hi Kelly, What is the wording of compliance with 691.10 please? Thx. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 1 Oct 2020 08:34:56 -0700, Kelly Larson > wrote: Hi fellow wrenches, Does anybody have examples of what they've seen used for a "Fire Mitigation Plan" for compliance with 691.10, or guidance on what should be in an appropriate Fire Mitigation Plan. I imagine the level of complexity in such plans could be quite regional, given the wide variability of fire risk across the country? I have not run across the need for a Fire Mitigation Plan, but imagine that some of you have. What suggestions do you have? Thank you in advance, Kelly ~~~~~~~~~~~ Kelly Larson 707-223-3209 Box 18094 Reno, NV 89511 Electrical Engineer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ NABCEP Certified PV Installer Specialist™ NABCEP Certified PV Commissioning & Maintenance Specialist™ IREC Certified Master Trainer™/ PV CA Electrical Contractor# 868189 Solar Energy International Instructor SolarKelly.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Oct 2 00:09:38 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 21:09:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy Enclosures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0373fd4a31e4fd74983141c4362e47eb@mail.gmail.com> Jason: Several issues come to mind: 1. I think the question that dictates is the insulation rating of the Envoy and associated wiring as possibly exposed to voltages within the panelboard. This is akin, but not identical, to the scenario described in NEC 300.3(C). Insulation rating matters if any low voltage equipment could in any odd-ball scenario contact an energized part. I don’t imagine the Envoy assembly has an insulation rating. The insulation rating must also apply to any communications, CT or any other purposed conductors associated the Envoy. Indeed, this is the same problem regularly encountered when installing energy monitor equipment, such as E-gauge or similar, in panels. 2. If there are any power line communications interference problems, you want your Enphase branch circuits to land in a separate sub-panel so you can apply filtering if needed. The Envoy must be connected to that sub-panel. Enphase makes some custom combiners for this specific purpose. Any reason you are not using a sub-panel or Enphase combiner to collect Enphase circuits? 3. If the Envoy is in a metal can will the Wi-Fi work? 4. If there is so much room, would you consider mounting an enclosure in the panel inside of which the Envoy could be mounted? A PVC pull box, as one option, would not diminish the Wi-Fi signal any more than it already is and would provide the insulation needed to keep energized parts away from the low voltage equipment that is the Envoy. I have even bent up some galvanized sheet metal partitions to install in breaker panels. If well fabricated and bonded, this has made me feel warm and fuzzy about the safety of same. 5. Based on the above, I would not put a naked Envoy in a breaker panel unless it was my own house. I hope these musings help you decide on a design strategy that you and the AHJ think is safe and legal. Sincerely, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski *Sent:* Thursday, October 1, 2020 2:00 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy Enclosures Can anyone point to any code issues with mounting an Envoy inside of a panelboard? For example, when installing a 3-phase commercial system with a large 400A AC combiner panelboard, there is often PLENTY of room to mount an Envoy inside on a DIN rail. Aside from the manufacturer's instructions not specifically listing this option, I can't see any reason that it would be prohibited. The only downside I can see would be slightly more difficult access to service buttons. I would argue that it is better. The DIN rail would be bonded to the enclosure. The DIN rail that Enphase ships with the Envoy is too short to accept a DIN mounted grounding terminal. When mounting in a non-metallic enclosure I run an EGC to a grounding terminal on a longer DIN rail that I install, not the included one. I'm wondering how people handle the lack of a ground terminal on the Envoy and whether they even run an EGC along with the circuit conductors when mounting an Envoy in a non-metallic enclosure. I have not been able to get a good answer from Enphase on how they expect this to be accomplished. I suppose if the Envoy does not need an equipment ground because it is insulated, and the DIN rail is not exposed once the Envoy is mounted. Maybe it is their opinion that no EGC is required, but I see the DIN rail as needing an EGC. Anyway, that's a lengthy side note. I'm mainly wondering if the Envoy can be mounted in a panelboard. Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Oct 2 10:24:26 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 10:24:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3 verses Mate3S Message-ID: I have a client w/ 8 stack of older VFX3648s, Off Grid. Presently connected to a Mate 3 & older hub 10. The generator run time/shut down time is never the same, sometimes 10+ hours of running while the inverters in “silent” mode. Gen stays running despite full batteries, confirmed by battery voltage & using my refractometer. The only "gen trigger" is battery voltage. I have cleared the history repeatedly & updated the Mate3 FW. Is there any conflict replacing the Mate 3 with the Mate 3S in an older system? I will be also changing out the Hub as well. Thoughts/suggestions > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Oct 2 08:41:16 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 08:41:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy Enclosures In-Reply-To: <0373fd4a31e4fd74983141c4362e47eb@mail.gmail.com> References: <0373fd4a31e4fd74983141c4362e47eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Answers to your questions/comments: 1. The same voltage in the panelboard would also apply to the junction box in which it would be located (as suggested by Enphase). You have to bring a 240V 3-wire circuit to the Envoy in its enclosure. I don't see the difference. 2. Enphase's IQ combiner is only good for 52 IQ7+ micros. These systems are much larger. 3.Yes. Tested. Successful. 4.There isn't quite *that* much extra room, but ample room for the Envoy on a DIN rail. 5. I ma hesitant as well. Absent some good answers from Enphase, it's a tough call because I don't consider their documented solution compliant given that you can't ground the DIN rail they provide. *Jason Szumlanski* Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group (239) 491-8010 (239) 410-4985 www.FloridaSolarDesignGroup.com [image: Facebook] [image: Twitter] [image: Youtube] On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 4:07 AM William Miller wrote: > Jason: > > > > Several issues come to mind: > > > > 1. I think the question that dictates is the insulation rating of the > Envoy and associated wiring as possibly exposed to voltages within the > panelboard. This is akin, but not identical, to the scenario described in > NEC 300.3(C). Insulation rating matters if any low voltage equipment could > in any odd-ball scenario contact an energized part. I don’t imagine the > Envoy assembly has an insulation rating. The insulation rating must also > apply to any communications, CT or any other purposed conductors associated > the Envoy. Indeed, this is the same problem regularly encountered when > installing energy monitor equipment, such as E-gauge or similar, in panels. > > 2. If there are any power line communications interference problems, > you want your Enphase branch circuits to land in a separate sub-panel so > you can apply filtering if needed. The Envoy must be connected to that > sub-panel. Enphase makes some custom combiners for this specific purpose. > Any reason you are not using a sub-panel or Enphase combiner to collect > Enphase circuits? > > 3. If the Envoy is in a metal can will the Wi-Fi work? > > 4. If there is so much room, would you consider mounting an enclosure > in the panel inside of which the Envoy could be mounted? A PVC pull box, > as one option, would not diminish the Wi-Fi signal any more than it already > is and would provide the insulation needed to keep energized parts away > from the low voltage equipment that is the Envoy. I have even bent up some > galvanized sheet metal partitions to install in breaker panels. If well > fabricated and bonded, this has made me feel warm and fuzzy about the > safety of same. > > 5. Based on the above, I would not put a naked Envoy in a breaker panel > unless it was my own house. > > > > I hope these musings help you decide on a design strategy that you and the > AHJ think is safe and legal. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Thursday, October 1, 2020 2:00 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy Enclosures > > > > Can anyone point to any code issues with mounting an Envoy inside of a > panelboard? For example, when installing a 3-phase commercial system with a > large 400A AC combiner panelboard, there is often PLENTY of room to mount > an Envoy inside on a DIN rail. Aside from the manufacturer's instructions > not specifically listing this option, I can't see any reason that it would > be prohibited. The only downside I can see would be slightly more difficult > access to service buttons. > > > > I would argue that it is better. The DIN rail would be bonded to the > enclosure. The DIN rail that Enphase ships with the Envoy is too short to > accept a DIN mounted grounding terminal. When mounting in a non-metallic > enclosure I run an EGC to a grounding terminal on a longer DIN rail that I > install, not the included one. I'm wondering how people handle the lack of > a ground terminal on the Envoy and whether they even run an EGC along with > the circuit conductors when mounting an Envoy in a non-metallic enclosure. > I have not been able to get a good answer from Enphase on how they expect > this to be accomplished. I suppose if the Envoy does not need an equipment > ground because it is insulated, and the DIN rail is not exposed once the > Envoy is mounted. Maybe it is their opinion that no EGC is required, but I > see the DIN rail as needing an EGC. > > > > Anyway, that's a lengthy side note. I'm mainly wondering if the Envoy can > be mounted in a panelboard. > > > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 11:35:34 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 09:35:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Quietest off-grid inverter HAM radio Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I have a HAM radio enthusiast that needs to replace their off-grid inverter. He would like the inverter that puts off the least interference. I don't know a whole lot about evaluating an inverter for this, but I am reaching out for recommendations. Needing ~8kVa at 48V. Thanks! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Fri Oct 2 11:51:24 2020 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 11:51:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Quietest off-grid inverter HAM radio In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Oct 2 11:57:11 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2020 08:57:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Quietest off-grid inverter HAM radio In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7a9df187b0ceb1f23744e0fda5225032@127.0.0.1> My advice is it is more about the installation and the distance from the inverter, and it's devices from the station location, than the make of equipment. There are other things also that I do to fix noise and interference. My wife is an extra class operator and several clients have visited to get ideas. Most any noise issue can be fixed later, unless you are too close to the source. That said I mainly use XW and I would assume Radian is similar. Below is the spec that XW is test for and has been since 2005. " EMC directive FCC and Industry Canada Class B " Below are 2 of the ways that the issue is defined and measured. So-called "RADIATED EMISSIONS" are picked-up WITH A test-antenna and can come from all parts of the product INCLUDING the cables it uses (power and module interconnects). CONDUCTED EMISSIONS are measured directly as voltages or currents on the cables used by the product. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 2 Oct 2020 09:35:34 -0600, Mac Lewis wrote: Hi Wrenches, I have a HAM radio enthusiast that needs to replace their off-grid inverter. He would like the inverter that puts off the least interference. I don't know a whole lot about evaluating an inverter for this, but I am reaching out for recommendations. Needing ~8kVa at 48V. Thanks! -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Fri Oct 2 12:51:51 2020 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 09:51:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Quietest off-grid inverter HAM radio In-Reply-To: <7a9df187b0ceb1f23744e0fda5225032@127.0.0.1> References: <7a9df187b0ceb1f23744e0fda5225032@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <91c87d7d-05a3-f053-5eee-10273510ae31@midnitesolar.com> This is all great advice. Remember that long wires can radiate RF.  PV lines and the array can make a good antenna for  RFI as well as the battery lines. I agree with Dave that both of those inverters are more than likely similar.  I know that the XW has a good filter on the battery line right where it should be, at the exit point. An additional ferrite toroid core used in  common-mode filter hookup (BOTH hot and cold wires run through the center) as close to the unit as possible on AC and DC wires as well as possibly, communications lines exiting the units.  Battery temperature sense also, possibly. As for resources, Palomar link that Roy gave is a good resource. Digikey or Mouser might also be a good place to look for both the parts themselves and possibly information. boB K7IQ On 10/2/2020 8:57 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > My advice is it is more about the installation and the distance from > the inverter, and it's devices from the station location, than the > make of equipment. There are other things also that I do to fix noise > and interference. My wife is an extra class operator and several > clients have visited to get ideas. Most any noise issue can be fixed > later, unless you are too close to the source. > > That said I mainly use XW and I would assume Radian is similar. Below > is the spec that XW is test for and has been since 2005. > > " EMC directive FCC and Industry Canada Class B " Below are 2 of the > ways that the issue is defined and measured. > > So-called "*radiated emissions*" are picked-up *with a* test-antenna > and can come from all parts of the product INCLUDING the cables it > uses (power and module interconnects). *Conducted emissions* are > measured directly as voltages or currents on the cables used by the > product. > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Fri, 2 Oct 2020 09:35:34 -0600, Mac Lewis wrote: > >> Hi Wrenches, >> I have a HAM radio enthusiast that needs to replace their off-grid >> inverter.  He would like the inverter that puts off the least >> interference.  I don't know a whole lot about evaluating an inverter >> for this, but I am reaching out for recommendations.  Needing ~8kVa >> at 48V. >> Thanks! >> >> -- >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Fri Oct 2 15:35:46 2020 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Tuss, Lones) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 19:35:46 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3 verses Mate3S In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Tump You may want to go into the aux setpoints on the inverter being used to signal a gen run condition and check to see how it is programmed. It could be that the aux is being instructed to turn on by the aux setpoints as set in the inverter. If AGS tells it to turn on great but if inside the inverters aux programming some parameters are being met that tell the 12 volt aux to active then seemingly random gen runs can occur. Depending on age and the firmware of the inverter there are 9 or more programmable conditions that can trigger the 12 volt aux. At one point there was a setpoint called Remote which told the inverter some other device other than you is in control of your auxiliary output. If you do not see a Remote setting you might try setting the inverters aux to Vent Fan then set the trigger point (Battery Voltage) to a condition that is impossible to achieve. I have a 48 volt system and I can set the Vent Fan trigger point up to 72VDC this will ensure the AGS is the only way the 12 volt Aux can be activated. I left a message on your phone if you continue to have issues please call me. Take Care Sir From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Tump Sent: Friday, October 2, 2020 7:24 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3 verses Mate3S I have a client w/ 8 stack of older VFX3648s, Off Grid. Presently connected to a Mate 3 & older hub 10. The generator run time/shut down time is never the same, sometimes 10+ hours of running while the inverters in “silent” mode. Gen stays running despite full batteries, confirmed by battery voltage & using my refractometer. The only "gen trigger" is battery voltage. I have cleared the history repeatedly & updated the Mate3 FW. Is there any conflict replacing the Mate 3 with the Mate 3S in an older system? I will be also changing out the Hub as well. Thoughts/suggestions Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" This email and any attachments may contain confidential information that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the environment before printing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Oct 2 15:55:08 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 13:55:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3 verses Mate3S In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <957d480d-f585-853f-cb7a-f3ad7a58cf50@solarray.com> I know its not the same equipment, but we recently had a Magnum autostart doing strange things, and it turns out we had it set up for the wrong generator configuration.  With all the different types of starting configurations on all the different generators, strange things can happen. We're actually considering taking the advice of a recent Wrench post, and declaring that our insurance doesn't cover AGS.  If it starts when it shouldn't and possibly contributes to a fire? very bad.  If it doesn't start when it should and causes refrigerated food to spoil and heating systems to go down? also very bad. I get more call backs for AGS, then any other thing, and its usually a generator issue (which we didn't sell). Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/2/20 1:35 PM, Tuss, Lones wrote: > > Hello Tump > > You may want to go into the aux setpoints on the inverter being used > to signal a gen run condition and check to see > > how it is programmed. It could be that the aux is being instructed to > turn on > > by the aux setpoints as set in the inverter. > > If AGS tells it to turn on great but if inside the inverters aux > programming some parameters are being met that tell the 12 volt aux to > active then seemingly random gen runs can occur. > > Depending on age and the firmware of the inverter there are 9 or more > programmable conditions that can trigger the 12 volt aux. At one point > there was a setpoint called Remote which told the inverter some other > device other than  you is in control of your auxiliary output. > >   If you do not see a Remote setting you might try setting the > inverters aux to Vent Fan then set the trigger point (Battery Voltage) > to a condition that is impossible to achieve. I have a 48 volt system > and I can set the Vent Fan trigger point up to 72VDC this will ensure > the AGS is the only way the 12 volt Aux can be activated. > > I left a message on your phone if you continue to have issues please > call me. > > Take Care Sir > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Tump > *Sent:* Friday, October 2, 2020 7:24 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Mate3 verses Mate3S > > I have a client w/ 8 stack of older VFX3648s, Off Grid. Presently > connected to a Mate 3 & older hub 10.  The generator run time/shut > down time is never the same, sometimes 10+ hours of running while the > inverters in “silent” mode.  Gen stays running despite full batteries, > confirmed by battery voltage & using my refractometer. > > The only "gen trigger" is battery voltage. I have cleared the history > repeatedly & updated the Mate3 FW. > >  Is there any conflict replacing the Mate 3 with the Mate 3S in an > older system? > > I will be also changing out the Hub as well. Thoughts/suggestions > > *Tump at swnl.net > **www.SWNL.net* > > > Solarwinds Northernlights// > > */ Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California/**/ > /**/           207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401 /* > > *//**/Blair "TUMP" May/* > > */       ********  MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > /**/_  NABCEP    "Certified PV Installer"_/**/_ > _/**/ >               ********  MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > /**/_Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"_/* > > > > This email and any attachments may contain confidential information > that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this > email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your > system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those > of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or > its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct > transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally > binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully > signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any > attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss > or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended > recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in > the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the > environment before printing. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Oct 2 15:57:08 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2020 12:57:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar powered clean air during fires! Message-ID: <7867b686694bc7527d359a4cc6777fe6@127.0.0.1> Quite a few of my friends and clients are involved in this disaster, now the largest fire in California history. I told many of them of what they can do to clean the air in their space. I hope this is useful to Wrenches! Home Depot has the US made (metal case) Lasco box fan. If you tape a MRVE 13 furnace/AC filter on it you can get near hospital quality air. MRVE is filtration rating. I have seen these white filters turn black in 2 days in closed houses. If you cool the home with a mini-split or ?, you will pressurize the home and if it is a sealed home, keep the smoke out. The combo of the box fan and cooling will be good for anyone. We used one in the garage to sleep 15 fireman a few years back. Home Depot also has a mobile app you can order and have items brought out to your vehicle in their parking lot. Please check stock first. If you can't get MRVE 13 filters, anything will help above MRVE 8 filtration. A 21" x 21" is actually the perfect size as it will be sucked on by the fan and you do not need to tape it. Going back to the Creek fire this PM with a truck full of gensets and 30 gallons of gasoline. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Fri Oct 2 16:05:10 2020 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 16:05:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3 verses Mate3S In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 13:58:15 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 11:58:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Quietest off-grid inverter HAM radio In-Reply-To: <91c87d7d-05a3-f053-5eee-10273510ae31@midnitesolar.com> References: <91c87d7d-05a3-f053-5eee-10273510ae31@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <38867DFB-735B-4B41-8C45-3E6A85C5FE1D@gmail.com> Hi Bob Is there any inherent advantage or disadvantage to non transformer inverters? Jay > On Oct 2, 2020, at 11:27 AM, "bob at midnitesolar.com" wrote: > >  > > > This is all great advice. > > Remember that long wires can radiate RF. PV lines and the array can make a good antenna for RFI as well as the battery lines. > > I agree with Dave that both of those inverters are more than likely similar. I know that the XW has a good filter on the battery line > > right where it should be, at the exit point. > > An additional ferrite toroid core used in common-mode filter hookup (BOTH hot and cold wires run through the center) as close to > > the unit as possible on AC and DC wires as well as possibly, communications lines exiting the units. Battery temperature sense also, > > possibly. > > As for resources, Palomar link that Roy gave is a good resource. Digikey or Mouser might also be a good place to look for both the > > parts themselves and possibly information. > > boB > K7IQ > > > > On 10/2/2020 8:57 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> My advice is it is more about the installation and the distance from the inverter, and it's devices from the station location, than the make of equipment. There are other things also that I do to fix noise and interference. My wife is an extra class operator and several clients have visited to get ideas. Most any noise issue can be fixed later, unless you are too close to the source. >> >> That said I mainly use XW and I would assume Radian is similar. Below is the spec that XW is test for and has been since 2005. >> >> " EMC directive FCC and Industry Canada Class B " Below are 2 of the ways that the issue is defined and measured. >> >> So-called "radiated emissions" are picked-up with a test-antenna and can come from all parts of the product INCLUDING the cables it uses (power and module interconnects). Conducted emissions are measured directly as voltages or currents on the cables used by the product. >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> On Fri, 2 Oct 2020 09:35:34 -0600, Mac Lewis wrote: >> >>> Hi Wrenches, >>> >>> I have a HAM radio enthusiast that needs to replace their off-grid inverter. He would like the inverter that puts off the least interference. I don't know a whole lot about evaluating an inverter for this, but I am reaching out for recommendations. Needing ~8kVa at 48V. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Oct 3 11:01:27 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2020 08:01:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Quietest off-grid inverter HAM radio In-Reply-To: <38867DFB-735B-4B41-8C45-3E6A85C5FE1D@gmail.com> References: <91c87d7d-05a3-f053-5eee-10273510ae31@midnitesolar.com> <38867DFB-735B-4B41-8C45-3E6A85C5FE1D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20f1a92913b969100736d2d4b6fcb838@127.0.0.1> I would think if the devices meet the tested Class B spec then no advantage. Engineers can design filters for the Class B requirement. The radiated RF may be different between two identical specced inverters of different topology. Even that can be designed in, if there is a requirement and it is tested for. The basic test anyone can do is with a 10 dollar analog AM radio tuned to a weak station. If you can't get 5 feet back from the inverter and hear the station, then you have work to do to suppress the radiated garbage. An XW is about 3 feet if it is installed correctly. My truck inverter which is transformerless, will kill AM for about 50 feet. See what Bob says, my component level engineering is from the 1980's and dated. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 2 Oct 2020 11:58:15 -0600, Jay wrote: Hi Bob Is there any inherent advantage or disadvantage to non transformer inverters? Jay On Oct 2, 2020, at 11:27 AM, "bob at midnitesolar.com" wrote: This is all great advice. Remember that long wires can radiate RF. PV lines and the array can make a good antenna for RFI as well as the battery lines. I agree with Dave that both of those inverters are more than likely similar. I know that the XW has a good filter on the battery line right where it should be, at the exit point. An additional ferrite toroid core used in common-mode filter hookup (BOTH hot and cold wires run through the center) as close to the unit as possible on AC and DC wires as well as possibly, communications lines exiting the units. Battery temperature sense also, possibly. As for resources, Palomar link that Roy gave is a good resource. Digikey or Mouser might also be a good place to look for both the parts themselves and possibly information. boB K7IQ On 10/2/2020 8:57 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: My advice is it is more about the installation and the distance from the inverter, and it's devices from the station location, than the make of equipment. There are other things also that I do to fix noise and interference. My wife is an extra class operator and several clients have visited to get ideas. Most any noise issue can be fixed later, unless you are too close to the source. That said I mainly use XW and I would assume Radian is similar. Below is the spec that XW is test for and has been since 2005. " EMC directive FCC and Industry Canada Class B " Below are 2 of the ways that the issue is defined and measured. So-called "RADIATED EMISSIONS" are picked-up WITH A test-antenna and can come from all parts of the product INCLUDING the cables it uses (power and module interconnects). CONDUCTED EMISSIONS are measured directly as voltages or currents on the cables used by the product. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [4] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 2 Oct 2020 09:35:34 -0600, Mac Lewis [5] wrote: Hi Wrenches, I have a HAM radio enthusiast that needs to replace their off-grid inverter. He would like the inverter that puts off the least interference. I don't know a whole lot about evaluating an inverter for this, but I am reaching out for recommendations. Needing ~8kVa at 48V. Thanks! -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [5] mailto:maclewis1 at gmail.com [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 19:26:57 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2020 17:26:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] old breaker box rating Message-ID: <02315447-CAAF-43F3-84C2-ED2509595A7E@gmail.com> Hi All, I’ve got a old sq D model QOC 40MW225 SERIES L7 I can’t find any literature on it. I’m just trying to confirm that the buss bar is rated for 225 amps? Anybody have some data or know where to find it? So far I’ve struck out. thanks jay From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 19:59:18 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2020 17:59:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase sizing Message-ID: <6BEFF80B-9610-4E2B-95D9-11D6E459E2C2@gmail.com> Hi all For those working with Enphase. How hard are people recommending pushing the DC/AC ratio? Enphase has some pretty convincing data that even a 400 watt module on a 240watt inverter has very small clipping vs annual production Given that why would i recommend to a customer the IQ7A at 360va and quite a bit more expensive vs the 240va IQ7? Location would have something to do of course, tilt, yes. But it seems that unless you’re installing a really large module or their data is wrong, I’m not sure I see the advantage of the larger inverter? I’m hoping there will be some counter views. Thanks Jay Peltz power. From matt at getpimby.com Sat Oct 3 20:43:10 2020 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matthew Sherald) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2020 20:43:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase sizing In-Reply-To: <6BEFF80B-9610-4E2B-95D9-11D6E459E2C2@gmail.com> References: <6BEFF80B-9610-4E2B-95D9-11D6E459E2C2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <811FA439-AC87-42DC-A6F3-567D8A51B5E9@getpimby.com> Jay, I was grappling with this same question just yesterday. My inclination is to avoid overpowering the inverter so as to reduce heat and hopefully prolong the operating life of the electronics. That said, I was hedging toward using the IQ7A for some 335W LGs when I double checked the input specs and realized that the vmp on the LG module falls below the input voltage range. So, for my application I need the IQ7PLUS since it accommodates the module’s vmp. -Matt Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 3, 2020, at 7:59 PM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all > > For those working with Enphase. > How hard are people recommending pushing the DC/AC ratio? > > Enphase has some pretty convincing data that even a 400 watt module on a 240watt inverter has very small clipping vs annual production > > Given that why would i recommend to a customer the IQ7A at 360va and quite a bit more expensive vs the 240va IQ7? > Location would have something to do of course, tilt, yes. > But it seems that unless you’re installing a really large module or their data is wrong, I’m not sure I see the advantage of the larger inverter? > > I’m hoping there will be some counter views. > > Thanks > Jay > Peltz power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From bob at midnitesolar.com Sat Oct 3 22:39:14 2020 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2020 19:39:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Quietest off-grid inverter HAM radio In-Reply-To: <20f1a92913b969100736d2d4b6fcb838@127.0.0.1> References: <91c87d7d-05a3-f053-5eee-10273510ae31@midnitesolar.com> <38867DFB-735B-4B41-8C45-3E6A85C5FE1D@gmail.com> <20f1a92913b969100736d2d4b6fcb838@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: /"//Is there any inherent advantage or disadvantage to non transformer inverters? / // ///Jay"/ Well, non-isolated transformer-less inverters have their own problems that can make common-mode EMI worse actually than isolated. There are special (and patented) design techniques to reduce this and some non-patented ones that work similarly. I think SMA is one with a patent on it.   It has to do with how the output stage of the inverter does its shorting of the full-bridge in-between high and low PWM pulses.  Interesting stuff. But engineering is always a compromise.    Audio electronic engineering was MUCH easier than power electronics IMO. boB On 10/3/2020 8:01 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > I would think if the devices meet the tested Class B spec then no > advantage. Engineers can design filters for the Class B requirement. > The radiated RF may be different between two identical specced > inverters of different topology. Even that can be designed in, if > there is a requirement and it is tested for. > > The basic test anyone can do is with a 10 dollar analog AM radio tuned > to a weak station. If you can't get 5 feet back from the inverter and > hear the station, then you have work to do to suppress the radiated > garbage. An XW is about 3 feet if it is installed correctly. My truck > inverter which is transformerless, will kill AM for about 50 feet. > > See what Bob says, my component level engineering is from the 1980's > and dated. > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Fri, 2 Oct 2020 11:58:15 -0600, Jay wrote: > >> Hi Bob >> Is there any inherent advantage or disadvantage to non transformer >> inverters? >> Jay >> >>> On Oct 2, 2020, at 11:27 AM, "bob at midnitesolar.com" >>> wrote: >>> >>> This is all great advice. >>> >>> Remember that long wires can radiate RF.  PV lines and the array can >>> make a good antenna for  RFI as well as the battery lines. >>> >>> I agree with Dave that both of those inverters are more than likely >>> similar.  I know that the XW has a good filter on the battery line >>> >>> right where it should be, at the exit point. >>> >>> An additional ferrite toroid core used in  common-mode filter hookup >>> (BOTH hot and cold wires run through the center) as close to >>> >>> the unit as possible on AC and DC wires as well as possibly, >>> communications lines exiting the units.  Battery temperature sense also, >>> >>> possibly. >>> >>> As for resources, Palomar link that Roy gave is a good resource.  >>> Digikey or Mouser might also be a good place to look for both the >>> >>> parts themselves and possibly information. >>> >>> boB >>> K7IQ >>> >>> On 10/2/2020 8:57 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>>> >>>> My advice is it is more about the installation and the distance >>>> from the inverter, and it's devices from the station location, than >>>> the make of equipment. There are other things also that I do to fix >>>> noise and interference. My wife is an extra class operator and >>>> several clients have visited to get ideas. Most any noise issue can >>>> be fixed later, unless you are too close to the source. >>>> >>>> That said I mainly use XW and I would assume Radian is similar. >>>> Below is the spec that XW is test for and has been since 2005. >>>> >>>> " EMC directive FCC and Industry Canada Class B " Below are 2 of >>>> the ways that the issue is defined and measured. >>>> >>>> So-called "*radiated emissions*" are picked-up *with >>>> a* test-antenna and can come from all parts of the product >>>> INCLUDING the cables it uses (power and module interconnects). >>>> *Conducted emissions* are measured directly as voltages or currents >>>> on the cables used by the product. >>>> >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> On Fri, 2 Oct 2020 09:35:34 -0600, Mac Lewis >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Wrenches, >>>> I have a HAM radio enthusiast that needs to replace their >>>> off-grid inverter.  He would like the inverter that puts off >>>> the least interference.  I don't know a whole lot about >>>> evaluating an inverter for this, but I am reaching out for >>>> recommendations.  Needing ~8kVa at 48V. >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Mac Lewis >>>> >>>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 15:36:38 2020 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 09:36:38 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] old breaker box rating In-Reply-To: <02315447-CAAF-43F3-84C2-ED2509595A7E@gmail.com> References: <02315447-CAAF-43F3-84C2-ED2509595A7E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, I found this photo of the label for this panel. It looks like the main is 200a and the buss is 225a The last number usually denotes buss bar rating. [image: image.png] James B. Rudolph Independent Energy C-36080 ES #10816 NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2009 #091209-155 C. 808.313.9701 On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 6:22 PM jay wrote: > Hi All, > > I’ve got a old sq D model QOC 40MW225 SERIES L7 > I can’t find any literature on it. > > I’m just trying to confirm that the buss bar is rated for 225 amps? > > Anybody have some data or know where to find it? So far I’ve struck out. > > thanks > > jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 531894 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Oct 5 11:20:48 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 11:20:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GTBB inverters without batteries Message-ID: <3a366072-3436-c047-8e82-b414d18a3b4f@villagepowerdesign.com> Hey Esteemed colleagues. I'm curious which GTBB inverters folks are installing when the customer can't afford batteries right away. How do StorEdges, Skyboxes, PWRCells perform in purely grid-tied mode with no battery and any advantages - disadvantages of various options folks want to point out or considerations for the upgrade path of each? Thanks, Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Oct 5 11:29:14 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 09:29:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GTBB inverters without batteries In-Reply-To: <3a366072-3436-c047-8e82-b414d18a3b4f@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <3a366072-3436-c047-8e82-b414d18a3b4f@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <05d7f7f0-8e16-2546-c9ac-6fba3704614a@solarray.com> All of the GTBB inverters I've ever used needed the battery to even function. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/5/20 9:20 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > Hey Esteemed colleagues. > > I'm curious which GTBB inverters folks are installing when the > customer can't afford batteries right away. > > How do StorEdges, Skyboxes, PWRCells perform in purely grid-tied mode > with no battery and any advantages - disadvantages of various options > folks want to point out or considerations for the upgrade path of each? > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Oct 5 11:48:37 2020 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 11:48:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GTBB inverters without batteries In-Reply-To: <05d7f7f0-8e16-2546-c9ac-6fba3704614a@solarray.com> References: <3a366072-3436-c047-8e82-b414d18a3b4f@villagepowerdesign.com> <05d7f7f0-8e16-2546-c9ac-6fba3704614a@solarray.com> Message-ID: Jeff, I'd suggest Sol-Ark, either the 8 or 12kw unit. Christopher On Mon, Oct 5, 2020 at 11:29 AM Ray wrote: > All of the GTBB inverters I've ever used needed the battery to even > function. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 10/5/20 9:20 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > > Hey Esteemed colleagues. > > I'm curious which GTBB inverters folks are installing when the customer > can't afford batteries right away. > > How do StorEdges, Skyboxes, PWRCells perform in purely grid-tied mode with > no battery and any advantages - disadvantages of various options folks want > to point out or considerations for the upgrade path of each? > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Mon Oct 5 11:51:43 2020 From: rick at SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com (Rick Brown) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 11:51:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GTBB inverters without batteries In-Reply-To: <3a366072-3436-c047-8e82-b414d18a3b4f@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <3a366072-3436-c047-8e82-b414d18a3b4f@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Sol-ark will function w/o batteries. Pretty straightforward installation with no need for a separate charge controller. > On Oct 5, 2020, at 11:20 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > > Hey Esteemed colleagues. > > I'm curious which GTBB inverters folks are installing when the customer can't afford batteries right away. > > How do StorEdges, Skyboxes, PWRCells perform in purely grid-tied mode with no battery and any advantages - disadvantages of various options folks want to point out or considerations for the upgrade path of each? > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: solshine-01-18-17 copy.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10151 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Oct 5 12:08:07 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 12:08:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GTBB inverters without batteries In-Reply-To: References: <3a366072-3436-c047-8e82-b414d18a3b4f@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Hey Wrenches, I should have been more specific in my question. I'm well aware of the advantages of true-off grid inverters and the expansion routes of Sol-Arks or Sunny Islands as well as their price point!  Serious surge, serious battery expansion capability, stacking etc.  However that all comes with a price . . . What I'm needing here is a simple 7.6 KW grid-tie inverter with minimal (15KWH) backup upgrade route.  No big expectations on the backup or surge - just minimal backup at an affordable price. So in that world - I know the PWRcell works well without batteries - but I have less experience with StorEdge or SkyBox.  And the PWRcell is a new beast perhaps since Pika was acquired?  I know Generac has been upgrading . . . Any experience with any of these in grid-tie mode with no batteries? Thanks, Jeff > Rick Brown > October 5, 2020 at 11:51 AM > Sol-ark will function w/o batteries. Pretty straightforward > installation with no need for a separate charge controller. > > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com > > Check, Virginia 24072 > Office: 540.235.3095 > Mobile: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jeff Clearwater > October 5, 2020 at 11:20 AM > Hey Esteemed colleagues. > > I'm curious which GTBB inverters folks are installing when the > customer can't afford batteries right away. > > How do StorEdges, Skyboxes, PWRCells perform in purely grid-tied mode > with no battery and any advantages - disadvantages of various options > folks want to point out or considerations for the upgrade path of each? > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5543 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 11:39:04 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 09:39:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GTBB inverters without batteries In-Reply-To: <05d7f7f0-8e16-2546-c9ac-6fba3704614a@solarray.com> References: <05d7f7f0-8e16-2546-c9ac-6fba3704614a@solarray.com> Message-ID: <117AF3D4-23EB-49C7-B809-DD5A6D4C6ED1@gmail.com> Hi Jeff The Sol Ark can work both ways if I understand correctly Jay > On Oct 5, 2020, at 9:29 AM, Ray wrote: > >  > All of the GTBB inverters I've ever used needed the battery to even function. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 10/5/20 9:20 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >> Hey Esteemed colleagues. >> >> I'm curious which GTBB inverters folks are installing when the customer can't afford batteries right away. >> >> How do StorEdges, Skyboxes, PWRCells perform in purely grid-tied mode with no battery and any advantages - disadvantages of various options folks want to point out or considerations for the upgrade path of each? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jeff >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> cell - 413-559-9763 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 19:12:51 2020 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 19:12:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GTBB inverters without batteries In-Reply-To: <3a366072-3436-c047-8e82-b414d18a3b4f@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <3a366072-3436-c047-8e82-b414d18a3b4f@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: The Generac PWRcell inverter can be stand alone if the customer wants to add a battery later. On Mon, Oct 5, 2020 at 1:47 PM Jeff Clearwater wrote: > Hey Esteemed colleagues. > > I'm curious which GTBB inverters folks are installing when the customer > can't afford batteries right away. > > How do StorEdges, Skyboxes, PWRCells perform in purely grid-tied mode with > no battery and any advantages - disadvantages of various options folks want > to point out or considerations for the upgrade path of each? > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Oct 5 18:43:36 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 18:43:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase sizing In-Reply-To: <6BEFF80B-9610-4E2B-95D9-11D6E459E2C2@gmail.com> References: <6BEFF80B-9610-4E2B-95D9-11D6E459E2C2@gmail.com> Message-ID: It depends on climate, orientation, and other factors. Here it is really hot almost all the time. We rarely experience anything close to the max power rating of a module here. If the orientation isn't ideal, that's another argument for oversizing. Around here we use 385 and 390W 72-cell modules on the 290W IQ7+ and rarely see clipping that would outweigh the advantages and cost-efficiency. Incidentally, early indications from some low temp coefficient 360W modules show that they do quite well compared to 385W modules with more standard coefficients this time of year. I need more data on that to make a real assessment. And modules with low temp coefficients tend to be pricey. I am very comfortable with 1.3x - 1.4x here in Southwest Florida using standard modules. Elsewhere I would expect the ratio to be somewhat lower. I have no justification for the IQ7A here at this time. P.S. My CED Greentech rep shared some Helioscope data using the IQ7 (not plus) and 360W 120-half-cell REC Alphas. There is only a marginal advantage to using the IQ7+ over the IQ7 in that scenario here. I still opt for the IQ7+ since it is marginally better when considering cost and performance and it is more compatible/flexible. Since it's the same max quantity per string, I don't see the point in dropping to the IQ7 for the price difference. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 8:08 PM Jay wrote: > Hi all > > For those working with Enphase. > How hard are people recommending pushing the DC/AC ratio? > > Enphase has some pretty convincing data that even a 400 watt module on a > 240watt inverter has very small clipping vs annual production > > Given that why would i recommend to a customer the IQ7A at 360va and quite > a bit more expensive vs the 240va IQ7? > Location would have something to do of course, tilt, yes. > But it seems that unless you’re installing a really large module or their > data is wrong, I’m not sure I see the advantage of the larger inverter? > > I’m hoping there will be some counter views. > > Thanks > Jay > Peltz power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Oct 6 12:08:23 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2020 12:08:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable Message-ID: Has anybody come up with a good wiring alternative to Raw Q Cable when making long runs along rails from a string to a junction box? We are running into supply problems through distribution. I'm looking for something that might be more readily available. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 10:07:43 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 08:07:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase sizing In-Reply-To: References: <6BEFF80B-9610-4E2B-95D9-11D6E459E2C2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, This is where a modeling program can really help. We use Helioscope to model these (they let you try it for free) and extract the true benefit of the more expensive inverter. Like Jason says, it's really all about the environment, tilt & orientation etc. I have found there is also a psychological component to a customer to see them clipping even if your annual production estimates are right on. I haven't seen evidence that Enphase life is compromised by overpowering them for many hours per day, but we will see over time if that's true. Most of the time for non-ideal roof mounts, we have found that an IQ7 will really lose very little energy annually compared to the IQ7+. Like Jason, we have found no real reason to use the IQ7A. There are other things to consider. For example, we have a utility that puts fixed limits on the size of a solar system based on AC output of the inverter. Oftentimes, dropping to an IQ7 allows a larger DC system and thus more kWh to be produced. Stringing can change as well. Also, Jason according to the spec sheet you can put 16 of the IQ7 as opposed to 13 of the IQ7+ on each string but maybe I misunderstood you. On Mon, Oct 5, 2020 at 5:42 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > It depends on climate, orientation, and other factors. Here it is really > hot almost all the time. We rarely experience anything close to the max > power rating of a module here. If the orientation isn't ideal, that's > another argument for oversizing. Around here we use 385 and 390W 72-cell > modules on the 290W IQ7+ and rarely see clipping that would outweigh the > advantages and cost-efficiency. Incidentally, early indications from some > low temp coefficient 360W modules show that they do quite well compared to > 385W modules with more standard coefficients this time of year. I need more > data on that to make a real assessment. And modules with low temp > coefficients tend to be pricey. > > I am very comfortable with 1.3x - 1.4x here in Southwest Florida using > standard modules. Elsewhere I would expect the ratio to be somewhat lower. > I have no justification for the IQ7A here at this time. > > P.S. My CED Greentech rep shared some Helioscope data using the IQ7 (not > plus) and 360W 120-half-cell REC Alphas. There is only a marginal advantage > to using the IQ7+ over the IQ7 in that scenario here. I still opt for the > IQ7+ since it is marginally better when considering cost and performance > and it is more compatible/flexible. Since it's the same max quantity per > string, I don't see the point in dropping to the IQ7 for the price > difference. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 8:08 PM Jay wrote: > >> Hi all >> >> For those working with Enphase. >> How hard are people recommending pushing the DC/AC ratio? >> >> Enphase has some pretty convincing data that even a 400 watt module on a >> 240watt inverter has very small clipping vs annual production >> >> Given that why would i recommend to a customer the IQ7A at 360va and >> quite a bit more expensive vs the 240va IQ7? >> Location would have something to do of course, tilt, yes. >> But it seems that unless you’re installing a really large module or their >> data is wrong, I’m not sure I see the advantage of the larger inverter? >> >> I’m hoping there will be some counter views. >> >> Thanks >> Jay >> Peltz power. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Wed Oct 7 12:29:19 2020 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don at energysolarnow.com) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 09:29:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commissioning issues with Enphase Ensemble Message-ID: <20201007092919.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.904ec31535.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarwrench at asis.com Wed Oct 7 15:54:22 2020 From: solarwrench at asis.com (Kelly Larson) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 12:54:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New IEC 62446 Message-ID: Hi fellow wrenches, Has anyone seen the new version of IEC 62446?  I am wondering if they added an entry for insulation resistance tests with an array voltage above the ">500V" category. Thank you in advance, Kelly ~~~~~~~~~~~ Kelly Larson 707-223-3209 Box 18094 Reno, NV 89511 Electrical Engineer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ NABCEP Certified PV Installer Specialist™ NABCEP Certified PV Commissioning & Maintenance Specialist™ IREC Certified Master Trainer™/ PV CA Electrical Contractor# 868189 Solar Energy International Instructor SolarKelly.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Oct 7 12:42:28 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 09:42:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51024470d33e1084e13a99a036a4078b@mail.gmail.com> Put your junction boxes closer to the microinverters? Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski *Sent:* Tuesday, October 6, 2020 9:08 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable Has anybody come up with a good wiring alternative to Raw Q Cable when making long runs along rails from a string to a junction box? We are running into supply problems through distribution. I'm looking for something that might be more readily available. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Oct 7 13:57:28 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 13:57:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase sizing In-Reply-To: References: <6BEFF80B-9610-4E2B-95D9-11D6E459E2C2@gmail.com> Message-ID: You're right on the string sizing. My mistake. I was thinking IQ6+ vs IQ7+. Mac makes a great point about the AC output rating and utilities. While the de facto (arbitrary) AC to DC ratio is 0.85x for the interconnection tier determination in Florida, I have one Co-Op that has agreed on a case by case basis to use the actual inverter output rating if it drops them down a tier, saving costs, insurance requirements, and the requirement for a disconnect switch. A 1.3x ratio means a 0.77x factor from the utility's perspective rather than 0.85x. FWIW, we have a lot of 1.3x ratios on M190s monitored out there. I have found no correlation between failure rates based on module watts. Admittedly, there were lots of M190 failures in general, but I don't see the ratio as a determining factor. Jason On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 10:09 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Jay, > > This is where a modeling program can really help. We use Helioscope to > model these (they let you try it for free) and extract the true benefit of > the more expensive inverter. Like Jason says, it's really all about the > environment, tilt & orientation etc. I have found there is also a > psychological component to a customer to see them clipping even if your > annual production estimates are right on. I haven't seen evidence that > Enphase life is compromised by overpowering them for many hours per day, > but we will see over time if that's true. Most of the time for non-ideal > roof mounts, we have found that an IQ7 will really lose very little energy > annually compared to the IQ7+. Like Jason, we have found no real reason to > use the IQ7A. > > There are other things to consider. For example, we have a utility > that puts fixed limits on the size of a solar system based on AC output of > the inverter. Oftentimes, dropping to an IQ7 allows a larger DC system and > thus more kWh to be produced. Stringing can change as well. > > Also, Jason according to the spec sheet you can put 16 of the IQ7 as > opposed to 13 of the IQ7+ on each string but maybe I misunderstood you. > > On Mon, Oct 5, 2020 at 5:42 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> It depends on climate, orientation, and other factors. Here it is really >> hot almost all the time. We rarely experience anything close to the max >> power rating of a module here. If the orientation isn't ideal, that's >> another argument for oversizing. Around here we use 385 and 390W 72-cell >> modules on the 290W IQ7+ and rarely see clipping that would outweigh the >> advantages and cost-efficiency. Incidentally, early indications from some >> low temp coefficient 360W modules show that they do quite well compared to >> 385W modules with more standard coefficients this time of year. I need more >> data on that to make a real assessment. And modules with low temp >> coefficients tend to be pricey. >> >> I am very comfortable with 1.3x - 1.4x here in Southwest Florida using >> standard modules. Elsewhere I would expect the ratio to be somewhat lower. >> I have no justification for the IQ7A here at this time. >> >> P.S. My CED Greentech rep shared some Helioscope data using the IQ7 (not >> plus) and 360W 120-half-cell REC Alphas. There is only a marginal advantage >> to using the IQ7+ over the IQ7 in that scenario here. I still opt for the >> IQ7+ since it is marginally better when considering cost and performance >> and it is more compatible/flexible. Since it's the same max quantity per >> string, I don't see the point in dropping to the IQ7 for the price >> difference. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 8:08 PM Jay wrote: >> >>> Hi all >>> >>> For those working with Enphase. >>> How hard are people recommending pushing the DC/AC ratio? >>> >>> Enphase has some pretty convincing data that even a 400 watt module on a >>> 240watt inverter has very small clipping vs annual production >>> >>> Given that why would i recommend to a customer the IQ7A at 360va and >>> quite a bit more expensive vs the 240va IQ7? >>> Location would have something to do of course, tilt, yes. >>> But it seems that unless you’re installing a really large module or >>> their data is wrong, I’m not sure I see the advantage of the larger >>> inverter? >>> >>> I’m hoping there will be some counter views. >>> >>> Thanks >>> Jay >>> Peltz power. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bryan at pv-cables.com Wed Oct 7 18:37:28 2020 From: Bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 15:37:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable In-Reply-To: <51024470d33e1084e13a99a036a4078b@mail.gmail.com> References: <51024470d33e1084e13a99a036a4078b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <030a01d69cfa$7031fe90$5095fbb0$@pv-cables.com> 12/2 flat tray cable? Bryan Norkunas PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 9:42 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable Put your junction boxes closer to the microinverters? Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2020 9:08 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable Has anybody come up with a good wiring alternative to Raw Q Cable when making long runs along rails from a string to a junction box? We are running into supply problems through distribution. I'm looking for something that might be more readily available. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Oct 8 05:12:30 2020 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 05:12:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GTBB inverters without batteries In-Reply-To: References: <3a366072-3436-c047-8e82-b414d18a3b4f@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Storedge 7.6kw inverter functions fine without batteries. I've had one working for a year like this, waiting for the customer to pull the trigger on LG Chem RESU set. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 29th Anniversary 1991-2020 www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 10/5/2020 12:08:18 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hey Wrenches, I should have been more specific in my question. I'm well aware of the advantages of true-off grid inverters and the expansion routes of Sol-Arks or Sunny Islands as well as their price point!  Serious surge, serious battery expansion capability, stacking etc.  However that all comes with a price . . . What I'm needing here is a simple 7.6 KW grid-tie inverter with minimal (15KWH) backup upgrade route.  No big expectations on the backup or surge - just minimal backup at an affordable price. So in that world - I know the PWRcell works well without batteries - but I have less experience with StorEdge or SkyBox.  And the PWRcell is a new beast perhaps since Pika was acquired?  I know Generac has been upgrading . . . Any experience with any of these in grid-tie mode with no batteries? Thanks, Jeff Rick Brown [mailto:rick at SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com] October 5, 2020 at 11:51 AM Sol-ark will function w/o batteries. Pretty straightforward installation with no need for a separate charge controller. rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com [http://www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com] Check, Virginia 24072 Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer   NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] Jeff Clearwater [mailto:jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com] October 5, 2020 at 11:20 AM Hey Esteemed colleagues. I'm curious which GTBB inverters folks are installing when the customer can't afford batteries right away. How do StorEdges, Skyboxes, PWRCells perform in purely grid-tied mode with no battery and any advantages - disadvantages of various options folks want to point out or considerations for the upgrade path of each? Thanks, Jeff _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5543 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Oct 8 05:50:15 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2020 05:50:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable In-Reply-To: <030a01d69cfa$7031fe90$5095fbb0$@pv-cables.com> References: <51024470d33e1084e13a99a036a4078b@mail.gmail.com> <030a01d69cfa$7031fe90$5095fbb0$@pv-cables.com> Message-ID: I was thinking TC-ER. I would need a quick, easy, low cost way to transition from the Q Cable to the TC-ER. I'm pretty sure the Enphase field wireable connectors are not compatible with TC-ER, but I could be wrong. On Wed, Oct 7, 2020, 6:37 PM Bryan Norkunas wrote: > 12/2 flat tray cable? > > > > *Bryan Norkunas* > > *PV-Cables Inc. * > > *989 Milton Ave Ste 1D* > > *Ferndale CA 95536* > > (707) 923-3000 office > > www.pv-cables.com > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *William Miller > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 7, 2020 9:42 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable > > > > Put your junction boxes closer to the microinverters? > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 6, 2020 9:08 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable > > > > Has anybody come up with a good wiring alternative to Raw Q Cable when > making long runs along rails from a string to a junction box? > > > > We are running into supply problems through distribution. I'm looking for > something that might be more readily available. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Oct 8 11:33:58 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 11:33:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1602171240694.12fabec768571749@redwoodalliance.org> Is there any reason we can't use sunlight resistant UF cable? Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ At 12:08 PM 10/6/2020, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >Has anybody come up with a good wiring >alternative to Raw Q Cable when making long runs >along rails from a string to a junction box? > >We are running into supply problems through >distribution. I'm looking for something that might be more readily available. > >Jason Szumlanski >Florida Solar Design Group >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >There are two list archives for searching. When >one doesn't work, try the other: >https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List rules & etiquette: >http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Oct 8 12:25:20 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 12:25:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Utility Transformer Sizing Message-ID: <1602174321484.102161a10c5099f8@redwoodalliance.org> Hello Wrenches, Does anyone have any insights on utility transformer sizing. We are building a micro grid and connecting two, 200 A services, which are each currently fed by15 kVA transformers. Ohm's Law says that these transformers would be able to supply 62.5 A at 240 V. A 200 A service requires a 4/0 AL feed. The transformer can supply 31% of the service rating. The upgrade is to a 400 A service. The transformer is rated at 37.5 kVA, which would produce 156.25 A at 240 V, and will require 350 kcmil AL cable. This transformer will supply 39% of the rated 400 A. This could only make any sense with fully imbalanced loads at nearly max output, and we are required to balance the phases. The larger loads are supplied by 240 V. Even in a fully imbalanced condition, the main breakers would trip to clear any overloads if the 37.5 kVA transformer were run to a 200 A service. Is there really a good reason for these specifications? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bryan at pv-cables.com Thu Oct 8 14:54:56 2020 From: Bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2020 11:54:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable In-Reply-To: References: <51024470d33e1084e13a99a036a4078b@mail.gmail.com> <030a01d69cfa$7031fe90$5095fbb0$@pv-cables.com> Message-ID: <05fe01d69da4$840cd840$8c2688c0$@pv-cables.com> TC-ER is the way to go, easily found in stock all over the country and much less in cost than the Q-Cable Bryan Norkunas PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2020 2:50 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable I was thinking TC-ER. I would need a quick, easy, low cost way to transition from the Q Cable to the TC-ER. I'm pretty sure the Enphase field wireable connectors are not compatible with TC-ER, but I could be wrong. On Wed, Oct 7, 2020, 6:37 PM Bryan Norkunas wrote: 12/2 flat tray cable? Bryan Norkunas PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 9:42 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable Put your junction boxes closer to the microinverters? Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2020 9:08 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable Has anybody come up with a good wiring alternative to Raw Q Cable when making long runs along rails from a string to a junction box? We are running into supply problems through distribution. I'm looking for something that might be more readily available. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 17:59:39 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2020 17:59:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disconnects for "ungrounded" arrays Message-ID: Hi Guys, I seem to recall hearing at a workshop maybe 18 months ago, that NEC 2020 was changing the string disconnect requirements for ungrounded arrays, changing from the need to break both the positive and negative legs of a string, to just one leg. This might have been specific to strings with optimizers, but now I cannot find my notes on this topic. Am I just wishful thinking here? Thanks, Howie *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 18:11:58 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2020 18:11:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disconnects for "ungrounded" arrays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Howie, NEC 2020 states in 690.13(E): “The PV system disconnecting means shall simultaneously disconnect the PV system conductors that are not solidly grounded from all conductors or other wiring systems”. Sounds to me like there is no change to this requirement. Best, Chris On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 5:59 PM Howie Michaelson wrote: > Hi Guys, > I seem to recall hearing at a workshop maybe 18 months ago, that NEC 2020 > was changing the string disconnect requirements for ungrounded arrays, > changing from the need to break both the positive and negative legs of a > string, to just one leg. This might have been specific to strings with > optimizers, but now I cannot find my notes on this topic. Am I just > wishful thinking here? > Thanks, > Howie > > *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* > > *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* > > *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 18:22:04 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2020 18:22:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disconnects for "ungrounded" arrays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris, This seems to be the feedback I am getting. I guess I daydreamed that change. Thanks, Howie *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 6:12 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote: > Hi Howie, > > NEC 2020 states in 690.13(E): “The PV system disconnecting means shall > simultaneously disconnect the PV system conductors that are not solidly > grounded from all conductors or other wiring systems”. > > Sounds to me like there is no change to this requirement. > > Best, > > Chris > > > > On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 5:59 PM Howie Michaelson < > Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Guys, >> I seem to recall hearing at a workshop maybe 18 months ago, that NEC 2020 >> was changing the string disconnect requirements for ungrounded arrays, >> changing from the need to break both the positive and negative legs of a >> string, to just one leg. This might have been specific to strings with >> optimizers, but now I cannot find my notes on this topic. Am I just >> wishful thinking here? >> Thanks, >> Howie >> >> *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* >> >> *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* >> >> *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Thu Oct 8 19:13:10 2020 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2020 16:13:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disconnects for "ungrounded" arrays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You may be thinking of the change to not requiring overcurrent protection on both conductors. Eric Smiley, MASc Project Manager, North Island E: eric at vecoop.ca T: 1-888-386-0116 ext 702 (toll free) C: 250-703-6004 W: viridianenergy.ca RENEWABLE POWER NOW On Thu, 8 Oct 2020 at 15:22, Howie Michaelson wrote: > Chris, > This seems to be the feedback I am getting. I guess I daydreamed that > change. > Thanks, > Howie > > *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* > > *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* > > *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* > > > On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 6:12 PM Chris Sparadeo > wrote: > >> Hi Howie, >> >> NEC 2020 states in 690.13(E): “The PV system disconnecting means shall >> simultaneously disconnect the PV system conductors that are not solidly >> grounded from all conductors or other wiring systems”. >> >> Sounds to me like there is no change to this requirement. >> >> Best, >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 5:59 PM Howie Michaelson < >> Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Guys, >>> I seem to recall hearing at a workshop maybe 18 months ago, that NEC >>> 2020 was changing the string disconnect requirements for ungrounded arrays, >>> changing from the need to break both the positive and negative legs of a >>> string, to just one leg. This might have been specific to strings with >>> optimizers, but now I cannot find my notes on this topic. Am I just >>> wishful thinking here? >>> Thanks, >>> Howie >>> >>> *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* >>> >>> *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* >>> >>> *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -- >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> >> C_802-369-4458 >> H_802-728-3059 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Oct 10 08:46:55 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2020 08:46:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable In-Reply-To: <05fe01d69da4$840cd840$8c2688c0$@pv-cables.com> References: <51024470d33e1084e13a99a036a4078b@mail.gmail.com> <030a01d69cfa$7031fe90$5095fbb0$@pv-cables.com> <05fe01d69da4$840cd840$8c2688c0$@pv-cables.com> Message-ID: But is this compatible with Enphase field wireables? I know Enphase type DG cable is built on the TC-ER specs, but would it be a listing violation to use TC-ER with the connectors? On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 2:55 PM Bryan Norkunas wrote: > TC-ER is the way to go, easily found in stock all over the country and > much less in cost than the Q-Cable > > > > > > *Bryan Norkunas* > > *PV-Cables Inc. * > > *989 Milton Ave Ste 1D* > > *Ferndale CA 95536* > > (707) 923-3000 office > > www.pv-cables.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Thursday, October 8, 2020 2:50 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable > > > > I was thinking TC-ER. I would need a quick, easy, low cost way to > transition from the Q Cable to the TC-ER. I'm pretty sure the Enphase field > wireable connectors are not compatible with TC-ER, but I could be wrong. > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 7, 2020, 6:37 PM Bryan Norkunas wrote: > > 12/2 flat tray cable? > > > > *Bryan Norkunas* > > *PV-Cables Inc. * > > *989 Milton Ave Ste 1D* > > *Ferndale CA 95536* > > (707) 923-3000 office > > www.pv-cables.com > > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *William Miller > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 7, 2020 9:42 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable > > > > Put your junction boxes closer to the microinverters? > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 6, 2020 9:08 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable > > > > Has anybody come up with a good wiring alternative to Raw Q Cable when > making long runs along rails from a string to a junction box? > > > > We are running into supply problems through distribution. I'm looking for > something that might be more readily available. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 09:43:18 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2020 07:43:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01022129-C491-422C-A134-182E2E937E48@gmail.com> Hi Jason. I just reviewed the assembly document and it does list in the notes wire specifications. It does not say only for emphase wire. If your wire meets those specs I think your good to go. Jay Peltz power. > On Oct 10, 2020, at 7:29 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >  > But is this compatible with Enphase field wireables? > > I know Enphase type DG cable is built on the TC-ER specs, but would it be a listing violation to use TC-ER with the connectors? > > > >> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 2:55 PM Bryan Norkunas wrote: >> TC-ER is the way to go, easily found in stock all over the country and much less in cost than the Q-Cable >> >> >> >> >> >> Bryan Norkunas >> >> PV-Cables Inc. >> >> 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D >> >> Ferndale CA 95536 >> >> (707) 923-3000 office >> >> www.pv-cables.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski >> Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2020 2:50 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable >> >> >> >> I was thinking TC-ER. I would need a quick, easy, low cost way to transition from the Q Cable to the TC-ER. I'm pretty sure the Enphase field wireable connectors are not compatible with TC-ER, but I could be wrong. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 7, 2020, 6:37 PM Bryan Norkunas wrote: >> >> 12/2 flat tray cable? >> >> >> >> Bryan Norkunas >> >> PV-Cables Inc. >> >> 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D >> >> Ferndale CA 95536 >> >> (707) 923-3000 office >> >> www.pv-cables.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller >> Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 9:42 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable >> >> >> >> Put your junction boxes closer to the microinverters? >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski >> Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2020 9:08 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable >> >> >> >> Has anybody come up with a good wiring alternative to Raw Q Cable when making long runs along rails from a string to a junction box? >> >> >> >> We are running into supply problems through distribution. I'm looking for something that might be more readily available. >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emerkel15 at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 21:35:47 2020 From: emerkel15 at gmail.com (Evan M) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2020 21:35:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Label Maker Message-ID: Hey Wrenches, Anyone had any luck with one of those DIY label maker machines you can bring to the site? I'm skeptical of most of them for fear that the quality of the label isn't up to constant sun exposure, rain, weather, etc. Would be a nice to have for the non-standard labels that are different from project to project. Thx, Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sat Oct 10 23:27:35 2020 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2020 20:27:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Label Maker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <97091aae-33c5-6a27-32b8-a2d8e2c48b10@psln.com> We have a drawer full of labels and placards from PV-Labels.  If we need smaller "fine-tuned" labels quickly, occasionally we'll use the Brady BMP21 Plus (3/4" vinyl cartridge) if its not going to see much sun.  The label makers you may be referring to cost $700 to $4K! so we've opted to stock PV-labels.  PV-labels makes a zillion different labels and will custom make and ship same day labels of your request, placards too usually next day. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 10/10/2020 6:35 PM, Evan M wrote: > Hey Wrenches, > Anyone had any luck with one of those DIY label maker machines you can > bring to the site? I'm skeptical of most of them for fear that the > quality of the label isn't up to constant sun exposure, rain, weather, > etc. Would be a nice to have for the non-standard labels that are > different from project to project. > > Thx, > Evan > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Oct 11 15:41:28 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 15:41:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Label Maker In-Reply-To: <97091aae-33c5-6a27-32b8-a2d8e2c48b10@psln.com> References: <97091aae-33c5-6a27-32b8-a2d8e2c48b10@psln.com> Message-ID: We use the Dymo Rhino 5200 for some labels. It's pricey. I wish I had known about the Brady model. I agree about PV-Labels. They ship really fast and the USPS priority gets to us in Florida in 2-3 days typically. Their overnight freight rates are strangely expensive, especially since USPS offers flat rate envelope pricing that would be perfect for flat labels and placards. Regardless, they have always been very reliable for us. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 11:26 PM frenergy wrote: > We have a drawer full of labels and placards from PV-Labels. If we need > smaller "fine-tuned" labels quickly, occasionally we'll use the Brady BMP21 > Plus (3/4" vinyl cartridge) if its not going to see much sun. The label > makers you may be referring to cost $700 to $4K! so we've opted to stock > PV-labels. PV-labels makes a zillion different labels and will custom make > and ship same day labels of your request, placards too usually next day. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > On 10/10/2020 6:35 PM, Evan M wrote: > > Hey Wrenches, > Anyone had any luck with one of those DIY label maker machines you can > bring to the site? I'm skeptical of most of them for fear that the quality > of the label isn't up to constant sun exposure, rain, weather, etc. Would > be a nice to have for the non-standard labels that are different from > project to project. > > Thx, > Evan > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_5282759508976784962_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Sun Oct 11 21:37:07 2020 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 20:37:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GTBB inverters without batteries In-Reply-To: References: <3a366072-3436-c047-8e82-b414d18a3b4f@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Like Kirk, I have installed a few StorEdge inverters successfully without batteries. You do have to change a few of the default programming settings, but they seem to work fine without the LG Chem pack. Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 1:48 PM Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: > Storedge 7.6kw inverter functions fine without batteries. I've had one > working for a year like this, waiting for the customer to pull the trigger > on LG Chem RESU set. > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 29th Anniversary 1991-2020* > > *www.vermont.solar* > > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > > On 10/5/2020 12:08:18 PM, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > Hey Wrenches, > > I should have been more specific in my question. > > I'm well aware of the advantages of true-off grid inverters and the > expansion routes of Sol-Arks or Sunny Islands as well as their price > point! Serious surge, serious battery expansion capability, stacking etc. > However that all comes with a price . . . > > What I'm needing here is a simple 7.6 KW grid-tie inverter with minimal > (15KWH) backup upgrade route. No big expectations on the backup or surge - > just minimal backup at an affordable price. > > So in that world - I know the PWRcell works well without batteries - but I > have less experience with StorEdge or SkyBox. And the PWRcell is a new > beast perhaps since Pika was acquired? I know Generac has been upgrading . > . . > Any experience with any of these in grid-tie mode with no batteries? > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > Rick Brown > October 5, 2020 at 11:51 AM > Sol-ark will function w/o batteries. Pretty straightforward installation > with no need for a separate charge controller. > > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > Office: 540.235.3095 > Mobile: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jeff Clearwater > October 5, 2020 at 11:20 AM > Hey Esteemed colleagues. > > I'm curious which GTBB inverters folks are installing when the customer > can't afford batteries right away. > > How do StorEdges, Skyboxes, PWRCells perform in purely grid-tied mode with > no battery and any advantages - disadvantages of various options folks want > to point out or considerations for the upgrade path of each? > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5543 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 21:46:38 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 18:46:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GTBB inverters without batteries In-Reply-To: <3a366072-3436-c047-8e82-b414d18a3b4f@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <3a366072-3436-c047-8e82-b414d18a3b4f@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Small systems might get solaredge HD WAVE but l prefer Outback SkyBox, neither have surge and if l need surge l will go SMA and AC couple a Outback Radian when the time comes. And No l dont like AC coupling if l can avoid it. Jerry Jerry On Mon, Oct 5, 2020, 10:47 AM Jeff Clearwater wrote: > Hey Esteemed colleagues. > > I'm curious which GTBB inverters folks are installing when the customer > can't afford batteries right away. > > How do StorEdges, Skyboxes, PWRCells perform in purely grid-tied mode with > no battery and any advantages - disadvantages of various options folks want > to point out or considerations for the upgrade path of each? > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 19:05:04 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 19:05:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE Message-ID: Hey FOlks, While Outback had been my goto offgrid system, over the last many years I have gravitated to the Conext and Sol-Ark systems. However, I have many legacy Outback VFX systems out there and some could really use remote communication. Unfortunately, I have stayed far away from Optics RE, as I haven't been thrilled with the reports of issues the system had. However, it seems it is the best option for remote oversight, so I am trying to figure out what is required and what it is capable of. I've read through the initial documentation and as best I can gather, I need a Mate 3s and an internet connection - is that all? I assume having a FlexnetDC in the system is critical as well. I'm also wondering if there is a way to monitor basic production data from a Midnite Classic through the Optics system. And is the Optics RE system fairly solid since I'm not thrilled about putting in systems that need too much fussing or attention to keep operating once they are set up properly. Finally, are there any other comparable monitoring equipment that would work for monitoring such systems? Thanks, Howie *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 19:12:09 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 16:12:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches You will need the mate celular or some hard line comm. Make sure you have all current firmware in all the devices. Once you set up the mate at the home screen push the port button and get the Mac address, next set up your site on opticsRE and your done, keep all on one log in site and easy peasy. Software is a must dont skip it. Jerry NABCEP PV Inspector On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 4:05 PM Howie Michaelson wrote: > Hey FOlks, > While Outback had been my goto offgrid system, over the last many years I > have gravitated to the Conext and Sol-Ark systems. However, I have many > legacy Outback VFX systems out there and some could really use remote > communication. Unfortunately, I have stayed far away from Optics RE, as I > haven't been thrilled with the reports of issues the system had. However, > it seems it is the best option for remote oversight, so I am trying to > figure out what is required and what it is capable of. > I've read through the initial documentation and as best I can gather, I > need a Mate 3s and an internet connection - is that all? I assume having a > FlexnetDC in the system is critical as well. I'm also wondering if there > is a way to monitor basic production data from a Midnite Classic through > the Optics system. And is the Optics RE system fairly solid since I'm not > thrilled about putting in systems that need too much fussing or attention > to keep operating once they are set up properly. Finally, are there any > other comparable monitoring equipment that would work for monitoring such > systems? > Thanks, > Howie > > *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* > > *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* > > *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 19:56:25 2020 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 17:56:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howie; I'm pretty satisfied with the current condition of the OpticsRE world. Most of the past problems have been ironed out, and I've had good email tech support from Outback (!). You'll need a Mate 3S, an Outback Hub, and a Flexnet DC with shunts for each channel you want to measure. If all your equipment is Outback, you only need the Net shunt on the FLexnet DC, otherwise, more shunts. As Jerry mentioned, the Mate 3S will automatically get it's IP address from the router and connect online, you just type its MAC address into the OpticsRE portal and it starts communicating. The critical thing is the internet connection -- it must be rock solid or you'll have no end of woes. Satellite internet (Hughes, Exced) will NOT work with it (nor with Midnite's monitoring system BTW). Wired LAN (Cat 5) has worked the best for me, but do NOT exceed (or even approach, in my experience) the 50 foot limit. If you use a wifi adaptor on the Mate 3S instead of wired, make sure you have an *excellent* wifi signal in the room with the Mate 3S. I've never tried a cell adaptor, as where I work cell service is weak and spotty if it even exists, but I assume a very strong cell connection would be needed. In one situation with no cell service, long wire run for ethernet and bad interior wifi (concrete/stucco/adobe style walls) but good local coax modem internet, I just ran fiber optic cable with a fiber to ethernet adaptor on each end (Mate 3S and cable modem) outdoors in conduit, about $150 in equipment, and that cable could be half mile long but seem like 3 feet to the Mate 3S. As for the Midnite controller, just put one shunt for the Flexnet DC on the output of the Midnite CC, and you'll at least be able to read amperage and work the watt/hour meter. The Flexnet DC gives you a shunt channel for net on the main DC negative, plus 3 more shunt channels to measure whatever you want -- wind turbine, other brand CCs, etc. The configurable email alerts and automated daily data dumps are super handy for systems that are hours drive away. I also learned to set the Mate 3S to automatically reboot every 24 hours....this (oddly) cleared up many problems I had in the past with the Mate 3S dropping offline randomly. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 5:05 PM Howie Michaelson wrote: > Hey FOlks, > While Outback had been my goto offgrid system, over the last many years I > have gravitated to the Conext and Sol-Ark systems. However, I have many > legacy Outback VFX systems out there and some could really use remote > communication. Unfortunately, I have stayed far away from Optics RE, as I > haven't been thrilled with the reports of issues the system had. However, > it seems it is the best option for remote oversight, so I am trying to > figure out what is required and what it is capable of. > I've read through the initial documentation and as best I can gather, I > need a Mate 3s and an internet connection - is that all? I assume having a > FlexnetDC in the system is critical as well. I'm also wondering if there > is a way to monitor basic production data from a Midnite Classic through > the Optics system. And is the Optics RE system fairly solid since I'm not > thrilled about putting in systems that need too much fussing or attention > to keep operating once they are set up properly. Finally, are there any > other comparable monitoring equipment that would work for monitoring such > systems? > Thanks, > Howie > > *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 20:50:55 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 20:50:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks guys. I really appreciate the info. That does a lot to clear up my misgivings with attempting this! My only hesitancy at this point is switching to the Mate3. When it first came out, I put it into an off grid upgrade, but ended up hating it - I found it more complicated and less intuitive than the original Mate (which says a lot considering the lack of intuitive design of that). So it seemed harder to explain to my clients. (Maybe I just hate change). Dan, do you know why satellite won't work for the optics internet connections? Many of my remote sites only have satellite internet access. Thanks again, Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 7:56 PM Dan Fink wrote: > Howie; I'm pretty satisfied with the current condition of the OpticsRE > world. Most of the past problems have been ironed out, and I've had good > email tech support from Outback (!). > > You'll need a Mate 3S, an Outback Hub, and a Flexnet DC with shunts for > each channel you want to measure. If all your equipment is Outback, you > only need the Net shunt on the FLexnet DC, otherwise, more shunts. As Jerry > mentioned, the Mate 3S will automatically get it's IP address from the > router and connect online, you just type its MAC address into the OpticsRE > portal and it starts communicating. > > The critical thing is the internet connection -- it must be rock solid or > you'll have no end of woes. Satellite internet (Hughes, Exced) will NOT > work with it (nor with Midnite's monitoring system BTW). Wired LAN (Cat 5) > has worked the best for me, but do NOT exceed (or even approach, in my > experience) the 50 foot limit. If you use a wifi adaptor on the Mate 3S > instead of wired, make sure you have an *excellent* wifi signal in the room > with the Mate 3S. I've never tried a cell adaptor, as where I work cell > service is weak and spotty if it even exists, but I assume a very strong > cell connection would be needed. In one situation with no cell service, > long wire run for ethernet and bad interior wifi (concrete/stucco/adobe > style walls) but good local coax modem internet, I just ran fiber optic > cable with a fiber to ethernet adaptor on each end (Mate 3S and cable > modem) outdoors in conduit, about $150 in equipment, and that cable could > be half mile long but seem like 3 feet to the Mate 3S. > > As for the Midnite controller, just put one shunt for the Flexnet DC on > the output of the Midnite CC, and you'll at least be able to read amperage > and work the watt/hour meter. The Flexnet DC gives you a shunt channel for > net on the main DC negative, plus 3 more shunt channels to measure whatever > you want -- wind turbine, other brand CCs, etc. > > The configurable email alerts and automated daily data dumps are super > handy for systems that are hours drive away. I also learned to set the Mate > 3S to automatically reboot every 24 hours....this (oddly) cleared up many > problems I had in the past with the Mate 3S dropping offline randomly. > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 5:05 PM Howie Michaelson < > Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hey FOlks, >> While Outback had been my goto offgrid system, over the last many years I >> have gravitated to the Conext and Sol-Ark systems. However, I have many >> legacy Outback VFX systems out there and some could really use remote >> communication. Unfortunately, I have stayed far away from Optics RE, as I >> haven't been thrilled with the reports of issues the system had. However, >> it seems it is the best option for remote oversight, so I am trying to >> figure out what is required and what it is capable of. >> I've read through the initial documentation and as best I can gather, I >> need a Mate 3s and an internet connection - is that all? I assume having a >> FlexnetDC in the system is critical as well. I'm also wondering if there >> is a way to monitor basic production data from a Midnite Classic through >> the Optics system. And is the Optics RE system fairly solid since I'm not >> thrilled about putting in systems that need too much fussing or attention >> to keep operating once they are set up properly. Finally, are there any >> other comparable monitoring equipment that would work for monitoring such >> systems? >> Thanks, >> Howie >> >> *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 21:21:02 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 19:21:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Howie and Wrenches, We have quite a few OpticsRE sites functioning fine on satellite internet so I don't think that there is any defined limitation there. I like to use a Hub 10.3 with systems that you intend to have on Optics. Optics not perfect but its better than other off-grid monitoring and gives decent control to the administrator. Hoping to see something made for mobile devices soon. I find online monitoring to be super useful as a solar integrator and worth the effort to install properly. Hardwire is preferred way to do this, but I have had good success using a TP Link Wireless Nanorouter in client-mode (serving only the internet device hardwired in). The nice thing about client mode is that the Mate won't get booted off of the network by other devices connecting to the network through the TP Link. There may be some anomalies with integrating older equipment but I'm not sure on that. Good Luck On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 6:51 PM Howie Michaelson wrote: > Thanks guys. I really appreciate the info. That does a lot to clear up my > misgivings with attempting this! > > My only hesitancy at this point is switching to the Mate3. When it first > came out, I put it into an off grid upgrade, but ended up hating it - I > found it more complicated and less intuitive than the original Mate (which > says a lot considering the lack of intuitive design of that). So it seemed > harder to explain to my clients. (Maybe I just hate change). > > Dan, do you know why satellite won't work for the optics internet > connections? Many of my remote sites only have satellite internet access. > > Thanks again, > Howie > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 7:56 PM Dan Fink wrote: > >> Howie; I'm pretty satisfied with the current condition of the OpticsRE >> world. Most of the past problems have been ironed out, and I've had good >> email tech support from Outback (!). >> >> You'll need a Mate 3S, an Outback Hub, and a Flexnet DC with shunts for >> each channel you want to measure. If all your equipment is Outback, you >> only need the Net shunt on the FLexnet DC, otherwise, more shunts. As Jerry >> mentioned, the Mate 3S will automatically get it's IP address from the >> router and connect online, you just type its MAC address into the OpticsRE >> portal and it starts communicating. >> >> The critical thing is the internet connection -- it must be rock solid or >> you'll have no end of woes. Satellite internet (Hughes, Exced) will NOT >> work with it (nor with Midnite's monitoring system BTW). Wired LAN (Cat 5) >> has worked the best for me, but do NOT exceed (or even approach, in my >> experience) the 50 foot limit. If you use a wifi adaptor on the Mate 3S >> instead of wired, make sure you have an *excellent* wifi signal in the room >> with the Mate 3S. I've never tried a cell adaptor, as where I work cell >> service is weak and spotty if it even exists, but I assume a very strong >> cell connection would be needed. In one situation with no cell service, >> long wire run for ethernet and bad interior wifi (concrete/stucco/adobe >> style walls) but good local coax modem internet, I just ran fiber optic >> cable with a fiber to ethernet adaptor on each end (Mate 3S and cable >> modem) outdoors in conduit, about $150 in equipment, and that cable could >> be half mile long but seem like 3 feet to the Mate 3S. >> >> As for the Midnite controller, just put one shunt for the Flexnet DC on >> the output of the Midnite CC, and you'll at least be able to read amperage >> and work the watt/hour meter. The Flexnet DC gives you a shunt channel for >> net on the main DC negative, plus 3 more shunt channels to measure whatever >> you want -- wind turbine, other brand CCs, etc. >> >> The configurable email alerts and automated daily data dumps are super >> handy for systems that are hours drive away. I also learned to set the Mate >> 3S to automatically reboot every 24 hours....this (oddly) cleared up many >> problems I had in the past with the Mate 3S dropping offline randomly. >> >> Dan Fink >> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers >> d anbob88 at gmail.com >> 970-672-4342 >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 5:05 PM Howie Michaelson < >> Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hey FOlks, >>> While Outback had been my goto offgrid system, over the last many years >>> I have gravitated to the Conext and Sol-Ark systems. However, I have many >>> legacy Outback VFX systems out there and some could really use remote >>> communication. Unfortunately, I have stayed far away from Optics RE, as I >>> haven't been thrilled with the reports of issues the system had. However, >>> it seems it is the best option for remote oversight, so I am trying to >>> figure out what is required and what it is capable of. >>> I've read through the initial documentation and as best I can gather, I >>> need a Mate 3s and an internet connection - is that all? I assume having a >>> FlexnetDC in the system is critical as well. I'm also wondering if there >>> is a way to monitor basic production data from a Midnite Classic through >>> the Optics system. And is the Optics RE system fairly solid since I'm not >>> thrilled about putting in systems that need too much fussing or attention >>> to keep operating once they are set up properly. Finally, are there any >>> other comparable monitoring equipment that would work for monitoring such >>> systems? >>> Thanks, >>> Howie >>> >>> *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 23:01:35 2020 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 21:01:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac; Interesting to hear that you've had success via satellite internet. Which flavor was it, Hughes, Excede or both? It was 3-4 years ago that I tried and failed with it at 2 different sites (one was my own residence).....there have been a few firmware updates since then, so I might just give it a try again. Satellite, powerline ethernet extenders, and LAN cable over 50 feet are on the official Outback "not recommended" list. Their networking document is located here: http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/optics_conn_app_note.pdf Howie; I've found that a Klein Scout Pro 3 LAN cable tester is a handy and inexpensive tool for diagnosing bad or damaged-while-pulling LAN cables. And a cheap RJ-## LAN cable termination kit so you can make custom length cables for Outback and Midnite systems, instead of finding someplace to hide all the inevitable ugly extra cable length with the factory-supplied LAN cables. As for the Midnite remote monitor system, I've tried and failed on satellite, their application notes say it won't work, but I'd love to try it again if anyone else out there has had luck with Midnite over satellite. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 7:22 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Howie and Wrenches, > > We have quite a few OpticsRE sites functioning fine on satellite > internet so I don't think that there is any defined limitation there. I > like to use a Hub 10.3 with systems that you intend to have on Optics. > Optics not perfect but its better than other off-grid monitoring and gives > decent control to the administrator. Hoping to see something made for > mobile devices soon. > > I find online monitoring to be super useful as a solar integrator and > worth the effort to install properly. Hardwire is preferred way to do > this, but I have had good success using a TP Link Wireless Nanorouter in > client-mode (serving only the internet device hardwired in). The nice > thing about client mode is that the Mate won't get booted off of the > network by other devices connecting to the network through the TP Link. > > There may be some anomalies with integrating older equipment but I'm not > sure on that. > > Good Luck > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Oct 12 21:50:08 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 18:50:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80879c16fa2df9a0dd66bf7cfe4cf620@mail.gmail.com> Howie: I find the OtpicsRE system to be very helpful. If there is any chance to hook up a system, I do it. Here are some features I like, in no particular order: · The dashboard is well thought out. · You can view Event logs and download them as CSV files. · I remote start the generator and EQ on systems I maintain a few hours before I visit the site so I don’t have to wait around for the entire EQ cycle to complete. · If you hover over the bars on the graph you get kWh consumption and production. This is great to school clients when they are profligate with energy usage. · I invite my clients to participate in their own systems and some navigate it well, some not so well. · There are a lot of alerts to choose from, too many in fact. I created a spreadsheet with all of the possible alerts and use it to keep track of which ones I want for each client. A sample copy is attached. I recall there were some growing pains as the system was developed and some things I had to get used to. Funny though I can’t remember most of the early problems. I do remember these: · I have seen systems reconfigure themselves when connected to Optics. Don’t know if Optics caused the problem or it was unrelated. The worst case was several FX inverters configure themselves to all be Masters at the same time. · If you sign up for all alerts you will occasionally see a flurry of messages that configuration changes were made when you know they were not. I turn off this alert. I have used satellite internet with no problems I have extended Wi-Fi with Ubiquiti M2 Loco Nanostations with pretty good reliability. Hope this helps. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Howie Michaelson *Sent:* Monday, October 12, 2020 4:05 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Optics RE Hey FOlks, While Outback had been my goto offgrid system, over the last many years I have gravitated to the Conext and Sol-Ark systems. However, I have many legacy Outback VFX systems out there and some could really use remote communication. Unfortunately, I have stayed far away from Optics RE, as I haven't been thrilled with the reports of issues the system had. However, it seems it is the best option for remote oversight, so I am trying to figure out what is required and what it is capable of. I've read through the initial documentation and as best I can gather, I need a Mate 3s and an internet connection - is that all? I assume having a FlexnetDC in the system is critical as well. I'm also wondering if there is a way to monitor basic production data from a Midnite Classic through the Optics system. And is the Optics RE system fairly solid since I'm not thrilled about putting in systems that need too much fussing or attention to keep operating once they are set up properly. Finally, are there any other comparable monitoring equipment that would work for monitoring such systems? Thanks, Howie *Howie MichaelsonSun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service**802-272-0004* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Optics Alerts and Notifications.xlsx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.spreadsheetml.sheet Size: 16076 bytes Desc: not available URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 23:48:15 2020 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 23:48:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dan & Howie, As Dan said, there was quite a long period getting out the kinks out of Optics but now I'm not having any problems. I'm monitoring 19 systems for my customers and most problems recently have been getting a good internet connection. I finally got one on Huges Net working and all problems were the wifi extender. I put in a new one and it's working fine now. I use Exede (Viasat) at my house and it works fine hard wired to the modem/router. Had problems here with wifi extenders. The Optics is really useful now trying to tweak systems with LiFePO batteries. Those delicate voltage settings sometimes require a few small adjustments to balance between minimizing generator run time and keeping the battery from shutting down. The only problem lately with the Outback/Lithium combination is not being able to set the low battery cutout high enough on the MATE 3 to get the inverter to shut down before the battery does. I've had a few system shutdowns where I have had to go to the site and reboot the battery. Many of my customers are second homes and sometimes rented out so monitoring the system is useful. I have had a few situations where I have had to talk the renters through manually starting a generator or rebooting a battery, saving me a 3 hour round trip service call. John Blittersdorf NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ CV Wind Service (and solar) 200 West Road N Chittenden, VT 05763 On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 11:01 PM Dan Fink wrote: > Mac; Interesting to hear that you've had success via satellite internet. > Which flavor was it, Hughes, Excede or both? It was 3-4 years ago that I > tried and failed with it at 2 different sites (one was my own > residence).....there have been a few firmware updates since then, so I > might just give it a try again. > Satellite, powerline ethernet extenders, and LAN cable over 50 feet are on > the official Outback "not recommended" list. Their networking document is > located here: > > http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/optics_conn_app_note.pdf > > Howie; I've found that a Klein Scout Pro 3 LAN cable tester is a handy and > inexpensive tool for diagnosing bad or damaged-while-pulling LAN cables. > And a cheap RJ-## LAN cable termination kit so you can make custom length > cables for Outback and Midnite systems, instead of finding someplace to > hide all the inevitable ugly extra cable length with the factory-supplied > LAN cables. > > As for the Midnite remote monitor system, I've tried and failed on > satellite, their application notes say it won't work, but I'd love to try > it again if anyone else out there has had luck with Midnite over satellite. > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 7:22 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > >> Hi Howie and Wrenches, >> >> We have quite a few OpticsRE sites functioning fine on satellite >> internet so I don't think that there is any defined limitation there. I >> like to use a Hub 10.3 with systems that you intend to have on Optics. >> Optics not perfect but its better than other off-grid monitoring and gives >> decent control to the administrator. Hoping to see something made for >> mobile devices soon. >> >> I find online monitoring to be super useful as a solar integrator and >> worth the effort to install properly. Hardwire is preferred way to do >> this, but I have had good success using a TP Link Wireless Nanorouter in >> client-mode (serving only the internet device hardwired in). The nice >> thing about client mode is that the Mate won't get booted off of the >> network by other devices connecting to the network through the TP Link. >> >> There may be some anomalies with integrating older equipment but I'm not >> sure on that. >> >> Good Luck >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Oct 13 11:53:13 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 11:53:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable In-Reply-To: <01022129-C491-422C-A134-182E2E937E48@gmail.com> References: <01022129-C491-422C-A134-182E2E937E48@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm learning that manufacturers data sheets state that 2-conductor Type TC cable is not -ER rated. I don't think that is going to work. I'm not sure how Enphase gets around that with their Type DG cable, which they state is built on the TC-ER standard, but it only has two conductors. On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 10:22 AM Jay wrote: > Hi Jason. > > I just reviewed the assembly document and it does list in the notes wire > specifications. It does not say only for emphase wire. > > If your wire meets those specs I think your good to go. > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > On Oct 10, 2020, at 7:29 AM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >  > But is this compatible with Enphase field wireables? > > I know Enphase type DG cable is built on the TC-ER specs, but would it be > a listing violation to use TC-ER with the connectors? > > > > On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 2:55 PM Bryan Norkunas wrote: > >> TC-ER is the way to go, easily found in stock all over the country and >> much less in cost than the Q-Cable >> >> >> >> >> >> *Bryan Norkunas* >> >> *PV-Cables Inc. * >> >> *989 Milton Ave Ste 1D* >> >> *Ferndale CA 95536* >> >> (707) 923-3000 office >> >> www.pv-cables.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >> *Sent:* Thursday, October 8, 2020 2:50 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable >> >> >> >> I was thinking TC-ER. I would need a quick, easy, low cost way to >> transition from the Q Cable to the TC-ER. I'm pretty sure the Enphase field >> wireable connectors are not compatible with TC-ER, but I could be wrong. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 7, 2020, 6:37 PM Bryan Norkunas wrote: >> >> 12/2 flat tray cable? >> >> >> >> *Bryan Norkunas* >> >> *PV-Cables Inc. * >> >> *989 Milton Ave Ste 1D* >> >> *Ferndale CA 95536* >> >> (707) 923-3000 office >> >> www.pv-cables.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *William Miller >> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 7, 2020 9:42 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable >> >> >> >> Put your junction boxes closer to the microinverters? >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 6, 2020 9:08 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable >> >> >> >> Has anybody come up with a good wiring alternative to Raw Q Cable when >> making long runs along rails from a string to a junction box? >> >> >> >> We are running into supply problems through distribution. I'm looking for >> something that might be more readily available. >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Oct 13 15:44:24 2020 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 15:44:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable In-Reply-To: <1602171240694.12fabec768571749@redwoodalliance.org> References: <1602171240694.12fabec768571749@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <1b1a45fe-fd7f-2c9d-e518-d13fd30834a0@entech-engineering.com> You can use UF. It's rated for 60F terminals so you need to use that column in your ampacity calculations. There are some good occasions to use it. Chris On 10/8/2020 11:33 AM, Drake wrote: > Is there any reason we can't use sunlight resistant UF cable? > > Drake Chamberlin > /Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > /http://athens-electric.com/ > > > At 12:08 PM 10/6/2020, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> Has anybody come up with a good wiring alternative to Raw Q Cable >> when making long runs along rails from a string to a junction box? >> >> We are running into supply problems through distribution. I'm looking >> for something that might be more readily available. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Wed Oct 14 12:15:56 2020 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 12:15:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a site with satellite internet. it's router would not recognize the Mate 3s or an eguage monitor. I used a Verizon data sim card / jetpack with a repeater to create a Lan connection and all is fine for 9 months now. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 29th Anniversary 1991-2020 www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 10/12/2020 8:51:19 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: Thanks guys. I really appreciate the info. That does a lot to clear up my misgivings with attempting this!  My only hesitancy at this point is switching to the Mate3. When it first came out, I put it into an off grid upgrade, but ended up hating it - I found it more complicated and less intuitive than the original Mate (which says a lot considering the lack of intuitive design of that). So it seemed harder to explain to my clients. (Maybe I just hate change). Dan, do you know why satellite won't work for the optics internet connections? Many of my remote sites only have satellite internet access. Thanks again, Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 7:56 PM Dan Fink wrote: Howie; I'm pretty satisfied with the current condition of the OpticsRE world. Most of the past problems have been ironed out, and I've had good email tech support from Outback (!).  You'll need a Mate 3S, an Outback Hub, and a Flexnet DC with shunts for each channel you want to measure. If all your equipment is Outback, you only need the Net shunt on the FLexnet DC, otherwise, more shunts. As Jerry mentioned, the Mate 3S will automatically get it's IP address from the router and connect online, you just type its MAC address into the OpticsRE portal and it starts communicating. The critical thing is the internet connection -- it must be rock solid or you'll have no end of woes. Satellite internet (Hughes, Exced) will NOT work with it (nor with Midnite's monitoring system BTW). Wired LAN (Cat 5) has worked the best for me, but do NOT exceed (or even approach, in my experience) the 50 foot limit. If you use a wifi adaptor on the Mate 3S instead of wired, make sure you have an *excellent* wifi signal in the room with the Mate 3S.  I've never tried a cell adaptor, as where I work cell service is weak and spotty if it even exists, but I assume a very strong cell connection would be needed. In one situation with no cell service, long wire run for ethernet and bad interior wifi (concrete/stucco/adobe style walls) but good  local coax modem internet, I just ran fiber optic cable with a fiber to ethernet adaptor on each end (Mate 3S and cable modem) outdoors in conduit, about $150 in equipment, and that cable could be half mile long but seem like 3 feet to the Mate 3S.  As for the Midnite controller, just put one shunt for the Flexnet DC on the output of the Midnite CC, and you'll at least be able to read amperage and work the watt/hour meter. The Flexnet DC gives you a shunt channel for net on the main DC negative, plus 3 more shunt channels to measure whatever you want -- wind turbine, other brand CCs, etc. The configurable email alerts and automated daily data dumps are super handy for systems that are hours drive away. I also learned to set the Mate 3S to automatically reboot every 24 hours....this (oddly) cleared up many problems I had in the past with the Mate 3S dropping offline randomly.  Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for:  ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d [mailto:dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com]anbob88 at gmail.com [mailto:anbob88 at gmail.com] 970-672-4342   On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 5:05 PM Howie Michaelson wrote: Hey FOlks, While Outback had been my goto offgrid system, over the last many years I have gravitated to the Conext and Sol-Ark systems.  However, I have many legacy Outback VFX systems out there and some could really use remote communication.  Unfortunately, I have stayed far away from Optics RE, as I haven't been thrilled with the reports of issues the system had. However, it seems it is the best option for remote oversight, so I am trying to figure out what is required and what it is capable of. I've read through the initial documentation and as best I can gather, I need a Mate 3s and an internet connection - is that all?  I assume having a FlexnetDC in the system is critical as well.  I'm also wondering if there is a way to monitor basic production data from a Midnite Classic through the Optics system. And is the Optics RE system fairly solid since I'm not thrilled about putting in systems that need too much fussing or attention to keep operating once they are set up properly. Finally, are there any other comparable monitoring equipment that would work for monitoring such systems? Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 13:06:14 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 13:06:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kirk, was that Hughes net that wouldn't recognize the mate? Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 12:23 PM Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: > I have a site with satellite internet. it's router would not recognize the > Mate 3s or an eguage monitor. I used a Verizon data sim card / jetpack with > a repeater to create a Lan connection and all is fine for 9 months now. > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 29th Anniversary 1991-2020* > > *www.vermont.solar* > > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > > On 10/12/2020 8:51:19 PM, Howie Michaelson > wrote: > Thanks guys. I really appreciate the info. That does a lot to clear up my > misgivings with attempting this! > > My only hesitancy at this point is switching to the Mate3. When it first > came out, I put it into an off grid upgrade, but ended up hating it - I > found it more complicated and less intuitive than the original Mate (which > says a lot considering the lack of intuitive design of that). So it seemed > harder to explain to my clients. (Maybe I just hate change). > > Dan, do you know why satellite won't work for the optics internet > connections? Many of my remote sites only have satellite internet access. > > Thanks again, > Howie > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 7:56 PM Dan Fink wrote: > >> Howie; I'm pretty satisfied with the current condition of the OpticsRE >> world. Most of the past problems have been ironed out, and I've had good >> email tech support from Outback (!). >> >> You'll need a Mate 3S, an Outback Hub, and a Flexnet DC with shunts for >> each channel you want to measure. If all your equipment is Outback, you >> only need the Net shunt on the FLexnet DC, otherwise, more shunts. As Jerry >> mentioned, the Mate 3S will automatically get it's IP address from the >> router and connect online, you just type its MAC address into the OpticsRE >> portal and it starts communicating. >> >> The critical thing is the internet connection -- it must be rock solid or >> you'll have no end of woes. Satellite internet (Hughes, Exced) will NOT >> work with it (nor with Midnite's monitoring system BTW). Wired LAN (Cat 5) >> has worked the best for me, but do NOT exceed (or even approach, in my >> experience) the 50 foot limit. If you use a wifi adaptor on the Mate 3S >> instead of wired, make sure you have an *excellent* wifi signal in the room >> with the Mate 3S. I've never tried a cell adaptor, as where I work cell >> service is weak and spotty if it even exists, but I assume a very strong >> cell connection would be needed. In one situation with no cell service, >> long wire run for ethernet and bad interior wifi (concrete/stucco/adobe >> style walls) but good local coax modem internet, I just ran fiber optic >> cable with a fiber to ethernet adaptor on each end (Mate 3S and cable >> modem) outdoors in conduit, about $150 in equipment, and that cable could >> be half mile long but seem like 3 feet to the Mate 3S. >> >> As for the Midnite controller, just put one shunt for the Flexnet DC on >> the output of the Midnite CC, and you'll at least be able to read amperage >> and work the watt/hour meter. The Flexnet DC gives you a shunt channel for >> net on the main DC negative, plus 3 more shunt channels to measure whatever >> you want -- wind turbine, other brand CCs, etc. >> >> The configurable email alerts and automated daily data dumps are super >> handy for systems that are hours drive away. I also learned to set the Mate >> 3S to automatically reboot every 24 hours....this (oddly) cleared up many >> problems I had in the past with the Mate 3S dropping offline randomly. >> >> Dan Fink >> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers >> d anbob88 at gmail.com >> 970-672-4342 >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 5:05 PM Howie Michaelson < >> Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hey FOlks, >>> While Outback had been my goto offgrid system, over the last many years >>> I have gravitated to the Conext and Sol-Ark systems. However, I have many >>> legacy Outback VFX systems out there and some could really use remote >>> communication. Unfortunately, I have stayed far away from Optics RE, as I >>> haven't been thrilled with the reports of issues the system had. However, >>> it seems it is the best option for remote oversight, so I am trying to >>> figure out what is required and what it is capable of. >>> I've read through the initial documentation and as best I can gather, I >>> need a Mate 3s and an internet connection - is that all? I assume having a >>> FlexnetDC in the system is critical as well. I'm also wondering if there >>> is a way to monitor basic production data from a Midnite Classic through >>> the Optics system. And is the Optics RE system fairly solid since I'm not >>> thrilled about putting in systems that need too much fussing or attention >>> to keep operating once they are set up properly. Finally, are there any >>> other comparable monitoring equipment that would work for monitoring such >>> systems? >>> Thanks, >>> Howie >>> >>> *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood > Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change > listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List > rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or > update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From louis at solarcowboyz.com Wed Oct 14 15:21:32 2020 From: louis at solarcowboyz.com (louis at solarcowboyz.com) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 12:21:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Positive grounded arrays Message-ID: <20201014122132.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.b29acadab2.wbe@email05.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Wed Oct 14 16:31:47 2020 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 10:31:47 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Positive grounded arrays In-Reply-To: <20201014122132.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.b29acadab2.wbe@email05.godaddy.com> References: <20201014122132.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.b29acadab2.wbe@email05.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Argh...this is an ongoing, as in years' long, pain point with my long time SunPower friends. They've been looking into a device that would go between the old style non-Maxeon cell module strings and TL inverter that would effectively dissipate the polarization charge every night. And we've been waiting for several years for them to release this product. As to when it will actually be available for distribution, I don't know. >From my experience, this surface polarization phenomenon (when the strings are not + grounded) can mean an output hit of 25 or more percent. On the bright side, even though such an array may not have had a + ground for years, we've seen the polarization dissipate after getting grounded and the output go back to expected levels. marco On Wednesday, October 14, 2020, wrote: > Looking for feedback on the following, any help would be appreciated; > > Positive grounded arrays(Sunpower systems) what is being used as an > Inverter replacement? > Hard to get SMA's SBxxxxUS older style units that have the built-in > POS/NEG grounding capability... > As far as I know the newer line of Inverters from SMA will not work ; they > are TL's and are not compatible. > > It would be tempting to "Un-Ground" the array and use the newer line of TL > Inverters from SMA. > The Discon would need to do both POS/NEG lines;OK > I know of this being done with Arrays that are NEG grounded. > > How much of a Power loss from the array would be expected due to removing > the POS ground on Sunpower panels and run them Un-grounded ? > Guessing say 15 to 20% ? > > This may be a solution that the customer would go along with short of > replacing the entire system. > > > > > Best Regards > Louis Segarra > Tech Department/Field Operations > Solar Cowboyz > (530) 273-4895 > (916) 212-0282 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Oct 14 17:18:57 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 14:18:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Positive grounded arrays In-Reply-To: References: <20201014122132.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.b29acadab2.wbe@email05.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <04946a0cb46e6e0eb6258cb77af3bd2d@127.0.0.1> I got around this for a client by adding an XW and the high voltage MPPT. It has a positive ground option and it worked well. Scheider now has a 100a Mppt version BTW. Pretty easy way to solve it and add batteries. Use a Radian also if the FM100 can be negative grounded. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wednesday, October 14, 2020, wrote: Looking for feedback on the following, any help would be appreciated; Positive grounded arrays(Sunpower systems) what is being used as an Inverter replacement? Hard to get SMA's SBxxxxUS older style units that have the built-in POS/NEG grounding capability... As far as I know the newer line of Inverters from SMA will not work ; they are TL's and are not compatible. It would be tempting to "Un-Ground" the array and use the newer line of TL Inverters from SMA. The Discon would need to do both POS/NEG lines;OK I know of this being done with Arrays that are NEG grounded. How much of a Power loss from the array would be expected due to removing the POS ground on Sunpower panels and run them Un-grounded ? Guessing say 15 to 20% ? This may be a solution that the customer would go along with short of replacing the entire system. Best Regards Louis Segarra Tech Department/Field Operations Solar Cowboyz (530) 273-4895 (916) 212-0282 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:louis at solarcowboyz.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Oct 14 17:19:07 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 14:19:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Positive grounded arrays In-Reply-To: <20201014122132.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.b29acadab2.wbe@email05.godaddy.com> References: <20201014122132.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.b29acadab2.wbe@email05.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Hi Louis, As Marco mentioned, this is a pain point for long term SunPower "friends." First, we are still able to source isolated (transformer based) inverters through SunPower. I think the last few we got were SMA Sunny Boys. That seems like your best bet. I believe Enphase has a device that can ground the positive DC conductor with their microinverters, but the last I checked they weren't selling them. I was told by a SunPower engineer a long time ago that when these old modules are run ungrounded that they tend to produce about 50% less than they should. The condition takes weeks or months to get worse and eventually plateaus. If you then ground the array properly (to the positive DC conductor) it will take a few weeks to start running well again, just as Marco mentioned. August On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 1:05 PM wrote: > Looking for feedback on the following, any help would be appreciated; > > Positive grounded arrays(Sunpower systems) what is being used as an > Inverter replacement? > Hard to get SMA's SBxxxxUS older style units that have the built-in > POS/NEG grounding capability... > As far as I know the newer line of Inverters from SMA will not work ; they > are TL's and are not compatible. > > It would be tempting to "Un-Ground" the array and use the newer line of TL > Inverters from SMA. > The Discon would need to do both POS/NEG lines;OK > I know of this being done with Arrays that are NEG grounded. > > How much of a Power loss from the array would be expected due to removing > the POS ground on Sunpower panels and run them Un-grounded ? > Guessing say 15 to 20% ? > > This may be a solution that the customer would go along with short of > replacing the entire system. > > > > > Best Regards > Louis Segarra > Tech Department/Field Operations > Solar Cowboyz > (530) 273-4895 > (916) 212-0282 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Oct 14 18:10:22 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 16:10:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Positive grounded arrays In-Reply-To: <04946a0cb46e6e0eb6258cb77af3bd2d@127.0.0.1> References: <20201014122132.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.b29acadab2.wbe@email05.godaddy.com> <04946a0cb46e6e0eb6258cb77af3bd2d@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <7f320bad-37a7-8ec4-f674-9354f422dc72@solarray.com> The Midnite Solar Classic Controller used to be able to be positive grounded.  The Classic 250 can do five 60 cell modules in series. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/14/20 3:18 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > I got around this for a client by adding an XW and the high voltage > MPPT.   It has a positive ground option and it worked well. Scheider > now has a 100a Mppt version BTW. Pretty easy way to solve it and add > batteries. Use a Radian also if the FM100 can be negative grounded. > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On Wednesday, October 14, 2020, > > wrote: >> >> Looking for feedback on the following, any help would be appreciated; >> Positive grounded arrays(Sunpower systems) what is being used as >> an Inverter replacement? >> Hard to get SMA's SBxxxxUS older style units that have the >> built-in POS/NEG grounding capability... >> As far as I know the newer line of Inverters from SMA will not >> work ; they are TL's and are not compatible. >> It would be tempting to "Un-Ground" the array and use the newer >> line of TL Inverters from SMA. >> The Discon would need to do both POS/NEG lines;OK >> I know of this being done with Arrays that are NEG grounded. >> How much of a Power loss from the array would be expected due to >> removing the POS ground on Sunpower panels and run them Un-grounded ? >> Guessing say 15 to 20% ? >> This may be a solution that the customer would go along with >> short of replacing the entire system. >> Best Regards >> Louis Segarra >> Tech Department/Field Operations >> Solar Cowboyz >> (530) 273-4895 >> (916) 212-0282 >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Wed Oct 14 19:06:29 2020 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 17:06:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Positive grounded arrays In-Reply-To: <7f320bad-37a7-8ec4-f674-9354f422dc72@solarray.com> References: <7f320bad-37a7-8ec4-f674-9354f422dc72@solarray.com> Message-ID: <8F76BE62-AAA1-4AF5-9E8A-6F5D84E373CC@solarenergy.org> Fronius Galvo can be positively grounded. But the instructions literally say to take the factory-installed fuse (neg to ground) and install it between positive and ground “outside the inverter.” Brian > On Oct 14, 2020, at 4:10 PM, Ray wrote: > >  > The Midnite Solar Classic Controller used to be able to be positive grounded. The Classic 250 can do five 60 cell modules in series. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 10/14/20 3:18 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> I got around this for a client by adding an XW and the high voltage MPPT. It has a positive ground option and it worked well. Scheider now has a 100a Mppt version BTW. Pretty easy way to solve it and add batteries. Use a Radian also if the FM100 can be negative grounded. >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, October 14, 2020, wrote: >>>> Looking for feedback on the following, any help would be appreciated; >>>> >>>> Positive grounded arrays(Sunpower systems) what is being used as an Inverter replacement? >>>> Hard to get SMA's SBxxxxUS older style units that have the built-in POS/NEG grounding capability... >>>> As far as I know the newer line of Inverters from SMA will not work ; they are TL's and are not compatible. >>>> >>>> It would be tempting to "Un-Ground" the array and use the newer line of TL Inverters from SMA. >>>> The Discon would need to do both POS/NEG lines;OK >>>> I know of this being done with Arrays that are NEG grounded. >>>> >>>> How much of a Power loss from the array would be expected due to removing the POS ground on Sunpower panels and run them Un-grounded ? >>>> Guessing say 15 to 20% ? >>>> >>>> This may be a solution that the customer would go along with short of replacing the entire system. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best Regards >>>> Louis Segarra >>>> Tech Department/Field Operations >>>> Solar Cowboyz >>>> (530) 273-4895 >>>> (916) 212-0282 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Oct 14 18:00:42 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 18:00:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable In-Reply-To: <1b1a45fe-fd7f-2c9d-e518-d13fd30834a0@entech-engineering.com> References: <1602171240694.12fabec768571749@redwoodalliance.org> <1b1a45fe-fd7f-2c9d-e518-d13fd30834a0@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Yes, for sure UF would work. But I was wishfully thinking there was an alternative cable for using Enphase's field wirable connectors. Type TC 12/2 cable is pretty identical to Enphase's DG cable from what I can tell, but it does not carry the -ER designation. On the other hand, I don't really see the -ER being the deciding factor here as to whether it can be used in an exposed fashion. The -ER designation comes into play in 336.10(7) for industrial establishments only. Section 336.10(4) allows type TC (without the -ER designation) to be supported by a messenger cable, but solar rails don't seem to fit that definition. The only other thing that I can think of is that solar rails fit the definition of a Cable Tray (Article 392). If that is true, 336.12(2) seems to indicate Type TC would suffice as long as 336.12(3) is met (identified as sunlight resistant). I find it strange that the Enphase 12/2 DG cable is based on the construction standards of Type TC-EC, but there is no such thing as 12/2 TC-ER cable that I can find. The -ER designation requires a third conductor for all manufacturers I found. Per an Enphase technical brief: Q Cable is a UL3003 DG (Distributed Generation) listed cabling system. The DG cable standard UL3003 is based upon the construction specifications (wet rated) of TC-ER cable, which may be installed in raceway as per NEC 336.10(3). The Q Cable and raw Q Cable are manufactured with DG cable to the specifications in the Q Cable Specifications Table on page 4. I did find this interesting article on the subject: https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2017/05/follow-rules-installing-solar-ac-cabling/ So I'm guessing that Type TC would be acceptable for bridging gaps between junction boxes, but would not be suitable for the Enphase field wirables because the connectors are intended for use with Type DG cable listed to the UL 3003 standard. Type TC does not fit the bill. Jason On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 3:44 PM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > You can use UF. It's rated for 60F terminals so you need to use that > column in your ampacity calculations. There are some good occasions to use > it. Chris > On 10/8/2020 11:33 AM, Drake wrote: > > Is there any reason we can't use sunlight resistant UF cable? > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/ > > > > At 12:08 PM 10/6/2020, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Has anybody come up with a good wiring alternative to Raw Q Cable when > making long runs along rails from a string to a junction box? > > We are running into supply problems through distribution. I'm looking for > something that might be more readily available. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Thu Oct 15 09:52:49 2020 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 13:52:49 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DPW rack adjustment Message-ID: Does anyone have any trick to adjusting the tilt angle of the TPM4 pole mounts? These are the racks with the aluminum beam (strongback) with slots for the bolts. We have tried anti seize, and cutting the heads of the bolts square in attempts to help with adjustment. Help! Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 10:08:56 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 08:08:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DPW rack adjustment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78CE46B4-E88F-42EC-8020-E0BAF18FF1E1@gmail.com> Hi Jeremy, I’ve not run into that issue but you could put more bolts at different locations for different tilts. A template would keep them the correct spacing. Wouldn’t slide but would be adjustable. I don’t know if you’ve tried heat but it’s pretty amazing at getting things loosened up. The other way is cold, using a spray can for computers for example. Or using the combo. Damn it’s just a stupid rack, should be easy. Jay Peltz power. > On Oct 15, 2020, at 7:52 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > >  Does anyone have any trick to adjusting the tilt angle of the TPM4 pole mounts? These are the racks with the aluminum beam (strongback) with slots for the bolts. > We have tried anti seize, and cutting the heads of the bolts square in attempts to help with adjustment. > Help! > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Thu Oct 15 13:26:15 2020 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don at energysolarnow.com) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 10:26:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commissioning issues with Enphase Ensemble Message-ID: <20201015102615.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.68edd75f43.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 14:12:04 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 11:12:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commissioning issues with Enphase Ensemble In-Reply-To: <20201015102615.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.68edd75f43.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> References: <20201015102615.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.68edd75f43.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Wrenches I don't think enphase has any real surge capability at all, also there is a inverter response time, (how fast the inverter ramps in up in ms) and you need to confirm it will start both during the day and at night to see if it can drive through. Jerry On Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 11:02 AM wrote: > With help and a site visit from Adam of Enphase tech support this Ensemble > system was successfully brought through commissioning. We had to do a > battery black start after it discharged over the weekend. > However, functional testing brought up another issue-- in off grid mode > the well pump consistently kicks off the two Encharge3 batteries, > presumably from inrush current. This is a 3/4 Franklin pump that apparently > lacks any capacitor soft start. It is on a 20 amp 2-pole breaker. We > measured the operating current at something like 6 amps; the inrush current > is likely a multiple of that. The soft starters from Hyper Engineering > recommended by Enphase are made for HVAC units with more accessible wires > for compressor and fan. This well pump has only two wires. > Can anyone recommend a soft starter or variable frequency drive (VFD) > starter for a two-wire well pump? > > Thanks > Don Barch > Energy Solar > > -------- Original Message -------- > > Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 18:12:39 -0700 > From: Louis Woofenden > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Commissioning issues with Enphase Ensemble > Message-ID: <12123009-ea4a-ffdc-f927-8e0ac389131a at woofenden.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" > > > Hi Don and Wrenches, > > I have commissioned four new Ensemble systems over the past two weeks. > All storage additions to existing PV systems with Enphase > microinverters. Although there are parts of the process that are a bit > clunky, we have not had the problems you mention. I followed the > instructions in the tech brief "Ensemble Commissioning via Installer > Toolkit 3.0," linked at > https://enphase.com/en-us/certification-support-program-guidelines > (direct link to the PDF is > > https://enphase.com/sites/default/files/Tech%20Brief%20-%20Ensemble%20Commissioning%20via%20Installer%20Toolkit%203.0.pdf > ). > > My experience is that each of the four Enpower microgrid interconnection > devices we've installed started up in passthrough mode, so if input > breakers are on in the MID, backup loads have had power before > commissioning is completed, and power has remained on for those backup > loads even after we turned off the PV and ESS disconnects to wait for > utility PTO after doing commissioning and functional testing. > > It did take us some time to do the Envoy software update before > commissioning, and the system does require a second trip for functional > testing after the Encharge battery software updates have been done (up > to 12 hours). I haven't stuck on site for the Encharge/Enpower software > updates, but it looks like they are taking 4-6 hours for us, based on > percentage done by the time I've left the site (system sizes from 10.08 > kWh to 20.16 kWh). Yeah, it's a second trip. I've used the trip to meet > with electrical inspectors for these first systems. > > One "trick" I've used on the Envoy software update is that you once you > scan in the serial numbers of each Enpower & Encharge with the installer > toolkit and plug in the cell modem and wireless communications kit, the > installer toolkit will allow the Envoy software update to work, and you > can get it taken care of early in the day, while still hanging boxes, > running conduit, etc. > > I would agree that there are definitely parts of the new installer > toolkit that aren't intuitive. I missed the "edit" button on the devices > page for a bit (which is not mentioned in the tech brief), and couldn't > figure out how to increase the device count, for example. I also had to > try the Envoy update twice for some of these systems, as it threw an > error code the first time around, so for some of the systems it took > closer to 45-50 minutes to get the Envoy software update done. > > Hope the next one goes more smoothly for you! New products, new > challenges, I guess. > > Best, > > Louis Woofenden > > don at energysolarnow.com wrote on 9/30/20 2:59 PM: > > Wrenches- > > I'm having a lot of difficulty commissioning my first Enphase Ensemble > > installation. This is on a pre-existing microinverter installation. > > Have been on the phone with tech support several times; each time they > > forward a Tech Brief about commissioning that has different and > > slightly conflicting instructions. It seems the order of turning on > > each box is critical. Because of already-obsolete software that they > > ship with, the software must be updated before activating the Envoy, > > Enpower, and Encharge or they will not work. > > And for some reason the Envoy must have both Wifi and cell connection > > before even starting commissioning, but the slower cell connection is > > used for software download so it takes up to 12 hours. > > This commissioning must be done on-site using their latest version of > > Installer Toolkit on a smart phone. Sure, there are buttons in > > Enlighten's Activation page to add an Enpower and Encharge, but these > > do not work "yet". > > Enphase tech support says they are working on making this a single-day > > process rather than the current multi-day commissioning. This does not > > even count the actual hardware installation time. > > > > I would advise anyone against moving any loads to a new subpanel > > before the entire system is commissioned and operating. > > As of now I have an Enpower that mistakenly thinks it is off-grid when > > the grid is present, so it has told the Envoy to shut down the PV > > microinverters and batteries. These are relay controlled, therefore it > > is not possible to have them connected without software control.? It > > has already committed the major crime of shutting down the backed-up > > loads while the grid is still present. Enphase is working on it, but > > seem to be developing software on the fly. I suppose their integration > > process has been hit hard by pandemic distancing, and they are all > > working remotely. > > > > Has anyone else had a successful experience commissioning an Ensemble? > > I'd like to hear about the doos-and-don'ts. > > > > Don Barch > > don at energysolarnow.com > > > > -- > Louis Woofenden > Engineering Director > Net Zero Solar, LLC > 101. W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 > Arizona ROC #248710, 259756, 259521 > > Phone:520.207.4053 Ex. 3 > Cell:520.237.5040 > Fax:520.203.7230 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Oct 15 14:50:28 2020 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 14:50:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DPW rack adjustment In-Reply-To: <78CE46B4-E88F-42EC-8020-E0BAF18FF1E1@gmail.com> References: <78CE46B4-E88F-42EC-8020-E0BAF18FF1E1@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'd suggest reaching out to Travis at MT Solar as he has made custom manual adjusters for my old installed DPW pole mounts. No bolts to remove and easy for anyone to adjust the angle without the need of a ladder. Christopher On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 10:25 AM Jay wrote: > Hi Jeremy, > > I’ve not run into that issue but you could put more bolts at different > locations for different tilts. > > A template would keep them the correct spacing. > > Wouldn’t slide but would be adjustable. > > I don’t know if you’ve tried heat but it’s pretty amazing at getting > things loosened up. > The other way is cold, using a spray can for computers for example. > Or using the combo. > > Damn it’s just a stupid rack, should be easy. > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > On Oct 15, 2020, at 7:52 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: > >  Does anyone have any trick to adjusting the tilt angle of the TPM4 pole > mounts? These are the racks with the aluminum beam (strongback) with slots > for the bolts. > We have tried anti seize, and cutting the heads of the bolts square in > attempts to help with adjustment. > Help! > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu Oct 15 15:43:16 2020 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 14:43:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase noise interference to reporting; use ferrites Message-ID: <049701d6a32b$6d5979f0$480c6dd0$@solarcentex.com> We have a 53 IQ7 microinverter system on new-build construction that reported and performed just great until the homeowner (a custom builder, and one I'm trying not to unimpress!) moved in Sept 1 at which point reporting went wonkers with inconsistent data, perceived underperformance that seemed to shift through the array. All the stuff that makes troubleshooting a nightmare. Enphase tech support level 1 was great and immediately pointed to a noise issue and she had a level 2 tech check and confirm that. She recommended I get it on wifi (was on cell comms until the owner moved in) so I could get near real time reporting, then to go through the pump circuits to see what is making the noise and when I identify it to use ferrite loops to reduce the noise on those circuits. Relatively new to Enphase since they brought on IQ7 and this is first PLC comms issue I've had to date. IQ7+ has been rock-solid for us. Anybody have any experience with this noise and interference and recommendation on ferrite installation? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 37150 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Oct 15 17:33:16 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 17:33:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase noise interference to reporting; use ferrites In-Reply-To: <049701d6a32b$6d5979f0$480c6dd0$@solarcentex.com> References: <049701d6a32b$6d5979f0$480c6dd0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: I don't agree with this advice about the ferrite rings. Put the ferrite rings on the Enphase combined inverter output circuit from the AC combiner to the point of interconnection. That filters out all noise from all sources. I can be a pain with larger conductor sizes if you have to loop the conductors more than once. It sounds like you have #4 minimum for a 66A calculated circuit, which will take some space to accomplish. See here: https://enphase.com/en-us/support/faq/where-do-i-install-ferrite-toroid-rings Now since you say you are using IQ7 micros, presumably you are using the IQ Combiner, which can handle 64 of those micros. When using the IQ Combiner, I have only had one instance where there was sufficient noise to cause a problem with micro->Envoy comms. In this case it was IQ6+ micros and it was a nearby heat pump pool heater causing the interference. It was easy to determine the source since it started each day with the pool pump and stopped when the setpoint pool temperature was reached. It would be helpful to know how you have the AC strings combined and where the Envoy is connected. On cell comms, no matter what, you are at a serious disadvantage. I will say also that cell comm issues can look like micro reporting issues. I had a cell comm site recently where it would all of a sudden not report for 1-3 expected reporting intervals in a row, then catch up. This looked a lot like micro reporting issues from the Enlighten perspective. A software update from Enphase resolved this. Honestly, I hate the Enphase cell comm 6-hour reporting cycle. It is pretty terrible actually. I avoid it at all costs. I had a community of 104 Enphase homes all commissioned on cell modems and it was a nightmare dealing with diagnostics and especially CT issues (since we could not power up systems that had no meter at the time of installation to check CTs for proper installation). I agree with Enphase on this point - get it connected to broadband, at least temporarily to diagnose issues. I have gone as far as using an Ethernet wi-fi bridge connected to my mobile hotspot to diagnose issues. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 5:01 PM wrote: > We have a 53 IQ7 microinverter system on new-build construction that > reported and performed just great until the homeowner (a custom builder, > and one I’m trying not to unimpress!) moved in Sept 1 at which point > reporting went wonkers with inconsistent data, perceived underperformance > that seemed to shift through the array. All the stuff that makes > troubleshooting a nightmare. > > > > Enphase tech support level 1 was great and immediately pointed to a noise > issue and she had a level 2 tech check and confirm that. > > > > She recommended I get it on wifi (was on cell comms until the owner moved > in) so I could get near real time reporting, then to go through the pump > circuits to see what is making the noise and when I identify it to use > ferrite loops to reduce the noise on those circuits. > > > > Relatively new to Enphase since they brought on IQ7 and this is first PLC > comms issue I’ve had to date. IQ7+ has been rock-solid for us. > > > > Anybody have any experience with this noise and interference and > recommendation on ferrite installation? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 37150 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Thu Oct 15 18:17:33 2020 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 18:17:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DPW rack adjustment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I’ve found that using brass nuts work well and don’t seize on the SS bolt. Just be sure to use a lock washer. It’s not like you need a lot of clamping force, the bolt is in pure shear so brass is fine. Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 15, 2020, at 9:52 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > >  Does anyone have any trick to adjusting the tilt angle of the TPM4 pole mounts? These are the racks with the aluminum beam (strongback) with slots for the bolts. > We have tried anti seize, and cutting the heads of the bolts square in attempts to help with adjustment. > Help! > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Thu Oct 15 18:44:14 2020 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 17:44:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DPW rack adjustment In-Reply-To: References: <78CE46B4-E88F-42EC-8020-E0BAF18FF1E1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Chris... I'm intrigued by the custom adjusters from MT. What about the issue of loosening and retorqueing the 350 ftlb main pivot bolt? On Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 1:50 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: > I'd suggest reaching out to Travis at MT Solar as he has made custom > manual adjusters for my old installed DPW pole mounts. No bolts to remove > and easy for anyone to adjust the angle without the need of a ladder. > > Christopher > > On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 10:25 AM Jay wrote: > >> Hi Jeremy, >> >> I’ve not run into that issue but you could put more bolts at different >> locations for different tilts. >> >> A template would keep them the correct spacing. >> >> Wouldn’t slide but would be adjustable. >> >> I don’t know if you’ve tried heat but it’s pretty amazing at getting >> things loosened up. >> The other way is cold, using a spray can for computers for example. >> Or using the combo. >> >> Damn it’s just a stupid rack, should be easy. >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> >> >> >> On Oct 15, 2020, at 7:52 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez >> wrote: >> >>  Does anyone have any trick to adjusting the tilt angle of the TPM4 pole >> mounts? These are the racks with the aluminum beam (strongback) with slots >> for the bolts. >> We have tried anti seize, and cutting the heads of the bolts square in >> attempts to help with adjustment. >> Help! >> >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design Expert >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1463 M St >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 18:46:26 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 15:46:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase noise interference to reporting; use ferrites In-Reply-To: <049701d6a32b$6d5979f0$480c6dd0$@solarcentex.com> References: <049701d6a32b$6d5979f0$480c6dd0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Noise in the AC circuits and Enphase is nothing new, when they adapted the new frequency this was in part to get away from the noise so it sounds like they still have a problem. I have seen a variety of new products effect the data stream. Jerry On Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 2:37 PM wrote: > We have a 53 IQ7 microinverter system on new-build construction that > reported and performed just great until the homeowner (a custom builder, > and one I’m trying not to unimpress!) moved in Sept 1 at which point > reporting went wonkers with inconsistent data, perceived underperformance > that seemed to shift through the array. All the stuff that makes > troubleshooting a nightmare. > > > > Enphase tech support level 1 was great and immediately pointed to a noise > issue and she had a level 2 tech check and confirm that. > > > > She recommended I get it on wifi (was on cell comms until the owner moved > in) so I could get near real time reporting, then to go through the pump > circuits to see what is making the noise and when I identify it to use > ferrite loops to reduce the noise on those circuits. > > > > Relatively new to Enphase since they brought on IQ7 and this is first PLC > comms issue I’ve had to date. IQ7+ has been rock-solid for us. > > > > Anybody have any experience with this noise and interference and > recommendation on ferrite installation? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 37150 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 37150 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 19:52:27 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 17:52:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commissioning issues with Enphase Ensemble In-Reply-To: <20201015102615.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.68edd75f43.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> References: <20201015102615.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.68edd75f43.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Hi Don I’m pretty sure the only option for a vfd is a 3 phase motor on that pump. The advantage would be complete adjustability as to how fast/slow it starts. Another option would be the Grundfos sq pump which is a soft start pump. It’s not going to be adjustable. But I’d like to know if there are soft start options for single phase 240vac motors. Jay Peltz power. > On Oct 15, 2020, at 12:42 PM, don at energysolarnow.com wrote: > >  > With help and a site visit from Adam of Enphase tech support this Ensemble system was successfully brought through commissioning. We had to do a battery black start after it discharged over the weekend. > However, functional testing brought up another issue-- in off grid mode the well pump consistently kicks off the two Encharge3 batteries, presumably from inrush current. This is a 3/4 Franklin pump that apparently lacks any capacitor soft start. It is on a 20 amp 2-pole breaker. We measured the operating current at something like 6 amps; the inrush current is likely a multiple of that. The soft starters from Hyper Engineering recommended by Enphase are made for HVAC units with more accessible wires for compressor and fan. This well pump has only two wires. > Can anyone recommend a soft starter or variable frequency drive (VFD) starter for a two-wire well pump? > > Thanks > Don Barch > Energy Solar > -------- Original Message -------- > > Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 18:12:39 -0700 > From: Louis Woofenden > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Commissioning issues with Enphase Ensemble > Message-ID: <12123009-ea4a-ffdc-f927-8e0ac389131a at woofenden.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" > > > Hi Don and Wrenches, > > I have commissioned four new Ensemble systems over the past two weeks. > All storage additions to existing PV systems with Enphase > microinverters. Although there are parts of the process that are a bit > clunky, we have not had the problems you mention. I followed the > instructions in the tech brief "Ensemble Commissioning via Installer > Toolkit 3.0," linked at > https://enphase.com/en-us/certification-support-program-guidelines > (direct link to the PDF is > https://enphase.com/sites/default/files/Tech%20Brief%20-%20Ensemble%20Commissioning%20via%20Installer%20Toolkit%203.0.pdf). > > My experience is that each of the four Enpower microgrid interconnection > devices we've installed started up in passthrough mode, so if input > breakers are on in the MID, backup loads have had power before > commissioning is completed, and power has remained on for those backup > loads even after we turned off the PV and ESS disconnects to wait for > utility PTO after doing commissioning and functional testing. > > It did take us some time to do the Envoy software update before > commissioning, and the system does require a second trip for functional > testing after the Encharge battery software updates have been done (up > to 12 hours). I haven't stuck on site for the Encharge/Enpower software > updates, but it looks like they are taking 4-6 hours for us, based on > percentage done by the time I've left the site (system sizes from 10.08 > kWh to 20.16 kWh). Yeah, it's a second trip. I've used the trip to meet > with electrical inspectors for these first systems. > > One "trick" I've used on the Envoy software update is that you once you > scan in the serial numbers of each Enpower & Encharge with the installer > toolkit and plug in the cell modem and wireless communications kit, the > installer toolkit will allow the Envoy software update to work, and you > can get it taken care of early in the day, while still hanging boxes, > running conduit, etc. > > I would agree that there are definitely parts of the new installer > toolkit that aren't intuitive. I missed the "edit" button on the devices > page for a bit (which is not mentioned in the tech brief), and couldn't > figure out how to increase the device count, for example. I also had to > try the Envoy update twice for some of these systems, as it threw an > error code the first time around, so for some of the systems it took > closer to 45-50 minutes to get the Envoy software update done. > > Hope the next one goes more smoothly for you! New products, new > challenges, I guess. > > Best, > > Louis Woofenden > > don at energysolarnow.com wrote on 9/30/20 2:59 PM: > > Wrenches- > > I'm having a lot of difficulty commissioning my first Enphase Ensemble > > installation. This is on a pre-existing microinverter installation. > > Have been on the phone with tech support several times; each time they > > forward a Tech Brief about commissioning that has different and > > slightly conflicting instructions. It seems the order of turning on > > each box is critical. Because of already-obsolete software that they > > ship with, the software must be updated before activating the Envoy, > > Enpower, and Encharge or they will not work. > > And for some reason the Envoy must have both Wifi and cell connection > > before even starting commissioning, but the slower cell connection is > > used for software download so it takes up to 12 hours. > > This commissioning must be done on-site using their latest version of > > Installer Toolkit on a smart phone. Sure, there are buttons in > > Enlighten's Activation page to add an Enpower and Encharge, but these > > do not work "yet". > > Enphase tech support says they are working on making this a single-day > > process rather than the current multi-day commissioning. This does not > > even count the actual hardware installation time. > > > > I would advise anyone against moving any loads to a new subpanel > > before the entire system is commissioned and operating. > > As of now I have an Enpower that mistakenly thinks it is off-grid when > > the grid is present, so it has told the Envoy to shut down the PV > > microinverters and batteries. These are relay controlled, therefore it > > is not possible to have them connected without software control.? It > > has already committed the major crime of shutting down the backed-up > > loads while the grid is still present. Enphase is working on it, but > > seem to be developing software on the fly. I suppose their integration > > process has been hit hard by pandemic distancing, and they are all > > working remotely. > > > > Has anyone else had a successful experience commissioning an Ensemble? > > I'd like to hear about the doos-and-don'ts. > > > > Don Barch > > don at energysolarnow.com > > > -- > Louis Woofenden > Engineering Director > Net Zero Solar, LLC > 101. W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 > Arizona ROC #248710, 259756, 259521 > > Phone:520.207.4053 Ex. 3 > Cell:520.237.5040 > Fax:520.203.7230 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Oct 16 07:21:32 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 07:21:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase noise interference to reporting; use ferrites In-Reply-To: References: <049701d6a32b$6d5979f0$480c6dd0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: True, but this is MUCH less of a problem with IQ compared to M-Series. I just installed 212 IQ micros on a building with 268 existing M-Series. The M-series required ferrite rings and the IQ worked flawlessly without any filtering (although it took about 3 hours for all of the IQ micros to initially come alive initially). This is a grocery with a lot of noise / motor loads. Jason On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 6:46 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > Noise in the AC circuits and Enphase is nothing new, when they adapted the > new frequency this was in part to get away from the noise so it sounds like > they still have a problem. I have seen a variety of new products effect the > data stream. > Jerry > > On Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 2:37 PM wrote: > >> We have a 53 IQ7 microinverter system on new-build construction that >> reported and performed just great until the homeowner (a custom builder, >> and one I’m trying not to unimpress!) moved in Sept 1 at which point >> reporting went wonkers with inconsistent data, perceived underperformance >> that seemed to shift through the array. All the stuff that makes >> troubleshooting a nightmare. >> >> >> >> Enphase tech support level 1 was great and immediately pointed to a noise >> issue and she had a level 2 tech check and confirm that. >> >> >> >> She recommended I get it on wifi (was on cell comms until the owner moved >> in) so I could get near real time reporting, then to go through the pump >> circuits to see what is making the noise and when I identify it to use >> ferrite loops to reduce the noise on those circuits. >> >> >> >> Relatively new to Enphase since they brought on IQ7 and this is first PLC >> comms issue I’ve had to date. IQ7+ has been rock-solid for us. >> >> >> >> Anybody have any experience with this noise and interference and >> recommendation on ferrite installation? >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Fri Oct 16 05:09:23 2020 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 05:09:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A company called ViaSat. Northern NH site. Customer tells me it goes down a lot with normal internet use anyway. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 29th Anniversary 1991-2020 www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 10/14/2020 1:09:21 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: Kirk, was that Hughes net that wouldn't recognize the mate? Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 12:23 PM Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: I have a site with satellite internet. it's router would not recognize the Mate 3s or an eguage monitor. I used a Verizon data sim card / jetpack with a repeater to create a Lan connection and all is fine for 9 months now. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 29th Anniversary 1991-2020 www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 10/12/2020 8:51:19 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: Thanks guys. I really appreciate the info. That does a lot to clear up my misgivings with attempting this!  My only hesitancy at this point is switching to the Mate3. When it first came out, I put it into an off grid upgrade, but ended up hating it - I found it more complicated and less intuitive than the original Mate (which says a lot considering the lack of intuitive design of that). So it seemed harder to explain to my clients. (Maybe I just hate change). Dan, do you know why satellite won't work for the optics internet connections? Many of my remote sites only have satellite internet access. Thanks again, Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 7:56 PM Dan Fink wrote: Howie; I'm pretty satisfied with the current condition of the OpticsRE world. Most of the past problems have been ironed out, and I've had good email tech support from Outback (!).  You'll need a Mate 3S, an Outback Hub, and a Flexnet DC with shunts for each channel you want to measure. If all your equipment is Outback, you only need the Net shunt on the FLexnet DC, otherwise, more shunts. As Jerry mentioned, the Mate 3S will automatically get it's IP address from the router and connect online, you just type its MAC address into the OpticsRE portal and it starts communicating. The critical thing is the internet connection -- it must be rock solid or you'll have no end of woes. Satellite internet (Hughes, Exced) will NOT work with it (nor with Midnite's monitoring system BTW). Wired LAN (Cat 5) has worked the best for me, but do NOT exceed (or even approach, in my experience) the 50 foot limit. If you use a wifi adaptor on the Mate 3S instead of wired, make sure you have an *excellent* wifi signal in the room with the Mate 3S.  I've never tried a cell adaptor, as where I work cell service is weak and spotty if it even exists, but I assume a very strong cell connection would be needed. In one situation with no cell service, long wire run for ethernet and bad interior wifi (concrete/stucco/adobe style walls) but good  local coax modem internet, I just ran fiber optic cable with a fiber to ethernet adaptor on each end (Mate 3S and cable modem) outdoors in conduit, about $150 in equipment, and that cable could be half mile long but seem like 3 feet to the Mate 3S.  As for the Midnite controller, just put one shunt for the Flexnet DC on the output of the Midnite CC, and you'll at least be able to read amperage and work the watt/hour meter. The Flexnet DC gives you a shunt channel for net on the main DC negative, plus 3 more shunt channels to measure whatever you want -- wind turbine, other brand CCs, etc. The configurable email alerts and automated daily data dumps are super handy for systems that are hours drive away. I also learned to set the Mate 3S to automatically reboot every 24 hours....this (oddly) cleared up many problems I had in the past with the Mate 3S dropping offline randomly.  Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for:  ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d [mailto:dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com]anbob88 at gmail.com [mailto:anbob88 at gmail.com] 970-672-4342   On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 5:05 PM Howie Michaelson wrote: Hey FOlks, While Outback had been my goto offgrid system, over the last many years I have gravitated to the Conext and Sol-Ark systems.  However, I have many legacy Outback VFX systems out there and some could really use remote communication.  Unfortunately, I have stayed far away from Optics RE, as I haven't been thrilled with the reports of issues the system had. However, it seems it is the best option for remote oversight, so I am trying to figure out what is required and what it is capable of. I've read through the initial documentation and as best I can gather, I need a Mate 3s and an internet connection - is that all?  I assume having a FlexnetDC in the system is critical as well.  I'm also wondering if there is a way to monitor basic production data from a Midnite Classic through the Optics system. And is the Optics RE system fairly solid since I'm not thrilled about putting in systems that need too much fussing or attention to keep operating once they are set up properly. Finally, are there any other comparable monitoring equipment that would work for monitoring such systems? Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 11:38:49 2020 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 09:38:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics RE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: RE Viasat -- there are only 2 residential (ie somewhat affordable) satellite internet options out there currently....Hughesnet and Viasat/Exede/WildBlue. My experience has been that the more expensive "small business" type plans from them are only slightly more reliable than the cheapest plans. Running a "server" is strictly prohibited by both companies, and certain network protocols get flagged that way by the provider. I'm 99% sure that's the only reason Midnite's remote monitor system won't work over satellite. Elon Musk's Starlink will be a serious game changer for us remote rural folks and our off-grid customers. I cheer every time I see a new "train" of his satellites going over my house! Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 9:25 AM Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: > A company called ViaSat. Northern NH site. Customer tells me it goes down > a lot with normal internet use anyway. > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 29th Anniversary 1991-2020* > > *www.vermont.solar* > > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Oct 16 11:53:02 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 09:53:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DPW rack adjustment In-Reply-To: References: <78CE46B4-E88F-42EC-8020-E0BAF18FF1E1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <04a7d3c5-be60-39a0-0191-c0e1893b6f4c@solarray.com> We've used an adjustable link like this Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/15/20 12:50 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > I'd suggest reaching out to Travis at MT Solar as he has made custom > manual adjusters for my old installed DPW pole mounts. No bolts to > remove and easy for anyone to adjust the angle without the need of a > ladder. > > Christopher > > On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 10:25 AM Jay > wrote: > > Hi Jeremy, > > I’ve not run into that issue but you could put more bolts at > different locations for different tilts. > > A template would keep them the correct spacing. > > Wouldn’t slide but would be adjustable. > > I don’t know if you’ve tried heat but it’s pretty amazing at > getting things loosened up. > The other way is cold, using a spray can for computers for example. > Or using the combo. > > Damn it’s just a stupid rack, should be easy. > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > >> On Oct 15, 2020, at 7:52 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez >> > wrote: >> >>  Does anyone have any trick to adjusting the tilt angle of the >> TPM4 pole mounts?  These are the racks with the aluminum beam >> (strongback) with slots for the bolts. >> We have tried anti seize, and cutting the heads of the bolts >> square in attempts to help with adjustment. >> Help! >> >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design Expert >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1463 M St >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > //www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: > chris at solarandwindfx.com / > > / > / > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: biinemamehlfalfl.png Type: image/png Size: 29708 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Fri Oct 16 12:30:32 2020 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 16:30:32 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase noise interference to reporting; use ferrites In-Reply-To: References: <049701d6a32b$6d5979f0$480c6dd0$@solarcentex.com> , Message-ID: Thanks Jason and Scott, Jason is correct. The IQ system uses line to line PLC, whereas the M-Series microinverter communications were line to neutral. Most of the noisy loads (like magnetic ballasts, touch lamps, etc) are 120V line to neutral loads. For that reason, we see very few communication issues with the IQ microinverters. Also, the widespread adoption of combiner boxes has had a huge effect on improving communications. @scot.arey at solarcentex.com, can you confirm that this site is using a combiner box. Keeping the microinverter and Envoy circuits separate from the other house loads is critical to ensuring good communications. We also have a power line filter product (Q-LCF-064-1P) that can be installed between the combiner and the main panel in the rare instances there are poor comms. That filter is very robust and has been designed to filter noise and signals in the 110kHz IQ microinverter communication frequency. Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 4:21 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase noise interference to reporting; use ferrites EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or downloading attachments. True, but this is MUCH less of a problem with IQ compared to M-Series. I just installed 212 IQ micros on a building with 268 existing M-Series. The M-series required ferrite rings and the IQ worked flawlessly without any filtering (although it took about 3 hours for all of the IQ micros to initially come alive initially). This is a grocery with a lot of noise / motor loads. Jason On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 6:46 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: Wrenches Noise in the AC circuits and Enphase is nothing new, when they adapted the new frequency this was in part to get away from the noise so it sounds like they still have a problem. I have seen a variety of new products effect the data stream. Jerry On Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 2:37 PM > wrote: We have a 53 IQ7 microinverter system on new-build construction that reported and performed just great until the homeowner (a custom builder, and one I’m trying not to unimpress!) moved in Sept 1 at which point reporting went wonkers with inconsistent data, perceived underperformance that seemed to shift through the array. All the stuff that makes troubleshooting a nightmare. Enphase tech support level 1 was great and immediately pointed to a noise issue and she had a level 2 tech check and confirm that. She recommended I get it on wifi (was on cell comms until the owner moved in) so I could get near real time reporting, then to go through the pump circuits to see what is making the noise and when I identify it to use ferrite loops to reduce the noise on those circuits. Relatively new to Enphase since they brought on IQ7 and this is first PLC comms issue I’ve had to date. IQ7+ has been rock-solid for us. Anybody have any experience with this noise and interference and recommendation on ferrite installation? [X] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Fri Oct 16 12:43:34 2020 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Scot Arey) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 16:43:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase noise interference to reporting; use ferrites In-Reply-To: References: <049701d6a32b$6d5979f0$480c6dd0$@solarcentex.com> , Message-ID: <2225D1DE8B1FA5EA.cfb6ba32-2e1b-496e-a8c3-da42ddbed383@mail.outlook.com> Yes we use IQ combiners on all new projects. I will try to get my hands on this filter. Many thanks for all responses. Howard "Scot" Arey owner, Solar CenTex 254 300 1228 On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 11:30 AM -0500, "Nick Soleil" wrote: Thanks Jason and Scott, Jason is correct.  The IQ system uses line to line PLC, whereas the M-Series microinverter communications were line to neutral.  Most of the noisy loads (like magnetic ballasts, touch lamps, etc) are 120V line to neutral loads.  For that reason, we see very few communication issues with the IQ microinverters. Also, the widespread adoption of combiner boxes has had a huge effect on improving communications.  @scot.arey at solarcentex.com, can you confirm that this site is using a combiner box.  Keeping the microinverter and Envoy circuits separate from the other house loads is critical to ensuring good communications.  We also have a power line filter product (Q-LCF-064-1P) that can be installed between the combiner and the main panel in the rare instances there are poor comms.  That filter is very robust and has been designed to filter noise and signals in the 110kHz IQ microinverter communication frequency. Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager (707) 763-4784 x7267  // office (707) 321-2937  // cell Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 4:21 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase noise interference to reporting; use ferrites   EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or downloading attachments.     True, but this is MUCH less of a problem with IQ compared to M-Series.  I just installed 212 IQ micros on a building with 268 existing M-Series. The M-series required ferrite rings and the IQ worked flawlessly without any filtering (although it took about 3 hours for all of the IQ micros to initially come alive initially). This is a grocery with a lot of noise / motor loads. Jason On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 6:46 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Noise in the AC circuits and Enphase is nothing new, when they adapted the new frequency this was in part to get away from the noise so it sounds like they still have a problem. I have seen a variety of new products effect the data stream. Jerry On Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 2:37 PM wrote: We have a 53 IQ7 microinverter system on new-build construction that reported and performed just great until the homeowner (a custom builder, and one I’m trying not to unimpress!) moved in Sept 1 at which point reporting went wonkers with inconsistent data, perceived underperformance that seemed to shift through the array. All the stuff that makes troubleshooting a nightmare.   Enphase tech support level 1 was great and immediately pointed to a noise issue and she had a level 2 tech check and confirm that.   She recommended I get it on wifi (was on cell comms until the owner moved in) so I could get near real time reporting, then to go through the pump circuits to see what is making the noise and when I identify it to use ferrite loops to reduce the noise on those circuits.   Relatively new to Enphase since they brought on IQ7 and this is first PLC comms issue I’ve had to date. IQ7+ has been rock-solid for us.   Anybody have any experience with this noise and interference and recommendation on ferrite installation?     _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 14:08:52 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 14:08:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schletter racking Message-ID: Hi All, Does anyone have access to remains/leftover parts of Schletter FS racking. I have a client that had 3 extra posts installed when doing their initial system, for potential future expansion, which they are now trying to figure out. But of course they can't locate any of the racking to go along with the posts. Alternatively, does anyone know of other racking that will work with the schletter post profiles. If nothing can be found, they will have to cut them down and start over. So much for proactively planning ahead... Howie *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Oct 17 00:29:12 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 21:29:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mixing Outback 100 series C with old FX system Message-ID: <5b0bede8ba07f37245c1144953e88d6e@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I installed a Flexmax 100 today in a dual FX system circa 2003. The system has an oval Mate and it is no surprise the old Mate does not communicate with the FM100 as this was made clear from the literature. I plugged in a new Mate3S directly into the FM100 hoping to connect and see data, but alas, the display was almost entirely blank. It only showed the battery voltage which was 500 volts, which I guess is a promotion. I then tried plugging the FM100 into a Hub 10.3 and then into the Mate3S. Still no display. I’d like to field-check the FM100 with a Mate3 or 3S but don’t know how. It used to be you could plug an MX60 into a Mate and get some semblance of normality displayed. Can I swap out the old hub with a 10.3 with the inverters connected and get FM100 data? Any ideas out there? Thanks in advanced. William PS: The FM100 is charging so that is not an issue. Wm Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 10:10:38 2020 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 07:10:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mixing Outback 100 series C with old FX system In-Reply-To: <5b0bede8ba07f37245c1144953e88d6e@mail.gmail.com> References: <5b0bede8ba07f37245c1144953e88d6e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I think there is a jumper in the FM100 that will allow the Mate3s to communicate with it. I don't remember off hand where it is and am not at a computer with that info, but maybe this will prompt a look at the manual to see if they mention it. Brad On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 11:11 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > I installed a Flexmax 100 today in a dual FX system circa 2003. The > system has an oval Mate and it is no surprise the old Mate does not > communicate with the FM100 as this was made clear from the literature. > > > > I plugged in a new Mate3S directly into the FM100 hoping to connect and > see data, but alas, the display was almost entirely blank. It only showed > the battery voltage which was 500 volts, which I guess is a promotion. > > > > I then tried plugging the FM100 into a Hub 10.3 and then into the Mate3S. > Still no display. > > > > I’d like to field-check the FM100 with a Mate3 or 3S but don’t know how. > It used to be you could plug an MX60 into a Mate and get some semblance of > normality displayed. Can I swap out the old hub with a 10.3 with the > inverters connected and get FM100 data? Any ideas out there? > > > > Thanks in advanced. > > > > William > > > > PS: The FM100 is charging so that is not an issue. > > > > Wm > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 10:11:10 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 08:11:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof/self taping screws Message-ID: <329057BF-CD11-4ADD-ADE8-6FF3973A996F@gmail.com> What do people recommend for a metal roof ( with flat sections, not corrugated)on 3/16” thick x 2” wide C channel for attaching L feet Self taping fasteners would be the easiest. Doing a nut and bolt would be possible but quite time consuming. A machine self taping bolt and then adding a nut would be a lot easier than nut and bolt. But that is my question. Is a self taping screw enough or does it need to be bolted? Jay Peltz power From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat Oct 17 11:14:08 2020 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 09:14:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof/self taping screws In-Reply-To: <329057BF-CD11-4ADD-ADE8-6FF3973A996F@gmail.com> References: <329057BF-CD11-4ADD-ADE8-6FF3973A996F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <10a4067d-136f-819d-864d-88eecdbc814c@sindelarsolar.com> Jay, I researched this years ago, so I have no specific figures for you such as pullout strength, only the general lesson that I learned. The pullout strength of Tek and similar self-tapping screws is surprisingly high, especially in the larger diameters, such as #14, which equates to 1/4" as I recall. As long as the purlin into which you're drilling and threading is of sufficient thickness to resist deforming and tearout (your 3/16" should be sufficient), the screw will not tear out under more-than-normal wind loading. You should be able to find actual values via online research, as I did. Allan On 10/17/2020 8:11 AM, Jay wrote: > What do people recommend for a metal roof ( with flat sections, not corrugated)on 3/16” thick x 2” wide C channel for attaching L feet > > Self taping fasteners would be the easiest. Doing a nut and bolt would be possible but quite time consuming. > A machine self taping bolt and then adding a nut would be a lot easier than nut and bolt. > > But that is my question. Is a self taping screw enough or does it need to be bolted? > > Jay > Peltz power -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Oct 17 11:38:33 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 08:38:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof/self taping screws In-Reply-To: <329057BF-CD11-4ADD-ADE8-6FF3973A996F@gmail.com> References: <329057BF-CD11-4ADD-ADE8-6FF3973A996F@gmail.com> Message-ID: EJOT https://www.ejot.com/Building-Fasteners/Applications/Fastening-Systems-for-Solar-Installations/For-roof-systems/c/SOLAR_FASTENING_SYSTEMS_ROOFING William Miller www.millersolar.com > On Oct 17, 2020, at 7:53 AM, Jay wrote: > > What do people recommend for a metal roof ( with flat sections, not corrugated)on 3/16” thick x 2” wide C channel for attaching L feet > > Self taping fasteners would be the easiest. Doing a nut and bolt would be possible but quite time consuming. > A machine self taping bolt and then adding a nut would be a lot easier than nut and bolt. > > But that is my question. Is a self taping screw enough or does it need to be bolted? > > Jay > Peltz power > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 15:52:43 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 12:52:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof/self taping screws In-Reply-To: <329057BF-CD11-4ADD-ADE8-6FF3973A996F@gmail.com> References: <329057BF-CD11-4ADD-ADE8-6FF3973A996F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Why puncture the metal can't S-5 be used. Jerry On Sat, Oct 17, 2020, 12:42 PM Jay wrote: > What do people recommend for a metal roof ( with flat sections, not > corrugated)on 3/16” thick x 2” wide C channel for attaching L feet > > Self taping fasteners would be the easiest. Doing a nut and bolt would be > possible but quite time consuming. > A machine self taping bolt and then adding a nut would be a lot easier > than nut and bolt. > > But that is my question. Is a self taping screw enough or does it need to > be bolted? > > Jay > Peltz power > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Oct 17 16:33:17 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 16:33:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof/self taping screws In-Reply-To: References: <329057BF-CD11-4ADD-ADE8-6FF3973A996F@gmail.com> Message-ID: There is a glaring lack of good options for 5V metal roofs in Florida. Sure, there are some butyl tape based attachments that penetrate the metal, but what happens when the truss lands below a V-crimp? The only real option is a deck mount solution or truss blocking (which is excruciating in a Florida attic. On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 3:53 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Why puncture the metal can't S-5 be used. > Jerry > > On Sat, Oct 17, 2020, 12:42 PM Jay wrote: > >> What do people recommend for a metal roof ( with flat sections, not >> corrugated)on 3/16” thick x 2” wide C channel for attaching L feet >> >> Self taping fasteners would be the easiest. Doing a nut and bolt would be >> possible but quite time consuming. >> A machine self taping bolt and then adding a nut would be a lot easier >> than nut and bolt. >> >> But that is my question. Is a self taping screw enough or does it need to >> be bolted? >> >> Jay >> Peltz power >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 17:23:03 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 15:23:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof/self taping screws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jerry I thought about it. But they are $5 each Not rated for L feet Have 4 holes vs 1 hole There is no underlayment as it’s a barn Using polybutylene tape and or caulk, it’s a pretty solid way to keep water out and with the self tapping bolts is more secure to me ( thanks Allan). The parts that William suggested are designed for metal roof over wood substructure, not applicable in this case. I’ll just look for the right self driving lag bolt Jay > On Oct 17, 2020, at 1:53 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > >  > Why puncture the metal can't S-5 be used. > Jerry > >> On Sat, Oct 17, 2020, 12:42 PM Jay wrote: >> What do people recommend for a metal roof ( with flat sections, not corrugated)on 3/16” thick x 2” wide C channel for attaching L feet >> >> Self taping fasteners would be the easiest. Doing a nut and bolt would be possible but quite time consuming. >> A machine self taping bolt and then adding a nut would be a lot easier than nut and bolt. >> >> But that is my question. Is a self taping screw enough or does it need to be bolted? >> >> Jay >> Peltz power >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 17:39:41 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 15:39:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof/self taping screws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8DE15CEB-0C7B-4BEA-B8C1-0A97142B6794@gmail.com> I just found a company that has a very large selection of self tapping screws and bolts. And lots of technical data. https://www.dynamicfastener.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/2020-Hand-Guide-MAPP-small.pdf This is the link to their catalog. Otherwise just lookup dynamic fastener. Jay > On Oct 17, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Jay wrote: > >  > Hi Jerry > > I thought about it. > But they are $5 each > Not rated for L feet > Have 4 holes vs 1 hole > There is no underlayment as it’s a barn > > Using polybutylene tape and or caulk, it’s a pretty solid way to keep water out and with the self tapping bolts is more secure to me ( thanks Allan). > > The parts that William suggested are designed for metal roof over wood substructure, not applicable in this case. > > I’ll just look for the right self driving lag bolt > > Jay > > > > >>> On Oct 17, 2020, at 1:53 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>> >>  >> Why puncture the metal can't S-5 be used. >> Jerry >> >>> On Sat, Oct 17, 2020, 12:42 PM Jay wrote: >>> What do people recommend for a metal roof ( with flat sections, not corrugated)on 3/16” thick x 2” wide C channel for attaching L feet >>> >>> Self taping fasteners would be the easiest. Doing a nut and bolt would be possible but quite time consuming. >>> A machine self taping bolt and then adding a nut would be a lot easier than nut and bolt. >>> >>> But that is my question. Is a self taping screw enough or does it need to be bolted? >>> >>> Jay >>> Peltz power >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Oct 17 18:31:48 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 15:31:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof/self taping screws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay: Look again. There are fasteners for metal purlins. One is the JT3-SB-8.0 with FZD sealing washer and the other is the JT3-SB-8.0 with storm washer. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jay *Sent:* Saturday, October 17, 2020 2:23 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof/self taping screws Hi Jerry I thought about it. But they are $5 each Not rated for L feet Have 4 holes vs 1 hole There is no underlayment as it’s a barn Using polybutylene tape and or caulk, it’s a pretty solid way to keep water out and with the self tapping bolts is more secure to me ( thanks Allan). The parts that William suggested are designed for metal roof over wood substructure, not applicable in this case. I’ll just look for the right self driving lag bolt Jay On Oct 17, 2020, at 1:53 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:  Why puncture the metal can't S-5 be used. Jerry On Sat, Oct 17, 2020, 12:42 PM Jay wrote: What do people recommend for a metal roof ( with flat sections, not corrugated)on 3/16” thick x 2” wide C channel for attaching L feet Self taping fasteners would be the easiest. Doing a nut and bolt would be possible but quite time consuming. A machine self taping bolt and then adding a nut would be a lot easier than nut and bolt. But that is my question. Is a self taping screw enough or does it need to be bolted? Jay Peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 21:37:07 2020 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier III) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 21:37:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof Message-ID: <08a9103c-e8ff-e375-855d-bb2098cd2c79@gmail.com> I'm with Jerry Shafer on this one. S-5 clamps with rails work well without punching holes in the metal roof. If the roof is fastened well to beefy steel C channel it should be fine. The S-5 clamps themselves are stronger than the roofing. -- Hilton Dier III Missisquoi River Hydro Renewable Energy Design -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Oct 18 11:42:02 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2020 08:42:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof In-Reply-To: <08a9103c-e8ff-e375-855d-bb2098cd2c79@gmail.com> References: <08a9103c-e8ff-e375-855d-bb2098cd2c79@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5f14b68a943c52915fb34308986d4470@127.0.0.1> The S5 is only as good as the installer. I have seen them come off with a string of panels on an insurance inspection I did. I billed them and made another note in my journal of why the only thing that should go on a metal roof is rainwater. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 21:37:07 -0400, Hilton Dier III wrote: I'm with Jerry Shafer on this one. S-5 clamps with rails work well without punching holes in the metal roof. If the roof is fastened well to beefy steel C channel it should be fine. The S-5 clamps themselves are stronger than the roofing. -- Hilton Dier III Missisquoi River Hydro Renewable Energy Design Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Oct 18 12:00:29 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2020 09:00:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof In-Reply-To: <5f14b68a943c52915fb34308986d4470@127.0.0.1> References: <08a9103c-e8ff-e375-855d-bb2098cd2c79@gmail.com> <5f14b68a943c52915fb34308986d4470@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Wrenches I think what you said is totally true,"its only as good as the instalation" but here is where l differ, S-5's if installed correctly are no different than anything else installed on the roof. Jerry On Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 8:42 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > The S5 is only as good as the installer. I have seen them come off with a > string of panels on an insurance inspection I did. > > I billed them and made another note in my journal of why the only thing > that should go on a metal roof is rainwater. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 21:37:07 -0400, Hilton Dier III > wrote: > > I'm with Jerry Shafer on this one. S-5 clamps with rails work well without > punching holes in the metal roof. If the roof is fastened well to beefy > steel C channel it should be fine. The S-5 clamps themselves are stronger > than the roofing. > > -- > Hilton Dier III > Missisquoi River Hydro > Renewable Energy Design > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Oct 18 15:55:34 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2020 15:55:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof In-Reply-To: References: <08a9103c-e8ff-e375-855d-bb2098cd2c79@gmail.com> <5f14b68a943c52915fb34308986d4470@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: I would add that S-5s are only as good as the roof. We saw a large system (not ours) that ripped the metal right off the roof during Hurricane Irma. It literally tore the meta. The panels, rails, and S-5s were still connected, sitting on the ground with chunks of metal roofing still attached to the S-5s. It was quite the mangled mess. We salvaged quite a bit, but the client built a ground rack after this. To be fair, this was a totally exposed beachfront home. I don't know what the spacing was on the clamps, either. On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:00 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > I think what you said is totally true,"its only as good as the > instalation" but here is where l differ, S-5's if installed correctly are > no different than anything else installed on the roof. > Jerry > > On Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 8:42 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > >> The S5 is only as good as the installer. I have seen them come off with a >> string of panels on an insurance inspection I did. >> >> I billed them and made another note in my journal of why the only thing >> that should go on a metal roof is rainwater. >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 21:37:07 -0400, Hilton Dier III >> wrote: >> >> I'm with Jerry Shafer on this one. S-5 clamps with rails work well >> without punching holes in the metal roof. If the roof is fastened well to >> beefy steel C channel it should be fine. The S-5 clamps themselves are >> stronger than the roofing. >> >> -- >> Hilton Dier III >> Missisquoi River Hydro >> Renewable Energy Design >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Sun Oct 18 21:09:41 2020 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 01:09:41 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof/self taping screws In-Reply-To: <329057BF-CD11-4ADD-ADE8-6FF3973A996F@gmail.com> References: <329057BF-CD11-4ADD-ADE8-6FF3973A996F@gmail.com> Message-ID: We’ve had good luck with thread cutting screws. Found some 3/8“ diameter that worked good with the LFeet and butyl tape. Need to pre drill the perlin. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Oct 17, 2020, at 8:53 AM, Jay wrote: What do people recommend for a metal roof ( with flat sections, not corrugated)on 3/16” thick x 2” wide C channel for attaching L feet Self taping fasteners would be the easiest. Doing a nut and bolt would be possible but quite time consuming. A machine self taping bolt and then adding a nut would be a lot easier than nut and bolt. But that is my question. Is a self taping screw enough or does it need to be bolted? Jay Peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Mon Oct 19 08:16:26 2020 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 08:16:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof In-Reply-To: References: <08a9103c-e8ff-e375-855d-bb2098cd2c79@gmail.com> <5f14b68a943c52915fb34308986d4470@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: It's interesting that you experienced this as I've always told customers that the roof will come off the building with the array attached before the array comes off the metal roof. Sounds like the issue was with the attachment (or lack of) between the roof and the building. Thanks, Will -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 5:41 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I would add that S-5s are only as good as the roof. We saw a large system > (not ours) that ripped the metal right off the roof during Hurricane Irma. > It literally tore the meta. The panels, rails, and S-5s were still > connected, sitting on the ground with chunks of metal roofing still > attached to the S-5s. It was quite the mangled mess. We salvaged quite a > bit, but the client built a ground rack after this. > > To be fair, this was a totally exposed beachfront home. I don't know what > the spacing was on the clamps, either. > > > On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:00 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Wrenches >> I think what you said is totally true,"its only as good as the >> instalation" but here is where l differ, S-5's if installed correctly are >> no different than anything else installed on the roof. >> Jerry >> >> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 8:42 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < >> offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: >> >>> The S5 is only as good as the installer. I have seen them come off with >>> a string of panels on an insurance inspection I did. >>> >>> I billed them and made another note in my journal of why the only thing >>> that should go on a metal roof is rainwater. >>> >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 21:37:07 -0400, Hilton Dier III < >>> hiltondier at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> I'm with Jerry Shafer on this one. S-5 clamps with rails work well >>> without punching holes in the metal roof. If the roof is fastened well to >>> beefy steel C channel it should be fine. The S-5 clamps themselves are >>> stronger than the roofing. >>> >>> -- >>> Hilton Dier III >>> Missisquoi River Hydro >>> Renewable Energy Design >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 09:32:16 2020 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 09:32:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mixing Outback 100 series C with old FX system In-Reply-To: References: <5b0bede8ba07f37245c1144953e88d6e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, I don’t think the fm100 will be visible unless you reboot the whole system with inverter attached to port 1 of hub, mate3s attached to mate terminal in hub and fm100 plugged into port 2 of hub. I’ve done this numerous times and you can program the fm 100. However, I have never left an fm100 without a mate3. Not sure if the charge controller will just keep running blind when you unplug the mate 3s. You could try it and see if if it shows charging on a trimetric or with a clamp meter. Yes, a mate3s and fm100 and hub is quite a financial bite when just looking for higher voltage or higher amperage controller. John Blittersdorf On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 10:11 AM Bradley Bassett wrote: > I think there is a jumper in the FM100 that will allow the Mate3s to > communicate with it. I don't remember off hand where it is and am not at a > computer with that info, but maybe this will prompt a look at the manual to > see if they mention it. > > Brad > > On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 11:11 PM William Miller > wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I installed a Flexmax 100 today in a dual FX system circa 2003. The >> system has an oval Mate and it is no surprise the old Mate does not >> communicate with the FM100 as this was made clear from the literature. >> >> >> >> I plugged in a new Mate3S directly into the FM100 hoping to connect and >> see data, but alas, the display was almost entirely blank. It only showed >> the battery voltage which was 500 volts, which I guess is a promotion. >> >> >> >> I then tried plugging the FM100 into a Hub 10.3 and then into the >> Mate3S. Still no display. >> >> >> >> I’d like to field-check the FM100 with a Mate3 or 3S but don’t know how. >> It used to be you could plug an MX60 into a Mate and get some semblance of >> normality displayed. Can I swap out the old hub with a 10.3 with the >> inverters connected and get FM100 data? Any ideas out there? >> >> >> >> Thanks in advanced. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> PS: The FM100 is charging so that is not an issue. >> >> >> >> Wm >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Oct 19 10:15:31 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 07:15:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Friends: I have figured that the best way to improve a standing seam installation is to add more S5 clips. Each seam has a finite number of fasteners into the sheeting. Therefore if you attach to more seams you attach to more fasteners into the deck. We double the required number of clips at the perimeters and always stagger our clip pattern to attach to the maximum number of seams. Does this logic make sense? William Miller www.millersolar.com > On Oct 19, 2020, at 5:16 AM, Will White wrote: > >  > It's interesting that you experienced this as I've always told customers that the roof will come off the building with the array attached before the array comes off the metal roof. Sounds like the issue was with the attachment (or lack of) between the roof and the building. > > Thanks, > Will > > -- > Will White > Curriculum Developer > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change. > > > >> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 5:41 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> I would add that S-5s are only as good as the roof. We saw a large system (not ours) that ripped the metal right off the roof during Hurricane Irma. It literally tore the meta. The panels, rails, and S-5s were still connected, sitting on the ground with chunks of metal roofing still attached to the S-5s. It was quite the mangled mess. We salvaged quite a bit, but the client built a ground rack after this. >> >> To be fair, this was a totally exposed beachfront home. I don't know what the spacing was on the clamps, either. >> >> >>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:00 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: >>> Wrenches >>> I think what you said is totally true,"its only as good as the instalation" but here is where l differ, S-5's if installed correctly are no different than anything else installed on the roof. >>> Jerry >>> >>>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 8:42 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>>> The S5 is only as good as the installer. I have seen them come off with a string of panels on an insurance inspection I did. >>>> >>>> I billed them and made another note in my journal of why the only thing that should go on a metal roof is rainwater. >>>> >>>> >>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060 >>>>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 21:37:07 -0400, Hilton Dier III wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I'm with Jerry Shafer on this one. S-5 clamps with rails work well without punching holes in the metal roof. If the roof is fastened well to beefy steel C channel it should be fine. The S-5 clamps themselves are stronger than the roofing. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Hilton Dier III >>>>> Missisquoi River Hydro >>>>> Renewable Energy Design >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > -- > Will White > Curriculum Developer > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarwrench at asis.com Mon Oct 19 12:25:52 2020 From: solarwrench at asis.com (Kelly Larson) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 09:25:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Design Software? Message-ID: <262875ae-bb69-7647-a0a2-e3da4648ff89@asis.com> Hi y'all, Since I haven't been doing layout/design recently, I wonder what software I can recommend to a client.  He is a newbie doing mostly commercial systems - some roof and some ground mount.  The software needs to layout strings for string inverters, calc voltage drop, conductor sizes, etc, and show distances. Suggestions? Thank you in advance, Kelly From august at luminalt.com Mon Oct 19 12:30:33 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 09:30:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof/self taping screws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This topic surfaces from time to time on Wrenches. We've had good luck with S-5! CorruBrackets, which use self tappers into the sheet metal. I see that S-5! has a few newer similar products as well: https://s-5.com/products/clamps-brackets/ As mentioned on previous posts, the pullout for self tappers is surprisingly high. You need to verify how the metal roof is fastened to the support structure, so it is not the weak link. August On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 4:31 PM William Miller wrote: > Jay: > > > > Look again. There are fasteners for metal purlins. One is the JT3-SB-8.0 > with FZD sealing washer and the other is the JT3-SB-8.0 with storm washer. > > > > > > > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jay > *Sent:* Saturday, October 17, 2020 2:23 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof/self taping screws > > > > Hi Jerry > > > > I thought about it. > > But they are $5 each > > Not rated for L feet > > Have 4 holes vs 1 hole > > There is no underlayment as it’s a barn > > > > Using polybutylene tape and or caulk, it’s a pretty solid way to keep > water out and with the self tapping bolts is more secure to me ( thanks > Allan). > > > > The parts that William suggested are designed for metal roof over wood > substructure, not applicable in this case. > > > > I’ll just look for the right self driving lag bolt > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 17, 2020, at 1:53 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >  > > Why puncture the metal can't S-5 be used. > > Jerry > > > > On Sat, Oct 17, 2020, 12:42 PM Jay wrote: > > What do people recommend for a metal roof ( with flat sections, not > corrugated)on 3/16” thick x 2” wide C channel for attaching L feet > > Self taping fasteners would be the easiest. Doing a nut and bolt would be > possible but quite time consuming. > A machine self taping bolt and then adding a nut would be a lot easier > than nut and bolt. > > But that is my question. Is a self taping screw enough or does it need to > be bolted? > > Jay > Peltz power > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarwrench at asis.com Mon Oct 19 12:33:46 2020 From: solarwrench at asis.com (Kelly Larson) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 09:33:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Design Software? Message-ID: Hi y'all, Since I haven't been doing layout/design recently, I wonder what software I can recommend to a client.  He is a newbie doing mostly commercial systems - some roof and some ground mount.  The software needs to layout strings for string inverters, calc voltage drop, conductor sizes, etc, and show distances. Suggestions? Thank you in advance, Kelly ~~~~~~~~~~~ Kelly Larson 707-223-3209 Box 18094 Reno, NV 89511 Electrical Engineer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ NABCEP Certified PV Installer Specialist™ NABCEP Certified PV Commissioning & Maintenance Specialist™ IREC Certified Master Trainer™/ PV CA Electrical Contractor# 868189 Solar Energy International Instructor SolarKelly.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Mon Oct 19 13:09:10 2020 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Tuss, Lones) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 17:09:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mixing Outback 100 series C with old FX system In-Reply-To: <5b0bede8ba07f37245c1144953e88d6e@mail.gmail.com> References: <5b0bede8ba07f37245c1144953e88d6e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello All Hi William I just tried my Mate3S in to my FM100AFCI and it does see the FM100 and all the screen are available. Here is a screen shot from the Quick Start Guide http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/charge_controllers/flexmax_100_afci/fm100_afci_qsg.pdf There are 2 ports on the FM both will accept a cat5 comm cable use the left port. [cid:image002.jpg at 01D6A5FF.E10C46D0] From: William Miller Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 9:29 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Tuss, Lones Subject: Mixing Outback 100 series C with old FX system Friends: I installed a Flexmax 100 today in a dual FX system circa 2003. The system has an oval Mate and it is no surprise the old Mate does not communicate with the FM100 as this was made clear from the literature. I plugged in a new Mate3S directly into the FM100 hoping to connect and see data, but alas, the display was almost entirely blank. It only showed the battery voltage which was 500 volts, which I guess is a promotion. I then tried plugging the FM100 into a Hub 10.3 and then into the Mate3S. Still no display. I’d like to field-check the FM100 with a Mate3 or 3S but don’t know how. It used to be you could plug an MX60 into a Mate and get some semblance of normality displayed. Can I swap out the old hub with a 10.3 with the inverters connected and get FM100 data? Any ideas out there? Thanks in advanced. William PS: The FM100 is charging so that is not an issue. Wm Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 This email and any attachments may contain confidential information that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the environment before printing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28451 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Mon Oct 19 13:26:50 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 10:26:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3619ee25-1e1f-54ef-f5ef-1d1bfcc99050@coveoregon.com> William, More S5 standing seam attachments spreads the load onto more of the metal roof fasteners. In Oregon, the Structural Code, requires a standing seam attachment every 24" maximum. Since the common standing seam panels are 16" wide that means one attachment per seam -- a lot of attachments. Never had one come off even with 32" or 48" spacing, previous to current code, but I'm not in area that gets serious winds. S5 also makes attachments designed for other types of metal roofs, the mix of discussion of standing seam clamps and clamps design to attached to decking or to purlins has made this topic a bit difficult to follow. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 10/19/2020 7:15 AM, William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > I have figured that the best way to improve a standing seam > installation is to add more S5 clips. Each seam has a finite number of > fasteners into the sheeting. Therefore if you attach to more seams you > attach to more fasteners into the deck. > > We double the required number of clips at the perimeters and always > stagger our clip pattern to attach to the maximum number of seams. > > Does this logic make sense? > > William Miller > www.millersolar.com > >> On Oct 19, 2020, at 5:16 AM, Will White wrote: >> >>  >> It's interesting that you experienced this as I've always told >> customers that the roof will come off the building with the array >> attached before the array comes off the metal roof. Sounds like the >> issue was with the attachment (or lack of) between the roof and the >> building. >> >> Thanks, >> Will >> >>   -- >> *Will White* >> Curriculum Developer >> >> >> e: will at solarenergy.org >> w: www.solarenergy.org >> p: 802-272-3092 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> # 093006-34 >> Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change >> . >> >> >> >> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 5:41 PM Jason Szumlanski >> > > wrote: >> >> I would add that S-5s are only as good as the roof. We saw a >> large system (not ours) that ripped the metal right off the roof >> during Hurricane Irma. It literally tore the meta. The panels, >> rails, and S-5s were still connected, sitting on the ground with >> chunks of metal roofing still attached to the S-5s. It was quite >> the mangled mess. We salvaged quite a bit, but the client built a >> ground rack after this. >> >> To be fair, this was a totally exposed beachfront home. I don't >> know what the spacing was on the clamps, either. >> >> >> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:00 PM Jerry Shafer >> > wrote: >> >> Wrenches >> I think what you said is totally true,"its only as good as >> the instalation" but here is where l differ, S-5's if >> installed correctly are no different than anything else >> installed on the roof. >> Jerry >> >> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 8:42 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> > wrote: >> >> The S5 is only as good as the installer. I have seen them >> come off with a string of panels on an insurance >> inspection I did. >> >> I billed them and made another note in my journal of why >> the only thing that should go on a metal roof is rainwater. >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines >> don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 21:37:07 -0400, Hilton Dier III >> > wrote: >> >>> I'm with Jerry Shafer on this one. S-5 clamps with rails >>> work well without punching holes in the metal roof. If >>> the roof is fastened well to beefy steel C channel it >>> should be fine. The S-5 clamps themselves are stronger >>> than the roofing. >>> >>> -- >>> Hilton Dier III >>> Missisquoi River Hydro >>> Renewable Energy Design >> >> -- >> *Will White* >> Curriculum Developer >> >> >> e: will at solarenergy.org >> w: www.solarenergy.org >> p: 802-272-3092 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> # 093006-34 >> Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change >> . >> _______________________________________________ >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 14:48:36 2020 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 12:48:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mixing Outback 100 series C with old FX system In-Reply-To: References: <5b0bede8ba07f37245c1144953e88d6e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maybe Brad is referring to the GFDI jumper or the RSS jumper? I don't know of a jumper to activate comms with the Mate 3S. The former is for bonding and you remove it if you use an external GFDI, like a Midnite GFCI in a Midnite MNDC enclosure. It's the little black wire with 2 red spade connectors under the terminal block. The RSS jumper you have to make out of a scrap of wire to DIS-able the Flexmax 100 internal RSS trigger. It goes between the yellow and purple terminal blocks. If you don't install it, the CC assumes the RSS has been activated. I love this one for my students, when their homework before lab class is to *thoroughly* read the instructions and make notes! I can easily tell if they actually did LOL. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 8:11 AM Bradley Bassett wrote: > I think there is a jumper in the FM100 that will allow the Mate3s to > communicate with it. I don't remember off hand where it is and am not at a > computer with that info, but maybe this will prompt a look at the manual to > see if they mention it. > > Brad > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 14:55:59 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 12:55:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mixing Outback 100 series C with old FX system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7421AE2E-15C1-414F-9D78-B2932A208800@gmail.com> On page 71 there is a small note about hooking up a FNDC without an inverter. It might be what Brad was mentioning. Jay > On Oct 19, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > >  > Maybe Brad is referring to the GFDI jumper or the RSS jumper? I don't know of a jumper to activate comms with the Mate 3S. > > The former is for bonding and you remove it if you use an external GFDI, like a Midnite GFCI in a Midnite MNDC enclosure. It's the little black wire with 2 red spade connectors under the terminal block. > > The RSS jumper you have to make out of a scrap of wire to DIS-able the Flexmax 100 internal RSS trigger. It goes between the yellow and purple terminal blocks. If you don't install it, the CC assumes the RSS has been activated. I love this one for my students, when their homework before lab class is to *thoroughly* read the instructions and make notes! I can easily tell if they actually did LOL. > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers > danbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > >> On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 8:11 AM Bradley Bassett wrote: >> I think there is a jumper in the FM100 that will allow the Mate3s to communicate with it. I don't remember off hand where it is and am not at a computer with that info, but maybe this will prompt a look at the manual to see if they mention it. >> >> Brad >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 13:52:06 2020 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 11:52:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Design Software? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kelly! I'm a fan of Helioscope, particularly for commercial applications. For projects with multiple roof pitches and/or partial shading, Aurora works pretty well. Regards, Andrew Truitt www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in this message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 10:33 AM Kelly Larson wrote: > Hi y'all, > > Since I haven't been doing layout/design recently, I wonder what software > I can recommend to a client. He is a newbie doing mostly commercial > systems - some roof and some ground mount. The software needs to layout > strings for string inverters, calc voltage drop, conductor sizes, etc, and > show distances. > > Suggestions? > > Thank you in advance, > Kelly > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Kelly Larson > 707-223-3209 > Box 18094 > Reno, NV 89511 > Electrical Engineer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ > NABCEP Certified PV Installer Specialist™ > NABCEP Certified PV Commissioning & Maintenance Specialist™ > IREC Certified Master Trainer™/ PV > CA Electrical Contractor# 868189 > Solar Energy International Instructor > SolarKelly.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Oct 19 11:23:04 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 11:23:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof In-Reply-To: References: <08a9103c-e8ff-e375-855d-bb2098cd2c79@gmail.com> <5f14b68a943c52915fb34308986d4470@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: I would say it was the metal itself. It was torn, so the clips that hold the metal to the roof held, at least long enough for the metal to tear. It is completely plausible that the point load was too high from too few clamps. On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 8:16 AM Will White wrote: > It's interesting that you experienced this as I've always told customers > that the roof will come off the building with the array attached before the > array comes off the metal roof. Sounds like the issue was with the > attachment (or lack of) between the roof and the building. > > Thanks, > Will > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > > > p: 802-272-3092 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change > > . > > > > On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 5:41 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I would add that S-5s are only as good as the roof. We saw a large system >> (not ours) that ripped the metal right off the roof during Hurricane Irma. >> It literally tore the meta. The panels, rails, and S-5s were still >> connected, sitting on the ground with chunks of metal roofing still >> attached to the S-5s. It was quite the mangled mess. We salvaged quite a >> bit, but the client built a ground rack after this. >> >> To be fair, this was a totally exposed beachfront home. I don't know what >> the spacing was on the clamps, either. >> >> >> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:00 PM Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >>> Wrenches >>> I think what you said is totally true,"its only as good as the >>> instalation" but here is where l differ, S-5's if installed correctly are >>> no different than anything else installed on the roof. >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 8:42 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < >>> offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: >>> >>>> The S5 is only as good as the installer. I have seen them come off with >>>> a string of panels on an insurance inspection I did. >>>> >>>> I billed them and made another note in my journal of why the only thing >>>> that should go on a metal roof is rainwater. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 21:37:07 -0400, Hilton Dier III < >>>> hiltondier at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm with Jerry Shafer on this one. S-5 clamps with rails work well >>>> without punching holes in the metal roof. If the roof is fastened well to >>>> beefy steel C channel it should be fine. The S-5 clamps themselves are >>>> stronger than the roofing. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Hilton Dier III >>>> Missisquoi River Hydro >>>> Renewable Energy Design >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > > > p: 802-272-3092 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change > > . > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phil at insoltechsolar.com Mon Oct 19 15:24:20 2020 From: phil at insoltechsolar.com (Philip Lawes Insoltech) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 12:24:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Design Software? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007801d6a64d$7243b1e0$56cb15a0$@insoltechsolar.com> Aurora Philip N Lawes 172 Wave St. Laguna Beach, Ca. 92651 Office: 949-497-6300 Cell: 949-510-0687 Email: Phil at Insoltechsolar.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kelly Larson Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 9:34 AM To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Design Software? Hi y'all, Since I haven't been doing layout/design recently, I wonder what software I can recommend to a client. He is a newbie doing mostly commercial systems - some roof and some ground mount. The software needs to layout strings for string inverters, calc voltage drop, conductor sizes, etc, and show distances. Suggestions? Thank you in advance, Kelly ~~~~~~~~~~~ Kelly Larson 707-223-3209 Box 18094 Reno, NV 89511 Electrical Engineer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ NABCEP Certified PV Installer Specialist™ NABCEP Certified PV Commissioning & Maintenance Specialist™ IREC Certified Master Trainer™/ PV CA Electrical Contractor# 868189 Solar Energy International Instructor SolarKelly.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 40316 bytes Desc: not available URL: From will at solarenergy.org Mon Oct 19 15:37:42 2020 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 15:37:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof In-Reply-To: References: <08a9103c-e8ff-e375-855d-bb2098cd2c79@gmail.com> <5f14b68a943c52915fb34308986d4470@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: That's a really interesting failure mode. I would have thought the fasteners would have pulled out but I guess it makes sense that the metal ripped. On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 3:19 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I would say it was the metal itself. It was torn, so the clips that hold > the metal to the roof held, at least long enough for the metal to tear. It > is completely plausible that the point load was too high from too few > clamps. > > > > On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 8:16 AM Will White wrote: > >> It's interesting that you experienced this as I've always told customers >> that the roof will come off the building with the array attached before the >> array comes off the metal roof. Sounds like the issue was with the >> attachment (or lack of) between the roof and the building. >> >> Thanks, >> Will >> >> -- >> *Will White* >> Curriculum Developer >> >> >> e: will at solarenergy.org >> w: www.solarenergy.org >> >> >> p: 802-272-3092 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> # 093006-34 >> Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change >> >> . >> >> >> >> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 5:41 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> I would add that S-5s are only as good as the roof. We saw a large >>> system (not ours) that ripped the metal right off the roof during Hurricane >>> Irma. It literally tore the meta. The panels, rails, and S-5s were still >>> connected, sitting on the ground with chunks of metal roofing still >>> attached to the S-5s. It was quite the mangled mess. We salvaged quite a >>> bit, but the client built a ground rack after this. >>> >>> To be fair, this was a totally exposed beachfront home. I don't know >>> what the spacing was on the clamps, either. >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:00 PM Jerry Shafer >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Wrenches >>>> I think what you said is totally true,"its only as good as the >>>> instalation" but here is where l differ, S-5's if installed correctly are >>>> no different than anything else installed on the roof. >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 8:42 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < >>>> offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The S5 is only as good as the installer. I have seen them come off >>>>> with a string of panels on an insurance inspection I did. >>>>> >>>>> I billed them and made another note in my journal of why the only >>>>> thing that should go on a metal roof is rainwater. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 21:37:07 -0400, Hilton Dier III < >>>>> hiltondier at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I'm with Jerry Shafer on this one. S-5 clamps with rails work well >>>>> without punching holes in the metal roof. If the roof is fastened well to >>>>> beefy steel C channel it should be fine. The S-5 clamps themselves are >>>>> stronger than the roofing. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Hilton Dier III >>>>> Missisquoi River Hydro >>>>> Renewable Energy Design >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> *Will White* >> Curriculum Developer >> >> >> e: will at solarenergy.org >> w: www.solarenergy.org >> >> >> p: 802-272-3092 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> # 093006-34 >> Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change >> >> . >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From garrison.rie at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 19:07:51 2020 From: garrison.rie at gmail.com (Garrison) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 18:07:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Design Software? In-Reply-To: <007801d6a64d$7243b1e0$56cb15a0$@insoltechsolar.com> References: <007801d6a64d$7243b1e0$56cb15a0$@insoltechsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Kelly, If the application is more commercial then I would probably recommend Helioscope as well. Aurora is a great residential layout and shading program. Beyond that the functionality is a bit clunky and I’ve noticed a number of inaccuracies in some of their calculations...and a sharpie on a bar napkin would produce a better single line diagram :). Best, Garrison > On Oct 19, 2020, at 2:24 PM, Philip Lawes Insoltech wrote: > >  > Aurora > > > > > Philip N Lawes > 172 Wave St. > Laguna Beach, Ca. 92651 > Office: 949-497-6300 > Cell: 949-510-0687 > Email: Phil at Insoltechsolar.com > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kelly Larson > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 9:34 AM > To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Design Software? > > Hi y'all, > > Since I haven't been doing layout/design recently, I wonder what software I can recommend to a client. He is a newbie doing mostly commercial systems - some roof and some ground mount. The software needs to layout strings for string inverters, calc voltage drop, conductor sizes, etc, and show distances. > > Suggestions? > > Thank you in advance, > Kelly > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Kelly Larson > 707-223-3209 > Box 18094 > Reno, NV 89511 > Electrical Engineer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ > NABCEP Certified PV Installer Specialist™ > NABCEP Certified PV Commissioning & Maintenance Specialist™ > IREC Certified Master Trainer™/ PV > CA Electrical Contractor# 868189 > Solar Energy International Instructor > SolarKelly.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 19:35:39 2020 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 16:35:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mixing Outback 100 series C with old FX system In-Reply-To: <7421AE2E-15C1-414F-9D78-B2932A208800@gmail.com> References: <7421AE2E-15C1-414F-9D78-B2932A208800@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, thanks yes that is correct, it was a jumper to allow the FNDC to work. I had no trouble connecting a Mate3s to the FM100-AFCI. Brad On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 12:37 PM Jay wrote: > On page 71 there is a small note about hooking up a FNDC without an > inverter. > > It might be what Brad was mentioning. > > Jay > > > On Oct 19, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > >  > Maybe Brad is referring to the GFDI jumper or the RSS jumper? I don't know > of a jumper to activate comms with the Mate 3S. > > The former is for bonding and you remove it if you use an external GFDI, > like a Midnite GFCI in a Midnite MNDC enclosure. It's the little black wire > with 2 red spade connectors under the terminal block. > > The RSS jumper you have to make out of a scrap of wire to DIS-able the > Flexmax 100 internal RSS trigger. It goes between the yellow and purple > terminal blocks. If you don't install it, the CC assumes the RSS has been > activated. I love this one for my students, when their homework before lab > class is to *thoroughly* read the instructions and make notes! I can easily > tell if they actually did LOL. > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 8:11 AM Bradley Bassett > wrote: > >> I think there is a jumper in the FM100 that will allow the Mate3s to >> communicate with it. I don't remember off hand where it is and am not at a >> computer with that info, but maybe this will prompt a look at the manual to >> see if they mention it. >> >> Brad >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Oct 19 20:20:59 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 18:20:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mixing Outback 100 series C with old FX system In-Reply-To: <7421AE2E-15C1-414F-9D78-B2932A208800@gmail.com> References: <7421AE2E-15C1-414F-9D78-B2932A208800@gmail.com> Message-ID: We use the FM 100, but not Outback inverters.  We have one Mate 3 meter on the truck, we use it to program the controller, and then pull the meter. It holds all its programming, and this saves the customer $600.00.  They can monitor with the amp hr meter (Magnum or Trimetric) Its not the best solution, and I find it annoying that Outback's most expensive controller does not have an onboard screen like the much lower cost little FMs. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/19/20 12:55 PM, Jay wrote: > On page 71 there is a small note about hooking up a FNDC without an > inverter. > > It might be what Brad was mentioning. > > Jay > > >> On Oct 19, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Dan Fink wrote: >> >>  >> Maybe Brad is referring to the GFDI jumper or the RSS jumper? I don't >> know of a jumper to activate comms with the Mate 3S. >> >> The former is for bonding and you remove it if you use an external >> GFDI, like a Midnite GFCI in a Midnite MNDC enclosure. It's the >> little black wire with 2 red spade connectors under the terminal block. >> >> The RSS jumper you have to make out of a scrap of wire to DIS-able >> the Flexmax 100 internal RSS trigger. It goes between the yellow and >> purple terminal blocks. If you don't install it, the CC assumes the >> RSS has been activated. I love this one for my students, when their >> homework before lab class is to *thoroughly* read the instructions >> and make notes! I can easily tell if they actually did LOL. >> >> Dan Fink >> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers >> d anbob88 at gmail.com >> >> 970-672-4342 >> >> On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 8:11 AM Bradley Bassett > > wrote: >> >> I think there is a jumper in the FM100 that will allow the Mate3s >> to communicate with it. I don't remember off hand where it is and >> am not at a computer with that info, but maybe this will prompt a >> look at the manual to see if they mention it. >> >> Brad >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Oct 19 20:51:06 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 18:51:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? In-Reply-To: References: <5fd581fe-aa11-a580-ee58-6fce37c08fd5@solarray.com> <004d01d4d6cf$4206c020$c6144060$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <97eceaf5-9681-8b77-82cc-f7011bee040e@solarray.com> The notes in the NEC 2020 Handbook for article 706 clearly state that 706 only covers ESS which is an assembly of components, and that the total assembly must be listed under UL 9540. Further it states: "/A group of separate components that includes storage batteries, that is provided with support systems (racks), charge controllers, and inverters, and that does NOT have an overall listing as an ESS is a storage battery system and as such is subject to the requirements of article 480"/ and just in case someone says the notes don't matter, 706.5 says: "/Energy Storage systems shall be listed"/. So, since I have never used an actual listed ESS, I'm back to 480. Specifically, 480.7 (A) says we need a disconnect for batteries over 60 vdc (48v should be exempt) and then 480.7(B) says houses need to have an outside disconnect for the batteries labeled "Emergency Disconnect". So here's the real question:   Does 480.7(A) exempt us from 480.7(B)? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/9/19 8:08 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree with your interpretation of ESS > systems and the application of Article 706.  Yes, an ESS /could/ > provide 120/240 VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but the figures in Article > 690 show three different configurations where the output of the ESS is > not AC, and where the ESS disconnect comes before any power > electronics (like a multimode inverter, as shown in the AC and DC > coupled systems) or loads (as shown in the stand-alone system). Are > those ESS connected to other systems which utilize stored energy to > provide AC power? Yes, but the key is "connected to other systems" - > in many cases the ESS only provides DC.  In fact the definition of ESS > clearly states this - it /can/ have AC or DC output, and it /may/ > include power electronics (but may not). > > My understanding is that the 60 volt limit (which is obviously > problematic in a world where 48 VDC batteries and ESS are very common) > was inserted in order to exempt other devices that store energy (such > as UPS, or battery backup in fire alarms/exit signage/etc.) from the > 706 requirements. > > Cheers, > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > SEI Professional Services > http://www.seisolarpros.com > > > > On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt > wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a number of > my fellow inspectors and code experts. When the 2017 NEC came out, > I agreed with Mike Holt and Bill Brooks' assessment that the new > article was poorly written and did not apply to most systems being > installed today. After much discussion through my Cadmus network > of authorities, it emerged that indeed 706 apples to the typical > residential systems. > So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article 706, and > I believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM is generating AC > voltage of 120VAC or 240VAC, making the system fall under article 706. > > Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, NFPA 1, and > the IFC as applicable locally. > So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover the work we > do when systems provide or interface with 120VAC or above (making > the system operation exceeding the 60V AC trigger). > > My initial problem was believing that the article applied to a > component (the battery bank), and not the system (all components > taken together as a generator/storage system). It is an easy > misunderstanding to make. > > Hope this helps! > > -Glenn Burt > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM > To: RE-wrenches > > Cc: Bill Brooks >; Bill Brooks > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? > > Hi Everyone; > > I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized that > the newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage Systems is > only for Over 60 VDC (706.1)  Also article 480 for batteries only > requires disconnecting means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7).   I'm not > about to not have a disconnect, so now that NEC pulled battery > systems out of 690,  where do we go for guidance on normal battery > systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? > > Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like > separating off grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but it > seems us off grid installers need some more clarification. > > Thanks, > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 21:06:35 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 18:06:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? In-Reply-To: <97eceaf5-9681-8b77-82cc-f7011bee040e@solarray.com> References: <5fd581fe-aa11-a580-ee58-6fce37c08fd5@solarray.com> <004d01d4d6cf$4206c020$c6144060$@glbcc.com> <97eceaf5-9681-8b77-82cc-f7011bee040e@solarray.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Blue planet are fire and UL listed systems both on there 48 Volt and the LX flavors Jerry On Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 5:51 PM Ray wrote: > The notes in the NEC 2020 Handbook for article 706 clearly state that 706 > only covers ESS which is an assembly of components, and that the total > assembly must be listed under UL 9540. > > Further it states: "* A group of separate components that includes > storage batteries, that is provided with support systems (racks), charge > controllers, and inverters, and that does NOT have an overall listing as an > ESS is a storage battery system and as such is subject to the requirements > of article 480"* > > and just in case someone says the notes don't matter, 706.5 says: "*Energy > Storage systems shall be listed"*. > > So, since I have never used an actual listed ESS, I'm back to 480. > Specifically, 480.7 (A) says we need a disconnect for batteries over 60 vdc > (48v should be exempt) and then 480.7(B) says houses need to have an > outside disconnect for the batteries labeled "Emergency Disconnect". > > So here's the real question: Does 480.7(A) exempt us from 480.7(B)? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 3/9/19 8:08 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > > Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree with your interpretation of ESS systems > and the application of Article 706. Yes, an ESS *could* provide 120/240 > VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but the figures in Article 690 show three > different configurations where the output of the ESS is not AC, and where > the ESS disconnect comes before any power electronics (like a multimode > inverter, as shown in the AC and DC coupled systems) or loads (as shown in > the stand-alone system). Are those ESS connected to other systems which > utilize stored energy to provide AC power? Yes, but the key is "connected > to other systems" - in many cases the ESS only provides DC. In fact the > definition of ESS clearly states this - it *can* have AC or DC output, > and it *may* include power electronics (but may not). > > My understanding is that the 60 volt limit (which is obviously problematic > in a world where 48 VDC batteries and ESS are very common) was inserted in > order to exempt other devices that store energy (such as UPS, or battery > backup in fire alarms/exit signage/etc.) from the 706 requirements. > > Cheers, > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > SEI Professional Services > http://www.seisolarpros.com > > > > On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt wrote: > >> Hi Ray, >> >> This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a number of my >> fellow inspectors and code experts. When the 2017 NEC came out, I agreed >> with Mike Holt and Bill Brooks' assessment that the new article was poorly >> written and did not apply to most systems being installed today. After much >> discussion through my Cadmus network of authorities, it emerged that indeed >> 706 apples to the typical residential systems. >> So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article 706, and I >> believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM is generating AC voltage of >> 120VAC or 240VAC, making the system fall under article 706. >> >> Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, NFPA 1, and the >> IFC as applicable locally. >> So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover the work we do >> when systems provide or interface with 120VAC or above (making the system >> operation exceeding the 60V AC trigger). >> >> My initial problem was believing that the article applied to a component >> (the battery bank), and not the system (all components taken together as a >> generator/storage system). It is an easy misunderstanding to make. >> >> Hope this helps! >> >> -Glenn Burt >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf >> Of Ray >> Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Cc: Bill Brooks ; Bill Brooks > > >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? >> >> Hi Everyone; >> >> I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized that the >> newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage Systems is only for Over >> 60 VDC (706.1) Also article 480 for batteries only requires disconnecting >> means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7). I'm not about to not have a disconnect, so >> now that NEC pulled battery systems out of 690, where do we go for >> guidance on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? >> >> Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like separating off >> grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but it seems us off grid >> installers need some more clarification. >> >> Thanks, >> >> -- >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Oct 19 15:54:47 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 15:54:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof In-Reply-To: References: <08a9103c-e8ff-e375-855d-bb2098cd2c79@gmail.com> <5f14b68a943c52915fb34308986d4470@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: I didn't have the opportunity to investigate it with any forensic/scientific methodology. The clamps could have been very close to the eave, spaced too far in the corner zones, cantilevers could have been excessive... it's hard to tell. But I was surprised by the failure mode as well. It did give me confidence that the S-5's would not separate from the seams at least. FWIW it was Unirac standard rail with SolarWorld 60-cell on a 3:12 pitch at about 25 feet height, right on the beach (170 mph ultimate design wind speed, Exp D). Jason On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 3:37 PM Will White wrote: > That's a really interesting failure mode. I would have thought the > fasteners would have pulled out but I guess it makes sense that the metal > ripped. > > On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 3:19 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I would say it was the metal itself. It was torn, so the clips that hold >> the metal to the roof held, at least long enough for the metal to tear. It >> is completely plausible that the point load was too high from too few >> clamps. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 8:16 AM Will White wrote: >> >>> It's interesting that you experienced this as I've always told customers >>> that the roof will come off the building with the array attached before the >>> array comes off the metal roof. Sounds like the issue was with the >>> attachment (or lack of) between the roof and the building. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Will >>> >>> -- >>> *Will White* >>> Curriculum Developer >>> >>> e: will at solarenergy.org >>> w: www.solarenergy.org >>> p: 802-272-3092 >>> >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> # 093006-34 >>> Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change >>> . >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 5:41 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I would add that S-5s are only as good as the roof. We saw a large >>>> system (not ours) that ripped the metal right off the roof during Hurricane >>>> Irma. It literally tore the meta. The panels, rails, and S-5s were still >>>> connected, sitting on the ground with chunks of metal roofing still >>>> attached to the S-5s. It was quite the mangled mess. We salvaged quite a >>>> bit, but the client built a ground rack after this. >>>> >>>> To be fair, this was a totally exposed beachfront home. I don't know >>>> what the spacing was on the clamps, either. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:00 PM Jerry Shafer >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Wrenches >>>>> I think what you said is totally true,"its only as good as the >>>>> instalation" but here is where l differ, S-5's if installed correctly are >>>>> no different than anything else installed on the roof. >>>>> Jerry >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 8:42 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < >>>>> offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The S5 is only as good as the installer. I have seen them come off >>>>>> with a string of panels on an insurance inspection I did. >>>>>> >>>>>> I billed them and made another note in my journal of why the only >>>>>> thing that should go on a metal roof is rainwater. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 21:37:07 -0400, Hilton Dier III < >>>>>> hiltondier at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm with Jerry Shafer on this one. S-5 clamps with rails work well >>>>>> without punching holes in the metal roof. If the roof is fastened well to >>>>>> beefy steel C channel it should be fine. The S-5 clamps themselves are >>>>>> stronger than the roofing. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Hilton Dier III >>>>>> Missisquoi River Hydro >>>>>> Renewable Energy Design >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Oct 19 23:34:07 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 21:34:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? In-Reply-To: References: <5fd581fe-aa11-a580-ee58-6fce37c08fd5@solarray.com> <004d01d4d6cf$4206c020$c6144060$@glbcc.com> <97eceaf5-9681-8b77-82cc-f7011bee040e@solarray.com> Message-ID: I've used Blue Planet, so I guess I have used an actual UL listed ESS, even though they don't include the charge controller or inverter.  I knew they were UL, but I double checked and it is the UL 9540 standard mentioned in 706. So in this case, we could ignore 480, but are held to 706.  Regardless of 480 or 706, both are possibly requiring the outside remote disconnect.  Besides Midnite's remote trip breakers, and the dreaded Bird House, what other options are there to meet this new requirement?   Can the Blue Planet be tripped remotely? and still my initial question: Under 480.7, are batteries below 60v still required to have the remote disconnect?  They are exempted from having a disconnect at all in 480.7(A)......quite confusing. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/19/20 7:06 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > Blue planet are fire and UL listed systems both on there 48 Volt and > the LX flavors > Jerry > > On Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 5:51 PM Ray > wrote: > > The notes in the NEC 2020 Handbook for article 706 clearly state > that 706 only covers ESS which is an assembly of components, and > that the total assembly must be listed under UL 9540. > > Further it states: "/A group of separate components that includes > storage batteries, that is provided with support systems (racks), > charge controllers, and inverters, and that does NOT have an > overall listing as an ESS is a storage battery system and as such > is subject to the requirements of article 480"/ > > and just in case someone says the notes don't matter, 706.5 says: > "/Energy Storage systems shall be listed"/. > > So, since I have never used an actual listed ESS, I'm back to 480. > Specifically, 480.7 (A) says we need a disconnect for batteries > over 60 vdc (48v should be exempt) and then 480.7(B) says houses > need to have an outside disconnect for the batteries labeled > "Emergency Disconnect". > > So here's the real question:   Does 480.7(A) exempt us from 480.7(B)? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 3/9/19 8:08 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: >> Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree with your interpretation of >> ESS systems and the application of Article 706.  Yes, an ESS >> /could/ provide 120/240 VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but the figures >> in Article 690 show three different configurations where the >> output of the ESS is not AC, and where the ESS disconnect comes >> before any power electronics (like a multimode inverter, as shown >> in the AC and DC coupled systems) or loads (as shown in the >> stand-alone system). Are those ESS connected to other systems >> which utilize stored energy to provide AC power? Yes, but the key >> is "connected to other systems" - in many cases the ESS only >> provides DC.  In fact the definition of ESS clearly states this - >> it /can/ have AC or DC output, and it /may/ include power >> electronics (but may not). >> >> My understanding is that the 60 volt limit (which is obviously >> problematic in a world where 48 VDC batteries and ESS are very >> common) was inserted in order to exempt other devices that store >> energy (such as UPS, or battery backup in fire alarms/exit >> signage/etc.) from the 706 requirements. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Brian Mehalic >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >> (520) 204-6639 >> >> Solar Energy International >> http://www.solarenergy.org >> >> SEI Professional Services >> http://www.seisolarpros.com >> >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt > > wrote: >> >> Hi Ray, >> >> This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a number >> of my fellow inspectors and code experts. When the 2017 NEC >> came out, I agreed with Mike Holt and Bill Brooks' assessment >> that the new article was poorly written and did not apply to >> most systems being installed today. After much discussion >> through my Cadmus network of authorities, it emerged that >> indeed 706 apples to the typical residential systems. >> So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article 706, >> and I believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM is >> generating AC voltage of 120VAC or 240VAC, making the system >> fall under article 706. >> >> Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, NFPA >> 1, and the IFC as applicable locally. >> So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover the >> work we do when systems provide or interface with 120VAC or >> above (making the system operation exceeding the 60V AC trigger). >> >> My initial problem was believing that the article applied to >> a component (the battery bank), and not the system (all >> components taken together as a generator/storage system). It >> is an easy misunderstanding to make. >> >> Hope this helps! >> >> -Glenn Burt >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches > > On Behalf >> Of Ray >> Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM >> To: RE-wrenches > > >> Cc: Bill Brooks > >; Bill Brooks >> > >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? >> >> Hi Everyone; >> >> I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized >> that the newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage >> Systems is only for Over 60 VDC (706.1)  Also article 480 for >> batteries only requires disconnecting means over 60 VDC ?! >> (480.7).   I'm not about to not have a disconnect, so now >> that NEC pulled battery systems out of 690,  where do we go >> for guidance on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? >> >> Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like >> separating off grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but >> it seems us off grid installers need some more clarification. >> >> Thanks, >> >> -- >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Tue Oct 20 01:33:03 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 22:33:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? In-Reply-To: References: <5fd581fe-aa11-a580-ee58-6fce37c08fd5@solarray.com> <004d01d4d6cf$4206c020$c6144060$@glbcc.com> <97eceaf5-9681-8b77-82cc-f7011bee040e@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray, Per NEC 480 batteries below 48 volts didn't need a readily accessible disconnect within site of the batteries. That's unchanged in the 2020 Code, you don't have to have a readily accessible disconnect within site of the batteries. That's a good thing considering the environment near lead acid batteries. A disconnect switch still isn't required in the 48-volt battery room. Yes, if you put a 48-volt battery in a one or two-family dwelling, an outside (remote) emergency disconnect is required. That is going to be a pain that may add hundreds of dollars to the cost of small off-grid systems. You might get away with a mushroom switch and a 24-volt tap on the batteries to activate a remote trip breaker. But considering that it is a fire-safety related circuit it is probably best to spend the money for the bird box. At the very least 480.7(B) should make off-grid folks think about using a power shed. The power shed is not a dwelling so 2020 NEC 480.7(B) doesn't apply. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 10/19/2020 8:34 PM, Ray wrote: > > I've used Blue Planet, so I guess I have used an actual UL listed ESS, > even though they don't include the charge controller or inverter.  I > knew they were UL, but I double checked and it is the UL 9540 standard > mentioned in 706. So in this case, we could ignore 480, but are held > to 706.  Regardless of 480 or 706, both are possibly requiring the > outside remote disconnect. Besides Midnite's remote trip breakers, and > the dreaded Bird House, what other options are there to meet this new > requirement?   Can the Blue Planet be tripped remotely? > > and still my initial question: > > Under 480.7, are batteries below 60v still required to have the remote > disconnect?  They are exempted from having a disconnect at all in > 480.7(A)......quite confusing. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 10/19/20 7:06 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >> Wrenches >> Blue planet are fire and UL listed systems both on there 48 Volt and >> the LX flavors >> Jerry >> >> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 5:51 PM Ray > > wrote: >> >> The notes in the NEC 2020 Handbook for article 706 clearly state >> that 706 only covers ESS which is an assembly of components, and >> that the total assembly must be listed under UL 9540. >> >> Further it states: "/A group of separate components that includes >> storage batteries, that is provided with support systems (racks), >> charge controllers, and inverters, and that does NOT have an >> overall listing as an ESS is a storage battery system and as such >> is subject to the requirements of article 480"/ >> >> and just in case someone says the notes don't matter, 706.5 says: >> "/Energy Storage systems shall be listed"/. >> >> So, since I have never used an actual listed ESS, I'm back to >> 480. Specifically, 480.7 (A) says we need a disconnect for >> batteries over 60 vdc (48v should be exempt) and then 480.7(B) >> says houses need to have an outside disconnect for the batteries >> labeled "Emergency Disconnect". >> >> So here's the real question:   Does 480.7(A) exempt us from >> 480.7(B)? >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 3/9/19 8:08 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: >>> Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree with your interpretation of >>> ESS systems and the application of Article 706.  Yes, an ESS >>> /could/ provide 120/240 VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but the >>> figures in Article 690 show three different configurations where >>> the output of the ESS is not AC, and where the ESS disconnect >>> comes before any power electronics (like a multimode inverter, >>> as shown in the AC and DC coupled systems) or loads (as shown in >>> the stand-alone system). Are those ESS connected to other >>> systems which utilize stored energy to provide AC power? Yes, >>> but the key is "connected to other systems" - in many cases the >>> ESS only provides DC.  In fact the definition of ESS clearly >>> states this - it /can/ have AC or DC output, and it /may/ >>> include power electronics (but may not). >>> >>> My understanding is that the 60 volt limit (which is obviously >>> problematic in a world where 48 VDC batteries and ESS are very >>> common) was inserted in order to exempt other devices that store >>> energy (such as UPS, or battery backup in fire alarms/exit >>> signage/etc.) from the 706 requirements. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Brian Mehalic >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >>> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >>> (520) 204-6639 >>> >>> Solar Energy International >>> http://www.solarenergy.org >>> >>> SEI Professional Services >>> http://www.seisolarpros.com >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt >> > wrote: >>> >>> Hi Ray, >>> >>> This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a >>> number of my fellow inspectors and code experts. When the >>> 2017 NEC came out, I agreed with Mike Holt and Bill Brooks' >>> assessment that the new article was poorly written and did >>> not apply to most systems being installed today. After much >>> discussion through my Cadmus network of authorities, it >>> emerged that indeed 706 apples to the typical residential >>> systems. >>> So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article >>> 706, and I believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM is >>> generating AC voltage of 120VAC or 240VAC, making the system >>> fall under article 706. >>> >>> Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, NFPA >>> 1, and the IFC as applicable locally. >>> So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover the >>> work we do when systems provide or interface with 120VAC or >>> above (making the system operation exceeding the 60V AC >>> trigger). >>> >>> My initial problem was believing that the article applied to >>> a component (the battery bank), and not the system (all >>> components taken together as a generator/storage system). It >>> is an easy misunderstanding to make. >>> >>> Hope this helps! >>> >>> -Glenn Burt >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RE-wrenches >> > On >>> Behalf Of Ray >>> Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches >> > >>> Cc: Bill Brooks >> >; Bill Brooks >>> > >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? >>> >>> Hi Everyone; >>> >>> I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized >>> that the newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage >>> Systems is only for Over 60 VDC (706.1)  Also article 480 >>> for batteries only requires disconnecting means over 60 VDC >>> ?! (480.7).   I'm not about to not have a disconnect, so now >>> that NEC pulled battery systems out of 690, where do we go >>> for guidance on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? >>> >>> Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like >>> separating off grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but >>> it seems us off grid installers need some more clarification. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> -- >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 07:24:49 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 07:24:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cedar Shake roofs Message-ID: Hi all, Does anyone have any experience mounting on a roof with cedar shakes. I'm most interested in figuring out how you can avoid breaking half the roof apart and still get trail and panels mounted and wired. Thanks for any ideas, Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 07:31:00 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 07:31:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cedar Shake roofs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howie, I’ve had luck with the Quick Mount attachment made specifically for cedar shake. More tinker involved than a regular asphalt roof, but a good option to make the job work. https://www.quickmountpv.com/products/shake-mount.html Hope this helps. -Chris On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 7:25 AM Howie Michaelson wrote: > Hi all, > Does anyone have any experience mounting on a roof with cedar shakes. I'm > most interested in figuring out how you can avoid breaking half the roof > apart and still get trail and panels mounted and wired. > Thanks for any ideas, > Howie > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Oct 20 08:51:25 2020 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 08:51:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cedar Shake roofs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This can be a tricky installation as the shingle has a bevel that asphalt does not.  Quickmount just uses a larger flashing piece to my memory, which is not very helpful.  Chris Warfel On 10/20/2020 7:24 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > Hi all, > Does anyone have any experience mounting on a roof with cedar shakes. > I'm most interested in figuring out how you can avoid breaking half > the roof apart and still get trail and panels mounted and wired. > Thanks for any ideas, > Howie > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Ken at commonwealthsolar.com Tue Oct 20 09:43:11 2020 From: Ken at commonwealthsolar.com (Ken Schaal) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 09:43:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cedar Shake roofs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My experience here in Virginia goes back to the last century- -- ouch! Thermal panels mounted with space under. Squirrels chewed a big hole all the way thru the roof into the attic ! So many other issues affecting life span in addition to walking on them. Quality of shingle, are they installed to be able to dry, age to date....?? Do you really need the job?? Is it worth it????? Ken Schaal CommonWealth Solar On Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 8:51 AM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > This can be a tricky installation as the shingle has a bevel that asphalt > does not. Quickmount just uses a larger flashing piece to my memory, which > is not very helpful. Chris Warfel > On 10/20/2020 7:24 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > > Hi all, > Does anyone have any experience mounting on a roof with cedar shakes. I'm > most interested in figuring out how you can avoid breaking half the roof > apart and still get trail and panels mounted and wired. > Thanks for any ideas, > Howie > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 09:24:01 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 07:24:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cedar Shake roofs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Howie Like clay tile there are a few things to consider Damage to the shakes not under the modules during installation, walking all around etc. if they are old and brittle it’s going to be a huge problem as they will break quite easily. And like a clay tile roof, you might consider removing the shakes under the solar and installing a new substrate making the flashing easier, cheaper, faster. And probably I’d get the roofer involved to see what they recommend or require for warranty purposes. Good luck Jay > On Oct 20, 2020, at 6:51 AM, Christopher Warfel wrote: > >  > This can be a tricky installation as the shingle has a bevel that asphalt does not. Quickmount just uses a larger flashing piece to my memory, which is not very helpful. Chris Warfel > > On 10/20/2020 7:24 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: >> Hi all, >> Does anyone have any experience mounting on a roof with cedar shakes. I'm most interested in figuring out how you can avoid breaking half the roof apart and still get trail and panels mounted and wired. >> Thanks for any ideas, >> Howie >> Howie Michaelson >> Sun Catcher >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service >> 802-272-0004 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Oct 20 09:58:34 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 06:58:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cedar Shake roofs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Howie, We bump into wood shake roofs from time to time in the Bay Area. I second what others have said. In particular, make sure the roof is not too old. We have a cutoff of 10 years old or less in order to consider self-waterproofing the install. Otherwise, we insist on roofer engagement. The problem with an old wood shake roof, or really any tile roof for that matter, is that the underlayment (felt paper) starts to fall apart and the whole job becomes a big mess once you start working on the roof. Even if you do a good job installing the Quickmount shake mounts, the failed underlayment will result in unpredictable leaks. Bad news. Old shake shingles get brittle too. Anyway, here's a video by Quickmount on their shake mounts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVo30_sr3fY August On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 4:25 AM Howie Michaelson wrote: > Hi all, > Does anyone have any experience mounting on a roof with cedar shakes. I'm > most interested in figuring out how you can avoid breaking half the roof > apart and still get trail and panels mounted and wired. > Thanks for any ideas, > Howie > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Oct 20 11:50:31 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 08:50:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?NEC_for_Batteries_=3C_60v_=3F=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <5fd581fe-aa11-a580-ee58-6fce37c08fd5@solarray.com> <004d01d4d6cf$4206c020$c6144060$@glbcc.com> <97eceaf5-9681-8b77-82cc-f7011bee040e@solarray.com> Message-ID: <5daa715ad07949ac8f05a48c17ca4624@127.0.0.1> Thanks Kent, A question, most of the Sierra AHJ's only care, and that is rare, that there is a remote power off like Outback and Schneider have already. I understand it is not a battery disco, and even though there is one in these systems, what is your response please? I mostly dislike power sheds as people need an excuse to go there and observe. I mostly use a garage or outside house wall to build a bat room. Appreciate your thoughts. Insurance issues are not as important these days as many of us no longer can get it Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 22:33:03 -0700, Kent Osterberg wrote: Ray, Per NEC 480 batteries below 48 volts didn't need a readily accessible disconnect within site of the batteries. That's unchanged in the 2020 Code, you don't have to have a readily accessible disconnect within site of the batteries. That's a good thing considering the environment near lead acid batteries. A disconnect switch still isn't required in the 48-volt battery room. Yes, if you put a 48-volt battery in a one or two-family dwelling, an outside (remote) emergency disconnect is required. That is going to be a pain that may add hundreds of dollars to the cost of small off-grid systems. You might get away with a mushroom switch and a 24-volt tap on the batteries to activate a remote trip breaker. But considering that it is a fire-safety related circuit it is probably best to spend the money for the bird box. At the very least 480.7(B) should make off-grid folks think about using a power shed. The power shed is not a dwelling so 2020 NEC 480.7(B) doesn't apply. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 10/19/2020 8:34 PM, Ray wrote: I've used Blue Planet, so I guess I have used an actual UL listed ESS, even though they don't include the charge controller or inverter. I knew they were UL, but I double checked and it is the UL 9540 standard mentioned in 706. So in this case, we could ignore 480, but are held to 706. Regardless of 480 or 706, both are possibly requiring the outside remote disconnect. Besides Midnite's remote trip breakers, and the dreaded Bird House, what other options are there to meet this new requirement? Can the Blue Planet be tripped remotely? and still my initial question: Under 480.7, are batteries below 60v still required to have the remote disconnect? They are exempted from having a disconnect at all in 480.7(A)......quite confusing. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/19/20 7:06 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Blue planet are fire and UL listed systems both on there 48 Volt and the LX flavors Jerry On Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 5:51 PM Ray wrote: The notes in the NEC 2020 Handbook for article 706 clearly state that 706 only covers ESS which is an assembly of components, and that the total assembly must be listed under UL 9540. Further it states: "_ A group of separate components that includes storage batteries, that is provided with support systems (racks), charge controllers, and inverters, and that does NOT have an overall listing as an ESS is a storage battery system and as such is subject to the requirements of article 480"_ and just in case someone says the notes don't matter, 706.5 says: "_Energy Storage systems shall be listed"_. So, since I have never used an actual listed ESS, I'm back to 480. Specifically, 480.7 (A) says we need a disconnect for batteries over 60 vdc (48v should be exempt) and then 480.7(B) says houses need to have an outside disconnect for the batteries labeled "Emergency Disconnect". So here's the real question: Does 480.7(A) exempt us from 480.7(B)? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/9/19 8:08 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree with your interpretation of ESS systems and the application of Article 706. Yes, an ESS _could_ provide 120/240 VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but the figures in Article 690 show three different configurations where the output of the ESS is not AC, and where the ESS disconnect comes before any power electronics (like a multimode inverter, as shown in the AC and DC coupled systems) or loads (as shown in the stand-alone system). Are those ESS connected to other systems which utilize stored energy to provide AC power? Yes, but the key is "connected to other systems" - in many cases the ESS only provides DC. In fact the definition of ESS clearly states this - it _can_ have AC or DC output, and it _may_ include power electronics (but may not). My understanding is that the 60 volt limit (which is obviously problematic in a world where 48 VDC batteries and ESS are very common) was inserted in order to exempt other devices that store energy (such as UPS, or battery backup in fire alarms/exit signage/etc.) from the 706 requirements. Cheers, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional(tm) R031508-59 National Electrical Code(R) CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org [4] SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com [5] On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt wrote: Hi Ray, This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a number of my fellow inspectors and code experts. When the 2017 NEC came out, I agreed with Mike Holt and Bill Brooks' assessment that the new article was poorly written and did not apply to most systems being installed today. After much discussion through my Cadmus network of authorities, it emerged that indeed 706 apples to the typical residential systems. So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article 706, and I believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM is generating AC voltage of 120VAC or 240VAC, making the system fall under article 706. Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, NFPA 1, and the IFC as applicable locally. So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover the work we do when systems provide or interface with 120VAC or above (making the system operation exceeding the 60V AC trigger). My initial problem was believing that the article applied to a component (the battery bank), and not the system (all components taken together as a generator/storage system). It is an easy misunderstanding to make. Hope this helps! -Glenn Burt -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Bill Brooks ; Bill Brooks Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? Hi Everyone; I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized that the newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage Systems is only for Over 60 VDC (706.1) Also article 480 for batteries only requires disconnecting means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7). I'm not about to not have a disconnect, so now that NEC pulled battery systems out of 690, where do we go for guidance on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like separating off grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but it seems us off grid installers need some more clarification. Thanks, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [13] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [15] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [18] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [19] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [20] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [21] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [22] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [23] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [24] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [25] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [26] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [27] There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-cry.gif Type: image/gif Size: 329 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Tue Oct 20 12:09:26 2020 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 10:09:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cedar Shake roofs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78CBD38D-CDA1-45A1-A500-827DC56E22DA@skyfireenergy.com> QuickMount flashings for shake 👍 Be careful when sliding the flashing in and make sure you get it under the underlay paper. If you’re not careful you will hit the paper and bunch it up and it it a bugger to flatten out the paper if that happens. The uneven surface is something you need to deal with. High spots on some shakes will require aggressive sanding (disc) and/or a chisel. ANY moisture will make the roof VERY slippery, just a heads up. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 > On Oct 20, 2020, at 5:24 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > > Hi all, > Does anyone have any experience mounting on a roof with cedar shakes. I'm most interested in figuring out how you can avoid breaking half the roof apart and still get trail and panels mounted and wired. > Thanks for any ideas, > Howie > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Tue Oct 20 13:05:47 2020 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (SES) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 10:05:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cedar Shake roofs In-Reply-To: <78CBD38D-CDA1-45A1-A500-827DC56E22DA@skyfireenergy.com> References: <78CBD38D-CDA1-45A1-A500-827DC56E22DA@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <50FE2590-2740-405F-9A32-E9270E348ECC@yahoo.com> I don’t think it is a good idea to install systems on shake for almost too many reasons to list. I suggest re-roofing that section of roof with almost anything else. If only reroofing that section the solar is going on in order to prepare the roof for the solar it may qualify for the ITC. But that would be between you, the client, the great spirit and the IRS. Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future. 503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > On Oct 20, 2020, at 9:09 AM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > QuickMount flashings for shake 👍 > Be careful when sliding the flashing in and make sure you get it under the underlay paper. If you’re not careful you will hit the paper and bunch it up and it it a bugger to flatten out the paper if that happens. > The uneven surface is something you need to deal with. High spots on some shakes will require aggressive sanding (disc) and/or a chisel. > ANY moisture will make the roof VERY slippery, just a heads up. > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy > 780-906-7807 > >> On Oct 20, 2020, at 5:24 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> Does anyone have any experience mounting on a roof with cedar shakes. I'm most interested in figuring out how you can avoid breaking half the roof apart and still get trail and panels mounted and wired. >> Thanks for any ideas, >> Howie >> Howie Michaelson >> Sun Catcher >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service >> 802-272-0004 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 13:49:22 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 10:49:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cedar Shake roofs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches We will not go over a shake roof, we will only strip it and comp the area of the array and shake over the comp AKA picture frame it in. Leaving the shake in place is asking for trouble down the road. Jerry On Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 4:25 AM Howie Michaelson wrote: > Hi all, > Does anyone have any experience mounting on a roof with cedar shakes. I'm > most interested in figuring out how you can avoid breaking half the roof > apart and still get trail and panels mounted and wired. > Thanks for any ideas, > Howie > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Oct 20 14:24:59 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 12:24:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? In-Reply-To: <5daa715ad07949ac8f05a48c17ca4624@127.0.0.1> References: <5fd581fe-aa11-a580-ee58-6fce37c08fd5@solarray.com> <004d01d4d6cf$4206c020$c6144060$@glbcc.com> <97eceaf5-9681-8b77-82cc-f7011bee040e@solarray.com> <5daa715ad07949ac8f05a48c17ca4624@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Interesting idea: shutting down the inverter should actually be preferable to a battery disco, since its possible to disconnect the battery and still have an inverter operate array direct if the loads are close to the array output.  I've seen it take several minutes for the inverter to shut off sometimes. This whole concept needs to be left in the oven longer to get the verbage right.  I believe the idea is to have power off to the distribution circuits in the house, but NEC is having a really hard time just saying that.  Who cares if the battery is still connected to the inverter; there will always be a few feet of battery cable energized, regardless of the remote disconnect scheme.  Seems much easier to shut down the inverter, and then have a clause covering DC distribution for those Luddites still doing that. Overall, I have severe misgivings about this whole idea.  While it sounds good at first, you must consider that a failure of the remote system, or a wacky neighbor can shut off the entire house including refrigeration and heat.  The customer could come back to rotten food and frozen pipes.  We need to have a more holistic approach that balances fire fighter safety with home owner safety.  Article 445 Generators, exempts generators under 15 kW. It seems something similar for off grid would be appropriate. How many times has this actually been a problem? or is this possibly just a high tech solution in search of an imagined problem? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/20/20 9:50 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Thanks Kent, > > A question, most of the Sierra AHJ's only care, and that is rare, that > there is a remote power off like Outback and Schneider have already. I > understand it is not a battery disco, and even though there is one in > these systems, what is your response please? > > I mostly dislike power sheds as people need an excuse to go there and > observe. I mostly use a garage or outside house wall to build a bat > room. Appreciate your thoughts. Insurance issues are not as important > these days as many of us no longer can get itCry > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 22:33:03 -0700, Kent Osterberg > wrote: > >> Ray, >> >> Per NEC 480 batteries below 48 volts didn't need a readily accessible >> disconnect within site of the batteries. That's unchanged in the 2020 >> Code, you don't have to have a readily accessible disconnect within >> site of the batteries. That's a good thing considering the >> environment near lead acid batteries. A disconnect switch still isn't >> required in the 48-volt battery room. >> >> Yes, if you put a 48-volt battery in a one or two-family dwelling, an >> outside (remote) emergency disconnect is required. That is going to >> be a pain that may add hundreds of dollars to the cost of small >> off-grid systems. You might get away with a mushroom switch and a >> 24-volt tap on the batteries to activate a remote trip breaker. But >> considering that it is a fire-safety related circuit it is probably >> best to spend the money for the bird box. >> >> At the very least 480.7(B) should make off-grid folks think about >> using a power shed. The power shed is not a dwelling so 2020 NEC >> 480.7(B) doesn't apply. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> >> On 10/19/2020 8:34 PM, Ray wrote: >>> >>> I've used Blue Planet, so I guess I have used an actual UL listed >>> ESS, even though they don't include the charge controller or >>> inverter.  I knew they were UL, but I double checked and it is the >>> UL 9540 standard mentioned in 706. So in this case, we could ignore >>> 480, but are held to 706. Regardless of 480 or 706, both are >>> possibly requiring the outside remote disconnect.  Besides Midnite's >>> remote trip breakers, and the dreaded Bird House, what other options >>> are there to meet this new requirement?   Can the Blue Planet be >>> tripped remotely? >>> >>> and still my initial question: >>> >>> Under 480.7, are batteries below 60v still required to have the >>> remote disconnect?  They are exempted from having a disconnect at >>> all in 480.7(A)......quite confusing. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> On 10/19/20 7:06 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>>> Wrenches >>>> Blue planet are fire and UL listed systems both on there 48 Volt >>>> and the LX flavors >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 5:51 PM Ray >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> The notes in the NEC 2020 Handbook for article 706 clearly >>>> state that 706 only covers ESS which is an assembly of >>>> components, and that the total assembly must be listed under UL >>>> 9540. >>>> >>>> Further it states: "/A group of separate components that >>>> includes storage batteries, that is provided with support >>>> systems (racks), charge controllers, and inverters, and that >>>> does NOT have an overall listing as an ESS is a storage battery >>>> system and as such is subject to the requirements of article 480"/ >>>> >>>> and just in case someone says the notes don't matter, 706.5 >>>> says: "/Energy Storage systems shall be listed"/. >>>> >>>> So, since I have never used an actual listed ESS, I'm back to >>>> 480. Specifically, 480.7 (A) says we need a disconnect for >>>> batteries over 60 vdc (48v should be exempt) and then 480.7(B) >>>> says houses need to have an outside disconnect for the >>>> batteries labeled "Emergency Disconnect". >>>> >>>> So here's the real question:   Does 480.7(A) exempt us from >>>> 480.7(B)? >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>> >>>> On 3/9/19 8:08 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: >>>>> Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree with your interpretation of >>>>> ESS systems and the application of Article 706.  Yes, an ESS >>>>> /could/ provide 120/240 VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but the >>>>> figures in Article 690 show three different configurations >>>>> where the output of the ESS is not AC, and where the ESS >>>>> disconnect comes before any power electronics (like a >>>>> multimode inverter, as shown in the AC and DC coupled systems) >>>>> or loads (as shown in the stand-alone system). Are those ESS >>>>> connected to other systems which utilize stored energy to >>>>> provide AC power? Yes, but the key is "connected to other >>>>> systems" - in many cases the ESS only provides DC.  In fact >>>>> the definition of ESS clearly states this - it /can/ have AC >>>>> or DC output, and it /may/ include power electronics (but may >>>>> not). >>>>> My understanding is that the 60 volt limit (which is obviously >>>>> problematic in a world where 48 VDC batteries and ESS are very >>>>> common) was inserted in order to exempt other devices that >>>>> store energy (such as UPS, or battery backup in fire >>>>> alarms/exit signage/etc.) from the 706 requirements. >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Brian Mehalic >>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >>>>> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >>>>> (520) 204-6639 >>>>> Solar Energy International >>>>> http://www.solarenergy.org >>>>> SEI Professional Services >>>>> http://www.seisolarpros.com >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Ray, >>>>> >>>>> This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a >>>>> number of my fellow inspectors and code experts. When the >>>>> 2017 NEC came out, I agreed with Mike Holt and Bill >>>>> Brooks' assessment that the new article was poorly written >>>>> and did not apply to most systems being installed today. >>>>> After much discussion through my Cadmus network of >>>>> authorities, it emerged that indeed 706 apples to the >>>>> typical residential systems. >>>>> So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article >>>>> 706, and I believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM >>>>> is generating AC voltage of 120VAC or 240VAC, making the >>>>> system fall under article 706. >>>>> >>>>> Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, >>>>> NFPA 1, and the IFC as applicable locally. >>>>> So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover the >>>>> work we do when systems provide or interface with 120VAC >>>>> or above (making the system operation exceeding the 60V AC >>>>> trigger). >>>>> >>>>> My initial problem was believing that the article applied >>>>> to a component (the battery bank), and not the system (all >>>>> components taken together as a generator/storage system). >>>>> It is an easy misunderstanding to make. >>>>> >>>>> Hope this helps! >>>>> >>>>> -Glenn Burt >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: RE-wrenches >>>>> >>>> > On >>>>> Behalf Of Ray >>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM >>>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>> > >>>>> Cc: Bill Brooks >>>> >; Bill Brooks >>>>> > >>>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? >>>>> >>>>> Hi Everyone; >>>>> >>>>> I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just >>>>> realized that the newly created article 706 covering >>>>> Energy Storage Systems is only for Over 60 VDC (706.1)  >>>>> Also article 480 for batteries only requires disconnecting >>>>> means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7).   I'm not about to not have >>>>> a disconnect, so now that NEC pulled battery systems out >>>>> of 690,  where do we go for guidance on normal battery >>>>> systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? >>>>> >>>>> Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like >>>>> separating off grid systems into articles 706, and 710, >>>>> but it seems us off grid installers need some more >>>>> clarification. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Ray Walters >>>>> Remote Solar >>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>>> work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-cry.gif Type: image/gif Size: 329 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Tue Oct 20 20:18:37 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 17:18:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? In-Reply-To: References: <5fd581fe-aa11-a580-ee58-6fce37c08fd5@solarray.com> <004d01d4d6cf$4206c020$c6144060$@glbcc.com> <97eceaf5-9681-8b77-82cc-f7011bee040e@solarray.com> <5daa715ad07949ac8f05a48c17ca4624@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <8262cba5-64fd-9ac1-269d-7b6824a5d1d6@coveoregon.com> I agree, Ray. Shutting down the inverter's ac output and the PV array is sufficient to make a battery based system about as safe as possible for firefighters. That is probably what was wanted when the code was revised to require an outside battery disconnect. Unfortunately, the local AHJ may not see it that way. But if the AHJ will agree to it the remote inverter shutdown is an easy way to go. I like the way Schneider has implemented remote power off in the XW series, once the remote shut off is tripped the inverter must be manually reset. I don't believe it is done that way in the Outback inverters which leaves open the question: can the power come back on if the remote off circuit is compromised. Well, it can't if there is a remotely tripped breaker used as a disconnect. The issue of security for outside disconnects will be a major problem that the 2020 code has created. Its not just renewable energy systems in that situation. All new utility services have the same requirement. Anyone having a beef with their neighbor can shut off their power. Best if you wait until they are on vacation... Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 10/20/2020 11:24 AM, Ray wrote: > > Interesting idea: shutting down the inverter should actually be > preferable to a battery disco, since its possible to disconnect the > battery and still have an inverter operate array direct if the loads > are close to the array output.  I've seen it take several minutes for > the inverter to shut off sometimes. > > This whole concept needs to be left in the oven longer to get the > verbage right.  I believe the idea is to have power off to the > distribution circuits in the house, but NEC is having a really hard > time just saying that.  Who cares if the battery is still connected to > the inverter; there will always be a few feet of battery cable > energized, regardless of the remote disconnect scheme.  Seems much > easier to shut down the inverter, and then have a clause covering DC > distribution for those Luddites still doing that. > > Overall, I have severe misgivings about this whole idea.  While it > sounds good at first, you must consider that a failure of the remote > system, or a wacky neighbor can shut off the entire house including > refrigeration and heat.  The customer could come back to rotten food > and frozen pipes.  We need to have a more holistic approach that > balances fire fighter safety with home owner safety.  Article 445 > Generators, exempts generators under 15 kW.  It seems something > similar for off grid would be appropriate. > > How many times has this actually been a problem? or is this possibly > just a high tech solution in search of an imagined problem? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 10/20/20 9:50 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> >> Thanks Kent, >> >> A question, most of the Sierra AHJ's only care, and that is rare, >> that there is a remote power off like Outback and Schneider have >> already. I understand it is not a battery disco, and even though >> there is one in these systems, what is your response please? >> >> I mostly dislike power sheds as people need an excuse to go there and >> observe. I mostly use a garage or outside house wall to build a bat >> room. Appreciate your thoughts. Insurance issues are not as important >> these days as many of us no longer can get itCry >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 22:33:03 -0700, Kent Osterberg >> wrote: >> >>> Ray, >>> >>> Per NEC 480 batteries below 48 volts didn't need a readily >>> accessible disconnect within site of the batteries. That's unchanged >>> in the 2020 Code, you don't have to have a readily accessible >>> disconnect within site of the batteries. That's a good thing >>> considering the environment near lead acid batteries. A disconnect >>> switch still isn't required in the 48-volt battery room. >>> >>> Yes, if you put a 48-volt battery in a one or two-family dwelling, >>> an outside (remote) emergency disconnect is required. That is going >>> to be a pain that may add hundreds of dollars to the cost of small >>> off-grid systems. You might get away with a mushroom switch and a >>> 24-volt tap on the batteries to activate a remote trip breaker. But >>> considering that it is a fire-safety related circuit it is probably >>> best to spend the money for the bird box. >>> >>> At the very least 480.7(B) should make off-grid folks think about >>> using a power shed. The power shed is not a dwelling so 2020 NEC >>> 480.7(B) doesn't apply. >>> >>> Kent Osterberg >>> Blue Mountain Solar >>> >>> >>> On 10/19/2020 8:34 PM, Ray wrote: >>>> >>>> I've used Blue Planet, so I guess I have used an actual UL listed >>>> ESS, even though they don't include the charge controller or >>>> inverter.  I knew they were UL, but I double checked and it is the >>>> UL 9540 standard mentioned in 706. So in this case, we could ignore >>>> 480, but are held to 706.  Regardless of 480 or 706, both are >>>> possibly requiring the outside remote disconnect.  Besides >>>> Midnite's remote trip breakers, and the dreaded Bird House, what >>>> other options are there to meet this new requirement?   Can the >>>> Blue Planet be tripped remotely? >>>> >>>> and still my initial question: >>>> >>>> Under 480.7, are batteries below 60v still required to have the >>>> remote disconnect?  They are exempted from having a disconnect at >>>> all in 480.7(A)......quite confusing. >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>> On 10/19/20 7:06 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>>>> Wrenches >>>>> Blue planet are fire and UL listed systems both on there 48 Volt >>>>> and the LX flavors >>>>> Jerry >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 5:51 PM Ray >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The notes in the NEC 2020 Handbook for article 706 clearly >>>>> state that 706 only covers ESS which is an assembly of >>>>> components, and that the total assembly must be listed under >>>>> UL 9540. >>>>> >>>>> Further it states: "/A group of separate components that >>>>> includes storage batteries, that is provided with support >>>>> systems (racks), charge controllers, and inverters, and that >>>>> does NOT have an overall listing as an ESS is a storage >>>>> battery system and as such is subject to the requirements of >>>>> article 480"/ >>>>> >>>>> and just in case someone says the notes don't matter, 706.5 >>>>> says: "/Energy Storage systems shall be listed"/. >>>>> >>>>> So, since I have never used an actual listed ESS, I'm back to >>>>> 480. Specifically, 480.7 (A) says we need a disconnect for >>>>> batteries over 60 vdc (48v should be exempt) and then 480.7(B) >>>>> says houses need to have an outside disconnect for the >>>>> batteries labeled "Emergency Disconnect". >>>>> >>>>> So here's the real question:   Does 480.7(A) exempt us from >>>>> 480.7(B)? >>>>> >>>>> Ray Walters >>>>> Remote Solar >>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>> >>>>> On 3/9/19 8:08 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: >>>>>> Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree with your interpretation >>>>>> of ESS systems and the application of Article 706.  Yes, an >>>>>> ESS /could/ provide 120/240 VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but the >>>>>> figures in Article 690 show three different configurations >>>>>> where the output of the ESS is not AC, and where the ESS >>>>>> disconnect comes before any power electronics (like a >>>>>> multimode inverter, as shown in the AC and DC coupled >>>>>> systems) or loads (as shown in the stand-alone system). Are >>>>>> those ESS connected to other systems which utilize stored >>>>>> energy to provide AC power? Yes, but the key is "connected to >>>>>> other systems" - in many cases the ESS only provides DC.  In >>>>>> fact the definition of ESS clearly states this - it >>>>>> /can/ have AC or DC output, and it /may/ include power >>>>>> electronics (but may not). >>>>>> My understanding is that the 60 volt limit (which is >>>>>> obviously problematic in a world where 48 VDC batteries and >>>>>> ESS are very common) was inserted in order to exempt other >>>>>> devices that store energy (such as UPS, or battery backup in >>>>>> fire alarms/exit signage/etc.) from the 706 requirements. >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Brian Mehalic >>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >>>>>> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >>>>>> (520) 204-6639 >>>>>> Solar Energy International >>>>>> http://www.solarenergy.org >>>>>> SEI Professional Services >>>>>> http://www.seisolarpros.com >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Ray, >>>>>> >>>>>> This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a >>>>>> number of my fellow inspectors and code experts. When the >>>>>> 2017 NEC came out, I agreed with Mike Holt and Bill >>>>>> Brooks' assessment that the new article was poorly >>>>>> written and did not apply to most systems being installed >>>>>> today. After much discussion through my Cadmus network of >>>>>> authorities, it emerged that indeed 706 apples to the >>>>>> typical residential systems. >>>>>> So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article >>>>>> 706, and I believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM >>>>>> is generating AC voltage of 120VAC or 240VAC, making the >>>>>> system fall under article 706. >>>>>> >>>>>> Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, >>>>>> NFPA 1, and the IFC as applicable locally. >>>>>> So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover >>>>>> the work we do when systems provide or interface with >>>>>> 120VAC or above (making the system operation exceeding >>>>>> the 60V AC trigger). >>>>>> >>>>>> My initial problem was believing that the article applied >>>>>> to a component (the battery bank), and not the system >>>>>> (all components taken together as a generator/storage >>>>>> system). It is an easy misunderstanding to make. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hope this helps! >>>>>> >>>>>> -Glenn Burt >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: RE-wrenches >>>>>> >>>>> > On >>>>>> Behalf Of Ray >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM >>>>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>>> > >>>>>> Cc: Bill Brooks >>>>> >; Bill Brooks >>>>>> > >>>>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Everyone; >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just >>>>>> realized that the newly created article 706 covering >>>>>> Energy Storage Systems is only for Over 60 VDC (706.1)  >>>>>> Also article 480 for batteries only requires >>>>>> disconnecting means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7).   I'm not >>>>>> about to not have a disconnect, so now that NEC pulled >>>>>> battery systems out of 690,  where do we go for guidance >>>>>> on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? >>>>>> >>>>>> Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like >>>>>> separating off grid systems into articles 706, and 710, >>>>>> but it seems us off grid installers need some more >>>>>> clarification. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>>>> work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-cry.gif Type: image/gif Size: 329 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Tue Oct 20 20:22:01 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 17:22:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? In-Reply-To: <5daa715ad07949ac8f05a48c17ca4624@127.0.0.1> References: <5fd581fe-aa11-a580-ee58-6fce37c08fd5@solarray.com> <004d01d4d6cf$4206c020$c6144060$@glbcc.com> <97eceaf5-9681-8b77-82cc-f7011bee040e@solarray.com> <5daa715ad07949ac8f05a48c17ca4624@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Dave, If the AHJ is happy with the remote power down of the inverter (and now the PV array if on the roof or if it enters a building other than a power shed) I'd say that's great. You can't make the inverter much safer than shutting it down. A remote battery disconnect may only de-energize another few feet of battery cable anyway. But I know in California it will be a while until the 2020 NEC is adopted, when it is adopted, you might find the AHJ just saying it has to be done with a battery disconnect. If you are putting in a remote power off circuit or remote disconnect: does it get treated as fire safety equipment? Special MC cable? Metal conduit? Remote shut switch off grouped with the service disconnect? Is all of the equipment listed for emergency shut use? Is it good enough for a nuclear power plant safety system too? Where do we stop? Does anyone wonder why the cabin in the woods flies under the radar rather than attempting to comply with the excess of regulations that get heaped on a small power system? Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 10/20/2020 8:50 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Thanks Kent, > > A question, most of the Sierra AHJ's only care, and that is rare, that > there is a remote power off like Outback and Schneider have already. I > understand it is not a battery disco, and even though there is one in > these systems, what is your response please? > > I mostly dislike power sheds as people need an excuse to go there and > observe. I mostly use a garage or outside house wall to build a bat > room. Appreciate your thoughts. Insurance issues are not as important > these days as many of us no longer can get itCry > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 22:33:03 -0700, Kent Osterberg > wrote: > >> Ray, >> >> Per NEC 480 batteries below 48 volts didn't need a readily accessible >> disconnect within site of the batteries. That's unchanged in the 2020 >> Code, you don't have to have a readily accessible disconnect within >> site of the batteries. That's a good thing considering the >> environment near lead acid batteries. A disconnect switch still isn't >> required in the 48-volt battery room. >> >> Yes, if you put a 48-volt battery in a one or two-family dwelling, an >> outside (remote) emergency disconnect is required. That is going to >> be a pain that may add hundreds of dollars to the cost of small >> off-grid systems. You might get away with a mushroom switch and a >> 24-volt tap on the batteries to activate a remote trip breaker. But >> considering that it is a fire-safety related circuit it is probably >> best to spend the money for the bird box. >> >> At the very least 480.7(B) should make off-grid folks think about >> using a power shed. The power shed is not a dwelling so 2020 NEC >> 480.7(B) doesn't apply. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> >> On 10/19/2020 8:34 PM, Ray wrote: >>> >>> I've used Blue Planet, so I guess I have used an actual UL listed >>> ESS, even though they don't include the charge controller or >>> inverter.  I knew they were UL, but I double checked and it is the >>> UL 9540 standard mentioned in 706. So in this case, we could ignore >>> 480, but are held to 706. Regardless of 480 or 706, both are >>> possibly requiring the outside remote disconnect.  Besides Midnite's >>> remote trip breakers, and the dreaded Bird House, what other options >>> are there to meet this new requirement?   Can the Blue Planet be >>> tripped remotely? >>> >>> and still my initial question: >>> >>> Under 480.7, are batteries below 60v still required to have the >>> remote disconnect?  They are exempted from having a disconnect at >>> all in 480.7(A)......quite confusing. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> On 10/19/20 7:06 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>>> Wrenches >>>> Blue planet are fire and UL listed systems both on there 48 Volt >>>> and the LX flavors >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 5:51 PM Ray >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> The notes in the NEC 2020 Handbook for article 706 clearly >>>> state that 706 only covers ESS which is an assembly of >>>> components, and that the total assembly must be listed under UL >>>> 9540. >>>> >>>> Further it states: "/A group of separate components that >>>> includes storage batteries, that is provided with support >>>> systems (racks), charge controllers, and inverters, and that >>>> does NOT have an overall listing as an ESS is a storage battery >>>> system and as such is subject to the requirements of article 480"/ >>>> >>>> and just in case someone says the notes don't matter, 706.5 >>>> says: "/Energy Storage systems shall be listed"/. >>>> >>>> So, since I have never used an actual listed ESS, I'm back to >>>> 480. Specifically, 480.7 (A) says we need a disconnect for >>>> batteries over 60 vdc (48v should be exempt) and then 480.7(B) >>>> says houses need to have an outside disconnect for the >>>> batteries labeled "Emergency Disconnect". >>>> >>>> So here's the real question:   Does 480.7(A) exempt us from >>>> 480.7(B)? >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>> >>>> On 3/9/19 8:08 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: >>>>> Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree with your interpretation of >>>>> ESS systems and the application of Article 706.  Yes, an ESS >>>>> /could/ provide 120/240 VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but the >>>>> figures in Article 690 show three different configurations >>>>> where the output of the ESS is not AC, and where the ESS >>>>> disconnect comes before any power electronics (like a >>>>> multimode inverter, as shown in the AC and DC coupled systems) >>>>> or loads (as shown in the stand-alone system). Are those ESS >>>>> connected to other systems which utilize stored energy to >>>>> provide AC power? Yes, but the key is "connected to other >>>>> systems" - in many cases the ESS only provides DC.  In fact >>>>> the definition of ESS clearly states this - it /can/ have AC >>>>> or DC output, and it /may/ include power electronics (but may >>>>> not). >>>>> My understanding is that the 60 volt limit (which is obviously >>>>> problematic in a world where 48 VDC batteries and ESS are very >>>>> common) was inserted in order to exempt other devices that >>>>> store energy (such as UPS, or battery backup in fire >>>>> alarms/exit signage/etc.) from the 706 requirements. >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Brian Mehalic >>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >>>>> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >>>>> (520) 204-6639 >>>>> Solar Energy International >>>>> http://www.solarenergy.org >>>>> SEI Professional Services >>>>> http://www.seisolarpros.com >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Ray, >>>>> >>>>> This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a >>>>> number of my fellow inspectors and code experts. When the >>>>> 2017 NEC came out, I agreed with Mike Holt and Bill >>>>> Brooks' assessment that the new article was poorly written >>>>> and did not apply to most systems being installed today. >>>>> After much discussion through my Cadmus network of >>>>> authorities, it emerged that indeed 706 apples to the >>>>> typical residential systems. >>>>> So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article >>>>> 706, and I believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM >>>>> is generating AC voltage of 120VAC or 240VAC, making the >>>>> system fall under article 706. >>>>> >>>>> Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, >>>>> NFPA 1, and the IFC as applicable locally. >>>>> So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover the >>>>> work we do when systems provide or interface with 120VAC >>>>> or above (making the system operation exceeding the 60V AC >>>>> trigger). >>>>> >>>>> My initial problem was believing that the article applied >>>>> to a component (the battery bank), and not the system (all >>>>> components taken together as a generator/storage system). >>>>> It is an easy misunderstanding to make. >>>>> >>>>> Hope this helps! >>>>> >>>>> -Glenn Burt >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: RE-wrenches >>>>> >>>> > On >>>>> Behalf Of Ray >>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM >>>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>> > >>>>> Cc: Bill Brooks >>>> >; Bill Brooks >>>>> > >>>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? >>>>> >>>>> Hi Everyone; >>>>> >>>>> I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just >>>>> realized that the newly created article 706 covering >>>>> Energy Storage Systems is only for Over 60 VDC (706.1)  >>>>> Also article 480 for batteries only requires disconnecting >>>>> means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7).   I'm not about to not have >>>>> a disconnect, so now that NEC pulled battery systems out >>>>> of 690,  where do we go for guidance on normal battery >>>>> systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? >>>>> >>>>> Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like >>>>> separating off grid systems into articles 706, and 710, >>>>> but it seems us off grid installers need some more >>>>> clarification. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Ray Walters >>>>> Remote Solar >>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>>> work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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Name: smiley-cry.gif Type: image/gif Size: 329 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Oct 21 11:27:46 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2020 08:27:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?NEC_for_Batteries_=3C_60v_=3F=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <5fd581fe-aa11-a580-ee58-6fce37c08fd5@solarray.com> <004d01d4d6cf$4206c020$c6144060$@glbcc.com> <97eceaf5-9681-8b77-82cc-f7011bee040e@solarray.com> <5daa715ad07949ac8f05a48c17ca4624@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <94d51420ed5a22106425f1a9de268fe7@127.0.0.1> The AHJ's give alot of slack to me because they know I use the same equipment over and over, so they know it. They also are happy that solar is ground mounted, always. Once inspected the owner usually unplugs the IPO because I tell them that they will lose refrigeration if someone or some animal turns it off. It is mounted on the outside wall of the power system with hi voltage array disco. Sometimes I mount a disco inside also. This is because there are people who are afraid to go outside in a bad thunderstorm. I am not sure how they (Sierra) treat all of this. I only add things that they request. They mostly want the fee! Often, they only show up to look at the trench. Extreme rural and anything connected is in metal/ metal conduit or armored liquidtite. Extreme ground squirrels, they go much deeper than the code requires. Many new homes here get certificate of occupancy on a genset that the builder has hooked up. It is never the same though. The fires have them pretty busy trying to keep the towns from burning down. We are way down the list. Thanks for your comments Kent. Still chuckling! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 20 Oct 2020 17:22:01 -0700, Kent Osterberg wrote: Dave, If the AHJ is happy with the remote power down of the inverter (and now the PV array if on the roof or if it enters a building other than a power shed) I'd say that's great. You can't make the inverter much safer than shutting it down. A remote battery disconnect may only de-energize another few feet of battery cable anyway. But I know in California it will be a while until the 2020 NEC is adopted, when it is adopted, you might find the AHJ just saying it has to be done with a battery disconnect. If you are putting in a remote power off circuit or remote disconnect: does it get treated as fire safety equipment? Special MC cable? Metal conduit? Remote shut switch off grouped with the service disconnect? Is all of the equipment listed for emergency shut use? Is it good enough for a nuclear power plant safety system too? Where do we stop? Does anyone wonder why the cabin in the woods flies under the radar rather than attempting to comply with the excess of regulations that get heaped on a small power system? Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 10/20/2020 8:50 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Thanks Kent, A question, most of the Sierra AHJ's only care, and that is rare, that there is a remote power off like Outback and Schneider have already. I understand it is not a battery disco, and even though there is one in these systems, what is your response please? I mostly dislike power sheds as people need an excuse to go there and observe. I mostly use a garage or outside house wall to build a bat room. Appreciate your thoughts. Insurance issues are not as important these days as many of us no longer can get itDave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [4] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 22:33:03 -0700, Kent Osterberg [5] wrote: Ray, Per NEC 480 batteries below 48 volts didn't need a readily accessible disconnect within site of the batteries. That's unchanged in the 2020 Code, you don't have to have a readily accessible disconnect within site of the batteries. That's a good thing considering the environment near lead acid batteries. A disconnect switch still isn't required in the 48-volt battery room. Yes, if you put a 48-volt battery in a one or two-family dwelling, an outside (remote) emergency disconnect is required. That is going to be a pain that may add hundreds of dollars to the cost of small off-grid systems. You might get away with a mushroom switch and a 24-volt tap on the batteries to activate a remote trip breaker. But considering that it is a fire-safety related circuit it is probably best to spend the money for the bird box. At the very least 480.7(B) should make off-grid folks think about using a power shed. The power shed is not a dwelling so 2020 NEC 480.7(B) doesn't apply. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 10/19/2020 8:34 PM, Ray wrote: I've used Blue Planet, so I guess I have used an actual UL listed ESS, even though they don't include the charge controller or inverter. I knew they were UL, but I double checked and it is the UL 9540 standard mentioned in 706. So in this case, we could ignore 480, but are held to 706. Regardless of 480 or 706, both are possibly requiring the outside remote disconnect. Besides Midnite's remote trip breakers, and the dreaded Bird House, what other options are there to meet this new requirement? Can the Blue Planet be tripped remotely? and still my initial question: Under 480.7, are batteries below 60v still required to have the remote disconnect? They are exempted from having a disconnect at all in 480.7(A)......quite confusing. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/19/20 7:06 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Blue planet are fire and UL listed systems both on there 48 Volt and the LX flavors Jerry On Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 5:51 PM Ray wrote: The notes in the NEC 2020 Handbook for article 706 clearly state that 706 only covers ESS which is an assembly of components, and that the total assembly must be listed under UL 9540. Further it states: "_ A group of separate components that includes storage batteries, that is provided with support systems (racks), charge controllers, and inverters, and that does NOT have an overall listing as an ESS is a storage battery system and as such is subject to the requirements of article 480"_ and just in case someone says the notes don't matter, 706.5 says: "_Energy Storage systems shall be listed"_. So, since I have never used an actual listed ESS, I'm back to 480. Specifically, 480.7 (A) says we need a disconnect for batteries over 60 vdc (48v should be exempt) and then 480.7(B) says houses need to have an outside disconnect for the batteries labeled "Emergency Disconnect". So here's the real question: Does 480.7(A) exempt us from 480.7(B)? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/9/19 8:08 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree with your interpretation of ESS systems and the application of Article 706. Yes, an ESS _could_ provide 120/240 VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but the figures in Article 690 show three different configurations where the output of the ESS is not AC, and where the ESS disconnect comes before any power electronics (like a multimode inverter, as shown in the AC and DC coupled systems) or loads (as shown in the stand-alone system). Are those ESS connected to other systems which utilize stored energy to provide AC power? Yes, but the key is "connected to other systems" - in many cases the ESS only provides DC. In fact the definition of ESS clearly states this - it _can_ have AC or DC output, and it _may_ include power electronics (but may not). My understanding is that the 60 volt limit (which is obviously problematic in a world where 48 VDC batteries and ESS are very common) was inserted in order to exempt other devices that store energy (such as UPS, or battery backup in fire alarms/exit signage/etc.) from the 706 requirements. Cheers, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional(tm) R031508-59 National Electrical Code(R) CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org [7] SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com [8] On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt wrote: Hi Ray, This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a number of my fellow inspectors and code experts. When the 2017 NEC came out, I agreed with Mike Holt and Bill Brooks' assessment that the new article was poorly written and did not apply to most systems being installed today. After much discussion through my Cadmus network of authorities, it emerged that indeed 706 apples to the typical residential systems. So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article 706, and I believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM is generating AC voltage of 120VAC or 240VAC, making the system fall under article 706. Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, NFPA 1, and the IFC as applicable locally. So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover the work we do when systems provide or interface with 120VAC or above (making the system operation exceeding the 60V AC trigger). My initial problem was believing that the article applied to a component (the battery bank), and not the system (all components taken together as a generator/storage system). It is an easy misunderstanding to make. Hope this helps! -Glenn Burt -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Bill Brooks ; Bill Brooks Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? Hi Everyone; I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized that the newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage Systems is only for Over 60 VDC (706.1) Also article 480 for batteries only requires disconnecting means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7). I'm not about to not have a disconnect, so now that NEC pulled battery systems out of 690, where do we go for guidance on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like separating off grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but it seems us off grid installers need some more clarification. Thanks, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [16] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [17] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [18] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [19] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [21] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [22] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [23] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [24] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [25] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [26] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [27] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [28] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [29] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [30] There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-embarassed.gif Type: image/gif Size: 331 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-cry.gif Type: image/gif Size: 329 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 12:07:08 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 10:07:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FMC in battery rooms Message-ID: <343E7156-7516-4D93-AB86-D69F12F8FECC@gmail.com> HI All, 348.12 says that FMC cannot be used in battery rooms. Would anyone like to chime in as to why that would be? And what is the definition of a battery room: Is a battery in an enclosure ( box) a battery room, or is the room that the battery/box is in the battery room? Thx jay From kent at coveoregon.com Thu Oct 22 13:02:54 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 10:02:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FMC in battery rooms In-Reply-To: <343E7156-7516-4D93-AB86-D69F12F8FECC@gmail.com> References: <343E7156-7516-4D93-AB86-D69F12F8FECC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, I suspect it is because FMC is not vapor tight and could be an unintentional path for hydrogen gas, or could allow acid vapors to condense on the enclosed wiring. LFMC (aka liquid tight) is allowed in battery rooms. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 10/22/2020 9:07 AM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > 348.12 says that FMC cannot be used in battery rooms. > > Would anyone like to chime in as to why that would be? > > And what is the definition of a battery room: > Is a battery in an enclosure ( box) a battery room, or is the room that the battery/box is in the battery room? > > Thx > > jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From markf at berkeleysolar.com Thu Oct 22 13:36:34 2020 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 10:36:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FMC in battery rooms In-Reply-To: References: <343E7156-7516-4D93-AB86-D69F12F8FECC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02348b07-a001-3a97-9929-8c3b0f643310@berkeleysolar.com> Perhaps we should be applying Article 500 to the installation of batteries as well. On 10/22/2020 10:02 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote: > Jay, > > I suspect it is because FMC is not vapor tight and could be an > unintentional path for hydrogen gas, or could allow acid vapors to > condense on the enclosed wiring. LFMC (aka liquid tight) is allowed in > battery rooms. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > On 10/22/2020 9:07 AM, jay wrote: >> HI All, >> >> 348.12 says that FMC cannot be used in battery rooms. >> >> Would anyone like to chime in as to why that would be? >> >> And what is the definition of a battery room: >> Is a battery in an enclosure ( box) a battery room, or is the room >> that the battery/box is in the battery room? >> >> Thx >> >> jay >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From kent at coveoregon.com Thu Oct 22 14:18:19 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 11:18:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FMC in battery rooms In-Reply-To: <02348b07-a001-3a97-9929-8c3b0f643310@berkeleysolar.com> References: <343E7156-7516-4D93-AB86-D69F12F8FECC@gmail.com> <02348b07-a001-3a97-9929-8c3b0f643310@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <3576ab55-b0ac-8acf-ca7a-7e6d74ff8742@coveoregon.com> Mark, That's to be avoided if possible. You wouldn't be allowed to put batteries in a battery room. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 10/22/2020 10:36 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > Perhaps we should be applying Article 500 to the installation of > batteries as well. > > On 10/22/2020 10:02 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote: >> Jay, >> >> I suspect it is because FMC is not vapor tight and could be an >> unintentional path for hydrogen gas, or could allow acid vapors to >> condense on the enclosed wiring. LFMC (aka liquid tight) is allowed >> in battery rooms. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> On 10/22/2020 9:07 AM, jay wrote: >>> HI All, >>> >>> 348.12 says that FMC cannot be used in battery rooms. >>> >>> Would anyone like to chime in as to why that would be? >>> >>> And what is the definition of a battery room: >>> Is a battery in an enclosure ( box) a battery room, or is the room >>> that the battery/box is in the battery room? >>> >>> Thx >>> >>> jay >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > > From ray at solarray.com Thu Oct 22 15:43:22 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 13:43:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FMC in battery rooms In-Reply-To: <02348b07-a001-3a97-9929-8c3b0f643310@berkeleysolar.com> References: <343E7156-7516-4D93-AB86-D69F12F8FECC@gmail.com> <02348b07-a001-3a97-9929-8c3b0f643310@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: I don't think that would be appropriate.  That's why lead acid batteries are covered in their own section in 480. I'm not aware of any references in 480 to also adhere to 500.  Battery acid is corrosive, H2S can be poisonous, but its very rare to build up gases to a flammable concentration outside of the battery. Anyone that is concerned should just use LFP chemistry batteries. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/22/20 11:36 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > Perhaps we should be applying Article 500 to the installation of > batteries as well. > > On 10/22/2020 10:02 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote: >> Jay, >> >> I suspect it is because FMC is not vapor tight and could be an >> unintentional path for hydrogen gas, or could allow acid vapors to >> condense on the enclosed wiring. LFMC (aka liquid tight) is allowed >> in battery rooms. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> On 10/22/2020 9:07 AM, jay wrote: >>> HI All, >>> >>> 348.12 says that FMC cannot be used in battery rooms. >>> >>> Would anyone like to chime in as to why that would be? >>> >>> And what is the definition of a battery room: >>> Is a battery in an enclosure ( box) a battery room, or is the room >>> that the battery/box is in the battery room? >>> >>> Thx >>> >>> jay >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>> try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 16:27:57 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 14:27:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LED switch question Message-ID: On a not very solar question, but Does anyone have any recommendations for dual LED dimmer for a single gang box? I’ve found dual with one side being for LED and the other side for a fan which I could make work. But just thought someone might already know of a product. thx jay From ray at solarray.com Thu Oct 22 18:42:03 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 16:42:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sound Equipment Inverter Message-ID: <078e4b4e-e1e9-8cd8-c80a-f25386a7ebd6@solarray.com> Hi All; I've just had an inquiry on building a portable sound stage and recording setup.  Traditionally we've always used Exeltech, as they've had the cleanest output, with background buzz on tube amps being lower than grid power.  Modsine were horrible, Old Trace SWs were pretty intolerable, Magnum's were usable, but still noticeably more buzz than grid.  I think THD is roughly associated with the background buzz, but there might be certain harmonics that are particularly problematic.  I haven't gotten into looking at the separate harmonics relative to what induces the most noise in these old vacuum tube circuits. This is a 48 v application that also needs a built in charger with transfer switching.  Exeltech does not appear to have anything in that department.  Any other choices?  How are Samlex? As always, thanks in advance for your time and expertise, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Oct 22 19:09:45 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 16:09:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sound Equipment Inverter In-Reply-To: <078e4b4e-e1e9-8cd8-c80a-f25386a7ebd6@solarray.com> References: <078e4b4e-e1e9-8cd8-c80a-f25386a7ebd6@solarray.com> Message-ID: The work I did on this back in the day, when I was into this kind of thing was setting AC voltage for the amps. Marshall and other really nice sounding guitar amps need a specific AC voltage to sound great and get good tube life. I can't remember the voltages exactly but they are out there to find in a search. Bands that are touring, bias the tubes at say 117vac and then run them on stage from an adjustable supply. I used the Xantrex config tool to set XW's for the exact output Vac under typical loading. This was to replace an existing Japanese company that built stage power supplies. They had got very expensive and were hard to find and get support. I never noticed any big noise difference from the grid vs XW supply but the sound quality was noticeable to me when the voltage was right. That was a fun job but really bad hours! Still not getting over losing Eddie Van Halen. He was a master at great sound and nothing between the guitar and his amps but a cable or RF transmitter. He also made his own guitars and amps, even when he could afford to hire it. He used all 10 fingers in his neck tapping techniques. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 22 Oct 2020 16:42:03 -0600, Ray wrote: > Hi All; > > I've just had an inquiry on building a portable sound stage and > recording setup.  Traditionally we've always used Exeltech, as they've > had the cleanest output, with background buzz on tube amps being lower > than grid power.  Modsine were horrible, Old Trace SWs were pretty > intolerable, Magnum's were usable, but still noticeably more buzz than > grid.  I think THD is roughly associated with the background buzz, but > there might be certain harmonics that are particularly problematic.  I > haven't gotten into looking at the separate harmonics relative to what > induces the most noise in these old vacuum tube circuits. > > This is a 48 v application that also needs a built in charger with > transfer switching.  Exeltech does not appear to have anything in that > department.  Any other choices?  How are Samlex? > > As always, thanks in advance for your time and expertise, From Bryan at pv-cables.com Thu Oct 22 19:09:49 2020 From: Bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 16:09:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sound Equipment Inverter In-Reply-To: <078e4b4e-e1e9-8cd8-c80a-f25386a7ebd6@solarray.com> References: <078e4b4e-e1e9-8cd8-c80a-f25386a7ebd6@solarray.com> Message-ID: <040401d6a8c8$718426e0$548c74a0$@pv-cables.com> I have built one small music studio with a Samlex pst-1500-24V and it turned out wonderful - though this was not the inverter w/the built in charger. For the next studio build, it will be my personal studio and I am considering the SAMLEX, EVO-1212F-HW. This build will be finished late next month and I will let you know how it works out. Bryan Norkunas PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 3:42 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sound Equipment Inverter Hi All; I've just had an inquiry on building a portable sound stage and recording setup. Traditionally we've always used Exeltech, as they've had the cleanest output, with background buzz on tube amps being lower than grid power. Modsine were horrible, Old Trace SWs were pretty intolerable, Magnum's were usable, but still noticeably more buzz than grid. I think THD is roughly associated with the background buzz, but there might be certain harmonics that are particularly problematic. I haven't gotten into looking at the separate harmonics relative to what induces the most noise in these old vacuum tube circuits. This is a 48 v application that also needs a built in charger with transfer switching. Exeltech does not appear to have anything in that department. Any other choices? How are Samlex? As always, thanks in advance for your time and expertise, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From Bryan at pv-cables.com Thu Oct 22 19:15:12 2020 From: Bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 16:15:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sound Equipment Inverter In-Reply-To: References: <078e4b4e-e1e9-8cd8-c80a-f25386a7ebd6@solarray.com> Message-ID: <041c01d6a8c9$32425870$96c70950$@pv-cables.com> No one knew what a MXR Phase 90 pedal was until Eddie starting using one, now everyone uses one :) - RIP Bryan -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 4:10 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sound Equipment Inverter The work I did on this back in the day, when I was into this kind of thing was setting AC voltage for the amps. Marshall and other really nice sounding guitar amps need a specific AC voltage to sound great and get good tube life. I can't remember the voltages exactly but they are out there to find in a search. Bands that are touring, bias the tubes at say 117vac and then run them on stage from an adjustable supply. I used the Xantrex config tool to set XW's for the exact output Vac under typical loading. This was to replace an existing Japanese company that built stage power supplies. They had got very expensive and were hard to find and get support. I never noticed any big noise difference from the grid vs XW supply but the sound quality was noticeable to me when the voltage was right. That was a fun job but really bad hours! Still not getting over losing Eddie Van Halen. He was a master at great sound and nothing between the guitar and his amps but a cable or RF transmitter. He also made his own guitars and amps, even when he could afford to hire it. He used all 10 fingers in his neck tapping techniques. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 22 Oct 2020 16:42:03 -0600, Ray wrote: > Hi All; > > I've just had an inquiry on building a portable sound stage and > recording setup. Traditionally we've always used Exeltech, as they've > had the cleanest output, with background buzz on tube amps being lower > than grid power. Modsine were horrible, Old Trace SWs were pretty > intolerable, Magnum's were usable, but still noticeably more buzz than > grid. I think THD is roughly associated with the background buzz, but > there might be certain harmonics that are particularly problematic. I > haven't gotten into looking at the separate harmonics relative to what > induces the most noise in these old vacuum tube circuits. > > This is a 48 v application that also needs a built in charger with > transfer switching. Exeltech does not appear to have anything in that > department. Any other choices? How are Samlex? > > As always, thanks in advance for your time and expertise, _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 19:29:26 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 17:29:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sound Equipment Inverter In-Reply-To: <078e4b4e-e1e9-8cd8-c80a-f25386a7ebd6@solarray.com> References: <078e4b4e-e1e9-8cd8-c80a-f25386a7ebd6@solarray.com> Message-ID: <37CD577E-C007-420A-9844-88CE653EA8EB@gmail.com> Hi Ray How many watt do you need? Jay > On Oct 22, 2020, at 4:42 PM, Ray wrote: > > Hi All; > > I've just had an inquiry on building a portable sound stage and recording setup. Traditionally we've always used Exeltech, as they've had the cleanest output, with background buzz on tube amps being lower than grid power. Modsine were horrible, Old Trace SWs were pretty intolerable, Magnum's were usable, but still noticeably more buzz than grid. I think THD is roughly associated with the background buzz, but there might be certain harmonics that are particularly problematic. I haven't gotten into looking at the separate harmonics relative to what induces the most noise in these old vacuum tube circuits. > > This is a 48 v application that also needs a built in charger with transfer switching. Exeltech does not appear to have anything in that department. Any other choices? How are Samlex? > > As always, thanks in advance for your time and expertise, > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 20:07:31 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 17:07:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sound Equipment Inverter In-Reply-To: <078e4b4e-e1e9-8cd8-c80a-f25386a7ebd6@solarray.com> References: <078e4b4e-e1e9-8cd8-c80a-f25386a7ebd6@solarray.com> Message-ID: Wrenches I have built solar powered sound stages, power trailers for both music and drive in movies, l only use outback, never any complaints, some acts prefer over dirty grid power. I had sunpower positive grounded arrays, AC-DC Coupled arrays. I had a guy use SMA and had all kinds of issues, mainly operator error. We did a full trailer, green room and light bars, powered drop down doors, but it was a little big. Jerry On Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 3:42 PM Ray wrote: > Hi All; > > I've just had an inquiry on building a portable sound stage and > recording setup. Traditionally we've always used Exeltech, as they've > had the cleanest output, with background buzz on tube amps being lower > than grid power. Modsine were horrible, Old Trace SWs were pretty > intolerable, Magnum's were usable, but still noticeably more buzz than > grid. I think THD is roughly associated with the background buzz, but > there might be certain harmonics that are particularly problematic. I > haven't gotten into looking at the separate harmonics relative to what > induces the most noise in these old vacuum tube circuits. > > This is a 48 v application that also needs a built in charger with > transfer switching. Exeltech does not appear to have anything in that > department. Any other choices? How are Samlex? > > As always, thanks in advance for your time and expertise, > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Oct 22 20:26:51 2020 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 17:26:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sound Equipment Inverter In-Reply-To: References: <078e4b4e-e1e9-8cd8-c80a-f25386a7ebd6@solarray.com> Message-ID: <421DBB31-8C5E-4C51-BB54-67C77078B38F@starlightsolar.com> I second the Outback power quality. We built a mobile medical lab that has Xray, ultrasound and other sensitive lab electronics. A 120kWh Li-ion battery package with 8 Outback 3.6kW stacked inverters @ 48 volts has been operating almost weekly for over 3 years. Run from Samlex. We were burned SO many times with poor quality inverters and worthless dealer support. If you want high quality, low cost, look at GoPower industrial models made by Cotek. Many sold, none come back. Able to start heavy loads like air compressors and circular saws. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Oct 22, 2020, at 5:07 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches I have built solar powered sound stages, power trailers for both music and drive in movies, l only use outback, never any complaints, some acts prefer over dirty grid power. I had sunpower positive grounded arrays, AC-DC Coupled arrays. I had a guy use SMA and had all kinds of issues, mainly operator error. We did a full trailer, green room and light bars, powered drop down doors, but it was a little big. Jerry On Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 3:42 PM Ray > wrote: Hi All; I've just had an inquiry on building a portable sound stage and recording setup. Traditionally we've always used Exeltech, as they've had the cleanest output, with background buzz on tube amps being lower than grid power. Modsine were horrible, Old Trace SWs were pretty intolerable, Magnum's were usable, but still noticeably more buzz than grid. I think THD is roughly associated with the background buzz, but there might be certain harmonics that are particularly problematic. I haven't gotten into looking at the separate harmonics relative to what induces the most noise in these old vacuum tube circuits. This is a 48 v application that also needs a built in charger with transfer switching. Exeltech does not appear to have anything in that department. Any other choices? How are Samlex? As always, thanks in advance for your time and expertise, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Thu Oct 22 20:39:13 2020 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 17:39:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sound Equipment Inverter In-Reply-To: <421DBB31-8C5E-4C51-BB54-67C77078B38F@starlightsolar.com> References: <078e4b4e-e1e9-8cd8-c80a-f25386a7ebd6@solarray.com> <421DBB31-8C5E-4C51-BB54-67C77078B38F@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Not to jump on the Outback bandwagon.... But while I was there many, many stages were outfitted with Outback inverters... The only thing I'd watch out for is when charging, if you have to charge while the band is playing, you might get some 60hz noise... Just depends on how clean the install is, gen input...etc... Also when you run your battery cables, twist them as you run them... that will help cancel out some fo the RF noise you can get. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ *Become a Certified PV Professional. Register for* *NABCEP CEC 2020* *using promo code* *20RBE* ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 5:30 PM larry at starlightsolar.com < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > I second the Outback power quality. We built a mobile medical lab that has > Xray, ultrasound and other sensitive lab electronics. A 120kWh Li-ion > battery package with 8 Outback 3.6kW stacked inverters @ 48 volts has been > operating almost weekly for over 3 years. > > Run from Samlex. We were burned SO many times with poor quality inverters > and worthless dealer support. If you want high quality, low cost, look at > GoPower industrial models made by Cotek. Many sold, none come back. Able to > start heavy loads like air compressors and circular saws. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Oct 22, 2020, at 5:07 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > Wrenches > I have built solar powered sound stages, power trailers for both music and > drive in movies, l only use outback, never any complaints, some acts prefer > over dirty grid power. I had sunpower positive grounded arrays, AC-DC > Coupled arrays. I had a guy use SMA and had all kinds of issues, mainly > operator error. We did a full trailer, green room and light bars, powered > drop down doors, but it was a little big. > Jerry > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 3:42 PM Ray wrote: > >> Hi All; >> >> I've just had an inquiry on building a portable sound stage and >> recording setup. Traditionally we've always used Exeltech, as they've >> had the cleanest output, with background buzz on tube amps being lower >> than grid power. Modsine were horrible, Old Trace SWs were pretty >> intolerable, Magnum's were usable, but still noticeably more buzz than >> grid. I think THD is roughly associated with the background buzz, but >> there might be certain harmonics that are particularly problematic. I >> haven't gotten into looking at the separate harmonics relative to what >> induces the most noise in these old vacuum tube circuits. >> >> This is a 48 v application that also needs a built in charger with >> transfer switching. Exeltech does not appear to have anything in that >> department. Any other choices? How are Samlex? >> >> As always, thanks in advance for your time and expertise, >> >> -- >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Oct 22 21:57:37 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 19:57:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sound Equipment Inverter In-Reply-To: <37CD577E-C007-420A-9844-88CE653EA8EB@gmail.com> References: <078e4b4e-e1e9-8cd8-c80a-f25386a7ebd6@solarray.com> <37CD577E-C007-420A-9844-88CE653EA8EB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57e31d87-f261-fe22-ae6f-129f2b03c6eb@solarray.com> Hi Jay; Another great question, that I can't answer.  The continuous watts would probably meter at 100 watts or so, but the transient peaks can be quite a bit more. How much more, depends on how fast your meter capture is, but the ear can hear up to 20 kHz, and my meter can't catch transients anywhere close to that. Having a power supply that can handle those musical transients is important, even if I can't measure it.  The power supply can cause some compression of the sound.  I've already run into that, with transformers on the tube amps, inverter sizing, battery sizing, and Vac. As Dave mentioned, the AC voltage can really matter to these amps, and to bring EVH (rip) again into a seemingly unrelated industry, Eddie used a Variac to feed his Marshall amps lower voltages, to operate at lower volume to get his "Brown sound". All that aside, I'm thinking an Exeltech XP1100 might be plenty, and is a known, high quality waveform.  But then I'd have to add a separate DC charger with its own possible noise issues.   I've used Samlex very little, but seen their inverters survive serious abuse in others' installs, so I look forward to hearing more about Bryan's studio build, too. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/22/20 5:29 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi Ray > > How many watt do you need? > > Jay > >> On Oct 22, 2020, at 4:42 PM, Ray wrote: >> >> Hi All; >> >> I've just had an inquiry on building a portable sound stage and recording setup. Traditionally we've always used Exeltech, as they've had the cleanest output, with background buzz on tube amps being lower than grid power. Modsine were horrible, Old Trace SWs were pretty intolerable, Magnum's were usable, but still noticeably more buzz than grid. I think THD is roughly associated with the background buzz, but there might be certain harmonics that are particularly problematic. I haven't gotten into looking at the separate harmonics relative to what induces the most noise in these old vacuum tube circuits. >> >> This is a 48 v application that also needs a built in charger with transfer switching. Exeltech does not appear to have anything in that department. Any other choices? How are Samlex? >> >> As always, thanks in advance for your time and expertise, >> >> -- >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Oct 23 08:41:04 2020 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2020 08:41:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sound Equipment Inverter In-Reply-To: <078e4b4e-e1e9-8cd8-c80a-f25386a7ebd6@solarray.com> References: <078e4b4e-e1e9-8cd8-c80a-f25386a7ebd6@solarray.com> Message-ID: <74fe0856-834b-b2a6-20b2-9184b10edefb@entech-engineering.com> Ray, we use Samlex on our oyster farm.  We have a 24 Volt system which powers pumps and an oyster sorter. The sorter takes 240 and transforms to 208.  We have not had any issues except that we sometimes have to turn off the inverter and then back on to energize.  The GFI is also a little cranky on these but that could be because of the conditions we are working in. Chris On 10/22/2020 6:42 PM, Ray wrote: > Hi All; > > I've just had an inquiry on building a portable sound stage and > recording setup.  Traditionally we've always used Exeltech, as they've > had the cleanest output, with background buzz on tube amps being lower > than grid power.  Modsine were horrible, Old Trace SWs were pretty > intolerable, Magnum's were usable, but still noticeably more buzz than > grid.  I think THD is roughly associated with the background buzz, but > there might be certain harmonics that are particularly problematic.  I > haven't gotten into looking at the separate harmonics relative to what > induces the most noise in these old vacuum tube circuits. > > This is a 48 v application that also needs a built in charger with > transfer switching.  Exeltech does not appear to have anything in that > department.  Any other choices?  How are Samlex? > > As always, thanks in advance for your time and expertise, > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 10:08:04 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2020 08:08:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sound Equipment Inverter In-Reply-To: <57e31d87-f261-fe22-ae6f-129f2b03c6eb@solarray.com> References: <57e31d87-f261-fe22-ae6f-129f2b03c6eb@solarray.com> Message-ID: <26667D74-A8D6-430B-B5AF-88176E23AA5E@gmail.com> Hi Ray, Given how small your load is and with what Bryan has suggested, it would be a very inexpensive way to go. If you need battery charging while using it and you find noise through battery charger then using a 2 battery system with harness of Anderson connectors would all you to disconnect one and charge it, and then swap without losing power to the inverter. Cheers Jay > On Oct 22, 2020, at 8:56 PM, Ray wrote: > > Hi Jay; > > Another great question, that I can't answer. The continuous watts would probably meter at 100 watts or so, but the transient peaks can be quite a bit more. How much more, depends on how fast your meter capture is, but the ear can hear up to 20 kHz, and my meter can't catch transients anywhere close to that. > > Having a power supply that can handle those musical transients is important, even if I can't measure it. The power supply can cause some compression of the sound. I've already run into that, with transformers on the tube amps, inverter sizing, battery sizing, and Vac. > > As Dave mentioned, the AC voltage can really matter to these amps, and to bring EVH (rip) again into a seemingly unrelated industry, Eddie used a Variac to feed his Marshall amps lower voltages, to operate at lower volume to get his "Brown sound". > > All that aside, I'm thinking an Exeltech XP1100 might be plenty, and is a known, high quality waveform. But then I'd have to add a separate DC charger with its own possible noise issues. I've used Samlex very little, but seen their inverters survive serious abuse in others' installs, so I look forward to hearing more about Bryan's studio build, too. > > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > >> On 10/22/20 5:29 PM, Jay wrote: >> Hi Ray >> >> How many watt do you need? >> >> Jay >> >>>> On Oct 22, 2020, at 4:42 PM, Ray wrote: >>> >>> Hi All; >>> >>> I've just had an inquiry on building a portable sound stage and recording setup. Traditionally we've always used Exeltech, as they've had the cleanest output, with background buzz on tube amps being lower than grid power. Modsine were horrible, Old Trace SWs were pretty intolerable, Magnum's were usable, but still noticeably more buzz than grid. I think THD is roughly associated with the background buzz, but there might be certain harmonics that are particularly problematic. I haven't gotten into looking at the separate harmonics relative to what induces the most noise in these old vacuum tube circuits. >>> >>> This is a 48 v application that also needs a built in charger with transfer switching. Exeltech does not appear to have anything in that department. Any other choices? How are Samlex? >>> >>> As always, thanks in advance for your time and expertise, >>> >>> -- >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Oct 23 11:46:28 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2020 08:46:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sound Equipment Inverter In-Reply-To: <57e31d87-f261-fe22-ae6f-129f2b03c6eb@solarray.com> References: <078e4b4e-e1e9-8cd8-c80a-f25386a7ebd6@solarray.com> <37CD577E-C007-420A-9844-88CE653EA8EB@gmail.com> <57e31d87-f261-fe22-ae6f-129f2b03c6eb@solarray.com> Message-ID: <3d35312e081a2e1c87cf643e030bb71e@127.0.0.1> The load was 8 Marshall Super Leads for my application. And while EVH used a variac for test and studio in early days, he toured with Super Leads and then to the EVH amps with 4 6L6 vacuum tubes each. A few others also. I saw his backstage set-up in the 80's and he had an AC supply regulator with an AGM or GEL based battery for transients. This power system could work in anywhere in the world from various main supplies. I think it would be great if there was a part of this forum titled "in the weeds" or ? for semi off topic stuff. I posted this from an offsite email question but it would be nice to archive a bit and not be so concerned with self promotion. It still is a great forum and thank-you to Mr. W and the group. FRIDAY ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 22 Oct 2020 19:57:37 -0600, Ray wrote: > Hi Jay; > > Another great question, that I can't answer.  The continuous watts would > probably meter at 100 watts or so, but the transient peaks can be quite > a bit more. How much more, depends on how fast your meter capture is, > but the ear can hear up to 20 kHz, and my meter can't catch transients > anywhere close to that. > > Having a power supply that can handle those musical transients is > important, even if I can't measure it.  The power supply can cause some > compression of the sound.  I've already run into that, with transformers > on the tube amps, inverter sizing, battery sizing, and Vac. > > As Dave mentioned, the AC voltage can really matter to these amps, and > to bring EVH (rip) again into a seemingly unrelated industry, Eddie used > a Variac to feed his Marshall amps lower voltages, to operate at lower > volume to get his "Brown sound". > > All that aside, I'm thinking an Exeltech XP1100 might be plenty, and is > a known, high quality waveform.  But then I'd have to add a separate DC > charger with its own possible noise issues.   I've used Samlex very > little, but seen their inverters survive serious abuse in others' > installs, so I look forward to hearing more about Bryan's studio build, > too. > > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 10/22/20 5:29 PM, Jay wrote: >> Hi Ray >> >> How many watt do you need? >> >> Jay >> >>> On Oct 22, 2020, at 4:42 PM, Ray wrote: >>> >>> Hi All; >>> >>> I've just had an inquiry on building a portable sound stage and >>> recording setup. Traditionally we've always used Exeltech, as they've >>> had the cleanest output, with background buzz on tube amps being lower >>> than grid power. Modsine were horrible, Old Trace SWs were pretty >>> intolerable, Magnum's were usable, but still noticeably more buzz than >>> grid. I think THD is roughly associated with the background buzz, but >>> there might be certain harmonics that are particularly problematic. I >>> haven't gotten into looking at the separate harmonics relative to what >>> induces the most noise in these old vacuum tube circuits. >>> >>> This is a 48 v application that also needs a built in charger with >>> transfer switching. Exeltech does not appear to have anything in that >>> department. Any other choices? How are Samlex? >>> >>> As always, thanks in advance for your time and expertise, >>> >>> -- >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From russ at buffalosolartaos.com Fri Oct 23 11:12:56 2020 From: russ at buffalosolartaos.com (Russell Mueller) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2020 09:12:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sound Equipment Inverter In-Reply-To: <078e4b4e-e1e9-8cd8-c80a-f25386a7ebd6@solarray.com> References: <078e4b4e-e1e9-8cd8-c80a-f25386a7ebd6@solarray.com> Message-ID: <16e11593815538ecbc6b0ec4c0ea4735@buffalosolartaos.com> Hi Ray, I'll chime in on this one. My Magnum MS4024 is fine for old tube amps and the recording equipment in my studio -- very low noise floor -- but I have to power guitar pedals with 9v batteries. Powering the pedals with wall warts causes a huge 60Hz buzz. I've tried different transformers, different receptacles, no dice -- have to use 9v batteries. The pedals, however, seem to be the only things that are affected. Everything else is very quiet. I was told years ago that the MagnaSines have 660 steps per AC cycle, and the OutBack FXs have 330. The Trace SW series had 32 steps. -- Russell Mueller BUFFALO SOLAR LLC Taos, New Mexico 575-770-4877 On 2020-10-22 16:42, Ray wrote: > Hi All; > > I've just had an inquiry on building a portable sound stage and > recording setup. Traditionally we've always used Exeltech, as they've > had the cleanest output, with background buzz on tube amps being lower > than grid power. Modsine were horrible, Old Trace SWs were pretty > intolerable, Magnum's were usable, but still noticeably more buzz than > grid. I think THD is roughly associated with the background buzz, but > there might be certain harmonics that are particularly problematic. I > haven't gotten into looking at the separate harmonics relative to what > induces the most noise in these old vacuum tube circuits. > > This is a 48 v application that also needs a built in charger with > transfer switching. Exeltech does not appear to have anything in that > department. Any other choices? How are Samlex? > > As always, thanks in advance for your time and expertise, > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Oct 23 13:30:08 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2020 10:30:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mixing Outback 100 series C with old FX system In-Reply-To: References: <5b0bede8ba07f37245c1144953e88d6e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9030e5ad772a0624bfb94509a803e82a@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I was using the wrong Cat5 port on the FM100! Oops… With the correct port connected directly to the Mate3s, not Hub, no jumpers changed, no rebooting, it worked just fine. Thanks everyone. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *John Blittersdorf *Sent:* Monday, October 19, 2020 6:32 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Mixing Outback 100 series C with old FX system William, I don’t think the fm100 will be visible unless you reboot the whole system with inverter attached to port 1 of hub, mate3s attached to mate terminal in hub and fm100 plugged into port 2 of hub. I’ve done this numerous times and you can program the fm 100. However, I have never left an fm100 without a mate3. Not sure if the charge controller will just keep running blind when you unplug the mate 3s. You could try it and see if if it shows charging on a trimetric or with a clamp meter. Yes, a mate3s and fm100 and hub is quite a financial bite when just looking for higher voltage or higher amperage controller. John Blittersdorf On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 10:11 AM Bradley Bassett wrote: I think there is a jumper in the FM100 that will allow the Mate3s to communicate with it. I don't remember off hand where it is and am not at a computer with that info, but maybe this will prompt a look at the manual to see if they mention it. Brad On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 11:11 PM William Miller wrote: Friends: I installed a Flexmax 100 today in a dual FX system circa 2003. The system has an oval Mate and it is no surprise the old Mate does not communicate with the FM100 as this was made clear from the literature. I plugged in a new Mate3S directly into the FM100 hoping to connect and see data, but alas, the display was almost entirely blank. It only showed the battery voltage which was 500 volts, which I guess is a promotion. I then tried plugging the FM100 into a Hub 10.3 and then into the Mate3S. Still no display. I’d like to field-check the FM100 with a Mate3 or 3S but don’t know how. It used to be you could plug an MX60 into a Mate and get some semblance of normality displayed. Can I swap out the old hub with a 10.3 with the inverters connected and get FM100 data? Any ideas out there? Thanks in advanced. William PS: The FM100 is charging so that is not an issue. Wm Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emerkel15 at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 15:21:53 2020 From: emerkel15 at gmail.com (Evan M) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2020 15:21:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1500V Meter Message-ID: hey all, anyone have any good recommendations on clamp meters rated up to or over 1500Vdc? I had my eye on the Hioki unit but their fine print says you can only go over 1000V if the circuit is isolated from the grid and isolated from ground. Isolated from grid means I can't take operating voltage readings under load (at least not with a transformerless inverter) and isolated from ground means I can't use it with a larger transformer-based inverter. anyone found a better unit out there without the fine print? thanks! evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windsine at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 12:13:25 2020 From: windsine at gmail.com (Roy Rakobitsch) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 11:13:25 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1500V Meter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've been using the Hioki dc clamp meter just fine on 1500vdc circuits. I only use it for DC, and it works fine. Roy Rakobitsch Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine LLC 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 14:22 Evan M wrote: > hey all, > anyone have any good recommendations on clamp meters rated up to or over > 1500Vdc? I had my eye on the Hioki unit but their fine print says you can > only go over 1000V if the circuit is isolated from the grid and isolated > from ground. Isolated from grid means I can't take operating voltage > readings under load (at least not with a transformerless inverter) and > isolated from ground means I can't use it with a larger transformer-based > inverter. anyone found a better unit out there without the fine print? > > thanks! > evan > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 13:54:37 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 11:54:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GFDI requirements Message-ID: <37F35EE7-B9DE-4D24-8246-A26D46DFADBE@gmail.com> HI All, I’ve got a question about GFDI requirements and do they apply to the following. Here is the project. 1. water pumping DC direct grundfos SQFLex 2. no humans anywhere around 3. no buildings or living structures 4. would be 3 pole mounts: each mount as 1 string, so 3 strings. 2019 code 690.41 B2 says that 2 modules in parallel without humans involved doesn’t need GFDI 5. system would be solidly grounded. So what is the requirement for needing GFDI on this project? thanks jay From brian at solarenergy.org Tue Oct 27 15:11:17 2020 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 12:11:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GFDI requirements In-Reply-To: <37F35EE7-B9DE-4D24-8246-A26D46DFADBE@gmail.com> References: <37F35EE7-B9DE-4D24-8246-A26D46DFADBE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well Jay, if you call each of those poles "arrays" then you've got a path around the 2 parallel circuit maximum :) Note 2020 NEC language has changed a bit, though it's still not crystal clear: "PV system dc circuits that exceed 30 volts or 8 amperes shall be provided with dc ground-fault protection meeting the requirements of 690.41(B)(1) and (B)(2) to reduce fire hazards. Solidly grounded PV source circuits with not more than two modules in parallel and not on or in buildings shall be permitted without ground-fault protection." Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 11:40 AM jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’ve got a question about GFDI requirements and do they apply to the > following. > > Here is the project. > > 1. water pumping DC direct grundfos SQFLex > > 2. no humans anywhere around > > 3. no buildings or living structures > > 4. would be 3 pole mounts: each mount as 1 string, so 3 strings. > 2019 code 690.41 B2 says that 2 modules in parallel without humans > involved doesn’t need GFDI > > 5. system would be solidly grounded. > > So what is the requirement for needing GFDI on this project? > > thanks > > jay > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Oct 27 18:02:34 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 15:02:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GFDI requirements In-Reply-To: References: <37F35EE7-B9DE-4D24-8246-A26D46DFADBE@gmail.com> Message-ID: If it is all Grundfos electronics and the panels they specify, then I would get a permit and let the inspector make the decision. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 27 Oct 2020 12:11:17 -0700, Brian Mehalic wrote: Well Jay, if you call each of those poles "arrays" then you've got a path around the 2 parallel circuit maximum :) Note 2020 NEC language has changed a bit, though it's still not crystal clear: "PV system dc circuits that exceed 30 volts or 8 amperes shall be provided with dc ground-fault protection meeting the requirements of 690.41(B)(1) and (B)(2) to reduce fire hazards. Solidly grounded PV source circuits with not more than two modules in parallel and not on or in buildings shall be permitted without ground-fault protection." Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional(tm) R031508-59 National Electrical Code(R) CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org [3] SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com [4] On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 11:40 AM jay wrote: HI All, I've got a question about GFDI requirements and do they apply to the following. Here is the project. 1. water pumping DC direct grundfos SQFLex 2. no humans anywhere around 3. no buildings or living structures 4. would be 3 pole mounts: each mount as 1 string, so 3 strings. 2019 code 690.41 B2 says that 2 modules in parallel without humans involved doesn't need GFDI 5. system would be solidly grounded. So what is the requirement for needing GFDI on this project? thanks jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.solarenergy.org [4] http://www.seisolarpros.com [5] mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Tue Oct 27 18:27:31 2020 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 17:27:31 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supply side denial Message-ID: Hi All, I have a utility that is hinting that they are going to deny my interconnection application with a supply side connection and require a load side. Has anyone seen this before? (Proposed interconnection would be with Milbank step lugs in a 200 A socket and a 60 A fused disconnect within 10 feet.) If they refuse it, i am thinking that registering a complaint with the Wisconsin PSC may be appropriate. Kris Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 18:36:20 2020 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 15:36:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GFDI requirements In-Reply-To: References: <37F35EE7-B9DE-4D24-8246-A26D46DFADBE@gmail.com> Message-ID: At least when we sold these they were not listed. We got caught on this a couple of times in WA state and were not allowed to install them. Also Grundfos said not to use a Gfi with them. Maybe a dc gfi might be ok on the PV side of the CU200. Brad Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 27, 2020, at 3:02 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > If it is all Grundfos electronics and the panels they specify, then I would get a permit and let the inspector make the decision. > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 >> On Tue, 27 Oct 2020 12:11:17 -0700, Brian Mehalic wrote: >> >> Well Jay, if you call each of those poles "arrays" then you've got a path around the 2 parallel circuit maximum :) >> >> Note 2020 NEC language has changed a bit, though it's still not crystal clear: >> "PV system dc circuits that exceed 30 volts or 8 amperes shall be provided with dc ground-fault protection meeting the requirements of 690.41(B)(1) and (B)(2) to reduce fire hazards. Solidly grounded PV source circuits with not more than two modules in parallel and not on or in buildings shall be permitted without ground-fault protection." >> >> Brian Mehalic >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >> (520) 204-6639 >> >> Solar Energy International >> http://www.solarenergy.org >> >> SEI Professional Services >> http://www.seisolarpros.com >> >> >>> On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 11:40 AM jay wrote: >>> HI All, >>> >>> I've got a question about GFDI requirements and do they apply to the following. >>> >>> Here is the project. >>> >>> 1. water pumping DC direct grundfos SQFLex >>> >>> 2. no humans anywhere around >>> >>> 3. no buildings or living structures >>> >>> 4. would be 3 pole mounts: each mount as 1 string, so 3 strings. >>> 2019 code 690.41 B2 says that 2 modules in parallel without humans involved doesn't need GFDI >>> >>> 5. system would be solidly grounded. >>> >>> So what is the requirement for needing GFDI on this project? >>> >>> thanks >>> >>> jay >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Oct 27 19:41:42 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 19:41:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supply side denial In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7f6ec7ca93faefc02f690868e66d83cb@redwoodalliance.org> AEP Won't let us do a line side tap. We can tap into the line side and install another service as permitted by the Rule of Six. I have used the Eaton, 4 space breaker box with 2 spaces for the service disconnect and 2 for the PV connection. Supposedly you can use a main breaker retainer, according to Eaton tech support, However, the box doesn't have holes for the screws, but you can drill a hole in the box and get one screw in. It seems to hold the breaker firmly.Some inspectors could have an issue with that. Other manufacturers may have better solutions. --- On 2020-10-27 18:27, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > Hi All, > > I have a utility that is hinting that they are going to deny my interconnection application with a supply side connection and require a load side. Has anyone seen this before? > > (Proposed interconnection would be with Milbank step lugs in a 200 A socket and a 60 A fused disconnect within 10 feet.) > > If they refuse it, i am thinking that registering a complaint with the Wisconsin PSC may be appropriate. > > Kris > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com [1] > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.legacysolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Oct 27 20:06:13 2020 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 20:06:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supply side denial Message-ID: So you are talking about a supply side connection, not a line side tap....Lets stick to code compliant terminology and not jargon as Mike Holt would say...-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.orgDate: Tue, Oct 27, 2020 7:43 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Supply side denial AEP Won't let us do a line side tap. We can tap into the line side and install another service as permitted by the Rule of Six. I have used the Eaton, 4 space breaker box with 2 spaces for the service disconnect and 2 for the PV connection.   Supposedly you can use a main breaker retainer, according to Eaton tech support, However, the box doesn't have holes for the screws, but you can drill a hole in the box and get one screw in. It seems to hold the breaker firmly.Some inspectors could have an issue with that.   Other manufacturers may have better solutions.   ---   On 2020-10-27 18:27, Kristopher Schmid wrote: Hi All,   I have a utility that is hinting that they are going to deny my interconnection application with a supply side connection and require a load side.  Has anyone seen this before?   (Proposed interconnection would be with Milbank step lugs in a 200 A socket and a 60 A fused disconnect within 10 feet.)   If they refuse it, i am thinking that registering a complaint with the Wisconsin PSC may be appropriate.   Kris     Shine On!Kris SchmidLegacy Solar, LLC137 West 1st AvenueLuck, WI 54853www.legacysolar.com715-653-4295NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalLicensed Wisconsin Master ElectricianBSEE   _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Oct 28 06:47:39 2020 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 06:47:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supply side denial In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would think that would be illegal.  They don't have jurisdiction on supply side taps. It's past the meter, and expressly allowed in the NEC.  I would definitely first ask to talk to a higher level person than the one denying it (paper trail important). If that does not work, then the PSC is your best option.  Chris On 10/27/2020 6:27 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > Hi All, > > I have a utility that is hinting that they are going to deny my > interconnection application with a supply side connection and require > a load side.  Has anyone seen this before? > > (Proposed interconnection would be with Milbank step lugs in a 200 A > socket and a 60 A fused disconnect within 10 feet.) > > If they refuse it, i am thinking that registering a complaint with the > Wisconsin PSC may be appropriate. > > Kris > > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at sesre.com Wed Oct 28 08:26:27 2020 From: matt at sesre.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 12:26:27 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supply side denial In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kris, Are they telling you the problem is the connection in the meter base? We get this all the time from local utilities. Even with the listed Milbanks like you describe, they say no and direct us to tap on the load side of the meter base. I agree that you may consider an informal complaint with your PSC. Our KY PSC denied my complaint but promptly initiated a state-wide hearing on interconnection standards. Good luck. Matt From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 6:48 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Supply side denial I would think that would be illegal. They don't have jurisdiction on supply side taps. It's past the meter, and expressly allowed in the NEC. I would definitely first ask to talk to a higher level person than the one denying it (paper trail important). If that does not work, then the PSC is your best option. Chris On 10/27/2020 6:27 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: Hi All, I have a utility that is hinting that they are going to deny my interconnection application with a supply side connection and require a load side. Has anyone seen this before? (Proposed interconnection would be with Milbank step lugs in a 200 A socket and a 60 A fused disconnect within 10 feet.) If they refuse it, i am thinking that registering a complaint with the Wisconsin PSC may be appropriate. Kris Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 09:45:16 2020 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 06:45:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supply side denial In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kris. Here in Southern Oregon our utility if Pacific Power. They also will not allow us to do any kind of connection of tap inside the meter box even with code approved connection methods. They consider the meter can "their property" We are allowed supply side connections via any other AHJ approved method upstream of the main breaker in the customer owned panel. We can connect using step lugs on input of breakers, supply side tap on the wire between the main breaker and the meter- all as long as it is not in "their" meter can. That is the distinguishing factor----where the connection is made. Most utilities lock out the meter can so as to keep people out of "their jurisdiction" so as to limit the possibility of stealing power by bypassing the meter. I am not sure if this is the distinction they are making.- not whether you are allowed to make a supply side tap or connection but where you make that connection. Hope that helps. Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 3:27 PM Kristopher Schmid wrote: > Hi All, > > I have a utility that is hinting that they are going to deny my > interconnection application with a supply side connection and require a > load side. Has anyone seen this before? > > (Proposed interconnection would be with Milbank step lugs in a 200 A > socket and a 60 A fused disconnect within 10 feet.) > > If they refuse it, i am thinking that registering a complaint with the > Wisconsin PSC may be appropriate. > > Kris > > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Wed Oct 28 12:00:10 2020 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 11:00:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supply side denial In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for all the discussion and insight. I believe the main issue here is them being territorial about the meter socket (they did not install it and they do not own it). My follow up question to them was, "I assume that you allow a 320 A meter socket feeding two main panels. Is this different?" Waiting for a response... Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:47 AM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > I would think that would be illegal. They don't have jurisdiction on > supply side taps. It's past the meter, and expressly allowed in the NEC. I > would definitely first ask to talk to a higher level person than the one > denying it (paper trail important). If that does not work, then the PSC is > your best option. Chris > On 10/27/2020 6:27 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > > Hi All, > > I have a utility that is hinting that they are going to deny my > interconnection application with a supply side connection and require a > load side. Has anyone seen this before? > > (Proposed interconnection would be with Milbank step lugs in a 200 A > socket and a 60 A fused disconnect within 10 feet.) > > If they refuse it, i am thinking that registering a complaint with the > Wisconsin PSC may be appropriate. > > Kris > > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Wed Oct 28 10:25:24 2020 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jefferson Jarvis) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 09:25:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supply side denial In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2fdaa191-bf85-cb27-4bd0-61a65d7f07b4@aprsworld.com> Hopefully Wisconsin is better than Minnesota about this. As a former Wisconsin resident, I doubt it...but here is how some of this works in Minnesota, lest you have any illusion that a PSC or a state cares about you. In Minnesota the state allows the utility to essentially make any interconnection rules they want. Our local cooperative requires that you install a meter socket for a production only meter. And then buy the meter from them. The first time I got bit by this was after they had charged us hundreds of dollars to have an engineer review our plans, got approval, installed the system, and then they asked where the production only meter was. I said it wasn't on the plans their engineer approved and they said they didn't care and they wouldn't interconnect until that meter was there. Ended up having to rework a bunch and cost well over a $1,000 to get added. Another game they play is skirting the 40kW state law guaranteed net metering cap. The same cooperative requires demand metering if your transformer is larger than 37.5 kVA. And their demand meter doesn't take into account direction. So if you are supplying them 40kW that counts as 40kW of demand and *costs* $400 a month for demand charges. So you can really only connect 37.5 kW. I attempted to make a complaint on both of these occasions to the state Public Utilities Commission. And found out that they don't regulate cooperatives. Apparently the state feels that since cooperatives are owned by members, they don't need any oversight. They told me that I could just run to be on the cooperative board. Which I decided to do. Then came to find out that the 60k member cooperative suspended board elections for 5 years due to a merger. -James Jarvis APRS World, LLC On 10/28/2020 5:47 AM, Christopher Warfel wrote: > > I would think that would be illegal.  They don't have jurisdiction on > supply side taps. It's past the meter, and expressly allowed in the > NEC.  I would definitely first ask to talk to a higher level person > than the one denying it (paper trail important). If that does not > work, then the PSC is your best option.  Chris > > On 10/27/2020 6:27 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> I have a utility that is hinting that they are going to deny my >> interconnection application with a supply side connection and require >> a load side.  Has anyone seen this before? >> >> (Proposed interconnection would be with Milbank step lugs in a 200 A >> socket and a 60 A fused disconnect within 10 feet.) >> >> If they refuse it, i am thinking that registering a complaint with >> the Wisconsin PSC may be appropriate. >> >> Kris >> >> >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 137 West 1st Avenue >> Luck, WI 54853 >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -James Jefferson Jarvis jj at aprsworld.com +1-507-454-2727 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Oct 28 12:18:38 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 09:18:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supply side denial In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Others have pointed this out, but I thought I'd just add a bit of info based on my experience - the issue is not so much whether you can do a supply side connection or not, as that is allowed in the code. The issue is whether you can do wiring in a section of equipment that is only for the utility. Even though the building owner buys the meter socket, it is standard that you can't do work in a meter socket section. If we do a supply side connection, we do it in the section of equipment that is allowed to be touched by an electrician. In order to allow for a connection in an actual meter socket section, I would think that the utility would need to approve it through some sort of official tariff or bulletin process. Our utility, PG&E, has a document called the Greenbook that lists their rules. I assume other utilities have the same? Here is an example of a Green Meter Adapter bulletin that allows for specific installation of a listed piece of equipment in the meter section: https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/services/building-and-renovation/greenbook-manual-online/TD-7001B-007.pdf Good luck out there! August On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 9:00 AM Kristopher Schmid wrote: > Thanks for all the discussion and insight. I believe the main issue here > is them being territorial about the meter socket (they did not install it > and they do not own it). My follow up question to them was, "I assume that > you allow a 320 A meter socket feeding two main panels. Is this > different?" Waiting for a response... > > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:47 AM Christopher Warfel < > cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > >> I would think that would be illegal. They don't have jurisdiction on >> supply side taps. It's past the meter, and expressly allowed in the NEC. I >> would definitely first ask to talk to a higher level person than the one >> denying it (paper trail important). If that does not work, then the PSC is >> your best option. Chris >> On 10/27/2020 6:27 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> I have a utility that is hinting that they are going to deny my >> interconnection application with a supply side connection and require a >> load side. Has anyone seen this before? >> >> (Proposed interconnection would be with Milbank step lugs in a 200 A >> socket and a 60 A fused disconnect within 10 feet.) >> >> If they refuse it, i am thinking that registering a complaint with the >> Wisconsin PSC may be appropriate. >> >> Kris >> >> >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 137 West 1st Avenue >> Luck, WI 54853 >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Wed Oct 28 12:40:37 2020 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 09:40:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supply side denial In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There's very "territorial" language in the 2020 NEC 705.11(D): "For meter socket enclosures or other equipment under the exclusive control of the electric utility, only connections approved by the electric utility shall be permitted." Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 9:00 AM Kristopher Schmid wrote: > Thanks for all the discussion and insight. I believe the main issue here > is them being territorial about the meter socket (they did not install it > and they do not own it). My follow up question to them was, "I assume that > you allow a 320 A meter socket feeding two main panels. Is this > different?" Waiting for a response... > > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:47 AM Christopher Warfel < > cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > >> I would think that would be illegal. They don't have jurisdiction on >> supply side taps. It's past the meter, and expressly allowed in the NEC. I >> would definitely first ask to talk to a higher level person than the one >> denying it (paper trail important). If that does not work, then the PSC is >> your best option. Chris >> On 10/27/2020 6:27 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> I have a utility that is hinting that they are going to deny my >> interconnection application with a supply side connection and require a >> load side. Has anyone seen this before? >> >> (Proposed interconnection would be with Milbank step lugs in a 200 A >> socket and a 60 A fused disconnect within 10 feet.) >> >> If they refuse it, i am thinking that registering a complaint with the >> Wisconsin PSC may be appropriate. >> >> Kris >> >> >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 137 West 1st Avenue >> Luck, WI 54853 >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Oct 28 12:49:58 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 12:49:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6) Message-ID: Does anyone else think they botched the wording in this section? It's still not clear, and we have a ton of meter/main combos with feed-through lugs around here. Where is it written, "where an overcurrent device is installed at the *supply end* of the feed-through conductors," (emphasis added) are they referring to the solar backfed breaker on the busbar or another breaker somewhere along the feeder circuit? It goes on to state that the loads on the supplying busbar can comply with any method in 705.12(B)(3), which prescribes an OCPD at the load end of the feeder in 705.12(B)(3)(3), so they can't be talking about that. I have to assume it is the solar backfed breaker they are referencing. See my interpretation of one scenario in the attached image. We're a long way off from the 2020 code implementation here, but it can help sway plans examiners looking to clarify the intent of the 2014/2017 code cycles. Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Interpret 705.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 85003 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Oct 28 15:14:31 2020 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 15:14:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supply side denial In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: CMP-4 strikes again!   That one is pretty obvious.  Accessible battery disconnect requirement no so much.  Christopher Warfel On 10/28/2020 12:40 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > There's very "territorial" language in the 2020 NEC 705.11(D): > > "For meter socket enclosures or other equipment under the exclusive > control of the electric utility, only connections approved by the > electric utility shall be permitted." > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > SEI Professional Services > http://www.seisolarpros.com > > > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 9:00 AM Kristopher Schmid > > wrote: > > Thanks for all the discussion and insight.  I believe the main > issue here is them being territorial about the meter socket (they > did not install it and they do not own it).  My follow up question > to them was, "I assume that you allow a 320 A meter socket feeding > two main panels.  Is this different?"  Waiting for a response... > > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:47 AM Christopher Warfel > > wrote: > > I would think that would be illegal.  They don't have > jurisdiction on supply side taps. It's past the meter, and > expressly allowed in the NEC.  I would definitely first ask to > talk to a higher level person than the one denying it (paper > trail important). If that does not work, then the PSC is your > best option.  Chris > > On 10/27/2020 6:27 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> I have a utility that is hinting that they are going to deny >> my interconnection application with a supply side connection >> and require a load side. Has anyone seen this before? >> >> (Proposed interconnection would be with Milbank step lugs in >> a 200 A socket and a 60 A fused disconnect within 10 feet.) >> >> If they refuse it, i am thinking that registering a complaint >> with the Wisconsin PSC may be appropriate. >> >> Kris >> >> >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 137 West 1st Avenue >> Luck, WI 54853 >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Wed Oct 28 15:36:41 2020 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 12:36:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Jason, Here's the 2020 text: 6) Connections shall be permitted on busbars of panelboards that supply lugs connected to feed-through conductors. The feed-through conductors shall be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)(1). Where an overcurrent device is installed at the supply end of the feed-through conductors, the busbar in the supplying panelboard shall be permitted to be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)⁠(3)⁠(1) through 705.12(B)(3)(3). The OCPD on the supply end of the feed-through conductors would be in the form of a sub-feed breaker at the point of supply to those conductors, re-establishing overcurrent protection of the conductors (likely at the same ampacity as the main breaker in the supplying panel. The feed-through conductors are basically an extension of the busbar in the supplying panel; they can either be protected by the main, or in the presence of multiple sources of power in the supplying panel (such as a backfed PV system breaker) they can be protected based on (B)(3)(1) - "the 125% rule" - or they can be protected by a new overcurrent device at their point of supply, in which case current on them is limited based on that OCPD size; in this latter scenario the busbar in the supplying panel is allowed to be sized based on one of (B)(3)(1) - (3) because it is protected downstream at its end. The theory is pretty much the same as 705.12(B)(1) for feeders - when not connecting at the end of the feeder, use the "125% rule" or re-establish overcurrent protection for that portion of the feeder subject to multiple power sources. In your drawing the 200 A feeder conductors, as well as the busbar below the PV system breaker, could be subject to > 200 A in the event of a fault somewhere along those conductors. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:18 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Does anyone else think they botched the wording in this section? It's > still not clear, and we have a ton of meter/main combos with feed-through > lugs around here. > > Where is it written, "where an overcurrent device is installed at the *supply > end* of the feed-through conductors," (emphasis added) are they referring > to the solar backfed breaker on the busbar or another breaker somewhere > along the feeder circuit? It goes on to state that the loads on the > supplying busbar can comply with any method in 705.12(B)(3), which > prescribes an OCPD at the load end of the feeder in 705.12(B)(3)(3), so > they can't be talking about that. I have to assume it is the solar > backfed breaker they are referencing. > > See my interpretation of one scenario in the attached image. > > We're a long way off from the 2020 code implementation here, but it can > help sway plans examiners looking to clarify the intent of the 2014/2017 > code cycles. > > > Jason Szumlanski > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Oct 28 17:15:03 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 17:15:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For further discussion, I don't see how my original scenario is any different from this attached scenario, which I think everyone would agree is allowed. All conductors and busbars are subject to the same potential loads and fault currents. (Image attached). On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:01 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Of course the feeder conductors and bus bar could be subjected to a fault. > But we're not talking about faults here. Fault protection is the job of the > PV OCPD And primary supply OCPD to protect the downstream busbar and > feeders. If that wasn't the case, you would need a new OCPD on BOTH the > load and line side of a solar connection as a feeder tap, not just the load > side. > > If your interpretation is correct regarding the location of the OCPD, that > sounds like a sub-feed breaker is the only way to comply, and I haven't > seen such an animal for a typical residential load center. You can get > these for NQ panelboards and similar panelboards from other manufacturers > of course. It doesn't say as close as practicable or anything like that. It > says that a busbar connection is allowed when there are feeder CONDUCTORS > connected to feed through LUGS. What does "overcurrent device .. *at* the > supply end" mean? I emphasize "at." It's unclear how you would implement > this other than a sub-feed breaker I suppose, but that's not what it says. > It refers to feeder conductors on lugs on busbars, not feeder conductors on > load-side terminals of an overcurrent device. > > My point is that 705.12 should have been wrapped up neatly in a bow, but > the lack of clarity, still, is astonishing. Why add a section about > feed-through lugs if it's going to be so vague? > > Jason > > > > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 3:37 PM Brian Mehalic > wrote: > >> Hey Jason, >> Here's the 2020 text: >> >> 6) Connections shall be permitted on busbars of panelboards that supply >> lugs connected to feed-through conductors. The feed-through conductors >> shall be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)(1). Where an overcurrent device >> is installed at the supply end of the feed-through conductors, the busbar >> in the supplying panelboard shall be permitted to be sized in accordance >> with 705.12(B)⁠(3)⁠(1) through 705.12(B)(3)(3). >> >> >> The OCPD on the supply end of the feed-through conductors would be in the >> form of a sub-feed breaker at the point of supply to those conductors, >> re-establishing overcurrent protection of the conductors (likely at the >> same ampacity as the main breaker in the supplying panel. The feed-through >> conductors are basically an extension of the busbar in the supplying panel; >> they can either be protected by the main, or in the presence of multiple >> sources of power in the supplying panel (such as a backfed PV system >> breaker) they can be protected based on (B)(3)(1) - "the 125% rule" - or >> they can be protected by a new overcurrent device at their point of supply, >> in which case current on them is limited based on that OCPD size; in this >> latter scenario the busbar in the supplying panel is allowed to be sized >> based on one of (B)(3)(1) - (3) because it is protected downstream at its >> end. >> >> The theory is pretty much the same as 705.12(B)(1) for feeders - when not >> connecting at the end of the feeder, use the "125% rule" or re-establish >> overcurrent protection for that portion of the feeder subject to multiple >> power sources. >> >> In your drawing the 200 A feeder conductors, as well as the busbar below >> the PV system breaker, could be subject to > 200 A in the event of a fault >> somewhere along those conductors. >> >> Brian Mehalic >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >> (520) 204-6639 >> >> Solar Energy International >> http://www.solarenergy.org >> >> >> SEI Professional Services >> http://www.seisolarpros.com >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:18 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> Does anyone else think they botched the wording in this section? It's >>> still not clear, and we have a ton of meter/main combos with feed-through >>> lugs around here. >>> >>> Where is it written, "where an overcurrent device is installed at the *supply >>> end* of the feed-through conductors," (emphasis added) are they >>> referring to the solar backfed breaker on the busbar or another breaker >>> somewhere along the feeder circuit? It goes on to state that the loads on >>> the supplying busbar can comply with any method in 705.12(B)(3), which >>> prescribes an OCPD at the load end of the feeder in 705.12(B)(3)(3), so >>> they can't be talking about that. I have to assume it is the solar >>> backfed breaker they are referencing. >>> >>> See my interpretation of one scenario in the attached image. >>> >>> We're a long way off from the 2020 code implementation here, but it can >>> help sway plans examiners looking to clarify the intent of the 2014/2017 >>> code cycles. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2020-10-28 at 5.13.11 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 71616 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Oct 28 17:01:40 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 17:01:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Of course the feeder conductors and bus bar could be subjected to a fault. But we're not talking about faults here. Fault protection is the job of the PV OCPD And primary supply OCPD to protect the downstream busbar and feeders. If that wasn't the case, you would need a new OCPD on BOTH the load and line side of a solar connection as a feeder tap, not just the load side. If your interpretation is correct regarding the location of the OCPD, that sounds like a sub-feed breaker is the only way to comply, and I haven't seen such an animal for a typical residential load center. You can get these for NQ panelboards and similar panelboards from other manufacturers of course. It doesn't say as close as practicable or anything like that. It says that a busbar connection is allowed when there are feeder CONDUCTORS connected to feed through LUGS. What does "overcurrent device .. *at* the supply end" mean? I emphasize "at." It's unclear how you would implement this other than a sub-feed breaker I suppose, but that's not what it says. It refers to feeder conductors on lugs on busbars, not feeder conductors on load-side terminals of an overcurrent device. My point is that 705.12 should have been wrapped up neatly in a bow, but the lack of clarity, still, is astonishing. Why add a section about feed-through lugs if it's going to be so vague? Jason On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 3:37 PM Brian Mehalic wrote: > Hey Jason, > Here's the 2020 text: > > 6) Connections shall be permitted on busbars of panelboards that supply > lugs connected to feed-through conductors. The feed-through conductors > shall be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)(1). Where an overcurrent device > is installed at the supply end of the feed-through conductors, the busbar > in the supplying panelboard shall be permitted to be sized in accordance > with 705.12(B)⁠(3)⁠(1) through 705.12(B)(3)(3). > > > The OCPD on the supply end of the feed-through conductors would be in the > form of a sub-feed breaker at the point of supply to those conductors, > re-establishing overcurrent protection of the conductors (likely at the > same ampacity as the main breaker in the supplying panel. The feed-through > conductors are basically an extension of the busbar in the supplying panel; > they can either be protected by the main, or in the presence of multiple > sources of power in the supplying panel (such as a backfed PV system > breaker) they can be protected based on (B)(3)(1) - "the 125% rule" - or > they can be protected by a new overcurrent device at their point of supply, > in which case current on them is limited based on that OCPD size; in this > latter scenario the busbar in the supplying panel is allowed to be sized > based on one of (B)(3)(1) - (3) because it is protected downstream at its > end. > > The theory is pretty much the same as 705.12(B)(1) for feeders - when not > connecting at the end of the feeder, use the "125% rule" or re-establish > overcurrent protection for that portion of the feeder subject to multiple > power sources. > > In your drawing the 200 A feeder conductors, as well as the busbar below > the PV system breaker, could be subject to > 200 A in the event of a fault > somewhere along those conductors. > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > > SEI Professional Services > http://www.seisolarpros.com > > > > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:18 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Does anyone else think they botched the wording in this section? It's >> still not clear, and we have a ton of meter/main combos with feed-through >> lugs around here. >> >> Where is it written, "where an overcurrent device is installed at the *supply >> end* of the feed-through conductors," (emphasis added) are they >> referring to the solar backfed breaker on the busbar or another breaker >> somewhere along the feeder circuit? It goes on to state that the loads on >> the supplying busbar can comply with any method in 705.12(B)(3), which >> prescribes an OCPD at the load end of the feeder in 705.12(B)(3)(3), so >> they can't be talking about that. I have to assume it is the solar >> backfed breaker they are referencing. >> >> See my interpretation of one scenario in the attached image. >> >> We're a long way off from the 2020 code implementation here, but it can >> help sway plans examiners looking to clarify the intent of the 2014/2017 >> code cycles. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Wed Oct 28 18:34:33 2020 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 15:34:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This scenario is certainly allowed, but since it's not at the end of the feeder, either: 1. a. The feeder ampacity shall be not less than the sum of the primary source overcurrent device and 125 percent of the power-source output circuit current. 2. b. An overcurrent device at the load side of the power source connection point shall be rated not greater than the ampacity of the feeder. As with the feed-thru conductors, the idea is make them big enough or re-establish overcurrent protection, and protect busbars accordingly. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 2:48 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > For further discussion, I don't see how my original scenario is any > different from this attached scenario, which I think everyone would agree > is allowed. All conductors and busbars are subject to the same potential > loads and fault currents. > (Image attached). > > > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:01 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Of course the feeder conductors and bus bar could be subjected to a >> fault. But we're not talking about faults here. Fault protection is the job >> of the PV OCPD And primary supply OCPD to protect the downstream busbar and >> feeders. If that wasn't the case, you would need a new OCPD on BOTH the >> load and line side of a solar connection as a feeder tap, not just the load >> side. >> >> If your interpretation is correct regarding the location of the OCPD, >> that sounds like a sub-feed breaker is the only way to comply, and I >> haven't seen such an animal for a typical residential load center. You can >> get these for NQ panelboards and similar panelboards from other >> manufacturers of course. It doesn't say as close as practicable or anything >> like that. It says that a busbar connection is allowed when there are >> feeder CONDUCTORS connected to feed through LUGS. What does "overcurrent >> device .. *at* the supply end" mean? I emphasize "at." It's unclear how >> you would implement this other than a sub-feed breaker I suppose, but >> that's not what it says. It refers to feeder conductors on lugs on busbars, >> not feeder conductors on load-side terminals of an overcurrent device. >> >> My point is that 705.12 should have been wrapped up neatly in a bow, but >> the lack of clarity, still, is astonishing. Why add a section about >> feed-through lugs if it's going to be so vague? >> >> Jason >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 3:37 PM Brian Mehalic >> wrote: >> >>> Hey Jason, >>> Here's the 2020 text: >>> >>> 6) Connections shall be permitted on busbars of panelboards that supply >>> lugs connected to feed-through conductors. The feed-through conductors >>> shall be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)(1). Where an overcurrent device >>> is installed at the supply end of the feed-through conductors, the busbar >>> in the supplying panelboard shall be permitted to be sized in accordance >>> with 705.12(B)⁠(3)⁠(1) through 705.12(B)(3)(3). >>> >>> >>> The OCPD on the supply end of the feed-through conductors would be in >>> the form of a sub-feed breaker at the point of supply to those conductors, >>> re-establishing overcurrent protection of the conductors (likely at the >>> same ampacity as the main breaker in the supplying panel. The feed-through >>> conductors are basically an extension of the busbar in the supplying panel; >>> they can either be protected by the main, or in the presence of multiple >>> sources of power in the supplying panel (such as a backfed PV system >>> breaker) they can be protected based on (B)(3)(1) - "the 125% rule" - or >>> they can be protected by a new overcurrent device at their point of supply, >>> in which case current on them is limited based on that OCPD size; in this >>> latter scenario the busbar in the supplying panel is allowed to be sized >>> based on one of (B)(3)(1) - (3) because it is protected downstream at its >>> end. >>> >>> The theory is pretty much the same as 705.12(B)(1) for feeders - when >>> not connecting at the end of the feeder, use the "125% rule" or >>> re-establish overcurrent protection for that portion of the feeder subject >>> to multiple power sources. >>> >>> In your drawing the 200 A feeder conductors, as well as the busbar below >>> the PV system breaker, could be subject to > 200 A in the event of a fault >>> somewhere along those conductors. >>> >>> Brian Mehalic >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >>> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >>> (520) 204-6639 >>> >>> Solar Energy International >>> http://www.solarenergy.org >>> >>> >>> SEI Professional Services >>> http://www.seisolarpros.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:18 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Does anyone else think they botched the wording in this section? It's >>>> still not clear, and we have a ton of meter/main combos with feed-through >>>> lugs around here. >>>> >>>> Where is it written, "where an overcurrent device is installed at the *supply >>>> end* of the feed-through conductors," (emphasis added) are they >>>> referring to the solar backfed breaker on the busbar or another breaker >>>> somewhere along the feeder circuit? It goes on to state that the loads on >>>> the supplying busbar can comply with any method in 705.12(B)(3), which >>>> prescribes an OCPD at the load end of the feeder in 705.12(B)(3)(3), so >>>> they can't be talking about that. I have to assume it is the solar >>>> backfed breaker they are referencing. >>>> >>>> See my interpretation of one scenario in the attached image. >>>> >>>> We're a long way off from the 2020 code implementation here, but it can >>>> help sway plans examiners looking to clarify the intent of the 2014/2017 >>>> code cycles. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Oct 28 18:49:37 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 18:49:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not following you. How is this not at the end of the feeder? The feeder terminates at the main breaker in the subpanel. On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 6:34 PM Brian Mehalic wrote: > This scenario is certainly allowed, but since it's not at the end of the > feeder, either: > > 1. a. > > The feeder ampacity shall be not less than the sum of the primary > source overcurrent device and 125 percent of the power-source output > circuit current. > 2. b. > > An overcurrent device at the load side of the power source connection > point shall be rated not greater than the ampacity of the feeder. > > As with the feed-thru conductors, the idea is make them big enough or > re-establish overcurrent protection, and protect busbars accordingly. > > > > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > SEI Professional Services > http://www.seisolarpros.com > > > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 2:48 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> For further discussion, I don't see how my original scenario is any >> different from this attached scenario, which I think everyone would agree >> is allowed. All conductors and busbars are subject to the same potential >> loads and fault currents. >> (Image attached). >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:01 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> Of course the feeder conductors and bus bar could be subjected to a >>> fault. But we're not talking about faults here. Fault protection is the job >>> of the PV OCPD And primary supply OCPD to protect the downstream busbar and >>> feeders. If that wasn't the case, you would need a new OCPD on BOTH the >>> load and line side of a solar connection as a feeder tap, not just the load >>> side. >>> >>> If your interpretation is correct regarding the location of the OCPD, >>> that sounds like a sub-feed breaker is the only way to comply, and I >>> haven't seen such an animal for a typical residential load center. You can >>> get these for NQ panelboards and similar panelboards from other >>> manufacturers of course. It doesn't say as close as practicable or anything >>> like that. It says that a busbar connection is allowed when there are >>> feeder CONDUCTORS connected to feed through LUGS. What does "overcurrent >>> device .. *at* the supply end" mean? I emphasize "at." It's unclear how >>> you would implement this other than a sub-feed breaker I suppose, but >>> that's not what it says. It refers to feeder conductors on lugs on busbars, >>> not feeder conductors on load-side terminals of an overcurrent device. >>> >>> My point is that 705.12 should have been wrapped up neatly in a bow, but >>> the lack of clarity, still, is astonishing. Why add a section about >>> feed-through lugs if it's going to be so vague? >>> >>> Jason >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 3:37 PM Brian Mehalic >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hey Jason, >>>> Here's the 2020 text: >>>> >>>> 6) Connections shall be permitted on busbars of panelboards that >>>> supply lugs connected to feed-through conductors. The feed-through >>>> conductors shall be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)(1). Where an >>>> overcurrent device is installed at the supply end of the feed-through >>>> conductors, the busbar in the supplying panelboard shall be permitted to be >>>> sized in accordance with 705.12(B)⁠(3)⁠(1) through 705.12(B)(3)(3). >>>> >>>> >>>> The OCPD on the supply end of the feed-through conductors would be in >>>> the form of a sub-feed breaker at the point of supply to those conductors, >>>> re-establishing overcurrent protection of the conductors (likely at the >>>> same ampacity as the main breaker in the supplying panel. The feed-through >>>> conductors are basically an extension of the busbar in the supplying panel; >>>> they can either be protected by the main, or in the presence of multiple >>>> sources of power in the supplying panel (such as a backfed PV system >>>> breaker) they can be protected based on (B)(3)(1) - "the 125% rule" - or >>>> they can be protected by a new overcurrent device at their point of supply, >>>> in which case current on them is limited based on that OCPD size; in this >>>> latter scenario the busbar in the supplying panel is allowed to be sized >>>> based on one of (B)(3)(1) - (3) because it is protected downstream at its >>>> end. >>>> >>>> The theory is pretty much the same as 705.12(B)(1) for feeders - when >>>> not connecting at the end of the feeder, use the "125% rule" or >>>> re-establish overcurrent protection for that portion of the feeder subject >>>> to multiple power sources. >>>> >>>> In your drawing the 200 A feeder conductors, as well as the busbar >>>> below the PV system breaker, could be subject to > 200 A in the event of a >>>> fault somewhere along those conductors. >>>> >>>> Brian Mehalic >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >>>> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >>>> (520) 204-6639 >>>> >>>> Solar Energy International >>>> http://www.solarenergy.org >>>> >>>> >>>> SEI Professional Services >>>> http://www.seisolarpros.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:18 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Does anyone else think they botched the wording in this section? It's >>>>> still not clear, and we have a ton of meter/main combos with feed-through >>>>> lugs around here. >>>>> >>>>> Where is it written, "where an overcurrent device is installed at the *supply >>>>> end* of the feed-through conductors," (emphasis added) are they >>>>> referring to the solar backfed breaker on the busbar or another breaker >>>>> somewhere along the feeder circuit? It goes on to state that the loads on >>>>> the supplying busbar can comply with any method in 705.12(B)(3), which >>>>> prescribes an OCPD at the load end of the feeder in 705.12(B)(3)(3), so >>>>> they can't be talking about that. I have to assume it is the solar >>>>> backfed breaker they are referencing. >>>>> >>>>> See my interpretation of one scenario in the attached image. >>>>> >>>>> We're a long way off from the 2020 code implementation here, but it >>>>> can help sway plans examiners looking to clarify the intent of the >>>>> 2014/2017 code cycles. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Thu Oct 29 09:56:47 2020 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 09:56:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] unfused disconnect before service disconnect Message-ID: I'm looking to the hive mind here to see if others can weigh in on an issue I am having with an inspector. Grid tied PV system, with a line side tap in an automatic transfer switch. There is an outdoor utility required system disconnect right next to the transfer switch. But there was not enough physical space to get something that was service rated with overcurrent protection. So we installed a QO200TR, which is a tiny switch that looks like a circuit breaker, is rated at 60A, but does not actually have overcurrent protection. Then just inside the basement is the service disconnect with the neutral ground bond, etc. The inspector is telling me to bond the neutral and ground in the outdoor unfused disconnect, and remove it in the disconnect in the basement. I am having trouble finding a code reference. Does anyone know of one showing that the unfused disconnect is not the service point even though it comes first? Or is this not something that is allowed? We are on NEC 2017 here in NY.. . Thanks! -Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Thu Oct 29 12:03:01 2020 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 16:03:01 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] unfused disconnect before service disconnect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave, Looking at 2014, NEC 250.24(B) FPN and exhibits tends to imply bonding at first means of disconnect. This also minimizes potential ground loops. Best regards, Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Dave Tedeyan Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2020 9:56:47 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] unfused disconnect before service disconnect I'm looking to the hive mind here to see if others can weigh in on an issue I am having with an inspector. Grid tied PV system, with a line side tap in an automatic transfer switch. There is an outdoor utility required system disconnect right next to the transfer switch. But there was not enough physical space to get something that was service rated with overcurrent protection. So we installed a QO200TR, which is a tiny switch that looks like a circuit breaker, is rated at 60A, but does not actually have overcurrent protection. Then just inside the basement is the service disconnect with the neutral ground bond, etc. The inspector is telling me to bond the neutral and ground in the outdoor unfused disconnect, and remove it in the disconnect in the basement. I am having trouble finding a code reference. Does anyone know of one showing that the unfused disconnect is not the service point even though it comes first? Or is this not something that is allowed? We are on NEC 2017 here in NY.. . Thanks! -Dave Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC [https://www.taitem.com/signatures/logo.png] 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Thu Oct 29 13:04:28 2020 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 13:04:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] unfused disconnect before service disconnect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lloyd, I see what you are saying. Although in 250.24, it seems that they are expecting this first disconnect to have overcurrent protection and be the service disconnecting means. So what if the first disconnect does not have overcurrent protection? I am assuming the "service disconnect" is the first point of overcurrent protection for the service. What I am thinking of is similar to the disconnect allowed on the line side of the meter (230.82 (3)), although this one is on the load side of the meter. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 12:03 PM Lloyd Hoffstatter < lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com> wrote: > Dave, > Looking at 2014, NEC 250.24(B) FPN and exhibits tends to imply bonding at > first means of disconnect. This also minimizes potential ground loops. > Best regards, > Lloyd Hoffstatter > Sunstruck Consulting > > Get Outlook for iOS > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Dave Tedeyan > *Sent:* Thursday, October 29, 2020 9:56:47 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] unfused disconnect before service disconnect > > I'm looking to the hive mind here to see if others can weigh in on an > issue I am having with an inspector. Grid tied PV system, with a line side > tap in an automatic transfer switch. There is an outdoor utility required > system disconnect right next to the transfer switch. But there was not > enough physical space to get something that was service rated with > overcurrent protection. So we installed a QO200TR, which is a tiny switch > that looks like a circuit breaker, is rated at 60A, but does not actually > have overcurrent protection. Then just inside the basement is the service > disconnect with the neutral ground bond, etc. The inspector is telling me > to bond the neutral and ground in the outdoor unfused disconnect, and > remove it in the disconnect in the basement. > > I am having trouble finding a code reference. Does anyone know of one > showing that the unfused disconnect is not the service point even though it > comes first? Or is this not something that is allowed? We are on NEC 2017 > here in NY.. > . > Thanks! > -Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Oct 29 18:03:13 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 18:03:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] unfused disconnect before service disconnect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd look at 230.90, 230.91 and 230.94. I don't think you can argue that the outside disconnect in this scenario is not the service disconnecting means when it is not service rated. you would have unprotected service conductors on the line and load side of the device. I have just made it a practice to only allow service rated enclosures for all supply side interconnections. I think it is the most conservative approach. Not having enough physical space is definitely frustrating. Jason Szumlanski On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 1:04 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Lloyd, > I see what you are saying. Although in 250.24, it seems that they are > expecting this first disconnect to have overcurrent protection and be the > service disconnecting means. So what if the first disconnect does not have > overcurrent protection? I am assuming the "service disconnect" is the first > point of overcurrent protection for the service. What I am thinking of is > similar to the disconnect allowed on the line side of the meter (230.82 > (3)), although this one is on the load side of the meter. > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > > On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 12:03 PM Lloyd Hoffstatter < > lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com> wrote: > >> Dave, >> Looking at 2014, NEC 250.24(B) FPN and exhibits tends to imply bonding at >> first means of disconnect. This also minimizes potential ground loops. >> Best regards, >> Lloyd Hoffstatter >> Sunstruck Consulting >> >> Get Outlook for iOS >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Dave Tedeyan >> *Sent:* Thursday, October 29, 2020 9:56:47 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] unfused disconnect before service disconnect >> >> I'm looking to the hive mind here to see if others can weigh in on an >> issue I am having with an inspector. Grid tied PV system, with a line side >> tap in an automatic transfer switch. There is an outdoor utility required >> system disconnect right next to the transfer switch. But there was not >> enough physical space to get something that was service rated with >> overcurrent protection. So we installed a QO200TR, which is a tiny switch >> that looks like a circuit breaker, is rated at 60A, but does not actually >> have overcurrent protection. Then just inside the basement is the service >> disconnect with the neutral ground bond, etc. The inspector is telling me >> to bond the neutral and ground in the outdoor unfused disconnect, and >> remove it in the disconnect in the basement. >> >> I am having trouble finding a code reference. Does anyone know of one >> showing that the unfused disconnect is not the service point even though it >> comes first? Or is this not something that is allowed? We are on NEC 2017 >> here in NY.. >> . >> Thanks! >> -Dave >> >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com >> >> >> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design >> Certified B-Corporation since 2013 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarj at me.com Mon Nov 2 10:18:29 2020 From: solarj at me.com (Jason Kechijian) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 10:18:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing Message-ID: <144F47FF-0064-4B8A-B236-E08741998E09@me.com> Hey wrenches, Does anyone have any guidance to which values to use when testing open circuit voltage on bi-facial modules, considering you take the temperature reading from the cell vs. the back sheet? Also, what would be the correct module Voc to use since there are values for both the front and back? 405W Module: Front/Back Pmpp: 405 / 285 Vmpp: 40.89 / 41.10 Impp: 9.91 / 6.94 Voc: 48.42 / 46.99 Isc: 10.38 / 7.28 Module efficiency: 19.7% / 13.9% Temp coefficient Pmpp: -0.3528%/ºC Temp coefficient Isc: +0.0400%/ºC Temp coefficient Voc: -0.2769%/ºC Nominal: 44+/-2ºC I was using the front Voc and Voc temp coefficient, but I am getting some results which are not in line with the 5% of expected. Jason D. Kechijian, LEED AP NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 10:25:20 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 08:25:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing In-Reply-To: <144F47FF-0064-4B8A-B236-E08741998E09@me.com> References: <144F47FF-0064-4B8A-B236-E08741998E09@me.com> Message-ID: <50543918-A062-456F-AC6D-6970C793F71A@gmail.com> Hi Jason, What are you seeing in terms of measurements? Temp air/module Voc Irradiance Etc Jay Peltz power > On Nov 2, 2020, at 8:18 AM, Jason Kechijian wrote: > > Hey wrenches, > > Does anyone have any guidance to which values to use when testing open circuit voltage on bi-facial modules, considering you take the temperature reading from the cell vs. the back sheet? Also, what would be the correct module Voc to use since there are values for both the front and back? > > 405W Module: Front/Back > Pmpp: 405 / 285 > Vmpp: 40.89 / 41.10 > Impp: 9.91 / 6.94 > Voc: 48.42 / 46.99 > Isc: 10.38 / 7.28 > Module efficiency: 19.7% / 13.9% > Temp coefficient Pmpp: -0.3528%/ºC > Temp coefficient Isc: +0.0400%/ºC > Temp coefficient Voc: -0.2769%/ºC > Nominal: 44+/-2ºC > > I was using the front Voc and Voc temp coefficient, but I am getting some results which are not in line with the 5% of expected. > > Jason D. Kechijian, LEED AP > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Nov 2 11:41:21 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2020 08:41:21 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing In-Reply-To: <144F47FF-0064-4B8A-B236-E08741998E09@me.com> References: <144F47FF-0064-4B8A-B236-E08741998E09@me.com> Message-ID: <4af9d868a899895ed1fd8ad15ba0ff2e@127.0.0.1> I am curious why you care? Is it close to maxing out cold weather Voc for one more panel in the string? If so I would be conservative and use one less panel. I have an old Sanyo Bi Array and it pretty much has never gone outside the cold weather Voc that is logged by the controller. The 600v mppt just cranks out the power when the snow is off the array. It does pretty well also when the snow is on it. Just curious what you are doing? Testing used panels to make sure they are good? If so I would line them all up exactly the same and have a second set of eyes to record it all. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 2 Nov 2020 10:18:29 -0500, Jason Kechijian wrote: > Hey wrenches, > > Does anyone have any guidance to which values to use when testing open > circuit voltage on bi-facial modules, considering you take the temperature > reading from the cell vs. the back sheet? Also, what would be the correct > module Voc to use since there are values for both the front and back? > > 405W Module: Front/Back > Pmpp: 405 / 285 > Vmpp: 40.89 / 41.10 > Impp: 9.91 / 6.94 > Voc: 48.42 / 46.99 > Isc: 10.38 / 7.28 > Module efficiency: 19.7% / 13.9% > Temp coefficient Pmpp: -0.3528%/ºC > Temp coefficient Isc: +0.0400%/ºC > Temp coefficient Voc: -0.2769%/ºC > Nominal: 44+/-2ºC > > I was using the front Voc and Voc temp coefficient, but I am getting some > results which are not in line with the 5% of expected. > > Jason D. Kechijian, LEED AP > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From brian at solarenergy.org Mon Nov 2 11:53:43 2020 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 09:53:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing In-Reply-To: <50543918-A062-456F-AC6D-6970C793F71A@gmail.com> References: <144F47FF-0064-4B8A-B236-E08741998E09@me.com> <50543918-A062-456F-AC6D-6970C793F71A@gmail.com> Message-ID: I second Jay's request for some numbers, I'm curious about this not having participated directly in any bifacial projects yet. The difference in Voc and Vmp ratios is interesting. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Mon, Nov 2, 2020 at 8:55 AM Jay wrote: > Hi Jason, > > What are you seeing in terms of measurements? > > Temp air/module > Voc > Irradiance > Etc > > Jay > Peltz power > > > > On Nov 2, 2020, at 8:18 AM, Jason Kechijian wrote: > > > > Hey wrenches, > > > > Does anyone have any guidance to which values to use when testing open > circuit voltage on bi-facial modules, considering you take the temperature > reading from the cell vs. the back sheet? Also, what would be the correct > module Voc to use since there are values for both the front and back? > > > > 405W Module: Front/Back > > Pmpp: 405 / 285 > > Vmpp: 40.89 / 41.10 > > Impp: 9.91 / 6.94 > > Voc: 48.42 / 46.99 > > Isc: 10.38 / 7.28 > > Module efficiency: 19.7% / 13.9% > > Temp coefficient Pmpp: -0.3528%/ºC > > Temp coefficient Isc: +0.0400%/ºC > > Temp coefficient Voc: -0.2769%/ºC > > Nominal: 44+/-2ºC > > > > I was using the front Voc and Voc temp coefficient, but I am getting > some results which are not in line with the 5% of expected. > > > > Jason D. Kechijian, LEED AP > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarj at me.com Tue Nov 3 10:50:39 2020 From: solarj at me.com (Jason Kechijian) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 10:50:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9CA1F999-800B-4E6C-9E60-674E2416AF65@me.com> Hey Jay and Brian, System: 2p SAT Mods/String: 27 Measurements taken on average of CB Ambient: ~23ºC Module: 21.4ºC Wind: moderate Irradiance: 500W/m2 Expected Voc: 1,320.37 Testing based on IEC 62446 Measured Voc on a range of 9 string combiner: 1251 - 1271. 1251 being the only string in the CB at less than 5% of expected, which I am sure the wind had some effects. All voltages in the CB were +/- 1.5% of the adjacent. I’ll share more results as the come in from the field. The questions: Which of the two Vocs should we use? The average of the two? Since we are not taking the BOM temp measurements from a back sheet, but rather a cell. What does the thermal effect of glass play on the temperature reading vs. the back sheet. (May be wording this wrong, but I think y’all get the point) I have searched the inter webs and not found much guidance/support in particular to this query. Jason Kechijian > > > Hey wrenches, > > Does anyone have any guidance to which values to use when testing open circuit voltage on bi-facial modules, considering you take the temperature reading from the cell vs. the back sheet? Also, what would be the correct module Voc to use since there are values for both the front and back? > > 405W Module: Front/Back > Pmpp: 405 / 285 > Vmpp: 40.89 / 41.10 > Impp: 9.91 / 6.94 > Voc: 48.42 / 46.99 > Isc: 10.38 / 7.28 > Module efficiency: 19.7% / 13.9% > Temp coefficient Pmpp: -0.3528%/?C > Temp coefficient Isc: +0.0400%/?C > Temp coefficient Voc: -0.2769%/?C > Nominal: 44+/-2?C > > I was using the front Voc and Voc temp coefficient, but I am getting some results which are not in line with the 5% of expected. > > Jason D. Kechijian, LEED AP > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional? > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 08:25:20 -0700 > From: Jay > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing > Message-ID: <50543918-A062-456F-AC6D-6970C793F71A at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Hi Jason, > > What are you seeing in terms of measurements? > > Temp air/module > Voc > Irradiance > Etc > > Jay > Peltz power > > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2020 08:41:21 -0800 > From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > To: "RE-wrenches" > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing > Message-ID: <4af9d868a899895ed1fd8ad15ba0ff2e at 127.0.0.1> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > I am curious why you care? Is it close to maxing out cold weather Voc for > one more panel in the string? If so I would be conservative and use one > less panel. > > I have an old Sanyo Bi Array and it pretty much has never gone outside the > cold weather Voc that is logged by the controller. The 600v mppt just > cranks out the power when the snow is off the array. It does pretty well > also when the snow is on it. > > Just curious what you are doing? Testing used panels to make sure they are > good? If so I would line them all up exactly the same and have a second set > of eyes to record it all. > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 09:53:43 -0700 > From: Brian Mehalic > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I second Jay's request for some numbers, I'm curious about this not having > participated directly in any bifacial projects yet. The difference in Voc > and Vmp ratios is interesting. > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional? R031508-59 > National Electrical Code? CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > SEI Professional Services > http://www.seisolarpros.com > > > > On Mon, Nov 2, 2020 at 8:55 AM Jay wrote: > >> Hi Jason, >> >> What are you seeing in terms of measurements? >> >> Temp air/module >> Voc >> Irradiance >> Etc >> >> Jay >> Peltz power >> >> >>> On Nov 2, 2020, at 8:18 AM, Jason Kechijian wrote: >>> >>> ?Hey wrenches, >>> >>> Does anyone have any guidance to which values to use when testing open >> circuit voltage on bi-facial modules, considering you take the temperature >> reading from the cell vs. the back sheet? Also, what would be the correct >> module Voc to use since there are values for both the front and back? >>> >>> 405W Module: Front/Back >>> Pmpp: 405 / 285 >>> Vmpp: 40.89 / 41.10 >>> Impp: 9.91 / 6.94 >>> Voc: 48.42 / 46.99 >>> Isc: 10.38 / 7.28 >>> Module efficiency: 19.7% / 13.9% >>> Temp coefficient Pmpp: -0.3528%/?C >>> Temp coefficient Isc: +0.0400%/?C >>> Temp coefficient Voc: -0.2769%/?C >>> Nominal: 44+/-2?C >>> >>> I was using the front Voc and Voc temp coefficient, but I am getting >> some results which are not in line with the 5% of expected. >>> >>> Jason D. Kechijian, LEED AP >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional? >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ------------------------------ > > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 367 > ******************************************** From brian at solarenergy.org Tue Nov 3 12:32:25 2020 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 10:32:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing In-Reply-To: <9CA1F999-800B-4E6C-9E60-674E2416AF65@me.com> References: <9CA1F999-800B-4E6C-9E60-674E2416AF65@me.com> Message-ID: A few more questions: Can you attach the spec sheet? Does it show curves at different irradiances? What was the time of day (or was it just cloudy?). How are you measuring the cell temp? Brian > On Nov 3, 2020, at 8:50 AM, Jason Kechijian wrote: > Hey Jay and Brian, > > System: 2p SAT > Mods/String: 27 > > Measurements taken on average of CB > Ambient: ~23ºC > Module: 21.4ºC > Wind: moderate > Irradiance: 500W/m2 > > Expected Voc: 1,320.37 > > Testing based on IEC 62446 > Measured Voc on a range of 9 string combiner: 1251 - 1271. 1251 being the only string in the CB at less than 5% of expected, which I am sure the wind had some effects. All voltages in the CB were +/- 1.5% of the adjacent. > > I’ll share more results as the come in from the field. > > The questions: > Which of the two Vocs should we use? The average of the two? > Since we are not taking the BOM temp measurements from a back sheet, but rather a cell. What does the thermal effect of glass play on the temperature reading vs. the back sheet. (May be wording this wrong, but I think y’all get the point) > > I have searched the inter webs and not found much guidance/support in particular to this query. > > > Jason Kechijian > > >> >> >> Hey wrenches, >> >> Does anyone have any guidance to which values to use when testing open circuit voltage on bi-facial modules, considering you take the temperature reading from the cell vs. the back sheet? Also, what would be the correct module Voc to use since there are values for both the front and back? >> >> 405W Module: Front/Back >> Pmpp: 405 / 285 >> Vmpp: 40.89 / 41.10 >> Impp: 9.91 / 6.94 >> Voc: 48.42 / 46.99 >> Isc: 10.38 / 7.28 >> Module efficiency: 19.7% / 13.9% >> Temp coefficient Pmpp: -0.3528%/?C >> Temp coefficient Isc: +0.0400%/?C >> Temp coefficient Voc: -0.2769%/?C >> Nominal: 44+/-2?C >> >> I was using the front Voc and Voc temp coefficient, but I am getting some results which are not in line with the 5% of expected. >> >> Jason D. Kechijian, LEED AP >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional? >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 08:25:20 -0700 >> From: Jay >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing >> Message-ID: <50543918-A062-456F-AC6D-6970C793F71A at gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >> >> Hi Jason, >> >> What are you seeing in terms of measurements? >> >> Temp air/module >> Voc >> Irradiance >> Etc >> >> Jay >> Peltz power >> >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2020 08:41:21 -0800 >> From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> To: "RE-wrenches" >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing >> Message-ID: <4af9d868a899895ed1fd8ad15ba0ff2e at 127.0.0.1> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 >> >> I am curious why you care? Is it close to maxing out cold weather Voc for >> one more panel in the string? If so I would be conservative and use one >> less panel. >> >> I have an old Sanyo Bi Array and it pretty much has never gone outside the >> cold weather Voc that is logged by the controller. The 600v mppt just >> cranks out the power when the snow is off the array. It does pretty well >> also when the snow is on it. >> >> Just curious what you are doing? Testing used panels to make sure they are >> good? If so I would line them all up exactly the same and have a second set >> of eyes to record it all. >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 09:53:43 -0700 >> From: Brian Mehalic >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> I second Jay's request for some numbers, I'm curious about this not having >> participated directly in any bifacial projects yet. The difference in Voc >> and Vmp ratios is interesting. >> >> Brian Mehalic >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional? R031508-59 >> National Electrical Code? CMP-4 Member >> (520) 204-6639 >> >> Solar Energy International >> http://www.solarenergy.org >> >> SEI Professional Services >> http://www.seisolarpros.com >> >> >> >>> On Mon, Nov 2, 2020 at 8:55 AM Jay wrote: >>> Hi Jason, >>> What are you seeing in terms of measurements? >>> Temp air/module >>> Voc >>> Irradiance >>> Etc >>> Jay >>> Peltz power >>>> On Nov 2, 2020, at 8:18 AM, Jason Kechijian wrote: >>>> ?Hey wrenches, >>>> Does anyone have any guidance to which values to use when testing open >>> circuit voltage on bi-facial modules, considering you take the temperature >>> reading from the cell vs. the back sheet? Also, what would be the correct >>> module Voc to use since there are values for both the front and back? >>>> 405W Module: Front/Back >>>> Pmpp: 405 / 285 >>>> Vmpp: 40.89 / 41.10 >>>> Impp: 9.91 / 6.94 >>>> Voc: 48.42 / 46.99 >>>> Isc: 10.38 / 7.28 >>>> Module efficiency: 19.7% / 13.9% >>>> Temp coefficient Pmpp: -0.3528%/?C >>>> Temp coefficient Isc: +0.0400%/?C >>>> Temp coefficient Voc: -0.2769%/?C >>>> Nominal: 44+/-2?C >>>> I was using the front Voc and Voc temp coefficient, but I am getting >>> some results which are not in line with the 5% of expected. >>>> Jason D. Kechijian, LEED AP >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional? >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >>> other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 367 >> ******************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Nov 3 12:55:41 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 09:55:41 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing In-Reply-To: <9CA1F999-800B-4E6C-9E60-674E2416AF65@me.com> References: <9CA1F999-800B-4E6C-9E60-674E2416AF65@me.com> Message-ID: I see your question now a bit more clearly. As usual it brings up a new one. How low is the winter temp for location? Off the cuff I would use the manufacture data and it is good because it is higher than you measured at 23C. Any guidance from panel manufacturer who is? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 3 Nov 2020 10:50:39 -0500, Jason Kechijian wrote: > Hey Jay and Brian, > > System: 2p SAT > Mods/String: 27 > > Measurements taken on average of CB > Ambient: ~23ºC > Module: 21.4ºC > Wind: moderate > Irradiance: 500W/m2 > > Expected Voc: 1,320.37 > > Testing based on IEC 62446 > Measured Voc on a range of 9 string combiner: 1251 - 1271. 1251 being the > only string in the CB at less than 5% of expected, which I am sure the wind > had some effects. All voltages in the CB were +/- 1.5% of the adjacent. > > I’ll share more results as the come in from the field. > > The questions: > Which of the two Vocs should we use? The average of the two? > Since we are not taking the BOM temp measurements from a back sheet, but > rather a cell. What does the thermal effect of glass play on the > temperature reading vs. the back sheet. (May be wording this wrong, but I > think y’all get the point) > > I have searched the inter webs and not found much guidance/support in > particular to this query. > > > Jason Kechijian > > >> >> >> Hey wrenches, >> >> Does anyone have any guidance to which values to use when testing open >> circuit voltage on bi-facial modules, considering you take the >> temperature reading from the cell vs. the back sheet? Also, what would be >> the correct module Voc to use since there are values for both the front >> and back? >> >> 405W Module: Front/Back >> Pmpp: 405 / 285 >> Vmpp: 40.89 / 41.10 >> Impp: 9.91 / 6.94 >> Voc: 48.42 / 46.99 >> Isc: 10.38 / 7.28 >> Module efficiency: 19.7% / 13.9% >> Temp coefficient Pmpp: -0.3528%/?C >> Temp coefficient Isc: +0.0400%/?C >> Temp coefficient Voc: -0.2769%/?C >> Nominal: 44+/-2?C >> >> I was using the front Voc and Voc temp coefficient, but I am getting >> some results which are not in line with the 5% of expected. >> >> Jason D. Kechijian, LEED AP >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional? >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 08:25:20 -0700 >> From: Jay >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing >> Message-ID: <50543918-A062-456F-AC6D-6970C793F71A at gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >> >> Hi Jason, >> >> What are you seeing in terms of measurements? >> >> Temp air/module >> Voc >> Irradiance >> Etc >> >> Jay >> Peltz power >> >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2020 08:41:21 -0800 >> From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> To: "RE-wrenches" >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing >> Message-ID: <4af9d868a899895ed1fd8ad15ba0ff2e at 127.0.0.1> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 >> >> I am curious why you care? Is it close to maxing out cold weather Voc >> for >> one more panel in the string? If so I would be conservative and use one >> less panel. >> >> I have an old Sanyo Bi Array and it pretty much has never gone outside >> the >> cold weather Voc that is logged by the controller. The 600v mppt just >> cranks out the power when the snow is off the array. It does pretty well >> also when the snow is on it. >> >> Just curious what you are doing? Testing used panels to make sure they >> are >> good? If so I would line them all up exactly the same and have a second >> set >> of eyes to record it all. >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 09:53:43 -0700 >> From: Brian Mehalic >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> I second Jay's request for some numbers, I'm curious about this not >> having >> participated directly in any bifacial projects yet. The difference in >> Voc >> and Vmp ratios is interesting. >> >> Brian Mehalic >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional? R031508-59 >> National Electrical Code? CMP-4 Member >> (520) 204-6639 >> >> Solar Energy International >> http://www.solarenergy.org >> >> SEI Professional Services >> http://www.seisolarpros.com >> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 2, 2020 at 8:55 AM Jay wrote: >> >>> Hi Jason, >>> >>> What are you seeing in terms of measurements? >>> >>> Temp air/module >>> Voc >>> Irradiance >>> Etc >>> >>> Jay >>> Peltz power >>> >>> >>>> On Nov 2, 2020, at 8:18 AM, Jason Kechijian wrote: >>>> >>>> ?Hey wrenches, >>>> >>>> Does anyone have any guidance to which values to use when testing open >>> circuit voltage on bi-facial modules, considering you take the >>> temperature >>> reading from the cell vs. the back sheet? Also, what would be the >>> correct >>> module Voc to use since there are values for both the front and back? >>>> >>>> 405W Module: Front/Back >>>> Pmpp: 405 / 285 >>>> Vmpp: 40.89 / 41.10 >>>> Impp: 9.91 / 6.94 >>>> Voc: 48.42 / 46.99 >>>> Isc: 10.38 / 7.28 >>>> Module efficiency: 19.7% / 13.9% >>>> Temp coefficient Pmpp: -0.3528%/?C >>>> Temp coefficient Isc: +0.0400%/?C >>>> Temp coefficient Voc: -0.2769%/?C >>>> Nominal: 44+/-2?C >>>> >>>> I was using the front Voc and Voc temp coefficient, but I am getting >>> some results which are not in line with the 5% of expected. >>>> >>>> Jason D. Kechijian, LEED AP >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the >>> other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 367 >> ******************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From brian at solarenergy.org Tue Nov 3 14:52:18 2020 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 12:52:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing In-Reply-To: References: <9CA1F999-800B-4E6C-9E60-674E2416AF65@me.com> Message-ID: Hey Jason, IEC 62446-1 allows for: Testing Voc of a single module and using that to calc the target string voltage and "For systems with multiple identical strings and where there is stable irradiance conditions, voltages between strings can be compared" Regardless, it would be interesting to have a test on a single mod (well some number of single mods). What meter are you using, and has it been calibrated recently? Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 10:32 AM Brian Mehalic wrote: > A few more questions: > > Can you attach the spec sheet? Does it show curves at different > irradiances? > > What was the time of day (or was it just cloudy?). > > How are you measuring the cell temp? > > Brian > > > On Nov 3, 2020, at 8:50 AM, Jason Kechijian wrote: > > Hey Jay and Brian, > > > > System: 2p SAT > > Mods/String: 27 > > > > Measurements taken on average of CB > > Ambient: ~23ºC > > Module: 21.4ºC > > Wind: moderate > > Irradiance: 500W/m2 > > > > Expected Voc: 1,320.37 > > > > Testing based on IEC 62446 > > Measured Voc on a range of 9 string combiner: 1251 - 1271. 1251 being > the only string in the CB at less than 5% of expected, which I am sure the > wind had some effects. All voltages in the CB were +/- 1.5% of the adjacent. > > > > I’ll share more results as the come in from the field. > > > > The questions: > > Which of the two Vocs should we use? The average of the two? > > Since we are not taking the BOM temp measurements from a back sheet, but > rather a cell. What does the thermal effect of glass play on the > temperature reading vs. the back sheet. (May be wording this wrong, but I > think y’all get the point) > > > > I have searched the inter webs and not found much guidance/support in > particular to this query. > > > > > > Jason Kechijian > > > > > >> > >> > >> Hey wrenches, > >> > >> Does anyone have any guidance to which values to use when testing open > circuit voltage on bi-facial modules, considering you take the temperature > reading from the cell vs. the back sheet? Also, what would be the correct > module Voc to use since there are values for both the front and back? > >> > >> 405W Module: Front/Back > >> Pmpp: 405 / 285 > >> Vmpp: 40.89 / 41.10 > >> Impp: 9.91 / 6.94 > >> Voc: 48.42 / 46.99 > >> Isc: 10.38 / 7.28 > >> Module efficiency: 19.7% / 13.9% > >> Temp coefficient Pmpp: -0.3528%/?C > >> Temp coefficient Isc: +0.0400%/?C > >> Temp coefficient Voc: -0.2769%/?C > >> Nominal: 44+/-2?C > >> > >> I was using the front Voc and Voc temp coefficient, but I am getting > some results which are not in line with the 5% of expected. > >> > >> Jason D. Kechijian, LEED AP > >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional? > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> Message: 2 > >> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 08:25:20 -0700 > >> From: Jay > >> To: RE-wrenches > >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing > >> Message-ID: <50543918-A062-456F-AC6D-6970C793F71A at gmail.com> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > >> > >> Hi Jason, > >> > >> What are you seeing in terms of measurements? > >> > >> Temp air/module > >> Voc > >> Irradiance > >> Etc > >> > >> Jay > >> Peltz power > >> > >> > >> Message: 3 > >> Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2020 08:41:21 -0800 > >> From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > >> To: "RE-wrenches" > >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing > >> Message-ID: <4af9d868a899895ed1fd8ad15ba0ff2e at 127.0.0.1> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > >> > >> I am curious why you care? Is it close to maxing out cold weather Voc > for > >> one more panel in the string? If so I would be conservative and use one > >> less panel. > >> > >> I have an old Sanyo Bi Array and it pretty much has never gone outside > the > >> cold weather Voc that is logged by the controller. The 600v mppt just > >> cranks out the power when the snow is off the array. It does pretty well > >> also when the snow is on it. > >> > >> Just curious what you are doing? Testing used panels to make sure they > are > >> good? If so I would line them all up exactly the same and have a second > set > >> of eyes to record it all. > >> > >> > >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > >> "we go where powerlines don't" > >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > >> text 209 813 0060 > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> Message: 4 > >> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 09:53:43 -0700 > >> From: Brian Mehalic > >> To: RE-wrenches > >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing > >> Message-ID: > >> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >> > >> I second Jay's request for some numbers, I'm curious about this not > having > >> participated directly in any bifacial projects yet. The difference in > Voc > >> and Vmp ratios is interesting. > >> > >> Brian Mehalic > >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional? R031508-59 > >> National Electrical Code? CMP-4 Member > >> (520) 204-6639 > >> > >> Solar Energy International > >> http://www.solarenergy.org > >> > >> SEI Professional Services > >> http://www.seisolarpros.com > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Mon, Nov 2, 2020 at 8:55 AM Jay wrote: > >>> Hi Jason, > >>> What are you seeing in terms of measurements? > >>> Temp air/module > >>> Voc > >>> Irradiance > >>> Etc > >>> Jay > >>> Peltz power > >>>> On Nov 2, 2020, at 8:18 AM, Jason Kechijian wrote: > >>>> ?Hey wrenches, > >>>> Does anyone have any guidance to which values to use when testing open > >>> circuit voltage on bi-facial modules, considering you take the > temperature > >>> reading from the cell vs. the back sheet? Also, what would be the > correct > >>> module Voc to use since there are values for both the front and back? > >>>> 405W Module: Front/Back > >>>> Pmpp: 405 / 285 > >>>> Vmpp: 40.89 / 41.10 > >>>> Impp: 9.91 / 6.94 > >>>> Voc: 48.42 / 46.99 > >>>> Isc: 10.38 / 7.28 > >>>> Module efficiency: 19.7% / 13.9% > >>>> Temp coefficient Pmpp: -0.3528%/?C > >>>> Temp coefficient Isc: +0.0400%/?C > >>>> Temp coefficient Voc: -0.2769%/?C > >>>> Nominal: 44+/-2?C > >>>> I was using the front Voc and Voc temp coefficient, but I am getting > >>> some results which are not in line with the 5% of expected. > >>>> Jason D. Kechijian, LEED AP > >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional? > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > >>> the other: > >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>>> List rules & etiquette: > >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the > >>> other: > >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> List rules & etiquette: > >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >> URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20201102/013a4e3f/attachment-0001.html > > > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> Subject: Digest Footer > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 367 > >> ******************************************** > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarj at me.com Tue Nov 3 15:18:06 2020 From: solarj at me.com (Jason Kechijian) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 15:18:06 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing In-Reply-To: References: <9CA1F999-800B-4E6C-9E60-674E2416AF65@me.com> Message-ID: Hey Brian, Following up on both sets of questions: Can you attach the spec sheet? Does it show curves at different irradiances? — ATTACHED What was the time of day (or was it just cloudy?). — ~11:00am How are you measuring the cell temp? — Fluke Temp gun (new battery) The string voltages were +/- 1.5% of adjacent Meter — Hioki CM4374 (calibrated recently) Testing a single module, while ideal, is not practical unless we run into issues. I should have the ~480 strings worth of measured data back later today. > On Nov 3, 2020, at 2:52 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > > Hey Jason, IEC 62446-1 allows for: > > Testing Voc of a single module and using that to calc the target string voltage > and > "For systems with multiple identical strings and where there is stable irradiance conditions, voltages between strings can be compared" > > Regardless, it would be interesting to have a test on a single mod (well some number of single mods). > > What meter are you using, and has it been calibrated recently? > > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > SEI Professional Services > http://www.seisolarpros.com > > > > On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 10:32 AM Brian Mehalic > wrote: > A few more questions: > > Can you attach the spec sheet? Does it show curves at different irradiances? > > What was the time of day (or was it just cloudy?). > > How are you measuring the cell temp? > > Brian > > > On Nov 3, 2020, at 8:50 AM, Jason Kechijian > wrote: > > Hey Jay and Brian, > > > > System: 2p SAT > > Mods/String: 27 > > > > Measurements taken on average of CB > > Ambient: ~23ºC > > Module: 21.4ºC > > Wind: moderate > > Irradiance: 500W/m2 > > > > Expected Voc: 1,320.37 > > > > Testing based on IEC 62446 > > Measured Voc on a range of 9 string combiner: 1251 - 1271. 1251 being the only string in the CB at less than 5% of expected, which I am sure the wind had some effects. All voltages in the CB were +/- 1.5% of the adjacent. > > > > I’ll share more results as the come in from the field. > > > > The questions: > > Which of the two Vocs should we use? The average of the two? > > Since we are not taking the BOM temp measurements from a back sheet, but rather a cell. What does the thermal effect of glass play on the temperature reading vs. the back sheet. (May be wording this wrong, but I think y’all get the point) > > > > I have searched the inter webs and not found much guidance/support in particular to this query. > > > > > > Jason Kechijian > > > > > >> > >> > >> Hey wrenches, > >> > >> Does anyone have any guidance to which values to use when testing open circuit voltage on bi-facial modules, considering you take the temperature reading from the cell vs. the back sheet? Also, what would be the correct module Voc to use since there are values for both the front and back? > >> > >> 405W Module: Front/Back > >> Pmpp: 405 / 285 > >> Vmpp: 40.89 / 41.10 > >> Impp: 9.91 / 6.94 > >> Voc: 48.42 / 46.99 > >> Isc: 10.38 / 7.28 > >> Module efficiency: 19.7% / 13.9% > >> Temp coefficient Pmpp: -0.3528%/?C > >> Temp coefficient Isc: +0.0400%/?C > >> Temp coefficient Voc: -0.2769%/?C > >> Nominal: 44+/-2?C > >> > >> I was using the front Voc and Voc temp coefficient, but I am getting some results which are not in line with the 5% of expected. > >> > >> Jason D. Kechijian, LEED AP > >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional? > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> Message: 2 > >> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 08:25:20 -0700 > >> From: Jay > > >> To: RE-wrenches > > >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing > >> Message-ID: <50543918-A062-456F-AC6D-6970C793F71A at gmail.com > > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > >> > >> Hi Jason, > >> > >> What are you seeing in terms of measurements? > >> > >> Temp air/module > >> Voc > >> Irradiance > >> Etc > >> > >> Jay > >> Peltz power > >> > >> > >> Message: 3 > >> Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2020 08:41:21 -0800 > >> From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > >> To: "RE-wrenches" > > >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing > >> Message-ID: <4af9d868a899895ed1fd8ad15ba0ff2e at 127.0.0.1 > > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > >> > >> I am curious why you care? Is it close to maxing out cold weather Voc for > >> one more panel in the string? If so I would be conservative and use one > >> less panel. > >> > >> I have an old Sanyo Bi Array and it pretty much has never gone outside the > >> cold weather Voc that is logged by the controller. The 600v mppt just > >> cranks out the power when the snow is off the array. It does pretty well > >> also when the snow is on it. > >> > >> Just curious what you are doing? Testing used panels to make sure they are > >> good? If so I would line them all up exactly the same and have a second set > >> of eyes to record it all. > >> > >> > >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > >> "we go where powerlines don't" > >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > >> text 209 813 0060 > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> Message: 4 > >> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 09:53:43 -0700 > >> From: Brian Mehalic > > >> To: RE-wrenches > > >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing > >> Message-ID: > >> > > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >> > >> I second Jay's request for some numbers, I'm curious about this not having > >> participated directly in any bifacial projects yet. The difference in Voc > >> and Vmp ratios is interesting. > >> > >> Brian Mehalic > >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional? R031508-59 > >> National Electrical Code? CMP-4 Member > >> (520) 204-6639 > >> > >> Solar Energy International > >> http://www.solarenergy.org > >> > >> SEI Professional Services > >> http://www.seisolarpros.com > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Mon, Nov 2, 2020 at 8:55 AM Jay > wrote: > >>> Hi Jason, > >>> What are you seeing in terms of measurements? > >>> Temp air/module > >>> Voc > >>> Irradiance > >>> Etc > >>> Jay > >>> Peltz power > >>>> On Nov 2, 2020, at 8:18 AM, Jason Kechijian > wrote: > >>>> ?Hey wrenches, > >>>> Does anyone have any guidance to which values to use when testing open > >>> circuit voltage on bi-facial modules, considering you take the temperature > >>> reading from the cell vs. the back sheet? Also, what would be the correct > >>> module Voc to use since there are values for both the front and back? > >>>> 405W Module: Front/Back > >>>> Pmpp: 405 / 285 > >>>> Vmpp: 40.89 / 41.10 > >>>> Impp: 9.91 / 6.94 > >>>> Voc: 48.42 / 46.99 > >>>> Isc: 10.38 / 7.28 > >>>> Module efficiency: 19.7% / 13.9% > >>>> Temp coefficient Pmpp: -0.3528%/?C > >>>> Temp coefficient Isc: +0.0400%/?C > >>>> Temp coefficient Voc: -0.2769%/?C > >>>> Nominal: 44+/-2?C > >>>> I was using the front Voc and Voc temp coefficient, but I am getting > >>> some results which are not in line with the 5% of expected. > >>>> Jason D. Kechijian, LEED AP > >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional? > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > >>> the other: > >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>>> List rules & etiquette: > >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > >>> other: > >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> List rules & etiquette: > >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >> URL: > > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> Subject: Digest Footer > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 367 > >> ******************************************** > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Tue Nov 3 15:27:27 2020 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 13:27:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would recommend testing the temp gun against other sensors like a thermocouple and the DAS if it’s available. Brian > On Nov 3, 2020, at 1:18 PM, Jason Kechijian wrote: > > Hey Brian, > > Following up on both sets of questions: > > Can you attach the spec sheet? Does it show curves at different irradiances? — ATTACHED > > What was the time of day (or was it just cloudy?). — ~11:00am > > How are you measuring the cell temp? — Fluke Temp gun (new battery) > > The string voltages were +/- 1.5% of adjacent > > Meter — Hioki CM4374 (calibrated recently) > > Testing a single module, while ideal, is not practical unless we run into issues. I should have the ~480 strings worth of measured data back later today. > > >> On Nov 3, 2020, at 2:52 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: >> >> Hey Jason, IEC 62446-1 allows for: >> >> Testing Voc of a single module and using that to calc the target string voltage >> and >> "For systems with multiple identical strings and where there is stable irradiance conditions, voltages between strings can be compared" >> >> Regardless, it would be interesting to have a test on a single mod (well some number of single mods). >> >> What meter are you using, and has it been calibrated recently? >> >> >> Brian Mehalic >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >> (520) 204-6639 >> >> Solar Energy International >> http://www.solarenergy.org >> >> SEI Professional Services >> http://www.seisolarpros.com >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 10:32 AM Brian Mehalic wrote: >>> A few more questions: >>> >>> Can you attach the spec sheet? Does it show curves at different irradiances? >>> >>> What was the time of day (or was it just cloudy?). >>> >>> How are you measuring the cell temp? >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> > On Nov 3, 2020, at 8:50 AM, Jason Kechijian wrote: >>> > Hey Jay and Brian, >>> > >>> > System: 2p SAT >>> > Mods/String: 27 >>> > >>> > Measurements taken on average of CB >>> > Ambient: ~23ºC >>> > Module: 21.4ºC >>> > Wind: moderate >>> > Irradiance: 500W/m2 >>> > >>> > Expected Voc: 1,320.37 >>> > >>> > Testing based on IEC 62446 >>> > Measured Voc on a range of 9 string combiner: 1251 - 1271. 1251 being the only string in the CB at less than 5% of expected, which I am sure the wind had some effects. All voltages in the CB were +/- 1.5% of the adjacent. >>> > >>> > I’ll share more results as the come in from the field. >>> > >>> > The questions: >>> > Which of the two Vocs should we use? The average of the two? >>> > Since we are not taking the BOM temp measurements from a back sheet, but rather a cell. What does the thermal effect of glass play on the temperature reading vs. the back sheet. (May be wording this wrong, but I think y’all get the point) >>> > >>> > I have searched the inter webs and not found much guidance/support in particular to this query. >>> > >>> > >>> > Jason Kechijian >>> > >>> > >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Hey wrenches, >>> >> >>> >> Does anyone have any guidance to which values to use when testing open circuit voltage on bi-facial modules, considering you take the temperature reading from the cell vs. the back sheet? Also, what would be the correct module Voc to use since there are values for both the front and back? >>> >> >>> >> 405W Module: Front/Back >>> >> Pmpp: 405 / 285 >>> >> Vmpp: 40.89 / 41.10 >>> >> Impp: 9.91 / 6.94 >>> >> Voc: 48.42 / 46.99 >>> >> Isc: 10.38 / 7.28 >>> >> Module efficiency: 19.7% / 13.9% >>> >> Temp coefficient Pmpp: -0.3528%/?C >>> >> Temp coefficient Isc: +0.0400%/?C >>> >> Temp coefficient Voc: -0.2769%/?C >>> >> Nominal: 44+/-2?C >>> >> >>> >> I was using the front Voc and Voc temp coefficient, but I am getting some results which are not in line with the 5% of expected. >>> >> >>> >> Jason D. Kechijian, LEED AP >>> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional? >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> ------------------------------ >>> >> >>> >> Message: 2 >>> >> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 08:25:20 -0700 >>> >> From: Jay >>> >> To: RE-wrenches >>> >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing >>> >> Message-ID: <50543918-A062-456F-AC6D-6970C793F71A at gmail.com> >>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >>> >> >>> >> Hi Jason, >>> >> >>> >> What are you seeing in terms of measurements? >>> >> >>> >> Temp air/module >>> >> Voc >>> >> Irradiance >>> >> Etc >>> >> >>> >> Jay >>> >> Peltz power >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Message: 3 >>> >> Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2020 08:41:21 -0800 >>> >> From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> >> To: "RE-wrenches" >>> >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing >>> >> Message-ID: <4af9d868a899895ed1fd8ad15ba0ff2e at 127.0.0.1> >>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 >>> >> >>> >> I am curious why you care? Is it close to maxing out cold weather Voc for >>> >> one more panel in the string? If so I would be conservative and use one >>> >> less panel. >>> >> >>> >> I have an old Sanyo Bi Array and it pretty much has never gone outside the >>> >> cold weather Voc that is logged by the controller. The 600v mppt just >>> >> cranks out the power when the snow is off the array. It does pretty well >>> >> also when the snow is on it. >>> >> >>> >> Just curious what you are doing? Testing used panels to make sure they are >>> >> good? If so I would line them all up exactly the same and have a second set >>> >> of eyes to record it all. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> >> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> >> text 209 813 0060 >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> ------------------------------ >>> >> >>> >> Message: 4 >>> >> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 09:53:43 -0700 >>> >> From: Brian Mehalic >>> >> To: RE-wrenches >>> >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial Open Circuit voltage testing >>> >> Message-ID: >>> >> >>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >> >>> >> I second Jay's request for some numbers, I'm curious about this not having >>> >> participated directly in any bifacial projects yet. The difference in Voc >>> >> and Vmp ratios is interesting. >>> >> >>> >> Brian Mehalic >>> >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional? R031508-59 >>> >> National Electrical Code? CMP-4 Member >>> >> (520) 204-6639 >>> >> >>> >> Solar Energy International >>> >> http://www.solarenergy.org >>> >> >>> >> SEI Professional Services >>> >> http://www.seisolarpros.com >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 2, 2020 at 8:55 AM Jay wrote: >>> >>> Hi Jason, >>> >>> What are you seeing in terms of measurements? >>> >>> Temp air/module >>> >>> Voc >>> >>> Irradiance >>> >>> Etc >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> Peltz power >>> >>>> On Nov 2, 2020, at 8:18 AM, Jason Kechijian wrote: >>> >>>> ?Hey wrenches, >>> >>>> Does anyone have any guidance to which values to use when testing open >>> >>> circuit voltage on bi-facial modules, considering you take the temperature >>> >>> reading from the cell vs. the back sheet? Also, what would be the correct >>> >>> module Voc to use since there are values for both the front and back? >>> >>>> 405W Module: Front/Back >>> >>>> Pmpp: 405 / 285 >>> >>>> Vmpp: 40.89 / 41.10 >>> >>>> Impp: 9.91 / 6.94 >>> >>>> Voc: 48.42 / 46.99 >>> >>>> Isc: 10.38 / 7.28 >>> >>>> Module efficiency: 19.7% / 13.9% >>> >>>> Temp coefficient Pmpp: -0.3528%/?C >>> >>>> Temp coefficient Isc: +0.0400%/?C >>> >>>> Temp coefficient Voc: -0.2769%/?C >>> >>>> Nominal: 44+/-2?C >>> >>>> I was using the front Voc and Voc temp coefficient, but I am getting >>> >>> some results which are not in line with the 5% of expected. >>> >>>> Jason D. Kechijian, LEED AP >>> >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional? >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> >>> the other: >>> >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>> >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >>> >>> other: >>> >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- >>> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> >> URL: >>> >> >>> >> ------------------------------ >>> >> >>> >> Subject: Digest Footer >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >> >>> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> List rules & etiquette: >>> >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >> >>> >> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> ------------------------------ >>> >> >>> >> End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 367 >>> >> ******************************************** >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 17:52:14 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 17:52:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aurora PVI 4.2 inverter Message-ID: Hi All, Does anyone know if any manufacturer is currently responsible for warranty issues of 2013 Aurora PVI 4.2-OUTD-S-US inverters? I don't remember if this is an "ungrounded" inverter, but in any case, if it needs replacement, what are the code rules for replacing it with a different inverter? I believe it isn't required to upgrade to RSD equipment since it is just a repair. Any suggestions for a good replacement that will reasonably match the PVI's input DC voltage specs? Thanks, Howie *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich at solartechvt.com Tue Nov 3 18:01:17 2020 From: rich at solartechvt.com (Rich Nicol) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 18:01:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aurora PVI 4.2 inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Howie ABB (now Fimer) 1-877-261-1374. They typically require specific photos for warranty. Error code 031 is common. Junk arc fault detector that require upgrade also common. Thanks Rich Sent from my iPad > On Nov 3, 2020, at 5:52 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > >  > Hi All, > Does anyone know if any manufacturer is currently responsible for warranty issues of 2013 Aurora PVI 4.2-OUTD-S-US inverters? > I don't remember if this is an "ungrounded" inverter, but in any case, if it needs replacement, what are the code rules for replacing it with a different inverter? I believe it isn't required to upgrade to RSD equipment since it is just a repair. Any suggestions for a good replacement that will reasonably match the PVI's input DC voltage specs? > Thanks, > Howie > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 13:06:31 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 11:06:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] factory module damage, has anyone seen this? Message-ID: HI All, I have some Canadian Solar bifacial BiHiKu 400 watt 72 cell modules that are bent from the factory. There is no pallet damage, and the bend is the same top and bottom. My question is has anyone seen this before? I this normal? CS says its within spec which seems BS to me. What should I ask for from CS? What about return shipping cost, would this be something that I’d have to pay or CS? So far they have offered $.10 per watt. What would you all do? thanks in advance jay Peltz Power -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0924.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 555128 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0922.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 499595 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Nov 4 16:45:36 2020 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 14:45:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] factory module damage, has anyone seen this? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004d01d6b2f3$d5754dc0$805fe940$@solarwork.com> If they are Canadian maybe they are pre-flexed for snow load. Those crafty Canadians! Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2020 11:07 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] factory module damage, has anyone seen this? HI All, I have some Canadian Solar bifacial BiHiKu 400 watt 72 cell modules that are bent from the factory. There is no pallet damage, and the bend is the same top and bottom. My question is has anyone seen this before? I this normal? CS says its within spec which seems BS to me. What should I ask for from CS? What about return shipping cost, would this be something that I’d have to pay or CS? So far they have offered $.10 per watt. What would you all do? thanks in advance jay Peltz Power -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 241954 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 202229 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 16:52:42 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 14:52:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] factory module damage, has anyone seen this? In-Reply-To: <004d01d6b2f3$d5754dc0$805fe940$@solarwork.com> References: <004d01d6b2f3$d5754dc0$805fe940$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <4E25880D-5147-400F-B096-515FFF8A7CD8@gmail.com> Hi Dana. I did think of that ( all kidding aside)but given the response from CS, I don’t think it’s normal. Weird to even think how you’d assemble it. Is the glass prebent or the frame or both? I did hear from someone offsite they’d seen it on REC. Jay > On Nov 4, 2020, at 2:45 PM, Dana Orzel wrote: > >  > If they are Canadian maybe they are pre-flexed for snow load. Those crafty Canadians! > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay > Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2020 11:07 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] factory module damage, has anyone seen this? > > HI All, > > I have some Canadian Solar bifacial BiHiKu 400 watt 72 cell modules that are bent from the factory. > > There is no pallet damage, and the bend is the same top and bottom. > > My question is has anyone seen this before? I this normal? > CS says its within spec which seems BS to me. > What should I ask for from CS? > > What about return shipping cost, would this be something that I’d have to pay or CS? > > So far they have offered $.10 per watt. > > What would you all do? > > thanks in advance > > jay > > Peltz Power > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Nov 4 17:29:59 2020 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 15:29:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] factory module damage, has anyone seen this? In-Reply-To: <4E25880D-5147-400F-B096-515FFF8A7CD8@gmail.com> References: <004d01d6b2f3$d5754dc0$805fe940$@solarwork.com> <4E25880D-5147-400F-B096-515FFF8A7CD8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006101d6b2fa$08c8bdf0$1a5a39d0$@solarwork.com> I have never seen pre-flexed modules. I would expect your supplier to replace & collect them freight prepaid or not ever deal with them. That is not new spec equipment. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2020 2:53 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] factory module damage, has anyone seen this? Hi Dana. I did think of that ( all kidding aside)but given the response from CS, I don’t think it’s normal. Weird to even think how you’d assemble it. Is the glass prebent or the frame or both? I did hear from someone offsite they’d seen it on REC. Jay On Nov 4, 2020, at 2:45 PM, Dana Orzel wrote:  If they are Canadian maybe they are pre-flexed for snow load. Those crafty Canadians! Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2020 11:07 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] factory module damage, has anyone seen this? HI All, I have some Canadian Solar bifacial BiHiKu 400 watt 72 cell modules that are bent from the factory. There is no pallet damage, and the bend is the same top and bottom. My question is has anyone seen this before? I this normal? CS says its within spec which seems BS to me. What should I ask for from CS? What about return shipping cost, would this be something that I’d have to pay or CS? So far they have offered $.10 per watt. What would you all do? thanks in advance jay Peltz Power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Nov 4 20:59:32 2020 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 17:59:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] factory module damage, has anyone seen this? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8d82d47f-a573-29c3-5868-c142e0fb4c4d@psln.com> Jay,             More details would help.  How many is "some"?  Were there just a couple bent on a pallet of mostly flat ones?  Did you get less than a pallet and they were all bent like this? I always suspect the forklift driver, we've been "forked" many times. Maybe this time he backed into the pallet? Bill Taylorsville On 11/4/2020 10:06 AM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > I have some Canadian Solar bifacial BiHiKu 400 watt 72 cell modules > that are bent from the factory. > > There is no pallet damage, and the bend is the same top and bottom. > > My question is has anyone seen this before? I this normal? > CS says its within spec which seems BS to me. > What should I ask for from CS? > > What about return shipping cost, would this be something that I’d have > to pay or CS? > > So far they have offered $.10 per watt. > > What would you all do? > > thanks in advance > > jay > > Peltz Power > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0924.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 555128 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0922.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 499595 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 23:03:28 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 20:03:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] factory module damage, has anyone seen this? In-Reply-To: <004d01d6b2f3$d5754dc0$805fe940$@solarwork.com> References: <004d01d6b2f3$d5754dc0$805fe940$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Most likely your panels never saw Canadian soil as a large part of production are made in China so at a pretty high rate of production some have to slip by Jerry On Wed, Nov 4, 2020, 1:45 PM Dana Orzel wrote: > If they are Canadian maybe they are pre-flexed for snow load. Those crafty > Canadians! > > > > > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *jay > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 4, 2020 11:07 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] factory module damage, has anyone seen this? > > > > HI All, > > > > I have some Canadian Solar bifacial BiHiKu 400 watt 72 cell modules that > are bent from the factory. > > > > There is no pallet damage, and the bend is the same top and bottom. > > > > My question is has anyone seen this before? I this normal? > > CS says its within spec which seems BS to me. > > What should I ask for from CS? > > > > What about return shipping cost, would this be something that I’d have to > pay or CS? > > > > So far they have offered $.10 per watt. > > > > What would you all do? > > > > thanks in advance > > > > jay > > > > Peltz Power > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 241954 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 202229 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 202229 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 22:38:54 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 20:38:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] factory module damage, has anyone seen this? In-Reply-To: <8d82d47f-a573-29c3-5868-c142e0fb4c4d@psln.com> References: <8d82d47f-a573-29c3-5868-c142e0fb4c4d@psln.com> Message-ID: Hi Bill The whole pallet of 35. All are bent. They are on the pallet sideways, not vertically stacked. No damage to the cardboard box, or any packaging. All Oem packaging, full pallet. No damage to the modules, not a scratch. Equal bend to the top and bottom of the modules No damage to the pallet No gaps between modules, sides or top. I’m not sure if the pictures came through. I have talked with a friend who’s worked on a few hundred megawatts of install, he’s never seen this. So far Canadian solar has said nothing but that they are within spec ie it’s not a warranty issue. I’d say that it looks like I’m not going to get anything from them. No replacement, no discount. Fair warning to all about buying from them. Jay > On Nov 4, 2020, at 6:59 PM, frenergy wrote: > >  > Jay, > > More details would help. How many is "some"? Were there just a couple bent on a pallet of mostly flat ones? Did you get less than a pallet and they were all bent like this? I always suspect the forklift driver, we've been "forked" many times. Maybe this time he backed into the pallet? > > Bill > > Taylorsville > >> On 11/4/2020 10:06 AM, jay wrote: >> HI All, >> >> I have some Canadian Solar bifacial BiHiKu 400 watt 72 cell modules that are bent from the factory. >> >> There is no pallet damage, and the bend is the same top and bottom. >> >> My question is has anyone seen this before? I this normal? >> CS says its within spec which seems BS to me. >> What should I ask for from CS? >> >> What about return shipping cost, would this be something that I’d have to pay or CS? >> >> So far they have offered $.10 per watt. >> >> What would you all do? >> >> thanks in advance >> >> jay >> >> Peltz Power >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Thu Nov 5 00:09:41 2020 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2020 23:09:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Admin: factory module damage, has anyone seen this? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1604553015433.6021747552b8ecf8@re-wrenches.org> Hey gang, if you have any questions about this admin post please contact me off list. If you are responding to a post with photo files embedded in it, it is best to delete the files from your response before sending. This keeps us from having multiple duplicate files sent out to everyone. This is specially important when the files are large. Further, it is best to ATTACH your files when sending to the list rather than embedding photos or graphics within the text. This will eliminate the problem entirely and give us the choice of whether or not we view the files. Also along these lines, if responses to responses start to make the text lengthy, we can help out by eliminating old footers and/or signatures before sending. Not crucial, but certainly helpful in readability. jay wrote at 01:06 PM 11/4/2020: >HI All, > >I have some Canadian Solar bifacial BiHiKu 400 watt 72 cell modules that are bent from the factory. > >There is no pallet damage, and the bend is the same top and bottom. > >My question is has anyone seen this before? I this normal? >CS says its within spec which seems BS to me. >What should I ask for from CS? > >What about return shipping cost, would this be something that I’d have to pay or CS? > >So far they have offered $.10 per watt. > >What would you all do? > >thanks in advance > >jay > >Peltz Power From don at energysolarnow.com Thu Nov 5 00:19:13 2020 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don at energysolarnow.com) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2020 22:19:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aurora PVI 4.2 inverter Message-ID: <20201104221913.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.23fef5c64d.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 13:53:05 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2020 11:53:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] factory module damage, has anyone seen this? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wanted to give a final update as to this issue Canadian solar drew the line with “ it’s within tolerance, not a warranty issue” So I’m out of options from them. Quite disappointed and I won’t buy them again. My distributor was great and with their discount I feel a bit better. But any kind of return wasn’t on the table. Thanks Jay From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Nov 5 16:42:53 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2020 16:42:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] factory module damage, has anyone seen this? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would never accept this from my distributor. It would be going back with a full refund or I'd take my business elsewhere. My distributor would never accept this from a manufacturer I would think. That's the whole benefit of having a middleman - they are paid to deal with these kinds of issue! Jason On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 3:36 PM Jay wrote: > I wanted to give a final update as to this issue > > Canadian solar drew the line with “ it’s within tolerance, not a warranty > issue” > > So I’m out of options from them. Quite disappointed and I won’t buy them > again. > > My distributor was great and with their discount I feel a bit better. > > But any kind of return wasn’t on the table. > > Thanks > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Nov 5 20:54:10 2020 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2020 17:54:10 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] factory module damage, has anyone seen this? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67c303a8-8df1-4e6c-bc69-cbdc5f8e7541@psln.com> I think I'm going to have to side with Jason.  Many times my distributor has eaten crow for stuff like this and of course there has been times months after a delivery where I've found damage that I've had to eat.  Its the cost of doing business but if these were a fairly recent delivery, the distributor should help. $.02 worth Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 11/5/2020 1:42 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > I would never accept this from my distributor. It would be going back > with a full refund or I'd take my business elsewhere. My distributor > would never accept this from a manufacturer I would think. That's the > whole benefit of having a middleman - they are paid to deal with these > kinds of issue! > > Jason > > > > > > > * > > * > > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 3:36 PM Jay > wrote: > > I wanted to give a final update as to this issue > > Canadian solar drew the line with “ it’s within tolerance, not a > warranty issue” > > So I’m out of options from them. Quite disappointed and I won’t > buy them again. > > My distributor was great and with their discount I feel a bit better. > > But any kind of return wasn’t on the table. > > Thanks > > Jay > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 23:26:58 2020 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2020 23:26:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bad Diodes in QCells? Message-ID: Wrenchers, Wondering if anyone has had any experience with bad diodes in QCell panels. Two of our projects this summer had panels that were putting out half of their rated voltage. At first it seemed like it was a defect from the factory, and it was caught upon commissioning the system, but I'm now seeing that another panel has gone bad about two months after install. I've spoken with a few distributors and they said they haven't heard anything about this being a pattern. I'm in the RMA process with QCell, and don't feel like I'm getting complete transparency from them. So far we have 8 defective panels out of 300. It was in two different projects that were months apart. I'm not sure if they were from the same shipment or not. All of them were Q.PEAK DUO 400 watt panels. Interested to know if anyone else is having similar experiences? Thanks for any thoughts. Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 09:09:20 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 07:09:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] factory module damage, has anyone seen this? Message-ID: Hi all  I hear what folks are saying about what my distributor should do and I’m caught. Because the OEM says it’s not a warranty issue and it’s not shipping damage. The distributor is caught in the middle. Distributor cut me what I think is a good deal. I can send them back on my dime and get another pallet. That’s $1400+ for shipping and my time. Drive to town pay the forklift guy wait all day to meet the truck on both delivery and pickup. Which is another $.11 watt. Vs the $.13 discount that my distributor is giving me. Taken together is a $.24 per watt savings. So I take it the other way. The distributor is really helping me out. And I’ll be sure to give the distributor more biz. But I won’t buy CS again and you can be sure I’ll bad mouth them for years. It would have be nothing for them to cut me a deal. It shouldn’t have been the distributor who did. I haven’t stated the distributor specifically because there are many of you that feel they have done me wrong. I disagree and I don’t want them trashed. Jay > On Nov 5, 2020, at 2:55 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >  > I would never accept this from my distributor. It would be going back with a full refund or I'd take my business elsewhere. My distributor would never accept this from a manufacturer I would think. That's the whole benefit of having a middleman - they are paid to deal with these kinds of issue! > > Jason > > > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 3:36 PM Jay wrote: >> I wanted to give a final update as to this issue >> >> Canadian solar drew the line with “ it’s within tolerance, not a warranty issue” >> >> So I’m out of options from them. Quite disappointed and I won’t buy them again. >> >> My distributor was great and with their discount I feel a bit better. >> >> But any kind of return wasn’t on the table. >> >> Thanks >> >> Jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.wongstrom at thirstylakesolar.com Fri Nov 6 12:37:39 2020 From: jeff.wongstrom at thirstylakesolar.com (Jeff Wongstrom) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 10:37:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bad Diodes in QCells? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <12A76915-EB53-4E87-92DE-35101D128260@thirstylakesolar.com> Adam, I had a similar experience with four QCell modules on two different jobs. Underperforming modules with low voltages at installation. Q.Peak Duo 325. Replaced under QCell warranty by credit to distributor. No labor compensation. Jeff Jeff Wongstrom NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed MT Residential Electrician 406.291.3416 thirstylakesolar.com > On Nov 5, 2020, at 9:26 PM, AE Solar > wrote: > > Wrenchers, > Wondering if anyone has had any experience with bad diodes in QCell panels. Two of our projects this summer had panels that were putting out half of their rated voltage. At first it seemed like it was a defect from the factory, and it was caught upon commissioning the system, but I'm now seeing that another panel has gone bad about two months after install. I've spoken with a few distributors and they said they haven't heard anything about this being a pattern. I'm in the RMA process with QCell, and don't feel like I'm getting complete transparency from them. So far we have 8 defective panels out of 300. It was in two different projects that were months apart. I'm not sure if they were from the same shipment or not. All of them were Q.PEAK DUO 400 watt panels. Interested to know if anyone else is having similar experiences? Thanks for any thoughts. > Adam > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > PO Box 1245 > Kingston, NY 12402 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > _ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: LOGO.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5311 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 12:45:51 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 12:45:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AEE Solar Message-ID: Does anyone know what's going on with AEE Solar? I've been trying to get in touch with anyone there and all the numbers I have used in the past as well as their published numbers get routed to Sunrun and they don't know anything. Thanks, Howie *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bryan at pv-cables.com Fri Nov 6 12:49:25 2020 From: Bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 09:49:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AEE Solar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <011f01d6b465$2b73e340$825ba9c0$@pv-cables.com> They closed their offices in Sacramento after Covid, I was told and everyone is working from home these days. Not sure about their phone tree. Bryan Norkunas bryan at pv-cables.com Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140 PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com Description: Description: cid:image002.jpg at 01CD22E8.974B6470 Please print only if necessary. NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Friday, November 6, 2020 9:46 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] AEE Solar Does anyone know what's going on with AEE Solar? I've been trying to get in touch with anyone there and all the numbers I have used in the past as well as their published numbers get routed to Sunrun and they don't know anything. Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Image removed by sender. Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 27561 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1367 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Fri Nov 6 12:59:26 2020 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 10:59:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] factory module damage, has anyone seen this? In-Reply-To: <004d01d6b2f3$d5754dc0$805fe940$@solarwork.com> References: <004d01d6b2f3$d5754dc0$805fe940$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <93E178D2-D10E-478B-8AE5-5FD0C137CBC6@skyfireenergy.com> If they say it is within spec, and can show you paperwork showing that it is, then you got what you ordered. Perhaps it is “pre-flexed” for loading. Those are pretty tall/long mods. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 > On Nov 4, 2020, at 2:45 PM, Dana Orzel wrote: > > If they are Canadian maybe they are pre-flexed for snow load. Those crafty Canadians! > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay > Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2020 11:07 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] factory module damage, has anyone seen this? > > HI All, > > I have some Canadian Solar bifacial BiHiKu 400 watt 72 cell modules that are bent from the factory. > > There is no pallet damage, and the bend is the same top and bottom. > > My question is has anyone seen this before? I this normal? > CS says its within spec which seems BS to me. > What should I ask for from CS? > > What about return shipping cost, would this be something that I’d have to pay or CS? > > So far they have offered $.10 per watt. > > What would you all do? > > thanks in advance > > jay > > Peltz Power > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Fri Nov 6 12:50:22 2020 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 11:50:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bad Diodes in QCells? In-Reply-To: <12A76915-EB53-4E87-92DE-35101D128260@thirstylakesolar.com> References: <12A76915-EB53-4E87-92DE-35101D128260@thirstylakesolar.com> Message-ID: <035201d6b465$4cda7490$e68f5db0$@solarcentex.com> I just had four defective 390-watt 72-cell modules that were bad out of the box. I immediately thought it was an optimizer issue because in eight years, I've never had four modules go bad, let alone four from one box. My distributor put me in contact with Q-Cells and he was great taking info just today so we'll see what the warranty process looks like. His info is Ben Kuttesch Ben.kuttesch at us.q-cells.com 615-438-4805 I hope this is not a precursor to lots of in-field warranty work for diodes that fail prematurely.because unlike SolarEdge and Enphase there is no "truck roll" reimbursement from what I can tell. Scot Arey Solar CenTex From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jeff Wongstrom Sent: Friday, November 6, 2020 11:38 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bad Diodes in QCells? Adam, I had a similar experience with four QCell modules on two different jobs. Underperforming modules with low voltages at installation. Q.Peak Duo 325. Replaced under QCell warranty by credit to distributor. No labor compensation. Jeff Jeff Wongstrom NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed MT Residential Electrician 406.291.3416 thirstylakesolar.com On Nov 5, 2020, at 9:26 PM, AE Solar > wrote: Wrenchers, Wondering if anyone has had any experience with bad diodes in QCell panels. Two of our projects this summer had panels that were putting out half of their rated voltage. At first it seemed like it was a defect from the factory, and it was caught upon commissioning the system, but I'm now seeing that another panel has gone bad about two months after install. I've spoken with a few distributors and they said they haven't heard anything about this being a pattern. I'm in the RMA process with QCell, and don't feel like I'm getting complete transparency from them. So far we have 8 defective panels out of 300. It was in two different projects that were months apart. I'm not sure if they were from the same shipment or not. All of them were Q.PEAK DUO 400 watt panels. Interested to know if anyone else is having similar experiences? Thanks for any thoughts. Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 _ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5311 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Nov 6 13:45:14 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 13:45:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bad Diodes in QCells? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a client with one QCell 260W module that has been installed for a few years now and has (apparently) had a bad diode since inception (determined via microinverter readings). We concluded with the (thankfully reasonable) homeowner that it isn't worth the expense to investigate further or pursue warranty coverage. Other than that, no issues, but I have not installed a QCell in at least 2+ years. Jason Szumlanski On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 11:27 PM AE Solar wrote: > Wrenchers, > Wondering if anyone has had any experience with bad diodes in QCell > panels. Two of our projects this summer had panels that were putting out > half of their rated voltage. At first it seemed like it was a defect from > the factory, and it was caught upon commissioning the system, but I'm now > seeing that another panel has gone bad about two months after install. I've > spoken with a few distributors and they said they haven't heard anything > about this being a pattern. I'm in the RMA process with QCell, and don't > feel like I'm getting complete transparency from them. So far we have 8 > defective panels out of 300. It was in two different projects that were > months apart. I'm not sure if they were from the same shipment or not. All > of them were Q.PEAK DUO 400 watt panels. Interested to know if anyone > else is having similar experiences? Thanks for any thoughts. > Adam > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > PO Box 1245 > Kingston, NY 12402 > www.autonomousenergies.com > > (518) 567-1468 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 15:38:25 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 15:38:25 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bad Diodes in QCells? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Last year we serviced a system with a QCell with that the manufacturer deemed a “defective junction box”. Photo attached. I had never seen this before. Scary stuff. Luckily, on a ground mount in the middle of a field. Good reminder about DC arc fault mitigation. On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 3:00 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I have a client with one QCell 260W module that has been installed for a > few years now and has (apparently) had a bad diode since inception > (determined via microinverter readings). We concluded with the (thankfully > reasonable) homeowner that it isn't worth the expense to investigate > further or pursue warranty coverage. > > Other than that, no issues, but I have not installed a QCell in at least > 2+ years. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 11:27 PM AE Solar > wrote: > >> Wrenchers, >> Wondering if anyone has had any experience with bad diodes in QCell >> panels. Two of our projects this summer had panels that were putting out >> half of their rated voltage. At first it seemed like it was a defect from >> the factory, and it was caught upon commissioning the system, but I'm now >> seeing that another panel has gone bad about two months after install. I've >> spoken with a few distributors and they said they haven't heard anything >> about this being a pattern. I'm in the RMA process with QCell, and don't >> feel like I'm getting complete transparency from them. So far we have 8 >> defective panels out of 300. It was in two different projects that were >> months apart. I'm not sure if they were from the same shipment or not. All >> of them were Q.PEAK DUO 400 watt panels. Interested to know if anyone >> else is having similar experiences? Thanks for any thoughts. >> Adam >> >> Adam Katzman >> Autonomous Energies >> PO Box 1245 >> Kingston, NY 12402 >> www.autonomousenergies.com >> >> (518) 567-1468 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_2340.jpg Type: image/jpg Size: 18445 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Nov 6 18:11:07 2020 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 16:11:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AEE Phones on fritz Message-ID: <013801d6b492$1c952690$55bf73b0$@solarwork.com> I just spoke with Leslie Cannon at AEE. Their phone system is on the fritz. The IT people are working on it. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri Nov 6 23:19:06 2020 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 20:19:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AEE Phones on fritz In-Reply-To: <013801d6b492$1c952690$55bf73b0$@solarwork.com> References: <013801d6b492$1c952690$55bf73b0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <690f64ac-7773-eb13-7040-c5b0bc0deb96@psln.com> Happens all the time, pulling the string between those cans too tight.  It may not help in this instance but I've been communicating with Zena at AEE the last few days ala email without problems. Bill On 11/6/2020 3:11 PM, Dana Orzel wrote: > > I just spoke with Leslie Cannon at AEE. Their phone system is on the > fritz. The IT people are working on it. > > Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003                       dana at solarwork.com* > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > > _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" ___ > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sat Nov 7 08:19:37 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2020 08:19:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AEE Phones on fritz In-Reply-To: <690f64ac-7773-eb13-7040-c5b0bc0deb96@psln.com> References: <013801d6b492$1c952690$55bf73b0$@solarwork.com> <690f64ac-7773-eb13-7040-c5b0bc0deb96@psln.com> Message-ID: Thanks all! In all the years dealing with AEE, I've never had that happen before. Brad Bassett saw my note here and called to give me the cell number of my current inside sales rep. All set now. Howie On Fri, Nov 6, 2020, 11:18 PM frenergy wrote: > Happens all the time, pulling the string between those cans too tight. It > may not help in this instance but I've been communicating with Zena at AEE > the last few days ala email without problems. > > Bill > On 11/6/2020 3:11 PM, Dana Orzel wrote: > > I just spoke with Leslie Cannon at AEE. Their phone system is on the > fritz. The IT people are working on it. > > > > > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > > Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Nov 8 11:41:16 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2020 11:41:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Maybe this is a better example (attached). I don't see how this would be a problem under NEC 2014, 2017, or 2020. No portion of the main bus, feeder conductors, or subpanel could possibly be subjected to overcurrent without an OCPD stopping it. My point is that here we are, 3 code cycles in since feeder taps were addressed, and there is still no clarification of intent. AHJs are still struggling with this. I'm not sure where residential meter/mains with feed through lugs are popular. I know they are in Florida and I have heard Hawaii. I'm curious what your jurisdictions think of this if you have this scenario. Most of the time the subpanel is main lug only, but adding a main circuit breaker is usually an easy and cost-effective fix to make this interconnection type work. Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:15 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > For further discussion, I don't see how my original scenario is any > different from this attached scenario, which I think everyone would agree > is allowed. All conductors and busbars are subject to the same potential > loads and fault currents. > (Image attached). > > > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:01 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Of course the feeder conductors and bus bar could be subjected to a >> fault. But we're not talking about faults here. Fault protection is the job >> of the PV OCPD And primary supply OCPD to protect the downstream busbar and >> feeders. If that wasn't the case, you would need a new OCPD on BOTH the >> load and line side of a solar connection as a feeder tap, not just the load >> side. >> >> If your interpretation is correct regarding the location of the OCPD, >> that sounds like a sub-feed breaker is the only way to comply, and I >> haven't seen such an animal for a typical residential load center. You can >> get these for NQ panelboards and similar panelboards from other >> manufacturers of course. It doesn't say as close as practicable or anything >> like that. It says that a busbar connection is allowed when there are >> feeder CONDUCTORS connected to feed through LUGS. What does "overcurrent >> device .. *at* the supply end" mean? I emphasize "at." It's unclear how >> you would implement this other than a sub-feed breaker I suppose, but >> that's not what it says. It refers to feeder conductors on lugs on busbars, >> not feeder conductors on load-side terminals of an overcurrent device. >> >> My point is that 705.12 should have been wrapped up neatly in a bow, but >> the lack of clarity, still, is astonishing. Why add a section about >> feed-through lugs if it's going to be so vague? >> >> Jason >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 3:37 PM Brian Mehalic >> wrote: >> >>> Hey Jason, >>> Here's the 2020 text: >>> >>> 6) Connections shall be permitted on busbars of panelboards that supply >>> lugs connected to feed-through conductors. The feed-through conductors >>> shall be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)(1). Where an overcurrent device >>> is installed at the supply end of the feed-through conductors, the busbar >>> in the supplying panelboard shall be permitted to be sized in accordance >>> with 705.12(B)⁠(3)⁠(1) through 705.12(B)(3)(3). >>> >>> >>> The OCPD on the supply end of the feed-through conductors would be in >>> the form of a sub-feed breaker at the point of supply to those conductors, >>> re-establishing overcurrent protection of the conductors (likely at the >>> same ampacity as the main breaker in the supplying panel. The feed-through >>> conductors are basically an extension of the busbar in the supplying panel; >>> they can either be protected by the main, or in the presence of multiple >>> sources of power in the supplying panel (such as a backfed PV system >>> breaker) they can be protected based on (B)(3)(1) - "the 125% rule" - or >>> they can be protected by a new overcurrent device at their point of supply, >>> in which case current on them is limited based on that OCPD size; in this >>> latter scenario the busbar in the supplying panel is allowed to be sized >>> based on one of (B)(3)(1) - (3) because it is protected downstream at its >>> end. >>> >>> The theory is pretty much the same as 705.12(B)(1) for feeders - when >>> not connecting at the end of the feeder, use the "125% rule" or >>> re-establish overcurrent protection for that portion of the feeder subject >>> to multiple power sources. >>> >>> In your drawing the 200 A feeder conductors, as well as the busbar below >>> the PV system breaker, could be subject to > 200 A in the event of a fault >>> somewhere along those conductors. >>> >>> Brian Mehalic >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >>> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >>> (520) 204-6639 >>> >>> Solar Energy International >>> http://www.solarenergy.org >>> >>> >>> SEI Professional Services >>> http://www.seisolarpros.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:18 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Does anyone else think they botched the wording in this section? It's >>>> still not clear, and we have a ton of meter/main combos with feed-through >>>> lugs around here. >>>> >>>> Where is it written, "where an overcurrent device is installed at the *supply >>>> end* of the feed-through conductors," (emphasis added) are they >>>> referring to the solar backfed breaker on the busbar or another breaker >>>> somewhere along the feeder circuit? It goes on to state that the loads on >>>> the supplying busbar can comply with any method in 705.12(B)(3), which >>>> prescribes an OCPD at the load end of the feeder in 705.12(B)(3)(3), so >>>> they can't be talking about that. I have to assume it is the solar >>>> backfed breaker they are referencing. >>>> >>>> See my interpretation of one scenario in the attached image. >>>> >>>> We're a long way off from the 2020 code implementation here, but it can >>>> help sway plans examiners looking to clarify the intent of the 2014/2017 >>>> code cycles. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Feed Through Lug Interconnection Option (2).pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 34206 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Nov 8 12:02:31 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2020 10:02:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason My question is if it’s 200a in from the main breaker and 100a from PV its 300 amps on the buss correct? How is that ok with the 125% rule? Or is this covered by some other rule as it’s a feed through lug load center? Jay > On Nov 8, 2020, at 9:46 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >  > Maybe this is a better example (attached). I don't see how this would be a problem under NEC 2014, 2017, or 2020. No portion of the main bus, feeder conductors, or subpanel could possibly be subjected to overcurrent without an OCPD stopping it. > > My point is that here we are, 3 code cycles in since feeder taps were addressed, and there is still no clarification of intent. AHJs are still struggling with this. > > I'm not sure where residential meter/mains with feed through lugs are popular. I know they are in Florida and I have heard Hawaii. I'm curious what your jurisdictions think of this if you have this scenario. Most of the time the subpanel is main lug only, but adding a main circuit breaker is usually an easy and cost-effective fix to make this interconnection type work. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > >> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:15 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> For further discussion, I don't see how my original scenario is any different from this attached scenario, which I think everyone would agree is allowed. All conductors and busbars are subject to the same potential loads and fault currents. >> (Image attached). >> >> >> >>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:01 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> Of course the feeder conductors and bus bar could be subjected to a fault. But we're not talking about faults here. Fault protection is the job of the PV OCPD And primary supply OCPD to protect the downstream busbar and feeders. If that wasn't the case, you would need a new OCPD on BOTH the load and line side of a solar connection as a feeder tap, not just the load side. >>> >>> If your interpretation is correct regarding the location of the OCPD, that sounds like a sub-feed breaker is the only way to comply, and I haven't seen such an animal for a typical residential load center. You can get these for NQ panelboards and similar panelboards from other manufacturers of course. It doesn't say as close as practicable or anything like that. It says that a busbar connection is allowed when there are feeder CONDUCTORS connected to feed through LUGS. What does "overcurrent device .. at the supply end" mean? I emphasize "at." It's unclear how you would implement this other than a sub-feed breaker I suppose, but that's not what it says. It refers to feeder conductors on lugs on busbars, not feeder conductors on load-side terminals of an overcurrent device. >>> >>> My point is that 705.12 should have been wrapped up neatly in a bow, but the lack of clarity, still, is astonishing. Why add a section about feed-through lugs if it's going to be so vague? >>> >>> Jason >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 3:37 PM Brian Mehalic wrote: >>>> Hey Jason, >>>> Here's the 2020 text: >>>> >>>> 6) Connections shall be permitted on busbars of panelboards that supply lugs connected to feed-through conductors. The feed-through conductors shall be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)(1). Where an overcurrent device is installed at the supply end of the feed-through conductors, the busbar in the supplying panelboard shall be permitted to be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)⁠(3)⁠(1) through 705.12(B)(3)(3). >>>> >>>> The OCPD on the supply end of the feed-through conductors would be in the form of a sub-feed breaker at the point of supply to those conductors, re-establishing overcurrent protection of the conductors (likely at the same ampacity as the main breaker in the supplying panel. The feed-through conductors are basically an extension of the busbar in the supplying panel; they can either be protected by the main, or in the presence of multiple sources of power in the supplying panel (such as a backfed PV system breaker) they can be protected based on (B)(3)(1) - "the 125% rule" - or they can be protected by a new overcurrent device at their point of supply, in which case current on them is limited based on that OCPD size; in this latter scenario the busbar in the supplying panel is allowed to be sized based on one of (B)(3)(1) - (3) because it is protected downstream at its end. >>>> >>>> The theory is pretty much the same as 705.12(B)(1) for feeders - when not connecting at the end of the feeder, use the "125% rule" or re-establish overcurrent protection for that portion of the feeder subject to multiple power sources. >>>> >>>> In your drawing the 200 A feeder conductors, as well as the busbar below the PV system breaker, could be subject to > 200 A in the event of a fault somewhere along those conductors. >>>> >>>> Brian Mehalic >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >>>> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >>>> (520) 204-6639 >>>> >>>> Solar Energy International >>>> http://www.solarenergy.org >>>> >>>> SEI Professional Services >>>> http://www.seisolarpros.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:18 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>> Does anyone else think they botched the wording in this section? It's still not clear, and we have a ton of meter/main combos with feed-through lugs around here. >>>>> >>>>> Where is it written, "where an overcurrent device is installed at the supply end of the feed-through conductors," (emphasis added) are they referring to the solar backfed breaker on the busbar or another breaker somewhere along the feeder circuit? It goes on to state that the loads on the supplying busbar can comply with any method in 705.12(B)(3), which prescribes an OCPD at the load end of the feeder in 705.12(B)(3)(3), so they can't be talking about that. I have to assume it is the solar backfed breaker they are referencing. >>>>> >>>>> See my interpretation of one scenario in the attached image. >>>>> >>>>> We're a long way off from the 2020 code implementation here, but it can help sway plans examiners looking to clarify the intent of the 2014/2017 code cycles. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Nov 8 12:06:28 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2020 10:06:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <642E1F8D-D03B-4483-8B47-B3213A9821BB@gmail.com> I forgot to include that it’s assuming a 200amp buss. Maybe you stated earlier what the buss rating is of the upper load center if so I missed it. Jay > On Nov 8, 2020, at 10:02 AM, Jay wrote: > >  > Hi Jason > > My question is if it’s 200a in from the main breaker and 100a from PV its 300 amps on the buss correct? > > How is that ok with the 125% rule? > > Or is this covered by some other rule as it’s a feed through lug load center? > > Jay > > > >>> On Nov 8, 2020, at 9:46 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> >>  >> Maybe this is a better example (attached). I don't see how this would be a problem under NEC 2014, 2017, or 2020. No portion of the main bus, feeder conductors, or subpanel could possibly be subjected to overcurrent without an OCPD stopping it. >> >> My point is that here we are, 3 code cycles in since feeder taps were addressed, and there is still no clarification of intent. AHJs are still struggling with this. >> >> I'm not sure where residential meter/mains with feed through lugs are popular. I know they are in Florida and I have heard Hawaii. I'm curious what your jurisdictions think of this if you have this scenario. Most of the time the subpanel is main lug only, but adding a main circuit breaker is usually an easy and cost-effective fix to make this interconnection type work. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:15 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> For further discussion, I don't see how my original scenario is any different from this attached scenario, which I think everyone would agree is allowed. All conductors and busbars are subject to the same potential loads and fault currents. >>> (Image attached). >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:01 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>> Of course the feeder conductors and bus bar could be subjected to a fault. But we're not talking about faults here. Fault protection is the job of the PV OCPD And primary supply OCPD to protect the downstream busbar and feeders. If that wasn't the case, you would need a new OCPD on BOTH the load and line side of a solar connection as a feeder tap, not just the load side. >>>> >>>> If your interpretation is correct regarding the location of the OCPD, that sounds like a sub-feed breaker is the only way to comply, and I haven't seen such an animal for a typical residential load center. You can get these for NQ panelboards and similar panelboards from other manufacturers of course. It doesn't say as close as practicable or anything like that. It says that a busbar connection is allowed when there are feeder CONDUCTORS connected to feed through LUGS. What does "overcurrent device .. at the supply end" mean? I emphasize "at." It's unclear how you would implement this other than a sub-feed breaker I suppose, but that's not what it says. It refers to feeder conductors on lugs on busbars, not feeder conductors on load-side terminals of an overcurrent device. >>>> >>>> My point is that 705.12 should have been wrapped up neatly in a bow, but the lack of clarity, still, is astonishing. Why add a section about feed-through lugs if it's going to be so vague? >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 3:37 PM Brian Mehalic wrote: >>>>> Hey Jason, >>>>> Here's the 2020 text: >>>>> >>>>> 6) Connections shall be permitted on busbars of panelboards that supply lugs connected to feed-through conductors. The feed-through conductors shall be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)(1). Where an overcurrent device is installed at the supply end of the feed-through conductors, the busbar in the supplying panelboard shall be permitted to be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)⁠(3)⁠(1) through 705.12(B)(3)(3). >>>>> >>>>> The OCPD on the supply end of the feed-through conductors would be in the form of a sub-feed breaker at the point of supply to those conductors, re-establishing overcurrent protection of the conductors (likely at the same ampacity as the main breaker in the supplying panel. The feed-through conductors are basically an extension of the busbar in the supplying panel; they can either be protected by the main, or in the presence of multiple sources of power in the supplying panel (such as a backfed PV system breaker) they can be protected based on (B)(3)(1) - "the 125% rule" - or they can be protected by a new overcurrent device at their point of supply, in which case current on them is limited based on that OCPD size; in this latter scenario the busbar in the supplying panel is allowed to be sized based on one of (B)(3)(1) - (3) because it is protected downstream at its end. >>>>> >>>>> The theory is pretty much the same as 705.12(B)(1) for feeders - when not connecting at the end of the feeder, use the "125% rule" or re-establish overcurrent protection for that portion of the feeder subject to multiple power sources. >>>>> >>>>> In your drawing the 200 A feeder conductors, as well as the busbar below the PV system breaker, could be subject to > 200 A in the event of a fault somewhere along those conductors. >>>>> >>>>> Brian Mehalic >>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >>>>> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >>>>> (520) 204-6639 >>>>> >>>>> Solar Energy International >>>>> http://www.solarenergy.org >>>>> >>>>> SEI Professional Services >>>>> http://www.seisolarpros.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:18 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>> Does anyone else think they botched the wording in this section? It's still not clear, and we have a ton of meter/main combos with feed-through lugs around here. >>>>>> >>>>>> Where is it written, "where an overcurrent device is installed at the supply end of the feed-through conductors," (emphasis added) are they referring to the solar backfed breaker on the busbar or another breaker somewhere along the feeder circuit? It goes on to state that the loads on the supplying busbar can comply with any method in 705.12(B)(3), which prescribes an OCPD at the load end of the feeder in 705.12(B)(3)(3), so they can't be talking about that. I have to assume it is the solar backfed breaker they are referencing. >>>>>> >>>>>> See my interpretation of one scenario in the attached image. >>>>>> >>>>>> We're a long way off from the 2020 code implementation here, but it can help sway plans examiners looking to clarify the intent of the 2014/2017 code cycles. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Nov 8 12:46:42 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2020 12:46:42 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's a 200A bus. 300A "on" the bus doesn't matter. The total of all load and supply devices does not exceed the bus rating. This is 705.12(D)(2)(3)(c) in 2014/2017. In no way can the total ampacity on the 200A bus exceed 200A as long as additional loads are not added, hence the required warning label. Where would 300A of current ever flow? On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 12:30 PM Jay wrote: > Hi Jason > > My question is if it’s 200a in from the main breaker and 100a from PV its > 300 amps on the buss correct? > > How is that ok with the 125% rule? > > Or is this covered by some other rule as it’s a feed through lug load > center? > > Jay > > > > On Nov 8, 2020, at 9:46 AM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >  > Maybe this is a better example (attached). I don't see how this would be a > problem under NEC 2014, 2017, or 2020. No portion of the main bus, feeder > conductors, or subpanel could possibly be subjected to overcurrent without > an OCPD stopping it. > > My point is that here we are, 3 code cycles in since feeder taps were > addressed, and there is still no clarification of intent. AHJs are still > struggling with this. > > I'm not sure where residential meter/mains with feed through lugs are > popular. I know they are in Florida and I have heard Hawaii. I'm curious > what your jurisdictions think of this if you have this scenario. Most of > the time the subpanel is main lug only, but adding a main circuit breaker > is usually an easy and cost-effective fix to make this interconnection type > work. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:15 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> For further discussion, I don't see how my original scenario is any >> different from this attached scenario, which I think everyone would agree >> is allowed. All conductors and busbars are subject to the same potential >> loads and fault currents. >> (Image attached). >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:01 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> Of course the feeder conductors and bus bar could be subjected to a >>> fault. But we're not talking about faults here. Fault protection is the job >>> of the PV OCPD And primary supply OCPD to protect the downstream busbar and >>> feeders. If that wasn't the case, you would need a new OCPD on BOTH the >>> load and line side of a solar connection as a feeder tap, not just the load >>> side. >>> >>> If your interpretation is correct regarding the location of the OCPD, >>> that sounds like a sub-feed breaker is the only way to comply, and I >>> haven't seen such an animal for a typical residential load center. You can >>> get these for NQ panelboards and similar panelboards from other >>> manufacturers of course. It doesn't say as close as practicable or anything >>> like that. It says that a busbar connection is allowed when there are >>> feeder CONDUCTORS connected to feed through LUGS. What does "overcurrent >>> device .. *at* the supply end" mean? I emphasize "at." It's unclear how >>> you would implement this other than a sub-feed breaker I suppose, but >>> that's not what it says. It refers to feeder conductors on lugs on busbars, >>> not feeder conductors on load-side terminals of an overcurrent device. >>> >>> My point is that 705.12 should have been wrapped up neatly in a bow, but >>> the lack of clarity, still, is astonishing. Why add a section about >>> feed-through lugs if it's going to be so vague? >>> >>> Jason >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 3:37 PM Brian Mehalic >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hey Jason, >>>> Here's the 2020 text: >>>> >>>> 6) Connections shall be permitted on busbars of panelboards that >>>> supply lugs connected to feed-through conductors. The feed-through >>>> conductors shall be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)(1). Where an >>>> overcurrent device is installed at the supply end of the feed-through >>>> conductors, the busbar in the supplying panelboard shall be permitted to be >>>> sized in accordance with 705.12(B)⁠(3)⁠(1) through 705.12(B)(3)(3). >>>> >>>> >>>> The OCPD on the supply end of the feed-through conductors would be in >>>> the form of a sub-feed breaker at the point of supply to those conductors, >>>> re-establishing overcurrent protection of the conductors (likely at the >>>> same ampacity as the main breaker in the supplying panel. The feed-through >>>> conductors are basically an extension of the busbar in the supplying panel; >>>> they can either be protected by the main, or in the presence of multiple >>>> sources of power in the supplying panel (such as a backfed PV system >>>> breaker) they can be protected based on (B)(3)(1) - "the 125% rule" - or >>>> they can be protected by a new overcurrent device at their point of supply, >>>> in which case current on them is limited based on that OCPD size; in this >>>> latter scenario the busbar in the supplying panel is allowed to be sized >>>> based on one of (B)(3)(1) - (3) because it is protected downstream at its >>>> end. >>>> >>>> The theory is pretty much the same as 705.12(B)(1) for feeders - when >>>> not connecting at the end of the feeder, use the "125% rule" or >>>> re-establish overcurrent protection for that portion of the feeder subject >>>> to multiple power sources. >>>> >>>> In your drawing the 200 A feeder conductors, as well as the busbar >>>> below the PV system breaker, could be subject to > 200 A in the event of a >>>> fault somewhere along those conductors. >>>> >>>> Brian Mehalic >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >>>> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >>>> (520) 204-6639 >>>> >>>> Solar Energy International >>>> http://www.solarenergy.org >>>> >>>> >>>> SEI Professional Services >>>> http://www.seisolarpros.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:18 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Does anyone else think they botched the wording in this section? It's >>>>> still not clear, and we have a ton of meter/main combos with feed-through >>>>> lugs around here. >>>>> >>>>> Where is it written, "where an overcurrent device is installed at the *supply >>>>> end* of the feed-through conductors," (emphasis added) are they >>>>> referring to the solar backfed breaker on the busbar or another breaker >>>>> somewhere along the feeder circuit? It goes on to state that the loads on >>>>> the supplying busbar can comply with any method in 705.12(B)(3), which >>>>> prescribes an OCPD at the load end of the feeder in 705.12(B)(3)(3), so >>>>> they can't be talking about that. I have to assume it is the solar >>>>> backfed breaker they are referencing. >>>>> >>>>> See my interpretation of one scenario in the attached image. >>>>> >>>>> We're a long way off from the 2020 code implementation here, but it >>>>> can help sway plans examiners looking to clarify the intent of the >>>>> 2014/2017 code cycles. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> >>>> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Nov 8 12:51:53 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2020 12:51:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Correction... The PV OCPD would need to be 80A or less or the total loads would need to be 100A or less. It's the sum of the OCPD, not loads plus rated PV current. On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 12:46 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > It's a 200A bus. > > 300A "on" the bus doesn't matter. The total of all load and supply devices > does not exceed the bus rating. This is 705.12(D)(2)(3)(c) in 2014/2017. > > In no way can the total ampacity on the 200A bus exceed 200A as long as > additional loads are not added, hence the required warning label. Where > would 300A of current ever flow? > > On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 12:30 PM Jay wrote: > >> Hi Jason >> >> My question is if it’s 200a in from the main breaker and 100a from PV its >> 300 amps on the buss correct? >> >> How is that ok with the 125% rule? >> >> Or is this covered by some other rule as it’s a feed through lug load >> center? >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> On Nov 8, 2020, at 9:46 AM, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>  >> Maybe this is a better example (attached). I don't see how this would be >> a problem under NEC 2014, 2017, or 2020. No portion of the main bus, feeder >> conductors, or subpanel could possibly be subjected to overcurrent without >> an OCPD stopping it. >> >> My point is that here we are, 3 code cycles in since feeder taps were >> addressed, and there is still no clarification of intent. AHJs are still >> struggling with this. >> >> I'm not sure where residential meter/mains with feed through lugs are >> popular. I know they are in Florida and I have heard Hawaii. I'm curious >> what your jurisdictions think of this if you have this scenario. Most of >> the time the subpanel is main lug only, but adding a main circuit breaker >> is usually an easy and cost-effective fix to make this interconnection type >> work. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:15 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> For further discussion, I don't see how my original scenario is any >>> different from this attached scenario, which I think everyone would agree >>> is allowed. All conductors and busbars are subject to the same potential >>> loads and fault currents. >>> (Image attached). >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:01 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Of course the feeder conductors and bus bar could be subjected to a >>>> fault. But we're not talking about faults here. Fault protection is the job >>>> of the PV OCPD And primary supply OCPD to protect the downstream busbar and >>>> feeders. If that wasn't the case, you would need a new OCPD on BOTH the >>>> load and line side of a solar connection as a feeder tap, not just the load >>>> side. >>>> >>>> If your interpretation is correct regarding the location of the OCPD, >>>> that sounds like a sub-feed breaker is the only way to comply, and I >>>> haven't seen such an animal for a typical residential load center. You can >>>> get these for NQ panelboards and similar panelboards from other >>>> manufacturers of course. It doesn't say as close as practicable or anything >>>> like that. It says that a busbar connection is allowed when there are >>>> feeder CONDUCTORS connected to feed through LUGS. What does "overcurrent >>>> device .. *at* the supply end" mean? I emphasize "at." It's unclear >>>> how you would implement this other than a sub-feed breaker I suppose, but >>>> that's not what it says. It refers to feeder conductors on lugs on busbars, >>>> not feeder conductors on load-side terminals of an overcurrent device. >>>> >>>> My point is that 705.12 should have been wrapped up neatly in a bow, >>>> but the lack of clarity, still, is astonishing. Why add a section about >>>> feed-through lugs if it's going to be so vague? >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 3:37 PM Brian Mehalic >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hey Jason, >>>>> Here's the 2020 text: >>>>> >>>>> 6) Connections shall be permitted on busbars of panelboards that >>>>> supply lugs connected to feed-through conductors. The feed-through >>>>> conductors shall be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)(1). Where an >>>>> overcurrent device is installed at the supply end of the feed-through >>>>> conductors, the busbar in the supplying panelboard shall be permitted to be >>>>> sized in accordance with 705.12(B)⁠(3)⁠(1) through 705.12(B)(3)(3). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The OCPD on the supply end of the feed-through conductors would be in >>>>> the form of a sub-feed breaker at the point of supply to those conductors, >>>>> re-establishing overcurrent protection of the conductors (likely at the >>>>> same ampacity as the main breaker in the supplying panel. The feed-through >>>>> conductors are basically an extension of the busbar in the supplying panel; >>>>> they can either be protected by the main, or in the presence of multiple >>>>> sources of power in the supplying panel (such as a backfed PV system >>>>> breaker) they can be protected based on (B)(3)(1) - "the 125% rule" - or >>>>> they can be protected by a new overcurrent device at their point of supply, >>>>> in which case current on them is limited based on that OCPD size; in this >>>>> latter scenario the busbar in the supplying panel is allowed to be sized >>>>> based on one of (B)(3)(1) - (3) because it is protected downstream at its >>>>> end. >>>>> >>>>> The theory is pretty much the same as 705.12(B)(1) for feeders - when >>>>> not connecting at the end of the feeder, use the "125% rule" or >>>>> re-establish overcurrent protection for that portion of the feeder subject >>>>> to multiple power sources. >>>>> >>>>> In your drawing the 200 A feeder conductors, as well as the busbar >>>>> below the PV system breaker, could be subject to > 200 A in the event of a >>>>> fault somewhere along those conductors. >>>>> >>>>> Brian Mehalic >>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >>>>> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >>>>> (520) 204-6639 >>>>> >>>>> Solar Energy International >>>>> http://www.solarenergy.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> SEI Professional Services >>>>> http://www.seisolarpros.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:18 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Does anyone else think they botched the wording in this section? It's >>>>>> still not clear, and we have a ton of meter/main combos with feed-through >>>>>> lugs around here. >>>>>> >>>>>> Where is it written, "where an overcurrent device is installed at the *supply >>>>>> end* of the feed-through conductors," (emphasis added) are they >>>>>> referring to the solar backfed breaker on the busbar or another breaker >>>>>> somewhere along the feeder circuit? It goes on to state that the loads on >>>>>> the supplying busbar can comply with any method in 705.12(B)(3), which >>>>>> prescribes an OCPD at the load end of the feeder in 705.12(B)(3)(3), so >>>>>> they can't be talking about that. I have to assume it is the solar >>>>>> backfed breaker they are referencing. >>>>>> >>>>>> See my interpretation of one scenario in the attached image. >>>>>> >>>>>> We're a long way off from the 2020 code implementation here, but it >>>>>> can help sway plans examiners looking to clarify the intent of the >>>>>> 2014/2017 code cycles. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun Nov 8 12:58:27 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2020 12:58:27 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80c21907ea9caf38c8de4c6fb4d372c8@redwoodalliance.org> It depends on how many loads there are on the meter main besides the feed-through. If the PV feed is coming from a point between the distribution panel and the meter main, current will cancel out utility power from the service drop. If you had over 200 amps of branch circuit loads on the meter main, it could be a problem with the feed coming from both directions. --- On 2020-11-08 12:02, Jay wrote: > Hi Jason > > My question is if it's 200a in from the main breaker and 100a from PV its 300 amps on the buss correct? > > How is that ok with the 125% rule? > > Or is this covered by some other rule as it's a feed through lug load center? > > Jay > >> On Nov 8, 2020, at 9:46 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Maybe this is a better example (attached). I don't see how this would be a problem under NEC 2014, 2017, or 2020. No portion of the main bus, feeder conductors, or subpanel could possibly be subjected to overcurrent without an OCPD stopping it. > > My point is that here we are, 3 code cycles in since feeder taps were addressed, and there is still no clarification of intent. AHJs are still struggling with this. > > I'm not sure where residential meter/mains with feed through lugs are popular. I know they are in Florida and I have heard Hawaii. I'm curious what your jurisdictions think of this if you have this scenario. Most of the time the subpanel is main lug only, but adding a main circuit breaker is usually an easy and cost-effective fix to make this interconnection type work. > > Jason Szumlanski > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:15 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > For further discussion, I don't see how my original scenario is any different from this attached scenario, which I think everyone would agree is allowed. All conductors and busbars are subject to the same potential loads and fault currents. > (Image attached). > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:01 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Of course the feeder conductors and bus bar could be subjected to a fault. But we're not talking about faults here. Fault protection is the job of the PV OCPD And primary supply OCPD to protect the downstream busbar and feeders. If that wasn't the case, you would need a new OCPD on BOTH the load and line side of a solar connection as a feeder tap, not just the load side. > > If your interpretation is correct regarding the location of the OCPD, that sounds like a sub-feed breaker is the only way to comply, and I haven't seen such an animal for a typical residential load center. You can get these for NQ panelboards and similar panelboards from other manufacturers of course. It doesn't say as close as practicable or anything like that. It says that a busbar connection is allowed when there are feeder CONDUCTORS connected to feed through LUGS. What does "overcurrent device .. _at_ the supply end" mean? I emphasize "at." It's unclear how you would implement this other than a sub-feed breaker I suppose, but that's not what it says. It refers to feeder conductors on lugs on busbars, not feeder conductors on load-side terminals of an overcurrent device. > > My point is that 705.12 should have been wrapped up neatly in a bow, but the lack of clarity, still, is astonishing. Why add a section about feed-through lugs if it's going to be so vague? > > Jason > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 3:37 PM Brian Mehalic wrote: > Hey Jason, > Here's the 2020 text: > > 6) Connections shall be permitted on busbars of panelboards that supply lugs connected to feed-through conductors. The feed-through conductors shall be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)(1). Where an overcurrent device is installed at the supply end of the feed-through conductors, the busbar in the supplying panelboard shall be permitted to be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)⁠(3)⁠(1) through 705.12(B)(3)(3). > > The OCPD on the supply end of the feed-through conductors would be in the form of a sub-feed breaker at the point of supply to those conductors, re-establishing overcurrent protection of the conductors (likely at the same ampacity as the main breaker in the supplying panel. The feed-through conductors are basically an extension of the busbar in the supplying panel; they can either be protected by the main, or in the presence of multiple sources of power in the supplying panel (such as a backfed PV system breaker) they can be protected based on (B)(3)(1) - "the 125% rule" - or they can be protected by a new overcurrent device at their point of supply, in which case current on them is limited based on that OCPD size; in this latter scenario the busbar in the supplying panel is allowed to be sized based on one of (B)(3)(1) - (3) because it is protected downstream at its end. > > The theory is pretty much the same as 705.12(B)(1) for feeders - when not connecting at the end of the feeder, use the "125% rule" or re-establish overcurrent protection for that portion of the feeder subject to multiple power sources. > > In your drawing the 200 A feeder conductors, as well as the busbar below the PV system breaker, could be subject to > 200 A in the event of a fault somewhere along those conductors. > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional(tm) R031508-59 > National Electrical Code(R) CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org [1] > > SEI Professional Services > http://www.seisolarpros.com [2] > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:18 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Does anyone else think they botched the wording in this section? It's still not clear, and we have a ton of meter/main combos with feed-through lugs around here. > > Where is it written, "where an overcurrent device is installed at the _supply end_ of the feed-through conductors," (emphasis added) are they referring to the solar backfed breaker on the busbar or another breaker somewhere along the feeder circuit? It goes on to state that the loads on the supplying busbar can comply with any method in 705.12(B)(3), which prescribes an OCPD at the load end of the feeder in 705.12(B)(3)(3), so they can't be talking about that. I have to assume it is the solar backfed breaker they are referencing. > > See my interpretation of one scenario in the attached image. > > We're a long way off from the 2020 code implementation here, but it can help sway plans examiners looking to clarify the intent of the 2014/2017 code cycles. > > Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/b21acbbeee09b823ad85f3914f3c4e6948b3ed61?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.solarenergy.org&userId=1613865&signature=8ec85587a9fbe44e [2] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/16ff4b9d2b5a9ff30e778067c7a9f70657f436ad?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.seisolarpros.com&userId=1613865&signature=c8818c380f4375fb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Nov 8 13:36:34 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2020 13:36:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is the corrected drawing for the record. On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 12:51 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Correction... The PV OCPD would need to be 80A or less or the total loads > would need to be 100A or less. It's the sum of the OCPD, not loads plus > rated PV current. > > On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 12:46 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> It's a 200A bus. >> >> 300A "on" the bus doesn't matter. The total of all load and supply >> devices does not exceed the bus rating. This is 705.12(D)(2)(3)(c) in >> 2014/2017. >> >> In no way can the total ampacity on the 200A bus exceed 200A as long as >> additional loads are not added, hence the required warning label. Where >> would 300A of current ever flow? >> >> On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 12:30 PM Jay wrote: >> >>> Hi Jason >>> >>> My question is if it’s 200a in from the main breaker and 100a from PV >>> its 300 amps on the buss correct? >>> >>> How is that ok with the 125% rule? >>> >>> Or is this covered by some other rule as it’s a feed through lug load >>> center? >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> On Nov 8, 2020, at 9:46 AM, Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Maybe this is a better example (attached). I don't see how this would be >>> a problem under NEC 2014, 2017, or 2020. No portion of the main bus, feeder >>> conductors, or subpanel could possibly be subjected to overcurrent without >>> an OCPD stopping it. >>> >>> My point is that here we are, 3 code cycles in since feeder taps were >>> addressed, and there is still no clarification of intent. AHJs are still >>> struggling with this. >>> >>> I'm not sure where residential meter/mains with feed through lugs are >>> popular. I know they are in Florida and I have heard Hawaii. I'm curious >>> what your jurisdictions think of this if you have this scenario. Most of >>> the time the subpanel is main lug only, but adding a main circuit breaker >>> is usually an easy and cost-effective fix to make this interconnection type >>> work. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:15 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> For further discussion, I don't see how my original scenario is any >>>> different from this attached scenario, which I think everyone would agree >>>> is allowed. All conductors and busbars are subject to the same potential >>>> loads and fault currents. >>>> (Image attached). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:01 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Of course the feeder conductors and bus bar could be subjected to a >>>>> fault. But we're not talking about faults here. Fault protection is the job >>>>> of the PV OCPD And primary supply OCPD to protect the downstream busbar and >>>>> feeders. If that wasn't the case, you would need a new OCPD on BOTH the >>>>> load and line side of a solar connection as a feeder tap, not just the load >>>>> side. >>>>> >>>>> If your interpretation is correct regarding the location of the OCPD, >>>>> that sounds like a sub-feed breaker is the only way to comply, and I >>>>> haven't seen such an animal for a typical residential load center. You can >>>>> get these for NQ panelboards and similar panelboards from other >>>>> manufacturers of course. It doesn't say as close as practicable or anything >>>>> like that. It says that a busbar connection is allowed when there are >>>>> feeder CONDUCTORS connected to feed through LUGS. What does "overcurrent >>>>> device .. *at* the supply end" mean? I emphasize "at." It's unclear >>>>> how you would implement this other than a sub-feed breaker I suppose, but >>>>> that's not what it says. It refers to feeder conductors on lugs on busbars, >>>>> not feeder conductors on load-side terminals of an overcurrent device. >>>>> >>>>> My point is that 705.12 should have been wrapped up neatly in a bow, >>>>> but the lack of clarity, still, is astonishing. Why add a section about >>>>> feed-through lugs if it's going to be so vague? >>>>> >>>>> Jason >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 3:37 PM Brian Mehalic >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hey Jason, >>>>>> Here's the 2020 text: >>>>>> >>>>>> 6) Connections shall be permitted on busbars of panelboards that >>>>>> supply lugs connected to feed-through conductors. The feed-through >>>>>> conductors shall be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)(1). Where an >>>>>> overcurrent device is installed at the supply end of the feed-through >>>>>> conductors, the busbar in the supplying panelboard shall be permitted to be >>>>>> sized in accordance with 705.12(B)⁠(3)⁠(1) through 705.12(B)(3)(3). >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The OCPD on the supply end of the feed-through conductors would be in >>>>>> the form of a sub-feed breaker at the point of supply to those conductors, >>>>>> re-establishing overcurrent protection of the conductors (likely at the >>>>>> same ampacity as the main breaker in the supplying panel. The feed-through >>>>>> conductors are basically an extension of the busbar in the supplying panel; >>>>>> they can either be protected by the main, or in the presence of multiple >>>>>> sources of power in the supplying panel (such as a backfed PV system >>>>>> breaker) they can be protected based on (B)(3)(1) - "the 125% rule" - or >>>>>> they can be protected by a new overcurrent device at their point of supply, >>>>>> in which case current on them is limited based on that OCPD size; in this >>>>>> latter scenario the busbar in the supplying panel is allowed to be sized >>>>>> based on one of (B)(3)(1) - (3) because it is protected downstream at its >>>>>> end. >>>>>> >>>>>> The theory is pretty much the same as 705.12(B)(1) for feeders - when >>>>>> not connecting at the end of the feeder, use the "125% rule" or >>>>>> re-establish overcurrent protection for that portion of the feeder subject >>>>>> to multiple power sources. >>>>>> >>>>>> In your drawing the 200 A feeder conductors, as well as the busbar >>>>>> below the PV system breaker, could be subject to > 200 A in the event of a >>>>>> fault somewhere along those conductors. >>>>>> >>>>>> Brian Mehalic >>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >>>>>> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >>>>>> (520) 204-6639 >>>>>> >>>>>> Solar Energy International >>>>>> http://www.solarenergy.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> SEI Professional Services >>>>>> http://www.seisolarpros.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:18 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Does anyone else think they botched the wording in this section? >>>>>>> It's still not clear, and we have a ton of meter/main combos with >>>>>>> feed-through lugs around here. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Where is it written, "where an overcurrent device is installed at >>>>>>> the *supply end* of the feed-through conductors," (emphasis added) >>>>>>> are they referring to the solar backfed breaker on the busbar or another >>>>>>> breaker somewhere along the feeder circuit? It goes on to state that the >>>>>>> loads on the supplying busbar can comply with any method in 705.12(B)(3), >>>>>>> which prescribes an OCPD at the load end of the feeder in 705.12(B)(3)(3), >>>>>>> so they can't be talking about that. I have to assume it is the solar >>>>>>> backfed breaker they are referencing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> See my interpretation of one scenario in the attached image. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We're a long way off from the 2020 code implementation here, but it >>>>>>> can help sway plans examiners looking to clarify the intent of the >>>>>>> 2014/2017 code cycles. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Feed Through Lug Interconnection Option (2)(REV1).pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 34905 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Mon Nov 9 07:41:00 2020 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2020 07:41:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On that note, is there a device made to physically prevent additional breakers from being installed in the meter main? And also the two SP meter main breakers would have a combined ampacity limit. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 29th Anniversary 1991-2020 www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 11/8/2020 2:02:20 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Here is the corrected drawing for the record. On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 12:51 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: Correction... The PV OCPD would need to be 80A or less or the total loads would need to be 100A or less. It's the sum of the OCPD, not loads plus rated PV current. On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 12:46 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: It's a 200A bus. 300A "on" the bus doesn't matter. The total of all load and supply devices does not exceed the bus rating. This is 705.12(D)(2)(3)(c) in 2014/2017. In no way can the total ampacity on the 200A bus exceed 200A as long as additional loads are not added, hence the required warning label. Where would 300A of current ever flow? On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 12:30 PM Jay wrote: Hi Jason My question is if it’s 200a in from the main breaker and 100a from PV its 300 amps on the buss correct? How is that ok with the 125% rule? Or is this covered by some other rule as it’s a feed through lug load center? Jay On Nov 8, 2020, at 9:46 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:  Maybe this is a better example (attached). I don't see how this would be a problem under NEC 2014, 2017, or 2020. No portion of the main bus, feeder conductors, or subpanel could possibly be subjected to overcurrent without an OCPD stopping it. My point is that here we are, 3 code cycles in since feeder taps were addressed, and there is still no clarification of intent. AHJs are still struggling with this. I'm not sure where residential meter/mains with feed through lugs are popular. I know they are in Florida and I have heard Hawaii. I'm curious what your jurisdictions think of this if you have this scenario. Most of the time the subpanel is main lug only, but adding a main circuit breaker is usually an easy and cost-effective fix to make this interconnection type work. Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:15 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: For further discussion, I don't see how my original scenario is any different from this attached scenario, which I think everyone would agree is allowed. All conductors and busbars are subject to the same potential loads and fault currents. (Image attached). On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:01 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: Of course the feeder conductors and bus bar could be subjected to a fault. But we're not talking about faults here. Fault protection is the job of the PV OCPD And primary supply OCPD to protect the downstream busbar and feeders. If that wasn't the case, you would need a new OCPD on BOTH the load and line side of a solar connection as a feeder tap, not just the load side. If your interpretation is correct regarding the location of the OCPD, that sounds like a sub-feed breaker is the only way to comply, and I haven't seen such an animal for a typical residential load center. You can get these for NQ panelboards and similar panelboards from other manufacturers of course. It doesn't say as close as practicable or anything like that. It says that a busbar connection is allowed when there are feeder CONDUCTORS connected to feed through LUGS. What does "overcurrent device .. at the supply end" mean? I emphasize "at." It's unclear how you would implement this other than a sub-feed breaker I suppose, but that's not what it says. It refers to feeder conductors on lugs on busbars, not feeder conductors on load-side terminals of an overcurrent device. My point is that 705.12 should have been wrapped up neatly in a bow, but the lack of clarity, still, is astonishing. Why add a section about feed-through lugs if it's going to be so vague? Jason On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 3:37 PM Brian Mehalic wrote: Hey Jason, Here's the 2020 text: 6) Connections shall be permitted on busbars of panelboards that supply lugs connected to feed-through conductors. The feed-through conductors shall be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)(1). Where an overcurrent device is installed at the supply end of the feed-through conductors, the busbar in the supplying panelboard shall be permitted to be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)⁠(3)⁠(1) through 705.12(B)(3)(3). The OCPD on the supply end of the feed-through conductors would be in the form of a sub-feed breaker at the point of supply to those conductors, re-establishing overcurrent protection of the conductors (likely at the same ampacity as the main breaker in the supplying panel. The feed-through conductors are basically an extension of the busbar in the supplying panel; they can either be protected by the main, or in the presence of multiple sources of power in the supplying panel (such as a backfed PV system breaker) they can be protected based on (B)(3)(1) - "the 125% rule" - or they can be protected by a new overcurrent device at their point of supply, in which case current on them is limited based on that OCPD size; in this latter scenario the busbar in the supplying panel is allowed to be sized based on one of (B)(3)(1) - (3) because it is protected downstream at its end. The theory is pretty much the same as 705.12(B)(1) for feeders - when not connecting at the end of the feeder, use the "125% rule" or re-establish overcurrent protection for that portion of the feeder subject to multiple power sources. In your drawing the 200 A feeder conductors, as well as the busbar below the PV system breaker, could be subject to > 200 A in the event of a fault somewhere along those conductors. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org [https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/6eb0c6c8006878ded7b952fd907cf2296d8a8c23?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.solarenergy.org&userId=1613865&signature=b90b1c342f944fc6] SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com [https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/0c7a06ede90529e40edf3310fc409ef25d314f50?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.seisolarpros.com&userId=1613865&signature=90f78f85b5245d83] On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:18 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: Does anyone else think they botched the wording in this section? It's still not clear, and we have a ton of meter/main combos with feed-through lugs around here. Where is it written, "where an overcurrent device is installed at the supply end of the feed-through conductors," (emphasis added) are they referring to the solar backfed breaker on the busbar or another breaker somewhere along the feeder circuit? It goes on to state that the loads on the supplying busbar can comply with any method in 705.12(B)(3), which prescribes an OCPD at the load end of the feeder in 705.12(B)(3)(3), so they can't be talking about that. I have to assume it is the solar backfed breaker they are referencing. See my interpretation of one scenario in the attached image. We're a long way off from the 2020 code implementation here, but it can help sway plans examiners looking to clarify the intent of the 2014/2017 code cycles. Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/a508814a91f7fad4c91cb6fc97922e45ccd78e16?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=42daadc1cf7c9084] There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/d2a5dfee8cf90cc9d6d0507dc021f7df79d9a729?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2F&userId=1613865&signature=4b66bc2ee38a9e73] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/bff29ac89287feeed11cf19c6690147803c2d9c3?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=fc732945abf29f4e] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/9c70dbeffa47721f81c73a2a13b61737dfc9ebff?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=c045bc78f52658c4] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/f342a09c740b61f880b6ca21f6456c58b1e65a97?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=fb4c9c552fd1b7a9] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Nov 9 07:45:23 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 07:45:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6) In-Reply-To: <80c21907ea9caf38c8de4c6fb4d372c8@redwoodalliance.org> References: <80c21907ea9caf38c8de4c6fb4d372c8@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Right. If the sum of the PV source OCPD and all load OCPD in the main panel is less than or equal to the busbar rating, it complies with 705.12(D)(2)(3)(c). Label the panel as required and you're all good. Loads beyond the interconnection point do not matter for purposes of 705.12(D)(2)(3)(c) as long as the rules of 705.12(D)(2)(1) are applied. This isn't explicitly stated in any revision of the code, but it's implicit by applying all of the relevant sections of 705.12(D)(2). The point of 705.12 is to ensure that no portion of any circuit will ever see current in excess of the bus or conductor rating, and the PV source is calculated at 125% of the inverter output rating (or the OCPD rating that is greater than or equal to that). It comes down to common sense, but for the sake of easing the burden on AHJs, I wish it was more explicit since this is a common interconnection method around here. Jason On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 2:01 PM wrote: > It depends on how many loads there are on the meter main besides the > feed-through. If the PV feed is coming from a point between the > distribution panel and the meter main, current will cancel out utility > power from the service drop. > > If you had over 200 amps of branch circuit loads on the meter main, it > could be a problem with the feed coming from both directions. > > > --- > > > > On 2020-11-08 12:02, Jay wrote: > > Hi Jason > > My question is if it's 200a in from the main breaker and 100a from PV its > 300 amps on the buss correct? > > How is that ok with the 125% rule? > > Or is this covered by some other rule as it's a feed through lug load > center? > > Jay > > > > On Nov 8, 2020, at 9:46 AM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > > Maybe this is a better example (attached). I don't see how this would be a > problem under NEC 2014, 2017, or 2020. No portion of the main bus, feeder > conductors, or subpanel could possibly be subjected to overcurrent without > an OCPD stopping it. > > My point is that here we are, 3 code cycles in since feeder taps were > addressed, and there is still no clarification of intent. AHJs are still > struggling with this. > > I'm not sure where residential meter/mains with feed through lugs are > popular. I know they are in Florida and I have heard Hawaii. I'm curious > what your jurisdictions think of this if you have this scenario. Most of > the time the subpanel is main lug only, but adding a main circuit breaker > is usually an easy and cost-effective fix to make this interconnection type > work. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:15 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > > For further discussion, I don't see how my original scenario is any > different from this attached scenario, which I think everyone would agree > is allowed. All conductors and busbars are subject to the same potential > loads and fault currents. > (Image attached). > > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:01 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > > Of course the feeder conductors and bus bar could be subjected to a fault. > But we're not talking about faults here. Fault protection is the job of the > PV OCPD And primary supply OCPD to protect the downstream busbar and > feeders. If that wasn't the case, you would need a new OCPD on BOTH the > load and line side of a solar connection as a feeder tap, not just the load > side. > > If your interpretation is correct regarding the location of the OCPD, that > sounds like a sub-feed breaker is the only way to comply, and I haven't > seen such an animal for a typical residential load center. You can get > these for NQ panelboards and similar panelboards from other manufacturers > of course. It doesn't say as close as practicable or anything like that. It > says that a busbar connection is allowed when there are feeder CONDUCTORS > connected to feed through LUGS. What does "overcurrent device .. *at* the > supply end" mean? I emphasize "at." It's unclear how you would implement > this other than a sub-feed breaker I suppose, but that's not what it says. > It refers to feeder conductors on lugs on busbars, not feeder conductors on > load-side terminals of an overcurrent device. > > > My point is that 705.12 should have been wrapped up neatly in a bow, but > the lack of clarity, still, is astonishing. Why add a section about > feed-through lugs if it's going to be so vague? > > Jason > > > > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 3:37 PM Brian Mehalic > wrote: > > Hey Jason, > Here's the 2020 text: > > > 6) Connections shall be permitted on busbars of panelboards that supply > lugs connected to feed-through conductors. The feed-through conductors > shall be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)(1). Where an overcurrent device > is installed at the supply end of the feed-through conductors, the busbar > in the supplying panelboard shall be permitted to be sized in accordance > with 705.12(B)⁠(3)⁠(1) through 705.12(B)(3)(3). > > > The OCPD on the supply end of the feed-through conductors would be in the > form of a sub-feed breaker at the point of supply to those conductors, > re-establishing overcurrent protection of the conductors (likely at the > same ampacity as the main breaker in the supplying panel. The feed-through > conductors are basically an extension of the busbar in the supplying panel; > they can either be protected by the main, or in the presence of multiple > sources of power in the supplying panel (such as a backfed PV system > breaker) they can be protected based on (B)(3)(1) - "the 125% rule" - or > they can be protected by a new overcurrent device at their point of supply, > in which case current on them is limited based on that OCPD size; in this > latter scenario the busbar in the supplying panel is allowed to be sized > based on one of (B)(3)(1) - (3) because it is protected downstream at its > end. > > The theory is pretty much the same as 705.12(B)(1) for feeders - when not > connecting at the end of the feeder, use the "125% rule" or re-establish > overcurrent protection for that portion of the feeder subject to multiple > power sources. > > In your drawing the 200 A feeder conductors, as well as the busbar below > the PV system breaker, could be subject to > 200 A in the event of a fault > somewhere along those conductors. > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > > SEI Professional Services > http://www.seisolarpros.com > > > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:18 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > > Does anyone else think they botched the wording in this section? It's > still not clear, and we have a ton of meter/main combos with feed-through > lugs around here. > > Where is it written, "where an overcurrent device is installed at the *supply > end* of the feed-through conductors," (emphasis added) are they referring > to the solar backfed breaker on the busbar or another breaker somewhere > along the feeder circuit? It goes on to state that the loads on the > supplying busbar can comply with any method in 705.12(B)(3), which > prescribes an OCPD at the load end of the feeder in 705.12(B)(3)(3), so > they can't be talking about that. I have to assume it is the solar > backfed breaker they are referencing. > > See my interpretation of one scenario in the attached image. > > We're a long way off from the 2020 code implementation here, but it can > help sway plans examiners looking to clarify the intent of the 2014/2017 > code cycles. > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Nov 9 12:48:53 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 09:48:53 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55118abf416495d635d7be16960de17a@mail.gmail.com> . Where would 300A of current ever flow? What is someone dropped a wrench on the bus? It would fault with greater than 200 amps. This is and has been the point behind this code section. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski *Sent:* Sunday, November 8, 2020 9:47 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6) It's a 200A bus. 300A "on" the bus doesn't matter. The total of all load and supply devices does not exceed the bus rating. This is 705.12(D)(2)(3)(c) in 2014/2017. In no way can the total ampacity on the 200A bus exceed 200A as long as additional loads are not added, hence the required warning label On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 12:30 PM Jay wrote: Hi Jason My question is if it’s 200a in from the main breaker and 100a from PV its 300 amps on the buss correct? How is that ok with the 125% rule? Or is this covered by some other rule as it’s a feed through lug load center? Jay On Nov 8, 2020, at 9:46 AM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:  Maybe this is a better example (attached). I don't see how this would be a problem under NEC 2014, 2017, or 2020. No portion of the main bus, feeder conductors, or subpanel could possibly be subjected to overcurrent without an OCPD stopping it. My point is that here we are, 3 code cycles in since feeder taps were addressed, and there is still no clarification of intent. AHJs are still struggling with this. I'm not sure where residential meter/mains with feed through lugs are popular. I know they are in Florida and I have heard Hawaii. I'm curious what your jurisdictions think of this if you have this scenario. Most of the time the subpanel is main lug only, but adding a main circuit breaker is usually an easy and cost-effective fix to make this interconnection type work. Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:15 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: For further discussion, I don't see how my original scenario is any different from this attached scenario, which I think everyone would agree is allowed. All conductors and busbars are subject to the same potential loads and fault currents. (Image attached). On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:01 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: Of course the feeder conductors and bus bar could be subjected to a fault. But we're not talking about faults here. Fault protection is the job of the PV OCPD And primary supply OCPD to protect the downstream busbar and feeders. If that wasn't the case, you would need a new OCPD on BOTH the load and line side of a solar connection as a feeder tap, not just the load side. If your interpretation is correct regarding the location of the OCPD, that sounds like a sub-feed breaker is the only way to comply, and I haven't seen such an animal for a typical residential load center. You can get these for NQ panelboards and similar panelboards from other manufacturers of course. It doesn't say as close as practicable or anything like that. It says that a busbar connection is allowed when there are feeder CONDUCTORS connected to feed through LUGS. What does "overcurrent device .. *at* the supply end" mean? I emphasize "at." It's unclear how you would implement this other than a sub-feed breaker I suppose, but that's not what it says. It refers to feeder conductors on lugs on busbars, not feeder conductors on load-side terminals of an overcurrent device. My point is that 705.12 should have been wrapped up neatly in a bow, but the lack of clarity, still, is astonishing. Why add a section about feed-through lugs if it's going to be so vague? Jason On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 3:37 PM Brian Mehalic wrote: Hey Jason, Here's the 2020 text: 6) Connections shall be permitted on busbars of panelboards that supply lugs connected to feed-through conductors. The feed-through conductors shall be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)(1). Where an overcurrent device is installed at the supply end of the feed-through conductors, the busbar in the supplying panelboard shall be permitted to be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)⁠(3)⁠(1) through 705.12(B)(3)(3). The OCPD on the supply end of the feed-through conductors would be in the form of a sub-feed breaker at the point of supply to those conductors, re-establishing overcurrent protection of the conductors (likely at the same ampacity as the main breaker in the supplying panel. The feed-through conductors are basically an extension of the busbar in the supplying panel; they can either be protected by the main, or in the presence of multiple sources of power in the supplying panel (such as a backfed PV system breaker) they can be protected based on (B)(3)(1) - "the 125% rule" - or they can be protected by a new overcurrent device at their point of supply, in which case current on them is limited based on that OCPD size; in this latter scenario the busbar in the supplying panel is allowed to be sized based on one of (B)(3)(1) - (3) because it is protected downstream at its end. The theory is pretty much the same as 705.12(B)(1) for feeders - when not connecting at the end of the feeder, use the "125% rule" or re-establish overcurrent protection for that portion of the feeder subject to multiple power sources. In your drawing the 200 A feeder conductors, as well as the busbar below the PV system breaker, could be subject to > 200 A in the event of a fault somewhere along those conductors. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:18 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: Does anyone else think they botched the wording in this section? It's still not clear, and we have a ton of meter/main combos with feed-through lugs around here. Where is it written, "where an overcurrent device is installed at the *supply end* of the feed-through conductors," (emphasis added) are they referring to the solar backfed breaker on the busbar or another breaker somewhere along the feeder circuit? It goes on to state that the loads on the supplying busbar can comply with any method in 705.12(B)(3), which prescribes an OCPD at the load end of the feeder in 705.12(B)(3)(3), so they can't be talking about that. I have to assume it is the solar backfed breaker they are referencing. See my interpretation of one scenario in the attached image. We're a long way off from the 2020 code implementation here, but it can help sway plans examiners looking to clarify the intent of the 2014/2017 code cycles. Jason Szumlanski *Error! Filename not specified.* *Error! Filename not specified.* _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lawrencesteven at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 19:57:52 2020 From: lawrencesteven at gmail.com (Steven Lawrence) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 19:57:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bad Diodes in QCells? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Adam, I have a 3.3MW site using Hanwha 400s where IV curve tracing and other voltage checks found roughly 1% of the modules are experiencing some type of voltage issues. We all suspect bad diodes. We just got the site up and running and we will be doing an aerial thermal imaging flyover to determine just how extensive the issue is. Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2020 23:26:58 -0500 > From: AE Solar > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bad Diodes in QCells? > Message-ID: > < > CAHA29TRiFRS6BOzL+cnoB84gMStp_E3fUC+QAFWGxPDA+DkgoA at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Wrenchers, > Wondering if anyone has had any experience with bad diodes in QCell panels. > Two of our projects this summer had panels that were putting out half of > their rated voltage. At first it seemed like it was a defect from the > factory, and it was caught upon commissioning the system, but I'm now > seeing that another panel has gone bad about two months after install. I've > spoken with a few distributors and they said they haven't heard anything > about this being a pattern. I'm in the RMA process with QCell, and don't > feel like I'm getting complete transparency from them. So far we have 8 > defective panels out of 300. It was in two different projects that were > months apart. I'm not sure if they were from the same shipment or not. All > of them were Q.PEAK DUO 400 watt panels. Interested to know if anyone else > is having similar experiences? Thanks for any thoughts. > Adam > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > PO Box 1245 > Kingston, NY 12402 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Mon Nov 9 20:00:34 2020 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 18:00:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bad Diodes in QCells? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0522F2E4-A119-4098-B7F8-8303AEFA70AB@solarenergy.org> Has anyone diagnosed truly failed diodes? Or pinpointed other failures in the junction box or cell groups that could open circuit them? I’d really like to see some thermal images! Brian > On Nov 9, 2020, at 5:58 PM, Steven Lawrence wrote: > >  > Hi Adam, > > I have a 3.3MW site using Hanwha 400s where IV curve tracing and other voltage checks found roughly 1% of the modules are experiencing some type of voltage issues. We all suspect bad diodes. We just got the site up and running and we will be doing an aerial thermal imaging flyover to determine just how extensive the issue is. > > >> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2020 23:26:58 -0500 >> From: AE Solar >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bad Diodes in QCells? >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Wrenchers, >> Wondering if anyone has had any experience with bad diodes in QCell panels. >> Two of our projects this summer had panels that were putting out half of >> their rated voltage. At first it seemed like it was a defect from the >> factory, and it was caught upon commissioning the system, but I'm now >> seeing that another panel has gone bad about two months after install. I've >> spoken with a few distributors and they said they haven't heard anything >> about this being a pattern. I'm in the RMA process with QCell, and don't >> feel like I'm getting complete transparency from them. So far we have 8 >> defective panels out of 300. It was in two different projects that were >> months apart. I'm not sure if they were from the same shipment or not. All >> of them were Q.PEAK DUO 400 watt panels. Interested to know if anyone else >> is having similar experiences? Thanks for any thoughts. >> Adam >> >> Adam Katzman >> Autonomous Energies >> PO Box 1245 >> Kingston, NY 12402 >> www.autonomousenergies.com >> (518) 567-1468 >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Nov 10 08:27:08 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 08:27:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6) In-Reply-To: <55118abf416495d635d7be16960de17a@mail.gmail.com> References: <55118abf416495d635d7be16960de17a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The code clearly allows a 400A supply (200 main plus 200 solar supply) to a 200A bus if there are no loads on that bus. Or a 300A total supply to a 200A bus with 100A of loads. That's 705.12(D)(2)(3)(c) verbatim. Better get an insulated wrench. On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 12:53 PM William Miller wrote: > . Where would 300A of current ever flow? > > > > What is someone dropped a wrench on the bus? It would fault with greater > than 200 amps. This is and has been the point behind this code section. > > > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Sunday, November 8, 2020 9:47 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6) > > > > It's a 200A bus. > > > > 300A "on" the bus doesn't matter. The total of all load and supply devices > does not exceed the bus rating. This is 705.12(D)(2)(3)(c) in 2014/2017. > > > > In no way can the total ampacity on the 200A bus exceed 200A as long as > additional loads are not added, hence the required warning label > > > > On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 12:30 PM Jay wrote: > > Hi Jason > > > > My question is if it’s 200a in from the main breaker and 100a from PV its > 300 amps on the buss correct? > > > > How is that ok with the 125% rule? > > > > Or is this covered by some other rule as it’s a feed through lug load > center? > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > On Nov 8, 2020, at 9:46 AM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >  > > Maybe this is a better example (attached). I don't see how this would be a > problem under NEC 2014, 2017, or 2020. No portion of the main bus, feeder > conductors, or subpanel could possibly be subjected to overcurrent without > an OCPD stopping it. > > > > My point is that here we are, 3 code cycles in since feeder taps were > addressed, and there is still no clarification of intent. AHJs are still > struggling with this. > > > > I'm not sure where residential meter/mains with feed through lugs are > popular. I know they are in Florida and I have heard Hawaii. I'm curious > what your jurisdictions think of this if you have this scenario. Most of > the time the subpanel is main lug only, but adding a main circuit breaker > is usually an easy and cost-effective fix to make this interconnection type > work. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:15 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > For further discussion, I don't see how my original scenario is any > different from this attached scenario, which I think everyone would agree > is allowed. All conductors and busbars are subject to the same potential > loads and fault currents. > > (Image attached). > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:01 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > Of course the feeder conductors and bus bar could be subjected to a fault. > But we're not talking about faults here. Fault protection is the job of the > PV OCPD And primary supply OCPD to protect the downstream busbar and > feeders. If that wasn't the case, you would need a new OCPD on BOTH the > load and line side of a solar connection as a feeder tap, not just the load > side. > > > > If your interpretation is correct regarding the location of the OCPD, that > sounds like a sub-feed breaker is the only way to comply, and I haven't > seen such an animal for a typical residential load center. You can get > these for NQ panelboards and similar panelboards from other manufacturers > of course. It doesn't say as close as practicable or anything like that. It > says that a busbar connection is allowed when there are feeder CONDUCTORS > connected to feed through LUGS. What does "overcurrent device .. *at* the > supply end" mean? I emphasize "at." It's unclear how you would implement > this other than a sub-feed breaker I suppose, but that's not what it says. > It refers to feeder conductors on lugs on busbars, not feeder conductors on > load-side terminals of an overcurrent device. > > > > My point is that 705.12 should have been wrapped up neatly in a bow, but > the lack of clarity, still, is astonishing. Why add a section about > feed-through lugs if it's going to be so vague? > > > > Jason > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 3:37 PM Brian Mehalic > wrote: > > Hey Jason, > > Here's the 2020 text: > > > > 6) Connections shall be permitted on busbars of panelboards that supply > lugs connected to feed-through conductors. The feed-through conductors > shall be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)(1). Where an overcurrent device > is installed at the supply end of the feed-through conductors, the busbar > in the supplying panelboard shall be permitted to be sized in accordance > with 705.12(B)⁠(3)⁠(1) through 705.12(B)(3)(3). > > > > The OCPD on the supply end of the feed-through conductors would be in the > form of a sub-feed breaker at the point of supply to those conductors, > re-establishing overcurrent protection of the conductors (likely at the > same ampacity as the main breaker in the supplying panel. The feed-through > conductors are basically an extension of the busbar in the supplying panel; > they can either be protected by the main, or in the presence of multiple > sources of power in the supplying panel (such as a backfed PV system > breaker) they can be protected based on (B)(3)(1) - "the 125% rule" - or > they can be protected by a new overcurrent device at their point of supply, > in which case current on them is limited based on that OCPD size; in this > latter scenario the busbar in the supplying panel is allowed to be sized > based on one of (B)(3)(1) - (3) because it is protected downstream at its > end. > > > > The theory is pretty much the same as 705.12(B)(1) for feeders - when not > connecting at the end of the feeder, use the "125% rule" or re-establish > overcurrent protection for that portion of the feeder subject to multiple > power sources. > > > > In your drawing the 200 A feeder conductors, as well as the busbar below > the PV system breaker, could be subject to > 200 A in the event of a fault > somewhere along those conductors. > > > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > > (520) 204-6639 > > > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > > > > SEI Professional Services > > http://www.seisolarpros.com > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:18 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > Does anyone else think they botched the wording in this section? It's > still not clear, and we have a ton of meter/main combos with feed-through > lugs around here. > > > > Where is it written, "where an overcurrent device is installed at the *supply > end* of the feed-through conductors," (emphasis added) are they referring > to the solar backfed breaker on the busbar or another breaker somewhere > along the feeder circuit? It goes on to state that the loads on the > supplying busbar can comply with any method in 705.12(B)(3), which > prescribes an OCPD at the load end of the feeder in 705.12(B)(3)(3), so > they can't be talking about that. I have to assume it is the solar > backfed breaker they are referencing. > > > > See my interpretation of one scenario in the attached image. > > > > We're a long way off from the 2020 code implementation here, but it can > help sway plans examiners looking to clarify the intent of the 2014/2017 > code cycles. > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > *Error! Filename not specified.* > > *Error! Filename not specified.* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamie.greenwired at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 10:28:39 2020 From: jamie.greenwired at gmail.com (Jamie Rennie) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 07:28:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commissioning issues with Enphase Ensemble In-Reply-To: <20201007092919.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.904ec31535.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> References: <20201007092919.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.904ec31535.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Wrenches, We just got through installing and commissioning our first Enphase system with Empower Smart switch and 2 of the Encharge 10's. Commissioning took a long time (over a week) and was really clunky with many calls to tech support. Everytime we got past one issue we ran into something else that needed to be resolved by an engineer. Most of it had to do with software and communication between envoy and other components. Found one of the batteries failed and we have replaced it. Now the batteries are not communicating with the Envoy and waiting to hear back from tech support about a solution for improving the communication between the Envoy, Empower and Encharge Units (currently IQ Combiner with Envoy is installed on East exterior wall near service and batteries are in the garage approx 60' away). Sounds like Enphase does not have a repeater they recommend for their system yet and there are known issues with weak comm between batteries and Envoy. On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 10:07 AM wrote: > Thanks for that advice, Louis. Next time I will start the necessary > downloads first. > This week with a site visit from Enphase tech support we determined the > Enpower switch was stuck in an unknown state. This was resolved > successfully, and now the Enpower switch and Encharge batteries are > commissioned and functional. Their status and power flow can be seen on > Enlighten. > During functional testing we determined that a major cause of the system > going down when off-grid is that the well pump turn-on surge is too much > for the two Encharge3 batteries. > This issue should be able to be solved by a motor soft starter. Enphase > recommends SureStart from Hyper Engineering. These are made for larger A/C > units with access to separate fan and compressor windings so are not > appropriate for this two-wire 3/4 hp well pump. > Does anyone have a recommendation for a suitable soft start rated at > something like 8 amps load, 16 amps surge? > > Don Barch > Energy Solar > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Commissioning issues with Enphase Ensemble > From: Louis Woofenden > Date: Thu, October 01, 2020 3:54 pm > To: don at energysolarnow.com > > > Hi Don, > > I have commissioned four new Ensemble systems over the past two weeks. All > storage additions to existing PV systems with Enphase microinverters. > Although there are parts of the process that are a bit clunky, we have not > had the problems you mention. I followed the instructions in the tech brief > "Ensemble Commissioning via Installer Toolkit 3.0," linked at > https://enphase.com/en-us/certification-support-program-guidelines > (direct link to the PDF is > https://enphase.com/sites/default/files/Tech%20Brief%20-%20Ensemble%20Commissioning%20via%20Installer%20Toolkit%203.0.pdf > ). > > My experience is that each of the four Enpower microgrid interconnection > devices we've installed started up in passthrough mode, so if input > breakers are on in the MID, backup loads have had power before > commissioning is completed, and power has remained on for those backup > loads even after we turned off the PV and ESS disconnects to wait for > utility PTO after doing commissioning and functional testing. > > It did take us some time to do the Envoy software update before > commissioning, and the system does require a second trip for functional > testing after the Encharge battery software updates have been done (up to > 12 hours). I haven't stuck on site for the Encharge/Enpower software > updates, but it looks like they are taking 4-6 hours for us, based on > percentage done by the time I've left the site (system sizes from 10.08 kWh > to 20.16 kWh). Yeah, it's a second trip. I've used the trip to meet with > electrical inspectors for these first systems. > > One "trick" I've used on the Envoy software update is that you once you > scan in the serial numbers of each Enpower & Encharge with the installer > toolkit and plug in the cell modem and wireless communications kit, the > installer toolkit will allow the Envoy software update to work, and you can > get it taken care of early in the day, while still hanging boxes, running > conduit, etc. > > I would agree that there are definitely parts of the new installer toolkit > that aren't intuitive. I missed the "edit" button on the devices page for a > bit (which is not mentioned in the tech brief), and couldn't figure out how > to increase the device count, for example. I also had to try the Envoy > update twice for some of these systems, as it threw an error code the first > time around, so for some of the systems it took closer to 45-50 minutes to > get the Envoy software update done. > > Hope the next one goes more smoothly for you! New products, new > challenges, I guess. > > Best, > > Louis Woofenden > > > don at energysolarnow.com wrote on 9/30/20 2:59 PM: > > Wrenches- > I'm having a lot of difficulty commissioning my first Enphase Ensemble > installation. This is on a pre-existing microinverter installation. Have > been on the phone with tech support several times; each time they forward a > Tech Brief about commissioning that has different and slightly conflicting > instructions. It seems the order of turning on each box is critical. > Because of already-obsolete software that they ship with, the software must > be updated before activating the Envoy, Enpower, and Encharge or they will > not work. > And for some reason the Envoy must have both Wifi and cell connection > before even starting commissioning, but the slower cell connection is used > for software download so it takes up to 12 hours. > This commissioning must be done on-site using their latest version of > Installer Toolkit on a smart phone. Sure, there are buttons in Enlighten's > Activation page to add an Enpower and Encharge, but these do not work > "yet". > Enphase tech support says they are working on making this a single-day > process rather than the current multi-day commissioning. This does not even > count the actual hardware installation time. > > I would advise anyone against moving any loads to a new subpanel before > the entire system is commissioned and operating. > As of now I have an Enpower that mistakenly thinks it is off-grid when the > grid is present, so it has told the Envoy to shut down the PV > microinverters and batteries. These are relay controlled, therefore it is > not possible to have them connected without software control. It has > already committed the major crime of shutting down the backed-up loads > while the grid is still present. Enphase is working on it, but seem to be > developing software on the fly. I suppose their integration process has > been hit hard by pandemic distancing, and they are all working remotely. > > Has anyone else had a successful experience commissioning an Ensemble? > I'd like to hear about the doos-and-don'ts. > > Don Barch > don at energysolarnow.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > -- > Louis Woofenden > Engineering Director > Net Zero Solar, LLC > 101. W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 > Arizona ROC #248710, 259756, 259521 > > Phone: 520.207.4053 Ex. 3 > Cell: 520.237.5040 > Fax: 520.203.7230 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Respectfully, Jamie Rennie Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 C: 707-273-7387 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com [image: Description: signature] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamie.greenwired at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 10:57:14 2020 From: jamie.greenwired at gmail.com (Jamie Rennie) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 07:57:14 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas In-Reply-To: <02a801d661e4$78dc0050$6a9400f0$@solarwork.com> References: <15645927-9915-404A-993A-8EF81628D6E5@sindelarsolar.com> <363DE4B6-F5C0-48C7-A19A-7869837867DF@solshineenergyalternatives.com> <02a801d661e4$78dc0050$6a9400f0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: We have used safe rolling kits with plywood to move HUPS into difficult areas. Also used ratcheting straps to pull them into place with rollers. On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 11:01 AM Dana Orzel wrote: > Hups do come with a battery pulling tether or did come with one. > > > > > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Rick Brown > *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2020 5:25 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas > > > > Allen, > > > > Did you use the battery terminals to pull the cells? I don’t see any other > way to grab the cells. > > > > Great idea on the engine hoist! > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > > > On Jul 23, 2020, at 7:03 PM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: > >  > > Rick: > > 1) consider renting or buying an engine hoist to pull out the individual > cells, and lowering each onto a hand truck for transport to your truck. I > have done this several times - it’s actually not that difficult with a crew > of two or three. > > Northwest Energy Storage (www.solarone com, I think) supplies a short, > heavy nylon strap with clevises at each end for raising and lowering each > cell. You might contact them to purchase one. > > At one remote site, the client suggested that I buy a cheap engine hoist > from Harbor Freight, as it would be cheaper than renting a professional > one. > > > > 2) the older Trace SW series is early technology in regards to its sell > efficiency, because of the lack of what was dubbed ‘silent sell’. The > general number from when it was about the only game in town was about 55%. > I would suggest upgrading to a modern unit if it’s primarily used for > selling back. > > > > Allan Sindelar, Sindelar Solar > > > > On Jul 23, 2020, at 3:47 PM, Rick Brown < > rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com> wrote: > > Wrenches, > > > > Dilemma #1: > > > > I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set > weighs in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The > originals were placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going > up. > > > > > > > > > > Dilemma #2: > > > > The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback > FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging > parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the > batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I > missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. > > > > Thanks, > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Respectfully, Jamie Rennie Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 C: 707-273-7387 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com [image: Description: signature] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Tue Nov 10 11:04:25 2020 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 11:04:25 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for an installer in Hampton Falls NH Message-ID: <004301d6b77b$298d39f0$7ca7add0$@mindspring.com> Hi fellow wrenchers. Not sure if this is allowed and if it is not my sincere apologies. Have a client locally that has asked me about an installer in the Hampton Falls NH area. They have a family member buying a home and moving there that will want solar. Any and all help appreciated. Thx peter Giroux American Solar Roswell Ga. -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Tue Nov 10 13:47:26 2020 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 11:47:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] factory module damage, has anyone seen this? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2C1C65FF-C31A-4381-93D1-DCA5B18F3799@skyfireenergy.com> Jay, If they say it is “within tolerance”, do they have “specs” to show that? And if it is, and they do ....then is it causing you grief (making adjoining mods look flush)? Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 > On Nov 5, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Jay wrote: > > I wanted to give a final update as to this issue > > Canadian solar drew the line with “ it’s within tolerance, not a warranty issue” > > So I’m out of options from them. Quite disappointed and I won’t buy them again. > > My distributor was great and with their discount I feel a bit better. > > But any kind of return wasn’t on the table. > > Thanks > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 14:35:46 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 12:35:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] factory module damage, has anyone seen this? In-Reply-To: <2C1C65FF-C31A-4381-93D1-DCA5B18F3799@skyfireenergy.com> References: <2C1C65FF-C31A-4381-93D1-DCA5B18F3799@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <6C401019-7656-4A63-BB83-AE3B96A5D017@gmail.com> Hi Benn I never got the specs that they said it was within. But the distributor assures me its true. The modules are not up yet, and they won’t really be visible, but yea they should be flat and on plane. It will bug me that there is a bow to them. But its a done deal now. jay > On Nov 10, 2020, at 11:47 AM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > Jay, > If they say it is “within tolerance”, do they have “specs” to show that? > And if it is, and they do ....then is it causing you grief (making adjoining mods look flush)? > > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy > 780-906-7807 > >> On Nov 5, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Jay wrote: >> >> I wanted to give a final update as to this issue >> >> Canadian solar drew the line with “ it’s within tolerance, not a warranty issue” >> >> So I’m out of options from them. Quite disappointed and I won’t buy them again. >> >> My distributor was great and with their discount I feel a bit better. >> >> But any kind of return wasn’t on the table. >> >> Thanks >> >> Jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From dtedeyan at taitem.com Wed Nov 11 10:36:00 2020 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 10:36:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower monitoring site Message-ID: To the other Sunpower dealers out there, Is anyone else having issues with Sunpower's partner monitoring portal? I log in, it takes a couple minutes before I can even view a site, and once I do I can barely get to a new view before I get logged out again. I know that they have a new monitoring site, but that one seems to be almost as slow, and give only basic system information. I am curious if others are having success monitoring their Sunpower systems, or if people are having similar issues. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 11:07:24 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 11:07:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle Message-ID: Hi all, According to Sol-Ark tech support, they do not currently have a programmable exercise cycle for its two-wire start function. When paired with a generator like a Generac Ecogen (exercise cycle is automatically disabled when configured with two wire start) this means that the only way to effectively run an exercise cycle on your generator would be to do it manually. I am wondering if anyone has run into this issue and if there are work arounds? Kind of a bummer and my first and only negative experience with Sol-Ark thus far. Kindly, Chris Sparadeo -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Nov 11 11:24:53 2020 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 11:24:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle Message-ID: <7195cppmfvfk15c5kjt81qv6.1605111860552@email.lge.com> I believe the Atkinson GSCM could be used to do this.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Chris SparadeoDate: Wed, Nov 11, 2020 11:16 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise CycleHi all,According to Sol-Ark tech support, they do not currently have a programmable exercise cycle forits two-wire start function. When paired with a generator like a Generac Ecogen (exercise cycle is automatically disabled when configured with two wire start) this means that the only way to effectively run an exercise cycle on your generator would be to do it manually. I am wondering if anyone has run into this issue and if there are work arounds? Kind of a bummer and my first and only negative experience with Sol-Ark thus far. Kindly,Chris Sparadeo -- Chris SparadeoC_802-369-4458H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 12:08:53 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 12:08:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] : Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle In-Reply-To: <7195cppmfvfk15c5kjt81qv6.1605111860552@email.lge.com> References: <7195cppmfvfk15c5kjt81qv6.1605111860552@email.lge.com> Message-ID: Hi Glenn, Would the idea be to have the GSCM only perform exercise cycles or fully take over AGS functionality? I’m just wondering if both components can be integrated on the same 2 wire circuit, doing different things, without issue. I would rather the Sol Ark maintain the normal start/stop functions, as it has a better read on LFP SOC%. Thanks for the suggestion! -Chris On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 11:25 AM Glenn Burt wrote: > I believe the Atkinson GSCM could be used to do this. > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Chris Sparadeo > *Date: *Wed, Nov 11, 2020 11:16 AM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle > > Hi all, > > According to Sol-Ark tech support, they do not currently have a > programmable exercise cycle for > its two-wire start function. When paired with a generator like a Generac > Ecogen (exercise cycle is automatically disabled when configured with two > wire start) this means that the only way to effectively run an exercise > cycle on your generator would be to do it manually. I am wondering if > anyone has run into this issue and if there are work arounds? Kind of a > bummer and my first and only negative experience with Sol-Ark thus far. > > Kindly, > > Chris Sparadeo > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at sesre.com Wed Nov 11 12:59:12 2020 From: matt at sesre.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 17:59:12 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower monitoring site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Same issue for me. Can’t analyze any site lately. It has been that way over a month. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2020 10:36 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower monitoring site To the other Sunpower dealers out there, Is anyone else having issues with Sunpower's partner monitoring portal? I log in, it takes a couple minutes before I can even view a site, and once I do I can barely get to a new view before I get logged out again. I know that they have a new monitoring site, but that one seems to be almost as slow, and give only basic system information. I am curious if others are having success monitoring their Sunpower systems, or if people are having similar issues. Cheers, Dave Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC [https://www.taitem.com/signatures/logo.png] 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 15:16:48 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 13:16:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle In-Reply-To: <7195cppmfvfk15c5kjt81qv6.1605111860552@email.lge.com> References: <7195cppmfvfk15c5kjt81qv6.1605111860552@email.lge.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris I would install a timer. There are many dry contact dc or ac powered with a high degree of programmability. A question about the normal function of the AGS. I’ve talked to a few people that have mentioned that the ags has its own fuzzy logic, with limited programming. And they have had issues with it not turning on or not turning off What do you say? Jay > On Nov 11, 2020, at 10:43 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: > >  > I believe the Atkinson GSCM could be used to do this. > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > From: Chris Sparadeo > Date: Wed, Nov 11, 2020 11:16 AM > To: RE-wrenches; > Cc: > Subject:[RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle > > Hi all, > > According to Sol-Ark tech support, they do not currently have a programmable exercise cycle for > its two-wire start function. When paired with a generator like a Generac Ecogen (exercise cycle is automatically disabled when configured with two wire start) this means that the only way to effectively run an exercise cycle on your generator would be to do it manually. I am wondering if anyone has run into this issue and if there are work arounds? Kind of a bummer and my first and only negative experience with Sol-Ark thus far. > > Kindly, > > Chris Sparadeo > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Nov 11 18:10:32 2020 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 16:10:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback MX-60 replacement fan Message-ID: <3f6d44bc-dc8f-bdcc-675f-1c1709401d7a@sindelarsolar.com> Esteemed Wrenches: Where can I purchase a replacement cooling fan for an older Outback MX-60 controller? Thanks, Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 18:44:45 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 15:44:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback MX-60 replacement fan In-Reply-To: <3f6d44bc-dc8f-bdcc-675f-1c1709401d7a@sindelarsolar.com> References: <3f6d44bc-dc8f-bdcc-675f-1c1709401d7a@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Just asking, did you call outback, l have got parts in the past Jerry On Wed, Nov 11, 2020, 3:10 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches: > > Where can I purchase a replacement cooling fan for an older Outback MX-60 > controller? > > Thanks, Allan > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 18:58:21 2020 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 18:58:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback MX-60 replacement fan In-Reply-To: <3f6d44bc-dc8f-bdcc-675f-1c1709401d7a@sindelarsolar.com> References: <3f6d44bc-dc8f-bdcc-675f-1c1709401d7a@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Allan, Zonna Energy stocks most Outback parts. John Blittersdorf CV Wind Service On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 6:10 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches: > > Where can I purchase a replacement cooling fan for an older Outback MX-60 > controller? > > Thanks, Allan > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From David.Opalinsky at sunpower.com Wed Nov 11 20:15:25 2020 From: David.Opalinsky at sunpower.com (Isaac Opalinsky) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 01:15:25 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower monitoring site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi David and Matt! Which monitoring platform are you struggling with? There is a legacy platform that is set to be retired at the end of the year – the one we called “SMS” which had the old orange and black theme. It’s being replaced with SunPower Pro Fleet Management, which is available to our dealers now. You should find it’s a lot faster and we’re building new tools into it so it will have the same capabilities as SMS without the lag. It’s also got a much better interface and works on tablets and mobile devices (although it’s not optimized for phones). It also has some significant enhancements such as remote command functions that had previously been only available to technical support or when on site doing commissioning. Contact me offline if you need instructions or help getting access. Best Regards, Isaac Opalinsky | Director, Training & Field Enablement mobile 443-277-6286 | isaac.opalinsky at sunpower.com [sp_2014_logo_black_orange_CMYK-01] From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Matt Partymiller Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2020 12:59 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [EXT] Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower monitoring site External Email - Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or downloading attachments. ________________________________ Same issue for me. Can’t analyze any site lately. It has been that way over a month. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2020 10:36 AM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower monitoring site To the other Sunpower dealers out there, Is anyone else having issues with Sunpower's partner monitoring portal? I log in, it takes a couple minutes before I can even view a site, and once I do I can barely get to a new view before I get logged out again. I know that they have a new monitoring site, but that one seems to be almost as slow, and give only basic system information. I am curious if others are having success monitoring their Sunpower systems, or if people are having similar issues. Cheers, Dave Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC [https://www.taitem.com/signatures/logo.png] 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 5843 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 20:20:51 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 20:20:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle In-Reply-To: References: <7195cppmfvfk15c5kjt81qv6.1605111860552@email.lge.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the suggestion, Jay. Yes, the Sol-Ark has a very basic and limited AGS for 2 wire compatible gen sets. Gen start can be programmed with voltage or SOC, however gen stop is not a function that can not be readily programmed. Instead, the Sol-Ark is programmed to charge the battery bank to 90% of the rated Ah capacity of the battery bank before turning off the generator. You can ultimately adjust this gen stop parameter to be based on a specific SOC or voltage, but I believe that doing so requires a call into tech support. The tech I spoke with updated a setting (having to do with a TOU parameter I believe) that was not accessible via the system interface. AGS from Schnieder, Outback and even Magnum are less clunky, but I am hoping that Sol-Ark will eventually come out with new programming to remediate these minor but nevertheless, important issues -Chris On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 3:58 PM Jay wrote: > Hi Chris > > I would install a timer. There are many dry contact dc or ac powered with > a high degree of programmability. > > A question about the normal function of the AGS. I’ve talked to a few > people that have mentioned that the ags has its own fuzzy logic, with > limited programming. And they have had issues with it not turning on or not > turning off > > What do you say? > > Jay > > On Nov 11, 2020, at 10:43 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: > >  > I believe the Atkinson GSCM could be used to do this. > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Chris Sparadeo > *Date: *Wed, Nov 11, 2020 11:16 AM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle > > Hi all, > > According to Sol-Ark tech support, they do not currently have a > programmable exercise cycle for > its two-wire start function. When paired with a generator like a Generac > Ecogen (exercise cycle is automatically disabled when configured with two > wire start) this means that the only way to effectively run an exercise > cycle on your generator would be to do it manually. I am wondering if > anyone has run into this issue and if there are work arounds? Kind of a > bummer and my first and only negative experience with Sol-Ark thus far. > > Kindly, > > Chris Sparadeo > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Wed Nov 11 22:03:29 2020 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 03:03:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle In-Reply-To: References: <7195cppmfvfk15c5kjt81qv6.1605111860552@email.lge.com> Message-ID: <538416316.4736885.1605150210000@mail.yahoo.com> Hi folks--We've also been disappointed with the Sol-Ark two-wire generator start. The unit starts at the charge set point, but the inverter will shut down for about a minute every time the generator stops running. After the minute wait, the inverter restarts and everything is fine. But it is aggravating for the homeowners to be left wondering in the dark. Sol-Ark says that when the generator shuts off, the frequency drops out of the Sol-Ark range and causes the inverter shut down. They suggested we find a way to increase the generator speed to avoid the frequency drop at shutdown. This seems like a lame suggestion, since the generator has no idea of when the batteries will be satisfied--it only responds to the on/off signal from the Sol-Ark. I would think that the unit could be programmed to ignore the frequency drop when it sends the shut off signal to the generator. The system has an an Ecogen 15kW. Not having an exercise function is also a miss. As mentioned below, the time of use can be used, but one has to go out and play with the programming to check the generator. regards, bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com On Wednesday, November 11, 2020, 8:20:57 PM EST, Chris Sparadeo wrote: Thanks for the suggestion, Jay.  Yes, the Sol-Ark has a very basic and limited AGS for 2 wire compatible gen sets. Gen start can be programmed with voltage or SOC, however gen stop is not a function that can not be readily programmed. Instead, the Sol-Ark is programmed to charge the battery bank to 90% of  the rated Ah capacity of the battery bank before turning off the generator. You can ultimately adjust this gen stop parameter to be based on a specific SOC or voltage, but I believe that doing so requires a call into tech support. The tech I spoke with updated a setting (having to do with a TOU parameter I believe) that was not accessible via the system interface. AGS  from Schnieder, Outback and even Magnum are less clunky, but I am hoping that Sol-Ark will eventually come out with new programming to remediate these minor but nevertheless, important issues -Chris On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 3:58 PM Jay wrote: Hi Chris I would install a timer. There are many dry contact dc or ac powered with a high degree of programmability.  A question about the normal function of the AGS. I’ve talked to a few people that have mentioned that the ags has its own fuzzy logic, with limited programming. And they have had issues with it not turning on or not turning off  What do you say? Jay On Nov 11, 2020, at 10:43 AM, Glenn Burt wrote:  I believe the Atkinson GSCM could be used to do this. -GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. ------ Original message------From: Chris SparadeoDate: Wed, Nov 11, 2020 11:16 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle Hi all, According to Sol-Ark tech support, they do not currently have a programmable exercise cycle forits two-wire start function. When paired with a generator like a Generac Ecogen (exercise cycle is automatically disabled when configured with two wire start) this means that the only way to effectively run an exercise cycle on your generator would be to do it manually. I am wondering if anyone has run into this issue and if there are work arounds? Kind of a bummer and my first and only negative experience with Sol-Ark thus far.  Kindly, Chris Sparadeo -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458H_802-728-3059_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458H_802-728-3059_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 09:08:51 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 07:08:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle In-Reply-To: <538416316.4736885.1605150210000@mail.yahoo.com> References: <538416316.4736885.1605150210000@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6D9F250F-CCC3-429D-9848-096424053185@gmail.com> Hi Bill In the past I’ve had similar issues with generators/inverters. Usually a relay on the output power wires that opens( disconnects) when the stop signal is sent works as the frequency doesn’t slowly go down, it drops to 0 instantly. I don’t know if it will fix your issue. Seems like solark needs to greatly improve their firmware. Jay Peltz power. > On Nov 11, 2020, at 8:03 PM, Bill Hennessy wrote: > >  > Hi folks--We've also been disappointed with the Sol-Ark two-wire generator start. The unit starts at the charge set point, but the inverter will shut down for about a minute every time the generator stops running. After the minute wait, the inverter restarts and everything is fine. But it is aggravating for the homeowners to be left wondering in the dark. > > Sol-Ark says that when the generator shuts off, the frequency drops out of the Sol-Ark range and causes the inverter shut down. > They suggested we find a way to increase the generator speed to avoid the frequency drop at shutdown. This seems like a lame suggestion, since the generator has no idea of when the batteries will be satisfied--it only responds to the on/off signal from the Sol-Ark. I would think that the unit could be programmed to ignore the frequency drop when it sends the shut off signal to the generator. The system has an an Ecogen 15kW. > > Not having an exercise function is also a miss. As mentioned below, the time of use can be used, but one has to go out and play with the programming to check the generator. > > regards, bill > > Bill Hennessy > Berks Solar, LLC > 371 Centennial Rd > Mertztown, PA 19539 > > o 610 682 4300 > c 484 560 4666 > NABCEP certified installer > PA contractor #44411 > www.berkssolar.com > > > On Wednesday, November 11, 2020, 8:20:57 PM EST, Chris Sparadeo wrote: > > > Thanks for the suggestion, Jay. > > Yes, the Sol-Ark has a very basic and limited AGS for 2 wire compatible gen sets. Gen start can be programmed with voltage or SOC, however gen stop is not a function that can not be readily programmed. Instead, the Sol-Ark is programmed to charge the battery bank to 90% of the rated Ah capacity of the battery bank before turning off the generator. You can ultimately adjust this gen stop parameter to be based on a specific SOC or voltage, but I believe that doing so requires a call into tech support. The tech I spoke with updated a setting (having to do with a TOU parameter I believe) that was not accessible via the system interface. AGS from Schnieder, Outback and even Magnum are less clunky, but I am hoping that Sol-Ark will eventually come out with new programming to remediate these minor but nevertheless, important issues > > -Chris > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 3:58 PM Jay wrote: > Hi Chris > > I would install a timer. There are many dry contact dc or ac powered with a high degree of programmability. > > A question about the normal function of the AGS. I’ve talked to a few people that have mentioned that the ags has its own fuzzy logic, with limited programming. And they have had issues with it not turning on or not turning off > > What do you say? > > Jay > >>> On Nov 11, 2020, at 10:43 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: >>> >>  >> I believe the Atkinson GSCM could be used to do this. >> >> -Glenn >> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >> >> ------ Original message------ >> From: Chris Sparadeo >> Date: Wed, Nov 11, 2020 11:16 AM >> To: RE-wrenches; >> Cc: >> Subject:[RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle >> >> Hi all, >> >> According to Sol-Ark tech support, they do not currently have a programmable exercise cycle for >> its two-wire start function. When paired with a generator like a Generac Ecogen (exercise cycle is automatically disabled when configured with two wire start) this means that the only way to effectively run an exercise cycle on your generator would be to do it manually. I am wondering if anyone has run into this issue and if there are work arounds? Kind of a bummer and my first and only negative experience with Sol-Ark thus far. >> >> Kindly, >> >> Chris Sparadeo >> -- >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> >> C_802-369-4458 >> H_802-728-3059 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gseelhorst at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 09:15:58 2020 From: gseelhorst at gmail.com (Gregory Seelhorst) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 08:15:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for Alternative 2-pole Breaker for Square D Homeline Message-ID: Obi-Wrench Kenobis - In Southern CA we are finding it more and more challenging to find reliable sources of Square D *HOMELINE* 2-pole breakers for Solar Circuit and Monitoring tie-ins. Other than buying Homeline Single-Pole Breakers and using Handle-Ties, does anyone have an alternative or reliable vendor source (online or brick & mortar), or 2-pole breaker manufacturer accepted by Square D? I know Eaton says their breakers are 'compatible' ("Notes: Replacement for Square D Homeline") , but not sure if anyone has sought exceptions by Schneider or had issues with Inspectors or Electricians for New Home Construction who don't allow Eaton breakers in their Square D panels. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi5i-f_l_3sAhUKQ60KHRl9AK0QFjABegQIAhAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpe.eaton.com%2Fprint%2FCL220&usg=AOvVaw09s9thehkBFMFpDJvT5J82 Regards, Greg Seelhorst Cedar Park, Tx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nathanjstumpff at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 11:15:52 2020 From: nathanjstumpff at gmail.com (Nathan J. Stumpff) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 08:15:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Legacy Xantrex Central INV firmware Message-ID: Hi all, I am attempting to get ahold of the following firmware for the Xantrex GT500: V151-0134-22 Any help appreciated! -Nathan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dustin at sol-ark.com Thu Nov 12 11:46:35 2020 From: dustin at sol-ark.com (Dustin Douglas) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 10:46:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle In-Reply-To: <6D9F250F-CCC3-429D-9848-096424053185@gmail.com> References: <538416316.4736885.1605150210000@mail.yahoo.com> <6D9F250F-CCC3-429D-9848-096424053185@gmail.com> Message-ID: <175bd5a0959.1161895ed311904.2021688664065811884@sol-ark.com> Hi All, First and foremost thank you for sharing your experiences the the Sol-Ark system. We try very hard to have different capabilities and add new features that make it flexible for the customer. The two-wire start is a feature however that we want to be seamless. In the instance where the customer is seeing the system shutdown once the generator shuts off has been addressed and fixed with a software update. With this update we are able to handle larger generators that tend to drift from 60hz. Please give our support team a call so that we can update the customer accordingly. We are also looking at adding more features including the ability exercise the generator in the near feature.  Thank you and have a blessed day, Dustin Douglas Sol Ark Engineering Support (972) 575-8875 x 108 http://www.sol-ark.com/ ---- On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 08:08:51 -0600 Jay wrote ---- Hi Bill In the past I’ve had similar issues with generators/inverters. Usually a relay on the output power wires that opens( disconnects) when the stop signal is sent works as the frequency doesn’t slowly go down, it drops to 0 instantly.  I don’t know if it will fix your issue.  Seems like solark needs to greatly improve their firmware.  Jay Peltz power.  On Nov 11, 2020, at 8:03 PM, Bill Hennessy wrote: Hi folks--We've also been disappointed with the Sol-Ark two-wire generator start. The unit starts at the charge set point, but the inverter will shut down for about a minute every time the generator stops running. After the minute wait, the inverter restarts and everything is fine. But it is aggravating for the homeowners to be left wondering in the dark. Sol-Ark says that when the generator shuts off, the frequency drops out of the Sol-Ark range and causes the inverter shut down. They suggested we find a way to increase the generator speed to avoid the frequency drop at shutdown. This seems like a lame suggestion, since the generator has no idea of when the batteries will be satisfied--it only responds to the on/off signal from the Sol-Ark. I would think that the unit could be programmed to ignore the frequency drop when it sends the shut off signal to the generator. The system has an an Ecogen 15kW. Not having an exercise function is also a miss. As mentioned below, the time of use can be used, but one has to go out and play with the programming to check the generator. regards, bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com On Wednesday, November 11, 2020, 8:20:57 PM EST, Chris Sparadeo wrote: Thanks for the suggestion, Jay.  Yes, the Sol-Ark has a very basic and limited AGS for 2 wire compatible gen sets. Gen start can be programmed with voltage or SOC, however gen stop is not a function that can not be readily programmed. Instead, the Sol-Ark is programmed to charge the battery bank to 90% of  the rated Ah capacity of the battery bank before turning off the generator. You can ultimately adjust this gen stop parameter to be based on a specific SOC or voltage, but I believe that doing so requires a call into tech support. The tech I spoke with updated a setting (having to do with a TOU parameter I believe) that was not accessible via the system interface. AGS  from Schnieder, Outback and even Magnum are less clunky, but I am hoping that Sol-Ark will eventually come out with new programming to remediate these minor but nevertheless, important issues -Chris On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 3:58 PM Jay wrote: Hi Chris I would install a timer. There are many dry contact dc or ac powered with a high degree of programmability.  A question about the normal function of the AGS. I’ve talked to a few people that have mentioned that the ags has its own fuzzy logic, with limited programming. And they have had issues with it not turning on or not turning off  What do you say? Jay On Nov 11, 2020, at 10:43 AM, Glenn Burt wrote:  I believe the Atkinson GSCM could be used to do this. -Glenn Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. ------ Original message------ From: Chris Sparadeo Date: Wed, Nov 11, 2020 11:16 AM To: RE-wrenches; Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle Hi all, According to Sol-Ark tech support, they do not currently have a programmable exercise cycle for its two-wire start function. When paired with a generator like a Generac Ecogen (exercise cycle is automatically disabled when configured with two wire start) this means that the only way to effectively run an exercise cycle on your generator would be to do it manually. I am wondering if anyone has run into this issue and if there are work arounds? Kind of a bummer and my first and only negative experience with Sol-Ark thus far.  Kindly, Chris Sparadeo  -- Chris Sparadeo C_null H_null _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 13:01:39 2020 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 10:01:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle In-Reply-To: <538416316.4736885.1605150210000@mail.yahoo.com> References: <538416316.4736885.1605150210000@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <57C63CE1-2175-49B9-8EF3-8F0D19C3AA34@gmail.com> We’ve had the same issue. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Nov 11, 2020, at 11:53 PM, Bill Hennessy wrote: > >  > Hi folks--We've also been disappointed with the Sol-Ark two-wire generator start. The unit starts at the charge set point, but the inverter will shut down for about a minute every time the generator stops running. After the minute wait, the inverter restarts and everything is fine. But it is aggravating for the homeowners to be left wondering in the dark. > > Sol-Ark says that when the generator shuts off, the frequency drops out of the Sol-Ark range and causes the inverter shut down. > They suggested we find a way to increase the generator speed to avoid the frequency drop at shutdown. This seems like a lame suggestion, since the generator has no idea of when the batteries will be satisfied--it only responds to the on/off signal from the Sol-Ark. I would think that the unit could be programmed to ignore the frequency drop when it sends the shut off signal to the generator. The system has an an Ecogen 15kW. > > Not having an exercise function is also a miss. As mentioned below, the time of use can be used, but one has to go out and play with the programming to check the generator. > > regards, bill > > Bill Hennessy > Berks Solar, LLC > 371 Centennial Rd > Mertztown, PA 19539 > > o 610 682 4300 > c 484 560 4666 > NABCEP certified installer > PA contractor #44411 > www.berkssolar.com > > > On Wednesday, November 11, 2020, 8:20:57 PM EST, Chris Sparadeo wrote: > > > Thanks for the suggestion, Jay. > > Yes, the Sol-Ark has a very basic and limited AGS for 2 wire compatible gen sets. Gen start can be programmed with voltage or SOC, however gen stop is not a function that can not be readily programmed. Instead, the Sol-Ark is programmed to charge the battery bank to 90% of the rated Ah capacity of the battery bank before turning off the generator. You can ultimately adjust this gen stop parameter to be based on a specific SOC or voltage, but I believe that doing so requires a call into tech support. The tech I spoke with updated a setting (having to do with a TOU parameter I believe) that was not accessible via the system interface. AGS from Schnieder, Outback and even Magnum are less clunky, but I am hoping that Sol-Ark will eventually come out with new programming to remediate these minor but nevertheless, important issues > > -Chris > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 3:58 PM Jay wrote: > Hi Chris > > I would install a timer. There are many dry contact dc or ac powered with a high degree of programmability. > > A question about the normal function of the AGS. I’ve talked to a few people that have mentioned that the ags has its own fuzzy logic, with limited programming. And they have had issues with it not turning on or not turning off > > What do you say? > > Jay > >>> On Nov 11, 2020, at 10:43 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: >>> >>  >> I believe the Atkinson GSCM could be used to do this. >> >> -Glenn >> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >> >> ------ Original message------ >> From: Chris Sparadeo >> Date: Wed, Nov 11, 2020 11:16 AM >> To: RE-wrenches; >> Cc: >> Subject:[RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle >> >> Hi all, >> >> According to Sol-Ark tech support, they do not currently have a programmable exercise cycle for >> its two-wire start function. When paired with a generator like a Generac Ecogen (exercise cycle is automatically disabled when configured with two wire start) this means that the only way to effectively run an exercise cycle on your generator would be to do it manually. I am wondering if anyone has run into this issue and if there are work arounds? Kind of a bummer and my first and only negative experience with Sol-Ark thus far. >> >> Kindly, >> >> Chris Sparadeo >> -- >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> >> C_802-369-4458 >> H_802-728-3059 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Thu Nov 12 21:41:52 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 21:41:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle In-Reply-To: <553bb7a2-9f3d-b54f-0796-b66aad3fbf22@villagelab.net> References: <538416316.4736885.1605150210000@mail.yahoo.com> <6D9F250F-CCC3-429D-9848-096424053185@gmail.com> <175bd5a0959.1161895ed311904.2021688664065811884@sol-ark.com> <553bb7a2-9f3d-b54f-0796-b66aad3fbf22@villagelab.net> Message-ID: Thanks Dustin for keeping us up to date on Sol-Arks feature progress. While you are upgrading your firmware: :) So an essential feature for off-grid with a generator is to be able to program various SOC levels for generator start AND shuf-off after charge.  90% is way too high for many sunny climes and other configurations.  Often batteries need a boost in the wee morning hours - when they drop below the preferred recharge point but that's only perhaps a few hours before the sun comes up - So say you want to start a gen to charge a Lead-acid battery at 50% or an LFP batter at 20% SOC but you only want to bring it through to the next often or possibly sunny morning.  So you set it to run from 50% to 65% (or from 20%-40% for LFP) - knowing that the morning sun will take it the rest of the way.  90% would waste a ton of fuel in this scenario not too mention unwanted noise and wear and tear on the genny.  Depending on the clients use profile, the climate, and relative size of the array and battery and gen, these figures could vary anywhere from 20% to 100%.  So it's essential us off-grid installers have that flexibility. Also I know that your TOU settings might cover this (though not in all modes I believe) but another nice feature is to have 2 or 3 time periods with different start and stop settings (Sunny Island does this nicely).  So if the minimum SOC is reached in the evening you might as well bring it up to a higher SOC for gen shut down as it needs to get through the entire night whereas if that minimum SOC start trigger is met after 3 AM  it needs to only bring it to a lower SOC as described above. I'm loving the Sol-Ark product so far but it is obvious the software is a work in progress - the architecture and thought behind it is an excellent foundation - thanks for your work and openness for input to make it even better. Best, Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Dustin Douglas > November 12, 2020 at 11:46 AM > Hi All, > > First and foremost thank you for sharing your experiences the the > Sol-Ark system. We try very hard to have different capabilities and > add new features that make it flexible for the customer. The two-wire > start is a feature however that we want to be seamless. In the > instance where the customer is seeing the system shutdown once the > generator shuts off has been addressed and fixed with a software > update. With this update we are able to handle larger generators that > tend to drift from 60hz. Please give our support team a call so that > we can update the customer accordingly. We are also looking at adding > more features including the ability exercise the generator in the near > feature. > > Thank you and have a blessed day, > > Dustin Douglas > > Sol Ark Engineering Support > > (972) 575-8875 x 108 > > www.sol-ark.com > > > ---- On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 08:08:51 -0600 *Jay * > wrote ---- > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jay > November 12, 2020 at 9:08 AM > Hi Bill > > In the past I’ve had similar issues with generators/inverters. Usually > a relay on the output power wires that opens( disconnects) when the > stop signal is sent works as the frequency doesn’t slowly go down, it > drops to 0 instantly. > I don’t know if it will fix your issue. > > Seems like solark needs to greatly improve their firmware. > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Bill Hennessy > November 11, 2020 at 10:03 PM > Hi folks--We've also been disappointed with the Sol-Ark two-wire > generator start. The unit starts at the charge set point, but the > inverter will shut down for about a minute every time the generator > stops running. After the minute wait, the inverter restarts and > everything is fine. But it is aggravating for the homeowners to be > left wondering in the dark. > > Sol-Ark says that when the generator shuts off, the frequency drops > out of the Sol-Ark range and causes the inverter shut down. > They suggested we find a way to increase the generator speed to avoid > the frequency drop at shutdown. This seems like a lame suggestion, > since the generator has no idea of when the batteries will be > satisfied--it only responds to the on/off signal from the Sol-Ark. I > would think that the unit could be programmed to ignore the frequency > drop when it sends the shut off signal to the generator. The system > has an an Ecogen 15kW. > > Not having an exercise function is also a miss. As mentioned below, > the time of use can be used, but one has to go out and play with the > programming to check the generator. > > regards, bill > > Bill Hennessy > Berks Solar, LLC > 371 Centennial Rd > Mertztown, PA 19539 > > o 610 682 4300 > c 484 560 4666 > NABCEP certified installer > PA contractor #44411 > www.berkssolar.com > > > On Wednesday, November 11, 2020, 8:20:57 PM EST, Chris Sparadeo > wrote: > > > Thanks for the suggestion, Jay. > > Yes, the Sol-Ark has a very basic and limited AGS for 2 wire > compatible gen sets. Gen start can be programmed with voltage or SOC, > however gen stop is not a function that can not be readily programmed. > Instead, the Sol-Ark is programmed to charge the battery bank to 90% > of  the rated Ah capacity of the battery bank before turning off the > generator. You can ultimately adjust this gen stop parameter to be > based on a specific SOC or voltage, but I believe that doing so > requires a call into tech support. The tech I spoke with updated a > setting (having to do with a TOU parameter I believe) that was not > accessible via the system interface. AGS  from Schnieder, Outback and > even Magnum are less clunky, but I am hoping that Sol-Ark will > eventually come out with new programming to remediate these minor but > nevertheless, important issues > > -Chris > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 3:58 PM Jay > wrote: > > > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 09:46:31 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 07:46:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1685AA4E-09A8-4154-BA4B-272B8A3C98C8@gmail.com> I’m wondering how the firmware is updated? USB or other? I’ve looked on the website but I couldn’t find any instructions. Thx Jay > On Nov 12, 2020, at 7:58 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > >  Thanks Dustin for keeping us up to date on Sol-Arks feature progress. > > While you are upgrading your firmware: :) > > So an essential feature for off-grid with a generator is to be able to program various SOC levels for generator start AND shuf-off after charge. 90% is way too high for many sunny climes and other configurations. Often batteries need a boost in the wee morning hours - when they drop below the preferred recharge point but that's only perhaps a few hours before the sun comes up - So say you want to start a gen to charge a Lead-acid battery at 50% or an LFP batter at 20% SOC but you only want to bring it through to the next often or possibly sunny morning. So you set it to run from 50% to 65% (or from 20%-40% for LFP) - knowing that the morning sun will take it the rest of the way. 90% would waste a ton of fuel in this scenario not too mention unwanted noise and wear and tear on the genny. Depending on the clients use profile, the climate, and relative size of the array and battery and gen, these figures could vary anywhere from 20% to 100%. So it's essential us off-grid installers have that flexibility. > > Also I know that your TOU settings might cover this (though not in all modes I believe) but another nice feature is to have 2 or 3 time periods with different start and stop settings (Sunny Island does this nicely). So if the minimum SOC is reached in the evening you might as well bring it up to a higher SOC for gen shut down as it needs to get through the entire night whereas if that minimum SOC start trigger is met after 3 AM it needs to only bring it to a lower SOC as described above. > > I'm loving the Sol-Ark product so far but it is obvious the software is a work in progress - the architecture and thought behind it is an excellent foundation - thanks for your work and openness for input to make it even better. > > Best, > > Jeff > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > >> Dustin Douglas November 12, 2020 at 11:46 AM >> Hi All, >> >> First and foremost thank you for sharing your experiences the the Sol-Ark system. We try very hard to have different capabilities and add new features that make it flexible for the customer. The two-wire start is a feature however that we want to be seamless. In the instance where the customer is seeing the system shutdown once the generator shuts off has been addressed and fixed with a software update. With this update we are able to handle larger generators that tend to drift from 60hz. Please give our support team a call so that we can update the customer accordingly. We are also looking at adding more features including the ability exercise the generator in the near feature. >> >> Thank you and have a blessed day, >> Dustin Douglas >> Sol Ark Engineering Support >> (972) 575-8875 x 108 >> www.sol-ark.com >> >> >> ---- On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 08:08:51 -0600 Jay wrote ---- >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> Jay November 12, 2020 at 9:08 AM >> Hi Bill >> >> In the past I’ve had similar issues with generators/inverters. Usually a relay on the output power wires that opens( disconnects) when the stop signal is sent works as the frequency doesn’t slowly go down, it drops to 0 instantly. >> I don’t know if it will fix your issue. >> >> Seems like solark needs to greatly improve their firmware. >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> Bill Hennessy November 11, 2020 at 10:03 PM >> Hi folks--We've also been disappointed with the Sol-Ark two-wire generator start. The unit starts at the charge set point, but the inverter will shut down for about a minute every time the generator stops running. After the minute wait, the inverter restarts and everything is fine. But it is aggravating for the homeowners to be left wondering in the dark. >> >> Sol-Ark says that when the generator shuts off, the frequency drops out of the Sol-Ark range and causes the inverter shut down. >> They suggested we find a way to increase the generator speed to avoid the frequency drop at shutdown. This seems like a lame suggestion, since the generator has no idea of when the batteries will be satisfied--it only responds to the on/off signal from the Sol-Ark. I would think that the unit could be programmed to ignore the frequency drop when it sends the shut off signal to the generator. The system has an an Ecogen 15kW. >> >> Not having an exercise function is also a miss. As mentioned below, the time of use can be used, but one has to go out and play with the programming to check the generator. >> >> regards, bill >> >> Bill Hennessy >> Berks Solar, LLC >> 371 Centennial Rd >> Mertztown, PA 19539 >> >> o 610 682 4300 >> c 484 560 4666 >> NABCEP certified installer >> PA contractor #44411 >> www.berkssolar.com >> >> >> On Wednesday, November 11, 2020, 8:20:57 PM EST, Chris Sparadeo wrote: >> >> >> Thanks for the suggestion, Jay. >> >> Yes, the Sol-Ark has a very basic and limited AGS for 2 wire compatible gen sets. Gen start can be programmed with voltage or SOC, however gen stop is not a function that can not be readily programmed. Instead, the Sol-Ark is programmed to charge the battery bank to 90% of the rated Ah capacity of the battery bank before turning off the generator. You can ultimately adjust this gen stop parameter to be based on a specific SOC or voltage, but I believe that doing so requires a call into tech support. The tech I spoke with updated a setting (having to do with a TOU parameter I believe) that was not accessible via the system interface. AGS from Schnieder, Outback and even Magnum are less clunky, but I am hoping that Sol-Ark will eventually come out with new programming to remediate these minor but nevertheless, important issues >> >> -Chris >> >> On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 3:58 PM Jay wrote: >> >> >> -- >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> >> C_802-369-4458 >> H_802-728-3059 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 10:15:45 2020 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 07:15:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle In-Reply-To: <1685AA4E-09A8-4154-BA4B-272B8A3C98C8@gmail.com> References: <1685AA4E-09A8-4154-BA4B-272B8A3C98C8@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, You need to call Sol Ark tech support and they will push the update through the Internet directly to your inverter, I had one done yesterday and it went smoothly. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Nov 13, 2020, at 7:03 AM, Jay wrote: > >  > I’m wondering how the firmware is updated? USB or other? I’ve looked on the website but I couldn’t find any instructions. > > Thx > Jay > > > >>> On Nov 12, 2020, at 7:58 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >>> >>  Thanks Dustin for keeping us up to date on Sol-Arks feature progress. >> >> While you are upgrading your firmware: :) >> >> So an essential feature for off-grid with a generator is to be able to program various SOC levels for generator start AND shuf-off after charge. 90% is way too high for many sunny climes and other configurations. Often batteries need a boost in the wee morning hours - when they drop below the preferred recharge point but that's only perhaps a few hours before the sun comes up - So say you want to start a gen to charge a Lead-acid battery at 50% or an LFP batter at 20% SOC but you only want to bring it through to the next often or possibly sunny morning. So you set it to run from 50% to 65% (or from 20%-40% for LFP) - knowing that the morning sun will take it the rest of the way. 90% would waste a ton of fuel in this scenario not too mention unwanted noise and wear and tear on the genny. Depending on the clients use profile, the climate, and relative size of the array and battery and gen, these figures could vary anywhere from 20% to 100%. So it's essential us off-grid installers have that flexibility. >> >> Also I know that your TOU settings might cover this (though not in all modes I believe) but another nice feature is to have 2 or 3 time periods with different start and stop settings (Sunny Island does this nicely). So if the minimum SOC is reached in the evening you might as well bring it up to a higher SOC for gen shut down as it needs to get through the entire night whereas if that minimum SOC start trigger is met after 3 AM it needs to only bring it to a lower SOC as described above. >> >> I'm loving the Sol-Ark product so far but it is obvious the software is a work in progress - the architecture and thought behind it is an excellent foundation - thanks for your work and openness for input to make it even better. >> >> Best, >> >> Jeff >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> linkedin >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> cell - 413-559-9763 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> >> >>> Dustin Douglas November 12, 2020 at 11:46 AM >>> Hi All, >>> >>> First and foremost thank you for sharing your experiences the the Sol-Ark system. We try very hard to have different capabilities and add new features that make it flexible for the customer. The two-wire start is a feature however that we want to be seamless. In the instance where the customer is seeing the system shutdown once the generator shuts off has been addressed and fixed with a software update. With this update we are able to handle larger generators that tend to drift from 60hz. Please give our support team a call so that we can update the customer accordingly. We are also looking at adding more features including the ability exercise the generator in the near feature. >>> >>> Thank you and have a blessed day, >>> Dustin Douglas >>> Sol Ark Engineering Support >>> (972) 575-8875 x 108 >>> www.sol-ark.com >>> >>> >>> ---- On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 08:08:51 -0600 Jay wrote ---- >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Jay November 12, 2020 at 9:08 AM >>> Hi Bill >>> >>> In the past I’ve had similar issues with generators/inverters. Usually a relay on the output power wires that opens( disconnects) when the stop signal is sent works as the frequency doesn’t slowly go down, it drops to 0 instantly. >>> I don’t know if it will fix your issue. >>> >>> Seems like solark needs to greatly improve their firmware. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> Peltz power. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Bill Hennessy November 11, 2020 at 10:03 PM >>> Hi folks--We've also been disappointed with the Sol-Ark two-wire generator start. The unit starts at the charge set point, but the inverter will shut down for about a minute every time the generator stops running. After the minute wait, the inverter restarts and everything is fine. But it is aggravating for the homeowners to be left wondering in the dark. >>> >>> Sol-Ark says that when the generator shuts off, the frequency drops out of the Sol-Ark range and causes the inverter shut down. >>> They suggested we find a way to increase the generator speed to avoid the frequency drop at shutdown. This seems like a lame suggestion, since the generator has no idea of when the batteries will be satisfied--it only responds to the on/off signal from the Sol-Ark. I would think that the unit could be programmed to ignore the frequency drop when it sends the shut off signal to the generator. The system has an an Ecogen 15kW. >>> >>> Not having an exercise function is also a miss. As mentioned below, the time of use can be used, but one has to go out and play with the programming to check the generator. >>> >>> regards, bill >>> >>> Bill Hennessy >>> Berks Solar, LLC >>> 371 Centennial Rd >>> Mertztown, PA 19539 >>> >>> o 610 682 4300 >>> c 484 560 4666 >>> NABCEP certified installer >>> PA contractor #44411 >>> www.berkssolar.com >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, November 11, 2020, 8:20:57 PM EST, Chris Sparadeo wrote: >>> >>> >>> Thanks for the suggestion, Jay. >>> >>> Yes, the Sol-Ark has a very basic and limited AGS for 2 wire compatible gen sets. Gen start can be programmed with voltage or SOC, however gen stop is not a function that can not be readily programmed. Instead, the Sol-Ark is programmed to charge the battery bank to 90% of the rated Ah capacity of the battery bank before turning off the generator. You can ultimately adjust this gen stop parameter to be based on a specific SOC or voltage, but I believe that doing so requires a call into tech support. The tech I spoke with updated a setting (having to do with a TOU parameter I believe) that was not accessible via the system interface. AGS from Schnieder, Outback and even Magnum are less clunky, but I am hoping that Sol-Ark will eventually come out with new programming to remediate these minor but nevertheless, important issues >>> >>> -Chris >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 3:58 PM Jay wrote: >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Chris Sparadeo >>> >>> >>> C_802-369-4458 >>> H_802-728-3059 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Nov 13 10:50:51 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 07:50:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle In-Reply-To: References: <538416316.4736885.1605150210000@mail.yahoo.com> <6D9F250F-CCC3-429D-9848-096424053185@gmail.com> <175bd5a0959.1161895ed311904.2021688664065811884@sol-ark.com> <553bb7a2-9f3d-b54f-0796-b66aad3fbf22@villagelab.net> Message-ID: <742a6346179c1856bf8e281014249eef@127.0.0.1> Totally unacceptable to use Sol-Arc if firmware can only be done with an internet connection. All of these AGS issues are not what I need for my clients. If they can't start the genset when they are home then I do not want to be involved. I like the devils that I know. Insight and Optics work fine. I do not need new ways to get a headache. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Nov 13 10:44:05 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 07:44:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle In-Reply-To: References: <1685AA4E-09A8-4154-BA4B-272B8A3C98C8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8cdd64dbc859f3afb306e2f0708d4f3e@mail.gmail.com> Michael: What if the site is not connected to the internet? William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *MDElectricSolar *Sent:* Friday, November 13, 2020 7:16 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jeff Clearwater *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle Jay, You need to call Sol Ark tech support and they will push the update through the Internet directly to your inverter, I had one done yesterday and it went smoothly. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar On Nov 13, 2020, at 7:03 AM, Jay wrote:  I’m wondering how the firmware is updated? USB or other? I’ve looked on the website but I couldn’t find any instructions. Thx Jay On Nov 12, 2020, at 7:58 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote:  Thanks Dustin for keeping us up to date on Sol-Arks feature progress. While you are upgrading your firmware: :) So an essential feature for off-grid with a generator is to be able to program various SOC levels for generator start AND shuf-off after charge. 90% is way too high for many sunny climes and other configurations. Often batteries need a boost in the wee morning hours - when they drop below the preferred recharge point but that's only perhaps a few hours before the sun comes up - So say you want to start a gen to charge a Lead-acid battery at 50% or an LFP batter at 20% SOC but you only want to bring it through to the next often or possibly sunny morning. So you set it to run from 50% to 65% (or from 20%-40% for LFP) - knowing that the morning sun will take it the rest of the way. 90% would waste a ton of fuel in this scenario not too mention unwanted noise and wear and tear on the genny. Depending on the clients use profile, the climate, and relative size of the array and battery and gen, these figures could vary anywhere from 20% to 100%. So it's essential us off-grid installers have that flexibility. Also I know that your TOU settings might cover this (though not in all modes I believe) but another nice feature is to have 2 or 3 time periods with different start and stop settings (Sunny Island does this nicely). So if the minimum SOC is reached in the evening you might as well bring it up to a higher SOC for gen shut down as it needs to get through the entire night whereas if that minimum SOC start trigger is met after 3 AM it needs to only bring it to a lower SOC as described above. I'm loving the Sol-Ark product so far but it is obvious the software is a work in progress - the architecture and thought behind it is an excellent foundation - thanks for your work and openness for input to make it even better. Best, Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dustin Douglas November 12, 2020 at 11:46 AM Hi All, First and foremost thank you for sharing your experiences the the Sol-Ark system. We try very hard to have different capabilities and add new features that make it flexible for the customer. The two-wire start is a feature however that we want to be seamless. In the instance where the customer is seeing the system shutdown once the generator shuts off has been addressed and fixed with a software update. With this update we are able to handle larger generators that tend to drift from 60hz. Please give our support team a call so that we can update the customer accordingly. We are also looking at adding more features including the ability exercise the generator in the near feature. Thank you and have a blessed day, Dustin Douglas Sol Ark Engineering Support (972) 575-8875 x 108 www.sol-ark.com ---- On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 08:08:51 -0600 *Jay * wrote ---- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Jay November 12, 2020 at 9:08 AM Hi Bill In the past I’ve had similar issues with generators/inverters. Usually a relay on the output power wires that opens( disconnects) when the stop signal is sent works as the frequency doesn’t slowly go down, it drops to 0 instantly. I don’t know if it will fix your issue. Seems like solark needs to greatly improve their firmware. Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Bill Hennessy November 11, 2020 at 10:03 PM Hi folks--We've also been disappointed with the Sol-Ark two-wire generator start. The unit starts at the charge set point, but the inverter will shut down for about a minute every time the generator stops running. After the minute wait, the inverter restarts and everything is fine. But it is aggravating for the homeowners to be left wondering in the dark. Sol-Ark says that when the generator shuts off, the frequency drops out of the Sol-Ark range and causes the inverter shut down. They suggested we find a way to increase the generator speed to avoid the frequency drop at shutdown. This seems like a lame suggestion, since the generator has no idea of when the batteries will be satisfied--it only responds to the on/off signal from the Sol-Ark. I would think that the unit could be programmed to ignore the frequency drop when it sends the shut off signal to the generator. The system has an an Ecogen 15kW. Not having an exercise function is also a miss. As mentioned below, the time of use can be used, but one has to go out and play with the programming to check the generator. regards, bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com On Wednesday, November 11, 2020, 8:20:57 PM EST, Chris Sparadeo wrote: Thanks for the suggestion, Jay. Yes, the Sol-Ark has a very basic and limited AGS for 2 wire compatible gen sets. Gen start can be programmed with voltage or SOC, however gen stop is not a function that can not be readily programmed. Instead, the Sol-Ark is programmed to charge the battery bank to 90% of the rated Ah capacity of the battery bank before turning off the generator. You can ultimately adjust this gen stop parameter to be based on a specific SOC or voltage, but I believe that doing so requires a call into tech support. The tech I spoke with updated a setting (having to do with a TOU parameter I believe) that was not accessible via the system interface. AGS from Schnieder, Outback and even Magnum are less clunky, but I am hoping that Sol-Ark will eventually come out with new programming to remediate these minor but nevertheless, important issues -Chris On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 3:58 PM Jay wrote: -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dustin at sol-ark.com Fri Nov 13 10:57:00 2020 From: dustin at sol-ark.com (Dustin Douglas) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 09:57:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle In-Reply-To: <1685AA4E-09A8-4154-BA4B-272B8A3C98C8@gmail.com> References: <1685AA4E-09A8-4154-BA4B-272B8A3C98C8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <175c252ff52.b918b1c4474720.8930947757016690473@sol-ark.com> The Time of Use feature can support this request. I do understand that programming can be somewhat confusing in completely covering what you are wanting the generator can do. However, if you are wanting the generator to turn on only when the batteries are low and getting through the night then we can set the Time of Use to only turn on with specific  hours and also charge up to specific SOC. We implemented this setting so that there is the ability to control how much fuel is used and not run the gen for long periods of time. The Time of Use settings are very customizable, if you would like to give our support team a call and we can help customize it to best fit your scenario. As for updating the system itself, we offer different avenues of doing so. The first is the Wi-fi dongle that is connected to the inverter and to the customers home network. We also offer different aftermarket versions for customers with specific needs or if they don't have internet altogether. There is a ethernet version for those that don't want the over the air (OTA) connection to there wireless network or possibly if there router itself is a little to far away from where the unit is located. Simply running a ethernet cable to this specific dongle will connect them for monitoring and also allow for updates. The final version is for those true off grid installs where they are not worried about monitoring but do need to get the system updated. We have developed a custom design dongle that once inserted into the unit will perform the update on the inverter locally. Plug it in and wait for the final part of the software to finish and now your system will have the current version of software. You can then remove it and adjust the settings for the new features that were added. Thank you and have a blessed day, Dustin Douglas Sol Ark Engineering Support (972) 575-8875 x 108 http://www.sol-ark.com/ ---- On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 08:46:31 -0600 Jay wrote ---- I’m wondering how the firmware is updated?  USB or other?  I’ve looked on the website but I couldn’t find any instructions.  Thx Jay On Nov 12, 2020, at 7:58 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote:  Thanks Dustin for keeping us up to date on Sol-Arks feature progress. While you are upgrading your firmware: :) So an essential feature for off-grid with a generator is to be able to program various SOC levels for generator start AND shuf-off after charge.  90% is way too high for many sunny climes and other configurations.  Often batteries need a boost in the wee morning hours - when they drop below the preferred recharge point but that's only perhaps a few hours before the sun comes up - So say you want to start a gen to charge a Lead-acid battery at 50% or an LFP batter at 20% SOC but you only want to bring it through to the next often or possibly sunny morning.  So you set it to run from 50% to 65% (or from 20%-40% for LFP) - knowing that the morning sun will take it the rest of the way.  90% would waste a ton of fuel in this scenario not too mention unwanted noise and wear and tear on the genny.  Depending on the clients use profile, the climate, and relative size of the array and battery and gen, these figures could vary anywhere from 20% to 100%.  So it's essential us off-grid installers have that flexibility. Also I know that your TOU settings might cover this (though not in all modes I believe) but another nice feature is to have 2 or 3 time periods with different start and stop settings (Sunny Island does this nicely).  So if the minimum SOC is reached in the evening you might as well bring it up to a higher SOC for gen shut down as it needs to get through the entire night whereas if that minimum SOC start trigger is met after 3 AM  it needs to only bring it to a lower SOC as described above. I'm loving the Sol-Ark product so far but it is obvious the software is a work in progress - the architecture and thought behind it is an excellent foundation - thanks for your work and openness for input to make it even better. Best, Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/ http://www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ mailto:dustin at sol-ark.com November 12, 2020 at 11:46 AM Hi All, First and foremost thank you for sharing your experiences the the Sol-Ark system. We try very hard to have different capabilities and add new features that make it flexible for the customer. The two-wire start is a feature however that we want to be seamless. In the instance where the customer is seeing the system shutdown once the generator shuts off has been addressed and fixed with a software update. With this update we are able to handle larger generators that tend to drift from 60hz. Please give our support team a call so that we can update the customer accordingly. We are also looking at adding more features including the ability exercise the generator in the near feature.  Thank you and have a blessed day, Dustin Douglas Sol Ark Engineering Support (972) 575-8875 x 108 http://www.sol-ark.com/ ---- On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 08:08:51 -0600 Jay mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com wrote ---- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com November 12, 2020 at 9:08 AM Hi Bill In the past I’ve had similar issues with generators/inverters. Usually a relay on the output power wires that opens( disconnects) when the stop signal is sent works as the frequency doesn’t slowly go down, it drops to 0 instantly.  I don’t know if it will fix your issue.  Seems like solark needs to greatly improve their firmware.  Jay Peltz power.  _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org mailto:bill at berkssolar.com November 11, 2020 at 10:03 PM Hi folks--We've also been disappointed with the Sol-Ark two-wire generator start. The unit starts at the charge set point, but the inverter will shut down for about a minute every time the generator stops running. After the minute wait, the inverter restarts and everything is fine. But it is aggravating for the homeowners to be left wondering in the dark. Sol-Ark says that when the generator shuts off, the frequency drops out of the Sol-Ark range and causes the inverter shut down. They suggested we find a way to increase the generator speed to avoid the frequency drop at shutdown. This seems like a lame suggestion, since the generator has no idea of when the batteries will be satisfied--it only responds to the on/off signal from the Sol-Ark. I would think that the unit could be programmed to ignore the frequency drop when it sends the shut off signal to the generator. The system has an an Ecogen 15kW. Not having an exercise function is also a miss. As mentioned below, the time of use can be used, but one has to go out and play with the programming to check the generator. regards, bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 http://www.berkssolar.com On Wednesday, November 11, 2020, 8:20:57 PM EST, Chris Sparadeo mailto:sparadeo.chris at gmail.com wrote: Thanks for the suggestion, Jay.  Yes, the Sol-Ark has a very basic and limited AGS for 2 wire compatible gen sets. Gen start can be programmed with voltage or SOC, however gen stop is not a function that can not be readily programmed. Instead, the Sol-Ark is programmed to charge the battery bank to 90% of  the rated Ah capacity of the battery bank before turning off the generator. You can ultimately adjust this gen stop parameter to be based on a specific SOC or voltage, but I believe that doing so requires a call into tech support. The tech I spoke with updated a setting (having to do with a TOU parameter I believe) that was not accessible via the system interface. AGS  from Schnieder, Outback and even Magnum are less clunky, but I am hoping that Sol-Ark will eventually come out with new programming to remediate these minor but nevertheless, important issues -Chris On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 3:58 PM Jay wrote: -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 11:01:33 2020 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 08:01:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle In-Reply-To: <8cdd64dbc859f3afb306e2f0708d4f3e@mail.gmail.com> References: <8cdd64dbc859f3afb306e2f0708d4f3e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <106AD4A4-4973-4B94-AC13-2B72A6B113D6@gmail.com> William, Haven’t had that come up yet. I don’t see why they can’t email the file to you and then you can upload it directly on site. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Nov 13, 2020, at 7:54 AM, William Miller wrote: > >  > Michael: > > What if the site is not connected to the internet? > > William > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of MDElectricSolar > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 7:16 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jeff Clearwater > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle > > Jay, > You need to call Sol Ark tech support and they will push the update through the Internet directly to your inverter, I had one done yesterday and it went smoothly. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > On Nov 13, 2020, at 7:03 AM, Jay wrote: > >  > I’m wondering how the firmware is updated? USB or other? I’ve looked on the website but I couldn’t find any instructions. > > Thx > Jay > > > > > On Nov 12, 2020, at 7:58 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > >  Thanks Dustin for keeping us up to date on Sol-Arks feature progress. > > While you are upgrading your firmware: :) > > So an essential feature for off-grid with a generator is to be able to program various SOC levels for generator start AND shuf-off after charge. 90% is way too high for many sunny climes and other configurations. Often batteries need a boost in the wee morning hours - when they drop below the preferred recharge point but that's only perhaps a few hours before the sun comes up - So say you want to start a gen to charge a Lead-acid battery at 50% or an LFP batter at 20% SOC but you only want to bring it through to the next often or possibly sunny morning. So you set it to run from 50% to 65% (or from 20%-40% for LFP) - knowing that the morning sun will take it the rest of the way. 90% would waste a ton of fuel in this scenario not too mention unwanted noise and wear and tear on the genny. Depending on the clients use profile, the climate, and relative size of the array and battery and gen, these figures could vary anywhere from 20% to 100%. So it's essential us off-grid installers have that flexibility. > > Also I know that your TOU settings might cover this (though not in all modes I believe) but another nice feature is to have 2 or 3 time periods with different start and stop settings (Sunny Island does this nicely). So if the minimum SOC is reached in the evening you might as well bring it up to a higher SOC for gen shut down as it needs to get through the entire night whereas if that minimum SOC start trigger is met after 3 AM it needs to only bring it to a lower SOC as described above. > > I'm loving the Sol-Ark product so far but it is obvious the software is a work in progress - the architecture and thought behind it is an excellent foundation - thanks for your work and openness for input to make it even better. > > Best, > > Jeff > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > Dustin Douglas > November 12, 2020 at 11:46 AM > Hi All, > > First and foremost thank you for sharing your experiences the the Sol-Ark system. We try very hard to have different capabilities and add new features that make it flexible for the customer. The two-wire start is a feature however that we want to be seamless. In the instance where the customer is seeing the system shutdown once the generator shuts off has been addressed and fixed with a software update. With this update we are able to handle larger generators that tend to drift from 60hz. Please give our support team a call so that we can update the customer accordingly. We are also looking at adding more features including the ability exercise the generator in the near feature. > > Thank you and have a blessed day, > Dustin Douglas > Sol Ark Engineering Support > (972) 575-8875 x 108 > www.sol-ark.com > > > ---- On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 08:08:51 -0600 Jay wrote ---- > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jay > November 12, 2020 at 9:08 AM > Hi Bill > > In the past I’ve had similar issues with generators/inverters. Usually a relay on the output power wires that opens( disconnects) when the stop signal is sent works as the frequency doesn’t slowly go down, it drops to 0 instantly. > I don’t know if it will fix your issue. > > Seems like solark needs to greatly improve their firmware. > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Bill Hennessy > November 11, 2020 at 10:03 PM > Hi folks--We've also been disappointed with the Sol-Ark two-wire generator start. The unit starts at the charge set point, but the inverter will shut down for about a minute every time the generator stops running. After the minute wait, the inverter restarts and everything is fine. But it is aggravating for the homeowners to be left wondering in the dark. > > Sol-Ark says that when the generator shuts off, the frequency drops out of the Sol-Ark range and causes the inverter shut down. > They suggested we find a way to increase the generator speed to avoid the frequency drop at shutdown. This seems like a lame suggestion, since the generator has no idea of when the batteries will be satisfied--it only responds to the on/off signal from the Sol-Ark. I would think that the unit could be programmed to ignore the frequency drop when it sends the shut off signal to the generator. The system has an an Ecogen 15kW. > > Not having an exercise function is also a miss. As mentioned below, the time of use can be used, but one has to go out and play with the programming to check the generator. > > regards, bill > > Bill Hennessy > Berks Solar, LLC > 371 Centennial Rd > Mertztown, PA 19539 > > o 610 682 4300 > c 484 560 4666 > NABCEP certified installer > PA contractor #44411 > www.berkssolar.com > > > On Wednesday, November 11, 2020, 8:20:57 PM EST, Chris Sparadeo wrote: > > > Thanks for the suggestion, Jay. > > Yes, the Sol-Ark has a very basic and limited AGS for 2 wire compatible gen sets. Gen start can be programmed with voltage or SOC, however gen stop is not a function that can not be readily programmed. Instead, the Sol-Ark is programmed to charge the battery bank to 90% of the rated Ah capacity of the battery bank before turning off the generator. You can ultimately adjust this gen stop parameter to be based on a specific SOC or voltage, but I believe that doing so requires a call into tech support. The tech I spoke with updated a setting (having to do with a TOU parameter I believe) that was not accessible via the system interface. AGS from Schnieder, Outback and even Magnum are less clunky, but I am hoping that Sol-Ark will eventually come out with new programming to remediate these minor but nevertheless, important issues > > -Chris > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 3:58 PM Jay wrote: > > > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 11:05:37 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 09:05:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle In-Reply-To: <175c252ff52.b918b1c4474720.8930947757016690473@sol-ark.com> References: <1685AA4E-09A8-4154-BA4B-272B8A3C98C8@gmail.com> <175c252ff52.b918b1c4474720.8930947757016690473@sol-ark.com> Message-ID: <7EB88429-DD2A-4FF5-8F6E-F9C993DE1645@gmail.com> HI Dustin, Can you elaborate on the custom dongle for the non internet people. As its custom it sounds like its not a standard USB or SD or MSD? How much does it cost and can it be updated from a computer and then taken to the job site? Many if not most of my clients have no to limited internet and many that do, don’t want internet connection for their equipment. thanks Jay Peltz Power > On Nov 13, 2020, at 8:57 AM, Dustin Douglas wrote: > > The Time of Use feature can support this request. I do understand that programming can be somewhat confusing in completely covering what you are wanting the generator can do. However, if you are wanting the generator to turn on only when the batteries are low and getting through the night then we can set the Time of Use to only turn on with specific hours and also charge up to specific SOC. We implemented this setting so that there is the ability to control how much fuel is used and not run the gen for long periods of time. The Time of Use settings are very customizable, if you would like to give our support team a call and we can help customize it to best fit your scenario. > > As for updating the system itself, we offer different avenues of doing so. The first is the Wi-fi dongle that is connected to the inverter and to the customers home network. We also offer different aftermarket versions for customers with specific needs or if they don't have internet altogether. There is a ethernet version for those that don't want the over the air (OTA) connection to there wireless network or possibly if there router itself is a little to far away from where the unit is located. Simply running a ethernet cable to this specific dongle will connect them for monitoring and also allow for updates. The final version is for those true off grid installs where they are not worried about monitoring but do need to get the system updated. We have developed a custom design dongle that once inserted into the unit will perform the update on the inverter locally. Plug it in and wait for the final part of the software to finish and now your system will have the current version of software. You can then remove it and adjust the settings for the new features that were added. > > Thank you and have a blessed day, > Dustin Douglas > Sol Ark Engineering Support > (972) 575-8875 x 108 > www.sol-ark.com > > > ---- On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 08:46:31 -0600 Jay wrote ---- > > I’m wondering how the firmware is updated? USB or other? I’ve looked on the website but I couldn’t find any instructions. > > Thx > Jay > > > > On Nov 12, 2020, at 7:58 PM, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > >  Thanks Dustin for keeping us up to date on Sol-Arks feature progress. > > While you are upgrading your firmware: :) > > So an essential feature for off-grid with a generator is to be able to program various SOC levels for generator start AND shuf-off after charge. 90% is way too high for many sunny climes and other configurations. Often batteries need a boost in the wee morning hours - when they drop below the preferred recharge point but that's only perhaps a few hours before the sun comes up - So say you want to start a gen to charge a Lead-acid battery at 50% or an LFP batter at 20% SOC but you only want to bring it through to the next often or possibly sunny morning. So you set it to run from 50% to 65% (or from 20%-40% for LFP) - knowing that the morning sun will take it the rest of the way. 90% would waste a ton of fuel in this scenario not too mention unwanted noise and wear and tear on the genny. Depending on the clients use profile, the climate, and relative size of the array and battery and gen, these figures could vary anywhere from 20% to 100%. So it's essential us off-grid installers have that flexibility. > > Also I know that your TOU settings might cover this (though not in all modes I believe) but another nice feature is to have 2 or 3 time periods with different start and stop settings (Sunny Island does this nicely). So if the minimum SOC is reached in the evening you might as well bring it up to a higher SOC for gen shut down as it needs to get through the entire night whereas if that minimum SOC start trigger is met after 3 AM it needs to only bring it to a lower SOC as described above. > > I'm loving the Sol-Ark product so far but it is obvious the software is a work in progress - the architecture and thought behind it is an excellent foundation - thanks for your work and openness for input to make it even better. > > Best, > > Jeff > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > Dustin Douglas > November 12, 2020 at 11:46 AM > Hi All, > > First and foremost thank you for sharing your experiences the the Sol-Ark system. We try very hard to have different capabilities and add new features that make it flexible for the customer. The two-wire start is a feature however that we want to be seamless. In the instance where the customer is seeing the system shutdown once the generator shuts off has been addressed and fixed with a software update. With this update we are able to handle larger generators that tend to drift from 60hz. Please give our support team a call so that we can update the customer accordingly. We are also looking at adding more features including the ability exercise the generator in the near feature. > > Thank you and have a blessed day, > Dustin Douglas > Sol Ark Engineering Support > (972) 575-8875 x 108 > www.sol-ark.com > > > ---- On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 08:08:51 -0600 Jay wrote ---- > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jay > November 12, 2020 at 9:08 AM > Hi Bill > > In the past I’ve had similar issues with generators/inverters. Usually a relay on the output power wires that opens( disconnects) when the stop signal is sent works as the frequency doesn’t slowly go down, it drops to 0 instantly. > I don’t know if it will fix your issue. > > Seems like solark needs to greatly improve their firmware. > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Bill Hennessy > November 11, 2020 at 10:03 PM > Hi folks--We've also been disappointed with the Sol-Ark two-wire generator start. The unit starts at the charge set point, but the inverter will shut down for about a minute every time the generator stops running. After the minute wait, the inverter restarts and everything is fine. But it is aggravating for the homeowners to be left wondering in the dark. > > Sol-Ark says that when the generator shuts off, the frequency drops out of the Sol-Ark range and causes the inverter shut down. > They suggested we find a way to increase the generator speed to avoid the frequency drop at shutdown. This seems like a lame suggestion, since the generator has no idea of when the batteries will be satisfied--it only responds to the on/off signal from the Sol-Ark. I would think that the unit could be programmed to ignore the frequency drop when it sends the shut off signal to the generator. The system has an an Ecogen 15kW. > > Not having an exercise function is also a miss. As mentioned below, the time of use can be used, but one has to go out and play with the programming to check the generator. > > regards, bill > > Bill Hennessy > Berks Solar, LLC > 371 Centennial Rd > Mertztown, PA 19539 > > o 610 682 4300 > c 484 560 4666 > NABCEP certified installer > PA contractor #44411 > www.berkssolar.com > > > On Wednesday, November 11, 2020, 8:20:57 PM EST, Chris Sparadeo wrote: > > > Thanks for the suggestion, Jay. > > Yes, the Sol-Ark has a very basic and limited AGS for 2 wire compatible gen sets. Gen start can be programmed with voltage or SOC, however gen stop is not a function that can not be readily programmed. Instead, the Sol-Ark is programmed to charge the battery bank to 90% of the rated Ah capacity of the battery bank before turning off the generator. You can ultimately adjust this gen stop parameter to be based on a specific SOC or voltage, but I believe that doing so requires a call into tech support. The tech I spoke with updated a setting (having to do with a TOU parameter I believe) that was not accessible via the system interface. AGS from Schnieder, Outback and even Magnum are less clunky, but I am hoping that Sol-Ark will eventually come out with new programming to remediate these minor but nevertheless, important issues > > -Chris > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 3:58 PM Jay > wrote: > > > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dustin at sol-ark.com Fri Nov 13 11:31:10 2020 From: dustin at sol-ark.com (Dustin Douglas) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 10:31:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle In-Reply-To: <7EB88429-DD2A-4FF5-8F6E-F9C993DE1645@gmail.com> References: <1685AA4E-09A8-4154-BA4B-272B8A3C98C8@gmail.com> <175c252ff52.b918b1c4474720.8930947757016690473@sol-ark.com> <7EB88429-DD2A-4FF5-8F6E-F9C993DE1645@gmail.com> Message-ID: <175c2724711.fa37f4c0480678.6635482409704772895@sol-ark.com> It is the same hardware as the dongle we provide with the unit and plugs directly into the Sol Ark Wi-fi port just like it would in a normal project, however the difference is that we customized the software to auto-update the inverter without the need for internet. This dongle is only compatible the Sol-Ark unit. We are currently sending them with the most up to date software for the units, but will be able to modify the software on the dongle so that it can be used for different versions of the Sol-Ark. The cost of the hardware is $100. We are wanting to add different options especially for those that are truly off grid. Thank you and have a blessed day, Dustin Douglas Sol Ark Engineering Support (972) 575-8875 x 108 http://www.sol-ark.com/ ---- On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 10:05:37 -0600 jay wrote ---- HI Dustin, Can you elaborate on the custom dongle for the non internet people.  As its custom it sounds like its not a standard USB or SD or MSD? How much does it cost and can it be updated from a computer and then taken to the job site? Many if not most of my clients have no to limited internet and many that do,  don’t want internet connection for their equipment.  thanks Jay Peltz Power On Nov 13, 2020, at 8:57 AM, Dustin Douglas wrote: The Time of Use feature can support this request. I do understand that programming can be somewhat confusing in completely covering what you are wanting the generator can do. However, if you are wanting the generator to turn on only when the batteries are low and getting through the night then we can set the Time of Use to only turn on with specific  hours and also charge up to specific SOC. We implemented this setting so that there is the ability to control how much fuel is used and not run the gen for long periods of time. The Time of Use settings are very customizable, if you would like to give our support team a call and we can help customize it to best fit your scenario. As for updating the system itself, we offer different avenues of doing so. The first is the Wi-fi dongle that is connected to the inverter and to the customers home network. We also offer different aftermarket versions for customers with specific needs or if they don't have internet altogether. There is a ethernet version for those that don't want the over the air (OTA) connection to there wireless network or possibly if there router itself is a little to far away from where the unit is located. Simply running a ethernet cable to this specific dongle will connect them for monitoring and also allow for updates. The final version is for those true off grid installs where they are not worried about monitoring but do need to get the system updated. We have developed a custom design dongle that once inserted into the unit will perform the update on the inverter locally. Plug it in and wait for the final part of the software to finish and now your system will have the current version of software. You can then remove it and adjust the settings for the new features that were added. Thank you and have a blessed day, Dustin Douglas Sol Ark Engineering Support (972) 575-8875 x 108 http://www.sol-ark.com/ ---- On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 08:46:31 -0600 Jay wrote ---- I’m wondering how the firmware is updated?  USB or other?  I’ve looked on the website but I couldn’t find any instructions.  Thx Jay On Nov 12, 2020, at 7:58 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote:  Thanks Dustin for keeping us up to date on Sol-Arks feature progress. While you are upgrading your firmware: :) So an essential feature for off-grid with a generator is to be able to program various SOC levels for generator start AND shuf-off after charge.  90% is way too high for many sunny climes and other configurations.  Often batteries need a boost in the wee morning hours - when they drop below the preferred recharge point but that's only perhaps a few hours before the sun comes up - So say you want to start a gen to charge a Lead-acid battery at 50% or an LFP batter at 20% SOC but you only want to bring it through to the next often or possibly sunny morning.  So you set it to run from 50% to 65% (or from 20%-40% for LFP) - knowing that the morning sun will take it the rest of the way.  90% would waste a ton of fuel in this scenario not too mention unwanted noise and wear and tear on the genny.  Depending on the clients use profile, the climate, and relative size of the array and battery and gen, these figures could vary anywhere from 20% to 100%.  So it's essential us off-grid installers have that flexibility. Also I know that your TOU settings might cover this (though not in all modes I believe) but another nice feature is to have 2 or 3 time periods with different start and stop settings (Sunny Island does this nicely).  So if the minimum SOC is reached in the evening you might as well bring it up to a higher SOC for gen shut down as it needs to get through the entire night whereas if that minimum SOC start trigger is met after 3 AM  it needs to only bring it to a lower SOC as described above. I'm loving the Sol-Ark product so far but it is obvious the software is a work in progress - the architecture and thought behind it is an excellent foundation - thanks for your work and openness for input to make it even better. Best, Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/ http://www.villagepowerdesign.com/ cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ mailto:dustin at sol-ark.com November 12, 2020 at 11:46 AM Hi All, First and foremost thank you for sharing your experiences the the Sol-Ark system. We try very hard to have different capabilities and add new features that make it flexible for the customer. The two-wire start is a feature however that we want to be seamless. In the instance where the customer is seeing the system shutdown once the generator shuts off has been addressed and fixed with a software update. With this update we are able to handle larger generators that tend to drift from 60hz. Please give our support team a call so that we can update the customer accordingly. We are also looking at adding more features including the ability exercise the generator in the near feature.  Thank you and have a blessed day, Dustin Douglas Sol Ark Engineering Support (972) 575-8875 x 108 http://www.sol-ark.com/ ---- On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 08:08:51 -0600 Jay mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com wrote ---- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com November 12, 2020 at 9:08 AM Hi Bill In the past I’ve had similar issues with generators/inverters. Usually a relay on the output power wires that opens( disconnects) when the stop signal is sent works as the frequency doesn’t slowly go down, it drops to 0 instantly.  I don’t know if it will fix your issue.  Seems like solark needs to greatly improve their firmware.  Jay Peltz power.  _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ mailto:bill at berkssolar.com November 11, 2020 at 10:03 PM Hi folks--We've also been disappointed with the Sol-Ark two-wire generator start. The unit starts at the charge set point, but the inverter will shut down for about a minute every time the generator stops running. After the minute wait, the inverter restarts and everything is fine. But it is aggravating for the homeowners to be left wondering in the dark. Sol-Ark says that when the generator shuts off, the frequency drops out of the Sol-Ark range and causes the inverter shut down. They suggested we find a way to increase the generator speed to avoid the frequency drop at shutdown. This seems like a lame suggestion, since the generator has no idea of when the batteries will be satisfied--it only responds to the on/off signal from the Sol-Ark. I would think that the unit could be programmed to ignore the frequency drop when it sends the shut off signal to the generator. The system has an an Ecogen 15kW. Not having an exercise function is also a miss. As mentioned below, the time of use can be used, but one has to go out and play with the programming to check the generator. regards, bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 http://www.berkssolar.com/ On Wednesday, November 11, 2020, 8:20:57 PM EST, Chris Sparadeo mailto:sparadeo.chris at gmail.com wrote: Thanks for the suggestion, Jay.  Yes, the Sol-Ark has a very basic and limited AGS for 2 wire compatible gen sets. Gen start can be programmed with voltage or SOC, however gen stop is not a function that can not be readily programmed. Instead, the Sol-Ark is programmed to charge the battery bank to 90% of  the rated Ah capacity of the battery bank before turning off the generator. You can ultimately adjust this gen stop parameter to be based on a specific SOC or voltage, but I believe that doing so requires a call into tech support. The tech I spoke with updated a setting (having to do with a TOU parameter I believe) that was not accessible via the system interface. AGS  from Schnieder, Outback and even Magnum are less clunky, but I am hoping that Sol-Ark will eventually come out with new programming to remediate these minor but nevertheless, important issues -Chris On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 3:58 PM Jay wrote: -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 14:43:56 2020 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 11:43:56 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle In-Reply-To: <175c2724711.fa37f4c0480678.6635482409704772895@sol-ark.com> References: <1685AA4E-09A8-4154-BA4B-272B8A3C98C8@gmail.com> <175c252ff52.b918b1c4474720.8930947757016690473@sol-ark.com> <7EB88429-DD2A-4FF5-8F6E-F9C993DE1645@gmail.com> <175c2724711.fa37f4c0480678.6635482409704772895@sol-ark.com> Message-ID: Sol-Ark tech support has been fantastic to work with. Mike On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 9:09 AM Dustin Douglas wrote: > It is the same hardware as the dongle we provide with the unit and plugs > directly into the Sol Ark Wi-fi port just like it would in a normal > project, however the difference is that we customized the software to > auto-update the inverter without the need for internet. This dongle is only > compatible the Sol-Ark unit. We are currently sending them with the most up > to date software for the units, but will be able to modify the software on > the dongle so that it can be used for different versions of the Sol-Ark. > The cost of the hardware is $100. We are wanting to add different options > especially for those that are truly off grid. > > Thank you and have a blessed day, > > Dustin Douglas > > Sol Ark Engineering Support > > (972) 575-8875 x 108 > www.sol-ark.com > > > ---- On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 10:05:37 -0600 *jay >* wrote ---- > > HI Dustin, > > Can you elaborate on the custom dongle for the non internet people. As > its custom it sounds like its not a standard USB or SD or MSD? > > How much does it cost and can it be updated from a computer and then taken > to the job site? > > Many if not most of my clients have no to limited internet and many that > do, don’t want internet connection for their equipment. > > thanks > > Jay > > Peltz Power > > > > > > > > On Nov 13, 2020, at 8:57 AM, Dustin Douglas wrote: > > The Time of Use feature can support this request. I do understand that > programming can be somewhat confusing in completely covering what you are > wanting the generator can do. However, if you are wanting the generator to > turn on only when the batteries are low and getting through the night then > we can set the Time of Use to only turn on with specific hours and also > charge up to specific SOC. We implemented this setting so that there is the > ability to control how much fuel is used and not run the gen for long > periods of time. The Time of Use settings are very customizable, if you > would like to give our support team a call and we can help customize it to > best fit your scenario. > > As for updating the system itself, we offer different avenues of doing so. > The first is the Wi-fi dongle that is connected to the inverter and to the > customers home network. We also offer different aftermarket versions for > customers with specific needs or if they don't have internet altogether. > There is a ethernet version for those that don't want the over the air > (OTA) connection to there wireless network or possibly if there router > itself is a little to far away from where the unit is located. Simply > running a ethernet cable to this specific dongle will connect them for > monitoring and also allow for updates. The final version is for those true > off grid installs where they are not worried about monitoring but do need > to get the system updated. We have developed a custom design dongle that > once inserted into the unit will perform the update on the inverter > locally. Plug it in and wait for the final part of the software to finish > and now your system will have the current version of software. You can then > remove it and adjust the settings for the new features that were added. > > Thank you and have a blessed day, > Dustin Douglas > Sol Ark Engineering Support > (972) 575-8875 x 108 > www.sol-ark.com > > > ---- On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 08:46:31 -0600 *Jay >* wrote ---- > > I’m wondering how the firmware is updated? USB or other? I’ve looked on > the website but I couldn’t find any instructions. > > Thx > Jay > > > > On Nov 12, 2020, at 7:58 PM, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > >  Thanks Dustin for keeping us up to date on Sol-Arks feature progress. > > While you are upgrading your firmware: :) > > So an essential feature for off-grid with a generator is to be able to > program various SOC levels for generator start AND shuf-off after charge. > 90% is way too high for many sunny climes and other configurations. Often > batteries need a boost in the wee morning hours - when they drop below the > preferred recharge point but that's only perhaps a few hours before the sun > comes up - So say you want to start a gen to charge a Lead-acid battery at > 50% or an LFP batter at 20% SOC but you only want to bring it through to > the next often or possibly sunny morning. So you set it to run from 50% to > 65% (or from 20%-40% for LFP) - knowing that the morning sun will take it > the rest of the way. 90% would waste a ton of fuel in this scenario not > too mention unwanted noise and wear and tear on the genny. Depending on > the clients use profile, the climate, and relative size of the array and > battery and gen, these figures could vary anywhere from 20% to 100%. So > it's essential us off-grid installers have that flexibility. > > Also I know that your TOU settings might cover this (though not in all > modes I believe) but another nice feature is to have 2 or 3 time periods > with different start and stop settings (Sunny Island does this nicely). So > if the minimum SOC is reached in the evening you might as well bring it up > to a higher SOC for gen shut down as it needs to get through the entire > night whereas if that minimum SOC start trigger is met after 3 AM it needs > to only bring it to a lower SOC as described above. > > I'm loving the Sol-Ark product so far but it is obvious the software is a > work in progress - the architecture and thought behind it is an excellent > foundation - thanks for your work and openness for input to make it even > better. > > Best, > > Jeff > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > Dustin Douglas > November 12, 2020 at 11:46 AM > Hi All, > > First and foremost thank you for sharing your experiences the the Sol-Ark > system. We try very hard to have different capabilities and add new > features that make it flexible for the customer. The two-wire start is a > feature however that we want to be seamless. In the instance where the > customer is seeing the system shutdown once the generator shuts off has > been addressed and fixed with a software update. With this update we are > able to handle larger generators that tend to drift from 60hz. Please give > our support team a call so that we can update the customer accordingly. We > are also looking at adding more features including the ability exercise the > generator in the near feature. > > Thank you and have a blessed day, > Dustin Douglas > Sol Ark Engineering Support > (972) 575-8875 x 108 > www.sol-ark.com > > > ---- On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 08:08:51 -0600 *Jay > * wrote ---- > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jay > November 12, 2020 at 9:08 AM > Hi Bill > > In the past I’ve had similar issues with generators/inverters. Usually a > relay on the output power wires that opens( disconnects) when the stop > signal is sent works as the frequency doesn’t slowly go down, it drops to 0 > instantly. > I don’t know if it will fix your issue. > > Seems like solark needs to greatly improve their firmware. > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Bill Hennessy > November 11, 2020 at 10:03 PM > Hi folks--We've also been disappointed with the Sol-Ark two-wire generator > start. The unit starts at the charge set point, but the inverter will shut > down for about a minute every time the generator stops running. After the > minute wait, the inverter restarts and everything is fine. But it is > aggravating for the homeowners to be left wondering in the dark. > > Sol-Ark says that when the generator shuts off, the frequency drops out of > the Sol-Ark range and causes the inverter shut down. > They suggested we find a way to increase the generator speed to avoid the > frequency drop at shutdown. This seems like a lame suggestion, since the > generator has no idea of when the batteries will be satisfied--it only > responds to the on/off signal from the Sol-Ark. I would think that the unit > could be programmed to ignore the frequency drop when it sends the shut off > signal to the generator. The system has an an Ecogen 15kW. > > Not having an exercise function is also a miss. As mentioned below, the > time of use can be used, but one has to go out and play with the > programming to check the generator. > > regards, bill > > Bill Hennessy > Berks Solar, LLC > 371 Centennial Rd > Mertztown, PA 19539 > > o 610 682 4300 > c 484 560 4666 > NABCEP certified installer > PA contractor #44411 > www.berkssolar.com > > > On Wednesday, November 11, 2020, 8:20:57 PM EST, Chris Sparadeo > wrote: > > > Thanks for the suggestion, Jay. > > Yes, the Sol-Ark has a very basic and limited AGS for 2 wire compatible > gen sets. Gen start can be programmed with voltage or SOC, however gen stop > is not a function that can not be readily programmed. Instead, the Sol-Ark > is programmed to charge the battery bank to 90% of the rated Ah capacity > of the battery bank before turning off the generator. You can ultimately > adjust this gen stop parameter to be based on a specific SOC or voltage, > but I believe that doing so requires a call into tech support. The tech I > spoke with updated a setting (having to do with a TOU parameter I believe) > that was not accessible via the system interface. AGS from Schnieder, > Outback and even Magnum are less clunky, but I am hoping that Sol-Ark will > eventually come out with new programming to remediate these minor but > nevertheless, important issues > > -Chris > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 3:58 PM Jay wrote: > > > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-884-1862 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From canderson at borregosolar.com Wed Nov 18 10:08:43 2020 From: canderson at borregosolar.com (Chris Anderson) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 10:08:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Frequency shift on AC coupled off grid resi system Message-ID: Wrenches community, Hope folks are well out there. I am wondering if anyone has experience addressing a frequency oscillation with a split phase off grid Sunny Island system. I am working on an off grid home project with 2 units that has just not worked right since installation. The small number of 240 volt loads and most notably the geothermal heat pump goes into a loud vibration as the frequency shifts and does so for 20 seconds, then settles down into normal operation. 45 seconds later, it does it again and just repeats itself until the water in the storage tank is up to temperature. The current draw doubles when it is vibrating and it seems to drain the batteries faster than expected when left on. Wondering if anyone out there has any thoughts or is experienced off grid tech in New England interested in some troubleshooting work to help resolve things. Please email me directly if possible at the following address - canderson at borregosolar.com Thanks and stay safe out there. -- Best, [image: Borrego Solar] *Chris Anderson* | Senior Vice President E: canderson at borregosolar.com | T: 978-513-2635 <1-510-496-8721> | C: 603.732.2411 <1-510-496-8721> Borrego Solar Systems, Inc. 55 Technology Dr. #102, Lowell, MA 01851 | www.borregosolar.com [image: borrego solar facebook] [image: borrego solar youtube] [image: borrego solar twitter] [image: borrego solar linkedin] Cultivate Potential -- The contents of this message may be privileged and confidential. Therefore, if this message has been received in error, please delete it without reading it. Your receipt of this message is not intended to waive any applicable privilege. Please do not disseminate this message without the permission of the sender.  The sender of this email may be acting on behalf of an entity or entities that are affiliated with Borrego Solar Systems, Inc. and that are involved in the subject matter of this email (“Subject Entities”). The use of “Borrego Solar Systems, Inc” in the contact information of the sender is solely for information purposes and should not be construed to implicate Borrego Solar Systems, Inc., or any of its other affiliates, for the obligations and liabilities of the Subject Entities. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Nov 18 13:30:36 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 13:30:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: <8CB409FE-E9AB-460C-BDBD-FB0F527C1767@gmail.com> Message-ID: The plot thickens on the fuse blowing issue. Again, we tore the Enphase IQ system apart looking for any reason for the fuse to keep blowing. We reconfirmed torque on all line side conductors to the service (supply side interconnection using Polaris taps). Low and behold, I get a second client with the exact same issue yesterday. The circumstances are eerily alike. Both disconnects are located on the west side of the house and have 36 IQ7+ microinverters on an IQ Combiner, requiring 60A fuses on the 60A fusible disconnect. The combined inverter output rating is 43.56A. The interconnections are identical with #6 THHN 90ºC conductors and Polaris taps. Both disconnects have conductors on the right-hand side line-side terminal that are discolored (the copper is silvery, the insulation is not burned). The fuses blow at peak current around 1:30 pm, only on bright and sunny days. I'm starting to suspect a faulty fusible disconnect switch. Maybe the blades are not making proper contact with the line side terminals. For the client who is having regular/frequent fuses blowing I plan to replace the disconnect with a heavy-duty version or possibly get a 100A disconnect with fuse reducers. I'm not sure which option would yield a better test. I might also switch brands. Currently, we are using GE TG3222R. The fuses are Bussman FRN-R Time Delay. I have to believe a heavy-duty switch would be less susceptible to this, but maybe a higher rated one would be a better option. I'm not a fan of fuse reducers, however. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 5:54 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > The tripping breaker occurred at random times, even at night. No > weather-related correlation. > > I have more research to do to see when this fuse issue is happening, but > previous visits showed no water ingress. I'm not sure about temperature. > > > > > On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 8:51 PM Jay wrote: > >> Hi Jason >> >> One thought I have about the blowing fuse is to check it with a IR tool. >> >> I suspect a poor connection of the fuse to holder which during higher air >> temp is causing it to fail. >> I’m assuming that the correct amp size and slow blow fuse Is installed >> and that the wire connections are done correctly. But again an IR tool >> during peak heat would be a good test. >> >> About the enphase fix, wow what a head scratcher. But given that it’s >> fixed it means that it’s not a short, but enough amps going through over >> enough time to trip it. I wonder if a magnetic hydraulic vs thermal breaker >> ( CBI vs CH etc) would have worked? >> >> Is that breaker box ever in the sun? Is there any Correlation between >> high ambient temperatures and tripping? >> >> It sure would keep me up at night too >> >> Jay >> >> >> On Aug 27, 2020, at 4:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>  >> So the resolution to this is in... But I still have no idea what was >> wrong. >> >> The string of 10 offending microinverters was split into 5 and 5. We had >> a spare breaker in the IQ Combiner so it was relatively easy to run another >> branch circuit. It has been over two months with no recurrence. So the >> issue seems to be resolved, but again, no idea why. >> >> So here we go again... On another system we have a similar problem now. >> In this case it is supply side interconnected with a fusible disconnect. >> The same fuse (same line) keeps blowing every few to several weeks. We >> can't find any home run wiring issues or issues with terminator caps. There >> are no apparent faults in the AC Combiner. We have no idea why this is >> happening. But in this system, just the fuse blows, not one of the >> individual branch circuit breakers. >> >> This is getting very frustrating. And this is way more serious because >> fuses and service calls are expensive and I can't isolate the issue to one >> branch circuit. I don't even know where to start. Leaving each circuit >> disconnected for several weeks to prove a negative is an untenable >> suggestion to make to a client. But I don't see any other good options. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 3:42 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> Yes, we double-checked that. I have seen that happen before and it's one >>> of my early diagnostic steps for something like this. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:18 AM Mac Lewis wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Jason, >>>> >>>> Are you certain that the branch circuits aren't crisscrossed somewhere, >>>> meaning that an L1 branch 1, isn't connected to an L2 branch 2? That could >>>> explain two different breakers tripping. >>>> >>>> Good luck >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 1:07 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Undoubtedly, the termination caps are the second thing we check after >>>>> the rooftop junction box(es). These are prone to installation errors, even >>>>> when the right parts are used. And given the cost, I've thought very long >>>>> and hard about abandoning them altogether and terminating strings in small >>>>> j-boxes with watertight fittings. But in this case, there was no evidence >>>>> of improper installation (we replaced them) and it was not correlated to >>>>> rain events. >>>>> >>>>> We are well equipped with bare Q-cable and field wireables that we >>>>> could use for troubleshooting to bypass certain sections, but the >>>>> intermittent nature of the problem and unpredictable timeframe between >>>>> faults is very frustrating. While this is a rare occurrence, it is >>>>> definitely a "con" to consider when comparing string vs. microinverters >>>>> that I had not strongly considered in the past. I'm intent on getting to >>>>> the bottom of this in order to learn what to look for in the future and how >>>>> to approach diagnoses of Enphase branch circuit faults. >>>>> >>>>> Jason >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 2:31 PM Amos Post >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I was just at a site last week where the Enphase branch circuit >>>>>> breaker, outside utility disconnect breaker, and feed breaker in the main >>>>>> panel all tripped simultaneously, and it happened about 1 hour before I >>>>>> showed up onsite. The customer said it had happened 1 other time last fall >>>>>> but that time it was just the 1 branch circuit in the Enphase combiner >>>>>> panel. Interestingly the customer mentioned that he had just washed off >>>>>> the panels, also about 1 hour before I got there. I went on the roof and >>>>>> found that the installing contractor had not put on the Enphase termination >>>>>> caps. 1 string was wire-nutted with regular wire nuts and sitting on the >>>>>> roof, and the roof was damp right there. This was a fairly flat roof. The >>>>>> other micro trunk cable was just cut with no protection at all, tied to the >>>>>> rail… >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Amos Post >>>>>> Integrity Energy >>>>>> W 802.763.7023 >>>>>> C 802.291.2188 >>>>>> ienergyVT.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Facebook >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 2:05 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> The breaker in the main panel IS tripping simultaneously with one of >>>>>> the branch circuit breakers each time. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 12:43 PM Jay wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> A question that keeps nagging me is why do these breakers trip and >>>>>>> not the breaker in the main panel? >>>>>>> Presuming there is a 40 amp in the main >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would have thought that given all the times the breakers have >>>>>>> tripped at some point that one would have tripped and I can’t understand >>>>>>> why not? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jerry Shafer >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>  >>>>>>> Wrenches >>>>>>> Looking g at the bigger breaker tripping at the same time is very >>>>>>> likely do to response time of the breaker nothing more. As l suggested in a >>>>>>> previous message. Use a non bridged breaker to see if it is one or both >>>>>>> legs that trip. Also an eguage will help to see what if anything leads up >>>>>>> to the failure and when. >>>>>>> Jerry >>>>>>> Jerry >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 7:58 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I wonder about that. Of course, it could be the "inverter output >>>>>>>> circuit" having a fault in the wiring still (an intermittent issue >>>>>>>> somewhere within the IQ cable or home run wiring). But internal to the >>>>>>>> microinverter, is it possible that a fault could still occur at night? I >>>>>>>> had a suggestion from another wrench that there are film capacitors on the >>>>>>>> AC output side, but are these isolated when there is no DC input? It seems >>>>>>>> unlikely that this would be an issue, but I have seen microinverters >>>>>>>> reporting a couple of watts at night (in Enlighten). I'm not sure how real >>>>>>>> that is. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The overriding question I have is what kind of fault would cause >>>>>>>> BOTH a branch circuit and the main solar breaker to trip simultaneously? >>>>>>>> That seems odd to me. If any normal load branch circuit has a fault, you >>>>>>>> don't often see premises main breakers tripping, or even feeder circuit >>>>>>>> breakers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I got to thinking that maybe there is some kind of issue between >>>>>>>> the BR220 and CH240 breakers not playing nicely together. But I would think >>>>>>>> this would be a well-known issue because I'm sure there are tons of CH >>>>>>>> feeder breakers in the wild with BR branch circuits downstream. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 9:25 AM < >>>>>>>> drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If it trips at night, we know it is not the output from the >>>>>>>>> inverters causing the tripping. The current must be coming from the grid. >>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 2020-06-01 12:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It's not weather. It's at all times of the day and night, and I >>>>>>>>> confirmed that there is no correlation to rain or high winds. That was my >>>>>>>>> first suspicion. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:27 AM Ray wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Is it at all weather related? Rain, or high humidity? High >>>>>>>>> temperatures? Do you have any indication what time of day it trips off at? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch >>>>>>>>> circuit breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this >>>>>>>>> time. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which >>>>>>>>> breaker they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two >>>>>>>>> weeks and then trip again. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole >>>>>>>>> system apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel >>>>>>>>> that I need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive >>>>>>>>> proposition. I really don't know what else to do at this point. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we >>>>>>>>> will see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I >>>>>>>>> have two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined >>>>>>>>> breaker. I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping >>>>>>>>> simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have >>>>>>>>> never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen >>>>>>>>> many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would >>>>>>>>> be replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and >>>>>>>>> max string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the >>>>>>>>> string's associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped >>>>>>>>> again. We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the >>>>>>>>> breaker was less than perfect from the start as we've add equally nice days >>>>>>>>> since. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 >>>>>>>>> watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra >>>>>>>>> careful going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max >>>>>>>>> published... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My story. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Scot >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>>>>>>>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>>>>>>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and >>>>>>>>> Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters >>>>>>>>> each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit >>>>>>>>> breakers and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have >>>>>>>>> been tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last >>>>>>>>> 6 months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >>>>>>>>> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, >>>>>>>>> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a >>>>>>>>> different branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped >>>>>>>>> simultaneously. We checked that branch circuit and could not find any >>>>>>>>> fault. It seems unlikely that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, >>>>>>>>> so we have now switched out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the >>>>>>>>> culprit. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers >>>>>>>>> crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another >>>>>>>>> diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One >>>>>>>>> thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible >>>>>>>>> disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line >>>>>>>>> fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if >>>>>>>>> there is in fact a fault. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase >>>>>>>>> systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned >>>>>>>>> out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on >>>>>>>>> different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault >>>>>>>>> which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out >>>>>>>>> of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This >>>>>>>>> case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 14:46:54 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 12:46:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51E3F257-8E76-467E-830B-D344A7545F47@gmail.com> Hi Jason Any chance for some photos? Jay > On Nov 18, 2020, at 12:18 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >  > The plot thickens on the fuse blowing issue. Again, we tore the Enphase IQ system apart looking for any reason for the fuse to keep blowing. We reconfirmed torque on all line side conductors to the service (supply side interconnection using Polaris taps). > > Low and behold, I get a second client with the exact same issue yesterday. The circumstances are eerily alike. Both disconnects are located on the west side of the house and have 36 IQ7+ microinverters on an IQ Combiner, requiring 60A fuses on the 60A fusible disconnect. The combined inverter output rating is 43.56A. The interconnections are identical with #6 THHN 90ºC conductors and Polaris taps. Both disconnects have conductors on the right-hand side line-side terminal that are discolored (the copper is silvery, the insulation is not burned). The fuses blow at peak current around 1:30 pm, only on bright and sunny days. > > I'm starting to suspect a faulty fusible disconnect switch. Maybe the blades are not making proper contact with the line side terminals. > > For the client who is having regular/frequent fuses blowing I plan to replace the disconnect with a heavy-duty version or possibly get a 100A disconnect with fuse reducers. I'm not sure which option would yield a better test. I might also switch brands. > > Currently, we are using GE TG3222R. The fuses are Bussman FRN-R Time Delay. I have to believe a heavy-duty switch would be less susceptible to this, but maybe a higher rated one would be a better option. I'm not a fan of fuse reducers, however. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > >> On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 5:54 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> The tripping breaker occurred at random times, even at night. No weather-related correlation. >> >> I have more research to do to see when this fuse issue is happening, but previous visits showed no water ingress. I'm not sure about temperature. >> >> >> >> >>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 8:51 PM Jay wrote: >>> Hi Jason >>> >>> One thought I have about the blowing fuse is to check it with a IR tool. >>> >>> I suspect a poor connection of the fuse to holder which during higher air temp is causing it to fail. >>> I’m assuming that the correct amp size and slow blow fuse Is installed and that the wire connections are done correctly. But again an IR tool during peak heat would be a good test. >>> >>> About the enphase fix, wow what a head scratcher. But given that it’s fixed it means that it’s not a short, but enough amps going through over enough time to trip it. I wonder if a magnetic hydraulic vs thermal breaker ( CBI vs CH etc) would have worked? >>> >>> Is that breaker box ever in the sun? Is there any Correlation between high ambient temperatures and tripping? >>> >>> It sure would keep me up at night too >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>>>> On Aug 27, 2020, at 4:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>> >>>>  >>>> So the resolution to this is in... But I still have no idea what was wrong. >>>> >>>> The string of 10 offending microinverters was split into 5 and 5. We had a spare breaker in the IQ Combiner so it was relatively easy to run another branch circuit. It has been over two months with no recurrence. So the issue seems to be resolved, but again, no idea why. >>>> >>>> So here we go again... On another system we have a similar problem now. In this case it is supply side interconnected with a fusible disconnect. The same fuse (same line) keeps blowing every few to several weeks. We can't find any home run wiring issues or issues with terminator caps. There are no apparent faults in the AC Combiner. We have no idea why this is happening. But in this system, just the fuse blows, not one of the individual branch circuit breakers. >>>> >>>> This is getting very frustrating. And this is way more serious because fuses and service calls are expensive and I can't isolate the issue to one branch circuit. I don't even know where to start. Leaving each circuit disconnected for several weeks to prove a negative is an untenable suggestion to make to a client. But I don't see any other good options. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 3:42 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>> Yes, we double-checked that. I have seen that happen before and it's one of my early diagnostic steps for something like this. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:18 AM Mac Lewis wrote: >>>>>> Hi Jason, >>>>>> >>>>>> Are you certain that the branch circuits aren't crisscrossed somewhere, meaning that an L1 branch 1, isn't connected to an L2 branch 2? That could explain two different breakers tripping. >>>>>> >>>>>> Good luck >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 1:07 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>> Undoubtedly, the termination caps are the second thing we check after the rooftop junction box(es). These are prone to installation errors, even when the right parts are used. And given the cost, I've thought very long and hard about abandoning them altogether and terminating strings in small j-boxes with watertight fittings. But in this case, there was no evidence of improper installation (we replaced them) and it was not correlated to rain events. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We are well equipped with bare Q-cable and field wireables that we could use for troubleshooting to bypass certain sections, but the intermittent nature of the problem and unpredictable timeframe between faults is very frustrating. While this is a rare occurrence, it is definitely a "con" to consider when comparing string vs. microinverters that I had not strongly considered in the past. I'm intent on getting to the bottom of this in order to learn what to look for in the future and how to approach diagnoses of Enphase branch circuit faults. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 2:31 PM Amos Post wrote: >>>>>>>> I was just at a site last week where the Enphase branch circuit breaker, outside utility disconnect breaker, and feed breaker in the main panel all tripped simultaneously, and it happened about 1 hour before I showed up onsite. The customer said it had happened 1 other time last fall but that time it was just the 1 branch circuit in the Enphase combiner panel. Interestingly the customer mentioned that he had just washed off the panels, also about 1 hour before I got there. I went on the roof and found that the installing contractor had not put on the Enphase termination caps. 1 string was wire-nutted with regular wire nuts and sitting on the roof, and the roof was damp right there. This was a fairly flat roof. The other micro trunk cable was just cut with no protection at all, tied to the rail… >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Amos Post >>>>>>>> Integrity Energy >>>>>>>> W 802.763.7023 >>>>>>>> C 802.291.2188 >>>>>>>> ienergyVT.com >>>>>>>> Facebook >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 2:05 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The breaker in the main panel IS tripping simultaneously with one of the branch circuit breakers each time. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 12:43 PM Jay wrote: >>>>>>>>>> A question that keeps nagging me is why do these breakers trip and not the breaker in the main panel? >>>>>>>>>> Presuming there is a 40 amp in the main >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I would have thought that given all the times the breakers have tripped at some point that one would have tripped and I can’t understand why not? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>>>> Wrenches >>>>>>>>>>> Looking g at the bigger breaker tripping at the same time is very likely do to response time of the breaker nothing more. As l suggested in a previous message. Use a non bridged breaker to see if it is one or both legs that trip. Also an eguage will help to see what if anything leads up to the failure and when. >>>>>>>>>>> Jerry >>>>>>>>>>> Jerry >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 7:58 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder about that. Of course, it could be the "inverter output circuit" having a fault in the wiring still (an intermittent issue somewhere within the IQ cable or home run wiring). But internal to the microinverter, is it possible that a fault could still occur at night? I had a suggestion from another wrench that there are film capacitors on the AC output side, but are these isolated when there is no DC input? It seems unlikely that this would be an issue, but I have seen microinverters reporting a couple of watts at night (in Enlighten). I'm not sure how real that is. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The overriding question I have is what kind of fault would cause BOTH a branch circuit and the main solar breaker to trip simultaneously? That seems odd to me. If any normal load branch circuit has a fault, you don't often see premises main breakers tripping, or even feeder circuit breakers. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I got to thinking that maybe there is some kind of issue between the BR220 and CH240 breakers not playing nicely together. But I would think this would be a well-known issue because I'm sure there are tons of CH feeder breakers in the wild with BR branch circuits downstream. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 9:25 AM wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> If it trips at night, we know it is not the output from the inverters causing the tripping. The current must be coming from the grid. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2020-06-01 12:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's not weather. It's at all times of the day and night, and I confirmed that there is no correlation to rain or high winds. That was my first suspicion. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:27 AM Ray wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it at all weather related? Rain, or high humidity? High temperatures? Do you have any indication what time of day it trips off at? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks and then trip again. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole system apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel that I need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive proposition. I really don't know what else to do at this point. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we will see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I have two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined breaker. I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would be replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string's associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped again. We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the breaker was less than perfect from the start as we've add equally nice days since. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra careful going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My story. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if there is in fact a fault. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Wed Nov 18 16:16:05 2020 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 16:16:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: <51E3F257-8E76-467E-830B-D344A7545F47@gmail.com> References: <51E3F257-8E76-467E-830B-D344A7545F47@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jason, Bright sunny days, disconnect on the west side of house, maybe in the sun? 43.56A * 1.25 for continuous duty = 54.45A. If these disconnects are also baking in the sun, maybe the extra ambient heat is enough to push it over the edge? Just a thought. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 3:41 PM Jay wrote: > Hi Jason > > Any chance for some photos? > > Jay > > On Nov 18, 2020, at 12:18 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >  > The plot thickens on the fuse blowing issue. Again, we tore the Enphase IQ > system apart looking for any reason for the fuse to keep blowing. We > reconfirmed torque on all line side conductors to the service (supply side > interconnection using Polaris taps). > > Low and behold, I get a second client with the exact same issue yesterday. > The circumstances are eerily alike. Both disconnects are located on the > west side of the house and have 36 IQ7+ microinverters on an IQ > Combiner, requiring 60A fuses on the 60A fusible disconnect. The combined > inverter output rating is 43.56A. The interconnections are identical with > #6 THHN 90ºC conductors and Polaris taps. Both disconnects have conductors > on the right-hand side line-side terminal that are discolored (the copper > is silvery, the insulation is not burned). The fuses blow at peak current > around 1:30 pm, only on bright and sunny days. > > I'm starting to suspect a faulty fusible disconnect switch. Maybe the > blades are not making proper contact with the line side terminals. > > For the client who is having regular/frequent fuses blowing I plan to > replace the disconnect with a heavy-duty version or possibly get a 100A > disconnect with fuse reducers. I'm not sure which option would yield a > better test. I might also switch brands. > > Currently, we are using GE TG3222R. The fuses are Bussman FRN-R Time > Delay. I have to believe a heavy-duty switch would be less susceptible to > this, but maybe a higher rated one would be a better option. I'm not a fan > of fuse reducers, however. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 5:54 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> The tripping breaker occurred at random times, even at night. No >> weather-related correlation. >> >> I have more research to do to see when this fuse issue is happening, but >> previous visits showed no water ingress. I'm not sure about temperature. >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 8:51 PM Jay wrote: >> >>> Hi Jason >>> >>> One thought I have about the blowing fuse is to check it with a IR tool. >>> >>> I suspect a poor connection of the fuse to holder which during higher >>> air temp is causing it to fail. >>> I’m assuming that the correct amp size and slow blow fuse Is installed >>> and that the wire connections are done correctly. But again an IR tool >>> during peak heat would be a good test. >>> >>> About the enphase fix, wow what a head scratcher. But given that it’s >>> fixed it means that it’s not a short, but enough amps going through over >>> enough time to trip it. I wonder if a magnetic hydraulic vs thermal breaker >>> ( CBI vs CH etc) would have worked? >>> >>> Is that breaker box ever in the sun? Is there any Correlation between >>> high ambient temperatures and tripping? >>> >>> It sure would keep me up at night too >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> On Aug 27, 2020, at 4:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> So the resolution to this is in... But I still have no idea what was >>> wrong. >>> >>> The string of 10 offending microinverters was split into 5 and 5. We had >>> a spare breaker in the IQ Combiner so it was relatively easy to run another >>> branch circuit. It has been over two months with no recurrence. So the >>> issue seems to be resolved, but again, no idea why. >>> >>> So here we go again... On another system we have a similar problem now. >>> In this case it is supply side interconnected with a fusible disconnect. >>> The same fuse (same line) keeps blowing every few to several weeks. We >>> can't find any home run wiring issues or issues with terminator caps. There >>> are no apparent faults in the AC Combiner. We have no idea why this is >>> happening. But in this system, just the fuse blows, not one of the >>> individual branch circuit breakers. >>> >>> This is getting very frustrating. And this is way more serious because >>> fuses and service calls are expensive and I can't isolate the issue to one >>> branch circuit. I don't even know where to start. Leaving each circuit >>> disconnected for several weeks to prove a negative is an untenable >>> suggestion to make to a client. But I don't see any other good options. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 3:42 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Yes, we double-checked that. I have seen that happen before and it's >>>> one of my early diagnostic steps for something like this. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:18 AM Mac Lewis wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Jason, >>>>> >>>>> Are you certain that the branch circuits aren't crisscrossed >>>>> somewhere, meaning that an L1 branch 1, isn't connected to an L2 branch 2? >>>>> That could explain two different breakers tripping. >>>>> >>>>> Good luck >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 1:07 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Undoubtedly, the termination caps are the second thing we check after >>>>>> the rooftop junction box(es). These are prone to installation errors, even >>>>>> when the right parts are used. And given the cost, I've thought very long >>>>>> and hard about abandoning them altogether and terminating strings in small >>>>>> j-boxes with watertight fittings. But in this case, there was no evidence >>>>>> of improper installation (we replaced them) and it was not correlated to >>>>>> rain events. >>>>>> >>>>>> We are well equipped with bare Q-cable and field wireables that we >>>>>> could use for troubleshooting to bypass certain sections, but the >>>>>> intermittent nature of the problem and unpredictable timeframe between >>>>>> faults is very frustrating. While this is a rare occurrence, it is >>>>>> definitely a "con" to consider when comparing string vs. microinverters >>>>>> that I had not strongly considered in the past. I'm intent on getting to >>>>>> the bottom of this in order to learn what to look for in the future and how >>>>>> to approach diagnoses of Enphase branch circuit faults. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 2:31 PM Amos Post < >>>>>> integrityenergy101 at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I was just at a site last week where the Enphase branch circuit >>>>>>> breaker, outside utility disconnect breaker, and feed breaker in the main >>>>>>> panel all tripped simultaneously, and it happened about 1 hour before I >>>>>>> showed up onsite. The customer said it had happened 1 other time last fall >>>>>>> but that time it was just the 1 branch circuit in the Enphase combiner >>>>>>> panel. Interestingly the customer mentioned that he had just washed off >>>>>>> the panels, also about 1 hour before I got there. I went on the roof and >>>>>>> found that the installing contractor had not put on the Enphase termination >>>>>>> caps. 1 string was wire-nutted with regular wire nuts and sitting on the >>>>>>> roof, and the roof was damp right there. This was a fairly flat roof. The >>>>>>> other micro trunk cable was just cut with no protection at all, tied to the >>>>>>> rail… >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Amos Post >>>>>>> Integrity Energy >>>>>>> W 802.763.7023 >>>>>>> C 802.291.2188 >>>>>>> ienergyVT.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Facebook >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 2:05 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The breaker in the main panel IS tripping simultaneously with one of >>>>>>> the branch circuit breakers each time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 12:43 PM Jay wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A question that keeps nagging me is why do these breakers trip and >>>>>>>> not the breaker in the main panel? >>>>>>>> Presuming there is a 40 amp in the main >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would have thought that given all the times the breakers have >>>>>>>> tripped at some point that one would have tripped and I can’t understand >>>>>>>> why not? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jerry Shafer >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>> Wrenches >>>>>>>> Looking g at the bigger breaker tripping at the same time is very >>>>>>>> likely do to response time of the breaker nothing more. As l suggested in a >>>>>>>> previous message. Use a non bridged breaker to see if it is one or both >>>>>>>> legs that trip. Also an eguage will help to see what if anything leads up >>>>>>>> to the failure and when. >>>>>>>> Jerry >>>>>>>> Jerry >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 7:58 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I wonder about that. Of course, it could be the "inverter output >>>>>>>>> circuit" having a fault in the wiring still (an intermittent issue >>>>>>>>> somewhere within the IQ cable or home run wiring). But internal to the >>>>>>>>> microinverter, is it possible that a fault could still occur at night? I >>>>>>>>> had a suggestion from another wrench that there are film capacitors on the >>>>>>>>> AC output side, but are these isolated when there is no DC input? It seems >>>>>>>>> unlikely that this would be an issue, but I have seen microinverters >>>>>>>>> reporting a couple of watts at night (in Enlighten). I'm not sure how real >>>>>>>>> that is. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The overriding question I have is what kind of fault would cause >>>>>>>>> BOTH a branch circuit and the main solar breaker to trip simultaneously? >>>>>>>>> That seems odd to me. If any normal load branch circuit has a fault, you >>>>>>>>> don't often see premises main breakers tripping, or even feeder circuit >>>>>>>>> breakers. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I got to thinking that maybe there is some kind of issue between >>>>>>>>> the BR220 and CH240 breakers not playing nicely together. But I would think >>>>>>>>> this would be a well-known issue because I'm sure there are tons of CH >>>>>>>>> feeder breakers in the wild with BR branch circuits downstream. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 9:25 AM < >>>>>>>>> drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If it trips at night, we know it is not the output from the >>>>>>>>>> inverters causing the tripping. The current must be coming from the grid. >>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 2020-06-01 12:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It's not weather. It's at all times of the day and night, and I >>>>>>>>>> confirmed that there is no correlation to rain or high winds. That was my >>>>>>>>>> first suspicion. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:27 AM Ray wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is it at all weather related? Rain, or high humidity? High >>>>>>>>>> temperatures? Do you have any indication what time of day it trips off at? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch >>>>>>>>>> circuit breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this >>>>>>>>>> time. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which >>>>>>>>>> breaker they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two >>>>>>>>>> weeks and then trip again. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole >>>>>>>>>> system apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel >>>>>>>>>> that I need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive >>>>>>>>>> proposition. I really don't know what else to do at this point. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we >>>>>>>>>> will see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I >>>>>>>>>> have two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined >>>>>>>>>> breaker. I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping >>>>>>>>>> simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have >>>>>>>>>> never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen >>>>>>>>>> many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would >>>>>>>>>> be replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and >>>>>>>>>> max string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the >>>>>>>>>> string's associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped >>>>>>>>>> again. We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the >>>>>>>>>> breaker was less than perfect from the start as we've add equally nice days >>>>>>>>>> since. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 >>>>>>>>>> watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra >>>>>>>>>> careful going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max >>>>>>>>>> published... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> My story. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Scot >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>>>>>>>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with >>>>>>>>>> and Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 >>>>>>>>>> microinverters each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit >>>>>>>>>> breakers and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have >>>>>>>>>> been tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last >>>>>>>>>> 6 months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >>>>>>>>>> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, >>>>>>>>>> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a >>>>>>>>>> different branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped >>>>>>>>>> simultaneously. We checked that branch circuit and could not find any >>>>>>>>>> fault. It seems unlikely that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, >>>>>>>>>> so we have now switched out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the >>>>>>>>>> culprit. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my >>>>>>>>>> fingers crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on >>>>>>>>>> another diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. >>>>>>>>>> One thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a >>>>>>>>>> fusible disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two >>>>>>>>>> line fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on >>>>>>>>>> if there is in fact a fault. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase >>>>>>>>>> systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned >>>>>>>>>> out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on >>>>>>>>>> different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault >>>>>>>>>> which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out >>>>>>>>>> of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This >>>>>>>>>> case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 17:03:13 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 17:03:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle In-Reply-To: <175dc425b19.fb3052831170564.9190248760912045866@sol-ark.com> References: <175dc425b19.fb3052831170564.9190248760912045866@sol-ark.com> Message-ID: Hi Dustin, I appreciate you checking in on this. I have to admit, after realizing the limited generator capabilities of the Sol-Ark, I was put off. I spoke with one of your support technicians who literally said “ I mean, we could have our engineers create programming to exercise generators, it’s just a matter of us spending the money to do so. It’s not a common ask and I doubt we will do it”. For fully off-grid clients, generator health is immeasurably important. The generator is often the last line of defense from a total system shut down. I’m hopeful that Sol-Ark will join the other leading off-grid manufacturers in the industry and incorporate a comprehensive generator function. Other than crucial AGS shortcomings, I really do love the Sol-Ark unit as well as your tech support. I am thankful that you have been so willing to accommodate change. Kindly, Chris On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 11:49 AM Dustin Douglas wrote: > Hi Chris, > > I am not sure if I addressed this with the previous string but I did want > to mention that we are looking add different features for the generators. > One of these is adding the ability to exercise the generators, especially > with ones that have the feature disable if the two-wire start is used. We > are always trying to make it more effective for customers and installers > and this is a feature we have been wanting to add for the generator > applications. > > > Thank you and have a blessed day, > > Dustin Douglas > > Sol Ark Engineering Support > > (972) 575-8875 x 108 > www.sol-ark.com > > > > ---- On Wed, 11 Nov 2020 10:07:24 -0600 *Chris Sparadeo > >* wrote ---- > > Hi all, > > According to Sol-Ark tech support, they do not currently have a > programmable exercise cycle for > its two-wire start function. When paired with a generator like a Generac > Ecogen (exercise cycle is automatically disabled when configured with two > wire start) this means that the only way to effectively run an exercise > cycle on your generator would be to do it manually. I am wondering if > anyone has run into this issue and if there are work arounds? Kind of a > bummer and my first and only negative experience with Sol-Ark thus far. > > Kindly, > > Chris Sparadeo > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Nov 18 17:06:02 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 17:06:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: <51E3F257-8E76-467E-830B-D344A7545F47@gmail.com> Message-ID: That's what I am thinking. And the IQ7+ max current is actually about 2% higher than rated and we have a 1.3x DC to AC ratio so I would not be surprised if all microinverters are completely maxed out for brief periods at peak sun. I'm working on getting pictures from one of my tech's phones. I think we have one of the discolored wire. On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 4:16 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Jason, > Bright sunny days, disconnect on the west side of house, maybe in the sun? > 43.56A * 1.25 for continuous duty = 54.45A. If these disconnects are also > baking in the sun, maybe the extra ambient heat is enough to push it over > the edge? Just a thought. > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > > On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 3:41 PM Jay wrote: > >> Hi Jason >> >> Any chance for some photos? >> >> Jay >> >> On Nov 18, 2020, at 12:18 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>  >> The plot thickens on the fuse blowing issue. Again, we tore the Enphase >> IQ system apart looking for any reason for the fuse to keep blowing. We >> reconfirmed torque on all line side conductors to the service (supply side >> interconnection using Polaris taps). >> >> Low and behold, I get a second client with the exact same issue >> yesterday. The circumstances are eerily alike. Both disconnects are located >> on the west side of the house and have 36 IQ7+ microinverters on an IQ >> Combiner, requiring 60A fuses on the 60A fusible disconnect. The combined >> inverter output rating is 43.56A. The interconnections are identical with >> #6 THHN 90ºC conductors and Polaris taps. Both disconnects have conductors >> on the right-hand side line-side terminal that are discolored (the copper >> is silvery, the insulation is not burned). The fuses blow at peak current >> around 1:30 pm, only on bright and sunny days. >> >> I'm starting to suspect a faulty fusible disconnect switch. Maybe the >> blades are not making proper contact with the line side terminals. >> >> For the client who is having regular/frequent fuses blowing I plan to >> replace the disconnect with a heavy-duty version or possibly get a 100A >> disconnect with fuse reducers. I'm not sure which option would yield a >> better test. I might also switch brands. >> >> Currently, we are using GE TG3222R. The fuses are Bussman FRN-R Time >> Delay. I have to believe a heavy-duty switch would be less susceptible to >> this, but maybe a higher rated one would be a better option. I'm not a fan >> of fuse reducers, however. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 5:54 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> The tripping breaker occurred at random times, even at night. No >>> weather-related correlation. >>> >>> I have more research to do to see when this fuse issue is happening, but >>> previous visits showed no water ingress. I'm not sure about temperature. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 8:51 PM Jay wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Jason >>>> >>>> One thought I have about the blowing fuse is to check it with a IR >>>> tool. >>>> >>>> I suspect a poor connection of the fuse to holder which during higher >>>> air temp is causing it to fail. >>>> I’m assuming that the correct amp size and slow blow fuse Is installed >>>> and that the wire connections are done correctly. But again an IR tool >>>> during peak heat would be a good test. >>>> >>>> About the enphase fix, wow what a head scratcher. But given that it’s >>>> fixed it means that it’s not a short, but enough amps going through over >>>> enough time to trip it. I wonder if a magnetic hydraulic vs thermal breaker >>>> ( CBI vs CH etc) would have worked? >>>> >>>> Is that breaker box ever in the sun? Is there any Correlation between >>>> high ambient temperatures and tripping? >>>> >>>> It sure would keep me up at night too >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> >>>> On Aug 27, 2020, at 4:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> So the resolution to this is in... But I still have no idea what was >>>> wrong. >>>> >>>> The string of 10 offending microinverters was split into 5 and 5. We >>>> had a spare breaker in the IQ Combiner so it was relatively easy to run >>>> another branch circuit. It has been over two months with no recurrence. So >>>> the issue seems to be resolved, but again, no idea why. >>>> >>>> So here we go again... On another system we have a similar problem now. >>>> In this case it is supply side interconnected with a fusible disconnect. >>>> The same fuse (same line) keeps blowing every few to several weeks. We >>>> can't find any home run wiring issues or issues with terminator caps. There >>>> are no apparent faults in the AC Combiner. We have no idea why this is >>>> happening. But in this system, just the fuse blows, not one of the >>>> individual branch circuit breakers. >>>> >>>> This is getting very frustrating. And this is way more serious because >>>> fuses and service calls are expensive and I can't isolate the issue to one >>>> branch circuit. I don't even know where to start. Leaving each circuit >>>> disconnected for several weeks to prove a negative is an untenable >>>> suggestion to make to a client. But I don't see any other good options. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 3:42 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Yes, we double-checked that. I have seen that happen before and it's >>>>> one of my early diagnostic steps for something like this. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:18 AM Mac Lewis wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Jason, >>>>>> >>>>>> Are you certain that the branch circuits aren't crisscrossed >>>>>> somewhere, meaning that an L1 branch 1, isn't connected to an L2 branch 2? >>>>>> That could explain two different breakers tripping. >>>>>> >>>>>> Good luck >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 1:07 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Undoubtedly, the termination caps are the second thing we check >>>>>>> after the rooftop junction box(es). These are prone to installation errors, >>>>>>> even when the right parts are used. And given the cost, I've thought very >>>>>>> long and hard about abandoning them altogether and terminating strings in >>>>>>> small j-boxes with watertight fittings. But in this case, there was no >>>>>>> evidence of improper installation (we replaced them) and it was not >>>>>>> correlated to rain events. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We are well equipped with bare Q-cable and field wireables that we >>>>>>> could use for troubleshooting to bypass certain sections, but the >>>>>>> intermittent nature of the problem and unpredictable timeframe between >>>>>>> faults is very frustrating. While this is a rare occurrence, it is >>>>>>> definitely a "con" to consider when comparing string vs. microinverters >>>>>>> that I had not strongly considered in the past. I'm intent on getting to >>>>>>> the bottom of this in order to learn what to look for in the future and how >>>>>>> to approach diagnoses of Enphase branch circuit faults. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 2:31 PM Amos Post < >>>>>>> integrityenergy101 at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was just at a site last week where the Enphase branch circuit >>>>>>>> breaker, outside utility disconnect breaker, and feed breaker in the main >>>>>>>> panel all tripped simultaneously, and it happened about 1 hour before I >>>>>>>> showed up onsite. The customer said it had happened 1 other time last fall >>>>>>>> but that time it was just the 1 branch circuit in the Enphase combiner >>>>>>>> panel. Interestingly the customer mentioned that he had just washed off >>>>>>>> the panels, also about 1 hour before I got there. I went on the roof and >>>>>>>> found that the installing contractor had not put on the Enphase termination >>>>>>>> caps. 1 string was wire-nutted with regular wire nuts and sitting on the >>>>>>>> roof, and the roof was damp right there. This was a fairly flat roof. The >>>>>>>> other micro trunk cable was just cut with no protection at all, tied to the >>>>>>>> rail… >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Amos Post >>>>>>>> Integrity Energy >>>>>>>> W 802.763.7023 >>>>>>>> C 802.291.2188 >>>>>>>> ienergyVT.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Facebook >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 2:05 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The breaker in the main panel IS tripping simultaneously with one >>>>>>>> of the branch circuit breakers each time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 12:43 PM Jay wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A question that keeps nagging me is why do these breakers trip and >>>>>>>>> not the breaker in the main panel? >>>>>>>>> Presuming there is a 40 amp in the main >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would have thought that given all the times the breakers have >>>>>>>>> tripped at some point that one would have tripped and I can’t understand >>>>>>>>> why not? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jerry Shafer >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>> Wrenches >>>>>>>>> Looking g at the bigger breaker tripping at the same time is very >>>>>>>>> likely do to response time of the breaker nothing more. As l suggested in a >>>>>>>>> previous message. Use a non bridged breaker to see if it is one or both >>>>>>>>> legs that trip. Also an eguage will help to see what if anything leads up >>>>>>>>> to the failure and when. >>>>>>>>> Jerry >>>>>>>>> Jerry >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 7:58 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I wonder about that. Of course, it could be the "inverter output >>>>>>>>>> circuit" having a fault in the wiring still (an intermittent issue >>>>>>>>>> somewhere within the IQ cable or home run wiring). But internal to the >>>>>>>>>> microinverter, is it possible that a fault could still occur at night? I >>>>>>>>>> had a suggestion from another wrench that there are film capacitors on the >>>>>>>>>> AC output side, but are these isolated when there is no DC input? It seems >>>>>>>>>> unlikely that this would be an issue, but I have seen microinverters >>>>>>>>>> reporting a couple of watts at night (in Enlighten). I'm not sure how real >>>>>>>>>> that is. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The overriding question I have is what kind of fault would cause >>>>>>>>>> BOTH a branch circuit and the main solar breaker to trip simultaneously? >>>>>>>>>> That seems odd to me. If any normal load branch circuit has a fault, you >>>>>>>>>> don't often see premises main breakers tripping, or even feeder circuit >>>>>>>>>> breakers. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I got to thinking that maybe there is some kind of issue between >>>>>>>>>> the BR220 and CH240 breakers not playing nicely together. But I would think >>>>>>>>>> this would be a well-known issue because I'm sure there are tons of CH >>>>>>>>>> feeder breakers in the wild with BR branch circuits downstream. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 9:25 AM < >>>>>>>>>> drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If it trips at night, we know it is not the output from the >>>>>>>>>>> inverters causing the tripping. The current must be coming from the grid. >>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 2020-06-01 12:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It's not weather. It's at all times of the day and night, and I >>>>>>>>>>> confirmed that there is no correlation to rain or high winds. That was my >>>>>>>>>>> first suspicion. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:27 AM Ray wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Is it at all weather related? Rain, or high humidity? High >>>>>>>>>>> temperatures? Do you have any indication what time of day it trips off at? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch >>>>>>>>>>> circuit breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this >>>>>>>>>>> time. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which >>>>>>>>>>> breaker they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two >>>>>>>>>>> weeks and then trip again. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole >>>>>>>>>>> system apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel >>>>>>>>>>> that I need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive >>>>>>>>>>> proposition. I really don't know what else to do at this point. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>>>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised >>>>>>>>>>> (we will see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I >>>>>>>>>>> doubt I have two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the >>>>>>>>>>> combined breaker. I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were >>>>>>>>>>> tripping simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I >>>>>>>>>>> have never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have >>>>>>>>>>> seen many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I >>>>>>>>>>> would be replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue >>>>>>>>>>> whatsoever. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size >>>>>>>>>>> and max string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the >>>>>>>>>>> string's associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped >>>>>>>>>>> again. We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the >>>>>>>>>>> breaker was less than perfect from the start as we've add equally nice days >>>>>>>>>>> since. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 >>>>>>>>>>> watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra >>>>>>>>>>> careful going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max >>>>>>>>>>> published... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> My story. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Scot >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>>>>>>>>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with >>>>>>>>>>> and Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 >>>>>>>>>>> microinverters each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit >>>>>>>>>>> breakers and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have >>>>>>>>>>> been tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last >>>>>>>>>>> 6 months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >>>>>>>>>>> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, >>>>>>>>>>> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a >>>>>>>>>>> different branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped >>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously. We checked that branch circuit and could not find any >>>>>>>>>>> fault. It seems unlikely that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, >>>>>>>>>>> so we have now switched out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the >>>>>>>>>>> culprit. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my >>>>>>>>>>> fingers crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on >>>>>>>>>>> another diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. >>>>>>>>>>> One thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a >>>>>>>>>>> fusible disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two >>>>>>>>>>> line fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on >>>>>>>>>>> if there is in fact a fault. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with >>>>>>>>>>> Enphase systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One >>>>>>>>>>> turned out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and >>>>>>>>>>> landed on different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an >>>>>>>>>>> internal fault which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and >>>>>>>>>>> smoke billowing out of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker >>>>>>>>>>> multiple times. This case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm >>>>>>>>>>> perplexed. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Nov 18 17:14:06 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 17:14:06 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle In-Reply-To: References: <175dc425b19.fb3052831170564.9190248760912045866@sol-ark.com> Message-ID: As someone who is struggling with a generator auto-start issue with a competing product at the moment, I will second the motion to develop a well-functioning logic for AGS. I have been disappointed with the logic on some and confusing interface on others. I have not had the opportunity to try out Sol-Ark yet, but conceptually I'm on board. But an integrated and functional AGS system is a must. I recently resorted to using the BMS of a LiPO battery to trigger generator start because I could not get the inverter system to work well. I wasn't willing to risk a $50k battery on the inverter's logic and functionality so I put it all on the battery manufacturer to deal with it. That's not ideal by any stretch. Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 5:03 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote: > Hi Dustin, > > I appreciate you checking in on this. I have to admit, after realizing the > limited generator capabilities of the Sol-Ark, I was put off. I spoke with > one of your support technicians who literally said “ I mean, we could have > our engineers create programming to exercise generators, it’s just a matter > of us spending the money to do so. It’s not a common ask and I doubt we > will do it”. > > For fully off-grid clients, generator health is immeasurably important. > The generator is often the last line of defense from a total system shut > down. I’m hopeful that Sol-Ark will join the other leading off-grid > manufacturers in the industry and incorporate a comprehensive generator > function. > > Other than crucial AGS shortcomings, I really do love the Sol-Ark unit as > well as your tech support. I am thankful that you have been so willing to > accommodate change. > > Kindly, > > Chris > > On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 11:49 AM Dustin Douglas > wrote: > >> Hi Chris, >> >> I am not sure if I addressed this with the previous string but I did want >> to mention that we are looking add different features for the generators. >> One of these is adding the ability to exercise the generators, especially >> with ones that have the feature disable if the two-wire start is used. We >> are always trying to make it more effective for customers and installers >> and this is a feature we have been wanting to add for the generator >> applications. >> >> >> Thank you and have a blessed day, >> >> Dustin Douglas >> >> Sol Ark Engineering Support >> >> (972) 575-8875 x 108 >> www.sol-ark.com >> >> >> >> >> ---- On Wed, 11 Nov 2020 10:07:24 -0600 *Chris Sparadeo >> >* wrote ---- >> >> Hi all, >> >> According to Sol-Ark tech support, they do not currently have a >> programmable exercise cycle for >> its two-wire start function. When paired with a generator like a Generac >> Ecogen (exercise cycle is automatically disabled when configured with two >> wire start) this means that the only way to effectively run an exercise >> cycle on your generator would be to do it manually. I am wondering if >> anyone has run into this issue and if there are work arounds? Kind of a >> bummer and my first and only negative experience with Sol-Ark thus far. >> >> Kindly, >> >> Chris Sparadeo >> -- >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> >> C_802-369-4458 >> H_802-728-3059 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Nov 18 20:13:38 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 20:13:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: <51E3F257-8E76-467E-830B-D344A7545F47@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55ee31be-37ba-5a8e-4f3c-037b06605c9b@solarray.com> What is the brand and model of the disconnect? Temp ratings of the terminals?  I've definitely had fuse holders not make good contact with the fuses and burn the fuses at one end, instead of in the middle.  Have you looked at it with a Thermal imaging camera when its operating to see if its hot on one end of the fuse? Second, depending on the temperature it would be hitting inside the enclosure in the sun, you could be exceeding the rating of the #6 conductor.  Assuming terminals rated at 75C, then from 310.16, a #6 is rated 65 A, but derate for temperature of 114F inside the enclosure gets you to .82 x 65 = 53.3, which is a bit less than the 54.45 that Dave just calculated for continuous duty. What color is the disconnect painted?  any chance of painting it white? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/18/20 4:16 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Jason, > Bright sunny days, disconnect on the west side of house, maybe in the > sun? 43.56A * 1.25 for continuous duty = 54.45A. If these disconnects > are also baking in the sun, maybe the extra ambient heat is enough to > push it over the edge? Just a thought. > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. _607.277.1118 x121_  f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar •Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > > On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 3:41 PM Jay > wrote: > > Hi Jason > > Any chance for some photos? > > Jay > >> On Nov 18, 2020, at 12:18 PM, Jason Szumlanski >> > > wrote: >> >>  >> The plot thickens on the fuse blowing issue. Again, we tore the >> Enphase IQ system apart looking for any reason for the fuse to >> keep blowing. We reconfirmed torque on all line side >> conductors to the service (supply side interconnection using >> Polaris taps). >> >> Low and behold, I get a second client with the exact same issue >> yesterday. The circumstances are eerily alike. Both disconnects >> are located on the west side of the house and have 36 IQ7+ >> microinverters on an IQ Combiner, requiring 60A fuses on the 60A >> fusible disconnect. The combined inverter output rating is >> 43.56A. The interconnections are identical with #6 THHN 90ºC >> conductors and Polaris taps. Both disconnects have conductors on >> the right-hand side line-side terminal that are discolored (the >> copper is silvery, the insulation is not burned). The fuses blow >> at peak current around 1:30 pm, only on bright and sunny days. >> >> I'm starting to suspect a faulty fusible disconnect switch. Maybe >> the blades are not making proper contact with the line side >> terminals. >> >> For the client who is having regular/frequent fuses blowing I >> plan to replace the disconnect with a heavy-duty version or >> possibly get a 100A disconnect with fuse reducers. I'm not sure >> which option would yield a better test. I might also switch brands. >> >> Currently, we are using GE TG3222R. The fuses are Bussman FRN-R >> Time Delay. I have to believe a heavy-duty switch would be less >> susceptible to this, but maybe a higher rated one would be a >> better option. I'm not a fan of fuse reducers, however. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 5:54 PM Jason Szumlanski >> > > wrote: >> >> The tripping breaker occurred at random times, even at night. >> No weather-related correlation. >> >> I have more research to do to see when this fuse issue is >> happening, but previous visits showed no water ingress. I'm >> not sure about temperature. >> >> * >> >> * >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 8:51 PM Jay > > wrote: >> >> Hi Jason >> >> One thought I have about the blowing fuse is to check it >> with a IR tool. >> >> I suspect a poor connection of the fuse to holder which >> during higher air temp is causing it to fail. >> I’m assuming that the correct amp size and slow blow fuse >> Is installed and that the wire connections are done >> correctly. But again an IR tool during peak heat would be >>  a good test. >> >> About the enphase fix, wow what a head scratcher. But >> given that it’s fixed it means that it’s not a short, but >> enough amps going through over enough time to trip it. I >> wonder if a magnetic hydraulic vs thermal breaker ( CBI >>  vs CH etc) would have worked? >> >> Is that breaker box ever in the sun?  Is there any >> Correlation between  high ambient temperatures and tripping? >> >> It sure would keep me up at night too >> >> Jay >> >> >>> On Aug 27, 2020, at 4:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>>  >>> So the resolution to this is in... But I still have no >>> idea what was wrong. >>> >>> The string of 10 offending microinverters was split into >>> 5 and 5. We had a spare breaker in the IQ Combiner so it >>> was relatively easy to run another branch circuit. It >>> has been over two months with no recurrence. So the >>> issue seems to be resolved, but again, no idea why. >>> >>> So here we go again... On another system we have a >>> similar problem now. In this case it is supply side >>> interconnected with a fusible disconnect. The same fuse >>> (same line) keeps blowing every few to several weeks. We >>> can't find any home run wiring issues or issues with >>> terminator caps. There are no apparent faults in the AC >>> Combiner. We have no idea why this is happening. But in >>> this system, just the fuse blows, not one of the >>> individual branch circuit breakers. >>> >>> This is getting very frustrating. And this is way more >>> serious because fuses and service calls are expensive >>> and I can't isolate the issue to one branch circuit. I >>> don't even know where to start. Leaving each circuit >>> disconnected for several weeks to prove a negative is an >>> untenable suggestion to make to a client. But I don't >>> see any other good options. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 3:42 PM Jason Szumlanski >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> Yes, we double-checked that. I have seen that happen >>> before and it's one of my early diagnostic steps for >>> something like this. >>> >>> * >>> >>> * >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:18 AM Mac Lewis >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Jason, >>> >>> Are you certain that the branch circuits aren't >>> crisscrossed somewhere, meaning that an L1 >>> branch 1, isn't connected to an L2 branch 2? >>> That could explain two different breakers tripping. >>> >>> Good luck >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 1:07 PM Jason Szumlanski >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> Undoubtedly, the termination caps are the >>> second thing we check after the rooftop >>> junction box(es). These are prone to >>> installation errors, even when the right >>> parts are used. And given the cost, I've >>> thought very long and hard about abandoning >>> them altogether and terminating strings in >>> small j-boxes with watertight fittings. But >>> in this case, there was no evidence of >>> improper installation (we replaced them) and >>> it was not correlated to rain events. >>> >>> We are well equipped with bare Q-cable and >>> field wireables that we could use for >>> troubleshooting to bypass certain sections, >>> but the intermittent nature of the problem >>> and unpredictable timeframe between faults >>> is very frustrating. While this is a >>> rare occurrence, it is definitely a "con" to >>> consider when comparing string vs. >>> microinverters that I had not strongly >>> considered in the past. I'm intent on >>> getting to the bottom of this in order to >>> learn what to look for in the future and how >>> to approach diagnoses of Enphase >>> branch circuit faults. >>> >>> Jason >>> >>> >>> * >>> >>> * >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 2:31 PM Amos Post >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> I was just at a site last week where the >>> Enphase branch circuit breaker, outside >>> utility disconnect breaker, and feed >>> breaker in the main panel all tripped >>> simultaneously, and it happened about 1 >>> hour before I showed up onsite.  The >>> customer said it had happened 1 other >>> time last fall but that time it was just >>> the 1 branch circuit in the Enphase >>> combiner panel. Interestingly the >>> customer mentioned that he had just >>> washed off the panels, also about 1 hour >>> before I got there.  I went on the roof >>> and found that the installing contractor >>> had not put on the Enphase termination >>> caps.  1 string was wire-nutted with >>> regular wire nuts and sitting on the >>> roof, and the roof was damp right there. >>> This was a fairly flat roof.  The other >>> micro trunk cable was just cut with no >>> protection at all, tied to the rail… >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>      Amos Post >>> Integrity Energy >>> W 802.763.7023 >>>  C 802.291.2188 >>> ienergyVT.com >>> >>> >>> Facebook >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 2:05 PM, Jason >>>> Szumlanski >>>> >>> > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> The breaker in the main panel IS >>>> tripping simultaneously with one of the >>>> branch circuit breakers each time. >>>> * >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> * >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 12:43 PM Jay >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> A question that keeps nagging me is >>>> why do these breakers trip and not >>>> the breaker in the main panel? >>>> Presuming there is a 40 amp in the main >>>> >>>> I would have thought that given all >>>> the times the breakers have tripped >>>> at some point that one would have >>>> tripped and I can’t understand why >>>> not? >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jerry >>>>> Shafer >>>> > >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> Wrenches >>>>> Looking g at the bigger breaker >>>>> tripping at the same time is very >>>>> likely do to response time of the >>>>> breaker nothing more. As l >>>>> suggested in a previous message. >>>>> Use a non bridged breaker to see >>>>> if it is one or both legs that >>>>> trip. Also an eguage will help to >>>>> see what if anything leads up to >>>>> the failure and when. >>>>> Jerry >>>>> Jerry >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 7:58 AM Jason >>>>> Szumlanski >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I wonder about that. Of >>>>> course, it could be the >>>>> "inverter output circuit" >>>>> having a fault in the wiring >>>>> still (an intermittent issue >>>>> somewhere within the IQ cable >>>>> or home run wiring). But >>>>> internal to the microinverter, >>>>> is it possible that a fault >>>>> could still occur at night? I >>>>> had a suggestion from another >>>>> wrench that there are film >>>>> capacitors on the AC output >>>>> side, but are these isolated >>>>> when there is no DC input? It >>>>> seems unlikely that this would >>>>> be an issue, but I have seen >>>>> microinverters reporting a >>>>> couple of watts at night (in >>>>> Enlighten). I'm not sure how >>>>> real that is. >>>>> >>>>> The overriding question I have >>>>> is what kind of fault would >>>>> cause BOTH a branch circuit >>>>> and the main solar breaker to >>>>> trip simultaneously? That >>>>> seems odd to me. If any normal >>>>> load branch circuit has a >>>>> fault, you don't often see >>>>> premises main breakers >>>>> tripping, or even feeder >>>>> circuit breakers. >>>>> >>>>> I got to thinking that maybe >>>>> there is some kind of issue >>>>> between the BR220 and CH240 >>>>> breakers not playing nicely >>>>> together. But I would think >>>>> this would be a well-known >>>>> issue because I'm sure there >>>>> are tons of CH feeder breakers >>>>> in the wild with BR branch >>>>> circuits downstream. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 9:25 AM >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> If it trips at night, we >>>>> know it is not the output >>>>> from the inverters causing >>>>> the tripping. The current >>>>> must be coming from the grid. >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 2020-06-01 12:05, Jason >>>>> Szumlanski wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> It's not weather. It's at >>>>>> all times of the day and >>>>>> night, and I confirmed >>>>>> that there is no >>>>>> correlation to rain or >>>>>> high winds. That was my >>>>>> first suspicion. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at >>>>>> 10:27 AM Ray >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Is it at all weather >>>>>> related? Rain, or >>>>>> high humidity? High >>>>>> temperatures? Do you >>>>>> have any indication >>>>>> what time of day it >>>>>> trips off at? >>>>>> >>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>> >>>>>> On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>> Well, that didn't >>>>>>> resolve it. The main >>>>>>> breaker and a branch >>>>>>> circuit breaker >>>>>>> tripped again a few >>>>>>> days ago. It was the >>>>>>> same branch this time. >>>>>>> As my next >>>>>>> diagnostic step I >>>>>>> swapped two circuits >>>>>>> (on which breaker >>>>>>> they are landed). If >>>>>>> history is a guide, >>>>>>> it will work for >>>>>>> about two weeks and >>>>>>> then trip again. >>>>>>> I'm dumbfounded. I >>>>>>> really don't want to >>>>>>> have to tear this >>>>>>> whole system apart. >>>>>>> At this point, if I >>>>>>> have to remove all >>>>>>> the modules, I feel >>>>>>> that I need to >>>>>>> replace all of the >>>>>>> trunk cable which is >>>>>>> an expensive >>>>>>> proposition. I >>>>>>> really don't know >>>>>>> what else to do at >>>>>>> this point. >>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, May 25, >>>>>>> 2020, 10:43 AM Jason >>>>>>> Szumlanski >>>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I strongly >>>>>>> suspect the >>>>>>> CH240 combined >>>>>>> breaker was >>>>>>> compromised (we >>>>>>> will see). Since >>>>>>> it happened that >>>>>>> two different >>>>>>> strings tripped, >>>>>>> I doubt I have >>>>>>> two >>>>>>> microinverters >>>>>>> with internal >>>>>>> faults. It has >>>>>>> to be the >>>>>>> combined >>>>>>> breaker. I was >>>>>>> just surprised >>>>>>> that branch >>>>>>> circuit breakers >>>>>>> were tripping >>>>>>> simultaneously with >>>>>>> the combined >>>>>>> output breaker. >>>>>>> Of all the >>>>>>> supply side >>>>>>> connected >>>>>>> systems I have >>>>>>> installed, I >>>>>>> have never seen >>>>>>> a combined >>>>>>> output fusible >>>>>>> disconnect fuse >>>>>>> blow, but I have >>>>>>> seen many >>>>>>> combined output >>>>>>> breakers >>>>>>> tripped. I was >>>>>>> worried early on >>>>>>> that I would be >>>>>>> replacing fuses >>>>>>> constantly, but >>>>>>> that has not >>>>>>> been an issue >>>>>>> whatsoever. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, May 21, >>>>>>> 2020 at 11:15 AM >>>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Actually, we >>>>>>> had a IQ7 >>>>>>> string >>>>>>> loaded up to >>>>>>> its max >>>>>>> panel size >>>>>>> and max >>>>>>> string >>>>>>> length and >>>>>>> in the >>>>>>> spring on >>>>>>> cool, clear >>>>>>> day, it >>>>>>> tripped the >>>>>>> string's >>>>>>> associated >>>>>>> breaker in >>>>>>> the Enphase >>>>>>> combiner. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We reset but >>>>>>> of course >>>>>>> that breaker >>>>>>> was impaired >>>>>>> and it >>>>>>> tripped >>>>>>> again. We >>>>>>> replaced and >>>>>>> never had an >>>>>>> issue going >>>>>>> forward. We >>>>>>> suspect the >>>>>>> breaker was >>>>>>> less than >>>>>>> perfect from >>>>>>> the start as >>>>>>> we've add >>>>>>> equally nice >>>>>>> days since. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This almost >>>>>>> reminds me >>>>>>> of loading >>>>>>> up Outback >>>>>>> FM80. It >>>>>>> says 4,000 >>>>>>> watts but in >>>>>>> reality, >>>>>>> 3,600 is the >>>>>>> max when >>>>>>> amps spike. >>>>>>> I will be >>>>>>> extra >>>>>>> careful >>>>>>> going >>>>>>> forward on >>>>>>> IQ7 string >>>>>>> length when >>>>>>> going to the >>>>>>> max published... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My story. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Scot >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>>>>>> >>>>>> >*On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> Of*Jason >>>>>>> Szumlanski >>>>>>> *Sent:*Thursday, >>>>>>> May 21, 2020 >>>>>>> 8:57 AM >>>>>>> *To:*RE-wrenches >>>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>>> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] >>>>>>> Enphase >>>>>>> intermittent >>>>>>> breaker trippjng >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm trying >>>>>>> to resolve >>>>>>> an >>>>>>> intermittent >>>>>>> frustrating >>>>>>> problem with >>>>>>> and Enphase >>>>>>> IQ system. >>>>>>> There are >>>>>>> three AC >>>>>>> Branch >>>>>>> circuits of >>>>>>> 9 >>>>>>> microinverters >>>>>>> each coming >>>>>>> into an >>>>>>> Enphase AC >>>>>>> combiner. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What has >>>>>>> been >>>>>>> happening is >>>>>>> one of the >>>>>>> BR220 branch >>>>>>> circuit >>>>>>> breakers and >>>>>>> the combine >>>>>>> CH240 >>>>>>> breaker in >>>>>>> the main >>>>>>> backfed load >>>>>>> center have >>>>>>> been >>>>>>> tripping >>>>>>> simultaneously. >>>>>>> It has >>>>>>> happened >>>>>>> about four >>>>>>> times in the >>>>>>> last 6 >>>>>>> months. It >>>>>>> was always >>>>>>> the same >>>>>>> branch >>>>>>> circuit >>>>>>> breaker, so >>>>>>> we kept >>>>>>> investigating >>>>>>> that string, >>>>>>> checking the >>>>>>> junction >>>>>>> box, trunk >>>>>>> cable, and >>>>>>> cap, etc. >>>>>>> Finally we >>>>>>> swapped out >>>>>>> the BR220 >>>>>>> breaker. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Fast forward >>>>>>> 4 weeks, and >>>>>>> we got >>>>>>> another >>>>>>> call. This >>>>>>> time a >>>>>>> different >>>>>>> branch >>>>>>> circuit >>>>>>> breaker and >>>>>>> the main >>>>>>> breaker >>>>>>> tripped >>>>>>> simultaneously. >>>>>>> We checked >>>>>>> that branch >>>>>>> circuit and >>>>>>> could not >>>>>>> find any >>>>>>> fault. It >>>>>>> seems >>>>>>> unlikely >>>>>>> that two >>>>>>> branch >>>>>>> circuit >>>>>>> breakers >>>>>>> would be >>>>>>> faulty, so >>>>>>> we have now >>>>>>> switched out >>>>>>> the CH240 >>>>>>> main breaker >>>>>>> in hopes >>>>>>> that it is >>>>>>> the culprit. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm not >>>>>>> totally >>>>>>> confident in >>>>>>> this >>>>>>> resolution >>>>>>> and I have >>>>>>> my fingers >>>>>>> crossed. If >>>>>>> that doesn't >>>>>>> work, does >>>>>>> anyone have >>>>>>> any >>>>>>> suggestions >>>>>>> on another >>>>>>> diagnostic >>>>>>> step? These >>>>>>> intermittent >>>>>>> problems are >>>>>>> a major >>>>>>> hassle. One >>>>>>> thought I >>>>>>> had was to >>>>>>> switch to a >>>>>>> supply side >>>>>>> interconnection >>>>>>> with a >>>>>>> fusible >>>>>>> disconnect. >>>>>>> Maybe the >>>>>>> intermittent >>>>>>> fault would >>>>>>> blow one of >>>>>>> the two line >>>>>>> fuses so at >>>>>>> least I >>>>>>> could narrow >>>>>>> it down to >>>>>>> which line >>>>>>> the fault is >>>>>>> on if there >>>>>>> is in fact a >>>>>>> fault. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have >>>>>>> experienced >>>>>>> two other >>>>>>> tripping >>>>>>> breaker >>>>>>> issues with >>>>>>> Enphase >>>>>>> systems in >>>>>>> the past. >>>>>>> Neither of >>>>>>> them were >>>>>>> systems I >>>>>>> installed. >>>>>>> One turned >>>>>>> out to be >>>>>>> branch >>>>>>> circuits >>>>>>> that were >>>>>>> not properly >>>>>>> paired up >>>>>>> and landed >>>>>>> on different >>>>>>> breakers. >>>>>>> Another time >>>>>>> we had an >>>>>>> inverter >>>>>>> with an >>>>>>> internal >>>>>>> fault which >>>>>>> eventually"blew >>>>>>> up" with a >>>>>>> loud popping >>>>>>> noise and >>>>>>> smoke >>>>>>> billowing >>>>>>> out of it. >>>>>>> That >>>>>>> happened >>>>>>> after >>>>>>> resetting a >>>>>>> trip breaker >>>>>>> multiple >>>>>>> times. This >>>>>>> case seems >>>>>>> to be >>>>>>> unrelated to >>>>>>> those >>>>>>> issues. I'm >>>>>>> perplexed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Florida >>>>>>> Solar Design >>>>>>> Group >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Nov 19 09:18:05 2020 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 06:18:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: <55ee31be-37ba-5a8e-4f3c-037b06605c9b@solarray.com> References: <51E3F257-8E76-467E-830B-D344A7545F47@gmail.com> <55ee31be-37ba-5a8e-4f3c-037b06605c9b@solarray.com> Message-ID: <24125d34-d02c-e531-892c-05bca6715308@psln.com>             This is a very timely discussion for us also as we have many Midnight MNPV6 discos in the sun.  Though we're careful about tightening wire landings, using contact cleaner for the fuses and fuse holders, some installs seem to get hotter than others.  We just started making a very simple sheet metal heat shield of sorts spaced away from the face of the disco for ventilation which keeps direct sun off the "face" of the disco. We don't paint this shield to give the galvanized surface a chance to reflect the IR.             Its a retro which we've covered the cost for to prevent callbacks for blown (cooked?) fuses. I haven't done any before and after temp checks but I know from a long history of this kind of work that temps inside that disco will be substantially lower. They haven't been out in the field long enough to get any data. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 11/18/2020 5:13 PM, Ray wrote: > > What is the brand and model of the disconnect? Temp ratings of the > terminals?  I've definitely had fuse holders not make good contact > with the fuses and burn the fuses at one end, instead of in the > middle.  Have you looked at it with a Thermal imaging camera when its > operating to see if its hot on one end of the fuse? > > Second, depending on the temperature it would be hitting inside the > enclosure in the sun, you could be exceeding the rating of the #6 > conductor.  Assuming terminals rated at 75C, then from 310.16, a #6 is > rated 65 A, but derate for temperature of 114F inside the enclosure > gets you to .82 x 65 = 53.3, which is a bit less than the 54.45 that > Dave just calculated for continuous duty. > > What color is the disconnect painted?  any chance of painting it white? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 11/18/20 4:16 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> Jason, >> Bright sunny days, disconnect on the west side of house, maybe in the >> sun? 43.56A * 1.25 for continuous duty = 54.45A. If these disconnects >> are also baking in the sun, maybe the extra ambient heat is enough to >> push it over the edge? Just a thought. >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> o. _607.277.1118 x121_  f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com >> -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Nov 19 08:48:01 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 08:48:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: <55ee31be-37ba-5a8e-4f3c-037b06605c9b@solarray.com> References: <51E3F257-8E76-467E-830B-D344A7545F47@gmail.com> <55ee31be-37ba-5a8e-4f3c-037b06605c9b@solarray.com> Message-ID: All good info. I plan to take my FLIR One out next time. I can paint it white in both cases I suppose. As for the temps, the high ambient here is 93ºF per ASHRAE. Inside attics, we can see temps exceeding 140ºF here. We don't derate conductors for that. I'm not sure where 114ºF comes from, but I get the point. The interior of the enclosure can certainly get blazing hot. This definitely seems to be a heat-related issue whether the NEC intent has been met or not. Upping the tap conductors to #4 or larger would not be difficult or expensive to accomplish. I will likely make that our new standard for 50A and 60A calculated circuits for supply-side interconnections made outdoors. Jason On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 8:13 PM Ray wrote: > What is the brand and model of the disconnect? Temp ratings of the > terminals? I've definitely had fuse holders not make good contact with the > fuses and burn the fuses at one end, instead of in the middle. Have you > looked at it with a Thermal imaging camera when its operating to see if its > hot on one end of the fuse? > > Second, depending on the temperature it would be hitting inside the > enclosure in the sun, you could be exceeding the rating of the #6 > conductor. Assuming terminals rated at 75C, then from 310.16, a #6 is > rated 65 A, but derate for temperature of 114F inside the enclosure gets > you to .82 x 65 = 53.3, which is a bit less than the 54.45 that Dave just > calculated for continuous duty. > > What color is the disconnect painted? any chance of painting it white? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 11/18/20 4:16 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Jason, > Bright sunny days, disconnect on the west side of house, maybe in the sun? > 43.56A * 1.25 for continuous duty = 54.45A. If these disconnects are also > baking in the sun, maybe the extra ambient heat is enough to push it over > the edge? Just a thought. > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > > On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 3:41 PM Jay wrote: > >> Hi Jason >> >> Any chance for some photos? >> >> Jay >> >> On Nov 18, 2020, at 12:18 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>  >> The plot thickens on the fuse blowing issue. Again, we tore the Enphase >> IQ system apart looking for any reason for the fuse to keep blowing. We >> reconfirmed torque on all line side conductors to the service (supply side >> interconnection using Polaris taps). >> >> Low and behold, I get a second client with the exact same issue >> yesterday. The circumstances are eerily alike. Both disconnects are located >> on the west side of the house and have 36 IQ7+ microinverters on an IQ >> Combiner, requiring 60A fuses on the 60A fusible disconnect. The combined >> inverter output rating is 43.56A. The interconnections are identical with >> #6 THHN 90ºC conductors and Polaris taps. Both disconnects have conductors >> on the right-hand side line-side terminal that are discolored (the copper >> is silvery, the insulation is not burned). The fuses blow at peak current >> around 1:30 pm, only on bright and sunny days. >> >> I'm starting to suspect a faulty fusible disconnect switch. Maybe the >> blades are not making proper contact with the line side terminals. >> >> For the client who is having regular/frequent fuses blowing I plan to >> replace the disconnect with a heavy-duty version or possibly get a 100A >> disconnect with fuse reducers. I'm not sure which option would yield a >> better test. I might also switch brands. >> >> Currently, we are using GE TG3222R. The fuses are Bussman FRN-R Time >> Delay. I have to believe a heavy-duty switch would be less susceptible to >> this, but maybe a higher rated one would be a better option. I'm not a fan >> of fuse reducers, however. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 5:54 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> The tripping breaker occurred at random times, even at night. No >>> weather-related correlation. >>> >>> I have more research to do to see when this fuse issue is happening, but >>> previous visits showed no water ingress. I'm not sure about temperature. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 8:51 PM Jay wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Jason >>>> >>>> One thought I have about the blowing fuse is to check it with a IR >>>> tool. >>>> >>>> I suspect a poor connection of the fuse to holder which during higher >>>> air temp is causing it to fail. >>>> I’m assuming that the correct amp size and slow blow fuse Is installed >>>> and that the wire connections are done correctly. But again an IR tool >>>> during peak heat would be a good test. >>>> >>>> About the enphase fix, wow what a head scratcher. But given that it’s >>>> fixed it means that it’s not a short, but enough amps going through over >>>> enough time to trip it. I wonder if a magnetic hydraulic vs thermal breaker >>>> ( CBI vs CH etc) would have worked? >>>> >>>> Is that breaker box ever in the sun? Is there any Correlation between >>>> high ambient temperatures and tripping? >>>> >>>> It sure would keep me up at night too >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> >>>> On Aug 27, 2020, at 4:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> So the resolution to this is in... But I still have no idea what was >>>> wrong. >>>> >>>> The string of 10 offending microinverters was split into 5 and 5. We >>>> had a spare breaker in the IQ Combiner so it was relatively easy to run >>>> another branch circuit. It has been over two months with no recurrence. So >>>> the issue seems to be resolved, but again, no idea why. >>>> >>>> So here we go again... On another system we have a similar problem now. >>>> In this case it is supply side interconnected with a fusible disconnect. >>>> The same fuse (same line) keeps blowing every few to several weeks. We >>>> can't find any home run wiring issues or issues with terminator caps. There >>>> are no apparent faults in the AC Combiner. We have no idea why this is >>>> happening. But in this system, just the fuse blows, not one of the >>>> individual branch circuit breakers. >>>> >>>> This is getting very frustrating. And this is way more serious because >>>> fuses and service calls are expensive and I can't isolate the issue to one >>>> branch circuit. I don't even know where to start. Leaving each circuit >>>> disconnected for several weeks to prove a negative is an untenable >>>> suggestion to make to a client. But I don't see any other good options. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 3:42 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Yes, we double-checked that. I have seen that happen before and it's >>>>> one of my early diagnostic steps for something like this. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:18 AM Mac Lewis wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Jason, >>>>>> >>>>>> Are you certain that the branch circuits aren't crisscrossed >>>>>> somewhere, meaning that an L1 branch 1, isn't connected to an L2 branch 2? >>>>>> That could explain two different breakers tripping. >>>>>> >>>>>> Good luck >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 1:07 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Undoubtedly, the termination caps are the second thing we check >>>>>>> after the rooftop junction box(es). These are prone to installation errors, >>>>>>> even when the right parts are used. And given the cost, I've thought very >>>>>>> long and hard about abandoning them altogether and terminating strings in >>>>>>> small j-boxes with watertight fittings. But in this case, there was no >>>>>>> evidence of improper installation (we replaced them) and it was not >>>>>>> correlated to rain events. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We are well equipped with bare Q-cable and field wireables that we >>>>>>> could use for troubleshooting to bypass certain sections, but the >>>>>>> intermittent nature of the problem and unpredictable timeframe between >>>>>>> faults is very frustrating. While this is a rare occurrence, it is >>>>>>> definitely a "con" to consider when comparing string vs. microinverters >>>>>>> that I had not strongly considered in the past. I'm intent on getting to >>>>>>> the bottom of this in order to learn what to look for in the future and how >>>>>>> to approach diagnoses of Enphase branch circuit faults. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 2:31 PM Amos Post < >>>>>>> integrityenergy101 at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was just at a site last week where the Enphase branch circuit >>>>>>>> breaker, outside utility disconnect breaker, and feed breaker in the main >>>>>>>> panel all tripped simultaneously, and it happened about 1 hour before I >>>>>>>> showed up onsite. The customer said it had happened 1 other time last fall >>>>>>>> but that time it was just the 1 branch circuit in the Enphase combiner >>>>>>>> panel. Interestingly the customer mentioned that he had just washed off >>>>>>>> the panels, also about 1 hour before I got there. I went on the roof and >>>>>>>> found that the installing contractor had not put on the Enphase termination >>>>>>>> caps. 1 string was wire-nutted with regular wire nuts and sitting on the >>>>>>>> roof, and the roof was damp right there. This was a fairly flat roof. The >>>>>>>> other micro trunk cable was just cut with no protection at all, tied to the >>>>>>>> rail… >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Amos Post >>>>>>>> Integrity Energy >>>>>>>> W 802.763.7023 >>>>>>>> C 802.291.2188 >>>>>>>> ienergyVT.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Facebook >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 2:05 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The breaker in the main panel IS tripping simultaneously with one >>>>>>>> of the branch circuit breakers each time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 12:43 PM Jay wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A question that keeps nagging me is why do these breakers trip and >>>>>>>>> not the breaker in the main panel? >>>>>>>>> Presuming there is a 40 amp in the main >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would have thought that given all the times the breakers have >>>>>>>>> tripped at some point that one would have tripped and I can’t understand >>>>>>>>> why not? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jerry Shafer >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>> Wrenches >>>>>>>>> Looking g at the bigger breaker tripping at the same time is very >>>>>>>>> likely do to response time of the breaker nothing more. As l suggested in a >>>>>>>>> previous message. Use a non bridged breaker to see if it is one or both >>>>>>>>> legs that trip. Also an eguage will help to see what if anything leads up >>>>>>>>> to the failure and when. >>>>>>>>> Jerry >>>>>>>>> Jerry >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 7:58 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I wonder about that. Of course, it could be the "inverter output >>>>>>>>>> circuit" having a fault in the wiring still (an intermittent issue >>>>>>>>>> somewhere within the IQ cable or home run wiring). But internal to the >>>>>>>>>> microinverter, is it possible that a fault could still occur at night? I >>>>>>>>>> had a suggestion from another wrench that there are film capacitors on the >>>>>>>>>> AC output side, but are these isolated when there is no DC input? It seems >>>>>>>>>> unlikely that this would be an issue, but I have seen microinverters >>>>>>>>>> reporting a couple of watts at night (in Enlighten). I'm not sure how real >>>>>>>>>> that is. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The overriding question I have is what kind of fault would cause >>>>>>>>>> BOTH a branch circuit and the main solar breaker to trip simultaneously? >>>>>>>>>> That seems odd to me. If any normal load branch circuit has a fault, you >>>>>>>>>> don't often see premises main breakers tripping, or even feeder circuit >>>>>>>>>> breakers. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I got to thinking that maybe there is some kind of issue between >>>>>>>>>> the BR220 and CH240 breakers not playing nicely together. But I would think >>>>>>>>>> this would be a well-known issue because I'm sure there are tons of CH >>>>>>>>>> feeder breakers in the wild with BR branch circuits downstream. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 9:25 AM < >>>>>>>>>> drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If it trips at night, we know it is not the output from the >>>>>>>>>>> inverters causing the tripping. The current must be coming from the grid. >>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 2020-06-01 12:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It's not weather. It's at all times of the day and night, and I >>>>>>>>>>> confirmed that there is no correlation to rain or high winds. That was my >>>>>>>>>>> first suspicion. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:27 AM Ray wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Is it at all weather related? Rain, or high humidity? High >>>>>>>>>>> temperatures? Do you have any indication what time of day it trips off at? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch >>>>>>>>>>> circuit breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this >>>>>>>>>>> time. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which >>>>>>>>>>> breaker they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two >>>>>>>>>>> weeks and then trip again. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole >>>>>>>>>>> system apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel >>>>>>>>>>> that I need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive >>>>>>>>>>> proposition. I really don't know what else to do at this point. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>>>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised >>>>>>>>>>> (we will see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I >>>>>>>>>>> doubt I have two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the >>>>>>>>>>> combined breaker. I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were >>>>>>>>>>> tripping simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I >>>>>>>>>>> have never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have >>>>>>>>>>> seen many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I >>>>>>>>>>> would be replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue >>>>>>>>>>> whatsoever. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size >>>>>>>>>>> and max string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the >>>>>>>>>>> string's associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped >>>>>>>>>>> again. We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the >>>>>>>>>>> breaker was less than perfect from the start as we've add equally nice days >>>>>>>>>>> since. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 >>>>>>>>>>> watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra >>>>>>>>>>> careful going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max >>>>>>>>>>> published... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> My story. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Scot >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>>>>>>>>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with >>>>>>>>>>> and Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 >>>>>>>>>>> microinverters each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit >>>>>>>>>>> breakers and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have >>>>>>>>>>> been tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last >>>>>>>>>>> 6 months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >>>>>>>>>>> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, >>>>>>>>>>> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a >>>>>>>>>>> different branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped >>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously. We checked that branch circuit and could not find any >>>>>>>>>>> fault. It seems unlikely that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, >>>>>>>>>>> so we have now switched out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the >>>>>>>>>>> culprit. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my >>>>>>>>>>> fingers crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on >>>>>>>>>>> another diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. >>>>>>>>>>> One thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a >>>>>>>>>>> fusible disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two >>>>>>>>>>> line fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on >>>>>>>>>>> if there is in fact a fault. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with >>>>>>>>>>> Enphase systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One >>>>>>>>>>> turned out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and >>>>>>>>>>> landed on different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an >>>>>>>>>>> internal fault which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and >>>>>>>>>>> smoke billowing out of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker >>>>>>>>>>> multiple times. This case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm >>>>>>>>>>> perplexed. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Ken at commonwealthsolar.com Thu Nov 19 10:19:31 2020 From: Ken at commonwealthsolar.com (Ken Schaal) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 10:19:31 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: <24125d34-d02c-e531-892c-05bca6715308@psln.com> References: <51E3F257-8E76-467E-830B-D344A7545F47@gmail.com> <55ee31be-37ba-5a8e-4f3c-037b06605c9b@solarray.com> <24125d34-d02c-e531-892c-05bca6715308@psln.com> Message-ID: >From my experience with reflective roofs galvanized quickly ages becoming less reflective! White is best aluminum paint next. Ken Schaal CommonWealth Solar On Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 9:17 AM frenergy wrote: > This is a very timely discussion for us also as we have many > Midnight MNPV6 discos in the sun. Though we're careful about tightening > wire landings, using contact cleaner for the fuses and fuse holders, some > installs seem to get hotter than others. We just started making a very > simple sheet metal heat shield of sorts spaced away from the face of the > disco for ventilation which keeps direct sun off the "face" of the disco. > We don't paint this shield to give the galvanized surface a chance to > reflect the IR. > > Its a retro which we've covered the cost for to prevent > callbacks for blown (cooked?) fuses. I haven't done any before and after > temp checks but I know from a long history of this kind of work that temps > inside that disco will be substantially lower. They haven't been out in the > field long enough to get any data. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > On 11/18/2020 5:13 PM, Ray wrote: > > What is the brand and model of the disconnect? Temp ratings of the > terminals? I've definitely had fuse holders not make good contact with the > fuses and burn the fuses at one end, instead of in the middle. Have you > looked at it with a Thermal imaging camera when its operating to see if its > hot on one end of the fuse? > > Second, depending on the temperature it would be hitting inside the > enclosure in the sun, you could be exceeding the rating of the #6 > conductor. Assuming terminals rated at 75C, then from 310.16, a #6 is > rated 65 A, but derate for temperature of 114F inside the enclosure gets > you to .82 x 65 = 53.3, which is a bit less than the 54.45 that Dave just > calculated for continuous duty. > > What color is the disconnect painted? any chance of painting it white? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 11/18/20 4:16 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Jason, > Bright sunny days, disconnect on the west side of house, maybe in the sun? > 43.56A * 1.25 for continuous duty = 54.45A. If these disconnects are also > baking in the sun, maybe the extra ambient heat is enough to push it over > the edge? Just a thought. > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > <#m_8636614259925677905_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 13:26:17 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 11:26:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent fuse trippjng In-Reply-To: References: <51E3F257-8E76-467E-830B-D344A7545F47@gmail.com> <55ee31be-37ba-5a8e-4f3c-037b06605c9b@solarray.com> <24125d34-d02c-e531-892c-05bca6715308@psln.com> Message-ID: I looked up on the eaton site and found this information. Page 6, its a temperature derate curve, which I think is your problem. In short, at 160F, for a slow blow fuse it is derated 20%. At 176f its 25% derated. I couldn’t find any fuses that have a high temp rating. jay https://m.littelfuse.com/~/media/electrical/application-notes/powr-gard-technical-application-guide.pdf > On Nov 19, 2020, at 8:19 AM, Ken Schaal wrote: > > From my experience with reflective roofs galvanized quickly ages becoming less reflective! White is best aluminum paint next. > Ken Schaal > CommonWealth Solar > > On Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 9:17 AM frenergy > wrote: > This is a very timely discussion for us also as we have many Midnight MNPV6 discos in the sun. Though we're careful about tightening wire landings, using contact cleaner for the fuses and fuse holders, some installs seem to get hotter than others. We just started making a very simple sheet metal heat shield of sorts spaced away from the face of the disco for ventilation which keeps direct sun off the "face" of the disco. We don't paint this shield to give the galvanized surface a chance to reflect the IR. > > Its a retro which we've covered the cost for to prevent callbacks for blown (cooked?) fuses. I haven't done any before and after temp checks but I know from a long history of this kind of work that temps inside that disco will be substantially lower. They haven't been out in the field long enough to get any data. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > On 11/18/2020 5:13 PM, Ray wrote: >> What is the brand and model of the disconnect? Temp ratings of the terminals? I've definitely had fuse holders not make good contact with the fuses and burn the fuses at one end, instead of in the middle. Have you looked at it with a Thermal imaging camera when its operating to see if its hot on one end of the fuse? >> >> Second, depending on the temperature it would be hitting inside the enclosure in the sun, you could be exceeding the rating of the #6 conductor. Assuming terminals rated at 75C, then from 310.16, a #6 is rated 65 A, but derate for temperature of 114F inside the enclosure gets you to .82 x 65 = 53.3, which is a bit less than the 54.45 that Dave just calculated for continuous duty. >> >> What color is the disconnect painted? any chance of painting it white? >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 11/18/20 4:16 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >>> Jason, >>> Bright sunny days, disconnect on the west side of house, maybe in the sun? 43.56A * 1.25 for continuous duty = 54.45A. If these disconnects are also baking in the sun, maybe the extra ambient heat is enough to push it over the edge? Just a thought. >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> Dave Tedeyan, PE >>> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >>> >>> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 >>> www.taitem.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Thu Nov 19 13:27:07 2020 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 10:27:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Jason,I don't know if this has been suggested yet, when we have electrical equipment in exterior and damp locations we're a firm believer in putting no-ox or electrical grease on all electrical connections, coating fuse ends and contact points, disco conductor terminal points, CB wire lands, CBs on the buss, ground conductor to ground buss, etc. This has been saving me from a lot of grief when it comes to resistance and corrosion forming in connections, splices, contact locations. Probably leftover from early on learning that  coating and assembling battery lugs and cable ends with high temperature lithium grease works well to keep the oxygen off and stop oxidation. Chris Worcester chris at solarwindworks.com530-448-9692Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9. -------- Original message --------From: Jason Szumlanski Date: 11/19/20 7:15 AM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng All good info.I plan to take my FLIR One out next time. I can paint it white in both cases I suppose. As for the temps, the high ambient here is 93ºF per ASHRAE. Inside attics, we can see temps exceeding 140ºF here. We don't derate conductors for that. I'm not sure where 114ºF comes from, but I get the point. The interior of the enclosure can certainly get blazing hot. This definitely seems to be a heat-related issue whether the NEC intent has been met or not. Upping the tap conductors to #4 or larger would not be difficult or expensive to accomplish. I will likely make that our new standard for 50A and 60A calculated circuits for supply-side interconnections made outdoors.JasonOn Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 8:13 PM Ray wrote: What is the brand and model of the disconnect? Temp ratings of the terminals?  I've definitely had fuse holders not make good contact with the fuses and burn the fuses at one end, instead of in the middle.  Have you looked at it with a Thermal imaging camera when its operating to see if its hot on one end of the fuse?  Second, depending on the temperature it would be hitting inside the enclosure in the sun, you could be exceeding the rating of the #6 conductor.  Assuming terminals rated at 75C, then from 310.16, a #6 is rated 65 A, but derate for temperature of 114F inside the enclosure gets you to .82 x 65 = 53.3, which is a bit less than the 54.45 that Dave just calculated for continuous duty.  What color is the disconnect painted?  any chance of painting it white? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/18/20 4:16 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Jason,  Bright sunny days, disconnect on the west side of house, maybe in the sun? 43.56A * 1.25 for continuous duty = 54.45A. If these disconnects are also baking in the sun, maybe the extra ambient heat is enough to push it over the edge? Just a thought. Cheers, Dave Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121  f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 3:41 PM Jay wrote: Hi Jason Any chance for some photos? Jay On Nov 18, 2020, at 12:18 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:  The plot thickens on the fuse blowing issue. Again, we tore the Enphase IQ system apart looking for any reason for the fuse to keep blowing. We reconfirmed torque on all line side conductors to the service (supply side interconnection using Polaris taps). Low and behold, I get a second client with the exact same issue yesterday. The circumstances are eerily alike. Both disconnects are located on the west side of the house and have 36 IQ7+ microinverters on an IQ Combiner, requiring 60A fuses on the 60A fusible disconnect. The combined inverter output rating is 43.56A. The interconnections are identical with #6 THHN 90ºC conductors and Polaris taps. Both disconnects have conductors on the right-hand side line-side terminal that are discolored (the copper is silvery, the insulation is not burned). The fuses blow at peak current around 1:30 pm, only on bright and sunny days. I'm starting to suspect a faulty fusible disconnect switch. Maybe the blades are not making proper contact with the line side terminals. For the client who is having regular/frequent fuses blowing I plan to replace the disconnect with a heavy-duty version or possibly get a 100A disconnect with fuse reducers. I'm not sure which option would yield a better test. I might also switch brands. Currently, we are using GE TG3222R. The fuses are Bussman FRN-R Time Delay. I have to believe a heavy-duty switch would be less susceptible to this, but maybe a higher rated one would be a better option. I'm not a fan of fuse reducers, however.  Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 5:54 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: The tripping breaker occurred at random times, even at night. No weather-related correlation. I have more research to do to see when this fuse issue is happening, but previous visits showed no water ingress. I'm not sure about temperature. On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 8:51 PM Jay wrote: Hi Jason One thought I have about the blowing fuse is to check it with a IR tool.  I suspect a poor connection of the fuse to holder which during higher air temp is causing it to fail.   I’m assuming that the correct amp size and slow blow fuse Is installed and that the wire connections are done correctly. But again an IR tool during peak heat would be  a good test.  About the enphase fix, wow what a head scratcher. But given that it’s fixed it means that it’s not a short, but enough amps going through over enough time to trip it. I wonder if a magnetic hydraulic vs thermal breaker ( CBI  vs CH etc) would have worked? Is that breaker box ever in the sun?  Is there any Correlation between  high ambient temperatures and tripping?   It sure would keep me up at night too  Jay On Aug 27, 2020, at 4:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:  So the resolution to this is in... But I still have no idea what was wrong.  The string of 10 offending microinverters was split into 5 and 5. We had a spare breaker in the IQ Combiner so it was relatively easy to run another branch circuit. It has been over two months with no recurrence. So the issue seems to be resolved, but again, no idea why. So here we go again... On another system we have a similar problem now. In this case it is supply side interconnected with a fusible disconnect. The same fuse (same line) keeps blowing every few to several weeks. We can't find any home run wiring issues or issues with terminator caps. There are no apparent faults in the AC Combiner. We have no idea why this is happening. But in this system, just the fuse blows, not one of the individual branch circuit breakers.  This is getting very frustrating. And this is way more serious because fuses and service calls are expensive and I can't isolate the issue to one branch circuit. I don't even know where to start. Leaving each circuit disconnected for several weeks to prove a negative is an untenable suggestion to make to a client. But I don't see any other good options.  Jason Szumlanski  On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 3:42 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: Yes, we double-checked that. I have seen that happen before and it's one of my early diagnostic steps for something like this. On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:18 AM Mac Lewis wrote: Hi Jason, Are you certain that the branch circuits aren't crisscrossed somewhere, meaning that an L1 branch 1, isn't connected to an L2 branch 2?  That could explain two different breakers tripping.   Good luck On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 1:07 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: Undoubtedly, the termination caps are the second thing we check after the rooftop junction box(es). These are prone to installation errors, even when the right parts are used. And given the cost, I've thought very long and hard about abandoning them altogether and terminating strings in small j-boxes with watertight fittings. But in this case, there was no evidence of improper installation (we replaced them) and it was not correlated to rain events. We are well equipped with bare Q-cable and field wireables that we could use for troubleshooting to bypass certain sections, but the intermittent nature of the problem and unpredictable timeframe between faults is very frustrating. While this is a rare occurrence, it is definitely a "con" to consider when comparing string vs. microinverters that I had not strongly considered in the past. I'm intent on getting to the bottom of this in order to learn what to look for in the future and how to approach diagnoses of Enphase branch circuit faults. Jason On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 2:31 PM Amos Post wrote: I was just at a site last week where the Enphase branch circuit breaker, outside utility disconnect breaker, and feed breaker in the main panel all tripped simultaneously, and it happened about 1 hour before I showed up onsite.  The customer said it had happened 1 other time last fall but that time it was just the 1 branch circuit in the Enphase combiner panel.  Interestingly the customer mentioned that he had just washed off the panels, also about 1 hour before I got there.  I went on the roof and found that the installing contractor had not put on the Enphase termination caps.  1 string was wire-nutted with regular wire nuts and sitting on the roof, and the roof was damp right there. This was a fairly flat roof.  The other micro trunk cable was just cut with no protection at all, tied to the rail…        Amos Post    Integrity Energy   W 802.763.7023    C 802.291.2188     ienergyVT.com         Facebook On Jun 3, 2020, at 2:05 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: The breaker in the main panel IS tripping simultaneously with one of the branch circuit breakers each time. On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 12:43 PM Jay wrote: A question that keeps nagging me is why do these breakers trip and not the breaker in the main panel?   Presuming there is a 40 amp in the main I would have thought that given all the times the breakers have tripped at some point that one would have tripped and I can’t understand why not?   Jay  On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote:  Wrenches Looking g at the bigger breaker tripping at the same time is very likely do to response time of the breaker nothing more. As l suggested in a previous message. Use a non bridged breaker to see if it is one or both legs that trip. Also an eguage will help to see what if anything leads up to the failure and when.  Jerry Jerry On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 7:58 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: I wonder about that. Of course, it could be the "inverter output circuit" having a fault in the wiring still (an intermittent issue somewhere within the IQ cable or home run wiring). But internal to the microinverter, is it possible that a fault could still occur at night? I had a suggestion from another wrench that there are film capacitors on the AC output side, but are these isolated when there is no DC input? It seems unlikely that this would be an issue, but I have seen microinverters reporting a couple of watts at night (in Enlighten). I'm not sure how real that is. The overriding question I have is what kind of fault would cause BOTH a branch circuit and the main solar breaker to trip simultaneously? That seems odd to me. If any normal load branch circuit has a fault, you don't often see premises main breakers tripping, or even feeder circuit breakers. I got to thinking that maybe there is some kind of issue between the BR220 and CH240 breakers not playing nicely together. But I would think this would be a well-known issue because I'm sure there are tons of CH feeder breakers in the wild with BR branch circuits downstream.  On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 9:25 AM wrote: If it trips at night, we know it is not the output from the inverters causing the tripping. The current must be coming from the grid. ---   On 2020-06-01 12:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote:   It's not weather. It's at all times of the day and night, and I confirmed that there is no correlation to rain or high winds. That was my first suspicion.   On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:27 AM Ray wrote: Is it at all weather related?  Rain, or high humidity?  High temperatures?  Do you have any indication what time of day it trips off at? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time.    As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two weeks and then trip again.   I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole system apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel that I need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive proposition. I really don't know what else to do at this point.   Jason   On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we will see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I doubt I have two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined breaker. I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were tripping simultaneously with the combined output breaker.   Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have seen many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I would be replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue whatsoever.           On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM wrote: Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and max string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the string's associated breaker in the Enphase combiner.   We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped again. We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the breaker was less than perfect from the start as we've add equally nice days since.   This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra careful going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max published...   My story.   Scot   From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng   I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters each coming into an Enphase AC combiner.    What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker.    Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit.     I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if there is in fact a fault.   I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed.    Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group     _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Nov 19 15:39:45 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 15:39:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: References: <51E3F257-8E76-467E-830B-D344A7545F47@gmail.com> <55ee31be-37ba-5a8e-4f3c-037b06605c9b@solarray.com> Message-ID: <073d5771-5419-bf19-ab1f-37dae717912c@solarray.com> 114F was just the temperature where the derate in the NEC goes below the continuous amps rating.  I had no idea what the temperatures actually were.  Normally I do just as you did, and figure ambient temperature based on AHSRAE.  However another read of that part of the code seems to indicate it would be the highest air temperature the conductor would be exposed to.  So the section of wiring in the attic at 140 F should be designed for that. There is an exemption if its less than 10% of the total circuit, though. This is yet another thing I haven't been really paying enough attention to, but now that someone else is having issues, its probably time to include even more strenuous temperature derating.  How, for instance, would we calculate the temperature inside that disconnect box when its in the sun?  and it would depend on the color..... Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/19/20 8:48 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > All good info. > > I plan to take my FLIR One out next time. I can paint it white in both > cases I suppose. > > As for the temps, the high ambient here is 93ºF per ASHRAE. Inside > attics, we can see temps exceeding 140ºF here. We don't derate > conductors for that. I'm not sure where 114ºF comes from, but I get > the point. The interior of the enclosure can certainly get blazing > hot. This definitely seems to be a heat-related issue whether the NEC > intent has been met or not. Upping the tap conductors to #4 or larger > would not be difficult or expensive to accomplish. I will likely make > that our new standard for 50A and 60A calculated circuits for > supply-side interconnections made outdoors. > > Jason > > > On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 8:13 PM Ray > wrote: > > What is the brand and model of the disconnect? Temp ratings of the > terminals?  I've definitely had fuse holders not make good contact > with the fuses and burn the fuses at one end, instead of in the > middle.  Have you looked at it with a Thermal imaging camera when > its operating to see if its hot on one end of the fuse? > > Second, depending on the temperature it would be hitting inside > the enclosure in the sun, you could be exceeding the rating of the > #6 conductor.  Assuming terminals rated at 75C, then from 310.16, > a #6 is rated 65 A, but derate for temperature of 114F inside the > enclosure gets you to .82 x 65 = 53.3, which is a bit less than > the 54.45 that Dave just calculated for continuous duty. > > What color is the disconnect painted?  any chance of painting it > white? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 11/18/20 4:16 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> Jason, >> Bright sunny days, disconnect on the west side of house, maybe in >> the sun? 43.56A * 1.25 for continuous duty = 54.45A. If these >> disconnects are also baking in the sun, maybe the extra ambient >> heat is enough to push it over the edge? Just a thought. >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> o. _607.277.1118 x121_  f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com >> >> Solar •Sustainability • Energy • Design >> Certified B-Corporation since 2013 >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 3:41 PM Jay > > wrote: >> >> Hi Jason >> >> Any chance for some photos? >> >> Jay >> >>> On Nov 18, 2020, at 12:18 PM, Jason Szumlanski >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>>  >>> The plot thickens on the fuse blowing issue. Again, we tore >>> the Enphase IQ system apart looking for any reason for the >>> fuse to keep blowing. We reconfirmed torque on all line side >>> conductors to the service (supply side interconnection using >>> Polaris taps). >>> >>> Low and behold, I get a second client with the exact same >>> issue yesterday. The circumstances are eerily alike. Both >>> disconnects are located on the west side of the house and >>> have 36 IQ7+ microinverters on an IQ Combiner, requiring 60A >>> fuses on the 60A fusible disconnect. The combined inverter >>> output rating is 43.56A. The interconnections are identical >>> with #6 THHN 90ºC conductors and Polaris taps. Both >>> disconnects have conductors on the right-hand side line-side >>> terminal that are discolored (the copper is silvery, the >>> insulation is not burned). The fuses blow at peak current >>> around 1:30 pm, only on bright and sunny days. >>> >>> I'm starting to suspect a faulty fusible disconnect switch. >>> Maybe the blades are not making proper contact with the line >>> side terminals. >>> >>> For the client who is having regular/frequent fuses blowing >>> I plan to replace the disconnect with a heavy-duty version >>> or possibly get a 100A disconnect with fuse reducers. I'm >>> not sure which option would yield a better test. I might >>> also switch brands. >>> >>> Currently, we are using GE TG3222R. The fuses are Bussman >>> FRN-R Time Delay. I have to believe a heavy-duty switch >>> would be less susceptible to this, but maybe a higher rated >>> one would be a better option. I'm not a fan of fuse >>> reducers, however. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 5:54 PM Jason Szumlanski >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> The tripping breaker occurred at random times, even at >>> night. No weather-related correlation. >>> >>> I have more research to do to see when this fuse issue >>> is happening, but previous visits showed no water >>> ingress. I'm not sure about temperature. >>> >>> * >>> >>> * >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 8:51 PM Jay >> > wrote: >>> >>> Hi Jason >>> >>> One thought I have about the blowing fuse is to >>> check it with a IR tool. >>> >>> I suspect a poor connection of the fuse to holder >>> which during higher air temp is causing it to fail. >>> I’m assuming that the correct amp size and slow blow >>> fuse Is installed and that the wire connections are >>> done correctly. But again an IR tool during peak >>> heat would be  a good test. >>> >>> About the enphase fix, wow what a head scratcher. >>> But given that it’s fixed it means that it’s not a >>> short, but enough amps going through over enough >>> time to trip it. I wonder if a magnetic hydraulic vs >>> thermal breaker ( CBI  vs CH etc) would have worked? >>> >>> Is that breaker box ever in the sun?  Is there any >>> Correlation between  high ambient temperatures and >>> tripping? >>> >>> It sure would keep me up at night too >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>>> On Aug 27, 2020, at 4:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> So the resolution to this is in... But I still have >>>> no idea what was wrong. >>>> >>>> The string of 10 offending microinverters was split >>>> into 5 and 5. We had a spare breaker in the IQ >>>> Combiner so it was relatively easy to run another >>>> branch circuit. It has been over two months with no >>>> recurrence. So the issue seems to be resolved, but >>>> again, no idea why. >>>> >>>> So here we go again... On another system we have a >>>> similar problem now. In this case it is supply side >>>> interconnected with a fusible disconnect. The same >>>> fuse (same line) keeps blowing every few to several >>>> weeks. We can't find any home run wiring issues or >>>> issues with terminator caps. There are no apparent >>>> faults in the AC Combiner. We have no idea why >>>> this is happening. But in this system, just the >>>> fuse blows, not one of the individual branch >>>> circuit breakers. >>>> >>>> This is getting very frustrating. And this is way >>>> more serious because fuses and service calls are >>>> expensive and I can't isolate the issue to one >>>> branch circuit. I don't even know where to start. >>>> Leaving each circuit disconnected for several weeks >>>> to prove a negative is an untenable suggestion to >>>> make to a client. But I don't see any other good >>>> options. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 3:42 PM Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Yes, we double-checked that. I have seen that >>>> happen before and it's one of my early >>>> diagnostic steps for something like this. >>>> >>>> * >>>> >>>> * >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:18 AM Mac Lewis >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Jason, >>>> >>>> Are you certain that the branch circuits >>>> aren't crisscrossed somewhere, meaning that >>>> an L1 branch 1, isn't connected to an L2 >>>> branch 2?  That could explain two different >>>> breakers tripping. >>>> >>>> Good luck >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 1:07 PM Jason >>>> Szumlanski >>>> >>> > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Undoubtedly, the termination caps are >>>> the second thing we check after the >>>> rooftop junction box(es). These are >>>> prone to installation errors, even when >>>> the right parts are used. And given the >>>> cost, I've thought very long and hard >>>> about abandoning them altogether and >>>> terminating strings in small j-boxes >>>> with watertight fittings. But in this >>>> case, there was no evidence of improper >>>> installation (we replaced them) and it >>>> was not correlated to rain events. >>>> >>>> We are well equipped with bare Q-cable >>>> and field wireables that we could use >>>> for troubleshooting to bypass certain >>>> sections, but the intermittent nature >>>> of the problem and unpredictable >>>> timeframe between faults is very >>>> frustrating. While this is a >>>> rare occurrence, it is definitely a >>>> "con" to consider when comparing string >>>> vs. microinverters that I had not >>>> strongly considered in the past. I'm >>>> intent on getting to the bottom of this >>>> in order to learn what to look for in >>>> the future and how to approach >>>> diagnoses of Enphase branch circuit faults. >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> >>>> >>>> * >>>> >>>> * >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 2:31 PM Amos >>>> Post >>> > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I was just at a site last week >>>> where the Enphase branch circuit >>>> breaker, outside utility disconnect >>>> breaker, and feed breaker in the >>>> main panel all tripped >>>> simultaneously, and it happened >>>> about 1 hour before I showed up >>>> onsite.  The customer said it had >>>> happened 1 other time last fall but >>>> that time it was just the 1 branch >>>> circuit in the Enphase combiner >>>> panel. Interestingly the customer >>>> mentioned that he had just washed >>>> off the panels, also about 1 hour >>>> before I got there.  I went on the >>>> roof and found that the installing >>>> contractor had not put on the >>>> Enphase termination caps.  1 string >>>> was wire-nutted with regular wire >>>> nuts and sitting on the roof, and >>>> the roof was damp right there. This >>>> was a fairly flat roof.  The other >>>> micro trunk cable was just cut with >>>> no protection at all, tied to the >>>> rail… >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>      Amos Post >>>> Integrity Energy >>>> W 802.763.7023 >>>>  C 802.291.2188 >>>> ienergyVT.com >>>> >>>> >>>> Facebook >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 2:05 PM, Jason >>>>> Szumlanski >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The breaker in the main panel IS >>>>> tripping simultaneously with one >>>>> of the branch circuit breakers >>>>> each time. >>>>> * >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> * >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 12:43 PM >>>>> Jay >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> A question that keeps nagging >>>>> me is why do these breakers >>>>> trip and not the breaker in >>>>> the main panel? >>>>> Presuming there is a 40 amp in >>>>> the main >>>>> >>>>> I would have thought that >>>>> given all the times the >>>>> breakers have tripped at some >>>>> point that one would have >>>>> tripped and I can’t understand >>>>> why not? >>>>> >>>>> Jay >>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:27 AM, >>>>>> Jerry Shafer >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>  >>>>>> Wrenches >>>>>> Looking g at the bigger >>>>>> breaker tripping at the same >>>>>> time is very likely do to >>>>>> response time of the breaker >>>>>> nothing more. As l suggested >>>>>> in a previous message. Use a >>>>>> non bridged breaker to see if >>>>>> it is one or both legs that >>>>>> trip. Also an eguage will >>>>>> help to see what if anything >>>>>> leads up to the failure and >>>>>> when. >>>>>> Jerry >>>>>> Jerry >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 7:58 AM >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I wonder about that. Of >>>>>> course, it could be the >>>>>> "inverter output circuit" >>>>>> having a fault in the >>>>>> wiring still (an >>>>>> intermittent issue >>>>>> somewhere within the IQ >>>>>> cable or home run >>>>>> wiring). But internal to >>>>>> the microinverter, is it >>>>>> possible that a fault >>>>>> could still occur at >>>>>> night? I had a suggestion >>>>>> from another wrench that >>>>>> there are film capacitors >>>>>> on the AC output side, >>>>>> but are these isolated >>>>>> when there is no DC >>>>>> input? It seems unlikely >>>>>> that this would be an >>>>>> issue, but I have seen >>>>>> microinverters reporting >>>>>> a couple of watts at >>>>>> night (in Enlighten). I'm >>>>>> not sure how real that is. >>>>>> >>>>>> The overriding question I >>>>>> have is what kind of >>>>>> fault would cause BOTH a >>>>>> branch circuit and the >>>>>> main solar breaker to >>>>>> trip simultaneously? That >>>>>> seems odd to me. If any >>>>>> normal load branch >>>>>> circuit has a fault, you >>>>>> don't often see >>>>>> premises main breakers >>>>>> tripping, or even feeder >>>>>> circuit breakers. >>>>>> >>>>>> I got to thinking that >>>>>> maybe there is some kind >>>>>> of issue between the >>>>>> BR220 and CH240 breakers >>>>>> not playing nicely >>>>>> together. But I would >>>>>> think this would be a >>>>>> well-known issue because >>>>>> I'm sure there are tons >>>>>> of CH feeder breakers in >>>>>> the wild with BR branch >>>>>> circuits downstream. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at >>>>>> 9:25 AM >>>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> If it trips at night, >>>>>> we know it is not the >>>>>> output from the >>>>>> inverters causing the >>>>>> tripping. The current >>>>>> must be coming from >>>>>> the grid. >>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2020-06-01 12:05, >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> It's not weather. >>>>>>> It's at all times of >>>>>>> the day and night, >>>>>>> and I confirmed that >>>>>>> there is no >>>>>>> correlation to rain >>>>>>> or high winds. That >>>>>>> was my first suspicion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 >>>>>>> at 10:27 AM Ray >>>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is it at all >>>>>>> weather related? >>>>>>> Rain, or high >>>>>>> humidity? High >>>>>>> temperatures? Do >>>>>>> you have any >>>>>>> indication what >>>>>>> time of day it >>>>>>> trips off at? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 6/1/20 10:23 >>>>>>> AM, Jason >>>>>>> Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>> Well, that >>>>>>>> didn't resolve >>>>>>>> it. The main >>>>>>>> breaker and a >>>>>>>> branch circuit >>>>>>>> breaker tripped >>>>>>>> again a few >>>>>>>> days ago. It >>>>>>>> was the same >>>>>>>> branch this time. >>>>>>>> As my next >>>>>>>> diagnostic step >>>>>>>> I swapped two >>>>>>>> circuits (on >>>>>>>> which breaker >>>>>>>> they are >>>>>>>> landed). If >>>>>>>> history is a >>>>>>>> guide, it will >>>>>>>> work for about >>>>>>>> two weeks and >>>>>>>> then trip again. >>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>> dumbfounded. I >>>>>>>> really don't >>>>>>>> want to have to >>>>>>>> tear this whole >>>>>>>> system apart. >>>>>>>> At this point, >>>>>>>> if I have to >>>>>>>> remove all the >>>>>>>> modules, I feel >>>>>>>> that I need to >>>>>>>> replace all of >>>>>>>> the trunk cable >>>>>>>> which is an >>>>>>>> expensive >>>>>>>> proposition. I >>>>>>>> really don't >>>>>>>> know what else >>>>>>>> to do at this >>>>>>>> point. >>>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, May 25, >>>>>>>> 2020, 10:43 AM >>>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>>> Szumlanski >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I strongly >>>>>>>> suspect the >>>>>>>> CH240 >>>>>>>> combined >>>>>>>> breaker was >>>>>>>> compromised >>>>>>>> (we will >>>>>>>> see). Since >>>>>>>> it happened >>>>>>>> that two >>>>>>>> different >>>>>>>> strings >>>>>>>> tripped, I >>>>>>>> doubt I >>>>>>>> have two >>>>>>>> microinverters >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> internal >>>>>>>> faults. It >>>>>>>> has to be >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> combined >>>>>>>> breaker. I >>>>>>>> was just >>>>>>>> surprised >>>>>>>> that branch >>>>>>>> circuit >>>>>>>> breakers >>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>> tripping >>>>>>>> simultaneously with >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> combined >>>>>>>> output breaker. >>>>>>>> Of all the >>>>>>>> supply side >>>>>>>> connected >>>>>>>> systems I >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> installed, >>>>>>>> I have >>>>>>>> never seen >>>>>>>> a combined >>>>>>>> output >>>>>>>> fusible >>>>>>>> disconnect >>>>>>>> fuse blow, >>>>>>>> but I have >>>>>>>> seen many >>>>>>>> combined >>>>>>>> output >>>>>>>> breakers >>>>>>>> tripped. I >>>>>>>> was worried >>>>>>>> early on >>>>>>>> that I >>>>>>>> would be >>>>>>>> replacing >>>>>>>> fuses >>>>>>>> constantly, >>>>>>>> but that >>>>>>>> has not >>>>>>>> been an >>>>>>>> issue >>>>>>>> whatsoever. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, May >>>>>>>> 21, 2020 at >>>>>>>> 11:15 AM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Actually, >>>>>>>> we had >>>>>>>> a IQ7 >>>>>>>> string >>>>>>>> loaded >>>>>>>> up to >>>>>>>> its max >>>>>>>> panel >>>>>>>> size >>>>>>>> and max >>>>>>>> string >>>>>>>> length >>>>>>>> and in >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> spring >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> cool, >>>>>>>> clear >>>>>>>> day, it >>>>>>>> tripped >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> string's >>>>>>>> associated >>>>>>>> breaker >>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>> Enphase >>>>>>>> combiner. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We >>>>>>>> reset >>>>>>>> but of >>>>>>>> course >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> breaker >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>> and it >>>>>>>> tripped >>>>>>>> again. >>>>>>>> We >>>>>>>> replaced >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> never >>>>>>>> had an >>>>>>>> issue >>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>> forward. >>>>>>>> We >>>>>>>> suspect >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> breaker >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> less >>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>> perfect >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> start >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> we've >>>>>>>> add >>>>>>>> equally >>>>>>>> nice >>>>>>>> days since. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This >>>>>>>> almost >>>>>>>> reminds >>>>>>>> me of >>>>>>>> loading >>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>> Outback >>>>>>>> FM80. >>>>>>>> It says >>>>>>>> 4,000 >>>>>>>> watts >>>>>>>> but in >>>>>>>> reality, >>>>>>>> 3,600 >>>>>>>> is the >>>>>>>> max >>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>> amps >>>>>>>> spike. >>>>>>>> I will >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> extra >>>>>>>> careful >>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>> forward >>>>>>>> on IQ7 >>>>>>>> string >>>>>>>> length >>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>> max >>>>>>>> published... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My story. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Scot >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >*On >>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>> Of*Jason >>>>>>>> Szumlanski >>>>>>>> *Sent:*Thursday, >>>>>>>> May 21, >>>>>>>> 2020 >>>>>>>> 8:57 AM >>>>>>>> *To:*RE-wrenches >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] >>>>>>>> Enphase >>>>>>>> intermittent >>>>>>>> breaker >>>>>>>> trippjng >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>> trying >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> resolve >>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>> intermittent >>>>>>>> frustrating >>>>>>>> problem >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> Enphase >>>>>>>> IQ >>>>>>>> system. >>>>>>>> There >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> three >>>>>>>> AC >>>>>>>> Branch >>>>>>>> circuits >>>>>>>> of 9 >>>>>>>> microinverters >>>>>>>> each >>>>>>>> coming >>>>>>>> into an >>>>>>>> Enphase >>>>>>>> AC >>>>>>>> combiner. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What >>>>>>>> has >>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>> happening >>>>>>>> is one >>>>>>>> of the >>>>>>>> BR220 >>>>>>>> branch >>>>>>>> circuit >>>>>>>> breakers >>>>>>>> and the >>>>>>>> combine >>>>>>>> CH240 >>>>>>>> breaker >>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>> main >>>>>>>> backfed >>>>>>>> load >>>>>>>> center >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>> tripping >>>>>>>> simultaneously. >>>>>>>> It has >>>>>>>> happened >>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>> four >>>>>>>> times >>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>> last 6 >>>>>>>> months. >>>>>>>> It was >>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>> branch >>>>>>>> circuit >>>>>>>> breaker, >>>>>>>> so we >>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>> investigating >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> string, >>>>>>>> checking >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> junction >>>>>>>> box, >>>>>>>> trunk >>>>>>>> cable, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> cap, >>>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>>> Finally >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>> swapped >>>>>>>> out the >>>>>>>> BR220 >>>>>>>> breaker. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Fast >>>>>>>> forward >>>>>>>> 4 >>>>>>>> weeks, >>>>>>>> and we >>>>>>>> got >>>>>>>> another >>>>>>>> call. >>>>>>>> This >>>>>>>> time a >>>>>>>> different >>>>>>>> branch >>>>>>>> circuit >>>>>>>> breaker >>>>>>>> and the >>>>>>>> main >>>>>>>> breaker >>>>>>>> tripped >>>>>>>> simultaneously. >>>>>>>> We >>>>>>>> checked >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> branch >>>>>>>> circuit >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> could >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>> fault. >>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>> seems >>>>>>>> unlikely >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> two >>>>>>>> branch >>>>>>>> circuit >>>>>>>> breakers >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> faulty, >>>>>>>> so we >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>> switched >>>>>>>> out the >>>>>>>> CH240 >>>>>>>> main >>>>>>>> breaker >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> hopes >>>>>>>> that it >>>>>>>> is the >>>>>>>> culprit. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm not >>>>>>>> totally >>>>>>>> confident >>>>>>>> in this >>>>>>>> resolution >>>>>>>> and I >>>>>>>> have my >>>>>>>> fingers >>>>>>>> crossed. >>>>>>>> If that >>>>>>>> doesn't >>>>>>>> work, >>>>>>>> does >>>>>>>> anyone >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>> suggestions >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> another >>>>>>>> diagnostic >>>>>>>> step? >>>>>>>> These >>>>>>>> intermittent >>>>>>>> problems >>>>>>>> are a >>>>>>>> major >>>>>>>> hassle. >>>>>>>> One >>>>>>>> thought >>>>>>>> I had >>>>>>>> was to >>>>>>>> switch >>>>>>>> to a >>>>>>>> supply >>>>>>>> side >>>>>>>> interconnection >>>>>>>> with a >>>>>>>> fusible >>>>>>>> disconnect. >>>>>>>> Maybe >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> intermittent >>>>>>>> fault >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> blow >>>>>>>> one of >>>>>>>> the two >>>>>>>> line >>>>>>>> fuses >>>>>>>> so at >>>>>>>> least I >>>>>>>> could >>>>>>>> narrow >>>>>>>> it down >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>> line >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> fault >>>>>>>> is on >>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>> is in >>>>>>>> fact a >>>>>>>> fault. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have >>>>>>>> experienced >>>>>>>> two >>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>> tripping >>>>>>>> breaker >>>>>>>> issues >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> Enphase >>>>>>>> systems >>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>> past. >>>>>>>> Neither >>>>>>>> of them >>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>> systems >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> installed. >>>>>>>> One >>>>>>>> turned >>>>>>>> out to >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> branch >>>>>>>> circuits >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> properly >>>>>>>> paired >>>>>>>> up and >>>>>>>> landed >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> different >>>>>>>> breakers. >>>>>>>> Another >>>>>>>> time we >>>>>>>> had an >>>>>>>> inverter >>>>>>>> with an >>>>>>>> internal >>>>>>>> fault >>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>> eventually"blew >>>>>>>> up" >>>>>>>> with a >>>>>>>> loud >>>>>>>> popping >>>>>>>> noise >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> smoke >>>>>>>> billowing >>>>>>>> out of >>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>> That >>>>>>>> happened >>>>>>>> after >>>>>>>> resetting >>>>>>>> a trip >>>>>>>> breaker >>>>>>>> multiple >>>>>>>> times. >>>>>>>> This >>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>> seems >>>>>>>> to be >>>>>>>> unrelated >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>> issues. >>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>> perplexed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>>> Szumlanski >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Florida >>>>>>>> Solar >>>>>>>> Design >>>>>>>> Group >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >> work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Nov 19 17:11:07 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 17:11:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng In-Reply-To: <073d5771-5419-bf19-ab1f-37dae717912c@solarray.com> References: <51E3F257-8E76-467E-830B-D344A7545F47@gmail.com> <55ee31be-37ba-5a8e-4f3c-037b06605c9b@solarray.com> <073d5771-5419-bf19-ab1f-37dae717912c@solarray.com> Message-ID: Whether these heat factors should or must be taken into account are two different issues. From a performance standpoint and to reduce service issues, it might be wise to increase wire size to account for heat in an enclosure. But from an NEC standpoint, that's not required. For example, nobody I know derates #12 Romex in a 140º attic for a 20A circuit and uses #10 instead. Similarly, we aren't tasked with guessing what the temperature might be within a raceway (except on rooftops) or inside enclosures. Heck, the 75º conductor rating tops out in the temperature correction table at 158ºF. I'm willing to bet that temperature is achievable inside a disconnect switch in Florida, in which case there would be NO conductor size allowable for use in this circumstance if the terminals are 75ºF rated. With HD fusible disconnects substantially more expensive, the performance question becomes important. I plan to start looking closely at where these disconnects will be mounted and what contributing factors there are with respect to internal temperature. On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 3:39 PM Ray wrote: > 114F was just the temperature where the derate in the NEC goes below the > continuous amps rating. I had no idea what the temperatures actually > were. Normally I do just as you did, and figure ambient temperature based > on AHSRAE. However another read of that part of the code seems to indicate > it would be the highest air temperature the conductor would be exposed to. > So the section of wiring in the attic at 140 F should be designed for > that. There is an exemption if its less than 10% of the total circuit, > though. > > This is yet another thing I haven't been really paying enough attention > to, but now that someone else is having issues, its probably time to > include even more strenuous temperature derating. How, for instance, would > we calculate the temperature inside that disconnect box when its in the > sun? and it would depend on the color..... > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 11/19/20 8:48 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > All good info. > > I plan to take my FLIR One out next time. I can paint it white in both > cases I suppose. > > As for the temps, the high ambient here is 93ºF per ASHRAE. Inside attics, > we can see temps exceeding 140ºF here. We don't derate conductors for that. > I'm not sure where 114ºF comes from, but I get the point. The interior of > the enclosure can certainly get blazing hot. This definitely seems to be a > heat-related issue whether the NEC intent has been met or not. Upping the > tap conductors to #4 or larger would not be difficult or expensive to > accomplish. I will likely make that our new standard for 50A and 60A > calculated circuits for supply-side interconnections made outdoors. > > Jason > > > On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 8:13 PM Ray wrote: > >> What is the brand and model of the disconnect? Temp ratings of the >> terminals? I've definitely had fuse holders not make good contact with the >> fuses and burn the fuses at one end, instead of in the middle. Have you >> looked at it with a Thermal imaging camera when its operating to see if its >> hot on one end of the fuse? >> >> Second, depending on the temperature it would be hitting inside the >> enclosure in the sun, you could be exceeding the rating of the #6 >> conductor. Assuming terminals rated at 75C, then from 310.16, a #6 is >> rated 65 A, but derate for temperature of 114F inside the enclosure gets >> you to .82 x 65 = 53.3, which is a bit less than the 54.45 that Dave just >> calculated for continuous duty. >> >> What color is the disconnect painted? any chance of painting it white? >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 11/18/20 4:16 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> >> Jason, >> Bright sunny days, disconnect on the west side of house, maybe in the >> sun? 43.56A * 1.25 for continuous duty = 54.45A. If these disconnects are >> also baking in the sun, maybe the extra ambient heat is enough to push it >> over the edge? Just a thought. >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com >> >> >> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design >> Certified B-Corporation since 2013 >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 3:41 PM Jay wrote: >> >>> Hi Jason >>> >>> Any chance for some photos? >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> On Nov 18, 2020, at 12:18 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> The plot thickens on the fuse blowing issue. Again, we tore the Enphase >>> IQ system apart looking for any reason for the fuse to keep blowing. We >>> reconfirmed torque on all line side conductors to the service (supply side >>> interconnection using Polaris taps). >>> >>> Low and behold, I get a second client with the exact same issue >>> yesterday. The circumstances are eerily alike. Both disconnects are located >>> on the west side of the house and have 36 IQ7+ microinverters on an IQ >>> Combiner, requiring 60A fuses on the 60A fusible disconnect. The combined >>> inverter output rating is 43.56A. The interconnections are identical with >>> #6 THHN 90ºC conductors and Polaris taps. Both disconnects have conductors >>> on the right-hand side line-side terminal that are discolored (the copper >>> is silvery, the insulation is not burned). The fuses blow at peak current >>> around 1:30 pm, only on bright and sunny days. >>> >>> I'm starting to suspect a faulty fusible disconnect switch. Maybe the >>> blades are not making proper contact with the line side terminals. >>> >>> For the client who is having regular/frequent fuses blowing I plan to >>> replace the disconnect with a heavy-duty version or possibly get a 100A >>> disconnect with fuse reducers. I'm not sure which option would yield a >>> better test. I might also switch brands. >>> >>> Currently, we are using GE TG3222R. The fuses are Bussman FRN-R Time >>> Delay. I have to believe a heavy-duty switch would be less susceptible to >>> this, but maybe a higher rated one would be a better option. I'm not a fan >>> of fuse reducers, however. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 5:54 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> The tripping breaker occurred at random times, even at night. No >>>> weather-related correlation. >>>> >>>> I have more research to do to see when this fuse issue is >>>> happening, but previous visits showed no water ingress. I'm not sure about >>>> temperature. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 8:51 PM Jay wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Jason >>>>> >>>>> One thought I have about the blowing fuse is to check it with a IR >>>>> tool. >>>>> >>>>> I suspect a poor connection of the fuse to holder which during higher >>>>> air temp is causing it to fail. >>>>> I’m assuming that the correct amp size and slow blow fuse Is installed >>>>> and that the wire connections are done correctly. But again an IR tool >>>>> during peak heat would be a good test. >>>>> >>>>> About the enphase fix, wow what a head scratcher. But given that it’s >>>>> fixed it means that it’s not a short, but enough amps going through over >>>>> enough time to trip it. I wonder if a magnetic hydraulic vs thermal breaker >>>>> ( CBI vs CH etc) would have worked? >>>>> >>>>> Is that breaker box ever in the sun? Is there any Correlation between >>>>> high ambient temperatures and tripping? >>>>> >>>>> It sure would keep me up at night too >>>>> >>>>> Jay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Aug 27, 2020, at 4:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> So the resolution to this is in... But I still have no idea what was >>>>> wrong. >>>>> >>>>> The string of 10 offending microinverters was split into 5 and 5. We >>>>> had a spare breaker in the IQ Combiner so it was relatively easy to run >>>>> another branch circuit. It has been over two months with no recurrence. So >>>>> the issue seems to be resolved, but again, no idea why. >>>>> >>>>> So here we go again... On another system we have a similar problem >>>>> now. In this case it is supply side interconnected with a fusible >>>>> disconnect. The same fuse (same line) keeps blowing every few to several >>>>> weeks. We can't find any home run wiring issues or issues with terminator >>>>> caps. There are no apparent faults in the AC Combiner. We have no idea why >>>>> this is happening. But in this system, just the fuse blows, not one of the >>>>> individual branch circuit breakers. >>>>> >>>>> This is getting very frustrating. And this is way more serious because >>>>> fuses and service calls are expensive and I can't isolate the issue to one >>>>> branch circuit. I don't even know where to start. Leaving each circuit >>>>> disconnected for several weeks to prove a negative is an untenable >>>>> suggestion to make to a client. But I don't see any other good options. >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 3:42 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Yes, we double-checked that. I have seen that happen before and it's >>>>>> one of my early diagnostic steps for something like this. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:18 AM Mac Lewis wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Jason, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Are you certain that the branch circuits aren't crisscrossed >>>>>>> somewhere, meaning that an L1 branch 1, isn't connected to an L2 branch 2? >>>>>>> That could explain two different breakers tripping. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Good luck >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 1:07 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Undoubtedly, the termination caps are the second thing we check >>>>>>>> after the rooftop junction box(es). These are prone to installation errors, >>>>>>>> even when the right parts are used. And given the cost, I've thought very >>>>>>>> long and hard about abandoning them altogether and terminating strings in >>>>>>>> small j-boxes with watertight fittings. But in this case, there was no >>>>>>>> evidence of improper installation (we replaced them) and it was not >>>>>>>> correlated to rain events. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We are well equipped with bare Q-cable and field wireables that we >>>>>>>> could use for troubleshooting to bypass certain sections, but the >>>>>>>> intermittent nature of the problem and unpredictable timeframe between >>>>>>>> faults is very frustrating. While this is a rare occurrence, it is >>>>>>>> definitely a "con" to consider when comparing string vs. microinverters >>>>>>>> that I had not strongly considered in the past. I'm intent on getting to >>>>>>>> the bottom of this in order to learn what to look for in the future and how >>>>>>>> to approach diagnoses of Enphase branch circuit faults. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 2:31 PM Amos Post < >>>>>>>> integrityenergy101 at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I was just at a site last week where the Enphase branch circuit >>>>>>>>> breaker, outside utility disconnect breaker, and feed breaker in the main >>>>>>>>> panel all tripped simultaneously, and it happened about 1 hour before I >>>>>>>>> showed up onsite. The customer said it had happened 1 other time last fall >>>>>>>>> but that time it was just the 1 branch circuit in the Enphase combiner >>>>>>>>> panel. Interestingly the customer mentioned that he had just washed off >>>>>>>>> the panels, also about 1 hour before I got there. I went on the roof and >>>>>>>>> found that the installing contractor had not put on the Enphase termination >>>>>>>>> caps. 1 string was wire-nutted with regular wire nuts and sitting on the >>>>>>>>> roof, and the roof was damp right there. This was a fairly flat roof. The >>>>>>>>> other micro trunk cable was just cut with no protection at all, tied to the >>>>>>>>> rail… >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Amos Post >>>>>>>>> Integrity Energy >>>>>>>>> W 802.763.7023 >>>>>>>>> C 802.291.2188 >>>>>>>>> ienergyVT.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Facebook >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 2:05 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The breaker in the main panel IS tripping simultaneously with one >>>>>>>>> of the branch circuit breakers each time. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 12:43 PM Jay wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A question that keeps nagging me is why do these breakers trip >>>>>>>>>> and not the breaker in the main panel? >>>>>>>>>> Presuming there is a 40 amp in the main >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I would have thought that given all the times the breakers have >>>>>>>>>> tripped at some point that one would have tripped and I can’t understand >>>>>>>>>> why not? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jerry Shafer < >>>>>>>>>> jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>>> Wrenches >>>>>>>>>> Looking g at the bigger breaker tripping at the same time is very >>>>>>>>>> likely do to response time of the breaker nothing more. As l suggested in a >>>>>>>>>> previous message. Use a non bridged breaker to see if it is one or both >>>>>>>>>> legs that trip. Also an eguage will help to see what if anything leads up >>>>>>>>>> to the failure and when. >>>>>>>>>> Jerry >>>>>>>>>> Jerry >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 7:58 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I wonder about that. Of course, it could be the "inverter output >>>>>>>>>>> circuit" having a fault in the wiring still (an intermittent issue >>>>>>>>>>> somewhere within the IQ cable or home run wiring). But internal to the >>>>>>>>>>> microinverter, is it possible that a fault could still occur at night? I >>>>>>>>>>> had a suggestion from another wrench that there are film capacitors on the >>>>>>>>>>> AC output side, but are these isolated when there is no DC input? It seems >>>>>>>>>>> unlikely that this would be an issue, but I have seen microinverters >>>>>>>>>>> reporting a couple of watts at night (in Enlighten). I'm not sure how real >>>>>>>>>>> that is. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The overriding question I have is what kind of fault would cause >>>>>>>>>>> BOTH a branch circuit and the main solar breaker to trip simultaneously? >>>>>>>>>>> That seems odd to me. If any normal load branch circuit has a fault, you >>>>>>>>>>> don't often see premises main breakers tripping, or even feeder circuit >>>>>>>>>>> breakers. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I got to thinking that maybe there is some kind of issue between >>>>>>>>>>> the BR220 and CH240 breakers not playing nicely together. But I would think >>>>>>>>>>> this would be a well-known issue because I'm sure there are tons of CH >>>>>>>>>>> feeder breakers in the wild with BR branch circuits downstream. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 9:25 AM < >>>>>>>>>>> drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> If it trips at night, we know it is not the output from the >>>>>>>>>>>> inverters causing the tripping. The current must be coming from the grid. >>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2020-06-01 12:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It's not weather. It's at all times of the day and night, and I >>>>>>>>>>>> confirmed that there is no correlation to rain or high winds. That was my >>>>>>>>>>>> first suspicion. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:27 AM Ray wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Is it at all weather related? Rain, or high humidity? High >>>>>>>>>>>> temperatures? Do you have any indication what time of day it trips off at? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch >>>>>>>>>>>> circuit breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this >>>>>>>>>>>> time. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which >>>>>>>>>>>> breaker they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two >>>>>>>>>>>> weeks and then trip again. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole >>>>>>>>>>>> system apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel >>>>>>>>>>>> that I need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive >>>>>>>>>>>> proposition. I really don't know what else to do at this point. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>>>>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised >>>>>>>>>>>> (we will see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I >>>>>>>>>>>> doubt I have two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the >>>>>>>>>>>> combined breaker. I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were >>>>>>>>>>>> tripping simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I >>>>>>>>>>>> have never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have >>>>>>>>>>>> seen many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I >>>>>>>>>>>> would be replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue >>>>>>>>>>>> whatsoever. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size >>>>>>>>>>>> and max string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the >>>>>>>>>>>> string's associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped >>>>>>>>>>>> again. We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the >>>>>>>>>>>> breaker was less than perfect from the start as we've add equally nice days >>>>>>>>>>>> since. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says >>>>>>>>>>>> 4,000 watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be >>>>>>>>>>>> extra careful going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max >>>>>>>>>>>> published... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> My story. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Scot >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> *From:* RE-wrenches >>>>>>>>>>>> *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with >>>>>>>>>>>> and Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 >>>>>>>>>>>> microinverters each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit >>>>>>>>>>>> breakers and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have >>>>>>>>>>>> been tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last >>>>>>>>>>>> 6 months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >>>>>>>>>>>> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, >>>>>>>>>>>> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a >>>>>>>>>>>> different branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped >>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously. We checked that branch circuit and could not find any >>>>>>>>>>>> fault. It seems unlikely that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, >>>>>>>>>>>> so we have now switched out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the >>>>>>>>>>>> culprit. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my >>>>>>>>>>>> fingers crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on >>>>>>>>>>>> another diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. >>>>>>>>>>>> One thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a >>>>>>>>>>>> fusible disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two >>>>>>>>>>>> line fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on >>>>>>>>>>>> if there is in fact a fault. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with >>>>>>>>>>>> Enphase systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One >>>>>>>>>>>> turned out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and >>>>>>>>>>>> landed on different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an >>>>>>>>>>>> internal fault which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and >>>>>>>>>>>> smoke billowing out of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker >>>>>>>>>>>> multiple times. This case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm >>>>>>>>>>>> perplexed. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Nov 19 17:25:36 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 17:25:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent fuse trippjng In-Reply-To: References: <51E3F257-8E76-467E-830B-D344A7545F47@gmail.com> <55ee31be-37ba-5a8e-4f3c-037b06605c9b@solarray.com> <24125d34-d02c-e531-892c-05bca6715308@psln.com> Message-ID: Very interesting, Jay. The Bussman curve I just looked up is very similar. If that is the sole issue then replacing the disconnect alone with an HD version may not solve the problem. The better corrective action may be increasing the fuse rating and the wire size accordingly. However, since this is a 60A disconnect fused at 60A, that would require going to a 100A disconnect. I suppose increasing one wire size to #4 and using 80A fuses in a 100A disconnect may do the trick. Now I'm conflicted. I don't know for certain whether direct sunlight is the primary issue since this happens on west walls under 18-inch eaves around 1:30pm (an hour after solar noon). My issue could still be a faulty or poorly designed switch. On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 1:51 PM jay wrote: > I looked up on the eaton site and found this information. Page 6, its a > temperature derate curve, which I think is your problem. > > In short, at 160F, for a slow blow fuse it is derated 20%. > At 176f its 25% derated. > > I couldn’t find any fuses that have a high temp rating. > > jay > > > https://m.littelfuse.com/~/media/electrical/application-notes/powr-gard-technical-application-guide.pdf > > > > > On Nov 19, 2020, at 8:19 AM, Ken Schaal wrote: > > From my experience with reflective roofs galvanized quickly ages becoming > less reflective! White is best aluminum paint next. > Ken Schaal > CommonWealth Solar > > On Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 9:17 AM frenergy wrote: > >> This is a very timely discussion for us also as we have many >> Midnight MNPV6 discos in the sun. Though we're careful about tightening >> wire landings, using contact cleaner for the fuses and fuse holders, some >> installs seem to get hotter than others. We just started making a very >> simple sheet metal heat shield of sorts spaced away from the face of the >> disco for ventilation which keeps direct sun off the "face" of the disco. >> We don't paint this shield to give the galvanized surface a chance to >> reflect the IR. >> >> Its a retro which we've covered the cost for to prevent >> callbacks for blown (cooked?) fuses. I haven't done any before and after >> temp checks but I know from a long history of this kind of work that temps >> inside that disco will be substantially lower. They haven't been out in the >> field long enough to get any data. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net >> >> On 11/18/2020 5:13 PM, Ray wrote: >> >> What is the brand and model of the disconnect? Temp ratings of the >> terminals? I've definitely had fuse holders not make good contact with the >> fuses and burn the fuses at one end, instead of in the middle. Have you >> looked at it with a Thermal imaging camera when its operating to see if its >> hot on one end of the fuse? >> >> Second, depending on the temperature it would be hitting inside the >> enclosure in the sun, you could be exceeding the rating of the #6 >> conductor. Assuming terminals rated at 75C, then from 310.16, a #6 is >> rated 65 A, but derate for temperature of 114F inside the enclosure gets >> you to .82 x 65 = 53.3, which is a bit less than the 54.45 that Dave just >> calculated for continuous duty. >> >> What color is the disconnect painted? any chance of painting it white? >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 11/18/20 4:16 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> >> Jason, >> Bright sunny days, disconnect on the west side of house, maybe in the >> sun? 43.56A * 1.25 for continuous duty = 54.45A. If these disconnects are >> also baking in the sun, maybe the extra ambient heat is enough to push it >> over the edge? Just a thought. >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 10:40:27 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 08:40:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent fuse trippjng In-Reply-To: References: <51E3F257-8E76-467E-830B-D344A7545F47@gmail.com> <55ee31be-37ba-5a8e-4f3c-037b06605c9b@solarray.com> <24125d34-d02c-e531-892c-05bca6715308@psln.com> Message-ID: <89A359C2-FE36-4399-9B5C-2CE6650486AF@gmail.com> HI Jason, My experience with fuses is that like breakers when you run them at or near their max rating they get hot and are prone to failure. The added heat from environmental issues might be just enough to push it to failure. Given the good performance data from enphase you might be able to correlate production watts and ambient temperatures to find a pattern. Jay PS I haven’t researched enough to see if there are fuses rated for high heat and constant duty but that might be the answer if there are. > On Nov 19, 2020, at 3:25 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Very interesting, Jay. The Bussman curve I just looked up is very similar. > > If that is the sole issue then replacing the disconnect alone with an HD version may not solve the problem. The better corrective action may be increasing the fuse rating and the wire size accordingly. However, since this is a 60A disconnect fused at 60A, that would require going to a 100A disconnect. I suppose increasing one wire size to #4 and using 80A fuses in a 100A disconnect may do the trick. > > Now I'm conflicted. I don't know for certain whether direct sunlight is the primary issue since this happens on west walls under 18-inch eaves around 1:30pm (an hour after solar noon). My issue could still be a faulty or poorly designed switch. > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 1:51 PM jay > wrote: > I looked up on the eaton site and found this information. Page 6, its a temperature derate curve, which I think is your problem. > > In short, at 160F, for a slow blow fuse it is derated 20%. > At 176f its 25% derated. > > I couldn’t find any fuses that have a high temp rating. > > jay > > https://m.littelfuse.com/~/media/electrical/application-notes/powr-gard-technical-application-guide.pdf > > > >> On Nov 19, 2020, at 8:19 AM, Ken Schaal > wrote: >> >> From my experience with reflective roofs galvanized quickly ages becoming less reflective! White is best aluminum paint next. >> Ken Schaal >> CommonWealth Solar >> >> On Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 9:17 AM frenergy > wrote: >> This is a very timely discussion for us also as we have many Midnight MNPV6 discos in the sun. Though we're careful about tightening wire landings, using contact cleaner for the fuses and fuse holders, some installs seem to get hotter than others. We just started making a very simple sheet metal heat shield of sorts spaced away from the face of the disco for ventilation which keeps direct sun off the "face" of the disco. We don't paint this shield to give the galvanized surface a chance to reflect the IR. >> >> Its a retro which we've covered the cost for to prevent callbacks for blown (cooked?) fuses. I haven't done any before and after temp checks but I know from a long history of this kind of work that temps inside that disco will be substantially lower. They haven't been out in the field long enough to get any data. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> On 11/18/2020 5:13 PM, Ray wrote: >>> What is the brand and model of the disconnect? Temp ratings of the terminals? I've definitely had fuse holders not make good contact with the fuses and burn the fuses at one end, instead of in the middle. Have you looked at it with a Thermal imaging camera when its operating to see if its hot on one end of the fuse? >>> >>> Second, depending on the temperature it would be hitting inside the enclosure in the sun, you could be exceeding the rating of the #6 conductor. Assuming terminals rated at 75C, then from 310.16, a #6 is rated 65 A, but derate for temperature of 114F inside the enclosure gets you to .82 x 65 = 53.3, which is a bit less than the 54.45 that Dave just calculated for continuous duty. >>> >>> What color is the disconnect painted? any chance of painting it white? >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> On 11/18/20 4:16 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >>>> Jason, >>>> Bright sunny days, disconnect on the west side of house, maybe in the sun? 43.56A * 1.25 for continuous duty = 54.45A. If these disconnects are also baking in the sun, maybe the extra ambient heat is enough to push it over the edge? Just a thought. >>>> Cheers, >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> Dave Tedeyan, PE >>>> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >>>> >>>> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>>> o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 >>>> www.taitem.com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Nov 23 00:06:22 2020 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 21:06:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trimetric with Outback In-Reply-To: <89A359C2-FE36-4399-9B5C-2CE6650486AF@gmail.com> References: <51E3F257-8E76-467E-830B-D344A7545F47@gmail.com> <55ee31be-37ba-5a8e-4f3c-037b06605c9b@solarray.com> <24125d34-d02c-e531-892c-05bca6715308@psln.com> <89A359C2-FE36-4399-9B5C-2CE6650486AF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <230032a7-7fdb-f162-ea1e-adf5fd1ab5e5@psln.com> Wrenchers,             I tried asking OB about this, no response.  New FlexPwer2 installed in customer's basement, I like to keep the Mate with the system because the basement is my access point for future programming, troubleshooting, etc (rather than entering the house which many times is unoccupied)...no internet or cell service onsite.             To have some system status info in the house for the customer I would like to install a Trimetric 2030 upstairs.  This looks a bit tricky with three shunts in the DC enclosure to monitor various in/outputs for the FNDC to function and display info properly for the Mate.  Where-o-where might the sense wire be connected to properly measure *NET *amps flowing hither and fro to supply the correct info for the Trimetric?  The picture should help, the two cables coming off the bottom (right side) of shunt "B" are inverter negs. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OB FP2 shunts oic.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 495343 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 06:57:25 2020 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 04:57:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trimetric with Outback In-Reply-To: <230032a7-7fdb-f162-ea1e-adf5fd1ab5e5@psln.com> References: <51E3F257-8E76-467E-830B-D344A7545F47@gmail.com> <55ee31be-37ba-5a8e-4f3c-037b06605c9b@solarray.com> <24125d34-d02c-e531-892c-05bca6715308@psln.com> <89A359C2-FE36-4399-9B5C-2CE6650486AF@gmail.com> <230032a7-7fdb-f162-ea1e-adf5fd1ab5e5@psln.com> Message-ID: Bill -- I have "cooperatively attached" 2 different shunt monitoring devices to the same main (DC net -) shunt with no issues, for similar reasons (kitchen where client wanted a simple display is too far from shunts and Mate). The phrase is from the Midnite Whizbang Jr. manual, they supply a couple aluminum spacers for the other company's shunt sense wires so they don't short the WBJ board (the WBJ electronics mount on the shunt). As long as the ring terminals for the Trimetric sense wires can still lay flat while stacked on the FNDC sense ring terminals, you should be fine. I don't see why you couldn't use conductive spacers if the ring terminal barrels interfere with each other and won't lay flat. In my client's case, a second Mate for the kitchen was over twice the cost of a Trimetric without shunt, AND he can read the Trimetric from across the room because of the good ol' LEDs, not so with a Mate 3s. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 10:05 PM frenergy wrote: > Wrenchers, > > I tried asking OB about this, no response. New FlexPwer2 > installed in customer's basement, I like to keep the Mate with the system > because the basement is my access point for future programming, > troubleshooting, etc (rather than entering the house which many times is > unoccupied)...no internet or cell service onsite. > > To have some system status info in the house for the customer > I would like to install a Trimetric 2030 upstairs. This looks a bit tricky > with three shunts in the DC enclosure to monitor various in/outputs for the > FNDC to function and display info properly for the Mate. Where-o-where > might the sense wire be connected to properly measure *NET *amps flowing > hither and fro to supply the correct info for the Trimetric? The picture > should help, the two cables coming off the bottom (right side) of shunt "B" > are inverter negs. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > <#m_-5144937475846300048_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 08:55:09 2020 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 08:55:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trimetric with Outback In-Reply-To: <230032a7-7fdb-f162-ea1e-adf5fd1ab5e5@psln.com> References: <51E3F257-8E76-467E-830B-D344A7545F47@gmail.com> <55ee31be-37ba-5a8e-4f3c-037b06605c9b@solarray.com> <24125d34-d02c-e531-892c-05bca6715308@psln.com> <89A359C2-FE36-4399-9B5C-2CE6650486AF@gmail.com> <230032a7-7fdb-f162-ea1e-adf5fd1ab5e5@psln.com> Message-ID: Bill, I would just move the two solar negatives to the shunt B and attach the trimetric across shunt b. Shunt a and c are the two solar controllers and that info is already sent to the Mate 3 from the controllers via the HUB. I only use the FlexnetDC when I am trying to record other non outback devices such as an Iota charger or wind input and install another TriMetric to parse out that info for the customer in big red numbers. The customer will see net on the TriMetric and you can see the solar detail on the Mate 3. John Blittersdorf NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ CV Wind Service (and solar) 200 West Road N Chittenden, VT 05763 802-770-8625 www.offgridvermont.com On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 12:05 AM frenergy wrote: > Wrenchers, > > I tried asking OB about this, no response. New FlexPwer2 > installed in customer's basement, I like to keep the Mate with the system > because the basement is my access point for future programming, > troubleshooting, etc (rather than entering the house which many times is > unoccupied)...no internet or cell service onsite. > > To have some system status info in the house for the customer > I would like to install a Trimetric 2030 upstairs. This looks a bit tricky > with three shunts in the DC enclosure to monitor various in/outputs for the > FNDC to function and display info properly for the Mate. Where-o-where > might the sense wire be connected to properly measure *NET *amps flowing > hither and fro to supply the correct info for the Trimetric? The picture > should help, the two cables coming off the bottom (right side) of shunt "B" > are inverter negs. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > <#m_-7776470910317217737_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 08:57:12 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 06:57:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Frequency shift on AC coupled off grid resi system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Chris, I have no direct experience trying to troubleshoot devices that can't handle frequency shift, that seems hard to do. However, I might utilize a relay approach to solve it. You could use the relay functions in the Sunny Island to start dropping strings and/or inverters to keep the frequency shift from occurring in the first place. There is probably a more elegant way to do this, but it may work. I believe there is a way to keep frequency shift from happening in one of the many setpoints on the Sunny Island. I think this is a serious disadvantage of frequency shift to control PV output because so many devices are designed to work at a precise frequency. Good luck On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 8:09 AM Chris Anderson wrote: > Wrenches community, > > Hope folks are well out there. I am wondering if anyone has > experience addressing a frequency oscillation with a split phase off grid > Sunny Island system. I am working on an off grid home project with 2 units > that has just not worked right since installation. The small number of 240 > volt loads and most notably the geothermal heat pump goes into a loud > vibration as the frequency shifts and does so for 20 seconds, then settles > down into normal operation. 45 seconds later, it does it again and just > repeats itself until the water in the storage tank is up to temperature. > The current draw doubles when it is vibrating and it seems to drain the > batteries faster than expected when left on. > > Wondering if anyone out there has any thoughts or is experienced off grid > tech in New England interested in some troubleshooting work to help resolve > things. > > Please email me directly if possible at the following address - > canderson at borregosolar.com > > Thanks and stay safe out there. > -- > > Best, > > [image: Borrego Solar] > > *Chris Anderson* | Senior Vice President > > E: canderson at borregosolar.com | T: 978-513-2635 > <1-510-496-8721> | C: 603.732.2411 <1-510-496-8721> > > Borrego Solar Systems, Inc. > > 55 Technology Dr. #102, Lowell, MA 01851 > | www.borregosolar.com > [image: borrego solar facebook] > [image: borrego solar > youtube] [image: borrego > solar twitter] [image: borrego solar > linkedin] > > Cultivate Potential > > > The contents of this message may be privileged and confidential. > Therefore, if this message has been received in error, please delete it > without reading it. Your receipt of this message is not intended to waive > any applicable privilege. Please do not disseminate this message without > the permission of the sender. > > The sender of this email may be acting on behalf of an entity or entities > that are affiliated with Borrego Solar Systems, Inc. and that are involved > in the subject matter of this email (“Subject Entities”). The use of > “Borrego Solar Systems, Inc” in the contact information of the sender is > solely for information purposes and should not be construed to implicate > Borrego Solar Systems, Inc., or any of its other affiliates, for the > obligations and liabilities of the Subject Entities. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 09:15:33 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 07:15:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trimetric with Outback In-Reply-To: <230032a7-7fdb-f162-ea1e-adf5fd1ab5e5@psln.com> References: <230032a7-7fdb-f162-ea1e-adf5fd1ab5e5@psln.com> Message-ID: Hi Bill Because OB has all their shunts in parallel, no one shunt carries all of the current. Which assumes you are using 2 or 3 shunts for the monitoring. Therefore to use a trimetric you have to add a 4th shunt that carries full current. Jay > On Nov 22, 2020, at 10:05 PM, frenergy wrote: > >  > Wrenchers, > > I tried asking OB about this, no response. New FlexPwer2 installed in customer's basement, I like to keep the Mate with the system because the basement is my access point for future programming, troubleshooting, etc (rather than entering the house which many times is unoccupied)...no internet or cell service onsite. > > To have some system status info in the house for the customer I would like to install a Trimetric 2030 upstairs. This looks a bit tricky with three shunts in the DC enclosure to monitor various in/outputs for the FNDC to function and display info properly for the Mate. Where-o-where might the sense wire be connected to properly measure NET amps flowing hither and fro to supply the correct info for the Trimetric? The picture should help, the two cables coming off the bottom (right side) of shunt "B" are inverter negs. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Nov 23 11:15:44 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 11:15:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Frequency shift on AC coupled off grid resi system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9ec61832-b25e-7d46-6db8-b9417b93f50b@solarray.com> My advice would be to use a DC charge controller, and forget the frequency control/ AC coupled goofiness all together.  This has been covered ad nauseam in the past on the list.  Its just not a good idea off grid.  I occasionally will design large systems with some AC coupled array, but only enough to match the daytime AC loads.  Newer AC coupled systems with better communication between the inverters work better, but if frequency shifting is your main control, its just never going to work very well. Besides the issues you're having, you can add poor battery management and premature cell failures to the list, along with the unforgivable "Dark Start" when the batteries are discharged below the LBCO setting. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/23/20 8:57 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Chris, > > I have no direct experience trying to troubleshoot devices that can't > handle frequency shift, that seems hard to do. However, I might > utilize a relay approach to solve it.  You could use the relay > functions in the Sunny Island to start dropping strings and/or > inverters to keep the frequency shift from occurring in the first > place.  There is probably a more elegant way to do this, but it may > work.  I believe there is a way to keep frequency shift from happening > in one of the many setpoints on the Sunny Island.  I think this is a > serious disadvantage of frequency shift to control PV output because > so many devices are designed to work at a precise frequency. > > Good luck > > On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 8:09 AM Chris Anderson > > wrote: > > Wrenches community, > > Hope folks are well out there. I am wondering if anyone has > experience addressing a frequency oscillation with a split phase > off grid Sunny Island system. I am working on an off grid home > project with 2 units that has just not worked right since > installation. The small number of 240 volt loads and most notably > the geothermal heat pump goes into a loud vibration as the > frequency shifts and does so for 20 seconds, then settles down > into normal operation. 45 seconds later, it does it again and just > repeats itself until the water in the storage tank is up to > temperature. The current draw doubles when it is vibrating and it > seems to drain the batteries faster than expected when left on. > > Wondering if anyone out there has any thoughts or is experienced > off grid tech in New England interested in some troubleshooting > work to help resolve things. > > Please email me directly if possible at the following address - > canderson at borregosolar.com > > Thanks and stay safe out there. > -- > > Best, > > Borrego Solar > > *Chris Anderson* | Senior Vice President > > E: canderson at borregosolar.com > | T: 978-513-2635 | C: 603.732.2411 > > > Borrego Solar Systems, Inc. > > 55 Technology Dr. #102, Lowell, MA 01851 > | www.borregosolar.com > > > borrego solar facebook > borrego solar > youtube borrego solar > twitter borrego solar > linkedin > > Cultivate Potential > > > > The contents of this message may be privileged and confidential. > Therefore, if this message has been received in error, please > delete it without reading it. Your receipt of this message is not > intended to waive any applicable privilege. Please do not > disseminate this message without the permission of the sender. > > The sender of this email may be acting on behalf of an entity or > entities that are affiliated with Borrego Solar Systems, Inc. and > that are involved in the subject matter of this email (“Subject > Entities”). The use of “Borrego Solar Systems, Inc” in the contact > information of the sender is solely for information purposes and > should not be construed to implicate Borrego Solar Systems, Inc., > or any of its other affiliates, for the obligations and > liabilities of the Subject Entities. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamie.greenwired at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 11:26:27 2020 From: jamie.greenwired at gmail.com (Jamie Rennie) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 08:26:27 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commissioning issues with Enphase Ensemble In-Reply-To: References: <20201007092919.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.904ec31535.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Wrenches, Enphase Encharge debacle continues. Installed the USB extension device ( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073B84CY1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) Enphase field engineer's recommended week before last. Once installed had good com to all the units but only 5 of the 6 batteries were communicating. Tried unsuccessfully to provision the new battery several times with tech support. Got pretty upset with the tech who was requesting I do the same sequence of events I had been trying for the last two week with no results. Asked if they had someone locally who could look at the system. Enphase field engineer (Adam Rich) called me the next day and agreed to drive up from the Bay Area to take a look at the system. Met him on site on Friday last week, went through the same trouble shooting steps and was unsuccessful in provisioning the battery even though my phone and the Envoy could "see" the battery. He tried it on his phone and it worked so the only thing we could come up with is my phone was the issue. I have a Motorola X Pure from 2016 with Android 6.0 software, Adam was using an iphone, not sure which version. Looks like I need to buy a new phone to work on these systems... Sigh Later that evening I got a call from Adam and he found a separate issue with another battery. One of the microinverters on the battery was not working. Adam drove back over to the site that evening and tried to hot swap the inverter. Turns out it is a bad slot and the battery needs to be replaced. So looks like we are looking at another RMA for this system. Sharing this info with Wrenches in the hopes that it helps others evaluate these products as I have found value in the messages I have read here. I really like these new Enphase systems and stoked Enphase was kind enough to send someone out to look at our install. Seems like Enphase still has a bunch of stuff to work out on these new batteries, unfortunately we are the guinea pigs for this new technology. Hopefully our customer remains a good sport and doesn't ask us to take it all down... On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 7:28 AM Jamie Rennie wrote: > Wrenches, > > We just got through installing and commissioning our first Enphase system > with Empower Smart switch and 2 of the Encharge 10's. Commissioning took a > long time (over a week) and was really clunky with many calls to tech > support. Everytime we got past one issue we ran into something else that > needed to be resolved by an engineer. Most of it had to do with software > and communication between envoy and other components. Found one of the > batteries failed and we have replaced it. Now the batteries are not > communicating with the Envoy and waiting to hear back from tech support > about a solution for improving the communication between the Envoy, Empower > and Encharge Units (currently IQ Combiner with Envoy is installed on East > exterior wall near service and batteries are in the garage approx 60' > away). Sounds like Enphase does not have a repeater they recommend for > their system yet and there are known issues with weak comm between > batteries and Envoy. > > On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 10:07 AM wrote: > >> Thanks for that advice, Louis. Next time I will start the necessary >> downloads first. >> This week with a site visit from Enphase tech support we determined the >> Enpower switch was stuck in an unknown state. This was resolved >> successfully, and now the Enpower switch and Encharge batteries are >> commissioned and functional. Their status and power flow can be seen on >> Enlighten. >> During functional testing we determined that a major cause of the system >> going down when off-grid is that the well pump turn-on surge is too much >> for the two Encharge3 batteries. >> This issue should be able to be solved by a motor soft starter. Enphase >> recommends SureStart from Hyper Engineering. These are made for larger A/C >> units with access to separate fan and compressor windings so are not >> appropriate for this two-wire 3/4 hp well pump. >> Does anyone have a recommendation for a suitable soft start rated at >> something like 8 amps load, 16 amps surge? >> >> Don Barch >> Energy Solar >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Commissioning issues with Enphase Ensemble >> From: Louis Woofenden >> Date: Thu, October 01, 2020 3:54 pm >> To: don at energysolarnow.com >> >> >> Hi Don, >> >> I have commissioned four new Ensemble systems over the past two weeks. >> All storage additions to existing PV systems with Enphase microinverters. >> Although there are parts of the process that are a bit clunky, we have not >> had the problems you mention. I followed the instructions in the tech brief >> "Ensemble Commissioning via Installer Toolkit 3.0," linked at >> https://enphase.com/en-us/certification-support-program-guidelines >> (direct link to the PDF is >> https://enphase.com/sites/default/files/Tech%20Brief%20-%20Ensemble%20Commissioning%20via%20Installer%20Toolkit%203.0.pdf >> ). >> >> My experience is that each of the four Enpower microgrid interconnection >> devices we've installed started up in passthrough mode, so if input >> breakers are on in the MID, backup loads have had power before >> commissioning is completed, and power has remained on for those backup >> loads even after we turned off the PV and ESS disconnects to wait for >> utility PTO after doing commissioning and functional testing. >> >> It did take us some time to do the Envoy software update before >> commissioning, and the system does require a second trip for functional >> testing after the Encharge battery software updates have been done (up to >> 12 hours). I haven't stuck on site for the Encharge/Enpower software >> updates, but it looks like they are taking 4-6 hours for us, based on >> percentage done by the time I've left the site (system sizes from 10.08 kWh >> to 20.16 kWh). Yeah, it's a second trip. I've used the trip to meet with >> electrical inspectors for these first systems. >> >> One "trick" I've used on the Envoy software update is that you once you >> scan in the serial numbers of each Enpower & Encharge with the installer >> toolkit and plug in the cell modem and wireless communications kit, the >> installer toolkit will allow the Envoy software update to work, and you can >> get it taken care of early in the day, while still hanging boxes, running >> conduit, etc. >> >> I would agree that there are definitely parts of the new installer >> toolkit that aren't intuitive. I missed the "edit" button on the devices >> page for a bit (which is not mentioned in the tech brief), and couldn't >> figure out how to increase the device count, for example. I also had to try >> the Envoy update twice for some of these systems, as it threw an error code >> the first time around, so for some of the systems it took closer to 45-50 >> minutes to get the Envoy software update done. >> >> Hope the next one goes more smoothly for you! New products, new >> challenges, I guess. >> >> Best, >> >> Louis Woofenden >> >> >> don at energysolarnow.com wrote on 9/30/20 2:59 PM: >> >> Wrenches- >> I'm having a lot of difficulty commissioning my first Enphase Ensemble >> installation. This is on a pre-existing microinverter installation. Have >> been on the phone with tech support several times; each time they forward a >> Tech Brief about commissioning that has different and slightly conflicting >> instructions. It seems the order of turning on each box is critical. >> Because of already-obsolete software that they ship with, the software must >> be updated before activating the Envoy, Enpower, and Encharge or they will >> not work. >> And for some reason the Envoy must have both Wifi and cell connection >> before even starting commissioning, but the slower cell connection is used >> for software download so it takes up to 12 hours. >> This commissioning must be done on-site using their latest version of >> Installer Toolkit on a smart phone. Sure, there are buttons in Enlighten's >> Activation page to add an Enpower and Encharge, but these do not work >> "yet". >> Enphase tech support says they are working on making this a single-day >> process rather than the current multi-day commissioning. This does not even >> count the actual hardware installation time. >> >> I would advise anyone against moving any loads to a new subpanel before >> the entire system is commissioned and operating. >> As of now I have an Enpower that mistakenly thinks it is off-grid when >> the grid is present, so it has told the Envoy to shut down the PV >> microinverters and batteries. These are relay controlled, therefore it is >> not possible to have them connected without software control. It has >> already committed the major crime of shutting down the backed-up loads >> while the grid is still present. Enphase is working on it, but seem to be >> developing software on the fly. I suppose their integration process has >> been hit hard by pandemic distancing, and they are all working remotely. >> >> Has anyone else had a successful experience commissioning an Ensemble? >> I'd like to hear about the doos-and-don'ts. >> >> Don Barch >> don at energysolarnow.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -- >> -- >> Louis Woofenden >> Engineering Director >> Net Zero Solar, LLC >> 101. W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 >> Arizona ROC #248710, 259756, 259521 >> >> Phone: 520.207.4053 Ex. 3 >> Cell: 520.237.5040 >> Fax: 520.203.7230 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Respectfully, > > > Jamie Rennie > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 > C: 707-273-7387 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > > www.greenwired.com > > [image: Description: signature] > -- Respectfully, Jamie Rennie Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 C: 707-273-7387 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com [image: Description: signature] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Nov 24 06:42:21 2020 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel at entech-engineering.com) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 06:42:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commissioning issues with Enphase Ensemble In-Reply-To: References: <20201007092919.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.904ec31535.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <6d10bf5c7980f292d34da7b8e48a6f64@entech-engineering.com> Thanks for this, it is really helpful. Chris On 2020-11-23 11:26, Jamie Rennie wrote: > Wrenches, > > Enphase Encharge debacle continues. Installed the USB extension device (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073B84CY1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) Enphase field engineer's recommended week before last. Once installed had good com to all the units but only 5 of the 6 batteries were communicating. Tried unsuccessfully to provision the new battery several times with tech support. Got pretty upset with the tech who was requesting I do the same sequence of events I had been trying for the last two week with no results. Asked if they had someone locally who could look at the system. Enphase field engineer (Adam Rich) called me the next day and agreed to drive up from the Bay Area to take a look at the system. Met him on site on Friday last week, went through the same trouble shooting steps and was unsuccessful in provisioning the battery even though my phone and the Envoy could "see" the battery. He tried it on his phone and it worked so the only thing we could come up with is my phone was the issue. I have a Motorola X Pure from 2016 with Android 6.0 software, Adam was using an iphone, not sure which version. Looks like I need to buy a new phone to work on these systems... Sigh > > Later that evening I got a call from Adam and he found a separate issue with another battery. One of the microinverters on the battery was not working. Adam drove back over to the site that evening and tried to hot swap the inverter. Turns out it is a bad slot and the battery needs to be replaced. So looks like we are looking at another RMA for this system. Sharing this info with Wrenches in the hopes that it helps others evaluate these products as I have found value in the messages I have read here. I really like these new Enphase systems and stoked Enphase was kind enough to send someone out to look at our install. Seems like Enphase still has a bunch of stuff to work out on these new batteries, unfortunately we are the guinea pigs for this new technology. Hopefully our customer remains a good sport and doesn't ask us to take it all down... > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 7:28 AM Jamie Rennie wrote: > Wrenches, > > We just got through installing and commissioning our first Enphase system with Empower Smart switch and 2 of the Encharge 10's. Commissioning took a long time (over a week) and was really clunky with many calls to tech support. Everytime we got past one issue we ran into something else that needed to be resolved by an engineer. Most of it had to do with software and communication between envoy and other components. Found one of the batteries failed and we have replaced it. Now the batteries are not communicating with the Envoy and waiting to hear back from tech support about a solution for improving the communication between the Envoy, Empower and Encharge Units (currently IQ Combiner with Envoy is installed on East exterior wall near service and batteries are in the garage approx 60' away). Sounds like Enphase does not have a repeater they recommend for their system yet and there are known issues with weak comm between batteries and Envoy. > > On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 10:07 AM wrote: > > Thanks for that advice, Louis. Next time I will start the necessary downloads first. > This week with a site visit from Enphase tech support we determined the Enpower switch was stuck in an unknown state. This was resolved successfully, and now the Enpower switch and Encharge batteries are commissioned and functional. Their status and power flow can be seen on Enlighten. > During functional testing we determined that a major cause of the system going down when off-grid is that the well pump turn-on surge is too much for the two Encharge3 batteries. > This issue should be able to be solved by a motor soft starter. Enphase recommends SureStart from Hyper Engineering. These are made for larger A/C units with access to separate fan and compressor windings so are not appropriate for this two-wire 3/4 hp well pump. > Does anyone have a recommendation for a suitable soft start rated at something like 8 amps load, 16 amps surge? > > Don Barch > Energy Solar > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Commissioning issues with Enphase Ensemble > From: Louis Woofenden > Date: Thu, October 01, 2020 3:54 pm > To: don at energysolarnow.com > > Hi Don, > > I have commissioned four new Ensemble systems over the past two weeks. All storage additions to existing PV systems with Enphase microinverters. Although there are parts of the process that are a bit clunky, we have not had the problems you mention. I followed the instructions in the tech brief "Ensemble Commissioning via Installer Toolkit 3.0," linked at https://enphase.com/en-us/certification-support-program-guidelines (direct link to the PDF is https://enphase.com/sites/default/files/Tech%20Brief%20-%20Ensemble%20Commissioning%20via%20Installer%20Toolkit%203.0.pdf). > > My experience is that each of the four Enpower microgrid interconnection devices we've installed started up in passthrough mode, so if input breakers are on in the MID, backup loads have had power before commissioning is completed, and power has remained on for those backup loads even after we turned off the PV and ESS disconnects to wait for utility PTO after doing commissioning and functional testing. > > It did take us some time to do the Envoy software update before commissioning, and the system does require a second trip for functional testing after the Encharge battery software updates have been done (up to 12 hours). I haven't stuck on site for the Encharge/Enpower software updates, but it looks like they are taking 4-6 hours for us, based on percentage done by the time I've left the site (system sizes from 10.08 kWh to 20.16 kWh). Yeah, it's a second trip. I've used the trip to meet with electrical inspectors for these first systems. > > One "trick" I've used on the Envoy software update is that you once you scan in the serial numbers of each Enpower & Encharge with the installer toolkit and plug in the cell modem and wireless communications kit, the installer toolkit will allow the Envoy software update to work, and you can get it taken care of early in the day, while still hanging boxes, running conduit, etc. > > I would agree that there are definitely parts of the new installer toolkit that aren't intuitive. I missed the "edit" button on the devices page for a bit (which is not mentioned in the tech brief), and couldn't figure out how to increase the device count, for example. I also had to try the Envoy update twice for some of these systems, as it threw an error code the first time around, so for some of the systems it took closer to 45-50 minutes to get the Envoy software update done. > > Hope the next one goes more smoothly for you! New products, new challenges, I guess. > > Best, > > Louis Woofenden > > don at energysolarnow.com wrote on 9/30/20 2:59 PM: > > Wrenches- > I'm having a lot of difficulty commissioning my first Enphase Ensemble installation. This is on a pre-existing microinverter installation. Have been on the phone with tech support several times; each time they forward a Tech Brief about commissioning that has different and slightly conflicting instructions. It seems the order of turning on each box is critical. Because of already-obsolete software that they ship with, the software must be updated before activating the Envoy, Enpower, and Encharge or they will not work. > And for some reason the Envoy must have both Wifi and cell connection before even starting commissioning, but the slower cell connection is used for software download so it takes up to 12 hours. > This commissioning must be done on-site using their latest version of Installer Toolkit on a smart phone. Sure, there are buttons in Enlighten's Activation page to add an Enpower and Encharge, but these do not work "yet". > Enphase tech support says they are working on making this a single-day process rather than the current multi-day commissioning. This does not even count the actual hardware installation time. > > I would advise anyone against moving any loads to a new subpanel before the entire system is commissioned and operating. > As of now I have an Enpower that mistakenly thinks it is off-grid when the grid is present, so it has told the Envoy to shut down the PV microinverters and batteries. These are relay controlled, therefore it is not possible to have them connected without software control. It has already committed the major crime of shutting down the backed-up loads while the grid is still present. Enphase is working on it, but seem to be developing software on the fly. I suppose their integration process has been hit hard by pandemic distancing, and they are all working remotely. > > Has anyone else had a successful experience commissioning an Ensemble? > I'd like to hear about the doos-and-don'ts. > > Don Barch > don at energysolarnow.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > -- > > Louis Woofenden > Engineering Director > Net Zero Solar, LLC > 101. W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 > Arizona ROC #248710, 259756, 259521 > > Phone: 520.207.4053 [1] Ex. 3 > Cell: 520.237.5040 [2] > Fax: 520.203.7230 [3] > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional(tm) _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Respectfully, Jamie Rennie Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 [4] C: 707-273-7387 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com [5] -- Respectfully, Jamie Rennie Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 [4] C: 707-273-7387 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com [5] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] tel:520.207.4053 [2] tel:520.237.5040 [3] tel:520.203.7230 [4] tel:707-923-2001 [5] http://www.greenwired.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Tue Nov 24 08:43:43 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 08:43:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commissioning issues with Enphase Ensemble In-Reply-To: <6d10bf5c7980f292d34da7b8e48a6f64@entech-engineering.com> References: <20201007092919.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.904ec31535.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> <6d10bf5c7980f292d34da7b8e48a6f64@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <089CBA92-A7AD-4DD0-89A2-C7B83746876D@swnl.net> Once again we the installers are “guinea pigs”. Lost opportunity costs born by the installer believing that the components, we are selling & installing are ready for prime time. Must be nice to have a “Tech” drive to Humboldt, we here in Maine aren’t that lucky. > On Nov 24, 2020, at 6:42 AM, cwarfel at entech-engineering.com wrote: > > Thanks for this, it is really helpful. Chris > > > > > On 2020-11-23 11:26, Jamie Rennie wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> Enphase Encharge debacle continues. Installed the USB extension device (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073B84CY1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 ) Enphase field engineer's recommended week before last. Once installed had good com to all the units but only 5 of the 6 batteries were communicating. Tried unsuccessfully to provision the new battery several times with tech support. Got pretty upset with the tech who was requesting I do the same sequence of events I had been trying for the last two week with no results. Asked if they had someone locally who could look at the system. Enphase field engineer (Adam Rich) called me the next day and agreed to drive up from the Bay Area to take a look at the system. Met him on site on Friday last week, went through the same trouble shooting steps and was unsuccessful in provisioning the battery even though my phone and the Envoy could "see" the battery. He tried it on his phone and it worked so the only thing we could come up with is my phone was the issue. I have a Motorola X Pure from 2016 with Android 6.0 software, Adam was using an iphone, not sure which version. Looks like I need to buy a new phone to work on these systems... Sigh >> >> Later that evening I got a call from Adam and he found a separate issue with another battery. One of the microinverters on the battery was not working. Adam drove back over to the site that evening and tried to hot swap the inverter. Turns out it is a bad slot and the battery needs to be replaced. So looks like we are looking at another RMA for this system. Sharing this info with Wrenches in the hopes that it helps others evaluate these products as I have found value in the messages I have read here. I really like these new Enphase systems and stoked Enphase was kind enough to send someone out to look at our install. Seems like Enphase still has a bunch of stuff to work out on these new batteries, unfortunately we are the guinea pigs for this new technology. Hopefully our customer remains a good sport and doesn't ask us to take it all down... >> >> On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 7:28 AM Jamie Rennie > wrote: >> Wrenches, >> >> We just got through installing and commissioning our first Enphase system with Empower Smart switch and 2 of the Encharge 10's. Commissioning took a long time (over a week) and was really clunky with many calls to tech support. Everytime we got past one issue we ran into something else that needed to be resolved by an engineer. Most of it had to do with software and communication between envoy and other components. Found one of the batteries failed and we have replaced it. Now the batteries are not communicating with the Envoy and waiting to hear back from tech support about a solution for improving the communication between the Envoy, Empower and Encharge Units (currently IQ Combiner with Envoy is installed on East exterior wall near service and batteries are in the garage approx 60' away). Sounds like Enphase does not have a repeater they recommend for their system yet and there are known issues with weak comm between batteries and Envoy. >> >> On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 10:07 AM > wrote: >> Thanks for that advice, Louis. Next time I will start the necessary downloads first. >> This week with a site visit from Enphase tech support we determined the Enpower switch was stuck in an unknown state. This was resolved successfully, and now the Enpower switch and Encharge batteries are commissioned and functional. Their status and power flow can be seen on Enlighten. >> During functional testing we determined that a major cause of the system going down when off-grid is that the well pump turn-on surge is too much for the two Encharge3 batteries. >> This issue should be able to be solved by a motor soft starter. Enphase recommends SureStart from Hyper Engineering. These are made for larger A/C units with access to separate fan and compressor windings so are not appropriate for this two-wire 3/4 hp well pump. >> Does anyone have a recommendation for a suitable soft start rated at something like 8 amps load, 16 amps surge? >> >> Don Barch >> Energy Solar >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Commissioning issues with Enphase Ensemble >> From: Louis Woofenden > >> Date: Thu, October 01, 2020 3:54 pm >> To: don at energysolarnow.com >> >> >> Hi Don, >> >> I have commissioned four new Ensemble systems over the past two weeks. All storage additions to existing PV systems with Enphase microinverters. Although there are parts of the process that are a bit clunky, we have not had the problems you mention. I followed the instructions in the tech brief "Ensemble Commissioning via Installer Toolkit 3.0," linked at https://enphase.com/en-us/certification-support-program-guidelines (direct link to the PDF is https://enphase.com/sites/default/files/Tech%20Brief%20-%20Ensemble%20Commissioning%20via%20Installer%20Toolkit%203.0.pdf ). >> >> My experience is that each of the four Enpower microgrid interconnection devices we've installed started up in passthrough mode, so if input breakers are on in the MID, backup loads have had power before commissioning is completed, and power has remained on for those backup loads even after we turned off the PV and ESS disconnects to wait for utility PTO after doing commissioning and functional testing. >> >> It did take us some time to do the Envoy software update before commissioning, and the system does require a second trip for functional testing after the Encharge battery software updates have been done (up to 12 hours). I haven't stuck on site for the Encharge/Enpower software updates, but it looks like they are taking 4-6 hours for us, based on percentage done by the time I've left the site (system sizes from 10.08 kWh to 20.16 kWh). Yeah, it's a second trip. I've used the trip to meet with electrical inspectors for these first systems. >> >> One "trick" I've used on the Envoy software update is that you once you scan in the serial numbers of each Enpower & Encharge with the installer toolkit and plug in the cell modem and wireless communications kit, the installer toolkit will allow the Envoy software update to work, and you can get it taken care of early in the day, while still hanging boxes, running conduit, etc. >> >> I would agree that there are definitely parts of the new installer toolkit that aren't intuitive. I missed the "edit" button on the devices page for a bit (which is not mentioned in the tech brief), and couldn't figure out how to increase the device count, for example. I also had to try the Envoy update twice for some of these systems, as it threw an error code the first time around, so for some of the systems it took closer to 45-50 minutes to get the Envoy software update done. >> >> Hope the next one goes more smoothly for you! New products, new challenges, I guess. >> >> Best, >> >> Louis Woofenden >> >> >> don at energysolarnow.com wrote on 9/30/20 2:59 PM: >>> Wrenches- >>> I'm having a lot of difficulty commissioning my first Enphase Ensemble installation. This is on a pre-existing microinverter installation. Have been on the phone with tech support several times; each time they forward a Tech Brief about commissioning that has different and slightly conflicting instructions. It seems the order of turning on each box is critical. Because of already-obsolete software that they ship with, the software must be updated before activating the Envoy, Enpower, and Encharge or they will not work. >>> And for some reason the Envoy must have both Wifi and cell connection before even starting commissioning, but the slower cell connection is used for software download so it takes up to 12 hours. >>> This commissioning must be done on-site using their latest version of Installer Toolkit on a smart phone. Sure, there are buttons in Enlighten's Activation page to add an Enpower and Encharge, but these do not work "yet". >>> Enphase tech support says they are working on making this a single-day process rather than the current multi-day commissioning. This does not even count the actual hardware installation time. >>> >>> I would advise anyone against moving any loads to a new subpanel before the entire system is commissioned and operating. >>> As of now I have an Enpower that mistakenly thinks it is off-grid when the grid is present, so it has told the Envoy to shut down the PV microinverters and batteries. These are relay controlled, therefore it is not possible to have them connected without software control. It has already committed the major crime of shutting down the backed-up loads while the grid is still present. Enphase is working on it, but seem to be developing software on the fly. I suppose their integration process has been hit hard by pandemic distancing, and they are all working remotely. >>> >>> Has anyone else had a successful experience commissioning an Ensemble? >>> I'd like to hear about the doos-and-don'ts. >>> >>> Don Barch >>> don at energysolarnow.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> -- >> -- >> Louis Woofenden >> Engineering Director >> Net Zero Solar, LLC >> 101. W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 >> Arizona ROC #248710, 259756, 259521 >> >> Phone: 520.207.4053 Ex. 3 >> Cell: 520.237.5040 >> Fax: 520.203.7230 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -- >> Respectfully, >> >> Jamie Rennie >> Greenwired >> P: 707-923-2001 C: 707-273-7387 >> 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd >> Redway, CA 95560 >> www.greenwired.com >> >> >> -- >> Respectfully, >> >> Jamie Rennie >> Greenwired >> P: 707-923-2001 C: 707-273-7387 >> 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd >> Redway, CA 95560 >> www.greenwired.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Tue Nov 24 11:06:19 2020 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 08:06:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off topic items (was Re: Commissioning issues with Enphase Ensemble) In-Reply-To: <6d10bf5c7980f292d34da7b8e48a6f64@entech-engineering.com> References: <20201007092919.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.904ec31535.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> <6d10bf5c7980f292d34da7b8e48a6f64@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <1606230385571.434fe8d26c03f5c9@re-wrenches.org> cwarfel at entech-engineering.com wrote at 03:42 AM 11/24/2020: >Thanks for this, it is really helpful. Chris Hi there. Just a reminder to not post off topic items. 1. Don't post jokes, thanks, apologies, agreements, news items, chit-chat, events, politics, marketing, virus info, leads, jobs, items for sale, or anything else that is off-topic. 2. Don't respond on-list to others' off topic posts. 3. Don't post items that are available for sale, either from you or from others. 3a. From time to time people post items that they need but are having problems locating (like an older model PV module to replace a broken one), but these requests should be responded to off-list. And these requests should state within them, something like: "if you have one, please contact me off list." 4. If you have a message that is intended for individuals who are on the list, like "thanks" or "yes, I have one of those things you are looking for," don't send it to the whole list -- just send it to the individuals. 5. Do not post administrative inquiries, but rather send them to me off-list. 6. And finally, a reminder to never post leads or job openings of any kind on the list. Thank-you. [The RE-Wrenches listserver and other associated lists are managed by Michael Welch, through Redwood Alliance, a nonprofit energy-related environmental organization.] From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 13:10:53 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 11:10:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24-12v converter Message-ID: Hi All, Any recommendations for a small 5 amp or less at 12v 24v to 12v dc to dc converter? There are many inexpensive ones out there but just checking to see if anyone has info on better ones: high efficiency and reliability thanks jay peltz power From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Tue Nov 24 13:40:52 2020 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (petertor@pobox.com) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 10:40:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter Placement Message-ID: <734325228.429099.1606243252637@mailbusiness.ionos.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 100561 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matt at getpimby.com Tue Nov 24 15:23:07 2020 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matthew Sherald) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 15:23:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24-12v converter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99495312-8198-42E0-B658-979ECC7611BD@getpimby.com> Samlex has worked well for me. I also have a 48-24V Meanwell that has held up well in an exterior cabinet. -Matt Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 24, 2020, at 1:10 PM, jay wrote: > > Hi All, > > Any recommendations for a small 5 amp or less at 12v > > 24v to 12v dc to dc converter? > > There are many inexpensive ones out there but just checking to see if anyone has info on better ones: high efficiency and reliability > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Tue Nov 24 15:47:21 2020 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 15:47:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Direct sales- Sol-Ark Message-ID: <3F775A02-7B19-459E-8213-DBB866953B73@sunwindpowerinc.com> While I have heard a lot of good comments re: Sol-Ark on this forum, we have not yet used them for our installs. I have been considering trying them on a test system in our shop, but something just came across my email in the form of a NABCEP referral that gives me considerable pause. I’ll just paste the text and remove the contact info and await responses: “ I am in the process of purchasing a solar array with battery back up from sol-ark. I am looking to get a quote and arrange for someone to install/connect the array. Thank you, name removed” Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Nov 24 15:48:15 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 15:48:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter Placement In-Reply-To: <734325228.429099.1606243252637@mailbusiness.ionos.com> References: <734325228.429099.1606243252637@mailbusiness.ionos.com> Message-ID: Are they maybe talking about 690.31 that states that circuits over 30V in readily accessible locations need to be guarded? I can't tell if the conductors from the modules to the inverter are in a raceway from your picture. If so, the guarding requirements they are referring to may be 110.27(A)(4)(b). However, I think 110.27(B) would be more important in a carport situation, in which case your suggestion to place inverters as high as practical seems like the prudent option. On the other hand, the Guarding of Live Parts section is for the protection of persons specifically. Common sense would dictate that you want inverters out of the reach of typical vehicles that would use the parking facility or have them adequately protected. I see the desire to get them up as high as possible. Ultimately, if they are going to be placed up high and require portable ladders or lifts for service, what's the difference between 8 feet and 16 feet? It's not much harder to install or service at the higher height. On the flip side, cost be damned, I won't specify anything but microinverters or MLPE that isolates module DC output on a carport due to an uncontrolled smoldering fire I was called to help with. The DC combiners were not readily accessible, and even with the fire department's ladder set up for me to help to shut them down, it doesn't stop the DC current from flowing as wires melt together. There are just too many ways DC conductor strings can be damaged in a carport situation. At a minimum, I think there should be a readily accessible DC disconnecting means for each string to compartmentalize shorted conductors to the extent possible, and the quantity of DC conductors bundled together should be minimized. That's just my design theory. I realize that cost is important and DC systems are safe in theory... but why take the risk? I have no problem convincing consumers to spend the extra $ on micros once I tell my story. Plus, the cost difference is much less when warranty is considered. Anyway, another debate for another day. I don't mean to get too far off-topic. My point is that height is not necessarily safer in this case. A readily accessible means of DC disconnect might be a good idea. Jason Szumlanski On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 2:48 PM petertor at pobox.com < peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: > I am providing consulting services to a school district in Southern > California, and I came up with an issue regarding the placement of > inverters. > > These are PV arrays are "solar carports" and the inverters (usually 60 > kW-class) are mounted on columns. The advice I have given the School > District is to stipulate in the contract with the EPC company that these > inverters should be "placed as high as practical" on the columns. Their > counter-offer was to cite a section of the NEC 2017 that places a minimum > height above grade (parking lot asphalt). > > But they have failed to do so, as of this morning. > > I remember that the NEC code distinguished between secure locations (e.g. > switch gear in a closet under lock and key) and locations accessible to the > general public. > > > > My case would be the latter. The above photo shows placement lower than > "practical" IMHO. > > Any help with a citation in the 12017 NEC Handbook would be appreciated. > > - Peter > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > President, California Solar Engineering > 1107 Fair Oaks Blvd Ste. 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 100561 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Nov 24 16:05:17 2020 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 16:05:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Direct sales- Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <3F775A02-7B19-459E-8213-DBB866953B73@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <3F775A02-7B19-459E-8213-DBB866953B73@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: Consumers can buy a Sol-Ark prewired inverter from AltE (among other brands). That is probably what this person is referring to - not buying direct from Sol-Ark, but an online wholesaler. I see these kinds of requests frequently. If Sol-Ark is doing direct sales, that would be a strange decision. That said, I think everyone just needs to make a decision whether they will install components purchased elsewhere and stick to it. I decided long ago that I would consult on DIY projects but not offer up labor or my license to help people who want to save a few bucks. And consulting gigs are not a perpetual offer to provide middle of the night help when the lights go dark. What usually happens is consumers hire Joe the Electrician to install things after they get my rates. Then they get in over their head and call me in desperation. Ugh. Jason Szumlanski On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 3:47 PM Jeremy Coxon wrote: > While I have heard a lot of good comments re: Sol-Ark on this forum, we > have not yet used them for our installs. I have been considering trying > them on a test system in our shop, but something just came across my email > in the form of a NABCEP referral that gives me considerable pause. I’ll > just paste the text and remove the contact info and await responses: > > “ I am in the process of purchasing a solar array with battery back up > from sol-ark. I am looking to get a quote and arrange for someone to > install/connect the array. Thank you, name removed” > > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP > Certified MWBE > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 16:30:52 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 13:30:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter Placement In-Reply-To: <734325228.429099.1606243252637@mailbusiness.ionos.com> References: <734325228.429099.1606243252637@mailbusiness.ionos.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Every car canopy l have done has inverters up high even the SMA core 50's unless we are going with a large string inverter then caged on the ground. Jerry On Tue, Nov 24, 2020, 12:28 PM petertor at pobox.com < peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: > I am providing consulting services to a school district in Southern > California, and I came up with an issue regarding the placement of > inverters. > > These are PV arrays are "solar carports" and the inverters (usually 60 > kW-class) are mounted on columns. The advice I have given the School > District is to stipulate in the contract with the EPC company that these > inverters should be "placed as high as practical" on the columns. Their > counter-offer was to cite a section of the NEC 2017 that places a minimum > height above grade (parking lot asphalt). > > But they have failed to do so, as of this morning. > > I remember that the NEC code distinguished between secure locations (e.g. > switch gear in a closet under lock and key) and locations accessible to the > general public. > > > > My case would be the latter. The above photo shows placement lower than > "practical" IMHO. > > Any help with a citation in the 12017 NEC Handbook would be appreciated. > > - Peter > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > President, California Solar Engineering > 1107 Fair Oaks Blvd Ste. 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 100561 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 100561 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Nov 24 17:20:17 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 14:20:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24-12v converter In-Reply-To: <99495312-8198-42E0-B658-979ECC7611BD@getpimby.com> References: <99495312-8198-42E0-B658-979ECC7611BD@getpimby.com> Message-ID: a solar panel and a 12v deep cycle from Costco. Three year no questions warranty. Hard to beat for reliability compared to the junk out there. Gobble gobble! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 15:23:07 -0500, Matthew Sherald wrote: > Samlex has worked well for me. > I also have a 48-24V Meanwell that has held up well in an exterior > cabinet. > > -Matt > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 24, 2020, at 1:10 PM, jay wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> Any recommendations for a small 5 amp or less at 12v >> >> 24v to 12v dc to dc converter? >> >> There are many inexpensive ones out there but just checking to see if >> anyone has info on better ones: high efficiency and reliability >> >> thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Nov 24 17:29:02 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 14:29:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Direct sales- Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: <3F775A02-7B19-459E-8213-DBB866953B73@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: <7fbdea51363e50850767d776b5febb94@127.0.0.1> I stay with the devils I know. Schneider and Outback have been great to me. Even a nice shiny new 100 amp 600vdc controller last month! Love it ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 16:05:17 -0500, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Consumers can buy a Sol-Ark prewired inverter from AltE (among other brands). That is probably what this person is referring to - not buying direct from Sol-Ark, but an online wholesaler. I see these kinds of requests frequently. If Sol-Ark is doing direct sales, that would be a strange decision. That said, I think everyone just needs to make a decision whether they will install components purchased elsewhere and stick to it. I decided long ago that I would consult on DIY projects but not offer up labor or my license to help people who want to save a few bucks. And consulting gigs are not a perpetual offer to provide middle of the night help when the lights go dark. What usually happens is consumers hire Joe the Electrician to install things after they get my rates. Then they get in over their head and call me in desperation. Ugh. Jason Szumlanski On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 3:47 PM Jeremy Coxon wrote: While I have heard a lot of good comments re: Sol-Ark on this forum, we have not yet used them for our installs. I have been considering trying them on a test system in our shop, but something just came across my email in the form of a NABCEP referral that gives me considerable pause. I'll just paste the text and remove the contact info and await responses: " I am in the process of purchasing a solar array with battery back up from sol-ark. I am looking to get a quote and arrange for someone to install/connect the array. Thank you, name removed" Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] List rules " src="https://webmail.sti.net/tuxedo/program/blocked.gif" alt="" width="0" height="0" /> Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com [4] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/d7ecb536307a625e3dca0a330f1c6944b7984658?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=cc50368efe366b5b [6] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/17481192161e9168e0a319ceb01bc972fcc16c13?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2F&userId=1613865&signature=674f8c45f4a33162 [7] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/668d171ec92a60836ccfed3e758a7f35eb421fc8?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=95d10b12c4155610 [8] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/24e8f10c1357a087ecbcc5ec3bb340c8fe331bf2?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=f68c2d98eb65f3bd [9] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/57d79341e09b5767cec5658556c66ceec331a4ac?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=130dace80c457df6 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Tue Nov 24 18:22:51 2020 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 16:22:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24-12v converter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <951EED8E-0BE6-4696-9310-5A90DCB3330C@sindelarsolar.com> I have used several Meanwells and all have worked without fail. Watts in used Meanwells in the step-down converters for their trackers years ago and I never saw one of them fail either. IMHO, no thanks to adding another battery and panel; this approach is simpler and is maintenance free indefinitely. Allan > On Nov 24, 2020, at 3:20 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > a solar panel and a 12v deep cycle from Costco. Three year no questions > warranty. Hard to beat for reliability compared to the junk out there. > Gobble gobble! > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > >> On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 15:23:07 -0500, Matthew Sherald >> wrote: >> Samlex has worked well for me. >> I also have a 48-24V Meanwell that has held up well in an exterior >> cabinet. >> >> -Matt >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> On Nov 24, 2020, at 1:10 PM, jay wrote: >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> Any recommendations for a small 5 amp or less at 12v >>> >>> 24v to 12v dc to dc converter? >>> >>> There are many inexpensive ones out there but just checking to see if >>> anyone has info on better ones: high efficiency and reliability >>> >>> thanks >>> >>> jay >>> >>> peltz power >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Wed Nov 25 01:41:55 2020 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 01:41:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Direct sales- Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <7fbdea51363e50850767d776b5febb94@127.0.0.1> References: <7fbdea51363e50850767d776b5febb94@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: I’m with ya on that. These days, I can’t really be a testing ground... It’s going to be especially hard to stay in business if there are direct selling manufactures, or distributors for that matter. I saw this exact thing happen to a close friend in the plumbing trade. End result wasn’t good for either party. Slippery slope is all I see. OK, off my soapbox. Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 24, 2020, at 5:29 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > >  > I stay with the devils I know. Schneider and Outback have been great to me. Even a nice shiny new 100 amp 600vdc controller last month! Love it ! > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 >> On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 16:05:17 -0500, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> >> >> Consumers can buy a Sol-Ark prewired inverter from AltE (among other brands). That is probably what this person is referring to - not buying direct from Sol-Ark, but an online wholesaler. I see these kinds of requests frequently. If Sol-Ark is doing direct sales, that would be a strange decision. >> >> That said, I think everyone just needs to make a decision whether they will install components purchased elsewhere and stick to it. I decided long ago that I would consult on DIY projects but not offer up labor or my license to help people who want to save a few bucks. And consulting gigs are not a perpetual offer to provide middle of the night help when the lights go dark. What usually happens is consumers hire Joe the Electrician to install things after they get my rates. Then they get in over their head and call me in desperation. Ugh. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> >>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 3:47 PM Jeremy Coxon wrote: >>> While I have heard a lot of good comments re: Sol-Ark on this forum, we have not yet used them for our installs. I have been considering trying them on a test system in our shop, but something just came across my email in the form of a NABCEP referral that gives me considerable pause. I'll just paste the text and remove the contact info and await responses: >>> >>> " I am in the process of purchasing a solar array with battery back up from sol-ark. I am looking to get a quote and arrange for someone to install/connect the array. Thank you, name removed" >>> >>> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP >>> Certified MWBE >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 09:12:09 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 07:12:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24-12v converter In-Reply-To: <951EED8E-0BE6-4696-9310-5A90DCB3330C@sindelarsolar.com> References: <951EED8E-0BE6-4696-9310-5A90DCB3330C@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <507D7900-EB03-4576-BF11-D139971370D7@gmail.com> I ended up finding a Victron on sale. Good brand, easy installation and real warranty. Appreciate all the recommendations. Jay > On Nov 24, 2020, at 4:22 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > I have used several Meanwells and all have worked without fail. Watts in used Meanwells in the step-down converters for their trackers years ago and I never saw one of them fail either. > IMHO, no thanks to adding another battery and panel; this approach is simpler and is maintenance free indefinitely. > Allan > >> On Nov 24, 2020, at 3:20 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> >> a solar panel and a 12v deep cycle from Costco. Three year no questions >> warranty. Hard to beat for reliability compared to the junk out there. >> Gobble gobble! >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >>> On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 15:23:07 -0500, Matthew Sherald >>> wrote: >>> Samlex has worked well for me. >>> I also have a 48-24V Meanwell that has held up well in an exterior >>> cabinet. >>> >>> -Matt >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>>>> On Nov 24, 2020, at 1:10 PM, jay wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> >>>>> Any recommendations for a small 5 amp or less at 12v >>>>> >>>>> 24v to 12v dc to dc converter? >>>>> >>>>> There are many inexpensive ones out there but just checking to see if >>>>> anyone has info on better ones: high efficiency and reliability >>>>> >>>>> thanks >>>>> >>>>> jay >>>>> >>>>> peltz power >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the >>> other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Nov 25 14:40:41 2020 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 14:40:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] THD Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, How much total harmonic distortion is acceptable for a generator feeding an inverter, house loads, etc. I'm looking at one that advertises less than 6%. From what I've been able to find on the internet, inverter generators are 3 to 5%. Does this jive with your experience? Does less than 6% seem like a good THD number? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC athens-electric.com -- From jay at nunatakenergy.com Sun Nov 29 09:46:24 2020 From: jay at nunatakenergy.com (Jay Pozner) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 07:46:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW Wind whisper controller troubleshooting Message-ID: Hello Wrenches I am challenged recently troubleshooting a Southwest wind whisper controller. It is of the type with a brake toggle switch on the top, and a green and red light indicating charging and braking modes, with a dump load integrated in the unit itself. The optional display we swapped from the original controller. The wind machine is a whisper 100. I noticed the controller was bad during a battery swap. The suspicion was a lightning strike, as a surge arrestor was blown, and the boards front side was cooked. Because of COVID the clients’ budget was really tight the cheapest solution was to replace a like for like used controller which I found from a respected installer who pulled it from a previously working system. The system itself I inherited from an installer who’s work I have been fixing for years, and who’s craftsmanship has proven questionable over and over again. In replacing the new controller, we were extremely careful to perform all test and procedures found in the manual to ensure the new controller wasn’t subject to some malfunction that had cooked the first. We verified the switch positions for 24V on the circuit board and the dump load was wired correctly as well. The AC input resistance and voltage were within reason, and the conductors tested out on the megger as well. That said the associated manual is not very detailed, and the condition that we are dealing with now is that when connected, the newer controller has both the red brake light and the green charging light illuminated on top of the unit and the break is engaged regardless of the position of the brake toggle switch. There are no details in the manual describing this condition. We tried power cycling the unit by disconnecting the battery, and we also tried the reset button on the power board multiple times. The manual goes on to state after repeated attempts using the reset button with no result to contact SWW technical support. I tested the unit on the bench power supply as well. While occasionally on start-up I might get a quick light sequence it always reverts to the same state as mentioned before with the brake engaged and lights on. In the interest of trying to be somewhat concise I did find some strange anomalies during this fun adventure, but for now, the questions I have for you all is if you ever have seen this condition and what might have caused it? Is there a special reset procedure SW Wind had up its sleeve if the reset button didn’t work as stated in their manual? While I completely respect where the original controller came from, could it have been failed out of the box if by chance during their decommissioning the disconnection from either the AC or DC inadvertently happened inversely? More likely though is there a sleeping problem I missed that could have subjected the newer controller to the same issue as the first? If the resistance and voltage test on the incoming AC side prove in spec, can I rule out our issue is coming from the tower side, or is there anything else I can examine? I’ve searched for white papers and called around a fair amount but haven’t found much direction. Anything you all could pass on would greatly be appreciated. Jay Pozner (970) 642-5554 www.nunatakenergy.com NABCEP Certified PV Installer: Cert.#031310-177 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Sun Nov 29 18:07:22 2020 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 18:07:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] W Wind whisper controller troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Have you tried contacting Primus (https://www.primuswindpower.com ). They did have parts for Whisper turbines. I have a new Whisper 200 sitting on a shelf in my warehouse that needs blades and controller. I contacted Primus a few years back and they had all the stuff I needed to make this a complete kit, but I don’t have a customer that wants it. So, it’s just sitting there... Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 Vice President MWBE Certified On Nov 29, 2020, at 5:50 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org You can reach the person managing the list at re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. Today's Topics: 1. SW Wind whisper controller troubleshooting (Jay Pozner) From: Jay Pozner Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW Wind whisper controller troubleshooting Date: November 29, 2020 at 9:46:24 AM EST To: RE-wrenches Hello Wrenches I am challenged recently troubleshooting a Southwest wind whisper controller. It is of the type with a brake toggle switch on the top, and a green and red light indicating charging and braking modes, with a dump load integrated in the unit itself. The optional display we swapped from the original controller. The wind machine is a whisper 100. I noticed the controller was bad during a battery swap. The suspicion was a lightning strike, as a surge arrestor was blown, and the boards front side was cooked. Because of COVID the clients’ budget was really tight the cheapest solution was to replace a like for like used controller which I found from a respected installer who pulled it from a previously working system. The system itself I inherited from an installer who’s work I have been fixing for years, and who’s craftsmanship has proven questionable over and over again. In replacing the new controller, we were extremely careful to perform all test and procedures found in the manual to ensure the new controller wasn’t subject to some malfunction that had cooked the first. We verified the switch positions for 24V on the circuit board and the dump load was wired correctly as well. The AC input resistance and voltage were within reason, and the conductors tested out on the megger as well. That said the associated manual is not very detailed, and the condition that we are dealing with now is that when connected, the newer controller has both the red brake light and the green charging light illuminated on top of the unit and the break is engaged regardless of the position of the brake toggle switch. There are no details in the manual describing this condition. We tried power cycling the unit by disconnecting the battery, and we also tried the reset button on the power board multiple times. The manual goes on to state after repeated attempts using the reset button with no result to contact SWW technical support. I tested the unit on the bench power supply as well. While occasionally on start-up I might get a quick light sequence it always reverts to the same state as mentioned before with the brake engaged and lights on. In the interest of trying to be somewhat concise I did find some strange anomalies during this fun adventure, but for now, the questions I have for you all is if you ever have seen this condition and what might have caused it? Is there a special reset procedure SW Wind had up its sleeve if the reset button didn’t work as stated in their manual? While I completely respect where the original controller came from, could it have been failed out of the box if by chance during their decommissioning the disconnection from either the AC or DC inadvertently happened inversely? More likely though is there a sleeping problem I missed that could have subjected the newer controller to the same issue as the first? If the resistance and voltage test on the incoming AC side prove in spec, can I rule out our issue is coming from the tower side, or is there anything else I can examine? I’ve searched for white papers and called around a fair amount but haven’t found much direction. Anything you all could pass on would greatly be appreciated. Jay Pozner (970) 642-5554 www.nunatakenergy.com NABCEP Certified PV Installer: Cert.#031310-177 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 13108 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Mon Nov 30 15:35:12 2020 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Tuss, Lones) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 20:35:12 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trimetric with Outbackand the or Message-ID: Hi Bill Well the FNDC can monitor up to 3 shunts. Individual shunt can be viewed grand total can be viewed on the Mate3(S). During our phone conversation you mentioned the Mate3(S) was down stairs with the rest of the gear. 2 thoughts. 1 Run an extra cat5 cable upstairs so the mate can be moved upstairs for viewing leaving a shorter cable downstairs to be plugged in if you are working in front of the equipment. 2 If you do want to use the trimetric the shunt would need to be located somewhere in the final dc run to the batteries. I would suggest directly at the battery connection point. I hope this helps take care sir. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2020 9:06 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trimetric with Outback Wrenchers, I tried asking OB about this, no response. New FlexPwer2 installed in customer's basement, I like to keep the Mate with the system because the basement is my access point for future programming, troubleshooting, etc (rather than entering the house which many times is unoccupied)...no internet or cell service onsite. To have some system status info in the house for the customer I would like to install a Trimetric 2030 upstairs. This looks a bit tricky with three shunts in the DC enclosure to monitor various in/outputs for the FNDC to function and display info properly for the Mate. Where-o-where might the sense wire be connected to properly measure NET amps flowing hither and fro to supply the correct info for the Trimetric? The picture should help, the two cables coming off the bottom (right side) of shunt "B" are inverter negs. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net ________________________________ [Avast logo] This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com This email and any attachments may contain confidential information that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the environment before printing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu Dec 3 08:35:01 2020 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 07:35:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage with LG and BYD battery: no answer from SMA Message-ID: <0a1601d6c979$1a8aad10$4fa00730$@solarcentex.com> Wanted to share my experience with the SMA SunnyBoyStorage (SBS) with the LG and BYD battery combo. For background, not until installation nearly a year back did we discover that despite early marketing literature claims, the LG batteries would not recharge during backup operations. This was because of the DC to DC converter inside the LG that resulted in SBS losing necessary power during transitions between charging and discharging. Me and another wrench pushed SMA hard and they agreed to provide us at no cost a BYD battery which they said would be the solution and to install that is one battery with LG the remaining two. (this was previously a 3xLG system) SMA stated that the BYD and its true 400V internals would provide the continuity for the system to operate as first advertised. The BYD certainly addressed the lights going out during backup ops but the two remaining LG batteries just won't recharge during backup operations. They will discharge and discharge but no recharge from PV power during backup. SMA will not even return emails at this point as I've inquired if there is another setting to get the BYD and LG to co-exist. As we all know the SMA parameters page is not the easiest to interpret and unfortunately there is not documentation to explain the parameters such that we could make meaningful adjustments. I'm guessing the indemnity / no-sue paperwork that SMA insisted I sign before they provided the BYD is their card to cease technical support.beware out there. Whenever somebody says they have a better storage mousetrap I always wonder if the system has truly been put through the paces and has necessary tech support. I got burned by an up and coming storage/inverter system one time so when SMA came along with SBS and ABU I thought I'd have the full force and reputation of SMA to carry me into the future. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 37150 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 10:53:51 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 07:53:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage with LG and BYD battery: no answer from SMA In-Reply-To: <0a1601d6c979$1a8aad10$4fa00730$@solarcentex.com> References: <0a1601d6c979$1a8aad10$4fa00730$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Wrenches SMA storage only works with BYD, for what ever the reason (software) LG does not work with the SMA and causes as l recall a glitch when charge to discharge and back to charge. Jerry On Thu, Dec 3, 2020, 7:41 AM wrote: > Wanted to share my experience with the SMA SunnyBoyStorage (SBS) with the > LG and BYD battery combo. > > > > For background, not until installation nearly a year back did we discover > that despite early marketing literature claims, the LG batteries would not > recharge during backup operations. This was because of the DC to DC > converter inside the LG that resulted in SBS losing necessary power during > transitions between charging and discharging. Me and another wrench pushed > SMA hard and they agreed to provide us at no cost a BYD battery which they > said would be the solution and to install that is one battery with LG the > remaining two. (this was previously a 3xLG system) > > > > SMA stated that the BYD and its true 400V internals would provide the > continuity for the system to operate as first advertised. > > > > The BYD certainly addressed the lights going out during backup ops but the > two remaining LG batteries just won’t recharge during backup operations. > They will discharge and discharge but no recharge from PV power during > backup. > > > > SMA will not even return emails at this point as I’ve inquired if there is > another setting to get the BYD and LG to co-exist. As we all know the SMA > parameters page is not the easiest to interpret and unfortunately there is > not documentation to explain the parameters such that we could make > meaningful adjustments. > > > > I’m guessing the indemnity / no-sue paperwork that SMA insisted I sign > before they provided the BYD is their card to cease technical > support…beware out there. Whenever somebody says they have a better storage > mousetrap I always wonder if the system has truly been put through the > paces and has necessary tech support. I got burned by an up and coming > storage/inverter system one time so when SMA came along with SBS and ABU I > thought I’d have the full force and reputation of SMA to carry me into the > future. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 37150 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 37150 bytes Desc: not available URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu Dec 3 11:47:05 2020 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 10:47:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage with LG and BYD battery: no answer from SMA In-Reply-To: References: <0a1601d6c979$1a8aad10$4fa00730$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <0c4901d6c993$ef13dc40$cd3b94c0$@solarcentex.com> While I do not dispute Jerry’s comment except that it is not a software issue but battery design incompatibility with a battery/not PV inverter (dc to dc converter), my bigger frustration is being told by SMA that the introduction of the BYD as a replacement for one of the three LG Resu units would solve the shortcomings. It has not. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 9:54 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage with LG and BYD battery: no answer from SMA Wrenches SMA storage only works with BYD, for what ever the reason (software) LG does not work with the SMA and causes as l recall a glitch when charge to discharge and back to charge. Jerry On Thu, Dec 3, 2020, 7:41 AM > wrote: Wanted to share my experience with the SMA SunnyBoyStorage (SBS) with the LG and BYD battery combo. For background, not until installation nearly a year back did we discover that despite early marketing literature claims, the LG batteries would not recharge during backup operations. This was because of the DC to DC converter inside the LG that resulted in SBS losing necessary power during transitions between charging and discharging. Me and another wrench pushed SMA hard and they agreed to provide us at no cost a BYD battery which they said would be the solution and to install that is one battery with LG the remaining two. (this was previously a 3xLG system) SMA stated that the BYD and its true 400V internals would provide the continuity for the system to operate as first advertised. The BYD certainly addressed the lights going out during backup ops but the two remaining LG batteries just won’t recharge during backup operations. They will discharge and discharge but no recharge from PV power during backup. SMA will not even return emails at this point as I’ve inquired if there is another setting to get the BYD and LG to co-exist. As we all know the SMA parameters page is not the easiest to interpret and unfortunately there is not documentation to explain the parameters such that we could make meaningful adjustments. I’m guessing the indemnity / no-sue paperwork that SMA insisted I sign before they provided the BYD is their card to cease technical support…beware out there. Whenever somebody says they have a better storage mousetrap I always wonder if the system has truly been put through the paces and has necessary tech support. I got burned by an up and coming storage/inverter system one time so when SMA came along with SBS and ABU I thought I’d have the full force and reputation of SMA to carry me into the future. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at evcl.com Sat Dec 5 22:54:03 2020 From: david at evcl.com (David Coale) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 19:54:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Problem with Tesla solar panels References: Message-ID: <44A8D8CC-FD42-41D1-8438-7046E6A5A4DC@evcl.com> Does anyone have advice on how to get Tesla to cover their warranty or a contact at Tesla that could help with this? Thanks, David > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Michael Closson > Subject: Problem with Tesla solar panels > Date: December 5, 2020 at 5:36:28 PM PST > To: David Coale > > Hi David, > > I hope all is well with you during this time of Covid. > > I’m wondering if you have any advise for my friend Jim Ryan who is confronting problems with Tesla solar panels that he describes below. (He is a solar installer who lives and works in Costs Rica.) > > Thanks in advance for any comments you may have. > > Feel free to call me to discuss. > > Best, > > Michael > > > BBB Review posted Dec 4, 2020: > Tesla Solar Review at California Better Business Bureau > Dec 4, 2020 > I wish there was a negative five star rating option!! The lowest possible rating of one star doesn't fit our situation. > Why? We've had an absolutely terrible experience with Tesla Solar's customer service following severe technical problems with their solar panels. Specifically, the white backing sheets of our 40 modules are bubbling up and delaminating, causing destruction of the individual cells and of course production to fall to almost nothing. Obviously a critical manufacturing flaw. Tesla even admits responsibility under the warranty terms, but is unwilling to replace the panels or offer fair replacement value. > Instead they treat me as a non-customer! They are unwilling to issue me a normal 'Case Number' for my claim, which means that each time I call them, I have to explain the entire issue to a new customer service representative, because there is no case history for them to access. After a half hour or more (often much more) on hold they finally refer my call to a supervisor, who again has no case reference, so I have to explain the situation again! Then they typically tell me that the person I need to speak to is not available. But they will not tell me the name or provide the e:mail of that person I need to speak to, nor will they agree to create a standard Case Number for my issue. So very frustrating!! They have wrapped themselves in a kind of bureaucratic teflon......they just don't want to take responsibility for these faulty solar panels. > My advice.....buyer beware of Tesla Solar. If you ever have a claim or complaint, you will be ignored, or stuck in their ‘Groundhog Day’ style bureaucracy designed to endlessly frustrate you! Unlike WalMart (who reached an undisclosed settlement with Tela Solar) I don't have a team of lawyers to dedicate to holding Tesla accountable for their warranty obligations. Buyer beware of Tesla Solar!! > > > > ASI Power & Telemetry, S.A. > Liberia, Costa Rica -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 13505 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Dec 6 11:46:15 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2020 08:46:15 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Problem with Tesla solar panels In-Reply-To: <44A8D8CC-FD42-41D1-8438-7046E6A5A4DC@evcl.com> References: <44A8D8CC-FD42-41D1-8438-7046E6A5A4DC@evcl.com> Message-ID: Hi David, Maybe someone will have something better. My customer contacted Panasonic in New York and they made a suggestion. I will ask him if you want? Since the Tesla panels (panasonic origin) are being sold on the secondary market, in all kinds of shape physically, they should be avoided if you care about warranty. The Panasonic panels are excellent and I use them alot for Offgrid with the 100A/600v mppt from Schneider. The Tesla were 1/3 the price and good for a secondary array. Just buy extra used panels. Some of the ones I saw from Tesla had boot prints on the back Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 19:54:03 -0800, David Coale wrote: Does anyone have advice on how to get Tesla to cover their warranty or a contact at Tesla that could help with this? Thanks, David Begin forwarded message: FROM: Michael Closson SUBJECT: PROBLEM WITH TESLA SOLAR PANELS DATE: December 5, 2020 at 5:36:28 PM PST TO: David Coale Hi David, I hope all is well with you during this time of Covid. I'm wondering if you have any advise for my friend Jim Ryan who is confronting problems with Tesla solar panels that he describes below. (He is a solar installer who lives and works in Costs Rica.) Thanks in advance for any comments you may have. Feel free to call me to discuss. Best, Michael BBB Review posted Dec 4, 2020: Tesla Solar Review at California Better Business Bureau Dec 4, 2020 I wish there was a negative five star rating option!! The lowest possible rating of one star doesn't fit our situation. Why? We've had an absolutely terrible experience with Tesla Solar's customer service following severe technical problems with their solar panels. Specifically, the white backing sheets of our 40 modules are bubbling up and delaminating, causing destruction of the individual cells and of course production to fall to almost nothing. Obviously a critical manufacturing flaw. Tesla even admits responsibility under the warranty terms, but is unwilling to replace the panels or offer fair replacement value. Instead they treat me as a non-customer! They are unwilling to issue me a normal 'Case Number' for my claim, which means that each time I call them, I have to explain the entire issue to a new customer service representative, because there is no case history for them to access. After a half hour or more (often much more) on hold they finally refer my call to a supervisor, who again has no case reference, so I have to explain the situation again! Then they typically tell me that the person I need to speak to is not available. But they will not tell me the name or provide the e:mail of that person I need to speak to, nor will they agree to create a standard Case Number for my issue. So very frustrating!! They have wrapped themselves in a kind of bureaucratic teflon......they just don't want to take responsibility for these faulty solar panels. My advice.....buyer beware of Tesla Solar. If you ever have a claim or complaint, you will be ignored, or stuck in their 'Groundhog Day' style bureaucracy designed to endlessly frustrate you! Unlike WalMart (who reached an undisclosed settlement with Tela Solar) I don't have a team of lawyers to dedicate to holding Tesla accountable for their warranty obligations. Buyer beware of Tesla Solar!! ASI Power "> Liberia, Costa Rica Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:micloss7 at gmail.com [4] mailto:david at evcl.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-frown.gif Type: image/gif Size: 340 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 13505 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Dec 6 12:32:40 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2020 09:32:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage with LG and BYD battery: no answer from SMA In-Reply-To: <0c4901d6c993$ef13dc40$cd3b94c0$@solarcentex.com> References: <0a1601d6c979$1a8aad10$4fa00730$@solarcentex.com> <0c4901d6c993$ef13dc40$cd3b94c0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <9c547db676dd23e8e135c3a60fbcaa85@127.0.0.1> LG has just dropped the ball on this period. SMA is culpable in letting this happen. I see LG is coming out with a bigger version of the 10H. LG blew the 48v market 3 years back! And worse, they never wanted to find the root cause. Was it charge or discharge that killed their 48v batteries? Even though the solar edge seems to work with LG, I would avoid LG on batteries. Too many good choices out there. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 10:47:05 -0600, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: While I do not dispute Jerry's comment except that it is not a software issue but battery design incompatibility with a battery/not PV inverter (dc to dc converter), my bigger frustration is being told by SMA that the introduction of the BYD as a replacement for one of the three LG Resu units would solve the shortcomings. It has not. FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Jerry Shafer SENT: Thursday, December 3, 2020 9:54 AM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage with LG and BYD battery: no answer from SMA Wrenches SMA storage only works with BYD, for what ever the reason (software) LG does not work with the SMA and causes as l recall a glitch when charge to discharge and back to charge. Jerry On Thu, Dec 3, 2020, 7:41 AM wrote: Wanted to share my experience with the SMA SunnyBoyStorage (SBS) with the LG and BYD battery combo. For background, not until installation nearly a year back did we discover that despite early marketing literature claims, the LG batteries would not recharge during backup operations. This was because of the DC to DC converter inside the LG that resulted in SBS losing necessary power during transitions between charging and discharging. Me and another wrench pushed SMA hard and they agreed to provide us at no cost a BYD battery which they said would be the solution and to install that is one battery with LG the remaining two. (this was previously a 3xLG system) SMA stated that the BYD and its true 400V internals would provide the continuity for the system to operate as first advertised. The BYD certainly addressed the lights going out during backup ops but the two remaining LG batteries just won't recharge during backup operations. They will discharge and discharge but no recharge from PV power during backup. SMA will not even return emails at this point as I've inquired if there is another setting to get the BYD and LG to co-exist. As we all know the SMA parameters page is not the easiest to interpret and unfortunately there is not documentation to explain the parameters such that we could make meaningful adjustments. I'm guessing the indemnity / no-sue paperwork that SMA insisted I sign before they provided the BYD is their card to cease technical support...beware out there. Whenever somebody says they have a better storage mousetrap I always wonder if the system has truly been put through the paces and has necessary tech support. I got burned by an up and coming storage/inverter system one time so when SMA came along with SBS and ABU I thought I'd have the full force and reputation of SMA to carry me into the future. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [9] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:scot.arey at solarcentex.com [4] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Dec 7 12:30:30 2020 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 12:30:30 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whisper 175(500) EZ wire controller troubleshooting Message-ID: G'Day All, We have resurrected an old Southwest Windpower Whisper 500 HV unit. We're having issues with the EZ wire controller and seeking input from our peers on how to further troubleshoot the internal components of the controller. Measuring the 3 phase input (from the turbine) at the step down transformer and comparing to the output to the controller it appears that there is about a 3:1 or 4:1 turn down ratio whiich is what I had recorded at the time of the original install back in 2002. So I'd say the transformer is performing as required. The issue I'm having is at the controller. I'm getting no DC output to the battery's DC buss. Perhaps a bad SCR or cap. Admittedly I've never had to troubleshoot this deep into an EZ wire controller so I'm looking to pull from our peers any tips you may have. Next, if anyone has an old operational controller collecting dust I'd be interested in purchasing it from you. I've enclosed some pictures to jog our memories, lol. Thanks in advance, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20201128_153648.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 144056 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20201128_153628.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 299983 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20201205_122840.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 262762 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Tue Dec 8 01:22:19 2020 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 23:22:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exeltech XP2000-24 caution Message-ID: Fellow Wrenches, I don't often use Exeltech inverters, as they're not designed for common whole-house applications, lacking a generator charging function. But sometimes a small system is a good match for their clean waveform. For years their XP line was a decent choice for a tiny house or similar small-loads system. For a recent budget system for a yurt, I had rejected the XP line, as I thought that at 1,100 watts AC out the XP1100 was their largest offering and it was too small for a couple of loads. I learned, though, that Exeltech now makes a 2,000 watt model. I ordered one directly from Exeltech for this job. It works, but has a fundamental design limitation severe enough to be of limited usefulness in most remote home applications, especially in colder winter climates. I'm writing this as a heads-up to others. The limitation is simply this: DC voltage to the unit is capped at 30V DC, and above this voltage the unit shuts off until the battery voltage is reduced. This limits the unit pretty much to VRLA or lithium batteries (no equalizing) and warmer climates or indoor locations. The smaller XP600 and 1100 have a HVD of 16.5/33/66 VDC, so this isn't an issue with these units. The 2 kW units are rated 15/30/60 VDC, and this is nonadjustable. There are no warnings on the spec sheet or in the manual about this limitation. Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.siegenthaler at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 21:00:59 2020 From: jon.siegenthaler at gmail.com (Jon Siegenthaler) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:00:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AC Backfeed Error Message-ID: Hey wrenches, I have a client who has a couple of the Radian 8048's and has an error code of "AC Backfeed Error GS-1". Looking at the manual it states that "Usually indicates another AC power source (out of phase with the inverter) was connected to the unit’s AC output. Can also occur if an out-of-phase AC source is connected to the inverter’s AC input." However when this happened the generator wasn't running and it's an off grid system. Is there a way that the master is looking to the slave as another power source? The system had been running fine this week, auto running the generator early morning and shutting down on its own. Anyone seen something like this before? Thanks, Jon Siegenthaler -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Dec 11 21:03:43 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 18:03:43 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AC Backfeed Error In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jon: In the deep recess of my memory I recall this error code with FX inverters. It was caused by a stuck transfer relay. You might open the inverter cover and look for signs of smoke or arcing in the relay. Good luck! Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jon Siegenthaler *Sent:* Friday, December 11, 2020 6:01 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Outback AC Backfeed Error Hey wrenches, I have a client who has a couple of the Radian 8048's and has an error code of "AC Backfeed Error GS-1". Looking at the manual it states that "Usually indicates another AC power source (out of phase with the inverter) was connected to the unit’s AC output. Can also occur if an out-of-phase AC source is connected to the inverter’s AC input." However when this happened the generator wasn't running and it's an off grid system. Is there a way that the master is looking to the slave as another power source? The system had been running fine this week, auto running the generator early morning and shutting down on its own. Anyone seen something like this before? Thanks, Jon Siegenthaler -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Fri Dec 11 21:22:43 2020 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 18:22:43 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AC Backfeed Error In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As William said... That is usually a relay issue. In the older FX's, it could also be a sticking issue like the hub or connections. Steve Higgins. On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 6:16 PM William Miller wrote: > Jon: > > > > In the deep recess of my memory I recall this error code with FX > inverters. It was caused by a stuck transfer relay. You might open the > inverter cover and look for signs of smoke or arcing in the relay. > > > > Good luck! > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jon Siegenthaler > *Sent:* Friday, December 11, 2020 6:01 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Outback AC Backfeed Error > > > > Hey wrenches, > > > > I have a client who has a couple of the Radian 8048's and has an error > code of "AC Backfeed Error GS-1". Looking at the manual it states that > "Usually indicates another AC power source (out of phase with the inverter) > was connected to the unit’s AC output. Can also occur if an out-of-phase AC > source is connected to the inverter’s AC input." > > > > However when this happened the generator wasn't running and it's an off > grid system. Is there a way that the master is looking to the slave as > another power source? The system had been running fine this week, auto > running the generator early morning and shutting down on its own. > > > > Anyone seen something like this before? Thanks, > > > > Jon Siegenthaler > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Fri Dec 11 21:23:53 2020 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 02:23:53 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AC Backfeed Error In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <7CC59D0F-9286-4C2A-8524-CB93617FD9B1@foxfire-energy.com> Seem to recall something similar with early FX inverters.. Don’t recall the particulars but it might have had something to do with loosing their mind before shutting down.. maybe a shorted output. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 11, 2020, at 9:16 PM, William Miller wrote:  Jon: In the deep recess of my memory I recall this error code with FX inverters. It was caused by a stuck transfer relay. You might open the inverter cover and look for signs of smoke or arcing in the relay. Good luck! Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jon Siegenthaler Sent: Friday, December 11, 2020 6:01 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AC Backfeed Error Hey wrenches, I have a client who has a couple of the Radian 8048's and has an error code of "AC Backfeed Error GS-1". Looking at the manual it states that "Usually indicates another AC power source (out of phase with the inverter) was connected to the unit’s AC output. Can also occur if an out-of-phase AC source is connected to the inverter’s AC input." However when this happened the generator wasn't running and it's an off grid system. Is there a way that the master is looking to the slave as another power source? The system had been running fine this week, auto running the generator early morning and shutting down on its own. Anyone seen something like this before? Thanks, Jon Siegenthaler _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 21:44:11 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 18:44:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AC Backfeed Error In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Might want to look at the hub and data cables to the inverters, bad or poor connections can effect phases of the inverters, l have seen this manifest it self with errors like inverter firmware issues that in fact are bogus. The OEM cat 5 cables are not shielded and that causes problem when they are wrapped all around in a box. Easy to test with meters, how many times have you just rebooted or unplugged something for it all to get better. Anyway thats just one of many great ideas Jerry NABCEP Inspector NABCEP Installer On Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 6:01 PM Jon Siegenthaler wrote: > Hey wrenches, > > I have a client who has a couple of the Radian 8048's and has an error > code of "AC Backfeed Error GS-1". Looking at the manual it states that > "Usually indicates another AC power source (out of phase with the inverter) > was connected to the unit’s AC output. Can also occur if an out-of-phase AC > source is connected to the inverter’s AC input." > > However when this happened the generator wasn't running and it's an off > grid system. Is there a way that the master is looking to the slave as > another power source? The system had been running fine this week, auto > running the generator early morning and shutting down on its own. > > Anyone seen something like this before? Thanks, > > Jon Siegenthaler > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Fri Dec 11 21:20:43 2020 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 18:20:43 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AC Backfeed Error In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Jon,I have seen this early on, when the Mate3 first came out. The slave back fed the master. The Mate3 didn't accept our programming, a firmware update corrected this glitch. Chris Worcester chris at solarwindworks.com530-448-9692Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9. -------- Original message --------From: Jon Siegenthaler Date: 12/11/20 6:01 PM (GMT-08:00) To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AC Backfeed Error Hey wrenches,I have a client who has a couple of the Radian 8048's and has an error code of "AC Backfeed Error GS-1". Looking at the manual it states that "Usually indicates another AC power source (out of phase with the inverter) was connected to the unit’s AC output. Can also occur if an out-of-phase AC source is connected to the inverter’s AC input."However when this happened the generator wasn't running and it's an off grid system. Is there a way that the master is looking to the slave as another power source? The system had been running fine this week, auto running the generator early morning and shutting down on its own. Anyone seen something like this before? Thanks,Jon Siegenthaler -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bchurchill at energy-1.net Fri Dec 11 23:12:49 2020 From: bchurchill at energy-1.net (Barton Churchill) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 04:12:49 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AC Backfeed Error In-Reply-To: <20201212040607.AB5961087DE@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: , <20201212040607.AB5961087DE@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: You could try going through the stacking sequence again to make sure they can synchronize properly. This is a good test of that output relay in each Radian. If there's a problem, you won't hear them, and they are noisy. Like the instructions state be sure the output breakers are open! [cid:699e3bd7-2852-4ad0-830e-dc63c6fa2b82]Barton Churchill Director, Power Division 2042 Stadium Drive Suite 2 • Bozeman, MT 59715 • (O) 406-587-2917 • (D) 406-589-4493 235 E. Broadway • Jackson, WY 83001 • (O) 307-200-2210 bchurchill at energy-1.net | www.energy-1.net ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Chris Worcester Sent: Friday, December 11, 2020 7:20 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback AC Backfeed Error Hi Jon, I have seen this early on, when the Mate3 first came out. The slave back fed the master. The Mate3 didn't accept our programming, a firmware update corrected this glitch. Chris Worcester chris at solarwindworks.com 530-448-9692 Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9. -------- Original message -------- From: Jon Siegenthaler Date: 12/11/20 6:01 PM (GMT-08:00) To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AC Backfeed Error Hey wrenches, I have a client who has a couple of the Radian 8048's and has an error code of "AC Backfeed Error GS-1". Looking at the manual it states that "Usually indicates another AC power source (out of phase with the inverter) was connected to the unit’s AC output. Can also occur if an out-of-phase AC source is connected to the inverter’s AC input." However when this happened the generator wasn't running and it's an off grid system. Is there a way that the master is looking to the slave as another power source? The system had been running fine this week, auto running the generator early morning and shutting down on its own. Anyone seen something like this before? Thanks, Jon Siegenthaler -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-1oslbg0i.png Type: image/png Size: 7692 bytes Desc: Outlook-1oslbg0i.png URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Sat Dec 12 09:00:32 2020 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 09:00:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AC Backfeed Error In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000201d6d08f$287734d0$79659e70$@mindspring.com> Recently had this on a project. Turns out it was two things, the cat 5 cables needed to be shielded so I went to Cat7 and the firmware upgrades did not take on one of the radians. Had to do it 3 times. System works fine now. Peter Giroux American Solar From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jon Siegenthaler Sent: Friday, December 11, 2020 9:01 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AC Backfeed Error Hey wrenches, I have a client who has a couple of the Radian 8048's and has an error code of "AC Backfeed Error GS-1". Looking at the manual it states that "Usually indicates another AC power source (out of phase with the inverter) was connected to the unit’s AC output. Can also occur if an out-of-phase AC source is connected to the inverter’s AC input." However when this happened the generator wasn't running and it's an off grid system. Is there a way that the master is looking to the slave as another power source? The system had been running fine this week, auto running the generator early morning and shutting down on its own. Anyone seen something like this before? Thanks, Jon Siegenthaler -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Mon Dec 14 11:07:10 2020 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Tuss, Lones) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 16:07:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AC Backfeed Error In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jon Not much to go on here the suggestion to look for damaged relays is probably a good idea. Look to see if there is signs of arcing or the relay covers have a smokey appearance. You stated the system has worked for the last week and the AGS has gone through several start stop sequences and the system error has not repeated. It might be interesting to see if there were any warning in the event log perhaps that would give more clues. It is difficult to be certain when the system is currently functioning. Sorry that is all I have. Take Care Sir From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jon Siegenthaler Sent: Friday, December 11, 2020 6:01 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AC Backfeed Error Hey wrenches, I have a client who has a couple of the Radian 8048's and has an error code of "AC Backfeed Error GS-1". Looking at the manual it states that "Usually indicates another AC power source (out of phase with the inverter) was connected to the unit’s AC output. Can also occur if an out-of-phase AC source is connected to the inverter’s AC input." However when this happened the generator wasn't running and it's an off grid system. Is there a way that the master is looking to the slave as another power source? The system had been running fine this week, auto running the generator early morning and shutting down on its own. Anyone seen something like this before? Thanks, Jon Siegenthaler This email and any attachments may contain confidential information that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the environment before printing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 11:38:38 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 09:38:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AC Backfeed Error In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI Jon, Can you tell us how long the system has been operational? Trying to figure out if this is a new system or an older. And what size generator do you have? If its an older system and with a big generator/big loads then there is a possibility of damaged/sticky relays. jay peltz power > On Dec 14, 2020, at 9:07 AM, Tuss, Lones wrote: > > Hi Jon > Not much to go on here the suggestion to look for damaged relays is probably a good idea. > Look to see if there is signs of arcing or the relay covers have a smokey appearance. > You stated the system has worked for the last week and the AGS has gone through several start stop sequences and the system error has not repeated. > It might be interesting to see if there were any warning in the event log perhaps that would give more clues. > It is difficult to be certain when the system is currently functioning. > Sorry that is all I have. > Take Care Sir > > > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jon Siegenthaler > Sent: Friday, December 11, 2020 6:01 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AC Backfeed Error > > Hey wrenches, > > I have a client who has a couple of the Radian 8048's and has an error code of "AC Backfeed Error GS-1". Looking at the manual it states that "Usually indicates another AC power source (out of phase with the inverter) was connected to the unit’s AC output. Can also occur if an out-of-phase AC source is connected to the inverter’s AC input." > > However when this happened the generator wasn't running and it's an off grid system. Is there a way that the master is looking to the slave as another power source? The system had been running fine this week, auto running the generator early morning and shutting down on its own. > > Anyone seen something like this before? Thanks, > > Jon Siegenthaler > > > This email and any attachments may contain confidential information that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the environment before printing._______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Tue Dec 15 13:14:15 2020 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 13:14:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW4048 not charging from generator Message-ID: Hi All, I am going to service a system where the homeowner is telling me that their Conext SW4048 had been working fine for 14 months, and then all of a sudden recently stopped being able to charge the batteries from the generator. It is an off grid system. The inverter would start charging the batteries, but then about a minute later they would hear a relay click and the charging would stop. Then it would just keep cycling. If they turned everything off for a while, they could then turn it back on and charge for maybe 10 minutes before it would start cycling. They just have a crappy 4kw generator from Harbor Freight. I have not laid my own eyes on it yet, but will be there in the next day or two. Just wondering if anyone has experienced these symptoms and have a good idea of what to look for first. Thanks! -Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Dec 15 13:55:04 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 10:55:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW4048 not charging from generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5c2fe3b39a8b93480bc60f773b6da12d@127.0.0.1> No Sir! Never use a cheap genset on any inverter/charger. It is the best way to ruin the input relays. The alternative is to have a spare DC charger for use after the inverter/charger has been damaged. Schneider also logs this for warranty. I would assume that Outback Radian does also? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 13:14:15 -0500, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Hi All, I am going to service a system where the homeowner is telling me that their Conext SW4048 had been working fine for 14 months, and then all of a sudden recently stopped being able to charge the batteries from the generator. It is an off grid system. The inverter would start charging the batteries, but then about a minute later they would hear a relay click and the charging would stop. Then it would just keep cycling. If they turned everything off for a while, they could then turn it back on and charge for maybe 10 minutes before it would start cycling. They just have a crappy 4kw generator from Harbor Freight. I have not laid my own eyes on it yet, but will be there in the next day or two. Just wondering if anyone has experienced these symptoms and have a good idea of what to look for first. Thanks! -Dave DAVE TEDEYAN, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com [3] Solar * Sustainability * Energy * Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.taitem.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Tue Dec 15 13:57:53 2020 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 11:57:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW4048 not charging from generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave, I would first suspect the generator, not the inverter. Check its output voltage and Hz under load. If it's overloading, either (or both) voltage and frequency will drop below the acceptable range and the inverter will unlatch its input relays, wait for a bit, relatch and ramp up input amps until it again overloads and the cycle repeats. You may reduce either (or both) charging amps and overall input amps, broaden the frequency and minimum voltage acceptance ranges (I don't recommend this), adjust the AC output voltage of the generator, or advise them to get a better gennie. Allan On 12/15/2020 11:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi All, > > I am going to service a system where the homeowner is telling me that > their Conext SW4048 had been working fine for 14 months, and then all > of a sudden recently stopped being able to charge the batteries from > the generator. It is an off grid system. > > The inverter would start charging the batteries, but then about a > minute later they would hear a relay click and the charging would > stop. Then it would just keep cycling. If they turned everything off > for a while, they could then turn it back on and charge for maybe 10 > minutes before it would start cycling. They just have a crappy 4kw > generator from Harbor Freight. > > I have not laid my own eyes on it yet, but will be there in the next > day or two. Just wondering if anyone has experienced these symptoms > and have a good idea of what to look for first. > > Thanks! > -Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. _607.277.1118 x121_  f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar •Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Tue Dec 15 14:01:24 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 11:01:24 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW4048 not charging from generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <11dc9b43-393e-94ef-0de1-e78862c3ee07@villagepowerdesign.com> Try lowering the max charge amps incrementally. > Dave Tedeyan > December 15, 2020 at 10:14 AM > Hi All, > > I am going to service a system where the homeowner is telling me that > their Conext SW4048 had been working fine for 14 months, and then all > of a sudden recently stopped being able to charge the batteries from > the generator. It is an off grid system. > > The inverter would start charging the batteries, but then about a > minute later they would hear a relay click and the charging would > stop. Then it would just keep cycling. If they turned everything off > for a while, they could then turn it back on and charge for maybe 10 > minutes before it would start cycling. They just have a crappy 4kw > generator from Harbor Freight. > > I have not laid my own eyes on it yet, but will be there in the next > day or two. Just wondering if anyone has experienced these symptoms > and have a good idea of what to look for first. > > Thanks! > -Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. _607.277.1118 x121_  f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar •Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 13:46:36 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 11:46:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW4048 not charging from generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI Dave, Have them turn down the AC input and see if that fixes it. Sounds like a classic generator issue. As to why? When did they last change the oil, air filter, fuel filter, spark plug, adjust the valve or some electronic issue with the generator. jay peltz power > On Dec 15, 2020, at 11:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Hi All, > > I am going to service a system where the homeowner is telling me that their Conext SW4048 had been working fine for 14 months, and then all of a sudden recently stopped being able to charge the batteries from the generator. It is an off grid system. > > The inverter would start charging the batteries, but then about a minute later they would hear a relay click and the charging would stop. Then it would just keep cycling. If they turned everything off for a while, they could then turn it back on and charge for maybe 10 minutes before it would start cycling. They just have a crappy 4kw generator from Harbor Freight. > > I have not laid my own eyes on it yet, but will be there in the next day or two. Just wondering if anyone has experienced these symptoms and have a good idea of what to look for first. > > Thanks! > -Dave > > Dave Tedeyan, PE > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Tue Dec 15 14:17:23 2020 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 14:17:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW4048 not charging from generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >From what I understand, they have had the system for a little over a year, and have not done any maintenance on the generator. I was also more suspicious of the generator, and was going to try turning down the charging amps to see if the generator will work better not being so loaded. Dave, do you know if the Conext will log an error if the relays have actually been damaged? I am hoping that there will be something in the error logs that will help identify whether there is an inverter issue now, or whether the issue lies with the generator input. Thanks! -Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 2:01 PM jay wrote: > HI Dave, > > Have them turn down the AC input and see if that fixes it. > Sounds like a classic generator issue. > As to why? When did they last change the oil, air filter, fuel filter, > spark plug, adjust the valve or some electronic issue with the generator. > > > jay > > peltz power > > On Dec 15, 2020, at 11:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Hi All, > > I am going to service a system where the homeowner is telling me that > their Conext SW4048 had been working fine for 14 months, and then all of a > sudden recently stopped being able to charge the batteries from the > generator. It is an off grid system. > > The inverter would start charging the batteries, but then about a minute > later they would hear a relay click and the charging would stop. Then it > would just keep cycling. If they turned everything off for a while, they > could then turn it back on and charge for maybe 10 minutes before it would > start cycling. They just have a crappy 4kw generator from Harbor Freight. > > I have not laid my own eyes on it yet, but will be there in the next day > or two. Just wondering if anyone has experienced these symptoms and have a > good idea of what to look for first. > > Thanks! > -Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Dec 15 14:21:19 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 14:21:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW4048 not charging from generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Definitely the generator.  Harbor Freight?  4 kW into a 4 kW charger?  What's the altitude?   I believe that 4 kW generator is actually only 3.5 kW continuous rated.   By the time you derate for altitude, and then account for the generator not being built to be a prime power unit, its probably reasonable to derate it 50%.  Then yet another thing,  those gennies are 240/120 so you only get half the rated power at 120 vac, and it unbalances the load on the generator.  Is that Conext 240/ 120 or just 120vac ? Its just going to be a head ache for everyone until they buy something much better.  They really need something in the 6.5 kW to 9 kW range, and 240 to 120 transformer if the Conext is not the 240/120 model, so that the generator is loaded evenly. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 12/15/20 1:57 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > > Dave, > > I would first suspect the generator, not the inverter. Check its > output voltage and Hz under load. If it's overloading, either (or > both) voltage and frequency will drop below the acceptable range and > the inverter will unlatch its input relays, wait for a bit, relatch > and ramp up input amps until it again overloads and the cycle repeats. > You may reduce either (or both) charging amps and overall input amps, > broaden the frequency and minimum voltage acceptance ranges (I don't > recommend this), adjust the AC output voltage of the generator, or > advise them to get a better gennie. > > Allan > > On 12/15/2020 11:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> I am going to service a system where the homeowner is telling me that >> their Conext SW4048 had been working fine for 14 months, and then all >> of a sudden recently stopped being able to charge the batteries from >> the generator. It is an off grid system. >> >> The inverter would start charging the batteries, but then about a >> minute later they would hear a relay click and the charging would >> stop. Then it would just keep cycling. If they turned everything off >> for a while, they could then turn it back on and charge for maybe 10 >> minutes before it would start cycling. They just have a crappy 4kw >> generator from Harbor Freight. >> >> I have not laid my own eyes on it yet, but will be there in the next >> day or two. Just wondering if anyone has experienced these symptoms >> and have a good idea of what to look for first. >> >> Thanks! >> -Dave >> >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> o. _607.277.1118 x121_  f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com >> >> Solar •Sustainability • Energy • Design >> Certified B-Corporation since 2013 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 14:32:30 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 14:32:30 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW4048 not charging from generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Try having them decreasing the Max Charge Rate to 50% and monitoring the AC output, specifically looking for spikes and dips in voltage and frequency via the SCP. Although you can open AC input parameters to allow for dirtier power to be qualified, I would definitely suggest against this. Sounds like they need a higher quality generator. Keep in mind that the SW 4048 is a 45A max DC charger. On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 2:21 PM Ray wrote: > Definitely the generator. Harbor Freight? 4 kW into a 4 kW charger? > What's the altitude? I believe that 4 kW generator is actually only 3.5 > kW continuous rated. By the time you derate for altitude, and then > account for the generator not being built to be a prime power unit, its > probably reasonable to derate it 50%. Then yet another thing, those > gennies are 240/120 so you only get half the rated power at 120 vac, and it > unbalances the load on the generator. Is that Conext 240/ 120 or just > 120vac ? > > Its just going to be a head ache for everyone until they buy something > much better. They really need something in the 6.5 kW to 9 kW range, and > 240 to 120 transformer if the Conext is not the 240/120 model, so that the > generator is loaded evenly. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 12/15/20 1:57 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > > Dave, > > I would first suspect the generator, not the inverter. Check its output > voltage and Hz under load. If it's overloading, either (or both) voltage > and frequency will drop below the acceptable range and the inverter will > unlatch its input relays, wait for a bit, relatch and ramp up input amps > until it again overloads and the cycle repeats. You may reduce either (or > both) charging amps and overall input amps, broaden the frequency and > minimum voltage acceptance ranges (I don't recommend this), adjust the AC > output voltage of the generator, or advise them to get a better gennie. > > Allan > On 12/15/2020 11:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Hi All, > > I am going to service a system where the homeowner is telling me that > their Conext SW4048 had been working fine for 14 months, and then all of a > sudden recently stopped being able to charge the batteries from the > generator. It is an off grid system. > > The inverter would start charging the batteries, but then about a minute > later they would hear a relay click and the charging would stop. Then it > would just keep cycling. If they turned everything off for a while, they > could then turn it back on and charge for maybe 10 minutes before it would > start cycling. They just have a crappy 4kw generator from Harbor Freight. > > I have not laid my own eyes on it yet, but will be there in the next day > or two. Just wondering if anyone has experienced these symptoms and have a > good idea of what to look for first. > > Thanks! > -Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street > | > Ithaca, NY 14850 > > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Dec 15 14:57:20 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 11:57:20 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW4048 not charging from generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The log in non volatile memory (if excessive) would show under events (current and historical) in Gateway for the CSW40408. It might also be in SCP for the device by scrolling down to view device info, enter, faults and warnings. There will be dates and fault and warning numbers. If this all worked at one time, I would suspect the genset has drifted off frequency. Needs to be close to 60 hertz and then when qualified it will follow the gen frequency. As others have said maybe they are loading it differently. A basic gen problem with small sets. Often the easy fix is to tell them when they start the gen to reduce all discretionary loads for the first hour or two to charge batteries. Then bring loads on like kitchen and laundry. There are a bunch of other advanced ways to to program charging. All of this seems to disappear with a quality genset from the usual suspects. Many of my clients live in places where they do not need the beast! None here for 20 years! If the gen is toast, a nice 2- 3kw gen can be run into L1 and charge from a 120vac source. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 14:17:23 -0500, Dave Tedeyan wrote: From what I understand, they have had the system for a little over a year, and have not done any maintenance on the generator. I was also more suspicious of the generator, and was going to try turning down the charging amps to see if the generator will work better not being so loaded. Dave, do you know if the Conext will log an error if the relays have actually been damaged? I am hoping that there will be something in the error logs that will help identify whether there is an inverter issue now, or whether the issue lies with the generator input. Thanks! -Dave DAVE TEDEYAN, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com [3] Solar * Sustainability * Energy * Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 2:01 PM jay wrote: HI Dave, Have them turn down the AC input and see if that fixes it. Sounds like a classic generator issue. As to why? When did they last change the oil, air filter, fuel filter, spark plug, adjust the valve or some electronic issue with the generator. jay peltz power On Dec 15, 2020, at 11:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Hi All, I am going to service a system where the homeowner is telling me that their Conext SW4048 had been working fine for 14 months, and then all of a sudden recently stopped being able to charge the batteries from the generator. It is an off grid system. The inverter would start charging the batteries, but then about a minute later they would hear a relay click and the charging would stop. Then it would just keep cycling. If they turned everything off for a while, they could then turn it back on and charge for maybe 10 minutes before it would start cycling. They just have a crappy 4kw generator from Harbor Freight. I have not laid my own eyes on it yet, but will be there in the next day or two. Just wondering if anyone has experienced these symptoms and have a good idea of what to look for first. Thanks! -Dave DAVE TEDEYAN, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com [6] Solar * Sustainability * Energy * Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [15] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [17] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [18] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.taitem.com [4] mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com [5] mailto:dtedeyan at taitem.com [6] http://www.taitem.com/ [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [16] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [18] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-cool.gif Type: image/gif Size: 354 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Tue Dec 15 15:01:52 2020 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 15:01:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW4048 not charging from generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0fb18770-359f-66cf-c3b3-46c36080cdb7@four-winds-energy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Dec 15 18:41:30 2020 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 16:41:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW4048 not charging from generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006701d6d33b$d1499540$73dcbfc0$@solarwork.com> U get what u pay for………… Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2020 12:21 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW4048 not charging from generator Definitely the generator. Harbor Freight? 4 kW into a 4 kW charger? What's the altitude? I believe that 4 kW generator is actually only 3.5 kW continuous rated. By the time you derate for altitude, and then account for the generator not being built to be a prime power unit, its probably reasonable to derate it 50%. Then yet another thing, those gennies are 240/120 so you only get half the rated power at 120 vac, and it unbalances the load on the generator. Is that Conext 240/ 120 or just 120vac ? Its just going to be a head ache for everyone until they buy something much better. They really need something in the 6.5 kW to 9 kW range, and 240 to 120 transformer if the Conext is not the 240/120 model, so that the generator is loaded evenly. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 12/15/20 1:57 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: Dave, I would first suspect the generator, not the inverter. Check its output voltage and Hz under load. If it's overloading, either (or both) voltage and frequency will drop below the acceptable range and the inverter will unlatch its input relays, wait for a bit, relatch and ramp up input amps until it again overloads and the cycle repeats. You may reduce either (or both) charging amps and overall input amps, broaden the frequency and minimum voltage acceptance ranges (I don't recommend this), adjust the AC output voltage of the generator, or advise them to get a better gennie. Allan On 12/15/2020 11:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Hi All, I am going to service a system where the homeowner is telling me that their Conext SW4048 had been working fine for 14 months, and then all of a sudden recently stopped being able to charge the batteries from the generator. It is an off grid system. The inverter would start charging the batteries, but then about a minute later they would hear a relay click and the charging would stop. Then it would just keep cycling. If they turned everything off for a while, they could then turn it back on and charge for maybe 10 minutes before it would start cycling. They just have a crappy 4kw generator from Harbor Freight. I have not laid my own eyes on it yet, but will be there in the next day or two. Just wondering if anyone has experienced these symptoms and have a good idea of what to look for first. Thanks! -Dave Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD0000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From reellison at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 09:18:42 2020 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 09:18:42 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW4048 not charging from generator In-Reply-To: <0fb18770-359f-66cf-c3b3-46c36080cdb7@four-winds-energy.com> References: <0fb18770-359f-66cf-c3b3-46c36080cdb7@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: <9A45BE69-5504-41AE-A41F-FFD1F9872B78@gmail.com> I can second that it is probably the generator And a 4K generator does not have an off a lot of headroom to charge batteries as well as carry the loads in the house Put a fast reacting meter on it and see what the voltage is as the generator goes up and down charging and not charging I have plenty of other ideas but not enough time to cover than all Bob Ellison > On Dec 15, 2020, at 3:01 PM, Roy Butler wrote: > > Dave, > > You're not far from me, so I know that the temperature at the site has been well below freezing at night. > After running a series of cheap generators here for many years I can tell you that there's likely water built up at the bottom of the fuel tank. > This freezes and constricts fuel flow which of course affects generator rpm and thus voltage and frequency. > > So check for that but as everyone else has said so well, it's the generator. > Roy Butler > Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC > 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 > 607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com > > Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. > > Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, > a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. > > >> On 12/15/2020 2:17 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> From what I understand, they have had the system for a little over a year, and have not done any maintenance on the generator. >> I was also more suspicious of the generator, and was going to try turning down the charging amps to see if the generator will work better not being so loaded. >> >> Dave, do you know if the Conext will log an error if the relays have actually been damaged? I am hoping that there will be something in the error logs that will help identify whether there is an inverter issue now, or whether the issue lies with the generator input. >> >> Thanks! >> -Dave >> >> Dave Tedeyan, PE >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com >> >> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design >> Certified B-Corporation since 2013 >> >> >>> On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 2:01 PM jay wrote: >>> HI Dave, >>> >>> Have them turn down the AC input and see if that fixes it. >>> Sounds like a classic generator issue. >>> As to why? When did they last change the oil, air filter, fuel filter, spark plug, adjust the valve or some electronic issue with the generator. >>> >>> >>> jay >>> >>> peltz power >>> >>>> On Dec 15, 2020, at 11:14 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> I am going to service a system where the homeowner is telling me that their Conext SW4048 had been working fine for 14 months, and then all of a sudden recently stopped being able to charge the batteries from the generator. It is an off grid system. >>>> >>>> The inverter would start charging the batteries, but then about a minute later they would hear a relay click and the charging would stop. Then it would just keep cycling. If they turned everything off for a while, they could then turn it back on and charge for maybe 10 minutes before it would start cycling. They just have a crappy 4kw generator from Harbor Freight. >>>> >>>> I have not laid my own eyes on it yet, but will be there in the next day or two. Just wondering if anyone has experienced these symptoms and have a good idea of what to look for first. >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> -Dave >>>> >>>> Dave Tedeyan, PE >>>> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >>>> >>>> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>>> o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 >>>> www.taitem.com >>>> >>>> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design >>>> Certified B-Corporation since 2013 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 10:03:21 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 07:03:21 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW4048 not charging from generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches You may have answered you question here, "crappy genny" if the voltage or the freq is to far out or just very dirty AC, the inverter will as you discribed, keep attempting to connect but due to one of the issues can't maintain a connection. Jerry NABCEP Inspector On Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 10:37 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi All, > > I am going to service a system where the homeowner is telling me that > their Conext SW4048 had been working fine for 14 months, and then all of a > sudden recently stopped being able to charge the batteries from the > generator. It is an off grid system. > > The inverter would start charging the batteries, but then about a minute > later they would hear a relay click and the charging would stop. Then it > would just keep cycling. If they turned everything off for a while, they > could then turn it back on and charge for maybe 10 minutes before it would > start cycling. They just have a crappy 4kw generator from Harbor Freight. > > I have not laid my own eyes on it yet, but will be there in the next day > or two. Just wondering if anyone has experienced these symptoms and have a > good idea of what to look for first. > > Thanks! > -Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 09:26:26 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 07:26:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] El Sid replacement Message-ID: <25C0FF28-97BF-4493-8DAB-B89926BC6B8F@gmail.com> Hi All I know this was discussed not too long ago but I can’t find the thread. I have someone looking to replace a 25 yr old March 809 24vac unit. He runs it off of grid power via a small transformer. Thoughts on replacement or the link info. Thanks Jay From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 10:35:02 2020 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 08:35:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW4048 not charging from generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Often just adjusting the throttle screw is enough to get these low quality generators back into the spec that the inverter will accept. I expect you will find it well below 60 Hz and 240V (or 120V) when loaded heavily. Many people never do any maintenance so don't be surprised if the air-filter is clogged and the plugs need changed. As suggested, I'd probably set the AC input to ~50% of rated capacity of the generator, maybe less. On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 8:03 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > You may have answered you question here, "crappy genny" if the voltage or > the freq is to far out or just very dirty AC, the inverter will as you > discribed, keep attempting to connect but due to one of the issues can't > maintain a connection. > Jerry > NABCEP Inspector > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 10:37 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> I am going to service a system where the homeowner is telling me that >> their Conext SW4048 had been working fine for 14 months, and then all of a >> sudden recently stopped being able to charge the batteries from the >> generator. It is an off grid system. >> >> The inverter would start charging the batteries, but then about a minute >> later they would hear a relay click and the charging would stop. Then it >> would just keep cycling. If they turned everything off for a while, they >> could then turn it back on and charge for maybe 10 minutes before it would >> start cycling. They just have a crappy 4kw generator from Harbor Freight. >> >> I have not laid my own eyes on it yet, but will be there in the next day >> or two. Just wondering if anyone has experienced these symptoms and have a >> good idea of what to look for first. >> >> Thanks! >> -Dave >> >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com >> >> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design >> Certified B-Corporation since 2013 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Wed Dec 16 13:00:37 2020 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 10:00:37 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] El Sid replacement In-Reply-To: <25C0FF28-97BF-4493-8DAB-B89926BC6B8F@gmail.com> References: <25C0FF28-97BF-4493-8DAB-B89926BC6B8F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57abce63-b92a-3c82-5d02-45b059ff91ab@villagepowerdesign.com> Hey Jay, The thread I think you are referring to started on 9/14/20 with the title "Another Pump Question" hope that helps! jc > Jay > December 16, 2020 at 6:26 AM > Hi All > > I know this was discussed not too long ago but I can’t find the thread. > > I have someone looking to replace a 25 yr old March 809 24vac unit. > > He runs it off of grid power via a small transformer. > > Thoughts on replacement or the link info. > > Thanks > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Wed Dec 16 16:20:54 2020 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 16:20:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW4048 not charging from generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So as you all expected, it was definitely the generator. A combination of reducing the charge rate from the inverter and also not opening the choke all the way helped get a consistently barely acceptable frequency for the inverter to accept it. Without those changes, the frequency was mostly around 52Hz, when loaded. After, we got it to stay around 56Hz. Fortunately, the homeowner is open to getting a better generator. Thanks for the tips! *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 10:35 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > Often just adjusting the throttle screw is enough to get these low quality > generators back into the spec that the inverter will accept. I expect you > will find it well below 60 Hz and 240V (or 120V) when loaded heavily. Many > people never do any maintenance so don't be surprised if the air-filter is > clogged and the plugs need changed. > > As suggested, I'd probably set the AC input to ~50% of rated capacity of > the generator, maybe less. > > On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 8:03 AM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Wrenches >> You may have answered you question here, "crappy genny" if the voltage or >> the freq is to far out or just very dirty AC, the inverter will as you >> discribed, keep attempting to connect but due to one of the issues can't >> maintain a connection. >> Jerry >> NABCEP Inspector >> >> On Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 10:37 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I am going to service a system where the homeowner is telling me that >>> their Conext SW4048 had been working fine for 14 months, and then all of a >>> sudden recently stopped being able to charge the batteries from the >>> generator. It is an off grid system. >>> >>> The inverter would start charging the batteries, but then about a minute >>> later they would hear a relay click and the charging would stop. Then it >>> would just keep cycling. If they turned everything off for a while, they >>> could then turn it back on and charge for maybe 10 minutes before it would >>> start cycling. They just have a crappy 4kw generator from Harbor Freight. >>> >>> I have not laid my own eyes on it yet, but will be there in the next day >>> or two. Just wondering if anyone has experienced these symptoms and have a >>> good idea of what to look for first. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> -Dave >>> >>> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >>> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >>> >>> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 >>> www.taitem.com >>> >>> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design >>> Certified B-Corporation since 2013 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Wed Dec 16 18:36:29 2020 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 15:36:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MidNite SOB problem and possible solution Message-ID: Season's Greetings Wrenches We have been attempting to use MidNite SOB's with Sol-Ark inverters this year. In Canada we only need one SOB per string since our Code requires Rapid Shutdown for PV source or output circuits more than 1 meter from the array. However, not all the SOB's were closing the circuit when we had two strings on one MPPT - both when we combined two strings on the Sol-Ark PV input terminals or when we used MC4 Y connectors outside the Sol-Ark to combine two strings. MidNite had no solution for this back during the summer and tech support there only suggested that we had configured the system incorrectly or that we shouldn't combine strings that way. This array also had a very long underground run between the array and inverter. So, at that time, not knowing if it was distance, interference from something else or gremlins, we just took out all the MidNite equipment and installed a DC SunVolt Rapid Shutdown box. Diagnosing the problem was a challenge since only one of the parallel strings on each MPPT was not producing power at any given moment. Also, everything worked fine while I made voltage and current measurements but when I pushed the coil and wires into the JB I lost half my solar power. Anyway, today I solved the problem on a new system I was commissioning by wrapping the SOB Transmitter coil, with the positive conductors passing through it, in aluminum foil. I hypothesized that with the coil on the positive conductors, the negative conductors, which were very close to the coil, all of which was inside a metal junction box, were picking up a signal from the coil and this was interfering with the signal on the positive. It's a bit cludgy, but shielding the coil seems to be the solution. I'd love to hear if anyone else has had this problem and/or solution. Eric Smiley, MASc Project Manager, North Island E: eric at vecoop.ca T: 1-888-386-0116 ext 702 (toll free) C: 250-703-6004 W: viridianenergy.ca RENEWABLE POWER NOW -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Wed Dec 16 21:21:58 2020 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 18:21:58 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MidNite SOB problem and possible solution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92d64d88-af30-a1f3-b569-5a84904a2f92@midnitesolar.com> Eric, this is very interesting that the foil (Faraday shield) used in this way would help that situation ! A Faraday shield using aluminum foil will only shield electric fields and not magnetic fields of course so something interesting is going on here.   SO, the foil was not grounded in any way ? The mechanism should hopefully become obvious  after some thought and experimentation. We will definitely be looking into your fix. Than you ! boB On 12/16/2020 3:36 PM, Eric Smiley wrote: > Season's Greetings Wrenches > > We have been attempting to use MidNite SOB's with Sol-Ark inverters > this year. In Canada we only need one SOB per string since our Code > requires Rapid Shutdown for PV source or output circuits more than 1 > meter from the array. > > However, not all the SOB's were closing the circuit when we had two > strings on one MPPT - both when we combined two strings on the Sol-Ark > PV input terminals or when we used MC4 Y connectors outside the > Sol-Ark to combine two strings. MidNite had no solution for this back > during the summer and tech support there only suggested that we had > configured the system incorrectly or that we shouldn't combine strings > that way. This array also had a very long underground run between the > array and inverter. So, at that time, not knowing if it was distance, > interference from something else or gremlins, we just took out all the > MidNite equipment and installed a DC SunVolt Rapid Shutdown box. > > Diagnosing the problem was a challenge since only one of the parallel > strings on each MPPT was not producing power at any given moment. > Also, everything worked fine while I made voltage and current > measurements but when I pushed the coil and wires into the JB I lost > half my solar power. > Anyway, today I solved the problem on a new system I was commissioning > by wrapping the SOB Transmitter coil, with the positive conductors > passing through it, in aluminum foil. > > I hypothesized that with the coil on the positive conductors, the > negative conductors, which were very close to the coil, all of which > was inside a metal junction box, were picking up a signal from the > coil and this was interfering with the signal on the positive. > > It's a bit cludgy, but shielding the coil seems to be the solution. > > I'd love to hear if anyone else has had this problem and/or solution. > Eric Smiley, MASc > > Project Manager, North Island > > > E: eric at vecoop.ca > > T:  1-888-386-0116 ext 702 (toll free) > > C:  250-703-6004 > > W: viridianenergy.ca > > > > > RENEWABLE POWERNOW > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Dec 17 13:51:19 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 10:51:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote Alert and Bootstrapping on Sunny Island AC Coupled System Message-ID: <8bfc82914d989d119333d9538f7ec6fa@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I have a client living off-grid with a Sunny Island system AC coupled to Sunny Boy inverters. They returned from being away to find the system entirely shutdown due to cloudy weather, a dead generator cranking battery and a water leak which ran two booster pumps continuously over a period of time. The displays on the Sunny Islands were blank and therefore the inverters would not start. We put a new cranking battery into the generator and got it started, but with no life in the Sunny Islands, neither the generator nor the Sunny Boys had any possibility of reviving the discharged 6,000 amp-hour lead acid battery array. Fortunately after disconnecting the batteries for ten minutes, the voltage rebounded just enough to start the Sunny Islands which allowed the generator to connect and we were back in operation. I am not sure why the displays went dead on the Sunny Islands. I am on my way back out to download and examine the SD card logs. I have developed an Excel tool to help me tabulate the data. Maybe there is some clue in those files. In the meantime I have these questions that those of you with more Sunny Island experience might be able to answer: 1. Is it normal for the display screens on the Sunny Islands to go blank after shutting off due to low battery voltage? 2. Is there an up-to-date option for remote monitoring that will send an email if certain error conditions occur? 3. What would you do with a 6k AH battery bank with a voltage too low to start a battery inverter or solar charge controller? Thanks in advance. The wrenches hive-mind is a huge asset. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 15:12:07 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 12:12:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote Alert and Bootstrapping on Sunny Island AC Coupled System In-Reply-To: <8bfc82914d989d119333d9538f7ec6fa@mail.gmail.com> References: <8bfc82914d989d119333d9538f7ec6fa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches This is why AC coupling is not the best solution but you can program the SI to protect low voltage so if this happens you still have headroom to reboot the system, also program the GT inverters not to wait 300 sec to start. I would also suggest having a 48 vdc charger wired directly to the gen set as a fail safe charger to wake up everything. Jerry On Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 11:55 AM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > I have a client living off-grid with a Sunny Island system AC coupled to > Sunny Boy inverters. They returned from being away to find the system > entirely shutdown due to cloudy weather, a dead generator cranking battery > and a water leak which ran two booster pumps continuously over a period of > time. The displays on the Sunny Islands were blank and therefore the > inverters would not start. > > > > We put a new cranking battery into the generator and got it started, but > with no life in the Sunny Islands, neither the generator nor the Sunny Boys > had any possibility of reviving the discharged 6,000 amp-hour lead acid > battery array. Fortunately after disconnecting the batteries for ten > minutes, the voltage rebounded just enough to start the Sunny Islands which > allowed the generator to connect and we were back in operation. > > > > I am not sure why the displays went dead on the Sunny Islands. I am on my > way back out to download and examine the SD card logs. I have developed an > Excel tool to help me tabulate the data. Maybe there is some clue in those > files. > > > > In the meantime I have these questions that those of you with more Sunny > Island experience might be able to answer: > > > > 1. Is it normal for the display screens on the Sunny Islands to go > blank after shutting off due to low battery voltage? > > > > 2. Is there an up-to-date option for remote monitoring that will send > an email if certain error conditions occur? > > > > 3. What would you do with a 6k AH battery bank with a voltage too low > to start a battery inverter or solar charge controller? > > > > Thanks in advance. The wrenches hive-mind is a huge asset. > > > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 15:49:06 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 13:49:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol_ark lithium battery closed loop com Message-ID: <31B472DC-96D4-4641-B2C2-EFFFC189E148@gmail.com> HI All, Can anyone tell me and also point me to any data/manuals etc that show if and which lithium battery the Sol-Ark 8/12 inverter directly communicates with? I can’t find anything on their site but someone was just asking me about it. And they said yes it could but he didn’t have any data or how to do it, instructions etc. thanks in advance jay peltz power From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 16:20:44 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 13:20:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol_ark lithium battery closed loop com In-Reply-To: <31B472DC-96D4-4641-B2C2-EFFFC189E148@gmail.com> References: <31B472DC-96D4-4641-B2C2-EFFFC189E148@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Blue planet are integrated with sol ark Jerry On Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 1:02 PM jay wrote: > HI All, > > Can anyone tell me and also point me to any data/manuals etc that show if > and which lithium battery the Sol-Ark 8/12 inverter directly communicates > with? > > I can’t find anything on their site but someone was just asking me about > it. And they said yes it could but he didn’t have any data or how to do > it, instructions etc. > > > thanks in advance > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solsierra1 at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 16:27:00 2020 From: solsierra1 at gmail.com (Vic Guillot) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 13:27:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol_ark lithium battery closed loop com In-Reply-To: References: <31B472DC-96D4-4641-B2C2-EFFFC189E148@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sol Ark uses the new Simpliphi batteries which communicate with their inverters. Vic Guillot Vic Guillot Sol Sierra, Inc. 209.795.3554 office 209.768.3560 mobile/text On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 1:21 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > Blue planet are integrated with sol ark > Jerry > > On Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 1:02 PM jay wrote: > >> HI All, >> >> Can anyone tell me and also point me to any data/manuals etc that show >> if and which lithium battery the Sol-Ark 8/12 inverter directly >> communicates with? >> >> I can’t find anything on their site but someone was just asking me about >> it. And they said yes it could but he didn’t have any data or how to do >> it, instructions etc. >> >> >> thanks in advance >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 16:29:16 2020 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (MiJo Nels) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 21:29:16 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol_ark lithium battery closed loop com In-Reply-To: References: <31B472DC-96D4-4641-B2C2-EFFFC189E148@gmail.com> , Message-ID: Fortress batteries will also soon have this topology .. Joe Nelson Project Manager C-46/C-10 Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation CSL# 868816 www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com 530-273-4422 (Office) 530-217-8385 (Cell)      ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Vic Guillot Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 1:27:00 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sol_ark lithium battery closed loop com Sol Ark uses the new Simpliphi batteries which communicate with their inverters. Vic Guillot [https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1i6WANcT60uhIN__gmqu8lrZpoi6C97cR&export=download] Vic Guillot Sol Sierra, Inc. 209.795.3554 office 209.768.3560 mobile/text On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 1:21 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: Wrenches Blue planet are integrated with sol ark Jerry On Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 1:02 PM jay > wrote: HI All, Can anyone tell me and also point me to any data/manuals etc that show if and which lithium battery the Sol-Ark 8/12 inverter directly communicates with? I can’t find anything on their site but someone was just asking me about it. And they said yes it could but he didn’t have any data or how to do it, instructions etc. thanks in advance jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Dec 17 16:58:48 2020 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 13:58:48 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote Alert and Bootstrapping on Sunny Island AC Coupled System In-Reply-To: References: <8bfc82914d989d119333d9538f7ec6fa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: We had one Sunny Island system go totally dead years ago. The only way to get it running again was to charge the batteries, which we did in groups of two (6 volt batteries each) with a heavy duty 12 VDC automotive charger. It took about a week to charge all the batteries. Jerry, it's good to know that there are 48 VDC chargers out there. Do you have a model you like? William, once the battery bank voltage goes really low (I can't recall the cutoff voltage) the Sunny Island displays indeed turn completely off. We stopped installing Sunny Islands about 3 or 4 years ago. It is a solid product, but definitely part of the older generation of battery inverters that take a lot of skill to install and program properly to set the project up for success. The Sunny Portal at the time could give the owner a little insight into their battery state of charge, but I don't think it sends push notifications in real time. I think it will send error event notifications but they are delayed. You might check with SMA about the potential there. August On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 12:12 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > This is why AC coupling is not the best solution but > you can program the SI to protect low voltage so if this happens you still > have headroom to reboot the system, also program the GT inverters not to > wait 300 sec to start. I would also suggest having a 48 vdc charger wired > directly to the gen set as a fail safe charger to wake up everything. > Jerry > > On Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 11:55 AM William Miller > wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I have a client living off-grid with a Sunny Island system AC coupled to >> Sunny Boy inverters. They returned from being away to find the system >> entirely shutdown due to cloudy weather, a dead generator cranking battery >> and a water leak which ran two booster pumps continuously over a period of >> time. The displays on the Sunny Islands were blank and therefore the >> inverters would not start. >> >> >> >> We put a new cranking battery into the generator and got it started, but >> with no life in the Sunny Islands, neither the generator nor the Sunny Boys >> had any possibility of reviving the discharged 6,000 amp-hour lead acid >> battery array. Fortunately after disconnecting the batteries for ten >> minutes, the voltage rebounded just enough to start the Sunny Islands which >> allowed the generator to connect and we were back in operation. >> >> >> >> I am not sure why the displays went dead on the Sunny Islands. I am on >> my way back out to download and examine the SD card logs. I have developed >> an Excel tool to help me tabulate the data. Maybe there is some clue in >> those files. >> >> >> >> In the meantime I have these questions that those of you with more Sunny >> Island experience might be able to answer: >> >> >> >> 1. Is it normal for the display screens on the Sunny Islands to go >> blank after shutting off due to low battery voltage? >> >> >> >> 2. Is there an up-to-date option for remote monitoring that will send >> an email if certain error conditions occur? >> >> >> >> 3. What would you do with a 6k AH battery bank with a voltage too low >> to start a battery inverter or solar charge controller? >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance. The wrenches hive-mind is a huge asset. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Dec 17 17:49:12 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 17:49:12 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote Alert and Bootstrapping on Sunny Island AC Coupled System In-Reply-To: <8bfc82914d989d119333d9538f7ec6fa@mail.gmail.com> References: <8bfc82914d989d119333d9538f7ec6fa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3B811763-9815-479B-9FB6-3980EA383EF7@swnl.net> This is totally normal w/ the displays. There IS an emergency charge setting…. You put AC into the AC out essentially AC coupling w/ the genset. Page 222 section 20.10. This works only w/ FLA batteries. What was the issue w/ the generator battery? I install a small AC charger for the generator battery. There are “ auto start functions” 234.07 Auto gen start is also 235.01 Is there internet/ cell at the site? > On Dec 17, 2020, at 1:51 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > I have a client living off-grid with a Sunny Island system AC coupled to Sunny Boy inverters. They returned from being away to find the system entirely shutdown due to cloudy weather, a dead generator cranking battery and a water leak which ran two booster pumps continuously over a period of time. The displays on the Sunny Islands were blank and therefore the inverters would not start. > > We put a new cranking battery into the generator and got it started, but with no life in the Sunny Islands, neither the generator nor the Sunny Boys had any possibility of reviving the discharged 6,000 amp-hour lead acid battery array. Fortunately after disconnecting the batteries for ten minutes, the voltage rebounded just enough to start the Sunny Islands which allowed the generator to connect and we were back in operation. > > I am not sure why the displays went dead on the Sunny Islands. I am on my way back out to download and examine the SD card logs. I have developed an Excel tool to help me tabulate the data. Maybe there is some clue in those files. > > In the meantime I have these questions that those of you with more Sunny Island experience might be able to answer: > > 1. Is it normal for the display screens on the Sunny Islands to go blank after shutting off due to low battery voltage? > > 2. Is there an up-to-date option for remote monitoring that will send an email if certain error conditions occur? > > 3. What would you do with a 6k AH battery bank with a voltage too low to start a battery inverter or solar charge controller? > > Thanks in advance. The wrenches hive-mind is a huge asset. > > William Miller > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 17:51:37 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 17:51:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue planet integration Message-ID: Hi All, Speaking of battery integration, I have been waiting for almost 2 years for Blue Planet to integrate their BMS into the Schneider Xanbus comms. I have asked them many times and continue to get the answer "sometime, maybe soon". Does anyone have any inside info on whether this is potentially going to happen anytime soon? My clients have been waiting patiently (less so recently)... Thanks for any intel, Howie *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 17:56:09 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 17:56:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol_ark lithium battery closed loop com In-Reply-To: References: <31B472DC-96D4-4641-B2C2-EFFFC189E148@gmail.com> Message-ID: Fortress eFlex Blue Planet Blue Ion 2.0 Simpliphi Amplipi Discover AES Storz Power All batteries that I believe have closed loop capabilities with the Sol Ark On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 5:48 PM MiJo Nels wrote: > Fortress batteries will also soon have this topology .. > > Joe Nelson > > Project Manager C-46/C-10 > Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation > > CSL# 868816 > www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com > 530-273-4422 (Office) > > 530-217-8385 (Cell) > >  > >     > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Vic Guillot > *Sent:* Thursday, December 17, 2020 1:27:00 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] sol_ark lithium battery closed loop com > > Sol Ark uses the new Simpliphi batteries which communicate with their > inverters. > Vic Guillot > > Vic Guillot > Sol Sierra, Inc. > 209.795.3554 office > 209.768.3560 mobile/text > > > > On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 1:21 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > Wrenches > Blue planet are integrated with sol ark > Jerry > > On Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 1:02 PM jay wrote: > > HI All, > > Can anyone tell me and also point me to any data/manuals etc that show if > and which lithium battery the Sol-Ark 8/12 inverter directly communicates > with? > > I can’t find anything on their site but someone was just asking me about > it. And they said yes it could but he didn’t have any data or how to do > it, instructions etc. > > > thanks in advance > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 18:03:40 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 18:03:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote Alert and Bootstrapping on Sunny Island AC Coupled System In-Reply-To: References: <8bfc82914d989d119333d9538f7ec6fa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: My memory is that you need to disconnect the Sunny Island from all AC and DC voltages for 15-20 minutes before the low voltage lockout releases (I think there is a small LED light on the internal circuit board which turns off). Once that happens, you can reconnect the batteries and even with fairly low voltage the SIs will boot up at which point the generator can sync up and start charging the batteries. Just make sure to run the gennie for a bit before you try this to warm it up, and set the connection time of the inverters to the generator to be as short as possible so theSI's don't shut off on Low Voltage before they do connect. As far as the Sunny Portal, I too haven't messed with it for a few years and SMA had just done a major overhaul of the sites capabilities, so I didn't really explore it. And it probably now has more capability than that upgrade afforded. Howie *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 4:59 PM August Goers wrote: > We had one Sunny Island system go totally dead years ago. The only way to > get it running again was to charge the batteries, which we did in groups of > two (6 volt batteries each) with a heavy duty 12 VDC automotive charger. It > took about a week to charge all the batteries. Jerry, it's good to know > that there are 48 VDC chargers out there. Do you have a model you like? > > William, once the battery bank voltage goes really low (I can't recall the > cutoff voltage) the Sunny Island displays indeed turn completely off. > > We stopped installing Sunny Islands about 3 or 4 years ago. It is a solid > product, but definitely part of the older generation of battery inverters > that take a lot of skill to install and program properly to set the project > up for success. The Sunny Portal at the time could give the owner a little > insight into their battery state of charge, but I don't think it sends push > notifications in real time. I think it will send error event notifications > but they are delayed. You might check with SMA about the potential there. > > August > > > On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 12:12 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Wrenches >> This is why AC coupling is not the best solution but >> you can program the SI to protect low voltage so if this happens you >> still have headroom to reboot the system, also program the GT inverters not >> to wait 300 sec to start. I would also suggest having a 48 vdc charger >> wired directly to the gen set as a fail safe charger to wake up everything. >> Jerry >> >> On Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 11:55 AM William Miller >> wrote: >> >>> Friends: >>> >>> >>> >>> I have a client living off-grid with a Sunny Island system AC coupled to >>> Sunny Boy inverters. They returned from being away to find the system >>> entirely shutdown due to cloudy weather, a dead generator cranking battery >>> and a water leak which ran two booster pumps continuously over a period of >>> time. The displays on the Sunny Islands were blank and therefore the >>> inverters would not start. >>> >>> >>> >>> We put a new cranking battery into the generator and got it started, but >>> with no life in the Sunny Islands, neither the generator nor the Sunny Boys >>> had any possibility of reviving the discharged 6,000 amp-hour lead acid >>> battery array. Fortunately after disconnecting the batteries for ten >>> minutes, the voltage rebounded just enough to start the Sunny Islands which >>> allowed the generator to connect and we were back in operation. >>> >>> >>> >>> I am not sure why the displays went dead on the Sunny Islands. I am on >>> my way back out to download and examine the SD card logs. I have developed >>> an Excel tool to help me tabulate the data. Maybe there is some clue in >>> those files. >>> >>> >>> >>> In the meantime I have these questions that those of you with more Sunny >>> Island experience might be able to answer: >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. Is it normal for the display screens on the Sunny Islands to go >>> blank after shutting off due to low battery voltage? >>> >>> >>> >>> 2. Is there an up-to-date option for remote monitoring that will send >>> an email if certain error conditions occur? >>> >>> >>> >>> 3. What would you do with a 6k AH battery bank with a voltage too low >>> to start a battery inverter or solar charge controller? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks in advance. The wrenches hive-mind is a huge asset. >>> >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Dec 17 18:05:10 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 18:05:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote Alert and Bootstrapping on Sunny Island AC Coupled System In-Reply-To: <3B811763-9815-479B-9FB6-3980EA383EF7@swnl.net> References: <8bfc82914d989d119333d9538f7ec6fa@mail.gmail.com> <3B811763-9815-479B-9FB6-3980EA383EF7@swnl.net> Message-ID: <23e1c55e-53fd-338a-1f79-7640ead6fab6@solarray.com> Broken record here: DC coupled array, even if its just 1 kW.  That failure is classic AC coupled death spiral.  Leak caused the pump to run, pump ran the battery down, Sunny Island shut off, now no gen start or PV. We're trying to fix an orphaned SMA system now, the gen start is particularly problematic, because we can only see to trigger it on %SOC, not Vdc.  That's a problem, since as batteries age, or if the SOC metering otherwise gets off, then the generator doesn't start before the Sunny Island shuts down.  triggering on %SOC is all fine and good, as long as it has backup override that starts the generator before the batteries get to 44 V. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 12/17/20 5:49 PM, Tump wrote: > This is totally normal w/ the displays. There IS an emergency charge > setting…. You put AC into the AC out essentially AC coupling w/ the > genset.  Page 222 section 20.10. This works only w/ FLA batteries. > What was the issue w/ the generator battery? I install a small AC > charger for the generator battery. There are “ auto start functions” > 234.07 Auto gen start is also 235.01 > Is there internet/ cell at the site? >> On Dec 17, 2020, at 1:51 PM, William Miller > > wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> I have a client living off-grid with a Sunny Island system AC coupled >> to Sunny Boy inverters.  They returned from being away to find the >> system entirely shutdown due to cloudy weather, a dead generator >> cranking battery and a water leak which ran two booster pumps >> continuously over a period of time.  The displays on the Sunny >> Islands were blank and therefore the inverters would not start. >> >> We put a new cranking battery into the generator and got it started, >> but with no life in the Sunny Islands, neither the generator nor the >> Sunny Boys had any possibility of reviving the discharged 6,000 >> amp-hour lead acid battery array.  Fortunately after disconnecting >> the batteries for ten minutes, the voltage rebounded just enough to >> start the Sunny Islands which allowed the generator to connect and we >> were back in operation. >> >> I am not sure why the displays went dead on the Sunny Islands.  I am >> on my way back out to download and examine the SD card logs.  I have >> developed an Excel tool to help me tabulate the data.  Maybe there is >> some clue in those files. >> >> In the meantime I have these questions that those of you with more >> Sunny Island experience might be able to answer: >> >> 1.Is it normal for the display screens on the Sunny Islands to go >> blank after shutting off due to low battery voltage? >> >> 2.Is there an up-to-date option for remote monitoring that will send >> an email if certain error conditions occur? >> >> 3.What would you do with a 6k AH battery bank with a voltage too low >> to start a battery inverter or solar charge controller? >> >> Thanks in advance.  The wrenches hive-mind is a huge asset. >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> *Tump at swnl.net >> **www.SWNL.net* >> >> Solarwinds Northernlights *//* >> */       Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California/**/ >> /**/     207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401 /* >> *//**/Blair "TUMP" May/* >> >> */ ********  MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> /**//**/NABCEP    "Certified PV Installer"/**/ >> /**/ >>               ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> /**/Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"/* >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Dec 17 18:21:18 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 15:21:18 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue planet integration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7b4c0d1cff5f4d3eda0fdd1f9570bd99@127.0.0.1> Schneider will only integrate closed loop thru the Gateway Modbus input for all other batteries. Only Discover AES was allowed to go into xanbus. I believe this is because the engineers at both companies were from Xantrex, pre Schneider and worked together. These systems configure in about 2 minutes from start. Really fast / nice combo for me and my clients! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 17 Dec 2020 17:51:37 -0500, Howie Michaelson wrote: Hi All, Speaking of battery integration, I have been waiting for almost 2 years for Blue Planet to integrate their BMS into the Schneider Xanbus comms. I have asked them many times and continue to get the answer "sometime, maybe soon". Does anyone have any inside info on whether this is potentially going to happen anytime soon? My clients have been waiting patiently (less so recently)... Thanks for any intel, Howie Howie Michaelson SUN CATCHER NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(tm) Solar Electric Systems Sales ">802-272-0004 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 18:17:28 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 16:17:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol_ark lithium battery closed loop com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hats off to sol- ark. Outback, Schneider, magnum, etc should take note and get a move on with this integration Jay Peltz power. > On Dec 17, 2020, at 3:56 PM, Chris Sparadeo wrote: > >  > Fortress eFlex > Blue Planet Blue Ion 2.0 > Simpliphi Amplipi > Discover AES > Storz Power > > All batteries that I believe have closed loop capabilities with the Sol Ark > >> On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 5:48 PM MiJo Nels wrote: >> Fortress batteries will also soon have this topology .. >> >> Joe Nelson >> >> Project Manager C-46/C-10 >> Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation >> >> CSL# 868816 >> www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com >> 530-273-4422 (Office) >> >> 530-217-8385 (Cell) >> >>  >> >>     >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Vic Guillot >> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 1:27:00 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sol_ark lithium battery closed loop com >> >> Sol Ark uses the new Simpliphi batteries which communicate with their inverters. >> Vic Guillot >> >> >> Vic Guillot >> Sol Sierra, Inc. >> 209.795.3554 office >> 209.768.3560 mobile/text >> >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 1:21 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: >> Wrenches >> Blue planet are integrated with sol ark >> Jerry >> >> On Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 1:02 PM jay wrote: >> HI All, >> >> Can anyone tell me and also point me to any data/manuals etc that show if and which lithium battery the Sol-Ark 8/12 inverter directly communicates with? >> >> I can’t find anything on their site but someone was just asking me about it. And they said yes it could but he didn’t have any data or how to do it, instructions etc. >> >> >> thanks in advance >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Dec 17 19:12:35 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 16:12:35 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?sol=5Fark_lithium_battery_closed_loop_co?= =?utf-8?q?m?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <70914b0ad5b7e7c10a72a65167376107@127.0.0.1> Jay, The codes are out there from Schneider at least. You want them? I would say it is up to the battery company to get it done. I know one of the Fortress batteries E-f;lex barely works and does not get out to the Insight cloud reliably. The other Fortress is definitely not closed loop yet for Schneider. I would also cut everyone some slack in this most forgettable year! Almost cheers time on the west coast! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 17 Dec 2020 16:17:28 -0700, Jay wrote: Hats off to sol- ark. Outback, Schneider, magnum, etc should take note and get a move on with this integration Jay Peltz power. On Dec 17, 2020, at 3:56 PM, Chris Sparadeo wrote: Fortress eFlex Blue Planet Blue Ion 2.0 Simpliphi Amplipi Discover AES Storz Power All batteries that I believe have closed loop capabilities with the Sol Ark On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 5:48 PM MiJo Nels wrote: Fortress batteries will also soon have this topology .. Joe Nelson Project Manager C-46/C-10 Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation CSL# 868816 www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com [4] 530-273-4422 (Office) 530-217-8385 (Cell)      ------------------------- FROM: RE-wrenches on behalf of Vic Guillot SENT: Thursday, December 17, 2020 1:27:00 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] sol_ark lithium battery closed loop com Sol Ark uses the new Simpliphi batteries which communicate with their inverters. Vic Guillot Vic Guillot Sol Sierra, Inc. 209.795.3554 office 209.768.3560 mobile/text On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 1:21 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Blue planet are integrated with sol ark Jerry On Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 1:02 PM jay wrote: HI All, Can anyone tell me and also point me to any data/manuals etc that show if and which lithium battery the Sol-Ark 8/12 inverter directly communicates with? I can't find anything on their site but someone was just asking me about it. And they said yes it could but he didn't have any data or how to do it, instructions etc. thanks in advance jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [15] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [18] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [20] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [21] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [22] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [23] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [24] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [25] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [26] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [27] -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com [4] http://www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com [5] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] mailto:solsierra1 at gmail.com [7] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com [9] mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com [10] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [13] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [16] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [19] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [21] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [22] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [23] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [24] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [25] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [26] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [27] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 19:40:23 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 16:40:23 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue planet integration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Is the holdup Blue planet or Schneider l heard this way back when and Sol ark did it so both outback and Schneider need to do this and soon. On Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 2:51 PM Howie Michaelson wrote: > Hi All, > Speaking of battery integration, I have been waiting for almost 2 years > for Blue Planet to integrate their BMS into the Schneider Xanbus comms. I > have asked them many times and continue to get the answer "sometime, maybe > soon". Does anyone have any inside info on whether this is potentially > going to happen anytime soon? My clients have been waiting patiently (less > so recently)... > Thanks for any intel, > Howie > > *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* > > *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* > > *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Thu Dec 17 20:09:36 2020 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 17:09:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue planet integration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <07D362F1-F740-4CD5-B40C-23C34628AC78@me.com> Greetings Wrenches, I believe it’s extremely close now. It will be worth it! I’ll let someone know this has come up. I’m in a similar scenario integrating them with an SMA Multicluster box system. They’re being extremely responsible and certain that when it’s released all of the bugs are worked out and of the same high integrity we’d expect with any of their products. Just like waiting for all of the new exciting Midnite Solar products, the longer we wait the better they will be! Nick A Lucchese NABCEP Certified PV Installer #041704-27 Planet Home, Lucchese Solar & Green Energy Costa Rica www.lucchesesolar.com 530-277-0669 > On Dec 17, 2020, at 2:51 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > > Hi All, > Speaking of battery integration, I have been waiting for almost 2 years for Blue Planet to integrate their BMS into the Schneider Xanbus comms. I have asked them many times and continue to get the answer "sometime, maybe soon". Does anyone have any inside info on whether this is potentially going to happen anytime soon? My clients have been waiting patiently (less so recently)... > Thanks for any intel, > Howie > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > Nick A Lucchese NABCEP Certified PV Installer #041704-27 Planet Home, Lucchese Solar & Green Energy Costa Rica General Contractor # 808851 www.lucchesesolar.com 530-277-0669 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 20:12:38 2020 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 20:12:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue planet integration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Apparently the holdup is on Blue Planets part. Dave, what is the functional difference between integration through there Xanbus or through the gateway? Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 7:40 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > Is the holdup Blue planet or Schneider l heard this way back when and Sol > ark did it so both outback and Schneider need to do this and soon. > > On Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 2:51 PM Howie Michaelson > wrote: > >> Hi All, >> Speaking of battery integration, I have been waiting for almost 2 years >> for Blue Planet to integrate their BMS into the Schneider Xanbus comms. I >> have asked them many times and continue to get the answer "sometime, maybe >> soon". Does anyone have any inside info on whether this is potentially >> going to happen anytime soon? My clients have been waiting patiently (less >> so recently)... >> Thanks for any intel, >> Howie >> >> *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* >> >> *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* >> >> *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Dec 17 22:07:59 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 19:07:59 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue planet integration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Howie ! After happy hour here for clients and I saw yours... The functional difference between xanbus or anyone else like Outback networking, is it is proprietary and held close to not let others copy or do damage to a network. Coming in thru Modbus or Canbus is controlled and the company network can HOPEFULLY disregard or ignore bad codes that may cause issues. I am not a programmer and my background was working in aerospace hardware with some very talented people. They still guide me. I also know how expensive engineering time is. If you want free shipping, it is not going to happen. You have to pay to play and if I was a battery manufacture and I wanted to make this happen, I would write a check! ! ! This is also the wrong time of year. Most are going home until 2021. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 17 Dec 2020 20:12:38 -0500, Howie Michaelson wrote: Apparently the holdup is on Blue Planets part. Dave, what is the functional difference between integration through there Xanbus or through the gateway? Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(tm) Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales border-left: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left: 1ex;"> Wrenches Is the holdup Blue planet or Schneider l heard this way back when and Sol ark did it so both outback and Schneider need to do this and soon. On Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 2:51 PM Howie Michaelson wrote: Hi All, Speaking of battery integration, I have been waiting for almost 2 years for Blue Planet to integrate their BMS into the Schneider Xanbus comms. I have asked them many times and continue to get the answer "sometime, maybe soon". Does anyone have any inside info on whether this is potentially going to happen anytime soon? My clients have been waiting patiently (less so recently)... Thanks for any intel, Howie Howie Michaelson SUN CATCHER NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(tm) Solar Electric Systems Sales ">802-272-0004 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [13] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [16] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com [4] mailto:Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [14] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Dec 17 23:04:26 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 20:04:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote Alert and Bootstrapping on Sunny Island AC Coupled System Message-ID: <54e1d356bd6a1c99baef630bb6456088@mail.gmail.com> Friends: Thanks for the many replies. Here is what I have learned, paired with the questions. 1. Is it normal for the display screens on the Sunny Islands to go blank after shutting off due to low battery voltage? *Apparently this is a feature, not a bug--the display is supposed to go blank. There is a fault-clearing procedure that requires you remove all input power for 15 minutes and it worked here. The system was responding as designed--it was not “bricked”.* 2. Is there an up-to-date option for remote monitoring that will send an email if certain error conditions occur? *No one is telling me any new SMA remote access system is much different from the old system of port-forwarding the web-box and then going blind trying to navigate the interface. There is a remote-alert for some new SMA inverters, but not Sunny Island, which needs it the most. I don’t think SMA can hold a candle to OpticsRE in this area. This alone is a deal-killer for me spec’ing Sunny Island in the future.* 3. What would you do with a 6k AH battery bank with a voltage too low to start a battery inverter or solar charge controller? *My first reaction was the same as those that suggested AC-coupled off-grid architecture is fundamentally flawed due to this predicament. In thinking about it further, the same is actually true for DC coupled systems: if battery voltage gets low enough, many PV charge controllers are not able to startup and charge a battery bank. There is a warehouse-style, 48 volt forklift charger next door I could have for the asking, but it was not needed for this outage and I doubt it will be needed in the future.* Thanks again. The wrenches list rocks! William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Dec 18 09:32:24 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 09:32:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote Alert and Bootstrapping on Sunny Island AC Coupled System In-Reply-To: <54e1d356bd6a1c99baef630bb6456088@mail.gmail.com> References: <54e1d356bd6a1c99baef630bb6456088@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <861F0BCD-7A4F-449C-A189-84C8148B3592@swnl.net> I have long been a supporter & installer of the SMA SI product line, but their support and availability has led me to find other products. Outback Schneider products like Victron with their smart phone interface and their "Virtual remote monitoring” sunsets the SMA product line. Thats not to say that Victron is the easiest to set up but it does offer other advantages. > On Dec 17, 2020, at 11:04 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > Thanks for the many replies. Here is what I have learned, paired with the questions. > > 1. Is it normal for the display screens on the Sunny Islands to go blank after shutting off due to low battery voltage? Apparently this is a feature, not a bug--the display is supposed to go blank. There is a fault-clearing procedure that requires you remove all input power for 15 minutes and it worked here. The system was responding as designed--it was not “bricked”. > > 2. Is there an up-to-date option for remote monitoring that will send an email if certain error conditions occur? No one is telling me any new SMA remote access system is much different from the old system of port-forwarding the web-box and then going blind trying to navigate the interface. There is a remote-alert for some new SMA inverters, but not Sunny Island, which needs it the most. I don’t think SMA can hold a candle to OpticsRE in this area. This alone is a deal-killer for me spec’ing Sunny Island in the future. > 3. What would you do with a 6k AH battery bank with a voltage too low to start a battery inverter or solar charge controller? My first reaction was the same as those that suggested AC-coupled off-grid architecture is fundamentally flawed due to this predicament. In thinking about it further, the same is actually true for DC coupled systems: if battery voltage gets low enough, many PV charge controllers are not able to startup and charge a battery bank. There is a warehouse-style, 48 volt forklift charger next door I could have for the asking, but it was not needed for this outage and I doubt it will be needed in the future. > > Thanks again. The wrenches list rocks! > > William Miller > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 10:33:06 2020 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 07:33:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol_ark lithium battery closed loop com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Agree On Fri, Dec 18, 2020, 3:18 AM Jay wrote: > Hats off to sol- ark. > > Outback, Schneider, magnum, etc should take note and get a move on with > this integration > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > On Dec 17, 2020, at 3:56 PM, Chris Sparadeo > wrote: > >  > Fortress eFlex > Blue Planet Blue Ion 2.0 > Simpliphi Amplipi > Discover AES > Storz Power > > All batteries that I believe have closed loop capabilities with the Sol > Ark > > On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 5:48 PM MiJo Nels > wrote: > >> Fortress batteries will also soon have this topology .. >> >> Joe Nelson >> >> Project Manager C-46/C-10 >> Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation >> >> CSL# 868816 >> www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com >> 530-273-4422 (Office) >> >> 530-217-8385 (Cell) >> >>  >> >>     >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Vic Guillot >> *Sent:* Thursday, December 17, 2020 1:27:00 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] sol_ark lithium battery closed loop com >> >> Sol Ark uses the new Simpliphi batteries which communicate with their >> inverters. >> Vic Guillot >> >> Vic Guillot >> Sol Sierra, Inc. >> 209.795.3554 office >> 209.768.3560 mobile/text >> >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 1:21 PM Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >> Wrenches >> Blue planet are integrated with sol ark >> Jerry >> >> On Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 1:02 PM jay wrote: >> >> HI All, >> >> Can anyone tell me and also point me to any data/manuals etc that show >> if and which lithium battery the Sol-Ark 8/12 inverter directly >> communicates with? >> >> I can’t find anything on their site but someone was just asking me about >> it. And they said yes it could but he didn’t have any data or how to do >> it, instructions etc. >> >> >> thanks in advance >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Fri Dec 18 14:32:11 2020 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 19:32:11 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote Alert and Bootstrapping on Sunny Island AC Coupled System In-Reply-To: <861F0BCD-7A4F-449C-A189-84C8148B3592@swnl.net> References: <54e1d356bd6a1c99baef630bb6456088@mail.gmail.com> <861F0BCD-7A4F-449C-A189-84C8148B3592@swnl.net> Message-ID: <3ac7f60a7d6a4a2da32dba479f0e9907@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Question: Is there an up-to-date option for remote monitoring that will send an email if certain error conditions occur? The old webbox can be programmed to email you error notifications, as they occur. Need to program the webbox with an email server to use. Sunnyportal does as well, but there is an unpredictable lag time there. There are two major issues, however, and I am baffled why they would program like this. First, the emails are encoded in Base64 format, so you need to manually convert that to readable text. Ok, fine. Second, once that is done, you get an error code like this: Sunny WebBox event report for xxxxxx Sunny WebBox serial number: xxxxxxxxx ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2020-11-20 15:10 SI5048UH:xxxxxxxxxx Warning: Warning / 7xx SYS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ created on:: 2020-11-20 15:10 This is an automatically generated e-mail. Please do not reply. I cannot fathom why they would go to this extent, but to not display the entire error code. I want to know if it's a 710, 720, etc. 7xx is near useless. Though can get a general idea if being bombarded with errors that something is wrong. As best as I can tell the only way to get the full error code is to pull data from the SD card on the Sunny Island. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tump Sent: December-18-20 6:32 AM To: william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote Alert and Bootstrapping on Sunny Island AC Coupled System I have long been a supporter & installer of the SMA SI product line, but their support and availability has led me to find other products. Outback Schneider products like Victron with their smart phone interface and their "Virtual remote monitoring” sunsets the SMA product line. Thats not to say that Victron is the easiest to set up but it does offer other advantages. On Dec 17, 2020, at 11:04 PM, William Miller > wrote: Friends: Thanks for the many replies. Here is what I have learned, paired with the questions. 1. Is it normal for the display screens on the Sunny Islands to go blank after shutting off due to low battery voltage? Apparently this is a feature, not a bug--the display is supposed to go blank. There is a fault-clearing procedure that requires you remove all input power for 15 minutes and it worked here. The system was responding as designed--it was not “bricked”. 2. Is there an up-to-date option for remote monitoring that will send an email if certain error conditions occur? No one is telling me any new SMA remote access system is much different from the old system of port-forwarding the web-box and then going blind trying to navigate the interface. There is a remote-alert for some new SMA inverters, but not Sunny Island, which needs it the most. I don’t think SMA can hold a candle to OpticsRE in this area. This alone is a deal-killer for me spec’ing Sunny Island in the future. 3. What would you do with a 6k AH battery bank with a voltage too low to start a battery inverter or solar charge controller? My first reaction was the same as those that suggested AC-coupled off-grid architecture is fundamentally flawed due to this predicament. In thinking about it further, the same is actually true for DC coupled systems: if battery voltage gets low enough, many PV charge controllers are not able to startup and charge a battery bank. There is a warehouse-style, 48 volt forklift charger next door I could have for the asking, but it was not needed for this outage and I doubt it will be needed in the future. Thanks again. The wrenches list rocks! William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Dec 19 02:19:31 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 23:19:31 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote Alert and Bootstrapping on Sunny Island AC Coupled System-Follow up Message-ID: <3283babad91dbdfbedc64f1a954417a0@mail.gmail.com> Wrenches: I found some time to review the .evt and .log files from the primary Sunny Island inverter. Prior to 12/8/20 the system was running normally with a generator run averaging 6 hours about every other day. On 12/8 at 06:00 the system tried to start the generator. There was no indication the generator delivered voltage to the system. The system tried to start the generator 168 times between 12/18 at 06:00 and 12/13 at 15:00. 168 times the system closed relay 1 and then opened it about 2 minutes later. Maybe the generator ran, maybe it didn’t, but no voltage was delivered. On 12/15 the client started the generator and it produced voltage into the inverter system. On 12/18 I started the generator and it produced voltage. Why this generator start cycle kept recurring is a mystery to me. There may be a setting within the bowels of the menu system that I have overlooked that limits the start attempts and I will be investigating that. To me, navigating the Sunny Island menu system is like trying to remember the DOS command-line interface. I need something much more ergonomic. Thanks for all of your priceless knowledge. I feel like we are a little nerd family. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Sat Dec 19 08:35:04 2020 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2020 08:35:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote Alert and Bootstrapping on Sunny Island AC Coupled System-Follow up In-Reply-To: <3283babad91dbdfbedc64f1a954417a0@mail.gmail.com> References: <3283babad91dbdfbedc64f1a954417a0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <62A16950-7012-4FAB-A618-10C2A3593059@swnl.net> William, good morning. I live off grid w/ these things please feel free to contact me off list. Without knowing your familiarity w/ the SMASI, I may be repeating things you already know. Anytime the SOC is above 70% your frequency is shifted to reduce array input, (German engineers) so this is probably the most frustrating issues w/ the SIs. Beautiful sunny day at 73% little recharge, next day cloudy for a week starting w/ a BB that isn’t fully charged, customers & installers don’t like this too much. First; Anytime there is a generator fault one needs to clear that fault. This is found menu 540/2“Gen Ackn”. Also check that the gen in 540 01 is set to “auto”, if not then check menu 235/01 “Generator Start" default is “on". Menu # 235/02 “ Gn autoStr”, I will always increase the # of start attempts usually to 5or 6, default is 3. If the generator is running, charging batteries while there is good production from the array you will get “reverse current” if this happens, it will disable charging from genset which needs to be reset also in Menu 540/02. One can also In Menu "Generator control" 234 /13 GnRVPwr, Try setting this up to 150W Bottom line, off grid living that 500 menu is my go to for both my clients that have these things & myself. Clearing gen faults, Menu 520/01 to start battery EQing. Fla batteries, one can set voltage set points higher than the Bulk set point, but this leads to additional watering. For AGMs I will set this to my absorb voltage setpoints. If one uses this menu while its sunny this will prevent the Frequency shift and you will usually get a decent charge from the array. I usually do this once a week or so this time of year. This system has worked well in the past, sounds like the generator starter battery was the fault issue that cascaded into additional issues. I use a Victron BVM712 that enables me to watch the “House BB voltage” AND monitor the "generator starter BV". You can also remotely actuate the relay for alarms etc. Tump > On Dec 19, 2020, at 2:19 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Wrenches: > > I found some time to review the .evt and .log files from the primary Sunny Island inverter. > > Prior to 12/8/20 the system was running normally with a generator run averaging 6 hours about every other day. > > On 12/8 at 06:00 the system tried to start the generator. There was no indication the generator delivered voltage to the system. The system tried to start the generator 168 times between 12/18 at 06:00 and 12/13 at 15:00. 168 times the system closed relay 1 and then opened it about 2 minutes later. Maybe the generator ran, maybe it didn’t, but no voltage was delivered. On 12/15 the client started the generator and it produced voltage into the inverter system. On 12/18 I started the generator and it produced voltage. > > Why this generator start cycle kept recurring is a mystery to me. There may be a setting within the bowels of the menu system that I have overlooked that limits the start attempts and I will be investigating that. To me, navigating the Sunny Island menu system is like trying to remember the DOS command-line interface. I need something much more ergonomic. > > Thanks for all of your priceless knowledge. I feel like we are a little nerd family. > > William Miller > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Dec 19 09:14:56 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2020 09:14:56 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote Alert and Bootstrapping on Sunny Island AC Coupled System-Follow up In-Reply-To: <3283babad91dbdfbedc64f1a954417a0@mail.gmail.com> References: <3283babad91dbdfbedc64f1a954417a0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5c394a3e-1c73-6252-f566-48edc30b30a4@solarray.com> Little Nerd Family, that's great.  Back on Topic:  I'm also in the midst of trying to care for a Sunny Island setup we inherited a few years ago.  Tump's info is invaluable and also explains why my adopted step system couldn't keep its AGMs alive for more than 4 years. (curtail charge rate at 70% SOC?!?)   Our plan right now is to pull the Sunny Boy, replace it with a Schneider 600 v charge controller, and also either abandon auto gen start completely, or add a separate AGS controller.  We are also adding SImplifi batteries, so its not going to be happy with the SI settings anyway. Good luck, Papa Nerd, Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 12/19/20 2:19 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Wrenches: > > Thanks for all of your priceless knowledge.  I feel like we are a > little nerd family. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 17:33:36 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2020 15:33:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator tripping GFCI Message-ID: HI All, I have a client with a older Kohler 8-10kw generator, VFX 3648 stacked inverters, newer rolls batteries. its been installed and operating normally for 10+ years. Customer had to upgrade the house for code, which involved installing GFCI outlets and GFCI breakers. Since then the GFI outlets trip every time the generator starts but only after 3-30 minutes. They work normally on the inverters. And if you do a bypass/generator direct the GFI outlets don’t trip. The GFI breakers trip when the generator is about to turn off, not during warm down but say 30 minutes before it will turn off. So charging current is at the lowest. And again they all work normally on the inverters and all the rest of the charge cycle. Voltage is a bit high, around 254v-259v from the generator but it is the whole time and seems to stable voltage. But if the voltage was the issue the outlets would keep tripping. If it was too high for the breakers, why at the end and not the beginning? I’m thinking its possibly a control board in the generator that’s not working well. Can’t keep up with the PF for the inverters, etc. Buts its a new issue I’ve not run across. Any ideas? thanks jay peltz power From ray at solarray.com Sat Dec 19 19:10:17 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2020 19:10:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator tripping GFCI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is it possible that neutral is bonded to ground in the generator?  I've found lots of multi-bonded neutrals over the years, and had it cause all sorts of weirdness. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 12/19/20 5:33 PM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > I have a client with a older Kohler 8-10kw generator, VFX 3648 stacked inverters, newer rolls batteries. its been installed and operating normally for 10+ years. > > Customer had to upgrade the house for code, which involved installing GFCI outlets and GFCI breakers. > > Since then the GFI outlets trip every time the generator starts but only after 3-30 minutes. They work normally on the inverters. And if you do a bypass/generator direct the GFI outlets don’t trip. > > The GFI breakers trip when the generator is about to turn off, not during warm down but say 30 minutes before it will turn off. So charging current is at the lowest. And again they all work normally on the inverters and all the rest of the charge cycle. > > > Voltage is a bit high, around 254v-259v from the generator but it is the whole time and seems to stable voltage. But if the voltage was the issue the outlets would keep tripping. If it was too high for the breakers, why at the end and not the beginning? > > I’m thinking its possibly a control board in the generator that’s not working well. Can’t keep up with the PF for the inverters, etc. > > Buts its a new issue I’ve not run across. > > Any ideas? > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 20:33:43 2020 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2020 19:33:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator tripping GFCI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The way a GFCI operates is by comparing the line current and the neutral current inside the device. If some of the neutral current is returning through a ground circuit instead of the neutral the imbalance will trip the device. The generator neutral and the inverter neutral must have a common neutral-ground bond and only one! Your presentation indicates operational differences, multiple bonding points (two or more) can cause a neutral ground imbalance when load, source changes occur. The load-source changes can affect the tripping result. On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 5:23 PM jay wrote: > HI All, > > I have a client with a older Kohler 8-10kw generator, VFX 3648 stacked > inverters, newer rolls batteries. its been installed and operating normally > for 10+ years. > > Customer had to upgrade the house for code, which involved installing GFCI > outlets and GFCI breakers. > > Since then the GFI outlets trip every time the generator starts but only > after 3-30 minutes. They work normally on the inverters. And if you do a > bypass/generator direct the GFI outlets don’t trip. > > The GFI breakers trip when the generator is about to turn off, not during > warm down but say 30 minutes before it will turn off. So charging current > is at the lowest. And again they all work normally on the inverters and all > the rest of the charge cycle. > > > Voltage is a bit high, around 254v-259v from the generator but it is the > whole time and seems to stable voltage. But if the voltage was the issue > the outlets would keep tripping. If it was too high for the breakers, why > at the end and not the beginning? > > I’m thinking its possibly a control board in the generator that’s not > working well. Can’t keep up with the PF for the inverters, etc. > > Buts its a new issue I’ve not run across. > > Any ideas? > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Sat Dec 19 20:54:55 2020 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2020 17:54:55 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator tripping GFCI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0a57e740-4f93-a8d3-02fd-b9e80f636696@coveoregon.com> Jay, Agree with Ray that two neutral ground bonds can cause strange behavior. But the timing near the end of the charge cycle makes me wonder if the issue is related to one inverter shutting down the charger before the other. The VFX 3648 charger mode is a terrible load and will cause weird output wave forms on most generators, and when only one inverter is charging, the harmonics will show up on the neutral. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 12/19/2020 2:33 PM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > I have a client with a older Kohler 8-10kw generator, VFX 3648 stacked inverters, newer rolls batteries. its been installed and operating normally for 10+ years. > > Customer had to upgrade the house for code, which involved installing GFCI outlets and GFCI breakers. > > Since then the GFI outlets trip every time the generator starts but only after 3-30 minutes. They work normally on the inverters. And if you do a bypass/generator direct the GFI outlets don’t trip. > > The GFI breakers trip when the generator is about to turn off, not during warm down but say 30 minutes before it will turn off. So charging current is at the lowest. And again they all work normally on the inverters and all the rest of the charge cycle. > > > Voltage is a bit high, around 254v-259v from the generator but it is the whole time and seems to stable voltage. But if the voltage was the issue the outlets would keep tripping. If it was too high for the breakers, why at the end and not the beginning? > > I’m thinking its possibly a control board in the generator that’s not working well. Can’t keep up with the PF for the inverters, etc. > > Buts its a new issue I’ve not run across. > > Any ideas? > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 19:14:31 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2020 17:14:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator tripping GFCI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <188AE382-D758-493D-9777-497FBA1F81EC@gmail.com> Hi Ray I will have to triple check, but even if it’s yes. How does that explain the time differences? If it was a neutralground loop, then why not it tripping everything right away? That’s why I was thinking it’s related to the control board in the generator? Jay > On Dec 19, 2020, at 5:10 PM, Ray wrote: > > Is it possible that neutral is bonded to ground in the generator? I've found lots of multi-bonded neutrals over the years, and had it cause all sorts of weirdness. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > >> On 12/19/20 5:33 PM, jay wrote: >> HI All, >> >> I have a client with a older Kohler 8-10kw generator, VFX 3648 stacked inverters, newer rolls batteries. its been installed and operating normally for 10+ years. >> >> Customer had to upgrade the house for code, which involved installing GFCI outlets and GFCI breakers. >> >> Since then the GFI outlets trip every time the generator starts but only after 3-30 minutes. They work normally on the inverters. And if you do a bypass/generator direct the GFI outlets don’t trip. >> >> The GFI breakers trip when the generator is about to turn off, not during warm down but say 30 minutes before it will turn off. So charging current is at the lowest. And again they all work normally on the inverters and all the rest of the charge cycle. >> >> >> Voltage is a bit high, around 254v-259v from the generator but it is the whole time and seems to stable voltage. But if the voltage was the issue the outlets would keep tripping. If it was too high for the breakers, why at the end and not the beginning? >> >> I’m thinking its possibly a control board in the generator that’s not working well. Can’t keep up with the PF for the inverters, etc. >> >> Buts its a new issue I’ve not run across. >> >> Any ideas? >> >> thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From william at millersolar.com Sat Dec 19 21:00:52 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2020 18:00:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator tripping GFCI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Friends: I have seen THD on the voltage waveform trip GFIs and AFCIs. The case where this happened was during gen run periods. AC to DC converters can be brutal in regards to generating distortion and sending it to loads. I am out in the shop away from the manuals, but check if these FX inverters can be programmed for Support mode on the gen input. This may knock THD back to acceptable levels, if indeed this is the cause. Best of luck. William Miller www.millersolar.com > On Dec 19, 2020, at 5:33 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > >  > The way a GFCI operates is by comparing the line current and the neutral current inside the device. If some of the neutral current is returning through a ground circuit instead of the neutral the imbalance will trip the device. The generator neutral and the inverter neutral must have a common neutral-ground bond and only one! > Your presentation indicates operational differences, multiple bonding points (two or more) can cause a neutral ground imbalance when load, source changes occur. The load-source changes can affect the tripping result. > >> On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 5:23 PM jay wrote: >> HI All, >> >> I have a client with a older Kohler 8-10kw generator, VFX 3648 stacked inverters, newer rolls batteries. its been installed and operating normally for 10+ years. >> >> Customer had to upgrade the house for code, which involved installing GFCI outlets and GFCI breakers. >> >> Since then the GFI outlets trip every time the generator starts but only after 3-30 minutes. They work normally on the inverters. And if you do a bypass/generator direct the GFI outlets don’t trip. >> >> The GFI breakers trip when the generator is about to turn off, not during warm down but say 30 minutes before it will turn off. So charging current is at the lowest. And again they all work normally on the inverters and all the rest of the charge cycle. >> >> >> Voltage is a bit high, around 254v-259v from the generator but it is the whole time and seems to stable voltage. But if the voltage was the issue the outlets would keep tripping. If it was too high for the breakers, why at the end and not the beginning? >> >> I’m thinking its possibly a control board in the generator that’s not working well. Can’t keep up with the PF for the inverters, etc. >> >> Buts its a new issue I’ve not run across. >> >> Any ideas? >> >> thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Sat Dec 19 22:37:06 2020 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2020 19:37:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator tripping GFCI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It might be worth checking the brushes if it is an older unit. Chris Worcester chris at solarwindworks.com530-448-9692Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9. -------- Original message --------From: William Miller Date: 12/19/20 6:30 PM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] generator tripping GFCI Friends:I have seen THD on the voltage waveform trip GFIs and AFCIs. The case where this happened was during gen run periods. AC to DC converters can be brutal in regards to generating distortion and sending it to loads. I am out in the shop away from the manuals, but check if these FX inverters can be programmed for Support mode on the gen input. This may knock THD back to acceptable levels, if indeed this is the cause. Best of luck. William Millerwww.millersolar.comOn Dec 19, 2020, at 5:33 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote:The way a GFCI operates is by comparing the line current and the neutral current inside the device.  If some of the neutral current is returning through a ground circuit instead of the neutral the imbalance will trip the device.  The generator neutral and the inverter neutral must have a common neutral-ground bond and only one!  Your presentation indicates operational differences, multiple bonding points (two or more) can cause a neutral ground imbalance when load, source changes occur.  The load-source changes can affect the tripping result.    On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 5:23 PM jay wrote:HI All, I have a client with a older Kohler 8-10kw generator, VFX 3648 stacked inverters, newer rolls batteries. its been installed and operating normally for 10+ years. Customer had to upgrade the house for code, which involved installing GFCI outlets and GFCI breakers.  Since then the  GFI outlets trip every time the generator starts but only after 3-30 minutes.   They work normally on the inverters. And if you do a bypass/generator direct the GFI outlets don’t trip. The GFI breakers trip when the generator is about to turn off, not during warm down but say 30 minutes before it will turn off.  So charging current is at the lowest. And again they all work normally on the inverters and all the rest of the charge cycle. Voltage is a bit high, around 254v-259v from the generator but it is the whole time and seems to stable voltage. But if the voltage was the issue the outlets would keep tripping.  If it was too high for the breakers, why at the end and not the beginning? I’m thinking its possibly a control board in the generator that’s not working well.  Can’t keep up with the PF for the inverters, etc.  Buts its a new issue I’ve not run across. Any ideas? thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Dec 20 11:52:25 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2020 08:52:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator tripping GFCI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5e9be5a58629cc86a724a3510a2b4443@127.0.0.1> One way to troubleshoot this is by elimination. The genset would be a start. The GFCI itself. I have had to switch from the contractor grade GFCI to a quality make in new construction. Since this is new I would make sure on the AC panel, critical loads like the house pump or fire pumps and refrigerator/ freezer were NOT put on GFCI. I have seen some very bad things happen from this circuit that have nothing to do with ground faults. The same for AFCI or my guaranteed income source from grid-tie inverters. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 15:33:36 -0700, jay wrote: > HI All, > > I have a client with a older Kohler 8-10kw generator, VFX 3648 stacked > inverters, newer rolls batteries. its been installed and operating normally > for 10+ years. > > Customer had to upgrade the house for code, which involved installing GFCI > outlets and GFCI breakers. > > Since then the GFI outlets trip every time the generator starts but only > after 3-30 minutes. They work normally on the inverters. And if you do a > bypass/generator direct the GFI outlets don't trip. > > The GFI breakers trip when the generator is about to turn off, not during > warm down but say 30 minutes before it will turn off. So charging current > is at the lowest. And again they all work normally on the inverters and all > the rest of the charge cycle. > > > Voltage is a bit high, around 254v-259v from the generator but it is the > whole time and seems to stable voltage. But if the voltage was the issue > the outlets would keep tripping. If it was too high for the breakers, why > at the end and not the beginning? > > I'm thinking its possibly a control board in the generator that's not > working well. Can't keep up with the PF for the inverters, etc. > > Buts its a new issue I've not run across. > > Any ideas? > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 09:08:33 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2020 07:08:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator tripping GFCI In-Reply-To: <20201220073114.07F63105CE1@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20201220073114.07F63105CE1@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Thanks all for the comments and ideas. To recap, the reason I don’t think its in the wiring or loads is that everything is normal no tripping if inverter bypass or inverters running normally. This says to me that it can’t be a loose neutral, or wires or some odd loads etc. And no additional loads when the generator is on. I don’t think its the neutral/ground dual bond issue as I would think that would cause the tripping but its not. I will check again. Which leads me into the inverter/generator interface. Yes they are older inverters but working normally I don’t think there are issues inside the inverters or the client would see at least periodic tripping of things, but none occur. I have seen generators not being able to handle the poor PF from the inverter setting up similar kinds of things. Certain appliances not operating normally, LED lights having odd behaviors etc. Again, generator or inverter is all fine, but while battery charging these things are happening. The older VFX do not have the Radian/FXR special generator waveform smoothing setting. Which leads me to the following next steps. 1. check again for ground/neutral bonds at the generator. 2. have them use another good quality generator as a test. Any other tests folks would have me run? thanks jay > On Dec 19, 2020, at 8:37 PM, Chris Worcester wrote: > > It might be worth checking the brushes if it is an older unit. > > > > Chris Worcester > chris at solarwindworks.com > 530-448-9692 > > Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9. > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: William Miller > Date: 12/19/20 6:30 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] generator tripping GFCI > > Friends: > > I have seen THD on the voltage waveform trip GFIs and AFCIs. The case where this happened was during gen run periods. AC to DC converters can be brutal in regards to generating distortion and sending it to loads. > > I am out in the shop away from the manuals, but check if these FX inverters can be programmed for Support mode on the gen input. This may knock THD back to acceptable levels, if indeed this is the cause. > > Best of luck. > > William Miller > www.millersolar.com > >> On Dec 19, 2020, at 5:33 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: >> >>  >> The way a GFCI operates is by comparing the line current and the neutral current inside the device. If some of the neutral current is returning through a ground circuit instead of the neutral the imbalance will trip the device. The generator neutral and the inverter neutral must have a common neutral-ground bond and only one! >> Your presentation indicates operational differences, multiple bonding points (two or more) can cause a neutral ground imbalance when load, source changes occur. The load-source changes can affect the tripping result. >> >> On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 5:23 PM jay > wrote: >> HI All, >> >> I have a client with a older Kohler 8-10kw generator, VFX 3648 stacked inverters, newer rolls batteries. its been installed and operating normally for 10+ years. >> >> Customer had to upgrade the house for code, which involved installing GFCI outlets and GFCI breakers. >> >> Since then the GFI outlets trip every time the generator starts but only after 3-30 minutes. They work normally on the inverters. And if you do a bypass/generator direct the GFI outlets don’t trip. >> >> The GFI breakers trip when the generator is about to turn off, not during warm down but say 30 minutes before it will turn off. So charging current is at the lowest. And again they all work normally on the inverters and all the rest of the charge cycle. >> >> >> Voltage is a bit high, around 254v-259v from the generator but it is the whole time and seems to stable voltage. But if the voltage was the issue the outlets would keep tripping. If it was too high for the breakers, why at the end and not the beginning? >> >> I’m thinking its possibly a control board in the generator that’s not working well. Can’t keep up with the PF for the inverters, etc. >> >> Buts its a new issue I’ve not run across. >> >> Any ideas? >> >> thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Dec 20 12:23:44 2020 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2020 12:23:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator tripping GFCI In-Reply-To: <5e9be5a58629cc86a724a3510a2b4443@127.0.0.1> References: <5e9be5a58629cc86a724a3510a2b4443@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <8eb70073-f955-0c21-1dd1-873492abf1ba@solarray.com> I second Dave's comment on trying different GFCIs.  Definitely had some that wouldn't work correctly with generator/ inverter systems. I'd take 2 or 3 other choices. Otherwise your check list looks like the way to proceed.  We always love to hear back what you find. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 Its going to be a Nerd Family Christmas.... On 12/20/20 11:52 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > One way to troubleshoot this is by elimination. The genset would be a start. The GFCI itself. I have had to switch from the contractor grade GFCI to a quality make in new construction. > > Since this is new I would make sure on the AC panel, critical loads like the house pump or fire pumps and refrigerator/ freezer were*not* put on GFCI. I have seen some very bad things happen from this circuit that have nothing to do with ground faults. The same for AFCI or my guaranteed income source from grid-tie inverters. > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 12:16:54 2020 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2020 10:16:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator tripping GFCI In-Reply-To: <5e9be5a58629cc86a724a3510a2b4443@127.0.0.1> References: <5e9be5a58629cc86a724a3510a2b4443@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <38DE6CC7-79A1-4F41-81B2-999DBC4D0611@gmail.com> Hi Dave I’ve already suggested that. However the house hasn’t finished final sign off due to C19 and gross incompetence from the county process, so it’s not possible, yet. It’s entirely possible that at least part of the issue could be poor quality GFCI or good quality and overly sensitive. I’ve already suggested changing a few of the GFCI to different brands to see if this will fix the issue. Even if the issue is some basic problem with generator output, harmonics etc. And possibly trying this for the breakers but they are damn expensive and again odd they trip at the end and the outlets at the beginning. I’ll have to wait for the loaner generator to show up and then I’ll have more data to share Thanks Jay > On Dec 20, 2020, at 9:52 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > >  > One way to troubleshoot this is by elimination. The genset would be a start. The GFCI itself. I have had to switch from the contractor grade GFCI to a quality make in new construction. > > Since this is new I would make sure on the AC panel, critical loads like the house pump or fire pumps and refrigerator/ freezer were not put on GFCI. I have seen some very bad things happen from this circuit that have nothing to do with ground faults. The same for AFCI or my guaranteed income source from grid-tie inverters. > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 15:33:36 -0700, jay wrote: > > HI All, > > > > I have a client with a older Kohler 8-10kw generator, VFX 3648 stacked > > inverters, newer rolls batteries. its been installed and operating normally > > for 10+ years. > > > > Customer had to upgrade the house for code, which involved installing GFCI > > outlets and GFCI breakers. > > > > Since then the GFI outlets trip every time the generator starts but only > > after 3-30 minutes. They work normally on the inverters. And if you do a > > bypass/generator direct the GFI outlets don’t trip. > > > > The GFI breakers trip when the generator is about to turn off, not during > > warm down but say 30 minutes before it will turn off. So charging current > > is at the lowest. And again they all work normally on the inverters and all > > the rest of the charge cycle. > > > > > > Voltage is a bit high, around 254v-259v from the generator but it is the > > whole time and seems to stable voltage. But if the voltage was the issue > > the outlets would keep tripping. If it was too high for the breakers, why > > at the end and not the beginning? > > > > I’m thinking its possibly a control board in the generator that’s not > > working well. Can’t keep up with the PF for the inverters, etc. > > > > Buts its a new issue I’ve not run across. > > > > Any ideas? > > > > thanks > > > > jay > > > > peltz power > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 06:32:55 2020 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2020 06:32:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator tripping GFCI In-Reply-To: <38DE6CC7-79A1-4F41-81B2-999DBC4D0611@gmail.com> References: <5e9be5a58629cc86a724a3510a2b4443@127.0.0.1> <38DE6CC7-79A1-4F41-81B2-999DBC4D0611@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, Don’t forget to check at the inverter. As you probably know, VFXs come with a ground-neutral bonding jumper at the AC terminals on the unit. If this issue is not happening in bypass mode or normal inverter mode without Gen input, then it could be possible that there is a bond both at generator and at AC terminals of the unit. You’ve probably thought of this, but worth a check. Best, Chris On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 10:03 PM Jay wrote: > Hi Dave > > I’ve already suggested that. However the house hasn’t finished final sign > off due to C19 and gross incompetence from the county process, so it’s not > possible, yet. > > It’s entirely possible that at least part of the issue could be poor > quality GFCI or good quality and overly sensitive. > > I’ve already suggested changing a few of the GFCI to different brands to > see if this will fix the issue. Even if the issue is some basic problem > with generator output, harmonics etc. > > And possibly trying this for the breakers but they are damn expensive and > again odd they trip at the end and the outlets at the beginning. > > I’ll have to wait for the loaner generator to show up and then I’ll have > more data to share > > Thanks > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 20, 2020, at 9:52 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > > > >  > > One way to troubleshoot this is by elimination. The genset would be a > start. The GFCI itself. I have had to switch from the contractor grade GFCI > to a quality make in new construction. > > > > Since this is new I would make sure on the AC panel, critical loads > like the house pump or fire pumps and refrigerator/ freezer were not put on > GFCI. I have seen some very bad things happen from this circuit that have > nothing to do with ground faults. The same for AFCI or my guaranteed income > source from grid-tie inverters. > > > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > > text 209 813 0060 > > > > On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 15:33:36 -0700, jay wrote: > > > HI All, > > > > > > I have a client with a older Kohler 8-10kw generator, VFX 3648 stacked > > > inverters, newer rolls batteries. its been installed and operating > normally > > > for 10+ years. > > > > > > Customer had to upgrade the house for code, which involved installing > GFCI > > > outlets and GFCI breakers. > > > > > > Since then the GFI outlets trip every time the generator starts but > only > > > after 3-30 minutes. They work normally on the inverters. And if you > do a > > > bypass/generator direct the GFI outlets don’t trip. > > > > > > The GFI breakers trip when the generator is about to turn off, not > during > > > warm down but say 30 minutes before it will turn off. So charging > current > > > is at the lowest. And again they all work normally on the inverters > and all > > > the rest of the charge cycle. > > > > > > > > > Voltage is a bit high, around 254v-259v from the generator but it is > the > > > whole time and seems to stable voltage. But if the voltage was the > issue > > > the outlets would keep tripping. If it was too high for the breakers, > why > > > at the end and not the beginning? > > > > > > I’m thinking its possibly a control board in the generator that’s not > > > working well. Can’t keep up with the PF for the inverters, etc. > > > > > > Buts its a new issue I’ve not run across. > > > > > > Any ideas? > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > jay > > > > > > peltz power > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the > > > other: > > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Dec 29 16:38:45 2020 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 13:38:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex ST2500 Needed Message-ID: <3f12bd0bf025c4ae92bd90541501aabd@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I have a friend and former employee who has a Xantrex ST 2500 that is failing (I think the entire model number is something like XR ST2500). We’d like to try and eke a few more years out of the system. Does anyone have one laying around they’d be willing to part with? Thanks in advance… William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Dec 31 11:18:25 2020 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 08:18:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery switch 1, 2 or both for 65VDC Message-ID: <1f926b1d59890f272d6701252caa4d7b@127.0.0.1> I can't find a Battery switch for 1, 2 or both for 65VDC. In the past I did this with (2) 125vdc 250adc disco's in a metal box. Anyone seen one of these? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Thu Dec 31 13:20:57 2020 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 10:20:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wireless float switch control Message-ID: <1C4255AB-9F53-4F81-85B4-A9929409166F@me.com> Greetings Wrenches, I’ve mostly been trying to get away from pumping systems but decided to take on a small solar direct Grundfos system for a friend’s mother that lives on my road. The well and ideal spot for the array sits about 1000’ away from the tanks and it’s the typical scenario of switching over an existing setup where all the plumbing lines have been buried for many years so there is no opportunity to bury a conduit or cable for the float switch conductors. I’m aware of the reverse action pressure switch strategy but do not want to pressure the fill lines for multiple reasons. Also, the existing float switch wires do not run all the way to the well head either even if I did want to rework those and invert the logic with another relay elsewhere. For obvious reasons I can’t reassign the old power conductors to the pump either since I need to keep those in place to use with the IO101 as backup. I’ve installed many dozens of these systems over the years and have always found a way around it but this job really begs for some sort of wireless solution. I’ve been off the Wrenches list for 10 years now so there are many threads I’ve not seen and figured maybe the group has come up with a solution strategy for these scenarios by now? Obviously the age of Wifi, Bluetooth etc has brought us many wireless solutions that did not exist years ago so I’m hopeful we now have an answer to these headaches? Even if I needed to add a small battery system to power it. Also just want to say how much I appreciate this list. I rejoined a few weeks ago after 10 years off of it and it is so great to see all the familiar technicians here. Thank you to Michael and all of you, new and old, for being part of the good fight to strive for quality and integrity in this passion we all share. The planet needs us more than ever and I feel fortunate for every one of you. This list is an incredible resource! Hope all of you have a great last few hours of 2020 and a prosperous 2021! Nick A Lucchese